Dream Team League (Discussion) [Archive] - Page 32

Tropico

05-24-2005, 08:19 AM

even for next season, I'd say that Onslaughts early version is not too uber. specially because he can only do so much before he would have to recharge.f

1. name my hypocricies
2. name my exceptions

Wow! I just named one: Onslaught. Don't you remember the hissy fit you threw and how you threatened to quit if you didn't get Onslaught? An exception was made to actually work out a weakened character and what powers he did or didn't have. This same example serves to show that your a hypocrite for complaining on numerous ocassion about King Thor. Complaints that, ironically, are the complaints people voiced when you got Onslaught.

You berate other people for not paticipating, yet you choose to forget those that times that you haven't done a write up or disguise it as "I'm not gonna do a write up cuz that person is one of the favorites and I'm not".

Your posts are your right for an opinion, other people's "right to an opinion" are either bull or whining.

Remember "Total Destruction"? You upgraded Mountjoy, a reg, to a Med. No one slapped your wrist. Wouldn't you call that an exception? It might be in Mountjoy's character to posses other people, but the rules clearly state that no category bumping is allowed. There was a recent addendum to the rules in which you can now trade power levels in prep time but Total Destruction happened before that.

Anyway, I'm wasting my time here. You won't acknowledge any of these things I've written, it's your nature. You're a good DTL member, AS; if you were a little more self aware you could be a great one, IMO.

TheCorpulent1

05-24-2005, 09:29 AM

Thats why i try to not post durring the mornings... I'm a groutch and only half read before i step in an complain

as for corp, you've said on many occations lately that she should be medium because you play like so.

That would mean(by the way your going about it) that i can have stryfe as a reg as long as i play like so.

as for king thor, i've yet to say anything against him.
If you only half-read things, that makes a lot of sense because you don't seem to be understanding what I'm typing. You're mixing up the cause and effect. I didn't say she should be a medium because I play her that way. I said that I played her as a medium (effect) because that's what I thought she was (cause). That's totally different from your using Stryfe, a guy whom you know is an uber, as a medium. Once I learned Thena was an uber, I let her get bumped up to uber even though it was detrimental to my team. What more do you want me to do, nail myself to a cross? I admitted you were right about Thena and now you're just being obnoxious to me for no reason.

When you pretty much accused me of somehow influencing JB to accept too ubers, I assumed you were talking about when I lobbied for King Thor since he was my first too uber. If I was mistaken, I apologize. But then again, if it's not that I can't think of what it is that I did to "make" JB accept too ubers based on your vague comment.

AnnoyingSilence

05-24-2005, 02:07 PM

Wow! I just named one: Onslaught. Don't you remember the hissy fit you threw and how you threatened to quit if you didn't get Onslaught? An exception was made to actually work out a weakened character and what powers he did or didn't have. This same example serves to show that your a hypocrite for complaining on numerous ocassion about King Thor. Complaints that, ironically, are the complaints people voiced when you got Onslaught.
Yet again, I've not said anything about King Thor
You berate other people for not paticipating, yet you choose to forget those that times that you haven't done a write up or disguise it as "I'm not gonna do a write up cuz that person is one of the favorites and I'm not".
The only times i can remember not doing a write-up is in protest of lossing the week before(Eliyja for instance)
Your posts are your right for an opinion, other people's "right to an opinion" are either bull or whining.
Your statement was the first one i called Bull
Remember "Total Destruction"? You upgraded Mountjoy, a reg, to a Med. No one slapped your wrist. Wouldn't you call that an exception? It might be in Mountjoy's character to posses other people, but the rules clearly state that no category bumping is allowed. There was a recent addendum to the rules in which you can now trade power levels in prep time but Total Destruction happened before that.
I upgraded MountJoy from a Med to an uber. No one could slap my wrist.
1. it was within the rules
2. my opponenet didn't do a writeup(not an exception when you go by the rules)
The rule as i know it says you can upgrade any character, as long as you don't have 2 ubers of the same universe
Anyway, I'm wasting my time here. You won't acknowledge any of these things I've written, it's your nature. You're a good DTL member, AS; if you were a little more self aware you could be a great one, IMO.Thats so true:D. Its in my nature to hate'cha:D

AnnoyingSilence

05-24-2005, 02:13 PM

When you pretty much accused me of somehow influencing JB to accept too ubers, I assumed you were talking about when I lobbied for King Thor since he was my first too uber. If I was mistaken, I apologize. But then again, if it's not that I can't think of what it is that I did to "make" JB accept too ubers based on your vague comment.I don't remember accussing you or anyone of starting the toouber thing and it is the RARE character that i've actually protested against in uber standings

wiegeabo

05-25-2005, 03:11 PM

Yeah, two classes down, one to go. :D
Then all I have to do during the summer is work full time.

.........

Now I've made myself sad :(

Ahura Mazda

05-25-2005, 06:25 PM

05-25-2005, 07:28 PM

XFanTim

05-26-2005, 01:26 AM

I have been reading the infinty watch series and I really have to question Drak. For me he is nothing more then a caped, flying savage Hulk at a time when savage Hulk was not around. It really gets me because I find nothing original about him.

Sorry, it was irking me.
The similarities are really superficial. Both are strong and green and dumb. That's about where the similarities end. Whereas Hulk is all about rage, Drax was portrayed more as a big kid who mostly wants to play. There's none of this "the madder he gets, the stronger he gets" stuff. There are also no warring personalities like there are with Hulk and Banner. And not only are their histories drastically different (as X points out), but the way they were used in the stories was totally different. Hulk seemed to mostly just want people to leave him alone, whereas Drax didn't seem to be a loner by any means -- he'd rather spend time with his friends on the Watch. Plus, like I said, Hulk had a second life as Bruce Banner, whereas Drax was only Drax.

Even the issue that most played up their similarities, where Drax fought Hulk and Hulk kept commenting that Drax reminded him of himself, had a poignant ending with Drax that would never have worked for Hulk. (spoilered for those who might want to find the issue and read it) Drax played beautiful music on the saxaphone, while Moondragon wept because she knew it meant her father was still alive in there somewhere.

Ahura Mazda

05-26-2005, 02:27 AM

I get your guy's points. But for me looking at his battle with Thor he would get more powerful as he tapped more and more into the power gem....what does that remind me of.

I do however get the attitude difference. With regard to the dual identity, wasn't drax Henry resurrected so there you go. The origin is different of course.

I never said he was the same but I just think he was created as an answer to the absence of savage Hulk...of course, I am not experts like you guys but I do see very big similarities.

XFanTim

05-26-2005, 04:04 AM

XFanTim

05-26-2005, 04:38 AM

Hmm... I think I can state my thoughts a little more clearly than that. Let me put it like this.

Drax does bear a strong resemblance to the Hulk in terms of appearance, power, and intelligence level. It's quite possible that that resemblance was deliberate (although the character of Drax had already had existed in a less Hulk-like form for some time before that). But tons of comic characters resemble Hulk as far as being big, strong, and dumb are concerned. There's no real reason to single Drax out.

Moreover, all the things that actually make Hulk an interesting character -- the whole internal struggle between his different personalities (even when it was just Savage Hulk and Banner), the fact that he's a physical manifestation of Banner's rage, the whole "people hate what they don't understand" angle -- are all totally absent in Drax.

Likewise, the things that make Drax a likeable character (to me, at least), are absent in the Hulk, if for no other reason than that Drax was appearing in a team book and Hulk was not. One of the reasons I liked Infinity Watch was because of the humorous interplay between the characters. Drax's stupidity, for instance, was funny not so much in and of itself, but because the other characters were all so visibly exasperated by it. Also there were the rare poinant moments brought on by the fact that everyone else on the team knows what Drax once was, except of course for Drax himself. In contrast, Hulk's stupidity serves mainly to allow him to cause serious destruction without becoming an unlikeable villain (since he truly doesn't know any better), and to underscore the fact that the humans who are trying to destroy him are really the villains, for not using their superior intelligence to try to understand him instead.

At any rate, what I'm trying to say is while they're similar in terms of powers and appearance (and possibly deliberately so), those aspects that make them good characters are actually the ones where they differ most.

Of course, some people (and I don't mean you, Ahura) think the reason Hulk's such a great character is just because he's "the strongest one there is", and thus devote enormous amounts of time and energy to trying to explain why obviously superior characters couldn't possibly beat him. But that's a topic for a different (and much stupider) thread.

05-26-2005, 01:56 PM

Did he ever actually appear to get stronger from the Gem? He seemed pretty consistently strong to me -- seemed more like the Gem just gave him unlimited endurance. Not that I know of him ever getting tired out before it, but Moondragon at least makes some claim about Drax being able to keep going forever thanks to the Gem when he was fighting Thor during Infinity Crusade (not sure if that's the fight you're referring to).

And with regard to the dual identity thing, Drax doesn't transform between two different forms, nor is Arthur Douglas's persona ever dominant -- at most there seemed to be trace remnants of it buried in his psyche. There's certainly not the internal conflict that defines the relationship between Hulk and Banner.

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the dumb Drax was modeled after the Hulk, but I don't think he's filling the same niche. And even if he was based on Hulk, so what? There are lots of characters who are clearly inspired by Superman, or Batman, or for that matter, the Hulk. Ultimately, it's just a question of whether you like how the character is used or not. Personally, I kind of liked Drax. If you don't, there's nothing wrong with that -- but I don't think one character being similar to another makes the character bad in and of itself.

Besides, there's a million big dumb bruisers in comics -- make Drax blue and he'd be no more Hulk-like than all the rest of them.

Drax does get more powerful from the gem, actually. It's slow, as he's not actively using it, he's doing it on a subconscious level. Don't know why he'd need it, smart Drax used to destroy stars with pure strength, small ones but still, and one shot planets. Dumb Drax, god, perfectly capable of going toe to toe with The Silver Surfer, plunging into giant stars, beating the living **** out of The Hulk, and the like. Only time I've ever seen Drax beaten is by Thanos. Also, in The Guardians of the Galaxy timeline, Cuchulain The Irish Wolfhound stalemated Drax in one of the best comic fights, ever. You know, Drax at his best potrayals once one punched The Champion of The Universe. The Champion had been fighting The Surfer for a while, then Drax waltzed in, decked The Champion once, and that was it. Drax wasn't even serious, he started to lecture the on the ground Champion. :D

05-26-2005, 01:56 PM

By the way, great stuff Tim. :up:

XFanTim

05-26-2005, 03:16 PM

Thanks :)

Ahura Mazda

05-27-2005, 10:52 AM

Thnak you for the response and it was a very good one. Quite informative. My problem with the whole thing is that for me, it seems the Hulk gets played down quite a bit. I do agree that the most interesting part about him was the inner conflict but he also captured my attention as a child because of his power. For me, the power is gone or at least sidelinned relative to other characters. I disliked quite a bit the Bruce Jones run.

The Hulk was the standard and now is just a strong bruiser. That is sad for me but just because he was a favourite character of mine.

The thing about Drax, and this is in his stupid carnation, he kept making me think of the Hulk. And well given I did not like the length the similarities went.

TheCorpulent1

05-27-2005, 01:46 PM

Wasn't the Hulk always basically the strongest bruiser? He still seems to have to that reputation intact, and with Peter David writing the comics now he should regain whatever notoriety he's lost. David's already started showing the Hulk as basically an unstoppable physical force.

Nightwing.

05-27-2005, 02:14 PM

AnnoyingSilence

05-28-2005, 01:48 AM

O, Btw, Onslaught was not thee first exception. i do remember using a different character that was allowed in as leverage

AnnoyingSilence

05-28-2005, 01:58 AM

That's his wife's job,.. he's suppose to be the one making stupid comments and getting "I'm going to kill you" looks from his wife :D I did. I learned that it's true when they say never tell your wife you understand how she feels,.. even in joking. I've never seen my wife give me such an evil look. I appaulogized for being so stupid imediately.Even if i do say something stupid(which, ofcourse i do), I usually don't apologize or back down(I'd like to point out that saying something stupid and being wrong are totally different).

when you tell someone you understand there... w/e. its usually out of sympathy. growwing up with no attention paid towards me, I'm very rarely the one who has any sort of lovable feed back that would make someone feel better.

Most of the time my response can be narrowed to 3 comments:

"Get over it"
"O yea? So what are you going to do about it?"
"So."

JewishHobbit

05-28-2005, 07:40 AM

Most of the time my response can be narrowed to 3 comments:

"Get over it"
"O yea? So what are you going to do about it?"
"So."

You forgot "Comb your Hair." You like using that one a lot too.

TheCorpulent1

05-28-2005, 03:54 PM

I have another question. Do characters remember strategies and stuff from previous matches to the extent that they could remember an effective strategy from one match and use it again during another match?

Also, would my starters one week remember stuff that starters from another week did? Like, say Proctor's in two matches. He fights alongside Aquaman in one match and Aquaman shows him something. Would he remember that in another match when Aquaman's not present, or would that be considered "using a non-starter's resources"?

Am I the only one who thinks the (for lack of a better term) "DTL continuity" rules should be delineated a little clearer before next season? :(

JewishHobbit

05-28-2005, 04:03 PM

TheCorpulent1

05-28-2005, 04:21 PM

Ok, I just wanted to be sure.

Also just to be sure: The Destroyer armor was, in the end, allowed as one of Odin and King Thor's resources and IS allowed to be used in battle, correct? I did a search and Guyver and Ahura used it in battle indirectly by having Leejah copy its powers, which is basically the same as using the armor itself. If that changed without my knowing, let me know now.

AnnoyingSilence

05-29-2005, 02:42 AM

I have another question. Do characters remember strategies and stuff from previous matches to the extent that they could remember an effective strategy from one match and use it again during another match?
I would have to say that its up to you. you come up with the strategies anyway and we are using our stories as if they flowwed together week to week
Also, would my starters one week remember stuff that starters from another week did? Like, say Proctor's in two matches. He fights alongside Aquaman in one match and Aquaman shows him something. Would he remember that in another match when Aquaman's not present, or would that be considered "using a non-starter's resources"?
Information can be transferred week to week. So if you tell him something, its legal. But if yo give him something, not legal.
Am I the only one who thinks the (for lack of a better term) "DTL continuity" rules should be delineated a little clearer before next season? :([b]what is the "DTL Continuity" rule?

And Btw, I like the sig, that guy seems pretty interesting.

TheCorpulent1

05-29-2005, 02:55 AM

Basically, stuff along the lines of what I was asking. What characters are allowed to remember, etc., etc.

The Leaguer

05-29-2005, 02:59 AM

I think they're allowed to remember everything save death.

Johnny Blaze

05-29-2005, 02:04 PM

Yeah, they can remember everything except the deaths that come in the battles from week to week. For instance, I've had Timazo read through Kang's files on time travel and what not to get more proficient and creative in his use of his time powers.

And, yes, the Destroyer armor can be used in battle.

TheCorpulent1

05-29-2005, 02:07 PM

Ok, I was mostly concerned about Hourman using Antarctic Vibranium, since he learned about it by reading Hank's experiences with his time vision in another match. I didn't want to accidentally invalidate my write-up.

Johnny Blaze

05-29-2005, 02:19 PM

Yeah, knowledge is cool, but as far as items and the like go, the character whose item(s) you are using must be present in your lineup that week. For instance, you wouldn't be able to use the Pym's tech without Hank present, I wouldn't be able to use the Batman's tech if he wasn't in my lineup, etc.

But, I figure you already know that, so I guess it's a pointless post. :o

The Leaguer

05-29-2005, 02:29 PM

Post-whore. :mad:

JewishHobbit

05-29-2005, 02:36 PM

As apposed to Pre-whore?

The Leaguer

05-29-2005, 03:09 PM

Yeah, I mean, there's no way JB is pre-whore. :D

JewishHobbit

05-29-2005, 03:10 PM

But of coarse if he were post-whore that would mean he's changed his ways and is now going to route of chastity!

The Leaguer

05-29-2005, 03:12 PM

No, it means he's crossed the "whore" threshold. Sort of like "pre-op" and "post-op."

JewishHobbit

05-29-2005, 03:22 PM

So you're saying he's still a whore then? As in not "after done being a whore" but rather "after he's began whoring"? Correct?

JewishHobbit

05-29-2005, 03:28 PM

Okay, now I don't remember. For those of us who are loosing characters who are Too Uber next season,... how are we filling them? Are we just dropping and picking up or is there going to be some kind of draft? I'm hoping just dropping/picking up as that would be quicker and with less grief I think. All that's needed is a due date and after that date that part's done.

The Leaguer

05-29-2005, 03:45 PM

So you're saying he's still a whore then? As in not "after done being a whore" but rather "after he's began whoring"? Correct?

Correct!

TheCorpulent1

05-29-2005, 03:54 PM

XFanTim

05-31-2005, 04:27 AM

So can my characters learn about the battle of Endor by, um, watching Return of the Jedi?

JewishHobbit

05-31-2005, 06:20 AM

Yeah, cause I'm sure jsut about every character in this has access to a dvd player, or heck a VHS player, or pirated cpu copies, or even a movie theator :)

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 08:17 AM

Meh if you're actually AT the battle of endor then how could you watch a recording of it happening before it actually happened:confused:

Ahura Mazda

05-31-2005, 08:35 AM

Meh if you're actually AT the battle of endor then how could you watch a recording of it happening before it actually happened:confused:

That is actually a very good point. The only thing that sucks is that we cannot participate in it because of me :(

By the way, was there not a Marvel Star Wars comic and if so how the hell could any comic characters see a movie about it. Its not like Captain America could watch the movie Spiderman to learn about him.

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 08:40 AM

The only thing that sucks is that we cannot participate in it because of me :(

.

Yeah well those are the breaks, I could have NOT gone to Amsterdam and done the write up. Gee let me think.....HELL NO

I wouldn't trade my Amsterdamage experience for a place in the DTL final EVER!!!!!!!:o

Ahura Mazda

05-31-2005, 08:52 AM

Yeah well those are the breaks, I could have NOT gone to Amsterdam and done the write up. Gee let me think.....HELL NO

I wouldn't trade my Amsterdamage experience for a place in the DTL final EVER!!!!!!!:o

Trust me if you would suggest you would have I would think you are allot crazier then I imaginned. :p

Real life always has to take precedence over online life. Especially when real life involves quite a bit of fun ;)

XFanTim

05-31-2005, 10:08 AM

Meh if you're actually AT the battle of endor then how could you watch a recording of it happening before it actually happened
Well, one universe's reality is another one's fiction. I mean, Aza Chorn could have read a comic about the sentinel attack (since such comics exist in his universe) to learn all about it, even though he then was present at that event in week 7 of the DTL. It seems to me that the question is just "Do the Star Wars movies exist in the Marvel and DC Universes?" It would surprise me very much to learn that there haven't been any references to the characters having seen those movies.

Actually, I can think of one off the top of my head. There was an X-Men comic where the Black Bird crash landed in the ocean, and Colossus walks out there to lift it up from underneath. The other X-Men don't know he did, so as a joke Shadowcat starts pretending she's lifting it with "the Force", like Yoda in Empire Strikes Back.

Tropico

05-31-2005, 12:31 PM

Meh if you're actually AT the battle of endor then how could you watch a recording of it happening before it actually happened:confused:

The same way that we've had battles during the attack on Genosha and on Coast City at different time periods. Time and space have little to no meaning to the DTL gods.;)

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 12:58 PM

Well, one universe's reality is another one's fiction. I mean, Aza Chorn could have read a comic about the sentinel attack (since such comics exist in his universe) to learn all about it, even though he then was present at that event in week 7 of the DTL. It seems to me that the question is just "Do the Star Wars movies exist in the Marvel and DC Universes?" It would surprise me very much to learn that there haven't been any references to the characters having seen those movies.

Actually, I can think of one off the top of my head. There was an X-Men comic where the Black Bird crash landed in the ocean, and Colossus walks out there to lift it up from underneath. The other X-Men don't know he did, so as a joke Shadowcat starts pretending she's lifting it with "the Force", like Yoda in Empire Strikes Back.

Bah its crap to me, I say Star wars as a film doesn't exist in the comic universes, its a helluva lot more interesting that way:o

Otherwise someone could just pick up Kid eternity summon frickin GOKU

AnnoyingSilence

05-31-2005, 01:22 PM

Goku...? SS2? He'd killo anyone period in the DTL:D same for the plain out SS's. shu, even a pumped up regular Goku or Gohan could level the DTL with ease.

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 01:26 PM

Well that discussion is for another time, but my point is if Star wars can be considered fictional in the comic universes, then virtually anything else can be as well. Kid Eternity could concivebly summon anyone he wants from from the Terminator to Mickey Mouse:o

Spidey mentioned watching Batman returns in a spidey comic once. Does that mean he knows Batman is Bruce Wayne:confused:

The Leaguer

05-31-2005, 01:27 PM

Actually, Queen of Fables has summoned the Terminator before, and Jason and Freddy.

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 01:29 PM

Don't remember seeing that

The Leaguer

05-31-2005, 01:31 PM

Doesn't make it any less true. ;)

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 01:33 PM

If their names weren't mentioned then it isn't:p

Example: A character looking EXACTLY like Doomsday appearing in the Hulk

The Leaguer

05-31-2005, 01:34 PM

Actually, the Terminator had a white t-shirt on under a black jacket, and the letters "erminato" were visible.

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 01:35 PM

Still technically wasn't the Terminator (for obvious copyright reasons)

Why the hell would the terminator wear a T shirt with Terminator on it anyway?:D

The Leaguer

05-31-2005, 01:37 PM

Maybe he was like the guy in Memento and has no long-term memory.

"Who am I!? Oh, I guess I'm the "Erminato."

wiegeabo

05-31-2005, 03:21 PM

Since I'm guilty of helping get the spirited discussion in the other thread going, I'll try getting it moved here where it belongs.

I believe that we have to use the comic potential of characters as judging their ranking, not just their potential power levels. A couple of examples:

Can the Silver Surfer rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Would he? No. That's not how he operates, and is effectively the limit of his powers. ---Uber

Can Darkseid rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight? Yes. Would he? Yes, but not until he either sat around for a while and finally became so disappointed with his team's performance that he'd decide to get involved, or someone like Superman dared to attack him. ---On the bubble

Can Amazo rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Would he? Yes. ---Too uber

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 03:25 PM

e

Can Amazo rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Would he? Yes. ---Too uber

But since he's NEVER actually done this your logic is kind of flawed:p

wiegeabo

05-31-2005, 03:26 PM

Ok, I'll rephrase

Can Fury rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Would he? Yes. ---Too uber

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 03:28 PM

The Fury never did this against the X-men nor the special executive, again flawed:p

wiegeabo

05-31-2005, 03:33 PM

Yet, I believe the point has been made. :rolleyes: :p

Guyverjay

05-31-2005, 03:33 PM

Dammit:(

AnnoyingSilence

06-01-2005, 01:35 PM

let me reword this for you, so i fits your compairison

I believe that we have to use the comic potential of characters as judging their ranking, not just their potential power levels. A couple of examples:

Can Amazo rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Has he? No. --- Uber

Can Fury rip the other team's molecules asunder and win the fight in the first few seconds? Yes. Has he? No. --- Uber

if you say we're going by character potential, then you can only do what that character has already done. That means you can't make up new tricks unless it is very concievable. Remember your going by thier comic potential, not thier power potential.

Harlekin

06-01-2005, 01:50 PM

Guyverjay

06-01-2005, 01:58 PM

So has Carnage:confused:

Amazo should NOT be allowed at all, good guy or not. Leejah is also a "good guy" and she's gone

Harlekin

06-01-2005, 02:03 PM

I was talking about the comparison that AS tried to 'fix'.

But hey, if I can keep Amazo, that'd be great, so I'll fight for the possibility.

AnnoyingSilence

06-01-2005, 02:22 PM

Actually the Fury has killed folks in a few seconds, so that would count for him being too uber. I wouldn't mind Amazo being ruled to be under the too-uber bar, but he would in any normal situation completely and utterly decimate someone.

But, as exception to that rule, my Amazo, who is a good guy and through that token should be allowed.Zoom, Stryfe, Amazo, just about any bad guy period has at one time killed another character in seconds(Doomsday almost killed BlueBeetle in 2,3 hits). that makes all forms of DD too uber right? How about Zoom, he hit WonerWomans sister 200 times in less than a second and she was in HORRIBLE condition(WW214). Some ubers, although uber, still can be killed like anyone else. So by what your saying, anyone who can kill anyone in a few seconds is too uber.

Harlekin

06-01-2005, 02:27 PM

Dude, seriously, I was using YOUR reasoning as adapted to Wiegeabo's. I corrected you on the Fury bit, because he HAS killed folk in seconds, which would make him too uber supposedly.

XFanTim

06-01-2005, 03:00 PM

Amazo should NOT be allowed at all, good guy or not. Leejah is also a "good guy" and she's gone
:up:

TheCorpulent1

06-01-2005, 04:27 PM

XFanTim

06-01-2005, 05:19 PM

Definitely. Power copiers on that level are built too uber.

After thinking about it, an absolute rule on potential would be kind of counterproductive. I also think that ruling out mental control entirely isn't a good idea, since it limits the possibilities for write-ups. As AS and Guyver pointed out, the risk of losing votes should be enough to rein the owners in on the too uber issue as long as obviously too uber characters like Composite Man, Amazo, Odin, and the rest are kept out.

Personally, I think that list of obvious too ubers still includes Thanos and Darkseid and, if we're going by Silver Surfer as he's portrayed in the comics as the top of the bar, King Thor.
I agree with Corp -- there's as much reason to make Thanos and Darkseid too uber as King Thor. I'd say make all three too uber.

Anyone have any opinions on some of the "On The Bubble" people who haven't been discussed much yet? Such as:

Green Lantern (Kal-El)
Magus (the techno-organic one)
Maelstrom
Optimus Prime (w/ Creation Matrix)
Megatron

wiegeabo

06-01-2005, 05:32 PM

I don't remember a good argument why the Transformers are too uber. In essence they're just really big, really strong, and really smart robots. Yet, Kitty Pride and Zeitgeist alone could probably do a real number on them. Also, anyone who can take one of their blasts and/or fire off some energy attacks could be a threat.

GL (Kal-El), I don't know. It's basically Superman (without the Kent upbringing) with a Lantern ring. He'd probably still be vulnerable to magic, and maybe mental, attacks. But non-magic attacks like kryptonite probably wouldn't work because the ring would protect him.

06-01-2005, 05:33 PM

Zoom, Stryfe, Amazo, just about any bad guy period has at one time killed another character in seconds(Doomsday almost killed BlueBeetle in 2,3 hits). that makes all forms of DD too uber right? How about Zoom, he hit WonerWomans sister 200 times in less than a second and she was in HORRIBLE condition(WW214). Some ubers, although uber, still can be killed like anyone else. So by what your saying, anyone who can kill anyone in a few seconds is too uber.

Doomsday didn't kill The Blue Beetle...

The Leaguer

06-01-2005, 06:37 PM

He said "almost."

TheCorpulent1

06-01-2005, 07:48 PM

How is Doomsday almost killing Blue Beetle in 2 seconds comparable to the Fury killing Captain Britain in seconds? Beetle and Captain Britain are on 2 vastly different power levels.

Johnny Blaze

06-01-2005, 08:53 PM

XFanTim

06-01-2005, 09:01 PM

A Few Things...
Darkseid can stay in the DTL, provided he is potrayed as he is currently in the comics (basically on the same level or a bit more powerful than Superman).

Maelstrom is off the Bubble list and is just an Uber.

Optimus Prime and Megatron I'm not entirely sure about. Maybe someone who is familiar with the Transformers comics from Marvel, like Guyver, could elaborate a bit on their power level?

The regular Cosmic Spider-Man is cool, but I'll need to know how powerful the What If... version became since he didn't lose the Captain Universe powers.

Regular Validus is cool, so just lose the GL ring.
Sounds reasonable. Question on the current Darkseid, though: How powerful is his Omega effect? I've heard it said that the Omega beams can control all forms of energy, irradicate someone from all points in time, all sorts of wild stuff. But I'm guessing that's the old-school, super powerful Darkseid, right?

The Leaguer

06-01-2005, 09:02 PM

I imagine JB had the recent Superman/Batman arc in mind. Wonder Woman deflected Darkseid's Omega Effect with her bracelets.

Johnny Blaze

06-01-2005, 09:09 PM

Yeah, and Supes was able to block them with his heat vision. Of course, Darkseid could still do all that stuff with the Omega Effect, but it seems it can be blocked now.

TheCorpulent1

06-01-2005, 09:54 PM

I guess Thanos isn't allowed at all then, since he's only gotten more powerful. Darkseid's basically just another Herald-level dude now, it seems. I assume Orion would still be allowed too, since he's gotten downgraded to basically a dumb Superman ever since Morrison portrayed him that way in JLA.

06-01-2005, 10:13 PM

He said "almost."

I misunderstood...

How is Doomsday almost killing Blue Beetle in 2 seconds comparable to the Fury killing Captain Britain in seconds? Beetle and Captain Britain are on 2 vastly different power levels.

Fury killed three Superman level beings at once, alongside several other super folk. And this is after swiftly taking apart a planet of super powered beings, some extremely powerful. And, you know, this was at his lower ebb of power. Hell, even before he killed Jaspers he pretty much accidently destroyed the hands of a cosmic being, not even trying to attack him.

A Few Things...
Darkseid can stay in the DTL, provided he is potrayed as he is currently in the comics (basically on the same level or a bit more powerful than Superman).

Maelstrom is off the Bubble list and is just an Uber.

Optimus Prime and Megatron I'm not entirely sure about. Maybe someone who is familiar with the Transformers comics from Marvel, like Guyver, could elaborate a bit on their power level?

The regular Cosmic Spider-Man is cool, but I'll need to know how powerful the What If... version became since he didn't lose the Captain Universe powers.

Regular Validus is cool, so just lose the GL ring.

What If Cosmic Spidey was more powerful than The Surfer in the words of Doom, who would know. Well, I think it was a Doombot, I forget.

Anyhow, that Spidey actually pitched in against Thanos during the IG, and Thanos lost. Remember the heroes had a what, 2.75 chance of beating him when he cut himself off from omnipotence and barred himself from stopping time? Spidey must of upped that a wee bit, and they somehow pulled it off. I still consider it bull**** to some extent, but hey, they didn't exactly show what happened in detail.

Johnny Blaze

06-01-2005, 11:42 PM

Ok, so the What If... Cosmic Spidey is Too Uber then.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 12:08 AM

I must concur.

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 01:41 AM

Dude, seriously, I was using YOUR reasoning as adapted to Wiegeabo's. I corrected you on the Fury bit, because he HAS killed folk in seconds, which would make him too uber supposedly.and i was talking about the whole team, not just one person. You definitely lose a vote on that match if you did it anyway.

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 01:44 AM

Doomsday didn't kill The Blue Beetle...almostHe said "almost."Ty.I misunderstood...alrighty

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 01:45 AM

How is Doomsday almost killing Blue Beetle in 2 seconds comparable to the Fury killing Captain Britain in seconds? Beetle and Captain Britain are on 2 vastly different power levels.don't know anything about that.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 03:52 AM

Ok, so the What If... Cosmic Spidey is Too Uber then.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ahura Mazda

06-02-2005, 06:18 AM

Wait a second, I have the What if with cosmic Spidey and at one time Doom almost steals the power. Thor gave him a fair fight as well.

I do not see how he is truly too uber.

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 08:59 AM

What about Magus? (link1 (http://www.marveldirectory.com/xoops/modules/wordbook/entry.php?entryID=446) link2 (http://www.mutanthigh.com/magus.html)) He can drastically increase his size, durability, and physical strength, to planetary scale. His greatest feat I know of is he can grow to such great size that he can tear a star in two (without hurting himself) and hurl part of it through space. He can also turn people into techno-organic beings by touching them and then absorb them into himself. He can also interface with and control technology, and can shapeshift himself into any form (duplicating the abilities of a machine if he copies its form, but only getting the appearance, not the powers, of humans whose form he copies.) Plus he's the leader of the Technarch, a race of techno-organic beings, so he has all the resources that go along with that.

However, he's been beaten by the X-Men/New Mutants more than once. But the first time seems like it was due to him not using his full powers, and the others due to Warlock and Cypher being able to reprogram him.

Rogue, Collosus, and Nightcrawler managed to hurt Magus badly enough when he first came to Earth that he retreated. Basically, Nightcrawler teleported away part of him, Rogue absorbed a bunch of his energy, and Collosus pounded on him a bunch. Of course, I can't imagine that any of this would have done any good if he had chosen to grow to his full size.

He was also beaten by the New Mutants (with Xavier's help.) I found a very short summary of the fight online:

Xavier, now able to access Magik's mind, helps her teleport to collect the rest of the New Mutants back to the Starjammer, and they are immediately attacked by Magus. Xavier augments the powers of Magma to hold together the planetary crust, Mirage to form an illusion of a strong Warlock, and Karma to possess Magus's mind. Cypher and Warlock merge and enter Magus's head, and reprogram him to be an infant.

There was another fight where Magus was defeated by the merged Warlock/Cypher and others, again by being reprogrammed.

I'm somewhat inclined to say too uber. It sounds like at full size he's way more physically formidable than just about any DTL character (and I think we could expect people to use him at full size.) Also, he's obviously highly resistant to telepathy, or else Xavier could have just mind-blasted him in New Mutants #50. Even with Xavier, Moonstar, and Karma working together, they weren't able to stop him, just to hold him off long enough for Warlock/Cypher to reprogram him. And I'm not sure anyone other than Warlock would be able to re-program him like that -- Warlock was from the same species, after all, so presumably had a unique ability to interface with Magus's techno-organics.

However, here is 4StingFox's defense (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5305036&postcount=6741) of the character.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 09:23 AM

Wait a second, I have the What if with cosmic Spidey and at one time Doom almost steals the power. Thor gave him a fair fight as well.

I do not see how he is truly too uber.
Those don't necessarily prevent him from being too uber. Judging a character by who's beaten them isn't exactly an accurate gauge, considering the Fantastic Four have "beaten" Galactus and L-Ron has "beaten" Despero.

What does a "fair fight" with Thor entail?

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 09:29 AM

Meaning Thor didn't get ass raped within five seconds like the too uber status would entail:o

Seems to me that Cosmic spidey has been ruled too uber just because a Doombot says he's more powerful than the Surfer:rolleyes:

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 09:45 AM

Cosmic Spider-Man's not too uber. The morally questionable What If version is. The Surfer's being judged uber based on how he's portrayed in the comics and how Leaguer's used him as far as I know, but the What If Cosmic Spidey seems to have none of the moral restraints that the 616 Surfer or Spidey would have.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 10:18 AM

Rubbish

True he's not a goodie goodie and he does have a God complex but he's not a bad guy. He just lives for the greater good, the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few sort of thing. The Uni power controls him and the Uni power isn't evil.

He didn't even kill VENOM of all people, bah have you even read the comic in question?:o

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 10:22 AM

Was there ever a ruling about whether our characters would know about the Battle of Endor from having watched Return of the Jedi? I'm serious.

Also, I just realized that probably none of my characters have met King Thor before. (I was thinking Corp used him last time against me, but no, he used Sersi.) When my cosmic entity who controls the team introduces their opponents to them, how should he list King Thor? Is he actually called "King Thor", or is this just what fans call him? Would something like "Thor, Lord of Asgard" be more appropriate?

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 10:24 AM

What's the most impressive feat of the What If Cosmic Spidey?

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 10:28 AM

He's not called King Thor, that's just the name that's kind of sprung up around him. He's not really called anything other than "Thor" or "Lord" or any other generic monarch epithets.

Also, you're right, no one would know about King Thor. I don't think anyone would know Hourman or Proctor, either.

Guyver: No, I haven't read the issue, which is why I'm asking questions about it. You told me that the What If version was a lot more callous, which I took to mean that he was less restrained. If that's not the case, then I misinterpreted. Sorry.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 10:30 AM

Knocking Thor into outer space with one punch I suppose.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 10:34 AM

That's not very impressive... what issue was it? I'll see if I can track it down.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 10:34 AM

Guyver: No, I haven't read the issue, which is why I'm asking questions about it. You told me that the What If version was a lot more callous, which I took to mean that he was less restrained. If that's not the case, then I misinterpreted. Sorry.

No need to apologise just me being an oversensitive ****, what with all my characters seemingly getting the boot left right and centre:o

Cosmic spidey (from what if #31) no longer considers the individual important. Almost like that is beneath him. He see's everything on a more grander cosmic scale. He'd happily allow a person to burn to death in a building if he had to save a few 1000 people elsewhere for example

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 10:39 AM

Sounds a lot like Captain Marvel after he "got over" his insanity, but with more power.

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 10:48 AM

what it really sounds like is if one cosmic being is too uber, they all are.(quasar, SS, Cosmicspidey, Cosmicstorm)

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 10:50 AM

What constitutes a Cosmic being?

What is is about the surfer that people fear?

Matter manipulation/energy Manipulation? Basically the Power cosmic?

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 10:56 AM

i do believe i just listed good examples of the cosmic beings that i'm referring to

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 11:01 AM

Also, you're right, no one would know about King Thor. I don't think anyone would know Hourman or Proctor, either.
Well, they'll know Proctor from our previous match, but not the others.

Of course, that means Proctor will also remember my team, which is the same as that match except that I've replaced Iceman with Polaris.

By the way, I know Batgirl is an expert martial artist who can read people's movements to predict their moves and what-not -- does she also have some staple weapons that she uses? Or mostly unarmed combat?

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 11:10 AM

She mostly sticks to unarmed combat, but basically anything in Batman's arsenal is available to her. He supplies her with batarangs, gas bombs, that sort of thing.

Beyond Proctor, Thor knows Gamora pretty well and Hourman would know about Prometheus from the Justice Legion and Justice League. Did anyone on your team know Proctor last time? He's kind of obscure...

Regarding the Surfer, it just seems like he's a little too stacked to me. Matter transmutation, the highest order of energy manipulation/projection, light-speed reflexes, high resistance to telepathy, super-strength that can basically go as high as he wants it to by supplementing it with cosmic energy, and other stuff. Doomsday/Brainiac is ranked too uber and he's just basically the Juggernaut with super-speed and telepathy. But then, I wasn't actually arguing that the Surfer should be ranked too uber, I was just saying that if he's not, King Thor probably wouldn't be either. But if we're going by in-character presentations as opposed to full potential, King Thor would be alot likelier to cut loose and kill people.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 11:51 AM

Well then how is Cosmic spidey anymore Uber than that?

The only difference to me is the added spidey powers (the strength can't count because as you said Surfer can augment that)

I don't think Doosmday/brainiac should be too uber either:o

After all its only Doomsday wars Doomsday (who is allowed) with telepathy (who can't counter telepathy in this thing?)

Johnny Blaze

06-02-2005, 11:55 AM

Sounds a lot like Captain Marvel after he "got over" his insanity, but with more power.
He does indeed. I'll have to see if my shop has that What If... when I go get my comics later.
Guyver, what What If... volume was it?

Was there ever a ruling about whether our characters would know about the Battle of Endor from having watched Return of the Jedi? I'm serious. No, you would not know about the Battle of Endor from watching the movie; the battle is unknown to all teams.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 11:57 AM

I don't either. Maybe I'm missing something in the reasoning that's gotten them too uber status though. I don't know.

JB: It's What If volume 2. I looked it up on Milehigh.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 11:57 AM

Volume 2

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 11:59 AM

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:02 PM

Meh I don't know, like Most Class 100+ characters theres no amount set in stone for how much they can lift:o

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 12:03 PM

Marvel officially stated that Spider-Man was the strongest hero on Earth with the cosmic powers.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:07 PM

I was talking about the Surfer

And thats probably accurate (Class 500 base) considering the characters that don't live on earth

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 12:09 PM

Kind of sucks for the Hulk. There goes his gimmick. :(

Johnny Blaze

06-02-2005, 12:10 PM

Was it the Doomsday Wars arc in which Brainiac took control over Doomsday's body?

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:14 PM

Yes

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 12:16 PM

I don't mean this to start any arguments, but I'm now curious about what the upper limit on strength is here. Despero's basically a stronger Doomsday/Brainiac, isn't he?

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 12:30 PM

And thats probably accurate (Class 500 base) considering the characters that don't live on earthi'm asking about his telepathy.... compair to someone plz(xavier, cable)

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:32 PM

Against Supermans Jobber Aura, it does Jack **** but against anybody else its definately in the Uber area. J'onn wasn't able to enter his mind and Brainiac did once put down all the New gods at the same time:o

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 12:35 PM

sounds too uber to me

sounds like Juggernaut/Cable(-telekinesis) plus hes super smart(and samrts do count onceyou get at a certain level and combonation)

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:36 PM

He doesn't have Telekinesis:o

Don't know where you got that from:o

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 12:37 PM

look at the minus sign there... settle down

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 12:39 PM

Yeah I've looked twice, still don't know why Telekinesis is brought up:o

Why didn't you just say Juggernaut Xavier?

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 12:54 PM

had to specify -telekinesis(think about it) and i don't think that Xavier could takeover all the NewGods minds. they all are very strong willed and have motherboxes

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 01:01 PM

That seems like an awful lot of telepathic power if J'onn couldn't get into his mind and he could **** up the New Gods. J'onn's more powerful than Xavier, according to other people around here.

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 01:28 PM

so for the major breakdown of this subject

Juggernaut and Doomsday are both thee most unbeatable and invulnerable characters of each universe. Xavier is among the more powerful telepaths(enough to make him uber), but he can be easily overwhelmed by Stryfe, Cable, Exodus, and other Marvel telepaths. Where as Brainiac's telepathy is ranked above that of Martian Manhunter and has taken over a whole world of NewGods with thier MotherBoxes. its one thing to have 1 unbeatable characteristic, but it will take a while to take him down physically and mentally. Either way you go, you still have to be protected from the other(which either way you go is at the VeryTop of its class)

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 01:31 PM

Corp, in answer to your question, I don't think I had my team know about Proctor last time. (If I did, I screwed up, since I can't think of how they would know him.) This time they should at least know the basics from having fought him once before, although that wouldn't exactly make them experts on what he can do.

Actually, I don't think it will make much of a difference for my writeup -- I'm not planning to have them do a whole lot of prep-time planning for him. It will probably just be the difference between saying "Look, it's Proctor, that guy we fought before!" instead of "Who the hell is that?"

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 01:44 PM

(Off Subject)Check this out. I just setup the links Transactions and Discussion on my Signature to go to the last post:D. I know it ain't all that amazing, but i haven't seen anyone else's link like that:mad:

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 01:57 PM

Congrats, AS. You must be very proud. :)
Corp, in answer to your question, I don't think I had my team know about Proctor last time. (If I did, I screwed up, since I can't think of how they would know him.) This time they should at least know the basics from having fought him once before, although that wouldn't exactly make them experts on what he can do.

Actually, I don't think it will make much of a difference for my writeup -- I'm not planning to have them do a whole lot of prep-time planning for him. It will probably just be the difference between saying "Look, it's Proctor, that guy we fought before!" instead of "Who the hell is that?"
Right, I figured as much. I was just looking over the previous match and our line-ups this time and I was wondering how anybody'd know anything about Proctor. But the guys who were on your team last time should at least know he has the Ebony Blade, which Dr. Strange would know the specifics of, being an arcane master and all.

AnnoyingSilence

06-02-2005, 02:07 PM

Congrats, AS. You must be very proud. :)HeHe:Dno:(

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:10 PM

had to specify -telekinesis(think about it) and i don't think that Xavier could takeover all the NewGods minds. they all are very strong willed and have motherboxes

He didn't take over their minds , he shut there ass's down then lost to Superman straight away afterwards:D

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:11 PM

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:19 PM

You said J'onn couldn't get into Doomsday/Brainy's mind, which implies he's a stronger telepath than J'onn. If that's not the case, qualify it a little more or people are just gonna keep misinterpreting.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:26 PM

How does it?

They could be equals for all I know. But considering how his telepathic power doesn't seem to help him against the Jobber Aura of Superman I doubt it. Besides by not being able to enter his mind I meant this. Brainiac was able to HIDE his persona from J'onn while he first battled the JLA. i.e J'onn didn't know Brainiac was in there and assumed it was normal ol Doomsday. Of course a few moments later Brainy Dooms had completely obliterated J'onn off panel:o

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:31 PM

See, that's qualification. When you said J'onn wasn't able to enter his mind, I assumed you meant he couldn't get past Brainiac's psychic defenses or something. But if he was just masking his presence telepathically, that doesn't really say anything about the strength of his telepathy. Brainy/Doomsday I'd expect to win against J'onn, so really, that doesn't say much either. That New Gods thing sounds pretty uber, though.

I don't know what to say about the Superman thing. Superman really does have a lot of nebulous, vague crap that goes on around him, just so he can pretend to keep the title of DC's "most powerful hero."

I guess if Brainiac/Doomsday's telepathy is around J'onn or Xavier's level, he'd basically just be a stronger version of J'onn, and that's not too bad. Psychic defenses and a bruiser would be enough to handle him.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:33 PM

You need a pretty powerful Bruiser:D

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:34 PM

Well, yeah. But I'm talking an uber bruiser like the Hulk or a versatile powerhouse like Silver Surfer or Thor. Top-tier ubers, natch, but he still seems reasonable.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:36 PM

Excellent

I'm kind of glad hardly anyone has read Doomsday wars now:p

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:46 PM

Why, am I missing something? Is he much stronger than I'm thinking or what? Don't pull another C-Man on us and slide him in under the radar before revealing how powerful he really is. ;)

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:48 PM

Hey I never did that:(

But yeah I can't see anybody slugging it out with him and walking away (apart from Juggy):o

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:52 PM

So he's stronger than anyone else in the DTL, as fast as the fastest people in the DTL, and maybe stronger than the strongest telepaths in the DTL? I would say that likely qualifies him as too uber...

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:54 PM

Nah he's not stronger than the Hulk or Validus:o

But he'd OBVIOUSLY have to be stronger tha Superman (whose one of the strongest guys around). So whats the big surprise?

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 02:55 PM

He sounds pretty much like Despero, who's still too uber because of his vast mental powers and physical formidability.

Guyverjay

06-02-2005, 02:59 PM

Bah I still don't see all the fuss, I haven't really told you anythign you didn't already know. You KNEW how formidable Doomsday is (was) physically and he has telepathic might on top. What's the big deal?

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 03:00 PM

They way I see it, once telepathy is up to uber level, the degree of telepathy doesn't really matter. If your opponent has uber level telepaths, you either have telepathic defense or you're screwed. The only way it makes a difference is if one telepath is so insanely powerful that they can blow through another one's mental blocks like nothing.

Anyway, let's look at all the bruiser telepaths:

Despero
Doomsday-Brainiac
Xavier-Juggernaut
Fernus
Martian Manhunter

Fernus and Martian Manhunter are basically the same, right? Except Fernus is ruthless and evil, and doesn't have the fire weakness (which I hear isn't as big a deal for MM as it used to be anyway.) So if Fernus is still allowed (and I assume he is, since I didn't see him on JB's too uber list), then he's the standard we should be comparing the others to.

Xavier Juggernaut has telepathy roughly on par with Fernus (maybe a little weaker), strength either on par or perhaps a little better, and durability that's a good bit better. However, he's a good bit slower, can't fly, can't change shape, can't go intangible, has no laser vision (or whatever the hell it is), etc. If you ask me, Fernus's versatility makes him a much better DTL character. Which is why Xavier Juggernaut should be allowed no question.

Now as I understand it (and I haven't read Doomsday Wars either, so correct me if I'm wrong), Doomsday-Brainiac's main advantage over Xavier-Juggernaut is that he's smarter and a whole lot faster. He may be a bit stronger telepath too, but like I said, I don't think this matters much. But the real question is, how does Doomsday-Brainiac compare to Fernus? In terms of telepathy, it sounds like they're about the same. I assume he's stronger, faster, and more durable, but how much so? Enough to more than make up for all of Fernus's other powers? If not, he should probably be allowed. But if he would kick Fernus's ass, I think that's pushing the limit a bit too much.

I suppose you can argue that so long as you have a telepath to neutralize Doomsday-Brainiac's telepathy, then you just need a bruiser strong enough to take him out. In which case, the question becomes whether he could be beat by people like Hulk, Drax, etc. Could he? Not having read Doomsday Wars, I don't know the answer.

Then again, I'm not quite sure I buy that reasoning. If even someone like Fernus isn't strong enough to beat Doomsday-Brainiac physically, then you're left needing two ubers (a top-level telepath like Jonn or Xavier, and a top-level bruiser like Hulk) in order to beat one. I suppose you could say someone like Surfer with telepathic resistance and a ton of power could do it by himself, but he couldn't also protect the rest of your team from telepathy, and I doubt he could take down D-B quick enough to keep them from getting telepathically messed up.

Regarding Despero, it sounds like he may be telepathically stronger than any of them. If he's strong enough to break their mental blocks, then he's clearly too uber. If not, eh, maybe he could be allowed if Doomsday-Brainiac is.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 03:01 PM

I don't know how formidable Doomsday is, actually. He's been shown all over the charts, from kicking Superman's ass with ease to getting utterly owned by Supes. I think I'm gonna look for the Doomsday Wars TPB when I go to the comic shop... er, now.

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 03:22 PM

To summarize what I was saying a little more succinctly:

I look at Fernus as the pinnacle of bruiser-telepaths as far as the DTL is concerned, with Martian Manhunter and Xavier-Juggernaut somewhat below (mostly since Xavier-Juggernaut is a good bit slower and less versatile.)

If someone like Doomsday-Brainiac or Despero would be too much for Fernus to handle, there's a good chance they're too uber. I doesn't seem fair if they'd require two separate top-level ubers (one telepath, one bruiser) to take them down.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 03:41 PM

What do you know, my shop had copies of both the Doomsday Wars TPB and the What If Spider-Man Had Kept His Cosmic Powers? I shall read them now and return with my thoughts on the matter. :up:

Johnny Blaze

06-02-2005, 03:51 PM

Lucky bastard. :mad: :o
My shop didn't have either one. :(

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 04:57 PM

After reading the Doomsday Wars, I think Doomsday/Brainiac is too uber. If Despero is too uber, DD/Brainy most certainly is. Despero manhandled a bunch of heavy-hitters and his telepathy/TK is very potent in Virtue & Vice, and Brainiac showed basically the same capabilities in the Doomsday Wars. He utterly demolished the JLA. Seriously, not one of them even had a glimmer of a chance against him, including Wonder Woman, Orion (granted, the vastly depowered version from Morrison's JLA), and J'onn. When Superman finally did show up, Brainiac beat the living crap out of him too. Superman had to resort to trickery to beat Brainiac, then shunt Doomsday's body between 4 transporters to take him out. In my opinion, people like Doomsday/Brainy and Despero would have little trouble tearing an entire DTL team apart by themselves under next season's power caps, let alone with another 4 people on their own team to back them up.

Edit: And, after reading the What If, I'd say Cosmic Spider-Man isn't too uber. There are loads of weaknesses people could exploit. Although nothing was mentioned about telepathy in the comic. Does anyone know if the Uni-Power protects against telepathy?

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 06:36 PM

So it seems like the popular sentiment is that it should go something like this:

Too Uber
Timazo
Takion
GA Android
Zeus
Queen of Fables
Superboy of the 843rd Century
Imperiatrix/Rogue
Aza Chorn
Odin
Leejah
The Fury
Super Adaptoid
Dr. Manhattan
Composite Man
Dr. Midas (Cosmic Man)
The Doctor
Hourman Android (w/ Worlogog)
The Skull
Amazo (Rock of Ages)
Absorbing Man (Earth X)

Probably Too Uber
Despero
Doomsday/Brainiac
Thanos
King Thor
Validus with GL ring (he's fine without it)

Probably Not Too Uber
Cosmic Spider-Man
Cosmic Spider-Man (What If…)
Xavier Juggernaut
Paragon
Gog (Action Comics version -- Kingdom Gog is too uber)
Darkseid (wussy current version)

Undecided
Green Lantern (Kal-El)
Gladiator
Magus
Resurrection Man (1 Million)
Optimus Prime (w/ Creation Matrix)
Megatron

Not meant to represent any official decision by JB, just the way the discussion seemed to be going. (E.g., Leaguer and others thought Kingdom Gog was too uber, but not the Action Comics one, and no one really argued. I argued Paragon is fine, some people agreed and no one has objected. Corp and Guyver think What If Cosmic Spidey is cool, and no one else seems to know. Etc.) The ones I called undecided are those that haven't really been discussed much.

That sound about right?

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 06:38 PM

By the way, is Android Hourman still too uber without the Worlogog? Or is he OK without it? (Does it just let him use his powers for more than an hour, or what? If that's all, I don't see why it would make a difference in his status -- a match wouldn't last longer than an hour anyway.)

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 06:48 PM

Hourman's whole M.O. changed when he ditched the Worlogog. Yes, he is still capable of much of the same stuff he could do with the Worlogog, but he's far less likely to use his time powers and far more likely to just hit people. He doesn't have any kind of pre-cog without the Worlogog either, since his time powers are reduced and not always active. I would say he's not too uber, but I'll admit, I'm biased because I really, really love the character. If he turns out to not be too uber, I'll just downgrade him from the version with the Worlogog to the one without.

The Leaguer

06-02-2005, 07:37 PM

Gog (Action Comics) should definitely be legal. Like I said, his only real powers are strength and durability, which I would put at above Superman's, and flight. Take away his time travel abilities, and he seems like a great Season 3 uber.

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 07:39 PM

And, after reading the What If, I'd say Cosmic Spider-Man isn't too uber. There are loads of weaknesses people could exploit.
Care to give any examples, for those of us who haven't read it?

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 07:56 PM

He still had to breathe, for one thing. Venom almost suffocated him. His durability is vague at best, but could reasonably just be counted as relatively low for ubers, since he seemed to feel Venom's blows pretty badly. Certainly not on Juggernaut or Hulk or even Thor's level. A Doombot stole his powers with a gun. He doesn't seem all that fast. He was still pretty new to using his molecular transmutation powers, so he doesn't have the kind of precision of someone like Sersi or even Thena or the Silver Surfer. Barring the idea that the Enigma Force protects against telepathy, he's vulnerable to that. And, of course, everyone's vulnerable to magic. Underneath all the power and the shifted priorities, he's still Peter Parker and he still fights like Peter Parker. He can't fly too well and he mostly uses simple energy blasts and variations on his webbing.

wiegeabo

06-02-2005, 08:19 PM

Going off of Tim's list...

I agree with the TU's as well as Despero & Doom/Braini as probably TU.

I'm still on the fence with Thanos and King Thor. I'm leaning towards letting them in, but am afraid what will happen to the TU bar. With these two, it may be worth letting them in and having people decide uber/too uber with their votes during matches rather than try and hammer it out here. The same goes for Validus (GL), although Validus without the ring is fine.

I don't have a problem with either of the Cosmic Spideys, Xav. Juggy, Paragon, or Gog (Action) being uber. It might be worth letting a non-wussified Darkseid in like Thanos and King Thor, and let the match votes decide.

No clue about Lantern (Kal-El). It's like putting two really powerful ubers together. I lean towards uber, but we might have to let the votes decide. Gladiator and Res Man (1 mil.) I say are high ubers, but ok. The Transformers are probably ok (need to know how the Matrix affects Optimus, but that can be thrown out if TU). Don't know about Magus.

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 08:31 PM

my comments on Magus (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5832271&postcount=7840)

I'm inclined to say he's too uber and his losses are the result of CIS and unusual circumstances, but given that basically all of his appearances seem to be kind of embarrasing losses, maybe he's not as powerful as he seems on paper.

(I realize all comics are on paper -- it's just a figure of speech. :p )

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 08:33 PM

Magus sounds too uber to me.

XFanTim

06-02-2005, 08:59 PM

My personal opinion is that all the ones I called "probably not too uber" are fine, as well as Resurrection Man and probably Gladiator. Although Gladiator has potential for abuse . . . his power level has been all over the map. Sometimes, he's performing pre-crisis Superman feats, other times he's jobbing to third-rate X-Characters. He's gotten *****-slapped by the Hulk, one-punch KOed by Jahf, KOed by Gambit, sent flying by Strong Guy, and been held off by Cannonball. Hulk and Jahf are both serious bruisers, but the rest . . . . I think the Starjammers even took Gladiator out once with their regular handguns (which are some sort of Shiar ray-guns, but nothing Gladiator wouldn't have seen every day -- that's about like Superman getting taken out by a magnum.)

So at any rate, as long as he could find a happy medium between Pre-Crisis Superman and Gambit's *****, I think he'd be a good DTL uber.

JewishHobbit

06-02-2005, 09:47 PM

On Resurrection Man, I'm not sure that he'd be too uber. Here's a list of reasons:

1) Though he does have extra strength and durability he can only die and be reborn with one power at a time and we can easily set a rule about his abilities he develops have to be within Uber or less ranked power.

2) His powers and instant kills are done with his armband. Take out the armband or the arm in general and he looses the ability to choose powers. Now his powers will come at random when he dies (he could suddenly gain the great teeth of a bunny!).

3) He doesn't have a limited amount of weaknesses. He can be beaten in a bajillion ways by people of every rank. A reg can easily take him out just as an uber can easily take him out. All it takes is something more than a normal fist or maybe a gun.

Those are just some side thoughts. I thought I'd throw them out there though I'm not sure if I'll be debating them much (busy at the moment). But that's some stuff to chew on about the character.

The Leaguer

06-02-2005, 09:49 PM

He only has superstrength and flight as base powers. The only enhanced durability R-Man has is whatever his heightened strength allows him.

JewishHobbit

06-02-2005, 09:51 PM

oh okay, I was under the impression from Elijya that he had extra durability,.. well then even moreso why he shouldn't be too uber. (and I actually didnt' know he had flight, I could have used that!) And if anyone asks I don't know exactly how powerful he is but Elijya said something about him catching a punch by either Superman or a superman level character (I don't remember which)

wiegeabo

06-02-2005, 10:09 PM

Yeah, I'd put Magus in probably TU category.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 10:14 PM

He caught Superman's punch and then knocked Superman on his ass with a right hook in Adventures of Superman 1,000,000. R-Man doesn't have high durability himself, but he does wear a tektite suit that seems pretty durable. He could turn blades with the tektite covering his arm and his cloak, but he got impaled so I doubt the tektites are really that effective. The tektite suit doesn't cover his whole body though. Most notably, his whole left arm is uncovered except for the Resurrector on his forearm. I'd put him at a consistent Superman level of strength with Spider-Man-level durability thanks to the tektite suit, plus flight and whatever other ability he chooses.

The Leaguer

06-02-2005, 10:38 PM

He also has a boomtube generator built into his uniform. Just FYI.

TheCorpulent1

06-02-2005, 10:58 PM

So teleportation's a constant power as well. Not a very practical form of teleportation for open combat, of course, but it's there.

AnnoyingSilence

06-03-2005, 01:54 AM

Am I the ONLY person on earth that has actually read Doomsday Wars?:mad:if DoomsDay Wars is the rematch, I'm about to read it here soon.

The Leaguer

06-03-2005, 01:59 AM

Doomsday Wars is the second real rematch, I believe. Hunter/Prey was the first.

AnnoyingSilence

06-03-2005, 02:00 AM

They way I see it, once telepathy is up to uber level, the degree of telepathy doesn't really matter.something that I've stated before. Once you get into uber level telepathy, the only thing thats going to be different is even more power or more skills

AnnoyingSilence

06-03-2005, 04:01 AM

Doomsday Wars is the second real rematch, I believe. Hunter/Prey was the first.just looked at what i do have. I got both Hunter/Prey and Doomsday Wars.:D:D how lucky is that? and i got the only issue of outsiders i'm missing on the way, plus 10 other JSA's... i'm a happy man. next i have to work on Aquaman(the new one(with the hand thing)). probly go after hawkman after that

Johnny Blaze

06-03-2005, 09:41 AM

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 10:23 AM

Updated list...

Too Uber
Timazo
Takion
GA Android
Zeus
Queen of Fables
Superboy of the 843rd Century
Imperiatrix/Rogue
Aza Chorn
Odin
Doomsday/Brainiac
Leejah
The Fury
Super Adaptoid
Dr. Manhattan
Composite Man
Dr. Midas (Cosmic Man)
The Doctor
Despero
The Skull
Amazo (Rock of Ages)
Absorbing Man (Earth X)
King Thor
Magus

Bubble
Green Lantern (Kal-El)
Paragon
Darkseid
Thanos
Hourman Android

Gladiator and both Cosmic Spider-Mans are cool.

Doomsday/Brainiac and Despero are both Too Uber.

The Android Hourman I would be inclined to say could stay without the Worlogog, course I'd like to hear others opinions on him first.

As for Green Lantern Supes, I'd say that if Validus has to ditch his power ring (which he does), then he will too.
All of those decisions sound good to me. But how powerful is the version of Thanos you're thinking of allowing?

I also think that it might be good to list characters being forced to downgrade. E.g., Cable (Burnt Offering) -> Cable (some other storyline), Gog -> Gog (Action Comics), Validus (GL) -> Validus, Hourman Android (w/ Worlogog) -> Hourman Android

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 10:35 AM

I think Paragon should definitely stay. I've already explained my reasons, but just to reiterate one more time -- he has very exploitable weaknesses:

(1) He can't copy weapons or technology. Green Lantern rings, Infinity Gems, magic artifacts, cyborgs, androids, guys with guns, etc. he's basically worthless against.

(2) He can only copy those who are near by. So anyone with long range attacks (energy beams, fire blasts, guns/arrows/other projectiles, telekinesis, telepathy, etc.) could take him down from beyond his range to copy them. (And in the case of guns/arrows, who couldn't copy them anyway.)

(3) He loses a persons powers instantly when they leave his range.

(4) He has no base powers. Unless there are superhumans in his immediate vacinity, he's just a regular human with ordinary human vulnerabilities.

So yes, he can potentially beat someone very powerful, like Silver Surfer (if the Surfer makes the mistake of trying to fight him from close range. He could easily take Paragon out from a distance if he wanted.) But at the same time, he would lose 10 times out of 10 in a one-on-one fight with someone like the Punisher (and I mean Frank Castle, although Paragon would also get destroyed by the android Punisher).

Now, I usually try to use Paragon more intelligently, by having him stay close to one of his allies with enhanced durability until he gets close to his foes. But it isn't too hard to find a way to separate him from his team, at which point he loses their powers instantly. Also, even though most other DTL characters won't know Paragon until they fight him the first time (making it harder for them to exploit his weaknesses), the owners will know his powers, and can easily make sure their lineup contains someone he matches up horribly against like Iron Man or Green Lantern. Plus, the longer he's in the DTL, the more characters will know about him and how to beat him.

Does anyone else have an opinion? I feel like I just keep repeating the same reasons, since no one has tried to disagree with me.

Guyverjay

06-03-2005, 10:37 AM

He wouldn't lose in a one on one with Frank if it was hand to hand:p

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 10:39 AM

Yeah, that's true. I was basing that on the assumption that Frank would have a gun in his hand and Paragon wouldn't. (And wouldn't be getting the drop on him or anything like that.)

AnnoyingSilence

06-03-2005, 11:50 AM

I agree he should stay. I mean, if you have an uber that is right on the bar, then cheat and get inside the area and Paragon disappears because he went too uber.

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 12:57 PM

I agree he should stay. I mean, if you have an uber that is right on the bar, then cheat and get inside the area and Paragon disappears because he went too uber.
Well, I'm glad you agree, but I don't think it would work quite like that. I mean, I don't think there's any rule about a character "disappearing" if they get too powerful, only that they just aren't allowed to get that powerful. Let's say JB chose to have one of next seasons matches on Galactus's world ship (with Galactus still on board). If Paragon went and stood next to Galactus, he wouldn't disappear, he just wouldn't be allowed to copy Galactus's full power.

As far as copying powers of actual DTL characters, I don't really see how that could make him too uber. Even if Silver Surfer is the pinacle of next seasons DTL, Paragon standing next to him isn't a more powerful Silver Surfer, he's a more powerful Silver Surfer who loses his powers unless he can stay standing next to the real Surfer. I'm not convinced that's better. I guess you could say "But what if your other uber and both of your opponent's ubers were standing right next to him? Then you could end up with someone who had the powers of, say, Dr. Strange, Fernus, and Silver Surfer. Surely that would be too uber?" But (1) it's unlikely that Paragon could get all the other participants in the battle to just stand next to him, and (2) He'd still have the weakness that he could be instantly rendered powerless by everyone moving away from him.

At any rate, I don't think there needs to be some artificial cap on how much power Paragon can copy from his opponents. You shouldn't be able to just have Validus and the Hulk stand next to him and pound the crap out of him, on the basis that no one in the DTL can be stronger than Validus and the Hulk put together. The whole point of the character is that you can't overwhelm him with brute force like that, and instead you have to exploit his weaknesses.

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 01:10 PM

Hourman has super-strength, high durability, his auto-repair, flight, the ability to change his appearance (as he does when he takes on his "Matthew Tyler" secret identity), and teleportation through space when not using his hour of power. With the hour of power activated, he has exactly 1 hour of time powers (after which he needs another hour for his tachyon hourglass to be ready to go again), all of which will disappear after that one hour unless stated otherwise, that include:

- aging/devolving people and things with time vision
- "reading" people's experiences with time vision (he can also just read experiences that certain things the people used were associated with, like when he relived parts of the original Hourman's life with a Miraclo pill)
- speeding up/slowing down time around himself and others
- making people relive their experiences with time vision (he can also accompany them on these experiences)
- sensing time anomalies (not really pre-cognition, he can just sense where things are weird in the timestream, not the nature of the weirdness; it's much more limited than his time senses with the Worlogog)
- teleporting through time, entering and exiting the timestream, teleporting to his timeship (he can stay in other times, the timestream, and his timeship even after his hour of power is up)
- pulling other things through time using some part of them as a medium with time vision (this is how he "resurrected" Tomorrow Woman from her grave, but she disappeared after his hour of power was up)
- creating "timepoints" (areas where time doesn't pass; these actually persist after his hour is up)
- imparting part of his hour of power to others (it subtracts from his own time and they can't really use the tachyons for anything, it just protects them from time screwiness)
- teleporting things through time (he pulled Professor Ivo's tombstone out of the future and left it in his cell for him to see the day he'd die; these kinds of things disappear after the hour is up)

Hourman without the Worlogog has lots of weaknesses. He has shown a weakness to telepathy (Tomorrow Woman), magic (Mordru), and even physical brutality (Amazo, an evil version of himself). If you place him outside of time, he's powerless even with his hour of power. The hour will still count down since it's controlled by its own tachyons ("time particles," according to the comic), but he won't be able to use it for anything with no time to manipulate and it won't be ready to go in another hour if no time passes around him. Really, if you want to see effective methods of beating Hourman without the Worlogog, just check out the early issues of JSA. He got his ass kicked like every other issue.

Regarding Paragon, how close does someone need to be for him to copy their powers?

Johnny Blaze

06-03-2005, 02:06 PM

A few more things...
Paragon will be allowed in season 3 as an Uber. Corp, far as I know his range for copying people is basically anyone who is fighting him in melee combat; IIRC, once they leave melee range, he loses their power(s).

The Android Hourman will be allowed without the Worlogog as an Uber.

The Thanos in question that might be allowed, though it's still very debatable, is from before his resurrection by Mistress Death. X know more about it than I, since I still have yet to read much of Thanos early appearances, especially his Captain Marvel ones. From what I gather, he's was powerful enough to fight and beat both Thor and the Thing at the same time though. So, unless there was some outside factor at play in that fight, I doubt that he'd be allowed given that he'd probably still be able to kick the crap out of the Surfer. :o :(
Like I said though, X knows more about it, so hopefully he can clear it up.

And does anyone object to me saying that the Superman/GL would have to give up the power ring like Validus has to?

The Leaguer

06-03-2005, 02:09 PM

Wouldn't Superman/GL without the ring just be Superman?

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 02:13 PM

Really, if you want to see effective methods of beating Hourman without the Worlogog, just check out the early issues of JSA. He got his ass kicked like every other issue.
What if I want to see effective methods for beating Hourman with the Worlogog? ;)

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 02:17 PM

That would be telling. ;) Besides, I don't recall any cases of him getting beaten outright when he had the Worlogog except for the Hourman virus scenario in One Million.

Regarding Thanos: Thor's powerful enough to give the Surfer a pretty even fight himself. Thanos seems too uber even at that level to me.

primemover

06-03-2005, 02:17 PM

Corp, the issue of Hourmans weakness to telepathy, do you think that is to all telepaths, or only to Tomorrow Woman's telepathy, being that she is a telepathic android?

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 02:21 PM

That's a question I've wondered about often myself. I personally think that Hourman is "human" enough to be susceptible to telepathy from anyone. He has synthetic everything, including synthetic genes based on those of Rex Tyler. I think his brain would be advanced enough to mimic a human's brain perfectly, albeit more efficiently, and would thus support a mind that's fully susceptible to telepathy just like any other person. It's all speculation on my part, of course, but there's also the fact that Tomorrow Woman's telepathy worked on normal people, despite the fact that she herself was an android. I think that implies that there's not a wide enough gulf between the minds of highly advanced synthetic beings like Tomorrow Woman and Hourman and the minds of human beings to bar telepathy from working effectively on all of them.

primemover

06-03-2005, 02:24 PM

Has there ever been an android, DC or Marvel that has been susceptible to telepathic attacks outside of that specific incident between Hourman III and Tomorrow Woman?

Johnny Blaze

06-03-2005, 02:26 PM

Wouldn't Superman/GL without the ring just be Superman?
Yep, which is why Harlekin would have to dump him, pick up another version of Supes, or work out a trade for the regular Man o' Steel.

Regarding Thanos: Thor's powerful enough to give the Surfer a pretty even fight himself. Thanos seems too uber even at that level to me. Yeah, which is why he'll more than likely be deemed Too Uber. But, I'd like to get the full story on it first from X before I make a final judgment on the character.

So, the only character left on the bubble is Thanos. Wow, this is going much faster and smoother than I originally thought it would. :o

primemover

06-03-2005, 02:31 PM

So, the only character left on the bubble is Thanos. Wow, this is going much faster and smoother than I originally thought it would. :o

Good, lets start Season 3 right now then!

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 02:42 PM

Has there ever been an android, DC or Marvel that has been susceptible to telepathic attacks outside of that specific incident between Hourman III and Tomorrow Woman?
I seem to recall telepathy being used against the Vision at some point ... but I could be making it up.

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 02:59 PM

Johnny Blaze

06-03-2005, 03:00 PM

But hey, if you guys want to give my Hourman immunity to telepathy, I won't argue. ;) No, I don't see that happening. :p

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 03:08 PM

primemover

06-03-2005, 03:14 PM

It's possible that people can't read Hourman's mind. Tomorrow Woman just hit him with a telepathic bolt. It might've just worked by throwing a surge into his brain's electrical systems or something. That'd work against androids and humans, since both have electricity running through their brains.

She also read his mind from what I remember.

I presumed that all androids were telepathy resistant and that that was an understood fact. I attributed Tomorrow Womans ability to muck with Hourman III's mind was due to the fact that she is a telepathic android, bridging that gap, and that is only a feat she can do.

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 03:18 PM

Oh yeah, she knew about the hour limit. Never mind. I don't know, for the DTL I think we should just interpret the thing with Tomorrow Woman to mean that Hourman is so advanced that his mind is accessible to human telepaths. All that means is that I have to provide telepathic defense for him, which I would've had in place for my other members anyway.

Guyverjay

06-03-2005, 03:26 PM

Pre crusis Saturn Girl could effect artificial intelligence

primemover

06-03-2005, 03:26 PM

So is Hourman a special case for androids, or does this open up a precedent for other sentient andriods, like Amazo and Red Tornado, to be susceptable to telepathic attack?

Guyverjay

06-03-2005, 03:28 PM

Telepathy is pretty useless in the DTL:o

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 03:32 PM

Yeah, it really is. There's too many ways around it, which is why I never have an uber psychic on my team.
So is Hourman a special case for androids, or does this open up a precedent for other sentient andriods, like Amazo and Red Tornado, to be susceptable to telepathic attack?
I'd consider Hourman a special case. Remember, he's not just an android, he's an android from 850,000 years in the future. Anything created today or in the near future would probably not mimic humanity enough to be susceptible to telepathy.

primemover

06-03-2005, 03:34 PM

Nah, I think Tomorrow Woman just has the ability to use her telepathy on sentient andriods! :)

06-03-2005, 04:35 PM

Telepathy is pretty useless in the DTL:o

It's in the same boat as speed. Useful, but fickle. If you felt so inclinced you could just mind zap a bunch of regulars, as some teams, you know, don't have psi shields, tech or otherwise.

And what do you want to know, Blaze? How powerful old Thanos was?

He could take The Thing and Thor down at once, but he had to work for it. Thor stood up to him for a pretty decent time, actually. Captain Mar-Vell, using all of his skill, stood up to Thanos for a damned long time, one on one. Mar-Vell was badass though, he could stand up to old Drax for a comic and a half before being beaten. Hell, did the same thing to The Surfer once. :up:

One potrayal that always bugs me though... Thanos one shotted Drax. Drax was crazy pissed and Thanos just casually blasted him once, fight over. Than again, that was a back up story in the crappy comic line Logan's Run. Not exactly like they had lot of space. I look towards the other Drax/Thanos planet destroying feat as an actual realistic fight.

XFanTim

06-03-2005, 07:45 PM

JB, try this thread for a list of Thanos feats. It's chronological, so pre-death stuff first.

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79429&start=0

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 08:02 PM

Er... this is one of his earliest feats on that thread:
http://img49.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img49&image=avengers33ad.jpg
http://img33.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img33&image=avengers40jp.jpg

2 eyebeams and he puts Thor down for the count?

06-03-2005, 10:02 PM

That wasn't exactly the entire fight, and Thor wasn't exactly done in.

TheCorpulent1

06-03-2005, 10:03 PM

Was that instance in Quasar where Thanos blasted through a quantum bubble that Hulk, Thor, Thing, Hercules, and others couldn't dent pre-death?

Johnny Blaze

06-04-2005, 12:34 AM

No, it appears that it was post-death.

JB, try this thread for a list of Thanos feats. It's chronological, so pre-death stuff first.

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79429&start=0 Yeah, after looking through that thread, even in his early appearances he seems to be Too Uber. Sucks, because he's my favorite comic character and all, but them's the breaks. :(

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 09:45 AM

Yeah, I guess that's what happens when your favorite character is a cheap plot device most of the time. ;) :p

Johnny Blaze

06-04-2005, 12:31 PM

You just lost my vote. :(

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 01:10 PM

Well, I'm glad you agree, but I don't think it would work quite like that. I mean, I don't think there's any rule about a character "disappearing" if they get too powerful, only that they just aren't allowed to get that powerful. Let's say JB chose to have one of next seasons matches on Galactus's world ship (with Galactus still on board). If Paragon went and stood next to Galactus, he wouldn't disappear, he just wouldn't be allowed to copy Galactus's full power.

As far as copying powers of actual DTL characters, I don't really see how that could make him too uber. Even if Silver Surfer is the pinacle of next seasons DTL, Paragon standing next to him isn't a more powerful Silver Surfer, he's a more powerful Silver Surfer who loses his powers unless he can stay standing next to the real Surfer. I'm not convinced that's better. I guess you could say "But what if your other uber and both of your opponent's ubers were standing right next to him? Then you could end up with someone who had the powers of, say, Dr. Strange, Fernus, and Silver Surfer. Surely that would be too uber?" But (1) it's unlikely that Paragon could get all the other participants in the battle to just stand next to him, and (2) He'd still have the weakness that he could be instantly rendered powerless by everyone moving away from him.

At any rate, I don't think there needs to be some artificial cap on how much power Paragon can copy from his opponents. You shouldn't be able to just have Validus and the Hulk stand next to him and pound the crap out of him, on the basis that no one in the DTL can be stronger than Validus and the Hulk put together. The whole point of the character is that you can't overwhelm him with brute force like that, and instead you have to exploit his weaknesses.wasn't your whole thing about Paragon that when inside his aura he can copy the character(S) powers, but just alittle better

Guyverjay

06-04-2005, 01:13 PM

Its all well and good saying you have to exploirt his weakness but when 99-100% of the characters in this DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW HIS WEAKNESS. It becomes a different ball game entirely:o

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 01:21 PM

Brainiac transfers his mind into an android body at the end of the Doomsday Wars. I don't know if that counts though, since the android was just an empty shell with no mind of its own.

But hey, if you guys want to give my Hourman immunity to telepathy, I won't argue. ;)i don't know. his flunky set it up as a fail safe and he said he'd never be able to leave that body.

O yea, i read hunter/prey(A+) and DoomsDay Wars(B+) yesterday. Jb would you just put DDW at the end of my DoomsDays name? the only reaason i want that version is that he has a telepathic block that Supes left on'm after he ousted Brainiac.

Guyverjay

06-04-2005, 01:23 PM

Bah I think not

Doomsday wars Dooms is MINE

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 01:25 PM

Telepathy is pretty useless in the DTL:o:rolleyes:yea it is:rolleyes:

enough so that every team has found a was of working around it. and if you haven't, you lose. I really can't think of a team right off the bat that doesn't have some sort of telepathic power or resistant on thier team

06-04-2005, 01:29 PM

No, it appears that it was post-death.

Yeah, after looking through that thread, even in his early appearances he seems to be Too Uber. Sucks, because he's my favorite comic character and all, but them's the breaks. :(

What about Thanos in the Thanos copter? I'd say he's a regular. :up: :(

Or the Thanos that was beaten by the LYPD. :( :D

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 01:32 PM

Bah I think not

Doomsday wars Dooms is MINEtheres not enough difference between any of the Doomsdays to have 2 out there. i forget who dropped doomsday in the first place, but that was a MAJOR mistake. I liked doomsday before, but after reading Hunter/Prey(thee oppitomy of doomsday), the only thing i needed ws that extra telepathic resistance for forge to copy and thats one less thing my Stryfe has to combat.

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 01:35 PM

:rolleyes:yea it is:rolleyes:

enough so that every team has found a was of working around it. and if you haven't, you lose. I really can't think of a team right off the bat that doesn't have some sort of telepathic power or resistant on thier team
I don't get it, are you being sarcastic? :confused: The fact that everyone has telepathic defenses is why it's not effective in the DTL anymore. Especially now that the uber-duber telepaths like "Burnt Offering" Cable are gone, so they can't just break through everyone's telepathic defenses.

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 01:38 PM

I don't get it, are you being sarcastic? :confused: The fact that everyone has telepathic defenses is why it's not effective in the DTL anymore.but its important enough that people have found ways to combat it. if it wasn't important, no-one would care.

so in other words, telepathy is very important in the dtl. if you don't think so, don't bring the power or resistance to battle with me.

Johnny Blaze

06-04-2005, 01:54 PM

What about Thanos in the Thanos copter? I'd say he's a regular. :up: :(

Or the Thanos that was beaten by the LYPD. :( :D
Replace that "Y" with an "A" and that would rock. :D :up:

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 01:55 PM

It was important enough for people to find ways around it, but now that they have, it's useless. If you don't think so, bring a team of telepaths who are completely regular humans otherwise and see how long they last against the other team's powerhouses who'll inevitably have psi-blockers.

Guyverjay

06-04-2005, 02:03 PM

Yup AS always has to make a something out of nothing:o

Guyverjay

06-04-2005, 02:06 PM

theres not enough difference between any of the Doomsdays to have 2 out there. i forget who dropped doomsday in the first place, but that was a MAJOR mistake. I liked doomsday before, but after reading Hunter/Prey(thee oppitomy of doomsday), the only thing i needed ws that extra telepathic resistance for forge to copy and thats one less thing my Stryfe has to combat.

Ahem Doomsday Brainiac IS Doomsday wars Doomsday. Its HIM with Brainiac along for the ride. (
I had the original DDW Dooms and then bumped him up to Dooms brainy originally) If the added telepathy is considered too uber then obviously he'll have to be depowered ie put back down to DDW Dooms just like my GL Val is now just plain old Val.

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 02:07 PM

Yup, thats how some people take me. but i'm not. I'm just proving a point.

He wouldn't eter a battle against a telepath with protection. thats the bottom line, if ya sssssssssssssssmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllll what the telepaths are cookin.

O and BTW, if telepathy isn't that important, why is Xavier uber?

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 02:11 PM

Power level and a power's effectiveness when people know it's coming are two different things. These days, a lot of people throw up psychic shields even if they're not facing a telepath, either just in case or because they want a mental link so as not to give away their battle plans on the field by yelling them to their teammates for all to hear. But it doesn't really matter one way or another; if you dig your telepaths, more power to you. I was just agreeing with someone else.

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 02:13 PM

Ahem Doomsday Brainiac IS Doomsday wars Doomsday. Its HIM with Brainiac along for the ride.
I had the original DDW Dooms and then bumped him up to Dooms brainy (originally) If the added telepathy is considered too uber then obviously he'll have to be depowered and put back down to DDW Doomsday just like my GL Validus is now just plain old Val.no Doomsday/Brainiac is Doomsday with Brainiac only for the ride. Doomsday(DDW) is Doomsday with the telepathic resistant device on his neck that Supes left there.

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 02:16 PM

That's what Guyver said: Doomsday/Brainiac = Doomsday Wars Doomsday with Brainiac. :confused:

AnnoyingSilence

06-04-2005, 02:23 PM

ok follow along people.

Doomsday/Brainiac = Doomsdays body, Brainiacs control and Telepathy
Doomsday(DDW) = after Brainy left(because Supes put the resistant on) and Doomsday still has the device on.

DDW was all about Doomsday/Brainiac, yes, but i'm not going for the combonation. Even if i was(which i'm not), with the resistor on Brainy would just be exiled at the very begining of each pre-battle.

TheCorpulent1

06-04-2005, 02:28 PM

I'll just let Guyverjay explain it to you. His explanation'll probably be funnier and more effective than mine anyway. :(

06-04-2005, 02:46 PM

Replace that "Y" with an "A" and that would rock. :D :up:

........

What? :confused:

Ahem Doomsday Brainiac IS Doomsday wars Doomsday. Its HIM with Brainiac along for the ride. (
I had the original DDW Dooms and then bumped him up to Dooms brainy originally) If the added telepathy is considered too uber then obviously he'll have to be depowered ie put back down to DDW Dooms just like my GL Val is now just plain old Val.

Another thing, well, that I just want to throw out there... I always see people on other boards especially mentioning OWAW Doomsday and all of that... Like, 10 seconds passed for Doomsday in between Hunter/Prey, Doomsday Wars, and then OWAW. :D

XFanTim

06-05-2005, 12:02 AM

Its all well and good saying you have to exploit his weakness but when 99-100% of the characters in this DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW HIS WEAKNESS. It becomes a different ball game entirely:o
Well, yeah, but it doesn't seem that hard to write a story in which his opponents figure out how to beat him. (I mean, that's what the JLA did, right?) The owner going up against him just needs to make sure to have someone in their lineup who Paragon can't copy, like Iron Man or Green Lantern. Then, have the characters say something like "Man, the moment we got close to this guy he started hitting us with all our own powers! But for some reason, he hasn't used Iron Man's powers. Hmm . . . maybe he can't copy technology. Hey everybody, let's back off and just let Iron Man fight him!"

Of course, with a little better writing it wouldn't sound so unspeakably lame. So anyway, yes, the fact that the characters won't know his weakness is an advantage, but given that the owner will no his weakness, they can work around it. And anyway, given that DTL characters remember things from battle to battle, and even from season to season, eventually many teams will have someone who knows him.

TheCorpulent1

06-05-2005, 12:11 AM

That seems kind of contrived, but I can see a few ways that it'd work. Beating Paragon shouldn't be too hard, he's limited in similar ways to Nemesis Kid. Just don't let yourself fall prey to the things he's good at and he should be cake.

AnnoyingSilence

06-05-2005, 02:53 AM

I'll just let Guyverjay explain it to you. His explanation'll probably be funnier and more effective than mine anyway. :(it can't really be explained any clearer. we can pick a character from a certain spot in thier "life" and go with it. Thats what i'm going with.

Guyverjay

06-05-2005, 04:42 AM

BTW when Dooms was released from that transporter in OWAW he was still telepathically nudged by Manchester Black:)

AnnoyingSilence

06-05-2005, 08:55 AM

meaning?

TheCorpulent1

06-05-2005, 09:07 AM

Meaning the psi-blocker either wasn't on him or it doesn't block really powerful telepaths.

06-05-2005, 11:14 AM

Meh, Manchester black gave him the smallest of notions. So instead of smashing a, he went after b. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Manchester Black is a more powerful telepath than The Manhunter, so it's not like too many people are going to be able to give Doomsday the prod on in this thing and make it stick.

Guyverjay

06-05-2005, 11:16 AM

Hence why I said " nudged":up:

I thought ity was a bit crappy that he was able to effect him at all to be honest:o

06-05-2005, 11:26 AM

Meh, I was just elaborating.

Guyverjay

06-05-2005, 11:28 AM

LOL

Didn't notice the Avi until now:D

06-05-2005, 12:15 PM

:) :up:

06-05-2005, 12:24 PM

By the way, what are we going to do about the too ubers that aren't being used right now? I think we should get together Blaze on Messenger, with a few other Hype members and maybe brainstorm a list of too ubers. Because, quite frankly, I don't want to see things almost grind to a half mid season because we need to debate one character or another, might as well just clear it up now.

The Runner comes to mind, just to name one.

AnnoyingSilence

06-05-2005, 01:47 PM

ok, thru all of that... what i'm getting is it takes a telepath like MB, Psimon, Stryfe or Cable to break thru it. but with forge on my team... don't you think i can give it a little boost(Very Easily)?

The Leaguer

06-05-2005, 01:54 PM

Don't forget MM and Fernus.

AnnoyingSilence

06-05-2005, 01:59 PM

yeayeayeeaa:rolleyes:

AnnoyingSilence

06-10-2005, 11:35 AM

bump

TheCorpulent1

06-10-2005, 03:08 PM

I have an issue with the Silver Surfer. Apparently, according to X, he can manipulate time on top of all of his other powers in just about every way Hourman can. Now, please, someone explain to me how the hell a being who can manipulate all types of energy in unlimited quantities and means, transmute organic and inorganic matter, manipulate time, AND move beyond light speed is not uber by next season's standards. Or is it ok because he's the Silver Surfer, so he's a pacifist and everybody just wants him in?

06-10-2005, 03:21 PM

Well, not in unlimited quantities. But, yeah, point still stands.

Looking at his high end feats, he probably is too uber. Travelling hundreds of times the speed of light in the Infinity Gauntlet, easily diving into suns/taking beatings from an enraged Hulk, destroying planets in fights with Morg, killing Thor... I don't know, there's definitely a comfortable middle ground with him though... So, I say, keep him.

TheCorpulent1

06-10-2005, 03:23 PM

The way I see it, that middle ground is gonna degenerate into the Surfer being portrayed a certain way most of the time, but just magically showing new powers whenever they're needed, like a walking deus ex machina. And no one can say anything about it because, apparently, it's canon, straight from the comics.

XFanTim

06-10-2005, 03:32 PM

06-10-2005, 03:51 PM

I would think that excessive abuse of time powers (whether by Surfer, Hourman, whoever) would be against at least the spirit of the rules, if not the rules themselves, and would (A) cost someone votes, and (B) run the risk of getting their character banned.

I do have a question about Surfer, can he actually fight at light speed? I.e., throwing punches, dodging blows, etc. Or is it basically just that he can fly faster than light? Being able to fly faster than light doesn't strike me as that big a deal (although maybe if he used some cheap hit-and-run tactics), but being able to fight that fast (like the Flash, but moreso) would be just ridiculous. Then again, if Surfer moves that fast in a fight, I can't understand why people like Thor (who doesn't have Flash-like speed, so far as I'm aware) have been able to hit him.

Thor's pretty damned quick himself regardless.

And The Surfer reaction time thing is hazy. A lot of his speed feats are in a straight line, but I have seen him zipping around, dodging Kree laser fire from tons of ships in space, tagging the ships with his own blasts, not slowing down. And this is with him looping around and all that. So, yeah, his perceptions are up there with his speed.