Dream Team League (Discussion)

[X]

I don't think leaving the uber bar where it is and changing the line-ups would help. In fact, I think it'd hurt. If one owner puts a mage down as his uber, the other owner pretty much has no recourse except to a) put their own mage up or b) double-team the mage with two or more of their guys. I think you get a greater variety of strategic choices with two ubers than with two middleweights.

Frankly, if it's a real concern to more people, I wouldn't mind lowering the uber bar and losing the likes of Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer and even Thor. Whatever makes the game more fun.

No option but putting another mage against them?

How about putting any Herald against them? Or any Green Lantern?

We're talking similar scope of power and versatility as well.

Mages don't and never have had spotless records against other top tiers. Silver Surfer and Strange have fought multiple times and it's never clear cut either way.

The same applies to multiple top tiers vs. Strange and Fate, unless you can bring up multiple instances of mages clearly in comics dominating the likes of Superman, Thor, whoever.

Speaking of Thor, he's also fought Strange evenly.

[X]

Mages don't add creativity, because they're too versatile. When you have a character who can do anything you want, you don't need to be creative. Say you're fighting Android Hourman (who may be too uber, but whatever). With a mage, you don't have to think of a creative way around his time manipulation. You just say, "Dr. Strange uses a spell to counter Hourman's time manipulation." Because, truth be told, Dr. Strange probably does have an anti-time-manipulation spell. He's Doctor Freakin' Strange!

Simple solution - Mages can only use the abilities spells they've been shown using in comics.

There's a complete list of spells and abilities that Strange has used over the years online. And there's a respect thread showing basically everything Dr. Fate done in the 60 years he's been around.

They don't have solutions for everything, nor do Green Lanterns. On paper they can do anything but that's not how they operate in comics nor is it how they should operate in the league.

The price you pay for using a mage should be researching and figuring out what they have done in comics and sticking to that, not saying "They wave their hands and do such and such". Because that's A)Bull**** and B)Short selling the mages being available for use.

[AnnoyingSilence]

suber thing should stick... someone like thanos, Cable (Burnt Offering) and so on do really have the power of two ubers.(my question is: since subers = 2 ubers, does that person now have 11 instead of 12 in thier full roster?)

i'm sure we'll sort out more characters as the league progresses

as for mages. they should be labled as suber. nothing can stop magic except stronger magic...

locking the line-ups for the first weeek? sure., after a week for me to straightin out my roster. i know i'm not very balanced and will need a better look at it to make even a legal team

[X]

as for mages. they should be labled as suber. nothing can stop magic except stronger magic...

Bull****, now with 15% more nonsense! :wow: :oldrazz:

[LadyVader]

Simple solution - Mages can only use the abilities spells they've been shown using in comics.

There's a complete list of spells and abilities that Strange has used over the years online. And there's a respect thread showing basically everything Dr. Fate done in the 60 years he's been around.

They don't have solutions for everything, nor do Green Lanterns. On paper they can do anything but that's not how they operate in comics nor is it how they should operate in the league.

The price you pay for using a mage should be researching and figuring out what they have done in comics and sticking to that, not saying "They wave their hands and do such and such". Because that's A)Bull**** and B)Short selling the mages being available for use.

Oh come on, so I'm suposed to research every single spell that Dr Strange ever used and possibly could use against me?
I say get rid of mages all together. The object is to make it more fun not more complicated!

[X]

I just said that there's a complete list of every spell and it's use that Strange has ever used online. Same goes for Dr. Fate.

You want to use the characters, take the time to read up on them a little.

[X]

How many people are going to be in this again, total?

I honestly think we need to delay the start of the season at least until we have something like a half dozen new people. At least.

Apathy's going to set in again without new blood. We've been screwing around with the DTL for years and the same thing keeps happening.

[X]

There really needs to be more activity in this ****ing thing. :(

[Harlekin]

I'm still here. I just find all this talk about ubers and superubers hella boring.

[X]

An idea that might breath some life into this...

Someone, sometime during the season is going to be unable to post a write-up. It's just going to happen, lifes going to get in the way.

What if we delay a week a handful of days to allow for someone to post a write-up?

The league isn't going anywhere and it'd basically allow for a %100 participation rate.

Of course we wouldn't put it on hold forever, but why adhere to an ultra strict schedule that's going to let some teams get free passes?

I say we make things a little more flexible.

[XFanTim]

If we do that, it should probably at least be limited to one time per player, so we don't have one person holding things up every week.

Another problem with the top tier guys, whether it's mages or heralds or whatever, is that they tend to be the most inconsistent. In one appearance, Dr. Strange gets knocked out by a troll, in another he has perpetual automatic forcefields that protect him against everything. The problem is DTL players tend to always pick the portrayals that make their characters look good.

[X]

Law of averages.

Every top tier, I repeat, EVERY top tier has showings just as varied as Strange's.

Thor's been knocked out by falling mortar.

Superman once struggled with a falling helipcopter, and struggled to support the Planet's globe.

The Hulk's been knocked out by a falling cement truck, and choked out by a snake.

The Silver Surfer got held in a armbar by The Black Panther, and was KO'ed by poison soup.

Hal Jordan was knocked out by a tree branch.

I could go on all day.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think that's what Tim just said. :confused:

[X]

I elaborated on his point?

[Nightwing.]

i like the idea of locked trades on the first week....it will show just how well people can research their characters and also how well they can create a winning strategy

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I'm for it. It's only one week.

[Tropico]

Wow, completely surprised there's more people for lowering the bar than rising/keeping it (as is).:up: That might be something worth exploring, the bar could always be raised at "half time" of the season and change up the strategies that would be used. Of course, the whole new ranking system, if it goes, should be ironed out before getting there.

[Nightwing.]

well like i said earlier with the whole Suber rank i personally think thats excessive cos there will be a very very thin line between legal subers and illegal tubers.where as if there is a high uber and low uber as well as medium and reg then there is still the variation of the two uber ranks so for instance 2 low ubers can be used or just one high uber or are people wanting 2 high ubers as a legal line up?

and where would the line be drawn for mediums and low ubers cos if im not mistaken last season Replicant started as a medium and soon got bumped up but surely he would jump to high uber....so what power levels would constitute as enough to push up from medium to low uber and where would the line be drawn for low uber and high uber?

[X]

When was Replicant ever a middlweight?

That sounds more like an accidental mess-up than some travesty of ranking.

[Nightwing.]

he was medium for a good few weeks cos i had him on my team....it was a mistake cos it was reviewed after i had dropped him and i think guyver grabbed him and JB had him review it (so back when JB was commish)

[X]

No big deal then.

He's basically a walking Flash rogues gallery. Really powerful.

What's going on with the draft, Wieg?

[Nightwing.]

oh yeah i know about his power.....he is a really cool character and i enjoyed writing him.

the point i was making when i brought him up was if he jumped from med to high uber where is the line between med and low uber?

[X]

He was an uber to begin with, he simply was mis-labeled at first.

There's never really been a lot of controversy over middlweights.

The Thing, Colossus, She-Hulk...

What's to debate?

[Nightwing.]

well the debate is that they are considering a high uber and low uber ranking system to accompany the medium and reg ranks....what i want to know is who would class as high uber and who would class as low uber and what would a medium have to achieve to fall under the 'ooo he could be low uber'?

[X]

I don't think there'd be any low regulars or low middlweights. I think splitting up the ubers would only apply to them.

They're the only real ranking with any amount of controversy around them.

I ask again, when's the draft?

[wiegeabo]

I don't think there'd be any low regulars or low middlweights. I think splitting up the ubers would only apply to them.

They're the only real ranking with any amount of controversy around them.

I ask again, when's the draft?

Have a little patience X. You don't want the season to start until we've worked everything out, but you want the draft? How can we draft if uber rankings and other rules are up in the air?

This means I'm putting the draft on hold. Which just gives us more time to put lists together. I've actually gotten a couple of lists. Problem is, they have very few characters on them. Now, I've wanted to talk about this, so let me explain why that's a problem for everyone.

For this example, I'll just be looking at one ranking. Let's say the regulars.

For the draft, everyone will have four regulars. Now, with eight teams, that means 32 regs will be picked in the draft. Let's say you put together a list with 14 regs on it. After the first round of drafting, 8 regulars will be taken (1 for your team, 7 for the others). If all 8 of these regs were on your list, you now only have 6 regs left. If those 6 regs are taken in the next round, you've got no more regulars on your draft list. What happens now? You only have 1 regular, and I have no way of giving you any more.

That's why it's important to have at least 32 regulars on your draft list. So, even if every other owner, in every round, picks a reg on your list, that 28 regs taken (7 owners x 4 regs). Which still leaves you 4 left unclaimed on your list that you will get, which is exactly what you need for the draft.

And since this is the same process used for each rank, that's 96 characters needed on your complete list (3 ranks x 32 characters). It is true that if you pick obscure characters that no one else will have on their lists, the odds of them being taken go way down, and you can probably get by with shorter lists. (I haven't looked closely at the lists turned in, so I don't know if that's what's happening.) But there is still no guarantee unless you have at least 32 characters in each rank.


I know this seems like a lot, but in the Season 4 Update thread alone there are over 200 legal characters listed. (Well, characters that are still legal as of this moment). That's twice the number I'm asking for. If nothing else, everyone could just take that list, move some characters up and down, and turn it in. And now that I've put the draft on hold, everyone should have the time to get longer lists together. Heck, if you just do 20 characters a day you're done in less than a week.

[X]

Wieg, I wasn't asking it in a "Rush rush" way. I was just curious.

I'll turn in a more fleshed out list to make that easier.

I think I found a new DTL'er too, and I'm asking around more beyond that first person too, so lets keep our fingers crossed.

[wiegeabo]

Wieg, I wasn't asking it in a "Rush rush" way. I was just curious.

I'll turn in a more fleshed out list to make that easier.

I think I found a new DTL'er too, and I'm asking around more beyond that first person too, so lets keep our fingers crossed.


That's ok. That's just how it sounded in the impersonal text that is the forum.

And another DTL'er is fine if they're willing to hang the whole season. As it is I think we have nine teams. And I'm good with going to 12 (although that means our draftlists have to be even longer :p). I want to avoid 16 teams this season until we figure out just how much time the shorter writeups will save us.


Let's see, there me, X, Corp/Leag, LV, Ahura/Bull, Kaboom, AS, Harl, 'Wing.

[X]

We're going to become stagnant, Wieg. Everyone there's an old member of this thing. Honest to god, we need some fresh blood.

Getting 4-5 new people in here is the minimum we should be aiming for, honestly. I think bigger lists is a small price to pay for this thing working.

[wiegeabo]

I think the reason we became stagnant last time is because the veterans had become burned out, and all the new blood we did bring in took off just a couple of weeks into the last season.

Now we've taken almost a year off, we're getting some lively discussions going, and we've shortened the weekly work load.

I don't have a problem bringing in new blood (or old blood) and going up to 12 teams. But I want to avoid 16 teams because that's going to increase that work load we just reduced with shorter matches.

[X]

Everyones going the condensed route though, so it's all relative.

What would become harder with more players?

Everyone was a newbie in the DTL at one time. Some people are going to stick with it. Just have to weed out the ones that are going t drop out. How I look at it anyway.

[Tropico]

well the debate is that they are considering a high uber and low uber ranking system to accompany the medium and reg ranks....what i want to know is who would class as high uber and who would class as low uber and what would a medium have to achieve to fall under the 'ooo he could be low uber'?

From what I understand... I don't think people want to risk complicating things more by exploring Mediums that are close to being Uber and maybe bumping them up to low ubers. The line defining an Uber is clear, the new rank (I think) is meant to separate Ubers from borderline Too Ubers so that people don't abuse having 2 "almost Too Ubers" while the opposing team has one or none. I see it as compromise to avoid the abuse of power.

[X]

Tropico nailed it.

Really, it's pretty simple.

High end uber villians are the easiest to distinguish from the rest. Characters that fought and have beaten multiple top tiers at the same time.

Thanos & Despero come to mind as DC/Marvel examples.

[X]

Anyway, if we do go the superuber route, would that mean some previously taboo character would be allowed?

Asgardian Destroyer or some such.

Or should we just leave well enough alone and not do the new uber ranking thing period?

[X]

Honest question... How much does a character being a "big name" factor into them having your respect and or vote if put against a more obscure character?

How many people actually give full respect to an obscure character they know nothing about? Are you more likely to just vote for Thanos than the high end uber that's facing him that you've never heard of?

Does having to follow a link and read up on said obscure character diminish anything for you?

Want honest opinions.

[wiegeabo]

That's a really good question. I'm going to have to think about it.


...honestly, I'm going to have to think back on how I felt during the prior seasons.

[The Leaguer]

I don't vote for people who don't have their own comic.

[Nightwing.]

i will vote for people based on what i read in either the links provided or in the performance in the actual write up

[XFanTim]

Law of averages.

Every top tier, I repeat, EVERY top tier has showings just as varied as Strange's.

Thor's been knocked out by falling mortar.

Superman once struggled with a falling helipcopter, and struggled to support the Planet's globe.

The Hulk's been knocked out by a falling cement truck, and choked out by a snake.

The Silver Surfer got held in a armbar by The Black Panther, and was KO'ed by poison soup.

Hal Jordan was knocked out by a tree branch.

I could go on all day.
True, but I think there's a little difference between:
(1) Variations in the level of someone's powers (e.g., in some appearances Superman is stronger/more durable than in others)
(2) Variations in what powers people have (e.g., does Thor have superspeed or not?)
(3) Just plain stupid losses.

It's really only (2) that concerns me. With (1), we can average over the appearances to get an idea of how powerful someone is. With (3), we can just ignore it. But the problem with someone who has powers that they only use occasionally is that there's nothing to stop a DTL owner from using those abilities all the time. Often, the person who owns the character knows them better than the person they're facing, so the other player doesn't really have the knowledge to object.

E.g., I've seen Dr. Strange knocked out by getting hit with a surprise attack on more than one occasion. However, I've also seen him avoid an attack from behind by means of some sort of sixth sense. So if I have Dr. Strange and someone takes him out with a surprise hit, what's to stop me from saying "Oh, you forgot about his sixth sense that warns him of surprise attacks" and posting the scans to back me up. Even if there's other scans out there that shows that some writers do let Strange get taken out by surprise attacks, my opponent doesn't necessarily know this, so they end up taking my word for it that they made a mistake.

Of course, this isn't just a problem for Dr. Strange -- although mystic and/or cosmic characters are in my opinion the worst offenders for having random powers they only use once in a blue moon.

[XFanTim]

Having thought more about it, though, the one thing that really bugs me about some of the top-tier characters is the sort of writing they lend themselves to. The problem, I think, is a lack of clearly defined vulnerabilities. I don't mean cheezy silver-age weaknesses like "I can't affect yellow", or "I'm scared of fire", I mean weaknesses: kinds of attacks a character doesn't have a defense against.

If I'm fighting Superman, I could beat him with good strategy and a couple regulars. Say, Lex Luthor and Blink. Luthor knows of Supes kryptonite weakness and could get his hands on the stuff, and Blink could teleport a chunk of it into his heart. Game over. (Of course, Luthor would lie and tell Blink kryptonite only knocks superman out, not kills him.) But even if Superman wasn't weak against kryptonite, he could be beaten by a ruthless teleporter who teleports his head off his body, or a sufficiently powerful telepath who controls his mind, or someone who could absorb the solar energy that powers him, etc. He has lots of vulnerabilities that can be exploited.

I can also think of vulnerabilities for Green Lantern (disrupt his ability to concentrate), or even Martian Manhunter (e.g., disrupt his molecular structure so he can't control his shapeshifting). But for someone like Silver Surfer or Dr. Strange, what are their vulnerabilities? Other than instant kills like Adam Warlock's soul stealing or Johnny Sorrow's death gaze, is there any attack they don't have a defense against?

The problem with guys without clear weaknesses is that the fights all tend to be "My guy hits you with a dozen awesome attacks, yours hits me with a dozen awesome attacks, the earth quakes, mountains fall, and finally, one guy lies defeated." In other words, it isn't about finding a winning strategy, so much as finding the most epic, grandiose way of saying "My guy overpowers your guy."

When I was writing a fight with mages or cosmics my basic approach was always the same -- make sure each guy gets to run through a bunch of their powers, make it looks like the fight could go either way, and then finally my guy wins (possibly with an assist from a teammate who's finished their battle). In other words, I tried to demonstrate a solid knowlege of the characters, I made sure I couldn't be accused of shortchanging my opponent, and beyond that I trusted dramatic writing to carry the day.

Truth be told, though, those weren't really fun battles for me to write. There's a difference between drama and strategy. Finding a way to take down Superman with a couple of good regulars at least requires a little cleverness. "Convincing" people that Dr. Strange would beat Dr. Fate really just comes down to who can write more engaging prose. For those who love cranking out grandiose writing, I guess that's great -- but for me that's just kind of dull, and not really what I think the DTL should be about.

Plus, it makes your success rate much more a function of how much time you're willing to spend writing -- when it should be more about how good a strategy you have. But like I said, there really isn't any great strategy for beating Dr. Strange or Silver Surfer that I know of, since they haven't really got any consistent vulerabilities.

[XFanTim]

Short version (for those who don't like to read):

- Some characters (Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Sliver Surfer, maybe Adam Warlock) have an answer for almost every kind of attack.
- This means there's no great way to beat them with strategy, and the fights end up being longwinded versions of "They hit each other with a lot of attacks and eventually my guy breaks through your guy's shields"
- The winner ends up being decided on who wrote the most dramatic version of the fight, rather than strategy.
- That's bad in and of itself, and it also encourages people to write a ton so they can make it "more epic"

I'm not sure whether the answer is something like my original idea of making those who use a super-versatile uber downgrade another character to medium, or just banning them altogether, or something else. Maybe I'm the only one who even minds. For my part, by the end of a season I was sick to death of writing the umpteenth "epic clash of the cosmic titans".

[XFanTim]

On another note:
With regard to the draft, is it really a good idea to have separate lists for uber, medium and reg? What if a guy really wants a particular medium, to the point where they'd be willing to take one less uber to get him? Shouldn't they be allowed to do it?

I'm thinking maybe it would make sense to have one big list for each owner, ranked in whatever order they value the characters. Maybe they could just put a cap on how many ubers they want, how many mediums they want, etc. I.e., if I say, "I want three ubers" and I get my three, then all other ubers on my draft list would be ignored.

Another idea: Rather than having to come up with a list of dozens of people, why not split the draft into two parts? Everyone could come up with a shorter list, then we draft the first six on each team, and then based on who you got you could come up with a list for the second half of the draft. Not only do you save time making your list, but you can factor in the early picks when you're filling the rest of the roster spots.

[LadyVader]

I'm all for whatever simplifies the draft.

[The Leaguer]

I went straight from Nightwing's post to LV's.

[X]

That's a really good question. I'm going to have to think about it.


...honestly, I'm going to have to think back on how I felt during the prior seasons.

I think we should try and encourage some kind of bias free voting. Make people take into consideration what's been written and not how well a characters known.

[X]

I can also think of vulnerabilities for Green Lantern (disrupt his ability to concentrate), or even Martian Manhunter (e.g., disrupt his molecular structure so he can't control his shapeshifting). But for someone like Silver Surfer or Dr. Strange, what are their vulnerabilities? Other than instant kills like Adam Warlock's soul stealing or Johnny Sorrow's death gaze, is there any attack they don't have a defense against?

I agree with you, by and far.

Surfer has plenty of weaknesses of his own, though. Off the top of my head...

1)Being cut off from his source of power. Kree tech and a Middlweight called The Midnight Son did this, locking him in an ebon black cube where he was powerless. On a higher level of power, the Stranger did the exact same thing to him.

2)Magic. Like Quasar, another high kind cosmic hero, he's got no protection against it. He's been KO'ed by more than one magical attack, and got run through with a magical dagger once, almost killing him.

3)Mindset. Norrin isn't as efficient or battle as almost any other uber. He's more than a little prone to not finishing the job or just holding back.

There are others, too.

[Tropico]

I think we should try and encourage some kind of bias free voting. Make people take into consideration what's been written and not how well a characters known.

Not to spark a fight, but I doubt that will ever happen. Bias will always be a big part of this. Sometimes knowing a hero or villain more can be detrimental because you perceive the character in a negative fashion; not knowing said character might actually be beneficial instead of detrimental.

For example: Mano. You consider him somewhat of a badass. I consider him a character with destructive potential that's easy to take out. Someone who doesn't know about the character might be more even handed than either of us in regards to how to use him. Or not.:p

Or, when a character is a favorite of many of the posters it might also sway the votes. I remember one of the matches I had with Corp, he had Batgirl and I had Deathstroke. This was way before they fought in the comics and at that time she was a character a lot of people had a positive bias for, almost considering unbeatable in hand to hand.

Sure, you guys can call for "bias free" voting and it's a commendable idea, I just don't see it happening. And it would be unfair, almost ridiculous, for people to get into fights because of it.

We'll have to see if condensed write ups can still make obscure or semi-obscure characters shine enough to be taken into consideration.

[X]

I don't expect anything approaching 100% bias free voting, I just figured it'd be worth the effort to try and get some kind of thing going where we did our absolute best to put bias aside to some degree... And to give obscure characters a chance.

[AnnoyingSilence]

Bull****, now with 15% more nonsense! :wow: :oldrazz::hyper: I love you too, buddyHow many people are going to be in this again, total?

I honestly think we need to delay the start of the season at least until we have something like a half dozen new people. At least.

Apathy's going to set in again without new blood. We've been screwing around with the DTL for years and the same thing keeps happening.Couldn't have said it better myself.

I say forget about the League shtick and have tournaments once in a while.

[AnnoyingSilence]

i'm not ever readin this page...wow.... now i remember why i never get on here... too much talkin(FOREVER about) stuff that can be solved easily and without 5 pages of banter.

but its pointless to say what i think, because its only gonna bring a cynical opposer thats gonna either start ANOTHER debate or just down play the idea.

I just wish i was in control of the dtl..

[Johnny Blaze]

i'm not ever readin this page...wow.... now i remember why i never get on here... too much talkin(FOREVER about) stuff that can be solved easily and without 5 pages of banter.

but its pointless to say what i think, because its only gonna bring a cynical opposer thats gonna either start ANOTHER debate or just down play the idea.

I just wish i was in control of the dtl..

If I had to do it all over again, AS, I would've given you run of the show over Wieg. :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I've actually been steering clear of this thread for the last few days because we've gone back to arguing about uber bars and nitpicking little rules all over the place. Why don't we just keep the uber bar where it is and move ahead with the drafts? I was much more excited for the DTL when it seemed like the wheels were finally moving on actually getting to the nitty gritty.

Yeah, I used the words "nitty gritty." What? :cmad:

[The Leaguer]

Moving the uber bar (ubar) is never a good idea.

[TheCorpulent1]

What if we were to move it up so that Kyle in his first incarnation of Ion could be used?

[wiegeabo]

Well, right now the 'ubar' is set high enough to allow in Thanos and the weaker post-crisis Darkseid.

If we're good with it being that high, I've got no problem moving on and seeing how this season goes before working out if we should split up ubers or anything else. Sort of like a science experiment, only change one variable at a time.

I think this is the only 'big' issue up at the moment. There's a couple of small rules we need to quickly hammer out, and then we can get started.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm good with the uber bar staying where it is. It allows most of everybody's favorite characters to fit in without really throwing anything too far in one character or group's favor.

I'm firmly against splitting up ubers, though. I see no reason to do so and only confusion coming from it. If your ubers suck, get better ubers. Simple enough proposition.

[X]

Well, right now the 'ubar' is set high enough to allow in Thanos and the weaker post-crisis Darkseid.

If we're good with it being that high, I've got no problem moving on and seeing how this season goes before working out if we should split up ubers or anything else. Sort of like a science experiment, only change one variable at a time.

I think this is the only 'big' issue up at the moment. There's a couple of small rules we need to quickly hammer out, and then we can get started.

What rules are those?

[wiegeabo]

What rules are those?

Off the top of my head, these four. But, like I said, they should take no time at all. I think the majority were against the first two anyway.

I did alter the first rule, so reconsider it. And the second rule will definitely happen for the playoffs, but the suggestion was that it should happen earlier during the season.


1. Characters can be used as they appear before any currently ongoing storylines (as of the start of season 5). So, any changes that may occur to a character during the course of the season are off limits (because it's likely those changes haven't been fully explored).


2. A trading deadline, after which no more trading of characters between
teams is allowed.


3. Battlefield prep-time where the battlefield can be prepared during this time period, but neither team can interact with the other, nor can they leave the area. Resources are limited to what the characters in the match know, have on them, or can use/build in the battlefield. If the battlefield provides a character a way to access additional resources, that is allowed as long as it would be normally accessible to the character.


4. Some type of minimum appearance rule to establish that a character is fleshed out.

[TheCorpulent1]

1. I'm fine with that.

2. What does that mean? There'll be a point in the season after which no more trading is allowed, or there'll be a point every week after which no trading is allowed until after that week's match?

3. So no teleporting to get to databases, but if the characters have portable access to databases, they're fine? What if, say, the Avengers have a portable means of accessing their databases but they're on a battlefield in the DC universe that week? Does that mean that their portable database access is basically useless, or do we assume that those sorts of things can reach across alternate dimensions for the purposes of the DTL?

4. All for that. I say at least one full issue where they appear on a majority of the pages. That should be sufficient to give everyone a basic idea of who the character is and what they can do, although it'd basically make it pretty hellish on the owner to argue relative power levels unless that character happened to spend their whole one-issue appearance fighting recognizable characters. But that's a risk the owner should be in the position to take rather than have us mandate against it.

[wiegeabo]

2. What does that mean? There'll be a point in the season after which no more trading is allowed, or there'll be a point every week after which no trading is allowed until after that week's match?

3. So no teleporting to get to databases, but if the characters have portable access to databases, they're fine? What if, say, the Avengers have a portable means of accessing their databases but they're on a battlefield in the DC universe that week? Does that mean that their portable database access is basically useless, or do we assume that those sorts of things can reach across alternate dimensions for the purposes of the DTL?



#2:At a certain point in the season, teams would be locked down. (You'd still be allowed to change lineups, just no adding/dropping characters.)


#3:Everything is off limits unless it's accessible from the battlefield, and by someone on the team who could access it. So, if the battle is in Marvel New York, the Baxter Building is available, if you have a member of the Fantastic Four on your team. But, in DC New York, only DC sources can accessed. (So, yes, universe restrictions apply to the battlefield.)

The idea behind the battlefield rule was to force owners to use the battlefield itself against the enemy (think MacGyver with superpowers). It may also help bring down some ubers who won't have access to that one weapon that just happens to perfectly take out the other ubers.

[TheCorpulent1]

Not for #2 at all then. I like trading to my heart's content.

#3 seems like it'll force a lot more characters to fight blind, especially if the players can't leave the battlefield. Up 'til now, the Exiles were basically gods of Marvel information because of the Crystal Palace, but that'd be off-limits if they couldn't leave the battlefield to get to it. I'm actually for that. I think it's more fun if your characters have to figure out who their opponents are on the field every now and then. With the amount of information at the hands of basically any character on a major team in either universe, however, that was virtually impossible to set up before.

[X]

Yeah, we should never be restricted to tweaking our teams.

[Nightwing.]

yeah im in agreeance with X and Corp.Im all for the locked on first week team thing but after that they should be open to drop/trade/swap as and when provided it doesnt affect weekly line ups.

And the uber thing...i think it was just fine as it was where it was.i think its safe to say we just need to get this season started asap considering we have interest again.Show some outside of the DTL what its about and just go for it.

i mean there is the main change from last season with the voting system being returned to normal...thats change enough for me :p

[X]

I wouldn't be against just leaving the uber bar where it is. I wasn't against tweaking it, but if the majority doesn't really want to go through with it...

Oh, now I've found two new people for this thing. Fan' ****in' tastic', right?

[Tropico]

If I had to do it all over again, AS, I would've given you run of the show over Wieg. :up:

BIAS!!!!!:cmad::cmad::cmad:

[The Leaguer]

"Ubar," guys. Use it and love it.

[TheCorpulent1]

I will hit you in the face with an ubar.

Hmm, I do kind of love it. :up:

[X]

So is the Super Skrull a high end medium or a low end uber?

[TheCorpulent1]

High medium, I imagine. I had the Skrullian Skymaster as a medium, and he had the same powers as Kl'rt.

[X]

Hmmmm.

Speaking of the Super Skrull, do you think Ronan would be a high medium too or what?

[wiegeabo]

Hmmmm.

Speaking of the Super Skrull, do you think Ronan would be a high medium too or what?

Ronan the Accuser? His Wiki makes him sound like a top medium, but I'd have to know more about his ability to wield cosmic energy and manipulate matter. That might just put him into the low uber category.

[X]

He's been knocked out with one punch by the Silver Surfer.

That enough for you? :)

[The Leaguer]

Everyone has been knocked out with one punch by the Surfer at least once in their lives.

[X]

It's a reoccuring theme, or so I hear.

[The Leaguer]

You would know, except the Surfer's punch gave you a very specific type of amnesia.

[X]

*Rubs head*

[AnnoyingSilence]

If I had to do it all over again, AS, I would've given you run of the show over Wieg. :up:they say jokes are 50% truth

[AnnoyingSilence]

for the ubar. i say let thanos and them in, but they need to be suber status and be the worth of 2ubs

i mean, by the description yall was given last season played, he was a stronger telepath than X-man and could physically beat Silver Surfer

[Nightwing.]

well if thats his power then i say dont let him in....how do you beat something like that?even with 2 ubers....not an easy feat unless you have a surfer which means then you have to hope you have one even if you dont want a surfer....

[X]

Thanos isn't a stronger than X-Man telepath. He's a good one, but not among the elite.

He can beat Surfer, but he has to get his hands on him. Norrin is FAR more mobile with a lot, lot more powers than Thanos.

And it debatable that Norrin's more powerful than other. Just in Annihilation the Surfer activated a device that was keyed to Thanos' power.

Not to mention that Norrin got a power-up from Galactus that's made him more powerful and ruthless than ever before. You did see the way he casually defeated Ravenous, right? Trapped him in his damned board and casually nuked a planet in the process.

Thanos is basically a Hulk with energy powers and smarts. He's extremely powerful, one of the most powerful guys in the DTL but he's more limited than Green Lanterns and Heralds. A lot more limited.

And considering we use the most efficient versions of characters in the DTL, Heralds and GL's have viable options against Thanos. Not an easy time against him, but Norrin's never done anything exotic against Thanos. Just typical blasts and what not.

Drag his ass into a black hole or something.

Oh, by the way, I say we scrap the super uber thing and just get on with the season!

But wait until those new guys sign up! I've found three of them so far.

[TheCorpulent1]

Isn't Thanos also a pretty powerful magic user?

[X]

No, not at all?

I've never seen him use any kind of magic, period.

[TheCorpulent1]

I could've sworn I read something about Thanos being well-versed in the practice of black magic or something.

[The Leaguer]

That's Dr. Doom. You're stupid.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think Thanos could practice black magic as well. And I may be stupid but I'm your co-owner, so I get to **** up your team all I want. :oldrazz:

[The Leaguer]

People will still vote for us because of my name power.

[XFanTim]

I think I've read the origin of Thanos's powers as being something like a combination of enhancing himself with tech and studying sorcery -- but if so, it was just a throw away phrase about how he got so powerful. He doesn't ever use his powers in a way that resembles marvel magic users. His physical abilities are basically extremely high-level strength, durability, and energy projection -- everything else (e.g., teleportation) he does with technology (i.e., technology external to his body).

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's what I read. He had increased his natural strength and stuff with tech and sorcery. I think that was just to establish him as more of a renegade Titan, though, since the Titans had given up sorcery for technology long ago.

[XFanTim]

I'm good with the uber bar staying where it is. It allows most of everybody's favorite characters to fit in without really throwing anything too far in one character or group's favor.

I'm firmly against splitting up ubers, though. I see no reason to do so and only confusion coming from it. If your ubers suck, get better ubers. Simple enough proposition.
If you want to leave the uber bar where it is, fine, but don't tell me it lets everyone's favorite characters in. For a Thor and Flash fan like you, or a Thanos fan like JB, or even a Kyle Rayner fan like Wieg, I guess it looks fine. My favorite villain is Magneto. But he's a complete waste of a DTL lineup spot in a league where he's ranked the same as Silver Surfer. That's my biggest problem with the rankings -- the uber ranking is too broad. If your favorite characters are low-level ubers like Magneto, Apocalypse, hell, even the Hulk, then you're basically handicapping yourself by using the characters you like -- since there are 100% better characters ranked the same. Hence the whole high-uber / low-uber suggestion.

Of course, if you want to call Magneto a medium, I'm good with that too. :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Magneto's had some pretty impressive showings and can go well beyond just magnetism and into the rest of the EM spectrum with his powers. If I can reasonably argue that Thor has super-speed because of stuff in Journey Into Mystery that's rarely referenced past the '70s, I'm sure you could come up with a good argument for justifying Magneto's using his powers better than usual. ;)

[XFanTim]

But better than Silver Surfer? Seems like everything Magneto could do, Surfer could do . . . plus Mags can't transmute, doesn't have superspeed, doesn't have surfer's durability, etc.

Or are we just saying the rule is: Any uber is powerful enough to fight the other ubers, even if this is contradicted by the actual comics?

[XFanTim]

Also -- do you really think we can do justice to a Silver Surfer and Dr. Fate vs. Dr. Strange and Darkseid match each week while still keeping the writeups short? Because writeups that take forever to write and read are what has really derailed the DTL in the past.

[TheCorpulent1]

They wouldn't be as exciting, but mage vs. mage battles basically take the form of mage 1 throws this spell, mage 2 throws that spell, mage 1 throws another, mage 2 another, etc. until one of them falters or is distracted and the other pwns him. All of the spell-throwing could just take place in the background while an owner writes about the other fights, too, so that takes care of even more of the back-and-forth stuff.
But better than Silver Surfer? Seems like everything Magneto could do, Surfer could do . . . plus Mags can't transmute, doesn't have superspeed, doesn't have surfer's durability, etc.

Or are we just saying the rule is: Any uber is powerful enough to fight the other ubers, even if this is contradicted by the actual comics?
Well, not better, but up there. Someone just posted scans in another thread of Magneto draining the energy out of Jean back when she was using her pre-Dark Phoenix powers:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=12747427#post12747427

There are some respect threads that show him doing some pretty incredible other stuff, too.

[wiegeabo]

If you want to leave the uber bar where it is, fine, but don't tell me it lets everyone's favorite characters in. For a Thor and Flash fan like you, or a Thanos fan like JB, or even a Kyle Rayner fan like Wieg, I guess it looks fine. My favorite villain is Magneto. But he's a complete waste of a DTL lineup spot in a league where he's ranked the same as Silver Surfer. That's my biggest problem with the rankings -- the uber ranking is too broad. If your favorite characters are low-level ubers like Magneto, Apocalypse, hell, even the Hulk, then you're basically handicapping yourself by using the characters you like -- since there are 100% better characters ranked the same. Hence the whole high-uber / low-uber suggestion.

Of course, if you want to call Magneto a medium, I'm good with that too. :D

I'll admit, that's pretty much why I've always been in favor of lowering the uber bar. Sort of like how we had it in season one before everyone realized there was no bar and started grabbing the super duper ubers. (I guess Leaguer would call them sudupars.) When we started, most everyone picked characters we though would be cool to have on a team together. So there was a lot of balance between teams, even though powers were really different.

And it wasn't common to write characters to the extreme of their powers because we didn't really think about doing that. But, for me, it was almost more fun because you could exploit flaws, and think about how to get around them. I remember one match where I had Apocalypse fight Hal Jordan. I didn't know how I would beat Hal until I remembered Apoc was a shapeshifter. So, when it looked like Hal had Apoc's number, I had Apoc change his skin color to yellow and beat the hell out of Jordan.

Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to write characters to their extremes, and just use their 'average' power levels. But that still leaves a lot to interpretation. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, there are just too many variables to how people perceive all of the characters. Plus, it's just not as much fun if we start mandating how people write their own characters. I just think the competitive nature of the DTL overtook the fun part at a certain point.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, maybe I could make Magneto usable so long as I follow two rules:
(1) Post as many scans of Magneto pwning Phoenix as possible
(2) Never, ever, ever mention that Magneto only won that fight because Phoenix had some mental block that stopped her from accessing her full power.

Oh, crap

[XFanTim]

Although in fairness, Phoenix at the same power-level faired pretty well against Firelord.

Although in fairness, Firelord is an idiot.

[XFanTim]

Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to write characters to their extremes, and just use their 'average' power levels. But that still leaves a lot to interpretation.
If the voters would reward people for winning without pushing their characters to ridiculous feats of too uberdom, or for winning despite being up against more powerful opponents, then maybe the problem would take care of itself.

The problem is, a lot of times it's the opposite. If I take Magneto and Apocalypse as my ubers against Thanos and a Green Lantern, I'd expect a lot of people would be biased against me before even reading the writeup.

Maybe Wieg just needs to spell out the guidelines for voters more explicitly. Something like:
- Voters should decide based on the quality of the writeup and subsequent arguments, not just based on which team looks stronger "on paper".
- Writeups should be judged on:
-- Creativity and originality of strategy (Did they find an interesting way to win?)
-- Plausibility (Did they use the characters in a believable way, based on how they're portrayed in the comics?)
-- Brevity/Pacing (Was the writeup as long as it needed to be to reasonably portray the battles, but no longer?)

It wouldn't need to be exactly like that, but something to that effect. And then we'd all need to listen to it.

[XFanTim]

I also think that even if the uber bar stays where it is, we should make an explicit rule against ubers psi-blitzing/speed-blitzing/teleport-blitzing/whatever the regulars and mediums. Otherwise, I have to not only pick an uber who can beat your uber, but also an uber who can protect all my regs from your uber. Which is why I always ended up using Dr. Strange every other week.

The rule could be: "Ubers can't attack regs/meds unless they've beaten the opposing ubers -- or if the regs/meds choose to attack them first." Obviously, it wouldn't be fair to write it so your opponents no-super-speed regs say "Hey, Flash, I'm gonna get you!" just to give him an excuse to beat them all.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, maybe I could make Magneto usable so long as I follow two rules:
(1) Post as many scans of Magneto pwning Phoenix as possible
(2) Never, ever, ever mention that Magneto only won that fight because Phoenix had some mental block that stopped her from accessing her full power.

Oh, crap
She was still well beyond what Jean Grey is capable of normally, and Jean's pretty powerful. Either way, Magneto's not a totally useless uber like you're implying.

[X]

No Magneto love? He's one of the best ubers in this thing!

Do you have any idea how versatile he is because of his mastery of his power? He's got so many lethal applications of it it's stupid.

Controlling people like puppets, making your blood flood into your lungs, causing the metallic residue in your body to speed up causing a chainsaw like effect (Which he did to a demon, so much for not being able to affect magical beings) Shutting down the neural activity in your brain...

He's done all of the above in comics. That's not even considering the other applications of his powers.

Guys personal shields have NEVER been broken. He can open wormholes.

He gave Cosmic Spider-Man absolute hell (More so than Graviton)

He can control energy, from gamma radiation to light.

He tore Apocalypse in half. He's tore through teams of Avenger's including Thor.

Surfer has an extremely limited control over magnetism. Magneto's a master at it.

[X]

I also think that even if the uber bar stays where it is, we should make an explicit rule against ubers psi-blitzing/speed-blitzing/teleport-blitzing/whatever the regulars and mediums. Otherwise, I have to not only pick an uber who can beat your uber, but also an uber who can protect all my regs from your uber. Which is why I always ended up using Dr. Strange every other week.

The rule could be: "Ubers can't attack regs/meds unless they've beaten the opposing ubers -- or if the regs/meds choose to attack them first." Obviously, it wouldn't be fair to write it so your opponents no-super-speed regs say "Hey, Flash, I'm gonna get you!" just to give him an excuse to beat them all.

Honestly, blitzing a team in any way has always been frowned upon and basically universally made you lose votes. There's an unwritten rule about "Superman is teh fastrrez your teem is dooomed!!1".

I think the second rule absolutely has to be included. Ubers can only attack ubers, regulars against regulars, only regulars and middleweight can attack more powerful characters...

There's nothing to figure out or debate or drag on. BUT it enriches the game to no end.

Simple rule with a lot of good coming of it.

[XFanTim]

Screw it, if I'm going to spend this much time debating I might as well just rejoin.

So I'm in. What do people think of my idea of splitting the draft in half. Pick six characters, then revise your lists, then pick six more.

I know it sounds slow, but I think it would actually be quicker because you wouldn't have to make such a ridiculously long list the first time around. Plus, that way your later picks could actually take into account your early picks, so you don't draft four teleporters or whatever.

[X]

And about Magneto... Being an absolute master in one field is sometimes better than being a jack of all trades. That's one way to look at the Surfer/Magneto comparison.

[X]

There's a much bigger gap between Johnny Quick and Wally than there is between Magneto and the Surfer.

Anyway, you can squeeze Quick or Garrick in as middleweights.

I don't see the problem.

[XFanTim]

You've persuaded me, X. I killed my earlier post after reading the comments that appeared above it. Sorry, now it looks like you're talking to yourself. ;)

[XFanTim]

Anyway, to repeat: I'm up for giving this thing another go. I'm going to strictly limit the amount of time I spend on writeups, so if it means I get my ass kicked, so be it.

Regarding the draft:
What do people think of my above suggestion? (see post 14353)

[wiegeabo]

If we do the ubers attacking ubers rule, meds should still be allowed to take on regs. The difference between middleweight and regular is usually far less than between mid and uber. Quicksilver can keep thing, or even Super Skrull busy (well, maybe not Skrull if he uses his forcefields wisely).

[X]

Screw it, if I'm going to spend this much time debating I might as well just rejoin.

So I'm in. What do people think of my idea of splitting the draft in half. Pick six characters, then revise your lists, then pick six more.

I know it sounds slow, but I think it would actually be quicker because you wouldn't have to make such a ridiculously long list the first time around. Plus, that way your later picks could actually take into account your early picks, so you don't draft four teleporters or whatever.

How would the new draft thing work, exactly? Not getting it...

And about your write-up's sucking... Long write-up's have gone the way of the dodo, dude.

Your writing is quality. Always has been. Your write-up's are going to be just as long as they've ever been relative to everyone elses.

Comprende? :)

[X]

If we do the ubers attacking ubers rule, meds should still be allowed to take on regs. The difference between middleweight and regular is usually far less than between mid and uber. Quicksilver can keep thing, or even Super Skrull busy (well, maybe not Skrull if he uses his forcefields wisely).

I agree.

You see the potential of that rule though, right?

Every regular gets a fair shake, among other things, no one's getting left out in the cold.

And there's no debating or ****ing around with it. It's a simple rule.

Oh, by the way, what's the Super Skrull?

[wiegeabo]

Oh, by the way, what's the Super Skrull?

You know, Kl'rt. The Super-Skrull. Powers of the F4. He's a top tier middle that some regs could keep busy in a fight.

[X]

Hahahaa, I know WHO he is.

I wanted to know his ranking.

[XFanTim]

Wieg's draft proposal (as I understand it):
Everyone sends him a list of characters at each rank. He puts the players in some random order, and then each player gets a turn picking (only they aren't actually picking, he's picking for them from their pre-made lists).

1st problem: You need an extremely long list so that when it gets to your twelfth pick, you still have some characters on the list who haven't been taken.

2nd problem: You can't revise your later picks based on who you managed to get with your earlier picks. E.g., if I get an uber teleporter, maybe I don't want a regular teleporter as well.

My proposed solution: Split the draft in two. We can submit a shorter list, Wieg uses it to determine our first 6 characters, and then we revise our list for our next six draft picks. I know it seems like having two drafts would be slower, but I think not having to do such a long list all at once would make people get them in sooner, which would more than make up for it.

[wiegeabo]

Wow, everyone seems to want to join up now. Tim's back and I got a pm in someone interested. We should easily be at 12 teams now. Heck, we might even be pushing 16.

[XFanTim]

A third problem with doing automatic picks from a list:
You could end up getting redundant characters.

Like say I really want a Dr. Fate. I could put all the Dr. Fate's on my list, to make sure I got one of them. But potentially I could pick one, and then pick a second when it came back around to my turn. Which would be a waste of a pick.

My second suggestion Let us list alternatives on our list. E.g., my list might say:
Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)
-- Alternative: Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)

The point is, I only want Wieg to give me Hall if Nelson was already taken. If I was successful in getting Nelson, don't give me Hall as well, just go on to the next guy on my list.

[X]

Wow, everyone seems to want to join up now. Tim's back and I got a pm in someone interested. We should easily be at 12 teams now. Heck, we might even be pushing 16.

Yeah, you can thank me for that. ;)

LETS DO 16!!!

I'm all for Tim's draft ideas, personally.

Using his idea it'd be a lot easier to have 16 people in this, with a different approach to the draft and what not.

[wiegeabo]

My concern with 16 teams is that it's a lot of reading, even with shortened writeups (that's why we started losing people in 2) and that the schedule could get very long. At least the schedule how I wanted to do it.

I'd rather have 12 solid teams (maybe some people could team up), as opposed to 16 teams of individuals (and the Leaguer/Corp hetero-partnership).

[XFanTim]

Just out of curiosity, what's the list of definite participants so far?

[X]

My concern with 16 teams is that it's a lot of reading, even with shortened writeups (that's why we started losing people in 2) and that the schedule could get very long. At least the schedule how I wanted to do it.

I'd rather have 12 solid teams (maybe some people could team up), as opposed to 16 teams of individuals (and the Leaguer/Corp hetero-partnership).

What if we split each week into two parts?

It could be rotating so every other week half of us would get a small break.

More variety, more characters being put to use, more reasons to stay with this thing...

Eight write-up's each revolving "week" wouldn't be that bad at all.

[wiegeabo]

Just out of curiosity, what's the list of definite participants so far?

I was afraid someone was going to ask me that. I really should have everyone send me a pm confirming their team, just so I can keep track. Or get around to making the season 5 update thread. :ninja:

Besides X's 12 friends :p

wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull

I got a pm from someone, and X says he has 3 friends, I think. That would make 14 teams.

[X]

Hhahaa, uh... I think I just found another DTL person. :D

[X]

Answer the question above, Wieg! :p

[wiegeabo]

What if we split each week into two parts?

It could be rotating so every other week half of us would get a small break.

More variety, more characters being put to use, more reasons to stay with this thing...

Eight write-up's each revolving "week" wouldn't be that bad at all.

Then we'd be looking at a season that last around half the year. Even with breaks, it would be hard to keep everyone involved, especially if their teams aren't doing well.


Now, to keep involvement high no matter what, I was thinking we could give out prizes. Nothing physical like comic books (although that would rock!) but something that could be used on the sight. I think JH made avatars once. We could do that again. Or even just recognizing people for accomplishments.

For example, how about an award for biggest come back in the second half of the season. If someone wins 1 game in the first half, that's pretty discouraging. Yet if they win most of the rest when we come back, they might still not make the playoffs, but should be recognized for turning their team around.

[wiegeabo]

Answer the question above, Wieg! :p

NEVER!!! :cmad:

Oh, wait. I just did. :csad: :word:

[X]

You talk about a longer season failing to keep people interested... Couldn't it do the exact opposite?

Us getting more time off, less deadlines, a more "epic" feel like we're really competing and winning & what not?

I think we should at least ask to see if a longer season would be more discouraging, if they'd prefer every other week off, blah blah blah. I think it'd be rash to just assume that.

[Nightwing.]

ok so we have potential participants...most of us have handed in a draft list and we've all managed to talk ourselves out of the uber splitting and bar raising thing....

so whens this thing gonna kick off?im really anxious to see who i got.

personally i think starting up with the teams we had last time and letting the newbies just grab an ownerless and make edits is the best and fastest solution to this...esp for those who loved their previous teams like i do.

any thoughts?

[X]

I think it's unfair to jump the gun and cut all the new people out of a brand new draft.

We'll live a few more days getting them all situated.

[Nightwing.]

:( my poor team......it misses me....it misses me so bad.....

it just phoned me and they all said in a unanimous voice 'we miss you' it was like a chorus of angels being shot by some sadistic sniper at the gates of heaven....

yeah ok....i can wait abit longer.....im just so anxious...its like christmas come early

[X]

Ahahhahahaha.

That was quite the rant. :(

[Nightwing.]

well i needed to convince myself....it took some doing im quite the stubborn guy ill have you know....

[X]

What do you think about more people in this thing and a slightly longer but more relaxed season, Nightwing?

[Nightwing.]

i was gonna say something the other day actually...i think the more competing the better....and to relax it would be good.....

but yeah a nice full line up of teams and plenty to go at.....im all for that

[X]

Well, that's Nightwing and me in.

Whoooo else. *Performs the Corp cry*

[Liquid Green]

Hey Guys,Aza invited me in.

When does drafting start.

[X]

Within a week and a half, I'm guessing.

[X]

And welcome to the boards, Green. :)

How's tonight treating you...

[Nightwing.]

welcome green.if you want in mate get your drafts to Wieg.....

we bow down to him (scoring browny points before the seasons even started.....this is how butt kissin's really done...you could all learn something from me)

[Liquid Green]

welcome green.if you want in mate get your drafts to Wieg.....

we bow down to him (scoring browny points before the seasons even started.....this is how butt kissin's really done...you could all learn something from me)

Wieg?

And also how powerful can the characters be?

[X]

Thanos is about where it tops out, and he's an uber. So, he's the top of the uber totem pole.

Wiegabo runs this thing. :)

[Nightwing.]

yeah Weigeabo is the Commisioner of the DTL,what he says goes but he usually likes to get a majority vote on things before anything is decided.

you can pm him with your draft here (http://forums.superherohype.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=6033)

in your draft you need 32 ubers,32mediums and 32 regulars.heres (http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=7868274&postcount=7) a list of the types of characters and what rank they would fall in to.

you can use any of the characters you see here in your draft...the teams and their owners were from last season and that doesnt stand this season...we're starting from fresh...also the big list at the bottom of that link are also to be selected...if you think of anymore outside of these lists (which there are) that you want in your draft get em sent to weig.....

happy picking camper

[X]

You can hold off on making a draft list, we might change the entire way we do that really soon.

[Nightwing.]

dammit...after that post i just made......

[XFanTim]

Personally, I'm looking forward to drafting an all-new team. I don't intend to bring back anyone from my championship team. Screw those losers!

[wiegeabo]

I'm thinking of the way to do a draft list and their good/bad points. I want it as simple as possible while being as fair as possible.

[wiegeabo]

Personally, I'm looking forward to drafting an all-new team. I don't intend to bring back anyone from my championship team. Screw those losers!

Screw them with a ten-foot pole!!! :cmad:




...figuratively speaking...:dry:

[X]

Personally, I'm looking forward to drafting an all-new team. I don't intend to bring back anyone from my championship team. Screw those losers!

And how do you feel about having more people in this and the ensuing slighty longer season?

I think it'd promote trading too...

[Nightwing.]

ha ha go tim go tim.....

although i still think i should have my team immortalised from last season for being the only one to beat tim in a week....was it last season or the season before....i was about to say its my proudest DTL moment but doesnt help when i cant remember when it was.

ah no yep it was season 3 week 10 (just checked my DTL write ups) ha ha im sad.

[X]

I hate this.

Wieg's on here and this thing finally gets some momentum.

Instead of staying and ironing out even a handful of these problems that are holding us back he FLEES INTO THE NIGHT.

Damn you, Wieg. Damn you.

[wiegeabo]

Hey, I don't have to explain myself to you! :mad:

But I will because I've got a long commute home, and I'm not staying at work just to stay on the internet and fulfill your personal needs. :p

[X]

Ah, affirmative.

[wiegeabo]

Ahhh. Alpha dominance asserted. Ego satisfied. :D :p


On a completely different note, who's the mod for the game forum? I've got a question for them.

[Blacklight]

wiegabo said I need to put my name in the hat.

[X]

So, questions, Wieg?

[wiegeabo]

Yes. My question above. Who's the games forum mod?

As for DTL question, I'll look over what we've gone through later.

[X]

Yeaaaah you suck. :(

[wiegeabo]

Here's where we're at in the discussion, I think:


Leave the ubar where it is, topping out with Thanos and Darkseid. If this becomes a problem during the season, we can address it then (although voters may take care of this one).

Don't split the ubers.

Ubers can only fight other ubers unless first attacked by lower ranking characters, or the opponent's ubers have been dealt with.

Trading is open until the playoffs.

Voters should be instructed to base votes on the quality of writeups, not just how the team looks or what they think would happen.

No 'blitzing' the other team (again, voters may take care of this one).

Determine how long a season should be and the schedule should work (with 16 teams my original schedule would make for an 18 week season with 2 or 3 weeks for playoffs, and 2 bye weeks).

Consider alternative drafts (which I'll post later).

Battlefield only prep-time to improve improvisation for the battle.

Minimum appearance rule (1 issue and 3 issues have been suggested).

Characters cannot use any new abilities or tech that appear in comics after the season is started. Anything seen before the cutoff data is fair game as usual.

Here's the current list of 11 teams:
wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull
Corp

leaving room for 5 more in a 16 team league. And xman and Liquid have expressed interest.


I don't think any (of most) of these are set in stone. But this is the general feeling I got from the last few pages of discussion.

[Blacklight]

How do I pick my team?

Which characters are on each team?

[XFanTim]

xman:blacklight -- we're still working out the details. Basically, we'll send lists of who we want to wieg, and he'll pick the top available player from each person's list until the teams are filled out. Your team needs to be a mix of uber-level, mid-level, and regular-level characters (see the DTL Update thread in my sig for examples -- scroll down to the part that has the teams from last season. Marvel Regulars are labeled MR, DC Ubers are labeled DU, etc.)

Wieg -- That all looks pretty good. One question: did we ditch the company restrictions for lineups (one uber from each company, etc.)? I can't remember. If we haven't, I think we should. If someone wants to field an all Marvel or all DC team some week, why not let them? Plenty of characters from both Marvel and DC will end up being used anyway.

[wiegeabo]

Ideally we'd have a live draft where everyone is online at the same time, and we take turns adding characters to our teams one at a time. Obviously it's nearly impossible to this, and even if we were all on at the same time, it would take far to long to draft full teams (at least 3 hours if we picked one character each minute).

So, the draft we use should mimic this as much as possible. Here are some proposals:


Everyone makes one large draft list, putting characters of all ranks in what ever order they want to try and get them. A random order for the teams is chosen and I go down the owner list, assigning each team the next available character until everyone has 12 characters. (This is the method most closely mimics real sports drafts and some fantasy sports drafts.)

An alternative to using a static order for owners is called the snake draft where, in each round, I reverse the order the owners get their characters. So, the last owner to get a character in round 1, gets the first in round 2, the last in 3, the first in 4, and so on. (This method is also used in fantasy sports drafts and used in the first season of the DTL.)

Another alternative is to randomly assign owner order with each round.


Another drafting option is to make a list for each rank of characters. 'Mini-drafts' are held for each rank (as described above) until everyone owns 4 characters of each rank (for a total of 12).


Another proposal is sort of a hybrid draft. Owners make one large draft list and characters are assigned to owners in a manner described above until half the team is filled. Then owners re-evaluate their lists based on the characters taken and another draft fills the rest of the teams.



Regardless of the method of draft, we need to determine the minimum number of characters needed in the lists so people don't run out, or what to do if the lists are too short and it does run out of characters.

[Blacklight]

Can I post my team preferences here? If not, where?

[wiegeabo]

Can I post my team preferences here? If not, where?

It's probably too early to send them since we're still deciding. But when you need to, you pm your list to me.

[XFanTim]

I think either a snake draft or re-randomizing after every round is the way to go -- I don't think it's fair for the same person to be last in every round.

I still like the idea of drafting six, then getting a chance to revise your list, and then drafting another six.

I say let people make their lists whatever length they want. If you run out of characters on your list, you miss your turn, but you can pick someone up to fill the empty spot once the rosters are posted, first come first serve. (With my split draft proposal, they could fill empty spots up to six after the first half-draft.) In other words, if you choose to only do a short list, you assume the risk that you'll run out.

I think a single list instead of separate lists for each ranks is fine. If someone wants a particular medium so bad that they're willing to use their second pick on him, why not let them?

I'd also like to reiterate my suggestion of allowing people to list alternates.
E.g.:
Dr. Fate I
-- Alternate: Dr. Fate IV

Meaning you only want the second Dr. Fate if you failed to get the first one. If we don't allow this, then people have to either only list one Fate (meaning they might land none), or have to list two and end up accidentally drafting both.

I'll shut up now and let someone else give their opinion. :)

[X]

I think we should split the draft up and order our characters in the order we'd like to get them. Slightly more structered and it'll add a degree of strategy to how our teams are going to fill out.

A question for everyone...

Since we're seemingly going the route of being more aware of strategy, creativity, what we have our characters do and not what you think should be going on...

What's your take on a team being uninformed of the other?

Lets say one team is all Marvel characters. Power heavy for sure, it isn't difficult to throw together a power heavy team.

But half of the other team is completely unknown to you.

How much of an impact is that going to have on your voting? We take into consideration how our characters react to one another (feuds and what not) but what about intel on the other team? Shouldn't being ignorant as to what the other team can do set you back hugely before the fight even gets underway?

I think taking that into consideration more than we have in the past would make us think more, fill out our teams more evenly.

I know during this season that if one team has no idea who the other is I'm not going to assume that doesn't create a massive obstacle and give them the benefit of the doubt or some such.

[wiegeabo]

I think we should split the draft up and order our characters in the order we'd like to get them. Slightly more structered and it'll add a degree of strategy to how our teams are going to fill out.

A question for everyone...

Since we're seemingly going the route of being more aware of strategy, creativity, what we have our characters do and not what you think should be going on...

What's your take on a team being uninformed of the other?

Lets say one team is all Marvel characters. Power heavy for sure, it isn't difficult to throw together a power heavy team.

But half of the other team is completely unknown to you.

How much of an impact is that going to have on your voting? We take into consideration how our characters react to one another (feuds and what not) but what about intel on the other team? Shouldn't being ignorant as to what the other team can do set you back hugely before the fight even gets underway?

I think taking that into consideration more than we have in the past would make us think more, fill out our teams more evenly.

I know during this season that if one team has no idea who the other is I'm not going to assume that doesn't create a massive obstacle and give them the benefit of the doubt or some such.


Well, we've always been aware of this. And I think not knowing about the other side should be a big disadvantage. It's one reason I've supported the universe rule in lineups. Because, if you make a total Marvel team, and face a DC heavy team, your team should have no way of accessing information about the DC characters.

And owners usually do one of two things to get information: put characters in their lineup that know the other side, or access the databases of information (ala Avengers).

Battlefield prep could reduce the second option by limiting access to databases. As for the first, the safest option is to mix universes.

[X]

I don't think you should be forced to do something that will drastically improve your chances of winning, though.

If you want to go radically against it, sure.

[XFanTim]

I think it depends on how the players do their writeups. If your team knows nothing about the other team, but you write them like they know something, it'd make me less likely to vote for you. I doubt any of the voters will fall for obvious ploys like: "Hey guys, why don't we all wear spacesuits into battle this weak, just in case the other team has someone who creates poison gas?"

Conversely, if your opponents team doesn't know your guys, I'm more likely to accept it if in your writeup you have them get caught off-guard by one of your guy's powers.

So in short: it's up to the players to factor in that lack of knowledge and show why it would, or wouldn't, make a difference in the fight.

That said, the owner of the team can still use his knowledge of the opposing team when selecting his lineup. If you have a DC character who creates visual illusions, don't be surprised if you find him facing Daredevil. He won't know who he's up against, but it's not going to matter much. :D

[XFanTim]

I'd actually say that's why we don't need the universe rule: Players already have an incentive to pick universe-balanced team so that they'll be able to recognize their opponents. If they want an all-Marvel team bad enough to work around that handicap, why not let them?

Edit: Just noticed that X made the exact same point above. :up:

[X]

I just don't buy anyone short of strategic geniuses like Captain America figuring out anything worthwhile on the battlefield, before they're beaten.

Speaking of that, anyone remember that Exiles comic where all the heroes were forced to fight in a gladiatorial type setting?

Mimic won all of his and then at the end fought Cap...

The fight lasted all of three seconds because he broke out a power he had been holding back that entire time.

[XFanTim]

I just don't buy anyone short of strategic geniuses like Captain America figuring out anything worthwhile on the battlefield, before they're beaten.

Speaking of that, anyone remember that Exiles comic where all the heroes were forced to fight in a gladiatorial type setting?

Mimic won all of his and then at the end fought Cap...

The fight lasted all of three seconds because he broke out a power he had been holding back that entire time.
I'd say it depends on whether the guy they're up against has a good "surprise power" or not. I mean, the elment of surprise doesn't do much if you're the Thing -- you're pretty clearly a big durable guy who hits people. Wheras if you're, say, the Purple Man, whether they know your power could easily decide the whole match.

[Nightwing.]

im all for the any combination.....ie all marvel or all dc or mixed......could be interesting....esp all marvel vs all dc...

[Nightwing.]

I just don't buy anyone short of strategic geniuses like Captain America figuring out anything worthwhile on the battlefield, before they're beaten.

Speaking of that, anyone remember that Exiles comic where all the heroes were forced to fight in a gladiatorial type setting?

Mimic won all of his and then at the end fought Cap...

The fight lasted all of three seconds because he broke out a power he had been holding back that entire time.

what power?

[wiegeabo]

I just don't buy anyone short of strategic geniuses like Captain America figuring out anything worthwhile on the battlefield, before they're beaten.

Speaking of that, anyone remember that Exiles comic where all the heroes were forced to fight in a gladiatorial type setting?

Mimic won all of his and then at the end fought Cap...

The fight lasted all of three seconds because he broke out a power he had been holding back that entire time.

I sort of remember that. Been a long time since I read those issues.

[X]

I'd say it depends on whether the guy they're up against has a good "surprise power" or not. I mean, the elment of surprise doesn't do much if you're the Thing -- you're pretty clearly a big durable guy who hits people. Wheras if you're, say, the Purple Man, whether they know your power could easily decide the whole match.

Yeah, the latter is my point though.

A huge musclebound freak of a character is most obviously a brick, and if you have Batman on your team I have zero problem with you/him deducing that.

But if you have an all Marvel team and in front of you is Green Lantern I don't expect a single one of your guys to have any clue that that character has a willpower fueled weapon that can do almost anything, and the Marvel team is at a MASSIVE disadvantage because of it.

And Mimic used an optic blast to end the fight with the evil Captain America.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, I remember that. All his other powers were short-range combat stuff (Wolverine's claws/healing factor, Colossus's strength/durability), and then he breaks out the optic blast out of nowhere. :D

[Khellendros]

Hey, guys. A poster named Aza Chorn (X? Is that you?) on another forum told me about this League thing, and said I might dig it. He was right, what he told me sounded pretty cool, so I'm in. Assuming I read correctly that there are spaces open. Also, since I don't really want to search through potentially hundreds of pages of this thread, can someone direct me to your rules? Especially power limits, outlawed powers, etc.

[XFanTim]

Wiegeabo is the current commissioner -- he'll probably repost the rules shortly. But a sense of what characters are allowed and how they're ranked can be found in the update thread (see my sig). Scroll down to the part that lists rosters from last season. Characters come in three weight classes: regular, medium, and uber. A DC uber is listed as (DU), a Marvel regular is listed as (MR) etc. If we call someone tuber, that means they're too uber (or else a potato).
E.g.:
Wolverine is a regular
Storm is a medium
Thor is an uber
Odin is a tuber

We'll be re-drafting for the new season, so all the characters listed in the update thread are up for grabs.

[X]

Hey, guys. A poster named Aza Chorn (X? Is that you?) on another forum told me about this League thing, and said I might dig it. He was right, what he told me sounded pretty cool, so I'm in. Assuming I read correctly that there are spaces open. Also, since I don't really want to search through potentially hundreds of pages of this thread, can someone direct me to your rules? Especially power limits, outlawed powers, etc.

Hey dood'!

You don't have to search through a thing. This is pretty "newbie" friendly.

Thanos is about the top of the totem pole. "Ubers" in this thing are GL's, Heralds, Kryptonian's and Daxamites... High end guys.

Middlweights are characters that can give the high end guys problems for the most part. The Thing, Colossus, Makkari, Ikaris, Thena, Captain Marvel (Monica) Mammoth.

Regulars are the street guys, Spider-Man and the symbiote crew, lower end energy characters like the Human Torch and what not.

[Khellendros]

Hey dood'!

You don't have to search through a thing. This is pretty "newbie" friendly.

Thanos is about the top of the totem pole. "Ubers" in this thing are GL's, Heralds, Kryptonian's and Daxamites... High end guys.

Middlweights are characters that can give the high end guys problems for the most part. The Thing, Colossus, Makkari, Ikaris, Thena, Captain Marvel (Monica) Mammoth.

Regulars are the street guys, Spider-Man and the symbiote crew, lower end energy characters like the Human Torch and what not.I gotcha. And, did I see there was discussion of making it so you had to choose one universe to draft from?

[X]

Ahhhh, no. That was just a question of how many characters from each universe would be on each team.

There's no limits as to how many characters you can have from one universe.

Wildstorm's good as well, What If's, Elseworlds...

[wiegeabo]

Ahhhh, no. That was just a question of how many characters from each universe would be on each team.

There's no limits as to how many characters you can have from one universe.

Wildstorm's good as well, What If's, Elseworlds...


I've always wanted to get rid of the What If's and Elseworlds...

[X]

That's toooooooo bad cause the majority don't feel that way. :)

[wiegeabo]

And yet, I am the commissioner. And nothing says majority rules... :ninja:

[Blacklight]

So what are we discussing? I say if we can, 6 from each.

[wiegeabo]

We're discussing if you should be required to have at least one character from each universe (Marvel/DC) in your lineup.

[Blacklight]

We're discussing if you should be required to have at least one character from each universe (Marvel/DC) in your lineup.
Maybe a minimum of 3, so that way if someone wants an all Marvel or all DC team and need to replace a chunk of their team, they'll be able to and maybe throw in one or two of the opposite if they're really bad off. No one in the entire world doesn't know at least 3 heroes of the other company.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think the universe restriction should stand as it was for most of the DTL's existence: 1 Marvel uber, 1 DC uber, 1 Marvel reg, 1 DC reg, and a wildcard middleweight or extra reg. I always found it kind of lame to go up against teams from just one universe. Where's the fun in that? That's something you could just read about in a comic. One of the better parts of the DTL is bringing together characters from each universe, at least to me.

[X]

Like it's been said, you use stacked line-up's at your own peril.

[X]

And yet, I am the commissioner. And nothing says majority rules... :ninja:

We'll lynch you, the whole DTL mob will...!

[XFanTim]

I think the universe restriction should stand as it was for most of the DTL's existence: 1 Marvel uber, 1 DC uber, 1 Marvel reg, 1 DC reg, and a wildcard middleweight or extra reg. I always found it kind of lame to go up against teams from just one universe. Where's the fun in that? That's something you could just read about in a comic. One of the better parts of the DTL is bringing together characters from each universe, at least to me.Yeah, but we're going to have lots of characters from each universe represented in this thing anyway, just because everybody wants to build a versatile team. There's no need to force people to balance their team. If someone wants to have a bunch of guys going "Superman? Who the hell is that?" then I say let them do it.

[XFanTim]

I've always wanted to get rid of the What If's and Elseworlds...This could largely be accomplished by requiring them to have at least two appearances (although personally I don't think it's necessary). Just don't try to tell me I can't take someone from eXiles or the AOA.:oldrazz:

[TheCorpulent1]

Pff, you're not taking anyone, remember, deserter? :oldrazz:
Yeah, but we're going to have lots of characters from each universe represented in this thing anyway, just because everybody wants to build a versatile team. There's no need to force people to balance their team. If someone wants to have a bunch of guys going "Superman? Who the hell is that?" then I say let them do it.
Eh, whatever. It doesn't really matter one way or the other to me, I guess.

[XFanTim]

Pff, you're not taking anyone, remember, deserter? :oldrazz:
Um . . . see posts 14353 (http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=12797880&postcount=14353) and 14357 (http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=12797981&postcount=14357). If this is typical of how closely you'll be paying attention this season, prepare to be pwned.:oldrazz:

[XFanTim]

Anyway, getting back to the draft: at least X and I have endorsed the idea of everyone submitting one list (no need to split by ranking) and then drafting the first six for each team. The list doesn't need to be too long, since we're only picking six. That way we can start to see how our team is shaping up right away, and can revise our draft lists for the next six picks based on who we've already got.

Anyone else have any opinions?

[TheCorpulent1]

I think it'd be a lot quicker and easier to just submit one draft list per rank, have wieg do the draft, lock the teams the first week, then allow everyone to trade as they please after that.

And I totally skipped over all the arguing that went on over policy before because I haven't been on the boards much for the past day or two. I'd say welcome back, but since you mocked me I won't. Deal with it. :o

[XFanTim]

And I totally skipped over all the arguing that went on over policy before because I haven't been on the boards much for the past day or two. I'd say welcome back, but since you mocked me I won't. Deal with it. :oLove you too, Corp. :o

I think it'd be a lot quicker and easier to just submit one draft list per rank, have wieg do the draft, lock the teams the first week, then allow everyone to trade as they please after that.I don't know . . . I think maybe the lists would get submitted quicker if we only did part of the team at a time, but I'm for whatever gets this thing moving.

I'm still not sure what the benefit of splitting it by rank is. If I desperately want to get Pip the Troll (and lord knows I do) why not let me use my second overall pick on him? Sure, it will mean I get crappier ubers, but who cares? It's Pip the Troll! :D

[TheCorpulent1]

I've got my lists already done. Leaguer and I have discussed and agreed on them (Me: I threw a bunch of names on the list after the people we actually want; Leaguer: Looks good), and they're ready to submit. Wieg suggests that everybody have enough characters for every round of the draft anyway, so whether you split them up into 3 lists of 32 or keep them as one big, 96-person list, you still need the same number of characters. I don't really want to do half a draft and then wait on everybody while they tweak their lists a second time, either.

[XFanTim]

I'll also reiterate my call to let us list alternates. E.g., my list might say:

Dr. Strange
-- alternate: Dr. Fate

Meaning I only want Dr. Fate if I don't get Dr. Strange.

The point is, if I really want an uber mage on my team, I'd want to list a bunch of them (because the first one I list might get taken before it's my pick). But I don't want to accidentally end up drafting three uber mages. Hence, I list one mage, and list the others as alternates in order of preference.

[XFanTim]

I've got my lists already done. Leaguer and I have discussed and agreed on them (Me: I threw a bunch of names on the list after the people we actually want; Leaguer: Looks good), and they're ready to submit. Wieg suggests that everybody have enough characters for every round of the draft anyway, so whether you split them up into 3 lists of 32 or keep them as one big, 96-person list, you still need the same number of characters. I don't really want to do half a draft and then wait on everybody while they tweak their lists a second time, either.
Eh, two drafts vs. one draft, I don't really care that much anymore.

But whether it's broken up by rankings or not makes a difference, and here's why: If I really want a particular reg (Pip is my example), I could put him first on my reg list, but if I don't have the first pick there's still a chance someone else will grab him. But if we have one list, and I put him ahead of all my ubers, I'll almost certainly get him, since hardly anyone else would be picking regulars at that point. Even if he's your favorite reg, you'd probably take Thor first and leave Pip to me.

It's not a huge thing, but it could make a difference.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it could make a difference. I'm okay with it either way. I'd just need an afternoon when Leaguer's on AIM to iron out how to reconfigure our lists as one large list. I can tell you that Thor's not my first pick, even on the uber list, though. :)
I'll also reiterate my call to let us list alternates. E.g., my list might say:

Dr. Strange
-- alternate: Dr. Fate

Meaning I only want Dr. Fate if I don't get Dr. Strange.

The point is, if I really want an uber mage on my team, I'd want to list a bunch of them (because the first one I list might get taken before it's my pick). But I don't want to accidentally end up drafting three uber mages. Hence, I list one mage, and list the others as alternates in order of preference.
That sounds logical, but then the whole draft list becomes a series of conditional statements rather than a list. It might make things a bit too complicated, especially for wieg, who's gotta do the draft by himself for all of our teams.

[Nightwing.]

well i think it shouldnt matter what combination you have...just so long as you have the right number of ubers,meds and regs in both line up and team.....i think if someone wants 12 DC characters thats upto them and should be allowed....its upto them to try figure out a strategy against a marvel team/number of characters...and could be quite interesting to read.

[wiegeabo]

Yeah, it could make a difference. I'm okay with it either way. I'd just need an afternoon when Leaguer's on AIM to iron out how to reconfigure our lists as one large list. I can tell you that Thor's not my first pick, even on the uber list, though. :)

That sounds logical, but then the whole draft list becomes a series of conditional statements rather than a list. It might make things a bit too complicated, especially for wieg, who's gotta do the draft by himself for all of our teams.

*sniff*

Someone cares how I feel.

Well, Corp/Leaguer just got an automatic win in week 1. :D :word:

[TheCorpulent1]

I knew if I sucked up long enough it'd pay off! :D

[Khellendros]

Wow, I have to say, the idea of letting someone else hand me completely random draft picks for my team makes me nervous. It's not that a lack of trust, just that it basically leaves me completely at the mercy of my luck, which is generally bad.

[XFanTim]

That sounds logical, but then the whole draft list becomes a series of conditional statements rather than a list. It might make things a bit too complicated, especially for wieg, who's gotta do the draft by himself for all of our teams.

I think a standardized format could help. It seems unreasonable for Wieg to have to read through a whole bunch of "if I get this guy, I want that guy, unless I also got so-and-so, and only if such-and-such is still available." But it's not so bad if all he has to read is:

Dr. Strange
-- Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)
-- Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)
-- Ancient One
Flash (Wally West)
-- Flash (Barry Allen)
-- Flash (Bart Allen)
Venom
-- Carnage
-- Spiderman
-- Scarlet Spider

(The characters I've indented with a -- are intended as alternates if the person above them is taken).

It's still a little extra work for Wieg, but in my opinion it's worth it if it means we don't have people accidentally drafting, say, three versions of the Flash for no good reason.

[XFanTim]

Wow, I have to say, the idea of letting someone else hand me completely random draft picks for my team makes me nervous. It's not that a lack of trust, just that it basically leaves me completely at the mercy of my luck, which is generally bad.
You understand it isn't really random, though, right? You submit a list, and you get the top available pick on your list. The only thing that's random is the order in which the picks are given out.

Sure, you could still have bad luck in that other people might grab up all the guys you really want . . . but if so, you can always try to persuade them to trade.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's still a little extra work for Wieg, but in my opinion it's worth it if it means we don't have people accidentally drafting, say, three versions of the Flash for no good reason.
You've still totally lost Week One right there, dude.

I guess that could work, if wieg is up for it. But then, wouldn't we need even more characters on our draft lists? Like this:
Dr. Strange
-- Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)
-- Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)
-- Ancient One

actually only constitutes one draft round and one spot on our team. That's more work for us, too.

[Khellendros]

You understand it isn't really random, though, right? You submit a list, and you get the top available pick on your list. The only thing that's random is the order in which the picks are given out.

Sure, you could still have bad luck in that other people might grab up all the guys you really want . . . but if so, you can always try to persuade them to trade.Ohhh. Nope, didn't get that.

[Nightwing.]

is this thing gonna be kickin off before end of october?

[X]

Wieg is suspicious by his absence!

[Blacklight]

I think a standardized format could help. It seems unreasonable for Wieg to have to read through a whole bunch of "if I get this guy, I want that guy, unless I also got so-and-so, and only if such-and-such is still available." But it's not so bad if all he has to read is:

Dr. Strange
-- Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson)
-- Dr. Fate (Hector Hall)
-- Ancient One
Flash (Wally West)
-- Flash (Barry Allen)
-- Flash (Bart Allen)
Venom
-- Carnage
-- Spiderman
-- Scarlet Spider

(The characters I've indented with a -- are intended as alternates if the person above them is taken).

It's still a little extra work for Wieg, but in my opinion it's worth it if it means we don't have people accidentally drafting, say, three versions of the Flash for no good reason.
I like this idea.

[XFanTim]

actually only constitutes one draft round and one spot on our team. That's more work for us, too.
Not really -- sure I have to list more people for that one round, but I'm much more likely to get one of my choices for that round, so my total list doesn't have to extend as far.

But look, if no one else wants to do it that way, that's fine. However, I'm planning to submit my list with alternates (unless Wieg has some serious objection). I just didn't think it was fair to do it that way if no one else knew it was an option.

[TheCorpulent1]

You work wieg like a slave, you bastard. :(

[wiegeabo]

You work wieg like a slave, you bastard. :(

He's right. Tim, Doom says:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/wiegeabo/Doom-Banned.jpg


And Corp now has two automatic wins!

:p


Seriously, tomorrow I'm going to have my final assessment of these last rules up and give everyone a day to get in some final arguments (which I reserve the right to ignore) and finalize all the teams (as long as there are an even number of teams, we'll be good).

[TheCorpulent1]

I am so awesome it hurts sometimes. :up:

[X]

Disembodied floating demon head for the win!

[Harlekin]

So, what's the new draft deadline? Really haven't followed the discussion, and figured we'd wait with drafts till we've settled those arguments.

[X]

What's the final decision on the draft format, anyway?

[X]

And a final question...

How important do you guys consider organization and leadership in teams in this thing?

[XFanTim]

For me, everything comes down to writeups. If a team has Batman or Thanos or whoever, but then the owner doesn't write them with a clever strategy, it doesn't really matter that Batman should have been able to come up with a clever strategy. On the other hand, if someone has a team full of idiots and has them using a genius strategy, I think their opponent could reasonably object that they were acting out of character.

[Nightwing.]

yeah same goes for me....

the chances of someone writing Rhino out smarting and defeating Spiderman using some crafty elaborate scheme that Mr Fantastic would struggle to come up with and pulling it off are very slim......

Continuity....

[The Leaguer]

I go by alphabetical order. Batman wins over Captain America every time.

[TheCorpulent1]

And everybody beats Zauriel. :up:

[The Leaguer]

I'm talking about leaders, stupidhead. Zauriel wouldn't be a leader, he'd be the guy the leader sent out to kick everyone's asses.

[TheCorpulent1]

Zauriel prays before he fights and says things like, "Be at peace, Ragman. I am with you!" because it's not clear enough from the wings and holy armor that he's an angel. :up:

[The Leaguer]

That's if Willingham is writing him. If it was Morrison, he'd be, "bettah pray, yo!"

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, you just insulted Morrison better than I ever could. :up:

[The Leaguer]

Morrison knows I'm kidding.

Morrison: "Word up, yo."

[TheCorpulent1]

Morrison would probably be more likely to say "cheers" than "yo," don't you think?

[The Leaguer]

No.

Morrison: "Shut the f*** up, ya bloody bastard."

He picks and chooses his American slang carefully.

[TheCorpulent1]

Morrison is ghetto.

[The Leaguer]

Only when he wants to be.

[TheCorpulent1]

Morrison: "Oy, yuir a bloody lying twit, yeh limey Yank!"

[The Leaguer]

"Limey Yank" makes absolutely no sense.

[TheCorpulent1]

Morrison's crazy. It makes sense to him.

[wiegeabo]

So here's how I'm planning to put everything.

The ubar stays where it is, topping out with Thanos and Darkseid.

The ubers won't be split.

Ubers can only fight other ubers unless first attacked by lower ranking characters, or the opponent's ubers have been dealt with.

Trading is open until the playoffs.

Voters will be instructed to base votes on the quality of writeups, not just how the team looks on paper or what they think would happen.

No 'blitzing' the other team.

Prep-time must be taken on the battlefield. Characters will only have access to outside resources if those resources are included in the battlefield.

Characters must have a minimum appearance of at least 1 issue that 'significantly' describes them and their powers.

Characters cannot use any new abilities or technology that appears in comics after the season starts. Anything seen before the start date is fair game.

If you miss two games, you're team is up for grabs. You can reclaim your team once, but if you miss another game, you are out for the season, and your team is up for grabs to anyone else.

Here's the current list of 14 teams:
wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull
Corp
xman
Liquid Green
Khellendros

There's room for 2 more spots, but as long as we have an even number, we're good to go. I'm going to pm everyone just to make sure they're still in this thing (whether you've been recently active in discussions or not). Everyone has to be willing to make this commitment over the next few months.


As for the draft, I think we'll do a snake draft because that's DTL tradition. And it makes sure people at the end get to also be at the beginning. As for the draft itself, it depends how easy or challenging we want it to be. The way I see it, the easiest draft is making a list for each rank and using alternates of characters (like Tim proposed). The most challenging is having a single list with no alternatives (more like regular fantasy drafts).

Although I see the advantages of doing half a team, then another list for the next half, that's essentially two drafts. I'd rather just do one draft and get it over with.

[Blacklight]

So here's how I'm planning to put everything.

The ubar stays where it is, topping out with Thanos and Darkseid.

The ubers won't be split.

Ubers can only fight other ubers unless first attacked by lower ranking characters, or the opponent's ubers have been dealt with.

Trading is open until the playoffs.

Voters will be instructed to base votes on the quality of writeups, not just how the team looks on paper or what they think would happen.

No 'blitzing' the other team.

Prep-time must be taken on the battlefield. Characters will only have access to outside resources if those resources are included in the battlefield.

Characters must have a minimum appearance of at least 1 issue that 'significantly' describes them and their powers.

Characters cannot use any new abilities or technology that appears in comics after the season starts. Anything seen before the start date is fair game.

If you miss two games, you're team is up for grabs. You can reclaim your team once, but if you miss another game, you are out for the season, and your team is up for grabs to anyone else.

Here's the current list of 14 teams:
wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull
Corp
xman
Liquid Green
Khellendros

There's room for 2 more spots, but as long as we have an even number, we're good to go. I'm going to pm everyone just to make sure they're still in this thing (whether you've been recently active in discussions or not). Everyone has to be willing to make this commitment over the next few months.


As for the draft, I think we'll do a snake draft because that's DTL tradition. And it makes sure people at the end get to also be at the beginning. As for the draft itself, it depends how easy or challenging we want it to be. The way I see it, the easiest draft is making a list for each rank and using alternates of characters (like Tim proposed). The most challenging is having a single list with no alternatives (more like regular fantasy drafts).

Although I see the advantages of doing half a team, then another list for the next half, that's essentially two drafts. I'd rather just do one draft and get it over with.
Sweet.

[TheCorpulent1]

Here's the current list of 14 teams:
wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull
Corp
xman
Liquid Green
Khellendros
You counted me twice, wieg.

[Blacklight]

Now, I'm clear on how this picking teams thing will work, but I am a little confused on how the battling works. Anyone care to clarify it please?

[wiegeabo]

You counted me twice, wieg.

So I guess that means you get 4 automatic wins?


So the real list should be:
wiegeabo
X
Leaguer/Corp
Lady Vader
XFanTim
Kaboom
Annoying Silence
Harlekin
Nightwing
Ahura Mazda/Mad Bull
xman
Liquid Green
Khellendros


That's 13. Did I miss anybody?

[X]

Now, I'm clear on how this picking teams thing will work, but I am a little confused on how the battling works. Anyone care to clarify it please?

We each write a handful of paragraphs describing how we feel our team and their characters would win against the others.

We capitalize on the other teams weakness, draw comparisons, overpower or outmanuever them, and so on.

This is done and then both team owners debate with one another for a few days. At the end of that votes are casts by people reading the write-up's based on who they feel did a better job.

[X]

And those rules look good.

I'll shoot a PM or two to the people who said they'd check the DTL out in a few days but haven't yet.

[Blacklight]

We each write a handful of paragraphs describing how we feel our team and their characters would win against the others.

We capitalize on the other teams weakness, draw comparisons, overpower or outmanuever them, and so on.

This is done and then both team owners debate with one another for a few days. At the end of that votes are casts by people reading the write-up's based on who they feel did a better job.
Thanks, X. Now I understand completely.

[X]

Feel free to ask more questions, blacklight. Honestly.

This thing is a bit complicated at times and it'd be good to figure it all out before the season starts. :)

[Blacklight]

Feel free to ask more questions, blacklight. Honestly.

This thing is a bit complicated at times and it'd be good to figure it all out before the season starts. :)
One final question. Can we pick any characters in DCU and MarvelU and WildstormU, or doe we pick from a commissioner created list of characters?

[wiegeabo]

They've got to be willing to commit until probably January. And that goes for everyone. We'll take the holidays of and might have one or two bye weeks, if necessary. But, other than that, everyone needs to participate each week. Otherwise it's not going to be as much fun, and it'll just waste everyone's time.

[wiegeabo]

One final question. Can we pick any characters in DCU and MarvelU and WildstormU, or doe we pick from a commissioner created list of characters?

Anyone is available who isn't tuber.

[X]

They've got to be willing to commit until probably January. And that goes for everyone. We'll take the holidays of and might have one or two bye weeks, if necessary. But, other than that, everyone needs to participate each week. Otherwise it's not going to be as much fun, and it'll just waste everyone's time.

So we're not going to cut weeks up and make everyone read insane amounts of material each and every week?

One final question. Can we pick any characters in DCU and MarvelU and WildstormU, or doe we pick from a commissioner created list of characters?

The picks are completely up to you and no one else.

[Blacklight]

Thank you wieg and X. I'm now ready.

[X]

:):)

No other questions?

[Blacklight]

:):)

No other questions?
No, i'm set.