Dream Team League (Discussion)

[X]

Sue and the entire FF have beaten the Hulk. Big difference.

When exactly did Kitty do this?

Regardless, Thanos has one shotted Heralds. As in Terrax.

That's got everything to do with power, beating him in a fight, which is what constitutes a character being legal in the DTL.

No bad writing about it, as you're mentioning. He's done it against three seperate Heralds.

Couldn't be clearer.

[TheCorpulent1]

Again, I don't personally think Thanos should be legal. If you want to know why he is and others you've mentioned aren't, ask wieg.

I wasn't sure who it was that Kitty beat by phasing them into the floor. I thought it was the Hulk, but then it occurred to me that it might've been Thor or someone else. That's why I changed it to the Spidey/Firelord example. Regardless, my point was that Kitty, a reg, could beat all but the absolutely most durable and strong ubers by phasing them into something else, and it was supposed to illustrate the fact that someone getting beaten by someone in the DTL doesn't necessarily make them legal because lower-level characters beat higher-level ones for any number of reasons all the time, as evidenced by Kitty/whichever powerhouse and Spidey/Firelord.

[X]

Spider-Man vs. Firelord is widely considered on of the very least accurate fights in the history of comics.

And Kitty beat Thor by phasing him into the ground.

Again, there's a difference between beating someone through an exotic power like phasing and flat out beating someone near death with your fists.

Finesse vs. power. And Thanos' beatings of Heralds is purely power.

[AnnoyingSilence]

lol

[AnnoyingSilence]

if thanos is tuber, theres no reason that the rest of the cosmic beings aren't.

anytime Silver Surfer is near death, all he does is reabsorb more cosmic energy.

and bion. just the number of powers he has is tuber.

then you have doomsday. who can NEVER die and can adapt to anything.

then hulk(captain universe) is in it. cable burnt offering.

[Khellendros]

Hey, X? Remember saying this:
I've never gone on for ten pages. Over anything, here or on any other board.?

Yeah, at 30 posts per page, that was on page 530 of this thread, and we're at 542, and we started arguing about it two pages before that. At this point, I'm just scratching my head about why you've got such a boner for Superman 1 million.

[Khellendros]

anytime Silver Surfer is near death, all he does is reabsorb more cosmic energy.I can think of one VERY recent instance where that didn't happen, and I've never read a Silver Surfer comic.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, the Surfer was supposedly even more powerful than usual after re-heralding himself to Galactus.

[wiegeabo]

The battle threads have been posted. Since they're a day late, we'll take an extra day if needed.

Some of the lineups weren't in the update thread, I need to dig through the transactions thread to find them. Also, not every team has a name. Let me know if you want one.

[Khellendros]

Wow... so four teams have to share one thread?

EDIT: Also, wieg, did you ever make a final decision on whether Brainiac/DD can actively use his telepathy?

[TheCorpulent1]

It never gets too confusing. Everyone knows who their opponent is, and voters know which two posters are involved in each battle, so they can just focus on the relevant posts and ignore the rest. We do discourage off-topic stuff a lot more in the actual battle threads than here in Discussion to keep them clutter-free as much as possible, too.

[Khellendros]

It never gets too confusing. Everyone knows who their opponent is, and voters know which two posters are involved in each battle, so they can just focus on the relevant posts and ignore the rest. We do discourage off-topic stuff a lot more in the actual battle threads than here in Discussion to keep them clutter-free as much as possible, too.Cool. I just saw that my match is in its own thread anyways, so that works for me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Even better. :up:

[wiegeabo]

Wow... so four teams have to share one thread?

EDIT: Also, wieg, did you ever make a final decision on whether Brainiac/DD can actively use his telepathy?


I disallowing his telepathy under the assumption he's using all his mental powers to control Doomsday.


It's easy to keep straight what's going on in the battle threads as long as the discussion is confined to the battles. And once a thread is finished, no more posting is allowed. Just let them die.

[Khellendros]

Welp, I just posted the writeup that Ahura wrote. He's out of town, though, so I'm gonna have to handle debating. I assume this is kosher.

[wiegeabo]

Welp, I just posted the writeup that Ahura wrote. He's out of town, though, so I'm gonna have to handle debating. I assume this is kosher.

Since it's unavoidable, yeah.

[Harlekin]

I switched out Talisman for Quicksilver in my week 1 line-up a few days ago.

[Khellendros]

Also, you've got Zeitgeist on Lady Vader's lineup, still.

[wiegeabo]

D'oh and D'oh!

[wiegeabo]

Fixed and Fixed.

LV, I replaced Zeitgeist with Wiccan. If you'd rather have a different regular, let me know.

[Harlekin]

Since I know X was interested in how write-ups would be done, that's how I plan on doing it for the rest of the season.

[Khellendros]

Err, are we able to make changes to our team (as in, draft new characters) already? I thought we had to wait until this week's fighting was done?

EDIT: ******** nevermind, just saw you lifted the restrictions. Ah, well.

[Harlekin]

Yep, we can make changes. Changes don't go into effect until after that week's matches.

[wiegeabo]

You can't change your lineup, but you can change your rosters. I'll ask people start posting next weeks lineup on Monday so it won't be confusing.


Oh, for everyone, if you fail to post a lineup you'll be stuck with the last lineup you used.

[Khellendros]

I see. Wiege, you've got a PM.

[wiegeabo]

Got it, replied.

[Khellendros]

Muhahahahaa

[Harlekin]

Is something dastardly afoot?

[X]

Since I know X was interested in how write-ups would be done, that's how I plan on doing it for the rest of the season.

You're doing what I suggested a while back, or what?

[X]

Maybe to create some discussion...

What are everyones thoughts on All Star Superman as an uber? A nod to Pre-Crisis Superman, basically. A more powerful Superman with the super genius bit intact.

Good uber, would you just prefer Majestic, what?

[Khellendros]

Maybe to create some discussion...

What are everyones thoughts on All Star Superman as an uber? A nod to Pre-Crisis Superman, basically. A more powerful Superman with the super genius bit intact.

Good uber, would you just prefer Majestic, what?Hmm. I personally would take Majestic, just because I like him more, but All Star Superman would probably beat him in a straight-up fight, though a prep war might be debateable..

[X]

Well, All Star Superman hasn't shown the ability to apply his intelligence at super-speed like Majestic.

Superman has a massive durability advantage. Remember how he was in the sun?

Majestic couldn't do that.

[Khellendros]

Well, All Star Superman hasn't shown the ability to apply his intelligence at super-speed like Majestic.

Superman has a massive durability advantage. Remember how he was in the sun?

Majestic couldn't do that.
Yeah, a prep war between the two would be more interesting, to me, than just a straight-up fight. I just had this image of flocks of Superman robots battling it out with upgraded Spartan androids.

[X]

Hah... I'd pay to see that.

Check out the transaction thread if you get the chance tonight.

[Blacklight]

Where are the write-ups written?

[X]

In the Week 1 threads that are in the DTL forum.

[Blacklight]

In the Week 1 threads that are in the DTL forum.
Thanks. Just needed confirmation.

[X]

No problem. What I'm here for.

Just post in whichever one of the four threads that has your match in it.

[Harlekin]

You're doing what I suggested a while back, or what?
Similar I believe, to what you had suggested. No two-on-two's yet though.

By the way, I figure we keep comments on write-up styles to the discussion thread? Not that I specifically mind you or anyone else commenting quickly on structure, but it does break the flow of the thread a little.

[X]

I didn't do two on two matches week one either. I might if I want to explicitly highlight teamwork, maybe... But besides that...

[Harlekin]

I did it a few times last season. In some fights it works, and in others it doesn't.

[X]

Why doesn't it work at times?

[Harlekin]

Because it requires characters that know each other. Like last season, I had my Spidey/Cosmic Johnny Storm team battle against Corp's Black Knight/Sersi. I could now easily team up Beast and Cyclops. Thing is, not everyone has characters that keyed into one another, so it would be more logical for them to fight alone. After all, we need to stay in-character.

[X]

True.

A strong central leader could make that go a long way, though.

Look at Dr. Doom during Secret Wars. He made villains with absolutely no connection to one another a unified fighting force in no time.

[Harlekin]

That certainly applies, but with a team of five, you can't always take the strong central leader with you.

[X]

Helps to have multiple strong leads scattered among your 12 person roster, even if all aren't of the same high quality. :)

[Harlekin]

Yep, or just have a team that's familiar with each other.

I'm not really worried about leadership though. I've got top-tiers Cyclops, Mr. Terrific and Sand. After that, you still have Aquaman, Thor, Beast and Quasar.

[X]

Finally got around to getting the scans I really wanted to show.

I know Superman One Million has more or less already been ruled too uber and that's the consenus on him, but here they are anyway.

This is his most recent appearance from a few months ago. This isn't a weakened Superman One Million (I can leap from world to world!) nor is it written by a different writer. This is Grant Morrison, the writer of DC One Million.

I figured it'd be relevant. People saw other feats, ones that were nods to insane Pre-Crisis DC times, and judged him off that. Rightfully so. But this is really his only fight scene, and I think it goes a long way in showing how powerful he is, more so than cartoony feats.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=10.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=11.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=13.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=14.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=16.jpg

This isn't the All Star Superman that we saw at the beginning of his title, dying from too much solar energy. This is the earlier, weaker All Star Superman. More or less, this is Superman One Million vs. modern day Superman. And like I said days ago, Superman One Million is comfortably above him, but not leagues more than say Superman with a Green Lantern ring is beyond normal Superman.

Superman affects him with his heat vision, they have a short physical tussle, Krypto affects him, all that. Superman One Million has a clear advantage through and through, but let me ask you this...

Does he have a bigger advantage than Thanos does over a Herald?

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd say yeah. He's apparently significantly stronger, since he clearly dominated what little of a fight that was, plus he's got a greater quantity of powers that Superman doesn't, compared to how many actual extra powers Thanos has over a herald. Heralds can do just about everything Thanos can, just not anywhere near the level Thanos can do it on. Superman 1M seems to have all of Superman's powers, at greater levels, plus other powers.

Granted, I may be biased because, if we're really looking at stabilizing the uber bar at a final level, I still don't think Thanos himself should be allowed.

[X]

Eh, there really wasn't much to dominate. He in his own words is faster, and stronger. He didn't knock out Superman with a single move, nor did he even do more than stun him for a moment.

I took it as All Star Superman being far less than he would later become when supercharged on solar power. That he'd one day be on, or very close to, Superman One Million. Superman One Million says something very close to that.

Thanos does have powers a herald doesn't. At least Xavier level telepathy. He's completey and totally telepathy proof as well.

[Harlekin]

I'd like to note that Superman with GL ring was also ruled tuber at one time.

[TheCorpulent1]

Okay, but supercharged All Star Superman is irrelevant because you said the All Star Superman in the scans is equal to modern-day Superman, and Superman 1M is definitely stronger and faster than that version.

I know Thanos has powers a herald doesn't. I said Superman 1M has a greater number of powers over Superman than Thanos has over a herald. The telepathy is pretty much it for Thanos, since we're no longer assuming that his augmenting his body through sorcery means he can use magic offensively now.

Ultimately, I don't really care either way. The uber bar's never quite been where I personally want it to be, so I'll grin and bear it if anyone's let in.

[X]

But All Star Superman and even modern day Superman can supercharge themselves in the DTL to even the playing field. If All Star Superman were to do this, he more is less is Superman One Million.

Modern day Superman was a planet mover while sun dipped.

Superman One Million may have more powers than normal Superman, but the gap between him and Superman isn't as large as Thanos' is over Superman, or other Heralds.

[X]

I'd like to note that Superman with GL ring was also ruled tuber at one time.

I'm pretty sure he became legal again, at one point.

[Harlekin]

Yeah, just figured I'd note it.

[TheCorpulent1]

But All Star Superman and even modern day Superman can supercharge themselves in the DTL to even the playing field. If All Star Superman were to do this, he more is less is Superman One Million.

Modern day Superman was a planet mover while sun dipped.

Superman One Million may have more powers than normal Superman, but the gap between him and Superman isn't as large as Thanos' is over Superman, or other Heralds.
If an owner had any incarnation of Superman other than the really, really weak Byrne version take a sun-dip, I would vote against them in a heartbeat.

I'm still against Thanos, too. With Thanos in the DTL, I admit, I'm not totally averse to allowing Superman 1M in. I'd personally like to err the other way and toss Thanos out, though.

Maybe you should just wait until someone who can rationally justify Thanos' presence in the DTL comes along to continue this debate.

[wiegeabo]

Well, I remembered to go back and actually tally up those tuber votes. Here were the results:

King Thor, BION, Fury, Supes1M, and Else-Man were pretty clearly regarded as tuber.

Darkseid (post-crisis) was easily uber.

Thanos was considered slightly more uber than tuber.


Now, what I could do to 'straighten out' the uber bar and get a little more consistency is consider Thanos and Green Lantern (Kal-El) as tubers. Then the new bar would be set at Darkseid (post-crisis) and Silver Surfer.

[TheCorpulent1]

Works for me. That's the uber bar level I've been pulling for since we lowered it again. I believe the reasoning I got when Thanos was allowed back then was, "Because people like him."

[X]

Well, I remembered to go back and actually tally up those tuber votes. Here were the results:

King Thor, BION, Fury, Supes1M, and Else-Man were pretty clearly regarded as tuber.

Darkseid (post-crisis) was easily uber.

Thanos was considered slightly more uber than tuber.


Now, what I could do to 'straighten out' the uber bar and get a little more consistency is consider Thanos and Green Lantern (Kal-El) as tubers. Then the new bar would be set at Darkseid (post-crisis) and Silver Surfer.

Wieg, current Darkseid is below Superman.

That's a horrible place for the bar to be considering his fall from grace.

What do you think of the scans, at least.

[X]

Works for me. That's the uber bar level I've been pulling for since we lowered it again. I believe the reasoning I got when Thanos was allowed back then was, "Because people like him."

Well, what do you feel the benefits of a lowered uber bar would be? More creativity? Fair play?

Who exactly would you have out of here instantly, without a seconds thought?

[wiegeabo]

Wieg, current Darkseid is below Superman.

That's a horrible place for the bar to be considering his fall from grace.

What do you think of the scans, at least.

That's never how I think of him. I always consider far above Superman (just far below the old school 'seid).

Would Doomsday (or Doomsday/Brainiac) be a better DC bar setter?

[X]

Honestly, Wieg... Doomsday at his higher showings is the closet thing to DC has to Doomsday. They're perfect parallels to one another in terms of raw power, unstoppability, and where they stand compared to the top tiers of their universes.

I just posted scans of Superman One Million having an advantage over Superman. Singular. A single top tier.

Doomsday Brainiac beat half a dozen Superman level characters at once. Superman. Wonder Woman. Orion, The Martrian Manhunter. Wonder Woman. The Flash.

Thanos has done the exact same thing to groups of Marvel heroes.

WHAT exactly makes Superman One Million too uber?

[TheCorpulent1]

If Takion is supposed to be DC's Silver Surfer, wouldn't he be a better bar-setter? Physical and energy powerhouses who can do lots but can still clearly be beaten one-on-one by someone of comparable power. That's what I'm thinking of as the top-most level for ubers.

[X]

Also, I think Thanos and Doomsday Brainiac should be about the top of our totem pole.

Both have been allowed for a very long time, and both characters are already in use.

I'm not big on pulling the carpet out from people. Lets start not allowing people. We can do the "count down" that was suggested.

Star with say, Tyrant or some such, and go down until we've figured it out?

[X]

If Takion is supposed to be DC's Silver Surfer, wouldn't he be a better bar-setter? Physical and energy powerhouses who can do lots but can still clearly be beaten one-on-one by someone of comparable power. That's what I'm thinking of as the top-most level for ubers.

I brought this up weeks ago and no one batted an eye.

He's the Silver Surfer with a less durable physical form. A meteor dispersed him.

Him being too uber was another knee jerk reaction that if you asked anyone here for details over they'd shrug their shoulders and ask anyone else if they knew, or just avoid the question completely.

[X]

I really don't even care if I get Superman One Million anymore, but we're supposedly weeding out characters and working our way down to see where we should go, so I guess he warrants mentioning.

[X]

Also, I think Doomsday Brainiac and co are good high end ubers because single top tiers have come up with inventive ways to beat him more than once.

In Hunter/Prey, Superman and Waverider brought Doomsday to the end of time and left him there.

In Doomsday Wars, they teleported him and never had him reforming.

[Harlekin]

Guys (read: X), I know we're excited about the new season. Heck, I'm excited by the new season. Let's keep everything not pertaining directly to write-ups (especially matches you don't participate in) in the discussion thread. It clutters up the match threads needlessly.

[X]

Yeah, thanks for singling me out, Harlekin. :(

[Harlekin]

You know nothing will ever come between our love anyway.

[wiegeabo]

No one should be posting in the match threads right now except the owners competing in those threads. Debates will be opened up once the writeup time has passed.

[X]

You know nothing will ever come between our love anyway.

Not with you clenching you cheeks like that... :csad:

No one should be posting in the match threads right now except the owners competing in those threads. Debates will be opened up once the writeup time has passed.

So we can't debate, at all, until they "open"? What if we're both ready before hand?

When do they open anyway?

[wiegeabo]

Owners can debate their matches all they want whenever they want. But non-owners need to wait.

Normally I'd open them on Monday, but since I got the threads open late and a couple of people need more time, matches will stay open Monday and debates start Tuesday.

[X]

Okay, that works.

Thanks Wieg.

[Harlekin]

Wha? Non-owners debate too? Since when? Or am I getting something wrong?

Also, Kaboom, Infinity Gauntlet makes anybody automatically tuber.

[wiegeabo]

Wha? Non-owners debate too? Since when? Or am I getting something wrong?

Also, Kaboom, Infinity Gauntlet makes anybody automatically tuber.

Non-owners have always been able to put in their two cents (at least for the seasons I can remember).


...wait. Or did we decide not to do that this season and just let them put in a brief comment as they voted? :confused:

[Nightwing.]

Well ive gone for the debate side of battle and i didnt like it....however im glad that this weeks battle is over cos i struggled with my opponents...i really did....

Harl, im guessing you've read everyones so far...if not care to give mine a once over pm me when you have....might have a few questions for ya

[X]

Harl's just a no good fun hating bastard.

[Harlekin]

Non-owners have always been able to put in their two cents (at least for the seasons I can remember).


...wait. Or did we decide not to do that this season and just let them put in a brief comment as they voted? :confused:
:confused:

As I recall, they were only allowed to do so when voting. Otherwise, it kinda takes away from the competition aspect. This is also why, as I recall, we had the write-up times and debating times. You'd have the structured write-ups following each other, and then you'd have the debates.

If I'm wrong, I apologize (especially to X), but that's as I remember the DTL.

Sadly, we've lost a large number of the old threads.

I've read your write-up Nightwing. PM me your questions.

[X]

Didn't we just have everything archived a few months ago? Leaguer posted the links and everything in the old update thread...

[Harlekin]

From last season's match threads:
Days 1-4 (Thursday-Sunday) are strictly setup time for owners to plead their cases, tell us their team’s strategies, breakdown the match ups, and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory. Please, let the owners do this on their own with no help from you, the fan.

When Day 5 (Monday) rolls around, I’ll post and tell everyone that voting may begin. Only after doing so will voting start. Any votes cast before I open voting will not count.
To vote, look over the matchups and read the owners strategies and take them into consideration. Afterwards, use your best judgment to decide who you think has the best chance to win the match up and post up the teams you think will prevail.

[Nightwing.]

X what did you mean by 'Sold Stuff'?

[Harlekin]

X, I hate to be a *****, but what about "No one should be posting in the match threads right now except the owners competing in those threads." didn't you get?

[wiegeabo]

Didn't we just have everything archived a few months ago? Leaguer posted the links and everything in the old update thread...

When the hype purged in April, the deleted a ton of threads, including a lot of our old battle threads. And unless they archived all the old stuff somewhere, then there gone.

[X]

Come again?

And I think Harlekin's misinterpreting what's written in the rules or something. It seems there's room for the owners to debate whenever they want.

"and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory."

As in debating...?

[X]

X, I hate to be a *****, but what about "No one should be posting in the match threads right now except the owners competing in those threads." didn't you get?

I can't compliment someone on good writing? :huh:

[X]

When the hype purged in April, the deleted a ton of threads, including a lot of our old battle threads. And unless they archived all the old stuff somewhere, then there gone.

That's throughly depressing.

[Kaboom]

anybody who wants to pm me what they think abut my write up (it was my first ever and of course i need a lil feed back) id appreciate it.

[X]

Yes, PM him. Don't Post A Single Comment In The Week Two Thread Telling Him How He Did, Or Tim And Wiegabo Will Castrate You With A Pair Of Salad Tongs! :wow: :woot:

[wiegeabo]

I can't compliment someone on good writing? :huh:

Why not just do it in the discussion thread? That's what it's for.

[X]

Why not just do it in the discussion thread? That's what it's for.

No one's posting in the weekly threads. I figured I'd at least try to get something going in them.

[Harlekin]

They'll post eventually. They have to.

And I'm now confused on the debating thing, since, if debating is allowed, there's no logical need for "debating time".

[wiegeabo]

The idea is that, during writeup time, owners post their matches and debate them like normal.

Then, during debate time, other players can add their comments to the fire.


But now I've confused myself because I think we decided not to allow others to debate but just post a comment when they vote (like we do for Contest of Marvels).

[X]

Maybe we just need a time to be set for votes to be cast then.

They really don't "have" to do anything. That's why I and a lot of other people dropped out of the DTL. Lack of... I don't know, drive? Feeling like you're not accomplishing anything, no one gives a **** about you're writing. It's effort, one way or another. If I don't feel like it's worth me applying myself to... Eh.

[Nightwing.]

i thought the idea was post your stories/points of view...wait for votes to be over then debate.....is this right or have i got the votes and debating the wrong way round?

[Harlekin]

It's write-ups, debating, voting. Which is the most logical, and was exactly how it used to be. There was never any time when others got their say. That goes against the grain of the competition. I don't mind debates being open immediately, but I would add to the rules that you a) have to post your own write-up first, and b) wait for the other to finisher his/her write-up.

[Nightwing.]

yeah thats what i thought....i knew it was something like that....basically nothing can be debated until all write ups for that thread are in there....otherwise people will have to jump pages to read two parts to a story.....

[X]

It's write-ups, debating, voting. Which is the most logical, and was exactly how it used to be. There was never any time when others got their say. That goes against the grain of the competition. I don't mind debates being open immediately, but I would add to the rules that you a) have to post your own write-up first, and b) wait for the other to finisher his/her write-up.

Well, of course there's not going to be debating until both write-ups are finished.

What would there be to debate otherwise?

[Nightwing.]

i think the idea is to wait til all write ups are in the thread not just yours and your opponents....people dont want to have to wade through pages and pages of your debates just to read the other teams battles....

[wiegeabo]

There's no point in debating when votes are done.


I've looked back over some previous posts, looks like we decided to have writeups end on Sunday (in a normal week). Then owners could debate starting Monday. Wednesday would start voting and end debates. Only owners could debate, although voters could post a short comment about a match as they voted to give owners feedback within the thread.


Now, I'm not too concerned about debates starting early if both owners have finished posting, especially since this is the first week. But I don't want to see any debating until then. And I'd rather wait until debating officially open so that all the writeup posts for both matches in a thread are lumped together and readers don't have to go searching for them.

[X]

Eh, no threads are going to be that long. As to make browsing through them a chore.

Eh.

[Harlekin]

Well, of course there's not going to be debating until both write-ups are finished.

What would there be to debate otherwise?
Which is why you immediately debated Kaboom's prep-time?

[X]

It's a part of his write-up, not some figment of my imagination on what he MIGHT do.

If he finished his entire write-up at once... Yup, first thing I'd debate would be his prep-time.

So what's the problem?

[Harlekin]

The problem was he hadn't even finished posting the rest of his write-up yet.

A write-up is prep-time AND battle.

So when you say that you'll wait for someone to post his full write-up, and then immediately debate a piece of it, even though you know it's not done yet, you're just being silly.

[X]

I didn't say I'd wait for the entire thing to be posted. I asked what there'd be to debate if something hadn't been posted yet, period.

[Harlekin]

"Well, of course there's not going to be debating until both write-ups are finished."

But hey, whatever floats your boat. I don't really care anymore.

EDIT: And on that note, I'm hitting the hay. Ya'all stay out of trouble now.

[X]

Debating. As in both people having one. Back and forth? What we were supposed to be waiting on?

I threw my input at his prep time. Not a whole lot else I could do.

Considering this is legal and allowed regardless, I'm not getting your aggrivation over the matter, nor you attempting to enforce it earlier?

[Kaboom]

X heads up, I had to change something in the last batle, replacing the gauntlet with the ultimate nullifier since i wasnt aware the gauntlet makes a character Tuber immediately. Spirit of the battle is the same, weapon is just different.

[X]

Okay, thanks.

[Nightwing.]

But X,you debating his preptime is in effect gonna change his write up which means your breaking the rules...just like he cant edit his write up once its posted, you cant say anything inbetween preptime and battles....cos if you were to start laying into his strategy before hes posted the battles then this could cause him to have to change making him either miss the deadline or have him change to something he doesnt find as plausible...if someone ripped your preptime and your strategy before you post the battles it wouldnt leave you with any confidence in your battle plans....just leave things UNTIL ALL BATTLES FROM A THREAD ARE POSTEDnot just yours and his....

[X]

I'm used to people posting their entire write-up at one time, hence me commenting on it as he put it out.

My mistake, then.

And who's to say his mind would be changed for the worse? If anything it might give him ideas on what to and not to do. Wouldn't all be bad.

[Nightwing.]

yeah but that risk cant be taken....its another 'in effect' moment here but it is giving him the opportunity to edit which yes it maybe beneficial to him but then again if he cant edit for the best and therefore cant place anything in the thread in time you have infact pretty much earnt yourself a free win...which is not only unfair to him but its cheating....whether you intend to or not delaying someone elses wirte up is not good

[X]

I'll stop doing it then.

That's actual reasoning that I can understand, as opposed to a slap on the wrist and being told "It's not what we do!".

[Harlekin]

X heads up, I had to change something in the last batle, replacing the gauntlet with the ultimate nullifier since i wasnt aware the gauntlet makes a character Tuber immediately. Spirit of the battle is the same, weapon is just different.
You are aware that the Ultimate Nullifier can destroy the universe and more, right?

And yeah, Nightwing basically made my point, which I also outlined to Kaboom over PM.

Lastly, because I can't leave it unfinished...

Debating. As in both people having one. Back and forth? What we were supposed to be waiting on?

I threw my input at his prep time. Not a whole lot else I could do.
Semantics. Giving your in-put automatically leads to a debate, which was my point with waiting till he's finished.

[Harlekin]

Just read Dark Gog's write-up. I think it's time we clearly add to the rules that you're not supposed to comment on your opponent's write-up till you've made your own, which should be stand-alone. Write-ups are like the first few minutes in a debate, where both sides lay out their view. AFTER that, they debate.

[Nightwing.]

Yeah was just about to say that Harl.Just read it and his opening line is in reference to my Write-up which DG isnt allowed...You cant use my writep as basis for yours...it has to be your own idea...your not countering mine your crating your own ideas of how your team would win.....

all the way through you have reference to my stratergy and how it would be countered which is something that is more to be left til the debate section...what you put in your write up is a clear exampleof what YOU think your team would do in this situation....write it as if your the first to post the battle...dont look to your opponents for inspiration (see mine and Harls previous posts to X inrelation to a similar topic...)once everyone has finished posting in our thread then we can obviously debate however i dont know what Weig's standing will be on this weeks write ups....

[Nightwing.]

Well Kaboom you mentioned that you werent too happy about X laying into your preptime yet once Harl posted stating you couldnt mention about X's write up you start your battle part 2 with a reference to X's write up...this isnt allowed.

People need to start listenin to what other folk are saying.

[Harlekin]

I've talked to Kaboom about this over PMs. It's cool now.

[Nightwing.]

Ah fair enough.Ignore what i said then lol

[Kaboom]

Well Kaboom you mentioned that you werent too happy about X laying into your preptime yet once Harl posted stating you couldnt mention about X's write up you start your battle part 2 with a reference to X's write up...this isnt allowed.

People need to start listenin to what other folk are saying.

I've talked to Kaboom about this over PMs. It's cool now.
sheesh.

i think i made two references to X's writing.
1-my strataegy isnt like his;
2- that a certain battle would be just as epic as X said.

and that was about as specific as i got in both of them. It was also before I was aware of the rule. This was of course MY FIRST WRITE UP EVER. Harl and I spoke about it over pm. Its all straightened out. And there are no hard feelings between X and I, and we've even gone out of our way to make sure the other is/was aware of the updates and mistakes.

I dont know if Nightwing is a "mod" in this thing or what, but really the issues been settled and you dont need to be all "folks need to listen to whats being said" especially when youre showing up late to a conversation thats already done and settled.

[X]

Yeah, me and Kaboom were pretty damned accommodating to one another even before the constant slaps on the wrist.

It his first write-up ever and I haven't done this in a year and a half, at least, since when rules were different.

I look at it as week one things being ironed out. Seemingly, others feel the need to come down like some stern rule enforcing wrath of god over it.

[Harlekin]

Which is my cue to apologize for my up-tightness. I have been acting like a little nazi, and well, I went a little over the top with the strictness. Sorry folks.

[Nightwing.]

sheesh.

i think i made two references to X's writing.
1-my strataegy isnt like his;
2- that a certain battle would be just as epic as X said.

and that was about as specific as i got in both of them. It was also before I was aware of the rule. This was of course MY FIRST WRITE UP EVER. Harl and I spoke about it over pm. Its all straightened out. And there are no hard feelings between X and I, and we've even gone out of our way to make sure the other is/was aware of the updates and mistakes.

I dont know if Nightwing is a "mod" in this thing or what, but really the issues been settled and you dont need to be all "folks need to listen to whats being said" especially when youre showing up late to a conversation thats already done and settled.

which is why i put straight after to ignore what i had said....and regardless of whether i came into the discussion beginning middle or end if its in pm's noone knows about it...so i was unaware that you and harl had discussed it...

so well end it there.

[Khellendros]

Yeah, I am purposely going to do what Harlekin has asked that not be done. Because I am not pro-Nazi.

[Dark Gog]

Just read Dark Gog's write-up. I think it's time we clearly add to the rules that you're not supposed to comment on your opponent's write-up till you've made your own, which should be stand-alone. Write-ups are like the first few minutes in a debate, where both sides lay out their view. AFTER that, they debate.

Maybe we should, since it's for precisely that reason that I asked earlier whether I should forward my strategy in advance to anyone. But as long as both write-ups aren't posted at the same time, it seems flawed to pretend that we're going-in blind, as one party at-least will have the advantage of being able to look-up their opponents thoughts, regardless of whether or not they do so in practice.

In any event, my preliminary write-up would have been little different had I not seen Nightwing's. Outside of the few direct references to his post that I made, I've known what points I wanted to touch upon since about the time we'd given our innitial line-ups.

[wiegeabo]

Maybe we should, since it's for precisely that reason that I asked earlier whether I should forward my strategy in advance to anyone. But as long as both write-ups aren't posted at the same time, it seems flawed to pretend that we're going-in blind, as one party at-least will have the advantage of being able to look-up their opponents thoughts, regardless of whether or not they do so in practice.

In any event, my preliminary write-up would have been little different had I not seen Nightwing's. Outside of the few direct references to his post that I made, I've known what points I wanted to touch upon since about the time we'd given our innitial line-ups.


This has always been a problem with the DTL. Unless both writeups are posted at the same time, whoever posts second technically has the advantage. But we've always use d the honor system here. A player shouldn't read their opponent's lineup until they've posted theres.


Also, no editing a lineup once it's posted (except for really bad spelling and grammar). In effect, no changing strategies once you've set them in stone. I'm not going to be a stickler for these rules this first week since those of us who aren't new are extremely rusty at this. And they're not even officially posted in the rules. But I'll add them when I get the chance.

[Dark Gog]

Anyone else feel a few people are getting a little lazy when it comes to supplying a description for their team? It's great to have links we can go to, but there should probably still be a small blurb describing the basics of the characters.

Also, does anyone have a problem seeing the following as mid-tiers:

-Etrigan
-The Turtle
-Brainiac 417
-Johnny Sorrow


And possibly New Sun and the new Blue Beetle, neither of whom I'm at all familiar with, other than hearsay.

[Kaboom]

Anyone else feel a few people are getting a little lazy when it comes to supplying a description for their team? It's great to have links we can go to, but there should probably still be a small blurb describing the basics of the characters.

Also, does anyone have a problem seeing the following as mid-tiers:

-Etrigan
-The Turtle
-Brainiac 417
-Johnny Sorrow


And possibly New Sun and the new Blue Beetle, neither of whom I'm at all familiar with, other than hearsay.

the only two characters im familiar with are etrigan and braniac 417 after reading the write up abou thim.

I think Braniac 417 by himself with the mon-elves is probably pushing the uber bar, but could still be a mid. But the fact that he can create devices that allow his team to mimic all kinds of powers pushes him to Uber status at least in my view.

as for etrigan, hes strong and urable, and wields magic....certainly no reg, but certainly not uber either. Its not like his command over magic is fate of strange level.

[Dark Gog]

Etrigan's beaten Wonder-Women and punched Superman to the moon.

[Dark Gog]

This has always been a problem with the DTL. Unless both writeups are posted at the same time, whoever posts second technically has the advantage. But we've always use d the honor system here. A player shouldn't read their opponent's lineup until they've posted theres.

Why not simply forward write-ups in advance and have a mod/commish post them simultaneously then?

[Dark Gog]

Who? seems to have gotten The Interloper as a middle-weight. I was under the impression he was on par or better than just about every single Eternal other than the Prime.

[Kaboom]

Etrigan's beaten Wonder-Women and punched Superman to the moon.

etrigans powers are magic based that exploits a specific weakness superman has. im not familiar with his besting of ww.

[Khellendros]

Anyone else feel a few people are getting a little lazy when it comes to supplying a description for their team? It's great to have links we can go to, but there should probably still be a small blurb describing the basics of the characters.

Also, does anyone have a problem seeing the following as mid-tiers:

-Etrigan
-The Turtle
-Brainiac 417
-Johnny Sorrow


And possibly New Sun and the new Blue Beetle, neither of whom I'm at all familiar with, other than hearsay.
What's wrong with Brainiac as a middleweight? He's intangible, sure, but he's also very vulnerable to telepathy.

I think Braniac 417 by himself with the mon-elves is probably pushing the uber bar, but could still be a mid. But the fact that he can create devices that allow his team to mimic all kinds of powers pushes him to Uber status at least in my view.He's got three Mon Els, each which operate at around an eighth of a normal Daxamite. So, intangible plus three tiny assistance who comprise 3/8 of a normal Daxamite. And, what powers is he allowing the team to mimic?


Who? seems to have gotten The Interloper as a middle-weight. I was under the impression he was on par or better than just about every single Eternal other than the Prime.Holy ****, yeah, Interloper is a BAD ASS,and if Thena and Ikaris are Ubers (which, at least with Thena, is something I agree with) Interloper definitely should.

[Kaboom]

What's wrong with Brainiac as a middleweight? He's intangible, sure, but he's also very vulnerable to telepathy.

He's got three Mon Els, each which operate at around an eighth of a normal Daxamite. So, intangible plus three tiny assistance who comprise 3/8 of a normal Daxamite. And, what powers is he allowing the team to mimic?





Brainiac using replication technology provides each of his allies a copy of his BELT fully explaining the uses, as well as a FLIGHT RING and Xavier hands everyone POWER STEALING GAS PELLETS (Brainiac replicated the formula Xavier had and improved the delivery mechanism). Brainiac hands over to Xavier psi-blocking technology from the 853rd century after explaining that was how Brainiac was taken out of Doomsday’s mind when they fought in the past.

Brainiac also hands Midnighter different weapons taken from the 853rd century including explosives and other close-range melee weaponry, along with depowering gas.

Therefore to recap everything:

Each team member has:

- A teleportation device (capable of time travel and cross dimensional teleportation)
- Very effective shields which all but Brainiac use defensively.
- Flight rings (the whole legion had one)
- Scanning devices
- Gas shooting guns which rob super-humans of their superpowers
- Communication devices which allow everyone to stay in contact across dimensions



Thats what you posted in your battle

[Khellendros]

Thats what you posted in your battle
He gave them copies of his belt which give him his teleporting/shield. He replicated the depowering gas that Juggernaut invented in his universe. He gave them stuff to keep in contact, and scan the environment. That's nothing other tech-based heroes couldn't do, assuming they had the knowledge, or someone else had the knowledge and they had a telepath to link up their minds. Engineer could do something similar. Madison Jeffries could do something similar. Tony Stark, if he had lab access, could do similar.

[Nightwing.]

when i had Turtle he was ranked at reg and i dont see why hes been pushed up to be honest....

[wiegeabo]

I'm wondering if we should keep a massive list of characters in the update thread with names and powers (descriptions wouldn't really be necessary).

[Kaboom]

He gave them copies of his belt which give him his teleporting/shield. He replicated the depowering gas that Juggernaut invented in his universe. He gave them stuff to keep in contact, and scan the environment. That's nothing other tech-based heroes couldn't do, assuming they had the knowledge, or someone else had the knowledge and they had a telepath to link up their minds. Engineer could do something similar. Madison Jeffries could do something similar. Tony Stark, if he had lab access, could do similar.

so for lab access takes how long to make something, and you need to be able to get to the lab.

youre guy can fabricate it instantly.

[Khellendros]

so for lab access takes how long to make something, and you need to be able to get to the lab.

youre guy can fabricate it instantly.
Uhh, did I/the writeup say instantly? They have a whole 24 hours of prep time. And, Engineer COULD do it near-instantly.

I'm wondering if we should keep a massive list of characters in the update thread with names and powers (descriptions wouldn't really be necessary).Well, those small descriptions that the other team is supposed tog et would still be necessary...

[XFanTim]

Working on my writeup now -- should be up tonight. But just to comment quickly...

Regarding Thanos -- I thought the only reason we've continued to allow him is because we were treating him as a somewhat downplayed version. Closer to Silver Surfer in power than to Odin. But maybe that portrayal isn't well supported by the comics. If he's really 2-3 times a herald, as X says, we should ban him.

In general, my response to: "Ridiculously Powerful Character A is allowed, so we should allow Ridiculously Powerful Character B" is "Nah, just ban Character A." Otherwise the bar will just keep inching up. I'd say the Silver Surfer should be, if not the most powerful uber, at least on par with the most powerful ubers. Anyone blatantly beyond the Surfer should be tuber.

Haven't had time to look at X's scans yet (got to finish my writeup first), but I'm initially skeptical about Keeper. Surfer + Quasar > Supes + GL, because Surfer >> Superman in my opinion. I'll reassess once I've seen the pics, but I'd be interested to see more discussion.

[XFanTim]

One more thing on Thanos:

We should only allow a downgraded barely above Surfer-level version if there are a reasonable number of his appearances that justify that portrayal. We shouldn't pretend a character is weaker than he is just to make him DTL legal.

For instance, we allow pussified-Darkseid because we've actually seen this version in the comics. If Darkseid was still being portrayed as a Skyfather-level badass, he'd be tuber.

So is it reasonable to treat Thanos as "Surfer plus a little more", or not?

[Khellendros]

One more thing on Thanos:

We should only allow a downgraded barely above Surfer-level version if there are a reasonable number of his appearances that justify that portrayal. We shouldn't pretend a character is weaker than he is just to make him DTL legal.

For instance, we allow pussified-Darkseid because we've actually seen this version in the comics. If Darkseid was still being portrayed as a Skyfather-level badass, he'd be tuber.

So is it reasonable to treat Thanos as "Surfer plus a little more", or not?I'd be VERY interested in seeing which appearances Thanos (and not clones) had that showed him as being only slightly above Surfer. Still, though, I'd be fine keeping normal Thanos in play.

[Dark Gog]

What's wrong with Brainiac as a middleweight? He's intangible, sure, but he's also very vulnerable to telepathy.

"Very vulnerable"? Your write-up suggests he has his own. Plus what seems to be top-tier or close force-fields and a small army of tiny Supermen.

The Elves alone can decimate most Mids. How is he less formidable than a highly competent eternal? (And how does an energy/spiritual being wear a belt?)

Holy ****, yeah, Interloper is a BAD ASS,and if Thena and Ikaris are Ubers (which, at least with Thena, is something I agree with) Interloper definitely should.I can see Thena as an Uber, but Ikaris? He's more versatile than powerful.


How about the others? The Turtle froze a city with little effort and just about toyed with the Flash. Etrigan's C100 with other powers. The New Sun is supposed to be a more versatile Turtle. And Blue Beetle's on par with a GL(?).

[Khellendros]

"Very vulnerable"? Your write-up suggests he has his own. Plus what seems to be top-tier or close force-fields and a small army of tiny Supermen.He can, apparently, reach into someone's head and communicate with them that way. Doesn't mean he showed any sort of defense against true telepathic attacks. I don't know about top tier, but they couldn't contain those random metal-eating monsters. Also, since when does 3 = small army?

The Elves alone can decimate most Mids. How is he less formidable than a highly competent eternal? (And how does an energy/spiritual being wear a belt?)Decimate? REALLY? Unlikely. Comparing him to other tech heroes again: Engineer would hold her own, as would Jeffries in his Box armor, and Iron Man would do very well, I should think. And, I don't know how he managed to wear the belt. I mean, it appeared that the force field was how he interacted with the physical world, so it could have anchored itself and the belt (which seemed to be the source of it and the teleporter) to him? No clue, man. All I know is, when he wanted to, he could punch things and interact physically, but other times it was made perfectly clear that he had no body, and didn't interact with the physical world unless he wanted to.

I can see Thena as an Uber, but Ikaris? He's more versatile than powerful.Yeah, Ikaris is iffy. Still, the crazy regen they have... I dunno.


How about the others? The Turtle froze a city with little effort and just about toyed with the Flash. Etrigan's C100 with other powers. The New Sun is supposed to be a more versatile Turtle. And Blue Beetle's on par with a GL(?).Turtle, maybe, just because he's basically anti-Flash. MEaning he can not only stop things, but suddenly reintroduce their speed, turning **** into projectiles. Etrigan... yeah, if Super Skrull is a low end Uber, Etrigan should be, as well. Hellfire, greater than Thing (IMO) strength, magical claws, pretty good durability.

New Sun I argued should be Uber, since the only way he's been put down is by overloading him with a source of kinetic energy equal to his own. X pointed out that he wasn't that versatile, and that just because overloading was the only thing that worked on paper didn't mean he couldn't be taken out other ways. I was skeptical, but let it go at that. Still, yeah, on raw power he's equal to other Ubers in this, easily.

[Dark Gog]

What issues did B417 appear in anyway? I think I'd like to read them.

[X]

Eternal's regeneration is a bit overrated. As of right now they need technology and a lot of time to come back from being atomized. That's from their most recent mini.

They look great on paper, but almost all of their powers are lower end than you'd imagine, because Eternal's don't or can't concentrate on all facets of their powers at one time.

That's why Makkari was the fastest. Ikaris perhaps the most rounded. Thena's very well rounded as well, while Sersi truly has excelled in the form of transmutation.

There is a massive, massive gulf between top tiers and most Eternal's. There always has been.

When Ikaris and co lost against a Hulk machine?

When Thor has a huge advantage on Ikaris?

When Black Bolt humiliated Ikaris?

Sersi is the only legitmate Eternal uber and I think it's just another case of the characters looking impressive on paper but not translating all that to comics or formidability.

[X]

X pointed out that he wasn't that versatile, and that just because overloading was the only thing that worked on paper didn't mean he couldn't be taken out other ways. I was skeptical, but let it go at that. Still, yeah, on raw power he's equal to other Ubers in this, easily.

Yeah, I was arguing for him being too uber too bud.

Thanks for skewing my viewpoint and everything. I was the very first one that PM'ed Wieg and got that discussion going.

[X]

Finally got around to getting the scans I really wanted to show.

I know Superman One Million has more or less already been ruled too uber and that's the consenus on him, but here they are anyway.

This is his most recent appearance from a few months ago. This isn't a weakened Superman One Million (I can leap from world to world!) nor is it written by a different writer. This is Grant Morrison, the writer of DC One Million.

I figured it'd be relevant. People saw other feats, ones that were nods to insane Pre-Crisis DC times, and judged him off that. Rightfully so. But this is really his only fight scene, and I think it goes a long way in showing how powerful he is, more so than cartoony feats.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=10.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=11.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=13.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=14.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v39/bmovie_buff/Superman%20One%20Million/?action=view&current=16.jpg

This isn't the All Star Superman that we saw at the beginning of his title, dying from too much solar energy. This is the earlier, weaker All Star Superman. More or less, this is Superman One Million vs. modern day Superman. And like I said days ago, Superman One Million is comfortably above him, but not leagues more than say Superman with a Green Lantern ring is beyond normal Superman.

Superman affects him with his heat vision, they have a short physical tussle, Krypto affects him, all that. Superman One Million has a clear advantage through and through, but let me ask you this...

Does he have a bigger advantage than Thanos does over a Herald?

Posting these again because all of one person saw them previously.

[Dark Gog]

All-Star Superman isn't even in continuity, so why should we assume it is for S1M?

[X]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again because I feel it could contribute more than a little to this...

When we vote I intend to, in every thread all season, tell why I voted for the person I did. A short summary that'll take me another 30 seconds to type up, but that'll let it be known that I read every single persons write-up and made my decision with no bias.

One of the reasons I've fallen out of this thing before is that I feel like I'm more or less writing for myself and no one but. The material isn't good, my fine points are missed... The time I put into brainstorming and actually churning everything out is delegated to a simple sentence every week. "I vote for X's team, The End".

I want to avoid that, and I'm going to give every single person in this input to some degree when I vote. What strategies were the best. What fell flat. What really worked and what needs some work on.

I don't know. I think it'll add a lot to this. Be a bit more personal.

Thoughts?

[X]

All-Star Superman isn't even in continuity, so why should we assume it is for S1M?

You really think Grant Morrison wasn't using the original characters he created years ago, some of his very most favorite ones?

This wasn't some no name writer dredging up the DC One Million cast for the sake of it.

That's really pretty daft of you, Gog.

[Dark Gog]

Eternal's regeneration is a bit overrated. As of right now they need technology and a lot of time to come back from being atomized. That's from their most recent mini.

Being atomized's always been lethal for Eternals. I'd be interested in the classic versions anyway, which doesn't seem like it should be a problem, judging by the Scarlet Witch's inclusion. I'm not sure they've ever been outright impossible to knock-out, though, and no competitor should really lack for means of disposing them here regardless.

Makkari's actively redirected his powers towards his speed, I think, and Gil's were all pretty basic, save strength, but a few like Sersi and maybe Thena do get pretty powerful all across. Which is strange in Sersi's case, since as far as I know she was never really supposed to be all that formidable to begin with.

[Dark Gog]

You really think Grant Morrison wasn't using the original characters he created years ago, some of his very most favorite ones?

This wasn't some no name writer dredging up the DC One Million cast for the sake of it.

That's really pretty daft of you, Gog.

It's downright retarded on your part, X, but thanks all the same.

And yes, I think it is entirely possible Morrison wasn't feeling as constrained by past continuity as he otherwise would be writing -- get this -- in continuity. The same as when he incorporated OOC ideas such as the Worlogog into the DCU, and for largely the same reasons as why he enjoys writing All-Star Superman in the first place.

Now, do tell me, how does AS-SM meeting the Supes 1-Million from normal Superman's future make sense in the context of that story?

[X]

How does it make sense? Well, Gog, like we sit down and get my thinking cap because this is going to be a hard one.

Ever hear of a multiverse? It's a pretty common idea in comics.

I wouldn't exactly be jumping through hoops if I imagined that, considering the technology of the 853rd centry, they could and do monitor other Superman's. Part of the reason that they have a Superman Squad in the first place. And hold on, because the big points coming up soon.

But please, if you're aware of some alternate realities Superman Prime and Superman One Million... Please tell me. We haven't seen either one in any divergent realities, but we have seen All Star Superman interacting with the 853rd century through the technology in his Fortress.

It doesn't have to be All Star Superman's future, making them not the original DC One Million characters. Very likely that All Star Superman's interacting with another timeline. This is a nod to the Silver Age, Gog.

I don't see Morrison going, "Ah, I created these characters nearly a decade ago. Time to dust them off and... no... actually, I'll use carbon copies!".

About as likely as Starlin wanting to write about Thanos clones.

[X]

Being atomized's always been lethal for Eternals. I'd be interested in the classic versions anyway, which doesn't seem like it should be a problem, judging by the Scarlet Witch's inclusion. I'm not sure they've ever been outright impossible to knock-out, though, and no competitor should really lack for means of disposing them here regardless.

Makkari's actively redirected his powers towards his speed, I think, and Gil's were all pretty basic, save strength, but a few like Sersi and maybe Thena do get pretty powerful all across. Which is strange in Sersi's case, since as far as I know she was never really supposed to be all that formidable to begin with.

No, Sersi's pulled herself together from being atomized before.

Have you ever seen Thena potrayed as more powerful than Ikaris, except when she had the Prime Eternal bit going on? Because I haven't.

Gilgamesh and Sersi are obvious ubers. Makkari (Pre-Ultimate Speed), Thena, and Ikaris among others are pretty obvious middleweights.

[X]

Also, in regards to Thanos potentially being too uber...

Look at it this way.

We don't use neutered top tiers, such as Green Lantern's, Surfer and Heralds...

We use their better potrayals. Their high ones. Competent ones.

The gap between them and Thanos isn't closed completely, and that's why Thanos is one of the premiere ubers in this thing.

BUT, our Silver Surfer is capable of destroying multiple planets when he fights, like he did when he fought Morg.

Are Gladiator can swim through stars and destroy planets and crush stars.

Betta Ray Bill and Stardust both smash multiple planets and swim in stars.

Things like that.

[Who?]

I honestly see no reason that most of the Eternals should be ubers. Outside of PE's, Phastos, Thanos, and OverMind of course.

They are really pretty worthless at being ubers.

Just to point out Ikaris has beat Sersi before and has looked superior to Thena at least once. Which says something when you think about most of Ikaris's performances against top tiers...

[TheCorpulent1]

The Eternals are some of the most inconsistent characters in comics, based on my experiences with them. Sersi herself has been portrayed all across the spectrum, from ungodly powerful to downright pathetic.

[X]

Yeah, most of which I just mentioned. Seems we've got similar opinions on him.

Honestly, some halfassed Hulk bot' had Ikaris in huge trouble.

Ultimate Speed Makkari should be uber, but he's not really a typical Eternal. More like Zoom.

[X]

The Eternals are some of the most inconsistent characters in comics, based on my experiences with them. Sersi herself has been portrayed all across the spectrum, from ungodly powerful to downright pathetic.

She is consistently one of the more powerful Eternals, though. Which is what's being discussed.

All top tiers vary as much as she does.

[Who?]

A couple of Sersi's best feats come from when she was evil(or whatever you like to call it). Not exactly her normal state.

Sersi really has come off looking less then top tier more often then a lot of top tiers.

[X]

A couple of Sersi's best feats come from when she was evil(or whatever you like to call it). Not exactly her normal state.

Sersi really has come off looking less then top tier more often then a lot of top tiers.

Is this before or after she physically knocked out Hercules with one shot?

How about when she protected the Avenger's inside their mansion as the entire universe died, in one of the highest top tier feats ever?

Considering her lack of appearances, she's got plenty of great showings.

[TheCorpulent1]

On paper she's a lot more powerful than a lot of top tiers, though. She can forcefully shapeshift other people into whatever she wants. I've had her transmute layers of particularly tough ubers' skin into acid when I had her. If you use her intelligently, she's an incredible powerhouse. If you use her the way she's almost always used in the comics, though, she'll turn her opponents into bunnies or raise golems out of mud to fight for her or something like that.

[Who?]

Is this before or after she physically knocked out Hercules with one shot?


A couple of Sersi's best feats come from when she was evil(or whatever you like to call it). Not exactly her normal state.

:whatever:

[X]

And her protecting a group of characters from an entire dying universe in a bubble was during her time as a "good" character.

Thank you for editing out half my post, though. Truly, my entire point was conveyed.

[Who?]

And her protecting a group of characters from an entire dying universe in a bubble was during her time as a "good" character.

Thank you for editing out half my post, though. Truly, my entire point was conveyed.


You lazy dick no good mother****er. Ray who has been listed as a reg has absorbed part of a universe. Sue has truely uber bubbles but her as malice is listed as a mid.

[X]

Sue has truely uber bubbles but her as malice is listed as a mid.

What? Come again?

[X]

And I'd love to see Sue's bubbles stand up to a universe dying. Lolololol.

[Who?]

What? Come again?

Can you be a little clearer?

[X]

Can you be

WHAT.

[Who?]

And I'd love to see Sue's bubbles stand up to a universe dying. Lolololol.

We have seen her take some pretty serious attacks on top of stabbing Galactus and killing a Celestial(although their was a reason given for this one).

[Who?]

WHAT.


What? :huh:

[Kaboom]

WHAT.

What? :huh:

what?

[X]

***Static***

YOU'RE NOT COMING THROUGH ANYMORE. I CAN'T HEAR YOU. SPEAK UP.

[Who?]

abshioheohewhweoidsh

What?

[X]

What?

At least I'm speaking broken English. I couldn't even hear you, chump. :oldrazz:

Nice PM reply, as well. ;)

[Who?]

At least I'm speaking broken English. I couldn't even hear you, chump. :oldrazz:

Nice PM reply, as well. ;)

There you happy? :yay:

[X]

I'mma have to settle for it, I guess. :(

[Nightwing.]

Who? have you posted a line up for this week yet?when you do could you provide a few links to go with it cheers.

[X]

Yeah Who, ****ing get going. :cmad:

[Khellendros]

*****, when's the deadline for posting next week's lineup? I've got some changes to the team I'm considering, but would REALLY like to talk them over with my partner first.

[X]

We've got days on end until next weeks deadline. It hasn't even offically started yet. No worries.

[X]

Hey Who, Khell... Question.

Would you consider Supernova way beyond current Nova, all things considered?

I do.

[LadyVader]

First week - Wieg
Second week - Leag/Corp

Oh come on! :(

[X]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again because I feel it could contribute more than a little to this...

When we vote I intend to, in every thread all season, tell why I voted for the person I did. A short summary that'll take me another 30 seconds to type up, but that'll let it be known that I read every single persons write-up and made my decision with no bias.

One of the reasons I've fallen out of this thing before is that I feel like I'm more or less writing for myself and no one but. The material isn't good, my fine points are missed... The time I put into brainstorming and actually churning everything out is delegated to a simple sentence every week. "I vote for X's team, The End".

I want to avoid that, and I'm going to give every single person in this input to some degree when I vote. What strategies were the best. What fell flat. What really worked and what needs some work on.

I don't know. I think it'll add a lot to this. Be a bit more personal.

Thoughts?

And again...

[Nightwing.]

First week - Wieg
Second week - Leag/Corp

Oh come on! :(

Third Week - Nightwing

So you have a guaranteed victory right there.

[Who?]

Who? have you posted a line up for this week yet?when you do could you provide a few links to go with it cheers.


Yes I have. I provided a little info in the transactions page.

[Nightwing.]

Sorry i meant for week2.For our battle.

[LadyVader]

Oh Nightwing. Don't sell yourself short. I may, and I stress MAY have a better chance against you then against Leag and Corp but I still think I'm the weakest in the league when it comes to strategy and tactics.

[Nightwing.]

Ill be honest im gonna enjoy facing you....and after reading your preptime youve inspired me to do the story side of things again.....im looking forward to seeing how you handle deadpool against my team.ive pretty much already thought of a team im gonna use but it depends on if i get any different pick ups in the meantime.

Oh and you aint as weak as moi...my comic knowledge is very VERY limited....i blag my way through most of it lol

[TheCorpulent1]

First week - Wieg
Second week - Leag/Corp

Oh come on! :(
I'll go easy on you. ;)

[LadyVader]

Hey, I'm nobody's charity case. If I suck then I suck and that's the way it's gonna be.

Wait... let me rephrase that... :)

If I am a less then average player :D that doesn't mean I deserve an oponent of a similar level and I demand that you do not go easy, and in fact go very very hard.

Shoot... gotta rephrase again.

[Harlekin]

Hey Who, Khell... Question.

Would you consider Supernova way beyond current Nova, all things considered?

I do.
Oh you sly dog.

I say Nova>SuperNova because A) more power (although he still has to show it), B) Worldmind.

[X]

That's the thing though, you only get so much credit for speculative power.

[Harlekin]

True, but the Worldmind is an asset that nicely fills that gap.

[X]

Eh, I don't know.

I think I'd take the raw power, considering how much of it he had. Guy was Thanos level.

[Kaboom]

Oh you sly dog.

I say Nova>SuperNova because A) more power (although he still has to show it), B) Worldmind.

nova prime can deputize his entire team into the nova corps

[Harlekin]

So can Nova.

And Nova has the raw power, even more of it, on paper. He hasn't shown all of it yet, true, but he's been pulling off a few nice feats here and there. The Worldmind's capabilities though are quite valuable. Can hack into just about any tech, more info than anyone in the game and the ability to analyze and detect just about anything.

[TheCorpulent1]

Current Nova seems no higher than herald-level to me. Probably right about even with the Silver Surfer's average based on what he's shown so far.
Hey, I'm nobody's charity case. If I suck then I suck and that's the way it's gonna be.

Wait... let me rephrase that... :)

If I am a less then average player :D that doesn't mean I deserve an oponent of a similar level and I demand that you do not go easy, and in fact go very very hard.

Shoot... gotta rephrase again.
It's okay, I wasn't really gonna go easy on you anyway. :oldrazz:

[X]

Meh, current Nova struggled against the A-Wave and Annihilus like SuperNova sure as hell wouldn't have.

[TheCorpulent1]

So did the heralds. The Annihilation Wave's numbers seemed to be enough to overwhelm pretty much anything short of Galactus himself, though.

[X]

So did the heralds. The Annihilation Wave's numbers seemed to be enough to overwhelm pretty much anything short of Galactus himself, though.

Heralds held all large chunks of the A-Wave quite well.

It was the seekers that got some of them.

[Harlekin]

Nova was also inexperienced in the Nova Force's full power. He's learning.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, he'll probably keep climbing in power as he learns. But right now, I think he's right about level with higher-tier heralds like the newly empowered Surfer.
Heralds held all large chunks of the A-Wave quite well.

It was the seekers that got some of them.
Nova held off large chunks of the Annihilation Wave pretty well himself, but one person can only do so much against a literal universe's worth of opponents. Struggling against Annihilus isn't anything for Nova to be ashamed of, either. He killed Quasar with ease and was even more powerful than the Seekers were.

[X]

Nova was also inexperienced in the Nova Force's full power. He's learning.

That's another strike against him, though.

He hasn't shown the full extent of his power (Nor do we even know if he's at those purported levels) and secondly, he sucks at using him.

So in effect it's mostly speculative.

I'd still take Supernova, anyway. Guy was a ****ing beast.

[X]

Nova held off large chunks of the Annihilation Wave pretty well himself, but one person can only do so much against a literal universe's worth of opponents. Struggling against Annihilus isn't anything for Nova to be ashamed of, either. He killed Quasar with ease and was even more powerful than the Seekers were.

Quasar's death there had universal cries of "bull****!" springing up online. And it really was.

Wasn't a literal entire universe of bugs and what not, either.

[TheCorpulent1]

Didn't Annihilus pretty much empty out the Negative Zone of its inhabitants to serve as his army?

I didn't mind Quasar's death too much. Annihilus obviously had some kind of power boost going on because he really shouldn't have been able to do a lot of stuff he did in Annihilation at his traditional levels.

[Khellendros]

Didn't Annihilus pretty much empty out the Negative Zone of its inhabitants to serve as his army?
...No? The whole Super Skrull mini was about him going to the negative Zone and gathering a fighting force to take on Annihilus. And then there were all those scientists and guards manning that prison.

[Harlekin]

That's another strike against him, though.
Meh. He's got the Worldmind to guide him.

He hasn't shown the full extent of his power (Nor do we even know if he's at those purported levels) and secondly, he sucks at using him.
We know he's got the full power of the Nova Force, which SuperNova had minus Richard Rider's. He can't be anything but be more powerful than SuperNova. He also doesn't suck at using them. He's been kicking butt all over the place.

I'd still take Supernova, anyway. Guy was a ****ing beast.
Then why don't you take him?

[TheCorpulent1]

Supernova's gotta be well beyond herald level. If the Silver Surfer is the new standard for the top of the uber rank, Supernova should probably be illegal.
...No? The whole Super Skrull mini was about him going to the negative Zone and gathering a fighting force to take on Annihilus. And then there were all those scientists and guards manning that prison.
Okay, there were stragglers, but the vast majority of the Negative Zone's inhabitants were brought out to fight in the Wave. The whole Annihilation event itself was built on Annihilus' army having such vast numerical superiority that they were like an unstoppable force.

[wiegeabo]

All-Star Superman isn't even in continuity, so why should we assume it is for S1M?

The problem is that What-If's, Elseworld's, and other out-of-continuities are allowed. One of the reasons I've always argued for keeping them out is because there never seems to be enough information on them. Whereas there tons (usually) of info and issues about characters from main continuity. It would also eliminate a lot of confusion.

If I had my way (and since I'm commish I could, but it would screw everyone over this late in the game), I'd limit the League to 616 and Earth-1/post-crisis Earth continuities. And also allow characters who appeared in those continuities a significant number of times (like New Sun, for example). There'd still be hundreds of characters to choose from, less confusion (hopefully), and it might force more variety.

[TheCorpulent1]

That'd be fine by me. I don't even have any alternate universe characters.

[Khellendros]

Okay, there were stragglers, but the vast majority of the Negative Zone's inhabitants were brought out to fight in the Wave. I don't think they were, no. It's just that their cannon fodder was generally better than Kree and Skrull cannon fodder.

[X]

The problem is that What-If's, Elseworld's, and other out-of-continuities are allowed. One of the reasons I've always argued for keeping them out is because there never seems to be enough information on them. Whereas there tons (usually) of info and issues about characters from main continuity. It would also eliminate a lot of confusion.

If I had my way (and since I'm commish I could, but it would screw everyone over this late in the game), I'd limit the League to 616 and Earth-1/post-crisis Earth continuities. And also allow characters who appeared in those continuities a significant number of times (like New Sun, for example). There'd still be hundreds of characters to choose from, less confusion (hopefully), and it might force more variety.

Hundreds, Ooooh!

You'd castrate a massive chunk of the usable characters all because we'd seemingly be too lazy to elaborate the differences between mainstream incarnations of our characters and alternate ones.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think the problem is more that there's not enough printed material on the characters. We can only give our interpretations of many alternate universe characters, and as this thread's hundreds of pages can testify, different people can have drastically different interpretations of the same character based on the same few appearances.

But wieg clearly isn't going to cut alternate universe characters out, so it's not an issue.
I don't think they were, no. It's just that their cannon fodder was generally better than Kree and Skrull cannon fodder.
I'd have to check the issues again, but I don't think that was the case. I'm pretty sure the real threat of the Wave was their numbers; they'd overrun an entire planet before the planet's inhabitants even knew what hit them. Even now, after the war is over, the Skrull race is almost extinct and the Kree are drastically reduced in both population and territory, yet there are plenty of Wave dudes still hanging around causing trouble, as Nova's hopeless attempt to police the universe early in his current series indicates.

[X]

Supernova's gotta be well beyond herald level. If the Silver Surfer is the new standard for the top of the uber rank, Supernova should probably be illegal.

And that's been the new official rule since when?

Thanos was still allowed last time I checked. We were only talking about a wide scale lowering of the bar.

[TheCorpulent1]

Hence the "if."

[X]

I'd have to check the issues again, but I don't think that was the case. I'm pretty sure the real threat of the Wave was their numbers; they'd overrun an entire planet before the planet's inhabitants even knew what hit them. Even now, after the war is over, the Skrull race is almost extinct and the Kree are drastically reduced in both population and territory, yet there are plenty of Wave dudes still hanging around causing trouble, as Nova's hopeless attempt to police the universe early in his current series indicates.

It's not being debated that they had a massive force, it's being debated that they had everyone in another universe fighting for them.

[X]

Hence the "if."

Hurm?

[Kaboom]

when can we start voting?

[X]

Yeah, I'm curious on that one too.

[TheCorpulent1]

Hurm?
Supernova's gotta be well beyond herald level. If the Silver Surfer is the new standard for the top of the uber rank, Supernova should probably be illegal.
I said "if." I know the uber bar hasn't been moved, but if the Surfer does become the top uber instead of Thanos, Supernova would be illegal. He's probably already pushing it with Thanos as the top uber.

[X]

Thanos isn't the singular top of the bar, though.

There are other characters as powerful as him in the league.

[Kaboom]

oh and i was just reading about Batman. Clearly hes a reg.

but if we go by fanboy logic, Batman with prep time could be there to survive the death of a universe and then recreate a new one in his image.

since our battles include prpe time, Batman should be tuber.

just my .02

:)

[Khellendros]

I'd have to check the issues again, but I don't think that was the case. I'm pretty sure the real threat of the Wave was their numbers; they'd overrun an entire planet before the planet's inhabitants even knew what hit them. Even now, after the war is over, the Skrull race is almost extinct and the Kree are drastically reduced in both population and territory, yet there are plenty of Wave dudes still hanging around causing trouble, as Nova's hopeless attempt to police the universe early in his current series indicates. Just because they had enough forces to overwhelm a planet doesn't mean they borderline emptied out the universe. Also, check the prologue, where the Novas couldn't do **** to the ground troop bugs until Richard started getting them to shoot each other. And the Skrulls on that one world even had the advantage of surprise, and still got raped. The bug were cannon fodder, no doubt, just a bit better than what their enemies had.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's not being debated that they had a massive force, it's being debated that they had everyone in another universe fighting for them.
That was careless wording on my part. Yes, there were Negative Zoners left out of the Wave who stayed in the Negative Zone. What I inferred from what was presented in Annihilation is that Annihilus took the vast majority of the Negative Zone's inhabitants, put them in his army, and attacked the entire positive matter universe with numbers as his primary advantage.

[X]

Super Skrull ****ed em' up!

[Nightwing.]

The problem is that What-If's, Elseworld's, and other out-of-continuities are allowed. One of the reasons I've always argued for keeping them out is because there never seems to be enough information on them. Whereas there tons (usually) of info and issues about characters from main continuity. It would also eliminate a lot of confusion.

If I had my way (and since I'm commish I could, but it would screw everyone over this late in the game), I'd limit the League to 616 and Earth-1/post-crisis Earth continuities. And also allow characters who appeared in those continuities a significant number of times (like New Sun, for example). There'd still be hundreds of characters to choose from, less confusion (hopefully), and it might force more variety.

We're only in the first week.I think you should enforce it.Theres nothing more annoying than having a lack of info on a character.

[TheCorpulent1]

Super Skrull ****ed em' up!
Well, Kl'rt's badass. He seemed even more badass than usual in Annihilation, too. :up:

[wiegeabo]

We're only in the first week.I think you should enforce it.Theres nothing more annoying than having a lack of info on a character.

Well, we do have a full issue minimum appearance rule for characters. I'd be willing to bump that up to 3 issues (which Harl suggested). It wouldn't be as drastic as eliminating universes, but it would seriously bump up the quality of information we have. (It would also likely get rid of a number of What-If's and Elseworlds since they are usually one-shots.)

[The Leaguer]

Can someone (Who?) explain to me what the difference between Dr. Strange and Dr. Strange Gaea Aura? All I could find out is that Strange was cut off from the Vishanti and got himself the hook up with this Aura nonsense. Can he do all the same things as with Vishanti?

[X]

Well, we do have a full issue minimum appearance rule for characters. I'd be willing to bump that up to 3 issues (which Harl suggested). It wouldn't be as drastic as eliminating universes, but it would seriously bump up the quality of information we have. (It would also likely get rid of a number of What-If's and Elseworlds since they are usually one-shots.)

We've managed for years doing what we currently are, but we're considering cutting hundreds, maybe thousands of characters out of this thing because they're a little vague?

It's never been that drastic a problem. If a character, a singular character, is too vague, he's called on it. Like GL Validus.

No need to institute a universal rule for it.

[X]

Can someone (Who?) explain to me what the difference between Dr. Strange and Dr. Strange Gaea Aura? All I could find out is that Strange was cut off from the Vishanti and got himself the hook up with this Aura nonsense. Can he do all the same things as with Vishanti?

More powerful Dr. Strange who can control the elements.

[Khellendros]

Well, we do have a full issue minimum appearance rule for characters. I'd be willing to bump that up to 3 issues (which Harl suggested). It wouldn't be as drastic as eliminating universes, but it would seriously bump up the quality of information we have. (It would also likely get rid of a number of What-If's and Elseworlds since they are usually one-shots.)
HELL no, **** that and **** Harl, the cranky douche.

[X]

Yeah, that'd limit things to no end.

There's a lot of contention for certain characters already. We don't need that ****.

[Dark Gog]

What issues did B417 appear in anyway? I think I'd like to read them.


Khell?

[X]

Legionnaires One Million, Legion One Million.

[Harlekin]

When did I suggest that? Not that I mind to have thought it up, but I can't recall.

[X]

No idea. But we're going to level the blame at you regardless. :)

[Dark Gog]

Legionnaires One Million, Legion One Million.

Thanks.

[Harlekin]

Fine by me.

[Who?]

Can someone (Who?) explain to me what the difference between Dr. Strange and Dr. Strange Gaea Aura? All I could find out is that Strange was cut off from the Vishanti and got himself the hook up with this Aura nonsense. Can he do all the same things as with Vishanti?


More powerful Dr. Strange who can control the elements.

Pretty much. He created a new form of magic and was using power from the earth. He could do most of everything he normally could.

[X]

Who, did you see what I said earlier about voting?

[X]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again because I feel it could contribute more than a little to this...

When we vote I intend to, in every thread all season, tell why I voted for the person I did. A short summary that'll take me another 30 seconds to type up, but that'll let it be known that I read every single persons write-up and made my decision with no bias.

One of the reasons I've fallen out of this thing before is that I feel like I'm more or less writing for myself and no one but. The material isn't good, my fine points are missed... The time I put into brainstorming and actually churning everything out is delegated to a simple sentence every week. "I vote for X's team, The End".

I want to avoid that, and I'm going to give every single person in this input to some degree when I vote. What strategies were the best. What fell flat. What really worked and what needs some work on.

I don't know. I think it'll add a lot to this. Be a bit more personal.

Thoughts?

One more time... Guess... I dunno. It's important to me.

[Khellendros]

Khell?
Urk, sorry, my head's not on straight today. Yeah, X is right. I keep thinking he had another appearance, but I can't remember/find it.

[X]

Superboy One Million, maybe?

[Khellendros]

One more time... Guess... I dunno. It's important to me.I agree that we should explain WHY we're voting, not just saying "X wins" or "Harl loses", because that is gay, children, and Baby Jesus frowns on the gay.

[Harlekin]

One more time... Guess... I dunno. It's important to me.
What do you want us to say? I plan on doing so, but I can't guarantuee it every week.

[X]

I don't know, I'm curious what people think about on input towards our write-ups.

I'm sure as hell going to stick around longer if I know that everyone that votes is A)Reading my write-ups and B)That they're enjoyable.

I don't know. That's me.

[Khellendros]

With all these people threatening to leave, I have to say... I get first dibs on their teams, b* tches.