Dream Team League (Discussion)

[Kaboom]

PM answered. And I think I fixed Kaboom's lineup (I hope). He'll still be able to use Etrigan at Middleweight levels, which is what Kaboom was probably planning on doing anyway.


And I hope your ok with the rank change, Kaboom. It's going to happen to all of us during the season. I had to sacrifice my own character by bumping New Son to uber.
i mean if hes an uber hes an uber, but to classify him as a med, and then have him upgraded just bc someone complains...it doesnt seem right.

and people shouldnt change ranks during the season. just bc peoples opinions of them change.

[TheCorpulent1]

If there's compelling enough evidence to suggest that a character's the wrong rank, I'd prefer to see their rank change, even if we're in the middle of a season.

[wiegeabo]

i mean if hes an uber hes an uber, but to classify him as a med, and then have him upgraded just bc someone complains...it doesnt seem right.

and people shouldnt change ranks during the season. just bc peoples opinions of them change.


Ranks don't change just on complaints. There needs to be evidence that the rank is wrong. And the ranks only change when they are wrong.

Now, I do agree that ranks shouldn't change in the middle of a match. Since you got Etrigan as a mid in your lineup, he'll stay that way for your match. But after this week's matches he'll take on his uber rank.

Honestly, after four season, ranks for previously used characters don't change that often. It's really the rarely, or never, used characters that face this. Etrigan happened to be one of those.

[Khellendros]

Wieg changed him based on feats brought up, not just because he got *****ed at.

[Harlekin]

Yeah, that is the most logical course of action. When a character is deemed to be in a different weight class (be it reg, med, uber or tuber), it should go into effect at the earliest possibility. As long as someone isn't able to counter arguments that someone should be upgraded or downgraded, it only makes sense to down/upgrade that character.

[TheCorpulent1]

I assume the same rule applies for Clea on LV's roster, since she was downgraded to a middleweight? So I basically have to treat her as a standard uber mage for this week's match?

[wiegeabo]

I assume the same rule applies for Clea on LV's roster, since she was downgraded to a middleweight? So I basically have to treat her as a standard uber mage for this week's match?

Yeah, it'll help her survive the pulsing gushes of arterial spray you've got planned.

[X]

- Mages altering time to amp themselves up to Flash or Zoom level speed. First, I have yet to see an instance of a mage giving himself that kind of speed. But even if those examples exist, it doesn't matter -- a mage or GL type character with Zoom-level speed would be blatantly tuber. One of the only decent limits these guys have is that they still have to work at the speed of human thought. (I kind of think Supes-GL or GL Daxamite should be tuber -- but even they don't have Zoom-level speed.)

Yeah, that's garbage.

We should go by what's shown in comics, not our whimsical leaps in logic assumptions.

[X]

Yeah, it'll help her survive the pulsing gushes of arterial spray you've got planned.

Come on now... Does what Corp does really compare to the level of brutality I put my opponents through?

[Harlekin]

To answer Khell's question: Etrigan is middleweight in everything. Imagine him just being downgraded a little for this match. He's not going to be punching out Wonder Woman, but he'll definitely be a top-level medium for this match.

[The Leaguer]

My apologies to those I didn't vote for this week. I didn't get a chance to read everyone's write-ups.

[XFanTim]

I thought Gems were illegal.
They've never been before. I had Adam Warlock with the Soul Gem for a whole season.

Nor should they be illegal. None of the Infinity Watch members are too uber with their one gem apiece. Hell, Pip and Gamora are regs, in part since they don't have much control over their gems. (Pip can only use his for teleportation, and has to be touching people to port them. Gamora has involuntary visions of the future occasionally, and that's it.) In general, the strength of the gems depends on the user. Thanos with the power gem alone would be tuber -- as demonstrated in infinity gauntlet -- Drax with the power gem is certainly not.

Obviously using the entire infinity gauntlet would be another story completely.

[wiegeabo]

In that case, I'll make the change.

[X]

They've never been before. I had Adam Warlock with the Soul Gem for a whole season.

Nor should they be illegal. None of the Infinity Watch members are too uber with their one gem apiece. Hell, Pip and Gamora are regs, in part since they don't have much control over their gems. (Pip can only use his for teleportation, and has to be touching people to port them. Gamora has involuntary visions of the future occasionally, and that's it.) In general, the strength of the gems depends on the user. Thanos with the power gem alone would be tuber -- as demonstrated in infinity gauntlet -- Drax with the power gem is certainly not.

Obviously using the entire infinity gauntlet would be another story completely.

Well said.

[Khellendros]

Well. Posted my first ever writeup, in three parts to make it a bit easier to read. It's a bit long, sorry.

[Dark Gog]

He was half way between dimensions while his exploded, I believe. Takes some of the sting out of it, I'm sure.

Anyone could of killed Jasper's in the reality he died in. He was powerless.

Is there any particular reason you picked the points I was disagreeing with to take apart? It was my impression you wanted to promote actual discussion.

For the record, I don't recall that there was any reason to suppose that it was only part-way within its own dimension, if that's what you're saying. It was either there or it wasn't. I personally believe it was gone by that time. At one point late in the story we actually get a look at its perspective, and there the narration's worded in a way that suggests it'd travelled from its own world to the Marvel one, which in-turn implies the first was still there at the time.

Then again, it did know its Jaspers was dead, now that I think about it.

At any rate, once it's reached Earth 616, it was clearly far from invulnerable, with the wording again giving the impression that it'd only ever gotten more powerful over that time. (Due to studying the mansion's computers.)

[wiegeabo]

Is Fantomex's Union the one from the Wildstorm universe?

[Dark Gog]

I have until monday right? I'll have a strategy up by tomorrow. Just so we're clear, what exactly does it mean to have debate open to others monday?

In the meantime, Ares doesn't have many powers that are explicitly defined, but one I had forgotten of entirely until looking through some issues today, is that he took Hades' staff, capable of 'devouring the very stuff of life itself'. You can look-up Wonder Woman #217 for it, and read through #214-218 for a bit more about him if you have the chance.

Wiki-link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_%28comics%29#Powers_and_abilities) Are you familiar with Nova's capabilities before his upgrade? Imagine those augmented severely. His power should be greater than this guy (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/novasaal.htm). Also, a limited, but nice feat thread (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t400279.html). As you can see there, outside of the atmosphere, he can be faster than light. He's a little more limited inside of an atmosphere, but still very very quick if he wants to get away. As for his Gravimetric-Pulse, it destroys Kree Sentries (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sentry459.htm) without exerting too much power.

I really can't say I'm more than very vaguely familiar with any version of Richard Rider. I suppose I'll just have to make do.

Basically. He was able to copy a Star-eater. That naturally revs him up a bit so that's not really accessible power during the match-up, but yes, he has a connection to the entire universe, not just Earth. I'm pretty sure Vixen should have that too, but y'know, as far as I recall, Vixen hasn't even left Earth once, and she's generally more limited, because she needs the Tantu Totem to focus.

Wasn't she on the Suicide Squad team that travelled to Apokalips, at the very least? As well as the Watchtower and any JLA missions, naturally.

Yes, he wears Fate's helmet, but he's got Nabu locked up in some kind of prison inside the helmet. No sudden grabs for dominance there. As for Chaos Magic, what do you mean exactly? I don't recall there being any specific "Chaos Magic" in the DCU.

Were they still in communication with one another?

Perhaps the term is inappropriate, but I was given to believe that as an agent of Balance, Hector Hall could draw on both the power of the Lords of Order and of Chaos. (Perhaps through the Amulet of Anubis.)

[Dark Gog]

BTW, I asked for a rank to be given to Mirror Master.

[wiegeabo]

BTW, I asked for a rank to be given to Mirror Master.

Off the top of my head I'd say a regular. He's just an ordinary person physically, with a mirror gun and his other mirror abilites.

[Harlekin]

In the meantime, Ares doesn't have many powers that are explicitly defined, but one I had forgotten of entirely until looking through some issues today, is that he took Hades' staff, capable of 'devouring the very stuff of life itself'. You can look-up Wonder Woman #217 for it, and read through #214-218 for a bit more about him if you have the chance.
Well, my write-up's already posted, so yeah...

I really can't say I'm more than very vaguely familiar with any version of Richard Rider. I suppose I'll just have to make do.
I can't really explain it more than that. His wiki-page along with the feats thread and the bio of SuperNova should be enough. It's more than what most people have to make due with.

Wasn't she on the Suicide Squad team that travelled to Apokalips, at the very least? As well as the Watchtower and any JLA missions, naturally.
Yep, she was on that mission, but didn't copy any animals from Apokalips. And she was, up until her recent reintroduction, only a member of JLA Detroit, which was pretty earth-based. She was certainly never with the Watchtower team from what I recall.

Were they still in communication with one another?
Nabu and Hector Hall? No.

Perhaps the term is inappropriate, but I was given to believe that as an agent of Balance, Hector Hall could draw on both the power of the Lords of Order and of Chaos. (Perhaps through the Amulet of Anubis.)
I'm pretty sure he can, but it doesn't really make much of a difference in the application of his magics, I believe.

And yes, Mirror Master has always been a reg.

[Dark Gog]

Well, my write-up's already posted, so yeah...

I'd have no objections if you were to change it to accomodate this. I won't be reading it until I've postd anyway.

I can't really explain it more than that. His wiki-page along with the feats thread and the bio of SuperNova should be enough. It's more than what most people have to make due with.I'm not complaining.

Yep, she was on that mission, but didn't copy any animals from Apokalips. And she was, up until her recent reintroduction, only a member of JLA Detroit, which was pretty earth-based. She was certainly never with the Watchtower team from what I recall.She's been showing-up in classified as her regular old self though, I think.

[Harlekin]

I'll keep the write-up as it is. I don't really know what the staff does besides that little "devour the very stuff of life" description. I'll counter it if it should come up in debating.

And yes, she did appear in JLA: Classified for a while, but I'm pretty sure that was a story about JLA Detroit. The point was that she's pretty earth-based. Animal Man has that slight edge over her.

[wiegeabo]

Is Fantomex's Union the one from the Wildstorm universe?

I'm assuming this is right. Am I wrong?

[AnnoyingSilence]

wheres the week 2 sets?

[Harlekin]

Uhm, right here in the forum.

[Khellendros]

I'm assuming this is right. Am I wrong?I don't know of any other Unions...

[wiegeabo]

I don't know of any other Unions...

I couldn't find any others either, but better to be sure before getting too far into my writeup.

[wiegeabo]

I've updated the standings in the Update thread.

Average score is the number of votes you got out of the total votes for your matches.

[Harlekin]

I take it Tim got 5 out of 5, not 5 out of 0.

[wiegeabo]

I take it Tim got 5 out of 5, not 5 out of 0.

...shut up you! :cmad:

:O

[Blacklight]

I'm assuming this is right. Am I wrong?
That's what I thought. The only one I found from DC. I don't think that it wasn't him.

[LadyVader]

Are you going to be able to get your writeup in on time?

I'll get the matches up tonight. They'll be due by Monday morning.

I'm back now and I see that with a few exceptions, people haven't exactly rushed to post their write-ups. :) I'll get to work on it this evening (which would be your afternoon) and let's hope I finish before tuesday.

[TheCorpulent1]

Awesome, that means I have tomorrow to write my write-up. I've been playing computer games all weekend. :(

[wiegeabo]

Awesome, that means I have tomorrow to write my write-up. I've been playing computer games all weekend. :(

Yeah, I won't close it until I get home from work.

[Nightwing.]

my write up will be either tonight or tomorrow morning...hopefully the threads wont close til tomorrow.

[Khellendros]

...

[Khellendros]

My reply to the the discussion Kaboom has drummed up in the Transactions thread:

The mainstream characters do generally have more material to look at for weaknesses and stuff, though. Still, I usually just assume that the same weaknesses as whatever or whoever the alternate universe character is closest to in the mainstream comics apply to the alternate universe character unless specifically stated or shown to be otherwise. So you basically just write as if you're writing for the mainstream version and factor in whatever differences the alternate version has.Yeah, but God forbid we use common sense. I assumed it was a given that if we're assuming they have the same powers, they'd also have the same failings.

Seriously, at this point I'm getting the impression that you people were letting team owners get away with some of the most asinine **** in past season. "Well, he's a telepath, so he'll just shield my whole team!" Seriously, people? NO ONE called bull**** on that until now?

Also, I propose we put this thing on hold until we can actually get our **** together and settle on rules that won't get changed in the middle of a week. Because the constant threat of having to redo my team every time Tim or Kaboom or anyone else feels like *****ing about mages is really goddamn distracting.

[XFanTim]

As for 4) I'd love to get rid of what-if's and Elseworlds too. I'd might even be willing to allow other universes like Vertigo and Malibu if it meant getting rid of those one-issue characters.
I still say if you're going to ban a character because we don't know enough about their powers, that's fine, but don't assume we don't know what there powers are just because they only appeared in a single issue "What If?"

Xavier-Juggernaut appeared in exactly one issue, and yet we have tons of info about his powers, because they're just Xavier's powers plus Juggernaut's powers. Banning characters like that would serve no real purpose other than to screw over the person who has them. (And I don't think I even have any "What If?" characters, so you can't accuse me of personal bias on this.)

Let me put it simply: Which one-issue/What If?/Elseworlds characters do people have a problem with? That is, which ones do we supposedly not have enough info on?

[XFanTim]

I agree with what Khell said about making common sense assumptions -- e.g., alternate universe characters match their mainstream counterparts except when we're told otherwise.

Also, I propose we put this thing on hold until we can actually get our **** together and settle on rules that won't get changed in the middle of a week. Because the constant threat of having to redo my team every time Tim or Kaboom or anyone else feels like *****ing about mages is really goddamn distracting.You probably don't need to worry about this as much as you think. Wieg is actually fairly conservative about making significant changes mid-season, which is probably a good thing. And his vote is the only one that really counts.

For what it's worth, I've decided not to persist in calling for a significant shift in the uber/tuber bar, at least until the season is over. I still think the uber weightclass is too broad, but oh well, we've been dealing with this OK for four seasons now.

Regarding "What If?" characters, I flat out don't believe someone as well defined as Xavier-Juggernaut will be banned -- not with you, me, and X all just itching to post a dozen posts saying why that's ridiculous. No one wants to listen to that. ;)

[X]

No one's going to listen to the "We know plenty about them regardless of them being a one shot character" plea.

We've gone over this before and some people simply want to make assumptions over them.

[wiegeabo]

My reply to the the discussion Kaboom has drummed up in the Transactions thread:

Yeah, but God forbid we use common sense. I assumed it was a given that if we're assuming they have the same powers, they'd also have the same failings.

Seriously, at this point I'm getting the impression that you people were letting team owners get away with some of the most asinine **** in past season. "Well, he's a telepath, so he'll just shield my whole team!" Seriously, people? NO ONE called bull**** on that until now?

Also, I propose we put this thing on hold until we can actually get our **** together and settle on rules that won't get changed in the middle of a week. Because the constant threat of having to redo my team every time Tim or Kaboom or anyone else feels like *****ing about mages is really goddamn distracting.


You would have loved season 2.

[wiegeabo]

Also, I propose we put this thing on hold until we can actually get our **** together and settle on rules that won't get changed in the middle of a week. Because the constant threat of having to redo my team every time Tim or Kaboom or anyone else feels like *****ing about mages is really goddamn distracting.


That sort of thing invariably happens. I've been hit with mid-season rank changes myself in previous seasons.

The Etrigan thing was my fault. I thought he was a middleweight. I didn't realize that, excep for possibly his magic, he was an uber level character. That's why I agreed with Harl about not changing Etrigan's rank this week so Kaboom could use him as he intended. He got him in as a middleweight for this match. Next week he's an uber. I could have used New Sun as a middleweight the first week and yet been stuck with him as an uber this time.

Just know that, as the season moves on, this will happen less and less because everyone will get a better feeling of where characters should fall.

[Khellendros]

And if I suddenly had to move a character up or down a rank, okay, that sucks but fine. But if Kaboom gets his way then BANG, that's half my ubers gone. Hence my crankiness.

[X]

You're not going to lose half your team. Chill.

[Kaboom]

And if I suddenly had to move a character up or down a rank, okay, that sucks but fine. But if Kaboom gets his way then BANG, that's half my ubers gone. Hence my crankiness.
did you miss the part in the post whereI said etrigan is just keeping tony at bay for the two minutes it will take for the rest of my team to whollup yours? so that im reling on the 4 on 1?

youre just cranky cuz you thought your team was going to wipe the floor with mine, and now your on the ropes because you just cant rely on tony to doeverything for you by citing to his "magic".

[X]

Khell's cranky!

[TheCorpulent1]

My reply to the the discussion Kaboom has drummed up in the Transactions thread:

Yeah, but God forbid we use common sense. I assumed it was a given that if we're assuming they have the same powers, they'd also have the same failings.

Seriously, at this point I'm getting the impression that you people were letting team owners get away with some of the most asinine **** in past season. "Well, he's a telepath, so he'll just shield my whole team!" Seriously, people? NO ONE called bull**** on that until now?

Also, I propose we put this thing on hold until we can actually get our **** together and settle on rules that won't get changed in the middle of a week. Because the constant threat of having to redo my team every time Tim or Kaboom or anyone else feels like *****ing about mages is really goddamn distracting.
The idea of telepaths and magicians being able to psi-shield entire teams likely came from the same area as the magicians' overpowering in general: season 2's way-too-high uber bar. With guys like X-Man allowed in the DTL, not having some form of psychic protection would be pretty damning. Nothing was stopping a lot of the uber psychics from just charring your entire team's minds to ash within seconds of the fight opening. Now we've got a lower uber bar and the no-blitz rule, so the psi-shields are finally coming under scrutiny again.

[Khellendros]

did you miss the part in the post whereI said etrigan is just keeping tony at bay for the two minutes it will take for the rest of my team to whollup yours? so that im reling on the 4 on 1?Yeah... I am NOT debating whose team beats who in here. Bring it up in our thread, if you feel the need.

youre just cranky cuz you thought your team was going to wipe the floor with mine, and now your on the ropes because you just cant rely on tony to doeverything for you by citing to his "magic".
That's not why I'm cranky, at all. I already posted why I was cranky. Even if I thought I was going to lose to you, that wouldn't piss me off. Tim beat me in a complete blowout, and I didn't get mad about that.

[X]

My write-up is finished and posted in the week two set 3 thread.

Please check it out and give me some feedback on it. Few tweaks now that I'm getting the hang of this again. Let me know!

[Harlekin]

Short and to the point. Mixes nicely the new write-up style with the old. I like a little humility in write-ups, where at least one of a person's team is taken out. Sometimes, that's not really necessary though. I won't comment on anything pertaining to that or strategy-wise yet, so as to not influence anyone. All in all, I'd say it was a pretty good write-up. One jarring little mistake (about Bats' pellet never not reaching Patriarch), but otherwise nicely written.

[X]

Ah, okay.

Thanks, Harlekin.

I don't know. I like not having to do a bodycount for my own team... As in being extremely efficient and ruthless to avoid that in the first place. Take em' out hard, quickly.

[Harlekin]

Eh, I don't usually believe in a flawlessly executed plan. Even if everything goes as planned, there's a certain factor of unpredictability. I tend to think of the weak link in my team and let the opponent capitalize at that as readily as I do on his/hers. I don't mind a "perfect" victory, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it.

[Dark Gog]

I apologize, it seems I've lost everything I'd written over night, and now its very nearly eleven pm and I have to reconstruct and finalise my write-up.

That's fine, for the most part. My school has been on strike for two weeks now, as you could possibly tell by the hours I've been keeping. But it will still require some time.


On a related note, would anyone else frefer it if we juggled the schedule around a little to have write-ups starting early in the week and voting taking place over the weekend?

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, I didn't know schools could go on strike. :wow:

I wouldn't mind a shift in the schedule myself. I work seven days a week, so giving me the weekend to do write-ups doesn't help me much. In fact, the weekend is usually when I hang out with friends after work, so I wind up having to scramble to do a write-up on Monday before the time on wieg's coast catches up to mine.

[Harlekin]

I have no objections to shuffling up the schedule a bit.

[wiegeabo]

If the schedule needs to be moved around, we can move it around. Weekends tend to work better for me (just not these last two). I want to hear about what everyone says first. Maybe I'll send out a pm for confirmation, although everyone's been pretty good about posting in here lately.

[Nightwing.]

Firstly - My Write up is done.
Secondly - I hate Mage battles and i personally want to ban any UBER mages.
Thirdly - I dont know how a schedule shuffle would work for me cos i work shifts.never the same days each week.its like the same days every 3 weeks.

[TheCorpulent1]

There's a growing anti-mage sentiment, I see...

[Nightwing.]

i dont mind the lower level mages who can perform small feats but its the overly powerful ones that just cant be touched that really rile me...

infact you know what?just ban em all :p

[X]

There's a growing anti-mage sentiment, I see...

Er, I was under the impression we were simply going to "limit" them to what they've done in comics.

I already linked everyone to two sites basically detailing everything Strange has ever done. I could do the exact same for Fate.

[LadyVader]

I read your write-up X and I will comment on it when i vote. :)

[X]

*Sigh*

Anyone interested in trades of any sort?

[X]

I read your write-up X and I will comment on it when i vote. :)

I can't wait that long!

PM me! :(

[wiegeabo]

*Sigh*

Anyone interested in trades of any sort?

I've had Morg on the trading block for a while.

[X]

Yeah, you're the only person doing any trading, period.

Hence I asked if anyone else was interested to any degree.

[wiegeabo]

Yeah, you're the only person doing any trading, period.

Hence I asked if anyone else was interested to any degree.

Does anyone else matter?

OH, BURN!!! :word:



....I'm bored :(

[X]

Never would of guessed that. ;)

[X]

So, could the Heroes Reborb Super Skrull squeeze in as a middlweight?

No hypnotic vision. No "anti-matter" blasts.

[Nightwing.]

Yeah, you're the only person doing any trading, period.

Hence I asked if anyone else was interested to any degree.

depends who you want and what youre offering for them

[wiegeabo]

Well, a severe thunderstorm has made power iffy at my house. So my computer is off now. I'm stuck having to use my iPod to type this. And there's no way I'm going to type my whole battle on this thing.

So, I could either give everyone another night for writeups, or go ahead and close them as scheduled.

[X]

Give it another day then, I guess.

Blacklight still needs to ****ing show up.

God I hate people no showing.

[XFanTim]

An extra night would be cool...

[Khellendros]

I don't care about shifting the schedule one way or the other. If we do it, super, if not, whatever.


*Sigh*

Anyone interested in trades of any sort?
Nope. Even if I wanted to get rid of my half of the team, I'd rather just draft an all new character.


About that, though... how long until blacklight gets booted out of the league for no-shows? The more I think about it, the more I sorta want my own team, and now that Ahura's back in town, it'd be the perfect chance to split while giving him some notice. Also, I get the feeling this first season could be a losing season for me, and I'd hate to drag him down with me.

[X]

Like I'd want any of your **** team anyway. :o

[X]

Anyone else check out my write-up?

[X]

Some food for thought...

Is Iron Man currently an uber? Could of sworn he's been used as a middleweight before.

Anyway, he's almost universally considered to be a "mid-tier" by most comic fans.

If you were to stick to using his less powerful armors... No Thor Buster and what not, does anyone else see him as a good middleweight or what?

[TheCorpulent1]

He's an uber to me. I'm pretty sure his current armor puts him at class 100, plus he's got powers thanks to Extremis now. He's able to "talk" to any sort of machinery, from satellites to cell phones, with his mind. Given everything his armor's capable of, that level of strength, his technopathy, and his creativity and genius, I think he's a pretty good uber.

[X]

And his lower end armors?

Like I said, of course some armors are uber.

What about his Silver Centurion armor? Stealth armor?

An owner using those wouldn't have anything more than a middleweight on his hands, would he?

[X]

Annnnd even current Iron Man isn't class 100.

See his dismissals at the hands of The Sentry?

Thor?

How he needed a special suit to fight the Hulk?

Yeah, not class 100.

[Khellendros]

Yeah, Iron Man is probably just an excellent middleweight. The definition I remember of a middleweight is someone who can give ubers trouble, but not necessarily beat them all the time. That describes him pretty well.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Sentry's not exactly a weakling, Thor's more powerful than ever because he's "not holding back," and the Hulk's current writer has said he's literally at his strongest ever, so it's no surprise Iron Man needed special armor. Plus, with Thor, Tony never even touched him. He blasted him a lot, but how is that supposed to indicate anything about what strength class his current armor is at?

[XFanTim]

About that, though... how long until blacklight gets booted out of the league for no-shows? The more I think about it, the more I sorta want my own team, and now that Ahura's back in town, it'd be the perfect chance to split while giving him some notice. Also, I get the feeling this first season could be a losing season for me, and I'd hate to drag him down with me.xman:blacklight participated last week. It's Fantomex who's on the verge of getting the boot if he doesn't show up. Isn't that the rule -- two consecutive no shows and you're out?

You should totally grab your own team Khell. I think you'll do better than you think -- for one thing, you're a hell of a tough debater.

[XFanTim]

I'm pretty sure Iron Man was ranked as an uber on the assumption that he could use any of his armors. I would buy Iron Man with his basic armor as a top-notch middleweight.

[XFanTim]

Someone remind me -- Can Firestorm use all his other powers (transmutation, nuclear energy bolts) while phased? Or does he unphase to attack?

[Khellendros]

I'm pretty sure Iron Man was ranked as an uber on the assumption that he could use any of his armors. I would buy Iron Man with his basic armor as a top-notch middleweight.Oh ****, yeah, access to any armor for whichever battle he's going into would put him at Uber.

[X]

Oh ****, yeah, access to any armor for whichever battle he's going into would put him at Uber.

Obviously.

NOT using his armors is an option as well.

Someone remind me -- Can Firestorm use all his other powers (transmutation, nuclear energy bolts) while phased? Or does he unphase to attack?

Not sure. You'd think he'd attack while phased if he could, right?

[X]

The Sentry's not exactly a weakling, Thor's more powerful than ever because he's "not holding back," and the Hulk's current writer has said he's literally at his strongest ever, so it's no surprise Iron Man needed special armor. Plus, with Thor, Tony never even touched him. He blasted him a lot, but how is that supposed to indicate anything about what strength class his current armor is at?

Class 100 characters don't fold like Tony did against all three of the legitimate
top tiers I just mentioned.

Thor isn't any more powerful, he simply didn't hold back. Big difference.

Khell, Iron Man, class 100? :)

[Khellendros]

Class 100 characters don't fold like Tony did against all three of the legitimate
top tiers I just mentioned.

Thor isn't any more powerful, he simply didn't hold back. Big difference.

Khell, Iron Man, class 100? :)Boy, if he is, he gets in by the SKIN of his teeth. While he can sometimes deal a Class 100 blow or two, he isn't normally, I don't think.

[X]

His armor overloads and dies on him 90% of the time.

Against Surfer? Yup.

Terrax? Yup.

Hulk? Affirmative.

I think he's an elite middleweight, like Ronan.

Who was beating Iron Man up once, to let that be known.

[TheCorpulent1]

You don't know Thor isn't any more powerful. We still haven't gotten definitive word on what the deal is with the Odinpower yet. Either way, that would be the fluke among the three, given that the Sentry can amp himself up and the Hulk is stronger than ever.

And what WWH have you been reading? Class 100 characters are folding left and right against the Hulk.

When has Tony's armor overloaded and died post-Extremis? I don't recall it happening at all except against Thor, who used lightning as an EMP. Although, to be fair, I'm not reading Iron Man's comic at the moment.

[Khellendros]

That's it, Ronan is Uber!!

[X]

You don't know Thor isn't any more powerful. We still haven't gotten definitive word on what the deal is with the Odinpower yet. Either way, that would be the fluke among the three, given that the Sentry can amp himself up and the Hulk is stronger than ever.

And what WWH have you been reading? Class 100 characters are folding left and right against the Hulk.

Sentry can amp himself? Come again?

Who's class 100 that's folding against the Hulk, actually?

Hercules was on his knees LETTING The Hulk break his face.

Zom Strange was easily killing the Hulk until Strange regained control.

Who else is class 100?

[X]

That's it, Ronan is Uber!!

God damn! :cmad:

[Khellendros]

I'm gonna draft the Void, and he is gonna **** your girlfriends.

[X]

Just get the Sentry and break the void at all the time, ho'. :o

[Khellendros]

Seriously though, the Void: Tuber or what you bastard?

[X]

Don't see why not?

Could explain the Hulk bone breaking as the calming influence coming into play.

Not that the Hulk can't be ****ed up like that by others in this thing. Ravage broke his damned neck. Got his neck broken by the Gamma Retards.

CORP ANSWER ME.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Thing is class 100 now, Colossus is closer than before if not actually class 100. Hercules wasn't fighting back, but he was a hell of a lot more battered and bruised after just a few punches than the Hulk was after Herc dealt him a few punches. Black Bolt is class 100.

The Sentry's power level rises and falls depending on his mental state. It's how the Void is a universe-crushing threat on some days and a goofy 'tard in a fedora and overcoat on others. His power is tied to the Sentry's, and the Sentry's is tied to his mental and emotional state. It's cheap, but it's canon.

[X]

The Thing is class 100 now, Colossus is closer than before if not actually class 100. Hercules wasn't fighting back, but he was a hell of a lot more battered and bruised after just a few punches than the Hulk was after Herc dealt him a few punches. Black Bolt is class 100.


......

Khell? :woot: :wow: :woot:

[Khellendros]

Don't come 'round here for help, X. I'm a fellow believer in the Church of Class 100 Colossus, *****.

[TheCorpulent1]

Everyone wants Colossus to be class 100. Otherwise you can't help thinking, "What's the point?" whenever you look at him. :o

[X]

Don't come 'round here for help, X. I'm a fellow believer in the Church of Class 100 Colossus, *****.

*Sigh*

So I'm alone in saying Thing and Colossus really aren't class 100 because you can't be serious, right?

[Khellendros]

*Sigh*

So I'm alone in saying Thing and Colossus really aren't class 100 because you can't be serious, right?Oh, thing isn't Class 100





Also, how heavily is it frowned on someone drafting a character someone else brings up in this thread? I mean, does he get called a dick but gets away with it, or is it actually disallowed?

[XFanTim]

If the Thing and Colossus are "Class 100", it just means "Class 100 ain't what it used to be." They'd still get their asses kicked by the Hulk or Thor.

X, I'd be at least somewhat interested in acquiring either Ambrose Chase or Patriarch, if you're interested in trading them.

[wiegeabo]

Oh, thing isn't Class 100





Also, how heavily is it frowned on someone drafting a character someone else brings up in this thread? I mean, does he get called a dick but gets away with it, or is it actually disallowed?

That's your answer.

[X]

Oh, thing isn't Class 100

Also, how heavily is it frowned on someone drafting a character someone else brings up in this thread? I mean, does he get called a dick but gets away with it, or is it actually disallowed?

Colossus isn't either.

Corp brings up a handbook that says Ben is "class 100" or some such. I merely go "Meh!" :o

And it's seriously frowned on, you ****ing whore.

[XFanTim]

Also, how heavily is it frowned on someone drafting a character someone else brings up in this thread? I mean, does he get called a dick but gets away with it, or is it actually disallowed?If someone is clearly asking about a character because they're about to pick them up (e.g., confirming their rank), we usually don't try to steal them. But it's not like it's an official rule.

[X]

If the Thing and Colossus are "Class 100", it just means "Class 100 ain't what it used to be." They'd still get their asses kicked by the Hulk or Thor.

X, I'd be at least somewhat interested in acquiring either Ambrose Chase or Patriarch, if you're interested in trading them.

Ah... who would you be willing to let go?

[X]

I ****ing killed you Khell. I killed you dead. :cmad: :cmad:

[Khellendros]

And it's seriously frowned on, you ****ing whore.I'm not asking because I want to do it, *****!

[X]

I'm not asking because I want to do it, *****! .

You fail at life! Hand in your card and try again! :cmad:

[Khellendros]

You fail at life! Hand in your card and try again! :cmad:

Your mother smells like blood and corn chips!

[XFanTim]

Probably any of my regs except Darkchylde -- since she's my only defense against magic short of just using Loki all the time. Much as I like the Ghost, I've been thinking of dropping him anyway for a similar character...

[TheCorpulent1]

Why wouldn't you just use Loki all the time. :confused:

[Khellendros]

Why wouldn't you just use Loki all the time. :confused:He's morally opposed to uber mages.

[X]

I call shenanigan's on class 100 Thing. :cmad:

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I don't care. There's a comic that says he's class 100, but he hasn't shown much to back it up outside of Slott's short-lived series. Either way, you just picked up Iron Man as a middleweight with no mention of specific armors and wieg didn't say anything, so you win.
He's morally opposed to uber mages.
Me, too. But it's ****ing Loki. :o

[X]

He's morally opposed to uber mages.

He's taken a solemn vow...! To molest little boys.

[Khellendros]

Honestly though, X, your mother needs a bath.

[Khellendros]

Okay, without giving too much info, because I don't trust anyone in this wretched hive of villains and traitors... Say a GL character loses their ring (gets it stolen), and then develops super powers of their own. On page, they don't actually get the ring back on page, but since they're still a member of the Corps, it's pretty much a given they would have gotten it back. Would I be able to draft said character with their ring back and the powers they got in the interim?

[TheCorpulent1]

Depends on what the powers are, I suspect.

[Khellendros]

Depends on what the powers are, I suspect.Yeah, about that, too. How uber is too uber when combining powers with a GL ring? Would Sodam Yat as a GL (not Ion) be draftable, for isntance, even though he's potentially got full Kryptonian-level powers?

[X]

Okay, without giving too much info, because I don't trust anyone in this wretched hive of villains and traitors... Say a GL character loses their ring (gets it stolen), and then develops super powers of their own. On page, they don't actually get the ring back on page, but since they're still a member of the Corps, it's pretty much a given they would have gotten it back. Would I be able to draft said character with their ring back and the powers they got in the interim?

Well, are there any other characters currently allowed in the DTL with that kind of a situation?

[X]

Yeah, about that, too. How uber is too uber when combining powers with a GL ring? Would Sodam Yat as a GL (not Ion) be draftable, for isntance, even though he's potentially got full Kryptonian-level powers?

We've never really discussed Yat, but I wouldn't peg him as being too uber.

...

But that's just me. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know. We had Kal-El as a GL in the DTL before, but I don't think he had his Kryptonian powers at the same level as they are normally. A full-powered Kryptonian or Daxamite is tricky, since they can effectively use the ring to nullify all their natural weaknesses and use their natural powers to compensate for the ring's weaknesses. My instinct would be too uber, but apparently I'm really conservative.

[X]

Does anyone honestly see a top tier with a ring being too uber?

They don't become more powerful than the sum of their parts.

Doomsday Brainiac destroyed a Kryptonian and a GL in moments.

This changes when the two are combined... how?

[Tropico]

Someone remind me -- Can Firestorm use all his other powers (transmutation, nuclear energy bolts) while phased? Or does he unphase to attack?

He couldn't. He had to have his atomic density at normal to do it.

[X]

Anyone have an opinion on the Extremis Iron Man armor being an uber or a middleweight?

[Dark Gog]

Also, how heavily is it frowned on someone drafting a character someone else brings up in this thread? I mean, does he get called a dick but gets away with it, or is it actually disallowed?


I suppose you'd want to give them the opportunity to clearly pass on the character.

[Dark Gog]

I can't imagine even Extremis Iron Man being considered Uber. Not for as long as characters such as Lightray or Brainiac 417 are allowed under the Mid-tier bracket.

Then again, perhaps I'm not familiar enough with that armor. I certainly wouldn't consider it C100, nor do I rate Colossus and the Thing as such. The She-Hulk is much closer to that rating at the moment, and even she not been at her Champion-fighting levels since the build-up to WWH started.

[X]

I can't imagine even Extremis Iron Man being considered Uber. Not for as long as characters such as Lightray or Brainiac 417 are allowed under the Mid-tier bracket.

Then again, perhaps I'm not familiar enough with that armor. I certainly wouldn't consider it C100, nor do I rate Colossus and the Thing as such. The She-Hulk is much closer to that rating at the moment, and even she not been at her Champion-fighting levels since the build-up to WWH started.

Yeah, Jupiter suit and all that.

Hurm.

I don't know. Extremis is one of Iron Man's more powerful armors and Thor absolutely pulverized Iron Man in it.

Wasn't even a contest.

[Harlekin]

Okay, without giving too much info, because I don't trust anyone in this wretched hive of villains and traitors... Say a GL character loses their ring (gets it stolen), and then develops super powers of their own. On page, they don't actually get the ring back on page, but since they're still a member of the Corps, it's pretty much a given they would have gotten it back. Would I be able to draft said character with their ring back and the powers they got in the interim?
No. We try to avoid speculation wherever possible. We don't see him on page with the powers and the ring, then he hasn't got them.

[Nightwing.]

I don't care about shifting the schedule one way or the other. If we do it, super, if not, whatever.



Nope. Even if I wanted to get rid of my half of the team, I'd rather just draft an all new character.


About that, though... how long until blacklight gets booted out of the league for no-shows? The more I think about it, the more I sorta want my own team, and now that Ahura's back in town, it'd be the perfect chance to split while giving him some notice. Also, I get the feeling this first season could be a losing season for me, and I'd hate to drag him down with me.

blacklight showed last week.it was fantomex who was a no show and has been since the start

[Ahura Mazda]

Hi Guys, just got back from the States.

I have a question given I just read kaboom's post. How in the hell is etrigan allowed as a medium if he has full access to all of his magical powers making him a viable opponent to a sorceror supreme.

As a medium he should not be able to challenge the sorceror supreme on a magical level.

[Khellendros]

No. We try to avoid speculation wherever possible. We don't see him on page with the powers and the ring, then he hasn't got them.Hm. While it would be fair to disallow the ring/powers combo if it's never been on paper, I don't think you can say it's because we avoid speculation. A notable element to this league, for now at least, is that you do make SOME assumptions about characters, unless there is evidence on the page to contradict them.

[Nightwing.]

Are we any closer to banning mages?

[wiegeabo]

I'll note this again: Jared Stevens used to be a med.

Why wouldn't he be a reg?

[wiegeabo]

Are we any closer to banning mages?

No, but we've limited them. No more blitzing. No more team-wide protections (unless actually shown in the comics). No unbreakable shields.

[Ahura Mazda]

etrigan - anybody?

[wiegeabo]

I let him in as a mid because I didn't realize his full potential. I've bumped him up to uber, but since Kaboom got him in as a mid I let him keep him at that rank this week. But, he can only be used at middleweight levels for this match.

[Ahura Mazda]

I let him in as a mid because I didn't realize his full potential. I've bumped him up to uber, but since Kaboom got him in as a mid I let him keep him at that rank this week. But, he can only be used at middleweight levels for this match.

Meaning he does not have sorceror supreme level magic?

[X]

No, but we've limited them. No more blitzing. No more team-wide protections (unless actually shown in the comics). No unbreakable shields.

You can use indestructible shields if you've got them. Can't just make them up, I'm assuming.

Crimson Bands, anyone?

[Khellendros]

Hi Guys, just got back from the States.

I have a question given I just read kaboom's post. How in the hell is etrigan allowed as a medium if he has full access to all of his magical powers making him a viable opponent to a sorceror supreme.

As a medium he should not be able to challenge the sorceror supreme on a magical level.
I wouldn't even bother worrying about it until Kaboom proves he operates on that level, magically.

[Khellendros]

Are we any closer to banning mages?Seriously, why do you have such a boner for baning them? I assume because you've just recently brought it up, you have a problem with how I'm using mine. Care to elaborate on how I'm putting our Uber mage to improper use?

[X]

There's no case for banning powerful mages now that we've laid down guidelines for them, really.

[Kaboom]

I wouldn't even bother worrying about it until Kaboom proves he operates on that level, magically.

Keep Etrigan at medium level, I'm not saying that he would beat Tony one on one, I'm saying he would be skilled enough to prevent Tony from influencing the rest of the matches.

The rest of my team should pretty easily over power yours, so it would turn into 4 on 1 and Tony would lose. Because for Tony to defeat the combined forces of my team based on his "magic", especially considering I have Apocalypse, would defeinetly make him TUBER--or at the very least demonstrate why mages hsould be banned from the DTL

[Kaboom]

just to be clear im not saying mages should be banned, im just saying they need to have limits.

[Khellendros]

There's no case for banning powerful mages now that we've laid down guidelines for them, really.

Well I obviously agree, but Nightwing still wants it done, so I'd like to know why. And past misuses are no longer valid reasons because, as has been said often, steps have been taken to limit those.

[XFanTim]

Does anyone honestly see a top tier with a ring being too uber?

They don't become more powerful than the sum of their parts.

Doomsday Brainiac destroyed a Kryptonian and a GL in moments.

This changes when the two are combined... how?
Well, the one thing I can think of is speed. Kyle Rayner can use his ring to make anything he can think of, but he can still only think at normal human speed, which puts him at a disadvantage against super fast opponents (like Doomsday).

But Superman can think and perform complex tasks at extremely high speed -- so it stands to reason that Superman with a GL ring would be able to use it far faster than a normal GL.

Someone might argue that Kyle could use the ring to boost his own speed anyway, but I'm not so sure bumping himself up to Superman speed wouldn't make him too uber.

[XFanTim]

Getting back to Khell's question: I'd personally kind of balk at having a GL with other powers if he was never shown having those powers and his GL powers simultaneously. I can't think of any time that situation has come up before -- closest I can think of is Validus-GL (Validus appeared as a GL in an Elseworlds but never did anything). He was briefly allowed, but is now out under the rule that a character must be in at least one issue that demonstrates his powers significantly. Likewise, if we've never seen character X using those two powersets together for the better part of an issue, I don't think they'd be allowed.

[X]

Well, the one thing I can think of is speed. Kyle Rayner can use his ring to make anything he can think of, but he can still only think at normal human speed, which puts him at a disadvantage against super fast opponents (like Doomsday).

But Superman can think and perform complex tasks at extremely high speed -- so it stands to reason that Superman with a GL ring would be able to use it far faster than a normal GL.

Someone might argue that Kyle could use the ring to boost his own speed anyway, but I'm not so sure bumping himself up to Superman speed wouldn't make him too uber.

GL's have been shown operating alongside Flash's for decades, from Barry to Wally.

They've got superspeed.

[Khellendros]

Getting back to Khell's question: I'd personally kind of balk at having a GL with other powers if he was never shown having those powers and his GL powers simultaneously. I can't think of any time that situation has come up before -- closest I can think of is Validus-GL (Validus appeared as a GL in an Elseworlds but never did anything). He was briefly allowed, but is now out under the rule that a character must be in at least one issue that demonstrates his powers significantly. Likewise, if we've never seen character X using those two powersets together for the better part of an issue, I don't think they'd be allowed.Okay, fair enough.

[XFanTim]

GL's have been shown operating alongside Flash's for decades, from Barry to Wally.

They've got superspeed.
Ability to move at superspeed, or ability to react at superspeed? I mean, are there any examples of GL's performing high speed feats, as opposed to just flying fast enough to keep up with Flash?

[XFanTim]

He couldn't. He had to have his atomic density at normal to do it.Thanks. That makes my writeup a bit easier to write.

It should definitely be up today, by the way. Sorry for the delay -- I was up late Sunday night getting work done, and then I fell asleep early Monday because I was still sleep-deprived.

[wiegeabo]

GL's have been shown operating alongside Flash's for decades, from Barry to Wally.

They've got superspeed.

But the GL's don't have superspeed themselves.


Using your example. If Doomsday breaks through Kyle's constructs, Kyle's a dead man. Doomsday's going to make him a smear on the ground and not even look back because Kyle's only human.

But even if Doomsday breaks through Superman's constructs, he still has to fight Superman with all of his powers. And Superman can last long enough to start using his ring again. So Doomsday would essentially be going up against two uber powersets at the same time.

Add to that the fact that Supe's willpower is so strong he was able to will Gardner's ring off of Guy's finger and onto his own. Granted Guy's not the GL with the most willpower, but he's got to have a super strong will to begin with just to wield a ring.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, durability is another point. You could kill Kyle by teleporting a bomb past his forcefield. Against a Superman-GL, you'd just be pissing him off.

[X]

Ability to move at superspeed, or ability to react at superspeed? I mean, are there any examples of GL's performing high speed feats, as opposed to just flying fast enough to keep up with Flash?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/2d445df5.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/gl189_16.jpg

[TheCorpulent1]

It looks like Hal and John are just traveling at super-speed there. Barry's there evacuating at least two or three people before Hal can even finish a sentence and fire one blast.
Add to that the fact that Supe's willpower is so strong he was able to will Gardner's ring off of Guy's finger and onto his own. Granted Guy's not the GL with the most willpower, but he's got to have a super strong will to begin with just to wield a ring.
When did Superman do that? :confused:

[Khellendros]

But the GL's don't have superspeed themselves.


Using your example. If Doomsday breaks through Kyle's constructs, Kyle's a dead man. Doomsday's going to make him a smear on the ground and not even look back because Kyle's only human.

But even if Doomsday breaks through Superman's constructs, he still has to fight Superman with all of his powers. And Superman can last long enough to start using his ring again. So Doomsday would essentially be going up against two uber powersets at the same time.

Add to that the fact that Supe's willpower is so strong he was able to will Gardner's ring off of Guy's finger and onto his own. Granted Guy's not the GL with the most willpower, but he's got to have a super strong will to begin with just to wield a ring.

Just to settle it once and for all, do you agree with the others' decision that the character in question wouldn't be draftable with powers + ring unless they were shown on-page with both?

[X]

But the GL's don't have superspeed themselves.


Using your example. If Doomsday breaks through Kyle's constructs, Kyle's a dead man. Doomsday's going to make him a smear on the ground and not even look back because Kyle's only human.

But even if Doomsday breaks through Superman's constructs, he still has to fight Superman with all of his powers. And Superman can last long enough to start using his ring again. So Doomsday would essentially be going up against two uber powersets at the same time.

Add to that the fact that Supe's willpower is so strong he was able to will Gardner's ring off of Guy's finger and onto his own. Granted Guy's not the GL with the most willpower, but he's got to have a super strong will to begin with just to wield a ring.

That'd make sense if Doomsday wasn't capable of beating both of them with the utmost ease.

Doomsday has broken Superman's bones. An amped up by mother box Superman. Snapped his arm like a twig.

You really think a GL ring would change anything? You might as well given a GL ring to Superman instead of a mother box during H/P. Made no difference.

[X]

It looks like Hal and John are just traveling at super-speed there. Barry's there evacuating at least two or three people before Hal can even finish a sentence and fire one blast.

When did Superman do that? :confused:

Do what?

[TheCorpulent1]

What wieg said.

[X]

Honestly, I'd love for anyone to give me their opinion on Doomsday at his best vs. Superman with a GL ring.

We already SAW mother box Superman treated like an kid vs. Doomsday.

Suddenly his chances increase ten fold with a GL ring?

Garbage.

[Harlekin]

Hm. While it would be fair to disallow the ring/powers combo if it's never been on paper, I don't think you can say it's because we avoid speculation. A notable element to this league, for now at least, is that you do make SOME assumptions about characters, unless there is evidence on the page to contradict them.
Which is why I said "wherever possible".

[Kaboom]

Honestly, I'd love for anyone to give me their opinion on Doomsday at his best vs. Superman with a GL ring.

We already SAW mother box Superman treated like an kid vs. Doomsday.

Suddenly his chances increase ten fold with a GL ring?

Garbage.

isn't doomsday whole deal regeneration and never being beaten the same way twice? Superman already beat doomsday once. So doomsday should by himself already be able to defeat supes now. Then it becomes just a simple manner of Doomsday being able to defeat a GL.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, those images show GL moving fast. But my point is, I don't think he has Superman-level reflexes.

It's true that Doomsday-Brainiac might present a matchup problem for Superman-GL, but on the whole I think there are more characters who would have trouble with Supes-GL, due to the fact that he's more versatile. I mean, someone like Hadrian could just teleport Doomsday-Brainiac into space and win by battlefield-removal (it's kinda cheap, but he could do it), but that would never work against a GL.

Although honestly I question whether a GL with prep shouldn't be able to beat Doomsday if they used their powers intelligently (which, I admit, hasn't happened in their comic-book fights with Doomsday). Haven't they used the rings to make themselves invisible, make themselves intangible, teleport people, etc.? I'm pretty sure I've seen Hal do all these things in a respect thread. All you need is a way to survive Doomsday long enough to teleport him into space or into the Sun or whatever.

[XFanTim]

isn't doomsday whole deal regeneration and never being beaten the same way twice? Superman already beat doomsday once. So doomsday should by himself already be able to defeat supes now. Then it becomes just a simple manner of Doomsday being able to defeat a GL.
I'm pretty sure he's beaten a whole planet of GL's before too. Didn't it take the sacrifice of one of the Guardians to stop him from destroying Oa?

But like I said, this doesn't really mesh with my understanding of the full range of GL powers, unless they're all idiots. Doomsday's still doesn't have self-propelled flight, right? Why not just 'port him into space?:huh:

[wiegeabo]

When did Superman do that? :confused:

In an issue of the Armageddon 2001 annuals.

[X]

Yeah, those images show GL moving fast. But my point is, I don't think he has Superman-level reflexes.

I'm arguing that they have superhuman reflexes, not Superman level.

[X]

I'm pretty sure he's beaten a whole planet of GL's before too. Didn't it take the sacrifice of one of the Guardians to stop him from destroying Oa?

But like I said, this doesn't really mesh with my understanding of the full range of GL powers, unless they're all idiots. Doomsday's still doesn't have self-propelled flight, right? Why not just 'port him into space?:huh:

Doomsday had a ring of his own and was homing in on Oa.

[XFanTim]

Doomsday had a ring of his own and was homing in on Oa.I didn't realize he had his own ring. Is Doomsday capable of using a ring?

[Blacklight]

If Doomsday-Brainiac is allowed and can beat Green Lantern Superman, then GL-Supes should be allowed.

[wiegeabo]

Writeups will be closing in eight hours.

[TheCorpulent1]

Dang. It feels weird to actually be done with mine early.

[XFanTim]

If Doomsday-Brainiac is allowed and can beat Green Lantern Superman, then GL-Supes should be allowed.
We shouldn't allow someone just because a currently allowed character can beat them. Some characters match up better against some people than others. We have to go by how they'd fair against currently allowed ubers on the whole.

I still think a GL living up to their full potential is more dangerous than someone like Doomsday, because of the variety of attacks the GL can muster. Hal Jordan has traveled through time, transmuted matter, teleported himself and others (he 'ported Barry Allen from Central City to Coast City), altered his size (including shrinking himself to atomic size), shrunk the Shaggy Man down to the point where he could fit in his hand, etc. [Hal Jordan Respect Thread (http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=65565)]

Of course, I doubt Superman-GL or the Daxamite-GL could do all that. Can anyone give a list of what current GL's are capable of? If those guys are just Superman-level bruisers with constructs, I don't really see a problem with them. It's when the GL-rings get into the territory of "I can do anything I can think of" that they become problematic -- to the point where I wouldn't want to add Superman-level physical stats on top of that.

[TheCorpulent1]

GL rookies are like children with BB guns. Their rings are almost totally useless and they're easily killed by anyone with a shred of power. Really experienced veterans like Hal, Kilowog, Kyle, Guy, John, and Salaak are the ones who start venturing into the "I can do anything" territory. At least, that's how they're portrayed in the current GL Corps comics. Of course, the current Corps seems weaker as a whole than the previous Corps. That could be due to the fact that most of the vets were killed off in the previous Corps' destruction, so there's a much higher ratio of newbies to vets now.

[X]

We shouldn't allow someone just because a currently allowed character can beat them. Some characters match up better against some people than others. We have to go by how they'd fair against currently allowed ubers on the whole.

I still think a GL living up to their full potential is more dangerous than someone like Doomsday, because of the variety of attacks the GL can muster. Hal Jordan has traveled through time, transmuted matter, teleported himself and others (he 'ported Barry Allen from Central City to Coast City), altered his size (including shrinking himself to atomic size), shrunk the Shaggy Man down to the point where he could fit in his hand, etc. [Hal Jordan Respect Thread (http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=65565)]

Of course, I doubt Superman-GL or the Daxamite-GL could do all that. Can anyone give a list of what current GL's are capable of? If those guys are just Superman-level bruisers with constructs, I don't really see a problem with them. It's when the GL-rings get into the territory of "I can do anything I can think of" that they become problematic -- to the point where I wouldn't want to add Superman-level physical stats on top of that.

And not a bit of all that variety changes how combat formidable they are, which we factor into the DTL.

Doomsday has killed HUNDREDS of GL's. This is before even the Death of Superman arc.

I don't care about every feat a character with a versatile power-set has done in 60 years of existing.

Doomsday has always trounced top tiers. Martian telepaths, Green Lantern ring wielders, Kryptonian's, whatever.

There's a massive, MASSIVE power deficit evident by the fact that they get steamrolled by Doomsday like children.

[X]

Honestly, feats are NOT fights.

Our characters pick up the slack by being written intelligently by us but they aren't magically multiples times as powerful as they used to be.

[XFanTim]

I'm the first to ignore feats like smashing a planet with a punch in favor of going by how effective a guys punches have looked in actual combat.

But when a feat demonstrates that a person has a power he hasn't used in combat, that's something else. Hal Jordan teleporting Barry Allen across the country (without being anywhere near him) isn't an irrelevant feat, because it shows that he could teleport someone in a fight. If that's part of his powerset, he could teleport Doomsday off the battlefield at the start of the fight.

And Hal shrinking Shaggy Man down to miniscule size and trapping him in a bottle is a combat-feat, and a damn impressive one.

[X]

And that's not something Hal solely could do. The Shaggy Man's body is pliable, and not very durable at all.

[XFanTim]

And that's not something Hal solely could do. The Shaggy Man's body is pliable, and not very durable at all.
I'm not sure durability has anything to do with whether someone could shrink you with a Green Lantern ring.

I will say that I think that if a Superman-type GL could shrink Doomsday down to a tiny fraction of his size and strength, then Doomsday would get his ass kicked.

Although I'd probably call BS on someone having Superman-GL break out a feat that Hal only used, what, a couple times in his whole history?

[X]

He "shrank" him by compressing the Shaggy Man inside of a construct.

He couldn't of done this if he was nearly invulnerable.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought the Shaggy Man was nearly invulnerable. :confused:

[XFanTim]

He "shrank" him by compressing the Shaggy Man inside of a construct.That's not how I interpreted it. I'm just going by the scans, but to me it looked like Hal just zapped him and suddenly Shaggy Man was tiny.
image1 (http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/ec72667e.jpg)
image2 (http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/19a78923.jpg)

Hal can also shrink himself to atomic size.
image1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/GL008SA-13.jpg)
image2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/GL008SA-16.jpg)

[X]

I thought the Shaggy Man was nearly invulnerable. :confused:

Not at all.

Batman blew his arm off using a batrang.

Huntresses arrows stuck into him.

He was blown apart by an exploding arrow during the Crisis.

Massive regeneration is his thing, not durability.

[Dark Gog]

I'm not sure how someone can go from claiming GLs have superspeed based on a few scattered feats, to insisting that he doesn't care about random feats from across sixty years of continuity, all within a page or two of the discussion. (Not that any of us should be using sixty years' worth of references for Green Lanterns in the first place.)

However, let's do try and bear in mind that Mother Boxes, far from being equal to them, are demonstratedly inferior to the Rings, in addition to lacking the full scope of their abilities. Indeed, it may do to remember Mother Boxes by their very nature are some of the least battle-oriented pieces of DXM machines around. This, again in contrast to the Rings, which are weapons by design. After-all, in the above example, should superman decide to use a force-field rather than fortify his already considerable strength, then in addition to getting past it and his durability, an enemy would have to reckon with the Ring's automated defenses against mortal harm.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's not how I interpreted it. I'm just going by the scans, but to me it looked like Hal just zapped him and suddenly Shaggy Man was tiny.
image1 (http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/ec72667e.jpg)
image2 (http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/19a78923.jpg)

Hal can also shrink himself to atomic size.
image1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/GL008SA-13.jpg)
image2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/GL008SA-16.jpg)
Yeah, I don't see any compressing via construct going on there. Hal throws some chain constructs around the Shaggy Man, which he breaks out of, and then he focuses and zaps him into bite-sized-land.

[X]

I'm not sure how someone can go from claiming GLs have superspeed based on a few scattered feats, to insisting that he doesn't care about random feats from across sixty years of continuity, all within a page or two of the discussion. (Not that any of us should be using sixty years' worth of references for Green Lanterns in the first place.)

However, let's do try and bear in mind that Mother Boxes, far from being equal to them, are demonstratedly inferior to the Rings, in addition to lacking the full scope of their abilities. Indeed, it may do to remember Mother Boxes by their very nature are some of the least battle-oriented pieces of DXM machines around. This, again in contrast to the Rings, which are weapons by design. After-all, in the above example, should superman decide to use a force-field rather than fortify his already considerable strength, then in addition to getting past it and his durability, an enemy would have to reckon with the Ring's automated defenses against mortal harm.

*Sigh*

Please, do find me half a dozen instances of GL's shrinking people down. Because THAT'S what I was referring I couldn't care less about.

I do know I can find half a dozen feats of GL's moving and operating at superspeed.

It's unbelievably obscure compared to relatively common. :o

[Dark Gog]

Please, do find me half a dozen instances of GL's shrinking people down. Because THAT'S what I was referring I couldn't care less about.

Then the least you could have done was so. The post you were replying to certainly wasn't about that feat specifically, but about a GLs versatility in general.

[Dark Gog]

I'm still about a hour or so from finishing my write-up. I can post what I have now if required to, but ridiculously patchy.

[X]

Then the least you could have done was so. The post you were replying to certainly wasn't about that feat specifically, but about a GLs versatility in general.

GL's versatility with their most obscure feats.

As in pulling out the very most ridiculous things Green Lantern's have done in the 60 years they've existed.

[wiegeabo]

Closing writeups within the hour.

[wiegeabo]

I'm still about a hour or so from finishing my write-up. I can post what I have now if required to, but ridiculously patchy.

Better hurry up, if you haven't finished already.

[Dark Gog]

I'm actually making really good progress now.

[XFanTim]

GL's versatility with their most obscure feats.

As in pulling out the very most ridiculous things Green Lantern's have done in the 60 years they've existed.I'm fine with saying GLs can't use random obscure feats that have only shown up a couple times in 60 years, if that's what you're suggesting. But I'd rather officially rule that people can't do that stuff instead of just assuming they won't when we're assessing how powerful GLs are.

Again, if GLs are mostly limited to constructs, I don't see the problem with the Superman-type GLs. Don't we already have a DTL-legal Superman-type character with constructs, namely Samaritan?

[Dark Gog]

Posted, finally. I'll edit-out anything truly jarring later.

[DTL Commish]

Writeups are closed

[LadyVader]

And now we can debate? :)

[Dark Gog]

Any comments on my write-up? I am rarely all too confident about my English.

As it is right now, I tentatively assume that it is crap.

[Harlekin]

The language was a bit too flowery in some cases, making it a bit confusing.

But y'know, obviously it sucks and my write-up is ten times better. :p

[Dark Gog]

I was going for a Zelazny-ish feel, but that faded early-on since I could never find the time to put it all down at once. (And also 'cause I'm not Zelazny.)

I suppose that you can see the results.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm fine with saying GL's can't use random obscure feats that have only shown up a couple times in 60 years, if that's what you're suggesting. But I'd rather officially rule that people can't do that stuff instead of just assuming they won't when we're assessing how powerful GL's are.

Again, if GL's are mostly limited to constructs, I don't see the problem with the Superman-type GLs. Don't we already have a DTL-legal Superman-type character with constructs, namely Samaritan?
Yeah, Samaritan's legal because all he has is some sort of energy web thingy that he can manipulate like very basic constructs. He can't do constructs on the level of a GL, and he doesn't have all the other stuff GLs can do.

Also, if we're limiting GLs solely to constructs and maybe phasing or whatever else they regularly use, there's no way they're ubers.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, Samaritan's legal because all he has is some sort of energy web thingy that he can manipulate like very basic constructs. He can't do constructs on the level of a GL, and he doesn't have all the other stuff GLs can do.

Also, if we're limiting GLs solely to constructs and maybe phasing or whatever else they regularly use, there's no way they're ubers.
Really, standard GL powers don't rise to the level of uber? I don't buy that. I know I've seen GLs beat uber level bruisers without having to break out any really obscure powers.

I'm not sure I really see the difference between "basic" constructs and advanced constructs as far as combat usefulness. If Kyle makes a construct laser rifle and blasts someone, is it really different than just shooting an energy blast? If he makes a dragon swoop down and grab them, is it really any different than making a big claw that grabs them? The main advantage of complex constructs that springs to mind is you can use them like illusions to trick people, and that's not such a big deal. Unless we're talking about Quasar making a Galactus-depowering machine and stuff like that, which no one's going to vote for anyway.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, mostly because Quasar didn't know how to make it without Reed Richards.

Anyway, if you're going to re-evaluate all of the construct-makers across the board to uber, would that mean the Invisible Woman is uber? We've seen GLs beat uber-level bruisers without using obscure powers, but we've also seen them get their asses kicked in situations where simply keeping their force field up would've saved them just as often, if not more often. Without adding in their additional feats, like closing black holes, their average is pretty weak.

[Nightwing.]

No, but we've limited them. No more blitzing. No more team-wide protections (unless actually shown in the comics). No unbreakable shields.

what about the whole being untouchable?i mean its basically a battle of who has the most powerful mage. One person gets strange another gets a more powerful version and so on until they are just touching the tuber bar.I get really narked with mages cos even if they dont have an unbreakable shield people still cant get close to them...

[XFanTim]

Yeah, mostly because Quasar didn't know how to make it without Reed Richards.Yeah, but even if you have Quasar and Reed on your team, if you have him make a device to depower my ubers I'm calling bull****. That would be taking a one-time cheesy plot device and pretending it's a legitimate attack.

Anyway, if you're going to re-evaluate all of the construct-makers across the board to uber, would that mean the Invisible Woman is uber?I'm not saying constructs = uber, necessarily, my point was more that I'm not sure having more complex consructs would push GL-Supes to tuber if Samaritan is uber. But I don't really know what Samaritan can do.

As for Invisible Woman, I still see her as medium. She has less offensive capabilities than a GL (she can't even shoot energy blasts, for one thing), and as good as her forcefield is I don't think it's as strong as Quasar's or a GL's.

We've seen GLs beat uber-level bruisers without using obscure powers, but we've also seen them get their asses kicked in situations where simply keeping their force field up would've saved them just as often, if not more often. Without adding in their additional feats, like closing black holes, their average is pretty weak.As I've said before, win/loss record means less to me than what they're capable of. If they lose a fight because they stupidly drop their shield, that's hardly relevant, because that should never happen in the DTL.

Feats like black hole closing don't matter much to me -- how often is that going to come up? I'm talking things like were mentioned in that Hal respect thread I linked -- size changing of themselves and others, teleportation, matter transmutation, etc. I don't think people should be using those unless they're standard GL feats -- but if they are going to use all that stuff, I don't want them combining it with a Superman-level character.

One of the best arguments X had for why the Surfer was legit is that he doesn't actually fight at Superman or Flash type speed, even though he can fly faster than that. Likewise, Dr. Strange can only react so fast if we don't allow cheesy time-manipulation based speed-ups. So that means a superspeed brick like Superman or Doomsday could still give those guys a headache. If you take a guy with Superman-level reaction time and add transmutation/teleportation/phasing/forcefields/shrinking/growing/etc., that's pushing him over the tuber bar in my opinion.

[TheCorpulent1]

So you're basically just saying we should limit GLs who also have other powers to the standard, regularly used ring powers?

[XFanTim]

To clarify my point on standard GL feats -- I'm not saying every GL should have exactly the same abilities. Of course the more experienced ones can do a bit more. But just because Hal does something twice in his career, it doesn't mean that's even a standard Hal feat. That'd be like me saying Xavier has telekinesis just because Stan Lee occasionally forgot what "telepathy" meant in the early X-Men issues.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think that'd be perfectly fine if the comics hadn't come out and said that Xavier didn't have telekinesis later on. Unless the feats are retconned out at some later date, why shouldn't those characters be able to use them? Just because someone doesn't use something too often, doesn't mean they can't use it.

[XFanTim]

So you're basically just saying we should limit GLs who also have other powers to the standard, regularly used ring powers?I'm saying we should limit every GL to that particular GLs standard powerset, not allowing some random power they pulled out of their ass on one or two occasions over the course of a decade or more.

For GLs without a lot of appearances, we should limit them to whatever is standard for a generic GL.

I don't know GLs well enough to know exactly what all the standard powers are. If it's basically energy blasts, shields, and constructs, then I think the Supes-GL types might be legit ubers. If it's a bunch of other stuff like matter transmutation, then I think they're probably tuber. If we're in part only allowing Silver Surfer because he doesn't fight at Superman-level speed, than a Superman-speed character with herald type powers is tuber.

I'm not saying we should limit a characters power to allow them to fit under the uber/tuber bar. If they're tuber, they're tuber.

[XFanTim]

So really there are four questions:

(1) Should someone like Hal be able to use obscure feats like shrinking someone because he used it once or twice over the course of several decades? (I also mentioned teleportation and matter transmutation as specific examples.)

(2) If so, should other GLs (at least other experienced GLs) be able to do the same thing?

(3) Can people like Superman-GL or Daxamite-GL do that stuff?

(4) Are Superman-GL and Daxamite-GL tuber?

I'm saying:
(1) Probably not
(2) No
(3) No
(4) No, if the answer to 3 is no.

Even if the answer to (1) is yes, my answer to (4) is only contingent on how we answer (3), if you see what I mean.

[TheCorpulent1]

Okay, I got you. My answers would be (1) yes, unless he's been retconned to not be able to do those things later; (2) only if they've shown the ability to do the same thing themselves; (3) probably not, if they've only appeared for a little while; and (4) not if they only have the basic energy projection and construct powers.

Basically, I see all GLs as unique. Different levels of experience and willpower yield different results. Geoff Johns portrayed this wonderfully in GL: Rebirth. Kilowog, for example, is apparently the only major Green Lantern whose ring produces sound because, I guess, whatever makes Kilowog Kilowog makes him want his ring to make sounds. Similarly, if only Hal has ever shown the ability to shrink things with his ring, then it's presumably something unique to Hal's experiences, imagination, and will that allow him to do so. Maybe other experienced GLs could do the same, but if they never thought to do it before, why would they in a DTL match?

[XFanTim]

I think that'd be perfectly fine if the comics hadn't come out and said that Xavier didn't have telekinesis later on. Unless the feats are retconned out at some later date, why shouldn't those characters be able to use them? Just because someone doesn't use something too often, doesn't mean they can't use it.
What if it's never explicitly stated that he can't, but he routinely doesn't use it when he obviously should? Like Thor using superspeed once, but basically never fighting at superspeed. To me the logical assumption is that most writers don't consider superspeed one of Thor's powers -- not that they all think he has it but just don't have him using it.

[TheCorpulent1]

How many major comic characters really use super-speed in fights, though? Superman has it, but 9 times out of 10 he doesn't run circles around an opponent and defeat them in ten seconds. He's almost always portrayed fighting at normal speed. It's only people who really specialize in super-speed, like the Flashes, Quicksilver, Speed, etc. who use it regularly in fights. Hell, Monica Rambeau could turn herself into light and, obviously, move at light speed, but she almost always just did it to travel from place to place, not in a fight. She'd turn into other forms of energy and basically throw blasts of... um, herself, I guess, around at normal speed. Part of that, I think, just comes from the fact that it's hard to convey speed on a comic page, but for the purposes of the DTL, we have to assume they're just not using their super-speed for some reason.

So yeah, if a character has the power and doesn't use it often, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. Granted, if they rarely ever use it in the comics, I would expect them to rarely ever use it in the DTL--for example, I don't think I had Thor use super-speed unless he was fighting a super-fast opponent, and even then, his opponent would have to use it first and he'd just speed up to match them (up to just shy of light speed, since he was declared to be fast as the lightning). Similarly, we could just ask that owners use discretion and basically vote against whomever we think is using obscure powers out of line. I don't see a need to consciously ban the use of a power simply because a character only used it a few times.

[Khellendros]

what about the whole being untouchable?i mean its basically a battle of who has the most powerful mage. One person gets strange another gets a more powerful version and so on until they are just touching the tuber bar.I get really narked with mages cos even if they dont have an unbreakable shield people still cant get close to them...Wow. You really seem to be talking out of your ass. Who has done this with their mages during this season? You keeping bringing up these generalized arguments, but don't seem to have any CURRENT examples to point to.



So really there are four questions:

(1) Should someone like Hal be able to use obscure feats like shrinking someone because he used it once or twice over the course of several decades? (I also mentioned teleportation and matter transmutation as specific examples.)

(2) If so, should other GLs (at least other experienced GLs) be able to do the same thing?

(3) Can people like Superman-GL or Daxamite-GL do that stuff?

(4) Are Superman-GL and Daxamite-GL tuber?

1)Yes.
2)No.
3)Not unless it's been shown/implied that they can
4)Same as you, no if number three is no. Yes, if they can be Superman+Hal.

[TheCorpulent1]

He's probably referring to previous seasons, where the mages have been pretty unstoppable unless you had a mage of your own.

[Khellendros]

He's probably referring to previous seasons, where the mages have been pretty unstoppable unless you had a mage of your own.
I'm aware of that, I just want him to admit it. He's obviously not paying a lot of attention to this thread because he didn't answer the last question I asked him. So, I'm going to keep calling him out on it until he answers satisfactorily.

[X]

Sometimes I feel we get way too in-depth over banal things.

[Who?]

Sometimes I feel we get way too in-depth over banal things.

What is this "banal"? Is this some new form of anal that you have found?:huh:

[Nightwing.]

I'm aware of that, I just want him to admit it. He's obviously not paying a lot of attention to this thread because he didn't answer the last question I asked him. So, I'm going to keep calling him out on it until he answers satisfactorily.

Firstly what was the first question you asked me? and no i havent been keeping fully upto date with the thread cos i cant spend all hours of the day sat at my computer.

Secondly i am referring to previous seasons and the way that this season seems to be panning out....all other areas seem to be combatable or atleast easy enough to stand up to with general strength speed etc but when it comes to magic unless you have a mage to draft in there then you cant stop it...which means you are forced to pick up a character you dont really want or need.

which is annoying

[XFanTim]

I sympathize, Nightwing -- I was sick to death of always writing mage-vs-mage fights in previous seasons, yet I drafted Loki just in case I needed him to fight another mage.

But some people are pretty attached to the mages . . . let's see how this season pans out before we take more drastic action against them. I for one will be much more likely than in the past to vote against someone for bull**** uses of mages, especially if their opponent calls them on it. If enough of us resolve not to let mages get away with anything when we're casting our votes, the problem may go away without an outright ban.

(I'm not saying we should vote against someone just for using a mage -- only for abusing one like they've been abused in the past.)

[XFanTim]

How many major comic characters really use super-speed in fights, though? Superman has it, but 9 times out of 10 he doesn't run circles around an opponent and defeat them in ten seconds. He's almost always portrayed fighting at normal speed. It's only people who really specialize in super-speed, like the Flashes, Quicksilver, Speed, etc. who use it regularly in fights. Hell, Monica Rambeau could turn herself into light and, obviously, move at light speed, but she almost always just did it to travel from place to place, not in a fight. She'd turn into other forms of energy and basically throw blasts of... um, herself, I guess, around at normal speed. Part of that, I think, just comes from the fact that it's hard to convey speed on a comic page, but for the purposes of the DTL, we have to assume they're just not using their super-speed for some reason.

So yeah, if a character has the power and doesn't use it often, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. Granted, if they rarely ever use it in the comics, I would expect them to rarely ever use it in the DTL--for example, I don't think I had Thor use super-speed unless he was fighting a super-fast opponent, and even then, his opponent would have to use it first and he'd just speed up to match them (up to just shy of light speed, since he was declared to be fast as the lightning). Similarly, we could just ask that owners use discretion and basically vote against whomever we think is using obscure powers out of line. I don't see a need to consciously ban the use of a power simply because a character only used it a few times.Superman stupidly forgets about his superspeed all the time, but it's still much better established that he has it than it is for Thor.

That said, I see your point. Ultimately, I think we can trust the voters to call people on it if they're taking a character too far afield from how he's portrayed in the comics. If you have Thor use superspeed, the onus is on you to convince the voters that he would use superspeed in that situation.

Regarding GLs I'm fine with a concensus of:
- Any specific GL can do feats he's been shown to do in the comics
- These feats don't necessarily transfer -- e.g., Kyle can't do something just because Hal's done it.
- GLs we haven't seen much of are assumed to have only the more basic GL abilities until proven otherwise.
- Superman+basic GL = legitimate uber. Superman+Hal Jordan = too uber.

[Khellendros]

and the way that this season seems to be panning out....all other areas seem to be combatable or atleast easy enough to stand up to with general strength speed etc but when it comes to magic unless you have a mage to draft in there then you cant stop it...which means you are forced to pick up a character you dont really want or need.I'll ask for the third time: What, SPECIFICALLY has happened in this season to give you the impression that Uber-level mages are the unbeatable characters they were in the past? Pointing to the problems of previous seasons is invalid because things have changed.

[XFanTim]

Maybe Nightwing and others would benefit from some more ideas for how to fight mages without using your own mages.

A couple of specific weaknesses of mages that spring to my mind:
- Most haven't been shown to have Superman or Flash level reaction time, so you can potentially get in an attack before they can respond
- While their shields could stop most head-on attacks, I'm not sure they'd be able to stop:
-- Someone teleporting past the shield -- e.g., port a miniature bomb right into Strange's head -- or port his head clean off his shoulders
-- Attacks that don't have to fly towards someone. E.g., when Iceman wants to freeze water, he doesn't shoot it with a freeze ray, he just wills it to freeze. So there's nothing to block. What's to stop a ruthless version of Iceman from freezing the blood in a mage's brain?

That said, the biggest flaw in those plans is you have to know where the mage is. If Dr. Strange or whoever is really being smart, he'd hide himself with invisibility or illusions until he's ready to take you out. But there are probably ways around that, too.

[TheCorpulent1]

Regarding GLs I'm fine with a concensus of:
- Any specific GL can do feats he's been shown to do in the comics
- These feats don't necessarily transfer -- e.g., Kyle can't do something just because Hal's done it.
- GLs we haven't seen much of are assumed to have only the more basic GL abilities until proven otherwise.
- Superman+basic GL = legitimate uber. Superman+Hal Jordan = too uber.
That seems fair. :up:

[Khellendros]

Maybe Nightwing and others would benefit from some more ideas for how to fight mages without using your own mages.

A couple of specific weaknesses of mages that spring to my mind:
- Most haven't been shown to have Superman or Flash level reaction time, so you can potentially get in an attack before they can respond
- While their shields could stop most head-on attacks, I'm not sure they'd be able to stop:
-- Someone teleporting past the shield -- e.g., port a miniature bomb right into Strange's head -- or port his head clean off his shoulders
-- Attacks that don't have to fly towards someone. E.g., when Iceman wants to freeze water, he doesn't shoot it with a freeze ray, he just wills it to freeze. So there's nothing to block. What's to stop a ruthless version of Iceman from freezing the blood in a mage's brain?

That said, the biggest flaw in those plans is you have to know where the mage is. If Dr. Strange or whoever is really being smart, he'd hide himself with invisibility or illusions until he's ready to take you out. But there are probably ways around that, too.



















Well. I always wondered what it would be like to have an arch nemesis. I mean, one who wasn't completely incompetent, like X.

[Dark Gog]

..Why doesn't Khell's last post seem to register on the main page? Newer replies have for other threads.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Hype is experiencing one of its laggy phases. Weird things tend to happen when the server gets too busy.

[wiegeabo]

It's a Halloween virus! :wow: :ninja: :venom:

[Khellendros]

..Why doesn't Khell's last post seem to register on the main page? Newer replies have for other threads.
Low level reality manipulation.

[X]

Regarding GLs I'm fine with a concensus of:
- Any specific GL can do feats he's been shown to do in the comics
- These feats don't necessarily transfer -- e.g., Kyle can't do something just because Hal's done it.
- GLs we haven't seen much of are assumed to have only the more basic GL abilities until proven otherwise.
- Superman+basic GL = legitimate uber. Superman+Hal Jordan = too uber.

Wait, so are we assuming that GL Superman is on par with Hal Jordan as a ring wielder? Because that's a massive assumption.

I'd be surprised if Superman was as good as Kilwog or Gardner. He's got massive willpower on par with any GL, yes, but not the creativity or formability's of Kyle or other elite Green Lanterns.

[X]

I'm going to stick with my current line-up.

You, Wieg?

Let me know so I can start writing.

[wiegeabo]

Yeah, I think so.

[X]

Cool.

I'm going to start writing later tonight then, probably.

Ah suggest you do the same. ;)

[XFanTim]

Wait, so are we assuming that GL Superman is on par with Hal Jordan as a ring wielder? Because that's a massive assumption.No, we're not assuming that. What we're saying is:
(1) if he's on par with Hal Jordan, he should be tuber
whereas
(2) if he's on par with a less skilled GL, he'd be uber.

I haven't read anything with Superman-GL or the Daxamite-GL -- so I don't know where they rank. From what you're saying about Supes, and the fact that the Daxamite is fairly green (pun intended), I think they'd probably both be legit ubers.

[X]

Sodam Yat, the Daxamite GL, JUST got his ring.

He's a complete rookie. Good with it, but a rookie.

[XFanTim]

He's definitely legit, then.

[X]

I think I'm going to breakdown and go into tears rather than debate anymore. :(

[XFanTim]

Huh? Aren't I agreeing with you?

[XFanTim]

Need some more info on Kaboom's team before I post my lineup. He's got:
Majestic
Nate Grey
Blade
Nocturne
Elijah Snow
All I know about Elijah Snow is that he can produce extreme cold (so says wikipedia). Are we talking Iceman like ice constructs, or just freezing people. Also, does he have ordinary human vulnerabilities?

Blade I know mostly from before he was bitten by Morbius. I.e., he was a skilled fighter with no superhuman powers except immunity to vampire bites and an ability to detect the supernatural. Are his new powers just enhanced physical stats and regeneration? How strong is he? How durable? How fast does he heal?

Is this Shaman Nate Grey, or what?

[X]

I've read all of Planetary (Snow's series) and I never saw him make a construct.

He can drop the temperature to extremely low levels, though. Freeze people, freeze the ice in peoples brains, freeze them then break them... He's ruthless like that.

Besides that he's a normal human.

And yes, Kaboom writes him as Shaman I believe.

[wiegeabo]

I could have sworn Shaman Nate was tuber. But I'm probably thinking of something else.

[X]

Shaman Nate wasn't ever ruled too uber...

He's been in regular use for a long time.

[Nightwing.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/Randomtask124124/Pics/DC/RacerX-MM07-p13.jpg

something cool ive just noticed....MM doesnt have his fear of fire anymore.also in the same comic it shows him moving at incredible speed and using his heat vision to cause an explosion no more than 6 feet away

[Nightwing.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/Randomtask124124/Pics/DC/MartianManhunter0819.jpg

and can anyone explain to me...is MM using TK?i thought i saw on a front cover of his, he had his hands up stoping bullets in midair...is this a new skill hes aquired?

[X]

J'onn hasn't had a weakness to normal fire in a long time...

[The Leaguer]

I've never seen him use telekinesis. As for the fire thing, ever since the Fernus story, Martian Manhunter has only been weak to fire with a "negative" emotional attachment, like the fire of an arsonist or something.

[X]

Leaguer nailed it.

And I really love J'onn's new penis head look. It's just... great.

[Khellendros]

I could have sworn Shaman Nate was tuber. But I'm probably thinking of something else.
I can not imagine why he'd be tuber.