Worst moments in movies

[Zev]

I was just thinking... what moments made you cringe, wince, sigh, and vomit in disgust? In the format of an uber-inventive top ten list...

10. Green Goblin Attacks Macy Gray, Spider-Man

Okay, Macy Gray had a cameo, nothing too painful... Then Green Goblin shows up. In an all-too-static faceplate which seems designed for ease of conversion to Halloween costumes and a green armor suit, it's amazing that people didn't laugh out loud at the 'menace', especially when he proves his villain-osity to the world by (gasp! horror!) slashing a passing balloon float. Luckily, veteran heavy Willem Dafoe is behind the mask to keep the performance afloat and the movie is fast-paced enough for us to disregard the costume for the most part. Still, who here can truly say we didn't turn our heads slightly when that... THING graced the silver screen?

9. The Artist Formerly Known As Prince, Batman

Picture the scene. Joker is throwing a combination parade/mass execution. Batman is speeding towards him in the Batwing. A ruckus is going to start. What better song to hype us up for this grand confrontation then... Prince? Yes, that's right, Joker throws money around, breakdances under giant balloon floats filled with poison gas, and generally makes an ass of himself. It's a relief when Batman finally shows up and strafes the Clown Prince of Crime, even if he does miss like a Stormtrooper.

8. "...The same thing that happens to everything else," X-Men

In an otherwise stellar movie which has recently been unfairly overshadowed by its sequel, one line makes the entire case against it. Future Catwoman (In Name Only) Halle Berry, wearing a bad wig and digitally-inserted white eyes (you can see her pupils behind them and everything), blows Toad away. As he hangs on by his unnaturally-long tongue, Storm pauses to utter a quip before destroying him with lightning. Unfortunately, it turns out to be this clunker. "Do you know what happens to a toad when it's hit by lightning?" etc. Wolverine can be forgiven for stabbing her through the chest in the next scene.

7. Superman Goes Back To The Future, Superman

Having written themselves into a corner with Lois Lane's death, Superman decides to go back in time to save her. A ludricious decision, of course, because why not go back in time every time you fail? But, this is Lois. So, he's going back in time. Not by attaining lightspeed by circling around the sun, that's been done. Not by using one of his Deus Ex Machina Krypton Krystals, like in Superman 2 (and 4, but that's another story). No, he flies around the Earth's equator until the Earth orbits backwards, which somehow CAUSES TIME TO REVERSE! I'm in wonder how this plot twist wasn't laughed out of theaters. Of course, the sequel featured the God-like Clark Kent laying down the law to a bully, so... whatever.

6. Sewer Meditation, Punisher '89

As skull-less (literally, the famous insignia is nowhere to be found. Maybe it's in the parking lot.) Dolph Lundgren shares his marble-mouthed mumblings on God and the nature of vengeance, the camera tracks through his sewer lair (rented from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, perhaps?) and... OH GOD, MY EYES! We get a nice, long shot of his grimy, bare ass. Why, Marvel, WHY?

5. Various/Hulk

In this case, it's not the big things you find a problem with, it's numerous little things. Like how Bruce Banner stares longingly at a picture of him and his ex, which then starts moving, transitioning us into a conversation about a dream Betty Ross had, a dream we see. A dream sequence within a flashback. Then Talbot dies when he fires an RPG into the Hulk. Said grenade then bounces off the Jade Goliath and blows up Talbot, who expires in the literal cinematic equivilent of a splash page. Or when Nick Nolte, in a fit of literal scenery chewing, becomes the Absorbing Dad of electricity and zaps Hulk around, before getting turned into a giant jellyfish brain and nuked. That was the most unkindest cut of all.

4. Vault Death-Trap, Batman Forever

Picture it. Tommy Lee Jones, acting like a total goon, has imprisoned Val Kilmer's Batman, along with a 'comically' panicking bank guard, in a bank vault hanging from his helicopter. As Two-Face rants "For your dying pleasure, the vault is being filled with the same acid that made us the way we are today!", Batman MacGuyvers the bank guard's hearing aid into a safe-cracking tool and uses his Bat-grapple to deposit (no pun intended) the vault back into the hole in the wall. Then CGI Batman hangs onto to the helicopter for a while before it crashes into the Statue of Liberty. The next scene, in which a fully-costumed Batman, sitting IN BROAD DAYLIGHT in a courtroom, fails to save now-white attorney Harvey Dent from a mobster on trial, who somehow has acid, fails to even contend with the idiocy of this Bond-wannabe 'action' sequence.

Did I mention Two-Face's henchman have machine guns outlined with bright neon?

3. Oh, Batman, You're So Funny, Batman & Robin

Having disposed of cheesy villainess Poison Ivy, as played by only-bright-spot-in-the-film Uma Thurman, Alicia Silverstone turns to Batman and is greeted "Batgirl? That's not very PC. How about Batwoman or Batperson?" WTF? This is the Dark Knight of Gotham? My bunny slippers wouldn't be scared of anyone who makes a quip like that. For anyone who still had hope after watching a tight close-up of the Bat-Butt, which acted as a certain "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here", and endured Arnold's Kindergarden Cop readings of Mr. Freeze's various out-of-character, low-temperature-themed zingers, this should clue them in that the elevator is on the sixth level of hell and going down fast.

2. Elektra Trains, Daredevil

After given the dubious pleasure of Daredevil murkily fighting his way through a bar full of strobe lights and thugs, then killing a rapist to whom he lost in court (our favorite attorney was prosecuting for some reason), and finally leaving his logo in lighter fluid for a slumming Joey Pants to find, we get the end result of master thespians Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner doing their impression of a bad romcom for most of the movie. Elektra is on a warpath and no one's going to stop her! So, what's the first thing she does? Why, dress up in the standard anti-hero black leather (complete with not-protective-offered-what-so-ever cut-off top), turn on some nu-metal, and jump around slashing sandbags with ninja sais. And just when we think it can't get any worse, a sandbag custom-fitted with a caricature of Daredevil drawn in red crayon lowers. Elektra proves how much of a badass she is by throwing a sai through it. Unfortunately, people, unlike sandbags, can dodge, intercept, and otherwise render mute thrown projectiles and then use them against their owner, as Elektra learns when a wildly-mugging Colin Farrell impales her a few minutes later. Daredevil's unbelievable ability to defeat both Bullseye and Kingpin after being critically wounded can't hold a candle to the slap in the face of the comics that is Movie!Elektra.

1. Nuclear Man, Superman 4: The Quest For Peace

You can find a lot wrong with the fourth and final Superman movie. It's hamfisted anti-nuke message, the replacement of the bumbling but lovable Otis with Jon Cryer as a 'hip' young rocker, the lousy special effects... but none moreso then Nuclear Man, as essayed by Mark Pillow (!). From his 'birth', when a giant net full of nuclear warheads is thrown into the sun by Supes and he grows from fetus to fully clothed man (!!) by virtue of bad animation, to his voice, an electronically roughened version of Gene Hackman's (even though he's supposed to be a clone of Clark Kent), nothing about Superman's mirror image proved him fit to "Kneel before Zod!" or even ski with Richard Pryor. But perhaps the fatal flaw in the character was his fatal flaw... The villain, put in the film to show us the dangers of nuclear science, is SOLAR POWERED! What's more, if not in direct sunlight, he collapses, comatose!!!

Sometimes I don't know what keeps Gene Hackman coming back.

Honorable Mentions: Parking Lot Explosion, The Punisher. Rocketeer Penguins, Batman Returns. Richard Pryor, Superman 3.

[tamron]

No Howard the Duck? No Fantastic Four?
No Captain America? No Steel? Your list is sorely lacking. And for the record, in Lundgren's Punisher the skull was on the handle of his knives. Frank left them as calling cards.

[Dr. Manhatten]

There were worse scenes in Daredevil IMO, although that stupid Evanescense song that plays during her training doesn't help the scene's cause

[pixen]

that is the best scene in the movie.... they had to slab resused DD bits

[Joker]

I liked when Green Goblin attacked Macy Gray...I just wish he would have gotten the job done :mad:

[DarkKnight88]

The worst moment in comic book movie is actually WATCHING "Batman & Robin"!

[Zev]

Originally posted by tamron
No Howard the Duck? No Fantastic Four?
No Captain America? No Steel? Your list is sorely lacking. And for the record, in Lundgren's Punisher the skull was on the handle of his knives. Frank left them as calling cards.

I haven't seen Howard the Duck, Fantastic Four (although I have it burned on a CD-R somewhere), or Captain America.

3. How come when we do it, it's obscure, but when they do it, it's funny?, Steel

I don't remember much of Steel. I think Shaq was a baseketball player turned actor who played a weapons designer turned superhero. And I remember at the end he had to make a free-throw or something. Which is funny, because in real life (giggle), SHAQ ISN'T VERY GOOD AT MAKING FREE THROWS! Or maybe it was the other way around. I don't know.

Stupid movie.

2. The Wilheim Scream, Howard the Duck

I've only seen this online, but apparently there's a scene where Howard dive-bombs a group of duck hunters in an airplane. One of the unlucky humans does the distinctive Wilheim scream (the high-pitched girly-girl shriek that Stormtrooper made when he fell off the ledge on the Death Star, remember?). That this classic sound effect is sullied by being in such a film as Howard the Duck is near sacrilege.

1. I've got to hand it to you, Captain America

Captain America is tied to a rocket that's about to nuke Washington. As the Red Skull gloats, the Sentinel of Liberty says "Come over here, I want to tell you something." Now, anyone who isn't an only child can tell you the appropriate response is "I can hear you fine from over here," but the master villain walks over to Cappy and gets his hand grabbed. So, what does the nemesis of freedom do? Instead of hacking his enemy's arm off, HE CHOPS HIS OWN OFF! BRILLIANT! I wouldn't trust this guy to be a grip on Triumph Of The Wills if I was Adolf.

[Frank Manhattan]

Punisher 2004 phony fire hydrant

[WarBlade]

1.) Barbarella in the Orgasmatron (Barbarella). Damn Ogasmatron was opaque. :(

2.) Wolverine returns to the mansion (X-Men 2). Then we are subjected to a lengthy scene of character reintroductions that looks like a soap opera.

3.) Last two Batman films. So much crap, it would take too long to go over it.

4.) Captain America. Read above.

5.) Xavier and Woverine (X-Men).
"What's a Magneto?"
"A very powerful mutant."
OMG, people moan about the lightning toad thing and personally I find that to be considerably more acceptable than the line I just quoted. :eek:

[Frank Manhattan]

the line is

"A very powerful mutant..."

[The PhantaZm]

Originally posted by Frank Manhattan
the line is

"A very powerful mutant..."

Yeah, theres nothing bad about that line.

If this thread is about worst lines in a comic book movie then I might as well just copy and paste the entire spiderman script.

Worst moments would be:

Nick Noltes retarded rant in the Hulk. This moment was uncomfortable and extremely awkward. I still have no idea what he was ranting about and why nor do I care. (incase some hulk movie fan was about to explain it to me.

The second worst would be the hulk, absorbing man fight.

The third worst would be the death of Frank Castles family.

The fourth is the death of Howard Saint followed by the ultra-cheesy skull signal.

[Hulkzilla]

The ENTIRE Howard the Duck movie

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by The Joker
I liked when Green Goblin attacked Macy Gray...I just wish he would have gotten the job done :mad:

that makes 2 of us

[eris]

killer poodle- hulk

[Nightwing: Endgame]

yea the killer poodle was retarted..

[spider-jide]

batman and robin made the adam west show look like a masterpiece.

[spide-ed]

the see-saw fight in daredevil. worst fight scene ive ever seen.

[Revelation]

I second the seesaw scene.

[Zev]

The See-Saw Scene, Daredevil

Did you act like you did when you were a horny, hormonally-motivated teenager? No. Well, then you must not be Ben Affleck's Matt Murdock. Elektra's introduction in the comics, in which an immature Matt shows off to her for a look at breasts (that's conjunture), is stuffed through the Plot-O-Matic, giving us a...

1. Meet Cute
A. With Funny Sidekick
Drinking Something That Would Not Normally Be Drunk

2. Witty Banter
A. Involving misunderstanding over blindness.
B. Cliched Line 998. "I didn't get your name." "I didn't give it."

3. Fight Scene

Serious Drag-Down Final Battle? No.

Wise-Cracking "Look What A Badass I Am" Disposal Of Henchmen? No.

Playful, Flirty Fight With No Boo-Boos? Yes.

Should make people think of how much better off they would be watching a movie with...

Jet Li? No.

Bruce Lee? No.

Jackie Chan? Yes


I'm surprised he doesn't just get into his car and drive her to see a movie. It would be about as inconspicous.


The A-S-S, Batman & Robin

At last, a new Batman movie is upon us. Sure, Batman Forever was a heaping pile of ^_^^_^^_^^_^, but now Akiva Goldsman, master writer behind Lost In Space, and Joel Schumacher, the Gay Filmmaker Yang to Bryan Sinker's Ying (QUOTE: "I know dragging homosexuals into the street and beating them is WRONG, but if we did it, Batman & Robin wouldn't have been made." -David Duke) have hit their stride. And George Clooney, he's a good actor! I mean, SURE Alicia Silverstone and Arnold Schwarzenegger are expected to turn in dramatic performances, but...

Oh wait, did we just get a close-up of Batman's ass? Jesus Christ, let's go get a refund before it's too late.

Nothing, Hellboy

No, really, there isn't a single bad moment in Hellboy. It's perfect. Did you see the part where Kronen did the thing? Awesome.

[WarBlade]

Originally posted by Frank Manhattan
the line is

"A very powerful mutant..."

D'oh! "powerful" :p

Ok, but the use of the word "very" is what kills the scene for me. It reminds me of the scene in FOTR where Ian Holm is talking to the kids about the trolls and the kids all rear back in horror. Xavier's line could easily have been, "Well children, Magneto is a very powerful mutant," (whereupon you watch the group all shrink away in fear) and it would have increased the absurdity of the statement by not a whole lot.

IMO.

I just hate that line. It could have been so much better.

*dreams*
"A mutant like you and I."

*sigh* :(

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Revelation
I second the seesaw scene.

Oh golly gosh, just imagine an entire 2 hours of fights like/worse than that coming up in Elektra.
Someone please pass me the Sleeping pills and the Whiskey.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
The See-Saw Scene, Daredevil

Did you act like you did when you were a horny, hormonally-motivated teenager? No. Well, then you must not be Ben Affleck's Matt Murdock. Elektra's introduction in the comics, in which an immature Matt shows off to her for a look at breasts (that's conjunture), is stuffed through the Plot-O-Matic, giving us a...

1. Meet Cute
A. With Funny Sidekick
Drinking Something That Would Not Normally Be Drunk

2. Witty Banter
A. Involving misunderstanding over blindness.
B. Cliched Line 998. "I didn't get your name." "I didn't give it."

3. Fight Scene

Serious Drag-Down Final Battle? No.

Wise-Cracking "Look What A Badass I Am" Disposal Of Henchmen? No.

Playful, Flirty Fight With No Boo-Boos? Yes.

Should make people think of how much better off they would be watching a movie with...

Jet Li? No.

Bruce Lee? No.

Jackie Chan? Yes


I'm surprised he doesn't just get into his car and drive her to see a movie. It would be about as inconspicous.

Yes, because we all know that is the formulaic way people normaly meet in films. A line so cliche that I have never heard it used in a movie or book before? :rolleyes:

Almost as inconspicous as Matt telling her about his powers like he does in the comics. Your ignorance is showing again.

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Yes, because we all know that is the formulaic way people normaly meet in films. A line so cliche that I have never heard it used in a movie or book before? :rolleyes:

Almost as inconspicous as Matt telling her about his powers like he does in the comics. Your ignorance is showing again.

I really love it when you flout your supposed intellectual superiority round here Quentin, it turns me on. ;)

[Quentin Black]

Well, if someone says that something is unfaithful because this character was being inconspicous when his original comic counterpart was even more inconspicous, it says something about the speaker.

[Revelation]

Originally posted by spide-ed
Oh golly gosh, just imagine an entire 2 hours of fights like/worse than that coming up in Elektra.
Someone please pass me the Sleeping pills and the Whiskey.

Better yet, just hit me over the head with the whiskey bottle. Or the director. Yes, hit the director.

I'm sure I'm the only one, but I had issue with the fireside love scene. To me, it was out of place and just cheesy, unneccessary, and rather stupid. Just another one of the potholes in this movie that didn't make it flow right for me.

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Revelation
Better yet, just hit me over the head with the whiskey bottle. Or the director. Yes, hit the director.

I'm sure I'm the only one, but I had issue with the fireside love scene. To me, it was out of place and just cheesy, unneccessary, and rather stupid. Just another one of the potholes in this movie that didn't make it flow right for me.

the fireside sex scene looked like it was straight out of Baywatch.

[Mastermold]

One stands in my head above all else...

That $#%! scene where Spacker Dave and Mr.Bumpo are ballroom dancing during the Punisher/Russian fight. I would really like to know what the director was thinking.

[Revelation]

Originally posted by spide-ed
the fireside sex scene looked like it was straight out of Baywatch.

Come to think of it, it did.

I will mention again the one that stands out the most in my mind out of all recent comic movies. Nick Nolte's crazy rant at the end of Hulk. I just sat there thinking "something very wrong just happened here". One of my friends was like "what the heck was that". I'm still not sure what it was.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Zev
Did you act like you did when you were a horny, hormonally-motivated teenager? No. Well, then you must not be Ben Affleck's Matt Murdock. Elektra's introduction in the comics, in which an immature Matt shows off to her for a look at breasts (that's conjunture)

I thought we were over this, Quentin. You know, when I posted that list of flaws in the movie and you never responded?

Now, read the above quote. Going by your beloved Man Without Fear, this is before Matt's friend, the little girl, has been kidnapped by pornographers (and later Lars) motivating him into becoming a superhero. Therefore, although he is keeping his powers hidden for the most part, he's letting on to a few people he thinks are trustworthy (Foggy, etc.). When he grows up and becomes a superhero, obviously he acts differently. He probably doesn't flaunt his truth-telling ability as much. He plays up his 'blindness', using it as the perfect cover for a superhero. After all, who would suspect a blind man of being an acrobatic vigilante?

And yes, I do think the meeting was formulaic. Boy wants to get close to girl, who is unreceptive, but is eventually won over by charms/sense of humor/martial arts skills.

But at least he didn't call her Olive Oil.:)

[nemo7]

:)
Wow. Lots of wonderfully putrid moments encapsulated on this stroll down memory lane! So many to choose from, but I'd have to go with the playground scene in DAREDEVIL. The entire HULK movie ranks a close second, followed by BATMAN & ROBIN. (Direct-to-video tripe is its own ball of wax).

[spide-ed]

The hulk tank scene was fantastic though.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
I thought we were over this, Quentin. You know, when I posted that list of flaws in the movie and you never responded?

Now, read the above quote. Going by your beloved Man Without Fear, this is before Matt's friend, the little girl, has been kidnapped by pornographers (and later Lars) motivating him into becoming a superhero. Therefore, although he is keeping his powers hidden for the most part, he's letting on to a few people he thinks are trustworthy (Foggy, etc.). When he grows up and becomes a superhero, obviously he acts differently. He probably doesn't flaunt his truth-telling ability as much. He plays up his 'blindness', using it as the perfect cover for a superhero. After all, who would suspect a blind man of being an acrobatic vigilante?

And yes, I do think the meeting was formulaic. Boy wants to get close to girl, who is unreceptive, but is eventually won over by charms/sense of humor/martial arts skills.

But at least he didn't call her Olive Oil.:)

Maybe your memory is acting up, I did respond and most of what you said was bull and was contradicted by the comics.

As for your comic knowledge it's getting increasingly weak. Matt never let on to Foggy about his powers voluntarily. I don't care for the age difference it is still faithful to the comics and shows when you want something you'd take a chance and do anything for it. Matt in the movie is still only just starting out and it is still a faithful scene. If you knew anything about the comics you would know Matt has never been good at keeping his secret when it comes to getting a girl. Anyway since when does a blindman being able to do martial arts immediately make him, in elektra's eyes, a superpowered vigilante by the name of DD? It is still a huge assumption to make.

Wow, then every meeting in the history of films is pretty formulaic. I mean, every one has martial arts in it doesn't it? Wow, I guess guys should not have charm or a sense of humour nowadays if they want to get their girl. Tell me, what movie is the 'cliche' line from? :rolleyes:

[Zev]

Brom Van Brunt: We haven't heard your name yet, friend.
Ichabod Crane: I have not yet said it.

Sleepy Hollow, 1999. FOUR YEARS before Daredevil.

You're the one whose comics knowledge is weak. Foggy repeatedly thought something was 'off' about Matt until he finally caught him red-handed (so to speak). Then Matt invented Mike Murdock and the rest is history.

So, answer me this question.

Lead, who is hiding superpowers, needs to meet female lead. How should they meet?

A. Over the Internet.
B. At a party.
C. With a kung-fu fight! Pow! Whap!
D. Anything but C.

If you answered C, congratulations! You're ready to write an awful comic book movie. Report in immediately for assignment as one of the 32 writers working on Catwoman 2: The ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^ Is Back.

[Quentin Black]

He always suspected something but he never pressed it and nothing got confirmed until towards the end of volume one. He never caught Matt and Mike Murdock was invented as a result Karen and Foggy accidentally stumbling over Spidey's letter to Matt early on, something which got disproved early on. Matt never let on to Foggy voluntarily at any point, instead he told all his girls so my original point still stands and the movie was totally in character.

Gee, the fact that is was similar to one not very crucial line in one movie, five years ago makes it sooo cliche. God, lines should never be used once they appear in one film and all those thousands of films which have used similar lines to movies before are all just sooo cliche. :rolleyes: Good one pretender.

[Isildur´s Heir]

The worst scene in a comic book is in X-Men, Wolverine Vs Sabretooth.

A fight that everyone wanted to see, everyone was so much hyped to see the two rivals fight, a violent and gritty fight....and all we had was one of the worst fights in the comic book movie.
I don´t remember being so much dissapointed :(

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
He always suspected something but he never pressed it and nothing got confirmed until towards the end of volume one. He never caught Matt and Mike Murdock was invented as a result Karen and Foggy accidentally stumbling over Spidey's letter to Matt early on, something which got disproved early on. Matt never let on to Foggy voluntarily at any point, instead he told all his girls so my original point still stands and the movie was totally in character.

Gee, the fact that is was similar to one not very crucial line in one movie, five years ago makes it sooo cliche. God, lines should never be used once they appear in one film and all those thousands of films which have used similar lines to movies before are all just sooo cliche. :rolleyes: Good one pretender.

Yes, like I said, Foggy thought something was up. He did know about and trust Matt's truth sense, or is that another of the movie's deviations from the comic?

It's more than one movie, it's been in a lot of movies and is therefore a cliche, just like one guy starting to slowly clap at the end of a speech and then everyone clapping.

Why don't you go watch Superman for a good example of a superhero/leading lady meeting? Spider-Man, which had the guts to not end with a happy reconciliation and big kiss (unlike Daredevil, where, judging from Matt's reaction to the survival of his ex who stabbed him, he is quite ready to hop back into bed once she gets done with her spin-off). Batman Returns. At first, Batman/Bruce Wayne is uninterested in Selina Kyle (as Batman, he walks away from her without a second look), but falls in love with her when she becomes Catwoman? Is it because she's more confident or because she's now a freak like him? Even X-Men has Bobby being friendly with Rogue when she's the 'new kid at school' before he jams his tongue down her throat.

By the way, where is the indictation that the Matt/Elektra romance in the movie is anything but pure lust? He is first interested in her because of her appearance/smell, remains only interested in her appearance (the dress at the party scene, the 'rain' scene), and we see no sign of them falling in love or even getting to know each other. It's basically a prolonged one-night stand, not the soulmates of the comics.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
He always suspected something but he never pressed it and nothing got confirmed until towards the end of volume one. He never caught Matt and Mike Murdock was invented as a result Karen and Foggy accidentally stumbling over Spidey's letter to Matt early on, something which got disproved early on. Matt never let on to Foggy voluntarily at any point, instead he told all his girls so my original point still stands and the movie was totally in character.

Gee, the fact that is was similar to one not very crucial line in one movie, five years ago makes it sooo cliche. God, lines should never be used once they appear in one film and all those thousands of films which have used similar lines to movies before are all just sooo cliche. :rolleyes: Good one pretender.

Yes, like I said, Foggy thought something was up. He did know about and trust Matt's truth sense, or is that another of the movie's deviations from the comic?

And Wolverine Vs. Sabertooth was pretty good for a PG-13 movie. If there was a Wolverine solo movie, I'd expect it to be R and have more gore then Kill Bill.

It's more than one movie, it's been in a lot of movies and is therefore a cliche, just like one guy starting to slowly clap at the end of a speech and then everyone clapping.

Why don't you go watch Superman for a good example of a superhero/leading lady meeting? Spider-Man, which had the guts to not end with a happy reconciliation and big kiss (unlike Daredevil, where, judging from Matt's reaction to the survival of his ex who stabbed him, he is quite ready to hop back into bed once she gets done with her spin-off). Batman Returns. At first, Batman/Bruce Wayne is uninterested in Selina Kyle (as Batman, he walks away from her without a second look), but falls in love with her when she becomes Catwoman? Is it because she's more confident or because she's now a freak like him? Even X-Men has Bobby being friendly with Rogue when she's the 'new kid at school' before he jams his tongue down her throat.

By the way, where is the indictation that the Matt/Elektra romance in the movie is anything but pure lust? He is first interested in her because of her appearance/smell, remains only interested in her appearance (the dress at the party scene, the 'rain' scene), and we see no sign of them falling in love or even getting to know each other. It's basically a prolonged one-night stand, not the soulmates of the comics.

[Quentin Black]

However your statement about Matt "letting on to a few people he thinks are trustworthy (Foggy, etc.)" is bull since Matt never trusted Foggy with the info voluntarily until very late in the comics. However Matt has always used that info when it comes to women.

As for that line I have never heard of or remembered it once in a film and I have seen Sleepy Hollow. It isn't a cliche as it isn't a famous or overused plot device or line.

Sorry, did you imagine a reconciliation at the end? Did they meet up and was it all smiles? No, Matt smiled as he knew Elektra was out there and he had his faith restored. Just like Matt rarely meets up with Elektra after her death. You could say anything was cliche. Nerd who gets the girl...so original :rolleyes:

It starts off as lust but as soon as they start fighting they get in to a rythm and have great chemistry, largely thanks to the great casting and some great lines that they share, like the line taken from Tom Sullivan's personal experience. They don't need to hang around and chat about their lives as the connection is there, just like the comics. However they do chat, they do have their problems and they do have sex...just like any modern relationship.

[hubza]

Bad comic movie moment:

A dead Iggy Pop surrounded by flowers in The Crow City of Angels.

[nemo7]

Isuldir's Heir-
Love the bouncing chick! :)
Can you make Power Girl or NecroMantra do that?

[mister_satan666]

i still dont get the HULK comments

u guys hated some of the coolest parts

Nolte's rant was great and made perfect sense and fit his character and the movie,

everything about that movie made perfect sense

anyway..worst scene in a comin movie must be the whole New Yorkers defending Spider-man at the end

[Mastermold]

Yeah, I thought Nolte's rant at the end of Hulk was great. I guess its anti-military tone could have turned a lot of people off in this day and age, but it is just a movie.

[Sundry]

I'd replace #10 with the scene where the Green Goblin looks like he's about to sexually assault Aunt May. That was just badly shot. The one where he gets clobbered by vegetables isn't much better.

Anything Rasputin did/said in Hellboy is game, especially the part where he's literally stamping his feet because Hellboy refuses to be evil. D'oh!

Batman and Robin is the mother lode. Ice skates?

[Isildur´s Heir]

Originally posted by nemo7
Isuldir's Heir-
Love the bouncing chick! :)
Can you make Power Girl or NecroMantra do that?

Thanks....and, sure, as long as you give me the clip where that happens

[Quentin Black]

Nick Nolte was one of the things that ruined the Hulk for me...and how was the absorbing dad fight one of the coolest parts!?!

However I'm afraid the movie with the most worst parts is Spidey, even though I do prefer the movie to Hulk. Bouncing on balloons, Macy Gray, almost any scene with Green Goblin (but especially when he got clobbered with veg), bouncing on some muggers, bouncing from rooftop to rooftop without his costume.

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Quentin Black


However I'm afraid the movie with the most worst parts is Spidey, even though I do prefer the movie to Hulk. Bouncing on balloons, Macy Gray, almost any scene with Green Goblin (but especially when he got clobbered with veg), bouncing on some muggers, bouncing from rooftop to rooftop without his costume.

Matt murdock minus any superpowers managing to jump miraculous gaps , rooftop to rooftop.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by spide-ed
Matt murdock minus any superpowers managing to jump miraculous gaps , rooftop to rooftop.

Since when did he not have superpowers?

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Since when did he not have superpowers?

Daredevil possesses the normal human strength of a man his age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. Daredevil's five sense are heightened to beyond that of even superhumanly enhanced sense. Although Murdock is blind, he can "see" by means of his "radar sense", which acts not unlike sonar. Daredevil is an Olympic level athlete and gymnast, possessing extraordinary agility, endurance, skill and balance. Daredevil's unique fighting style (a blend of ninjitsu, judo and American-style boxing) makes effective use of his Billy Club, which is used as both a baton and grappling hook.


He has gmnastic ability and sensory powers but no pyhsical powers. Hence him being able to jump down a building 50 feet onto cleaning platform would simply break his legs. Hell, even spidey couldnt do that, he would have to break his fall by shooting a web up.

[Quentin Black]

Yada yada yada, despite the text that everyone copies and pastes from marvel thinking they know all about the character he does it all the time in the in the comics, be it with Frank Miller or Alex Maleev.

[Zev]

I gotta go with Quentin on this one. Within reason (WITHIN REASON!) Daredevil can do all that stuff because of his superpowers and ninja training. Just like a cat can jump very high, balance very well, and land without hardly making a sound or impact, so Daredevil can contort his body.

However, that cleaning platform scene was balls compared to Peter Parker leaping from building to building. The former felt like a stunt show (not like someone actively patrolling an area), the latter felt like someone discovering he suddenly had superpowers and enjoying him. And while both Rasputin throwing a fit over Hellboy's goodness and the post-9/11 obligatory display of togetherness in Spider-Man were both cheesy, they were far over-shadowed by the good parts of their respective movies.

However, since Superman and Batman are in there too, that doesn't give them an exemption.

You're supposed to be evil, silly!, Hellboy

The movie has been perfect so far. The casting spot-on, the villains badass, the monsters creative, the action stupendous, etc. Then comes the climax. From out of nowhere, Rasputin has a block of marble for Hellboy to turn into a Hellmouth (sorry). Okay, moving on. Then Hellboy decides to blow up the world for Liz. Representing the con side of this argument is Agent Myers, who is somehow able to slip out of his manacles and show Hellboy how evil sending the world to hell in a handbasket would be by burning a scar in his hand with a rosary. He and Rasputin argue about the nature of choice and evil and ^_^^_^^_^^_^ in some Genuine Bad Dialogue that makes one long for the presense of a veteran hambone like Donald Pleasance to give the instipid lines some goddamn FEELING! Thankfully, it's over soon and Hellboy is fighting Yug-Soggoth or something. Whew, that was close. We're consider that the one mar that makes your beauty all the more perfect, Hellboy. Don't ever change.

"You mess with one of us, you mess with all of us!", Spider-Man

Why, oh god, why did they put this in? As if not putting the Twin Towers teaser on the DVD wasn't enough, a cringe-worthy scene where New Yorkers are suddenly equipped with vegetables and various groceries to pelt Green Goblin with is shoved into Spider-Man's masterpiece by the archfiend Hamfist, the man with pork for a hand! I'm serious, this scene is so hamfisted Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to be punched by it. Gobby is probably glad he didn't live through the following badass fight scene with Spidey. Could you imagine the jailhouse conversation?

Lex Luthor: So then, Superman happened to find a box full of popsicles with lead sticks and ate them all and made a popsicle stick house around the chunk of Kryptonite.

Riddler: Wow, really? Batman just anticipated that I was going to be at the Policeman's Ball from the half-eaten fish and couplet written in Arabaic I left on the underside of the teddy bear I pawned in Suicide Slums.

Green Goblin: Isn't that in Metropolis?

Riddler: Like I said, World's Greatest Detective. So, how'd you get foiled?

Green Goblin: I don't like to talk about it.

Riddler: C'mon, it's tradition. You know everytime Bullseye's in here, he tells us how he was captured.

Bullseye: S'true. He dodged two handfuls of glass shards by SOMERSAULTING BACKWARDS! WTF, man?

Green Goblin: Well, I was (cough)
defeated by the good will of the peoples of New York.

Lex Luthor: What?

Green Goblin: I was defeated by the good will of the peoples of New York.

Bullseye: No ^_^^_^^_^^_^? Like in Ghostbusters 2?

Green Goblin: Yes. They had cantaloupes. And french bread!

Penguin: Why is there always someone with rotten vegetables?


I am a lonely crusader, obsessed with the pursuit of... hey, pussy!, Daredevil

You know, it's easy to be a superhero AND have a personal life. All you have to do is ignore calls for help when you have a chance of sex. This is especially in character when you're so obsessed you're willing to kill people in cold blood, gloating over them while doing so. What follows makes Skinemax sex scenes stand up in pride. In front of a fireplace, Matt Murdock, now absense all the welts and bruises the life of a superhero gives you, has sex with Elektra, making sure we don't see any of the T&A that would make one want to watch a sex scene in the first place. The words of one immortal test screener to an (eventually cut) sex scene in The Fast And The Furious comes to mind. "If I can't see her breasts, what's the point?" What's the point indeed? Daredevil's name is further sullied and for what? Ben Affleck getting the chance to dry-hump a bad actress? Why didn't he just wait till he went home to J-Lo? (the previous was no critism on the performace of Jennifer Garner, merely an assessment on her role in said movie).

One does wonder if he gave her a 'Greek Ninja'. And if she gave him a "Blind Vigilante". And if he in return gave her a "Man With The Proportionate Strength And Agility Of A Spider".

[Revelation]

I surprised no one has mentioned anything from Spawn on this thread.

[Quentin Black]

That's because Spawn isn't Marvel.

On a side note is it me or is Zev really either incomprehensible or just really slow?

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
That's because Spawn isn't Marvel.

On a side note is it me or is Zev really either incomprehensible or just really slow?

Neither. I'm crazy... like a fox!

Besides, I thought you'd like that I'm trashing Spider-Man a bit.

[Quentin Black]

You were?

[Revelation]

Yeah, Batman isn't Marvel either and I see a lot of it on this thread, so I didn't think that mattered.

[Quentin Black]

You were? I couldn't tell whether that was just your usual backwards 'wit' or if you actually were making a point.

[Zev]

Backwards wit? So I have 'tiw'? And I can't really remember much of Spawn, except that is was just sucky overall. In that way I guess it was a faithful comics adaption.

I think Spawn at one point got a cute kiddie sidekick. That was kinda bad.

And, just in case you haven't noticed, the title of this thread is worst moments in COMIC BOOK movies. Not Marvel movies. My inital post had Superman and Batman. Three pages and you haven't figured this out.

And you call me slow.

By the way, in the original comic Matt showed his abilties to Elektra alone in an isolated area of his college campus (having had the foresight to have Foggy distract her bodyguard), NOT in broad daylight in a crowded playground.

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Yada yada yada, despite the text that everyone copies and pastes from marvel thinking they know all about the character he does it all the time in the in the comics, be it with Frank Miller or Alex Maleev.

Oh, that condescending tone really does it for me.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Backwards wit? So I have 'tiw'? And I can't really remember much of Spawn, except that is was just sucky overall. In that way I guess it was a faithful comics adaption.

I think Spawn at one point got a cute kiddie sidekick. That was kinda bad.

And, just in case you haven't noticed, the title of this thread is worst moments in COMIC BOOK movies. Not Marvel movies. My inital post had Superman and Batman. Three pages and you haven't figured this out.

And you call me slow.

By the way, in the original comic Matt showed his abilties to Elektra alone in an isolated area of his college campus (having had the foresight to have Foggy distract her bodyguard), NOT in broad daylight in a crowded playground.

Look, you took a phrase literally, soo witty.

WRONG FORUM :rolleyes:

Very secluded, no one would ever think to go down a campus path.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by spide-ed
Oh, that condescending tone really does it for me.

Hey don't get sore just because you can't seem to do your research.

[Casius--J]

Man you have way too much time on your hands, they're just movies!

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Hey don't get sore just because you can't seem to do your research.

I guess im just jealous of how cool you are. ;)

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Look, you took a phrase literally, soo witty.

WRONG FORUM :rolleyes:

Very secluded, no one would ever think to go down a campus path.

Look, you pointed out what I did to be funny, soo witty.

Funny, you've posted in here a dozen times and never complained about the forum. But I'll allow for it since you're slow.

More secluded then a crowded playground. Plus, doing a single jump over a person is a lot briefer then a protracted kung-fu fight.

[Quentin Black]

Wow, not original enough to think up of your own comback? Well it is you afterall.

Wow what a complaint I made :rolleyes:. Nothing would have been said about what forum it was in if you hadn't had tried to be soo clever by pointing out that I missed out the fact that there were Superman and Batman films in this thread when I pointed out that Spawn wasn't Marvel. Guess you couldn't resist making a snipe but either way you seemed to have missed the forum...I know finding a forum is a difficult task and all but please do put in an effort next time.

Hmm, who was there apart from a bunch a little kids? They make great witnesses and detectives don't they

[DACrowe]

I only mention big projects or half decent ones no B-movies (Superman IV, Marvel movies in the 80's, Spawn, Steel, B&R, etc) or just crap.

-Halle Berry and Toad, death scene-X-Men.
-Little Matt beating up bullies in DD.
-Otis-Superman
-Playground fight-DD
-"What I said to Spider-Man" hospital-Spider-Man
-Cinderella-Spider-Man
-Fire house wisecrack-Spider-Man
-Thumbs up-Spider-Man

[DACrowe]

Oh and

-Hulk folloowing the great speech by Nick Nolte and the father and son relationship ruined by his speech....no by that stupid as crap fight between the two in the end. Absorbing Dad does indeed suck.

CAn't think of any others, but there are more.

[nemo7]

Isildur-
Sadly, WB won't release the "Girls Gone Wild" featuring Power Girl, and equally unfortunately, NecroMantra has been M.I.A. since the early ninties when Malibu was absorbed by Marvel. Perhaps she'll make an appearance on The Man Show.....

[ViscaBarcaInter]

.....

The worst moment ever in a comic book/superhero movie.

Superman turning back time. Why?

Uhhh.... Hello! He turned back ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^ing time!!!!!! There are so many things wrong with that, I can't even begin to list them! The whole missle thing and Lex knowing he couldn't solve every problem in the time available were great, as was the scene where he finds Lois dead. But the sheer stupidity of this time thing makes a goofball Lex and his airhead assistants look like movie gold.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by DACrowe
I only mention big projects or half decent ones no B-movies (Superman IV, Marvel movies in the 80's, Spawn, Steel, B&R, etc) or just crap.

-Halle Berry and Toad, death scene-X-Men.
-Little Matt beating up bullies in DD.
-Otis-Superman
-Playground fight-DD
-"What I said to Spider-Man" hospital-Spider-Man
-Cinderella-Spider-Man
-Fire house wisecrack-Spider-Man
-Thumbs up-Spider-Man

I agree with all of these except for the playground fight (which I thought was awesome). There are a few more in Hulk and Spidey that I would add though.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black

Hmm, who was there apart from a bunch a little kids? They make great witnesses and detectives don't they

And their parents, since I don't think many would willingly leave their children alone in New York City. And the playground was about a block away from a coffee shop, so it's probably in some kind of business district. People are walking around, driving. I don't know how you can think this scene is 'awesome'. It's padding of the worst sort. "We need more action, quick, find a way to put in a kung-fu fight!"

DACrowe, Batman & Robin and Superman 4 were both sequels to blockbusters. They were big movies, which makes their badness all the more inexcusable. In both cases, the WB ruined some of their biggest franchises by making them overly campy and stupid.

Of course, Marvel did the same thing with Daredevil by loading it with prima donna stars and generally casting more for popularity at the moment then rightness for the role. Kingpin I can understand, but how do you get Jennifer Garner from Elektra Natchios? And Colin Farrell as Bullseye? They got lucky on that one, I'll give you that.

Think of some of the better comic book movies. They're mostly unknowns in the leads. What did Hugh Jackman do before X-Men? What did Christopher Reeves do before Superman? Now, what did Arnold Schwarzenegger do before Batman & Robin or Tommy Lee Jones do before Batman Forever? Hell, what did Halle Berry do before Catwoman? As you can see, this way lies madness.

[Quentin Black]

Yes, there were so many parents watching. This is a inner city playground with kids in their early teens, not a suburban park where dads play catch with their kids. It's a nice performance that lasted for two minutes but that isn't going to turn many heads. From what most people will be able to see is a smartly dressed guy doing some sort of performance with a girl. It's in Hells Kitchen of the comics btw if hadn't figured that one out. If they wanted more action and padding don't you think they would go with the erm...31 minutes that was cut rather than a two minute scene? :rolleyes:

Prima donna stars? Collin Farrell and Jennifer Garner were small names before the film (do your research) and were extremly hard workers, quite the oppisite of prima donnas. The only people of note were Ben Affleck who most agree did a great job, MCD (perfect for the role) who has only ever done supporting roles and Joey Pantaliano who normally sticks to the indie or more obscure roles. If they were really so careless they would not have gotten such a strong cast (something which most critics agree on). The weakest bit of casting was Garner who a lot of people liked and I doubt you could think of a better person for the role.

Ian McKellen, Patrick Stuart, Jennifer Conelly, Wesley Snipes, Kirsten Dunst, Willem Dafoe, Tobey Maguire, Nick Nolte, Micheal Keaton, Jack Nicholson, Kim Basinger, Michelle Phiffer, Danny Devito, Christopher Walken, all had relatively strong careers before they did their films and were bigger stars than MCD, DD's second biggest star with some being on equal pegging with Ben.

Stephen Dorff, Fanke Jenssen, Josh Lucas, Anna Paquin, Alan Cumming and Brian Cox all also had strong careers or career bases and would match up to Joey Pantaliano or any of the other supporting characters in DD for starpower.

Yes, so just because DD had a few stars it's automatically a bad movie :rolleyes:. I mean all those other ones were just terrible weren't they? So tell me, how is 'double standards' spelt?

[Zev]

The point is that they weren't cast upon being right for the role, they were cast to get butts in seats. And quite the opposite happened. Oh, I forgot, that's because of the 'snowstorm'.

Oh, and ^_^^_^^_^^_^ing COOLIO was cast in the movie. Sure, he was cut, but Jesus! If that doesn't give you serious doubts about whether the casting director was on drugs, I don't know what will.

Oh, and as for a better actor for Elektra? I don't have to. You already did. Bridget Moynahan as Elektra

Jennifer Garner, although great, was the weak link in the casting. Admittely it is a very, very hard part to cast. I'd go with Bridget Moynahan, a rising actress, because she's got the look, she's attractive, she is a pretty decent actress who can do the role from what I have seen. Not perfect but the best choice for Elektra. I'd also tweak the movie costume but not much.

Not my first choice, I'd probably go with Asia Argento. She has a very exotic look and a little crazyness going on under the hood, as it were.

You also thought Ed Norton would be a better Matt Murdock. Now, I wouldn't say this is exactly 'coming back to bite you in the ass', but I think you didn't like Daredevil as much as you want us to believe.

[Quentin Black]

Yes they were cast to put butts in seats becuase they were such stars despite only two of them having any sort of starpower at all :rolleyes: Just ignore the fact that the whole cast gave great performances faithful to the characters, as pointed out by a lot of critics and people on these boards, and we're set to go. Oh by the way people, nobody should watch Batman Begins since that has a load of stars too :rolleyes:

X Men's cast was far from faithful to the source but since we're going by the pretender's double standards we'll brush that one away.

Garner was the weak link but she was still a very strong bit of casting. Asia Argento would not make a better Elektra at all judging by her previous performances.

I named Ben Affleck and Ed Norton for the role because all though one has proven he can do the role I think the other would do a great job as well and overall Ed Norton is one of my favorite actors of all time. Does this diminish the strength of Ben's preformance? No. Do I think the film is perfect? No. Is Zev plucking at straws? Yes. Does Zev have double standards? Yes. Is Zev really slow for not being able to understand that I can entertain an idea of what I'd like to see in a DD film yet still love the very faithful and well done actual film? Yes.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Yes they were cast to put butts in seats becuase they were such stars despite only two of them having any sort of starpower at all :rolleyes: Just ignore the fact that the whole cast gave great performances faithful to the characters, as pointed out by a lot of critics and people on these boards, and we're set to go. Oh by the way people, nobody should watch Batman Begins since that has a load of stars too :rolleyes:

Oh, let's forget that Jennifer Garner has a top-rated TV show and a lot of fans And Colin Farrell, sure, that didn't bring in any Teen Beat readers. And they did not give good performances. Farrell chewed more scenery then Jack Nicholson, Affleck sleep-walked through the role (and gave the most disaffected voiceover I've heard since Blade Runner), Garner coasted by on her breasts, and MCD just acted big and threatening.

X Men's cast was far from faithful to the source but since we're going by the pretender's double standards we'll brush that one away.

Which is why X-Men is widely reviled by the internet community just like Daredevil. Oh, wait...

Garner was the weak link but she was still a very strong bit of casting. Asia Argento would not make a better Elektra at all judging by her previous performances.

Very strong bit of casting? It didn't go any further then 'kung-fu chick in movie' equals 'get kung-fu chick from TV'. She isn't Greek at all, she wasn't cold or calculating, she didn't act like Elektra. When was Frank Miller's Elektra EVER motivated by revenge? She was motivated by profit and love and sometimes just plan bloodlust.

I named Ben Affleck and Ed Norton for the role because all though one has proven he can do the role I think the other would do a great job as well and overall Ed Norton is one of my favorite actors of all time. Does this diminish the strength of Ben's preformance? No. Do I think the film is perfect? No. Is Zev plucking at straws? Yes. Does Zev have double standards? Yes. Is Zev really slow for not being able to understand that I can entertain an idea of what I'd like to see in a DD film yet still love the very faithful and well done actual film? Yes.

Is Ben Affleck an over-rated pretty boy who catapulted himself to success with a screenplay he didn't even write? Yes. Is Mark Steven Johnson a hack director with no experience that would make him suitable to make a superhero movie except for an over-zealousness for the source material that led him to try to cram years of events into one movie? Yes.

Did Kingpin or Bullseye have any motivation other then they were evil? No. Does killing an elderly lieutenant require the no-doubt-expensive talents of a psychotic assassin from overseas? No. Was Elektra in 'costume' for more then ten minutes? No. Does Daredevil kill people? No. Does Quentin Black grasp any of this? No.

[Zev]

And another thing. Ask anyone what the best element of Daredevil is. The most spot-on casting, the funest part. Chances are they'll say Jon Favreau as Foggy, right? Or Bullseye, because everyone loved Colin Farrell's performance. Hey, maybe even Joe Pantiolone's performance as Ben Urich. No wonder. They're THE ONLY CHARACTERS that havn't been significantly altered.

Matt Murdock has gone from a lawyer who fought for justice outside (but NOT above) the system to a S&M fetishist vigilante.

Elektra has gone from a 'fallen angel', an assassin for hire to a Poor Little Rich Girl who becomes a badass in cliched black leather for ten minutes to avenge her crime lord father's death. Umm, what?

Kingpin has gone from a cultured crime lord hiding his savagery and wanting the best for his family to a street thug with a lot of power.

These are the THREE BIGGEST CHARACTERS in the movie and they've all been changed around.

What is the major complaint about Spider-Man? Another change, the Green Goblin costume. Of course, this has been rectified for the sequel since Doctor Octopus looks and moves exactly likes his comics counterpart. I know, I know, he had a yellow and green jumpsuit in the comics, but like the mechanical webshooters, that's the kind of thing you have to lose for a credible adaptation.

Sony and Sam Raimi did a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man and they're laughing all the way to the bank. Where's the Daredevil crew?

Ben Affleck went on to do Paycheck and Gigli. 'Nuff said.

Mark Steven Johnson is trying to get his hands on Ghost Rider. I'm hoping Marvel's learned their lesson. Since he's only a producer on Elektra, I'm thinking they have.

Jennifer Garner, along with Jon Favreau and Joe Pantiolone, is probably coming out of the whole debacle the best. She has the Elektra spin-off, 13 Going On 30, and Alias.

Michael Clarke Duncan is now mostly doing voice work. His next live-action role is D.E.B.S. IMDB descibres it thusly: 'Plaid-skirted schoolgirls are groomed by a secret government agency to become the newest members of the elite national-defense group, D.E.B.S.' He's sixth-billed. With that and The Scorpion King, he is now competing with Kevin Costner for 'biggest nose-dive after winning an Oscar'. Halle Berry is expected to win for Catwoman.

Colin Farrell went on to take the lead in the universally-panned S.W.A.T. You know, "WAN MEEEEEEEEELION DOLLLARS!"

P.S. Another blast from the past. Here's Quentin's explanation of why Daredevil was waiting outside Ben Urich's offices when the reporter was typing up the story on Daredevil.

Yes why don't I? Keys on they keyboard makes different sounds, test it yourself if you don't believe me. I for instance already know the sound my phone number makes on the keyboard. Some people can figure out the majority of what you type from the sound of the keys so it's not that unbelievable that someone who has superhearing who is blind would learn this trick, especially in a world governed by computers. Especially if he has had just under 20 years to do so.

[Anti-Undies]

I'm sorry but I can't really think of anything wrong with any of the Marvel or DC movies because I love the majority of them even Batman & Robin (This movie was so bad that it was good to me).The only movie that I can say was really awful and took itself too seriously is Spawn.

Also I even loved both Punisher movies

[skorponok]

God I swear some of you go WAAAYY too out of your way to trash movies.

[Zev]

Some movies go way out of there way to trash themselves.

[ang_hulk]

Not sure if this counts or not but but I thought the deleted scene from x-men two with storm and jean in the black bird was the worst.You know the one where jean says "Not!"

[Pnyryd2k1]

only part in Spider-man i felt was truely out of place...was the last part of the bridge scene with the New Yorker's helping spidey by throwing mess at GG...i felt they could have done something better with that scene..but i know why they did that to give the whole New Yorkers are untied feel...especially after 9-11

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
And another thing. Ask anyone what the best element of Daredevil is. The most spot-on casting, the funest part. Chances are they'll say Jon Favreau as Foggy, right? Or Bullseye, because everyone loved Colin Farrell's performance. Hey, maybe even Joe Pantiolone's performance as Ben Urich. No wonder. They're THE ONLY CHARACTERS that havn't been significantly altered.

Matt Murdock has gone from a lawyer who fought for justice outside (but NOT above) the system to a S&M fetishist vigilante.

Elektra has gone from a 'fallen angel', an assassin for hire to a Poor Little Rich Girl who becomes a badass in cliched black leather for ten minutes to avenge her crime lord father's death. Umm, what?

Kingpin has gone from a cultured crime lord hiding his savagery and wanting the best for his family to a street thug with a lot of power.

These are the THREE BIGGEST CHARACTERS in the movie and they've all been changed around.

What is the major complaint about Spider-Man? Another change, the Green Goblin costume. Of course, this has been rectified for the sequel since Doctor Octopus looks and moves exactly likes his comics counterpart. I know, I know, he had a yellow and green jumpsuit in the comics, but like the mechanical webshooters, that's the kind of thing you have to lose for a credible adaptation.

Sony and Sam Raimi did a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man and they're laughing all the way to the bank. Where's the Daredevil crew?

Ben Affleck went on to do Paycheck and Gigli. 'Nuff said.

Mark Steven Johnson is trying to get his hands on Ghost Rider. I'm hoping Marvel's learned their lesson. Since he's only a producer on Elektra, I'm thinking they have.

Jennifer Garner, along with Jon Favreau and Joe Pantiolone, is probably coming out of the whole debacle the best. She has the Elektra spin-off, 13 Going On 30, and Alias.

Michael Clarke Duncan is now mostly doing voice work. His next live-action role is D.E.B.S. IMDB descibres it thusly: 'Plaid-skirted schoolgirls are groomed by a secret government agency to become the newest members of the elite national-defense group, D.E.B.S.' He's sixth-billed. With that and The Scorpion King, he is now competing with Kevin Costner for 'biggest nose-dive after winning an Oscar'. Halle Berry is expected to win for Catwoman.

Colin Farrell went on to take the lead in the universally-panned S.W.A.T. You know, "WAN MEEEEEEEEELION DOLLLARS!"

P.S. Another blast from the past. Here's Quentin's explanation of why Daredevil was waiting outside Ben Urich's offices when the reporter was typing up the story on Daredevil.

Actually a lot of people say Ben and MCD did a great job and a few even swear by Jennifer Garner. You really should learn to do your research.

You three character descriptions just shows how clueless you are.

The characters from Spidey and X men were changed considerably more. Since when was MJ a screaming damsel in distress? Where is the sassiness that she oozes in the comics? Peter Parker was just done like any other tortured hero, poorly, with none of the things that made use love him in the comics like the wisecracks and actual personal problems. GG was reduced to a clownish bad guy who had no idea about strategy...a far cry from the cruel, cunning master mind in the comics. The difference is I'm not even using exaggerated descriptions of the characters where as your descriptions are extremely exaggerated. Is your memory goin Zev or have you forgotten that I have already been over all this in another thread and your fellow Spiderman fan agrees with ME.

Just to prove how substanceless your arguement is (well I don't blame you since at every turn I prove you wrong with facts from the comics and show your complete incompetance) your arguement has been reduced with competing with box office numbers and what actors have gone on to do. Of course box office and the actors role choices just defines which movies are better since we all know that Titanic is the best movie ever :rolleyes: Good one pretender. :)

PS. The problem with the fact that a man with superhearing can diffrentiate the sounds that a keyboard makes is...? Nothing. Is Zev quoting out of context to try to regain dignity? Yes. Is Zev grasping at straws again? Yes.

[skorponok]

You go Quentin, It's your birthday!

[skorponok]

...and how is Murdock now an S & M fetishist vigilante? If someone says it's because he wears leather then they obviously never thought of the irony that if he wore tights, Murdock would either be dead or far more scarred than he was in the movie.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Actually a lot of people say Ben and MCD did a great job and a few even swear by Jennifer Garner. You really should learn to do your research.

Really? Who, exactly. Because you're the only one I see here.



You three character descriptions just shows how clueless you are.



How exactly our my character descriptions off-base?



The characters from Spidey and X men were changed considerably more. Since when was MJ a screaming damsel in distress? Where is the sassiness that she oozes in the comics? Peter Parker was just done like any other tortured hero, poorly, with none of the things that made use love him in the comics like the wisecracks and actual personal problems. GG was reduced to a clownish bad guy who had no idea about strategy...a far cry from the cruel, cunning master mind in the comics. The difference is I'm not even using exaggerated descriptions of the characters where as your descriptions are extremely exaggerated. Is your memory goin Zev or have you forgotten that I have already been over all this in another thread and your fellow Spiderman fan agrees with ME.



You're saying Mary-Jane hasn't once been taken hostage or otherwise been in danger in the comics? And you call me a pretender. For someone defending freakin' Daredevil, you have a lot of nerve to complain about a tortured hero being done poorly. And how did GG not have strategy? He forced Spider-Man into a burning building for an ambush and lured him to a bridge, which, if you'll notice, is far away from things to swing on. Where did Bullseye lure Daredevil? The 'magic rooftop'.

And I love how to say X-Men wasn't faithful to the characters, then don't give any examples. But since it isn't your favorite whipping boy, Spider-Man, it's excused.



Just to prove how substanceless your arguement is (well I don't blame you since at every turn I prove you wrong with facts from the comics and show your complete incompetance) your arguement has been reduced with competing with box office numbers and what actors have gone on to do. Of course box office and the actors role choices just defines which movies are better since we all know that Titanic is the best movie ever :rolleyes: Good one pretender. :)



Well, I resent you trying to turn me into one of those 'popularity-determines-quality' people since I never mentioned box office numbers. I only said which movies they've done afterwards. Try to look at the type of projects they've chosen and whether you think they'd have the wisdom to determine Daredevil was a good movie.



PS. The problem with the fact that a man with superhearing can diffrentiate the sounds that a keyboard makes is...? Nothing. Is Zev quoting out of context to try to regain dignity? Yes. Is Zev grasping at straws again? Yes.

The problem is aside from meeting Urich briefly at the party (Where, by your own admission, Urich only said he 'wanted to talk' to Matt), Matt had NO IDEA Urich was investigating him in his civilian identity. Unless he somehow had a vision of Urich at the coroner's office. So does Matt set aside a time of day to scan for keyboards typing 'Matt Murdock is Daredevil', just in case? Because otherwise I don't see how he'd be able to distinguish it from the hundreds, if not thousands, of computers in New York. That's not counting other keypads, like cash registers, etc.

And how do you accuse me of grasping at straws when your sole evidence of Daredevil killing in the comics is Man Without Fear? Oh, and let's not forget the Fixer, since you seem to be one of only four people who think that was murder.

And since you so love dragging personal insults into arguments, have you always been a snide, snotty punk or did you only start when you hit puberty?

[Zev]

Originally posted by skorponok
...and how is Murdock now an S & M fetishist vigilante? If someone says it's because he wears leather then they obviously never thought of the irony that if he wore tights, Murdock would either be dead or far more scarred than he was in the movie.

Well, I can't think of ANY reason an acrobatic gymnast (and that's what Daredevil was conceived of, NOT a street brawler) shouldn't wear tight, thick leather. And we ALL know from that sleeper B-movie Spider-Man that tights can't be taken seriously by the audience.

[Quentin Black]

It's called research. You should try doing it, especially since it not difficult to find in any thread about DD. Oh wait, I forgot, you don't do that.

Hmmm, how were your comments off...? Yes he's an s&m vigilante because he wears leather and beats up people...geez X men was a regular orgy then :rolleyes: You've taken the basic premise of the characters, exaggerated them with words like s&m or badass to try to come up with a decent arguement when I could do that with any other one of the comic films which were all less faithful, character and plotwise. Then again I wouldn't expect any less than double standards from a pretender.

The man alone sequence, to everyone that I have talked to, including many who didn't like the film, just shows how low DD's life can get as a superhero. However it was balanced with many other factors such as his charming character and repartees with Foggy. He also had chemistry with his supporting characters, something which Spidey lacked. As a tortured hero he was far from typical and reminds me a lot like the Keaton of the first Batman with a few different personality traits. All typical tortured Tobey did was put on a grumpy teen face and make badly written speeches. Despite managing to woo the girl, get in to a great university and share a great flat. Number 2 looks set to correct that problem with actual problems in his life yet that doesn't help number 1's case.

Get this folks...GG has knocked out Spiderman with sleeping gas...he brings him up to a secluded rooftop...Spiderman is unconscious...and still GG doesn't sneek a peek at who his potential enemy is. All logic would tell you to take a look for insurance and tactical advantages but he doesn't. Bullseye is a nut, always has always will be. Even Wilson "the street thug" Fisk thought to unmask his enemy :rolleyes: Either this is one of the biggest plotholes since the Matrix sequels or GG is a poor kiddies version of the mastermind in the comics. Take your pick.

...laughing all the way to the bank...

This is a reference to box office. Since when do movie choices change the enormous quality of a film? If you really think that this is a point with substance you're more stupid than I give you credit for. You're insinuating that money, box office (which affect movie choices) and industry politics affect the quality of a film that has passed.

We are no told how long it is after the events of the night DD took down Kingpin. It is not hard for a semi-intelligent audience to realise that Matt has done some research in to Urich. Urich seemed to be close on his scent by figuring out that there is a connectiong between him and DD. We can tell this from a many things. The Daredevil articles he writes, "There is something I want to talk to you about", "Nice colour" and the meeting between his later which ends "I thought you might know someone who could help". He tracks down Urich's office (very easily done) and investigates Urich. Not a difficult premise to get and something I've already mentioned if you wouldn't quote me out on context but again, that isn't something I would not expect from a pretender.

I thought it was simply voluntary manslaughter until I was corrected by the very knowledgable Paladin who told me that by LAW it would be murder two. See, this is how you do research.

Hit a sore spot have I? Well to answer your question I started when I met stupid people like you who can only pretend to know what they are on about. I'm not trying to be insulting, I actually think you're stupid and a pretender. :)

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Well, I can't think of ANY reason an acrobatic gymnast (and that's what Daredevil was conceived of, NOT a street brawler) shouldn't wear tight, thick leather. And we ALL know from that sleeper B-movie Spider-Man that tights can't be taken seriously by the audience.

Yes, you seem to not understand that DD fights up close and has fights where *shock horror* punches and cuts are made very often! He wouldn't last in spandex as spandex doesn't protect the body like the leather does. DD doesn't bounce like Spidey and even in the comics he gets beaten on a lot more. There is also the misconception that he is an acrobat like Spidey when he is much more. He brawls (especially when drawn by Maleev) and does a multitude of martial arts and ingeneral does a lot of up close, on the ground or enclosed fighting. You also don't seem to get that DD is a darker and much more violent film and what works for Spidey doesn't work for a different film. You shouldn't try to think, you don't seem to be very successful at it.

[Zev]

Yes, a darker and much more violent film. That's why Daredevil was rated R and Spider-Man was only rated PG-13... oh, wait.

And yes, I do realize there are differences in content within the rating, but apart from a few instances of brutality (Kingpin's legs being kicked in, Elektra being impaled and even then not much was shown), the violence level was almost the same. Darker? In some places, making for a very uneven movie. We only see the dark, tortured Daredevil once, in the 'man alone' sequence. Other then that, he was a remarkably well-adjusted individual.

Keaton's Batman was a freak. He thought nothing was wrong with sitting at opposite ends of a gargantuan table with Vicki Vale, hung upside-down in his sleep (Daredevil pulled a similar trick with an isolation tank, but as we can see in the sex scene, he doesn't really need it), and *shock horror* actually left his girlfriend when there was trouble that had to be dealt with!

So you never exaggerate a quality to make a point? It's called satire, look into it.

Yes, Green Goblin refusing to unmask Spider-Man was hokey, but just as much as BOTH Bullseye and Kingpin pausing their respective confrontations with Daredevil to make badly-written confessions.

[Quentin Black]

That's why in England, where the rating system does actually count for something, Spiderman was a 12a and DD was a 15.

As I have already said to Spide-ed when he asked in what way was DD more violent...

(you should really learn to do your research...how did you ever pass sch...oh wait...nevermind)

Originally posted by Quentin Black
You get Bullseye rampantly killing people (although two of them is in a lighter hearted way). The assasination scene you get drivers with ninja stars in their necks and Natchios impaled with a stick. Even the regular fighting is more brutal. DD was clobbering people with his fists and his club in the bar and let a guy die in the subway. When he goes after that guy in his own apartment he just beating down on this guy with his fists. This is in contrast to Spidey who normally bounces up and down on the bad guys or webs them up. Then you get the fights with the main bad guys. It's again pretty vicious and brutal. DD gets stabbed through the shoulder, a ashtray in his jugular (very painful) and Bullseye gets his hands shot through before being chucked out of a window on to a car. Kingpin gets his knees caps kicked in, one of the most painful defeats I can think of. I think one of the things which cut it was Elektra being beaten up (beating women is still a big thing with censors) and stabbed through twice, rather painfully and graphically (although the one through the hand wasn't shown in UK cinemas as it was too graphic). I mean when GG got impaled it was a split second thing with relatively little mess. When she got impaled she got lifted up and held there while the point poked through her back...her faced actually looked like she was in agaony. There was most definately more brutal violence all the way throughout and this is in the cut version.

...to which Spide-ed could only reply with...

Originally posted by spide-ed
I'll get me coat :eek:

You really have a bad memory. The darker side of Matt is shown constantly through out the film in sequences like his beating of that thug and his failure to stop the assasination. As always like a pretender you fail to get that is how DD is in the comics. He is not polarized and there are light, charming and comicy parts to match the dark, brutal and tragic parts.

You also fail to understand so much. Notice the only time he can get some decent sleep is after he's been with a girl or in the tank...maybe you wouldn't know the aftereffects of sex but any guy who has done it would. Matt is not a freak and he is a more human character. Human characters have all sides to them and are not polarized. As a human character of course he's going to stay with Elektra. What guy wouldn't? He has the choice of getting his ribs beaten for probably nothing or staying with the woman he's fallen in love with. It is not his responsibility to care for every crime he hears and it makes him more realisitc to show that he's not the perfect Captain America style hero who fights simply because of the good of whatever. Trust a pretender not to know this.

It's only satire if it reflects the truth while being witty...which yours lacks.

You're comparing one of the biggest plot holes (which pretty much ruins the rest of Spidey plot from that point on) and errors in characterisation to Bullseye's short 20 second gloat over the only person he has ever missed and Kingpin's one minute reply to Matt's (what he believes to be final) question/request...yeah, good luck with that one :rolleyes:

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black

You also fail to understand so much. Notice the only time he can get some decent sleep is after he's been with a girl or in the tank...maybe you wouldn't know the aftereffects of sex but any guy who has done it would. Matt is not a freak and he is a more human character. Human characters have all sides to them and are not polarized. As a human character of course he's going to stay with Elektra. What guy wouldn't?

You can't tell me that sleeping next to a woman would be more peaceful then sleeping alone. Ever heard of morning breath? Imagine how that would be to someone with super-senses. Not to mention someone's breath pounding in your ears, the warmth coming off their skin. Of course, they could show Matt being lulled to sleep by that, showing him taking comfort in it, but instead they went with the Baywatch sex scene, which was a result of the nebulous 'studio' inserting in. How come everything bad about Daredevil is attributed to the studio (i.e. the crappy CGI which makes Spider-Man's worst moment look like real-life), yet you still defend its decisions? Make up your mind.

And what guy wouldn't? How about a guy who swore to uphold the law (except when it doesn't go his way, in which case he takes it into his own hands)? In a better movie, he's read about the result of his inaction in the morning news, like one of those rapes he seems so anxious to avenge. Or go and have his leaving her paralleled by the (overly obvious, especially the 'Shadow-world' shot) cemetary scene.

And if the intact mask of Spider-Man bothers you, I guess you can't enjoy any of the Adam West Batman series or the James Bond scenes where Bond is left in a death trap. Of course, in the sequel it seems Harry Osborn plans to unmask and stab Spider-Man in rapid succession, so maybe intelligence skips a generation.

And Daredevil leaves his mask at Kingpin's, so he'd better hope no CSI decides to investigate the man wanted for the murder of both a rapist and Elektra's father. Can you really imagine no skin cells, hair, or blood sticking to that thing?

Oh, and if he used the baton Kevin Smith pulled out of Elektra's father as a cane, why didn't he leave any fingerprints on THAT?

But, if that scene bothers you so much, then I have no choice but to get back to the point of this thread before you stopped by.

That your mask? No touchey, Spider-Man

If there's anything us would-be supervillains have learned from popular fiction, it's that you should always kill and unmask your nemesis, not neccessarily in that order, since unmasked goodie two-shoes have a tendency to fight twice as hard. Compare Jackie Chan to Batman.

So you can only imagine the frusteration when Green Goblin knocks Spider-Man out with undue ease (and some Sleepy-Time Gas he never uses again) and then doesn't take off his mask. But then, they say each movie gets to have one fatal flaw and this, like Superman turning back time and Joker's thugs showing up at his cathedral escape, is Spider-Man's.

Still, it sucks. What, does Goblin think Spidey's gonna find out and refuse his offer? "You took off my mask when I was sleeping! I can tell because it's four degrees off-center! Mmmm-hmmm!"

I think that and Green Goblin cover Spider-Man's flaws. If not, I'm sure Quentin Black will.

Oh, and I've never called Quentin Black stupid. He's actually rather smart. A smarmy, yuppie kind of smart, but smart nonetheless. Now, if only he could rid himself of the erroneous notion that Daredevil kills people. I wonder what it's like in Quentin's world...

Spider-Man divorces Mary-Jane! Says 'the love is gone!'

Wolverine releases book, 'You're okay, I'm okay: Why Violence Doesn't Work!'

Punisher gives criminal second chance. 'You look like a good kid, even though you have a gun pointed at my face. Why don't you spend a few Sundays at church?'

Superman pushes Austrailia into Japan!

Professor X: 'Screw humans!'

Sharon Stone: Actress of the year!

Zev still big poopie-head!

EDIT: I've read the Spider-Man novelization and author Peter David explains Green Goblin's motivation.

"Don't worry, I didn't remove your mask. I'll respect your right to privacy... for the moment, anyway. Because I respect you."

Someone suggested Goblin should have blackmailed Spider-Man into becoming his partner. This wouldn't have worked because, hey, what are the chances of the millions of people in New York City, he would know who the man behind the mask was? And though it would have worked, how can you have a trusting partnership when one party is only going along because he's being forced. What's to stop Spider-Man from snapping one day and stabbing Gobby in the back?

[Quentin Black]

Ever heard of getting sleepy after sex? Obviously not in your case. I seriously hope that you don't need every little detail and the actual machanics of everything shown to you but I wouldn't be surprised. How much more evident can it get? As for the CGI there are three or four moments where there is poor CGI, much like there are a handful in Spidey two. But as Ebert and Roeper explains, DD relies on it's strong characters, Spidey relies on it's often shoddy effects.

Wow, you really do show your lack of understanding of the character. He is a human character and as one he does not jump in to every crime he hears otherwise he would be DD 24-7. He's flawed in the way that as a human he would prefer to not go and since it's not his responsibility I don't see why he would leave the best thing in his life for something. If you want Captain America style no-apparent-reason heroics then watch a hero movie aimed at kids and stop trying to turn DD in to a typical hero when he isn't.

People nowadays laugh [b]at[/i] the Batman series and if Batman and Bond style silliness is the best you can compare Spidey to Spidey is worse than I thouhgt.

Wow, you really have taken nitpicking to a new level. You do realise that modern common forensics is not as sophisticated as CSI makes it out to be. I know beause my sister used to work at a crime lab. If it was then you wouldn't get the whole Law and Order series and pretty much every movie which has involved an investigation since forensics would solve it all. So if you discout DD on that level you discount thousands of films and TV programs.
As for the baton there would be fingerprints, but not DD's considering he wears something called...gloves.

I really don't think Kingpin or Bullseye were over confident, that's a very common product of being a ego-centric manic at the top of their games. I really don't see the trouble in them stopping for half a minute to gloat in their enemies face before their victory.

Say what you want but DD's violent beginnings are a part of the comics and a big part of the character. If you didn't pretend so much then you would know.

You're not a 'poopie-head'. You're just stupid and lack the inderstanding of a lot of things :)

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black

As for the baton there would be fingerprints, but not DD's considering he wears something called...gloves.


In his civilian alter-ego, where he uses it as a cane? We SAW that they knew how to transform it into a cane.

By the way, how come Ben Urich still seems to think Daredevil is a hero (unless of course he discounts the killing of Elektra's Crime Lord Father (ECLF from now on) as just another gangland slaying, in which case either Elektra's father is as bad as the rapist, in which case why should we feel bad about him, or the public consensus is that he's an innocent man who was murdered by Daredevil). The police and Elektra both want to take him out, why does he think this apparently mad-dog killer (who leaves flaming rip-offs, I mean, 'homages' to The Crow at his victim's death sites) would help him?

Strong characters? Do I have to break out the flash cards and explain how the characters are cliched (dark hero, fallen angel, psychopathic baddie, calculating mastermind, cynical and world-weary reporter, wacky sidekick). What's Kingpin's motive? Bullseye's? How, I forgot, they're evil.

So, wait, let me get this right. You're saying despite being in three major fights (this is assuming he washes his mask), Matt didn't leave A SINGLE PIECE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ON HIS MASK? Not a bead of sweat, not a drop of blood, nothing? That's not the Man Without Fear, that's the Man Without Bodily Functions.

So you don't see a problem with stopping the beating of Daredevil to gloat over him, but you DO see a problem with Green Goblin not taking off Spider-Man's mask? And you accuse me of double-standards...

The question isn't whether Matt would by sleepy after having sex with Elektra, it would be whether he could GET ANY SLEEP. And for a supposedly 'realistic' movie, there doesn't seem to be much consequences to Daredevil's actions. He doesn't prevent a crime, well, gee, no harm done. Framed for killing ECLF? He gets angry for a minute and throws stuff around (Acting! Genius!), then goes right back to being Daredevil in time for Elektra to find him. Even his last-minute confrontation with Kingpin is pointless, if the (inexplicable) police are just arriving to arrest him.

And tell me, why wasn't beating a confession out of the rapist 'edgy' enough? Maybe nearly Go Too Far but pull himself back at the last moment (how can Elektra save him from Going Over The Edge when he's already Gone Over It?). Why not, say, beat up his alibis into spilling the beans (oh, I forgot, he made the idiotic 'it was all consensual' defense. How many times in the real world has THAT worked? Oh yeah, Kingpin's leaning on the jury. So why not expose THAT action and get a mistrial?). If he wasn't satisfied with regular justice, why wait until the case was over to kill him? The inescapable conclusion is that, since he's frusterated at losing in court, he's taking it out on the winner. What do they call people like that again? Oh yeah, bullies.

[Zev]

FIVE-MINUTE DAREDEVIL, PART 1

EXECUTIVE: Mr. Arad? Sir? We’ve got someone who wants to do a Daredevil movie.

AVI ARAD: Oh really? What’s his credentials?

EXECUTIVE: Well, he wrote Grumpy Old Men and directed Simon Birch.

AVI ARAD: Hmm, sounds like a really bad choice. Who's the other guy?

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/rinzai/JoshHolland_00001.jpg

AVI ARAD: Ahhh! Give the job to Mark Steven Johnson! No WAY am I hiring this... Quentin Black fellow.

We open on … a really fake-looking rat. It crawls around and a drop of blood falls in a puddle. We pan up a cathedral for about fifteen minutes until we see that Daredevil has paused from his exhaustive attempts to stay alive to pose for a Creed poster. A spotlight shines over him.

DAREDEVIL: Okay, just gotta zip-line down to the floor. Just gotta hold on to this here baton, despite my stupendous loss of blood… Ugh!

PRIEST: My son! Are you alright? What happened?

DAREDEVIL: A good question. It all started billions and billions of years ago, with a great explosion of energy scientists call the Big Bang…

PRIEST: Ahem!

DAREDEVIL: Oh yeah. And on the seventh day, God rested…

PRIEST: I’m sorry, I was just thinking you should skip ahead some.

DAREDEVIL: Right. Well, when I was a little boy…

***

BLOOD: Drip!

BULLIES: We’re mean.

MARK STEVEN JOHNSON: Look! See how the blood is dripping into a puddle and his eye and Matt is reflected in it! It's that KEWL?

FANS: No, not really.

***

MATT: Ah, my dad's a drunken failure. See how EDGY and MATURE this is compared to Man-Spider? But I still love him, especially since he isn't a thug for some crime lord. So dad, what did you do before you got drunk?

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_terror/aim/aim3.jpg

DAD: Ummm... I got DRUNK!

MATT: That's my dad!

***

MATT: Keep on skateboarding, keep on skateboarding... Dad!

DAD: Matt? Ummm... How did this intimidated extortion victim's neck fall into my hands?

MATT: Well, maybe we can find out toge... wait a minute! That tears it, I'm going to run in front of this toxic chemical!

***

PRIEST: So, your exposure to the chemical blinded you but amplified your remaining senses, as well as giving you a kind of radar sense.

DAREDEVIL: Couldn't have put it better myself. Anyway, my dad got his act straight and joined an 11-step program. The eleventh step was not give in to people who want you to throw boxing matches and they'll back down. In retrospect, that may have been a bad idea. Anyway, I taught myself kung-fu...

PRIEST: Wait a minute! You can't just teach yourself kung-fu, supersenses or no supersenses.

DAREDEVIL: Oh really?

***

MATT: Hey, Neo, I need to borrow your computer for a minute.

NEO: Sure thing.

MATT: I know kung-fu!

NEO: Whoa! Well, you've got crappy movies to make, I've got crappy movies to make...

MATT: Ahem, crappy COMIC BOOK movie to make.

NEO: You've never heard of Hellblazer, have you?

***

BULLY: Matt, I DARE you to fight me. I DARE you. Do you realize I'm DARING you? I'm having a DEVIL of a time doing it...

MATT: HI-yah!

BULLY 1: Ouch!

MATT: Whoo-paw!

BULLY 2: Gak!

MATT: Mint!

BULLY 3: Argh!

MATT: Hehehe...

***

PRIEST: So, you beat up your tormenters. For some reason, I'm having trouble picturing that.

DAREDEVIL: Well, think of the similar scene in Spider-Man, only much, much stupider.

PRIEST: Like, say, using your cane as a kendo stick?

DAREDEVIL: Bingo!

***

CRIME BOSS: Matt's dad, I want you to throw this fight.

DAD: Never! I've redeemed myself and I'm never going to do anything you say again!

CRIME BOSS: Okay, I want you to win this fight.

DAD: Screw you! Just for that, I'm going to lose it!

***

MATT: C'mon dad, notice how I'm cheering for you? God, I'm a bad actor. Yeah! Woo!

DAD: That's it, I'm not throwing this fight!

DON KING: Only in America!

***

KINGPIN: Hi there. Beating heart.

DAD: What beating heart? GAK!

KINGPIN: Exactly.

ROSE: Notice me, I'm a plot point!

MATT: Oh, I notice alright...

***

PRIEST: So, it turns out that your family was murdered by your arch-nemesis. Just like in Bat...

DAREDEVIL: Shh!

***

MATT: Your honor, the defendant is guilty! Wait a minute, I'm a lawyer. Why am I prosecuting this case?

RAPIST: Beats me. By the way, it was consensual.

MATT: What? That's the stupidest defense ever? Why don't you have Kingpin's thugs manufacture you an alibi (which I could beat them into recanting in my guise as Daredevil, the relentless red-garbed foe of evil)?

RAPIST: Sorry, I didn't catch that last bit. Something about a relentless red-garbed foe of evil?

MATT: The defense rests, your honor.

JUDGE: You're the prosecutor.

MATT: Oh, right. In that case, the rapist is a big liar and it wasn't consensual.

JURY: Well, Kingpin's leaning on us, so... Not guilty!

MATT: Yes, I got another client off!

JUDGE: We've been through this.

***

PRIEST: Whoa, the mysterious Kingpin of Crime has even corrupted the justice system. It seems like justice needs an avatar, someone to stand for truth in a city of rats.

DAREDEVIL: That's just what I was thinking!

PRIEST: So, you exposed the jury tampering, got a mistrial, and convicted his ass?

DAREDEVIL: No, that would make too much sense. Instead...

***

DAREDEVIL: Look! My cane turns into a baton! And now it's nunchucks! And now it's a staff! And now it's a...

***

RAPIST: Ahh, nothing like a good drink after beating a rap. God, I love being evil!

DAREDEVIL: Oh yeah? Well, now I've cornered you!

RAPIST: Daredevil! I'm gonna kill you!

DAREDEVIL: Yeah? You and what army?

BAR FULL OF THUGS: Grrr...

DAREDEVIL: I'm not very smart, am I?

BAM!

POW!

SMACK!

***

PRIEST: I'm sorry, but I can't tell what's going on. You started fighting the entire bar full of thugs, then you just started waving your arms around and making fight noises.

DAREDEVIL: The real thing was much harder to follow. But eventually...

***

RAPIST: Run away! Run away! Hey, a subway tunnel! He'll never find me there!

DAREDEVIL: Gotcha! Now, I'm going to beat a confession out of you. And even when you give up, I'm gonna keep beating you, because I'm so close to Crossing The Line.

RAPIST: Okay, that sounds reasonable.

MOVIE BATMAN: Psst! Kill him! Trust me, it's fun.

RAPIST: Don't listen to him, Daredevil would never kill anyone.

DAREDEVIL: Sorry, but given a choice between faithfulness to the comics and ripping off a successful movie...

SUBWAY TRAIN: LOUD!

DAREDEVIL: Argh! My ears! That train is cursing in Trainese!

RAPIST: Drat, now I'll never know what choice he was gonna make.

DAREDEVIL: All better.

RAPIST: Gak!

DAREDEVIL: Now you're soundly defeated. I had no choice but to defend myself, tragically resulting in...

RAPIST: Umm, a little help here?

DAREDEVIL: Don't interrupt. Just like in Spider-Man, which is a stupid kiddie picture that isn't as good as my movie, you brought this on yourself by accident.

RAPIST: No, really, if you could just help me up...

DAREDEVIL: Why? Why do men turn to crime! Oh, truly, crime does not pay. Alack! Alas!

RAPIST: DO SOMETHING!

DAREDEVIL: Like gloat over the man I'm going to murder in cold blood? Don't mind if I do!

***

PRIEST: So you killed someone just because you lost to them in court? That's pretty low, Daredevil.

DAREDEVIL: He was a rapist.

PRIEST: Still, you can't take the law into your own hands. If you do, you're not aiding it, but actually sabotaging...

DAREDEVIL: Lalalala! Not listening! Lalalalala!

To be continued...

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
In his civilian alter-ego, where he uses it as a cane? We SAW that they knew how to transform it into a cane.

By the way, how come Ben Urich still seems to think Daredevil is a hero (unless of course he discounts the killing of Elektra's Crime Lord Father (ECLF from now on) as just another gangland slaying, in which case either Elektra's father is as bad as the rapist, in which case why should we feel bad about him, or the public consensus is that he's an innocent man who was murdered by Daredevil). The police and Elektra both want to take him out, why does he think this apparently mad-dog killer (who leaves flaming rip-offs, I mean, 'homages' to The Crow at his victim's death sites) would help him?

Strong characters? Do I have to break out the flash cards and explain how the characters are cliched (dark hero, fallen angel, psychopathic baddie, calculating mastermind, cynical and world-weary reporter, wacky sidekick). What's Kingpin's motive? Bullseye's? How, I forgot, they're evil.

So, wait, let me get this right. You're saying despite being in three major fights (this is assuming he washes his mask), Matt didn't leave A SINGLE PIECE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ON HIS MASK? Not a bead of sweat, not a drop of blood, nothing? That's not the Man Without Fear, that's the Man Without Bodily Functions.

So you don't see a problem with stopping the beating of Daredevil to gloat over him, but you DO see a problem with Green Goblin not taking off Spider-Man's mask? And you accuse me of double-standards...

The question isn't whether Matt would by sleepy after having sex with Elektra, it would be whether he could GET ANY SLEEP. And for a supposedly 'realistic' movie, there doesn't seem to be much consequences to Daredevil's actions. He doesn't prevent a crime, well, gee, no harm done. Framed for killing ECLF? He gets angry for a minute and throws stuff around (Acting! Genius!), then goes right back to being Daredevil in time for Elektra to find him. Even his last-minute confrontation with Kingpin is pointless, if the (inexplicable) police are just arriving to arrest him.

And tell me, why wasn't beating a confession out of the rapist 'edgy' enough? Maybe nearly Go Too Far but pull himself back at the last moment (how can Elektra save him from Going Over The Edge when he's already Gone Over It?). Why not, say, beat up his alibis into spilling the beans (oh, I forgot, he made the idiotic 'it was all consensual' defense. How many times in the real world has THAT worked? Oh yeah, Kingpin's leaning on the jury. So why not expose THAT action and get a mistrial?). If he wasn't satisfied with regular justice, why wait until the case was over to kill him? The inescapable conclusion is that, since he's frusterated at losing in court, he's taking it out on the winner. What do they call people like that again? Oh yeah, bullies.

You really don't understand how forensics works do you...that's not surprising.

Ben Urich trusts his hunches and does not follow the suspscions of the media. He makes up his own mind about things and believes Daredevil does good...unsurprisingly just like in the comics. Again, just to show how little you understand, you forget that Natchios was made to look like the Kingpin that the press was after. DD does have strong characters something America's top two critics, Ebert and Roeper, agree on.

Sweat is not useful forensic evidence. If there was some blood in the mask (unlikely since he didn't get his head cut open) it would be usless unless they have the perp's DNA on record which they obviously don't for Matt. Research will do you a world of good...actually having an education would do you a world of good. If you're going to be nitpicky about the forensic side of things then you must hate Law and Order and every film with an investigation or murder mystery in it. Then again I'm not surprised if you just had double standards and are grasping for straws since it seems you have little other points.

You could turn anything in to a 'cliche' by making piss poor exaggerations and generalisations like you've been doing for all your posts. However for something like Spidey you don't even need to exaggerate. Kingpin's motive...business and power, just like it is in the comics. Bullseye is paid but resents DD because he can't take him down easily, just like in the comics. God, you really do need everything spelt out to you.

You're comparing one of the biggest plot holes (which pretty much ruins the rest of Spidey plot from that point on) and errors in characterisation to Bullseye's short 20 second gloat over the only person he has ever missed and Kingpin's one minute reply to Matt's (what he believes to be final) question/request...yeah, good luck with that one :rolleyes:

Jesus Christ let me spell it out to you. After you have sex you have a drowsy feeling and in the case of Matt that would be amplified. Being with someone he loves combined with that effect is enough to get anyone asleep. How do you miss the point every single time? No consequences are loses in his personal life and strain on himself. To add to that the police are investigating him (something which takes a long time). As for the final battle it was not for nothing as he gained a victory over his enemy both physically and personally.

The edginess is not something that was created for the movie, it is in the comics as I have shown you so many times. We did not see the whole trial sequence and we do not know the full story of it so we cannot comment acurately on the legal side of it. However the defense has of stating that is was consensual and breaking down the accusation's credibility (something you chose so carefully to ignore to desperately regain some credibility yourself, in vain) has worked before. He can't push for a mistrial because that would take months and it would be likely that he wouldn't be able to get a retrial since he has no evidence whatsoever or the jury being bribed or blackmailed. He couldn't get justice in any way and sought to deliever his own brand of justice to someone he knew was guilty. What so hard to understand.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black

He can't push for a mistrial because that would take months and it would be likely that he wouldn't be able to get a retrial since he has no evidence whatsoever or the jury being bribed or blackmailed.

Well, gee, it's too bad he doesn't have an alter-ego who can go and dig up that evidence. You'd think evidence of Kingpin using his power would be more damaging to him then having a lieutenant of questionable power murdered.

So, you're saying that two objects Matt uses frequently have no evidence to link them to him? Not a single skin flake or fingerprint on the cane that he uses to walk with EVERY DAY, not a bit of hair or blood on his mask? Keep in mind he was knocked around a lot.

Oh, and I suppose the cops didn't test all that blood that ran down the cathedral either?

Piss-poor exaggerations or generalizations? Is that how you excuse the truth? Bullseye is a raving lunatic, just like Joker, right down to the scenery-chewing. It also makes no sense that such a professional (presumably very expensive) is brought in to assassinate someone. Unless it's to make it look like a hit from someone not in Kingpin's organization, but in that case why use him again? Why not spell that out so we can marvel at how brillant Kingpin is?

Why would drowsiness be amplified for Matt? If anything, he should have more stamina then a ordinary man to make those gravity-defying leaps (just like Bullseye and Elektra. Jesus, Foggy probably jumps to work).

You're right, we didn't see all of the court sequence. Specifically, the part that explained why in the Hell a lawyer was prosecuting. Or how the physical evidence that would have to be incurred in a rape was presented. Though, knowing MSJ, he would just use it to set up a joke about how small the rapist's penis was or something.

"He couldn't get justice in any way and sought to deliever his own brand of justice to someone he knew was guilty." You know, I would really hate to live in a world where 'knowing' someone was guilty was all the requirements needed to commit a murder. He murdered a rapist, what's next? Robbers? Money launderers? Pick-pockets?

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Well, gee, it's too bad he doesn't have an alter-ego who can go and dig up that evidence. You'd think evidence of Kingpin using his power would be more damaging to him then having a lieutenant of questionable power murdered.

So, you're saying that two objects Matt uses frequently have no evidence to link them to him? Not a single skin flake or fingerprint on the cane that he uses to walk with EVERY DAY, not a bit of hair or blood on his mask? Keep in mind he was knocked around a lot.

Oh, and I suppose the cops didn't test all that blood that ran down the cathedral either?

Piss-poor exaggerations or generalizations? Is that how you excuse the truth? Bullseye is a raving lunatic, just like Joker, right down to the scenery-chewing. It also makes no sense that such a professional (presumably very expensive) is brought in to assassinate someone. Unless it's to make it look like a hit from someone not in Kingpin's organization, but in that case why use him again? Why not spell that out so we can marvel at how brillant Kingpin is?

Why would drowsiness be amplified for Matt? If anything, he should have more stamina then a ordinary man to make those gravity-defying leaps (just like Bullseye and Elektra. Jesus, Foggy probably jumps to work).

You're right, we didn't see all of the court sequence. Specifically, the part that explained why in the Hell a lawyer was prosecuting. Or how the physical evidence that would have to be incurred in a rape was presented. Though, knowing MSJ, he would just use it to set up a joke about how small the rapist's penis was or something.

"He couldn't get justice in any way and sought to deliever his own brand of justice to someone he knew was guilty." You know, I would really hate to live in a world where 'knowing' someone was guilty was all the requirements needed to commit a murder. He murdered a rapist, what's next? Robbers? Money launderers? Pick-pockets?

Where does he start? He has no idea who the rumoured kingpin is or what he has done. If the evidence was aquired through less than legal means it can be easily discreditted as well. He is powerless to stop the rapist being set free.

The only set of fingerprints they would have found on his club was Bullseyes and this would be a starting point for the clearance of DD's name and the conviction of Bullseye. Skin flakes do not make good evidence and even if they did get a substantial hair or blood sample they need someone with a record to match it up with. Forensic investigations also take months. As I have repeatedly said...how is this a problem anyway. Nearly all murder mysteries or investigations in films do not focus heavily on forensics.

Why would he not bring in one of the best assasins to work for him. It's not like money is a problem.

Super-sensitive touch.

Could you get any more nitpicky? Lawyers do prosecute, it's part of their job. Matt Murdock prosecutes in the comics all the time. He is primarily a defence attourney but he act as the prosecution quite a lot in the comics. Do they have to go through the whole trial when the same effect can be achieved through a cropped? Do you really need every process spelt out for you when the means is not that important?

Are you seriously trying to compare pick pockets to rapists? I bet all those victims of rape, one of the worst crimes which degrades the victim both mentally and physically in a sexual manner causing both mental and physical trauma, would love to hear how you think that rape is no big deal. DD is not a saint or a perfect hero like those heroes for kids. He did start out doing wrong things in the comics and although he was wrong to play judge jury and executioner to a serial rapist a lot of people would debate whether the ends justify the means. I bet those people who's family or friends are victims of murder would be out for blood too if the rapist went scot free and knowing how hot tempered Matt is and his past in the comics it's not surprising he did what he did.

[Quentin Black]

Just so that the message gets across that highly uneducated dense skull of yours I'm making it extra big, just for you.

As far as I'm concerned this conversation is over. I am tired of explaining every little point to someone with so little understanding of everything from law to forensics to comics to movies. You pretend you know what you're going on about but at the end of the day you cover up lack of knowledge, reasoning and valid points with puerile exaggerations and crude humour.

I have repeately shown you with references from the comics and film and general knowledge about things like law and forensics why you are wrong and you repeatedly ignore it. The fact is is that you're just a pretender who knows very little. The futility and flimsiness of your arguements is shown by the fact that you have gotten so low that you have resorted to making frankly pathetic and crude exaggerations of the negative aspects of Daredevil, something anyone could do for any movie no matter the quality.

You've already proven for everyone with any intelligence you don't actually know what you're on about and all you can seem to do is nit pick non existant problems or 'problems' which all the other comic films had but worse. Your latest string of criticsms show your lack of comprehension of the movie and at that level there is nothing I can do but suggest you get a better education and comeback when you can actually understand the points in any movie without it being spelt out. If your mom paid more than a dollar for your education she was severly ripped off.

It has always been said, it is hard to fight an idiot becuase he will always wear you down with sheer experience of being an irrational idiot.

[Zev]

FIVE-MINUTE DAREDEVIL, PART 2 (THE PART AFTER MOWING THE YARD)

BEN URICH: So, another gangland killing. Could be this Punisher person I've been hearing about?

COP: No, we found a three-boobed Russian guy across town with 'don't drag me into this, sincerely, the Punisher' machine-gunned over his forehead.

URICH: If not Punisher, then what hero who kills people because it's 'edgy' and 'kewl'? Cable? Spawn? Daredevil?

COP: Hey! There's no such person!

URICH: Well, the greatest trick Daredevil ever pulled was making the world think he didn't exist. Speaking of which...

FWOOSH!

COP: Oh my god! A crow-shape written in lighter fluid! And somehow it's reflection isn't flipped in your glasses!

URICH: No, next to it! The calling card!

COP: Angel Investigations?

URICH: The one BENEATH IT!

COP: Here Comes Daredevil?

URICH: Bingo!

COP: Wait a minute, what's this on the back...

URICH: Let's Level With Daredevil, Phone Sex Hotline?

COP: Ahem, I'll be keeping that...

***

PRIEST: You know, I still can't get over you learning kung-fu.

DAREDEVIL: Hey, Blade knew kung-fu inexplicably.

PRIEST: Actually, Whistler taught him.

DAREDEVIL: Batman?

PRIEST: Travelled the world and spent a lot of money to learn kung-fu from the masters.

DAREDEVIL: Superman?

PRIEST: Superman doesn't use kung-fu.

DAREDEVIL: Nuh-uh! I read a script review online and it said he used it to fight Ty-Zor before going to Krypton!

PRIEST: But... but that's just something stupid from the guy who wrote Alias!

SPIDER-MAN: Hey, Daredevil's the expert on stupid things from Alias!

DAREDEVIL: Oh no...

PRIEST: Who's this.

DAREDEVIL & SPIDER-MAN: Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

DAREDEVIL: I swear, he's the biggest ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^. Remember when he got that awesome Playstation video game and the Fantastic Four got some POS side-scroller from Acclaim? He lorded it over them for months. I think it traces back to when they wouldn't let him join.

SPIDER-MAN: Speaking of which, guess who's going to direct the FF movie. No, guess.

DAREDEVIL: He's been in this pissing contest with Wolverine over who's the Marvel mascot for about twenty years. Don't let on that his movie is better then mine.

SPIDER-MAN: Heh! I've always been better then him. Remember when I was hanging out with Firestar and Iceman...

PRIEST: Yeah! Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can...

SPIDER-MAN: And he couldn't even get an animated series off the ground?

DAREDEVIL: Please, don't tell him about the dog...

SPIDER-MAN: Oh yeah. His crime-fighting sidekick was his seeing-eye dog, Lightning.

PRIEST: You're ^_^^_^^_^^_^ting me!

SPIDER-MAN: Nope. It's the God's honest truth. So, whacha doin'?

DAREDEVIL: I was just telling this priest...

SPIDER-MAN: What's his name, anyway?

PRIEST: I don't have one. I'm just the Priest.

DAREDEVIL: As I was saying, I was just telling him my origin story.

SPIDER-MAN: Did you get to the part with the bar fight and all the jump-cuts?

PRIEST: Yes.

SPIDER-MAN: Aww... I really wanted to see him trying to wriggle his way out of that.

DAREDEVIL: Who's story is this? Now, where was I. Ah yes...

***

BULLSEYE: Ah-ha! Sounds can hurt you! How to turn this to my advantage? I've got it! Gobble gobble.

DAREDEVIL: Noooooooooooo!!!

***

PRIEST: No, you skipped ahead a bit there.

DAREDEVIL: No, that's all there is to it.

SPIDER-MAN: Actually, I'm pretty sure there's a chick in there.

DAREDEVIL: C'mon, have mercy.

SPIDER-MAN: Goddamnit, I did that retarded Green Goblin scene, you'd better 'fess up to Elektra.

DAREDEVIL: Fine. But first...

***

MATT: Oh, woe is the life of a superhero! I lost a tooth! I'm zoinked out on painkillers! My life sucks! But at least I'm not a mopey ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^ like Spider-Man.

***

SPIDER-MAN: I can't believe you said that.

DAREDEVIL: Hey, my life really does suck! It's all pointless. That's why I listen to Emo every morning.

SPIDER-MAN: Yeah, it's not like you have a successful career, best friend who isn't the son of your greatest enemy and wants to kill your alter-ego, hot chick dating you, OR a father figure who didn't die recently.

DAREDEVIL: Hey, my father figure died a long time ago!

PRIEST: Yeah, you'd think he'd have gotten over it by now.

DAREDEVIL: Shut up! Let me get on with the story. So, me and Foggy (he's my best friend, okay?) are in this coffee shop.

***

FOGGY: Alligators in the sewers! I'm drinking honey in my coffee! Aren't I funny? Matt?

MATT: Wah? Oh, I was just thinking how glad I was you weren't Danny Devito.

FOGGY: Devito? Please! He only stars in GOOD MOVIES!

DOORCHIME: Ring!

MATT: Babe-sense... tingling!

SPIDER-MAN: Wish I had that power.

PRIEST: Shush!

MATT: Time to use my fictional blindness the way God intended... to score babes!

ELEKTRA: Get lost.

MATT: Woman... rejecting me? I don't get it!

ELEKTRA: That's because you're blind.

MATT: Yeah! Well... you're Greek!

ELEKTRA: Actually, no. Just my father and mother.

MATT: So, what's a nice actress like you doing in a movie like this?

ELEKTRA: Well, they though 'does kung-fu on TV'. Then they read the part has to have a woman who does kung-fu...

MATT: That's it? That's your only similarity to the Elektra in the comics?

ELEKTRA: Oh, they promised me a spin-off if I'd dry-hump you.

MATT: Woohoo! Let's fight in broad daylight for no reason!

ELEKTRA: Aren't you blind? Or at least pretending to be?

MATT: Yes, but because I love you at first sight I'm willing to tell you my secret... I see dead people!

ELEKTRA: This must have been dumb in the comics too.

MATT: Yes, but at least then I didn't have a secret identity to protect.

ELEKTRA: What secret identity?

MATT: I'd tell you, but you show no signs of wanting to know.

ELEKTRA: That's right. Ignorance is bliss. I learned it from the guy who plays Urich.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Are you seriously trying to compare pick pockets to rapists? I bet all those victims of rape, one of the worst crimes which degrades the victim both mentally and physically in a sexual manner causing both mental and physical trauma, would love to hear how you think that rape is no big deal. DD is not a saint or a perfect hero like those heroes for kids. He did start out doing wrong things in the comics and although he was wrong to play judge jury and executioner to a serial rapist a lot of people would debate whether the ends justify the means. I bet those people who's family or friends are victims of murder would be out for blood too if the rapist went scot free and knowing how hot tempered Matt is and his past in the comics it's not surprising he did what he did.

No. When was it said that the rapist was a serial rapist? In what state is rape a capital offense (not murder through rape, but only rape, as the victim was obviously still alive)? I thought Daredevil was all about the law, but once he opens the floodgates, so to speak, what's to stop him from enforcing his own brand of lethal justice on pick-pockets?

Jesus Christ, even Daredevil guest-starring in Ennis' Punisher was more faithful then the movie Daredevil.

Super-sensitive touch? That's your whole answer? Is that also why Elektra and Bullseye can jump from rooftop to rooftop?

For your pleasure, a preview of upcoming Five-Minute Daredevil.

BULLSEYE: Hmmm, where should I look for a wealthy heiress whose father was just killed? I know! The rooftops!

When you can't make a good argument you yell and insult people? Wow. Great form. Bet you win a lot of arguments that way. Dick.

[Quentin Black]

Damnit, I really need to learn to ignore stupid comments.

Helloooo, his character has always been about the contrast between a good roman catholic lawyer and his excessively violent alter ego in a devil costume. That is how it is in the comics but as a pretender I wouldn't expect you to know.

You asked me why Matt would be more drowsy than any other guy. Super-sensitive touch. Figure it out, it's not hard.

My arguement is sound and I ahve proven you wrong at every point with references and solid general knowledge. You however have sunk to a witless crude puerile spoof of the script which just goes to show how weak your arguement is.

All I can do is to repeat it until you get the message.

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Just so that the message gets across that highly uneducated dense skull of yours I'm making it extra big, just for you.

As far as I'm concerned this conversation is over. I am tired of explaining every little point to someone with so little understanding of everything from law to forensics to comics to movies. You pretend you know what you're going on about but at the end of the day you cover up lack of knowledge, reasoning and valid points with puerile exaggerations and crude humour.

I have repeately shown you with references from the comics and film and general knowledge about things like law and forensics why you are wrong and you repeatedly ignore it. The fact is is that you're just a pretender who knows very little. The futility and flimsiness of your arguements is shown by the fact that you have gotten so low that you have resorted to making frankly pathetic and crude exaggerations of the negative aspects of Daredevil, something anyone could do for any movie no matter the quality.

You've already proven for everyone with any intelligence you don't actually know what you're on about and all you can seem to do is nit pick non existant problems or 'problems' which all the other comic films had but worse. Your latest string of criticsms show your lack of comprehension of the movie and at that level there is nothing I can do but suggest you get a better education and comeback when you can actually understand the points in any movie without it being spelt out. If your mom paid more than a dollar for your education she was severly ripped off.

It has always been said, it is hard to fight an idiot becuase he will always wear you down with sheer experience of being an irrational idiot.

[Herr Logan]

Zev, I should point out a couple things you've done wrong before commending you on your argument and satire.

First, Spider-Man's web-shooters are NOT a dispensible part of the mythos that can be erased for the sake of "realism." It was an unforgivable failure to do this, in more ways than can be mentioned.
Second, it's extremely wrong to equate rape with pickpocketing. It's one thing to say that Daredevil of the comics would not have killed a rapist and that it is illegal, and it's true, but to imply it's wrong to kill such people in principal and without a practical reason given as to its wrongness is ignorant. If there's one thing Quentin described accurately, it's the effects of rape.

Other than that (and whatever I may forgetting at the moment), your argument is sound and intelligent. While Quentin Black is doing a terrible job of defending "Daredevil," almost everything he said about "Spider-Man" is more or less true as well.

Modern forensic science is exactly as advanced as they show it on "CSI." I don't know or care what Paladin has to say about that. The only differences between the capabilities of forensic science and real-world results are the circumstances of the crime scene, the competence and work ethic of investigators and forensic scientists, and the departmental resources at their disposal. That doesn't in any way explain how Daredevil left the biggest evidence trail I've ever seen and had no consequences. If Ben Urich bribed Medical Examiner Kevin Smith in order to make the billy-cane "disappear," that would a start as to explaining it. Even then, a disappearing murder weapon in what should be a high-profile case would bring too much suspicion and wouldn't work smoothly. That's not even considering every other piece of evidence left. Sweat DOES carry DNA. Blood was all over the place. His mask had sweat, hair, and blood on it, and if he left it behind, then he committed legal suicide, especially considering the billy club. If they had made it clear to the audience that Murdock had wiped down his cane perfectly before using it as a billy club, then one could make a case that there were no fingerprints. As it is, gloves don't mean a damn thing. They aren't a valid argument here in the least. Murdock had his hands all over it, and Daredevil was seen using it. They only need Murdock's prints to start looking for Daredevil, they don't need immediate confirmation that the print belonged to a man wearing gloves. Jesus. That plot hole is bigger than the Green Goblin's failure to remove Spider-Man's mask on the rooftop (which was a big-ass failure in the movie), since Gobby is nuts and Murdock works with the legal system and knows all about forensic evidence.

Pretty much all your points are valid, Zev, and you do a good job of backing most of them up. Give us more "5-minute Daredevil", and then do versions of "Spider-Man," "X-Men," and "Hulk." DO IT!! ;)

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
Modern forensic science is exactly as advanced as they show it on "CSI." I don't know or care what Paladin has to say about that. The only differences between the capabilities of forensic science and real-world results are the circumstances of the crime scene, the competence and work ethic of investigators and forensic scientists, and the departmental resources at their disposal. That doesn't in any way explain how Daredevil left the biggest evidence trail I've ever seen and had no consequences. If Ben Urich bribed Medical Examiner Kevin Smith in order to make the billy-cane "disappear," that would a start as to explaining it. Even then, a disappearing murder weapon in what should be a high-profile case would bring too much suspicion and wouldn't work smoothly. That's not even considering every other piece of evidence left. Sweat DOES carry DNA. Blood was all over the place. His mask had sweat, hair, and blood on it, and if he left it behind, then he committed legal suicide, especially considering the billy club. If they had made it clear to the audience that Murdock had wiped down his cane perfectly before using it as a billy club, then one could make a case that there were no fingerprints. As it is, gloves don't mean a damn thing. They aren't a valid argument here in the least. Murdock had his hands all over it, and Daredevil was seen using it. They only need Murdock's prints to start looking for Daredevil, they don't need immediate confirmation that the print belonged to a man wearing gloves. Jesus. That plot hole is bigger than the Green Goblin's failure to remove Spider-Man's mask on the rooftop (which was a big-ass failure in the movie), since Gobby is nuts and Murdock works with the legal system and knows all about forensic evidence.


You seemed to be equally misinformed and every point I've made is based in fact/from the source material.

Modern forensics is a far cry from CSI. CSI has far more advanced equipent and computers than any government funded crimelab could afford and the program exaggerates the efficiency of the equipment. Sweat is not a sufficient source of DNA and DNA evidence is not useful unless they have a person to match it to. Usually they would do this via a search with everyone with a criminal record but since Matt doesn't have one their search would come up with nothing. As for the club, fingerprints do not stay on and appear very well with excessive handling. Any fingerprint evidence would have been removed or damaged when DD handled it with his gloves and when Bullseye handled it. It's like a door handle. The only fingerprints that could be extracted from that is the last person to use it which in our case is Bullseye. This is info from someone who has worked in a crimelab.

Did you really think forensics solves 95% of it's cases like it does in CSI? :rolleyes:

Matt did leave quite a trail but if you read the comics you would know he is that reckless. He doesn't even keep his identity well. However it would be hard to investigate and would not come up with any repercussions for months.

This isn't a plot hole and isn't comparable to GG not taking off his mask. GG is crazy, not retarded.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
You seemed to be equally misinformed and every point I've made is based in fact/from the source material.

Modern forensics is a far cry from CSI. CSI has far more advanced equipent and computers than any government funded crimelab could afford and the program exaggerates the efficiency of the equipment. Sweat is not a sufficient source of DNA and DNA evidence is not useful unless they have a person to match it to. Usually they would do this via a search with everyone with a criminal record but since Matt doesn't have one their search would come up with nothing. As for the club, fingerprints do not stay on and appear very well with excessive handling. Any fingerprint evidence would have been removed or damaged when DD handled it with his gloves and when Bullseye handled it. It's like a door handle. The only fingerprints that could be extracted from that is the last person to use it which in our case is Bullseye. This is info from someone who has worked in a crimelab.

Did you really think forensics solves 95% of it's cases like it does in CSI? :rolleyes:

Matt did leave quite a trail but if you read the comics you would know he is that reckless. He doesn't even keep his identity well. However it would be hard to investigate and would not come up with any repercussions for months.

This isn't a plot hole and isn't comparable to GG not taking off his mask. GG is crazy, not retarded.

"CSI," "Law and Order," and other law programs that show forensics solving parts of criminal cases streamline the processes and use fully equipped labs with competent employees. This is not a good representative sample of realistic law enforcement, granted, but I already said that there were a number of circumstances that reduced the chance that the technology idealy available would get the desired result. The science and technology is as advanced and helpful as it is on "CSI," but that's an ideal portrayal. If a case was a high enough priority, they can solve almost anything. In the Marvel Universe, the ules change, but not with Daredevil, as he only does what a man can do, instead of breaking the rules with telekinesis and molecular transmutation and other such abilities that don't leave a logical pattern. While an urban myth suspect in Hell's Kitchen wouldn't normally be a priority, when a rich businessman gets attacked in a limosine and then punctured by a red club, they are going to follow up on the case with everything they have. There's no question they'd have pressure to solve the case on them.

[Quentin Black]

Law and Order and nearly every movie with and investigation of some sort often overlooks the forensics (if it was really like CSI is would be case solved very quickly) so I don't really see what you guys are complaining about.

The priority would be high but as the business man was revealed to be the 'Kingpin' that would skew the case and investigation severely. No CSI lab has that high level of expensive sophisicated software (computer programs that can recreate non existant 3D images of an object from sparce information or obtain a pefect photo likeness from a blurred surveilance image) or obtain results that quickly with that degree of accuracy. The CSI do spot many things that your average person wouldn't but not to the high degree that the people in the show do. The only two bits of evidence that would lead to a substantial lead are the mask and the club. The DNA evidence in the mask would not lead them to anybody, however they could prehaps build a likeness of the top half of the persons face. The club would be smeared with Bullseye's prints but the fact that it could open up in to a full length cane would lead to queries. The men of science are unlikely to believe that a blind man could do what DD does so therefore the cane would not be thought of as a blind man's cane. So they have the top half of someone's face, dead end DNA evidence and a club will a convicted murder's prints all over it that opens up in to a rod. Not exactly great leads, especially with department politics and false information skewing the investigation. What you fail to understand is that cases like DD's are not solved over days or weeks. They are cases where they accumalate masses of evidence over months or years before they lead somewhere.

[Herr Logan]

Like I said, what is shown on TV and movies is streamlined and idealized. that doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just means that in most cases, it's not likely to work as well.

People have seen Murdock carry that cane around, so if someone besides Urich (who is withholding knowledge) makes the connection, then that would lead investigators to try and get a sample of Murdock's DNA for comparison. This can be done in a huge variety of ways that don't even involve a warrant (not that they need warrants anymore, what with the PATRIOT Act). There is DNA in the mask and in the blood found all over the church. If someone makes the connection between Murdock's cane and the murder weapon in custody (which is not unlikely), then Murdock would be investigated and the connection would be made. This of course ignores the fact that the Kingpin might try to hinder investigations and throw everyone off, but that's beside the point of whether or not forensic science could nail Murdock to the wall. It could, and would under ideal circumstances.

Truthfully, any superhero who had a strong connection with a civilian known to the authorities (Peter Parker, Clark Kent) would be found out. Superman at least keeps his face vibrating constantly while in character so they can't use facial recognition software to match with Clark Kent. Any pictures come out blurry. He is safe from such technology, but not necessarily from voice recognition software. Daredevil, the Batman, and any hero who leaves part of his or her face partially exposed are fair game for facial recognition software and probably voice recognition. DNA samples can be taken from any hero who bleeds or leaves a scrap of costume behind.

This is how it works in the real world. If the case is a priority and there is enough high-level pressure for investigators to close the case, then all that stuff you see on "CSI" may come into play. Department politics and incompetence often screw up even high-priority cases, but that doesn't mean that a vigilante can simply let his guard down. Everything you see on law enforcement shows is a reality, just not necessarily as well-used or widely available. If people had their acts together, there is no way Daredevil would have gone unidentified in the movie or the comics. Yes, he's very sloppy with his identity, but even if he didn't tell every woman he banged who he was, he'd still get found out.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
The men of science are unlikely to believe that a blind man could do what DD does so therefore the cane would not be thought of as a blind man's cane.

Unless, of course, said blind man gallivanted around public playgrounds.

And unless Kingpin spilled the beans, in which case they would have to check Murdock's prints and blood against the samples they already have.

And unless the Priest, who can't be very experienced at keeping secrets from the police, happens to let something slip.

And Bullseye only left fingerprints on the BILLY CLUB portion. What happens when they test the parts that fold out to make a rod?

Let's face it, Clark Kent did a better job of covering up his identity with those damn glasses!

And I know that rape is a terrible crime that should have the death penalty attached to it. But it doesn't. So even if Matt had won, the rapist wouldn't have been put to death. He's made himself judge, jury, and executioner. Do you not see ANYTHING wrong with that, Quentin?

Oh, and let's say you're the Kingpin. Congrats, you've convinced the world that you were ECLF and are dead. So, what do you do? You assassinate someone else with the exact same M.O. that you used as the Kingpin! It was all for nothing! Idiot! Idiot! Idiot!

P.S. Herr Logan, we obviously disagree upon the importance of the web-shooters. Ah well, different strokes for different folks. See Quentin, THAT is how you disagree with someone.

NOW I DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE SO I'M GOING TO RUN HOME TO MY MOMMY! WAHHH!!!

[Herr Logan]

Zev: As long as you never again mention or defend the web-shooters issue, things'll be just peachy. :D

Your posts are intelligent and very entertaining, and thank you for making a thread for "5-minute Daredevil" in preparation for its subsequent epsiodes. :up:

[Everyman]

Originally posted by Zev
Very strong bit of casting? It didn't go any further then 'kung-fu chick in movie' equals 'get kung-fu chick from TV'. She isn't Greek at all, she wasn't cold or calculating, she didn't act like Elektra. When was Frank Miller's Elektra EVER motivated by revenge? She was motivated by profit and love and sometimes just plan bloodlust.

I haven,t been on this topic for ages, I want to comment on what you have written Zev. I also tought Daredevil was really weak, to say the least. I am not a Daredevil comic fan, so I don't know much how Elektra is portrayed. In the movie, she was terribly shallow. I think the revenge angle could have bring something to her character, but it was poorly done. Basically we barely meet her and her father, father dies, she gets into costume looking for Daredevil, find him (!!??) and starts a fight with him, discovers DD is Matt Murdoch, believes him when he says he is not the killer, then dies (or does she?). No reason is given as for why she knows martial arts (not how, but why), and the revenge part last as long as five minutes, top. It would have been much better had it been the main focus of the movie, Kingpin could have tempted her to go after DD, and turning her into an assassin with a moral motivation. Forget the silly Bullseye (I don't know what people liked about the character in the movie) and have this "darkside" Elektra fight Daredevil at the end. Now you have something dramatic!

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
Like I said, what is shown on TV and movies is streamlined and idealized. that doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just means that in most cases, it's not likely to work as well.

People have seen Murdock carry that cane around, so if someone besides Urich (who is withholding knowledge) makes the connection, then that would lead investigators to try and get a sample of Murdock's DNA for comparison. This can be done in a huge variety of ways that don't even involve a warrant (not that they need warrants anymore, what with the PATRIOT Act). There is DNA in the mask and in the blood found all over the church. If someone makes the connection between Murdock's cane and the murder weapon in custody (which is not unlikely), then Murdock would be investigated and the connection would be made. This of course ignores the fact that the Kingpin might try to hinder investigations and throw everyone off, but that's beside the point of whether or not forensic science could nail Murdock to the wall. It could, and would under ideal circumstances.

Truthfully, any superhero who had a strong connection with a civilian known to the authorities (Peter Parker, Clark Kent) would be found out. Superman at least keeps his face vibrating constantly while in character so they can't use facial recognition software to match with Clark Kent. Any pictures come out blurry. He is safe from such technology, but not necessarily from voice recognition software. Daredevil, the Batman, and any hero who leaves part of his or her face partially exposed are fair game for facial recognition software and probably voice recognition. DNA samples can be taken from any hero who bleeds or leaves a scrap of costume behind.

This is how it works in the real world. If the case is a priority and there is enough high-level pressure for investigators to close the case, then all that stuff you see on "CSI" may come into play. Department politics and incompetence often screw up even high-priority cases, but that doesn't mean that a vigilante can simply let his guard down. Everything you see on law enforcement shows is a reality, just not necessarily as well-used or widely available. If people had their acts together, there is no way Daredevil would have gone unidentified in the movie or the comics. Yes, he's very sloppy with his identity, but even if he didn't tell every woman he banged who he was, he'd still get found out.

Actually in all cases it doesn't work as well. The equipement for a start is not on a high priority let's order some basis. The equipment is brought with whatever funds they have and that is the extent of their equipment, a nearly no crime lab has as sophisticated and effcient equipment as CSI.

An investigation like this would also take months, not weeks for anything to come to fruition. That is how cases like investigations in a rumour are solved.

Your whole post has just shown the very little wrong there is. DD has always been reckless, the whole Fall of Kingpin saga relvolves around his recklessness so it is not actually out of place in the first place. Secondly this is a rule that if applied means that there are plot holes in the comics as well as every other superhero comic as well as every tv program or film that has involved an investigation. However none of them do get their identity found out (not even the high profile cases like Superman) because it is fiction and nobody except for people like zev needs this explained to them. It's in short a nitpick that applies to more movies than just DD and to only pick on DD is to have duble standards.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Unless, of course, said blind man gallivanted around public playgrounds.

And unless Kingpin spilled the beans, in which case they would have to check Murdock's prints and blood against the samples they already have.

And unless the Priest, who can't be very experienced at keeping secrets from the police, happens to let something slip.

And Bullseye only left fingerprints on the BILLY CLUB portion. What happens when they test the parts that fold out to make a rod?

Let's face it, Clark Kent did a better job of covering up his identity with those damn glasses!

And I know that rape is a terrible crime that should have the death penalty attached to it. But it doesn't. So even if Matt had won, the rapist wouldn't have been put to death. He's made himself judge, jury, and executioner. Do you not see ANYTHING wrong with that, Quentin?

Oh, and let's say you're the Kingpin. Congrats, you've convinced the world that you were ECLF and are dead. So, what do you do? You assassinate someone else with the exact same M.O. that you used as the Kingpin! It was all for nothing! Idiot! Idiot! Idiot!

P.S. Herr Logan, we obviously disagree upon the importance of the web-shooters. Ah well, different strokes for different folks. See Quentin, THAT is how you disagree with someone.

NOW I DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE SO I'M GOING TO RUN HOME TO MY MOMMY! WAHHH!!!

Yes, little kids are going to come forth and prove that a blindman can do martial arts. Get real.

Do you actually understand movies? This was explained very well at the end.

The priest is old, not retarded.

Yes because blind men all hold their canes by the part which goes on the ground :rolleyes:

Yes, there is a whole world wrong with that but that is the whole point of Daredevil! That contrast between good and bad is what makes him interesting. I swear you can't have read any of the comics because it's one of the biggest things about DD.

Natchios didn't have the rose on his body and the way they were assasinated has no similarities.

If you didn't insist on resorting to puerile tactics I would have to state the bloody obvious that loudly. Then again since you have very little argument I suppose the only way you could get a shoe in is to resort to crude poorly done spoofing. I could do that to Spiderman or Hulk but its immature and shows how weak one's arguement is.

Once again you hide the flimsiness of your arguement behind bad insults that you try to describe as satire. Shame.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Everyman
I haven,t been on this topic for ages, I want to comment on what you have written Zev. I also tought Daredevil was really weak, to say the least. I am not a Daredevil comic fan, so I don't know much how Elektra is portrayed. In the movie, she was terribly shallow. I think the revenge angle could have bring something to her character, but it was poorly done. Basically we barely meet her and her father, father dies, she gets into costume looking for Daredevil, find him (!!??) and starts a fight with him, discovers DD is Matt Murdoch, believes him when he says he is not the killer, then dies (or does she?). No reason is given as for why she knows martial arts (not how, but why), and the revenge part last as long as five minutes, top. It would have been much better had it been the main focus of the movie, Kingpin could have tempted her to go after DD, and turning her into an assassin with a moral motivation. Forget the silly Bullseye (I don't know what people liked about the character in the movie) and have this "darkside" Elektra fight Daredevil at the end. Now you have something dramatic!

I agree that the end was pretty rushed but your suggestion is terrible.

[Herr Logan]

I assure you, the very top of the line labs in this country, usually those used by the FBI and the more well-funded police districts, have more or less the same capability to TV crime labs in proportion to how the equipment actually works and how many people use it. It's an ideal. It's real, but not widespread. If I still had a mind for physical science, I'd take a forensics course. For now, what little criminology experience I have has shown me that this kind of science and technology does exist. What they give us in the text books is the highest level of available capability, which is what television and movies use in whatever capacity they choose. That doesn't mean most people can or will use it to their best advantage.

I don't know if Zev is only out to bash "Daredevil," but you're right in the sense that people should not be hypocritical about the flaws in one movie and not another. The problem is, that's what I believe you are doing. You attack "Spider-Man" pretty heavily, but you defend "Daredevil" even for things for which there really is no defense. I've spent more time in the last few years analyzing "Spider-Man" than "Daredevil," and have pointed out far more flaws, mainly because I had more invested in a Spider-Man film and I think it would have been extremely easy to use the basic frame of that movie and make it excellent instead of mediocre (which means "good" in comparison with most comic movies). I love the character of Daredevil, but he can more easily go up and down in entertainment value than Spider-Man. It's far too easy to simply use him as "Batman Lite" (even if that is how he came into existence), and that shrugs off all individuality and most of the entertainment value. I can't easily imagine what would have made a decent Daredevil movie as opposed to the terrible Daredevil movie that was made, but just because it's easier for me to point out extremely obvious ways in which they could have improved "Spider-Man," that doesn't mean I'm going to call "Daredevil" anything other that what it is. I imagine that when the director's cut finally comes out (maybe when my kids are old enough to see "R" rated movies?), one of the many failures of "Daredevil" will be at least partially fixed: the lack of a decent plot. Zev is right to point out the "inexplicable police" at the end, since there was absolutely nothing that would lead them to Fisk with that huge chunk of crime plot missing. Even so, "Spider-Man" will still win overall, and sadly it is mainly because of the special effects which you call shoddy. As horrible as the writing is, they at least got the action at least in the ballpark of accurate. That and they got the costume right.

You're obviously immovable in your viewpoint, and there's nothing I can do about that. It's up to you whether you let your stubbornness hurt you or help you in the future. This board has no consequences, so it doesn't matter for now.

[Quentin Black]

You still haven't shown how the forensics vs. identity affects the quality of the film.

The things I have pointed out all have a defence backed up by the comics or real life. There are things I would like to see improved but to attack DD simply becuase you didn't get it or enjoy it when it is actually one of the most faithful comic movies is wrong. As a fan I can see how nearly every part connects back to the comics. Fair enough if you don't like the comics/story it is based but don't start nit picking or making bull up. The story is solid and it works more as a character film with bits of very good action rather than just a mediocre CGI fest like Spidey. There are one or two plot holes (largely due to the studio) but none of these really affect the story as with a little common sense and intelligence from the audience they are actually very easily explained.

I'm immovable when you start pointing out the forensics of the film to be the biggest plot holes in years yet fail to follow up with a decent explanation as to why. So many other films over look forensics and the character of the comics is that reckless. Even in real life an investigation would last for months/years and there would be no immediate consequences.

This sound bite from Roeper and Ebert best summarises my view on Daredevil.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1120302/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=844393

[Everyman]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
I agree that the end was pretty rushed but your suggestion is terrible.

How is it terrible? It would have worked better than cramming into five minutes the whole revenge story, that wasn't much of a story, more a videoclip really.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
You still haven't shown how the forensics vs. identity affects the quality of the film.

The things I have pointed out all have a defence backed up by the comics or real life. There are things I would like to see improved but to attack DD simply becuase you didn't get it or enjoy it when it is actually one of the most faithful comic movies is wrong. As a fan I can see how nearly every part connects back to the comics. Fair enough if you don't like the comics/story it is based but don't start nit picking or making bull up. The story is solid and it works more as a character film with bits of very good action rather than just a mediocre CGI fest like Spidey. There are one or two plot holes (largely due to the studio) but none of these really affect the story as with a little common sense and intelligence from the audience they are actually very easily explained.

I'm immovable when you start pointing out the forensics of the film to be the biggest plot holes in years yet fail to follow up with a decent explanation as to why. So many other films over look forensics and the character of the comics is that reckless. Even in real life an investigation would last for months/years and there would be no immediate consequences.

This sound bite from Roeper and Ebert best summarises my view on Daredevil.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1120302/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=844393

It's fair enough to say that the forensics issue doesn't make "Daredevil" a terrible movie. I will also concede that "Daredevil" is probably more faithful to its source material than most other Marvel films. However, the story was missing huge chunks that left a completely nonsensical and illogical story (yes, even by comic book standards) and was therefore a failure. Not only that, the whole thing was filmed, directed and mostly written badly. While it may have been slightly more truthfullu adapated than other Marvel films, it was extremely shallow. Intelligence and common sense do not make a person accept this story, it makes them skeptical and judgemental. While movies such as "HULK" attempted to be "deep" and came off extremely shallow, "Daredevil" was merely shallow and badly produced. If "Spider-Man" had been been more true to its characters, it would have been as good as it gets. "Daredevil" shouldn't have tried cramming all those characters in there and leaving them all flat and ridiculous cardboard cut-outs. I really wanted the movie to be good, but they cheated me and every other Daredevil fan. I intend to rent to director's cut, but I'm pretty sure there won't be much redemption there, even with the full plot that would make the rest of it make more sense.
The argument for forensics is a moot point. Even if Daredevil had covered his tracks, it would not have left this a decent film. Ebert and Roeper don't carry any water with me. They're just movie critics, and Ebert has admitted he just likes being contrary. "Daredevil" was done poorly in almost every way that counts, and "Hulk", while filmed and edited failry well, was a failure in story, writing, its pretentiousness, and failthfulness to the comic. These two movies may not see sequels. Even with all the morons out there who praise stupid films, "Hulk 2" only recently got the greenlight, which will probably host a whole new cast, and "Daredevil 2 " still may not hit theaters. How the hell they thought "X-Men" was good enough to see its superior-but-still-mediocre sequel in the first place, I can't imagine. People are stupid. "Spider-Man" is going for 6 films because it has the most potential. Even in the first film, you could see that if they really wanted to, they could make a great film if they just built on the decent cast, good effects, and rich character background. They have the talent, but they make terrible decisions. It's clear from watching "Daredevil" that the filmmakers chose badly and didn't have the talent.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Everyman
How is it terrible? It would have worked better than cramming into five minutes the whole revenge story, that wasn't much of a story, more a videoclip really.

No it isn't and an hour is spent on the main story (which although rushed isn't a terrible thing). She didn't need to have lots on how she wanted revenge because her goal was virtually achieved when she stabbed DD. You miss key moments of DD history and a DD Elektra fight wouldn't be a conclusive one as DD wouldn't kill her and he can't die in her own film. Elektra doesn't get 'tempted' in to an assasin by Kingpin either and her transformation and alienation is not immediate.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
It's fair enough to say that the forensics issue doesn't make "Daredevil" a terrible movie. I will also concede that "Daredevil" is probably more faithful to its source material than most other Marvel films. However, the story was missing huge chunks that left a completely nonsensical and illogical story (yes, even by comic book standards) and was therefore a failure. Not only that, the whole thing was filmed, directed and mostly written badly. While it may have been slightly more truthfullu adapated than other Marvel films, it was extremely shallow. Intelligence and common sense do not make a person accept this story, it makes them skeptical and judgemental. While movies such as "HULK" attempted to be "deep" and came off extremely shallow, "Daredevil" was merely shallow and badly produced. If "Spider-Man" had been been more true to its characters, it would have been as good as it gets. "Daredevil" shouldn't have tried cramming all those characters in there and leaving them all flat and ridiculous cardboard cut-outs. I really wanted the movie to be good, but they cheated me and every other Daredevil fan. I intend to rent to director's cut, but I'm pretty sure there won't be much redemption there, even with the full plot that would make the rest of it make more sense.
The argument for forensics is a moot point. Even if Daredevil had covered his tracks, it would not have left this a decent film. Ebert and Roeper don't carry any water with me. They're just movie critics, and Ebert has admitted he just likes being contrary. "Daredevil" was done poorly in almost every way that counts, and "Hulk", while filmed and edited failry well, was a failure in story, writing, its pretentiousness, and failthfulness to the comic. These two movies may not see sequels. Even with all the morons out there who praise stupid films, "Hulk 2" only recently got the greenlight, which will probably host a whole new cast, and "Daredevil 2 " still may not hit theaters. How the hell they thought "X-Men" was good enough to see its superior-but-still-mediocre sequel in the first place, I can't imagine. People are stupid. "Spider-Man" is going for 6 films because it has the most potential. Even in the first film, you could see that if they really wanted to, they could make a great film if they just built on the decent cast, good effects, and rich character background. They have the talent, but they make terrible decisions. It's clear from watching "Daredevil" that the filmmakers chose badly and didn't have the talent.

I didn't like X-men all that much either and I agree that comic films don't match up to regular films unless you're a fan. However DD, along with Crow is one of the best you get. The story contains a maximum of two plot holes that were the result of the studios trigger happy editor. The writing is solid with one or two bad lines (which nearly all comic movies have) and the characters are close to the spirit of the comics. The casting is done very well and with each character you know what motivates them and their feelings. The cast had great chemistry and there was great development of Matt's character, the main focus of the film. Granted it could have been even better with more screen time but the characters came out strong. The director also made some great innovations to the world of DD.

[Master Blaster]

In my opinion there has never been a more terrible moment in Comic Book movies than "Batman & Robin"! It is definitely the worst Comic Movie Ever!

Not only that, But Mike "MST3K" Nelson best desribes the film as "It's not the worst movie ever. No, indeed. It's the worst thing ever. Yes, it's the single worst thing that we as human beings have ever produced in recorded history. (There may have been a viler clay tablet somewhere in prehistory, but we mustn't spend time speculating on that.) Batman & Robin is an act of cold cynicism, reckless incompetence, and unbridled hate. It is a story filled with hints of fetishism and pederasty, displayed with a bald-faced contempt for its audience. But hey, that George Clooney is easy on the eyes, I'll tell you that for free!"

The film is not only a slap in the face of the creators of the comic and its fans, but a slap in the face of good film making and story telling!

[Quentin Black]

lol

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Zev... u are an ASS

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
Zev... u are an ASS

Well, you sure put me in my place. :rolleyes:

Herr Logan, I am not ONLY out to bash Daredevil. This is the Worst Moments in comic book movies thread and it has covered Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, etc. Heck, even Swamp Thing and Rocketeer are eligible.

Quentin Black, you're trying to justify a Stock Villain, as Jabootu.com would put it. A character who, merely by who he is and what he represents, we root against. The Rapist might as well be a Nazi or a Child Molestor for all the impact he has. Hell, he could even be a Vampire. Look at him, all smug about his rape. Don't you want to see him get taken down? How can you hate us for showing a rapist getting killed? It's both a crutch and a shield. We don't know anything about him, only that he committed a rape and that he's unrepentant.

[That's the shield]. By invoking the spectre of [rape], they get some armor against criticism. Since the villain is so vile, how can a movie which shows a [rapist] getting his comeuppance be subjected to ridicule? Well, good intentions do not necessarily make a good movie. A bad movie that tells us Nazi Germany was a bad thing is still a bad movie, however noble its theme. From Jabootu's Bad Movie Dimension (http://www.jabootu.com/wot.htm)

I know, I know, he's a small character and we don't have time to get into what makes him tick, but what about the major villains? Why does Kingpin want power so much that he's willing to kill for it? Was he improvished and helpless as a child and swore he would do whatever it took to become on top? Does he love anyone? Does he regret having to hurt people? How does he justify his actions? He might as well be the head of Evil Inc., trying to put an untested medicine on the market. And this is used as a crutch to justify a Stock Hero, in this case a Crimefighter, Daredevil. His father was killed by the villain, now he wants revenge. And just like every revenge story ever, at the end he decides 'it's just not worth it' (you know he wanted to say it). The only reason Kingpin doesn't pull a gun, forcing Daredevil to kill him, is because they need Kingpin to pollute the world with Daredevil 2: This Time We're Doing Born Again Without Karen Page. From the makers of Daredevil: Daredevil, Kingpin, Bullseye + The Elektra Sage In Five Minutes Or Less!

How do we know Bullseye is evil? Why, he has a big disfiguring scar on his head and kills people every five minutes (not a good thing in a profession that's supposed to be low-key)! And his character? Well, he seems really proud about his uncanny accuracy, but why is he so psychotic? How did he get his power? He's the Stock Psychopath.

Even in the supposedly cartoony Spider-Man, we see Green Goblin's origin and motivation. He talks to himself. We see he's crazy. We know why he's crazy. He interacts with his son and the hero, in both his civilian and superhero persona.

Which brings me to another point. Did you know that, as originally scripted, Spider-Man was to feature both Green Goblin AND Dr. Octopus? It's true. They cut Dr. Octopus out because they knew they couldn't do him justice and tell Spider-Man's origin and Green Goblin's story. Not to mention subplot characters like Mary-Jane and Aunt May or Ben Urich and Foggy. Daredevil has to include both Kingpin and Bullseye, which is forgivable. Two villains have been done well in Batman Returns, but there it was a natural fit, a complimentary fit that benefitted all three characters, not the increasingly-forced teamings of the later installments. But it can still be done well, as Bullseye's insanity and Kingpin's intelligence make them obvious foils for each other. Then, they add Elektra, so now we have THREE villains, THREE story arcs. What is her relationship to Kingpin? To Bullseye? Hell, to Foggy? Can you name another movie with three villains?

http://www.nostalgia.com/posters/48543.JPG

I think you can just make out classic villain Bane next to Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy. If they kept doing that series instead of wisely rebooting it, our children would be watching Batman & Robin & Batgirl & Batwoman & Nightwing & Azrael: Catman Strikes Back!

And what if ECLF had KEPT the rose? What about the fact that Kingpin plans to kill his entire family (funny how Matt escaped this fate when Kingpin killed Jack Murdock)? Surely Ben Urich wouldn't be the only one pointing out that maybe reports of Kingpin's demise were greatly exaggerated.

P.S. Mike Nelson was right. But then, isn't he always?

[Quentin Black]

This is coming from a guy who pretends to be a fan.

It's not about how evil the rapist is. Rape is an unforgivable act. However we are not meant to cheer DD on, that is the point (taken from the comics). He does have his violent past and as DD he is violent and breaks the law all the time to take revenge on those he thinks deserve it. It's that contrast between good and bad which makes him interesting. Where is this idea from? The comics.

The motivation is perfectly clear. He's after power and business. He calculates and all his actions are out of self presevation and in his business intrests. Yes his past wasn't gone in to in much detail but at this point it is not necessary, just as the past of GG wasn't went in to. It's an intoduction to a long rocky realtionship between the two characters. He is how he is in the Elektra saga. The business criminal pulling all the strings. It is their crossing in the Elektra saga which is the beginning of their future battles (where the characters get more development) just liek it is in the film.

Have you even read the comics? Obviously not since you would know that Bullseye's power and pshycoticness is never explained. He's a mystery and his motivation starts of as money. It then becomes a personal vendetta as DD is the first person he has come across where his powers are not effective. Were does this idea come from...oh the comics.

She has no link to Bullseye, Foggy or Kingpin (other than her father) so it's not necessary to cover that. The relationships she does have are covered.

Technically there are three bad guys in Returns since Max Shrek plays quite a role.

What is Natchios going to keep the flower for? To look pretty? :rolleyes: You're grasping at straws mate.

You do realise that Fisk was the Kingpin back then? He killed who he was told to kill and that was it. Doesn't point after point of just showing how little you actually understand of the comics and the movie just get embarassing?

Knowing how American media works I wouldn't be that surprised but I'm sure he's not the only one. However he's evidently the only one with an active intrest in these types of rumours.

Note to self: learn to ignore stupid posts

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Note to self: learn to ignore stupid posts

Then how will you reference yourself?

Also, how come one of Fisk's employees doesn't recognize that being given rose equals impending doom? Or does he pick and choose his mementos?

Kingpin was not just motivated by "self presevation and business intrests", there was also the small matter of his wife (remember that bit of Frank Miller characterization? Sure as hell wasn't in the movie, giving us the cliched crime lord. There've been Bond villains with more motivation then Movie Kingpin), his complex relationship with Daredevil and trying to corrupt him, etc.

I know Kingpin was just a thug back then (apparently you don't, or is that just ANOTHER typo), but if that's his trademark (as Ben Urich says)... oh, forget it. It's obviously just a stupid excuse for Bullseye to want to kill Elektra. Speaking of which, why did he look for her on a ROOFTOP, of all places?

Yes, we are supposed to cheer DD on. That's the point of the fight scene, the quip, etc. The rapist is a stock villain and he falls like a domino, perfectly cliched, perfectly boring. And Daredevil does NOT take revenge in general (especially not on generic thugs), he brings people to justice. He's NOT the Punisher, which is why he doesn't kill people. You could count on one hand the amount of times he's gone after someone for revenge.

Kingpin and Bullseye's feuds with Daredevil were already documented prior to the Elektra Saga (and need I mention that both Bullseye and Kingpin were introduced without origins by, shall we say, 'lesser talents' then Frank Miller. That's why in MWF we get an 'origin' of Kingpin, but don't go into mugh detail, keeping him mysterious.) So, for the length of the movie it's like we're watching an origin story with Bullseye and Kingpin, then for the last act we suddenly have Elektra.

You're the pretender if you think the Elektra saga was the introduction to either Kingpin or Bullseye. It's like saying Grant Morrision invented Magneto in New X-Men 14-something because that was the first time that particular writer wrote him.

Oh, and Max Shrek wasn't exactly a major villain. Where was his fight scene with Batman? Would you believe Elektra, Bullseye, AND Kingpin all have fights with Daredevil IN A ROW?

Oh, and why does Elektra learn kung-fu? To defend herself? Then why does she have bodyguards? How many heiresses in the world have that much self-defense training? Or did I miss Paris Hilton jumping from rooftop to rooftop and throwing sais?

[Quentin Black]

Wow, witty. I know you are but what am I :rolleyes:

Hmmmm, yes Natchios was just hanging around at the party. Of course he recognised what it meant, why the hell do you think he was in such a hurry to leave the city? My god, you must have trouble following films.

Note most of the character depth of Kingpin develops after the Elektra saga, their first meeting. His wife is superflous for an introduction. I mean if we really wanted to be picky we should talk about Gwen Stacy or Beast.

They're all trained at tracking people and if one of them is on the roofs the others are going to join them quickly. Not a hard concept to grasp.

The quip is not meant for us to cheer him on. Do you not get anything? You feel pleasure from the victory but you feel disgust when you see what is going to happen, especially when DD is gloating. He started off doing the things he did for the wrong reasons and came very close to becoming a full blown bad guy, something that Frank Miller stated. He pretty much exists in the grey and it is the contrast between black and white which makes him interesting. The end of Hardcore shows that.

Having problems reading now? I never said it was the introduction of Bullseye for a start and it is the introduction of Kingpin in to Daredevil's life. Before that he was a B villian for Spidey with little fleshed out character (as admitted by the creator and people who used him). He moved to DD, got introduced in the Elektra saga and starting getting all this character development, especially in 3 key DD TPBs, afterwards. Obviosuly as a pretender you wouldn't know much about this.

You don't really need to show a fight for him to be a major villian. You still need just as much character put in there. Reminds me of Hardcore, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Paris Hilton's father doesn't happen to be connected to a deadly criminal. Why wouldn't she have bodyguards? It's not like Natchios can't afford them. She knew kung-fu in the comics yet still had bodyguards. Why would Prince Nassem, lightweight boxing champion have bodyguards?

Nitpicking? Grasping for straws? Run out of decent points? :rolleyes:

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Wow, witty. I know you are but what am I :rolleyes:

Hmmmm, yes Natchios was just hanging around at the party. Of course he recognised what it meant, why the hell do you think he was in such a hurry to leave the city? My god, you must have trouble following films.

Note most of the character depth of Kingpin develops after the Elektra saga, their first meeting. His wife is superflous for an introduction. I mean if we really wanted to be picky we should talk about Gwen Stacy or Beast.

They're all trained at tracking people and if one of them is on the roofs the others are going to join them quickly. Not a hard concept to grasp.

The quip is not meant for us to cheer him on. Do you not get anything? You feel pleasure from the victory but you feel disgust when you see what is going to happen, especially when DD is gloating. He started off doing the things he did for the wrong reasons and came very close to becoming a full blown bad guy, something that Frank Miller stated. He pretty much exists in the grey and it is the contrast between black and white which makes him interesting. The end of Hardcore shows that.

Having problems reading now? I never said it was the introduction of Bullseye for a start and it is the introduction of Kingpin in to Daredevil's life. Before that he was a B villian for Spidey with little fleshed out character (as admitted by the creator and people who used him). He moved to DD, got introduced in the Elektra saga and starting getting all this character development, especially in 3 key DD TPBs, afterwards. Obviosuly as a pretender you wouldn't know much about this.

You don't really need to show a fight for him to be a major villian. You still need just as much character put in there. Reminds me of Hardcore, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Paris Hilton's father doesn't happen to be connected to a deadly criminal. Why wouldn't she have bodyguards? It's not like Natchios can't afford them. She knew kung-fu in the comics yet still had bodyguards. Why would Prince Nassem, lightweight boxing champion have bodyguards?

Nitpicking? Grasping for straws? Run out of decent points? :rolleyes:

Elektra's trained at tracking people? Do they throw that in at self-defense training? I would also like to know how many self-defense courses train you to use in sais. Making this even more ridiculous is that the Elektra spin-off is going to have Stick and the Hand.

Bullseye and Kingpin WERE already introduced prior to the Elektra Saga. As were Daredevil, Foggy, etc. Sure, they were fleshed out, but that's because of Frank Miller's skills as a writer, not because of an essential need to be linked to Elektra. Kingpin's wife 'dying' and him becoming the Kingpin of Crime once again barely had anything to do with Elektra. In fact, Frank Miller's first Bullseye issue DIDN'T EVEN FEATURE ELEKTRA!

If MSJ really wanted to do the Elektra Saga justice, the first Daredevil movie wouldn't even have featured her.

The Elektra Saga was 14 issues (not counting her resurrection), over a year's worth of comics. It featured things like Elektra being an assassin, Elektra becoming Kingpin's right-hand man (replacing Bullseye), and Kingpin's wife. How this had anything to do with what we GOT in the movie is anyone's guess. I keep thinking MSJ was very drowsy when he heard about the Elektra saga.

"So, Elektra's father was killed, driving her to be this kung-fu assassin..."

MSJ falls asleep, then awakes with a start.

"So then he went after Daredevil, but couldn't kill him because he was her love, Matt Murdock, and then Bullseye killed her."

Hmmm, if the new Catwoman movie is CINO (Catwoman In Name Only), that must make Daredevil Elektra Saga In Name Only (ESINO). Glad we've got that cleared up.

[Zev]

FIVE-MINUTE DAREDEVIL PART 3, THE "I HAVE ALLERGIES, SO I'M ABOUT TO SIT MY ASS DOWN ON THE COUCH, EAT PIZZA, AND WATCH TOMBSTONE" EDITION.

We pan up the side of a building (just like in Batman for Jack Palance's character) to see Kingpin. Some generic rap song about being a dirty dog (because he's a GANGSTA, you see) is playing and Kingpin is posed with his cane in between his legs, like no one ever stands in real-life unless they think it makes them look cool, when in reality they just look like tools.

KINGPIN: Bwahahahaha! Look at me! I'm really big, so I must be scary! Bwahaha!

WESLEY: Sir, your lieutenants are here to see you.

The lieutenants pile in, NATCHIOS (Elektra's father. IT ALL TIES TOGETHER!) is one of them.

NATCHIOS: Good news, sir. No one believes there could be one person responsible for all the major crimes in a city, even though there have been such real-life crime lords as Carlo Gambino, John Gotti and Boss Tweed.

KINGPIN: Good. It would take some kind of 'superhero' to bring us down. This hypothetical 'foe of evil' would have to be relentless and possibly red-garbed. But not in leather, otherwise he would look like an Xtreme version of the Kool-Aid Man.

DAREDEVIL: (busting through wall) OH YEAH!

NATCHIOS: Well, that was disconcerting. Listen, I was around for Year One in Falcone's day. I know not to stick in the rackets once you hear about some shadowy hero. I'm dropping out.

KINGPIN: Oh yes. You're going to drop out alright. MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

NATCHIOS: Was I supposed to fall to my doom or something?

KINGPIN: Oh, sorry, that's going to be Bullseye. Just like Joker in Batman. Now then. You wanted to get out of the evil business for no real reason.

NATCHIOS: I never said that. The WB made me a very good offer!

KINGPIN: Well. The press wants to know who's Kingpin, we'll give them a Kingpin. A DEAD Kingpin!

WESLEY: No! Don't commit suicide!

NATCHIOS: I'm still right here.

***

SPIDER-MAN: Wow, what a coincidence that Natchios is leaving just as his daughter falls in love with you.

DAREDEVIL: Yeah, anyway...

Suddenly, a giant racket comes from the outside of the church. JUGGERNAUT, his head twisted 180 degrees, flies through the door. A midget-sized, bean-shaped creature floats through the door.

PRIEST: Hey! It's Doop!

DOOP: sodjgnbo[fdash

SPIDER-MAN: Wow. I thought for sure Wolverine or Punisher would show up.

DOOP: asdgjbsfgcxxb

SPIDER-MAN: Well, if that's the case, I can see why they wouldn't be here!

DOOP: sagjbsfgujxcv

DAREDEVIL: What? He's just saying gibberish.

SPIDER-MAN: No he's not. He's speaking perfect English.

DOOP: sdfgoiuhfhoj

SPIDER-MAN: Of course. As comic book characters grow apart from their source, they hear less and less of Doop. Why, during the Clone Saga, I couldn't understand him either.

DOOP: sdfhgjbnxcbucvvv

SPIDER-MAN: You shouldn't say that about Quentin Black. His relationship with his mother is his own business.

DOOP: adguodvhdgjhusfgjcvjhndztju

SPIDER-MAN: My daughter? I don't have a daughter!

DOOP: ashfonbucvbjjjj!

SPIDER-MAN: Trouble? In the future?

DOOP: adgfuojbcxbjjjadg[ojojbbzxcbzsfdh

SPIDER-MAN: Good God! Sorry guys, I've gotta go back.

DAREDEVIL: Back? Back where?

DOOP: BaCK... tO tHe FUtuRe!

DAREDEVIL: Don't say it so loud. You'll wake the whole neighborhood.

ELEKTRA: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Spider-Man and Doop run out. There's a bright flash and Spider-Man walks back in, followed by SPIDER-GIRL.

SPIDER-MAN: And THIS is Daddy's rival.

SPIDER-GIRL: Ah, the jackass.

SPIDER-MAN: Yes. As I remember, before I fought with Dr. Doom, met Captain Britain, and for a strange interlude fought side-by-side with Dormammu against the Brood, he was telling us about his movie.

SPIDER-GIRL: Daredevil? Ah yes, we studied it in Film Critique 101. We had to write an essay about all the pointless changes from the comic to the screen.

PRIEST: What'd you make?

SPIDER-GIRL: I pointed out how Daredevil doesn't kill and cross-referenced it with another essay about how Man Without Fear isn't canon. That got me an A!

SPIDER-MAN: That's my girl!

He gives Spider-Girl a hug.

DAREDEVIL: A loving daughter. Something I can never have.

PRIEST: Why not? You and Elektra seemed to be getting along great. In a few months or so, I'm sure you'd have a healthy relationship.

DAREDEVIL: Ha!

***

ELEKTRA: (Hey, there's Matt. I bet I can surprise him...) Sneak sneak sneak...

MATT: Hi Elektra.

ELEKTRA: WOW! Bza-frtzz-jop! Don't do that!

MATT: Wanna know how I did it?

ELEKTRA: Yes, actually.

MATT: I'll tell you if you go on a date with me.

ELEKTRA: O-tay!

"Raindrops keep falling on my head" plays as we get a montage of Matt and Elektra buying cotton candy, riding on a Merry-Go-Round, screaming on a roller-coaster, posing with a scantily-clad 'superheroine', getting matching tattoos, walking out of a screening of Platoon laughing, etc.

SPIDER-MAN: You know, I'm starting to worry that your soundtrack is going to date your movie.

DAREDEVIL: Shut up! You're talking over the barbershop quartet!

ELEKTRA: I had a great time at the carnival, Matt.

MATT: What carnival? That was Times Square!

ELEKTRA: Wow, Rudy really did clean it up! Too bad about the porno theaters. I'm not unable to indulge my fetish for rooftop sex.

MATT: That's funny, because there's something really cool on the top of the restored gym where I live.

ELEKTRA: All the gym socks you hung out to dry?

MATT: Besides that.

***

SPIDER-GIRL: So, anyway, the reason their relationship worked in the original comics was that it didn't profess to show every moment of their relationship. We could 'fill in the blanks'.

SPIDER-MAN: Just like Anakin and Padme in Attack Of The Clones.

SPIDER-GIRL: Exactly. But here, we're supposed to believe they're soulmates from what amounts to a one-night stand. It just happens too fast. He seems to be solely interested in her for her looks and she for his fighting prowess.

DAREDEVIL: There's a good explanation for that!

SPIDER-GIRL: Really?

DAREDEVIL: Yeah... she's Jennifer Garner

SPIDER-GIRL: By the way, how do mommies and daddies have babies?

SPIDER-MAN: Well, uh, I, err...

SPIDER-GIRL: Just kidding! Future You already told me!

SPIDER-MAN: Great, now I have something to dread.

SPIDER-GIRL: You already have Venom.

SPIDER-MAN: Who?

SPIDER-GIRL: Oh, nothing. Word to the wise: If you see the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, and Captain America all in the same place, run.

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Somebody call our name?

Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man walk in.

DAREDEVIL: You here to hear about my movie too?

IRON MAN: No, we're just here for the service.

CAPTAIN AMERICA: I can't get into moving pictures. I prefer a good book.

THOR: And the son of Odin doth misunderstand thy 'books'. His prowess lies in yonder papyrus scrolls!

DAREDEVIL: Right. Anyway, where was I?

***

Daredevil is swinging through the city, carrying Elektra in one arm.

DAREDEVIL: Can you read my mind?

THOR: That be Superman.

PRIEST: I thought you didn't know movies.

CAPTAIN: If some schmuck grabs his hammer and blabs about 'different power levels', you bet he wants to know about it.

THOR: Aye. The Lord of Asgard looks forward with vigor to thy 'rematch'.

DAREDEVIL: Anyhoo...

***

ELEKTRA: Looks like it's going to rain. We'd better go inside.

MATT: Wait. Don't.

ELEKTRA: What, you want the raindrops to give you a 'picture' of me? I thought you could already see, even though you're blind.

MATT: Actually, I just wanted to see you with a white T-shirt soaking wet.

ELEKTRA: I'm not wearing a white T-shirt.

MATT: Who's telling this story? I've never felt this way before. About anyone. Not even Karen Page. Or Heather Glenn. Or... sorry. Anyway, I love you, girl. I want tonight to be special.

WOMAN: Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

ELEKTRA: Aren't you going to save her?

MATT: I would, but SMOOCH!

They're suddenly having sex in Matt's bedroom.

SPIDER-GIRL: Groody!

DAREDEVIL: Is that a good thing?

The foreground blurs and we focus on the fireplace. Then track up to another blazing fireplace. Then sideways to the window, where it's raining heavily. Then back again to Matt and Elektra.

MATT: I swear, that's never happened to me before.

***

SPIDER-MAN: So, you just let some crime go unanswered? What the hell kind of superhero are you?

CAPTAIN AMERICA: He's right. Avengers By-Law 017-F, Paragraph-C, CLEARLY states that to be a superhero, each prospective superhero must abandon significant other to avert crime or other crisis.

DAREDEVIL: Yeah? Well, we did it. So there.

SPIDER-MAN: Fine. Move on.

DAREDEVIL: Okay...







DAREDEVIL: She gave me head.

SPIDER-MAN: Stop lying and get on with the story!

DAREDEVIL: Okay. In a wacky turn of events, it turns out that the woman was raped. And that the rapist was none other then Jose Quesada (and how do you like us 'honoring' someone by naming a rapist after him?), who I would kill for the selfsame crime.

SPIDER-MAN: But that makes no SENSE!

DAREDEVIL: Does it? Watch Big Fish and get back to me.

SPIDER-GIRL: Dad, your rival sucks.

SPIDER-MAN: Now, now. Don't say that until you've read something by Frank Miller. Or Brian Michael Bendis.

SPIDER-GIRL: I've read Sin City and Jinx and Daredevil STILL sucks.

SPIDER-MAN: I meant one of their works on Daredevil.

SPIDER-GIRL: Ah. By the way, what's a clitoris?

Spider-Man does a Rodney Dangerfield tug on his collar.

SPIDER-MAN: Humina humina humina...

DAREDEVIL: Hell if I know, kid.




DAREDEVIL: She swallowed.

SPIDER-MAN: STOP THAT!

[Zev]

By the way Quentin...

Saying they should have made a MwF movie is what everyone who hasn't read up on his DD says they should have done for a first film when the mini-series contradicts the original and also is only a mediocre DD story.

Suck it down. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105779)

Quentin admitted MWF violated continuity, Quentin admitted MWF violated continuity...

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by Zev
Well, you sure put me in my place. :rolleyes:


well i was putting it lightly, you are an assh0le who everyone cannot stand, i havent read one thread that you have posted something and havent pissed everyone off. You dont see the VALUE of one's opinion. EVERY person sees things differently. Not everyone says things your retarted phucked up way. To be frank and to sum you up in one word. TROLL... you and BKB111 are TROLLS.

Get a life and realize that comics and superheroes arent life man.
(unless you work for a comic company, which you CLEARLY dont have the intelligence to.)

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Elektra's trained at tracking people? Do they throw that in at self-defense training? I would also like to know how many self-defense courses train you to use in sais. Making this even more ridiculous is that the Elektra spin-off is going to have Stick and the Hand.

Bullseye and Kingpin WERE already introduced prior to the Elektra Saga. As were Daredevil, Foggy, etc. Sure, they were fleshed out, but that's because of Frank Miller's skills as a writer, not because of an essential need to be linked to Elektra. Kingpin's wife 'dying' and him becoming the Kingpin of Crime once again barely had anything to do with Elektra. In fact, Frank Miller's first Bullseye issue DIDN'T EVEN FEATURE ELEKTRA!

If MSJ really wanted to do the Elektra Saga justice, the first Daredevil movie wouldn't even have featured her.

The Elektra Saga was 14 issues (not counting her resurrection), over a year's worth of comics. It featured things like Elektra being an assassin, Elektra becoming Kingpin's right-hand man (replacing Bullseye), and Kingpin's wife. How this had anything to do with what we GOT in the movie is anyone's guess. I keep thinking MSJ was very drowsy when he heard about the Elektra saga.

"So, Elektra's father was killed, driving her to be this kung-fu assassin..."

MSJ falls asleep, then awakes with a start.

"So then he went after Daredevil, but couldn't kill him because he was her love, Matt Murdock, and then Bullseye killed her."

Hmmm, if the new Catwoman movie is CINO (Catwoman In Name Only), that must make Daredevil Elektra Saga In Name Only (ESINO). Glad we've got that cleared up.

She hasn't done a self defense course. She's trained with different masters. Do you even follow films or are you just stupid? Wait...I already know the answer.

You really are clueless aren't you. Firstly I never claimed Bullseye was introduced during the saga. Secondly Kingpin did not appear in Daredevil before the saga. He only appeared as a B villian in Spiderman. Frank Miller's first ever DD was 168, the appearance of Elektra and he introduced Kingpin and brought in Bullseye midway through the saga to play the characters off each other up until issue 181, when Bullseye kills Elektra. This is the primary section that the film portrays. Learn to do you research. That way you prevent making yourself look like an idiot next time.

Yes because the Elektra saga really works without Elektra :rolleyes:

You must have not read the saga considering that if you did you would know that there is no underlying specific story to be portrayed since it is more about DD and his relationship with Elektra and how the four characters of Daredevil, Elektra, Kingpin and Bullseye play off each other. No one is going to adapt individual issues and the film worked well in showing the main points of how Elektra had an effect in Matt Murdock's life as well as how the characters played off each other. Please stop pretending to know what you're going on about since it is clear you don't have an clue in hell.

Let me ask you don't you get tired of trolling making nitpick after nitpick, criticisms that show to anyone with a few brain cells how little you understood about the film, claims of how unfaithful the film is which just shows how little you understand the comics, grasping at straws at making much ado about very inconsequential things. I have proven every point of yours wrong with information from the comics and just general knowledge yet you still come back for more. This is why idiots are so hard to argue against.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

well Quentin Black as I said he is a TROLL

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
By the way Quentin...



Suck it down. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105779)

Quentin admitted MWF violated continuity, Quentin admitted MWF violated continuity...

I guess I should add 'reading comprehension' to the long list of things you can't seem to do.

I always said there were parts, primarily the portrayal of Elektra, which contradict continuity and therefore would make an unsuitable introduction movie. However it's addition to continuity is undeniable, especially the depth added to Matt's character through his actions in it. Nothing in that post or an of my other posts goes against what I've always said.

"gives a bit off insight in to what makes Matt tick"

Do you enjoy taking potshots where you can...? It only makes you look like and idiot considering your lack of comprehension of even the most basic things.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Ok, Quentin.. im trying to get you to understand he DOESNT think the same way you or I do...he's a lil arrogant piece of **** troll
NO MATTER what you say, he wont realize he was/is wrong

[Quentin Black]

That's the problem. I have an undeniable urge to correct incorrect posts by not so intelligent people as I don't like people to carry on with incorrect knowledge. Yes, I should learn to ignore stupid posts...

[Nightwing: Endgame]

i know, im The SAME way man... i also HATE when people FLAME others for their opinions.. that really pisses me off

[Herr Logan]

Zev, have you read any "Twisted Toyfare Theater"? That's right up your alley. Rock on, Zev. :up:

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
well i was putting it lightly, you are an assh0le who everyone cannot stand, i havent read one thread that you have posted something and havent pissed everyone off. You dont see the VALUE of one's opinion. EVERY person sees things differently. Not everyone says things your retarted phucked up way. To be frank and to sum you up in one word. TROLL... you and BKB111 are TROLLS.

Get a life and realize that comics and superheroes arent life man.
(unless you work for a comic company, which you CLEARLY dont have the intelligence to.)

Well, I guess the above was one of the multitude I have pissed off. Jesus, Quentin, I keep racking up public support and your own friends are goons like this. Must be disheartening. Oh, well, you always have Daredevil for company.

And RaginCajun, let me put this in small words so you can understand. Go douche your mangina.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

excuse me?? small words.I have a 3.5 gpa thank you very much and a steady girlfriend of 3 years, more than you can say you c0cksmoker...so let me put this in terms YOU can understand
You are a phuckin fagg0t with no life,you are a troll,your probably a little highschool, probably still a virgin...guys dont count Zev sorry. you probably whack off to Comic Book chicks,to make a long story short Eat a C0ck Fagg0t and go away No one likes You

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Well, I guess the above was one of the multitude I have pissed off. Jesus, Quentin, I keep racking up public support and your own friends are goons like this. Must be disheartening. Oh, well, you always have Daredevil for company.

And RaginCajun, let me put this in small words so you can understand. Go douche your mangina.

Wow, no more weak nitpicks or grasping at straws? I guess getting shown how your points are incorrect time and time again must get pretty embarassing.

Oh woe is me, two people agreed with you despite both of them not having a clue about the comics or things like forensics or law either. Sadly I'm a bit too intelligent to discussions as a popularity contest as if we were in some American high school. I also have to much of a life to care whether strangers I will never meet think I'm wrong or right since at the end of it I know I'm right, you're wrong and I'm smarter than you. :)

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
excuse me?? small words.I have a 3.5 gpa thank you very much and a steady girlfriend of 3 years, more than you can say you c0cksmoker...so let me put this in terms YOU can understand
You are a phuckin fagg0t with no life,you are a troll,your probably a little highschool, probably still a virgin...guys dont count Zev sorry. you probably whack off to Comic Book chicks,to make a long story short Eat a C0ck Fagg0t and go away No one likes You

Quentin, you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps. Take RaginCajun for example. He apparently thinks that attacking one's sexual preference is the highest form of insult, instead of a signed admission of homophobia. He does not know how to capitalize, nor the rules of syntax or grammar.

Go to the Catwoman forum. One extremely intelligent poster, A1Ant, thinks Catwoman is going to be good. However, his fellow supporters defend it exclusively with statements like 'u r gay' and 'Halle is haut'. So what is someone supposed to think when they see that the entire defense of Daredevil consists of one snotty punk and a homophobic infant with the mouth of a retarded teamster?

I only see it as a version of his origin, much like Ultimate DD and Elektra or Daredevil Yellow, different views of the same story making his origin legendary. It's however doesn't work as the sole basis for his origin.

You keep saying Daredevil killed in the comics. He didn't. It's like Spider-Man strapping on an M-60 and mowing down the Green Goblin.

The Crow 'homage'. Since when does a hero, who tries to keep himself in the dark like an 'urban legend', leave ^_^^_^^_^^_^ like this? MSJ admitted on the commentary track that he only put it in there because it 'looked cool'. Congrats, The Crow, your style has triumphed over Daredevil's substance.

The nu-metal in Elektra's already stupid training scene. In a dark, noir-like film (supposedly), why is Evanescense playing? It dates the film, makes it feel like pandering to the MTV crowd (which it is), and generally sucks. You don't play the Pet Shop Boys during Bogart movies, do you?

The contrast between the 'dark and gritty' human hero and the over-the-top, Spider-Man wannabe fight scenes (which are riff with so much darkness and jump-cuts you can't tell what's going on).

Elektra nothing at all like her comics counterpart. Not even a Greek accent. The costume is completely different, the story is completely different.

The Coolio subplot left on the cutting room floor. I'd much rather have that in its place in the Kingpin Vs. Daredevil plot then the business of Elektra crammed into a two-hour movie (that already has to deal with Bullseye, Kingpin, Daredevil, Matt Murdock, Jack Murdock, Foggy, Ben Urich, etc).

The crappy effects.

The leather costumes.

Everyone being able to hurdle tall buildings despite having no superpowers. (for another example of a crappy movie where a non-superpowered hero gets superpowers from the studio, see Catwoman)

The horrid music.

The 48 hours love story.

The stupidity of Daredevil (who earlier was a realisticly pill-popping hero), pulling a sai out of his chest, dodging ALL of Bullseye's stained glass shards from three feet away in a straight line, and then going on to fight Kingpin and WIN (go read Born Again. He did the exact same thing in a similar state and LOST.)

The coda, which is ripped-off from Batman Returns.

The overly showy fight scene between Matt and the bullies.

Elektra, DD, and Bullseye all finding each other on the same roof.

Bullseye being called from Ireland to take out ECLF.

Daredevil leaving his mask at Kingpin's pad (only for an arty shot of his mask and the rose petals. Hope no one sees you on your way home, Matt!).

Kingpin killed Daredevil's father. Rip-off of Batman and stupid. What, Daredevil didn't have enough reasons to go after Kingpin? Guess what, Matt? He also raped your sister, shot your dog, took your job, peed in your pool, burned your house down, hooked your nephew on drugs, and stole your Bible!

Matt staying with Elektra instead of going to fight crime. MSJ admitted that this was due to studio interference, yet Quentin Black still defends it? Why?

RaginCajun thinking I'm a troll that no one likes. Go over here and tell me that again, loser. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3227363#post3227363)

Quentin Black thinking he's smarter then everyone else, not realizing that being intelligent and liking Daredevil is mutually exclusive.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zev
[B]Quentin, you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps. Take RaginCajun for example. He apparently thinks that attacking one's sexual preference is the highest form of insult, instead of a signed admission of homophobia. He does not know how to capitalize, nor the rules of syntax or grammar.

Go to the Catwoman forum. One extremely intelligent poster, A1Ant, thinks Catwoman is going to be good. However, his fellow supporters defend it exclusively with statements like 'u r gay' and 'Halle is haut'. So what is someone supposed to think when they see that the entire defense of Daredevil consists of one snotty punk and a homophobic infant with the mouth of a retarded teamster?

OK you assh0le... I've had enough of this childish ****..Get a phuckin life you loser. Why dont you just piss off and go away NO ONE likes you. Why are you here ? Why do you respond ? Just go away You are a scum sucking douchebag who probably beats off to comic and wrestling chicks, you SERIOUSLY need a hobbie man. Get a girlfriend. Or a guy...whichever you prefer.

[Zev]

*Deep breath*

I'm exhausted. I think I'll let Quentin handle the next few.


It was Butchered by the FOX editors.

They should have used Parkour instead of CGI.

It should have been longer.

A few misplaced bits of dialogue.

FOX should have given more freedom to MSJ.


Thanks Quentin. Now then, where was I?

Young Matt backflips and kicks a bully.

Playground fight. This is the gritty, realistic superhero movie?

Wire-fu. "It worked for the Matrix and it'll work for us!' No, it won't.

Matt's a failure as a superhero. He can't save Elektra and can't save ECLF. He barely defeats the rapist, Bullseye, and Kingpin. Spider-Man was basically undefeated in his movie, so when the Green Goblin came along, it was a big deal. Daredevil always relies on some last minute Deus Ex Machina (the sprinkler system, the sniper, suddenly recovering from the subway train).

Matt gets out of his sense-deprivation tank and immediately turns on some crappy grunge rock or something at full blast.

Matt prosecutes.

Bullseye able to impale ECLF with Daredevil's baton from some distance away.

Daredevil then able to use a second(?) baton to escape from Elektra.

Daredevil shows up at Ben Urich's workplace for some reason. Ben Urich says 'Go get 'im Matt'. Cheesy... as... hell.

Matt teaches himself kung-fu. If ever a movie REALLY needed Stick...

Needs some mythical R-rated Director's Cut to become a good movie. No. Director's Cuts should make good movies BETTER or offer an alternate perspective. They should not make someone pay twice to get the movie they should've gotten in the first place.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

ZEV i hate 2 say it but you have a COUPLE of decent points about Daredevil, i didnt care 4 the movie much, but you do have SOME valid points

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
OK you assh0le... I've had enough of this childish ****..Get a phuckin life you loser. Why dont you just piss off and go away NO ONE likes you. Why are you here ? Why do you respond ? Just go away You are a scum sucking douchebag who probably beats off to comic and wrestling chicks, you SERIOUSLY need a hobbie man. Get a girlfriend. Or a guy...whichever you prefer.

Hey, RaginCajun? Your foul-mouthed little brother got on the computer while you were away. Tell him he's missing Yu-Gi-Oh.

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
ZEV i hate 2 say it but you have a COUPLE of decent points about Daredevil, i didnt care 4 the movie much, but you do have SOME valid points

Congratulations. You're a bigger man then Quentin "I see NUTHING wrong with Daredevil. NUTHING!" Black.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by Zev
Congratulations. You're a bigger man then Quentin "I see NUTHING wrong with Daredevil. NUTHING!" Black.

:daredevil was watchable..someone bought it for me as a bday gift..i watched it once and i havent looked @ it since...it COULD have been really good. But it was ehhh not so good

[Quentin Black]

Wow, you really are so pathetic you do seem to think it is a popularity contest. I don't care who supports me or not or whther they can make a decent arguement or not. You evidently can't but you disguise it with nitpicks, crude potshots and nonexistant problems or problems that all the other films have.

You don't seem to be able to read. DD has killed in the comics. The death of fixer alone is murder two.

Films are there to visually entertain and the test audience all thought it was great symbolically. That is the only reason why MSJ kept it in.

I personally thought it made nice accompanying piece of music. You don't seem to know your music either since it isn't 'nu-metal'. I see Fight Club, Matrix, Blade and all those other movies must be terrible since they used the music of the time too. :rolleyes:

You'd have to be stupid...(sorry, I keep forgetting who I'm talking to, you are stupid) to not be able to follow the fight scenes. They were nothing like Spideys since they actually contained violence and *shock horror* punches. They weren't also watered down for little kids.

The costume was different but you forgot to mention the most important thing the character, was spot on. Where as most of the other comic films the characters (Especially Spidey) weren't even close.

Yes it was rushed (thanks to the studios) but is still a lot more faithful and still works as a film.

Yes, crappy effects have applied to Spidey, Blade, Hulk...so they're terrible aren't they :rolleyes:. Unlike Spidey and Hulk DD's success didn't depend on CGI.

Yes, shocking costumes despite the fact that X-men changed the costumes even more drastically. That must be terrible too :rolleyes:

Firstly they explain this. Secondly it happens all the time in the comics, as I have already told you. Did you actually do any reading comprehension when you were at school?

I liked the music and although I apreciate it is not to everyone's taste everybody uses as a pivot for their arguements when they probably only remember two songs.

They, like many movies, never actually make a clear time line. Your 48 hour timeline is out.

Elderly women in real life have lifted vans to save their husbands in accidents. That is the power of adrenaline. If you don't believe me search for "Donna Stilwell" or go here (http://www.metimes.com/2K2/issue2002-10/eg/only_in_egypt.htm ) for Mrs. Rateb's story. Go and read Hardcore. He does a similar thing and WINS.

Yes, despite the fact that it is a part of the comics a decade or two before Batman Returns.

Apart from the shaky effects I don't see the problem.

A trained assasin who's job is to find and kill two people, a person with supersenses who is looking for someone and trained fighter who has trained with various different masters. They don't even arrive at the same time. Don't you get tired of nitpicking?

Follow the story. He got called from England. He's obviously one of the best so I don't see the problem with Kingpin calling him. It's not like he can't afford it. You're grasping again.

You seemed to have missed the point of the matter (as you do with most things). He has no fear of Kingpin, it's not like he has to protect his identity from him either. He's going to be bounding on the rooftops so I dubt anyone will see him. It's not as worse as a civilan Peter Parker bounding from building to building and swinging overhead in broad daylight.

Wow, just to show how weak your point is you have to exaggerate. Good one :up: :rolleyes: As a pretender I'm not surprised you don't understand how important and personal it makes their relationship and the extra dimensions it adds to it. With only knowing he killed Elektra he would not have had so much drive and it would have been a completely different inferior film.

Actually it was approved of by MSJ. It makes the character more human and unlike most of the other comic films, is inkeeping with the character. He is not the perfect hero and follows his heart.

Again, how pathetic...Zev - ooo, I'm liked by complete stangers because I can make really bad spoofs of scripts.

Wow, you do it every post. Try to disguise the little that you know with nitpicks, crude potshots and nonexistant problems or problems that all the other films have. It's pretty clear that you don't even like the comics. So why don't you stop trolling when you didn't like the concept in the first place?

I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else. If you can't even follow simple text is it no wonder I think what I do? I said I know I'm smarter than you.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Congratulations. You're a bigger man then Quentin "I see NUTHING wrong with Daredevil. NUTHING!" Black.

Actually as you have show a few posts before hand I have never claimed the film to be flawless. It's just vastly better than the other comic films.

[Quentin Black]

More nitpicks? Wow, you are on a roll :rolleyes:

We've been over this.

A scene that is in keeping with the comicy and flirty tone of the lighter side of the comics and how Matt and Elektra first met. More inconspicuous than a weakling sending a guy twenty foot backwards with a crowd of teens around them.

Erm, this is exactly how he is in the comics. Oh wait you're just a pretender who can only nitpick non existant problems. If you want Mr.invincible for kids go and watch another comic film.

Better than listening to street sounds or other peoples conversations. Again you show how little you know about music.

Yes, he does, just like lawyers do in real life and he does...in the comics!

Hmm, just like he does in the comics. It's a comic film, what do you expect? I guess we should all complain that the theory behind drastic mutations isn't actually true or the fact that radiation doesn't give you powers or the fact that organic webbing would theoretically come out through his ass :rolleyes:

The guy has two, one for throwing and one for grappling. The actual way his club functions is unclear but who actual cares? Nitpicking is weak.

It could get cheesier such as..."This is my curse, this is my responsibility, I'm Spiderman!" Spidey says in a golden sunset with the American flag in the foreground.

Ever heard of Bruce Lee?

Nope it's very good as it is.

[Mastermold]

I will never figure out for the life of me why so many people hate Daredevil. I don't feel like arguing about it, but that movie was awesome...my only real complaint was that it was too short.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black

You don't seem to be able to read. DD has killed in the comics. The death of fixer alone is murder two.

Have you checked the polls? 85% think that the Fixer's death WASN'T murder.

Films are there to visually entertain and the test audience all thought it was great symbolically. That is the only reason why MSJ kept it in.

If the test audience all jumped off a bridge, would you? Next thing you know, Daredevil will be carving DDs into people's chests and having a Dare-Signal.



I personally thought it made nice accompanying piece of music. You don't seem to know your music either since it isn't 'nu-metal'. I see Fight Club, Matrix, Blade and all those other movies must be terrible since they used the music of the time too. :rolleyes:

Those were all made by people who were actually TALENTED. Daredevil is supposed to be a hardcore noir movie, why do we have a crappy music video? You would defend the Vengaboys' "We Love To Party" playing during the Kingpin fight.

You'd have to be stupid...(sorry, I keep forgetting who I'm talking to, you are stupid) to not be able to follow the fight scenes. They were nothing like Spideys since they actually contained violence and *shock horror* punches. They weren't also watered down for little kids.


One of these things, is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...

A. "Was that really necessary?"
"Necessary? No. It was fun."

B. "Another rapist loose on the streets."

C. "Does every guy have to go through this to get your name?"
"You should try asking for my number!"


The costume was different but you forgot to mention the most important thing the character, was spot on. Where as most of the other comic films the characters (Especially Spidey) weren't even close.


Yes, because in the comics Daredevil was a leather-clad vigilante who killed people in cold blood and let crimes be committed so he could get lucky. And Elektra was an adult, American daughter of a mob boss who dressed in black leather to get revenge on Daredevil.


Yes it was rushed (thanks to the studios) but is still a lot more faithful and still works as a film.


I get the feeling you'd really love Armageddon.



Yes, crappy effects have applied to Spidey, Blade, Hulk...so they're terrible aren't they :rolleyes:. Unlike Spidey and Hulk DD's success didn't depend on CGI.


Those weren't supposed to be 'realistic' movies. Aside from Hulk, which also sucked, Spider-Man and Blade were supposed to be fun movies. Daredevil was supposed to be a serious, somber look at a real superhero, yet it had lots of wire-fu and CGI.

Yes, shocking costumes despite the fact that X-men changed the costumes even more drastically. That must be terrible too :rolleyes:


Give me a break. At most, Elektra and Daredevil have had TWO (three if you count Daredevil's armored phase) costumes, but we all know the most memorable ones.

Go here and name for me the definitive costumes of the X-Men. Check under costume galleries (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/).


Firstly they explain this. Secondly it happens all the time in the comics, as I have already told you. Did you actually do any reading comprehension when you were at school?


I'm sorry, I don't know what you were talking about since you didn't quote me. Oh wait, I see now, you're talking about nonsuperpowered people jumping from building to building and in general acting like they're auditioning for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. In a 'realistic' movie.


I liked the music and although I apreciate it is not to everyone's taste everybody uses as a pivot for their arguements when they probably only remember two songs.


I remember four songs. Kingpin's 'Dirty Dog' song, Bullseye's 'Top O' The Mornin' To Ya' song, Matt turning on his radio (if the outside noises bother him so much, why not soundproof his apartment? Sure, it won't mute everything, but it will at least dull it to a managable level), and Elektra's training. They all ruined the mood, just like the playground fight.



They, like many movies, never actually make a clear time line. Your 48 hour timeline is out.



The only meetings we see between Matt is the inital encounter, the rooftop date, and the party. Given that this was supposed to be interlaced with Coolio's subplot, the timeline couldn't have been over a few months.

Elderly women in real life have lifted vans to save their husbands in accidents. That is the power of adrenaline. If you don't believe me search for "Donna Stilwell" or go here (http://www.metimes.com/2K2/issue2002-10/eg/only_in_egypt.htm ) for Mrs. Rateb's story. Go and read Hardcore. He does a similar thing and WINS.

If you don't see a difference between recovering from an attack from Typhoid Mary for a length of time, then bloodlessly beating Bullseye and going after Kingpin.

AND fighting Elektra (he gets stabbed with a sai), fighting Bullseye (loses so much blood he can't even hold on to his baton, racketed by loud noises, beaten up tons,) and then having the energy to swing around town (surely corporate juggernaut Kingpin doesn't have his lair anywhere NEAR Hell's Kitchen) and beat a seven-foot-tall bruiser.

Well, I don't know what we're talking about. Funny that adrenaline didn't come into play when he saw his girlfriend in mortal danger.


Yes, despite the fact that it is a part of the comics a decade or two before Batman Returns.


NO, it wasn't. Do you remember the issue where Matt dug up Elektra's grave and saw she was IRREVOCABLY dead? She was brought back to life a lot later. There was NO indication in the original Elektra Saga that Elektra was still alive.

Apart from the shaky effects I don't see the problem.


He taught himself kung-fu, used his cane as a kendo stick, and did a goddamn flip kick and you see NOTHING wrong with this? People as stupid as you shouldn't be allowed to breed.

A trained assasin who's job is to find and kill two people, a person with supersenses who is looking for someone and trained fighter who has trained with various different masters. They don't even arrive at the same time. Don't you get tired of nitpicking?


I can accept TWO people meeting, but three? And Bullseye is looking for Elektra on the rooftops why? And Elektra is able to hide from Daredevil by TAKING COVER BEHIND SHEETS? The man with supersenses? Jesus.


Follow the story. He got called from England. He's obviously one of the best so I don't see the problem with Kingpin calling him. It's not like he can't afford it. You're grasping again.


Hey, I'm hungry, I'm sure I could afford to order a steak tartar, but that doesn't mean I have to when a ham sandwich will do.


You seemed to have missed the point of the matter (as you do with most things). He has no fear of Kingpin, it's not like he has to protect his identity from him either. He's going to be bounding on the rooftops so I dubt anyone will see him. It's not as worse as a civilan Peter Parker bounding from building to building and swinging overhead in broad daylight.


"It's not as worse"? Peter was overcome with euphoria at discovering his powers. Daredevil was supposed to be calm and cool. Why would he leave his mask?


Wow, just to show how weak your point is you have to exaggerate. Good one :up: :rolleyes: As a pretender I'm not surprised you don't understand how important and personal it makes their relationship and the extra dimensions it adds to it. With only knowing he killed Elektra he would not have had so much drive and it would have been a completely different inferior film
.

Daredevil doesn't need any help to be an inferior film. It's called satire, I thought I already explained it to you but obviously you're a slow learner. And exactly what difference does learning that Kingpin killed Jack Murdock make?

"You killed the only two people I ever loved!"

Oh, that and the revelation that Kingpin wasn't BORN a powerful crime lord. It adds SO much.


Actually it was approved of by MSJ. It makes the character more human and unlike most of the other comic films, is inkeeping with the character. He is not the perfect hero and follows his heart.

That wasn't his HEART he was following...


Again, how pathetic...Zev - ooo, I'm liked by complete stangers because I can make really bad spoofs of scripts.


I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to someone who made the gross exaggeration that I was disliked by EVERYONE.


Wow, you do it every post. Try to disguise the little that you know with nitpicks, crude potshots and nonexistant problems or problems that all the other films have. It's pretty clear that you don't even like the comics. So why don't you stop trolling when you didn't like the concept in the first place?

I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else. If you can't even follow simple text is it no wonder I think what I do? I said I know I'm smarter than you.

You wanna go? We'll open up a poster vs. poster poll and vote on it. I'm ready when you are.

And you do claim the film is flawless. You have not acknowledged a single flaw in the film. It's always "it wasn't so bad" or "that's subjective". You defend on EVERY GODDAMN POINT.

Peter didn't know his own strength. Matt knew exactly what he was doing.

The scene in Spider-Man wasn't subtle, but it wasn't supposed to be. It fit perfectly with the movie. And at least Spider-Man kept the MTV tie-in music where it belonged... in the closing credits.

Bruce Lee.

1954-1957

Studied Wing Chun under the instruction of Yip Man. Learned as far as the second hand form and part of the wooden dummy form. Didn't finish the wooden dummy form, learn the third hand form or weapons forms. With Wong Sheun-Leung, William Cheung, and others, made Wing Chun famous in Hong Kong by winning numerous challenge matches against other martial artists.

1957-1958

Continued Wing Chun under the instruction of Wong Shun-Leung.

1957-1959

Continued Wing Chun under the instruction of William Cheung.

He made up his own form, Jeet Kune Do, on a basis of instruction he had already received. He didn't 'teach himself' anything.

That's your opinion. And it's wrong.

[KenK]

Whether you're defending the film or bashing it, I think you've all wasted inordinate amounts of time on this. God forbid you just not like something, give a quick yet constructive blurb about why, and move on. Stop being such whiny pussies!

[Nightwing: Endgame]

hahahahhahahah yea seriously.

[Herr Logan]

That means so much, after Zev laid out fairly deatailed analysis. You people just can't stand it when people use their brains, can you? You could see it as a waste of time, but people with IQs over 70 and ages over 16 know that keeping your mind sharp is never a waste of time.

RaginCajun, that's awfully funny that you'd piggyback on another person's comment about "whiny pussies." You're a raging homophobe. One can't be too much more of a pussy than that. Go ahead and let loose with your foul-mouthed little barrage of gay-bashing expletives, you simpering little child. There are people who are biologically capable of being men (which you may or may not be), and then there are people who act like it. If you haven't already dropped out (I can think of more surprising scenarios), I'm extremely unsettled by the idea of you moving on from high school.

[Quentin Black]

Says the person who thought that CSI was a realistic depiction of crimelabs and thought that, despite nearly all films with investigations in them and other superhero films having the exact same oversight, forensics in Daredevil was a huge plot hole (worse than a master criminal not doing something as basic lift up the mask of his unconscious enemy) and back tracked pretty quickly when I showed that it was not.

[Quentin Black]

This post was a little bit more detailed until my computer decided to crash.

Have you checked the law? It was murder two.

Wow, more great exaggerations :up:

The music was no better or worse. For someone who hates metal or mordern music you sure do have double standards.

Riiiight. So what you're saying is that fights don't fit in with a DD film. Good call :rolleyes:

Daredevil is a costumed vigilante (leather is more realistic than spandex) who does violent things, killed when he started out and makes a lot of mistakes usually because of his hot temper and tendancy to follow passion...just like in the comics. Elektra is a American-Greek daugther of a business man who due to the death of her father turned in to a costumed demi-villian who went against Daredevil...just like in the comics. The story is still the most faithful of all the comic films with the exception of the Crow.

Actually I didn't like it.

It is still at the end of the day a comic superhero film. MSJ still wanted the light hearted and fun side of the comics as well as the dark.

X-men's costumes were nothing like any of the iconic costumes in the comics. DD's still retains the basic look of his costume but adds in elements of a more realistic protective one too. Elektra's costume didn't take one of her iconic ones but silk red ribbon don not make good fighting clothing.

It doesn't negate the fact that this is a superhero film and that style of fighting (realistic with a handful of superhuman jumps) is still taken from the comics. First you want it faithful, then you don't want it faithful...make up your mind.

Your memory is pretty bad. Kingpin's song has nothing about 'Dirty Dog' in it. Most of the songs fit the tone of the scenes and were by relatively unknown bands. Why would Matt bother with sound proofing, both expensive and excessive when turning on some music does the same thing?

Actually burn wounds are much more painful, are harder to heal and last longer. He didn't even fully recover when he took out Bullseye, Kingpin's men and the '7 foot bruiser'. Elektra's death was a slap in the face to him and made him realise how high the stakes were, the only thing that made him get back up. Even then he went to seek sanctuary in a church in order to recover and was forced in to fighting by Bullseye who went after him.

The film is primarily based on the Elektra saga but takes parts from a lot more of the comics including when he discovered that she was still alive before she left him again only to meet up occasionally.

He slapped the kid across the face with his stick before tripping him up. You don't need training to do that. Not even the kick requires training since all it is is a kick followed by a backflip, which anybody who was fit and had his powers would have been able to do.

The third person came a lot later. If his prey is on the roof then he is going to follow. As for Elektra she didn't know what his powers were and even so the sheets offer protection from his radar. He obviously knew she was in the area and the only way she got the jump on him was because of a distraction.

Why do people buy designer clothes when regular clothes would do?

Typo, deal with it. Why would he take it? It has much less impact for him to hang around for a minute to hear out his mask and collect it and doesn't make sense since it's not like he needs to protect his identity from Kingpin, especially since the police are coming. Nobdy is going to be on the rooftops in the early morning. There's more chance of someone spotting a kid in civilian clothes bounding impposible gaps and swing over a busy street in broad daylight.

It's not satire. Satire is a little bit more sophisticated than a crude spoof. As a pretender I'm not surprised you don't know the difference the fact that Kingpin killed the single most important person in his life would make. For a start he would not have gone after Kingpin so hastily and it adds more signifcance to their relationship by making it more personal than business.

He was following his passion, derived from his heart.

As for the ending...MSJ never intended the gritty and realistic parts to negate the fact that it is still a superhero film based on a comic which has dark sides and like Spiderman, lighter sides. You're once again displaying your double standards. Or would you like the uber-realsitic DD in a hoodie beating up guys on the street version that the studio wanted? :rolleyes:

Learning how to fight using different moves is not hard, especially when you have his powers. You can learn the basics by reading books, imitating martial artists training or even talking to a martial artist. The fact that DD, like Bruce Lee, has his own style that doesn't adhere to any particular style shows that he did not teach himself any specific way of fighting. At the end of day someone had to had create it by teaching themselves martial arts and developing it in to a fighting style.

Polls seem to be your answer to everything...

"Ooooooh, let's make a poll to prove this is better than that (despite the fact that your last poll about the murder of Fixer showed that opinion can differ from fact). Oooooh, I'm so popular with strangers over the internet because I can make crude spoofs (impressive :rolleyes: ) but I'm so insecure that I need posts and polls just to prove it because I have a wannabe alpha-male complex"

Mate I don't care what a dozen strangers who don't even know me think. I know I'm smarter than you. You can't even comprehend passages of text and you even contradict yourself and change your arugment on many occasions. It's not faithful enough but then it's too faithful. You're a fan of the comics but you hate things that are taken from the comics. You even proved that I don't think the film is flawless in the post dated 05-12-2004 08:49 PM yet you then claim I do. You know very well I have a thread on what I would like to see if the trilogy restarted, which included improvements I would make. Does that mean I don't like the film? No. I have made clear logical points based on info from the comics and general knowledge yet you refuse to acknowledge them can continue to troll. You try to cover up the fact that you know very little about the film, comics and the fact that you dislike the concept, with nitpicks, non-existant problems or problems (like the costumes, lines, effects, deviations form the comics) most of the other comic films had but often worse (but since you seem to display double standards that is ok) and time and time again I would correct/explain them with points from the comics, general knowledge and common sense. Does that mean I think the film is flawless? No. Do I think it is one of the most faithful and entertaining comic movies, on par with the Crow, with a few problems that little common sense can solve? Yes. I don't mind if you don't like it for what it is but to troll with false information just gets on my nerves. So in the end what are you...ignorant, arrogant or stupid? Your choice. To be honest I am fed up of arguing with you, just from sheer bulk and expericence of idiocy and ignorance you have tired me out. I have had similar discussions before but back then I enjoyed it, despite not knowing as much about the film and comics as I do know, simply because the guy I was talking too was a little more intelligent and we left on very good terms. Sadly this will not be the case here.

[KenK]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
That means so much, after Zev laid out fairly deatailed analysis. You people just can't stand it when people use their brains, can you? You could see it as a waste of time, but people with IQs over 70 and ages over 16 know that keeping your mind sharp is never a waste of time.

Did I say anything about keeping your mind sharp being a waste of time?!?! I'm happy you're all very learned, especially in science and the law, but the fact that you put all this intelligence into into thesis-length diatrabes to prove the validity or invalidity of a comic book movie, especially based on a comic that requires you to suspend disbelief, I personally think THAT is a waste of time! You could take about five sentences from almost any of these posts, and you'd have constructive arguments for and against the film.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Says the person who thought that CSI was a realistic depiction of crimelabs and thought that, despite nearly all films with investigations in them and other superhero films having the exact same oversight, forensics in Daredevil was a huge plot hole (worse than a master criminal not doing something as basic lift up the mask of his unconscious enemy) and back tracked pretty quickly when I showed that it was not.


I said the technology existed. I may have lost track of the main argument at some point when I was asserting that, probablilities and projections aside, if the events of "Daredevil" happened in real life, there is absolutely a chance that the evidence trail would lead righ tMurdock's doorstep. Whether or not "CSI" and such shows portray the investigations and events in proportion or realistically is beside the point. I said that the technology exists, and it does. Don't bother telling me how ineffective and unjust the criminal justice system is. I know all about that. If you want to get "realistic", then you'd know that Daredevil would have to be the unluckiest guy who ever lived to get "murder two" for what happened with the Fixer. The system wouldn't work that way, even if that was the technical classification of the offence (which it isn't, despite your impeccable sources). Let's say it legally counted as murder two. If there's any possibility that a crime has a mitigating circumstance (like, say, the victim is a crime boss who killed the defendant's father?) then the charge will immediately be lowered at least a notch so that they have a better chance of having a jurt convict. Nobody on a jury would even consider convicting a man for scaring a man to death if the defense could prove the guy was a criminal boss and convince them he had a hand in Murdock's death. They wouldn't even get murder two for that by actual legal rules, much less by a jury's opinion. It counts as manslaughter one at most, and would be easily bumped back to manslaughter two in order to actually have a chance of a conviction. This is "realism", just as solid DNA evidence doesn't always nail criminals, when competent and well-funded investigators could easily clear many of these cases. Every last piece of technology and procedure you see in reality-based crime shows is real, but it's the same as with anything else; an ideal picture of a U.S. soldier would show them well-armed, well-trained, and well-equipped. Sometimes this is the case. Other times, just as with any institution, the corners are cut and people don't have their **** together. I've given you all the truth you need, but you clearly either don't understand it or have an irrational need to believe otherwise. My point isn't that "Murdock would definitely get his balls handed to him by the police for being so careless" although I believe that if he left his mask behind and the police found it, that case would be pursued hard enough to lead to Murdock. My point is, if you want to be smart about that kind of thing, don't leave a shred of evidence behind. Skin cells will fall where they may, but don't ever leave a mask with hair and sweat behind, and don't bleed all over everything without spraying bleach over all of it afterwards. The means for detection exist. Various departments have different levels of preparedness and organization. All you have to do is screw up with the right people on your trail connected to the right supplies, and you're caught. I'll bet you don't believe that the government can see us standing outside by satelites, either. Ever heard of hiding in plain sight? It's what Murdock does all the time, and it's why the CIA, FBI and other government organizations don't need to worry about all the programming and movie exposure that includes real facts. If it looks too good to be true, it must be, right? Leave some DNA behind during a crime. See how long it takes before you're in cuffs. You'd only be playing the odds.

[Quentin Black]

Nano-technology exists too, as does guns which can shoot around corners, biological buildings, exoskeletons for soldiers....guess how often all this stuff is used :rolleyes:

In real life everyone would recognise Clark Kent as Superman. It's not even a problem of the film since he is that reckless in the comics. Over sight of forensics (which is no where near as good as you claim) is something nearly all films and books with an investigation, which do not specifically deal with forensics, have.

It is murder two and you would need a good defence to argue it down to voluntary manslaughter (for a start the term manslaughter one doesn't even exist :rolleyes: ) DD had intent to harm the guy and didn't care or aid him when he died as a result of him chasing him and causing strain on his heart. It would have no chance of reaching involuntary manslaughter (again, no such term as manslaughter two) since he had clear intent to harm the guy...seeing as he didn't just happen to be strolling a long in a devil costume with a club when he accidentally beat the other criminals in to unconsciousness.

The legal system is not based on sympathy for the perp and his situation otherwise many many criminals would get much lighter sentences. It's unfair but that is how it works. You don't seem to have a good grasp on the legal system at all.

Technically by law it is murder and even if the jury does have sympathy and vote for voluntary manslaughter it is still homicide. The film just stepped it up a notch like MWF did.

If the system was that good then every criminal would be behind bars within a week. It's not that good and case like DD's would take months in a 'realistic' situation for any consequences to appear. Satellites like that do exist but DD is hardly a threat to the inner-core of the government...hell most people in the film doubts he even exists. With all the spy satellites in the world the US government can't even find a real threat like...Osama Bin Laden. The most attention DD is going to get is one long-term investigator with other projects and the less than perfect equipment of the New York crime lab.

It's also not a realistic situation considering...

It's not even a problem of the film since he is that reckless in the comics. Over sight of forensics (which is no where near as good as you claim) is something nearly all films and books with an investigation, which do not specifically deal with forensics, have.

So your point was...:rolleyes:

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
This post was a little bit more detailed until my computer decided to crash.



Oh, I have so been there. Sympathies.



Have you checked the law? It was murder two.



Uh-huh, SURE...



Wow, more great exaggerations :up:


Satire, n.

Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.



The music was no better or worse. For someone who hates metal or mordern music you sure do have double standards.



When did I say that? I just said it wasn't appropriate for the movie. Look at the assassination montage in The Godfather for a good example of music complimenting action. See a good film for a change.



Riiiight. So what you're saying is that fights don't fit in with a DD film. Good call :rolleyes:



Not 'playful, flirty' fights, no. Something realistic. Look at what Jackie Chan can do WITHOUT wire-work (in Legend of Drunken Master/Drunken Master 2, for instance). THAT'S what's Daredevil's supposed to be capable of. Have you see Jackie Chan jump through windows and other small spaces? That's Daredevil in a nutshell. Improbable but POSSIBLE agility and nimbleness.



Daredevil is a costumed vigilante (leather is more realistic than spandex) who does violent things, killed when he started out and makes a lot of mistakes usually because of his hot temper and tendancy to follow passion...just like in the comics. Elektra is a American-Greek daugther of a business man who due to the death of her father turned in to a costumed demi-villian who went against Daredevil...just like in the comics. The story is still the most faithful of all the comic films with the exception of the Crow.



You accuse me of exaggeration (guilty as charged, but it's SATIRE. Sa-tire), but you seem fit with generalization. And where do you get Elektra's father being a business man? That's a very generic description. In the comics, he was an ambassador, and in the movie he was a crime lord. You might as well say he was a human being.

The WHAT is intact, but the HOW, WHY, and WHEN are most definitely not.



It is still at the end of the day a comic superhero film. MSJ still wanted the light hearted and fun side of the comics as well as the dark.



Yeah, right. Just keep telling yourself that.



X-men's costumes were nothing like any of the iconic costumes in the comics. DD's still retains the basic look of his costume but adds in elements of a more realistic protective one too. Elektra's costume didn't take one of her iconic ones but silk red ribbon don not make good fighting clothing.



Give me a break. You can't even tell me if Wolverine's costume is orange and black or yellow and black or yellow and blue...

Elektra's costume wasn't even red. Daredevil's costume retains the 'look' of the costume? It's red and has horns, that's about it.


It doesn't negate the fact that this is a superhero film and that style of fighting (realistic with a handful of superhuman jumps) is still taken from the comics. First you want it faithful, then you don't want it faithful...make up your mind.


You tell me to make up my mind, then you say it's 'realistic with a handful of superhuman jumps'? Make up YOUR mind.


Your memory is pretty bad. Kingpin's song has nothing about 'Dirty Dog' in it.


From the soundtrack, the song 'Lapdance' by N.E.R.D.

[Pharrell]
Dirty Dog
I'm, I'm a dirty dog
I'm a dirty dog
I'm, I'm a dirty dog
Dirty Dog
I'm a dirty dog
Dirty Dog

[Verse 1] (Pharrell)
I'm an outlaw (I'm an outlaw)
Quick on the draw (Quick on the draw)
Somethin you've never seen before (Never Seen)
And I dare a mother^_^^_^^_^^_^er to come in my face
I got somethin chrome (I got somethin chrome)
And I got it from home (I got it from home)
And it ain't a microphone (It ain't a mic)
And I dare a mother^_^^_^^_^^_^er to come in my face
It's so real! How I feel!
Cause this society, that makes a ***** wanna kill!
I'm just straight ill! Ridin my motorcycle down the streets
While politicians - is soundin like strippers to me
They sayin, but I don't wanna hear it...

[Chorus] (Vita)
Oooh baby you want me?
Oooh baby you want me?
Oooh baby you want me?
Well you can get this lap dance here for free
Well you can get this lap dance here for free
Well you can get this lap dance here for free
Oooh baby you want me?
Well you can get this lap dance here for free
[Verse 2] (Pharrell)
It's a raw night (It's a raw night)
Who wants to bar fight? (Who wants to bar fight?)
Well come on alright (Y'all come on)
And I dare a mother^_^^_^^_^^_^er to come in my face
Baseball bats (Baseball bats)
I got somethin for that (I got somethin for that)
It goes bla ka ka kat (You know what that is)
So I dare a mother^_^^_^^_^^_^er to come in my face
It's so real! How I feel!
Cause this society, that makes a ***** wanna kill!
I'm just straight ill! Ridin my motorcycle down the streets
While the government - is soundin like strippers to me
They keep sayin, but I don't wanna hear it...

[Chorus]

[Verse 3] (Lee Harvey)
When you think of Harvey, think of a Harley
Blue denim, spiked wrists and gone be
Slap-screws and tattoos that's all me
Two blondes, both arms feelin like Fonzie
You can find me drunk, whippin it might crash
Or find me chillin with crackers who like thrash
Find me in court, smokin that nice grass
Burnin the flag, all in the name of white trash
It's Harvey baby, Christ on the arm I'm gnarly baby
^_^^_^^_^^_^ with me? Not hardly baby
And you know the flow ungodly baby
So lets party baby..
Chicks nickname me powder, they get high off my dick
I take 'em to my home, they call it the cock-pit
Time for take off, they panties they drop quick
Now that's first class ^_^^_^^_^^_^in, ain't that some fly ^_^^_^^_^^_^?

[Chorus]


Most of the songs fit the tone of the scenes and were by relatively unknown bands. Why would Matt bother with sound proofing, both expensive and excessive when turning on some music does the same thing?


Relatively unknown bands? What does that have to do with anything? And tell me again that Elektra training to kill her lover from the mistaken impression that he killed her father is a scene that screams "soft rock!"


Actually burn wounds are much more painful, are harder to heal and last longer. He didn't even fully recover when he took out Bullseye, Kingpin's men and the '7 foot bruiser'. Elektra's death was a slap in the face to him and made him realise how high the stakes were, the only thing that made him get back up. Even then he went to seek sanctuary in a church in order to recover and was forced in to fighting by Bullseye who went after him.


Well, God forbid a man who can jump over water towers and run across clotheslines could heal a bit faster then the average man. The point is that there's a difference in recovery time from five minutes to a few days.

Slap in the face? Whatever. You're rationalizing to yourself. Why not being stabbed through the chest or seeing her getting her throat slit (and yes, it was slit. Just because you can't use a dictionary doesn't mean others can't).



The film is primarily based on the Elektra saga but takes parts from a lot more of the comics including when he discovered that she was still alive before she left him again only to meet up occasionally.



Yeah, it took the cloying sentimental part that was against Frank Miller's wishes (Jim Shooter admitted as much, I believe). Great choice for source material. What's next, Stilt-Man?



He slapped the kid across the face with his stick before tripping him up. You don't need training to do that. Not even the kick requires training since all it is is a kick followed by a backflip, which anybody who was fit and had his powers would have been able to do.



He did not 'slap' the kid across the face. He delivered a series of light 'whacks' as I remember, when the natural inclination is to haul out and pull a 'Babe Ruth' when you have a club-like object. And how can you say anyone who 'has his powers' can do the backflip kick? What empirical evidence is that based on?



The third person came a lot later. If his prey is on the roof then he is going to follow. As for Elektra she didn't know what his powers were and even so the sheets offer protection from his radar. He obviously knew she was in the area and the only way she got the jump on him was because of a distraction.



The SHEETS offer protection from his radar? Jesus ^_^^_^^_^^_^ing Christ! Remember the first Shadow-world scene in the hospital? We CLEARLY saw him 'hearing' through walls to see cars and people walking by. Now you're telling me he can't detect a living, breathing human being hiding behind a SHEET? Why don't you smell what you're shoveling? Whiff, whiff, smells like BS.



Why do people buy designer clothes when regular clothes would do?



Because they can wear designer clothes more then once. They can only eat once. And if all you bought was designer clothes (let's say one to wear each day), pretty soon you'd be broke, no matter how rich you are.


Typo, deal with it. Why would he take it? It has much less impact for him to hang around for a minute to hear out his mask and collect it and doesn't make sense since it's not like he needs to protect his identity from Kingpin, especially since the police are coming. Nobdy is going to be on the rooftops in the early morning. There's more chance of someone spotting a kid in civilian clothes bounding impposible gaps and swing over a busy street in broad daylight.


You're confusing thematic sense with common sense. We don't have to see him take his mask, we can assume he did, unless you point out otherwise with a needlessly arty show. And can you say for sure that 'nobdy' is going to be out on the rooftops in the early morning? I already explained why Peter bounded 'impposible' gaps. You learn that you can climb walls and jump dozens of feet in the air, see how calmly you act. What do you expect, him to climb down, say "Cool", and walk home?



It's not satire. Satire is a little bit more sophisticated than a crude spoof. As a pretender I'm not surprised you don't know the difference the fact that Kingpin killed the single most important person in his life would make. For a start he would not have gone after Kingpin so hastily and it adds more signifcance to their relationship by making it more personal than business.



Daredevil 2: This Time It's Personal! The fact that Kingpin ORDERED the death that caused Elektra and Matt to grow apart and Elektra's own death isn't personal enough? Wow, they have only known each other for 48 hours, so I guess that makes sense...



He was following his passion, derived from his heart.



As opposed to the Passion of the Christ?



As for the ending...MSJ never intended the gritty and realistic parts to negate the fact that it is still a superhero film based on a comic which has dark sides and like Spiderman, lighter sides. You're once again displaying your double standards. Or would you like the uber-realsitic DD in a hoodie beating up guys on the street version that the studio wanted? :rolleyes:


Obviously that's not what the studio wanted, otherwise that's the version we would've seen. Everything about the film was perfectly clean and anti-septic. There was not a single risk taken. It's pathetic.



Learning how to fight using different moves is not hard, especially when you have his powers. You can learn the basics by reading books, imitating martial artists training or even talking to a martial artist. The fact that DD, like Bruce Lee, has his own style that doesn't adhere to any particular style shows that he did not teach himself any specific way of fighting. At the end of day someone had to had create it by teaching themselves martial arts and developing it in to a fighting style.


Okay, you go read books, imitate martial arts training, and talk to a martial artist, then go down to a nice biker bar and call everyone inside pussies. Tell me how that works out.


Polls seem to be your answer to everything...


It's called democracy. Lots of very smart people decided it was the best way to rule.


"Ooooooh, let's make a poll to prove this is better than that (despite the fact that your last poll about the murder of Fixer showed that opinion can differ from fact). Oooooh, I'm so popular with strangers over the internet because I can make crude spoofs (impressive :rolleyes: ) but I'm so insecure that I need posts and polls just to prove it because I have a wannabe alpha-male complex"


Remember when I said that you think you're smarter then everyone else? Well, you just said your OPINION that Fixer's death was Murder 2 is more accurate then the, what, 19-to-3 people who said it wasn't?



Mate I don't care what a dozen strangers who don't even know me think. I know I'm smarter than you. You can't even comprehend passages of text and you even contradict yourself and change your arugment on many occasions. It's not faithful enough but then it's too faithful. You're a fan of the comics but you hate things that are taken from the comics. You even proved that I don't think the film is flawless in the post dated 05-12-2004 08:49 PM yet you then claim I do. You know very well I have a thread on what I would like to see if the trilogy restarted, which included improvements I would make. Does that mean I don't like the film? No. I have made clear logical points based on info from the comics and general knowledge yet you refuse to acknowledge them can continue to troll. You try to cover up the fact that you know very little about the film, comics and the fact that you dislike the concept, with nitpicks, non-existant problems or problems (like the costumes, lines, effects, deviations form the comics) most of the other comic films had but often worse (but since you seem to display double standards that is ok) and time and time again I would correct/explain them with points from the comics, general knowledge and common sense. Does that mean I think the film is flawless? No. Do I think it is one of the most faithful and entertaining comic movies, on par with the Crow, with a few problems that little common sense can solve? Yes. I don't mind if you don't like it for what it is but to troll with false information just gets on my nerves. So in the end what are you...ignorant, arrogant or stupid? Your choice. To be honest I am fed up of arguing with you, just from sheer bulk and expericence of idiocy and ignorance you have tired me out. I have had similar discussions before but back then I enjoyed it, despite not knowing as much about the film and comics as I do know, simply because the guy I was talking too was a little more intelligent and we left on very good terms. Sadly this will not be the case here.

Whoa! Line breaks, Mr. Tourette! Get off your soapbox and learn to parse those rants!

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
So your point was...:rolleyes:

...completely missed by you, apparently.

The "system" sucks. I made that quite clear. The state of the art technology is as good as it looks on certain TV shows and movies. The distribution and proper use of this technology is not evenly spread. If you don't get it by now, you're not going to. I should have known it would be a waste of time trying to patiently explain things to you. I'm sure I'm not the best person to make the explanation, especially at this point in the semester, but I thought I made a fair and honest effort. You choose to once again ignore the truth for whatever reasons you think are valid.

Very briefly:


Whether or not "manslaughter two" is a valid form of a technical term used in written law, it is a commonly used phrase that means "involuntary manslaughter", which falls under "homicide." but not "murder."

Sympathy from the jury may not directly affect the charges brought against a defendant, but the assumed and estimated sympathy of a hypothetical jury (and the judge) damn well does determine how the district attorney's office is going to play it. Did you have the impression that the prosecutor simply charged a defendant with whatever sharge literally fits the crime? Why don't you go and ask Paladin how DAs, and by extension their subordinate attorneys, pick and choose which cases they actively prosecute? They're politicians. They need to keep their batting average up so that they get reelected, and so whoever is in the courtroom is either the prospective candidate or someone who works under him or her. You do the math. Being quite young, I understand how you'd be so naive as to have the view of the court system as you do. Look at "Law and Order", then strip down all the empathy and moral motivation shown by Jack McCoy, and then you'll get the picture. On that show, they only portray cases that actually go to trial. Prosecutors don't do that unless they have a good case, and when they have a good case, they often need to pull their punches when it comes to the charge. They have to assume certain reactions from the jury considering the story behind the crime. There's not a chance that a man would get charged second degree murder (intentional murder) for scaring a fleeing criminal to death. There's a good chance that a prosecutor would submit a lesser charge in order to play it safe, and therefore bump it down to "Man 2" (involuntary manslaughter) or even "criminal indifference" (or whatever they actually call that). The legal system is nothing but compromises. Learn about it, get properly disillusioned, and then get back to me with the debate.

[sleekbelle]

Originally posted by Mastermold
One stands in my head above all else...

That $#%! scene where Spacker Dave and Mr.Bumpo are ballroom dancing during the Punisher/Russian fight. I would really like to know what the director was thinking.

This was my favorite scene from the Punisher. I liked the way Henslight juxtaposed the absurdity of the dance with the brutality of the fight between Frank and the Russian. I thought it was brilliant.

Oh, and now having watched X-Men 2 more then several times, Alan Cummings's fake German accent for Nightcrawler really gets on my nerves.

Every single frame of the George Clooney Batman movie sucks. Yes, even Uma was bad and Arnie was worse. Alicia Silverstone made me hurl. Bad bad movie all around. Not a redeeming scene in the entire movie.

The toad line in Xmen, I have to agree with that. And when Toad's character says something like "Don't you people ever die!" it's sounds like "Don't you people have a dog!" Seriously. Watch that scene and tell me if it doesn't sound like he's saying that.


-Sleek

[Zev]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
...completely missed by you, apparently.

The "system" sucks. I made that quite clear. The state of the art technology is as good as it looks on certain TV shows and movies. The distribution and proper use of this technology is not evenly spread. If you don't get it by now, you're not going to. I should have known it would be a waste of time trying to patiently explain things to you. I'm sure I'm not the best person to make the explanation, especially at this point in the semester, but I thought I made a fair and honest effort. You choose to once again ignore the truth for whatever reasons you think are valid.

Very briefly:


Whether or not "manslaughter two" is a valid form of a technical term used in written law, it is a commonly used phrase that means "involuntary manslaughter", which falls under "homicide." but not "murder."

Sympathy from the jury may not directly affect the charges brought against a defendant, but the assumed and estimated sympathy of a hypothetical jury (and the judge) damn well does determine how the district attorney's office is going to play it. Did you have the impression that the prosecutor simply charged a defendant with whatever sharge literally fits the crime? Why don't you go and ask Paladin how DAs, and by extension their subordinate attorneys, pick and choose which cases they actively prosecute? They're politicians. They need to keep their batting average up so that they get reelected, and so whoever is in the courtroom is either the prospective candidate or someone who works under him or her. You do the math. Being quite young, I understand how you'd be so naive as to have the view of the court system as you do. Look at "Law and Order", then strip down all the empathy and moral motivation shown by Jack McCoy, and then you'll get the picture. On that show, they only portray cases that actually go to trial. Prosecutors don't do that unless they have a good case, and when they have a good case, they often need to pull their punches when it comes to the charge. They have to assume certain reactions from the jury considering the story behind the crime. There's not a chance that a man would get charged second degree murder (intentional murder) for scaring a fleeing criminal to death. There's a good chance that a prosecutor would submit a lesser charge in order to play it safe, and therefore bump it down to "Man 2" (involuntary manslaughter) or even "criminal indifference" (or whatever they actually call that). The legal system is nothing but compromises. Learn about it, get properly disillusioned, and then get back to me with the debate.

http://images.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/cg02032004/SedatedGodzilla.jpg

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by Herr Logan


RaginCajun, that's awfully funny that you'd piggyback on another person's comment about "whiny pussies." You're a raging homophobe. One can't be too much more of a pussy than that. Go ahead and let loose with your foul-mouthed little barrage of gay-bashing expletives, you simpering little child. There are people who are biologically capable of being men (which you may or may not be), and then there are people who act like it. If you haven't already dropped out (I can think of more surprising scenarios), I'm extremely unsettled by the idea of you moving on from high school.

Hey douchebag...actually im in college and i have a 3.5 gpa and i will be transferring to NYU next year for film. By the way I am not homophobe, dont pretend to know me, you dont know jack****
one of my best friends is bisexual, and i have several friends who are lesbians also. So shut ya phuckin mouth if ya dont know what ya talking about. oh and little child, excuse me dude, but im 18 and im in my sophomore year of college. I skipped the 7th and 10th grade. I was voted most likely to succeed, most popular and nicest car in my high school, i have a girlfriend of 3 yrs that i will probably marry within the next couple of years. more than you can say im sure.So you can take your unsettling idea of me moving on from highschool and jam it up your a$$...:)

[Nightwing: Endgame]

As for Zev and Q. Black

I am NOT taking either one of your sides, I agree with certain points that both of you have made, I think both of you are decent guys and you two should just drop whatever stupid **** you got against eachother and move on, this is so childish.

As for Herr Logan...
Where the phuck did u come from ? This NEVER involved you, i hate people who get into other peoples ****...get a life

[Zev]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
As for Zev and Q. Black

I am NOT taking either one of your sides, I agree with certain points that both of you have made, I think both of you are decent guys and you two should just drop whatever stupid **** you got against eachother and move on, this is so childish.

As for Herr Logan...
Where the phuck did u come from ? This NEVER involved you, i hate people who get into other peoples ****...get a life

Zev... u are an ASS

well i was putting it lightly, you are an assh0le who everyone cannot stand, i havent read one thread that you have posted something and havent pissed everyone off. You dont see the VALUE of one's opinion. EVERY person sees things differently. Not everyone says things your retarted phucked up way. To be frank and to sum you up in one word. TROLL... you and BKB111 are TROLLS.

Get a life and realize that comics and superheroes arent life man.
(unless you work for a comic company, which you CLEARLY dont have the intelligence to.)

well Quentin Black as I said he is a TROLL

Ok, Quentin.. im trying to get you to understand he DOESNT think the same way you or I do...he's a lil arrogant piece of **** troll

[in response to Quentin Black]
i know, im The SAME way man... i also HATE when people FLAME others for their opinions.. that really pisses me off

excuse me?? small words.I have a 3.5 gpa thank you very much and a steady girlfriend of 3 years, more than you can say you c0cksmoker...so let me put this in terms YOU can understand You are a phuckin fagg0t with no life,you are a troll,your probably a little highschool, probably still a virgin...guys dont count Zev sorry. you probably whack off to Comic Book chicks,to make a long story short Eat a C0ck Fagg0t and go away No one likes You

OK you assh0le... I've had enough of this childish ****..Get a phuckin life you loser. Why dont you just piss off and go away NO ONE likes you. Why are you here ? Why do you respond ? Just go away You are a scum sucking douchebag who probably beats off to comic and wrestling chicks, you SERIOUSLY need a hobbie man. Get a girlfriend. Or a guy...whichever you prefer.

ZEV i hate 2 say it but you have a COUPLE of decent points about Daredevil,

What's with the turn-around, Cajun? You haven't exactly been taking neutrality lessions from Switzerland. I'm thinking the 'brother used Cajun's account" is accurate, but he must be an expert forger, to get stuff like your use of 'phucking' and '****'. Or perhaps you don't remember getting into me and Quentin's '****'.

Quentin, what can be said about you that hasn't already been said... about Joe Piscopo? I mean, you want this man to be Daredevil.

http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap111.jpg
http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap194.jpg

So, how old are you to have formed this wise, sensible opinion about the star of Armageddon, Pearl Harbor, Gigli, Paycheck, Reindeer Games, and Phantoms? Wow, just about 17. You're almost a lady.

FIVE-MINUTE DAREDEVIL PART 4, "THIS TIME IT'S STILL BUSINESS, BUT IT'S GONNA GET PERSONAL!"

Matt is stirring in his bed.

MATT: Zzzzzzzzz - God bless you, Penis - Zzzzzzzzzzzzz... Snort, huh? Elektra? Elektra? You can't just leave me in the middle of the night! In every relationship there is a bull and cow and I'm not the one who should be saying "MMMmmmooooooooooooo!" Huh, what's this?

ELEKTRA'S LETTER: Dear Matt, I wish I could say I had a great time tonight, but I didn't. Still, my dad is really anxious to meet the one man in America who didn't marry J-Lo, so come to this party on AUGUST 13TH. Bring that piece of lint you call a manhood if you want to dispose of liquid waste, because you're certainly not shoving it in me again.

MATT: Ahhh, true love.

***

HULK: Betsy Hulk's girlfriend!

ROCKETEER: No, Jenny's my girl! I don't care how many Oscars she wins, she's still Jenny on the block to me!

Jenny Blake and Betsy Ross walk in. They look at each other.

JENNY: I like your hair.

BETSY: Thanks, yours is nice too.

HULK: Hulk seeing double!

ROCKETEER: If you think that's confusing, wait until Rebecca Romijin-Stamos gets here.

DAREDEVIL: Yo, Commander Cody, SHUT IT!

SPIDER-MAN: Heh... hehe...

DAREDEVIL: What?

SPIDER-MAN: Nothing. It's just that was a pretty good joke.

DAREDEVIL: Really? You don't think it was too obscure?

SPIDER-MAN: A little, you'd have to be a real geek to get it.

QUENTIN BLACK: HAHAHAHA- No, stop laughing! Everything that comes out of the pretender is concentrated foolishness.

DAREDEVIL: So, then there's this shakedown going on, see?

***

VICTIM: Somebody save me!

THUG: I hate that theme song! It's almost as bad as Enterprise's.

VICTIM: Gak!

DAREDEVIL: Hey, butthole.

THUG: Wha?

DAREDEVIL: Ha, you looked! Now, Mr. Butthole, would you like your ass-whooping with kicks or without kicks?

THUG: Die!

DAREDEVIL: With kicks it is.

THUG: Ugh!

DAREDEVIL: This is my kitchen! See my apron? You'd better kiss the goddamn cook!

THUG: It ain't anymore. Kingpin's movin' on down, to the East Side. He's gonna take over everything under the sky. He's finally getting all of the criminal pie.

DAREDEVIL: You honkie!

THUG: Hey look, Elektra!

DAREDEVIL: Come to poppa! The GREEK poppa!

THUG: So long, sucker!

DAREDEVIL: Well, you're not gonna rock the casbah! The GREEK casbah!

***

THUG: Whew, I lost him. Now to beat my kid.

KID: Owie! Owie!

THUG: Yeah, there's nothing better to do when being pursued by an angry vigilante then to stop to commit more grevious offenses!

DAREDEVIL: Hey! Stop, you're gonna kill him! And that's only okay if he grows up and I lose a court case to him!

THUG: Owie! Owie! You're treating me like Batman & Robin treated the audience!

KID: Glare.

DAREDEVIL'S MIND: Now I feel guilty! Don't worry Matt, you're a professional lawyer. You can come up with the perfect explanation to get this kid on your side.

DAREDEVIL: I'm not the bad guy.

DAREDEVIL'S MIND: That's it, I'm leaving. You want to choose any more scripts, you can do it without me!

DAREDEVIL: Lots of good you did in the first place!

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by Zev


What's with the turn-around, Cajun? You haven't exactly been taking neutrality lessions from Switzerland. I'm thinking the 'brother used Cajun's account" is accurate, but he must be an expert forger, to get stuff like your use of 'phucking' and '****'.


Zev, i realized that you have your opinions like everyone else does, im just trying to be mature about this. Sorry about the **** i said Bro. Kool avatar by the way is that from "elevator " for nintendo ?

[Quentin Black]

Again satire requires actual wit.

It was appropriate for the tone of the scenes. It is not a serious film like Godfather, it is a entertaining superhero action film. You complain that is uses modern music despite so many other films using similar music.

You further show you lack of knowledge on the comics. DD has an equal side which is light, playful and flirty. Like the first time he meets Milla/Elektra/Echo, any issue prior to Frank Miller and quite a number of issues after.

You really need to stop pretending you're actually writing satire. It's very weak and just shows the fragility of your argument. You generalized and I was just showing you how your generalizations were technically inncorrect. As for Natchios he was a business man who did deals with Kingpin to get ahead, not a crimelord. The change is to an insignificant character with no effect on the main characters and adds to a solid storyline.

Wow, great comeback. "yeah right", that just disproves everything I just said despite the fact that it is obvious that MSJ did want to keep both sides of DD, the comicy fun as well as the dark gritty sides. Without them both it doesn't make DD.

Anyone of those costumes for Wolverine could have been adapted but they didn't.

Daredevil's costume is just a tight fitting red suit with a mask and horns with two Ds on the chest! That is what the film did but made it using a different material and took elements of the armoured costume. As for Elektra...you really need to do your research (http://www.mangagirl.org/elektra/images/page/redeemer1_14-15.jpg). Another picture here (http://www.mangagirl.org/elektra/images/action_elektra.jpg)

It is all mostly realistic close quarters combat with a few superhuman feats, just like the comics.

Yes your memory is terrible. The only two lines clearly audiable in the film are these two. The rest fade in to the background and the beat of the song.

I'm an outlaw (I'm an outlaw)
Quick on the draw (Quick on the draw)

You people keep claiming he put the bands in because they were popular when they were virtually unknown. Apparently you seemed to have missed Amy Lee's amazing vocals. the strong beat only comes in half way through.

He didn't even recover when he left his apartment before fighting Bullseye. You do not recover from burn wounds in a day and him taking out Bullseye, all of Kingpin's men as well as Kingpin is no more realistic than a beaten up DD with an injured shoulder beating Bullseye or Kingpin. Even then he was very close to losing in the film.

So you're equating the effect of DD being stabbed (which has probably happened to him many times) to the one he loves dying and being thrown down next to him (which has happened...never). Good one. He's blind and beaten up noticing the fact that she has got her throat cut ('slit throat' is a term that refers to a fatal cut in to her neck, which the film did not contain) isn't going to register very strong.

Yet that part is still a major part of DD's history and without it you wouldn't get his brief reunion with her in Out.
he film is primarily based on the Elektra saga but takes parts from a lot more of the comics including when he discovered that she was still alive before she left him again only to meet up occasionally.

Fine, if you want to continue to be nitpicky he 'whacked' him, it doesn't make a difference. None of what he did required no training what so ever. He has super sense of balance and strength. A backflip isn't going to be difficult and all he has to do is extend his leg while doing it.

Refer back to the train scene. He did not hear past the column to see Quesada, his sonar reflected an outline back which appeared as a small blob.

Hmmm, tell that to the rich and famous who do buy very expensive clothes everyday. Kingpin requires an important task done and this time he chose to use Bullseye. He can afford it and since this is such a high priority case Bullseye would be a good choice for the job.

He doesn't have any requirement to take his mask since his identity has already been discovered and he has no time to stay and hear out his mask and pick it up. It interupts the flow and impact of the scene as well. If they didn't show him picking it up yet he appeared with it later I bet one of you lot would probably still nitpick it out as a flaw. Nobody is going to be out on the rooftops in the early morning as well as have the good vision to clearly identify a face, in the dark, that is moving very quickly by. I don't doubt that he was very excited but Pete is supposed to be smart. He was even more reckless than Matt and the fact that nobody saw a kid doing that in broad daylight in a busy area is quite dodgy. But with double standards it's forgivable :rolleyes:

She was very close to him but their relationship is no way near as signficant to Matt as the one with his father, the most important figure in his life. The fact that Kingpin is responsible for the early ruin of his life and recent ruin of his life just adds significantly to their relationship. Obviously as a pretender I wouldn't expect you to get that.

wow, you can write puns, more of your wit? :rolleyes: Good dodge of actually providing a retort with substance btw.

The studio wanted it but MSJ fought for a faithful adaptation which is what the fans got and the reason why many liked his work. It followed the comics very closely and took more risks than say, Spiderman or X-men. Death and brutal violence isn't keeping it risk free. If they wanted to play it safe they would have pulled a Spiderman and watered it down for kids, a safe demographic that ensures money. They didn't.

Well if I get powers and train at a gym, practice moves and keep in top physical powers for the next fifteen years then I probably would. It took him two seconds to master a spring punchbag with extreme ease, somthing that would take most people a bit of practice.

Actually it's called statistics, a lot of which is BS.

Again I have to say. I don't care what a dozen strangers who don't even know me think. I know I'm smarter than you. You can't even comprehend passages of text and you even contradict yourself and change your arugment on many occasions. It's not faithful enough but then it's too faithful. You're a fan of the comics but you hate things that are taken from the comics. You even proved that I don't think the film is flawless in the post dated 05-12-2004 08:49 PM yet you then claim I do. You know very well I have a thread on what I would like to see if the trilogy restarted, which included improvements I would make. Does that mean I don't like the film? No. I have made clear logical points based on info from the comics and general knowledge yet you refuse to acknowledge them can continue to troll. You try to cover up the fact that you know very little about the film, comics and the fact that you dislike the concept, with nitpicks, non-existant problems or problems (like the costumes, lines, effects, deviations form the comics) most of the other comic films had but often worse (but since you seem to display double standards that is ok) and time and time again I would correct/explain them with points from the comics, general knowledge and common sense. Does that mean I think the film is flawless? No. Do I think it is one of the most faithful and entertaining comic movies, on par with the Crow, with a few problems that little common sense can solve? Yes. I don't mind if you don't like it for what it is but to troll with false information just gets on my nerves. So in the end what are you...ignorant, arrogant or stupid? Your choice. To be honest I am fed up of arguing with you, just from sheer bulk and expericence of idiocy and ignorance you have tired me out. I have had similar discussions before but back then I enjoyed it, despite not knowing as much about the film and comics as I do know, simply because the guy I was talking too was a little more intelligent and we left on very good terms. Sadly this will not be the case here.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

you didnt like the crow ? c'mon man that movie is GREAT

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
...completely missed by you, apparently.

The "system" sucks. I made that quite clear. The state of the art technology is as good as it looks on certain TV shows and movies. The distribution and proper use of this technology is not evenly spread. If you don't get it by now, you're not going to. I should have known it would be a waste of time trying to patiently explain things to you. I'm sure I'm not the best person to make the explanation, especially at this point in the semester, but I thought I made a fair and honest effort. You choose to once again ignore the truth for whatever reasons you think are valid.

Very briefly:


Whether or not "manslaughter two" is a valid form of a technical term used in written law, it is a commonly used phrase that means "involuntary manslaughter", which falls under "homicide." but not "murder."

Sympathy from the jury may not directly affect the charges brought against a defendant, but the assumed and estimated sympathy of a hypothetical jury (and the judge) damn well does determine how the district attorney's office is going to play it. Did you have the impression that the prosecutor simply charged a defendant with whatever sharge literally fits the crime? Why don't you go and ask Paladin how DAs, and by extension their subordinate attorneys, pick and choose which cases they actively prosecute? They're politicians. They need to keep their batting average up so that they get reelected, and so whoever is in the courtroom is either the prospective candidate or someone who works under him or her. You do the math. Being quite young, I understand how you'd be so naive as to have the view of the court system as you do. Look at "Law and Order", then strip down all the empathy and moral motivation shown by Jack McCoy, and then you'll get the picture. On that show, they only portray cases that actually go to trial. Prosecutors don't do that unless they have a good case, and when they have a good case, they often need to pull their punches when it comes to the charge. They have to assume certain reactions from the jury considering the story behind the crime. There's not a chance that a man would get charged second degree murder (intentional murder) for scaring a fleeing criminal to death. There's a good chance that a prosecutor would submit a lesser charge in order to play it safe, and therefore bump it down to "Man 2" (involuntary manslaughter) or even "criminal indifference" (or whatever they actually call that). The legal system is nothing but compromises. Learn about it, get properly disillusioned, and then get back to me with the debate.

Nano-technology exists, just it's not in use (or rare use). The same applies to CSI. The technology exists but it's rarely used and the investigators are no way near as efficient as they are on the program. It's not a realistic deptiction and no way is the New York crime lab going to be able to solve cases or have all the best equipment like they do. You can argue about the existance of that equipment all you like but it doesn't change the fact that in your 'realistic' situation it would take months for anything to happen and the evidence would still be weak. It's not even a consideration since...

It's not a problem of the film since he is that reckless in the comics. Over sight of forensics (which is no where near as good as you claim) is something nearly all films and books with an investigation, which do not specifically deal with forensics, have.

Manslaughter two isn't even a term that colloquially refers to involuntary manslaughter!

I do watch law and order and even on the program the fact that someone has commited a crime which could be described as being 'grey' they often still get a serious and harsh charge for it.
It would get anywhere near involuntary manslaughther because it is very clear that it was not involuntary. What is so hard to get. The prosecutor would try it as murder two and it would require a good defender to take it down to voluntary manslaughter which is probably the realistic aim the prosecutor would be hoping to get. Ofcourse they comprimise but they are not going to start of low to go even lower. They are going to start of at the right technical level or even harsher and take it down to a realistic aim. You'd make an attrocious prosecutor and you seem to have little idea od how it actually works.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
you didnt like the crow ? c'mon man that movie is GREAT

I loved the Crow and I love DD. They're my two favorite comic films.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

oh ok, yea The Crow is my favorite movie, never gets old...

too bad he died, he woulda been really big

while i wasn't fond of DD, it was watchable. I watched it last night for the 2nd time. I actually liked it better the 2nd time around

[Zev]

I'm beginning to believe Cajun just had a bad day at the office or something. I forgive you, but you're not getting a '^_^^_^^_^^_^ my sister' picture anytime soon.

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Again satire requires actual wit.

Tell me when you find some. I suggest going outside to look for it, because there certainly isn't any living in your basement with you.

It was appropriate for the tone of the scenes. It is not a serious film like Godfather, it is a entertaining superhero action film. You complain that is uses modern music despite so many other films using similar music.

I thought it was supposed to be a realistic drama with action elements.

You further show you lack of knowledge on the comics. DD has an equal side which is light, playful and flirty. Like the first time he meets Milla/Elektra/Echo, any issue prior to Frank Miller and quite a number of issues after.


Any issue prior to Frank Miller? Like "Man-Bull In A Chinatown"? I could argue that Batman has a light, playful, and flirty side because that was in comics, but clearly the 'modern' Daredevil is a much darker character. You want a character who commits murders, yet is not obsessed enough to leave his lady love, yet jokes around and flirts. A Daredevil For All Seasons?


You really need to stop pretending you're actually writing satire. It's very weak and just shows the fragility of your argument. You generalized and I was just showing you how your generalizations were technically inncorrect. As for Natchios he was a business man who did deals with Kingpin to get ahead, not a crimelord. The change is to an insignificant character with no effect on the main characters and adds to a solid storyline.


He was a business man who did deals with Kingpin to get ahead? Where did you get that information? He was a crime lord, that's why he was 'retiring' from Kingpin's business to go legitimate.


Wow, great comeback. "yeah right", that just disproves everything I just said despite the fact that it is obvious that MSJ did want to keep both sides of DD, the comicy fun as well as the dark gritty sides. Without them both it doesn't make DD.

Then he failed. Look at the Miller run. Most of the humor came from comic relief characters like Foggy or Turk. Can you show me where the 'comicy fun' is in Born Again?

Anyone of those costumes for Wolverine could have been adapted but they didn't.

I could say the same for Daredevil or Elektra.

Daredevil's costume is just a tight fitting red suit with a mask and horns with two Ds on the chest! That is what the film did but made it using a different material and took elements of the armoured costume. As for Elektra...you really need to do your research (http://www.mangagirl.org/elektra/images/page/redeemer1_14-15.jpg). Another picture here (http://www.mangagirl.org/elektra/images/action_elektra.jpg)

Ah, the universally-reviled armored costume. GREAT choice for the movie. As for Elektra, the vast majority of her appearances are in the red costume. Putting her in some obscure black leather would be like putting Cyclops in the 'Erik the Red' outfit.

It is all mostly realistic close quarters combat with a few superhuman feats, just like the comics.

Yeah, Daredevil fought aliens in the comics too, do you want that? The 'few superhuman feats' detract from the reality of the film. You don't need that much wirework and CGI to capture Daredevil's world.

Yes your memory is terrible. The only two lines clearly audiable in the film are these two. The rest fade in to the background and the beat of the song.

I'm an outlaw (I'm an outlaw)
Quick on the draw (Quick on the draw)

Umm, no. I clearly heard the 'dirty dog', otherwise I would not have been able to find the lyrics. They're 'whispered' as the camera pans up the side of the building. Get your hearing checked and stop arguing when you've been proven wrong.

You people keep claiming he put the bands in because they were popular when they were virtually unknown. Apparently you seemed to have missed Amy Lee's amazing vocals. the strong beat only comes in half way through.

He put them in so he would have something to sell on the soundtrack. Whether they're 'unknown' or now is inmaterial and quite open to question. To me, hearing a bunch of soft rock in a film that doesn't fit the mood MSJ ADMITTED he was going for is like a big billboard confessing "WE SOLD OUT!"

He didn't even recover when he left his apartment before fighting Bullseye. You do not recover from burn wounds in a day and him taking out Bullseye, all of Kingpin's men as well as Kingpin is no more realistic than a beaten up DD with an injured shoulder beating Bullseye or Kingpin. Even then he was very close to losing in the film.

Maybe if you're a blind man who can jump across buildings you can recover from burn wounds (whose severity is unknown, as I certainly didn't get a medical report and he didn't seem in pain when he was with Milla) quicker then usual. Anyway, these (and the unbelievable CGI-required stunts) are the kind of thing you have to lose from comic to screen. Just like all the X-Men having varying, ultra-colorful outfits and Spider-Man having high-tech webshooters build from stuff he found around the house (sorry Herr Logan).

So you're equating the effect of DD being stabbed (which has probably happened to him many times) to the one he loves dying and being thrown down next to him (which has happened...never). Good one. He's blind and beaten up noticing the fact that she has got her throat cut ('slit throat' is a term that refers to a fatal cut in to her neck, which the film did not contain) isn't going to register very strong.

Umm, Quentin, Daredevil isn't really 'blind'. He can see through the use of a radar sense and the heightening of his remaining senses. So he would probably notice his girlfriend being in quite a bit of pain (like, for instance, having her hand pierced by a sai or having her throat SLIT by a playing card. It was slit, even if the colloquialism implies a fatality).

But then, maybe he's playing by the old kung-fu 'people can only fight one-on-one, just to keep things fair' rule.

Yet that part is still a major part of DD's history and without it you wouldn't get his brief reunion with her in Out.
he film is primarily based on the Elektra saga but takes parts from a lot more of the comics including when he discovered that she was still alive before she left him again only to meet up occasionally.

Well, they're not ADAPTING Out. They're adapting the Elektra Saga and in that, the character died. But no, there's money to be made on the spinoff, so let's change the point of the original saga (Elektra DIED) to make it all okay.

Fine, if you want to continue to be nitpicky he 'whacked' him, it doesn't make a difference. None of what he did required no training what so ever. He has super sense of balance and strength. A backflip isn't going to be difficult and all he has to do is extend his leg while doing it.

A backflip kick is ridiculously showy for a 'comeuppance' scene. This is not the kind of scene that should require wirework. Find me one of your beloved critics who say that scene was good.

Refer back to the train scene. He did not hear past the column to see Quesada, his sonar reflected an outline back which appeared as a small blob.

Umm, huh? He still DETECTED Quesada. That's what you're telling me? And a sheet hanging from a clothesline is hardly a concrete column.

Hmmm, tell that to the rich and famous who do buy very expensive clothes everyday. Kingpin requires an important task done and this time he chose to use Bullseye. He can afford it and since this is such a high priority case Bullseye would be a good choice for the job.

Kingpin is a bit smarter then Jessica Simpson. Ever heard of 'the right tool for the right job'?

He doesn't have any requirement to take his mask since his identity has already been discovered and he has no time to stay and hear out his mask and pick it up. It interupts the flow and impact of the scene as well. If they didn't show him picking it up yet he appeared with it later I bet one of you lot would probably still nitpick it out as a flaw. Nobody is going to be out on the rooftops in the early morning as well as have the good vision to clearly identify a face, in the dark, that is moving very quickly by. I don't doubt that he was very excited but Pete is supposed to be smart. He was even more reckless than Matt and the fact that nobody saw a kid doing that in broad daylight in a busy area is quite dodgy. But with double standards it's forgivable :rolleyes:

No, we wouldn't. All we have to do is see him leaving (from perhaps an exterior angle) with the mask on, then cut back to Kingpin vowing revenge. I thought Matt was smart, yet he fought in broad daylight in a busy area with Elektra. And I doubt he was moving fast enough to escape sight there. There are many reasons for Matt to pick up the mask and none NOT to. The police were JUST pulling up and Kingpin was at the top of a skyscraper, you're saying he didn't have time to pick it up, put it on, and leave? Kingpin's beaten, you've got leisure time. And even smart people do stupid things, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Daredevil was a good movie.

She was very close to him but their relationship is no way near as signficant to Matt as the one with his father, the most important figure in his life. The fact that Kingpin is responsible for the early ruin of his life and recent ruin of his life just adds significantly to their relationship. Obviously as a pretender I wouldn't expect you to get that.

No, it doesn't 'add significantly to their relationship'. Wow, Kingpin took away TWO people that Matt loves! Now Matt hates him TWICE as much. Give me a break.

wow, you can write puns, more of your wit? :rolleyes: Good dodge of actually providing a retort with substance btw.

Were you born without a funnybone or was it taken out surgically?

The studio wanted it but MSJ fought for a faithful adaptation which is what the fans got and the reason why many liked his work. It followed the comics very closely and took more risks than say, Spiderman or X-men. Death and brutal violence isn't keeping it risk free. If they wanted to play it safe they would have pulled a Spiderman and watered it down for kids, a safe demographic that ensures money. They didn't.

Which is why Bullseye said "I want a ^_^^_^^_^^_^ing costume", not "I want a bloody costume". And hence got the movie an R-rating. Oh, wait...

And I don't care what you say about your wonderful British rating system that protects all the children from headbutts (the sight of which lets the Devil enter their innocent little genitals). It was an American film made for American audiences. They watered it down for kids, hence the soft rock music by popular bands, the PG-13 rating, and the casting of 'In' people Colin Farrell (did you know that their first choice for Bullsye was Vin Diesel?) and Jennifer Garner.

Well if I get powers and train at a gym, practice moves and keep in top physical powers for the next fifteen years then I probably would. It took him two seconds to master a spring punchbag with extreme ease, somthing that would take most people a bit of practice.

No, you don't have fifteen years, you have a few weeks or months. Then you have to fight three bullies who are larger then you armed only with a cane. Good luck.

Actually it's called statistics, a lot of which is BS.

There you go again, calling other people's opinions BS. You most not have many friends.

Again I have to say. I don't care what a dozen strangers who don't even know me think. I know I'm smarter than you. You can't even comprehend passages of text and you even contradict yourself and change your arugment on many occasions. It's not faithful enough but then it's too faithful. You're a fan of the comics but you hate things that are taken from the comics. You even proved that I don't think the film is flawless in the post dated 05-12-2004 08:49 PM yet you then claim I do. You know very well I have a thread on what I would like to see if the trilogy restarted, which included improvements I would make. Does that mean I don't like the film? No. I have made clear logical points based on info from the comics and general knowledge yet you refuse to acknowledge them can continue to troll. You try to cover up the fact that you know very little about the film, comics and the fact that you dislike the concept, with nitpicks, non-existant problems or problems (like the costumes, lines, effects, deviations form the comics) most of the other comic films had but often worse (but since you seem to display double standards that is ok) and time and time again I would correct/explain them with points from the comics, general knowledge and common sense. Does that mean I think the film is flawless? No. Do I think it is one of the most faithful and entertaining comic movies, on par with the Crow, with a few problems that little common sense can solve? Yes. I don't mind if you don't like it for what it is but to troll with false information just gets on my nerves. So in the end what are you...ignorant, arrogant or stupid? Your choice. To be honest I am fed up of arguing with you, just from sheer bulk and expericence of idiocy and ignorance you have tired me out. I have had similar discussions before but back then I enjoyed it, despite not knowing as much about the film and comics as I do know, simply because the guy I was talking too was a little more intelligent and we left on very good terms. Sadly this will not be the case here.

If anyone left on 'very good terms', it wasn't because of you. Who came to this thread and started defending Daredevil (bashing Daredevil specifically or defending it was never the point of this thread, hence a moment from the film being only one of ten mentioned)? Who took up an insulting attitude, complete with calling other people stupid if they don't agree with you and see the wonders of Daredevil? You.

Don't talk to me about 'sadly, this will not be the case here'. You're enjoying this. You're lording your so-called superiority over everyone. We've got a saying here in the States. Different strokes for different folks. You can't comprehend that. Anyone who dislikes something YOU like must be retarded, since your opinion is the be-all and end-all gauge of quality. You've had a hissy-fit about twelve times now and said "I'm gonna to stop responding to your stupid posts, you big dummy!", yet you keep coming back. If arguing with me is so annoying, why not stop? We won't think any less of you. Just stop hijacking my thread.

In conclusion, The Crow was overrated based on the death of its star and its success was largely based on a morbid curiosity to see a movie with a 'post-mortem' star. It sure was a lot of fun watching an invincible goth walking around and acting all badass. It was pretentious and annoying in the comics and it was pretentious and annoying in the film. Plus, Ernie Hudson as a streetwise old cop. That's not cliche at all. Nor is the little girl who our hero builds a redemptive relationship with (watch out, this cliche is soon to be repeated in Elektra, from producer Mark Steven Johnson!).

Also, how come in Spider-Man, Spider-Man has to evade a few Razor-Bats and still gets cut up, while in Daredevil, he somersaults backwards in a straight line (which you'd think would keep his 'fulcrum' in the same place) while Bullseye throws dozens (if not hundreds) of pieces of glass at him and Daredevil doesn't get a scratch? And this is BULLSEYE throwing them! How can anyone suspend their disbelief for that scene? Rationalize that with a little common sense.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zev
I'm beginning to believe Cajun just had a bad day at the office or something. I forgive you, but you're not getting a '^_^^_^^_^^_^ my sister' picture anytime soon.

In conclusion, The Crow was overrated based on the death of its star and its success was largely based on a morbid curiosity to see [/QUOTE

hahahha yeah. actually i was having a bad day at the office that day, anywayz, im glad all is kool.

i think The Crow was GREAT, but i DEFINITLY think that most people watched it because of the accident

[Zev]

It worked as a drama, but failed as an action movie because there was no suspense that the lead was going to buy it.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

oh definitly i would put it under Drama rather than Action

[spide-ed]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
oh ok, yea The Crow is my favorite movie, never gets old...

too bad he died, he woulda been really big

while i wasn't fond of DD, it was watchable. I watched it last night for the 2nd time. I actually liked it better the 2nd time around

Yeh its the same with alot of average movies, you like it better the second time because you know it sucks so you kinda accept it. All your preconceptions are gone.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by spide-ed
Yeh its the same with alot of average movies, you like it better the second time because you know it sucks so you kinda accept it. All your preconceptions are gone.


yea lol true

[Quentin Black]

I'm going to keep this brief as I have better things to do.

Modern DDs still have the light flirty side to them.

He was a businessman who wanted to pull out of his deals with Kingpin as he was too scared of pressure from the press.

Some more serious tpbs do not take away from the countless times DD has been comic lighthearted fun.

They were as I have clearly shown. It was the red costume with elements of the armoured. Elektra still wore black at one point. None of the X-men wore those types of costumes prior to the film. It seems the onlyway you can deny this is to take what I say out of context.

There is nothing about 'dirty dog'

Actually the songs did fit the tone of the scenes no matter how much you'd like to pidgeon hole them.

He didn't seem to be in pain as he knows ways of ignoring pain via meditation. I'd rather they keep it as it is not implausible.

The cut throat still would not have registered very well in the condition he was in. It was only when she got the sai through her did he recognise the stakes.

They're adapting Daredevil, primarily based on Elektra saga with elements from lots of other tpbs. I'm not surprised you didn't know that. The ending was ambigous and a lot of people still think she did die so it's not just for a sequel.

It's not a great scene but it doesn't ruin anything or imply that he taught himself a lot of martial arts in a month.

You're right, a sheet would actually absorb more sound than a concrete column.

The case was high priority and he needed someone who would ensure it would get carried out.

If you read the comics you would also know he was reckless. It's not very good cinemtography to not show something like that and to show it would be intterupting the scene. He had little reason to pick it up and waiting for the police to be half way up the stairwell before trying to reach non sky-scraper rooftop levels is not wise.

Wow, you confirm that you don't know anything about the comics.

I find things which are actually funny, funny.

Roeper: The pg-13 comic film closest to being R rated. In fact it even came out as a 15 over here. Spiderman doesn't have women being beaten and stabbed, people being mudered in various different ways, knee caps breaking, brutal punching and violence in superhero vs thug scenes. Collin Farrell and Garner were unknown at the time. They could have gone for much more popular stars but they didn't. Sean Connery was the first choice for Morpheus and Will Smith for Neo but it doesn't mean squat.

No it was 15 years before the bar fight. The bully scene didn't actually require any specific training.

No it was because of me because we kept relatively civil and I sent him a pm about it. It was you who has been trolling Daredevil for the last few weeks with false information ('oh its so unfaithful', despite most agreeing that is was the most faithful) and the weakest nitpicks, most of which apply to all the other comic films, and I'm going to be there to counter that.

Yes I really enjoy arguing with an idiot who can't seem to comprehend anything I say. :rolleyes: I don't lord over people, I just know you're stupid. You can't even comprehend simple sentences and contradict yourself. I would like to stop but I have an annoying tendancy to correct things which are incorrect and that applies for most of the things you say. Of course you won't stop picking away because you're too thick headed to get anything when it is clear I know more about the comics, the film, the law and forensics than you. You don't even seem to like the orignal comics since most of the things directly link to the comics yet you like to claim yourself as a fan which is frankly insulting.

Yes it's so popular because the star died. I guess that is the reasoning behind the success of Gladiatior too.

The pieces of glass aren't specially designed weapons and Spidey doesn't have the ability to predict the path of what is being thrown. How could you not know this basic comic knowledge yet claim to be a fan?

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
It worked as a drama, but failed as an action movie because there was no suspense that the lead was going to buy it.

Did you completely miss out the end scene or something?

[Zev]

Right, ignoring you totally for a moment...

I'm going to try and rent Howard the Duck to get back OT.

Just a small correction. There was a short scene in Spider-Man with Macy Gray singing a song. There was about five seconds of her cameo, then back to the story with her singing over the action for a little bit.

Contrast with Daredevil. For over two minutes, we see Elektra 'training' to the sounds of Evanescense. What does this scene tell us? That Elektra knows martial-arts? We already know that. That she hates Daredevil? Already know that too. That she wears black leather? We find that out in the next scene. Guess it's only there to be 'cool'. Oh, and sell soundtracks.

If Bullseye can impale people with batons from thirty feet away, then he can turn a shard of thin glass into an aerodynamic weapon. Daredevil just somersaulted backwards (in a straight line facing Bullseye, no less), his center never moved. Why didn't Bullseye aim for that? We saw Spider-Man moving out of the way of the Razor-Bats (oh, and he has a little something called Spider-Sense, look it up).

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
Hey douchebag...actually im in college and i have a 3.5 gpa and i will be transferring to NYU next year for film. By the way I am not homophobe, dont pretend to know me, you dont know jack****
one of my best friends is bisexual, and i have several friends who are lesbians also. So shut ya phuckin mouth if ya dont know what ya talking about. oh and little child, excuse me dude, but im 18 and im in my sophomore year of college. I skipped the 7th and 10th grade. I was voted most likely to succeed, most popular and nicest car in my high school, i have a girlfriend of 3 yrs that i will probably marry within the next couple of years. more than you can say im sure.So you can take your unsettling idea of me moving on from highschool and jam it up your a$$...:)

Just another example of how grades don't reflect actual intelligence. If anything you've said can be believed, that is, and we all know the answer to that.

You have a girlfriend of three years that you plan to marry? What a coincidence, so do I. How very special. Here's hoping you never breed and let loose upon the world more inconsistent, incomprehensive, lying little homphobic children like yourself.

7th and 10th grade might have helped you learn how to keep a consistent viewpoint and speak like an adult, kid. Maybe you should take some courses at a community college after graduation and catch up. :rolleyes:

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Right, ignoring you totally for a moment...

I'm going to try and rent Howard the Duck to get back OT.

Just a small correction. There was a short scene in Spider-Man with Macy Gray singing a song. There was about five seconds of her cameo, then back to the story with her singing over the action for a little bit.

Contrast with Daredevil. For over two minutes, we see Elektra 'training' to the sounds of Evanescense. What does this scene tell us? That Elektra knows martial-arts? We already know that. That she hates Daredevil? Already know that too. That she wears black leather? We find that out in the next scene. Guess it's only there to be 'cool'. Oh, and sell soundtracks.

If Bullseye can impale people with batons from thirty feet away, then he can turn a shard of thin glass into an aerodynamic weapon. Daredevil just somersaulted backwards (in a straight line facing Bullseye, no less), his center never moved. Why didn't Bullseye aim for that? We saw Spider-Man moving out of the way of the Razor-Bats (oh, and he has a little something called Spider-Sense, look it up).

It was to show the true extent of her skills. We alrady know what DD can do. We already know how deadly Bullseye is. We never got to see the true extent of her ability, most notably how good she is with sais. You could argue that it is not needed but without it we have an underestimation of how good she is, we have an underestimation of how good Bullseye is for defeating her and we get the feeling that DD is holding back too much when it is partially down to her being skilled.

DD's clubs are weighed to be perfect throwing weapons, don't you read the comics? :rolleyes: As for Spidey's spidersense it doesn't tell him direction, path or what type of attack it is, just that there is an attack. DD's radar can predict the path that an object will take. Huge difference. Even if you didn't read the comics the least you could do is do the research.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
You'd make an attrocious prosecutor and you seem to have little idea od how it actually works.

The only reason I'd be an "atrocious" prosecutor is because I'd be an ineffective one. Unlike stupid people, I believe in actual consequences more than moral nonsense, which is what people usually use to sway juries. Either a person is dangerous or not. People don't presecute this way, because they have to lower themselves to suit the ignorant children who sit in the jury box. Another reason I'd make an ineffective prosecutor is because I don't compromise on issues of violent crime. I wouldn't spend two seconds prosecuting someone like Daredevil for frightening that poor, persectured criminal with a weak heart, but I'd hit the Fixer with everything I had. No pansy-ass compromises. That's why I'm not right for the job. I care more about protecting innocents than climbing the career ladder.

You've proven beyond a doubt you don't understand how the District Attorney's office does things, and you're far from learned about homicide charges and what they mean. You repeat your arguments again and again without touching on the truth. I don't know where your biases come from, but you should work on it before they destroy your ability to argue completely.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
It was to show the true extent of her skills. We alrady know what DD can do. We already know how deadly Bullseye is. We never got to see the true extent of her ability, most notably how good she is with sais. You could argue that it is not needed but without it we have an underestimation of how good she is, we have an underestimation of how good Bullseye is for defeating her and we get the feeling that DD is holding back too much when it is partially down to her being skilled.

DD's clubs are weighed to be perfect throwing weapons, don't you read the comics? :rolleyes: As for Spidey's spidersense it doesn't tell him direction, path or what type of attack it is, just that there is an attack. DD's radar can predict the path that an object will take. Huge difference. Even if you didn't read the comics the least you could do is do the research.

Did I say DD's clubs WEREN'T throwing weapons? No. I said that you'd be hardpressed to use it to kill someone by hitting them in the chest from some distance away. Obviously, Bullseye has a great throwing arm.

I didn't say Spider-Sense told him where danger was coming from. But, going by the movie, he has enhanced reflexes which border on precognition. It's not perfect, he still gets hit, but he might be able to see it coming.

But how selective is Matt's radar sense? It can allow him to avoid dozens of glass shards without even a scratch, yet he can't detect Elektra behind a sheet. Have you seen someone somersaulting? It's like anything rotating around a base. His arms and legs are moving, but his center is merely ROTATING. So why doesn't he get a dozen glass shards in the stomach or the small of his back? Movie magic!

By the way, much more people prefer the comics costume then the movie costume. MUCH more. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81011)

[Herr Logan]

Spider-Man's spider-sense waffles back and forth between giving Spider-Man a vague sense of danger with no details and telling him exactly how he must move to avoid the danger. I read the comics. This is irrefutable, so don't embarrass yourself by arguing. The spider-sense works however the current writer wants it to work, since it has precedent as both types of functions. The spider-sense has given Spider-Man the ability to move through a danger-laden obstacle course (like the Danger Room, or something, with lots of guns firing) untouched with his eyes closed. He can outdo Daredevil when it comes to that kind of thing, if the writer desires it.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
The only reason I'd be an "atrocious" prosecutor is because I'd be an ineffective one. Unlike stupid people, I believe in actual consequences more than moral nonsense, which is what people usually use to sway juries. Either a person is dangerous or not. People don't presecute this way, because they have to lower themselves to suit the ignorant children who sit in the jury box. Another reason I'd make an ineffective prosecutor is because I don't compromise on issues of violent crime. I wouldn't spend two seconds prosecuting someone like Daredevil for frightening that poor, persectured criminal with a weak heart, but I'd hit the Fixer with everything I had. No pansy-ass compromises. That's why I'm not right for the job. I care more about protecting innocents than climbing the career ladder.

You've proven beyond a doubt you don't understand how the District Attorney's office does things, and you're far from learned about homicide charges and what they mean. You repeat your arguments again and again without touching on the truth. I don't know where your biases come from, but you should work on it before they destroy your ability to argue completely.

Wow, the world is black and white. Either you're right or you're wrong, dangerous or not eh? Great, America really needs more people like you :rolleyes:

Right so despite that Daredevil broke the law for violent assult, vigilantism (which leads to copycats and more open violence) and homicide it's ok? If we had more people like you presiding over things modern society would be screwed. If DD is ok someone assulting someone else for rape would be ok too then. Then revenge attacks would also be ok too as well as people, many of which would not be in a right mind, taking the law in to their hands is also ok. Good call.

Me biased? Says Herr-vigilantism-is-ok-Logan who let's personal opinion cloud their judgement of the law. Says the person who doesn't seem to get the involuntary is something which does not have predetermined intent. Says the person who thinks that a good method of comprimising is starting with a low aim and getting the worst result. That would look real good for their career :rolleyes:

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
Spider-Man's spider-sense waffles back and forth between giving Spider-Man a vague sense of danger with no details and telling him exactly how he must move to avoid the danger. I read the comics. This is irrefutable, so don't embarrass yourself by arguing. The spider-sense works however the current writer wants it to work, since it has precedent as both types of functions. The spider-sense has given Spider-Man the ability to move through a danger-laden obstacle course (like the Danger Room, or something, with lots of guns firing) untouched with his eyes closed. He can outdo Daredevil when it comes to that kind of thing, if the writer desires it.

The original Spiderman, did not have this ability. Spiderman can kick old ladies in the shins if the writer desires it but it doesn't happen a lot. Spidey sense, in every comic that I have read of his, is very vague and doesn't present a predetermined path.

[Herr Logan]

See if you can follow this:

Murder 1: Intentional and premeditated homicide with malice aforethought.

Murder 2: Intentional murder.

Manslaughter 1: Accidental murder with aggressive intent.

Manslaughter 2: Accidental murder through negligence.


You don't understand how compromising in that fashion helps one's career? I'm not surprised. It's not about actual results, it's about playing it safe and getting the win. That makes their record look good and that's what helps them win elections.

You can either go run and ask Paladin how this stuff works, or you can go learn for yourself, like I have.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
The original Spiderman, did not have this ability. Spiderman can kick old ladies in the shins if the writer desires it but it doesn't happen a lot. Spidey sense, in every comic that I have read of his, is very vague and doesn't present a predetermined path.

You really are hopeless. I can't believe you bothered to argue with me on this. You lose, pure and simple. The comics that you've read aren't relavent here. I told you that it has worked both ways. That's something you can't possibly disprove without reading every single issue, and since you haven't, my assertion can be verified if just one other person has read what I have, which would be Spider-Man using his reflexes in conjunction with his spider-sense to avoid bullets and bigger obstacles on instinct. Great job. :up: You stick to your assertions about Daredevil if you want, but don't even try to tell me what's what with regard to Spider-Man.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Did I say DD's clubs WEREN'T throwing weapons? No. I said that you'd be hardpressed to use it to kill someone by hitting them in the chest from some distance away. Obviously, Bullseye has a great throwing arm.

I didn't say Spider-Sense told him where danger was coming from. But, going by the movie, he has enhanced reflexes which border on precognition. It's not perfect, he still gets hit, but he might be able to see it coming.

But how selective is Matt's radar sense? It can allow him to avoid dozens of glass shards without even a scratch, yet he can't detect Elektra behind a sheet. Have you seen someone somersaulting? It's like anything rotating around a base. His arms and legs are moving, but his center is merely ROTATING. So why doesn't he get a dozen glass shards in the stomach or the small of his back? Movie magic!

By the way, much more people prefer the comics costume then the movie costume. MUCH more. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81011)

If you actually read the comics you would know it varies from being able to detect a voice in the middle of the whole of New York to not being there at all. Of course you only pretend to so I'll let that slip.

Granted that he was very stiff but the way your back archs when sommersaulting means that it is not simply turning on an axis. You have about one foot which you can hit which is the place where there is always bound to be a target only if DD doesn't change the height of his sommersaults which is something you can't tell from a birds eye view.

Again, taking a poll out of context does not prove anything. That is a poll in the comics section asking people which costume they prefer in general. Of course fans will say the original red. However I doubt many people would prefer this...

http://www.fanartists.com/gallery/data/602/146original_fan_costume.jpg

instead of what they got in the film which was still very faithful and liked by fans and non fans a like.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
See if you can follow this:

Murder 1: Intentional and premeditated homicide with malice aforethought.

Murder 2: Intentional murder.

Manslaughter 1: Accidental murder with aggressive intent.

Manslaughter 2: Accidental murder through negligence.


You don't understand how compromising in that fashion helps one's career? I'm not surprised. It's not about actual results, it's about playing it safe and getting the win. That makes their record look good and that's what helps them win elections.

You can either go run and ask Paladin how this stuff works, or you can go learn for yourself, like I have.

Oh I guess Daredevil was just strolling along in a devil costume, with a club when he accidentally beat some guys up. I guess he didn't mean to chase the fixer till he had a heart attack. None of the violent assult or chasing is aggressive enough to be voluntary manslaughter. :rolleyes: Face it, it would never reach involuntary mansalughter.

They're going to get a conviction in any matter as no jury is going to pardon intentional violence. It's just a question of what the prosecutor is going to aim for. You might as well aim for assult 'just to play it safe' :rolleyes: That does not make a good comprimise. You aim high to get decent realistic results which looks good for you.

Like you learnt about forensics on CSI? :rolleyes:

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
You really are hopeless. I can't believe you bothered to argue with me on this. You lose, pure and simple. The comics that you've read aren't relavent here. I told you that it has worked both ways. That's something you can't possibly disprove without reading every single issue, and since you haven't, my assertion can be verified if just one other person has read what I have, which would be Spider-Man using his reflexes in conjunction with his spider-sense to avoid bullets and bigger obstacles on instinct. Great job. :up: You stick to your assertions about Daredevil if you want, but don't even try to tell me what's what with regard to Spider-Man.

Spiderman can dodge bullets. You are trying to tell me that Spidey can dodge bullets. Jesus, I'm glad I haven't read the ones that you've read. They must have been great issues :rolleyes:

[Herr Logan]

Juries, judges, and proescuters let violent offenders off very often. If you don't know that, then you best hope that you and those close to you are never the victim of violence, since there's every chance in the world that the perp will either be let off extremely easy, won't make it to trial at all, will have the charges dropped, or will be found innocent.

I'm not even going to count "Man Without Fear" here. In the original story, Daredevil chased the fixer and he died of a heart attack. That's manslaughter one at the very most, and in the real world, there's a 50/50 chance that would be reduced to involuntary manslaughter or "depraved indifference" for not calling the cops when he had a heart attack. The only reason an intelligent jury would have a problem with Murdock in that instance is because he's wearign a devil costume and seems like he's missing a few screws.

I don't watch "CSI". I've heard things about the show, and it sounds like they use a lot of forensic methods that I've read about in school.

Are you saying that you actually didn't know Spider-Man could dodge bullets? I know you're being sarcastic, but I can't tell what your point is. If you didn't know that Spider-Man routinely dodges bullets and that it's a well-known and firmly grounded fact, then you have given up all further rights to argue anything about Spider-Man with me. Either you know the basics, or you don't. I know the basics and the details, so just stick to facts about Daredevil if you want to keep any semblance of dignity.

[Quentin Black]

With the evidence put forward and more than a few witnesses against DD he's not going to get off.

Have you even read the comic? He happened to beat up a lot of guys before chasing fixer and watching him have a heart attack (a result of strain) before he walked away. He had intention to assult fixer and probable cause to kill him. It would get charged as murder two and argued down to voluntary manslaughter (not manslaughter one). You'd have to be the most incompetent prosecutor to not get voluntary manslaughter.

Spiderman can not dodge bullets. That is ridiculous and certainly not the Spidey I grew up reading. On one hand you're BSing on the other you have ruined Spidey for me and quite a few people. Nice one :up:

If he can dodge bullets it just means that him getting cut in the film is the instance of being unfaithful and the problem lies with Spidey's powers being watered down and not with DD.

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
With the evidence put forward and more than a few witnesses against DD he's not going to get off.

Have you even read the comic? He happened to beat up a lot of guys before chasing fixer and watching him have a heart attack (a result of strain) before he walked away. He had intention to assult fixer and probable cause to kill him. It would get charged as murder two and argued down to voluntary manslaughter (not manslaughter one). You'd have to be the most incompetent prosecutor to not get voluntary manslaughter.

Spiderman can not dodge bullets. That is ridiculous and certainly not the Spidey I grew up reading. On one hand you're BSing on the other you have ruined Spidey for me and quite a few people. Nice one :up:

You don't know a damn thing about Spider-Man. Everything you've said is now suspect, and you've proven youir lack of understanding and knowledge. Now who's the pretender? Anybody with rudamentary knowledge of Spider-Man knows he can dodge bullets, and has been doing this from the beginning.

Daredevil didn't kill the people he beat up before chasing the Fixer. There's no proof that he would have killed him. Therefore, it's manslaughter at the most.

You've failed miserably at making a valid argument. You've lowered yourself time and again, hypocritically calling Zev a pretender and generally making an ass out of yourself. You've shown your cards, and you came up short. You've failed. Any real Spider-Man reader knows what you're too ignorant to have learned. Congrats. Now I'm done with you. Go ahead and try to reclaim the appearance of knowing what your talking about for the benefit of weak-minded children like RaginCajun and his ilk, but we both know you're a fraud, and a nasty one at that. I'll be here laughing at Zev make you look like an idiot, but I doubt I'll continue to actually patake in this idiotic exercise. Good luck defending your points, or at least educating yourself enough so that you have a point.

Spider sense (http://www.alaph.com/spiderman/powers_abilities/sense.html)

[ComicGeek-86]

Actually Quentin, according to the Marvel Directory, Spider-man CAN dodge bullets given that he's an ample distance away and is paying attention.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
You don't know a damn thing about Spider-Man. Everything you've said is now suspect, and you've proven youir lack of understanding and knowledge. Now who's the pretender? Anybody with rudamentary knowledge of Spider-Man knows he can dodge bullets, and has been doing this from the beginning.

Daredevil didn't kill the people he beat up before chasing the Fixer. There's no proof that he would have killed him. Therefore, it's manslaughter at the most.

You've failed miserably at making a valid argument. You've lowered yourself time and again, hypocritically calling Zev a pretender and generally making an ass out of yourself. You've shown your cards, and you came up short. You've failed. Any real Spider-Man reader knows what you're too ignorant to have learned. Congrats. Now I'm done with you. Go ahead and try to reclaim the appearance of knowing what your talking about for the benefit of weak-minded children like RaginCajun and his ilk, but we both know you're a fraud, and a nasty one at that. I'll be here laughing at Zev make you look like an idiot, but I doubt I'll continue to actually patake in this idiotic exercise. Good luck defending your points, or at least educating yourself enough so that you have a point.

Spider sense (http://www.alaph.com/spiderman/powers_abilities/sense.html)

Wow, not knowing one fact negates everything I've said. :rolleyes: That's like not knowing how Superman's impenetrable skin works. It doesn't affect squat other than my opinion of the character and how his powers work.

He has probable cause which has been enough to prosecute a lot of people in reality.

I have read a lot of Spiderman old and new and he's never done this. This is your trump card? "You didn't know one fact that is rarely displayed in comics so you know squat and your arguement doesn't count?" Weak.

The insults have come from both sides but since double standards seem to be in fashion it's ok to support Zev.

Zev has shown he doesn't know about the basic characters, the powers as well as the history of Daredevil despite claiming to be a fan. I have shown I don't know one fact about Spidey becuase I have never seen it in the many comics I have read of Spidey, including ones I have seen of his against the likes of trigger happy people like the Punisher. My arguement takes facts from the comics and general knowledge to disprove all those very false facts be it about forensics, characters or law.

Oh but since I didn't know that Spidey can dodge bullets (despite showing I have a better grasp of the characters of Spiderman than Zev, something even you agreed on) it negates everything. :rolleyes: That is your whole hand and all you have to give? Lol, please try again Herr.

PS it only means that the Spidey film got another thing wrong.

[Zev]

Bullets = Only capable of moving in a straight line, propelled by outer forces.

Razor-bats = Capable of independent navigation, self-propelled.

If there wasn't a difference, Green Goblin would have just pulled out a gun and shot Spider-Man. Instead, he used multiple Razor-bats to try to confuse and harry Spider-Man, showing his cunning and natural strategy.

Here's another difference between you and me. When I make a mistake (Macy Grey), I admit it and move on. When you make a mistake (Dirty Dog), you make up ridiculous excuses and insult people.

Apparently, you also don't see the importance of having friends. Friends stick up for you when you're not around. They forgive you when you act like an ass (which is why I'm not running around insulting Cajun and posting 'STFU' pictures from Ebaum's World). When you've been drinking, they keep you from sleeping with that transvestite flowing with STDs. Friends are like enemies in reverse, to quote Gary Busey. They'll be there for you, like they've been there before. And when you sponteneously break into song, who's there to provide chorus? F-r-i-e-n-d-s.

It's a horrible thing to be without friends. You become bitter. You stop laughing (ever notice it's easier to laugh at a comedy when you're watching it with other people?). Ladies and gentlemen, feel sorry for Quentin Black. He has no friends. Do you think Ben Affleck is going to be a pall-bearer at his funeral and pay him back for supporting him? Nope.

And I don't trust any man who can look at these pictures and tell me with a straight face "Now that's who should play Daredevil!"

http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap111.jpg
http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap194.jpg

By the way, Friend Cajun, my avatar is from a rom hack turning Elevator into The Matrix, thus combining my two great loves, The Matrix and Nintendo. Ah, Metroid, please be turned into a John Woo film soon (really, he's going to be producing a Metroid movie. I wonder if Nintendo Power is going to rerelease those rocking Super Metroid comic strips when it comes out).

[KenK]

those photos are of Gigli, which was filmed after Daredevil. There are plenty of stupid pictures of Tobey Maguire.

[Herr Logan]

Tobey Maguire would have perfect for "Spider-Man" if the script had been any good. He was wasted. Un-freaking-believable how they had a guy who had a decent Parker face, an absolutely perfect Parker physique, and enough acting talent and comic delivery to be the perfect Spider-Man and they just wasted him.

[Zev]

Isn't it amazing how someone that hates Spider-Man and someone who loved it can both agree that Daredevil sucks?

Just compare their teasers. Spider-Man's is funny, professional, and most of all, coherent. Sure, it was pulled because of 9/11, but it got you PUMPED to see Spider-Man onscreen.

Now, what about Daredevil?

Teaser trailer (http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/daredevil/teaser_large.html)

As far as I can tell, there's a guy in red leather crouching on a rooftop, then I went into an EPILEPTIC SEIZURE!

Speaking of trailers, in the spirit of The Punisher of the Dead...



TOBEY MAGUIRE

AUNT MAY: I believe there are robots among us. They're fueled by old people's medicine...

PETER PARKER stands in the doorway.

PETER: C'mon, Aunt May, you're being paranoid.

An AIBO watches Peter.

EXT. FOOD STAND

An irate PAKISTANI talks to Peter.

PAKISTANI: Always late!

PETER: It's my alarm clock...

INT. BEDROOM

Peter pulls up his alarm clock's power cord. It's been cut.

INT. DAILY BUGLE

JJ: You're fired!

EXT. COLLEGE

CURT CONNORS, a man with one organic arm and one mechanical, talks to Peter.

CURT: Your grades are slipping...

PETER: I'm doing my best.

CURT: Listen (he holds up his mechanical arm), this arm grades your scanning sheet and the answers you bubbled in were wrong.

PETER: Even my name?

CURT: ESPECIALLY your name.

EXT. BUILDING

MARY-JANE: I can't stop thinking about you. I bought a vibrator.

PETER: NOOOOOOOOO!!!

INT. BAXTER BUILDING

Spider-Man talks to REED, SUE, and JOHNNY.

SPIDER-MAN: I'll take all of you on!

JOHNNY: Even that pussy Benjamin Grimm?

SPIDER-MAN: Especially that pussy... he's right behind me, isn't he?

THING: Listen, we're a nonprofit organization. If you want to get paid for fighting crime, join the cops.

CLOSE-UP on Spider-Man, thinking.

WILL SMITH

Will Smith picks up a cell-phone.

SMITH: Homicide.

GUY FROM BOSTON PUBLIC: Will, I want you to meet your new partner.

Peter walks in.

PETER: Hi, I just got done talking with Walker and Pilgrim from Powers Unit. They just keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and...

SMITH: C'mon, we've got a case.

INT. OSCORP

OTTO OCTAVIUS is dead, his four 'waldos' shoved through his chest.

OSBORN: Dr. Octavius was going to take this company to new heighs. Coffee?

SMITH: Yes please.

OSBORN: If there's anything I can do to help...

SMITH: Sugar.

OSBORN: For your coffee?

SMITH: No, I'm diabetic.

INT. SQUAD CAR

PETER: Listen, Will, I think there's something up with Osborn.

SMITH: Like what?

INT. OSCORP

OSBORN: SHARON!? Are these my pumpkin bombs? Why are they in a purple purse? I'm the Goblin of ^_^^_^^_^^_^ing Greenness!

INT. POLICE STATION

GUY FROM BOSTON PUBLIC: How many robots have ever commited a crime? How many robots in the WORLD have ever hurt someone?

PETER: Not counting Ultron, Doombots, Sentinels, Spider-Slayers...

SMITH: This could take a while.

PETER: The Super-Adaptoid, MODOK, MODAM, MOKID...

INT. OSCORP

OSBORN: There is no conspiracy!

SMITH: 'Cept maybe to keep you from getting a good mask. Listen, bub, when Alex Ross draws, you sure as ^_^^_^^_^^_^ LISTEN!

http://www.alexrossart.com/gallery/misc/spiderman/img/goblin_headLG.jpg

EXT. GAS STATION

Smith walks towards an eighteen-wheeler.

PETER: Wait!

SMITH: What, it's just a truck?

PETER: There's more then meets the eye.

The eighteen-wheeler TRANSFORMS into OPTIMUS PRIME!

I, SPIDER-MAN

MR. FANTASTIC: H.E.R.B.I.E., hand me the hydrospanner.

H.E.R.B.I.E.: *Meep* you, biatch!

H.E.R.B.I.E. hits him with the wrench, err, hydrospanner.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Again, taking a poll out of context does not prove anything. That is a poll in the comics section asking people which costume they prefer in general. Of course fans will say the original red. However I doubt many people would prefer this...

http://www.fanartists.com/gallery/data/602/146original_fan_costume.jpg


Because a costume designed by a professional and worn by an actor who's bulked up (ala, HEY, Spider-Man), would bare SO much resemblance to a fan-made costume.

How is it out of context when I say that more people like the red costume then the movie costume? That's the point of the poll!

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Bullets = Only capable of moving in a straight line, propelled by outer forces.

Razor-bats = Capable of independent navigation, self-propelled.

If there wasn't a difference, Green Goblin would have just pulled out a gun and shot Spider-Man. Instead, he used multiple Razor-bats to try to confuse and harry Spider-Man, showing his cunning and natural strategy.

Here's another difference between you and me. When I make a mistake (Macy Grey), I admit it and move on. When you make a mistake (Dirty Dog), you make up ridiculous excuses and insult people.

Apparently, you also don't see the importance of having friends. Friends stick up for you when you're not around. They forgive you when you act like an ass (which is why I'm not running around insulting Cajun and posting 'STFU' pictures from Ebaum's World). When you've been drinking, they keep you from sleeping with that transvestite flowing with STDs. Friends are like enemies in reverse, to quote Gary Busey. They'll be there for you, like they've been there before. And when you sponteneously break into song, who's there to provide chorus? F-r-i-e-n-d-s.

It's a horrible thing to be without friends. You become bitter. You stop laughing (ever notice it's easier to laugh at a comedy when you're watching it with other people?). Ladies and gentlemen, feel sorry for Quentin Black. He has no friends. Do you think Ben Affleck is going to be a pall-bearer at his funeral and pay him back for supporting him? Nope.

You forgot the fact that bullets move around a thousand times faster and happen to be a lot harder to dodge. If Spiderman can dodge bullets he can also dodge razorbats with ease.

Actually there are numerous occasions where I have admited there were problems and would admit that there are problems. You proved that yourself. However when you claim a film is unfaithful when it's the most faithful comic film and post post upon post of nitpicks about nonexistant problems or problems that all the other comics films had, often worse, then I'm not going to let it go because you're trolling.

I have many friends, just because I have no desire to be friends with someone who so arrogant and simple to contradict himself and troll with false information, it doesn't negate that.

BTW, the insults come from both sides so you really can't start complaining. That's like the pot calling the kettle black, but I guess since you have duble standards that's perfectly fine. :rolleyes:

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Because a costume designed by a professional and worn by an actor who's bulked up (ala, HEY, Spider-Man), would bare SO much resemblance to a fan-made costume.

How is it out of context when I say that more people like the red costume then the movie costume? That's the point of the poll!

Take the Spiderman costume, add all the shading effects make it completely red, add some horns and make the mask open mouth and put a 6 ft 4 guy in it. Put him in a dark bar fighting in close quarters...no still doesn't work.

It's out of context because it's asking what costume they would like in general. A majority would prefer the movie one for the movie. Even haters of the film thought it was a great design.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
You forgot the fact that bullets move around a thousand times faster and happen to be a lot harder to dodge. If Spiderman can dodge bullets he can also dodge razorbats with ease.

Quentin! Bullets move in STRAIGHT LINES! Once you dodge them, you don't have to worry about it. Razor-Bats circle around, try to attack you. That means NOT ONLY does Spider-Man have to fight Green Goblin and dodge the Razor-Bats, he also has to try and take some out of commission.

But we're not talking about Spider-Man. We're talking about Daredevil. You say we can't tell if Daredevil is varying the height of his somersaults from a bird's eye view. BS. If he were, he would be either CLOSER TO or FURTHER AWAY from the camera. He isn't. It's ridiculous.

How would you like it if, at the end of Spider-Man, Goblin up-ended his bag and dropped all his Pumpkin Bombs at Spider-Man, who took one step to the left and none of them hit him?

Not to mention, when Spider-Man dodged the Razor-Bats, he actually CONTORTED his body. He did splits and stuff. Daredevil JUST somersaulted backwards.

Actually there are numerous occasions where I have admited there were problems and would admit that there are problems. You proved that yourself. However when you claim a film is unfaithful when it's the most faithful comic film and post post upon post of nitpicks about nonexistant problems or problems that all the other comics films had, often worse, then I'm not going to let it go because you're trolling.

You haven't admitted the problems to me. You always have a half-assed explanation, like 'the words 'Dirty Dog' fade into the beat'. You just don't like being proven wrong, so I have to dig through old threads to prove you a hypocrit. You said 'who would be better then Jennifer Garner as Elektra' and I showed you a thread where you said she was the weak link of the casting!

I have many friends, just because I have no desire to be friends with someone who so arrogant and simple to contradict himself and troll with false information, it doesn't negate that.

Face it, Quentin, your only other supporter, RaginCajun, has admitted that his support for you was only because he had a bad day at the office. He thought Daredevil was merely watchable. You think it's the best Marvel movie ever.

BTW, the insults come from both sides so you really can't start complaining. That's like the pot calling the kettle black, but I guess since you have duble standards that's perfectly fine. :rolleyes:

But who STARTED the insults? You can't expect me not to start fighting fire with fire when you call me "slow" and a "pretender".

Can you show me one place in the bar fight where Daredevil took a punch? I admit, it's not easy since the editting was done by a monkey with Alzheimer's (no, not your mother), but still...

Also, in that scene, Daredevil grabs a guy and uses him as a human shield to defend himself from bullets. We know he can dodge bullets, so he just killed that guy for being a thug. It's like if Jackie Chan broke some guy's neck in a fight for no reason. What's with that?

"Even haters of the film think it was a great design"? I'm a hater of the film and I think it was a horrible design. Or does my opinion not count? And how come you say that a 'majority' would prefer the movie costume for the movie? I thought you didn't care for 'statistics'. I guess only when they serve you, right?

Coming soon!

ECLF: Alright, great party everyone! But while everyone has had fun tonight, everyone has not Wang Chunged tonight. Will the offending parties please Wang Chung before they leave?


ELEKTRA: Don't be fooled by the sais I ply, I'm still Elly from the block. The GREEK block!

PLUS!

Mary-Gwen Watson, Mighty Morphing Power Goblin, and Sk8er Boi Spidey!

http://www.alexrossart.com/gallery/misc/spiderman/img/spidermanLG.jpg

The eagerly-awaited Five-Minute Spider-Man. Proof that with great power comes a great franchise.

[Herr Logan]

YES!! Oh, how I've waited! *cackles*

[Zev]

Well, you know what they say about good things...

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by Zev
Well, you know what they say about good things...

Satan always names the price? :confused:

[Zev]

They come to those who wait... and in threes, but that's neither here nor there.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
But who STARTED the insults? You can't expect me not to start fighting fire with fire when you call me "slow" and a "pretender".

Can you show me one place in the bar fight where Daredevil took a punch? I admit, it's not easy since the editting was done by a monkey with Alzheimer's (no, not your mother), but still...

Also, in that scene, Daredevil grabs a guy and uses him as a human shield to defend himself from bullets. We know he can dodge bullets, so he just killed that guy for being a thug. It's like if Jackie Chan broke some guy's neck in a fight for no reason. What's with that?

"Even haters of the film think it was a great design"? I'm a hater of the film and I think it was a horrible design. Or does my opinion not count? And how come you say that a 'majority' would prefer the movie costume for the movie? I thought you didn't care for 'statistics'. I guess only when they serve you, right?

Find me the post where I started it for I did not call you pretender until much later on when you showed that you were in fact pretending to know and like Daredevil.

It's very easy. Off the top of my head there was one point where he gets hit in to a booth. Not exactly hard to follow.

It's pretty basic knowledge that DD can't dodge bullets. What else is he supposed to do in that situation? Be shot? :rolleyes:

Considering your ideas on the comics I don't think your opinion should count but you should care to note that I didn't say that all haters of the film liked it, I stated that haters, as in an amount of haters, liked the costume. You're the one who's trying to prove the point with a statistic, I'm just telling why that statistic is wrong.

[Herr Logan]

Daredevil in the comics dodges bullets as well. ;) Maybe it's a tad unrealistic for Daredevil to be doing something that only people like Spider-Man should be able to do, but you've got Wolverine, the Batman, and other characters who aren't superhumanly strong or fast doing it. Crazy world, comics.

Zev: so Satan doesn't name the price of good things? It's not like in "Needful Things?" :(

[Zev]

Never read Needful Things, so I don't know the price of good things. So could it be... SATAN?!?!?!

Why, Quentin, I'm shocked. After a full page of explaining how Daredevil's dodging abilities were GREATER then Spider-Man's (which, as has been conclusively proven, include dodging bullets), you say that Daredevil couldn't dodge bullets? Make up your mind.

[Zev]

When you come right down to it, Daredevil the movie incorporates some of the worst aspects of Daredevil the comic. The relentless disregard for human life from Man Without Fear, the hoaky 'love-at-first-sight' meeting from the Elektra Saga (with its stupidity multiplied by a kung-fu fight in broad daylight in a crowded playground. I know, I know, blasphemer, but I prefer the Ultimate Elektra & Matt Murdock version), the armored DD from Fall From Grace, etc. It's as if Sam Raimi said Chapter One was going to be his primary inspiration for Spider-Man.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

hey zev, whats up...

when you say the amored DD...do you mean the suit that is
black red and silver ?

[Zev]

Yes. The elements of it wasn't the color scheme, it was the idea that Daredevil needed protection. He takes his lumps like a boxer and usually dodges (which is a lot harder in leather, which is heavier and more restrictive then spandex or whatever).

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Yeah, i think that costume is cooler looking too.

[Herr Logan]

Overall, spandex chafes less, I imagine. Unless you've got a steel micromesh armor layer woven in, like it was in the comics a while ago. Thanks to the divied-up Marvel properties spread among numerous warring production companies, they can't have Reed Richards throw a little sumthin'-sumthin' Murdock's way, be it money, that sensory dep tank, his bootleg Batcave, or a thin but bulletproof costume. As it is, leather won't do a damn thing against the kind of danger Daredevil actually needs to worry about. He rarely ever gets shot, but if he does, he'll need something more than biker chic to keep his body unleaded.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

agreed....what costume is DD wearing these days ??

[Herr Logan]

Classic Red, thank God. Spends a lot of time out of costume now, and I don't know how much he'll be in it in stories to come, seeing as he's "out". Secret identity or public identity, they should keep costumed superheroes in their God damn costumes. That's something filmmakers don't get.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Why, Quentin, I'm shocked. After a full page of explaining how Daredevil's dodging abilities were GREATER then Spider-Man's (which, as has been conclusively proven, include dodging bullets), you say that Daredevil couldn't dodge bullets? Make up your mind.

What...can't you read? Oh, wait I already knew you couldn't. Daredevil can do what he did in the film which is dodge things thrown at him by predicting their trajectory. He can't dodge bullets. As far as my comics go Spidey has never been able to dodge bullets but since you guys claim he can do that he has better dodging ability than DD (despite it also being said in the comics that DD's enhanced senses are better than his Spidey sense) he should be able to dodge those razorbats with ease. This is a fault with the Spidey film. I know perfectly well what DD can or can't do but it is the interpretations of SPidey's ability that seem to be inconsistent.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
As it is, leather won't do a damn thing against the kind of danger Daredevil actually needs to worry about. He rarely ever gets shot, but if he does, he'll need something more than biker chic to keep his body unleaded.

That leather is going to protect him against slashes, punches and grazes where as spandex would just rip to shreds in the type of fights DD gets in to. It makes a lot more sense. You have to strike a balance between somthing that is going to offer some protection (full body armour) and something that is going to be flexible to fight in (tights). That modified leather suit with thin areas around joints for movement does that.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
What...can't you read? Oh, wait I already knew you couldn't. Daredevil can do what he did in the film which is dodge things thrown at him by predicting their trajectory. He can't dodge bullets. As far as my comics go Spidey has never been able to dodge bullets but since you guys claim he can do that he has better dodging ability than DD (despite it also being said in the comics that DD's enhanced senses are better than his Spidey sense) he should be able to dodge those razorbats with ease. This is a fault with the Spidey film. I know perfectly well what DD can or can't do but it is the interpretations of SPidey's ability that seem to be inconsistent.

You're telling me Daredevil couldn't hear the click of a hammer being pulled back or a round being chambered and get out of the way? He couldn't predict the bullets' trajectory and move out of the way. We're not talking about going from a standstill, getting shot out, and moving out of the way, we're talking about him being IN CONSTANT MOTION. You point a gun at Daredevil, he hears you doing it, hears your heart speeding up to shoot, and dodges before you pull the trigger. Spider-Man, same thing, only his Spider-Sense goes off.

Spider-Man has the proportionate agility and speed of a spider, he can move faster then Daredevil. Ever notice no one complains about him making giant leaps while Daredevil catches tons of flack from everyone with a brain in their head for the same? That's because Spider-Man is superhuman and Daredevil is merely human, albeit one with supersenses.

You say you know perfectly well what Daredevil can or can't do. Let's review.

CAN: Recover from stab wound to evade and eliminate Bullseye, then swing across town to take out Kingpin.

CAN'T: Recover in time to save his girlfriend after her hand is stabbed, her throat is slit (or cut, depending on if you're an annoying punk who takes things too literally), and she's held by Bullseye as he makes his intent to kill her quite clear.

CAN: Hear a cry for help from across town, a sniper preparing to fire from across the street, etc.

CAN'T: Hear an adrenaline-pumped assassin hiding behind a sheet.

CAN: Function day-to-day with no one catching on that he has super-hearing.

CAN'T: Stand the sound of a subway train or a church bell.

CAN: Star in a good comic book.

CAN'T: Star in a good movie.

There are plenty of things stronger then spandex that permit the same or an only slightly lessened amount of movement. For example, spider silk is up to FIVE TIMES stronger then steel of the same diameter. Kevlar, in police work, is usually fortified with steel plates in the chest. Just take those out and thin it out and you have a pretty good costume (prison guards wear a different form of kevlar to protect against slashes and such). Some divers wear sharksuits which protect them from lacerations and bites (although not from the pressure of a shark's jaws). I found that in about five minutes on google.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

CAN: Star in a good comic book.

CAN'T: Star in a good movie.


thats true... but maybe Affleck was the problem ..,what you think Zev ?

[Zev]

I think it was a big part of the problem. I don't think many people can buy Affleck doing angst. He works best as a smartass pretty-boy or part of an essemble, but once you take him out of his environment, he sinks.

Of course, the script is really too blame. How hard is it not to make Daredevil kill people? That's the entire point of the character. What Captain America is to patriotism, Daredevil is to the justice system.

And, of course, it's just too busy. There are three definitive origin stories for Daredevil, not counting the Ultimate incarnation which was influenced by the movie and is therefore out of bounds. The original Stan Lee story is basically the Cliff's Notes. It's the framework you hang the story on, just like Green Goblin or God Loves, Man Kills. Then you expand on it. There's a lot to learn from Man Without Fear, although it's not the be-all and end-all of Daredevil origins. A very nice, dark story which is true to Frank Miller's Daredevil. Then there's Daredevil: Yellow, which highlights the little-seen light side of Daredevil.

The thinking was, I believe, that since the light side was empathized on Spider-Man (the first three-quarters are pretty cheery, aside from Uncle Ben's death. It's hard to see the downside of being Spider-Man until the end.), the best way to differenciate the two movies was to make Daredevil dark. I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with Daredevil killing people if he didn't do such light, cheerful things as the fight with Elektra. Who, by the way, was completely ruined as a character. But, since Rob Bowman is a badass, in the Elektra spinoff she's gonna be that Stick-trained, Hand-employed, ninja assassin we know and love.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
You're telling me Daredevil couldn't hear the click of a hammer being pulled back or a round being chambered and get out of the way? He couldn't predict the bullets' trajectory and move out of the way. We're not talking about going from a standstill, getting shot out, and moving out of the way, we're talking about him being IN CONSTANT MOTION. You point a gun at Daredevil, he hears you doing it, hears your heart speeding up to shoot, and dodges before you pull the trigger. Spider-Man, same thing, only his Spider-Sense goes off.

Spider-Man has the proportionate agility and speed of a spider, he can move faster then Daredevil. Ever notice no one complains about him making giant leaps while Daredevil catches tons of flack from everyone with a brain in their head for the same? That's because Spider-Man is superhuman and Daredevil is merely human, albeit one with supersenses.

You say you know perfectly well what Daredevil can or can't do. Let's review.

CAN: Recover from stab wound to evade and eliminate Bullseye, then swing across town to take out Kingpin.

CAN'T: Recover in time to save his girlfriend after her hand is stabbed, her throat is slit (or cut, depending on if you're an annoying punk who takes things too literally), and she's held by Bullseye as he makes his intent to kill her quite clear.

CAN: Hear a cry for help from across town, a sniper preparing to fire from across the street, etc.

CAN'T: Hear an adrenaline-pumped assassin hiding behind a sheet.

CAN: Function day-to-day with no one catching on that he has super-hearing.

CAN'T: Stand the sound of a subway train or a church bell.

CAN: Star in a good comic book.

CAN'T: Star in a good movie.

There are plenty of things stronger then spandex that permit the same or an only slightly lessened amount of movement. For example, spider silk is up to FIVE TIMES stronger then steel of the same diameter. Kevlar, in police work, is usually fortified with steel plates in the chest. Just take those out and thin it out and you have a pretty good costume (prison guards wear a different form of kevlar to protect against slashes and such). Some divers wear sharksuits which protect them from lacerations and bites (although not from the pressure of a shark's jaws). I found that in about five minutes on google.

No, he can't. He can dodge the odd bullet if it was far enough and distinct enough (like the sniper) but with with a dozen guys all firing at once he's not going to be able to move out the way of them all.

His powers vary and if he's in control of the situation he can funtion fine but depending on the situation it let's him down. The part where he gets overpowered by a train is directly from the comics. He never actually recovers from his stab wound but he has no option but to find a sanctuary to recover when his is forced in to a fight when Bullseye corners him. That was not optional. It's only finding out that Kingpin killed his father does he really get pumped for a fight against all the odds, that is why the fact that Fisk killed his father is so important. The only query I would accept is him not spotting Elektra immediately but I find that a nitpick since he knew she was in the area and the only way she surprised him was with a distraction.

Spider Silk would be a nice option if it was available for commercial purchase. A modified biker suit (what he has in the film) actually has kevlar incorporated in it and it only costs a few hundred (plus a hundred more for modifications to make it more flexible). A solely kevlar vest costs a few hundred to a thousand let alone getting a custom made suit with modified thin kevlar. As for the shark suits the ones that offer them any protection happen to be made out of steel mesh and aren't commercially common.

The modified motorcycle suit is the most easily purchasible and affordable and strikes the perfect balance between weight, flexibilty and protection.

[Herr Logan]

Steel mesh? Wow. That would be such a bad idea for him to use that, wouldn't it? They wouldn't do that in the comics, would they? :rolleyes:

[Herr Logan]

Steel mesh? Wow. That would be such a bad idea for him to use that, wouldn't it? They wouldn't do that in the comics, would they? :rolleyes:

[kamillon66]

worst moments in comic book movies...that's easy Batman & Robin.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
Steel mesh? Wow. That would be such a bad idea for him to use that, wouldn't it? They wouldn't do that in the comics, would they? :rolleyes:

lets hope not

[Zev]

If Daredevil didn't want a dozen guys shooting at him, he shouldn't have attacked Quesada in a crowded bar full of his men (?).

There's something called suspension of disbelief. We can see Daredevil in something that LOOKS like the comic version and assume it offers enough protection. He could even say "one of my clients offered some experimental fabric in lieu of payment. It offers as much protection as steel mesh, yet you could make a tutu out of it..." It's no more unbelievable then the Dare-Cave, the sensory deprivation chamber, etc. Just like how no one ever shoots Captain America in the legs or head when he's using his shield, we can just get past it.

Also, if Daredevil can't beat twelve men with guns, well, it's a damn good thing Kingpin sent his guards away, isn't it?

Also, the local Blockbuster doesn't carry Howard the Duck, so I'm gonna do a review of Hulk. Although it should be the Incredible Hulk, since a fifteen-foot-tall green man with superstrength is pretty damn incredible, you ask me. What's with the bland movie titles? Spider-Man 2? I much preferred the Amazing Spider-Man.

Hulk also has not one, but TWO blurry fight scenes (which, admittedly, look much better on DVD) and the biggest reminder of this being based on a comic book since the opening of Superman. Of course, THAT was respectful and classy and just neat.

FIVE-MINUTE DAREDEVIL PART 5, "ELECTRIC BOOGALOO"

DAREDEVIL: Meanwhile, halfway across the world...

MARV: In China?

DAREDEVIL: No. Hey, how'd you get in here?

MARV: Beating a priest for information. I get so confused without my pills. Like a dark hawk flirting across the night sky, the clouds like pimple juice squeezed from the zits of that crater-faced whore they call the moon...

SPIDER-MAN: Boy, I'm SO glad I got out of that phase.

DAREDEVIL: Hey, Frank Miller's a great writer!

SPIDER-MAN: I meant Todd McFarlene. I mean, look at Spawn.

WOLVERINE: Can't. Johnny the Homicidal Maniac whacked him twenty minutes ago.

DAREDEVIL: It's for the best. Anyway, in Ireland...

***

LUCKY: Stupid kids. They're always after me Lucky... GAK!

BULLSEYE: Thanks for the sugar high, man-with-shuriken-sticking-out-of-forehead. Notice my highly distinctive physical deformity (always a good thing for an assassin to have) and indiscriminate killing!

AUDIENCE: Hmm, I'm not getting that you're evil. Dumb it down a little more.

BULLSEYE: Heil Hitler!

PUPPY: Ouch! You kicked me!

AUDIENCE: Ahh, NOW we get it...

ANGRY MAN: Hey, I lost a game to you! You'd better showcase how badass you are by showing off your powers, just like Hugh Jackman would!

BULLSEYE: Okay... You'll be swell, you'll be great. Gonna have the whole world on a plate. Startin' here, startin' now. Honey, everything's comin' up roses...

ANGRY MAN: Argh! It wouldn't be so bad if you're legs weren't flailing like Celtic dancer Michael Flannery!

MESSAGE: Bullseye, get yo ass on a plane, you're gonna be flying all over this ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^. East Coast, West Coast, it don't matter. With Delta Airlines, you be up and a-bout in lickity-split. No ^_^^_^^_^^_^!

BULLSEYE: Hmm, maybe I can get a package deal with the Russian.

RUSSIAN: As long as you don't want to kill Daredevil.

BULLSEYE: No, that would make too much sense. Instead, I have to kill an elderly 'businessman'.

RUSSIAN: Ookie! Dokie!

***

FOGGY: Your client, Mr. Lee, he made his first payment.

MATT: Oh, that's great, you should be very happy.

FOGGY: Yes, it's fantastic. He paid in *fluke.* Fluke is a *fish,* Matt. Did you know that? 'Cause I sure as hell didn't.

MATT: Mr. Lee is a good man, and... he doesn't have a lot of money, and he goes fishing on the weekends, so I guess...

FOGGY: Yeah, and I go salsa dancing on the weekends, but I don't shake my ass to pay my phone bill, you know what I'm sayin'?

MATT: Wait, wait a minute, isn't this EXACTLY what happened in the movie?

MSJ: Yes, I like to put these little moments of comic authenticity into the movie to torment the fans. It's so great to get their hopes up, then dash them. For instance...

KAREN PAGE: Hi Matt. Party at Elektra's, JULY 14.

***

STRIKER: Nervous?

BULLSEYE: Yes.

STRIKER: First time?

BULLSEYE: No, I've been nervous lots of times.

STRIKER: Anyway, it was then that I developed my drinking problem...

BULLSEYE: What about your eating disorder?

STRIKER: Gasp! Horror! Shock! Awe! It's all in Terror From The Year 3000, coming SOON! GAK!

BULLSEYE: If only we had gone straight to the gay sex instead of talking...

***

ECLF: Hello, Matt, Elektra, Kingpin, Foggy, Urich, random extras. Be excellent to each other and party on, dudes! That is all...

URICH: Hey Matt, mind if we talk about you being Daredevil?

MATT: Daredevil!

URICH: I just said I wanted to talk to you.

MATT: Well, now I know that you're investigating Daredevil.

KINGPIN: Hello Matt. (cough I killed your father cough cough)

MATT: What was that?

KINGPIN: Nothing. So, how's your father? Still dead?

FOGGY: So how about money, huh? I love how you can exchange it for goods and services. Hey! Here's an idea! Why don't you exchange some of the money YOU have for our services in a legal capacity! We can then, in turn, exchange that money for goods and services, like food.

MATT: Or tight red leather! What? Don't look at me like that!

FOGGY: Of course, the government would take a certain percentage of our exchange to finance the common good, likes roads, a military, etc...

MATT: Sorry, Foggy, but we only defend the innocent.

FOGGY: C'mon! What about Man-Bull?

MATT: His name was Bull Taurus. BULL FRICKIN' TAURUS! What did you expect to happen to him?

KINGPIN: Well, I know that no one, not even Matt's dead father (who I killed, cough cough) is innocent.

MATT: Well, that's a very Judeo-Christian outlook, but in the conventional sense of the... oh wait, booty call. GREEK booty call.

SHADOW-WORLD: Enjoy it while you can, fanboys.

ELEKTRA: Hi. What aspect of my personality, intelligence, and charm do you find most lovable about me tonight?

MATT: Your dress. It shows a lot of cleavage.

ELEKTRA: Isn't it strange that a blind man is so obsessed with physical appearance? Especially when more rounded women are better to the touch, since you can't FEEL THEIR RIBS.

MATT: Yes, I can't think of anything less sexy then being able to do a headcount on a woman's rib cage. Still, I must be true to the pledge I made in college... no fat chicks.

ECLF: Alright, great party everyone! But while everyone has had fun tonight, everyone has not Wang Chunged tonight. Will the offending parties please Wang Chung before they leave?

KINGPIN: Hi, Mister Soon-To-Be-Dead, err, Natchios! Isn't it funny how I killed your wife?

ECLF: What does that have to do with anything?

KINGPIN: Nothing. Here, take this rose.

ECLF: Huh? I'm throwing this away.

KINGPIN: Whew! That was a close one.

ECLF: Are you planning to kill me?

KINGPIN: Can you ever KNOW anyone... more specifically, if they've hired a vulgarly unsubtle Irish assassin to kill someone?

ECLF: That's it, I'M LEAVING!

KINGPIN: This is YOUR PARTY!

ECLF: Yeah, well there's MORE CHIPS in the pantry!

***

ELEKTRA: Hi dad, I met this great guy. He's only interested in my physical appearance and has only known me for 48 hours, but I think he's my true love.

ECLF: That's nice dear. Now don't say goodbye, it's time to go.

ELEKTRA: What, why?

ECLF: Well, if an assassin does come for me, the last thing I want to do is wait in my own compound, surrounded by witnesses and guards, and wait to be placed in the Witness Protection Program.

***

FRANK MILLER: Ah! Bullseye has done to me exactly what this movie has done to the Elektra Saga!

BULLSEYE: Driven a sharp stick into it's brain and twisted it?

FRANK MILLER: You haven't twisted... ARGH!

BULLSEYE: Now, to help myself to the dead man's motorcycle.

TOMMY VERCETTI: I saw it first!

***

BULLSEYE: Sir, did you know how fast you were DYING!

DRIVERS: Argh!

CAR: Crash!

BULLSEYE: Ah, multiple homicides, vehicular mayhem, car crashes... can you tell this was made by FOX?

DAREDEVIL: Yo, Bullseye, you're overshadowing my performance!

BULLSEYE: Wake up. The bad guys have ALWAYS been cooler then the good. That's why bad will always win, because good is uncool!

VADER: The fact that you're stupid is just a bonus.

DAREDEVIL: Yeah? Well maybe you'll change your tune when I turn into CRAPPY CGI!

BULLSEYE: No! Now you've infected me with it! But hey, despite not coming anywhere near your holster, I've got one of your batons.

DAREDEVIL: I thought I only had one, but it separated into two.

BULLSEYE: Continuity isn't my problem. Neither is the billy club sticking out of ECLF's chest.

ECLF: No!

ELEKTRA: No! Daredevil, how could you?

BULLSEYE: I love killing people! Okay, I love you, buh-bye!

DAREDEVIL: I'm not overstaying my welcome.

ELEKTRA: A misunderstanding concerning a dead father... just like in Spider-Man...

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
I think it was a big part of the problem. I don't think many people can buy Affleck doing angst. He works best as a smartass pretty-boy or part of an essemble, but once you take him out of his environment, he sinks.

Of course, the script is really too blame. How hard is it not to make Daredevil kill people? That's the entire point of the character. What Captain America is to patriotism, Daredevil is to the justice system.

And, of course, it's just too busy. There are three definitive origin stories for Daredevil, not counting the Ultimate incarnation which was influenced by the movie and is therefore out of bounds. The original Stan Lee story is basically the Cliff's Notes. It's the framework you hang the story on, just like Green Goblin or God Loves, Man Kills. Then you expand on it. There's a lot to learn from Man Without Fear, although it's not the be-all and end-all of Daredevil origins. A very nice, dark story which is true to Frank Miller's Daredevil. Then there's Daredevil: Yellow, which highlights the little-seen light side of Daredevil.

The thinking was, I believe, that since the light side was empathized on Spider-Man (the first three-quarters are pretty cheery, aside from Uncle Ben's death. It's hard to see the downside of being Spider-Man until the end.), the best way to differenciate the two movies was to make Daredevil dark. I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with Daredevil killing people if he didn't do such light, cheerful things as the fight with Elektra. Who, by the way, was completely ruined as a character. But, since Rob Bowman is a badass, in the Elektra spinoff she's gonna be that Stick-trained, Hand-employed, ninja assassin we know and love.

As for Affleck there was nothing wrong with him except for people's preconceptions.

Daredevil has never been one of those heroes who get pigeon holed as one thing. The whole point is NOT that he's the perfect believer of the justice system. The whole point is the contrast between catholic lawyer who is slightly jaded and the violent vigilante who dresses as a devil and commits 'grey' crimes. When he started out he did cross the line. This is further show when he bends the rules of the system. He is a bit excessive in MWF but the principle is carried over to the film when the crimes that he commits are slightly more grey rather than flat out killing. The film strikes a good balance between all the different sides of Daredevil and without them it wouldn't be complete. As Frank Miller and other people who have worked on him have said, Daredevil is all about contrasts.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
Steel mesh? Wow. That would be such a bad idea for him to use that, wouldn't it? They wouldn't do that in the comics, would they? :rolleyes:

Have you seen a shark suit? They're chain mail suits which are much heavier, expensive and harder to get than leather. The type of thing he has in his comic costume is a make believe micro mesh stitched in to his costume. A big difference.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

i think Ed Norton would have made an AWESOME Daredevil
he reminds me of Matt Murdock for some reason

What you think Q. Black ?

[Quentin Black]

Ed Norton would have had to put on some muscle (like he did for American History X) and he would be great. I like him and Affleck equally for the role but overall I prefer Norton.

I also think he would make a great Iron Man with a goatee.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

yeah i agree, he would be good for Iron Man

i think Dylan Mcdermott would be good too

[Herr Logan]

Originally posted by RaginCajun
lets hope not

That's what he had in the comics.

Quentin, how is a person supposed to swim in an suit like you described?

There's nothing about a thin, bulletproof suit that's too unrealistic for a comic book movie. Many crime fighters wear such uniforms. If people want to be cowards and pretend they aren't making a movie about costumed superheroes, then they're failures.

[Zev]

Logan's right. Would you like Batman to wear full riot-gear instead of the badass thin 'armor' he's going to have in Batman Begins? And if you want to complain about underprotective costuming, look at Catwoman. Open-toed heels and a sports bra do not a good protection make.

FIVE-MINUTE SPIDER-MAN PART 1, "In Which The Comic Book Film Is Revived"

DANNY ELFMAN: Hi, I'm Danny Elfman. Don't bother to try and distinguish this score from the twenty others I did for big-budget movies this summer, you won't be able to.

TOBEY MAGUIRE: Hi, I'm Peter Parker.

DANNY ELFMAN: No, you're actor Tobey Maguire.

TOBEY MAGUIRE: No, I AM Peter Parker. Be glad the casting director of Daredevil wasn't working on this film or I'd be played by Freddie Prinze Jr.

***

SPIDER-MAN: Are you sure you want to watch my movie? You probably are, since you paid seven bucks for tickets, ten more for popcorns and drinks, and yet the projectionist STILL isn't going to center the film until fourteen minutes in.

MARY-JANE: Hi, I'm the girl-next-door type. You should call me Gwen Stacy, but if Spider-Man ended up with Gwen, the fans would kill Sam Raimi.

FANS: Don't put away your torches and pitchforks until we see the red of her hair!

PETER: Damn, I'm a science nerd.

SELINA KYLE: Just like me, Selina Kyle pre-getting-pushed-out-a-window-and-revived-by-cats. By the way, don't see CINO. I'd sue for defamation of character, but I'm fictious.

PETER: Don’t be so hard on yourself.

***

HARRY OSBORNE: Driver, could you NOT show the other kids what a cool car I come to school in?

NORMAN OSBORNE: What's the matter, Harry? First the interdimensional portal was too good for you, then the hovercraft, now the Rolls-Royce?

HARRY: I'd rather arrive in a beige Oldsmobile.

PETER: Hey, Harry.

HARRY: Hi Pete. This is my dad, he's a supervillain.

NORMAN: Aspiring supervillain. I'm hoping for a case of Science-Run-Amok any day now.

PETER: That's funny, I'm an aspiring superhero. What are the odds that we're going to become archenemies?

NORMAN: Better then the odds that Thunderbolt Ross and David Banner would work together on a field of science which Bruce Banner would then enter along with the daughter of Ross.

POOR MAN'S DON CHEADLE: Hey, the tour's starting, I kid you not. It's lead by a hot Asian woman, who as we all know make the best scientists (second only to hot blondes with frumpy hairstyles and big glasses and disreputable men with physical deformities).

***

PETER: Hey, that spider would make an awesome photo op...

FLASH: BULLY for you, chap!

OTHER BULLY: CHECK your coat at the door.

PETER: Blast, I don't have the confidence to retort! But rest assured I will register my anger on the Internet within moments!

ASIAN CHICK: Spiders rock. This one can like, totally lift stuff. And this one can see the future. I kid you not.

POOR MAN'S DON CHEADLE: Hey! That's my catchphrase!

ASIAN CHICK: I'm sorry. My power is co-opting catchphrases and with great power comes great responsibility. Anyway, we genetically-engineered several spiders together to make a super-spider. Excelsior!

MARY-JANE: Umm, why?

ASIAN CHICK: Blast, I knew we forgot something before we started!

PETER: Hey, Harry, did you know that some spiders can change colors to blend in to their environment?

HARRY: Stop hitting on me! And speaking of things I'd like to hit... Ahem, hey, MJ, did you know that some spiders can change colors to blend in to their environment?

MARY-JANE: Yes. For instance, this one is blending in with Daredevil.

HARRY: My god! It's turning deep brown! And a little green!

MARY-JANE: Amazing...

PETER: Hey, mind if I take a few pictures?

MARY-JANE: Okay, but only if it's artistic and in good taste. And if you pay me.

PETER: No, for the school paper.

MARY-JANE: Well, I should do my part to increase readership. Pose pose pose... Okay, I'm spent, goodbye.

PETER: Damn! If this were Daredevil, we'd already be madly in love by now. Why do I have to be in a GOOD movie?

SPIDER: Mmm... sweet, supple geek-flesh...

PETER: Ow! This bites! And so does that strangely-colored spider!

***

PETER: So tired... don't even want to watch Spongebob...

AUNT MAY: Peter? Are you alright?

PETER: Don't ask me that for another couple scenes. I though up a great response, but it only works if I'm Ripped Like Jesus(tm).

***

SLOCUM: Ah, a movie where the military-industrial complex isn't automatically evil.

MICHAEL MOORE: Pshaw!

NORMAN: Hi, General. Speaking of right-out-of-left-field, why do you hate me so much?

SLOCUM: It's in the script. Who's your backstabbing friend?

STROMM: I'm the Robotmaster. I produced Battlebots for three years. Anyway, the Super-Soldier formula either creates patriotic heroes who fight red-skulled baddies or psychos who do stuff like throw blondes off bridges, wear purple stocking caps, and torture Iraqi prisoners.

SLOCUM: Well, those are acceptable risks, but I'm not sure we need another U.S. agent with superpowers. I'd much prefer this Quest Industries.

QUEST: Yes! C'mon, Jonny, let's go play catch with Hadji.

JONNY: Near the tractor beam housing?

QUEST: No!

***

NORMAN: Alright, time to test my experimental formula on myself, following in the footsteps of EVERY MOVIE SCIENTIST EVER.

STROMM: Norman, I'm not sure this is a good idea. What if you turn into some kind of green monster?

NORMAN: Oh, that only happens with gamma radiation. This is completely... ARGH!

STROMM: Norman?

NORMAN: Whew! This is funnier then being possessed by Deadites!

***

PETER: Zzzz.... WHA? Hey, I've got a 'hot bod'. And I don't need glasses! It's like I was the subject of an exploitative Fox reality show for six months, only without the idiocy!

***

PETER: Okay, now to seduce Mary-Jane. Hi, MJ? You may not know this, but I really like you and I was wondering if maybe we could go on a date some time? The Drafthouse is showing some old Abott & Costello monster movies and you seem like the type who's down with that scene... Wait, I forgot to get within hearing distance. DAMN!

SCHOOL BUS: Hi Peter! Bye Peter!

PETER: Hmm, sticky fingers. Haven't had these since Baywatch was on the air. Mmmm, David Hasselhoff...

***

MARY-JANE: Hmm, puddle. Better slip in it.

PETER: Okay, so my Spider-Sense warns me of impending danger, while Daredevil can apparently detect Jennifer Garner. I wish I had a babe sense.

MARY-JANE: Slip!

PETER: Well, it's not like good women come falling out of the... hey! Hmm, it's not like blandly healthy food comes falling out of the... WOW! Well, it's not like one millon bucks comes falling out of the... OW OW OW!!!

MARY-JANE: Peter! Where'd all those male deer came from?

PETER: I'm speechless.

MARY-JANE: Except apparently to say you're speechless.

PETER: It's a text-based medium, what am I supposed to do?

MARY-JANE: ...

PETER: Great, now she's not talking to me. Sometimes I feel like slitting my... hey, someone already did! And apparently all my white blood cells have coagulated into this web-like substance. Why, I bet I could catch bad guys just like flies.

FANS: Boo! He's a Man-Spider!

PETER: So the proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a spider, plus a Spider-Sense and the ability to cling to walls makes me a Spider-Man, but add biological webbing and I'm a Man-Spider and the whole movie is ruined for you? Picky picky.

FANS: I'd glad we carry rotten vegetables to any film not first approved by Frank Miller!

PETER: Hey, I can dodge bullets, I don't think celery is a problem.

FLASH: No, that would be me.

PETER: You're celery?

FLASH: No, but you're history! Hiya!

PETER: Step back, kiss myself!

FLASH: Stop being the present!

PETER: First, mind if I knock you into next week?

FLASH: Yes, actually... ARGH!

POOR MAN'S DON CHEADLE: Ah, my food got dumped on Flash. It's funny. You think I'm being sarcastic? I kid you not.

PETER: Wow, guess I don't know my own strength. I'm glad I ate all those wheat cakes.

***

PETER: Hmm, tiny hairs on my hand... nope, not gonna touch that one. I wonder if I could climb a wall... SAY! This could be handy for literalness when a date keeps me waiting! Now I am a Spider-Man... WHEE! Now I'm the worst CGI effect in the movie. Enjoy it while you can, naysayers, from now on it's all good-lookin'.

FANS: Ah, can't nitpick anymore. C'mon, guys, time to dish some more on Chuck Austen.

OTHER FANS: Yeah? He's better then Chris Claremont!

OTHER, OTHER FANS: Guys, guys, guys... Grant Morrison kicks BOTH their candy asses!

***

PETER: Honey, I'm home! Oh wait, I forgot, I'm not married. Hmm, a note. 'Liver in the oven'? Oh my god! This is worse then the time I woke up in that bathrub full of ice!

MARY-JANE: Stupid father. I wish I had a superhero boyfriend to give him a comeuppance.

PETER: Maybe next movie. Speaking of which, are we in love yet?

MARY-JANE: Nope.

PETER: If this were Daredevil, I'd be to second base by now!

MARY-JANE: If this were Daredevil, I'D be the one headlining the sequel instead of you and some CGI tentacles.

PETER: Exceptionally WELL-ANIMATED tentacles! Attached to a GOOD VILLAIN!

***

PETER: Now, to train. It's the, eye of the tiger, it's the will of the fight...

DOC: You can do it, Little Mac! Just keep running past the Statue of Liberty in a pink jogging suit!

PETER: Pink?

DOC: I put it in with the colors.

PETER: You mean in the Laundromat, right?

DOC: Huh? Where were you going with that? Are you implying that a brother can be gay?

PETER: No, I'm... wait, are you implying they can't be?

DOC: Are we hitting on each other now or something?

PETER: Are we doing one of those Whose Line games where we can only ask each other questions?

DOC: What's Whose Line?

PETER: You ever watch Drew Carey?

DOC: The Cleveland guy with glasses?

PETER: Isn't he gay?

DOC: What is your fixation with homosexuality?

PETER: I don't know.

SPIDER-MAN: I still don't. But somehow I telepathically lost my virginity to Emma Frost during those few sentences. The next Marvel Team-Up with the X-Men is going to be a real ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^, I can tell you that much.

***

PETER: Only one way to get Mary-Jane... and that's to get a cool car! Chicks dig the car! Hmm, wrestling... Usually I'm only interested if Rowdy Roddy Piper is telling people to put on sunglasses, but perhaps... Also, notice how all my powers were SHOWN, not told to the audience by lazy voice-over narration and billy clubs being played with for no reason. As in the old show-business maxim, "show, don't tell".

DAREDEVIL: Another way your movie is better then mine! Stop finding them!

PETER: But they're like homosexual overtones in Jeepers Creepers or Powder. Once you know they're there, you can't stop finding them!

***

HARRY: Dad, someone stole the Goblin Glider and flight suit!

NORMAN: That’s horrible!

HARRY: I know! They left the mask!

***

PETER: Hey, you drive the Deathcoaster! Awesome!

UNCLE BEN: I only use it when hippies are blocking congested highways.

HIPPIE: No blood for oil, no blood for… AIYEE!

UNCLE BEN: Peter, with great power comes great responsibility.

PETER: What does great powers come with?

UNCLE BEN: Lots of Deenudity.

***

RANDY SAVAGE: How odd. A combination of fake moves like flying elbows with a UFC-like environment. By the way, SNAP IT TO A SLIM JIM! OH YEAH!

BRUCE CAMPBELL: Hey, it's me, Bruce Campbell! I'm doing a cameo!

RANDY SAVAGE: Sorry, I didn't recognize you without a chainsaw for a hand.

BRUCE CAMPBELL: Well, this one's already turning evil and I've got a Black & Dekker on backorder from Home Depot...

RANDY SAVAGE: I thought you Shopped Smart, Shopped S-Mart.

BRUCE CAMPBELL: C'mon, S-Mart isn't real. Now go lay the smackdown, IF YOU SMELL-LA-LA-LA-LELL... WHAT THE CHIN... IS COOKING!

***

PETER: I'm a wrestler.

PROMOTER: You're too small.

PETER: Hey! It's not my fault! I wanted to be a... a lumberjack!

***

BRUCE CAMPBELL: Introducing the amazing, the sensational, the astonishing SPIDER-MAN (unlimited annual)!

SPIDER-MAN: Hmm, a lame costume made from commercially-available sources and modified slightly. I AM in Daredevil!

RANDY SAVAGE: Before I slam it to a Slim Jim, I'm gonna SLAM YOU... to something other then a Slim Jim. Something... HARDER!

SPIDER-MAN: That's a nice costume. Did your husband make it for you (heh, who says I don't quip)?

RANDY SAVAGE: Stop mocking the institution of marriage!

SPIDER-MAN: How about I just mock how soundly I'm able to beat you?

RANDY SAVAGE: That'll work. Isn't it odd how I'm allowed to use steel chairs and lead pipes and you're allowed to use webbing?

MIC FOLEY: I'll allow it. Have a nice day!

***

PROMOTER: Kid, I know I can't give you all I promised, but I employ BRUCE CAMPBELL. Do you employ anyone who worked on Bubba Ho-Tep? I think not.

PETER: I think you're just cheating me out of my money. If only I had signed a contract!

PROMOTER: You did. As the Human Spider. But you're Spider-Man.

PETER: Damn! He's got me dead to rights!

BURGLAR: My last name is Papajohn. I deliver... a pistol-whipping! And you'd better calculate your tip to 1100%!

PROMOTER: That's a bit of an arbitrary... OW!

PETER: It's said never to let an opportunity pass you by. But this is an opportunity for revenge.

DAREDEVIL: I'll say. I'd have tracked the promoter down, hunted him into a subway tunnel, and kill him in 'self defense'.

PROMOTER: Isn't it nice how your origin has been updated, so that even though you did the right thing, the audience still sympathizes with you?

PETER: Yes... sleazeball. And turnabout is foreplay. Fair play. Sorry, I was thinking of Mary-Jane.

PROMOTER: Sure. I don't think I want you wrestling anymore.

PETER: Fine! Next time you have a big meet, count me out. Big GATHERING, big GATHERING...

***

PETER: Uncle Ben? Uncle Ben!

UNCLE BEN: Peter… Grand Theft Auto…

PETER: Yes, it was a pretty cool game, but what does that have to do with you lying here dying? And how come he traveled all the way from the sports arena to the library before carjacking someone?

UNCLE BEN: So long… and thanks for all the fish.

PETER: NOOOO!!! If only I could web-sling around the world and turn back time so I could save him. Oh well, I’ll do the next best thing.

***

SPIDER-MAN: Wash your windows?

CARJACKER: Ahhh!

GUN: BLAM BLAM BLAM!

SPIDER-MAN: Watch me dodge!

DAREDEVIL: So he can dodge bullets. Why didn’t you ever teach me that?

NEO: You never asked.

***

SPIDER-MAN: My name is Peter Parker. You killed my uncle. Prepare to die.

CARJACKER: But I’m really…

BURGLAR: The burglar you let get away!

SPIDER-MAN: Damn, God’s got a sick sense of humor.

GOD: You’ve been Punk’d.

SPIDER-MAN: Well, I can’t kill you because this is faithful to the comics, yet you’ve seen my face. So if you could just back up through that window.

BURGLAR: Wait, you’re not going to kill me even though I pointed a gun to your head? Not even in ‘self-defense’? What kinda weirdo are you?

SPIDER-MAN: I’m not gay, if that’s what you’re asking.

BURGLAR: Well, I’m a heterophobe. Ahhh! You like to have sex with WOMEN!

PIPE: Trip.

***

QUEST: Welcome to Quest Industries, General Porno Name, I mean, Slocum. Here’s our exo-skeletion. It’s much better then that pussy red and gold thing Stark Enterprises is offering. It’s invulnerable to all conventional weaponry.

SLOCUM: Does a armored man on a rocket glider throwing pumpkin bombs fall under conventional weaponry?

QUEST: No, he falls under Quest File O-37. Contents… ARGH!

SLOCUM: ARGH!

BUNKER: ARGH!

GREEN GOBLIN: Owned.

***

PETER: Well, I managed to graduate without the Mayor turning into a giant snake. Props.

FLASH: Mary-Jane, we’re breaking up for some reason.

MARY-JANE: Give my regards to Karen Page in Supporting Character Purgatory.

NORMAN: Harry, I thought you weren’t going to graduate.

HARRY: But you’re pleasantly surprised, right?

NORMAN: Peter, how’s it hanging, homedog?

PETER: Ain’t no thing but a G-string on a chicken wing.

NORMAN: Represent.

***

SPIDER-MAN: I’m a superhero now.

FANS: Hey, where’d you get the awesome costume?

SPIDER-MAN: Ummm… secondary mutation?

XENA: Spider-Man, huh? Sounds hot.

FANS: But… you and Gabrielle… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

KIRK: Spock… we’d better… not go… anywhere near… those… fans… in case of… Spock, where are you… going… is that your… car you’re… driving away… in?

***

JAMESON: Spider-Man, eh? More like Man-Spider! He sucks. Now reference that Ebert review of Daredevil again.

ROBBIE: You’re a lamer. And also a hoot-and-a-half, picture-perfect translation of the J. Jonah Jameson character to screen.

JAMESON: Damn straight. I’d make a joke about IBS, but no one watched the Lady Killers.

JOXER: I did.

JAMESON: Look, I only gave you this job because you were the director’s brother. So scram.

***

NORMAN: So, thanks to a certain someone terrorizing Quest Industries, we’re rocking the stock.

BOARD MEMBER: Excellent. You’ve led us into great prosperity. Now get out.

NORMAN: Professor Xavier, why?

BOARD MEMBER: I’m not Xavier, I’m a different bald guy in a wheelchair!

NORMAN: Okay. Could you put your hands to your head and say “to me, my X-Men”?

BOARD MEMBER: No!

***

MACY GRAY: Buy album.

EVANESCENSE: BUY ALBUM, BUY ALBUM, BUY ALBUM, BUY ALBUM, BUY ALBUM, BUY ALBUM…

GREEN GOBLIN: Use the Green Goblin diet plan. You’ll be thinner then Kate Moss in two microseconds.

SPIDER-MAN: Fight scene?

GREEN GOBLIN: Don’t mind if I do!

SPIDER-MAN: Good mask?

GREEN GOBLIN: Hell no!

MARY-JANE: Help me!

HARRY: I’ll save you.

DEBRIS: Clonk.

MARY-JANE: How unmasculine.

SPIDER-MAN: That’s it. If Daredevil can let criminals die, I can let some stupid little kid who isn’t smart enough to move out of the way of a giant falling balloon die.

KID: …

SPIDER-MAN: Well, if the short bus isn’t going to give him a ride, I’d better.

MOTHER: Thank you!

SPIDER-MAN: Hey, do yourself a favor and tie your tubes before you spawn anymore noobs without the flight-or-fight reflex.

GREEN GOBLIN: I’m back.

SPIDER-MAN: I still can't get over your mask. Is Willem Dafoe even under there? Because why hire him if you're going to put such an atrocious mask on him.

GREEN GOBLIN: Oh, I guess you'd prefer some sort of reptilean make-up like in the comic books.

SPIDER-MAN: Yes, I very much would.

FANS: Us too.

EVERYONE: Us too.

GREEN GOBLIN: Yeah, well, evil, so too bad.

SPIDER-MAN: Well, that’s interest- WEB TO THE FACE! A cliché, but a good cliché.

MARY-JANE: I’m falling!

SPIDER-MAN: What a coincidence, I’m saving.

MARY-JANE: You’ve got me? Who’s got you?

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
As for Affleck there was nothing wrong with him except for people's preconceptions.

http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap111.jpg
http://www.agonybooth.com/gigli/cap194.jpg

He is a bit excessive in MWF but the principle is carried over to the film when the crimes that he commits are slightly more grey rather than flat out killing.

Killing's killing, Quentin. I don't see the difference, other then in MWF he did it to SAVE SOMEONE and in DD he did it for REVENGE (for losing the court case, since apparently he would've been satisfied with the rapist paying a heavy fine if he had won the 'civil case').

Gray is accepting deals from Kingpin for the greater good. White is being a Dudley Do-Right, Superman/Captain America figure. Black is being a Punisher-like superkiller. Obviously, there's a difference between Punisher and Daredevil. So why do they both kill?

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Herr Logan
That's what he had in the comics.

Quentin, how is a person supposed to swim in an suit like you described?

There's nothing about a thin, bulletproof suit that's too unrealistic for a comic book movie. Many crime fighters wear such uniforms. If people want to be cowards and pretend they aren't making a movie about costumed superheroes, then they're failures.

They're not, they're supposed to dive and are made for researchers. It's like a scuba suit made of steel mesh.

If they had some expenisive, hard to get, thin bulletproof suit (something that isn't even avaliable for the specialist military yet)the film would still have a lot of people whining about how it's not realistic for a blind lawyer with a limited budget to be getting his hands on it. Either way the film can't win with you guys.

[Bapman]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
Well, if someone says that something is unfaithful because this character was being inconspicous when his original comic counterpart was even more inconspicous, it says something about the speaker.

Look... ADMIT it... you just won't accept the fact that DD is a pile of TURD just 'cause you love that movie.
Sure I have the same problem with HULK.
BUT the difference is... HULK wasn't stupid... HULK was just boring.
DD on the other hand... wasn't boring oh no...
It wasn't boring at all...
It was a just an entertaining pile of turd... that people affectionately call... "CRAP"
I'd prefer to say it sucked... but I guess that's going too low.

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
Killing's killing, Quentin. I don't see the difference, other then in MWF he did it to SAVE SOMEONE and in DD he did it for REVENGE (for losing the court case, since apparently he would've been satisfied with the rapist paying a heavy fine if he had won the 'civil case').

Gray is accepting deals from Kingpin for the greater good. White is being a Dudley Do-Right, Superman/Captain America figure. Black is being a Punisher-like superkiller. Obviously, there's a difference between Punisher and Daredevil. So why do they both kill?

In MWF he killed for revenge, out of anger and to save someone.

Do you even have any idea of what you are talking about? Someone black is someone sane who has had a priveliged correct upbringing yet commits murder for no other reason than he wishes to. Both Punisher and Daredevil commit grey crimes. The punisher swings towards the dark side of the scale with outright killing of all criminals he thinks do not deserve to continue living. Daredevil swings towards the centre with violence and assault on criminals. The only reason Daredevil isn't like Punisher is because when he started he came very close to becoming like him and it is the early experiences of extreme violence and homicide which made him understand what makes a good guy or bad guy. Even after his experiences Daredevil often comes close to crossing the line and is only that experience that stops him every time. They both commit grey crimes and both believe that the ends justifies the means, just on different scales. This is the reason why I prefer the darker Marvel Knight type characters to people like Superman or Captain America.

BTW, great pictures of Affleck after he did DD, really prove your case. We all know that good actors never take bad roles since bad roles physically change any good performances an actor has done. :rolleyes:

[Bapman]

"ZEV".................................. why do you talk ???
I mean......... is it really necessary for you to say something ???

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Bapman
Look... ADMIT it... you just won't accept the fact that DD is a pile of TURD just 'cause you love that movie.
Sure I have the same problem with HULK.
BUT the difference is... HULK wasn't stupid... HULK was just boring.
DD on the other hand... wasn't boring oh no...
It wasn't boring at all...
It was a just an entertaining pile of turd... that people affectionately say... "CRAP"
I'd prefer to say it sucked... but I guess that's going too low.

I don't care if you don't like it simply because of your own personal tastes but when you troll and say something is bad because it unfaithful...when it is the most faithful film according to most, including a lot of people who didn't like the film, then something isn't right. Trolling and nitpicking problems which other comic movies have, but often worse, is equally as irritating.

Oh yes, Hulk wasn't stupid. I mean badly animated giant monster poodles who explode in puffs of green mist when hit aren't stupid. Neither is your dad, who fights you by turning in to a rock monster, a water monster and then a giant green talking bubble, stupid, I'd never dream of calling that stupid. Neither is Josh Lucas stopping mid explosion to be outlined in white and spinning off screen, Batman TV series style, stupid. :rolleyes: I would continue but I think you get the point.

[Nightwing: Endgame]

gotta agree w/Black on that one...

[Zev]

Hulk was incredibly stupid. Splitscreens went out of fashion in the sixties and it was a GOOD THING. Plus, two major fight scenes were set in the dark (blurry as hell in theaters, I remember that much), Nick Nolte was a tool, and basically we didn't get enough Hulk. Everyone's come to see him throwing tanks and stuff, not resolving relationship issues with Jennifer Connolly and his estranged father (who delivers pointless anti-military lectures for no reason). I especially like how the first time he 'Hulks out', he does it for NO REASON!

I don't know why Daredevil's costume has to be bulletproof, it just has to be strong enough to protect from more common weapons like fists, broken bottles, switchblades, etc. I've referred you to a type of Kevlar that does that, yet you balk at it. Maybe he has a little money left over after buying the sensory deprivation tank, the secret hideout, painkillers, etc.

Another thing about Daredevil... the characters are static. Lets review the principal characters.

Matt Murdock: Becomes a vigilante of the non-killing variety (which he should have started out as, but I digress).

Elektra: Anyone's guess. I guess now she's a murderous assassin or she's seen the folly of her ways or... something.

Foggy: No change.

Bullseye: No change.

Kingpin: Now knows Daredevil's secret identity, otherwise no change.

Now, take Spider-Man for instance...

Peter Parker: Becomes a man, accepts that with great powers comes great responsibility. Refuses MJ's affections because he loves her too much to put her in danger.

Harry Osborne: Now hates Spider-Man and is in charge of Oscorp.

Mary-Jane: Falls in love with Peter Parker.

That's not counting Norman Osborne, who goes from a self-made man and trying father to complete psycho.

Also, since you won't accept Gigli, I'll try a different tack.

http://www.agonybooth.com/armageddon/aj_bra.jpg
http://www.agonybooth.com/armageddon/aj_shot.jpg

Armageddon, ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^es. As I've already said, the other people, Steve Buscemi, Bruce Willis, Billy Bob Thornton, etc, they were slumming for paychecks. You know Bruce Willis can do better because we saw him in The Sixth Sense and Die Hard. What's Ben Affleck's magnum opus? A Body to Die for: The Aaron Henry Story? Outside of Kevin Smith movies, he's about as useless as pantyhose on a snake.

And that's pretty useless.

Need I bring up that in Spider-Man, we SEE what his powers are. He never turns to the audience and says "Now I can climb walls because of these tiny hairs because of that bite I received from the genetically-enhanced spider. Also, I can shoot web and jump really high and have super-strength." Daredevil both shows his powers, then spells it out for the audience in (gag!) voiceover narration. This is the kind of thing that should never make it past a first draft.

And I was referring to Daredevil's going to save the girl. Outside of that, we have one accidental death and the Fixer, which is disputable (how many people have voted that wasn't murder? Over twenty? To how many? Three?).

[Quentin Black]

Originally posted by Zev
I don't know why Daredevil's costume has to be bulletproof, it just has to be strong enough to protect from more common weapons like fists, broken bottles, switchblades, etc. I've referred you to a type of Kevlar that does that, yet you balk at it. Maybe he has a little money left over after buying the sensory deprivation tank, the secret hideout, painkillers, etc.

Another thing about Daredevil... the characters are static. Lets review the principal characters.

Matt Murdock: Becomes a vigilante of the non-killing variety (which he should have started out as, but I digress).

Elektra: Anyone's guess. I guess now she's a murderous assassin or she's seen the folly of her ways or... something.

Foggy: No change.

Bullseye: No change.

Kingpin: Now knows Daredevil's secret identity, otherwise no change.

Now, take Spider-Man for instance...

Peter Parker: Becomes a man, accepts that with great powers comes great responsibility. Refuses MJ's affections because he loves her too much to put her in danger.

Harry Osborne: Now hates Spider-Man and is in charge of Oscorp.

Mary-Jane: Falls in love with Peter Parker.

That's not counting Norman Osborne, who goes from a self-made man and trying father to complete psycho.

Also, since you won't accept Gigli, I'll try a different tack.

http://www.agonybooth.com/armageddon/aj_bra.jpg
http://www.agonybooth.com/armageddon/aj_shot.jpg

Armageddon, ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^es. As I've already said, the other people, Steve Buscemi, Bruce Willis, Billy Bob Thornton, etc, they were slumming for paychecks. You know Bruce Willis can do better because we saw him in The Sixth Sense and Die Hard. What's Ben Affleck's magnum opus? A Body to Die for: The Aaron Henry Story? Outside of Kevin Smith movies, he's about as useless as pantyhose on a snake.

And that's pretty useless.

Need I bring up that in Spider-Man, we SEE what his powers are. He never turns to the audience and says "Now I can climb walls because of these tiny hairs because of that bite I received from the genetically-enhanced spider. Also, I can shoot web and jump really high and have super-strength." Daredevil both shows his powers, then spells it out for the audience in (gag!) voiceover narration. This is the kind of thing that should never make it past a first draft.

And I was referring to Daredevil's going to save the girl. Outside of that, we have one accidental death and the Fixer, which is disputable (how many people have voted that wasn't murder? Over twenty? To how many? Three?).

A custom made suit made of modified kevlar would cost more than the tank and the modified motorcycle suit together, not to mention would be far harder to obtain.

The characters are about as static as the characters in Spiderman, Blade and Xmen if you looked in to them properly

Matt Murdock: Falls in love, changes his methods and realises in Elektra that revenge is not an answer and ultimately finds finds some inner peace.

Elektra: Falls in love but rejects it and begins her downwards spiral.

Kingpin: Finds out who Daredevil is. There is a momentary swap of power, something that he hasn't experienced before and a perfect beginning to their long rocky relationship.

Bullseye: Has meet the one person who makes him insecure and he despises him for that.

Foggy: Gets closer to Matt as friends instead of business partners.

Ben has done some great performances in Changing Lanes, Dogma, Good Will Hunting, Daredevil and Chasing Amy. He choses a lot of commercial and poorly done roles but it doesn't detract from the moments where he does pull his finger out and shine. Armageddon had plenty of good actors and just shows the quality of a movie or a performance does not just depend on the actor.

Wow, you're comparing showing how he climbs walls or spins web, very physical powers, to a whole new way of sensing things that previously had not been shown on film before, much more technical with much more detail to explain. How is a non comic fan supposed to come to the conclusion that he has 'radar' just from seeing shadow world, something that can be interpreted in many more ways than say...little hairs on his finger that grip on to things. They gave a small explanation as to why his strength and balance had been enhanced yet people still had trouble figuring it out...and yet you complain that it was too obvious. First it's not obvious enough...then it's too obvious... One could say the samething about Spiderman explaining what spiders can do, despite the fact that nearly everyone in the world already knows.

Fixer is murder, by LAW and opinion doesn't change that. Along with all the maimed body guards (some of which will never walk again), the dead innocent that he killed by accident, the punks with the necks snapped because they happened to rob the wrong blind guy, the henchmen who were blown apart (despite being incapacitated) and all the other beaten and maimed bodyguards. The only murder he commited to save a girl was Lars's death.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Quentin Black
A custom made suit made of modified kevlar would cost more than the tank and the modified motorcycle suit together, not to mention would be far harder to obtain.

The characters are about as static as the characters in Spiderman, Blade and Xmen if you looked in to them properly

Matt Murdock: Falls in love, changes his methods and realises in Elektra that revenge is not an answer and ultimately finds finds some inner peace.

So, if there was a sequel, Matt would be acting the way he SHOULD HAVE BEEN in the first movie?

Elektra: Falls in love but rejects it and begins her downwards spiral.

And now in Elektra she's going to be a... what?

Kingpin: Finds out who Daredevil is. There is a momentary swap of power, something that he hasn't experienced before and a perfect beginning to their long rocky relationship.

Momentary swap of power? C'mon, you're just BSing now. The character doesn't change at all. We don't learn anything about him.

Bullseye: Has meet the one person who makes him insecure and he despises him for that.

Umm, that's not character change.

Foggy: Gets closer to Matt as friends instead of business partners.

Oh, give me a break, they DO NOT.

Ben has done some great performances in Changing Lanes, Dogma, Good Will Hunting, Daredevil and Chasing Amy. He choses a lot of commercial and poorly done roles but it doesn't detract from the moments where he does pull his finger out and shine. Armageddon had plenty of good actors and just shows the quality of a movie or a performance does not just depend on the actor.

Wow, you're comparing showing how he climbs walls or spins web, very physical powers, to a whole new way of sensing things that previously had not been shown on film before, much more technical with much more detail to explain. How is a non comic fan supposed to come to the conclusion that he has 'radar' just from seeing shadow world, something that can be interpreted in many more ways than say...little hairs on his finger that grip on to things. They gave a small explanation as to why his strength and balance had been enhanced yet people still had trouble figuring it out...and yet you complain that it was too obvious. First it's not obvious enough...then it's too obvious... One could say the samething about Spiderman explaining what spiders can do, despite the fact that nearly everyone in the world already knows.

I think we get the point of the radar from the first Shadow-world segments. Even you could see that his hearing was amplified so that he could 'see' sounds.

Fixer is murder, by LAW and opinion doesn't change that. Along with all the maimed body guards (some of which will never walk again), the dead innocent that he killed by accident, the punks with the necks snapped because they happened to rob the wrong blind guy, the henchmen who were blown apart (despite being incapacitated) and all the other beaten and maimed bodyguards. The only murder he commited to save a girl was Lars's death.

So now you're admitting that Daredevil killed for little reason in MWF. I like how in this supposedly-canon origin, he kills 'when the situation calls for it', yet never kills again in the ongoing series. Either way, you're making my point for me.

[Quentin Black]

If there is a sequel he wouldn't kill, but I would be surprised if he came close. Assuming it continues to parallel the comics.

We get to find out in Elektra, duh!

Momentary swap of power. All the way through Kingpin is in control, he has it all planned out and he is overly confident. Then there is a swap in power when DD is the one in control and Kingpin is on the floor. He'll recover, he always does, but it is the first time in a long time he has ever experienced failure and like in the comics it will (if the do the sequels right) spawn their rocky relationship.

Bullseye meeting new a new adversary and hating them as a result of extreme pride is about as much change as Harry hating Spiderman and owning Oscorp.

Actually, they do and is was shown, with the intention of the makers as said in the commentary, by the fact that at the beginning their attire around each other at the beginning and end is completely different.

We get the idea he can sense objects with sound but not the technical sides of it. No comic fan would even really understand what it is called and how it works without the voiceover let alone all the other details like touch, strength and balance.

The whole point of this TPB is to show exactly why he has never killed and refuses to cross the line. He has no reason not to without it. He has a poor life in a poor area, abandoned by his mother, an on and off relationship with an often drunk father abused by every other kid he knows and punished by fate for the only heroic thing he has ever done. This TPB shows the experience he had that has caused him to not cross the line in his future life and is a very important part of Matt's character. The fact that you call yourself a DD fan is an insult.

[Quentin Black]

Having watched parts of the film again I have heard the parts of the Kingpin song when they sing 'dirty dog'. This is dissapointing but considering that neither me nor my friends never actually heard the words on many repeat viewings and it required me to listen out for them I hasn't really detracted from the film or the main part of the song.

[Herr Logan]

Just to show that I don't see this as a popularity contest, since Quentin's a jerk and the Hype master of satire over here is my future husband (if we ever end up in prison together... :gg:), here's my two cents for the day:

Zev, I disagree with your assessment of the Hulk's style of editing. Everything else you said about it (that I remember) is correct. Also, I think you give the Spider-Man movie too much credit for being faithful to the comic. THe only things they got perfectly were the Spider-Man costume and Jolly Jonah Jameson. Some things were in the realm of "changed, but I like it", and others were extremely weak and complete failures, like Peter's personality (and physiology, God damn it! I told you not to bring up those accursed gland-shooters again... don't make me remember! :mad: ), MJ's character (I know you wanted Gwen, but we all know Betty should have come first, as well as Doc Ock, since those two have history and did come first), Peter's secret identity, and other crimes against Spider-Man.

More importantly, Quentin, you may have your head up your ass about "Daredevil" most of the time, but you make some very good points regarding changes in the characters. These changes mean next to nothing, since the characters were handled poorly, hurriedly, and the plot sucked. If this had been a good movie, the bare bones of the changes in the lives of Electra, DD & Kingpin, and Bullseye would make for good storytelling.
Also, your are right about Daredevil's powers being somewhat harder to portray in-depth than most of Spider-Man's abilities (given the blasphemous spider-barbs on the hands). I disagree with Zev's view of voice-overs. I think if done right, they could be an asset, but that would require actual writing talent.

Quentin, not only does thin, bulletproof material exist in real life, but now they're talking Liquid Armor (abouthttp://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,usa3_042104.00.html?ESRC=dod.nl) now. It's not unrealistic for this genre.