John Byrne's Superman SUCKS!

[sithgoblin]

I just picked up Byrne's Superman Restart.

I'll say one thing in Byrne's favour - I really like the way he draws Superman. Perfect face, perfect build and perfect costume. But that's as far as it goes.

The dialogue is utter s**t. It is extremely corny and very forced.

The rest of the art isn't too great either. A lot of the people who don't like Birgthright say that it sucks because it is 'dated' to 2004. Well news flash, that s**t Lois wears is PURE 80s, and it dates Bryne's Superman as much as Lex using a mobile phone dates Birthright!!

I also hate they way they do Clark, with his hair all slicked back. He's way too confident, and he just looks bad. Jimmy is a joke. When I first saw him I thought he was a bloody leprechaun!!

:mad:

[Superboy]

Are you going to get MAN OF STEEL Vol. 2? I don't think Byrne wrote any of it, just drew it all. I have most of the issues that are in it at home and I liked them a lot (of course, I also liked MAN OF STEEL....of course, it's also been a while since I read it).

[The Sage]

I liked Volume One, personally, and the backstory for Krypton.

[Lackey]

Originally posted by sithgoblin
I just picked up Byrne's Superman Restart.

I'll say one thing in Byrne's favour - I really like the way he draws Superman. Perfect face, perfect build and perfect costume. But that's as far as it goes.

The dialogue is utter s**t. It is extremely corny and very forced.

The rest of the art isn't too great either. A lot of the people who don't like Birgthright say that it sucks because it is 'dated' to 2004. Well news flash, that s**t Lois wears is PURE 80s, and it dates Bryne's Superman as much as Lex using a mobile phone dates Birthright!!

I also hate they way they do Clark, with his hair all slicked back. He's way too confident, and he just looks bad. Jimmy is a joke. When I first saw him I thought he was a bloody leprechaun!!

:mad:


good man :up: ;)

[ahw]

Originally posted by sithgoblin
I just picked up Byrne's Superman Restart.

I'll say one thing in Byrne's favour - I really like the way he draws Superman. Perfect face, perfect build and perfect costume. But that's as far as it goes.

The dialogue is utter s**t. It is extremely corny and very forced.

The rest of the art isn't too great either. A lot of the people who don't like Birgthright say that it sucks because it is 'dated' to 2004. Well news flash, that s**t Lois wears is PURE 80s, and it dates Bryne's Superman as much as Lex using a mobile phone dates Birthright!!

I also hate they way they do Clark, with his hair all slicked back. He's way too confident, and he just looks bad. Jimmy is a joke. When I first saw him I thought he was a bloody leprechaun!!

:mad:

Byrne’s Lois and Supes dynamic was great. I liked the part where Lois was all awe struck and stammering then yelled "come back " and Supes does, answering with a grin and a simple "yes" it was hilarious. I liked Supes confidence in his outings and his humour, reminded me of the movie a little bit.

A little correction is in order though, "the Birthright haters" don't complain that the work shows contemporary awareness, they complain that it does while being established as the new origin. Superman's current comic status still has him debuted during the 80, if Birthright is chosen as the new origin with cell phones and all a contradiction is creates, that’s why some are complaining ... that and because Birthright is a really "average" story. I don't like it myself, The only thing I like are the look of Krypton and the first issue with the African politician. The rest has been “so-so” so far. I also don't like Lex, I mean make him quite brilliant, that's fine but the stuff Waid makes him do is just a little too far out for my taste.

[sithgoblin]

Originally posted by Superboy
Are you going to get MAN OF STEEL Vol. 2? I don't think Byrne wrote any of it, just drew it all. I have most of the issues that are in it at home and I liked them a lot (of course, I also liked MAN OF STEEL....of course, it's also been a while since I read it). Reread Man of Steel. Mabye if I hadn't read Birthright first, it wouldn't have been so jarring. I'll check out Vol.2 if Byrne didn't write it. I do like his art.

[sithgoblin]

Originally posted by ahw
Superman's current comic status still has him debuted during the 80 Not anymore. :p

[The Sage]

I'm actually not enjoying Birthright that much anymore. The last issue, I read and felt as if something was missing from it. Maybe it's just me.

[ahw]

Originally posted by sithgoblin
Not anymore. :p

Sadly yes, everything that has occured past "Man of steel" is still in power, Superman debuted around the 80's together with Batman and the other modern age heroes. That's the point, DC is inconsistent with their revamp, just like they were back when Crisis occured.

[ahw]

Originally posted by sage1047
I'm actually not enjoying Birthright that much anymore. The last issue, I read and felt as if something was missing from it. Maybe it's just me.

It's not just you, Birthright is "average" writting, only a few things really shine but most of the stuff is too "tried and true".

[Nightcrawler17]

I loke both Man of Steel and Birthright, but I guess to each his own.

[bcsawyer]

I've got a nostalgic kick for Byrne's Superman stories, they work for me. I think he drew a great and dynamic Superman. Yeah maybe some of the dialogue is stiff and it's a little dated but it's almost twenty years old after all.

:eek:

S**T! I'm OLD!!

[krisboyuk]

I agree with Sith. I reread MOS Vol.1 and 2 a couple of week ago and they sucked. I used to think there were great but now...ugh.

[Sandman138]

Originally posted by sithgoblin
I just picked up Byrne's Superman Restart.

I'll say one thing in Byrne's favour - I really like the way he draws Superman. Perfect face, perfect build and perfect costume. But that's as far as it goes.

The dialogue is utter s**t. It is extremely corny and very forced.

The rest of the art isn't too great either. A lot of the people who don't like Birgthright say that it sucks because it is 'dated' to 2004. Well news flash, that s**t Lois wears is PURE 80s, and it dates Bryne's Superman as much as Lex using a mobile phone dates Birthright!!

I also hate they way they do Clark, with his hair all slicked back. He's way too confident, and he just looks bad. Jimmy is a joke. When I first saw him I thought he was a bloody leprechaun!!

:mad:

AMEN!

God, Byrne is a hack. His interpertation of Superman is the worst of any with the exception of Peters. His idea that Superman should view his powers as a curse is so cliche it is vomit inducing. His Superman tries so hard to be serious that he ends up seeming stupid. Give me Eliot S. Maggin any day of the week over this crap. Or O'Neil's Sandman Superman saga, that is what Superman is all about. The only worthwhile thing Byrne did was turn Luthor into a buisness man rather than another version of the Ultra-Humanite. But even then, he took away Luthor's genious and his love for the great minds and replaced it with ruthless villian jerk 101. Byrne must burn!!!:mad:

[The Sage]

I liked Byrne's Superman. I liked the cold-hearted Krypton, made them distinct from humans. I liked the idea that Ma Kent sewed the costume from earth cloth personally. Birthright's origin of the costume is cool as well.

[Screenscribe]

It is unfair to say that something is "dated". Of course it is. Writing styles change, so do artists dynamcis. It's like watching a movie from the 70's. Star wars was a great film. But have any of you even seen a buster brown hair cut? (10 points to anyone born after 1980 who knows who Buster Brown is)

And as for thigns being cliche? well it is NOW. nearly 20 years later. It wasn't THEN. When most of you were still gleams in your mama's eye. It was innovative and fresh. We hadn't seen that in Superman before.

You have to look at the STORY. John Byrn's story is far superior to what Birth Right is. the "S" is not a Krypton Symbol. Lex Luthor is 20 years older than Clark. That's right folks. He knew Perry white when they were kids. Birth Right is nothing but a cheap tactic to cash in on the popularity of the Smallville TV show. I love the show. some of the best writing on TV right now. soem good buddies work on that show. But it should be seperate. We went through the same things when Lois and Clark was on the air. And all that is now forgotten. That too may be before your time.

Here's something to ponder. If Lex and Clark knew each other in Smallville. How is the secret kept? All my classmates from HS look the same after 15 years. We know that Clark didn't ge fat or go bald. So he looks the same. And no one knows...

Focus on the story that is there. I find Birth Right to be weak. OVERLY cliche and predictable. Nothing fresh that hasn't already been told on Smallville (of major importance anyway). There is no problem with retooling Superman's origin. But this is what the 4th or 5th time in a year? Sorry. Byrne did the best job thus far.

[Sandman138]

Originally posted by Screenscribe
It is unfair to say that something is "dated". Of course it is. Writing styles change, so do artists dynamcis. It's like watching a movie from the 70's. Star wars was a great film. But have any of you even seen a buster brown hair cut? (10 points to anyone born after 1980 who knows who Buster Brown is)

And as for thigns being cliche? well it is NOW. nearly 20 years later. It wasn't THEN. When most of you were still gleams in your mama's eye. It was innovative and fresh. We hadn't seen that in Superman before.

You have to look at the STORY. John Byrn's story is far superior to what Birth Right is. the "S" is not a Krypton Symbol. Lex Luthor is 20 years older than Clark. That's right folks. He knew Perry white when they were kids. Birth Right is nothing but a cheap tactic to cash in on the popularity of the Smallville TV show. I love the show. some of the best writing on TV right now. soem good buddies work on that show. But it should be seperate. We went through the same things when Lois and Clark was on the air. And all that is now forgotten. That too may be before your time.

Here's something to ponder. If Lex and Clark knew each other in Smallville. How is the secret kept? All my classmates from HS look the same after 15 years. We know that Clark didn't ge fat or go bald. So he looks the same. And no one knows...

Focus on the story that is there. I find Birth Right to be weak. OVERLY cliche and predictable. Nothing fresh that hasn't already been told on Smallville (of major importance anyway). There is no problem with retooling Superman's origin. But this is what the 4th or 5th time in a year? Sorry. Byrne did the best job thus far.

While I agree that Le knowing Clark when they were young is a bad idea, Byrne didn't fix things the way you make it out to be, he thought that Superman wasn't dark enough... I have to ask myself exactly why he thought Superman should be dark. Superman isn't without his own moral doubts at times, but he certianly isn't the unlikely hero Byrne made him. I hate that the S came from Earth, it takes away one of Superman's best characteristics, that he was born as Superman and that Clark Kent is his disguise. Neil Adam's Superman Sandman Saga was ten thousand times better.

[Goongala]

its okay

[Ben Urich]

I forced myself to read Vol. 1 and it was quite painful :confused:
I couldn't even finish Vol. 2 :(
I guess they must have been good during their time, but they're just silly now.
Like his Characterization of Batman. "I admit it's a bit Machiavellian.."
Wtf? :confused:

[ahw]

Originally posted by Ben Urich
I forced myself to read Vol. 1 and it was quite painful :confused:
I couldn't even finish Vol. 2 :(
I guess they must have been good during their time, but they're just silly now.
Like his Characterization of Batman. "I admit it's a bit Machiavellian.."
Wtf? :confused:

What's so bad about that part? I think it had a nice dry sense of humor.

[topdog1]

Originally posted by sage1047
I liked Byrne's Superman. I liked the cold-hearted Krypton, made them distinct from humans. I liked the idea that Ma Kent sewed the costume from earth cloth personally.

Bryne's Superman is THE best thing that DC has done in the past 25 years. Nuff Said!

[SuperDaniel]

Let's see:

-Better Krypton and better design

-Better Lex Luthor. I prefer Byrne's Luthor. Murdered the parents to get the money and all.

-Better first appearence. Superman first appearence should be a HUGE event like stopping a Space Bus from crashing in the middle of metropolis. I defnitely prefer Man of steel's Superman's first appearence than Birthright.

-Better Superman character. Don't like the bumbling kent. I prefer the "Superman is what i do and Clark is who i am" line.

So, in my oppinion Byrne's Man of Steel is much better than birthright.

[Ben Urich]

Originally posted by ahw
What's so bad about that part? I think it had a nice dry sense of humor.

It wasn't funny, it was sad, because it was so stupid.
Batman was so ridiculously out of character, and in general Byrne's Superman is an abomination that should be forgotten.

[ahw]

Originally posted by Ben Urich
It wasn't funny, it was sad, because it was so stupid.
Batman was so ridiculously out of character, and in general Byrne's Superman is an abomination that should be forgotten.

What was so out of character about it?

[sithgoblin]

Originally posted by SpiderDaniel
Let's see:

-Better Krypton and better design

-Better Lex Luthor. I prefer Byrne's Luthor. Murdered the parents to get the money and all.

-Better first appearence. Superman first appearence should be a HUGE event like stopping a Space Bus from crashing in the middle of metropolis. I defnitely prefer Man of steel's Superman's first appearence than Birthright.

-Better Superman character. Don't like the bumbling kent. I prefer the "Superman is what i do and Clark is who i am" line.

So, in my oppinion Byrne's Man of Steel is much better than birthright. And that... is why you fail...

/Yoda

[Ben Urich]

Originally posted by ahw
What was so out of character about it?

It was just... daffy sounding? :confused:
The art wasn't awful (I actually sort of liked it) but everything else was just...ick. :(

[Kryptonian]

Ah... well "back in the day" Byrne was not dated or stilted. It's not really appropriate imho to bash someone for their dated dialogue 20 years after the fact. Why not hammer the Donner films for their dialogue and dress? Because it's a classic.

The Byrne Superman has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it was the first really refreshing look at the Man of Steel in a looooooooong time. Since the Last Son of Krypton is such an iconic part of my childhood/adolescence/adulthood, I have to give the man props for his effort, even if I don't like all of it. And I love the way Byrne draws Supes!

Birthright is ok, but a bit derivative of Smallville for my tastes. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily, but I'd prefer something that stands on it's own a bit more than using existing material. But hey, it's Superman, so I'm happy people are reading it and talking about it.

Just so I go on record (albeit off topic), what is acceptable as "artistic license" in a comic will not be tolerated in a movie. Abrams' script is cr4p and must be stopped at any price.

[Screenscribe]

Byrnes take was the first breath of fresh air. Like Kryptonian said its unfair to bash it 20 years later. It wasn't that Byrne was trying to make Superman grim and gritty. He was making him REAL. With Real situations. You people have to remember that you grew up with Wolverine and the Punisher. Characters died in comics and people actually would bleed. We didn't have that. In the Supes comics we had stories with captions on the cover that read 'Great Scott!!! That giant monkey from Dimension X is turning the citizens of Metropolis into cavemen with his laser eyes!!"

Birthright is just a ploy to cash in on Smallville. Where did the cell phones come from? Those are recent. My first cell phone a few years ago was nearly a foot long!! And Isn't Lex President?? Or was until just recently. Birthright Doesn't jive. Not just the past 60 years of continuity but not even the last 2!!

[Sandman138]

Originally posted by Screenscribe
Byrnes take was the first breath of fresh air. Like Kryptonian said its unfair to bash it 20 years later. It wasn't that Byrne was trying to make Superman grim and gritty. He was making him REAL. With Real situations. You people have to remember that you grew up with Wolverine and the Punisher. Characters died in comics and people actually would bleed. We didn't have that. In the Supes comics we had stories with captions on the cover that read 'Great Scott!!! That giant monkey from Dimension X is turning the citizens of Metropolis into cavemen with his laser eyes!!"

Birthright is just a ploy to cash in on Smallville. Where did the cell phones come from? Those are recent. My first cell phone a few years ago was nearly a foot long!! And Isn't Lex President?? Or was until just recently. Birthright Doesn't jive. Not just the past 60 years of continuity but not even the last 2!!

First off, since when did hating that hack Byrne mean that one automatically loves Birthright? I dislike both, but even Birthright has decent art, I really didn't like Byrne's at all. On to your arguments....

REAL characters? REAL CHARACTERS? A self-loathing jerk who just wishes he could be a normal guy... when the hell did Superman start hanging out with Spider-Man? A poor kid from the toughest slum in the city who killed his own parents to get rich and is now a CEO who secretly runs the world... could we make him a bit more of a one sided bastard? Superman comes from a planet with people who are colder than Spock so why the hell do we care for them when they are feeling their flesh boil off of their bones? It's not like they were ever really alive. Byrne stated that he did not like the character at all when he came onto the project, and his whole "reinvention" ruined alot of fantastic characters. For instance: Lex Luthor of the Golden Age was an evil genious, a man with an intense hatred for Superman not because he was just a ruthless jerk, but because he was too proud. He saw himself as above Superman and resented the love that others showed Superman because Lex felt underapreciated. He loved Einstein more than anybody in the entire world (and in fact this formed a bond with him and Superman because it was Einstein himself who Jor-El wished to be Superman's foster parent) and would never harm a soul on the good proffesor's birthday. That was during your so called "Giant Monkey from planet X" era. Much more character development than I ever saw from Byrne.

How the hell are Wolverine or the Punisher realistic? Because they're major asses and respective holes? Because they have big guns or claws? Because they kill copious amounts of people? That makes them gritty, but hardly realistic... more like testorone feuling 80's creations of an era ruled by Reagan, Rocky, and Rambo. Superman is not a dark character. He is not a killer. He is not a dislikable person. He is the Christ figure in a world filled with too many jerks, sleazebags, bigots, zealots and self-made martyrs. He shows us what we were meant to strive for, making him such a repressed and morose guy makes it very hard for him to be that shining beacon of light. Moreover, because Krypton was such a crappy place to begin with, Byrne eliminates any kind of dramatic conflict of identity that is so prevelent in adopted children. That feeling of not really belonging in either place and thus having to make a home for yourself (one that is almost always lonely, cold, and lacking in comfort in case you never understood the metaphor for the Fortress of Solitude) is totally lost because that hack Byrne gives Superman every reason to hate his heritage and turn his back on his blood without even a moment of remorse or seconed guessing.

Byrne didn't make a real Superman... he made a THEMATIC MESS OF MELODRAMA WITH LITTLE SUBSTANCE UNDERNEATH.

[Screenscribe]

Ah sandman.... Such a tirade.....

Burne a hack?? Now, oh my yes. He hasn't had an original idea in so long. He ruined Spider-Man so much that everything had to be totally ignored.

But back in 86? No. He gave a fresh prospective. Sure it was dated "80's". But SURPRISE!!! that was when it was written.

I neve said Wolverine and Punisher were "real" characters. Simply that many readers today were born after they first showed up and don't know what comics were like.

I didnt' like Birthright for a number of reasons. Mainly because it is just a story to cash in on Smallville. Then there is the fact that it was about the 5th origin story in about 2 years.

And your overthinking of your reasonings as to why the Bryne story was so terrible strikes me as a writer who is trying to make sense of a story that they just don't get.

I have the same problem. Some stories just elude me. I can't fathom telling a story for the tellings sake. Not when there is so much continuity that must be followed.

I know most of the people (to different degrees) who wrote many of these stories. And I will tell them if I liked or disliked it. No biggee. No harm no foul. We don't have to like one or the other. But I just can't see mucking with a good thing just to make a few extra bucks. It can ruin the flow of the character. Look at the Lois and Clark fiasco. The producers were so desperate to get ratings that they decided to marry them off. The comic had to rush to do the same. It ruined the character. Lois now was reduced to a second tier supporting character that made excuses for Clark rather than an obsticle and a foil. She was a much sharper character then. She is so less defined now. Reduced to "I don't like the way Wonder Woman acts around my husband" cliches.

[Sandman138]

Originally posted by Screenscribe
Ah sandman.... Such a tirade.....

Burne a hack?? Now, oh my yes. He hasn't had an original idea in so long. He ruined Spider-Man so much that everything had to be totally ignored.

But back in 86? No. He gave a fresh prospective. Sure it was dated "80's". But SURPRISE!!! that was when it was written.

I neve said Wolverine and Punisher were "real" characters. Simply that many readers today were born after they first showed up and don't know what comics were like.

I didnt' like Birthright for a number of reasons. Mainly because it is just a story to cash in on Smallville. Then there is the fact that it was about the 5th origin story in about 2 years.

And your overthinking of your reasonings as to why the Bryne story was so terrible strikes me as a writer who is trying to make sense of a story that they just don't get.

I have the same problem. Some stories just elude me. I can't fathom telling a story for the tellings sake. Not when there is so much continuity that must be followed.

I know most of the people (to different degrees) who wrote many of these stories. And I will tell them if I liked or disliked it. No biggee. No harm no foul. We don't have to like one or the other. But I just can't see mucking with a good thing just to make a few extra bucks. It can ruin the flow of the character. Look at the Lois and Clark fiasco. The producers were so desperate to get ratings that they decided to marry them off. The comic had to rush to do the same. It ruined the character. Lois now was reduced to a second tier supporting character that made excuses for Clark rather than an obsticle and a foil. She was a much sharper character then. She is so less defined now. Reduced to "I don't like the way Wonder Woman acts around my husband" cliches.

Okay, he did some increadible stuff with She Hulk (in fact his run is a milestone in comic history IMHO)... however, his Superman story for me is POS. It isn't that I don't get it, I just think it is crap. The characters are flat and speak much more like Byrne than themselves (Batman's little socio-political monolouge is a prime example) the development is contrived and there is far too much Deus-ex Machina (ie: Luthor showing up out of nowhere to rip out Metallo's heart... wtf). I dislike Birthright because it feels way to trendy with its pop-cullture referances. It doesn't do anything to really reinvigorate the characters other than make them talk on cell phones. However, I think what it does with Lex is fantastic, not nessecaraly making him know Clark when they were younger, but for giving him a very real and poignant reason for being the way he is. He is alone in his greatness and no matter what he does, he will always be that way. My biggest problem with MOS was that there was never any real inner conflict for Superman that was real. He never really had to come to terms with himself because Byrne made it too easy for him to say "Clark Kent is who I am, Superman is what I do". That is the number one reason I hate MOS.

[Superbaty77]

Well i dont like Birthright for one simply reason. Its stupid to have Lex meeting Clark Before he becomes Superman. It was Stupid in the old Superboy comics. It was Stupid in the Smallville Show & Its Stupid in Birthright. Sure the Dialog isnt great. But at least MOS is a Straight out Origin story. Birthright just jumps all over the place. One Issue hes in Africa. Next Hes in Highschool . Overall i see Birthright as an attempt to appease Smallville fans. Witch i dont think most of them even read comics. Look if Dc wants to come up with a new Origin story. The should keep it in the 80's and dont make Lex, Clarks Classmate (Stupid) and make it a straight out Origin Story. No Jumping Please. Sure theres thing in MOS steel i didnt like. For one Jor-el sending Kal-el in some artificial womb. i Think it gave it a less emtional impact then least say the scene Superman the Movie Where Jor-el is saying goodbye. I also think Krypton being doom from there sun is a little more believable. Plus Where he gets the "S" is more believable in the movie. But all the things that i didnt like about. At least it dosnt try turn lex into Clarks classmate or try's to appease fans of a crappy show.

:supes:

[Lazlo Panaflex]

The Man Of Steel series is my favorite and Byrne's Superman is tough, buff and ready to take names (I sound like a ring announcer). I have nearly all of Byrne's run but his newer stuff doesn't compare to the 80's stuff.

[Super Kal]

I just picked up Byrne's Superman Restart.

I'll say one thing in Byrne's favour - I really like the way he draws Superman. Perfect face, perfect build and perfect costume. But that's as far as it goes.

The dialogue is utter s**t. It is extremely corny and very forced.

The rest of the art isn't too great either. A lot of the people who don't like Birgthright say that it sucks because it is 'dated' to 2004. Well news flash, that s**t Lois wears is PURE 80s, and it dates Bryne's Superman as much as Lex using a mobile phone dates Birthright!!

I also hate they way they do Clark, with his hair all slicked back. He's way too confident, and he just looks bad. Jimmy is a joke. When I first saw him I thought he was a bloody leprechaun!!

:mad:
I absolutly enjoyed, so I completely disagree with you.

[Jakomus]

Byrne's Superman is just wrong, basically. He just made him more like Spider-Man. I don't understand anyone who thinks he is a better character than pre-crisis Superman.

[The Question]

I didn't really see any Spider-Man. He wasn't an over energetic quippy nerd. He may not have seemed entirely sure of himself, but remember that MOS had Superman just starting out. He wasn't going to be oozing with confidence right of the bast, since he barely knew what he was doing at the time.

[GyLocke]

Well, the first comic I ever had in my hands is MOS. And I still love every page of it. I have no sense of Bryne destroying something, because his Superman is The Superman I've been exposed to. It's possible that the Hungarian translation that I've read it with was better than the original but I don't really feel the lameness of the dialogue. On the contrary.

I avoided comic books before then (and I was like eleven). But then reading about an ordinary man, who happens to have enough power to change the world, and become a global factor in world politics and all was just really appealing. I expected to see the bumbling moron Clark and idiot Lex of the movies, and It was such an awsome thing to realize: Superman and superheroes in general are not always goddamn jokes. That's how I started to read comic books.

I think MOS nailed Smallville Clark, the Clark-Lois relationship, and especially the Clark-Lex relationship (with Clark representing free will and all, and making him fight AGAINST the status quo and not for it).

You have an interesting sci-fi Krypton, with a believable destruction, then thrilling, yet realistic and well built up superheroics against Metallo, then some thrillerish, hopeless fight against Lex, which is more about will power, than actual power, and you have the romantic sparks with Lois.
Honestly, what's to hate that much.

From time to time I try to imagine myself in the place of MOS haters, who didn't have the same uniqe exposure to his work as I had, but it seems to me like it's an internet fad to hate on John Bryne, who is twice the fool it takes to say and do things that turns the internet against him. But I still can't see what's so horrible about MOS. It's seems like hate for the sake of hating.

And it certainly doesn't help that most MOS haters posts are like :mad: :mad: :mad: John Bryne MOS horrible! Bizarro doesn't talk backwards! Lois has a bad outdated hair! The suit is from Krypton! Kal is Superman, not Clark! Soooo 80's! Abomonation! ABOMONATION!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

(how I hate the :mad: smiley)
And please don't take it personally I'm talking about something I experienced all over the net.

[Jakomus]

I didn't really see any Spider-Man. He wasn't an over energetic quippy nerd. He may not have seemed entirely sure of himself, but remember that MOS had Superman just starting out. He wasn't going to be oozing with confidence right of the bast, since he barely knew what he was doing at the time.But post-crisis Superman is basically Clark Kent being the real man, with "real human problems" and "realistic" power levels that means he can get beaten in fights. That's Spidey's basic premise in a nutshell. Not Superman.

[The Question]

That's alot of characters in a nutshell. Not just Spidey. And I really don't remember Clark dealing with many of the real world problems that Spider-Man did very much, besides his relationship with Lois. And what's wrong with him being able to be beaten in fights? Without that, his villains are pretty much useless.

[GyLocke]

Question, you're sig.

For some reason it makes me giggle like an idiot. What the hell is that? :D

[The Question]

Zev was writing "Rent in five minutes," and eventually got off on a tangent of Angelus from Buffy the Vampire Slayer fighting Vin Diesel.

[Jakomus]

And what's wrong with him being able to be beaten in fights? Without that, his villains are pretty much useless.It's the fact that John Byrne's Man Of Steel revolves on the fact Superman can be beaten. It's what every post-crisis fan uses to praise post-crisis Superman.

[The Question]

Okay. But what's wrong with that?

[Agentdemon]

Byrne's superman had some good things but Birthright is much better. The funny thing is, when I first read his MOS, I loved it. Then I realized it wasn't so much the story and characters but the incredible art.

[Spike_x1]

The Man Of Steel series is my favorite and Byrne's Superman is tough, buff and ready to take names (I sound like a ring announcer). I have nearly all of Byrne's run but his newer stuff doesn't compare to the 80's stuff.Agreed with everything here /\ :up:

[GNR]

The only thing that bugged me about Birthright was the flashbacks which were too long IMO.Other than that,the ending was great and I liked the characterization.

I'd give it an 8/10.

[Kevin Roegele]

http://www.lacoctelera.com/myfiles/snakesolido/superman%20byrne.jpg

This sucks? Yer jokin', ain't ya?

[Spike_x1]

As far as I'm concerned, Byrne is responsible for putting the Man in Superman.

Yes, before him, a few writers had pulled that off (occasionally an Alan Moore, a young Jerry Siegel, or a Marv Wolfman would come along), but it was Byrne who really standardized it.

[Kevin Roegele]

As far as I'm concerned, Byrne is responsible for putting the Man in Superman.

Yes, before him, a few writers had pulled that off (occasionally an Alan Moore, a young Jerry Siegel, or a Marv Wolfman would come along), but it was Byrne who really standardized it.

Yeah, Byrne's Superman is the opposite of Singer's. The former is very firmly a man, as much a human as possible. Whereas Singr's is an almost all-powerful saviour from above.

[DavidTyler]

While I agree that Le knowing Clark when they were young is a bad idea, Byrne didn't fix things the way you make it out to be, he thought that Superman wasn't dark enough... I have to ask myself exactly why he thought Superman should be dark. Superman isn't without his own moral doubts at times, but he certianly isn't the unlikely hero Byrne made him. I hate that the S came from Earth, it takes away one of Superman's best characteristics, that he was born as Superman and that Clark Kent is his disguise. Neil Adam's Superman Sandman Saga was ten thousand times better.


Julian, Neil had nothing to do with the Superman Sandman saga other then drawing the cover for 'Kryptonite No More' which began it. I have every issue. They were drawn by Swanderson (and if you get that reference you win a gold star) and written by a few writers - O'Neil being one of them.

As to Byrne trying to make Superman a 'darker' character ... where did you get that idea? Byrne even tried to make Batman lighter. He's not a fan of dark heroes. The Demon was a departure for him.

What Byrne did in essence was to take the myth and make it more tangible. Kal-el's journey was given a semi-realistic revamp. Gone was the image of an infant being bounced around inside the cockpit of a rocket while starving and dehydrating. Baby Kal was now in a suragate womb which took care of all his needs until being birthed on Earth. It didn't make him any less an alien but it did make his arrival more believable. Incidentally, Bryne originally wanted to have a pregnant Lara make the journey. The powers that be at DC nixed the idea. If you don't like what he did, part of the blame lies squarely with them.

Because of this, Byrne was given the opportunity to give Krypton a lot more depth. No longer was Krypton this myopically ideal place that was about as interesting as cardboard. It was now a concept that rivalled 'Logan's Run' as a science fiction concept. A society so advanced that it had become sterile and repressive. Jor-el didn't just save his son from a dying planet but from a dying civilization as well.

[The Question]

Julian, Neil had nothing to do with the Superman Sandman saga other then drawing the cover for 'Kryptonite No More' which began it. I have every issue. They were drawn by Swanderson (and if you get that reference you win a gold star) and written by a few writers - O'Neil being one of them.



As to Byrne trying to make Superman a 'darker' character ... where did you get that idea? Byrne even tried to make Batman lighter. He's not a fan of dark heroes. The Demon was a departure for him.



What Byrne did in essence was to take the myth and make it more tangible. Kal-el's journey was given a semi-realistic revamp. Gone was the image of an infant being bounced around inside the cockpit of a rocket while starving and dehydrating. Baby Kal was now in a suragate womb which took care of all his needs until being birthed on Earth. It didn't make him any less an alien but it did make his arrival more believable. Incidentally, Bryne originally wanted to have a pregnant Lara make the journey. The powers that be at DC nixed the idea. If you don't like what he did, part of the blame lies squarely with them.



Because of this, Byrne was given the opportunity to give Krypton a lot more depth. No longer was Krypton this myopically ideal place that was about as interesting as cardboard. It was now a concept that rivalled 'Logan's Run' as a science fiction concept. A society so advanced that it had become sterile and repressive. Jor-el didn't just save his son from a dying planet but from a dying civilization as well.

And, the fact that the society was so up it's own ass mad their ignorance to their impending doom make sense. Only a people who are so arrogant that they see themselves as gods would ignore the idea of a major natural disaster wiping them out without even looking at Jor-El's findings.

As for the thing about him being born Superman. That's bullcrap. He was born super, yes. But he wasn't born Superman. He couldn't have been. Heroes aren't born. They are shaped by their life experiences. He became the man he is because of his life experiences on Earth. The fact that he's super has nothing to do with it. If he had been raised on Krypton, he probably would have been a very different person. If he'd been raised by any Earth couple other than the Kents, he'd probably be a very different person. If he'd been raised alongside Lex Luthor as a child, he'd probably have ended up as his "brother's" cheif enforcer. If he'd been raised by the Wayne's, he'd probably just as psychologically damaged as Bruce and far more brutal in his methods. If he didn't have powers but had simply been raised by the Kents like a normal human, he'd be exactly the way he is now. Except he'd probably concentrait all of his efforts in helping people by exposing the truth through journalism, not fighting crime or saving lives directly. The idea that he was "born" Superman is ludicrous.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Byrne´s Man of Steel could really use and update, but, as ideas go (not all), the Byrne´s one are much better than Birthright and it´s "invasion of the Kryptonians" crap.

REAL characters? REAL CHARACTERS? A self-loathing jerk who just wishes he could be a normal guy... when the hell did Superman start hanging out with Spider-Man?
Yeah, that´s one of the bad ones, but, not totally and i understand where that idea came from.
It´s been a while since i read MoS, so i don´t remember all that much, but, every kid wants to be accepted, which, in Kal-El´s case, he wants to be normal, be one of the guys.
The thing that makes it one of the bad ideas is that, with the parents he had, to be normal would not be one thing that Kal-El misses, because he doesn´t feel any less human.

A poor kid from the toughest slum in the city who killed his own parents to get rich and is now a CEO who secretly runs the world... could we make him a bit more of a one sided bastard?
Yeah, i agree, it´s veru one sided

Superman comes from a planet with people who are colder than Spock so why the hell do we care for them when they are feeling their flesh boil off of their bones? It's not like they were ever really alive.
That, i don´t agree.
Byrne´s take on Krypton is very good (sure, needs some update)...you have to look at Krypton´s past to understand why they got to that point.

Lex Luthor of the Golden Age was an evil genious, a man with an intense hatred for Superman not because he was just a ruthless jerk, but because he was too proud. He saw himself as above Superman and resented the love that others showed Superman because Lex felt underapreciated.
:confused:
Byrne´s Luthor is not all that diferent, one can even say it´s more of an update on that character.
Why does Luthor hates Superman?
Because, before Superman arrived, he was the center of attentions in Metropolis and the world, when he arrived, he lost it, people started to look at the man in the sky.
Luthor lost his city to the only man who doesn´t want it.
Besides, he was the first man with the guts to arrest him, and Luthor can´t accept that humiliation.

He loved Einstein more than anybody in the entire world (and in fact this formed a bond with him and Superman because it was Einstein himself who Jor-El wished to be Superman's foster parent) and would never harm a soul on the good proffesor's birthday.
IMO, that´s just stupid.
Pre-crisis at it´s finest.

He is the Christ figure in a world filled with too many jerks, sleazebags, bigots, zealots and self-made martyrs. He shows us what we were meant to strive for, making him such a repressed and morose guy makes it very hard for him to be that shining beacon of light.
Please, stop with the Jesus nonsense, i can´t stand it anymore...:(
If Superman was that Christ figure, showing us what we were meant to strive, and all that, he would be Gandhi in a cape and give lectures.
Superman is an altruistic being, because that´s the way he was raised to be, and he looks at himself as someone that can make a diference.
The fact that he is an alien, in a world that accepted him, gives him the unconscious that he is, somehow in debt, and so he makes the best he can to pay that debt.

Moreover, because Krypton was such a crappy place to begin with, Byrne eliminates any kind of dramatic conflict of identity that is so prevelent in adopted children. That feeling of not really belonging in either place and thus having to make a home for yourself (one that is almost always lonely, cold, and lacking in comfort in case you never understood the metaphor for the Fortress of Solitude) is totally lost because that hack Byrne gives Superman every reason to hate his heritage and turn his back on his blood without even a moment of remorse or seconed guessing.
In Superman´s case, he was raised as human, he only knew his true heritage years later, when he was 27, that´s one the big reasons why he chosed to became Superman.
How can he have the feeling of not belonging, when he lived for 27 YEARS as a human?
If that was the case, the moment he put of the costume, say goodbye to Clark Kent, because he would be Superman forever, 24/7.
He created the Fortress to pay respect to his heritage, not to have a place to call his own.
If that was the case, he would never return to Smallville or even live in Metropolis, he would live in the Fortress, only coming out to make his good deeds.
And about the "(one that is almost always lonely, cold, and lacking in comfort in case you never understood the metaphor for the Fortress of Solitude), you are watching STM way to much, because it never was a lonely and cold place until Donner made the movie.
The original Fortress (1958) was a Batcave-like, with a laboratory, a giant steel diary in which he wrote his memoirs, communications equipment, specialized exercise equipment, trophies of his past adventures, and even a fricking alien zoo.

[Gold Samurai]

Birth Right is nothing but a cheap tactic to cash in on the popularity of the Smallville TV show. I love the show. some of the best writing on TV right now.



bwahahaha!!! LOL......................oh your serious. I've been following the show since it premiered but its just an okay show

[DavidTyler]

Isildur and Question ... I am SO in the same place as you on this.

[The Bruce]

When's John Byrne's 5th Man of steel tpb coming?