I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[Kelly]

Oh, come on, Lightnin. I think Wetgorilla was too definitive in his statements about mobs having a central leader (in riot situations, this is often not the case, for example), but you have to acknowledge that there are people that stand out on these boards as having a greater number of yes-men and yes/women offering congrats and adulations. From what I've seen in the FF forums, you and albafan seem to be elected prom king and queen. The disgusting thing is, a huge number of albafan's fans speak up with statements mainly about how "positive" she is. The same kind of thing happens with you, except not to the same degree, and you've offered more actual arguments pertaining to the subjects of controversy than "everyone's got their own opinion and disagreements between posters makes me so freakin' happy and educated" posts. I'm sure you feel differently, but it seems a bit shallow to laud someone for being simply cheerful and optimistic, and to do this constantly.

I have my own reasons for respecting both albafan and you, and I make sure to get the point across when I can. But you're not going to hear me shouting out praises for being positive and enthusiastic over a movie made my people that don't give a rat's ass about you, me or anyone but their own social and business circles.
I've insured that I will never become one of these beloved mob leaders that maintains a following of yes-men. Though there have been many people who backed me up just because I was willing to speak out against the majority and because I pack a punch in my posts, most posters who continue to support me here do so based on the actual substance of my posts, and not just a general emotional tone I tend to maintain. Considering this is the internet and most of us have never met each other, you'll have to take this statement as less than literal: When you're an a$$hole, you know who your friends really are.

The majority of the aforementioned so-called "sheep" on these boards (I'm quoting here, so don't go callin' C. Lee on my ass, dammit) are not following Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as their shepherds. The primary shepherds are producers and directors, and in the comic book forums, mainly current writers. It's extremely easy to pay lip service to Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and any other legendary creator, and even to make it sound convincing. It's quite another to actually value the source material more than products shaped by current trends in entertainment. I consider myself someone who values those creators' work as some of the highest quality fiction, and for whatever reason, I've got an imagination similar enough to those creators' so that I can visualize those stories and characters (edited for time, of course) on the silver screen without a lot of alterations. That's not to say that I'm as creative as Stan and the rest, but having imagination is about either creating and clearly perceiving images from either an external source or one's own mind, or both. It's a bless and a curse, but it should never be criticized in and of itself just because the majority of humans on this planet have not been raised and conditioned to value it. Stan Lee, for example, is far more intelligent than most human beings and has (or had) an amazing gift for applying that intelligence in a constructive manner. That doesn't make him someone only a "fanboy" could respect. That makes him a remarkable figure in literary and entertainment history.

:wolverine

Thank you for being honest H.L., I'll try and not use any "..." here so there is no misunderstanding of my meaning. Your post said more than 100 posts, and I appreciate your honesty in it.

[Head>On<Collider]

Let's discuss Doom. Shall we? :rolleyes: What for? It'd be the same old BS anyway....... :rolleyes:

[Head>On<Collider]

Hey look here everyone.... Finland only has 2 Dr Doom fans! :

http://www.fanlistings.org/dr_doom/members.php

[Gratticus]

Oh, come on, Lightnin. I think Wetgorilla was too definitive in his statements about mobs having a central leader (in riot situations, this is often not the case, for example), but you have to acknowledge that there are people that stand out on these boards as having a greater number of yes-men and yes/women offering congrats and adulations. From what I've seen in the FF forums, you and albafan seem to be elected prom king and queen. The disgusting thing is, a huge number of albafan's fans speak up with statements mainly about how "positive" she is. The same kind of thing happens with you, except not to the same degree, and you've offered more actual arguments pertaining to the subjects of controversy than "everyone's got their own opinion and disagreements between posters makes me so freakin' happy and educated" posts. I'm sure you feel differently, but it seems a bit shallow to laud someone for being simply cheerful and optimistic, and to do this constantly.

I have my own reasons for respecting both albafan and you, and I make sure to get the point across when I can. But you're not going to hear me shouting out praises for being positive and enthusiastic over a movie made my people that don't give a rat's ass about you, me or anyone but their own social and business circles.
I've insured that I will never become one of these beloved mob leaders that maintains a following of yes-men. Though there have been many people who backed me up just because I was willing to speak out against the majority and because I pack a punch in my posts, most posters who continue to support me here do so based on the actual substance of my posts, and not just a general emotional tone I tend to maintain. Considering this is the internet and most of us have never met each other, you'll have to take this statement as less than literal: When you're an a$$hole, you know who your friends really are.

The majority of the aforementioned so-called "sheep" on these boards (I'm quoting here, so don't go callin' C. Lee on my ass, dammit) are not following Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as their shepherds. The primary shepherds are producers and directors, and in the comic book forums, mainly current writers. It's extremely easy to pay lip service to Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and any other legendary creator, and even to make it sound convincing. It's quite another to actually value the source material more than products shaped by current trends in entertainment. I consider myself someone who values those creators' work as some of the highest quality fiction, and for whatever reason, I've got an imagination similar enough to those creators' so that I can visualize those stories and characters (edited for time, of course) on the silver screen without a lot of alterations. That's not to say that I'm as creative as Stan and the rest, but having imagination is about either creating and clearly perceiving images from either an external source or one's own mind, or both. It's a bless and a curse, but it should never be criticized in and of itself just because the majority of humans on this planet have not been raised and conditioned to value it. Stan Lee, for example, is far more intelligent than most human beings and has (or had) an amazing gift for applying that intelligence in a constructive manner. That doesn't make him someone only a "fanboy" could respect. That makes him a remarkable figure in literary and entertainment history.

:wolverine

I'll be your yes-man anyday, hun.:hyper:

[Ulic Queldroma]

What for? It'd be the same old BS anyway....... :rolleyes:

Great point, orange9! <claps hands in approval.> All we need to know is that there are some who hate movie Doom, some who like him and some who are in the middle about the whole thing. And all we hear is the same arguments over and over. The point is moot. The movie is almost finished, headed to the editing room and will be released in three months. Nothing said here will change anything that has already been filmed. Nothing.

[Ulic Queldroma]

Hey look here everyone.... Finland only has 2 Dr Doom fans! :

http://www.fanlistings.org/dr_doom/members.php

2 in a row! You're on a roll! LOL! Great diversion! :up:

[Head>On<Collider]

Great point, orange9! <claps hands in approval.> All we need to know is that there are some who hate movie Doom, some who like him and some who are in the middle about the whole thing. And all we hear is the same arguments over and over. The point is moot. The movie is almost finished, headed to the editing room and will be released in three months. Nothing said here will change anything that has already been filmed. Nothing.Even though your response was true, I was kind of being sarcastic.
Doom is worth discussing whether it's movie Doom, Classic Doom, Ultimate Doom, Alternate reality Doom, etc. He displays characteristics of the human psyche if not more than, then as much as any protagonist character within Marvel's or even DC's universe. He's an icon, hence the passion displayed all over these boards over his film portrayal.

[Saph]

I posted this in the Doom, did they get it right? thread and now I post it here:

Doom is symbolically similar to Movie!Doom. Here's why:

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-So what if he doesn't wear his armour? It is not unlike Doom to embrace power (I believe in Secret War he stole the Beyonder's power, in fact even in the Lee/Kirby days he stole Silver Surfer's board and power cosmic). A line he says in the trailer: ''I always wanted power..'' shows that chances are if he didn't get powers from those cosmic rays, he would've probably built a means of having power eventually anyway. ( A suit of armour for example.) And, more symbolism.. Doom still gets the scars which he could blame Richards for, after all, wasn't Richards in the cosmic ray accident with him? He still hides the small scar behind a mask. What's that you say? They are still lacking the part where his arrogance scars him even further? Well, if my theory is correct, he mutates himself further with the Transformation Chamber, covering his face with organic metal. Similar to the small scar- grotesquely scarred face of John Byrne's origin? I think so. So, in a metaphorical way, Doom does build his own armour.

-You say Doom lacks his gypsy background. We have no proof he does not have that background.. they haven't mentioned anything about it. That could still be there.

-The Love Triangle is not a love triangle at all. Doom never loved Sue. Is it even proven that this is actually a relationship, anyway? None of the promos even hint at any love story, besides the one between Sue and Reed, which is no travesty. Sue is merely going out with Doom. Doom has no intention to marry Sue.. even if he did it would've been because he needed a good housewife and trophy to show to his rival Richards. Doom loses all respect for Sue anyway, as we see him in the trailer throw a bigass lightning bolt at her.
That 'let's not fight' line in the trailer doesn't show any consideration for Sue to me.. it sounded more like he was trying to catch her off guard in my opinion.

-Doom's sense of superiority over everyone else. He has a statue of himself outside his building, holding atoms in his hands. He may as well have a billboard saying; ''I am your superior, only I can control science, I hold science in the palm of my hand!'' It also has a sense of monarchy to it, which adds to my first point. He even starts a false relationship with the most beautiful girl working for him just to prove he can.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')

-Doom's latverian roots aren't gone. His mask is from Latveria.. there may be more significance to that mask other than just armour. Methinks it's a gift from his dad, just before he died, and that it's a reminder that he will one day take over Latveria, using that very mask as an image to instill fear.

Of course, this is only if they decide to do Doom this way. It's all about how you look at things.

I can tell you this, though: I will not be dissapointed on July 8th. Considering the movie comes out July 22nd for me..

[Head>On<Collider]

I posted this in the Doom, did they get it right? thread and now I post it here:

Doom is symbolically similar to Movie!Doom. Here's why:

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-So what if he doesn't wear his armour? It is not unlike Doom to embrace power (I believe in Secret War he stole the Beyonder's power, in fact even in the Lee/Kirby days he stole Silver Surfer's board and power cosmic). A line he says in the trailer: ''I always wanted power..'' shows that chances are if he didn't get powers from those cosmic rays, he would've probably built a means of having power eventually anyway. ( A suit of armour for example.) And, more symbolism.. Doom still gets the scars which he could blame Richards for, after all, wasn't Richards in the cosmic ray accident with him? He still hides the small scar behind a mask. What's that you say? They are still lacking the part where his arrogance scars him even further? Well, if my theory is correct, he mutates himself further with the Transformation Chamber, covering his face with organic metal. Similar to the small scar- grotesquely scarred face of John Byrne's origin? I think so. So, in a metaphorical way, Doom does build his own armour.

-You say Doom lacks his gypsy background. We have no proof he does not have that background.. they haven't mentioned anything about it. That could still be there.

-The Love Triangle is not a love triangle at all. Doom never loved Sue. Is it even proven that this is actually a relationship, anyway? None of the promos even hint at any love story, besides the one between Sue and Reed, which is no travesty. Sue is merely going out with Doom. Doom has no intention to marry Sue.. even if he did it would've been because he needed a good housewife and trophy to show to his rival Richards. Doom loses all respect for Sue anyway, as we see him in the trailer throw a bigass lightning bolt at her.
That 'let's not fight' line in the trailer doesn't show any consideration for Sue to me.. it sounded more like he was trying to catch her off guard in my opinion.

-Doom's sense of superiority over everyone else. He has a statue of himself outside his building, holding atoms in his hands. He may as well have a billboard saying; ''I am your superior, only I can control science, I hold science in the palm of my hand!'' It also has a sense of monarchy to it, which adds to my first point. He even starts a false relationship with the most beautiful girl working for him just to prove he can.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')

-Doom's latverian roots aren't gone. His mask is from Latveria.. there may be more significance to that mask other than just armour. Methinks it's a gift from his dad, just before he died, and that it's a reminder that he will one day take over Latveria, using that very mask as an image to instill fear.

Of course, this is only if they decide to do Doom this way. It's all about how you look at things.

I can tell you this, though: I will not be dissapointed on July 8th. Considering the movie comes out July 22nd for me..Believe it or not, I was just about to comment and reedify how good of a post this was, Saph. I may not agree with it, but it's a good arguement anyway

[Mister Sinister]

Found this on Wrestlecrap, the wrestling equivalent of Dr. Doom!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/wwow.html

[Head>On<Collider]

Found this on Wrestlecrap, the wrestling equivalent of Dr. Doom!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/wwow.htmlIt looks like the member from Slipknot.

[Herr Logan]

That's quite a post there Herr. ;)

Even though I disagree with some segments of it, there is much I understand from it as well. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I hardly consider myself the "leader" here. And, not to be coy, I doubt anyone else seriously views me in that light either.

Now, what I do try to do is make threads that make people think outside the box--and I believe that quality and quantity adds to a forum. I look at the examples of folks like Captain Stacy, Iron Maiden, Willie Lumpkin, Vartha etc., and see how they use their FF knowledge to educate and enlighten casual fans on the greatness that is Fantastic Four. I simply try to use my voice and knowledge in a similar vein.

But let's not get it twisted: while I may try to spark conversation, that definitely doesn't qualify me as "the leader". :rolleyes: We have many talented and respected folks in this forum, and I am simply supporting them with what I know from collecting these books. And to be frank, I've PMed many a poster about labeling me as a "leader" anyway. This is a comic book discussion forum, so it's hardly that deep for me. Granted, I do wear a badge in everyday life, but not one for SHH.

I come here to discuss Fantastic Four--not to win a popularity contest. It's easy for those who are new here to assign alterior motives to some of us mainstays but...truth be told...High School ended for me....a long time ago. ;)

I'm almost certain that you're mistaken, and it's my fault for being unclear.

I didn't mean to say that you were trying to win a popularity contest. I was commenting on the behavior of FF forum regulars on the whole, and how a large portion of them tend to flock around a strong personality and sometimes let them do the thinking for them.

I guess the one thing I mean to say but completely left out was that you qualify as a "leader" because you naturally come across that way on here. The fact that you're smarter than most posters on the entire site and actually spark intelligent discussions makes you a leader for both people too shallow to think for themselves as well as people who are intelligent but are introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking by you.

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I'll be your yes-man anyday, hun.:hyper:
Hun? First I'm an "unofficial despot," now I'm a hun?? :(

Or does that mean you qualify for "groupie" status? Yes-men are cheap, but groupies and yes-women are cheap and useful. ;)

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Believe it or not, I was just about to comment and reedify how good of a post this was, Saph. I may not agree with it, but it's a good arguement anyway

His talent is frightening. The Force is strong in this one. That's why one of us better kill him before he gets further involved with the Dark Side.

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

Even though your response was true, I was kind of being sarcastic.
Doom is worth discussing whether it's movie Doom, Classic Doom, Ultimate Doom, Alternate reality Doom, etc. He displays characteristics of the human psyche if not more than, then as much as any protagonist character within Marvel's or even DC's universe. He's an icon, hence the passion displayed all over these boards over his film portrayal.

Hell, Doom has such a popularity among fans that he was given his own mag alongside of Ka-Zar back in the 70's.

Wetgorilla

[Saph]

I'm almost certain that you're mistaken, and it's my fault for being unclear.

I didn't mean to say that you were trying to win a popularity contest. I was commenting on the behavior of FF forum regulars on the whole, and how a large portion of them tend to flock around a strong personality and sometimes let them do the thinking for them.

I guess the one thing I mean to say but completely left out was that you qualify as a "leader" because you naturally come across that way on here. The fact that you're smarter than most posters on the entire site and actually spark intelligent discussions makes you a leader for both people too shallow to think for themselves as well as people who are intelligent but are introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking by you.

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?

:wolverine

Let's just say Lightnin has a sense of leadership, and although he isn't an 'official' leader, people follow him for advice.

[wetgorilla]

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')


This version of Doom has more problems with him than the Mole Man has minions. Now, I'm going to address two points on Saph's list and although this is not a flaw with Saph or his argument, it is a flaw with Tim Story's Doom (no mere fan can be responsible for Story's mess).



- Hollywood has a bad habit such when they need to round up an egomaniac, arrogant mastermind to go up against their hero, he's cast as a corporate business man. - Corporate business men aren't all that intelligent or complete in their plans. Industrialists and corporate leaders aren't imposing on such a level. So, casting an industrialist to play Doom is going down a notch. Also, Doom has never been about the almighty dollar, or has shared any traits with an industrialist. The idea a corporation is a model for a kingdom is over simplifying the issue. The goals of a corporation is money - Doom cares nothing for green-back!



- ''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him. Open a mag from the eighties, seventies or sixties and you'll see Doom make general comments more than anything else. This piece of dialog doesn't sound like Doom or anything someone of Doom's level would say. It does, however, sound like a script writer who is providing cookie-cutter dialog.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[GoblinScrier]

Well, after all we have learned from different sources...we are definitely not getting a TRUE Dr. Doom but a Dr. Doom that has a lot of the same qualities with some major differences. I am still looking forward to Julian's portrayal (I still think he is one of the best relatively unknown choices they could have went with).

I wish that "super rubber" line was wiped out and maybe it will be. It is just that Doom speaks with such elegance and such contempt. Lines like "Are you mad, Richards, Doom needs no help from you or any man ?"

I really hope he talks like that in the movie at least once or twice. He has to yell "Richards !!!!"

However, the one thing I am still a bit luke warm is the "supposed" ending:




***SPOILERS BELOW***










The idea of Doom being super heated then super cooled (because of his organic armor, this wouldn't have happened if he had his normal armor but that is besides the point), then crated off to Latveria is not the best solution. Why couldn't some of his minions come along and un-statue him (I know that is not a word :) and then he invades Latveria at the end and takes over which leads into part 2.

[theunknowngoat]

I was just thinking Reed and Doom went to College together right? I doubt then Vic had intentions of becoming ruler of Latveria(I may be wrong I love comics just history has never been my strong point) If I remember correctly he was driven mad after an accident with Reed at which point everything kind of bubbled over with the technology, black magic, mother , father, and then hes ruler of Latveria(not neccessarily in that order.
So what not to say this movie set him up with this amasing power, He goes back to Latveria(If he surrvives) and becomes their Leader(Ruler/Dictator). I say that is a very likely set up for a sequal in my mind, the F4 have to battle with the leader of an entire country with all of its resourses at his command to build an unstoppable army of Robots, or perhaps hes Ruling the country through some sort of figure head like person and he makes a surprise attack at the F4 appreciation dinner with Doom bots and lighnitng flying everywhere.. who knows, just give it time. Remeber all the gripe about Spider-mans Organic webshooters, no one is complaining now.

[Onlooker]

''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him.


Hello. I've been reading your posts for some time but have refrained from joining because, which I'm a great fan of Julian McMahon, I'm not really very knowledgeable about comics so didn't think I had much to contribute. However, I simply couldn't resist responding to the above comment, which I've seen raised in various forms several times before.

The line "Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?" is pure sarcasm. Its a rhetorical question. He's not asking for or expacting a reply, its simply a form of quiet, ironic menace. I don't know more about Dr. Doom than I've read here, but that line seems to me to be the epitome of the character you've been describing.

[theunknowngoat]

Yes it is rhetorical, I also believe it was Super cool, I clearly remember seeing Ioan frozen to a chair (for one of the setdec/costumes continuity pictures) There was some holding his cell phone to his head as he couldn't move his arms, perhaps its both..... I'm not sure now....

[wetgorilla]

Hello. I've been reading your posts for some time but have refrained from joining because, which I'm a great fan of Julian McMahon, I'm not really very knowledgeable about comics so didn't think I had much to contribute. However, I simply couldn't resist responding to the above comment, which I've seen raised in various forms several times before.

The line "Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?" is pure sarcasm. Its a rhetorical question. He's not asking for or expacting a reply, its simply a form of quiet, ironic menace. I don't know more about Dr. Doom than I've read here, but that line seems to me to be the epitome of the character you've been describing.

I was wondering when someone would come running out waving that particular rebut to my point. My response is simple enough. I am completely aware it is a rhetorical question and felt everyone else was as well. I refered to it as a question, because rhetorical or not - it still falls under the term "question". Doom doesn't particularly ask rhetorical questions while in battle (he may ask one directed to himself to facilitate his own pondering when he is alone). So, this issue isn't a matter of misunderstanding the context of a question or statement, but rather the language being used by a particular type of character.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

***SPOILERS BELOW***

The idea of Doom being super heated then super cooled (because of his organic armor, this wouldn't have happened if he had his normal armor but that is besides the point), then crated off to Latveria is not the best solution. Why couldn't some of his minions come along and un-statue him (I know that is not a word :) and then he invades Latveria at the end and takes over which leads into part 2.

I was hoping this would one day get out onto this forum. It's a major aspect of this film that will have audiences wanting to sneak into another movie afterwards in an attempt to get their "moneys-worth" for the day.

How unoriginal could Story and his boys be? Think about how many antogonists have been defeated in similar fashions. This type of altering leans more in the direction of not trusting the source material rather than paying homage to it. Come on, people.

Wetgorilla

[Saph]

This version of Doom has more problems with him than the Mole Man has minions. Now, I'm going to address two points on Saph's list and although this is not a flaw with Saph or his argument, it is a flaw with Tim Story's Doom (no mere fan can be responsible for Story's mess).



- Hollywood has a bad habit such when they need to round up an egomaniac, arrogant mastermind to go up against their hero, he's cast as a corporate business man. - Corporate business men aren't all that intelligent or complete in their plans. Industrialists and corporate leaders aren't imposing on such a level. So, casting an industrialist to play Doom is going down a notch. Also, Doom has never been about the almighty dollar, or has shared any traits with an industrialist. The idea a corporation is a model for a kingdom is over simplifying the issue. The goals of a corporation is money - Doom cares nothing for green-back!
I have addressed this very point in the Doom: did they get it right? thread. I'm sure Doom in real life would become a businessman in America; money is the main source of power in America. Doom would be merely taking advantage of their 'foolish' ways of obtaining power. It is childs play for Doom to obtain enough money to do anything he wants. Doom uses money, it doesn't mean he has to like it.


- ''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him. Open a mag from the eighties, seventies or sixties and you'll see Doom make general comments more than anything else. This piece of dialog doesn't sound like Doom or anything someone of Doom's level would say. It does, however, sound like a script writer who is providing cookie-cutter dialog.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine


What you are forgetting, Wetgorilla, is that Doom is saying that while burning a man alive.

[Lightning Strykez!]

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?



If it was, it wasn't with my permission, and I will not be drafted. While I appreciate compliments (who doesn't?)from others when I launch new threads for discussion, it is vital that we differentiate 'being accepted in a community' from 'leadership of a community'. These are two very distinct categories, and as far as I'm concerned, I've always aimed to fall squarely into only one of them (and it's not the latter). That's always been my attitude and those I am close to on the PM level can attest to that.

Like I said...I like to keep the ball of discussion rolling...that's what I do. And that's all I've ever done. Give the Leadership Badge to C. Lee--he's the one that can end our SHH lives with the press of a button. ;)

[Herr Logan]

Let's just say Lightnin has a sense of leadership, and although he isn't an 'official' leader, people follow him for advice.

Thanks for putting it far more succinctly. ;)

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

This version of Doom has more problems with him than the Mole Man has minions. Now, I'm going to address two points on Saph's list and although this is not a flaw with Saph or his argument, it is a flaw with Tim Story's Doom (no mere fan can be responsible for Story's mess).



- Hollywood has a bad habit such when they need to round up an egomaniac, arrogant mastermind to go up against their hero, he's cast as a corporate business man. - Corporate business men aren't all that intelligent or complete in their plans. Industrialists and corporate leaders aren't imposing on such a level. So, casting an industrialist to play Doom is going down a notch. Also, Doom has never been about the almighty dollar, or has shared any traits with an industrialist. The idea a corporation is a model for a kingdom is over simplifying the issue. The goals of a corporation is money - Doom cares nothing for green-back!

I don't know much about big business, but it seems to me that a CEO usually does need to be intelligent. It's the specific kind of intelligence that's the issue, however. It's my impression that a person like that gets by more on their social skills and networking than anything else. If Doom has a failing in any area of intelligence, it's got to be social intelligence. :up:



- ''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him. Open a mag from the eighties, seventies or sixties and you'll see Doom make general comments more than anything else. This piece of dialog doesn't sound like Doom or anything someone of Doom's level would say. It does, however, sound like a script writer who is providing cookie-cutter dialog.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine



I don't know what context this line is in or what tone is used (I'm assuming it's directed at Reed Richards while he's preparing to roast Reed alive), but I could see Doom conceivably asking Reed a science question. Only if he used it in a condescending and malicious tone to basically make a sadistic "in-joke" to his fellow genius scientist while he's preparing to harm him using advanced scientific methods, and if he did ask such a question, it would have to be something only the most educated scientists would know about. Heat + rubber = (fill in the blank)? No, I don't think so. It would have to be something that, out of all the characters present during the scene, only Reed and himself would know (unless of course the Beast, Giant Man and other massive intellects were also present) the answer to.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Remeber all the gripe about Spider-mans Organic webshooters, no one is complaining now.

Lying is wrong. So is making absolute statements that can't possibly be true.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Hello. I've been reading your posts for some time but have refrained from joining because, which I'm a great fan of Julian McMahon, I'm not really very knowledgeable about comics so didn't think I had much to contribute. However, I simply couldn't resist responding to the above comment, which I've seen raised in various forms several times before.

The line "Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?" is pure sarcasm. Its a rhetorical question. He's not asking for or expacting a reply, its simply a form of quiet, ironic menace. I don't know more about Dr. Doom than I've read here, but that line seems to me to be the epitome of the character you've been describing.

Welcome to the Hype.

I've commented on this already, and I agree that with the right tone, right circumstances and the right question, a properly portrayed Doom could speak this way. This line in particular doesn't fit the bill, though.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

If it was, it wasn't with my permission, and I will not be drafted. While I appreciate compliments (who doesn't?)from others when I launch new threads for discussion, it is vital that we differentiate 'being accepted in a community' from 'leadership of a community'. These are two very distinct categories, and as far as I'm concerned, I've always aimed to fall squarely into only one of them (and it's not the latter). That's always been my attitude and those I am close to on the PM level can attest to that.

Like I said...I like to keep the ball of discussion rolling...that's what I do. And that's all I've ever done. Give the Leadership Badge to C. Lee--he's the one that can end our SHH lives with the press of a button. ;)

C. Lee, in general, acts as a police force, not a proactive educational or philosophical leader. This is not to say that he can't or hasn't offered guidance or asked questions that led to great discussions. I know he's answered several of my questions when I really just didn't know what's going on. This is an essential function of his job, not an assessment of his character. Grampaw Lee is the most fair, intelligent and helpful moderator I know of, but he's been given the responsibility of keeping the peace, and he's been doing a good job.

As for you being drafted for prom king without your permission, I just want you to know I would never have done that to you or albafan.

I wrote "Orange9mm" and "Iron Maiden" on my ballot. ;)

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

I'd like to know what others here think about the posted spoiler and their thoughts on Movie Doom's demise? I think it's very akin to what happened to Mr. Freeze a few Batman movies ago.

Where are those ju-ju bees?

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

Personally I think it sounds utterly ridiculous. :mad:

But it might look better on screen than it does in print. That's my hope anyway. I could've thought of a much more...creative way...to hold Dr. Doom at bay.

[Lightning Strykez!]

C. Lee, in general, acts as a police force, not a proactive educational or philosophical leader. This is not to say that he can't or hasn't offered guidance or asked questions that led to great discussions. I know he's answered several of my questions when I really just didn't know what's going on. This is an essential function of his job, not an assessment of his character. Grampaw Lee is the most fair, intelligent and helpful moderator I know of, but he's been given the responsibility of keeping the peace, and he's been doing a good job.

As for you being drafted for prom king without your permission, I just want you to know I would never have done that to you or albafan.

I wrote "Orange9mm" and "Iron Maiden" on my ballot. ;)

:wolverine

Well, I guess there's always the 2006 Bennie Awards. :cool:

[Kmack]

Personally I think it sounds utterly ridiculous. :mad:

But it might look better on screen than it does in print. That's my hope anyway. I could've thought of a much more...creative way...to hold Dr. Doom at bay.
Can someone fill me in:confused:

[Kelly]

The disgusting thing is, a huge number of albafan's fans speak up with statements mainly about how "positive" she is. The same kind of thing happens with you, except not to the same degree, and you've offered more actual arguments pertaining to the subjects of controversy than "everyone's got their own opinion and disagreements between posters makes me so freakin' happy and educated" posts. I'm sure you feel differently, but it seems a bit shallow to laud someone for being simply cheerful and optimistic, and to do this constantly.

I had some time to think about this statement yesterday....and was throughly enlightened with my revelations.

I never asked for any titles, never strived for any titles. I came to this board as Albafan, to have fun, bring something new (maybe) to the table, learn something new, and get to know all kinds of people. Forums are extremely hard for me as a whole...I'm more an "eye contact" person...but I've learned over the past months to get past that for the most part. Never once did I think my opinion of something would be called stupid, w/o knowledge, sheepish, and a few other words as well...I also never thought that being cheerful, optimistic, allowing others to give their opinions was "shallow"...but to some I guess it is....Well I've been educated alittle more I guess and thats a good thing.

Positivity to me was just a word I like to use in my class that allows my kids to give their opinions in an atmosphere of openess, and respectful banter...we have fun, and we learn from each other. Never once, NEVER ONCE, have I said that it was the battle cry for one side or the other.....I don't even know what the hell there are sides on this forum for......what? we have teams here???? THE POSITIVITY TEAM AND THE NEGATIVITY TEAM how stupid is that....and childish....and petty....I came in thinking there would be people who were here much like me because their favorite actors were cast, others because they had been fans of the Fantastic Four Comics for years....HOW STUPID OF ME TO THINK THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT AND HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER....HOW UTTERLY IGNORANT THAT WAS OF ME....

I've gotten to know so many of you really well...I know about your kids, I know how excited you are about things going on in your lives. I can actually tell when some of you are having bad days, just by how you respond to posts...I can even tell when HL is having a bad day...how crazy is that....I don't look at your SN's and make a judgment...I look at your posts...I read your PM's and your IM's to me....if I make any judgments, thats where they come from...

Just let people B**** if they want too, let people Cheer if they want too...let people give opinions just because they want too....let people disagree with you just because they disagree...

How dare we call people "trolls" because they may have a very strong passion for their opinion and maybe that opinion says they don't like AT ALL what they see happening with this movie....most of the true trolls have posted once or twice and haven't been seen since....


How dare we call people sheep, and idiots, and followers, and yes-men because they agree that they like what they have seen so far from this movie...

How dare we make fun of people just because they are new to the F4 and don't know every freakin series #....and how dare we use the name "fanboy" or "purist" to mean some pimply faced kid in a basement reading comics...I'm sorry I just don't see Iron Maiden or Lightnin as that...

How dare we let this get so carried away that we now have a sticky at the top of our thread to remind us how to act....that blows my mind....

Soooooooooooo....with all of that said......If I have called names, hurt feelings, flamed wars, I apologize...

BUT

I will never apologize for being cheerful, positive, seeing the glass "half-full, having a desire to wait in my judgements of this movie, or HATING it when people are spoken down to when debated with on this board....I hate that with a passion....and I'm sorry to say that this is the first time I've actually said that....that was a grave mistake on my part...I should have spoken up a long time ago, and didn't...I didn't because I was afraid that again all that people would see was Albafan and throw it out the window...because in the past thats exactly what has happened...others on this forum could bring alot to this party, they really could but their hands are tied because for some reason they just don't like being looked as ignorant...while others have totally gone from this place (some I'm happy to say have returned) because they felt like they were being looked at as a ridiculous purist fanboy...and yet they brought so much to this party as well....thats sad.

Well you guys can have your sides...you can even give yourselves names...I don't want any part of it...someone else can take the titles cause I don't want them...I'll continue to do what I enjoy here on this board and that is post info, and pics when I get them....and thats what I will continue to do....and read more comics and discuss those on the other thread....but until we learn how to respect what people bring to this table...I won't sit at it...I've lost my appetite and enjoyment of this meal.

Thats all.....

I apologize to Sar for derailing his thread....you can now get back to Doom...

Kel

BTW: before anyone starts throwing things around like .... you need to look in the mirror references.....that was part of my enlightenment...so put that in your own pipe and smoke it...

[wobbly]

Can someone fill me inhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

I think they are referring to how Doom gets defeated. Apparently he is super-cooled then super-heated (presumably by the torch?) which 'fuses' him, then his paralysed metal body is crated up and sent off to Latveria)

[Saph]

I think they are referring to how Doom gets defeated. Apparently he is super-cooled then super-heated (presumably by the torch?) which 'fuses' him, then his paralysed metal body is crated up and sent off to Latveria)

I wouldn't describe it as a 'fuse' than rather how metal reacts to being super-cooled and being super-heated again in a short amount of time.

I've just realised something. I have a theory saying that Doom uses the transformation chamber, mutating himself further so that the metal covers his face. However that is just a theory..

If it is not true, and all that Doom has is that mask, perhaps upon being 'super heated', his unprotected face scars horribly?

Or even if he does mutate himself further, being super-heated causes his metal skin to crack, revealing the flesh underneath, and is scarred from it?

[Kmack]

I think they are referring to how Doom gets defeated. Apparently he is super-cooled then super-heated (presumably by the torch?) which 'fuses' him, then his paralysed metal body is crated up and sent off to Latveria)
Thanx wobbly:)

[Herr Logan]

Personally I think it sounds utterly ridiculous. :mad:

But it might look better on screen than it does in print. That's my hope anyway. I could've thought of a much more...creative way...to hold Dr. Doom at bay.

Doom shouldn't be captured at all. I couldn't care less what the countless hordes of pro-studio posters have to say about "realism" and "believability"; the most faithful way to end the conflict with Dr. Doom in a first movie (or any other movie, really) that also leaves his future as a villain wide open for later films is to have him escape, specifically by having the "him" that gets caught turn out to be a robot. There's no excuse whatsoever for them cutting out his huge penchant and talent for robotics.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I had some time to think about this statement yesterday....and was throughly enlightened with my revelations.

I never asked for any titles, never strived for any titles. I came to this board as Albafan, to have fun, bring something new (maybe) to the table, learn something new, and get to know all kinds of people. Forums are extremely hard for me as a whole...I'm more an "eye contact" person...but I've learned over the past months to get past that for the most part. Never once did I think my opinion of something would be called stupid, w/o knowledge, sheepish, and a few other words as well...I also never thought that being cheerful, optimistic, allowing others to give their opinions was "shallow"...but to some I guess it is....Well I've been educated alittle more I guess and thats a good thing.

Positivity to me was just a word I like to use in my class that allows my kids to give their opinions in an atmosphere of openess, and respectful banter...we have fun, and we learn from each other. Never once, NEVER ONCE, have I said that it was the battle cry for one side or the other.....I don't even know what the hell there are sides on this forum for......what? we have teams here???? THE POSITIVITY TEAM AND THE NEGATIVITY TEAM how stupid is that....and childish....and petty....I came in thinking there would be people who were here much like me because their favorite actors were cast, others because they had been fans of the Fantastic Four Comics for years....HOW STUPID OF ME TO THINK THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT AND HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER....HOW UTTERLY IGNORANT THAT WAS OF ME....

I've gotten to know so many of you really well...I know about your kids, I know how excited you are about things going on in your lives. I can actually tell when some of you are having bad days, just by how you respond to posts...I can even tell when HL is having a bad day...how crazy is that....I don't look at your SN's and make a judgment...I look at your posts...I read your PM's and your IM's to me....if I make any judgments, thats where they come from...

Just let people B**** if they want too, let people Cheer if they want too...let people give opinions just because they want too....let people disagree with you just because they disagree...

How dare we call people "trolls" because they may have a very strong passion for their opinion and maybe that opinion says they don't like AT ALL what they see happening with this movie....most of the true trolls have posted once or twice and haven't been seen since....


How dare we call people sheep, and idiots, and followers, and yes-men because they agree that they like what they have seen so far from this movie...

How dare we make fun of people just because they are new to the F4 and don't know every freakin series #....and how dare we use the name "fanboy" or "purist" to mean some pimply faced kid in a basement reading comics...I'm sorry I just don't see Iron Maiden or Lightnin as that...

How dare we let this get so carried away that we now have a sticky at the top of our thread to remind us how to act....that blows my mind....

Soooooooooooo....with all of that said......If I have called names, hurt feelings, flamed wars, I apologize...

BUT

I will never apologize for being cheerful, positive, seeing the glass "half-full, having a desire to wait in my judgements of this movie, or HATING it when people are spoken down to when debated with on this board....I hate that with a passion....and I'm sorry to say that this is the first time I've actually said that....that was a grave mistake on my part...I should have spoken up a long time ago, and didn't...I didn't because I was afraid that again all that people would see was Albafan and throw it out the window...because in the past thats exactly what has happened...others on this forum could bring alot to this party, they really could but their hands are tied because for some reason they just don't like being looked as ignorant...while others have totally gone from this place (some I'm happy to say have returned) because they felt like they were being looked at as a ridiculous purist fanboy...and yet they brought so much to this party as well....thats sad.

Well you guys can have your sides...you can even give yourselves names...I don't want any part of it...someone else can take the titles cause I don't want them...I'll continue to do what I enjoy here on this board and that is post info, and pics when I get them....and thats what I will continue to do....and read more comics and discuss those on the other thread....but until we learn how to respect what people bring to this table...I won't sit at it...I've lost my appetite and enjoyment of this meal.

Thats all.....

I apologize to Sar for derailing his thread....you can now get back to Doom...

Kel

BTW: before anyone starts throwing things around like .... you need to look in the mirror references.....that was part of my enlightenment...so put that in your own pipe and smoke it...

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you were shallow. I haven't been very clear or concise in recent days, and that's no one else's fault but my own. I was merely expressing my observations of people who tend to rally around a person such as yourself and throw out words like "positivity" as standards and "negativity" as some kind of insult in and of itself, even when the person they hold up as an example does not actually do these things. I've seen some fairly condescending remarks from you, but you never crossed the line as far as saying things like "fanboy purists" and calling people "negative" as perjorative. I apologize if I've given the impression that I thought positivity in and of itself was a weakness or an unfavorable quality in and of itself. That's never what I meant to get across.

As for one specific senrtence of mine that you quoted, I admit that I find it frustrating when you habitually respond to a critical post with the assertion that you've learned from it, while offering little or no proof that you intend to apply whatever alleged insight you've gleaned from such posts. That comes across as condescending when it becomes a pattern (and I should know, since I'm the king of "condescending"). If this is another misunderstanding like the "..." issue we resolved recently, then I apologize.

I'm sure I mixed up my messages in that paragraph by blurring the issue of your response patterns with my more intense frustration over the countless comments from people I truly do consider to be shallow (based on the specific content of their respective posts, not based on some generalization) perpetually comparing "negative" posters against "postive" posters without offering anyspecific or valid arguments as to how one is better than the other. This is not how you've specifically expressed yourself, but it is how countless others have, and it sickens me. LightninStrikez happens to have very strong opinions against the handling of Dr. Doom in this movie, yet people have still held him up as an example of a "positive" poster who doesn't "whine" and "*****" about an allegedly minor aspect of the film such as Dr. Doom. This strikes me as ignorant, shallow and disrespectful on a level far worse than any break of forum ettiquette-- a pervasive disrepect for the intellects of people that choose to apply said intellect instead of merely "going with the flow." Despite my lapses in judgement, I evaluate both you and LightninStrikez in your respective totalities. I respect you both for your honesty and fairness. When people pretend that you're just some generalized ideal they can use to compare with a vague caracature of me or any other "negative" poster, I don't tolerate it. I don't tolerate it from people that define themselves as "positive" while offering nothing of value to the discussion, and I don't tolerate it from people like wetgorilla whom, on a bad day, might be predisposed to write you off as an airhead with no capacity for analytical thought.

If you truly believe that I have written people off as "sheep" for merely expressing that they are looking forward to a movie or are merely content with the direction the studios are taking these stories, that is a particularly hurtful example of ignorance on your part, and on the part of anyone else who believes this. I'm far from perfect and I've lashed out inappropriately many times, but my obsessively "nitpicking" nature that so many people like to criticize is precisely what keeps me from making such a tasteless generalization as that. If someone can show me a real example of when I've called someone a sheep for nothing more than expressing their preferences alone, without any factual-type statements or criticism of their own (which would mean posting a link which leads to one of my own posts in its entirety, not simply quoting something that can't be confirmed or denied as having been posted by me from my own account), I'll acknowledge it, apologize, and explain why it's wrong to say such things. Until someone can show me even one valid example of this-- which has not happened yet-- I will not stand for people taking my words out of context to that extent. The fact that I'm abrasive and harshly critical is in not a justification for such an accusation in the slightest, because I'm made many, many efforts to explain the difference between judging an opinion and judging an attitude, and I've made it a point to refute people who normally agree with me if they make a mistake such as that. I will be nothing less than perfectly honest in response to any such accusation against me. If that is construed as grounds for banishment by the administrators, then so be it, because they're the ones who will have to live with their own hypocrisy.

I hope this clears things up at least a little.

:wolverine

[Saph]

Doom shouldn't be captured at all. I couldn't care less what the countless hordes of pro-studio posters have to say about "realism" and "believability"; the most faithful way to end the conflict with Dr. Doom in a first movie (or any other movie, really) that also leaves his future as a villain wide open for later films is to have him escape, specifically by having the "him" that gets caught turn out to be a robot. There's no excuse whatsoever for them cutting out his huge penchant and talent for robotics.

:wolverine

It could still be a robot. A robot can be taken out by being cooled then heated too fast as well. The way they describe Doom being taken home in a box to Latveria makes me think 'robot.'

[Kelly]

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you were shallow. I haven't been very clear or concise in recent days, and that's no one else's fault but my own. I was merely expressing my observations of people who tend to rally around a person such as yourself and throw out words like "positivity" as standards and "negativity" as some kind of insult in and of itself, even when the person they hold up as an example does not actually do these things. I've seen some fairly condescending remarks from you, but you never crossed the line as far as saying things like "fanboy purists" and calling people "negative" as perjorative. I apologize if I've given the impression that I thought positivity in and of itself was a weakness or an unfavorable quality in and of itself. That's never what I meant to get across.

As for one specific senrtence of mine that you quoted, I admit that I find it frustrating when you habitually respond to a critical post with the assertion that you've learned from it, while offering little or no proof that you intend to apply whatever alleged insight you've gleaned from such posts. That comes across as condescending when it becomes a pattern (and I should know, since I'm the king of "condescending"). If this is another misunderstanding like the "..." issue we resolved recently, then I apologize.

I'm sure I mixed up my messages in that paragraph by blurring the issue of your response patterns with my more intense frustration over the countless comments from people I truly do consider to be shallow (based on the specific content of their respective posts, not based on some generalization) perpetually comparing "negative" posters against "postive" posters without offering anyspecific or valid arguments as to how one is better than the other. This is not how you've specifically expressed yourself, but it is how countless others have, and it sickens me. LightninStrikez happens to have very strong opinions against the handling of Dr. Doom in this movie, yet people have still held him up as an example of a "positive" poster who doesn't "whine" and "*****" about an allegedly minor aspect of the film such as Dr. Doom. This strikes me as ignorant, shallow and disrespectful on a level far worse than any break of forum ettiquette-- a pervasive disrepect for the intellects of people that choose to apply said intellect instead of merely "going with the flow." Despite my lapses in judgement, I evaluate both you and LightninStrikez in your respective totalities. I respect you both for your honesty and fairness. When people pretend that you're just some generalized ideal they can use to compare with a vague caracature of me or any other "negative" poster, I don't tolerate it. I don't tolerate it from people that define themselves as "positive" while offering nothing of value to the discussion, and I don't tolerate it from people like wetgorilla whom, on a bad day, might be predisposed to write you off as an airhead with no capacity for analytical thought.

If you truly believe that I have written people off as "sheep" for merely expressing that they are looking forward to a movie or are merely content with the direction the studios are taking these stories, that is a particularly hurtful example of ignorance on your part, and on the part of anyone else who believes this. I'm far from perfect and I've lashed out inappropriately many times, but my obsessively "nitpicking" nature that so many people like to criticize is precisely what keeps me from making such a tasteless generalization as that. If someone can show me a real example of when I've called someone a sheep for nothing more than expressing their preferences alone, without any factual-type statements or criticism of their own (which would mean posting a link which leads to one of my own posts in its entirety, not simply quoting something that can't be confirmed or denied as having been posted by me from my own account), I'll acknowledge it, apologize, and explain why it's wrong to say such things. Until someone can show me even one valid example of this-- which has not happened yet-- I will not stand for people taking my words out of context to that extent. The fact that I'm abrasive and harshly critical is in not a justification for such an accusation in the slightest, because I'm made many, many efforts to explain the difference between judging an opinion and judging an attitude, and I've made it a point to refute people who normally agree with me if they make a mistake such as that. I will be nothing less than perfectly honest in response to any such accusation against me. If that is construed as grounds for banishment by the administrators, then so be it, because they're the ones who will have to live with their own hypocrisy.

I hope this clears things up at least a little.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/classicwolv.gif
__________________



Well misunderstood or not....doesn't really matter at this point...

Moving on...w/ alittle different view of things....

[Herr Logan]

It could still be a robot. A robot can be taken out by being cooled then heated too fast as well. The way they describe Doom being taken home in a box to Latveria makes me think 'robot.'

Yeah, I'd be fine with that. In fact, that would make it even more suspenseful, if you had to wait to find out it was a robot, and also if the Fantastic Four themselves didn't actually find out... until he came back in a later movie. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Well misunderstood or not....doesn't really matter at this point...

Moving on...w/ alittle different view of things....

Very cryptic. Remind me to place less value on clarity next time.

:wolverine

[Saph]

Yeah, I'd be fine with that. In fact, that would make it even more suspenseful, if you had to wait to find out it was a robot, and also if the Fantastic Four themselves didn't actually find out... until he came back in a later movie. :up:

:wolverine
Nah, an ending where Latverian airport security opens the crate, do something like drop Doom, his face opening up to reveal high-tech machinery and then an abrupt ending would be a LOT more suspenseful than what would appear to be a cheap cop-out to casual audiences.

It would give the audiences a feeling of ''Where the hell is Doom anyway?''

EDIT: ooh! Ooh! And then the robot explodes! :bomb: :D

[Herr Logan]

Nah, an ending where Latverian airport security opens the crate, do something like drop Doom, his face opening up to reveal high-tech machinery and then an abrupt ending would be a LOT more suspenseful than what would appear to be a cheap cop-out to casual audiences.

It would give the audiences a feeling of ''Where the hell is Doom anyway?''

EDIT: ooh! Ooh! And then the robot explodes! :bomb: :D

I didn't mean to say the audience would have to wait until a later movie to find out. I simply meant waiting a few scenes in between the incapacitation and the revelation that it's a robot. I meant that could be the note on which the film ends, but possibly without the Four knowing what we know.

:wolverine

[portland2002]

Doom shouldn't be captured at all. I couldn't care less what the countless hordes of pro-studio posters have to say about "realism" and "believability"; the most faithful way to end the conflict with Dr. Doom in a first movie (or any other movie, really) that also leaves his future as a villain wide open for later films is to have him escape, specifically by having the "him" that gets caught turn out to be a robot. There's no excuse whatsoever for them cutting out his huge penchant and talent for robotics.

:wolverine

The FF learning that the captured Doctor Doom is a robot at the end would be a great twist at the end of the picture. :up: Maybe an early scene in the film could show Victor Von Doom building a semi-humanoid robot or even looking at ablueprint/holograph of a robot design.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm sure I mixed up my messages in that paragraph by blurring the issue of your response patterns with my more intense frustration over the countless comments from people I truly do consider to be shallow (based on the specific content of their respective posts, not based on some generalization) perpetually comparing "negative" posters against "postive" posters without offering anyspecific or valid arguments as to how one is better than the other. This is not how you've specifically expressed yourself, but it is how countless others have, and it sickens me. LightninStrikez happens to have very strong opinions against the handling of Dr. Doom in this movie, yet people have still held him up as an example of a "positive" poster who doesn't "whine" and "*****" about an allegedly minor aspect of the film such as Dr. Doom. This strikes me as ignorant, shallow and disrespectful on a level far worse than any break of forum ettiquette-- a pervasive disrepect for the intellects of people that choose to apply said intellect instead of merely "going with the flow." Despite my lapses in judgement, I evaluate both you and LightninStrikez in your respective totalities. I respect you both for your honesty and fairness. When people pretend that you're just some generalized ideal they can use to compare with a vague caracature of me or any other "negative" poster, I don't tolerate it. I don't tolerate it from people that define themselves as "positive" while offering nothing of value to the discussion, and I don't tolerate it from people like wetgorilla whom, on a bad day, might be predisposed to write you off as an airhead with no capacity for analytical thought.


So what do you propose we do about all of these "shallow" people Herr? We diehard Marvel/FF fans can only educate so much. As you know we're not in the business of making clones. One can only speak and act for himself and no one else. Here's my take on the situation:

What I've been seeing in the last several weeks is a concerted effort to cut down those whom the forum esteem as valuable posters. In other words, under the guise of getting people to "think for themselves" some (a few to be exact) have attacked, belittled, and slandered certain respected mainstays in this forum. It's like taking down a stoplight at an intersecton--such attempts only breed confusion, dissarray and distrust in what used to be, a solid friendly forum. And this has only been the case in recent weeks.

My question is, are such efforts to "break" vocal ones in this forum really designed to get people to "form their own opinions?" Or could it be that the majority have adopted a more positive view of the film and certain posters want to subvert that opinion--to disrupt it so as to bring their own thinking into play?

There are better ways to do accomplish that, without slamming those who are popular in this forum. As you mentioned, I am quite dissapointed with Movie Doom...yet you don't see me bashing those who accept it. It boils down to the way such statements are packaged and shipped.

So it saddens me to see certain members of this board bully those who either are naive, new, young or content by stripping them of their dignity. It angers me to see these same ones trying to overthrow friendships and bonds here simply because they cannot find their niche. And it dissapoints me that such behavior has yet to be banned.

I sometimes wonder--is it really about "Dr. Doom"?

[Saph]

I didn't mean to say the audience would have to wait until a later movie to find out. I simply meant waiting a few scenes in between the incapacitation and the revelation that it's a robot. I meant that could be the note on which the film ends, but possibly without the Four knowing what we know.

:wolverine
I never said that the Four ever found out, did I? Only the Latverian embassy (which Doom would one day rule) would know about the explosion at the airport. Or the fact the Doom they got was filled with Norton Antivirus programs and Doom Online connection. (-beep beep- Doom got mail!)

And I did say it would be the last scene in the movie. The scenes before it will show the Four being accepted as heroes, settling down with their new lives, whatever.

[Herr Logan]

The FF learning that the captured Doctor Doom is a robot at the end would be a great twist at the end of the picture. :up: Maybe an early scene in the film could show Victor Von Doom building a semi-humanoid robot or even looking at ablueprint/holograph of a robot design.

Yeah, that would be great. :up:

You know, if we had the real Dr. Doom from beginning to end, but I'll not digress in that direction for now. ;)

The next time Doom shows up (if he does), he should definitely have an army of robots at his command.

:wolverine

[Saph]

Yeah, that would be great. :up:

You know, if we had the real Dr. Doom from beginning to end, but I'll not digress in that direction for now. ;)

The next time Doom shows up (if he does), he should definitely have an army of robots at his command.

:wolverine
Yes, and so FF2 isn't just Fantastic Four-v-Doom Part 2, the robots would be duplicates of the FF, sent to America to commit public crimes, so that the gullible american public will lose trust in the FF.

It would call for some pretty fight scenes as well.

[portland2002]

Yes, and so FF2 isn't just Fantastic Four-v-Doom Part 2, the robots would be duplicates of the FF, sent to America to commit public crimes, so that the gullible american public will lose trust in the FF.

It would call for some pretty fight scenes as well.

That could work quite well in the sequel.

[Kmack]

Yes, and so FF2 isn't just Fantastic Four-v-Doom Part 2, the robots would be duplicates of the FF, sent to America to commit public crimes, so that the gullible american public will lose trust in the FF.

It would call for some pretty fight scenes as well.
I like that idea:up:

[portland2002]

If Fox ever is able to acquire the Hulk movie rights, I'd like to see this in a Hulk sequel.

http://hulkangry.com/images/wallpaper/comicbooks/hulk102/hulk144.jpg

[portland2002]

Although I certainly wouldn't want to see Doom as a giant hundreds of feet high, I feel this would be a nice costume design/upgrade in a future FF film.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/drdoom/images/secretarmor.jpg

[wobbly]

The FF learning that the captured Doctor Doom is a robot at the end would be a great twist at the end of the picture. :up: Maybe an early scene in the film could show Victor Von Doom building a semi-humanoid robot or even looking at ablueprint/holograph of a robot design.

Something along those lines could be good but I really doubt we will see that. So far the only sign that there might be robots (or 'doombots') of any kind in the movie have come from screencaps of the video game (Afaik, there are not any toys of any robots, which you'd think they would make if they were present in the movie).

Personally, and seeing as this Doom apparently revels in his mutation, I would prefer it if Victor was cured of the metal skin business in the finale but in his attempts to stop that process gets his face horribly disfigured then. That way at least by the end of the film we have an unpowered human Doom disfigured by his own hands. It's not a direct analogue to his comic origin, but it is a damn sight closer than anything else we have heard of so far.
Building himself hi-tech artificial armor in an attempt to emulate the power he held before is then workable in a sequel, especially if the writers have to foresight to reference that kind of technology in the first.

(btw- in the comics he did once hold the power cosmic of the Silver Surfer for a brief time and later did devise a means to regain that power artificially, but couldn't use it on himself as it was unstable and would kill him. In true Doom fashion though he did use it on a couple of others - Hauptman and Terrax)

[Saph]

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/drdoom/images/secretarmor.jpg
If Doom's comic book costume is too 'laughable' for the big screen, then that definitely would be. Honestly, considering that the armoured parts is actually Movie!Doom's skin, that costume would have more than a slight homosexual feel.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I can't see the pic of "homosexual" feelings.

[Saph]

I can't see the pic of "homosexual" feelings.
Think about it. The armour is his skin. In that case, he's wearing a green tanktop and green speedos.

-shudders-

EDIT: Wait, you mean you can't see it? Well, it's Doom's comic costume, take away the cape, gold buttons, turn the 'kilt' into speedos and you've got it.

[wobbly]

I can't see the pic of "homosexual" feelings.

Nor me, but the mention of hundreds of feet high suggests the secret war armor?

[Herr Logan]

So what do you propose we do about all of these "shallow" people Herr? We diehard Marvel/FF fans can only educate so much. As you know we're not in the business of making clones. One can only speak and act for himself and no one else. Here's my take on the situation:

What I've been seeing in the last several weeks is a concerted effort to cut down those whom the forum esteem as valuable posters. In other words, under the guise of getting people to "think for themselves" some (a few to be exact) have attacked, belittled, and slandered certain respected mainstays in this forum. It's like taking down a stoplight at an intersecton--such attempts only breed confusion, dissarray and distrust in what used to be, a solid friendly forum. And this has only been the case in recent weeks.

My question is, are such efforts to "break" vocal ones in this forum really designed to get people to "form their own opinions?" Or could it be that the majority have adopted a more positive view of the film and certain posters want to subvert that opinion--to disrupt it so as to bring their own thinking into play?

There are better ways to do accomplish that, without slamming those who are popular in this forum. As you mentioned, I am quite dissapointed with Movie Doom...yet you don't see me bashing those who accept it. It boils down to the way such statements are packaged and shipped.

So it saddens me to see certain members of this board bully those who either are naive, new, young or content by stripping them of their dignity. It angers me to see these same ones trying to overthrow friendships and bonds here simply because they cannot find their niche. And it dissapoints me that such behavior has yet to be banned.

I sometimes wonder--is it really about "Dr. Doom"?

Edit: Forget it. I'm sick of giving everyone ammunition.

:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

Think about it. The armour is his skin. In that case, he's wearing a green tanktop and green speedos.

-shudders-

EDIT: Wait, you mean you can't see it? Well, it's Doom's comic costume, take away the cape, gold buttons, turn the 'kilt' into speedos and you've got it.


*shudders too*

And no, I still can't see it.

[Saph]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Kyorca/doomarmour.bmp
Here it is.

[portland2002]

If Doom's comic book costume is too 'laughable' for the big screen, then that definitely would be. Honestly, considering that the armoured parts is actually Movie!Doom's skin, that costume would have more than a slight homosexual feel.

I don't see anything anything remotely like that. I think this costume could really work. It could be made of leather or even dark green metal. To me, it has a Vaderesque feel to it *puts of flame shield*. Of course I am aware Doom came first, my point is, to me it looks cool and could translate very well. And it's from Secret Wars, where Doom temporarily gained ultimate power.

[Lightning Strykez!]

People who merely accept Movie Doom are not and have not been subject to criticism or "bullying" from me. People who insist that I shut up and accept things the way they are instead of discussing alternatives that I feel would have been better get what they ask for. Make no mistake, Lightnin, there is no more "bullying" of people content with the movie by malcontents than there is in the reverse order. The fact is, when I first got in the habit of posting on the internet, my arguments denounced the studios, not the posters. Since then, I've been labeled "fanboy purist" and "whiner" and so forth countless times, and it is this kind of behavior that led me to decide to increase the amount of force used to push back. I do not come barrelling into threads created by content fans and start attacking them merely because they aren't complaining or whatever it is people think I've been doing. I fight fire with fire, and if the people who are defaming me and people who think like I do don't have the logic to back up their disgust and scorn, then I don't consider that an unfair fight-- I consider it a smaller hostile animal getting beaten by a bigger hostile animal because it decided to attack first.

There's no doubt that I've attacked people who weren't directly addressing me, because I feel it's all a part of the same vicious cycle. The same occurs when a new poster pops in and attacks a dissenter when the dissenter is already engaged in an argument that may have been started by someone else. Am I supposed to just keep silent when other people are being allowed to ignorantly insult people merely because they value the source material more than dishonest rumors perpetrated by the studios creating the products about which we're fighting? Nobody can tell me that I'm the one being unfair. If there's a misunderstanding and I went off on the wrong person or went too far, I'll gladly own up to it, because unlike many others, I'm not comfortable with being a hypocrite. I'm one of the most restrained people I've ever met, out of necessity, and so when people claim that I'm the one going overboard when there's hoardes of pro-studio fans describing "whining fanboys" as a bunch of pathetic virgins who live in their parents basement, it makes me sick.

People can say "that's the nature of the internet" all they want, and they can try to use ratios and numbers to justify why a large group of people is allowed to tear into a vocal minority, but that doesn't make it right. People who behave that way are largely cowards, even if they think they're being brave by standing up to the big bad fanboys that use big words and act angry. That's not even close to the far end of the spectrum when it comes to cowardice, but I like to see it get cut off before it progresses.
I've seen young teenagers start threads in the community asking for advice because they're depressed and flunking out of school met with merciless teasing and further persecution by pretty much every single poster who came rushing into the thread looking to make things worse. When I point out their cowardly and cruel behavior and invite them to gang up on a person who's also depressed and has troubles with school but have twice their !Q's, they tend to shut up, because they've got no argument to respond with and they're not full-blown sociopaths. That's an example of what happens of when the bullying majority is allowed to do as they please with no opposition.

Don't even think of telling me that the amount of conflict on these boards constitutes equal sides of the argument, and don't pretend that the "positive" side is any less nasty than the "negative" side. The fact that there are trolls and "Manspider"-types running around saying stupid things and annoying people does not excuse the conduct of people who attack dissenters of all types. And pretending to "respect" everyone's opinions doesn't constitute real respect, just like how when shallow people who claim to "love" all of humanity, that really just means their "love" is worthless and they make no distinctions. They fact that so many people play the "respect all opinions" card doesn't actually make these forums a place of universal agreement and civility. When Wetgorilla opened up his "20 Thing Going Wrong..." thread, I didn't see you trying to hold back the people that immediately attacked him in a far greater proportion than whatever they think he said that was so provocative. But in that very thread, when someone made generalizations about albafan specifically or out-of-line comments about Saph, did you see me just cheering them on? Every last wretched one of you is culpable for your own actions, no matter how much you hate me or respect me or how you feel about anyone else here, so don't pretend I'm the one leading some indiscriminate revolution just meant to piss people off.

:wolverine

Actually my post was not written with you in mind. ;)

But nevertheless...the difference between those two threads was stark. The original arrived with a substantial list. Since then, it's grown past 50 positives. The "Things Gone Wrong" asked for the fans here to create proof of things wrong with this film. There's a difference.

To illustrate: Having known you for a while I know you have a girlfriend. I'm assuming you care about her. Let's say you are totally, unequivocally in love with her and marriage is imminent. True, as someone who is imperfect, you can see she has flaws. Yet you can easily think of 20+ reasons you love her anyway. There's no doubt that despite these idiosyncrasies, you want this to work.

Would you appreciate it if I told you to think up 20 things wrong with her? How would you feel if every comment I made to you about the woman you loved was bent on changing your mind about her? What if you refused to cooperate with me and "brainstorm" up some negativity? Would you appreciate it then if I went on a conquest of belittling anything I could find remotely wrong with her to FORCE you to agree with me?

Well Herr, that is what some have done here. July 8th is imminent. Many of these fans are in love with this film. Despite the obvious flaws, they WANT it to succeed. They love the actors in them. And they are excited about the possibilities.

Therefore, when efforts are made to force all of these individuals to doubt themselves and eachother, to hate the very film they are full of anticipation for--such efforts are going to recieve a vicious backlash. It's unavoidable.

I understand that reality. And I know you do as well. And that is why neither of us held anyone "back" from thrashing that thread. Does it make the comments made there right? No. But neither was the motive of the thread in the first place. If it had been situated in the Catwoman boards, it would have recieved tremendous support, as the fans there hated that film with a passion.

This is not the Catwoman forum.

I've been here for quite a while. I've seen this forum weather many storms--especially back in April and July of 2004. I've also seen the members in this forum try to pull together and look for reasons of hope. No movie is going to be perfect. But when you dwell upon the negative you vandalize your own excitement for the film, and you handicap your ability to enjoy it. If one wants to do that--fine.

But why sabotage the enjoyment of others?




:ff:

[Saph]

I don't see anything anything remotely like that. I think this costume could really work. It could be made of leather or even dark green metal.
Leather would only increase the homosexual overtone. He'd be literally wearing a thong. And what is the point of Doom wearing armour if his skin is made of it?

To me, it has a Vaderesque feel to it *puts of flame shield*. Of course I am aware Doom came first, my point is, to me it looks cool and could translate very well. And it's from Secret Wars, where Doom temporarily gained ultimate power.
His 616 costume is way more Vaderesque than.. that. What you must consider is Doom is made of armour. That Doom is WEARING armour. Movie!Doom would essentially be wearing a tanktop and speedos.

[Saph]

Now this is what i'm talking about:
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/_gfx_/magazines/wizard/WZ20030924-skroce5.gif

[Herr Logan]

Actually my post was not written with you in mind. ;)

But nevertheless...the difference between those two threads was stark. The original arrived with a substantial list. Since then, it's grown past 50 positives. The "Things Gone Wrong" asked for the fans here to create proof of things wrong with this film. There's a difference.

To illustrate: Having known you for a while I know you have a girlfriend. I'm assuming you care about her. Let's say you are totally, unequivocally in love with her and marriage is imminent. True, as someone who is imperfect, you can see she has flaws. Yet you can easily think of 20+ reasons you love her anyway. There's no doubt that despite these idiosyncrasies, you want this to work.

Would you appreciate it if I told you to think up 20 things wrong with her? How would you feel if every comment I made to you about the woman you loved was bent on changing your mind about her? What if you refused to cooperate with me and "brainstorm" up some negativity? Would you appreciate it then if I went on a conquest of belittling anything I could find remotely wrong with her to FORCE you to agree with me?

Well Herr, that is what some have done here. July 8th is imminent. Many of these fans are in love with this film. Despite the obvious flaws, they WANT it to succeed. They love the actors in them. And they are excited about the possibilities.

Therefore, when efforts are made to force all of these individuals to doubt themselves and eachother, to hate the very film they are full of anticipation for--such efforts are going to recieve a vicious backlash. It's unavoidable.

I understand that reality. And I know you do as well. And that is why neither of us held anyone "back" from thrashing that thread. Does it make the comments made there right? No. But neither was the motive of the thread in the first place. If it had been situated in the Catwoman boards, it would have recieved tremendous support, as the fans there hated that film with a passion.

This is not the Catwoman forum.

I've been here for quite a while. I've seen this forum weather many storms--especially back in April and July of 2004. I've also seen the members in this forum try to pull together and look for reasons of hope. At this time, there are more good things going in favor of the film than negative in most people's opinion here. No movie is going to be perfect. But when you dwell upon the negative you vandalize your own excitement for the film, and you handicap your ability to enjoy it. If one wants to do that--fine.

But why sabotage the enjoyment of others?




:ff:

Don't compare my girlfriend to a big-budget summer movie, Lightnin. Don't compare anyone's girlfriend like that, but especially not mine.

You can compare her to a classic comic book, but only a really, really good one. :o

Seriously, though, I think it's pretty cheap to compare an adapted work of fiction to a human being that has given someone else a valid reason for living.
You're not going to marry this movie, Lightnin. This movie is going to service you for money, as well as everyone else who can pay. It has no feelings, and anyone who loves it as much as I love my woman has problems worse than any I ever had or ever will have.

If Wetgorilla's intention with his thread was to get people to strain themselves to think of flaws in the film, that's his deal. All by myself, I could have come up with at least 50 off the top of my head, but since I'm an overly meticulous and exacting person in a lot of ways, I didn't want to give someone an excuse to use my argument against me just because I have trouble deciding how much information constitutes one "thing," since I can't divide any one big flaw in this movie into several little ones. Regardless, it is not my intention to force people to dislike anything. I respond to statements of opinion (factual statements, even if they aren't proven facts) and counter-attack when people attack others unfairly. If you like the movie, great. Seriously, I don't care. I just don't want to hear any nonsense about how it's "better" or it was the right thing to do, changing the original characters so drastically. Those kinds of statements can-- and deserve to be-- argued, so I argue them. I don't care in the least that you personally will like this movie, Lightnin. You've done something quite unique in that you've honestly pointed out a huge flaw in the movie we're discussing and simply like the whole of it anyway. Too many people are ignorant and unintelligent enough to think that they need to justify everything they like and make it seem perfect. These people are literally worthless to me. Intelligence counts more than passion as far as I see it, and if there's the presence of both, great. Honesty is extremely important to me, so if people speak untruths or just say things about which the veracity is unimportant to them, they get what they deserve when someone criticizes them. If people are honest and logical, there's nothing to argue.

If you continue to believe that I'm actually out to make other people hate movies, then that's a failing in you. I've made myself at least clear enough to get that point across.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Leather would only increase the homosexual overtone. He'd be literally wearing a thong. And what is the point of Doom wearing armour if his skin is made of it?


His 616 costume is way more Vaderesque than.. that. What you must consider is Doom is made of armour. That Doom is WEARING armour. Movie!Doom would essentially be wearing a tanktop and speedos.

You're not a homophobe, are you?

I wouldn't want him wearing that kind of costume either, but for reasons other than an unreasonable fear or hatred of an irrelevant label.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Now this is what i'm talking about:
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/_gfx_/magazines/wizard/WZ20030924-skroce5.gif

Nice. :up:

:wolverine

[Kmack]

Now this is what i'm talking about:
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/_gfx_/magazines/wizard/WZ20030924-skroce5.gif
This is what movie Doom should look like imo:doom::up:

[Hunter Rider]

Going off what has been said in here by AF,Lightnin and Herr i would just like to say this.I have been guilty of jumping on negative posters and have not done it in a while.I do not have the knowledge of Doom to argue the points made so i mainly stay out of here.From what i have seen of the F4 themselves i feel that they have been represented well.Now my point in here is this,I have tried to change my take on this whole situation,I have been fairly quiet the last few weeks as this place has become a complete warzone and i really think there is only one solution,Respect.If someone says as herr and O9 and wetgorrilla have time and again that the source material has not been translated to screen acurately i can't argue, it hasnt.The thing that sickens me is the all round complete lack of human respect from both sides.If someone isnt happy i don't want to change their minds,we are all adults here and surely have more in life than this movie or this board ?Yet it seems that personal attacks are the solution to everything,There are those who think everything is hunky dory and blast the naysayers with insults such as "purist" and "sad loser" for their staunch devotion to the source material,it must seem like being attacked by a phsycotic version of the waltons.On the other hand the rebuke is insults of "sheep" and "coward" to name 2 whith overiding feeling that the purist vision seems to act like the nazi's as if they are the master race superior to those that are accepting the changes.My view is this i am not changing anyones mind and i dont want to they have the right to be upset and that is fine but i also have the right to look at what i percieve as the good things in this movie without being labled by anyone.Lets all try to be respectul human beings first and posters second.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Don't compare my girlfriend to a big-budget summer movie, Lightnin. Don't compare anyone's girlfriend like that, but especially not mine.

You can compare her to a classic comic book, but only a really, really good one. :o

Seriously, though, I think it's pretty cheap to compare an adapted work of fiction to a human being that has given someone else a valid reason for living.
You're not going to marry this movie, Lightnin. This movie is going to service you for money, as well as everyone else who can pay. It has no feelings, and anyone who loves it as much as I love my woman has problems worse than any I ever had or ever will have.

If Wetgorilla's intention with his thread was to get people to strain themselves to think of flaws in the film, that's his deal. All by myself, I could have come up with at least 50 off the top of my head, but since I'm an overly meticulous and exacting person in a lot of ways, I didn't want to give someone an excuse to use my argument against me just because I have trouble deciding how much information constitutes one "thing," since I can't divide any one big flaw in this movie into several little ones. Regardless, it is not my intention to force people to dislike anything. I respond to statements of opinion (factual statements, even if they aren't proven facts) and counter-attack when people attack others unfairly. If you like the movie, great. Seriously, I don't care. I just don't want to hear any nonsense about how it's "better" or it was the right thing to do, changing the original characters so drastically. Those kinds of statements can-- and deserve to be-- argued, so I argue them. I don't care in the least that you personally will like this movie, Lightnin. You've done something quite unique in that you've honestly pointed out a huge flaw in the movie we're discussing and simply like the whole of it anyway. Too many people are ignorant and unintelligent enough to think that they need to justify everything they like and make it seem perfect. These people are literally worthless to me. Intelligence counts more than passion as far as I see it, and if there's the presence of both, great. Honesty is extremely important to me, so if people speak untruths or just say things about which the veracity is unimportant to them, they get what they deserve when someone criticizes them. If people are honest and logical, there's nothing to argue.

If you continue to believe that I'm actually out to make other people hate movies, then that's a failing in you. I've made myself at least clear enough to get that point across.

:wolverine

No, I don't think you are out to make people hate movies. We've discussed and aligned our intellectual perspectives on other films outside of this forum, so I know full well where you're coming from beyond Fantastic Four.

As far as comparing your girlfriend to the film itself--the essence of the illustration was symbolic--not to be taken literrally. That was not meant to be offensive to you personally. Besides, I seriously doubt anyone loves this film as much as their spouse. :cool:

However, it's the principal of the story that carries my point.

In other words, the "love" is to be equated with devotion. And devotion can be applied to anything you care deeply about. It could be a friend, a car, a career, a classic comic book--whatever. This film has devoted fans.

And when such devoted fanboys/girls and others are constantly being coerced to hate something they've already chosen to like--there's going to be a bristling effect. People don't like being manipulated. And they don't like others telling them that they are stupid or less than human for finding something attractive. If folks minds are made up that the film has more going for it than against it--why is that a crime? Does one have to drum up an equally numbered bulleted list of negatives and positives to qualify as a "real" balanced fan?

Who are we trying to prove something to here???

[Herr Logan]

Going off what has been said in here by AF,Lightnin and Herr i would just like to say this.I have been guilty of jumping on negative posters and have not done it in a while.I do not have the knowledge of Doom to argue the points made so i mainly stay out of here.From what i have seen of the F4 themselves i feel that they have been represented well.Now my point in here is this,I have tried to change my take on this whole situation,I have been fairly quiet the last few weeks as this place has become a complete warzone and i really think there is only one solution,Respect.If someone says as herr and O9 and wetgorrilla have time and again that the source material has not been translated to screen acurately i can't argue, it hasnt.The thing that sickens me is the all round complete lack of human respect from both sides.If someone isnt happy i don't want to change their minds,we are all adults here and surely have more in life than this movie or this board ?Yet it seems that personal attacks are the solution to everything,There are those who think everything is hunky dory and blast the naysayers with insults such as "purist" and "sad loser" for their staunch devotion to the source material,it must seem like being attacked by a phsycotic version of the waltons.On the other hand the rebuke is insults of "sheep" and "coward" to name 2 whith overiding feeling that the purist vision seems to act like the nazi's as if they are the master race superior to those that are accepting the changes.My view is this i am not changing anyones mind and i dont want to they have the right to be upset and that is fine but i also have the right to look at what i percieve as the good things in this movie without being labled by anyone.Lets all try to be respectul human beings first and posters second.

Sounds good to me. :up:

:wolverine

[Head>On<Collider]

Me thinks you all are on fire with good points today. All of you....

Doom would be proud.

[Herr Logan]

No, I don't think you are out to make people hate movies. We've discussed and aligned our intellectual perspectives on other films outside of this forum, so I know full well where you're coming from beyond Fantastic Four.

As far as comparing your girlfriend to the film itself--the essence of the illustration was symbolic--not to be taken literrally. That was not meant to be offensive to you personally. Besides, I seriously doubt anyone loves this film as much as their spouse. :cool:

However, it's the principal of the story that carries my point.

In other words, the "love" is to be equated with devotion. And devotion can be applied to anything you care deeply about. It could be a friend, a car, a career, a classic comic book--whatever. This film has devoted fans.

And when such devoted fanboys/girls and others are constantly being coerced to hate something they've already chosen to like--there's going to be a bristling effect. People don't like being manipulated. And they don't like others telling them that they are stupid or less than human for finding something attractive. If folks minds are made up that the film has more going for it than against it--why is that a crime? Does one have to drum up an equally numbered bulleted list of negatives and positives to qualify as a "real" balanced fan?

Who are we trying to prove something to here???

Fair enough. Just as long as it's clear to everyone that it's equally reprehensible to attempt to bully and coerce discontent fans into liking and accepting a movie. I can easily understand how if I were coerce someone else into not liking a movie I felt had unforgivable flaws in it that could have been avoided, that could-- on a much broader scale-- serve the goal of bettering the films. However, because it's unshakably obvious to me that it's illogical to argue attitudes or force a feeling, I can't bring myself to do something like that in a forum where we've got only argument and no truly strong emotional attachments to the participants. I've never intentionally attempted to make anyone change their attitudes by using passion, but I have and will continue to urge people to reconsider their opinions by using information. Again, people need to understand the difference between opinions and preferences.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Sounds good to me. :up:

:wolverine

Then i am up for a fresh start:up: and now i will leave this thread to let it get back to matters Doom

[Herr Logan]

Then i am up for a fresh start:up: and now i will leave this thread to let it get back to matters Doom

What? You don't want to stay and learn about the glory that is Doom?!

Heh. Just kiddin'. Go on and call for a Medivac. This warzone isn't cleaned up yet, I suppose.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Me thinks you all are on fire with good points today. All of you....

Doom would be proud.

Are you sure?

I'm not a regular reader of the Fantastic Four or well-versed on even half of Doom's appearances in the Marvel Universe, but he's appeared in other characters' books and the only time I've seen Doom own up to his wrongs and make peace, it turned out it was a robot and Doom blew it up for being such an embarassment.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

What? You don't want to stay and learn about the glory that is Doom?!

Heh. Just kiddin'. Go on and call for a Medivac. This warzone isn't cleaned up yet, I suppose.

:wolverine

lol oh i'll be reading especially when Iron Maiden opens up the knowledge vaults and talks classic doom,just i dont have anything to add to what the Doom veterans are saying as i admitted earlier my own knowledge is being built through the reading of scriptures if you will as opposed to jumping in half cocked

[Lightning Strykez!]

Fair enough. Just as long as it's clear to everyone that it's equally reprehensible to attempt to bully and coerce discontent fans into liking and accepting a movie. I can easily understand how if I were coerce someone else into not liking a movie I felt had unforgivable flaws in it that could have been avoided, that could-- on a much broader scale-- serve the goal of bettering the films. However, because it's unshakably obvious to me that it's illogical to argue attitudes or force a feeling, I can't bring myself to do something like that in a forum where we've got only argument and no truly strong emotional attachments to the participants. I've never intentionally attempted to make anyone change their attitudes by using passion, but I have and will continue to urge people to reconsider their opinions by using information. Again, people need to understand the difference between opinions and preferences.

:wolverine

This is true, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But like I said before Herr--it's not what's in the parcel...it's the packaging and delivery of it.

To illustrate: if I made a delicious, mouthwatering pizza with all the trimmings, and served it to you on the lid of a maggot-covered garbage can, would you eat it? Not likely.

Likewise, in of themselves, opinions that aren't in favor of this film are not wrong, and can be appreciated better when they are served tactfully. It's all in the approach.

In contrast, some have made a valiant effort to wreck the forum profile of our more vocal posters in recent weeks. It's gotten so pathetic that even the real-life occupations of some of these people have been cheaply mocked. And even now I sense there might be some here who's feelings have been hurt recently. But such slander doesn't add gravity to the film-related opinions these posters make. It simply discredits them as worthy of respect...and if they don't check their approach they'll hang themselves in time...one way or another.

It's about etiquette and respect. And if both sides of the equations--both collectively and especially individually--here can master this art, we will once again attain the peace that formerly existed in this forum.

Until then, for the first time we've stooped to the stupidity found in some of our sister forums (as C. Lee's sticky has made clear). And it's a damn shame.

[Herr Logan]

lol oh i'll be reading especially when Iron Maiden opens up the knowledge vaults and talks classic doom,just i dont have anything to add to what the Doom veterans are saying as i admitted earlier my own knowledge is being built through the reading of scriptures if you will as opposed to jumping in half cocked

Yeah, I was just joking with you. I respect that you don't want to comment without knowing about the subject. I certainly don't know all the details, but I'm pretty well-read on certain themes and have seen a good number of stories involving Doom.
Iron Maiden is definitely the best source of Doom-knowledge I've seen around here.

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

So what do you propose we do about all of these "shallow" people Herr? We diehard Marvel/FF fans can only educate so much. As you know we're not in the business of making clones. One can only speak and act for himself and no one else. Here's my take on the situation:

What I've been seeing in the last several weeks is a concerted effort to cut down those whom the forum esteem as valuable posters. In other words, under the guise of getting people to "think for themselves" some (a few to be exact) have attacked, belittled, and slandered certain respected mainstays in this forum. It's like taking down a stoplight at an intersecton--such attempts only breed confusion, dissarray and distrust in what used to be, a solid friendly forum. And this has only been the case in recent weeks.

My question is, are such efforts to "break" vocal ones in this forum really designed to get people to "form their own opinions?" Or could it be that the majority have adopted a more positive view of the film and certain posters want to subvert that opinion--to disrupt it so as to bring their own thinking into play?

There are better ways to do accomplish that, without slamming those who are popular in this forum. As you mentioned, I am quite dissapointed with Movie Doom...yet you don't see me bashing those who accept it. It boils down to the way such statements are packaged and shipped.

So it saddens me to see certain members of this board bully those who either are naive, new, young or content by stripping them of their dignity. It angers me to see these same ones trying to overthrow friendships and bonds here simply because they cannot find their niche. And it dissapoints me that such behavior has yet to be banned.

I sometimes wonder--is it really about "Dr. Doom"?

This kind of subversive commentaries are what keeps that marquee above your door advertising one thing and what's really on display inside two different things. Do you honestly think by not mentioning who you've directed this to that others and myself can't see you're aiming this at me?

What I've been seeing in the last several weeks is a concerted effort to cut down those whom the forum esteem as valuable posters. In other words, under the guise of getting people to "think for themselves"

Hell, this second paragraph was posted against me last month almost verbatim. Also, you're lifting a line and quoting directly from a post I placed this weekend. You haven't changed much except you weren't as undermining as you apparently are here. You're actions with this post is an indication of your true opportunistic nature. Because some have chosen to apologize to others, you've interpreted that as weakness and then decided to use that to make a play against me. Can't you see that's what these people were saying is exactly what you're doing.

Dude, you can't spearhead a project to clean-up this forum when you're playing a major part in the pollution of it. That's one reason I didn't say anything after Albafan's posting - I knew I was as guilty as you are.

So, go and make friends at this point. Stop trying to create allies!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, I was just joking with you. I respect that you don't want to comment without knowing about the subject. I certainly don't know all the details, but I'm pretty well-read on certain themes and have seen a good number of stories involving Doom.
Iron Maiden is definitely the best source of Doom-knowledge I've seen around here.

:wolverine

Ive been looking into buying some Doom titles or F4 titles with best Doom stories in as suggested by Iron Maiden on another thread,but i have to order through amazon as i have no local comic shop which means anything from a 3 week to 3 month wait:(

[Gratticus]

yeah let's all get along. party at my place, bring the point hats and NOW 16 cd.

[Lightning Strykez!]

This kind of subversive commentaries are what keeps that marquee above your door advertising one thing and what's really on display inside two different things. Do you honestly think by not mentioning who you've directed this to that others and myself can't see you're aiming this at me?



Hell, this second paragraph was posted against me last month almost verbatim. Also, you're lifting a line and quoting directly from a post I placed this weekend. You haven't changed much except you weren't as undermining as you apparently are here. You're actions with this post is an indication of your true opportunistic nature. Because some have chosen to apologize to others, you've interpreted that as weakness and then decided to that to make a play against me. Can't you see that's what these people were saying is exactly what you're doing.

Dude, you can't spearhead a project to clean-up this forum when you're playing a major part in the pollution of it. That's one reason I didn't say anything after Albafan's posting - I knew I was as guilty as you are.

So, go and make friends at this point. Stop trying to create allies!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

:eek: OMFG!!! What a cruel, cruel world this place is to gang up on you Wetgorilla!!!

:rolleyes:








;)

Let's be frank here for a moment, shall we?

To my knowledge I didn't mention your name once in any of my recent posts in this thread. And I certainly have not quoted you in any way, shape or form. I said, "Some" which could refer to many, several, a few, or even one. With a view to preserving people's dignity I took pains not to cast that light on anyone by name, but rather to make a broad statement that can be applicable to all of us.

However, if you feel the glass slipper specifically fits you for some reason...well, that's your perrogative.

[Herr Logan]

Ive been looking into buying some Doom titles or F4 titles with best Doom stories in as suggested by Iron Maiden on another thread,but i have to order through amazon as i have no local comic shop which means anything from a 3 week to 3 month wait:(

No local comic book stores? Where do you live, and why haven't you moved? :eek:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

No local comic book stores? Where do you live, and why haven't you moved? :eek:

:wolverine

Im in a small town called sunderland in the Uk and have a collection of Batman TPB's(my only option) that the Hulk couldnt lift

[Herr Logan]

Im in a small town called sunderland in the Uk and have a collection of Batman TPB's(my only option) that the Hulk couldnt lift

Ah. I didn't know you were in the UK.

Or maybe I just forgot, since we haven't talked in a long time and I'm very forgetful. :o

A good way to catch up on Marvel comics is through the "Essential" collections. I've got several of "The Amazing Spider-Man" and "The Uncanny X-Men." Good stuff. Haven't gotten any with the Fantastic Four yet, though.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Ah. I didn't know you were in the UK.

Or maybe I just forgot, since we haven't talked in a long time and I'm very forgetful. :o

A good way to catch up on Marvel comics is through the "Essential" collections. I've got several of "The Amazing Spider-Man" and "The Uncanny X-Men." Good stuff. Haven't gotten any with the Fantastic Four yet, though.

:wolverine

see thats another of my problems my shop only stocks the ultimate stuff so again im left with erratic internet ordering,i will try those you suggested though i couldnt get into USM at all

[Lightning Strykez!]

yeah let's all get along. party at my place, bring the point hats and NOW 16 cd.

Sweet.

And I've got the Coronas and lemon lime.

Grat did you by chance rent that certain movie we were talking about? hint hint?

;)

[wobbly]

see thats another of my problems my shop only stocks the ultimate stuff so again im left with erratic internet ordering,i will try those you suggested though i couldnt get into USM at all

Yeah, its not easy to pick up US comics anymore in the UK. Used to be able to buy them from most Newsagents anywhere but these days it's either speciality shops or online ordering, both of which make them comparatively more expensive than they used to be. Sucks :(

[Gratticus]

Sweet.

And I've got the Coronas and lemon lime.

Grat did you by chance rent that certain movie we were talking about? hint hint?

;)

i'm not old enough to drink.

and those porno vids? no, becuase i just d/led some better ones. I'll burn you a dvd.

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, its not easy to pick up US comics anymore in the UK. Used to be able to buy them from most Newsagents anywhere but these days it's either speciality shops or online ordering, both of which make them comparatively more expensive than they used to be. Sucks :(

yeah and you are never sure how long they will take to arrive,im still waiting for a book i orderd 4 months ago

[Lightning Strykez!]

i'm not old enough to drink.

and those porno vids? no, becuase i just d/led some better ones. I'll burn you a dvd.


:eek:

:rolleyes:

What...evur.



:D :down

[Herr Logan]

see thats another of my problems my shop only stocks the ultimate stuff so again im left with erratic internet ordering,i will try those you suggested though i couldnt get into USM at all

Feh. Stupid "Ultimate" fad...

Truth is, I kind of enjoy reading "Ultimate Fantastic Four" when Brian Michael Bendis isn't writing it, but I would never tolerate them replacing the real characters with the Ultimate versions, even in a movie. Actually, the "Doom" story sucked. I much prefer the current one. I still won't pay for it, though. That's another benefit of having comic stores around-- some comics you can read for free. :cool:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Feh. Stupid "Ultimate" fad...

Truth is, I kind of enjoy reading "Ultimate Fantastic Four" when Brian Michael Bendis isn't writing it, but I would never tolerate them replacing the real characters with the Ultimate versions, even in a movie. Actually, the "Doom" story sucked. I much prefer the current one. I still won't pay for it, though. That's another benefit of having comic stores around-- some comics you can read for free. :cool:

:wolverine

Good tactic:up: I have to be selective in my choices as the prices are about $30+ Us dollars for one title more if its hardback.Never read UFF was put off by reviews and pages i saw from them plus USM.I liked someUX-men but have only bought about 3 books as some of the redesigns on Iceman and Collosuss and storm feel a bit "teen" for my tastes

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I never understood the need to bastardize perfectly good characters so that teen and pre-teen "O.C." fans could read the FF. It truly sickens me. Just my crusty old opinion.

[Kmack]

I like the Ultimate universe, but it will never replace the classic Marvel universe:up:

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I like the Ultimate universe, but it will never replace the classic Marvel universe:up:
I hope so. Joey Q worries me sometimes with his pursuit of cash over good storytelling approach.

[stretcho]

Me too. But I worry that they don't respect the original universe enough because of the Ultimate success.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yes, it's precisely that lack of respect coupled with their own selfish desires to get people to think of them rather than "THE MAN" when considering creators.

[stretcho]

Go on Doom! Make em wish they heard the name...Doom. Wait, they probly already heard that name a bunch.

[Herr Logan]

Good tactic:up: I have to be selective in my choices as the prices are about $30+ Us dollars for one title more if its hardback.Never read UFF was put off by reviews and pages i saw from them plus USM.I liked someUX-men but have only bought about 3 books as some of the redesigns on Iceman and Collosuss and storm feel a bit "teen" for my tastes

"Teen" indeed. Feh.

You want to know what's even worse? Those teeny-bopper designs were used in the video game "X-Men Legends," even though most of the character were more or less portrayed accurately. While not a perfect game, it was the closest thing to a real team-action X-Men game to date, and because it was a total blend of classic, Ultimate and movie mythos, it all gave me a truly horrible vision of what's to come in the comics. As for the characters you mentioned, Storm was a drone with practically no personality (kinda like in the movies) and Iceman was pretty much exactly like in "Ultimate," with not a single line that wasn't embarrassing. They all got the Ultimate makeover. You beat the game, you get alternate costumes for almost everyone, but not everyone gets to wear a decent costume even then.

The reason this is an issue for me is because it now makes four completely separate media in which the X-Men are featured (comics, TV, movies, video games), and they've been given crappy makeovers in each. I'm so tired of this "modern" revamp nonsense. I wish they'd concentrate on quality action and quality storytelling and stop relying on cheap novelty tactics to sell their products.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Go on Doom! Make em wish they heard the name...Doom. Wait, they probly already heard that name a bunch.

Heh! :D

:wolverine

[Sardaukar]

The very concept behind the Ultimate universe is flawed, imo, at least in the long term.

Sure, it's a good series for new readers to jump on to at first.

But as more and more issues are released, it is inevitable that it's going to become immersed in continuity almost as much as 616.

Soon, the main purpose behind the Ultimate books will be gone.

The new readers will stop coming in droves.

And it'll be "just another" FF series.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

But it can't be just another FF series, because it has NOTHING to do with the actual FF!

[Sardaukar]

Therein lies the problem.

The incongruities between the two different continuities will result in reader confusion and something will have to be done about it.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

And therein lies my fear of what that "something" may be.

[Herr Logan]

Oddly enough, I occasionally find myself enjoying seeing these revisioning of the Marvel Universe in Ultimate titles. Not so much that I'd ever want to see any of it replace the real Marvel Universe or even take its place in movies, but just on a literary basis, I find it interesting. This is mostly true with "Ultimate X-Men" and now "Ultimate Fantastic Four."
I used to think "Ultimate Spider-Man" was a decent read, especially with all the crap they've been doing with the real Spider-Man in the last few years, but at this point, I think it's the least interesting and worst written Ultimate title.
I think "The Ultimates" is decently written, and I enjoy reading it sometimes, but if I'm going to read about gritty superheroes, I want them to be original, not based so closely on existing heroes that are traditionally more "pure" than that.

To reiterate, it's not so much the content of the Ultimate universe that bothers me as much as it is what it represents.
:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

:eek: OMFG!!! What a cruel, cruel world this place is to gang up on you Wetgorilla!!!

Let's be frank here for a moment, shall we?

To my knowledge I didn't mention your name once in any of my recent posts in this thread. And I certainly have not quoted you in any way, shape or form. I said, "Some" which could refer to many, several, a few, or even one. With a view to preserving people's dignity I took pains not to cast that light on anyone by name, but rather to make a broad statement that can be applicable to all of us.

However, if you feel the glass slipper specifically fits you for some reason...well, that's your perrogative.

Apparently, the only thing transparent here is your ill-disguised motives. If you weren't such a callow little man, I'd entertain myself a bit more with you (but I've got Doom and this movie to discuss). I can't do anything more to you than you've already done to yourself with your last posting.

'nuff said

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

Yeah, its not easy to pick up US comics anymore in the UK. Used to be able to buy them from most Newsagents anywhere but these days it's either speciality shops or online ordering, both of which make them comparatively more expensive than they used to be. Sucks :(

Have you tried eBay yet? I've ordered almost two hundred comics this past year alone and have found it to be the largest and best priced source available.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

I think if Marvel is one day sold it might have a chance of flushing out all these revisionary concepts and return to the classic method for telling a story. Like all fads this one will run its course and something completely opposite will emerge/reemerge.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

"Teen" indeed. Feh.

You want to know what's even worse? Those teeny-bopper designs were used in the video game "X-Men Legends," even though most of the character were more or less portrayed accurately. While not a perfect game, it was the closest thing to a real team-action X-Men game to date, and because it was a total blend of classic, Ultimate and movie mythos, it all gave me a truly horrible vision of what's to come in the comics. As for the characters you mentioned, Storm was a drone with practically no personality (kinda like in the movies) and Iceman was pretty much exactly like in "Ultimate," with not a single line that wasn't embarrassing. They all got the Ultimate makeover. You beat the game, you get alternate costumes for almost everyone, but not everyone gets to wear a decent costume even then.

The reason this is an issue for me is because it now makes four completely separate media in which the X-Men are featured (comics, TV, movies, video games), and they've been given crappy makeovers in each. I'm so tired of this "modern" revamp nonsense. I wish they'd concentrate on quality action and quality storytelling and stop relying on cheap novelty tactics to sell their products.

:wolverine

well ive never played the game you metioned but we agree on this, the turning of the X Men into dawsons creek with powers is a bad thing.To turn this topic back to Doom i found this pic.Sorry if its been posted before but i thought it was a hell of a pic.Looks to me to be from the story where Doom stole the power cosmic.

http://img240.exs.cx/img240/5970/ds0gc.png

[Iron Maiden]

I am not sure I've seen that picture before.... do you think it's from a trading card set? Anyway, here is the other picture you asked about HR. It was from an online promo image from the Doom limited series that took place while he was still exiled on the Heroes Reborn version of Earth.


http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/doom1.jpg

[Hunter Rider]

Thanks! IM:up:what did you think of those stories ? As for my pic ,well i found it googleing Doom,I read about a story where Doom manipulated SS and stole the power cosmic and thought it might be from that

[Lightning Strykez!]

http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/doom1.jpg


This artwork is by Drew Struzman I believe. From what I hear Fox is indeed going after him to do the final poster artwork for Fantastic Four.

[Head>On<Collider]

Are you sure?

I'm not a regular reader of the Fantastic Four or well-versed on even half of Doom's appearances in the Marvel Universe, but he's appeared in other characters' books and the only time I've seen Doom own up to his wrongs and make peace, it turned out it was a robot and Doom blew it up for being such an embarassment.

:wolverineNo. Not really. I was just taking a trip down memory lane to the good ol' "Mark is a friendly guy" days ;)
Actually, there are things about this movie that I will find enjoyable. My main nausea here is Dr Doom's portrayal in this movie and that's the jist of it. Everyone else talking here already knows where I stand on it all and to go on with it any further with the same people would be like beating a dead stick unless I'm discussing it with new arrivers, or between critics and comic purists who, let's face it, are open to discuss it with people like you and I who see it this way.... or something. I hope that made sense.

[Iron Maiden]

This artwork is by Drew Struzman I believe. From what I hear Fox is indeed going after him to do the final poster artwork for Fantastic Four.

I have to correct you on that cover... It's Leonardo Manco and he's Argentinian I believe. The other Doom/Surfer image I will have to look up. Maybe that's the Doombot that hassled the Surfer in his own mag (around issue 108??)

http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Lightning Strykez!]

I have to correct you on that cover... It's Leonardo Manco and he's Argentinian I believe. The other Doom/Surfer image I will have to look up. Maybe that's the Doombot that hassled the Surfer in his own mag (around issue 108??)

http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif



My mistake...his work is very similar in style to Drew's (shown below)

http://www.theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/pics/drew-episode1.jpg

Drew Struzan ^

http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/doom1.jpg

[Iron Maiden]

My mistake...his work is very similar in style to Drew's (shown below)

http://www.theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/pics/drew-episode1.jpg

Drew Struzan ^

http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/doom1.jpg


Wow.....that's eerily close. I wonder which came first? I think this cover comes from around 1999 or 2000.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wow.....that's eerily close. I wonder which came first? I think this cover comes from around 1999 or 2000.

Actually I think Star Wars: Phantom Menace dropped around May 1999. But at any rate, Drew did all of the posters for the old Star Trek movies (with Kirk's crew), the entire Indiana Jones run, the entire Star Wars film series and many other franchises.

He's been doing epic movie posters since the 70's. I would love to see what he does for Fantastic Four if Fox can secure him.

[Iron Maiden]

Actually I think Star Wars: Phantom Menace dropped around May 1999. But at any rate, Drew did all of the posters for the old Star Trek movies (with Kirk's crew), the entire Indiana Jones run, the entire Star Wars film series and many other franchises.

He's been doing epic movie posters since the 70's. I would love to see what he does for Fantastic Four if Fox can secure him.

I didn't know Drew did the Star Trek Movies. I hope they do come up with some alternate promo art pretty soon. That Premiere magazine picture you posted with the Thing eating pancakes with Victor (you know that never happened in the comics :D ) just tells me there are more production stills out there. I know there will be a "making of" book coming out in a couple of months so I guess they want us to pay for 'em.


You are probably too young to remember, but in the orginal Star Trek's first season, NBC had commissioned an artist to do poster-style art for all of their line-up. The Star Trek one was also used on the first paperback adaptation of the TV scripts.

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/JAMES%20BLISH%20STAR%20TREK%20PAGE.htm

[Herr Logan]

No. Not really. I was just taking a trip down memory lane to the good ol' "Mark is a friendly guy" days ;)
Actually, there are things about this movie that I will find enjoyable. My main nausea here is Dr Doom's portrayal in this movie and that's the jist of it. Everyone else talking here already knows where I stand on it all and to go on with it any further with the same people would be like beating a dead stick unless I'm discussing it with new arrivers, or between critics and comic purists who, let's face it, are open to discuss it with people like you and I who see it this way.... or something. I hope that made sense.

There's always next time. :)

:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

I didn't know Drew did the Star Trek Movies. I hope they do come up with some alternate promo art pretty soon. That Premiere magazine picture you posted with the Thing eating pancakes with Victor (you know that never happened in the comics :D ) just tells me there are more production stills out there. I know there will be a "making of" book coming out in a couple of months so I guess they want us to pay for 'em.


You are probably too young to remember, but in the orginal Star Trek's first season, NBC had commissioned an artist to do poster-style art for all of their line-up. The Star Trek one was also used on the first paperback adaptation of the TV scripts.

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/JAMES%20BLISH%20STAR%20TREK%20PAGE.htm

You mean Doom and Thing meeting in a bistro over pancakes, or Ben's love of flapjacks? I couldn't recall a time when Victor and Ben just "chummed" up at the International House Of Pancakes in the comics. :D But it's nice to see that they retained Ben's appetite for such things in the film. In the original Frost draft there was a scene where Susan was flipping pancakes in the air with the help of small flat forcefields, but I don't know if that made the final cut.

As far as the Star Trek art--thanks for the link. ;) Yeah I don't remember it as it happened per se, but I remember seeing similar collected artwork laying around my Dad's house--he was a major, major Trekkie. I also know my mom made me take a metal lunch box with similar-looking drawings on it to school--that sucked. I wanted to be cool. :(

Besides, plastic lunch boxes were starting to come out, and I wanted to be hip.

[wetgorilla]

This interview was given to Now Playing Magazine and written by Scott Collura. I thought it was an interesting, but very worn and predictable, conversation. I posted my thoughts on Simon's interview along with some focused excerpts.

Fantastic Four screenwriter Simon Kinberg is hinting at what might be in a possible sequel: "[W]hat is interesting is that we were talking about that when we working on the first movie, and we thought about the franchise as a saga," he told Now Playing Magazine. "We thought, 'Where does this saga go after the first movie?' And you will see that it is not just an origin story of the Fantastic Four; it is also an origin story of Dr. Doom, and it is not until fairly late in the first movie [that] he fully becomes Dr. Doom. And there is a lot of space for him to grow in futures films, and I am sure they will want to bring in other villains because all of these franchises do, but I have a feeling he'll be to Fantastic Four what Magneto is to X-Men."

I have a feeling?? Of course Dr. Doom has a similar relationship with the Fantastic Four as that of the Magneto/X-Men relationship. Dr. Doom is the arch-enemy of the Fantastic Four and Simon appears to recently be learning this?

Simon appears to be implying Doom will have a reccuring role in possible sequels. IMO this is a bad idea because one interesting aspect about Doom was how he'd disappear for a while and resurface when no one would expect him. Having him in a sequel would be over-using an asset which could have been a powerful trump card.

It's sad how a script assignment was eventually given to a guy who makes comments as though he didn't know much about the subject matter to begin with (in fairness, the interview - not Simon - makes a claim he does).

Regarding Galactus, Kinberg said: "You know probably better than I what audiences are willing to get into. I would imagine it is possible. I would imagine the Fantastic Four franchise will do what the X-Men franchise [does] – get bigger and bigger each time out, ideally. And certainly Galactus will be as big as you can get."

"You know probably better than I what audiences are willing to get into"? This is coming from the man who is creating a menu millions of FF fans are going to be digesting this summer. He should know whether or not Galactus could be developed into an acceptable movie antagonist. This is another interview demonstrating how horribly out-of-touch this production team is in regards to this film.

IMO this script spent too much time with the Doom the Industrialist/Reed/Sue issue than with creating a good adaptation involving the original motivations of Doom. IMO Simon uses cookie-cutter plot points and over used character models. We're here to see the Fantastic Four not Days of Our Lives!


I spent a lot of time working on character scenes, dialogue, their dynamics, their personal histories, [and] their relationship to Doom.”

Hopefully, his last comment in this interview will translate better on screen than on paper.

The link for the entire interview is http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/1269/2/

Comments?

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Milkman95]

Well, let's just hope there were tons of improvements and changes from the draft that I read, because it was sub-par at best........

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

[wetgorilla]

Well, let's just hope there were tons of improvements and changes from the draft that I read, because it was sub-par at best........

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

I read (or should I say thumbed through) one of the initial shooting scripts laying on my friends desk last year and that was very, subpar. But, like any production the script changes daily while filming and often times the results on film are slightly different than what made it onto the lot initially.

But most often, a script as damaged as that one was can't be salvaged beyond it's best points.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Milkman95]

Well, the old saying goes "You can't polish a terd".............I'm afraid in the case of the FF script, it was doomed from the beginning, so any corrections that have been made won't make enough of an impact to make it good..........we'll see.....hopefully I'm wrong......

[wetgorilla]

Well, the old saying goes "You can't polish a terd".............I'm afraid in the case of the FF script, it was doomed from the beginning, so any corrections that have been made won't make enough of an impact to make it good..........we'll see.....hopefully I'm wrong......

Well, Milkman, some people on this forum might not like the milk you deliver - but all their hateful wishing can't keep you from delivering the truth!

Good job and let's hope all the polishing has whittled the script down to a soft core easily digestable.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

What? You mean wishful thinking can't make a movie better? Sonuva...

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO EPISODE ONE!!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

"Inexperienced" cast and crew? M&M, you and I already had this conversation over on the Batman Begins boards.... :o

;)

[Head>On<Collider]

No, you cannot polish a turd and expect the polish job to do all the damn work. It just doesn't work that way.

[Sardaukar]

Heh heh. Bump.

[Saph]

So it seems Doom takes his mutation into his own hands, and, through HIS OWN WILL, makes himself stronger.

Just as I predicted.

So Doom, metaphorically, creates his own armour. And considering he gets sent to Latveria at the end, he will make his way to rule Latveria with an iron fist. A real iron fist.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

pfffft LAME

[Saph]

pfffft LAME
How insightful. :rolleyes:

It was either you or Saintofkille who wanted Doom to have his diplomatic immunity. If he doesn't have it, why isn't he arrested and sent to an american prison, instead of being sent home to Latveria? Sounds like Diplomatic Immunity to me.

And Doom has created his own power before. Silver Surfer storyline, taking the Beholder's powers; it isn't far from Doom's character to mutate himself further to gain more power, to mold his own destiny.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I wasn't trying to be insightful.

"isn't far from Doom's character" may be good enough for you and that's fine. I'm merely expressing my opinion that the "metaphorically" was lame beyond words.

I am glad you are happy with what they are producing and hope that it gives you some enjoyment.

[Saph]

I wasn't trying to be insightful.

"isn't far from Doom's character" may be good enough for you and that's fine. I'm merely expressing my opinion that the "metaphorically" was lame beyond words.

I am glad you are happy with what they are producing and hope that it gives you some enjoyment.

That's where you have me wrong; i'm not happy. I'd still rather have the better Doom than the one we're getting. It's just i'd rather have this Doom than somebody that only shares his name, know what i'm saying?

[TheSaintofKillers]

So it seems Doom takes his mutation into his own hands, and, through HIS OWN WILL, makes himself stronger.

Just as I predicted.

So Doom, metaphorically, creates his own armour. And considering he gets sent to Latveria at the end, he will make his way to rule Latveria with an iron fist. A real iron fist.

We know this how, actually ?
(if it's real, then i'll be happy. After all the changes we got, at least, by the end, the character won't be too far from the one we know.)

Edit: Oh, I think I just understood. You mean that comes from the news we heard not so much ago that Doom would "overdrive" from his powers, lose, and be sent back to latveria ?

This, isn't such a good thing, actually... I though you meant that Doom would gain "bigger power" by himself, and become much more powerful, and that, at the end, he would go back to Latveria, kick the king's nuts, and take his rightful place on the throne.

That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king.

But alas, if my guess is good, the end will be just as bad as the rest. All it will do is "set events so that if there ever is a sequel, and if Fox let them use Doom again, we might FINALLY get something close to Doom".

That's a giant IF. And they would have waste the first movie... at least, all of Doom's scenes... so we MIGHT one day get something close.

[Herr Logan]

We know this how, actually ?
(if it's real, then i'll be happy. After all the changes we got, at least, by the end, the character won't be too far from the one we know.)

Edit: Oh, I think I just understood. You mean that comes from the news we heard not so much ago that Doom would "overdrive" from his powers, lose, and be sent back to latveria ?

This, isn't such a good thing, actually... I though you meant that Doom would gain "bigger power" by himself, and become much more powerful, and that, at the end, he would go back to Latveria, kick the king's nuts, and take his rightful place on the throne.

That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king.

But alas, if my guess is good, the end will be just as bad as the rest. All it will do is "set events so that if there ever is a sequel, and if Fox let them use Doom again, we might FINALLY get something close to Doom".

That's a giant IF. And they would have waste the first movie... at least, all of Doom's scenes... so we MIGHT one day get something close.

This isn't directed toward Saph specifically, and it doesn't even apply solely to "Fantastic Four," but just going off that last paragraph, I really hate it when people try to justify a crappy movie or crappy aspects of a movie by saying "it's an origin story, it'll be more faithful next time." As if that was a valid justification. If an origin story is mediocre when it could be excellent, it's an unforgivable failure, and it makes it impossible for the "it's just an origin story" excuse to be valid. The people who toss that around as if it had any weight must really have a screwed up view of reality. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on a movie that didn't present the real character and whose creators didn't even attempt to make the most of their opportunities, just so we might get a really good one later? That's such bull*****, and I don't have one shred of respect for anyone who dares toss that out in an attempt to justify creative failures in movies. Again, that's not directed at Saph, since I don't recall him ever saying anything like that, but it's something that TheSaintofKillers referred to and I thought I'd rant a little bit about.

:wolverine

[Saph]

This isn't directed toward Saph specifically, and it doesn't even apply solely to "Fantastic Four," but just going off that last paragraph, I really hate it when people try to justify a crappy movie or crappy aspects of a movie by saying "it's an origin story, it'll be more faithful next time." As if that was a valid justification. If an origin story is mediocre when it could be excellent, it's an unforgivable failure, and it makes it impossible for the "it's just an origin story" excuse to be valid. The people who toss that around as if it had any weight must really have a screwed up view of reality. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on a movie that didn't present the real character and whose creators didn't even attempt to make the most of their opportunities, just so we might get a really good one later? That's such bull*****, and I don't have one shred of respect for anyone who dares toss that out in an attempt to justify creative failures in movies. Again, that's not directed at Saph, since I don't recall him ever saying anything like that, but it's something that TheSaintofKillers referred to and I thought I'd rant a little bit about.

:wolverine
To be fair, he said "That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king." Notice the AT LEAST. This means he would've preferred Doom to be king in the first place, but if what he thought I said was true then it would be better, not that it was OK.

[Herr Logan]

To be fair, he said "That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king." Notice the AT LEAST. This means he would've preferred Doom to be king in the first place, but if what he thought I said was true then it would be better, not that it was OK.

I wasn't criticizing TheSaintofKillers, either. I'm talking about the people who straight-up use a phrase that's something along the lines of "it's an origin movie, they'll give us the real character next time, so stop whining" to justify creativce failures. Those people are scum. That wasn't directed at you or TheSaintofKillers.

:wolverine

[Saph]

I fear for Doom. How I describe him makes things look better, but whether the movie will show it like I do is another thing entirely. Comic book movies have a reputation of having sub-par villains.

Superman the Movie's Lex Luthor. Although he is one of the better ones.

Spider-Man's Green Goblin was a threat; nothing more.

Spider-Man 2's Doctor Octopus was an action vehicle.

X-Men's Magneto was OK.

Hellboy's Rasputin, although he was quite good. The film used Kroenen and Sammael, secondary villains, a lot better though.

Daredevil's Kingpin didn't do anything other than send out Bullseye, who we can all agree was the main threat in DD.

Comic book movies either have one villain that isn't memorable, or two villains where the secondary one is more memorable. I hope Doom isn't reduced to being the 'threat'.

However; Doom looks to be more included than other villains. His involvement in the four's origin, the fact he develops his powers along with them, and Reed and Sue knowing Victor on a personal level.

I just hope he isn't a generic baddie, but rather a sensational on like Lecter and Vader. Like Doom is supposed to be.

[Iron Maiden]

I fear for Doom. How I describe him makes things look better, but whether the movie will show it like I do is another thing entirely. Comic book movies have a reputation of having sub-par villains.

Superman the Movie's Lex Luthor. Although he is one of the better ones..

I am afraid you are right about the track record for movie villains, or more particularly super-villains from the comics. I think you can lay part of the blame on the old Adam West Batman TV show. All over the top, all more than a little silly. It was called "camp" at the time and it worked.... in the 1960'.

I think that is why Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor is played more in that vein. Other than through a plot contrivance, he really doesn't come off as someone who can give Superman a tough fight. That's not to say that Gene Hackman was brilliant in the part but it cast a long shadow over the translation of the archetypical supervillain to the movies.

You don't mention him but I think Jack Nicholson's Joker was the best one from that era. He was closer to the Joker of the comics from that time period - - crazy as a loon but dangerous too.

Spider-Man's Green Goblin was a threat; nothing more.

Spider-Man 2's Doctor Octopus was an action vehicle.

X-Men's Magneto was OK...

What I find interesting is that all three were played by top notch actors but all seem to have difficulty rising to the occasion due to the limitations of the script. I have to give Sam Raimi and his SFX crew credit for making Doc Ock scarier than he is in the comics, even though his origin in the movie makes him look like a purely altruistic humanitarian. Ian McKellan has a couple of impressive scenes but for some reason I don't find him all that memorable. He doesn't come across as the global threat as he does in the comics.

Hellboy's Rasputin, although he was quite good. The film used Kroenen and Sammael, secondary villains, a lot better though.

Daredevil's Kingpin didn't do anything other than send out Bullseye, who we can all agree was the main threat in DD....

I fell asleep twice trying to watch Daredevil and I don't think I have seen it all in one sitting to this day. They made all this fuss about Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin but at the end of the day he wasn't up to the role, and there wasn't that much of a role to begin. DD takes him out in a very unsatsifying fight scene. Even though I am not that big of a Colin Farrell fan, he did well as the psychotic Bullseye.

Comic book movies either have one villain that isn't memorable, or two villains where the secondary one is more memorable. I hope Doom isn't reduced to being the 'threat'.

However; Doom looks to be more included than other villains. His involvement in the four's origin, the fact he develops his powers along with them, and Reed and Sue knowing Victor on a personal level.

I just hope he isn't a generic baddie, but rather a sensational on like Lecter and Vader. Like Doom is supposed to be.

What worries me the most about the Fantastic Four movie is that the writers that have surfaced so far (heck, there may be more we don't know about) just don't inspire a lot of confidence, especially Kinberg. He's been attached to a couple of bombs at least. His interviews give me a glimmer of hope and maybe his stuff got diluted in the typical Hollywood manner. Many a screenwriter has complained that their version of the script seldom reaches the screen 100% intact. And at least he and Tim Story have admitted to being a fan of the comic.

Saph, I have read some of your opinions and you may find it surprising that I do agree with some of them. I think Victor's origin is more complicated than Magneto's to bring to the screen within the limits of a two hour movie and it almost makes me wish they had left him out of the film until the third act. He should have resurfaced, much like he does in FF#5, years after Reed has assumed him dead. I do agree that making Victor the head of a successful conglomerate is akin to having your own kingdom where your word is law (at least within the boundaries of the SEC and FTC!) but I think it could have been more interesting to find out, much like in FF#200, that Reed has been working for a research corporation that is secretly funded by Doom himself back in Latveria, paving the way for a grand entrance in Act III.

How ironic is it that finally reaches Doctor Doom reaches the screen a couple of months after his "bastard grandson" Darth Vader makes his (theoretically) final appearance on the big screen? And George Lucas is going all out for this one after the stinging fan reaction to the previous chapters. At least we are lucky in a couple of respects. First of all, there is quite a bit of time between the opening of Star Wars final chapter and the FF movie. Second, Julian McMahon has shown in the past that he is a far more charismatic performer than Hayden Christianson. That is the one unpredictable and unmeasurable factor that is difficult to quantify....like catching lightening in a bottle.

But the biggest question mark to me is still the script. If only we had a screenwriters as clever as Harve Bennett and an uncredited Nicholas Meyer who incorporated the Moby Dick/Captain Ahab undertones to the Khan character in Star Trek II. Or a writer like Thomas Harris who can endow Hannibal Lector with such erudite qualities in contrast to his primitive cannabilistic urges. There is a similar dichotomy to Doom himself.... a man of almost unparalleled genius and aristocratic airs who more often than not gives in to his aggressive nature and just wants to grind the bones of his enemies to dust. :D



http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Herr Logan]

I am afraid you are right about the track record for movie villains, or more particularly super-villains from the comics. I think you can lay part of the blame on the old Adam West Batman TV show. All over the top, all more than a little silly. It was called "camp" at the time and it worked.... in the 1960'.

I think that is why Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor is played more in that vein. Other than through a plot contrivance, he really doesn't come off as someone who can give Superman a tough fight. That's not to say that Gene Hackman was brilliant in the part but it cast a long shadow over the translation of the archetypical supervillain to the movies.

You don't mention him but I think Jack Nicholson's Joker was the best one from that era. He was closer to the Joker of the comics from that time period - - crazy as a loon but dangerous too.



What I find interesting is that all three were played by top notch actors but all seem to have difficulty rising to the occasion due to the limitations of the script. I have to give Sam Raimi and his SFX crew credit for making Doc Ock scarier than he is in the comics, even though his origin in the movie makes him lookly like a purely altruistic humanitarian. Ian McKellan has a couple of impressive scenes but for some reason I don't find him all that memorable. He doesn't come across as the global threat as he does in the comics.



I fell asleep twice trying to watch Daredevil and I don't think I have seen it all in one sitting to this day. They made all this fuss about Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin but at the end of the day he wasn't up to the role, and there wasn't that much of a role to begin. DD takes him out in a very unsatsifying fight scene. Even though I am not that big of a Colin Farrell fan, he did well as the psychotic Bullseye.



What worries me the most about the Fantastic Four movie is that the writers that have surfaced so far (heck, there may be more we don't know about) just don't inspire a lot of confidence, especially Kinberg. He's been attached to a couple of bombs at least. His interviews give me a glimmer of hope and maybe his stuff got diluted in the typical Hollywood manner. Many a screenwriter has complained that their version of the script seldom reaches the screen 100% intact. And at least he and Tim Story have admitted to being a fan of the comic.

Saph, I have read some of your opinions and you may find it surprising that I do agree with some of them. I think Victor's origin is more complicated than Magneto's to bring to the screen within the limits of a two hour movie and it almost makes me wish they had left him out of the film until the third act. He should have resurfaced, much like he does in FF#5, years after Reed has assumed him dead. I do agree that making Victor the head of a successful conglomerate is akin to having your own kingdom where your word is law (at least within the boundaries of the SEC and FTC!) but I think it could have been more interesting to find out, much like in FF#200, that Reed has been working for a research corporation that is secretly funded by Doom himself back in Latveria, paving the way for a grand entrance in Act III.

How ironic is it that finally reaches Doctor Doom reaches the screen a couple of months after his "bastard grandson" Darth Vader makes his (theoretically) final appearance on the big screen? And George Lucas is going all out for this one after the stinging fan reaction to the previous chapters. At least we are lucky in a couple of respects. First of all, there is quite a bit of time between the opening of Star Wars final chapter and the FF movie. Second, Julian McMahon has shown in the past that he is a far more charismatic performer than Hayden Christianson. That is the one unpredictable and unmeasurable factor that is difficult to quantify....like catching lightening in a bottle.

But the biggest question mark to me is still the script. If only we had a screenwriters as clever as Harve Bennett and an uncredited Nicholas Meyer who incorporated the Moby Dick/Captain Ahab undertones to the Khan character in Star Trek II. Or a writer like Thomas Harris who can endow Hannibal Lector with such erudite qualities in contrast to his primitive cannabilistic urges. There is a similar dichotomy to Doom himself.... a man of almost unparalleled genius and aristocratic airs who more often than not gives in to his aggressive nature and just wants to grind the bones of his enemies to dust. :D
http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif


That was an excellent post, Iron Maiden. :up:

:wolverine

[Iron Maiden]

That was an excellent post, Iron Maiden. :up:

:wolverine

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10
http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Herr Logan]

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10
http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif


That's an awesome line. :D :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10


http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif






how about the writers of TV shows like nip/tuc and the shield ?(sorry don't know the various names)they deliver some good biting dialogue with a tint of audacious arrogance such as doom requires

[Sardaukar]

Personally, I hope that the filmmakers try to get across how intelligent Doom is compared to your average individual.

I don't have any Doom quotes, but I was reading Mark Millar's Red Son the other day, where Millar has Lex doing all these incredible mental feats throughout the whole book.

Here are a few quotes:

One moment, young man. Just let me switch off this portable tape recorder I designed in the washroom this morning. I'm teaching myself Urdu to keep my mind busy while I'm reading and playing chess with the monkeys .

(The story takes place in the 50s, before portable tape recorders were invented and the "monkeys" are actually fellow scientists).

Lois: Why's the volume turned down so low, honey? It's a quiz show. You love quiz shows.

Lex: I'm teaching myself how to lip-read, Lois. It only occurred to me this afternoon that I didn't know how."

Brainiac: I couldn't allow him (Lex) to debate with you, Superman. Entering a conversation with a level nine intelligence is more dangerous than any death trap. My calculations were that he could have talked you into suicide within fourteen minutes.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"
And there is the Doom we probably won't get to see but should.
(BTW, Great last couple posts, IM)

[Iron Maiden]

how about the writers of TV shows like nip/tuc and the shield ?(sorry don't know the various names)they deliver some good biting dialogue with a tint of audacious arrogance such as doom requires

Yeah, they do have some good writers on those shows. Creator/director Ryan Murphy does a lot of the Nip/Tuck scripts but they have a writing staff too. Some of the funnier lines I can't repeat here though. :joker:

JM's character did have a funny line about the pro bono work they were blackmailed into doing on an aging socialite being more like palenthology than surgery.

And thanks, VictorVonDoomX! Praise from my Master...now can I have a day off from scrubbing down the dungeons?

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

ONLY IF YOU'VE PUT THE COTTON BALLS IN BETWEEN THE CHAIN LINKS!




Doom needs his beauty sleep.

[Saph]

I always thought Doom would talk in a shakesperian manner. When I read Macbeth Doom popped up into my head. Except that Macbeth is much weaker than Doom.

[Iron Maiden]

I always thought Doom would talk in a shakesperian manner. When I read Macbeth Doom popped up into my head. Except that Macbeth is much weaker than Doom.

I'd always likened Doom more to Richard III myself (I always think of the line that goes "determined to prove a villain") since in the play he seems to place a lot of blame for his actions on the fact that his physcial appearance is not pleasing to the eye (so much so that dogs bark at him!). Doom does not turn into a grandly villainous character until after his face is scarred. But you could make a case for the MacBeth too.

Stan Lee started dialoguing Doom differently around the FF annual eventually evolving into using the third person phrases that some writers work to excess. Doom isn't as Shakepearan in his speech patterns as the Thor comic but he definitely took on a regal aspect after we see him revealed as the power behind the throne in Latveria.


http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Caliber]

I always thought Doom would talk in a shakesperian manner. When I read Macbeth Doom popped up into my head. Except that Macbeth is much weaker than Doom.

I argee. Macbeth may have a few differences but there strong similarities.

[Saph]

I'd always liked Doom more to Richard III myself (I always think of the line that goes "determined to prove a villain") since in the play he seems to place a lot of blame for his actions on the fact that his physcial appearance is not pleasing to the eye (so much so that dogs bark at him!). Doom does not turn into a grandly villainous character until after his face is scarred. But you could make a case for the MacBeth too.

Stan Lee started dialoguing Doom differently around the FF annual eventually evolving into using the third person phrases that some writers work to excess. Doom isn't as Shakepearan in his speech patterns as the Thor comic but he definitely took on a regal aspect after we see him revealed as the power behind the throne in Latveria.



Well I haven't read Richard III. I never likened Doom's character to Macbeth, but the way he speaks, if you get my meaning. It's just the way an arrogant smartass main would talk to prove his superiority.

[psycho]

Hey I just noticed something.
I don't remember if this has been brought up before or not but anyway. I was just watching the Showest trailer and If you compare the scene where he attacks Sue in his office in the new trailer and the old trailer, frame by frame you can clearly see that they have changed the effect for his "electric" power, I doesnt look like electricity at all. It looks more like some sort of blue energy, not electricity.

[Kelly]

Hey I just noticed something.
I don't remember if this has been brought up before or not but anyway. I was just watching the Showest trailer and If you compare the scene where he attacks Sue in his office in the new trailer and the old trailer, frame by frame you can clearly see that they have changed the effect for his "electric" power, I doesnt look like electricity at all. It looks more like some sort of blue energy, not electricity.

its electricity because he drains it from power sources all around him....you'll definitely see that in the movie.....things turning on and off etc.....

[Iron Maiden]

its electricity because he drains it from power sources all around him....you'll definitely see that in the movie.....things turning on and off etc.....

Sooooo...... (damn.... those ellipses are spreading again) Doom's powers work like the Clapper?
http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/IM.jpg

[Kelly]

Sooooo...... (damn.... those ellipses are spreading again) Doom's powers work like the Clapper?


http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/IM.jpg



LMAO......yeah sort of....hard to tell until the movie...but seems that way...at first he doesn't realize its happening...

[Saph]

Hey I just noticed something.
I don't remember if this has been brought up before or not but anyway. I was just watching the Showest trailer and If you compare the scene where he attacks Sue in his office in the new trailer and the old trailer, frame by frame you can clearly see that they have changed the effect for his "electric" power, I doesnt look like electricity at all. It looks more like some sort of blue energy, not electricity.
You know what's funny? I was thinking the exact same thing 10 minutes ago. But that's been denounced by Albafan, so...

[psycho]

You know what's funny? I was thinking the exact same thing 10 minutes ago. But that's been denounced by Albafan, so...
Yeah I guess.

[Hunter Rider]

bump

http://img207.echo.cx/img207/3397/229bs.gif

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[Saph]

Well folks, it looks like what i've been saying about Doom is true. Everyone in doubt of Doom go to Lightnin's script review thread.

[GoblinScrier]

Well, my fellow Doom fanatics (and you know who you are), after what Lightning has said in his script review, have your opinions worsened, improved, or remained the same ?

Frankly, mine have improved. I think we might be able to salvage a pretty good interpretation of Doom but only time will tell, especially if the elements we are truly waiting for are intact and will appear in the sequel (i.e. Doom becoming monarch of Latveria).

Would love to hear from you all !

[Head>On<Collider]

It




is




still





Organic




Armor




Doom




With




mutant



super=




powers.

[Herr Logan]

It




is




still





Organic




Armor




Doom




With




mutant



super=




powers.

Stop nitpicking. I bet you complained about Movie!Spider-Man not having a personality and Movie!Cyclops being stripped of his status as a strong-willed leader and remanded to being the X-Men's *****-boy, too. :rolleyes:

;) :D :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Well, my fellow Doom fanatics (and you know who you are), after what Lightning has said in his script review, have your opinions worsened, improved, or remained the same ?

Frankly, mine have improved. I think we might be able to salvage a pretty good interpretation of Doom but only time will tell, especially if the elements we are truly waiting for are intact and will appear in the sequel (i.e. Doom becoming monarch of Latveria).

Would love to hear from you all !

Lightnin painted a far prettier picture, but I'll believe it when I see it. It's likely still not what it should be. It would have been nice if they had written it like Wobbly did in Head>On<Collider's thread.

:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

Lightnin painted a far prettier picture, but I'll believe it when I see it. It's likely still not what it should be. It would have been nice if they had written it like Wobbly did in Head>On<Collider's thread.

:wolverine


Agreed--it's definitely not what it should be...and I can think of a million better ways to do it (as you all could too), buuuuuut it's light years away from what it was (a la pu$$y-whipped Frost version) and the end result puts him where he should be.

Personally, I don't care for the route, they've taken but the destination is spot on--he is indeed Dr. Doom in all his glory at the end. So it's another Hollywood compromise I'm getting used to. I know they did it to please general audiences, but it looks like they made a bigger effort to please some of us with the rewrites. We'll see how it plays out on film.

[Iron Maiden]

I did find encouraging signs in Lightin's review:

- More emphasis given to his Latverian heritage. That is the first I read that the reason why Victor whacks the guy in the parking garage is because he disrespected his homeland. Latveria has always been the one constant in Victor's universe.

- I didn't know that the Frost script had Victor cowering in a corner somewhere when the cosmic storm hits the space station. Thank goodness that scene is gone, or at least I hope it's gone.:mad: I have sometimes teased by fellow FF fans by the fact that it takes the four of them to take on Doom. How can you call a fellow who routinely takes on overwhelming odds a coward?

- The romance between Victor and Sue has been downplayed. Now, I wouldn't have minded if there were a hint of a "dangerous liason" there. A couple of writers have hinted around that there is something between the two but it is very subtle. Chris Claremont does this in FF#30-31 when he has Doom contact Sue on another plane, undetected by Reed, to convince her to take sides with him against her own husband. I think it is very significant that he choses her and not Ben or Johnny to persuade in joining him to take his armor back from Reed. This is one plus in casting Julian McMahon... he is very good at playing a dangerously seductive character on his show Nip/Tuck.




I made a resolution to myself a couple of months ago that I will look at movie version of Doom as something out of the old "What If" series. This is a "What if" story that shows what would have happened if Doom had not endeavored to contact the Netherworld, or got expelled from the University. The positive side to this is that in the script Victor beats the slackwit Americans at their own capitalistic games, so much so that Reed has to come to him for aid.

But than there's that organic armor thing again and giving him powers to control electricity - - mere trifles compared to the kinds of weaponry Doom builds into his armor. Even Tony (Iron Man) Stark concedes that if Doom spent as much time redesigning his armor as he did, the results would "demolish my armor like tinfoil". I will always regret the film took their lead from the Ultimate universe version of Doom. I just hope the script does give us some sense of his level of genius.

http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Lightning Strykez!]

From the way the script concludes, it's obvious that Victor owns A LOT. He has robotics, missiles, space stations, ships and even Latverian Freightliners under his control. So the Von Doom Industries corporation is merely the U.S. facade for a much larger conglomerate. But prior to the accident, Victor really has no reason to build Doombots, or do anything else that could be considered a threat. He's a scientist, well respected and decorated by the world's greatest leaders, and he's simply riding a tremendous wave of success due to the breakthroughs he's managed.

But what I sense from the script and storyboards is that the writers felt that in this origin, Victor simply wouldn't have had enough time to put together a threat large enough to be a challenge worthy of four cosmic-doused heroes. There just isn't enough time in this script for him to come up with all of the traps and technological advances that would afford a non-powered armored man any advantage over the FF (which is why they should've foregone the origin story altogether and just have him established as a monarch from the get-go :rolleyes: )

In the script, the organic armor and its subsequent abilities makes Doom a formidable foe that all four must combine forces to defeat. He is more than their equal. It's believable to audiences this way, because frankly, he is a God in Act III--too wise, cunning and powerful for his own good. What's more, he hungers for and enjoys his newfound powers and considers them as gifts from the Gods "bestowed" unto himself. He is meant for royalty, so from his position, this freak accident was bound to happen anyway if it meant upgrading him to the level of superiority where he belongs. All other humanity is simply beneath him at that point...especially the FF when they unite against him for the first time.

[Kmack]

From the way the script concludes, it's obvious that Victor owns A LOT. He has robotics, missiles, space stations, ships and even Latverian Freightliners under his control. So the Von Doom Industries corporation is merely the U.S. facade for a much larger conglomerate. But prior to the accident, Victor really has no reason to build Doombots, or do anything else that could be considered a threat. He's a scientist, well respected and decorated by the world's greatest leaders, and he's simply riding a tremendous wave of success due to the breakthroughs he's managed.

But what I sense from the script and storyboards is that the writers felt that in this origin, Victor simply wouldn't have had enough time to put together a threat large enough to be a challenge worthy of four cosmic-doused heroes. There just isn't enough time in this script for him to come up with all of the traps and technological advances that would afford a non-powered armored man any advantage over the FF (which is why they should've foregone the origin story altogether and just have him established as a monarch from the get-go :rolleyes: )

In the script, the organic armor and its subsequent abilities makes Doom a formidable foe that all four must combine forces to defeat. He is more than their equal. It's believable to audiences this way, because frankly, he is a God in Act III--too wise, cunning and powerful for his own good. What's more, he hungers for and enjoys his newfound powers and considers them as gifts from the Gods "bestowed" unto himself. He is meant for royalty, so from his position, this freak accident was bound to happen anyway if it meant upgrading him to the level of superiority where he belongs. All other humanity is simply beneath him at that point...especially the FF when they unite against him for the first time.
Hope it turns out to be as good as you make it sound:up:

[Iron Maiden]

From the way the script concludes, it's obvious that Victor owns A LOT. He has robotics, missiles, space stations, ships and even Latverian Freightliners under his control. So the Von Doom Industries corporation is merely the U.S. facade for a much larger conglomerate. But prior to the accident, Victor really has no reason to build Doombots, or do anything else that could be considered a threat. He's a scientist, well respected and decorated by the world's greatest leaders, and he's simply riding a tremendous wave of success due to the breakthroughs he's managed.

But what I sense from the script and storyboards is that the writers felt that in this origin, Victor simply wouldn't have had enough time to put together a threat large enough to be a challenge worthy of four cosmic-doused heroes. There just isn't enough time in this script for him to come up with all of the traps and technological advances that would afford a non-powered armored man any advantage over the FF (which is why they should've foregone the origin story altogether and just have him established as a monarch from the get-go :rolleyes: ) .

I am not going to ask you for any more details but I do find it amusing that in the movie, Doom is far more successful than Reed when we meet them - - a reversal of fortunes you might say. Of course you recall that in the comics, Reed's father is millionaire/scientist Nathaniel Richards whereas Victor's circumstances are more humble and far less stable. He spends his early years eluding the old Baron's armed guards simply because his kind are considered undesirables. In the comics, this gives him that ferocious drive to excel and prove his worth to a world that shunned him. I suspect the writers jettisoned all that to avoid making him too sympathetic. We have to root for the heroes after all.

In the script, the organic armor and its subsequent abilities makes Doom a formidable foe that all four must combine forces to defeat. He is more than their equal. It's believable to audiences this way, because frankly, he is a God in Act III--too wise, cunning and powerful for his own good. What's more, he hungers for and enjoys his newfound powers and considers them as gifts from the Gods "bestowed" unto himself. He is meant for royalty, so from his position, this freak accident was bound to happen anyway if it meant upgrading him to the level of superiority where he belongs. All other humanity is simply beneath him at that point...especially the FF when they unite against him for the first time.

At least that part they got right - - his almost insatiable lust for power. I do think it is far less compelling that in the movie he already has considerable resources when the initial transformation from the cosmic storm takes place. A freakish accidental exposure to cosmic radiation endows him with power. While it is true he does embrace this transformation, he sort of falls into it by chance. Later, he does enhance the powers given to him in the transformation chamber. In the comics it is Doom's resolve to overcome his circumstances that propels him down the path he takes, transforming himself by his own volition once he becomes disfigured by his own experiment. In its simplest form, I see it as a case of need vs greed. "Classic" Doom needs power because it affords him the control over his own fate that he lacked earlier in his life. Movie Doom wants more than the already has, at least more from what he possesses at the start of the movie. I will have to wait to see the movie and how it plays out to judge whether or not that is an improvement on the character.


http://img160.exs.cx/img160/3372/marvelgirl24eg.gif

[Herr Logan]

Anybody else notice a pattern with Marvel's biggest, baddest and most arrogant supervillians? A lot of them started out dirt poor and/or persecuted.

Off the top of my head, here's a list of top-tier supervillains that fit that description:
Dr. Doom
Red Skull
Magneto
Kingpin
Apocalypse

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

Well folks, it looks like what i've been saying about Doom is true. Everyone in doubt of Doom go to Lightnin's script review thread.

Oh, come on. Most of Lightnin's postings were commentaries describing his interpretation of what he wanted to conclude from the actions of the characters. Had he gone any further, Lightnin would have had to begin describing our emotions while reading his post (which isn't hard to do with some of us) :rolleyes:


Victor's interest in Susan is already on the wane, because he realizes that she isn't worthy of him anyway. However, because Reed and Susan genuinely love eachother, Victor sees it as an opportunity to manipulate things to his favor.


In regards to Doom, some of us must be incredibly desperate for an FF2 movie to continue justifying the butchery that has been done here in order to keep the hype up.

Hey, Saph remember to wear your bright pink T-shirt with the words, What Lightnin Says Must Be True.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Saph]

Oh, come on. Most of Lightnin's postings were commentaries describing his interpretation of what he wanted to conclude from the actions of the characters. Had he gone any further, Lightnin would have had to begin describing our emotions while reading his post (which isn't hard to do with some of us) :rolleyes:
And you know this for sure? You know what Lightnin was thinking as he read the script? People can see right through you now, Wetgorilla. I think you want this film to fail. You talk about people always acting like everythings hunky-dory, well you're the other extreme. You act like everything sucks, and i'm getting sick of it.

In regards to Doom, some of us must be incredibly desperate for an FF2 movie to continue justifying the butchery that has been done here in order to keep the hype up. Butchery you say? Ok, I'll believe you even though you've read an out of date script, have seen nothing except trailers that barely shows Doom at all, and basing your facts on rumours from 2 years ago!

Hey, Saph remember to wear your bright pink T-shirt with the words, What Lightnin Says Must Be True.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Actually, i'll be wearing my other t-shirt, What Wetgorilla Says Is Complete Tripe.

[Hunter Rider]

I take Lightnin's views on Doom in this script based off how i see him as a man.He has never been one to say everything is fine with Doom in this movie in fact he has displayed his displeasure at the changes many times.However he has always been a poster with integrity who is i believe respected by all even those that disagree with him on certain issues,So when he says that he believes Doom's character has been improved in this script i choose to trust someone who has never given me reason to doubt his word.Myself i agree with the consnesus that there were other ways to incorporate the traditional Doom Armour and origin however like Iron Maiden i made peace with this "elseworls" version of Doom a long time ago.For those that havent there is nothing wrong with that either,its all just how we personaly choose to deal with certain issues.It does seem at the very least despite the obvious UFF leaning they have incorporated much of classic doom's cruelty/malevolance/Arrogance and vanity into the movie version.

[Kelly]

Oh, come on. Most of Lightnin's postings were commentaries describing his interpretation of what he wanted to conclude from the actions of the characters. Had he gone any further, Lightnin would have had to begin describing our emotions while reading his post (which isn't hard to do with some of us) :rolleyes:



In regards to Doom, some of us must be incredibly desperate for an FF2 movie to continue justifying the butchery that has been done here in order to keep the hype up.

Hey, Saph remember to wear your bright pink T-shirt with the words, What Lightnin Says Must Be True.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine


Describing peoples emotions could prove to be very difficult....but describing your motives behind your posts is really pretty easy....and several have done that over the course of a few months....but your posts actually speak for themselves....people see through your posts WG...they really do.

[Megatron]

Oh, come on. Most of Lightnin's postings were commentaries describing his interpretation of what he wanted to conclude from the actions of the characters. Had he gone any further, Lightnin would have had to begin describing our emotions while reading his post (which isn't hard to do with some of us) :rolleyes: ...

some people are ingrates and need to learn some manners. you're contorting a good intention.
you did a great job, lightnin, and the rest of us appreciate your review!

[Kmack]

Hey, Saph remember to wear your bright pink T-shirt with the words, What Lightnin Says Must Be True.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
Wet, I love you and all but I have to call you out on this one:hq:

That’s totally unfair. Lightnin not only said that he believes this movie will do well but he actually took time to write a fricking review (a very convincing one mind you) explaining WHY. Someone agreeing with this doesn’t necessarily mean they think that the poster is always right.

I can’t speak for everyone but one reason why I agree with Lightnin on most occasions is because I’m horrible at explaining how I feel about a certain subject or topic. Heck, its frustrating for me just to write this post now:o Lightnin (almost) always take the words right out of my mouth, which results in the common “I totally agree” post. I know a few people in this forum who feel the same way. But that’s not to suggest that I don’t disagree with him, because I do in some cases:p

Actually you will find a lot of posters agreeing with Lightnin. Not because they think he’s “god” and everything he says must be true, but because he speaks for us and gives us hope.

[Saph]

Looks like people are seeing you for what you really are, Wetgorilla. You're all dried up. Just go away, because you're not contributing to this forum at all. All you do is moan and don't even acknowledge the good, and sometimes you hate things that are 100% faithful to the comics!

Please, just leave.

[Mrs. Fantastic]

http://www.shamelesstourist.com/MONKPOOP.gif

This has been a public service announcement.

Mrs. F.

[Hunter Rider]

Lmao:D ^^^

[Kelly]

http://www.shamelesstourist.com/MONKPOOP.gif

This has been a public service announcement.

Mrs. F.


OOOOHHHH MMMYYYYYY GGGGOOOOODDDDD!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO..........

well i think i'm going to have to stop drinking diet coke while reading posts....*goes to get paper towel* for the 3rd x this week......:hyper:

[Kmack]

Wet, if you can manage to post your opinion and views in your posts without insulting anyone. You will find your stay at the Hype! a little more pleasant.

[Saph]

Wet, if you can manage to post your opinion and views in your posts without insulting anyone. You will find your stay at the Hype! a little more pleasant.
Don't forget to tell him to stop dogging on things he doesn't understand. Anybody who calls the FF costumes unfaithful obviously isn't thinking straight.

[Herr Logan]

I take Lightnin's views on Doom in this script based off how i see him as a man.He has never been one to say everything is fine with Doom in this movie in fact he has displayed his displeasure at the changes many times.However he has always been a poster with integrity who is i believe respected by all even those that disagree with him on certain issues,So when he says that he believes Doom's character has been improved in this script i choose to trust someone who has never given me reason to doubt his word.Myself i agree with the consnesus that there were other ways to incorporate the traditional Doom Armour and origin however like Iron Maiden i made peace with this "elseworls" version of Doom a long time ago.For those that havent there is nothing wrong with that either,its all just how we personaly choose to deal with certain issues.It does seem at the very least despite the obvious UFF leaning they have incorporated much of classic doom's cruelty/malevolance/Arrogance and vanity into the movie version.

I could never trust Lightnin fully when it comes to predicting how a comic book movie translation is going to turn out (because he's an optimist, and therefore is likely to render an interpretation that does not err on the side of caution), but I agree with what you said about him here. He's a man of integrity, he does his research, and he keeps the bull***** to a minimum. I'm far more likely to trust him than I am someone who just goes on wishful thinking, and I certainly respect him more.

:wolverine

[Saph]

(because he's an optimist, and therefore is likely to render an interpretation that does not err on the side of caution)

:wolverine

Lightnin is not an optimist on the scale of Albafan, Herr. He wasn't extremely happy with Doom, until he read the script. He also was one of the main protesters when Jessica Alba was cast, although he now accepts her. I wouldn't call him someone that only sees the bright side. I think he likes what he is seeing, but not so much that anything bad he sees right through.

And being a Pessimist on the level of Wetgorilla (the mindset that everything sucks) wouldn't make the review any more factual, either.

[Kelly]

Lightnin is not an optimist on the scale of Albafan, Herr. He wasn't extremely happy with Doom, until he read the script. He also was one of the main protesters when Jessica Alba was cast, although he now accepts her. I wouldn't call him someone that only sees the bright side. I think he likes what he is seeing, but not so much that anything bad he sees right through.

And being a Pessimist on the level of Wetgorilla (the mindset that everything sucks) wouldn't make the review any more factual, either.



Would someone please show me one post where i have said this movie is going to be great, awesome, fantastic (excuse me), best movie, good movie, mediocre movie, bad movie....whatever movie......cause i'm really tired of my name be used out of context....its beginning to piss me off ALOT.....i actually have given my opinion on very little.....i haven't given my opinion on the trailers because i for the most part don't like any trailers....they irritate me....i haven't given much on the pics i've seen because they are just pics....the most i have EVER been optimistic on is the damn website....which to me is excellent.....and i will say so, and have.....BUT other than a sincere hope that this movie does well, and an affirmation here and there of the actors desire to do it right.....please take me off of any damn list whether it be positive, negative or WHATEVER.......

What you just did Saph in my eyes...is put me at the same level as WG except at the other end.....and thats just as much a slam in my eyes as anything WG has said to me.......whether you meant to or not....thats how i see it....

adios.....

[Saph]

Would someone please show me one post where i have said this movie is going to be great, awesome, fantastic (excuse me), best movie, good movie, mediocre movie, bad movie....whatever movie......cause i'm really tired of my name be used out of context....its beginning to piss me off ALOT.....i actually have given my opinion on very little.....i haven't given my opinion on the trailers because i for the most part don't like any trailers....they irritate me....i haven't given much on the pics i've seen because they are just pics....the most i have EVER been optimistic on is the damn website....which to me is excellent.....and i will say so, and have.....BUT other than a sincere hope that this movie does well, and an affirmation here and there of the actors desire to do it right.....please take me off of any damn list whether it be positive, negative or WHATEVER.......
I'm just saying you had an upbeat and positive attitude that's all.. :eek:

I never meant to offend you.

[Herr Logan]

Don't forget to tell him to stop dogging on things he doesn't understand. Anybody who calls the FF costumes unfaithful obviously isn't thinking straight.

That's not really accurate, Saph. The issue of the Fantastic Four's costumes as far as I'm concerned is subjective. If there's an issue between a hardcore fan who says a costume isn't faithful and an ambivalent fan who says it is, I'd be more likely to give the hardcore fan the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I'm satisfied with the Moivie FF costumes, but I'm not as invested in them as some other people are, so I'm certainly not going to take my own reaction over a hardcore FF fan's.

:wolverine

[Mrs. Fantastic]

He's a man of integrity, he does his research, and he keeps the bull***** to a minimum.

This is right on. Because of this, in his information that he has shared on the script, it's easy to discern the facts of what he's read, and separate them from his feelings about those facts. Both are in his writeup, but those seeking the facts of character treatment and arcs can find them and form their own opinions. That's why I found the writeups informative.

Mrs. F.

[Saph]

That's not really accurate, Saph. The issue of the Fantastic Four's costumes as far as I'm concerned is subjective. If there's an issue between a hardcore fan who says a costume isn't faithful and an ambivalent fan who says it is, I'd be more likely to give the hardcore fan the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I'm satisfied with the Moivie FF costumes, but I'm not as invested in them as some other people are, so I'm certainly not going to take my own reaction over a hardcore FF fan's.

:wolverine
You don't have to be a hardcore fan to see whether a costume is faithful or not, I mean the non-comic reading public will smell any changes to Superman and Batman's costumes, wouldn't they?

The Fantastic Four costume's always change. But they all have defining features; a black/white collar, gloves and boots. Blue suit, with the 4 emblem on it. The movie costumes have all of those qualities. What are so unfaithful about them.

[Cypher]

Oh, come on. Most of Lightnin's postings were commentaries describing his interpretation of what he wanted to conclude from the actions of the characters. Had he gone any further, Lightnin would have had to begin describing our emotions while reading his post (which isn't hard to do with some of us) :rolleyes:



In regards to Doom, some of us must be incredibly desperate for an FF2 movie to continue justifying the butchery that has been done here in order to keep the hype up.

Hey, Saph remember to wear your bright pink T-shirt with the words, What Lightnin Says Must Be True.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine



I have to say you one thing. I love the FF Board and respect most people around here very much but I am really tired of you negative, often insulting posts. Eyerything you do around here is insulting or provoking people. I can´t remember that you have posted sth. that was nice to read or informative.
I don´t think that we need posting like yours here. So, please chance your attidude or stop posting around here.

[Herr Logan]

Lightnin is not an optimist on the scale of Albafan, Herr. He wasn't extremely happy with Doom, until he read the script. He also was one of the main protesters when Jessica Alba was cast, although he now accepts her. I wouldn't call him someone that only sees the bright side. I think he likes what he is seeing, but not so much that anything bad he sees right through.

And being a Pessimist on the level of Wetgorilla (the mindset that everything sucks) wouldn't make the review any more factual, either.

Lightnin doesn't have to be an optimist "on the scale of Albafan." I can't fully trust anybody whose natural inclination is to assume the best about something. Also, you might want to rethink how you describe her. She expresses positive feelings, not so much positive expectations in the strictest sense.

And you're absolutely right about the other side of the coin. Saph, maybe you should take a look at some of the posts you've written about the Spider-Man movies and see if you might also fall into that category yourself when it comes to certain movies.

:wolverine

[Saph]

And you're absolutely right about the other side of the coin. Saph, maybe you should take a look at some of the posts you've written about the Spider-Man movies and see if you might also fall into that category yourself when it comes to certain movies.

:wolverine

:wolverine
That's not an accurate comparison. I appreciate things about the Spidey movies; the costume, Doc Ock's look and how the tentacles are attached, the fight scenes, organic webbing, the look of the pumpkin bombs and glider, the concept of Goblin armour, how the webbing looks, J. Jonah Jameson, the ''I have a knack for that'' line.

However, Wetgorilla moans about things that he shouldn't be moaning about, and creating false problems. He'd probably moan about Human Torch's useage of ''flame on''.

[Herr Logan]

You don't have to be a hardcore fan to see whether a costume is faithful or not, I mean the non-comic reading public will smell any changes to Superman and Batman's costumes, wouldn't they?

The Fantastic Four costume's always change. But they all have defining features; a black/white collar, gloves and boots. Blue suit, with the 4 emblem on it. The movie costumes have all of those qualities. What are so unfaithful about them.

Saph, even the comic-reading community doesn't seem predominantly concerned with faithful Superman and Batman costumes, much less the non-readers. Where have you been?

I'm not arguing about the faithfulness of the FF movie costumes. I'm saying you haven't been very objective about this movie from the very beginning and you have proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that you're perfectly fine with certain changes that are unquestionably drastic and arguably cheap and unethical (DDINO), and your take on it isn't very reliable. My take on the costumes isn't very reliable, either, since I'm not as familiar with all the different incarnations.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

That's not an accurate comparison. I appreciate things about the Spidey movies; the costume, Doc Ock's look and how the tentacles are attached, the fight scenes, organic webbing, the look of the pumpkin bombs and glider, the concept of Goblin armour, how the webbing looks, J. Jonah Jameson, the ''I have a knack for that'' line.

However, Wetgorilla moans about things that he shouldn't be moaning about, and creating false problems. He'd probably moan about Human Torch's useage of ''flame on''.

You're not in a position to say what he should or should not be moaning about, especially when it comes to superhero costumes. That's an essential part of the genre and it's a visual medium.

Don't even start with "Flame on," because I'm absolutely confident that they'll find some way to demean both the line and the audience. If I'm wrong, fantastic. If not, then I was prepared for it.

You've made sweeping and absolute statements about the Spider-Man movies, Saph. You've made more absolutes than I ever did, and the posts I'm referring to don't include any exceptions for things you did like. I don't see why you can't admit you're just as fallible in this regard as any other passionate poster.

:wolverine

[Saph]

Saph, even the comic-reading community doesn't seem predominantly concerned with faithful Superman and Batman costumes, much less the non-readers. Where have you been?It's because those idiots are justifying those changes with the general public, even though the general public could care less. Whether or not the public like the changes, they'll notice the changes.

I'm not arguing about the faithfulness of the FF movie costumes. I'm saying you haven't been very objective about this movie from the very beginning and you have proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that you're perfectly fine with certain changes that are unquestionably drastic and arguably cheap and unethical (DDINO)
You wanna know why I wasn't completely objective? Because we hadn't heard A THING about Doom other than he was a corporate businessman and had organic armour. And then we found out he was wearing the comic mask, and each new peice of information was reassuring. Then I noticed the similarities between Movie and Comic Doom, and guess what, they've been proved to be true.
You've also just proved a point, you would say you trusted a hardcore fan's opinion on the costumes; well Lightnins a hardcore fan of the FF, so wouldn't his view on the script be accurate?

[Saph]

You're not in a position to say what he should or should not be moaning about, especially when it comes to superhero costumes. That's an essential part of the genre and it's a visual medium.But when the costumes are something he should actually be liking and exactly what he asked for, it gets a tad silly.

Don't even start with "Flame on," because I'm absolutely confident that they'll find some way to demean both the line and the audience. If I'm wrong, fantastic. If not, then I was prepared for it.Well, we could ask Lightnin if there is a line that demeans it, couldn't we?

You've made sweeping and absolute statements about the Spider-Man movies, Saph. You've made more absolutes than I ever did, and the posts I'm referring to don't include any exceptions for things you did like. I don't see why you can't admit you're just as fallible in this regard as any other passionate poster.

:wolverine
Because I don't insult people who have different views. If they try and justify blasphemy, then I would. If they insult me for not liking something the majority likes or liking something that the majority doesn't like, then I return the favour.

But Wetgorilla has shown he can do nothing but complain and insult; and that's why he needs to go.

[Herr Logan]

It's because those idiots are justifying those changes with the general public, even though the general public could care less. Whether or not the public like the changes, they'll notice the changes.


You wanna know why I wasn't completely objective? Because we hadn't heard A THING about Doom other than he was a corporate businessman and had organic armour. And then we found out he was wearing the comic mask, and each new peice of information was reassuring. Then I noticed the similarities between Movie and Comic Doom, and guess what, they've been proved to be true.
You've also just proved a point, you would say you trusted a hardcore fan's opinion on the costumes; well Lightnins a hardcore fan of the FF, so wouldn't his view on the script be accurate?

I said I'd trust him more and give him the benefit of the doubt over a person who isn't as invested. He's near the top of my list when it comes to people having valid input on the subject of this movie. That doesn't mean I trust him completely. Maybe this isn't obvious, but I don't trust anyone completely about anything. That alone makes me more suited to judge what Dr. Doom should be like than the average studio-worshipping sycophant, because I know what it's like to be an arrogant, miserable bastard that wants the world to be what it oughtta be.

:wolverine

[Saph]

I said I'd trust him more and give him the benefit of the doubt over a person who isn't as invested. He's near the top of my list when it comes to people having valid input on the subject of this movie. That doesn't mean I trust him completely. Maybe this isn't obvious, but I don't trust anyone completely about anything. That alone makes me more suited to judge what Dr. Doom should be like than the average studio-worshipping sycophant, because I know what it's like to be an arrogant, miserable bastard that wants the world to be what it oughtta be.

:wolverine
Well let's just hope the script is exactly what Lightnin says it is and Julian plays Doom well.

[Hunter Rider]

This has gone a bit off topic.The main reason many of us posted in here is b/c Lightnin's integrity was being questioned.Now as herr said i'm sure with something as subjective as a movie our views may not aligne with Lightnin's when the time comes,also things that sound weak on paper can look great on screen and vice versa.For many of us wetgorilla's negativity isn't the problem its his complete lack of respect for other posters and his degrading manner of talking to those he disagree's with,I could care a less about him hating the movie but his racialy questionable insult towards lightnin as well as attacking the mans job(in another thread)along with the disparaging remarks in this one smacks not of hard fought debate -ala saph and herr-right now- but of a more insidious agenda IMO

[Herr Logan]

But when the costumes are something he should actually be liking and exactly what he asked for, it gets a tad silly.

You're not in a position to say what he should or should not like. You can't judge a person's preferences, only his opinions. I'm not saying I agree with him on the costumes, I'm saying that when you outright invalidate his opinion on them, you give more power to the pro-studio/anti-source material drones that keep insisting that they not use faithful costumes, in every superhero movie that comes out. As far as I'm concerned with the movie Spider-Man costumes, that was a dodged bullet, not a sure win. You don't like it when people insist on making the Batman look like a carnival prize, so why are you so fervent about Wetgorilla wanting a faithful redntion of the FF? Judge his arguments, not his preferences.


Because I don't insult people who have different views. If they try and justify blasphemy, then I would. If they insult me for not liking something the majority likes or liking something that the majority doesn't like, then I return the favour.

But Wetgorilla has shown he can do nothing but complain and insult; and that's why he needs to go.

That's an absolute statement, and therefore innaccurate. Stick to the facts.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Well let's just hope the script is exactly what Lightnin says it is and Julian plays Doom well.

I can't say I hope one way or another. They've fundamentally bastardized Doom, and I'm now at the point where often I'd rather have something that is obviously and blatantly unfaithful so there will be no confusion instead of a half-assed job that has enough similarities to give anti-comic fans more ammo for arguing people like me. If they wont do it right, I'd prefer they don't do it at all. That money could be put to better use. I hope it's bearable, though, since I do intend to watch it once.

:wolverine

[Saph]

You don't like it when people insist on making the Batman look like a carnival prize, so why are you so fervent about Wetgorilla wanting a faithful redntion of the FF? Judge his arguments, not his preferences.
You haven't been understanding me. Wetgorilla wanted a faithful FF costume. And he got it. That's what's so absolutely mind-boggling. The only thing missing from the FF costumes is the black band around the waist, and even the Thing has that. If he said he didn't like the costume for aesthetic reasons, fine. But he called them horrendous bastardizations. Completely inaccurate. And that is wrong.

[Herr Logan]

...his racialy questionable insult towards lightnin as well as attacking the mans job...

Where was this? Can you give me links?

That kind of behavior is completely unnacceptable. I just need to see proof before I can take it as fact though. You understand, right?

:wolverine

[Saph]

Where was this? Can you give me links?

That kind of behavior is completely unnacceptable. I just need to see proof before I can take it as fact though. You understand, right?

:wolverine
I've seen this post before too. I think it's in the Thing thread, or at least one of the character appreciation threads.

[Herr Logan]

You haven't been understanding me. Wetgorilla wanted a faithful FF costume. And he got it. That's what's so absolutely mind-boggling. The only thing missing from the FF costumes is the black band around the waist, and even the Thing has that. If he said he didn't like the costume for aesthetic reasons, fine. But he called them horrendous bastardizations. Completely inaccurate. And that is wrong.

I'll just leave it at that, then. I'm actually surprised at how close they are, even with the deviations. I like the costumes, personally. You just weren't making a good argument about the costumes before.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Where was this? Can you give me links?

That kind of behavior is completely unnacceptable. I just need to see proof before I can take it as fact though. You understand, right?

:wolverine

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5539268&postcount=3104

here it is,notice the monkey reference ,and he knows caliph is half black,it may seem small but coupled with venom he spewed about caliph's job i wouldn't take this lightly and i know lightnin found it offencive even though e brushed it off at the time b/c he told me

[Herr Logan]

I've seen this post before too. I think it's in the Thing thread, or at least one of the character appreciation threads.

Link, dammit!

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

I've seen this post before too. I think it's in the Thing thread, or at least one of the character appreciation threads.

there's also comments about alba not being "pure" enough to play sue,there all subtle i'd expect nothing less but the undertones are there

[Saph]

Link, dammit!

:wolverine
I'm finding it..

[Herr Logan]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5539268&postcount=3104

here it is,notice the monkey reference ,and he knows caliph is half black,it may seem small but coupled with venom he spewed about caliph's job i wouldn't take this lightly and i know lightnin found it offencive even though e brushed it off at the time b/c he told me

"...like you two monkeys..."

Is that referring to Lightnin and you?

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

"...like you two monkeys..."

Is that referring to Lightnin and you?

:wolverine

yes only i'm white and caliph is black,the argument was between me and him yet suddenly there were 2 monkeys,andif you look at his 20 things wrong thread you'll see how he talked to kel like she's crap and made attacks on lightnins job,I am not about everything being positive and have no quarell with the otherside of the coin,but mysoginist,biggoted personal attacks are uncalled for IMO

[Herr Logan]

yes only i'm white and caliph is black,the argument was between me and him yet suddenly there were 2 monkeys,andif you look at his 20 things wrong thread you'll see how he talked to kel like she's crap and made attacks on lightnins job,I am not about everything being positive and have no quarell with the otherside of the coin,but mysoginist,biggoted personal attacks are uncalled for IMO

Agreed.

I just tend to be very careful before calling a statement or person bigoted, since a lot of people throw that label and its synonyms around very casually. I still don't know what to conclude about that single post, since not only is it directed at two different people of different "races", but his own name is that of a gorilla. I don't want to be guilty of erroneously judging someone as racist if it's possible that he's using that term to imply that you guys are merely lesser primates. I know I call people "lesser animals" all the time, and it's purely an intellectually elitist remark coming from me, not bigoted.

But as for misogynistic, I agree.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Agreed.

I just tend to be very careful before calling a statement or person bigoted, since a lot of people throw that label and its synonyms around very casually. I still don't know what to conclude about that single post, since not only is it directed at two different people of different "races", but his own name is that of a gorilla. I don't want to be guilty of erroneously judging someone as racist if it's possible that he's using that term to imply that you guys are merely lesser primates. I know I call people "lesser animals" all the time, and it's purely an intellectually elitist remark coming from me, not bigoted.

But as for misogynistic, I agree.

:wolverine

I fully understand you position herr,and perhaps we were over sensitive to the comment given his past behaviour.Also i would personaly never on any level call a person of colour a monkey due to the conotations of the remark over the years but again context over a computer screen is difficult to assertain.I respect your take on the situation though,perhaps you should talk to lightnin personaly as the maliciosness has been more concentrated towards him over the months than me

[Saph]

All this talk of black and white people and monkeys is making me think of this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Kyorca/smile.gif

[Herr Logan]

I fully understand you position herr,and perhaps we were over sensitive to the comment given his past behaviour.Also i would personaly never on any level call a person of colour a monkey due to the conotations of the remark over the years but again context over a computer screen is difficult to assertain.I respect your take on the situation though,perhaps you should talk to lightnin personaly as the maliciosness has been more concentrated towards him over the months than me

You're a good guy, Hunter. Don't ever change. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

All this talk of black and white people and monkeys is making me think of this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Kyorca/smile.gif

So much for lunch! :mad:

:wolverine

[surfergirl]

Lightnin is not an optimist on the scale of Albafan, Herr. He wasn't extremely happy with Doom, until he read the script. He also was one of the main protesters when Jessica Alba was cast, although he now accepts her. I wouldn't call him someone that only sees the bright side. I think he likes what he is seeing, but not so much that anything bad he sees right through.

And being a Pessimist on the level of Wetgorilla (the mindset that everything sucks) wouldn't make the review any more factual, either.

you sum it up quite well Saph, Lightnin doesn't accept everything as "gold" just because Fantastic Four is finally being made into a movie, he needs proof to see something in a positive light. so bashing him for creating a thread in which he shares overviews of each character is absurd. he was creating a thread for the fans on the board to discuss, and there was great discussion going on. he allowed all of us to get a sense of what the characters were like from what he read on paper and did a pretty damn good job in his character reviews. he has taken what he read from the script to further build his opinions of how the movie is going to turn out what is wrong with that? nothing! if someone sees this film in a positive light it is not a crime. he has read a lot and seen the same footage all of us have. those are credible ways to build your confidence in this film.

i am sick of Wetgorilla's attitude and trolling. nothing is good enough for him even when many of his outrageous claims have been proven to be wrong. being a pessimist is one thing, if you want to have a "dooms day" attitude so be it, but don't come on this board and disrespect others' threads and opinions just because you don't like what you are seeing/reading. that shows a complete lack in character and judgement. i am tired of him attacking people on this board and through PMs just because they give credible, legit summaries of what is going on with this movie and how well it lines up with the comics in many ways, or just for sharing their honest opinions. tearing down threads that spark great discussions on the relationship between the comic and movie is getting old. calling people names, disrespecting them, and degrading other's character just because they won't join your pity party is very old. calling someone "monkey" when you know their ethnic background is a slap in the face, racist and intolerable! all in all Wet is a troll who will stop at nothing then to tear discussions, people, and threads down on this board because no one listens to his nonsense. it needs to stop. how dare he attack posters on this forum and insult them based on race, opinion and personal character.

Lightnin's script review thread is awesome and he deserves to be complemented on all of the work he put into it so that others on this board can be excited about what is to come on July 8th. it is not a crime, it is a great way to spark discussion and further interest in the movie that is bring the Fantastic Four to life on the big screen this summer. thank you Lightnin for your hard work. i know i am a little late getting in on this conversation going on in this post but i wanted to get my opinion out as well. as for Doom he sounds sinister as hell from Lightnin's review i am curious to see how his persona looks coming to life on the big screen. there has definitly been improvement from the way he was going to be presented in the Frost draft, i think we can all be happy about that much.

[Kmack]

(insults aside) good post surfergirl:):up: I totally agree.

[kittykatkr]

ya i agree with u guys. :)

[surfergirl]

(insults aside) good post surfergirl:):up: I totally agree.

thank you Kmack. i don't usually insult others but in this case i was fed up, he totally has disrespected and insulted numerous people on this board.

[Kmack]

*snaps finger* you go girl;)

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wow....this thread has gone to some interesting places...but I think it'd be best to get back to the subject of Dr. Doom.

There's much to discuss. :cool:

[Herr Logan]

Wow....this thread has gone to some interesting places...but I think it'd be best to get back to the subject of Dr. Doom.

There's much to discuss. :cool:

I'm a little confused and I was probably extremely tired when I read the first few posts in your review thread. Lightnin, did you actually read the script used for filming? I'm thinking that you did, but my memory is missing a few pieces (as usual). If so, I think it's cool that you put that thread up for everybody.

By the way, if someone comes at you with bigoted remarks of any kind in the future, feel free to send me a link to where it happened. I know you're plenty formidable on your own, but I can't stand that kind of nonsense, and I like to put my pugnacious nature to good use when I can.

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

What you just did Saph in my eyes...is put me at the same level as WG except at the other end.....and thats just as much a slam in my eyes as anything WG has said to me.......whether you meant to or not....thats how i see it....

adios.....

Ahhh....so you don't like how Saph caricatures your position (or non-position) in regards to this movie? Well, neither do I, Albafan. In fact, you're doing to me in this posting of yours (unintentionally) what Saph did to you. I have never claimed this movie was 100% bad and I've bulleted what I like about this movie in the past (people just have to read).

Some people will vehemently attack me simply because I express a little judicial thinking and come up with an opinion about this production team that is opposite to theirs. I think it's important to look at the facts concerning this production and the facts about the script.

Facts:
1 - Scripts do not contain described emotions (neither did this one as of December 12th). Which means any judgement about Doom can only be made from how the script reads (or trailers) and it appeared to me Doom was scorned because Reed caught Sue's attention. (This is a rip-off of the Hollow Man script).

2 - The origin of The Fantastic Four and Doom have been dramatically altered by having what we already know as Doom being the fifth Beatle.

3 - This movie is getting mixed reviews and the audience will be the final judge as to how entertaining this movie will be to watch.

Thanks for contributing to the idea that I am 'on a level' because it sure isn't the content of my postings that are ushering me toward that elevation. :rolleyes:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[AnotherIoanFan]

Some people will vehemently attack me simply because I express a little judicial thinking and come up with an opinion about this production team that is opposite to theirs. I think it's important to look at the facts concerning this production and the facts about the script.
Wetgorilla
:wolverine
Oh come on WG. Give it a rest. Everyone here on the whole respects everyone else's opinions whatever they are and there have been many, many brilliant discussions come about because of it. You are not being vehemently attacked because of judicial thinking - you are being criticised for being disrespectful and downright rude to people who don't deserve it. Just read back through some of your own posts. How can you possibly justify attacking and degrading Lightnin's profession?!!! Answer that please!!!! Firefighters are my personal heroes due to circumstances I have been through and that remark has been one of your most offensive to me. (Amongst many others). How can we possibly stay on topic in these threads when you constantly attack people personally? I really don't understand you at all....

Kathy

[wetgorilla]

Because I don't insult people who have different views. If they try and justify blasphemy, then I would. If they insult me for not liking something the majority likes or liking something that the majority doesn't like, then I return the favour.



Don't forget to tell him to stop dogging on things he doesn't understand. Anybody who calls the FF costumes unfaithful obviously isn't thinking straight.


Apparently you can extend your reasons for insulting people to include an opinion opposite yours. It's quite clear you either have selective memory, no boundaries governing your attacks or a talent for lying.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Kmack]

This thread should be closed, its nothing more than a war zone.

[Cypher]

(insults aside) good post surfergirl:):up: I totally agree.
Same Here! :up:

[wetgorilla]

You haven't been understanding me. Wetgorilla wanted a faithful FF costume. And he got it. That's what's so absolutely mind-boggling. The only thing missing from the FF costumes is the black band around the waist, and even the Thing has that. If he said he didn't like the costume for aesthetic reasons, fine. But he called them horrendous bastardizations. Completely inaccurate. And that is wrong.

My opinion about the movie FF costumes aren't invalid at all. IMO they are not accurate and lean more in the direction of an interpretation of the real costumes. I've posted detailed reasons for this before and I'm sure you've read them (whether you remember reading my post - who knows). I also posted a link to a site containing every costume the FF ever used.

The movie FF costumes are too leathery and padded. The Thing is wearing pants and boots. The costumes have zippers and are skin tight whereas the FF costumes used throughout the majority of their existence were quasi-loose fitted.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm a little confused and I was probably extremely tired when I read the first few posts in your review thread. Lightnin, did you actually read the script used for filming? I'm thinking that you did, but my memory is missing a few pieces (as usual). If so, I think it's cool that you put that thread up for everybody.

By the way, if someone comes at you with bigoted remarks of any kind in the future, feel free to send me a link to where it happened. I know you're plenty formidable on your own, but I can't stand that kind of nonsense, and I like to put my pugnacious nature to good use when I can.

:wolverine

Affirmative Herr.

From what I understand, what I've reviewed is the shooting script save the major changes and completely new footage shot for Act III (that the $20M was dumped into for April's shoots). So I really have no idea what the final ending will be since Tim Story has apparently shot two different alternate conclusions.

By the way, I'll let you know if anything comes up again in the future. Thanks. :cool:

[wetgorilla]

but his racialy questionable insult towards lightnin as well as attacking the mans job(in another thread)along with the disparaging remarks in this one smacks not of hard fought debate -ala saph and herr-right now- but of a more insidious agenda IMO

I promised someone on this thread I wouldn't reply to anymore attacks on me - but this one is such a fabricated lie about me that I have no choice. If you had half the brain and an ounce of integrity you wouldn't have made such an off target claim this one. If you knew anything about me or my participations in life you would crawl into a closet after having accused me of making a racial attack on anyone.

I challenge you to produce a posting where I made a racial attack on anyone. You and Saph (for trying to support your claim with a claim of his own) have sunk below what I even thought you two were capable of.

The only one, Hunter with an insidious agenda appears to be you. Try discrediting me with the facts governing my comments not with fabricated lies of this sad magnitude.

Good luck and try again. I have ZERO respect for you.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wetgorilla:

Apparently, I am going to have to enlist your assistance in getting this thread back on topic--since all of this digression seems to be revolving around you. This thread was never meant to be a "Witness" stand, and if you feel your reputation here has been tarnished, I think there are more effective and appropriate places to "repair" it.

But as it is, we've lost 4 pages now to this bull, and the essence of the Dr. Doom convo has been lost. It appears that you're getting your ass handed to you here, but perhaps it's because you yourself have put forth so much hypocritical effort to "discredit" others in this forum. :rolleyes: As the scripture says, "You reap what you sow."

At any rate--the thread belongs to Dr. Doom and not this pettiness. I'm asking everyone to take the higher road here so we don't lose this thread to the Mod's key. It's come to far and grown to be too successful of a thread to sacrifice to this foolishness.

[wetgorilla]

Agreed.

I just tend to be very careful before calling a statement or person bigoted, since a lot of people throw that label and its synonyms around very casually. I still don't know what to conclude about that single post, since not only is it directed at two different people of different "races", but his own name is that of a gorilla. I don't want to be guilty of erroneously judging someone as racist if it's possible that he's using that term to imply that you guys are merely lesser primates. I know I call people "lesser animals" all the time, and it's purely an intellectually elitist remark coming from me, not bigoted.

But as for misogynistic, I agree.

:wolverine

Hi, H.L.

That is exactly how it was made and those guys know it too. Hunter Rider is looking for ammo against me and, unfortunately, chose the wrong subject. It's insulting when the facts of a person's life is halfwittedly attacked.

I'd like to ask whether or not Hunter Rider has given a speech in admiration of Martin Luther King in front of dozens of corporate executives - I have. I wonder if Hunter Rider has contributed financially to any minority scholarship funds - I have. I wonder if Hunter Rider has dated anyone of color and considers anyone outside his race as close as family - I do. I wonder if Hunter Rider's number one hero is black - Mine is. I wonder if Hunter Rider has ever considered whether or not I'm 100% white - I doubt it. In fact (after this fiasco) I wonder if Hunter Rider can think at all.

I'm sure Hunter Rider is getting a kick out of this (because this IS the only time I've really been annoyed with anyone on this forum). But, an accusation like this needs to be addressed and brought to light, H.L.

As for my attitudes being misogynistic (for those who don't know what that is - it's something characterized by a hatred of women) that is incorrect also, Herr. Hell, I've employed more women and have more women friends than men. So, I hope this puts a rest to all of this b*******.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Hi, H.L.

That is exactly how it was made and those guys know it too. Hunter Rider is looking for ammo against me and, unfortunately, chose the wrong subject. It's insulting when the facts of a person's life is halfwittedly attacked.

I'd like to ask whether or not Hunter Rider has given a speech in admiration of Martin Luther King in front of dozens of corporate executives - I have. I wonder if Hunter Rider has contributed financially to any minority scholarship funds - I have. I wonder if Hunter Rider has dated anyone of color and considers anyone outside his race as close as family - I do. I wonder if Hunter Rider's number one hero is black - Mine is. I wonder if Hunter Rider has ever considered whether or not I'm 100% white - I doubt it. In fact (after this fiasco) I wonder if Hunter Rider can think at all.

I'm sure Hunter Rider is getting a kick out of this (because this IS the only time I've really been annoyed with anyone on this forum). But, an accusation like this needs to be addressed and brought to light, H.L.

As for my attitudes being misogynistic (for those who don't know what that is - it's something characterized by a hatred of women) that is incorrect also, Herr. Hell, I've employed more women and have more women friends than men. So, I hope this puts a rest to all of this b*******.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Fair enough. As for the misogynistic part, I was referring to some comments I've seen from you, not your character in general.

:wolverine

[Mrs. Fantastic]

This movie is getting mixed reviews and the audience will be the final judge as to how entertaining this movie will be to watch.

No argument with the last half of the sentence. A question about the first: where has the movie been seen? Are we talking official screenings or bootlegs (or alleged bootlegs)? I've heard of the latter, but not the former. Just wondering if I missed something.

Mrs. F.

[wetgorilla]

This movie is getting mixed reviews and the audience will be the final judge as to how entertaining this movie will be to watch.

No argument with the last half of the sentence. A question about the first: where has the movie been seen? Are we talking official screenings or bootlegs (or alleged bootlegs)? I've heard of the latter, but not the former. Just wondering if I missed something.

Mrs. F.

I should rephrase that, MF. I meant the script is getting mixed reviews from the critics.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[CaptainStacy]

What "critics"?

[Iron Maiden]

This thread should be closed, its nothing more than a war zone.

No, let's just stick to the topic....But with new rules. You can attack the point of view but not the person. The Master has spoken. Disobey at your own peril.:doom:

http://img170.echo.cx/img170/7869/emperor2uv.jpg

[Whack Arnolds]

Doom looks so bad ass in the new movie!!!

[Hunter Rider]

I promised someone on this thread I wouldn't reply to anymore attacks on me - but this one is such a fabricated lie about me that I have no choice. If you had half the brain and an ounce of integrity you wouldn't have made such an off target claim this one. If you knew anything about me or my participations in life you would crawl into a closet after having accused me of making a racial attack on anyone.

I challenge you to produce a posting where I made a racial attack on anyone. You and Saph (for trying to support your claim with a claim of his own) have sunk below what I even thought you two were capable of.

The only one, Hunter with an insidious agenda appears to be you. Try discrediting me with the facts governing my comments not with fabricated lies of this sad magnitude.

Good luck and try again. I have ZERO respect for you.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

first of all your under the mistaken impression i care what you think.secondly i provided the link with the monkey comment,As for the attacks on Lightnin's job and your disrespect of Kel ? just click on your profile and read your 20 things wrong thread.The questioning of the mans integrity is in this very thread..As for your very well worded and completely unprovable attempt to drive a wedge between me and herr,well done.Look around you ,the reason everyone is in this thread haveing a go at you has nothing to do with your negative views on this movie and everything to do with your dispicible attitude towards other posters.Do you see other fans who are unhappy with this movie getting this type of heat ? i don't see Herr getting and entire thread of hate or HOC or Boom or any of the others,just you.The reason being b/c your agenda is to stir up trouble and cause unpleasentness and ive got to hand it to you,your damn good at it.However we all know now,the bulk of this forum is clued into wetgate,so stay or go it's now irrelevant

[Saph]

The Thing is wearing pants and boots.You mean like he is wearing in the comics right now? :rolleyes: The costumes have zippers and are skin tight whereas the FF costumes used throughout the majority of their existence were quasi-loose fitted.The costumes in the comics right now have zippers. John Byrne drew the costumes as skin-tight. A lot of people drew the FF costumes as skin-tight, too. Wetgorilla, the FF do not have one specific costume like Superman and Spider-Man. They have had many variations, in fact, issues #1 and #2 featured the FF without costumes. The Thing has even had a helmet for god sakes. Even the Ultimate costumes are just a variation of the suits that appeared in FF #3, by your definition, they're more faithful than John Byrne's suits, since the ultimate ones are quasi-loose fitted.

Must I repeat to you about what makes the FF suits faithful? Well, they're blue, just like every representation in the comics. They have a black band around their shoulder area, and black gloves and boots. While some costumes have those characteristics being white, black is an equally, if not more, valid colour.

Wetgorilla, this argument is just making you look more and more stupid. You are probably the only one who would call the costumes unfaithful around here, and we have fans that have read the comics since the first issue came out. Surely they would know the classic representation of the costumes and how the movie costumes fit with it?

[surfergirl]

No, let's just stick to the topic....But with new rules. You can attack the point of view but not the person. The Master has spoken. Disobey at your own peril.:doom:



http://img170.echo.cx/img170/7869/emperor2uv.jpg
i like that rule, there is nothing wrong with a civilized debate.

[Lady Stormcrow]

Must I repeat to you about what makes the FF suits faithful? Well, they're blue, just like every representation in the comics. They have a black band around their shoulder area, and black gloves and boots. While some costumes have those characteristics being white, black is an equally, if not more, valid colour.


Totally agree with you.
What I love about the FF costumes, are that nearly every artist who has put thier own take on them, has used slight variations. Film is another art form, so why shouldnt they show thier own perspective of the costumes? (A perspective which I love, by the way. I like the fact that Sue's neck line is a bit lower, to give it added femeninity)

[Kmack]

No, let's just stick to the topic....But with new rules. You can attack the point of view but not the person. The Master has spoken. Disobey at your own peril.:doom:

http://img170.echo.cx/img170/7869/emperor2uv.jpg
What took you so long;)

[Mrs. Fantastic]

I should rephrase that, MF. I meant the script is getting mixed reviews from the critics.

Thanks for the clarification.

Mrs. F.