I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[Dark Phantom]

I'm sorry everyone, but I have to agree. I like this origin better. I agree, it could have been a lot more faithful to the comics, but I'm satisfied with what we have.

Let me just say this:
I didn't really pay attention to updates on the FF movie. I didn't know what they were doing with Doom's origin. So when I saw the first FF trailer, I couldn't tell the difference if they changed Doom's origin. Sure, I noticed Victor along on the space mission when I watched it again and payed more close attention. Still for that few clips that I saw in the trailer, I couldn't tell if Doom actually gained superpowers along with the FF.

[Kelly]

LOL....ooooh wow.....this is entertaining.......

[user123456789]

Yeah...having your skin transform into metal is a hell of a lot more real than putting on an advanced battle suit.

I get it.

WHAT?? So thats what the trailers meant when they tell Doom, "Your biophysical bla bla bla is changing... oh thats not good news... i think ill get a second opinion"?????? He's actually TURNING into metal? thats hella gay.

[Sardaukar]

Very entertaining! :)

It's amazing how the masterful writers and artists of the genre can spend decades building up possibly the greatest comic book villain ever...

...and with one single FOX executive-approved script, the character can be changed...


...for the better! :p

[RedIsNotBlue]

I don't think there will be a sequel.

With all of the marketing, advertising, merchandise, etc. it shows that Fox has complete faith that this movie will make money and they plan on making at least 3. And Julian is singed on for 2 movies. Why don't you think there will be a sequel?

[Sardaukar]

With all of the marketing, advertising, merchandise, etc. it shows that Fox has complete faith that this movie will make money and they plan on making at least 3. And Julian is singed on for 2 movies. Why don't you think there will be a sequel?

Because I just have a bad feeling about this movie's prospects for success. And believe me, it has little to do with the changing of a certain character.

Whatever...I could be wrong.

[Kelly]

Very entertaining! :)

It's amazing how the masterful writers and artists of the genre can spend decades building up possibly the greatest comic book villain ever...

...and with one single FOX executive-approved script, the character is changed...


...for the better! :p

Well maybe not changed for the better....but it does seem that there are some out there that are happy with those changes....and i guess thats ok....we all have our ideas....and i guess thats why the world is a pretty cool place.....but it has been an entertaining exchange....and Sar...thank you for showing me that some here can be extremely patient and not patronizing to those that maybe don't have the knowledge of Doom but are looking forward to the movie doom....thats very refreshing....

i know you aren't happy w/ Doom....and i wish you were....

[Sardaukar]

Well maybe not changed for the better....but it does seem that there are some out there that are happy with those changes....and i guess thats ok....we all have our ideas....and i guess thats why the world is a pretty cool place.....but it has been an entertaining exchange....and Sar...thank you for showing me that some here can be extremely patient and not patronizing to those that maybe don't have the knowledge of Doom but are looking forward to the movie doom....thats very refreshing....

i know you aren't happy w/ Doom....and i wish you were....

Thanks Albafan!

You are Albafan, aren't you? (it's been awhile) ;)

I doubt I'm as nice as you seem to think I am, but it's great of you to say so.

And I hope this movie's good and you enjoy it!

[Kelly]

Thanks Albafan!

You are Albafan, aren't you? (it's been awhile) ;)

I doubt I'm as nice as you seem to think I am, but it's great of you to say so.

And I hope this movie's good and you enjoy it!


Yes check under the avvy...ooops above the avvy...lol....and i have a feeling you are nicer than YOU think you are....LOL....i have a feeling i'll enjoy the movie ALOT....

[Sauron]

I have thought about this and I have come to this conclusion. Doom's movie origin is 10 times better than his comic book origin. I hear some crying and complaining that it isn't faithful but faithful does not always great. His comic book origin is not believable, ridiculous, and unrealistic. His movie origin is believable and much better in the sense that he has a closer connection to the Fantasatic Four and a BETTER reason for being Doctor Doom. Does anyone else feel the same as me?
First of all it's not suppose to be realistic, it is a COMIC BOOK! Meant to be outside the realm of reality. Thinking like yours is what ruins comic book movies. You should not be ashamed of where the character comes from. If you like the comic and are the person to make that into a movie you should respect it and be faithful.

I think the movie origin is fine but, The reason about his mask is much better in the comic, and it's a shame they won't have Doom put the mask on too quick after it's made just to totally screw up his face in his haste. I have always loved that part of Doom's story that he was so vane and just wanted to cover up a small scar and made it so much worse.

The reaction of the audience would be great. :doom:

[Dr.Crazy]

I have thought about this and I have come to this conclusion. Doom's movie origin is 10 times better than his comic book origin. I hear some crying and complaining that it isn't faithful but faithful does not always great. His comic book origin is not believable, ridiculous, and unrealistic. His movie origin is believable and much better in the sense that he has a closer connection to the Fantasatic Four and a BETTER reason for being Doctor Doom. Does anyone else feel the same as me?

I do. The original comics Doom was crap. CRAP. I hope the Doom ultimate origin is in this movie because lets face it, the 1960's Doom origin isn't just outdated, it sucks for 2000's. Tim Story will make a great Doom origin I believe and I think it'll be good.

Doom will be happy for the movie!:doom:

[ShadowBoxing]

I have thought about this and I have come to this conclusion. Doom's movie origin is 10 times better than his comic book origin. I hear some crying and complaining that it isn't faithful but faithful does not always great. His comic book origin is not believable, ridiculous, and unrealistic. His movie origin is believable and much better in the sense that he has a closer connection to the Fantasatic Four and a BETTER reason for being Doctor Doom. Does anyone else feel the same as me?

As Doom would say "Bah!"

In my list of top three origins is Wolverine (Origin and Weapon X), Batman (Year One), and number 1 Dr. Doom. The story is sooooo much more compelling in the comic. I think what did it for me was when he placed the hot metal mask on his face, worsening his scars, and running out into the snow to cool it off. The cinamatic quality of those panels by John Bryne were reason enough to place it as number 1 on my list.

The origin explores Doom's narciscistic tendencies, arogance, and shear hatred of Reed Richards. One of the reasons I looked forward to an FF film was to see this origin played out correctly, but again Marvel screwed it up

[Kelly]

Well i don't know how the movie Doom will turn out....i hope we have a great nemesis for the F4....but i have to disagree on the UFF Doom....sorry....but ummmmm ... no

[Spider-Fan]

I prefer his comic origin much more, but I haven't seen the movie. I am hoping he turns out well. Doom is my only concern for this movie right now. He is my favorite villain, and I hope there is enough of him in there.

[Dr.Crazy]

I prefer his comic origin much more, but I haven't seen the movie. I am hoping he turns out well. Doom is my only concern for this movie right now. He is my favorite villain, and I hope there is enough of him in there.

Your kiddin me right? His comics origin was CRAP! CRAAAAP! As JJJ said in Spiderman 1 "crap crap mega crap".

His origin must be made for todays world not the 1960s because maybe you lived in the 60s I don't know or care but times changed.

[ShadowBoxing]

Your kiddin me right? His comics origin was CRAP! CRAAAAP! As JJJ said in Spiderman 1 "crap crap mega crap".

His origin must be made for todays world not the 1960s because maybe you lived in the 60s I don't know or care but times changed.

I really think most people have not read Dr. Doom entire origin.

someone get me the issue of Marvel saga that outline Doom's origin

[Spider-Fan]

What is outdated? Lab explosions happen. People get scarred. He was just too vain to let his scar show, and he inevitably made it worse. Also him making an armor that powerful shows how much of a genius he is.

[RedIsNotBlue]

First of all it's not suppose to be realistic, it is a COMIC BOOK! Meant to be outside the realm of reality. Thinking like yours is what ruins comic book movies. You should not be ashamed of where the character comes from. If you like the comic and are the person to make that into a movie you should respect it and be faithful.

I think the movie origin is fine but, The reason about his mask is much better in the comic, and it's a shame they won't have Doom put the mask on too quick after it's made just to totally screw up his face in his haste. I have always loved that part of Doom's story that he was so vane and just wanted to cover up a small scar and made it so much worse.

The reaction of the audience would be great. :doom:

Whether you like it or not comic book movies are being made into fantasy movies that are still somewhat believeable. It is basically like this. What if we took these characters from the comic and put them in the real world? They want people to believe that what they are seeing could actually happen and therefore they will become attached to what they are seeing and connect with it. And Doom's origin belongs in the comics...not in the movie...timewise and ridiculous-wise.

[Kelly]

Whether you like it or not comic book movies are being made into fantasy movies that are still somewhat believeable. It is basically like this. What if we took these characters from the comic and put them in the real world? And Doom's origin belongs in the comics...not in the movie...timewise and ridiculous-wise.


in your opinion of course...;)

[RedIsNotBlue]

in your opinion of course...;)

Read the edited version.

[Dr.Crazy]

Whether you like it or not comic book movies are being made into fantasy movies that are still somewhat believeable. It is basically like this. What if we took these characters from the comic and put them in the real world? They want people to believe that what they are seeing could actually happen and therefore they will become attached to what they are seeing and connect with it. And Doom's origin belongs in the comics...not in the movie...timewise and ridiculous-wise.

Exactly.

[Dr.Crazy]

What is outdated? Lab explosions happen. People get scarred. He was just too vain to let his scar show, and he inevitably made it worse. Also him making an armor that powerful shows how much of a genius he is.

Outdated? How about scars. Sure, in the 60's scars lasted until a persons death but in todays world there are surgerys pills medicines etc to fix those and make it look like you never had them. Yes, he is a genius but making the armor? No, its because he owns and operates Latvaeria. Anyone could build a stupid armor.

Please dude, get your facts straight.

[Spider-Fan]

Burn scars cannot be healed in many cases, and these are what Doom suffered. Could you build armor by the way? I bet not, so shut up. Your point about that was stupid. If anything, more people could run a country then a build a sophisticated armor like that. Get YOUR facts straight, little man.

[Dr.Crazy]

Burn scars cannot be healed in many cases, and these are what Doom suffered. Could you build armor by the way? I bet not, so shut up. Your point about that was stupid. If anything, more people could run a country then a build a sophisticated armor like that. Get YOUR facts straight, little man.

Burned scars cannot be healed? PUH-LEASE! Scars can be healed, people just have to have money to afford these medications to get them healed. Does every single human being have enough money? NO! I cant build armor? Neither can you. Thats the pot calling the kettle black. You tell me to shut up? How classy. You obviously know you cannot be proved right so you just tell me to shut up to draw the argument into a stalemate huh? YOU get your facts straight you little BOY!

[Muze]

The FF gets powers. Why does he have to get them? There would be no reason why he couldn't have avoided the cosmic rays somehow.

Why does he have to be in a relationship with Sue Storm? In Daredevil, Kingpin wasn't in love with Elektra. In Superman, Lex Luthor wasn't in love with Lois Lane. In Batman Begins, Crane wasn't in love with Rachael.

devil's advocate here but...

1. Doom's in a relationship with Sue to show just how shallow and competitive he really is. it sets up the enmity between he and Reed. that and it gives you a convenient reason for Sue being on the ship with all of them. it's Doom's space station and she's 'his girl.'

2. Joker courted Vicki Vale in the '89 version of Batman

3. Rachel wasn't really a love interest. she was Bruce's conscience and an old friend (supposedly a good deal older than him).

4. Crane wasn't in love with Rachel because he's intimidated by powerful women. she was a powerful woman he wanted to conquer; hence the flaming horse stunt at the end. Doom doesn't have that problem.

5. Luthor(brains) and Superman(brawn) aren't competitors the way Reed(brains) and Doom(brains) are. so, if Lois is attracted to Superman, it's a huge stretch to see her attracted to Lex. Reed and Doom are more similar; one's just more of a bstard.

6. Daredevil was a horrible movie that should have never been a love story.

[Muze]

Because I respect an enemy who gives himself powers more than one who gets them by accident.

Doom[imitation]: "this was no accident. power is my birthright."

honestly, did you guys expect them to faithfully retell Doom's quest to free his accused witch mother's soul from a nether-dimension, his trip to ESU, and his journey into the mountains where he met some crazy cult and became Doom? that would have taken up just as much, if not more, time than Bruce Wayne's shortened origin in Batman Begins. and for what? he's just the bad guy. you still have to introduce and make people love the Fantastic Four. remember them? maybe Fantastic Four was just the wrong movie to bring to the big screen. perhaps they should have gone with the Submariner. guh.

[Spider-Fan]

Burned scars cannot be healed? PUH-LEASE! Scars can be healed, people just have to have money to afford these medications to get them healed. Does every single human being have enough money? NO! I cant build armor? Neither can you. Thats the pot calling the kettle black. You tell me to shut up? How classy. You obviously know you cannot be proved right so you just tell me to shut up to draw the argument into a stalemate huh? YOU get your facts straight you little BOY!

You proved my point. It takes a person with a certain level of intellect to make an armor like that. Before you make a point, think it out. You just admitted you were wrong.

[Dr.Crazy]

You proved my point. It takes a person with a certain level of intellect to make an armor like that. Before you make a point, think it out. You just admitted you were wrong.

You are the one who is wrong. You want to act all smart, go to school and then maybe we can talk but as of right now, I am the victor of this argument so just leave me alone and let me be you insolent person.

[ShadowBoxing]

Dr. Doom.

Victor Von Doom was born under two gypsies (who are still very much persecuted today). His mother was slain when he was but an infant. His Father, Werner Von Doom, a gyspie know for healing, was commishioned to save Latverian Baroness. He failed to save her since her disease was beyond the treatment of gypsy remedies. The Baron was incredibly distraut and put a price on Werner's head. Werner fled into the harsh terrain of a cold eastern europe. With the horse now dead Werner on foot managed to carry the infirm young Doom back to their tribe. The trek cost Werner his life. With his dying words he made Doom swear he would become strong and powerful enough to avenge the deaths of himself and Doom's mother. Over the next years Doom obsessed himself with studying math, science, history especially of the black arts (which he discovered his mother also possessed). Doom headed towards the states and entered empire state university in their science program. Reed Richards roomed next store to Doom, falsely assuming a kindred spirit with him. Reed offered to help Doom with one of his experiments, however when he questioned Doom's formulas. Doom became infruiated and did not request Reed assitance again until he was ready to test it. Reed flipped the switch to the machine, and Doom was scarred by the explosion of the head piece. Doom was expelled, and blamed Richards for sabotage. Doom nowed minorly scarred believed his perfection had been tarished forever. He sought a remedy for this amongst an order of monks in Tibet. He learned from them the black magic once possessed by his mother. With the secrets now within him he decided to create a suit of armor, a new perfect body to replace the one which had been tarished forever. The armor combined the black magics of the Tibetian monks and the sciences of american technology. In his blind ambition and arogance made him feel as though he was immune to pain, therefore he put on his mask (the final piece of his new body) while it was still red hot burning and scarring his face far worse than the explosion ever would. In agony he fled outside the cavern and into a snow blank outside. Now Doom's face was truly the horror he thought it had originally become. He renamed himself Doctor Doom, a man he felt who was above weakness. With his new suit and black magic Doom returned to Latveria and reclaimed the throne for himself by shear force. Dr. Doom however was not satisfied and turned his sights towards world domination. Doom sought to use Reed Richards, who had recently acquired fame as Mr. Fantastic, as a pawn in this scheme. Thus bringing him in contact with his sworn enemies from hence forth, the Fantastic Four

[ShadowBoxing]

thats sounds like a cool origin to me

[ShadowBoxing]

Burned scars cannot be healed? PUH-LEASE! Scars can be healed, people just have to have money to afford these medications to get them healed. Does every single human being have enough money? NO! I cant build armor? Neither can you. Thats the pot calling the kettle black. You tell me to shut up? How classy. You obviously know you cannot be proved right so you just tell me to shut up to draw the argument into a stalemate huh? YOU get your facts straight you little BOY!

The point of Doom's origin was not whether he could or could not fix a scar. Doom promised his dying father he would be without weakness, with fault. To him the scar represented a fault, a weakness. No amount of surgury could correct it, especially since surgury would prove he needed other people, again which would be a weakness (to him). That is why he made the suit of armor and destroyed his own face, because he wanted a new perfect body to replace the old one.

[Spider-Fan]

You are the one who is wrong. You want to act all smart, go to school and then maybe we can talk but as of right now, I am the victor of this argument so just leave me alone and let me be you insolent person.

What? You said anyone could build armor, and then you told me you couldn't. This shows that you were wrong, oh and on a medical website they clearly state that scars cannt be completely removed, just minimized or greatly improved. On a MEDICAL website. So, you are wrong again, as usual.

[ShadowBoxing]

What? You said anyone could build armor, and then you told me you couldn't. This shows that you were wrong, oh and on a medical website they clearly state that scars cannt be completely removed, just minimized or greatly improved. On a MEDICAL website. So, you are wrong again, as usual.

Furthermore he didn't really have to pay for the armor since he designed and the tibetian monks who taught his mother black magic built it (old school armor building style)

[Caliber]

I have thought about this and I have come to this conclusion. Doom's movie origin is 10 times better than his comic book origin. I hear some crying and complaining that it isn't faithful but faithful does not always great. His comic book origin is not believable, ridiculous, and unrealistic. His movie origin is believable and much better in the sense that he has a closer connection to the Fantasatic Four and a BETTER reason for being Doctor Doom. Does anyone else feel the same as me?


I disargee but understand your point. Doom comic origin is much better though. He went through a process that prepared for his choices and fights later. You see his character become Doom.

[Spider-Fan]

The point of Doom's origin was not whether he could or could not fix a scar. Doom promised his dying father he would be without weakness, with fault. To him the scar represented a fault, a weakness. No amount of surgury could correct it, especially since surgury would prove he needed other people, again which would be a weakness (to him). That is why he made the suit of armor and destroyed his own face, because he wanted a new perfect body to replace the old one.


Bravo. You hit the nail on the head.

I will say that I understand the changes to Doom, but I still feel his comic book origin is better. I am just hoping he has enough of his comic personality at this point.

[Caliber]

Bravo. You hit the nail on the head.

I will say that I understand the changes to Doom, but I still feel his comic book origin is better. I am just hoping he has enough of his comic personality at this point.

It looks like he has his personality from what has been shown.

[Spider-Fan]

He does. Based on the trailers, I like his personality. He has a menacing look before the accident. That is why I see promise in Doom.

[Raiden]

I think that, if they wanted to fully realize Dr. Doom's comic origin, it'd be impossible to do it in a Fantastic Four movie. You have 4 main heroes, who all have their own little story on how to deal with the aftermath of the incident. Then you have to pause the movie to show the journey that made Dr. Doom who he is. In this movie, Dr. Doom is merely one of the emsemble cast, so it is more convenient to have his origin criss-cross with F4, and still have room for character development and exciting climax. Imagine if they try to show how Joker became Joker in the Batman sequel; that'd take quite awhile and Batman would be left out in the meantime.

Dr. Doom perhaps could get his own spin-off movie, like Magnetic and Wolverine will do. I think his popularity will get enough fans to make it into a box office hit.

[Caliber]

I think that, if they wanted to fully realize Dr. Doom's comic origin, it'd be impossible to do it in a Fantastic Four movie. You have 4 main heroes, who all have their own little story on how to deal with the aftermath of the incident. Then you have to pause the movie to show the journey that made Dr. Doom who he is. In this movie, Dr. Doom is mere one of the emsemble, so it is more convenient to have his origin criss-cross with F4, and still have room for character development and exciting climax. Imagine if they try to show how Joker became Joker in the Batman sequel; that'd take quite awhile and Batman would be left out in the meantime.

Dr. Doom perhaps could get his own spin-off movie, like Magnetic and Wolverine will do. I think his popularity will get enough fans to make it into a box office hit.

I hope they do show more in a sequal because its complicated to explain his origin in full detail. If it was a three hour movie maybe but not a two hour.

[GoblinScrier]

I am confident that not only we will get a sequel but in the sequel, we will establish Doom as monarch of Latveria, he will have his people build armies of robots, etc. With a little luck, he will have his faithful retainer Boris at his side.

We will get more comic Doom elements in F4:2 and then with a little luck, we will get a Dr. Doom solo film. What a great way to show the history of the man, the gypsies, a plan against the F4, a typical day in Latveria. All kinds of good stuff.

[Dr.Crazy]

What? You said anyone could build armor, and then you told me you couldn't. This shows that you were wrong, oh and on a medical website they clearly state that scars cannt be completely removed, just minimized or greatly improved. On a MEDICAL website. So, you are wrong again, as usual.

Wow, you think your all big great and that. Well you are wrong and I am right, just face it. Im getting sick of you and your pathetic games. I am the victor and you are the loser. Unlike you, my time isn't worth being wasted by a pitiful argumentative person like you.

[Spider-Fan]

Ah, another person who doesn't like to lose. Well, I have PROVED you wrong, and yet you haven't even tried to defend yourself. You hide under the "I win you lose" excuse which is cowardly and weak (not to mention wrong).

[Dr.Crazy]

Ah, another person who doesn't like to lose. Well, I have PROVED you wrong, and yet you haven't even tried to defend yourself. You hide under the "I win you lose" excuse which is cowardly and weak (not to mention wrong). Doom would be disappointed.

I think you are a real jerk you know that. You know I won yet you just be like a four year old and complain. DO YOU WANT SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE?!

[Spider-Fan]

What? I see why you call yourself Dr.Crazy. You are whining. Not me.

[Dr.Crazy]

What? I see why you call yourself Dr.Crazy. You are whining. Not me.

Ah, making fun of my name. What a classact. I'm not going to pull your classless acts and make fun of your name but you know what, your pitiful insults show what kind of a person you are. Weak.

[Spider-Fan]

I think you are a real jerk you know that. You know I won yet you just be like a four year old and complain. DO YOU WANT SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE?!

And I am the immature one?

[Dr.Crazy]

And I am the immature one?

Of course you are. You have no respect for people above you.

[Kelly]

ok...guys cut it out......stop w/ the name-calling and call a truce...





ok....back to doom....:doom:

[Dr.Crazy]

ok...guys cut it out......stop w/ the name-calling and call a truce...





ok....back to doom....:doom:

I stopped it a while ago but the jerk won't quit.

[Kelly]

I stopped it a while ago but the jerk won't quit.


See there ya go again.....come on guys......just call it a late night misunderstanding and move on....

[Spider-Fan]

This exchange is funny to me personally. I would much rather discuss Doom however, so I'll let this guy say what he wants.

[Dr.Crazy]

This exchange is funny to me personally. I would much rather discuss Doom however, so I'll let this guy say what he wants.

Sure whatever. Prove it. Talk about Doom in your next post and thats not a request, thatsa DEMAND!

[Sardaukar]

devil's advocate here but...

1. Doom's in a relationship with Sue to show just how shallow and competitive he really is. it sets up the enmity between he and Reed. that and it gives you a convenient reason for Sue being on the ship with all of them. it's Doom's space station and she's 'his girl.'

2. Joker courted Vicki Vale in the '89 version of Batman

3. Rachel wasn't really a love interest. she was Bruce's conscience and an old friend (supposedly a good deal older than him).

4. Crane wasn't in love with Rachel because he's intimidated by powerful women. she was a powerful woman he wanted to conquer; hence the flaming horse stunt at the end. Doom doesn't have that problem.

5. Luthor(brains) and Superman(brawn) aren't competitors the way Reed(brains) and Doom(brains) are. so, if Lois is attracted to Superman, it's a huge stretch to see her attracted to Lex. Reed and Doom are more similar; one's just more of a bstard.

6. Daredevil was a horrible movie that should have never been a love story.

My point is that you don't need to manufacture a love triangle to have a successful movie. Over 40 years of FF continuity has existed without a Susan Richards/DD relationship.

In the Superman comics there have been issues where Luthor lusted over Lois. It could easily have been put into the first movie, but Donner wisely didn't.

[Herr Logan]

Okay, let me get this straight....

You're fine with cosmic rays giving people the ability to stretch, turn invisible and start on ****ing fire and fly.

And yet you're worried about something that is conceivably within the realm of possibility?


Just to add...

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20010630/bob8.asp

Facts and clear-headed reasoning have no place here! :mad:

:) :up:

:wolverine

[Spider-Fan]

I am confident that not only we will get a sequel but in the sequel, we will establish Doom as monarch of Latveria, he will have his people build armies of robots, etc. With a little luck, he will have his faithful retainer Boris at his side.

We will get more comic Doom elements in F4:2 and then with a little luck, we will get a Dr. Doom solo film. What a great way to show the history of the man, the gypsies, a plan against the F4, a typical day in Latveria. All kinds of good stuff.

First off, Dr.Crazy, I do not answer to you, so don't act like I do. You know what? I am just going to put you on my ignore list and dispose of you once and for all.

As far as Doom in sequels, I am quite confident that Doom will be the Magneto of this franchise and will be in all the movies. I also think in FF2 he will be ruler of Latveria, or at least he better be. Like I said before, I just want to see Doom's personality in this movie.

[Dr.Crazy]

First off, Dr.Crazy, I do not answer to you, so don't act like I do. You know what? I am just going to put you on my ignore list and dispose of you once and for all.

As will I because quite frankly, your starting to annoy me you nonreasoner. And what I am? Trash? You'll "dispose" of me. Where did you get your vocab list from, a 3rd world country publics school?

[Sardaukar]

Doom[imitation]: "this was no accident. power is my birthright."

honestly, did you guys expect them to faithfully retell Doom's quest to free his accused witch mother's soul from a nether-dimension, his trip to ESU, and his journey into the mountains where he met some crazy cult and became Doom? that would have taken up just as much, if not more, time than Bruce Wayne's shortened origin in Batman Begins. and for what? he's just the bad guy. you still have to introduce and make people love the Fantastic Four. remember them? maybe Fantastic Four was just the wrong movie to bring to the big screen. perhaps they should have gone with the Submariner. guh.

No.

I don't expect a perfect retelling of Doom's origin. You don't have include all that in order to remain true to the character. But also, there's no need to actually add a whole bunch of stuff (i.e. romantic triangles) that wasn't there to begin with.

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, nonreasoner is such a sophisticated insult.

[Kelly]

i'm gonna put both of ya'll on ignore.....LOL

[Spider-Fan]

You know your right. I shall stay on topic. This series of posts has been pointless and rather unneccessary.

[Dr.Crazy]

You know your right. I shall stay on topic. This series of posts has been pointless and rather unneccessary.

I'm sorry JMAfan, I don't mean to bother you too but you should blame Spider-Fan930, he instigated the whole situation.

And Spider-Fan, you participated in the so called pointless and unneccessary posts. Don't be a jerk to me.:unishr:

[Kurosawa]

No.

I don't expect a perfect retelling of Doom's origin. You don't have include all that in order to remain true to the character. But also, there's no need to actually add a whole bunch of stuff (i.e. romantic triangles) that wasn't there to begin with.

Exactly. They didn't mangle Doom's origin and disgrace his character due to time constraints; they did it due to creativity and taste constraints.

Even if this character that they created wasn't supposed to be Doom, he'd be a lame-ass punk.

If the movie fails (and I think that's entirely possible), it'll be due to the horrible villian more than anything.

[Herr Logan]

Burn scars cannot be healed in many cases, and these are what Doom suffered. Could you build armor by the way? I bet not, so shut up. Your point about that was stupid. If anything, more people could run a country then a build a sophisticated armor like that. Get YOUR facts straight, little man.

Now that was cold. Cold enough to cool a warm bottle o' Gatorade. Here, hold this for a few minutes...

Back to the issue at hand... that was deservedly cold. :up:

EDIT: Now that I've been shown the mature and effective way to make things happen... Hold my Gatorade. thats not a request, thatsa DEMAND! :rolleyes: :D

:wolverine

[Spider-Fan]

Now that was cold. Cold enough to cool a warm bottle o' Gatorade. Here, hold this for a few minutes...

Back to the issue at hand... that was deservedly cold. :up:

Thanks. It is amazing what frustration will bring you to do.

[Dr.Crazy]

Thanks.

Oh yeah, cheer when somebody is on your side but when your proved wrong just stay quiet.

[Dr.Crazy]

I wanna talk about Doom as the next person but please!

Doom rules!

[Herr Logan]

Somebody ought to put up a sign for the next while that reads "Adult Swim."

Then again, looking back to the opening post... that wouldn't make a damn bit of sense.

ShadowBoxing: It's great to see when someone not only knows the historical content of the topic at hand, but understands the psychological implications. :up:

:wolverine

[Sardaukar]

Kurosawa, Herr...

These newbies are killing me.






And that makes post 1000.

[Spider-Fan]

EDIT: Now that I've been shown the mature and effective way to make things happen... Hold my Gatorade. thats not a request, thatsa DEMAND! :rolleyes: :D

:wolverine

LOL, that was a good edit. When you put it like that, I think I'll hold that Gatorade *reaches out and grabs Gatorade*.

[Dr.Crazy]

LOL, that was a good edit. When you put it like that, I think I'll hold that Gatorade *reaches out and grabs Gatorade*.

Gatorade?! Gatorade?! Please, what you need is coffee is regenerate your argument skills.

[Herr Logan]

Kurosawa, Herr...

These newbies are killing me.






And that makes post 1000.

Well, what can you expect from a thread with such a diseased and corrupt message? It's like a "newbie signal" reflecting against nearby, low-hanging clouds at night. All the impressionable scamps that eagerly buy into studio propaganda without a second though just come a-runnin'.


Spider-Fan930, when that Gatorade gets cold, hand it over to Sardauker as an anniversary present. And remember thats not a request, thatsa DEMAND! :D

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Gatorade?! Gatorade?! Please, what you need is coffee is regenerate your argument skills.

Coffee is too bitter for my delicate tastes, and one thing my arguments certainly don't lack is bitterness. Am I right, people?

:wolverine

[Spider-Fan]

I think its cold enough *hands ice cold Gatorade to Sardaukar*. Congrats on 1000th post.

[Dr.Crazy]

Coffee is too bitter for my delicate tastes, and one thing my arguments certainly don't lack is bitterness. Am I right, people?

:wolverine

Not you buddy, Spider-Fan930 I was refering too.

[Sardaukar]

Thanks guys.

Gatorade...I love that ****.

[Onlooker]

I don't really have an opinion on Doom's origin but if you look in the reviews thread you'll see that just about every poster on the IMDb site who claims to have seen the film, comments favourably on the interpretation. This is a direct link to the IMDb comments page:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120667/usercomments

[Herr Logan]

Not you buddy, Spider-Fan930 I was refering too.

Ah, I was mistaken. My eyes is failin' me. I think the presence of overly hyper youths actually makes me age exponentially faster.

What was we talking about? Ah, yes... back in ought-three, a big ol' mess o' gators done raided my house and I had to buy all new carpeting and zzzzzzzzzzzz....

:wolverine

[Sardaukar]

I don't really have an opinion on Doom's origin but if you look in the reviews thread you'll see that just about every poster on the IMDb site who claims to have seen the film, comments favourably on the interpretation. This is a direct link to the IMDb comments page:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120667/usercomments

I have never trusted IMDB, and I never will.

[Dr.Crazy]

Thats true.

[user123456789]

IMO not many people know Doom's origin. Therefore, I predict a Batman '89 affect will take place. The 'Comically' uneducated FF crowd will come out of the theater thinking "so that's how Doom was created," just like how the 'Comically' uneducated Batman crowd came out of the theater in '89 thinking "so the Joker killed Batman's parents."

BAH.

[Iron Maiden]

Ah, I was mistaken. My eyes is failin' me. I think the presence of overly hyper youths actually makes me age exponentially faster.


:wolverine

Dear lord, this thread is a travesty. It is like witnessing a battle of wits between unarmed opponents.

It seems most of the detractors of the comic book version of Doom are these aforementioned striplings who are have no sense of context. Yeah, I would agree with those of you that Doom's origin probably doesn't play that well to someone who wasn't even a gleam in their grandparent's eyes in the 1960's. Understandably, we don't see any reference these days of Ben and Reed being WWII vets anymore either. But just because times have changed, it doesn't mean we have to jettison comic book Doom's origin entirely.

In the movie, the script tries to have it both ways. Initially Victor does get transformed by the same accident as the rest of the FF. (* I am adding spoiler tags just in case *) He later chooses to get that extra dose of cosmic radiation using Reed's transformation chamber. Victor Von Doom in the movie is an industrialist/billionaire whose main activities seem to be attending board room meetings and keeping tabs on Reed's progress in finding a cure. He has a few underlings at his command, much like the subjects in his kingdom of Latveria in the comics. So, as Saph pointed out here months ago, Von Doom Victor Von Doom of the movies holds dominion over an alllegorical kingdom represented by Von Doom Industries.

I can accept that except for a couple of things. One aspect that weakens Movie Doom's origin for me is that I have always thought that the arc of Doom's development in the FF movie is too much like that of Norman Osborn in the first Spider-Man movie. If you recall, Osborn is cut out of his own company by the board of directors. Later as the Green Goblin, he attacks and kills them all. Victor is faced with the same dilemma with his investment bankers and we later see him lethally light one of them up in the parking garage scene.

As I mentioned earlier, he does modify the transformation chamber but it is Reed's design. In the book and film script he badgers Reed to come up with the cure for them all because it is losing him money and his investors are threatening to pull out. I can see how this is another way Reed is responsible for Victor "losing face", just as in the comics Victor blames Reed for the accident that scarred him. Another thing - - I emphasize the fact that it is Reed's device for this reason - - after going through the novelization and the copy of the shooting script that is included in the "Making of" book, I get no sense of Doom being a genius on par with Richards. Comic book Doom's ego would never allow him to consider that Reed was capable of accomplishing something that he himself could not. The movie simply substitutes a romantic rivalry for the intellecutal one that fuels Reed and Victor's confrontations in the comics. Yes, he is the head of the company that has all these "toys" at his disposal but it is never made clear exactly how the company was built up or whether or not Victor had a direct hand in any of the advances Von Doom Industries had achieved.

IMO, I think Movie Doom's sketchy origins lacks some of the depth of the comic book version that younger fans mock. The underlying psychology of it all (even though Stan and Jack were clearly writing for an audience whose average age was around 12) has far more interesting implications, some of which Shadowboxer covered earlier and I need not repeat here.

Oh, and someone mentioned earlier that Doom was trying to bring his mother back from the dead.. not true. The original device was to only make contact with the Netherworld. Later, Doom battles the demon Mephisto in order to redeem his enchantress mother's soul. She was damned to Hell for unwittingly causing the deaths of some innocents while fighting against her people's oppressors. The pity of it all is that I wish the script writers of today did as good a job as dialoguing as Roger Stern does in the graphic novel that tells that tale. A greater pity is that they have an actor who is capable of doing the role justice but I fear the script will hold him back from achieving a more perfect characterization.


http://www.members.aol.com/peachy9783/triumph.jpg

You probably would say from reading all this that I will hate the movie but never fear - - I plan to be there to see it as close to opening day as I can. I have said before that I have resolved to look upon it as an Elseworlds tale and plan to enjoy myself just the same. I am just weighing in to say I prefer the classic origin because, well I consider myself a classic too! ( * ducks from the flying objects being hurled *)




http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/IM.jpg

[Onlooker]

I point I was trying to make was that, leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of his origin in the film, everyone who has so far professed to have seen it, whether fans of the comics or not, liked how he was portrayed. That's a good sign, don't you think?

[Dragon]

I point I was trying to make was that, leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of his origin in the film, everyone who has so far professed to have seen it, whether fans of the comics or not, liked how he was portrayed. That's a good sign, don't you think?

For one thing, when people posted reviews that were not even negative, but scrutinizing, they were looked upon as fake and placed under a nuclear powered microscope.

A week or two ago, in an attempt to trash AICN, someone posts the theory that studio plants were posting reviews. Considering that the reviews you link to portray the film as being pretty much flawless, (all 8 to 9.5 stars out of 10), why would you automatically trust them? I even got a laugh because one of the reviews in particular addresses something I had said about a week ago, in that everything shown has been seen before. :D

Movie Doom's origin is an unnecessary watering & dumbing down and rehashing of former successes. The one that started this thread clearly doesn't have the intellectual grasp to understand story structure. To say that a completely unrealistic origin trumps one that at least has some place in reality "just because" is beyond ridiculous and is merely "my dad can beat-up your dad" mentality.

To say that Doom's origin has been "updated" is equally ridiculous. The origin still has its basis in 1961, so where is the updating?

The manner by which this script has been written merely proposes that the audience for this film couldn't handle the complex aspects of presenting Doom's origin against that of the FF. That having remote story concepts of characters whose paths cross, veer away from each other and then cross again leading to a collision is too much. That an intellectual and egotistical rivalry would be too difficult to grasp, "so let's dumb it down to be about love and money".

[Manic]

The manner by which this script has been written merely proposes that the audience for this film couldn't handle the complex aspects of presenting Doom's origin against that of the FF. That having remote story concepts of characters whose paths cross, veer away from each other and then cross again leading to a collision is too much. That an intellectual and egotistical rivalry would be too difficult to grasp, "so let's dumb it down to be about love and money".
A classic case of "I get it, you get it, but will Middle America get it?" The answer is almost always supposed to be "yes," but don't tell Hollywood that. They think general audiences aren't all that bright, so they reject intelligent scripts and original films, and give us a summer blockbuster season full of barely inspired remakes, sequels, and book adaptations. Even Mr. & Mrs. Smith is based off of a TV show.

However, I honestly think the decision to give Doom the same origin in this movie was based on two things:
1) Time. You can't squeeze Doom and the Four's origins all in one movie without seriously screwing one up... that is, unless you expand the movie by another hour or so. And FOX wouldn't even let Kingdom of Heaven run for another hour.
2) It was a pre-existing idea. I think Ultimate Fan4 pretty much did it for the sake of making a clever twist-- if Doom had been given powers along with the Fantastic Four, he still would've been evil and self-absorbed. It worked there, so why not use it in the movie, right?

But them believing audiences couldn't grasp a movie about crossing/separating/crossing paths? Charles Xavier and Magneto are proof that it can work. However, Magneto's origin (victim of Nazi rule, finds out he's superior to all humans, ironically does the exact same thing) doesn't need nearly as much exposition as Dr. Doom.

Dr. Doom's origin, to me, seems impossible to portray in a feature film alongside the Fan4's origin without audiences thinking Dr. Doom is an idiot. The accident that gave Doom his scar clearly isn't Reed's fault, yet Doom goes soul-searching for about a decade, and still holds a grudge against him. If I saw that on the big screen, and I wasn't aware of the comic book, I'd wonder what the hell Doom's problem is, and think he was a little bit "special." Rainman "special"-- intelligent, but not in complete possession of his faculties. There isn't enough time to give that origin justice.

If they had decided to use Dr. Doom for the sequel, after the Fantastic Four have established themselves as superhero celebrities, I could see his origin working easily.

IMO not many people know Doom's origin. Therefore, I predict a Batman '89 affect will take place. The 'Comically' uneducated FF crowd will come out of the theater thinking "so that's how Doom was created," just like how the 'Comically' uneducated Batman crowd came out of the theater in '89 thinking "so the Joker killed Batman's parents."
Sadly, I can see this happening. I can tell I'll have to do a lot of "actually, when he was introduced to the comic book in the 1960s, he..." in the near future.

[Hunter Rider]

WOW i expected a higher body count:D
I have to disagree with the thread,Dooms origin is classic and couldv'e been adapted more faithfully to the movie.The "realsim" argument really doesnt work here,if for instance they were putting Doom in the new Batman movie then yes it would be a valid point but Doom is in a movie that consists of a type space flight that doesn't exist,a man who can fly and whose body is covered in flames,a woman who can turn invisible,a man who can stretch his body like rubber and a man made of Rock.so the good ship realism has already sailed.I have some ideas on how they couldve done Doom but it is irrelevant now,my way of looking at this Doom is as an elseworlds doom and to still hope that he can be a great villain in his own right even though i can't see him matching the classic that is the original Doom

[GoblinScrier]

I love the classic Doom origin. I would love to see a movie like Magneto is getting all about Doom, grant you, we couldn't tell certain aspects of the origin (on account of the changes in the movie) but anything else that could be told (i.e. parents past, gypsies, the overthrowing of the Latverian government, Boris, the creation of Doombots, etc.). This could also be told in the sequel.

You know, I thought it was a matter of time before a thread like this was created. I think it is kind of cool to see those who prefer movie Doom's origin vs. comic Doom's origin. I am a the biggest preacher when it comes to Doom's history as he probably has the most complicated and deep origin of any character in comicdom. Yes, the watered down version that Fox and the writers came up with for the movie was didn't exactly catch my fancy (in fact, I screamed at the initial idea of it). However, I really like Julian McMahon (he is just so cool on Nip/Tuck) and when I heard that he was going to be Doom, I thought "this is very awesome!!!"

As time went on and footage was seen, I thought "What a great What If Doom!!" This would work if you just think that there are some elements of classic Doom merged with Ultimate Doom merged with What If type ideas and you get Movie Doom!!!

I am waiting impatiently to see this movie and at last see Victor Von Doom come to life. I am very much waiting for the ending to see what the future holds for Victor and his claim to the Latverian throne.

[RedIsNotBlue]

WOW i expected a higher body count:D
I have to disagree with the thread,Dooms origin is classic and couldv'e been adapted more faithfully to the movie.The "realsim" argument really doesnt work here,if for instance they were putting Doom in the new Batman movie then yes it would be a valid point but Doom is in a movie that consists of a type space flight that doesn't exist,a man who can fly and whose body is covered in flames,a woman who can turn invisible,a man who can stretch his body like rubber and a man made of Rock.so the good ship realism has already sailed.I have some ideas on how they couldve done Doom but it is irrelevant now,my way of looking at this Doom is as an elseworlds doom and to still hope that he can be a great villain in his own right even though i can't see him matching the classic that is the original Doom

You missed the whole realism thing I was trying to get across. I said they are taking the characters and putting them in a realistic enviroment. And I feel Doom's origin wouldn't have just cut it it on screen being 100% faithful. Ah I give up...I hate retyping posts.

[RedIsNotBlue]

And let me get this straight because I think some might still be a little confused. I am not bashing or saying Doom's comic origin is garbage but just not for the screen when it comes to what they are doing. And I also feel that in the sequel will have a much more faithful Doom because now we are getting his introduction done and now we have the time and the reasoning why Doom becomes ruler of Latveria, etc, etc.

[Hunter Rider]

You missed the whole realism thing I was trying to get across. I said they are taking the characters and putting them in a realistic enviroment. And I feel Doom's origin wouldn't have just cut it it on screen being 100% faithful. Ah I give up...I hate retyping posts.

no theyve put the F4 in the exact same enviroment as the comics,If they had left Dooms origin in tact apart from the magic element i could see it working.What they have done is tie there origins together,not for realism sake but to streamline the narrative and make it simpler to keep the story compact,as i said it could still be good only time will tell however i disagree that he couldn't have been done more faithful

[RedIsNotBlue]

It couldn't have worked time-wise and couldn't have been accepted IMO. I love how they tied in his origin with the F4. Like I said...the sequel can give us a more faithful Doom. Such as him gaining some magic powers, becoming the ruler of Latveria, all of that without the things I feel would not go so well on screen cut out.

[Kelly]

Thats great Red that you are happy w/ the storyline....thing is there are some that are of the opinion that a more true to the origin story for doom could have happened...thats just their opinion and they believe it as strongly as you do yours....we can repeat our sides 20,000x and neither side is going to cave....this is about the 3rd or 4th discussion thread about this since July 2004 and ya know what....NO ONE has changed their opinion either way.....and they aren't going to...the Doom thread has probably gone through 2 or more discussions like this in that thread alone...and ya know what NO ONE has changed their opinion....some have semi-accepted...but none have completely changed....and i don't see that happening in the near future.....so agree to disagree....because thats the only thing you are going to get on this subject....

[RedIsNotBlue]

I understand JMAfan. I was just simply stating my opinion and was defending it. But yes it has turned into a broken record discussion.

[Kelly]

I understand JMAfan. I was just simply stating my opinion and was defending it. But yes it has turned into a broken record discussion.


Yep that pretty much happens alot around here....LOL

[Herr Logan]

Dear lord, this thread is a travesty. It is like witnessing a battle of wits between unarmed opponents.

It seems most of the detractors of the comic book version of Doom are these aforementioned striplings who are have no sense of context. Yeah, I would agree with those of you that Doom's origin probably doesn't play that well to someone who wasn't even a gleam in their grandparent's eyes in the 1960's. Understandably, we don't see any reference these days of Ben and Reed being WWII vets anymore either. But just because times have changed, it doesn't mean we have to jettison comic book Doom's origin entirely.

In the movie, the script tries to have it both ways. Initially Victor does get transformed by the same accident as the rest of the FF. (* I am adding spoiler tags just in case *) He later chooses to get that extra dose of cosmic radiation using Reed's transformation chamber. Victor Von Doom in the movie is an industrialist/billionaire whose main activities seem to be attending board room meetings and keeping tabs on Reed's progress in finding a cure. He has a few underlings at his command, much like the subjects in his kingdom of Latveria in the comics. So, as Saph pointed out here months ago, Von Doom Victor Von Doom of the movies holds dominion over an alllegorical kingdom represented by Von Doom Industries.

I can accept that except for a couple of things. One aspect that weakens Movie Doom's origin for me is that I have always thought that the arc of Doom's development in the FF movie is too much like that of Norman Osborn in the first Spider-Man movie. If you recall, Osborn is cut out of his own company by the board of directors. Later as the Green Goblin, he attacks and kills them all. Victor is faced with the same dilemma with his investment bankers and we later see him lethally light one of them up in the parking garage scene.

As I mentioned earlier, he does modify the transformation chamber but it is Reed's design. In the book and film script he badgers Reed to come up with the cure for them all because it is losing him money and his investors are threatening to pull out. I can see how this is another way Reed is responsible for Victor "losing face", just as in the comics Victor blames Reed for the accident that scarred him. Another thing - - I emphasize the fact that it is Reed's device for this reason - - after going through the novelization and the copy of the shooting script that is included in the "Making of" book, I get no sense of Doom being a genius on par with Richards. Comic book Doom's ego would never allow him to consider that Reed was capable of accomplishing something that he himself could not. The movie simply substitutes a romantic rivalry for the intellecutal one that fuels Reed and Victor's confrontations in the comics. Yes, he is the head of the company that has all these "toys" at his disposal but it is never made clear exactly how the company was built up or whether or not Victor had a direct hand in any of the advances Von Doom Industries had achieved.

IMO, I think Movie Doom's sketchy origins lacks some of the depth of the comic book version that younger fans mock. The underlying psychology of it all (even though Stan and Jack were clearly writing for an audience whose average age was around 12) has far more interesting implications, some of which Shadowboxer covered earlier and I need not repeat here.

Oh, and someone mentioned earlier that Doom was trying to bring his mother back from the dead.. not true. The original device was to only make contact with the Netherworld. Later, Doom battles the demon Mephisto in order to redeem his enchantress mother's soul. She was damned to Hell for unwittingly causing the deaths of some innocents while fighting against her people's oppressors. The pity of it all is that I wish the script writers of today did as good a job as dialoguing as Roger Stern does in the graphic novel that tells that tale. A greater pity is that they have an actor who is capable of doing the role justice but I fear the script will hold him back from achieving a more perfect characterization.


http://www.members.aol.com/peachy9783/triumph.jpg

You probably would say from reading all this that I will hate the movie but never fear - - I plan to be there to see it as close to opening day as I can. I have said before that I have resolved to look upon it as an Elseworlds tale and plan to enjoy myself just the same. I am just weighing in to say I prefer the classic origin because, well I consider myself a classic too! ( * ducks from the flying objects being hurled *)




http://www.members.aol.com/madamehydra/IM.jpg

Your words cleanse my soul, fair Maiden. Your knowledge of the material in this debate and even temperament put above reproach in this hideous thread. Anyone who would dare hurl objects at you for speaking the truth is an unworthy, ignorant, brain-washed, sycophantic intellectual peasant that isn't fit to clean your iron boots with their devil's tongues.

Now would be the time to stand behind me and or get as far away from me as possible, fair Maiden, because those objects will be hurled now.

:wolverine

[Dragon]

Addressing the "couldn't have been accepted" argument, Doom's origin, in alot of ways reflects that of Batamn as presented in Batman Begins (With some very key differences). And that film was not only "accepted" but is regarded by many as the best Batman film ever made.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Addressing the "couldn't have been accepted" argument, Doom's origin, in alot of ways reflects that of Batamn as presented in Batman Begins (With some very key differences). And that film was not only "accepted" but is regarded by many as the best Batman film ever made.

Yeah but your forgetting one thing. That was a BATMAN movie. This is a FAANTASTIC FOUR movie. Maybe if Doom had his own movie it would be possible but with the Fantastic Four...never.

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah but your forgetting one thing. That was a BATMAN movie. This is a FAANTASTIC FOUR movie. Maybe if Doom had his own movie it would be possible but with the Fantastic Four...never.

how exactly ? i mean the whole time constraint thing could be an issue but i don't see the audience not accepting a origin in which Doom goes to college with Reed,there is an intellectual rivalry,Doom's face gets a scar in an accidnet,he returns to Latveria and reclaims his throne by building a battle suit,and then after the F4 come into the lime light due to the cosmic incident doom makes his play due to the fact Reed is in the spotlight as a genius

[ShadowBoxing]

Somebody ought to put up a sign for the next while that reads "Adult Swim."

Then again, looking back to the opening post... that wouldn't make a damn bit of sense.

ShadowBoxing: It's great to see when someone not only knows the historical content of the topic at hand, but understands the psychological implications. :up:

:wolverine

thanks....I knew reading all those comics was not in vain:D

[RedIsNotBlue]

how exactly ? i mean the whole time constraint thing could be an issue but i don't see the audience not accepting a origin in which Doom goes to college with Reed,there is an intellectual rivalry,Doom's face gets a scar in an accidnet,he returns to Latveria and reclaims his throne by building a battle suit,and then after the F4 come into the lime light due to the cosmic incident doom makes his play due to the fact Reed is in the spotlight as a genius

I just like the origin they used for the movie better. Who knows? Maybe I am still scarred from the Corman movie.

[Hunter Rider]

I just like the origin they used for the movie better. Who knows? Maybe I am still scarred from the Corman movie.

I have no problem with you liking the movie origin better,thats all good,i was just disagreeing with the initial statement that the classic origin couldn't be done

[ShadowBoxing]

Any faithful comic adaption can be done....like Sin City. In the case of FF the story would have to be drawn out to at least 3 hours. (You could get away with leaving out mole man and the skrull story which predate Doom...also you could omit when sans-powers Reed and Sue subdued Gormuu of Kraalo)

In general I have found sticking to the comic origin works best. Batman, Spider-Man, Superman had comic accurate origins. (actually DareDevil did to....but it was still not much of a film after the origin) have all been met with acclaim. Whereas X-Men films, Punisher, Elektra have all been questionable films (though the general public liked X-Men...I never did)

I feel sometimes directors/writers/producers overstep their bounds by assuming they know how to write a better origin than the creators.

[Herr Logan]

Dr. Doom's origin, to me, seems impossible to portray in a feature film alongside the Fan4's origin without audiences thinking Dr. Doom is an idiot. The accident that gave Doom his scar clearly isn't Reed's fault, yet Doom goes soul-searching for about a decade, and still holds a grudge against him. If I saw that on the big screen, and I wasn't aware of the comic book, I'd wonder what the hell Doom's problem is, and think he was a little bit "special." Rainman "special"-- intelligent, but not in complete possession of his faculties. There isn't enough time to give that origin justice.
And yet plenty of people want to see Venom in the next Spider-Man film. Venom's hatred of Spider-Man is just as idiotic as Dr. Doom's hatred towards Reed Richards-- actually, more so. Eddie Brock is not an idiot. He isn't a genius, but he's a clever bastard when he wants to be.
I think it's very possible to potray Doom's psychotic vanity and pride correctly. Unfortunately, it does seem that to do everything correctly, they would have to give Doom his own film, or maybe even a one-hour television one-shot.

A classic case of "I get it, you get it, but will Middle America get it?" The answer is almost always supposed to be "yes," but don't tell Hollywood that. They think general audiences aren't all that bright, so they reject intelligent scripts and original films, and give us a summer blockbuster season full of barely inspired remakes, sequels, and book adaptations. Even Mr. & Mrs. Smith is based off of a TV show.

However, I honestly think the decision to give Doom the same origin in this movie was based on two things:
1) Time. You can't squeeze Doom and the Four's origins all in one movie without seriously screwing one up... that is, unless you expand the movie by another hour or so. And FOX wouldn't even let Kingdom of Heaven run for another hour.
2) It was a pre-existing idea. I think Ultimate Fan4 pretty much did it for the sake of making a clever twist-- if Doom had been given powers along with the Fantastic Four, he still would've been evil and self-absorbed. It worked there, so why not use it in the movie, right?

But them believing audiences couldn't grasp a movie about crossing/separating/crossing paths? Charles Xavier and Magneto are proof that it can work. However, Magneto's origin (victim of Nazi rule, finds out he's superior to all humans, ironically does the exact same thing) doesn't need nearly as much exposition as Dr. Doom.

If they had decided to use Dr. Doom for the sequel, after the Fantastic Four have established themselves as superhero celebrities, I could see his origin working easily.


Sadly, I can see this happening. I can tell I'll have to do a lot of "actually, when he was introduced to the comic book in the 1960s, he..." in the near future.

The best possible scenario for harcore Marvel fans who want to see their heroes and villains realized in live-action movies would be if Marvel had become its own studio company and created a movie universe in which all properties could intermingle when appropriate. Dr. Doom shouldn't have his full origin revealed in a Fantastic Four movie (which in no way means what they've done here is acceptable or forgivable... I'm talking about handing out portions, not boiling the entire origin into a pungent stew and letting it grow tepid before serving it to the uwashed masses). Dr. Doom isn't just an FF villain. That just happens to be the superhero team that's most personally involved with him, due to Richards being his college rival. Dr. Doom is a villain for the entire Marvel universe. Doom should have gotten his own movie, and it should have featured Reed Richards and Ben Grimm in it. You can't tell me that they couldn't have gotten almost all of the important aspects of his origin correctly in a full-length feature film. As I said before, even an hour-long featurette would have established him properly. After he's established, he could soon show up in a Fantastic Four movie, where he is now a global threat and has personal designs on Reed Richards and his loved ones.
The entire Marvel Universe could interact if this type of arrangement had been made years ago.

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done. You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie. I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life. I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.

[Hunter Rider]

, it does seem that to do everything correctly, they would have to give Doom his own film, or maybe even a one-hour television one-shot.





:wolverine

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

[RedIsNotBlue]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

So your saying you would have to see a dvd to understand the movie?

[Hunter Rider]

So your saying you would have to see a dvd to understand the movie?

well you wouldn't need it to understand the story and they could use a flashback to a quick montage of Reed/Victor's youth to fill in the blanks,the DVD would be for those that wanted to know the full backstory of Doom

[Dragon]

I'm seeing a funny concept coming up here- the idea of Doom or Magneto having their own films. talk about a bomb in the making. If Avi Arad wants to keep his cushy job, he really needs to stop coming up with this stuff, because these movies won't make it.

Only the hardest of hardcore fans would be there. The general audiences wouldn't give a damn about these films, even if they were perfectly made. But since they are often poorly made, chances are even less, just as they didn't give a damn about Elektra. Arad isn't a talented guy in any way shape or form. But he's supposed to be at least intelligent business-wise. He needs to grasp that not every character will be a vehicle for a film or TV show. They're having enough trouble making good films with their flagship characters.

But back to Doom and his origin. Time isn't a factor. Doom's origin, told thoroughly would take no more than 20 minutes of screentime. Again this is aided in that Doom and Reed's paths cross and re-cross. Same with that of the FF. Then you still have 80 minutes to focus on Doom's diabolical plot, the FF learning to function as a team, and assorted other odds and ends. And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

[Rex Calibur]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done.When the comics have gone on like that for forty years, I say it's pretty close to being the best it can be done. You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie.The general audience aren't idiots. I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life.That gives us more reason to tell the real origin in the movie. What's your point? I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.They have. However, like you said at the beginning:

"that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done"

It can be interpreted that this Doom is similar to the Doom from the comics, but you have to look deep to see it. Using comic Doom will lead to a more powerful, more memorable and more respectable movie villain.

The fact is, this movie ISN'T the best they could do.

[Rex Calibur]

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.And Lord of the Rings. Me not being aware of the books, I was surprised to see LOTR: FOTR end with Frodo and Sam walking over a hill. It made me wait eagerly for the next one, to find out what happens.

[Ratcrawler]

So this is how I would have done it...

Doom and Reed are the two most brilliant minds on the planet. (They could could have shown that in a TIME article or something.) This should have been stated right off the bat. The main difference is their resPective approaches to science. Reed is more by the book, but Doom's view is more philosophical. (Remember Ultimate Doom's monologue about how Descarte arrived at the scientific principal because he tripped on a hallucinagenic mushroom? That science is an art?) He realizes that there is more to science than numbers and so he has a mystical side to him. Never really performs any sPells but we see that the occult plays a big role in his life. A mystic and a scientist. It's pretty unique as far as film villains go. Nobody argue's his methods because he get's results. He has a multibillion dollar empire at his fingertips. Makes everything from miracle medicines to military weapons to rocket engineering. And like movie Doom, he uses his influence to undermine any progress Reed makes.

They all go to sPace, but Doom escapes in a sPacepod before the radiation hits. The pod burns up on reentry. It lands in Tibet and when he staggers out we see his flesh got burned and scarred pretty horrifically. He passes out and when he comes to, he finds himself in a monestary. He recuperates gradually and is given pieces of armor and his metal mask to cover up his scarring.

He arrives at the nearest town and sees reports on TV of how the Fantastic Four saved a bunch of people from an earthquake or something. (In tibetan of course, but the images sPeak louder than words.) This outrages him. Four of his inferiors have sipped from the cup of the gods and he himself is now just a scarred man who's face is hidden from the world. He than considers it his mission to prove his own greatness to the world by destroying the four.

Doom calls Boris, who charters a private jet to pick him up like in Batman Begins and takes him back to America. Doom outfits himself in an exosuit he designed with blaster gauntlets and such and takes on the F4. Long fight, but he eventually loses and escapes.

We later find out that he returned to his homeland, overthrew the monarchy there and proclaimed himself king.

Just my two cents of how I'd like it to be done.

I gues my two biggest qualms are; I wish he would have gotten concussion beams instead of electrical powers. Second, he's a CEO who will probably become a monarch. So, comic faithfulness aside, why is he called "DOCTOR" Doom? Seem's like a step down from where his goals are.

[Manic]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like
If there was one thing that I couldn't stand about the Matrix franchise, it was all of the tie-ins I needed to get ahold of just to understand the movie. In Matrix Reloaded, the audiences are automatically supposed to know who The Kid is, and that there are machines burrowing into the city. The movie assumed everybody watched the Animatrix. Then there were certain sequences that were reserved for the video game, which I never bought.

Same with Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I didn't watch all of Clone Wars, so there were a few things I didn't quite understand in Revenge.

I don't like the idea of having to catch some TV-movie or buying a DVD just to understand a character that will be in an upcoming film. That shouldn't be necessary at all. I want my theatrical movies self-contained, unless they're sequels. If they decide to make an "Origin of Dr. Doom" DVD between Fantastic Four movies, then I might be willing to accept it. I'd still be upset that I'd need a tie-in just to understand a character, though.

[Joe Rockhead]

And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

I don't think the first Star Wars was made with an eye towards Luke developing into a Jedi over the following movies. As I recall, Lucas made the movie on a shoestring budget and there was no guarantee that a sequel would even be produced. He might have had it in his head to do it that way, but the first movie was meant to tell a fun adventure story and introduce the characters.

If you go back and look at those movies, both Star Wars and Phantom Menace ended on a relatively happy note. Even though both featured the death of a mentor (Obi Wan and Qui Gon), both ended with a decided victory for the heroes, with the celebrations to follow. A New Hope could have easily been the only movie ever made. It's overwhelming success allowed Lucas to expand his vision.

The second movie in the arcs left the characters futures more in doubt: Empire Strikes Back - rebel alliance on the run, Han Solo captured, Luke lost his hand.
Attack of the Clones - start of clone wars, Dooku escaped with unknown plans, Anakin lost his arm.

The second movies set up the resolutions to come in the third movies. These both had conclusions to the arc that left the audience more with hope for the future than anything. Difference being who was the victor.

Return of the Jedi - Emperor defeated and Sith eliminated, Vader Redeemed, celebrations galaxy wide
Revenge of the Sith - Emperor triumphs and Jedi all but eliminated, Anakin turns to the dark side, Luke and Leia born and hidden for the future.

The Matrix trilogy follows a similar pattern. The first movie stands alone. Sure there's the mystery of Zion, but the hero Neo has defeated the primary protaganist Mr. Smith.

Reloaded gave you the sort of cliffhanger ending, and Revolutions concluded Neo's and Mr. Smith's stories.

Go back and look at the Back to the Future movies, and you can see a similar pattern in effect.

The likelihood of Hollywood straying from this pattern is slight. They're too afraid to guarantee a sequel that the first movie is standalone. Then if it's well received, the second movie gets made with an eye for a third...so this gives the production teams two movies to work with, rather than just one.

Lord of the Rings is an exception to the rule. It was an established story with clearly defined break points that Jackson was able to work around. It's not following the books verbatim, but it certainly captured the essence of the books.

[Dragon]

Okay. Well, we could debate how Star Wars was structured. And 36 million dollars to make the first film is hardly a shoestring budget, particularly for the 70's.

But in the case of the FF, we know the characters and their development over time. Again, Ben and Reed had to take time to work things out. Sue & Reed had to develop their relationship over time as well. Johnny had to mature. The characters HAVE TO further develop in the sequels, otherwise all they'll be is special effects shows. There'll be no heart to them.

So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

[chamber-music]

I like dooms comic book origin and I think it could be adapted to the fantastic four movie although I would leave out all that mystical magic crap. I know its a comic book movie so you have to dispel any form of reality and go along with the fantasy but its a bit of a stretch to belive in the whole my mothers in a demonic dimension. It would be better if she was wrongly imprisoned by the Latveria ruling family and the devise victor was building which blew up in his face was some kind of weapon he was going to use to get her out.

[Joe Rockhead]

Okay. Well, we could debate how Star Wars was structured. And 36 million dollars to make the first film is hardly a shoestring budget, particularly for the 70's.

Try more like 12 million:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/dvd/features/starwarstrilogy/makingthetrilogy.asp


In all, Star Wars filmed in England for 14 and a half weeks, resulting in principal photography that had taken nearly five grueling months. It was mid-summer, and the film was less than half-finished - with no hope of meeting its announced Christmas 1976 release date. Fox, already panicked by the rising budget (which was approaching $10 million) and the seemingly never-ending shoot, refused to give Lucas more time and gave him an ultimatum: Finish shooting or shut down the production.

For the second movie:
With the help of producer Gary Kurtz, he was able to secure a bank loan of $25 million - twice that of the first movie. Fox would serve as the film's distributor, but would have no say in its production.

But in the case of the FF, we know the characters and their development over time. Again, Ben and Reed had to take time to work things out. Sue & Reed had to develop their relationship over time as well. Johnny had to mature. The characters HAVE TO further develop in the sequels, otherwise all they'll be is special effects shows. There'll be no heart to them.

Who is this "we" you speak of? The Superherohype community or the general population of the US? We here might know the background and characters of the FF, but the general public certainly isn't expected to know them. The studio has to appeal to them too.

Any first movie is used to set up a firm foundation. So some conflict should be resolved in one movie, leaving some other things open for later development. I'm not saying all things get resolved, but some certainly must for it to be a complete film.

The Reed/Sue relationship is one thing that should be firmly established by the end of the first movie. It's the foundation of the group. Later developments should explore their marriage and finally the birth of Franklin. So there's plenty left to explore in later films.



So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

For someone who's read the FF for a number of years, this is understandable. But the movie isn't being produced specifically for you, it has to appeal to a much broader audience than the comic book community in order to guarantee some sort of financial success.

[Herr Logan]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done. You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie. I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life. I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.

You have no idea just how much I care what you think when it comes to this topic. :up:

:wolverine

[lockjaw]

I'm seeing a funny concept coming up here- the idea of Doom or Magneto having their own films. talk about a bomb in the making. If Avi Arad wants to keep his cushy job, he really needs to stop coming up with this stuff, because these movies won't make it.

agreed

But back to Doom and his origin. Time isn't a factor. Doom's origin, told thoroughly would take no more than 20 minutes of screentime. Again this is aided in that Doom and Reed's paths cross and re-cross. Same with that of the FF. Then you still have 80 minutes to focus on Doom's diabolical plot, the FF learning to function as a team, and assorted other odds and ends. And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

agreed:up:

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

the same could said for Peter Parker's development in the Spidey franchise too!

[RedIsNotBlue]

You have no idea just how much I care what you think when it comes to this topic. :up:

:wolverine

Sarcasm is hard to pick up online. Are you using it?

[LordSimen]

So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

Here's the problem: There is no gaurantee there is going to be more than one movie. Every potential franchis has to deal with this- They have no idea if their movie will make enough for a sequal. Because of this, the first film HAS to feel like it comes full circle. X-men did, Spider-man did, Blade did and even Superman did. The same thing happend with Star Wars, there was no gaurantee that Episode IV: A New Hope would make enough for them to pull off a sequal, which is why it works as a complete movie on it's own.


Now, just as much as everyone else, the changes to Doom DO bug me, however I understand why they did this and am willing to live with it.

[Herr Logan]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

Exactly! I actually meant to put that in there, the thing about the DVD. Good thinkin'.

:wolverine

[theJust]

i love how you guys take fantasy and try and make it realistic

[LordSimen]

i love how you guys take fantasy so seriously

Well, it's understandable that we do. It's characters we love, we've grown up with. We all want the best for them, we just all have different opinions on it.

[Herr Logan]

Sarcasm is hard to pick up online. Are you using it?

On you, Precious? Never. :o

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

When the comics have gone on like that for forty years, I say it's pretty close to being the best it can be done.

Haha. Best is all matter of opinion. I just find it funny how some just think because it is printed in the comics then that is automatically the best way it can be done on the screen...wrong.

The general audience aren't idiots.

Never said they were. I simply meant that if they used Doom's origin from the comics in a 2 hour time frame it would be so rushed the general audience wouldn't fully understand it IMO.

That gives us more reason to tell the real origin in the movie. What's your point?

I feel the real origin on screen would not be as good as the one we are getting on screen but that is just my opinion. I love the one we are getting now.

They have. However, like you said at the beginning:

"that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done"

It can be interpreted that this Doom is similar to the Doom from the comics, but you have to look deep to see it. Using comic Doom will lead to a more powerful, more memorable and more respectable movie villain.

The fact is, this movie ISN'T the best they could do.

I would like to see think of something better. And copying the comics verbatim is going to cut it.

[Dragon]

Try more like 12 million:
Who is this "we" you speak of? The Superherohype community or the general population of the US? We here might know the background and characters of the FF, but the general public certainly isn't expected to know them. The studio has to appeal to them too.

I'm saying WE here at SHH who are having this discussion. And again the general public didn't know where things were gong with the Star Wars films. Neither did most know where things were going with LOTR. Yet the films were well made enough to keep people coming back. so the studio can "appeal' to them merely by making excellent films.

Any first movie is used to set up a firm foundation. So some conflict should be resolved in one movie, leaving some other things open for later development. I'm not saying all things get resolved, but some certainly must for it to be a complete film.[.quote]

And they are. they learn top use their powers and function as a team. we know they're heroes and they stop Doom's first scheme.

[quote]The Reed/Sue relationship is one thing that should be firmly established by the end of the first movie. It's the foundation of the group.

No it isn't. The group has been who it is whether Reed & Sue were together or not. There was even a point when Sue left the team, separating from Reed and the team continued. Reed and sue love each other, that's for certain and should be established. i'm just saying that they don't have to be getting married, or planning to be married or ven proposing by the end of the first film. Not if this screentime can be devoted to telling a compelling story like Doom's origin.

Later developments should explore their marriage and finally the birth of Franklin. So there's plenty left to explore in later films.

Their marriage and having Franklin doesn't reflect character development. Those are subplots.

For someone who's read the FF for a number of years, this is understandable. But the movie isn't being produced specifically for you, it has to appeal to a much broader audience than the comic book community in order to guarantee some sort of financial success.

It has to be a good film to have any "guarantee" of success. Doom being established as a powerful villain with strong back story isn't something that would appeal exclusively to comic book fans. The FF and Doom having a strong rivalry isn't either. And certainly the general audience wants a dramatic final confrontation. Show me the movie audience that says they want a simplistic and watered down villain.

[Dragon]

Here's the problem: There is no gaurantee there is going to be more than one movie. Every potential franchis has to deal with this- They have no idea if their movie will make enough for a sequal. Because of this, the first film HAS to feel like it comes full circle. X-men did, Spider-man did, Blade did and even Superman did. The same thing happend with Star Wars, there was no gaurantee that Episode IV: A New Hope would make enough for them to pull off a sequal, which is why it works as a complete movie on it's own.


Now, just as much as everyone else, the changes to Doom DO bug me, however I understand why they did this and am willing to live with it.

All of the films you mention that became successful franchises left alot of doors open.

X-men had Wolverine, the main guy, leave to pursue his past, and made itclear the villains would be returning.

Spider-Man left Peter walking away from MJ and rejecting her affections.

Superman left the relationship between Supes and Lois unresolved.

Star Wars left a question as to who Leia was attracted to, and left the villain Darth Vader alive and unharmed.

The filmmakers were bold enough in their belief in these films to leave certain things open so that they could focus on other aspects. Were all of these films perfection? No way. But the FF shouldn't have been held back by what had been done in other films. They have been from day one, ground breakers.

[LordSimen]

All of the films you mention that became successful franchises left alot of doors open.

X-men had Wolverine, the main guy, leave to pursue his past, and made itclear the villains would be returning.

Spider-Man left Peter walking away from MJ and rejecting her affections.

Superman left the relationship between Supes and Lois unresolved.

Star Wars left a question as to who Leia was attracted to, and left the villain Darth Vader alive and unharmed.

The filmmakers were bold enough in their belief in these films to leave certain things open so that they could focus on other aspects. Were all of these films perfection? No way. But the FF shouldn't have been held back by what had been done in other films. They have been from day one, ground breakers.

Very true, but who's to say that this film won't leave things open as well? As far as we know we could have the Batman Begins effects where, while they do MENTION the Lazerus pit (like Latveria) it does not MEAN it doesn't exist and that they won't explore it in the future...

Note: I'm just using Latveria as an example...
Sorry if I mispelt any of the names. :(

[TheSaintofKillers]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

Doom is not Doom, and not just in name. In personality also. There is so little of Doom in there, it's depressing. I've discussed this so many times i've lost count. If people think he's faithful, then they don't know enough about him. Heck, if they think he's better, then they better go and read some of the great comics with Doom to see why their opinion might change pretty fast on the matter. Doom is not just a great villain, he's by and FAR the greatest villain.

Here's the old review I made about how Doom was portrayed in the book, since I have no envy to repeat myself, other than by quoting myself, of course:

Now, I had lost all hopes nearly a year ago. Having read the Frost script (which, btw, is nearly THE exact same as the newest movie, nearly nothing has changed), I was heavily disappointed by how Doom acted, his origin, and his powers. But, Lightning Strikez! gave me hopes. He's always been great doing so (and he should always continue to ) by providing us exemples as to why Doom from the movie wouldn't be THAT far away. Unfortunately, the exemples he gave were all that made Doom remotely close to his comic self.

Victor is madly in love with Sue, even if he often tries to deny it. Sure, when he goes ga-ga crazy, he begins to totally hate her, but that's something else (since he's crazy). The thing here, is that Victor, before his "accident" isn't Doom at all. Doom should always be Doom, even before his accident.

Here, he isn't. He's a ruthless businessman, who fought to be where he is, but that... isn't even CLOSE to Doom's dreams. He should see far much further than he does. When he goes crazy, he makes a reference to Leonard (his kind of secretary) about how he should think bigger. But, never (aside from here) does he ever even ATTEMP to show us (or try) to want something global, other than money and "more electricity".

Another thing. Since Doom was always Doom in the comics, he didn't think much bigger when he had his accident. He already wanted more. Here, we are led to believe that he was "human" before, but after his accident, someone acting like Doom can only be "crazy". That's what he is in the movie. A crazy metal dude. He's not a true "God among manking", he's a freak of nature that goes on a rampage, a lot like Electro himself often do. He's just NOT Doom. Thinking about it, his situation is simular to that of Norman Osborn in the first spiderman movie. Both got crazy after their accident, explaining why they were "eviiiIIiiil", which is lame, imo, since Doom was always much more than just evil. But here, that's all he is when he become "Doctor Doom"... (just the fact that he become Doctor Doom is horrible, since he should always have been himself).

And worse, much worse than all of that, he's not even HALF the scientific mind Richard his. What made Doom SUCH A GREAT villain (or heck, more than a villain) was his intellect. Here, sure, he's intelligent, manipulative, but so much less than Reed. Doom being anything less than Reed's equal (much less not even half his genius) is absolutely atrocious. Heck, Doom never does anything by himself. He always hired scientist and doctors to make his discoveries. There's even a scene (showed in the trailer), when he has to go to a doctor to know what is happening to him. MY GOD. We are talking about DOOM here. He would NEVER ask someone's else opinion, much less about his condition, when he himself could analyse it much better (alas, not here, though). For he is suppose to be DOOM. And DOOM is above all.

At the end, when he loses and become a living statue, the writers had the golden possibility to have Doom cry a last "RiiiIIIIIiiiichard". I mean, when I got there, I though it was the PERFECT PLACE. But no, instead he seems to cry a "noooooOOooooooooo" (and by all that is in the bottom of my holy rectum, I hope it's not as horrible as the one Vader cries at the end of ROTS).

I could have forgiven his relation to Sue, his mutant powers, but NOT what made him superior to all villains, his INTELLECT. That, imo, is a change I cannot forgive, which is stupid, and makes me cringe just thinking about it.

But that's not all. I won't go into his powers, and all, since we've all discussed that dozen of times here, but I want to address the Sue/Victor relationship.

It's a mess, imo. Lightning said that Doom never truly cared about Sue. Having read the book, i'd say he was wrong (sorry). Doom cared about Sue, a lot, even if he seems to want to not accept it. When she goes in Reed's arms, he is hurted a lot. But, all this really does is make Sue a bad character, imo. Really, she goes out two years with Victor. She probably fell "something" for him, for godsake. Two years. And yet, the instant Reed comes back, she runs in his arms. That, no problem here. She loved the dude even more than the old doctor. It's understandable. But, once Reed was back, she stopped caring about Victor. She didn't even noticed he existed anymore. I mean, when everything goes wrong for him, she doesn't even think about him. He could have died she wouldn't even have cared. That makes her something much closer to a bad girl (villain here) than a hero, imo. Victor goes crazy, and that's in part due to how she left him, and pull a finger on him, without no other reason than that she loved another man more. She completely left him, without even truly telling him how she truly felt about all of this. When he becomes a statue, at the very end, she's all too happy to be "discarded" of her ex-boyfriend, like some mean 16 years old adolescent on a rampage.

That's a pretty bad reason, imo. Exactly the kind of person I could never respect. That's the kind of character i'm going to root for in theatre ? Sure, i wanted the FF to win when I read the book, but not Sue. Victor could have fried her i'd have been relieved. Here's hoping Jessica Alba's so good she'll make me think otherwise.

So, Sue's a pretty messed up character here , and Doom's one of the worst adaptation possible of the greatest villain there is.

But, imo, movie Doom is still a great villain. He's easily, just after Magneto, the second best superhero movie villain. Easily. If he had been faithful, he would have took the first place without any difficulty, but oh well. A 10% faithful Doom is still better than most villains.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.

If you people want to understand why Doom's such a great villain, unlike his movie counterpart, go read Secret war, or the Doom 2099 by Warren Ellis, or the three part storyarc by Chuck Dixon named "DOOM". I'd recommend those to the ones who don't know him much. Then, well, there is so much more. :doom:

[LordSimen]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.


That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

[RedIsNotBlue]

That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

Lightning did a better Doom review.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Lightning did a better Doom review.

You know, Lighting's a great person. I wouldn't judge his opinion, since I respect him.

But i'm sure the only reason you prefered his, was because he was positive. Don't deny it.

[TheSaintofKillers]

That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

I already talk about what I though about Sue in my above review. ;)

But the other 3 were pretty great, especially Thing and Johnny. Both felt faithful AND good, which might save the movie for me. Maybe.

(oh, and it was with Reed I connected the most, strange)

[RedIsNotBlue]

You know, Lighting's a great person. I wouldn't judge his opinion, since I respect him.

But i'm sure the only reason you prefered his, was because he was positive. Don't deny it.

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

I bashed Julian ? When ? It's been one of the thing i've been the most open actually. And, if you had been there last summer, I was defending this movie version. I defended it for 6 long months, finding every positive aspect about it. Wanting, believing it was still possible for us to have a faithful Doom among all of these changes. But then, hope began to fade, when EVERYTHING I was hoping they wouldn't mess with, well, happened. Everything, I swear. Everytime I found something that could give me hope, a week after, Fox or marvel, or whoever was in the process of making the movie, came with something to make me pay for having hopes.

Some months ago, I discovered there were no hopes anymore. There was too many facts showing us nearly nothing was kept from the comic Doom. And then, I read the novel, and I knew it all. All of it. If you know Doom, and you read the novel, you sure as heck won't find him in there. Maybe some references to him, there and there. But that's pretty much it.

Just to make you cleary understand it all, the movie version of Doom is NOT Doom. What it is, is a "what if Norman Osborn was born in Latveria, named Victor Von Doom, came to america, got himself his own business like he was always supposed to, came in contact with the FF, and got himself Colossus' and Electro's powers, and got crazy". Because that's what we are getting.

Oh, and how could I be positive now ? I mean, they adapted my favorite comic book character of all time, and change EVERYTHING about him, even to his core. How could I be positive now that I know there is no more hope ???

Even if they make a sequel, he'll still be so much less intelligent than he is in the comics, not even half the mind Reed is. THAT'S what makes Doom such a great character, that, and his impossible will, which (with his intelligence) is above ALL. Yes, all.

They kept none of the two.

[Kelly]

Guys......good lord.......you aren't going to agree......its very evident....LOL....

[TheSaintofKillers]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

Oh, and another thing. Of course I've been against this movie version of Doom long before the novel. You know why ? Because i've kept myself update since a long time, along with our fellow posters here. We've know about Doom's situation and changes since a year now. And it only went worst since then.

[lockjaw]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

I had it (the shooting script 1st!) and I gotta tell you there really isnt any difference between that and the novel, so let's just hope Mr.McMahon can bring something to the role that isnt on the written page. Other than that all we can do is just enjoy Movie Doom for what he is

[TheSaintofKillers]

Guys......good lord.......you aren't going to agree......its very evident....LOL....

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.

[Kelly]

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.


*holds up hands*.....no argument here.....

[RedIsNotBlue]

I bashed Julian ? When ? It's been one of the thing i've been the most open actually. And, if you had been there last summer, I was defending this movie version. I defended it for 6 long months, finding every positive aspect about it. Wanting, believing it was still possible for us to have a faithful Doom among all of these changes. But then, hope began to fade, when EVERYTHING I was hoping they wouldn't mess with, well, happened. Everything, I swear. Everytime I found something that could give me hope, a week after, Fox or marvel, or whoever was in the process of making the movie, came with something to make me pay for having hopes.

Some months ago, I discovered there were no hopes anymore. There was too many facts showing us nearly nothing was kept from the comic Doom. And then, I read the novel, and I knew it all. All of it. If you know Doom, and you read the novel, you sure as heck won't find him in there. Maybe some references to him, there and there. But that's pretty much it.

Just to make you cleary understand it all, the movie version of Doom is NOT Doom. What it is, is a "what if Norman Osborn was born in Latveria, named Victor Von Doom, came to america, got himself his own business like he was always supposed to, came in contact with the FF, and got himself Colossus' and Electro's powers, and got crazy". Because that's what we are getting.

Oh, and how could I be positive now ? I mean, they adapted my favorite comic book character of all time, and change EVERYTHING about him, even to his core. How could I be positive now that I know there is no more hope ???

Even if they make a sequel, he'll still be so much less intelligent than he is in the comics, not even half the mind Reed is. THAT'S what makes Doom such a great character, that, and his impossible will, which (with his intelligence) is above ALL. Yes, all.

They kept none of the two.

The thing that sticks out the most in my mind is when you said McMahon is too small and Doom is supposed to be huge. And I replied back to you that he is 6'2 (taller than the rest of the cast) weighs 182 pounds, and is going to be built like a tank. And you kept replying in a way that made it seem you felt McMahon is inadequate for the role.

And concerning his powers. Judging from the new trailer I think they actually fixed it to the point where it should make us happy. This is how it seems they have done Doom's powers. He draws electricity to himself...BUT he shoots it as BLAST or BEAM...which is better than the electricity IMO. Go watch the Japanese trailer and watch Doom take out the guy in the parking garage and you will see what I am talking about

[Herr Logan]

Very true, but who's to say that this film won't leave things open as well? As far as we know we could have the Batman Begins effects where, while they do MENTION the Lazerus pit (like Latveria) it does not MEAN it doesn't exist and that they won't explore it in the future...

Note: I'm just using Latveria as an example...
Sorry if I mispelt any of the names. :(

They did not mention the Lazarus pit! I've seen that movie three times, and I can assure you, my hyper-analytical mind was doing its work. No Lazarus pit, no Talia, no ecology element to R'as' world paradigm. Don't go tellin' lies, boy! :mad:

;)

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.

Haha...have you not read my first post?? I never said he was faithful. I even said I like his movie origin better than what the comic version would have looked like on screen. And I think they way they set up for the more faithful Doom for the sequel is perfect.

[TheSaintofKillers]

The thing that sticks out the most in my mind is when you said McMahon is too small and Doom is supposed to be huge. And I replied back to you that he is 6'2 (taller than the rest of the cast) weighs 182 pounds, and is going to be built like a tank. And you kept replying in a way that made it seem you felt McMahon is inadequate for the role.

And concerning his powers. Judging from the new trailer I think they actually fixed it to the point where it should make us happy. This is how it seems they have done Doom's powers. He draws electricity to himself...BUT he shoots it as BLAST or BEAM...which is better than the electricity IMO. Go watch the Japanese trailer and watch Doom take out the guy in the parking garage and you will see what I am talking about

Um, you misread me then. When I said Julian was too small, it wasn't because HE was too small, (since Victor von Doom without his armor isn't bigger than Julian), but rather that NO HUMAN can be as big as Doom is when he's got his armor.

So, of course Julian looks WAY too small when he's in his costume. That's a fact movie Doom isn't as big as Doom in the comics is.

I'm hoping you do understand it, but then again, i'm pretty sure I said the same thing I just wrote back then. Sigh.

Oh, and I've never complained about the FX in the movie. And i'm pretty sure you know that. You do know I hate that he shoots electricity because that gives him mutant powers ? And not because of how it looks ?

[RedIsNotBlue]

Um, you misread me then. When I said Julian was too small, it wasn't because HE was too small, (since Victor von Doom without his armor isn't bigger than Julian), but rather that NO HUMAN can be as big as Doom is when he's got his armor.

So, of course Julian looks WAY too small when he's in his costume. That's a fact movie Doom isn't as big as Doom in the comics is.

I'm hoping you do understand it, but then again, i'm pretty sure I said the same thing I just wrote back then. Sigh.

Oh, and I've never complained about the FX in the movie. And i'm pretty sure you know that. You do know I hate that he shoots electricity because that gives him mutant powers ? And not because of how it looks ?

Well I think your just restating what you said so it sounds different now but whatever I am done arguing. And read what I said. From the looks of the new trailer he doesn't shoot electricity anymore he just uses it to charge up. But enough of this debate that has page 50 written all over it.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Haha...have you not read my first post?? I never said he was faithful. I even said I like his movie origin better than what the comic version would have looked like on screen. And I think they way they set up for the more faithful Doom for the sequel is perfect.

How ? He's still not even half the mind Reed is. Heck, Reed is AT LEAST 10 times more of a genius than Victor is. At least.

Just that destroy ever having Doom. How can he be Doom if he's not a genius ??????

That's like seeing a batman movie where he's got superpowers, can shoot batrang out of his hands, and has mutated bats wings. And he's a mindless fighter, with Alfred (via telepathy) giving him every details about what to do, since batman wouldn't be intelligent enough. And all of that would take place in the forest, with vague mention of Gotham.

And then, at the end, we learn that batman might fall into gotham by accident.

I'm sure we'd be getting a faithful batman when the sequel would come out. Oh so sure.

If you know Doom, you know the situation is the same. Heck, it's probably worse than the new one I just wrote for the bat.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Well I think your just restating what you said so it sounds different now but whatever I am done arguing. And read what I said. From the looks of the new trailer he doesn't shoot electricity anymore he just uses it to charge up. But enough of this debate that has page 50 written all over it.

Ok, if you don't want to admit you misread me in the past, and want to misread me again, I say we stop this.

I'm just killing time here, i've got nothing against you, really. ;)

[Hunter Rider]

Ok, if you don't want to admit you misread me in the past, and want to misread me again, I say we stop this.

I'm just killing time here, i've got nothing against you, really. ;)

here see if this cheers you up:)

http://img178.echo.cx/img178/9335/14ca.gif

http://img277.echo.cx/img277/5110/22ya.gif


http://img249.echo.cx/img249/386/38bg.gif

[RedIsNotBlue]

here see if this cheers you up:)

http://img178.echo.cx/img178/9335/14ca.gif

http://img277.echo.cx/img277/5110/22ya.gif

http://img249.echo.cx/img249/386/38bg.gif

Is that the new Kong trailer???

[Hunter Rider]

Is that the new Kong trailer???

Its from the preview of the new Kong trailer

[Herr Logan]

How ? He's still not even half the mind Reed is. Heck, Reed is AT LEAST 10 times more of a genius than Victor is. At least.

Just that destroy ever having Doom. How can he be Doom if he's not a genius ??????

That's like seeing a batman movie where he's got superpowers, can shoot batrang out of his hands, and has mutated bats wings. And he's a mindless fighter, with Alfred (via telepathy) giving him every details about what to do, since batman wouldn't be intelligent enough. And all of that would take place in the forest, with vague mention of Gotham.

And then, at the end, we learn that batman might fall into gotham by accident.

I'm sure we'd be getting a faithful batman when the sequel would come out. Oh so sure.

If you know Doom, you know the situation is the same. Heck, it's probably worse than the new one I just wrote for the bat.

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision), very little in this world could be worse than what you just wrote about the bat. :(

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

Is that even online? I haven't seen it.

[Herr Logan]

Its from the preview of the new Kong trailer

Preview of the trailer? A preview of the God damn trailer?? What in God's green Hell has the movie marketing industry come to??! :mad:

Time was, a preview and a trailer were the same thing, and you'd see it right after the newsreel finished at the local cinema. Then you'd hide under your seats in case the Germans were a-comin' in their planes overhead...
:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision), very little in this world could be worse than what you just wrote about the bat. :(

:wolverine

The only childish one I see around here is you making insults as if your higher above people who have a different opinion than you.

[Hunter Rider]

Preview of the trailer? A preview of the God damn trailer?? What in God's green Hell has the movie marketing industry come to??! :mad:

Time was, a preview and a trailer were the same thing, and you'd see it right after the newsreel finished at the local cinema. Then you'd hide under your seats in case the Germans were a-comin' in their planes overhead...
:wolverine

lol My friend you are on fine form today:D :up:
its the advert from one of the TV networks promoting the debut of the trailer on their channel this monday

[Hunter Rider]

Is that even online? I haven't seen it.

you can D/l the ten second clips here

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RIMQKRHHZVTR1TCCZXRUGAXGL (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RIMQKRHHZVTR1TCCZXRUGAXGL)


http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3OV0O3TPSX44U338B84A3BMOXA (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3OV0O3TPSX44U338B84A3BMOXA)

[Herr Logan]

The only childish one I see around here is you making insults as if your higher above people who have a different opinion than you.

...

*exasperated choking sound*

If you paid any attention to what I've been saying during my more drawn-out rants on these boards, you'd see this isn't a matter of just "differing opinions," but the specific content of those opinions.

Good lord... I mean, even if it was while insulting me that you actually said something that wasn't shallow, trite and meaningless, that would be progress. It's like you're like a talking wind-up toy manufactured by Marvel Enterprises. I mean, it doesn't take much to make me depressed, but you're killin' me here. :(

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

you can D/l the ten second clips here

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RIMQKRHHZVTR1TCCZXRUGAXGL (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RIMQKRHHZVTR1TCCZXRUGAXGL)


http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3OV0O3TPSX44U338B84A3BMOXA (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3OV0O3TPSX44U338B84A3BMOXA)

Thanks! I hope Black takes this role seriously.

[Hunter Rider]

...

*exasperated choking sound*

If you paid any attention to what I've been saying during my more drawn-out rants on these boards, you'd see this isn't a matter of just "differing opinions," but the specific content of those opinions.

Good lord... I mean, even if it was while insulting me that you actually said something that wasn't shallow, trite and meaningless, that would be progress. It's like you're like a talking wind-up toy manufactured by Marvel Enterprises. I mean, it doesn't take much to make me depressed, but you're killin' me here. :(

:wolverine

I shall clarify,Herr doesnt have a problem with ppl liking movie Doom or accepting hi,he just gets pissed when ppl try to claim that the changes arent there and that there wasnt another feasible way to do it more faith fully

Right Herr ??

[Herr Logan]

lol My friend you are on fine form today:D :up:
its the advert from one of the TV networks promoting the debut of the trailer on their channel this monday

Thank ye kindly, Hunter. :up:

Seriously, doesn't it seem ridiculous that we actually have previews for previews? What kind of audience is salivating at a pre-preview that they would even release something like that??
I don't know whether to be happy that other people's lives are apparently as empty as mine feels much of the time, or just even more disillusioned. :(

:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision)

That is an insult towards me...sorry.

[Hunter Rider]

Thank ye kindly, Hunter. :up:

Seriously, doesn't it seem ridiculous that we actually have previews for previews? What kind of audience is salivating at a pre-preview that they would even release something like that??
I don't know whether to be happy that other people's lives are apparently as empty as mine feels much of the time, or just even more disillusioned. :(

:wolverine

I think on this occasion it is all buissness,the Channels are trying to draw aduiences with the debut of the full 2.30 min trailer or on Monday
If it makes you feel any better i was quite giddy over those 10 second clips:( :up:

[RedIsNotBlue]

I shall clarify,Herr doesnt have a problem with ppl liking movie Doom or accepting hi,he just gets pissed when ppl try to claim that the changes arent there and that there wasnt another feasible way to do it more faith fully

Right Herr ??

Oh my god. This getting frustrating repeating myself. I will write it all in caps this time to make it clearer. I NEVER SAID THAT CHANGES ARENT THERE. I HAVE CLEARLY SAID THAT I HAVE EMBRACED THE CHANGES AND I FEEL THAT MOVIE DOOM IS BETTER ON SCREEN THAN THE COMIC DOOM COULD HAVE BEEN. AND OF COURSE THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A MORE FAITHFUL DOOM AND I BELEIVE THE MORE FAITHFUL THEY WOULD HAVE MADE HIM IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CHEESIER AND HARDER TO ACCEPT.

Okay...I hope thats clear now. :joker:

[Hunter Rider]

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision)

That is an insult towards me...sorry.

i think he is refering more to those that think that it was unmanageable another way,not those that just like it for what it is,anyway im sure you 2 can sort it out

last time i bother to be peacemaker:mad: :p

[Hunter Rider]

Oh my god. This getting frustrating repeating myself. I will write it all in caps this time to make it clearer. I NEVER SAID THAT CHANGES ARENT THERE. I HAVE CLEARLY SAID THAT I HAVE EMBRACED THE CHANGES AND I FEEL THAT MOVIE DOOM IS BETTER ON SCREEN THAN THE COMIC DOOM COULD HAVE BEEN. AND OF COURSE THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A MORE FAITHFUL DOOM AND I BELEIVE THE MORE FAITHFUL THEY WOULD HAVE MADE HIM IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CHEESIER AND HARDER TO ACCEPT.

Okay...I hope thats clear now. :joker:

hmmmm that wasnt what im was clarifying as i dont think Herr was directing the previous verbage at you....anyway nevermind:)

[Joe Rockhead]

I'm saying WE here at SHH who are having this discussion. And again the general public didn't know where things were gong with the Star Wars films. Neither did most know where things were going with LOTR. Yet the films were well made enough to keep people coming back. so the studio can "appeal' to them merely by making excellent films.


Star Wars: A New Hope was made as a standalone movie. It had elements that could be carried forward in a sequel, but without the sequels, would still be a complete movie. Lucas certainly intended to move forward with sequels, but judging by Fox's lack of confidence in the project (fear of rising costs versus expectations of returns, initial release in only 32 theaters), he made the movie so that it could stand on it's own even without the sequels being made. If he didn't structure it as such, the studio certainly wouldn't have signed off on it...they were too worried about it failing to allow that.


Any first movie is used to set up a firm foundation. So some conflict should be resolved in one movie, leaving some other things open for later development. I'm not saying all things get resolved, but some certainly must for it to be a complete film.

And they are. they learn top use their powers and function as a team. we know they're heroes and they stop Doom's first scheme.

Fair enough. Some things are settled, some are left open.



No it isn't. The group has been who it is whether Reed & Sue were together or not. There was even a point when Sue left the team, separating from Reed and the team continued. Reed and sue love each other, that's for certain and should be established. i'm just saying that they don't have to be getting married, or planning to be married or ven proposing by the end of the first film. Not if this screentime can be devoted to telling a compelling story like Doom's origin.

Even when they weren't together, their storylines continued as part of the whole. When Sue left the group, she was still part of the series. When Reed was killed off with Doom, he was still on Sue's mind.

The whole idea of leaving the marriage issue unresolved flies directly in the face of those who think that Doom MUST be the monarch of Latveria from the very beginning. There's nothing wrong with having their relationship progress to a commitment over 3 movies, but there's something wrong with Doom ascending to the throne over 3 movies?

Their marriage and having Franklin doesn't reflect character development. Those are subplots.

Subplots that involve character development. How do Reed and Sue approach the marriage? How is that accepted by Johnny and Ben? How about a pregnancy? What effect on the characters does an impending birth create?

The accident that gives them their powers is a subplot. How they react to the accident leads character development.

It has to be a good film to have any "guarantee" of success. Doom being established as a powerful villain with strong back story isn't something that would appeal exclusively to comic book fans. The FF and Doom having a strong rivalry isn't either. And certainly the general audience wants a dramatic final confrontation. Show me the movie audience that says they want a simplistic and watered down villain.

Naturally no one wants to see a watered down villain. But it's a question of perception. What you or I see as the watering down of a villain, the general public does not. What the FF fan community sees as an aberration, the general public sees differently. They're not basing their judgements on 44 years of history, they're basing it on a movie and maybe an animated series their kids watched back in '97.

[Dragon]

here see if this cheers you up:)

http://img178.echo.cx/img178/9335/14ca.gif

http://img277.echo.cx/img277/5110/22ya.gif


http://img249.echo.cx/img249/386/38bg.gif

Now that's how you adapt a film. You look at what makes it badass and make it more badass.

[The Apatow Crew]

is it me or does it look like a dinosaur is in the second gif trying to get that guy?

[Dark Phantom]

Wait! What movies are these? I recognize King Kong, but what about the others?

[Kelly]

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision)

That is an insult towards me...sorry.


Yeah thats his usual one....but don't take it so personally....he's pretty much used that one on all of us...except the fact that he didn't put sheep in that one....hmmmmm....he might not be himself today.....:)

[Herr Logan]

I shall clarify,Herr doesnt have a problem with ppl liking movie Doom or accepting hi,he just gets pissed when ppl try to claim that the changes arent there and that there wasnt another feasible way to do it more faith fully

Right Herr ??

Dammit, I meant to reply to this earlier, but I got pulled away. I doubt it matters either way, since the unfavorable group of people who have such a simplistic and shallow view of what we're talking about never listen when I state my exact position and reasoning here.

In any case, yes, that's what I mean. That's not the full story, but it's enough, because like I said, it doesn't matter how many times I explain the obvious facts; very few people ever listen, and the majority of the people likely to actually pay attention have already read it all.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I think on this occasion it is all buissness,the Channels are trying to draw aduiences with the debut of the full 2.30 min trailer or on Monday
If it makes you feel any better i was quite giddy over those 10 second clips:( :up:

Well... they are pretty damn cool, I admit. :o

I just hate the principal of the thing, you know?

:wolverine

[Kelly]

Well... they are pretty damn cool, I admit. :o

I just hate the principal of the thing, you know?

:wolverine



Awwwww damn it Herr, just enjoy the damn clip....will ya????.....geeeeeezzz.....


why does everything have to be principal w/ you???......enjoy it damn it....:)

[Herr Logan]

Yeah thats his usual one....but don't take it so personally....he's pretty much used that one on all of us...except the fact that he didn't put sheep in that one....hmmmmm....he might not be himself today.....:)

It was a semi-good day. My fiancee and I applied for a new apartment and I'm pretty sure I've secured that crappy retail job I've been trying to get.

:wolverine

[Kelly]

It was a semi-good day. My fiancee and I applied for a new apartment and I'm pretty sure I've secured that crappy retail job I've been trying to get.

:wolverine


OOOOOOhhhh well then "sheep" should have been part of that rant Herr......geeeez i'm totally disappointed in you......:p

[wetgorilla]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

Doom is not Doom, and not just in name. In personality also. There is so little of Doom in there, it's depressing. I've discussed this so many times i've lost count. If people think he's faithful, then they don't know enough about him. Heck, if they think he's better, then they better go and read some of the great comics with Doom to see why their opinion might change pretty fast on the matter. Doom is not just a great villain, he's by and FAR the greatest villain.

Here's the old review I made about how Doom was portrayed in the book, since I have no envy to repeat myself, other than by quoting myself, of course:

Now, I had lost all hopes nearly a year ago. Having read the Frost script (which, btw, is nearly THE exact same as the newest movie, nearly nothing has changed), I was heavily disappointed by how Doom acted, his origin, and his powers. But, Lightning Strikez! gave me hopes. He's always been great doing so (and he should always continue to ) by providing us exemples as to why Doom from the movie wouldn't be THAT far away. Unfortunately, the exemples he gave were all that made Doom remotely close to his comic self.

Victor is madly in love with Sue, even if he often tries to deny it. Sure, when he goes ga-ga crazy, he begins to totally hate her, but that's something else (since he's crazy). The thing here, is that Victor, before his "accident" isn't Doom at all. Doom should always be Doom, even before his accident.

Here, he isn't. He's a ruthless businessman, who fought to be where he is, but that... isn't even CLOSE to Doom's dreams. He should see far much further than he does. When he goes crazy, he makes a reference to Leonard (his kind of secretary) about how he should think bigger. But, never (aside from here) does he ever even ATTEMP to show us (or try) to want something global, other than money and "more electricity".

Another thing. Since Doom was always Doom in the comics, he didn't think much bigger when he had his accident. He already wanted more. Here, we are led to believe that he was "human" before, but after his accident, someone acting like Doom can only be "crazy". That's what he is in the movie. A crazy metal dude. He's not a true "God among manking", he's a freak of nature that goes on a rampage, a lot like Electro himself often do. He's just NOT Doom. Thinking about it, his situation is simular to that of Norman Osborn in the first spiderman movie. Both got crazy after their accident, explaining why they were "eviiiIIiiil", which is lame, imo, since Doom was always much more than just evil. But here, that's all he is when he become "Doctor Doom"... (just the fact that he become Doctor Doom is horrible, since he should always have been himself).

And worse, much worse than all of that, he's not even HALF the scientific mind Richard his. What made Doom SUCH A GREAT villain (or heck, more than a villain) was his intellect. Here, sure, he's intelligent, manipulative, but so much less than Reed. Doom being anything less than Reed's equal (much less not even half his genius) is absolutely atrocious. Heck, Doom never does anything by himself. He always hired scientist and doctors to make his discoveries. There's even a scene (showed in the trailer), when he has to go to a doctor to know what is happening to him. MY GOD. We are talking about DOOM here. He would NEVER ask someone's else opinion, much less about his condition, when he himself could analyse it much better (alas, not here, though). For he is suppose to be DOOM. And DOOM is above all.

At the end, when he loses and become a living statue, the writers had the golden possibility to have Doom cry a last "RiiiIIIIIiiiichard". I mean, when I got there, I though it was the PERFECT PLACE. But no, instead he seems to cry a "noooooOOooooooooo" (and by all that is in the bottom of my holy rectum, I hope it's not as horrible as the one Vader cries at the end of ROTS).

I could have forgiven his relation to Sue, his mutant powers, but NOT what made him superior to all villains, his INTELLECT. That, imo, is a change I cannot forgive, which is stupid, and makes me cringe just thinking about it.

But that's not all. I won't go into his powers, and all, since we've all discussed that dozen of times here, but I want to address the Sue/Victor relationship.

It's a mess, imo. Lightning said that Doom never truly cared about Sue. Having read the book, i'd say he was wrong (sorry). Doom cared about Sue, a lot, even if he seems to want to not accept it. When she goes in Reed's arms, he is hurted a lot. But, all this really does is make Sue a bad character, imo. Really, she goes out two years with Victor. She probably fell "something" for him, for godsake. Two years. And yet, the instant Reed comes back, she runs in his arms. That, no problem here. She loved the dude even more than the old doctor. It's understandable. But, once Reed was back, she stopped caring about Victor. She didn't even noticed he existed anymore. I mean, when everything goes wrong for him, she doesn't even think about him. He could have died she wouldn't even have cared. That makes her something much closer to a bad girl (villain here) than a hero, imo. Victor goes crazy, and that's in part due to how she left him, and pull a finger on him, without no other reason than that she loved another man more. She completely left him, without even truly telling him how she truly felt about all of this. When he becomes a statue, at the very end, she's all too happy to be "discarded" of her ex-boyfriend, like some mean 16 years old adolescent on a rampage.

That's a pretty bad reason, imo. Exactly the kind of person I could never respect. That's the kind of character i'm going to root for in theatre ? Sure, i wanted the FF to win when I read the book, but not Sue. Victor could have fried her i'd have been relieved. Here's hoping Jessica Alba's so good she'll make me think otherwise.

So, Sue's a pretty messed up character here , and Doom's one of the worst adaptation possible of the greatest villain there is.

But, imo, movie Doom is still a great villain. He's easily, just after Magneto, the second best superhero movie villain. Easily. If he had been faithful, he would have took the first place without any difficulty, but oh well. A 10% faithful Doom is still better than most villains.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.

If you people want to understand why Doom's such a great villain, unlike his movie counterpart, go read Secret war, or the Doom 2099 by Warren Ellis, or the three part storyarc by Chuck Dixon named "DOOM". I'd recommend those to the ones who don't know him much. Then, well, there is so much more. :doom:

This review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. The character of Doom has been tipped over a sawhorse and raped by this production team!

I was reading a magazine today with a small interview with Julian McMahon and Julian stated he 'studied' to play Doom by spending weeks watching horror films! How pathetic and ignorant his approach to this character was. This is just a small reflection of how the entire production approached this project. If anyone here believes Story or the rest of the crew paid much attention to the source material while deciding upon a direction for this project, you'd be giving them too much credit.

Once again, this review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. Happy reading! :cool:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

This review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. The character of Doom has been tipped over a sawhorse and raped by this production team!

I was reading a magazine today with a small interview with Julian McMahon and Julian stated he 'studied' to play Doom by spending weeks watching horror films! How pathetic and ignorant his approach to this character was. This is just a small reflection of how the entire production approached this project. If anyone here believes Story or the rest of the crew paid much attention to the source material while deciding upon a direction for this project, you'd be giving them too much credit.

Once again, this review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. Happy reading! :cool:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Sometimes when I read your posts Wet they remind me so much of Harry Knowles on AICN that I'd swear you two were the same person. :rolleyes:

Hmmm.

:cool:

[lockjaw]

Sometimes when I read your posts Wet they remind me so much of Harry Knowles on AICN that I'd swear you two were the same person. :rolleyes:

Hmmm.

:cool:

Not the same but close "friends". Pictured below Harry (in bald cap) and WG are spreading mad negativity . . .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/olfatback/gorillas.bmp (http://photobucket.com/albums/v717/olfatback/?)

no animals were hurt in this photo

[Kelly]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSxdm519)


You people are hell bent on quoting aren't ya....its a conspiracy against me having a pleasant time on this forum....



a conspiracy......a conspiracy i tell ya........



*goes to search for mel gibson*

[wetgorilla]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion.

What's your definition of 'open minded opinion'. Let me guess....an opinion that isn't an opinion at all? Maybe one that is devoid of any mental posture? Hell, Saint stated his position, gave reasons for such a position, and also provided examples from which he based his conclusions. So, where are you coming from with this statement?


While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.

Sounds logical - Toss out any regard for facts and adopt an axiom of reason based on feelings and disregard! Good job, Bingo!


Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.
What? Did you stand behind Lightning while he thumbed through each page?? It appears you base your doubts not on a lack of evidence - but rather the southwinds of your feelings! Good luck with that approach to issues. :p

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

Not the same but close "friends". Pictured below Harry (in bald cap) and WG are spreading mad negativity . . .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/olfatback/gorillas.bmp (http://photobucket.com/albums/v717/olfatback/?)

no animals were hurt in this photo

Hey, I like that picture! LOL. But, tell the truth, Lockjaw.....that was you I was hugging onto during the bike-rally! :p

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
Oh, I forgot! That was our little secret. Ooopps. ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

This review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. The character of Doom has been tipped over a sawhorse and raped by this production team!

I was reading a magazine today with a small interview with Julian McMahon and Julian stated he 'studied' to play Doom by spending weeks watching horror films! How pathetic and ignorant his approach to this character was. This is just a small reflection of how the entire production approached this project. If anyone here believes Story or the rest of the crew paid much attention to the source material while deciding upon a direction for this project, you'd be giving them too much credit.

Once again, this review NEEDS to be returned to the top of this thread. Happy reading! :cool:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

What's bothering me, at least, part of it, is how often Julian and co. (including Tim Story) tells in interviews how "true" to the character this adaption of Doom "truly" is, when, really, if you know your stuff, you sure as **** know you couldn't be that much farther away from the source material then they are getting.

At least if they could admit they made countless changes, and that they AT LEAST tried to defend their all new villain, instead of throwing at us again how "faithful" he is, it would be a tad least frustrating. Why not DEFEND their character, admitting they made changes ? Why lie, when it's clearly a lie ?

"God bless the edit button!"

[Kelly]

Omg....rape...you are comparing it to rape????? you are.....thes....i'm sorry...but thats just gross....

[TheSaintofKillers]

Omg....rape...you are comparing it to rape????? you are.....thes....i'm sorry...but thats just gross....

Of course I am, i've always been a disturbed freak. A proud one, though.

Heck, here's a movie I filmed not too long ago.

http://g1mike.sidpowered.com/index2.html

It's on my friend's website, on the main page. (in the news' section). It's more of a practiced of the kind of images I can filmed right now, actually.

Oh, and that's me in the clown's outift. ;)

(the resolution's pretty bad, but I had to throw away something to put it on the internet, oh well)

Enjoy. :p

[Kelly]

Of course I am, i've always been a disturbed freak. A proud one, though.

Heck, here's a movie I filmed not too long ago.

http://g1mike.sidpowered.com/index2.html

It's on my friend's website, on the main page. in the news' section). It's more of a practiced of the kind of images I can filmed right now, actually.

Oh, and that's me in the clown's outift. ;)

Enjoy. :p


i think i'll ummmmm pass......

[TheSaintofKillers]

i think i'll ummmmm pass......


Well, you could have seen the raping "theme" i'm using, heh.

[TheSaintofKillers]

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision), very little in this world could be worse than what you just wrote about the bat. :(

:wolverine

Actually, I don't think it's any worse than what they are doing to Doom. All I did was change the name, and the location for it to apply to the bat. But, really, it's pretty much the same.

[Kelly]

Well, you could have seen the raping "theme" i'm using, heh.

ok...

[TheSaintofKillers]

ok...

Hey, i'm not evil. I just like to make evil things.

And yes, you can quote me on that someday. ;)

(oh, and it's not everyday you put a video of yourself on the internet, and, while there's some raping going on in there, no real porn is involved. At least, give me credit on that. :joker: )

[Kmack]

Of course I am, i've always been a disturbed freak. A proud one, though.

Heck, here's a movie I filmed not too long ago.

http://g1mike.sidpowered.com/index2.html

It's on my friend's website, on the main page. (in the news' section). It's more of a practiced of the kind of images I can filmed right now, actually.

Oh, and that's me in the clown's outift. ;)

(the resolution's pretty bad, but I had to throw away something to put it on the internet, oh well)

Enjoy. :p
That was extremely disturbing:o

[TheSaintofKillers]

That was extremely disturbing:o

You wouldn't believe how many "You, mister, are ****ed top" replied I got from viewers when I screened that in front of 200 people, with children and old people.

Best 4 minutes of my life, of course. :)

[wetgorilla]

What's bothering me, at least, part of it, is how often Julian and co. (including Tim Story) tells in interviews how "true" to the character this adaption of Doom "truly" is, when, really, if you know your stuff, you sure as **** know you couldn't be that much farther away from the source material then they are getting.:o

The reason for that strange phenomenon, is simple - None of them have really read the FF or at the very least spent any nominal time researching the 300+ issue run.

Can anyone see Julian M. spending the weekend reading issue 1-50 (not too small of a task to ask if you're being paid over a million bucks for a few months of work)? Instead he spends a week popping in a few 'horror' movies. Ugghh!

How about Jessica Alba? Does anyone here feel Jessica is the type to spend a few hours reading the entire John Byrne run of the eighties?? Or maybe she might have been too busy filming Sin City and the rest of her cinematic appearances? hmmmmmm.

Tim Story - Nah. The developed script and his final product will speak for itself.

Oh, well. It is what It is. :down

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
I thought I was going to be able to stay off this forum until after screening it - but y'all dragged me back in with your condemnation of objectivity. So balance needs to be reinstated!

[TheSaintofKillers]

The reason for that strange phenomenon, is simple - None of them have really read the FF or at the very least spent any nominal time researching the 300+ issue run.

Can anyone see Julian M. spending the weekend reading issue 1-50 (not too small of a task to ask if you're being paid over a million bucks for a few months of work)? Instead he spends a week popping in a few 'horror' movies. Ugghh!

How about Jessica Alba? Does anyone here feel Jessica is the type to spend a few hours reading the entire John Byrne run of the eighties?? Or maybe she might have been too busy filming Sin City and the rest of her cinematic appearances? hmmmmmm.

Tim Story - Nah. The developed script and his final product will speak for itself.

Oh, well. It is what It is. :down

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
I thought I was going to be able to stay off this forum until after screening it - but y'all dragged me back in with your condemnation of objectivity. So balance needs to be reinstated!

What's funny, is that most of them "read comic books when they were young", and remember how cool they though they were. Yet, they never went back, not even for the movie.

Julian speaks of Doom, saying how he was his coolest villain ever, but i've got a feeling that if he had had the role for bulleye, he'd be saying the very same thing, but with a certain targetman instead.

[wetgorilla]

That was extremely disturbing:o

extremely disturbing! I'm going to have to watch some HGTV to wash that out of my semian brain! LOL

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Awwwww damn it Herr, just enjoy the damn clip....will ya????.....geeeeeezzz.....


why does everything have to be principal w/ you???......enjoy it damn it....:)

Don't you tell me how to enjoy movie clips of enormous primates, woman! :mad:

Yes'm. :o

:wolverine

[wetgorilla]

Although, while I watched your movie....I had to admit to myself, your director created a very strong sense of suspense and cinematic tension by not revealing too much. I particularly liked how the girl and other characters were half-hidden in shadows most of the time. The short really had no direction and relied upon shock images a little too much. I do understand it was just a 4-minute reel and as much theatrics had to be squeezed in.

Your performance was .....uh....entertaining!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Sardaukar]

Dear Christ!

You guys rule. :up:

Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any better it does...

Here I am reading about the sabotaging of Doom and then it's about clown movies and rape and King Kong.

So totally ****ed up...

ROFLMAO

[Herr Logan]

Edit: Mmm... Twizzlers...

:wolverine

[Lightning Strykez!]

Lord, I'll be so glad when this movie gets here, if for anything to silence some of the misplaced *****ing around here.

1.) Tim Story did not write the script--he has no credit there. Now he IS responsible for adding many of the nuances we'll see i.e. The Yancey Street gang, H.E.R.B.I.E (if it makes the final cut), the Fantasticar, and many other items. And sorry, but unless he's crammed in all of that comic reading in the last few months, his claim to read/collected FF since he was age 11 comes through loud and clear in his interviews. He and his team also fought for a lot of the changes that we've seen since January.

2.) It was 20th Century Fox that called for the reorg on Doctor Doom--they wanted him updated for this origin film. Whether their approach works or not remains to be seen, but this is not the first time they've made an adjustment and it worked out even better on-screen.

Saint & Wet, I suggest you pick up the "Making Of The Movie" and read it. It will show you want Tim wanted and what the studio *permitted*. For example, if it weren't for Tim and his team, your Dr. Doom wouldn't have even been given a mask at all. The studio wanted face make-up only...so count your blessings.

[Herr Logan]

OOOOOOhhhh well then "sheep" should have been part of that rant Herr......geeeez i'm totally disappointed in you......:p

I reckon I'm just getting weary of hearing the same ignorant nonsense repeated to me by people with precious little imagination and insight. It's like in my mind, I already called him a sheep, so I didn't feel the need to in real life. Weird.

:wolverine

[Sardaukar]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

Doom is not Doom, and not just in name. In personality also. There is so little of Doom in there, it's depressing. I've discussed this so many times i've lost count. If people think he's faithful, then they don't know enough about him. Heck, if they think he's better, then they better go and read some of the great comics with Doom to see why their opinion might change pretty fast on the matter. Doom is not just a great villain, he's by and FAR the greatest villain.

Here's the old review I made about how Doom was portrayed in the book, since I have no envy to repeat myself, other than by quoting myself, of course:

Now, I had lost all hopes nearly a year ago. Having read the Frost script (which, btw, is nearly THE exact same as the newest movie, nearly nothing has changed), I was heavily disappointed by how Doom acted, his origin, and his powers. But, Lightning Strikez! gave me hopes. He's always been great doing so (and he should always continue to ) by providing us exemples as to why Doom from the movie wouldn't be THAT far away. Unfortunately, the exemples he gave were all that made Doom remotely close to his comic self.

Victor is madly in love with Sue, even if he often tries to deny it. Sure, when he goes ga-ga crazy, he begins to totally hate her, but that's something else (since he's crazy). The thing here, is that Victor, before his "accident" isn't Doom at all. Doom should always be Doom, even before his accident.

Here, he isn't. He's a ruthless businessman, who fought to be where he is, but that... isn't even CLOSE to Doom's dreams. He should see far much further than he does. When he goes crazy, he makes a reference to Leonard (his kind of secretary) about how he should think bigger. But, never (aside from here) does he ever even ATTEMP to show us (or try) to want something global, other than money and "more electricity".

Another thing. Since Doom was always Doom in the comics, he didn't think much bigger when he had his accident. He already wanted more. Here, we are led to believe that he was "human" before, but after his accident, someone acting like Doom can only be "crazy". That's what he is in the movie. A crazy metal dude. He's not a true "God among manking", he's a freak of nature that goes on a rampage, a lot like Electro himself often do. He's just NOT Doom. Thinking about it, his situation is simular to that of Norman Osborn in the first spiderman movie. Both got crazy after their accident, explaining why they were "eviiiIIiiil", which is lame, imo, since Doom was always much more than just evil. But here, that's all he is when he become "Doctor Doom"... (just the fact that he become Doctor Doom is horrible, since he should always have been himself).

And worse, much worse than all of that, he's not even HALF the scientific mind Richard his. What made Doom SUCH A GREAT villain (or heck, more than a villain) was his intellect. Here, sure, he's intelligent, manipulative, but so much less than Reed. Doom being anything less than Reed's equal (much less not even half his genius) is absolutely atrocious. Heck, Doom never does anything by himself. He always hired scientist and doctors to make his discoveries. There's even a scene (showed in the trailer), when he has to go to a doctor to know what is happening to him. MY GOD. We are talking about DOOM here. He would NEVER ask someone's else opinion, much less about his condition, when he himself could analyse it much better (alas, not here, though). For he is suppose to be DOOM. And DOOM is above all.

At the end, when he loses and become a living statue, the writers had the golden possibility to have Doom cry a last "RiiiIIIIIiiiichard". I mean, when I got there, I though it was the PERFECT PLACE. But no, instead he seems to cry a "noooooOOooooooooo" (and by all that is in the bottom of my holy rectum, I hope it's not as horrible as the one Vader cries at the end of ROTS).

I could have forgiven his relation to Sue, his mutant powers, but NOT what made him superior to all villains, his INTELLECT. That, imo, is a change I cannot forgive, which is stupid, and makes me cringe just thinking about it.

But that's not all. I won't go into his powers, and all, since we've all discussed that dozen of times here, but I want to address the Sue/Victor relationship.

It's a mess, imo. Lightning said that Doom never truly cared about Sue. Having read the book, i'd say he was wrong (sorry). Doom cared about Sue, a lot, even if he seems to want to not accept it. When she goes in Reed's arms, he is hurted a lot. But, all this really does is make Sue a bad character, imo. Really, she goes out two years with Victor. She probably fell "something" for him, for godsake. Two years. And yet, the instant Reed comes back, she runs in his arms. That, no problem here. She loved the dude even more than the old doctor. It's understandable. But, once Reed was back, she stopped caring about Victor. She didn't even noticed he existed anymore. I mean, when everything goes wrong for him, she doesn't even think about him. He could have died she wouldn't even have cared. That makes her something much closer to a bad girl (villain here) than a hero, imo. Victor goes crazy, and that's in part due to how she left him, and pull a finger on him, without no other reason than that she loved another man more. She completely left him, without even truly telling him how she truly felt about all of this. When he becomes a statue, at the very end, she's all too happy to be "discarded" of her ex-boyfriend, like some mean 16 years old adolescent on a rampage.

That's a pretty bad reason, imo. Exactly the kind of person I could never respect. That's the kind of character i'm going to root for in theatre ? Sure, i wanted the FF to win when I read the book, but not Sue. Victor could have fried her i'd have been relieved. Here's hoping Jessica Alba's so good she'll make me think otherwise.

So, Sue's a pretty messed up character here , and Doom's one of the worst adaptation possible of the greatest villain there is.

But, imo, movie Doom is still a great villain. He's easily, just after Magneto, the second best superhero movie villain. Easily. If he had been faithful, he would have took the first place without any difficulty, but oh well. A 10% faithful Doom is still better than most villains.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.

If you people want to understand why Doom's such a great villain, unlike his movie counterpart, go read Secret war, or the Doom 2099 by Warren Ellis, or the three part storyarc by Chuck Dixon named "DOOM". I'd recommend those to the ones who don't know him much. Then, well, there is so much more. :doom:

Anyways...great job, Saint!

You have confirmed my worst fears...

I mean, how hard is it to make movie Doom at least as smart as Reed?

How can anyone actually defend such a basic change in Doom's character?

Even if I agreed (which I don't) that CEO Doom was necessary, that organic armor was necessary, that the love triangle was necessary...

...why is it also necessary to dumb the character down, intelligence-wise?

It just makes no sense to me.

[Sardaukar]

1.) Tim Story did not write the script--he has no credit there. Now he IS responsible for adding many of the nuances we'll see i.e. The Yancey Street gang, H.E.R.B.I.E (if it makes the final cut), the Fantasticar, and many other items. And sorry, but unless he's crammed in all of that comic reading in the last few months, his claim to read/collected FF since he was age 11 comes through loud and clear in his interviews. He and his team also fought for a lot of the changes that we've seen since January.




Yeah, I agree. FOX loves to screw with movies. They did it with I, ROBOT and pissed Alex Proyas off. They did it with X1 and X2 and finally succeeded in pissing Bryan Singer off.

I don't blame Story. He's not the one in control. And why should he care about remaining true to Doom's character? Keeping the studio happy should be more important to him than keeping fans happy...for his sake, anyway.

Actually, I blame Marvel most of all. It's their job to speak up when their own characters are getting screwed with. I mean, what the hell would a FOX executive really know about Doom, anyway? Obviously, Marvel didn't give a damn in this case. They're more interested in the bottom line.

Whatever.

[wetgorilla]

I don't blame Story. He's not the one in control. And why should he care about remaining true to Doom's character? Keeping the studio happy should be more important to him than keeping fans happy...for his sake, anyway.

You're wrong here (Just like Lightnin) and by repositioning 100% of the blame onto nameless Fox executives you're allowing those accountable for this mockery to go without having to answer for their f***-U*! If either one of you spent an substantial time in the entertainment industry in and around Hollywood you would understand the FULL role a feature-film director is given. The job description includes retooling the script during production. A director isn't at the mercy of the script like a made-for-television movie is; rather the screenwriter's work is at the mercy of the director.

For some reason a few of you on this thread appear to protect Story without any knowledge of the film industry at all. The only intelligent defense that has been made is the underlined comment above.

Some directors want to kiss ass and will go to lengths in an attempt to build a repoire with their producers (who often give them their studio work). As a director, Story has a voice and obligation to stand up against the script and ask for a rewrite.

Now, I'm not saying Story won't produce a cool movie (cinematically) - I know he's never been given the chance and hell, he might be very talented. I can't see what's inside of him. But, from the evidence we do have - he has compromised the characters and storyline of this production. Period.


Saint & Wet, I suggest you pick up the "Making Of The Movie" and read it.


I've read Story's comments/excuses and will only take them as far as he stated them. I lived and worked in and around the film industry during my twenties while in Los Angeles. I know the authority and previlages available to feature-film directors. They're not the powerless creatives trying to put out excellent work only to be shut down by executives. Hollywood is a two-way street!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Dragon]

You're wrong here (Just like Lightnin) and by repositioning 100% of the blame onto nameless Fox executives you're allowing those accountable for this mockery to go without having to answer for their f***-U*! If either one of you spent an substantial time in the entertainment industry in and around Hollywood you would understand the FULL role a feature-film director is given. The job description includes retooling the script during production. A director isn't at the mercy of the script like a made-for-television movie is; rather the screenwriter's work is at the mercy of the director.

For some reason a few of you on this thread appear to protect Story without any knowledge of the film industry at all. The only intelligent defense that has been made is the underlined comment above.

Some directors want to kiss ass and will go to lengths in an attempt to build a repoire with their producers (who often give them their studio work). As a director, Story has a voice and obligation to stand up against the script and ask for a rewrite.

Now, I'm not saying Story won't produce a cool movie (cinematically) - I know he's never been given the chance and hell, he might be very talented. I can't see what's inside of him. But, from the evidence we do have - he has compromised the characters and storyline of this production. Period.



I've read Story's comments/excuses and will only take them as far as he stated them. I lived and worked in and around the film industry during my twenties while in Los Angeles. I know the authority and previlages available to feature-film directors. They're not the powerless creatives trying to put out excellent work only to be shut down by executives. Hollywood is a two-way street!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Agreed Wet.

You don't get hired on a project like this only to be handed a script and told to do the studio's bidding. If Story had come to the studio and Marvel with an effective re-write true to the source material they'd have gone along. Only serious budget restrictions would cause a veto.

[Hunter Rider]

Well... they are pretty damn cool, I admit. :o

I just hate the principal of the thing, you know?

:wolverine

i undersand im just a trailerholic so i let it slide:hyper:

[Hunter Rider]

TheSaintofKillers, I'm as angry as you are about what those lying weasels have done to Dr. Doom, but I have to draw the line at comparing it to rape. That's not a word, image or idea to be tossed around lightly. I'm as sick a bastard as any other, but this isn't funny. If not for the ladies, then for the sake of me and my delicate sensitivities (more accurately, the unspeakable rage that wells up within me when such horrors are mentioned), don't throw that word around like that. While not nearly as reprehensible, the effect is similar to when a person falsely accuses someone else of rape or if a rape victim is denied justice; it makes the word less powerful, and therefore the thing itself becomes more tolerable to society. Please don't perpetuate that trend.

:wolverine

Great post,I agree 100%

[Kelly]

Don't you tell me how to enjoy movie clips of enormous primates, woman! :mad:

Yes'm. :o

:wolverine


lmao...........OOOhhhhh i'm sorry i shouldn't be laughing......*puts on serious face*........

[Herr Logan]

Edit: Life goes on. Unfortunately.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

lmao...........OOOhhhhh i'm sorry i shouldn't be laughing......*puts on serious face*........

Don't stop on my account, darlin'.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Good to hear. I don't lack a sense of humor, but I think there have to be limits when it comes to public exchanges with people you don't know. We've already seen that this thread is the kind that attracts ignorant children (one of whom apparently got banned quick), and it's the children most of all that shouldn't be desensitized to the subject of rape through inappropriate references and comparisons.

:wolverine

exactly,the violation of a woman by a man is in no way comparable to the changing of a comic characters origin,i think the term bastardization is the best adjective in this instince

[TheSaintofKillers]

exactly,the violation of a woman by a man is in no way comparable to the changing of a comic characters origin,i think the term bastardization is the best adjective in this instince

Actually, my exemple was with two men.

Heh, anyway, sorry about that. Actually, i've got a sense of deja vu here. I made a comment not that far away some months ago, and I think it was BOTH Albafan AND Herr that asked me to not bring such things in here. And I just did again.

Stupid me. Sorry about that, fellows. I'd go and change those posts, but you did quote me, though. ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

Although, while I watched your movie....I had to admit to myself, your director created a very strong sense of suspense and cinematic tension by not revealing too much. I particularly liked how the girl and other characters were half-hidden in shadows most of the time. The short really had no direction and relied upon shock images a little too much. I do understand it was just a 4-minute reel and as much theatrics had to be squeezed in.

Your performance was .....uh....entertaining!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Actually, i'm the director. :p
I consider knowing horror much better than most of the human being on this tiny planet, and i'm going to prove it in the coming months. Oh, and it was never supposed to be anything less or more than an essay at squeezed images. It was more of a little praticed about what I could do, or couldn't.

Still, thanks, gorilla.

(oh, and as for the clown, I just couldn't get an actor to convey what I wanted, and so I said **** it, i'll go and do it. I'm no actor, but it is the director's job (and the director only) to make it the best he can.)

Actually, when I look at Story, I can't find excuses for him. I was able to make every images I had in my mind, even if I had nearly no support aside from my own will to create. While director's visions might be altered in a production, they should always take the blame, no matter what.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Anyways...great job, Saint!

You have confirmed my worst fears...

I mean, how hard is it to make movie Doom at least as smart as Reed?

How can anyone actually defend such a basic change in Doom's character?

Even if I agreed (which I don't) that CEO Doom was necessary, that organic armor was necessary, that the love triangle was necessary...

...why is it also necessary to dumb the character down, intelligence-wise?

It just makes no sense to me.

There's no reason to dumbing down his character's genius. That was the last atrocity I could take, really. Every changes they made was for the worst, imo. BUT, even if I absolutely hate those changes, at least they could maybe be justified by money. I guess. But dumbing down his character,s intelligence can only be justified by people who want to piss on Doom's character the more they can. Not by money! Not at all!

There's NO reasons for THAT! None. Making him more intelligent, or at least, just as much as Reed, wouldn't have cost them more money. Or scared the audience. No ramifications, except having the core of Doom on the big screen. But then again, that would have gone against what they wanted: Something entierely different from Doom.

[Herr Logan]

exactly,the violation of a woman by a man is in no way comparable to the changing of a comic characters origin,i think the term bastardization is the best adjective in this instince

Exactly. I believe dissenting "fanboys" and "nitpickers" like myself can stand our ground and put conformist bullies in their place without resorting to tasteless, disproportionate metaphors. Hell, there are plenty of insidious real-world behaviors that are perfectly appropriate comparisons to what they've done with these characters, as well as the behavior surrounding them-- the reactions to them. It basically boils down to politics, propaganda, and the way citizens tear each other apart while defending or denouncing decisions made my lying opportunists in positions of power. That's not the same as violent crime on a personal level, even metaphorically speaking.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Actually, my exemple was with two men.

Heh, anyway, sorry about that. Actually, i've got a sense of deja vu here. I made a comment not that far away some months ago, and I think it was BOTH Albafan AND Herr that asked me to not bring such things in here. And I just did again.

Stupid me. Sorry about that, fellows. I'd go and change those posts, but you did quote me, though. ;)

I appreciate that, man. You're such a saint. ;)

Dammit, I did quote you, didn't I? I'll go change my posts now. :o

:wolverine

[TheSaintofKillers]

I appreciate that, man. You're such a saint. ;)

Dammit, I did quote you, didn't I? I'll go change my posts now. :o

:wolverine

Changed mine, your turn. ;)

[RedIsNotBlue]

What's your definition of 'open minded opinion'. Let me guess....an opinion that isn't an opinion at all? Maybe one that is devoid of any mental posture? Hell, Saint stated his position, gave reasons for such a position, and also provided examples from which he based his conclusions. So, where are you coming from with this statement?

I never said Saint didn't give his opinion. I just said everything I have seen him type about Doom has seemed purely negative and I don't feel the same as him. With Lightning he is a highly respected poster and the things I have read from him seem level headed and not too positive and not too negative. I would go with his opinion over Saint's on anything. Open minded to me means the person looks at it from both sides of the spectrum and can accept something different. So I say again...Saint can have his opinion...I just don't agree with it.


Sounds logical - Toss out any regard for facts and adopt an axiom of reason based on feelings and disregard! Good job, Bingo!

Facts? When did facts come into play? This whole thread has been basically nothing but feelings and opinions. Bingo!

What? Did you stand behind Lightning while he thumbed through each page?? It appears you base your doubts not on a lack of evidence - but rather the southwinds of your feelings! Good luck with that approach to issues. :p

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

Nope but he dedicated an entire thread on a script review of the characters. So your telling me I should go with someone who is basing his opinion on a novel that has been released long before the movie? Sorry for agreeing with someone who has a better knowledge of the film. :)

[GoblinScrier]

While some major changes have happened to Movie Doom vs. Comic Doom, there are 3 central traits of Doom in general:

1)His genius

2)His lust for power

3)His hatred of Richards


1)The genius--Look at the space station, look at the freezing apparatus he designs for Richards, the various gadgets, plus in the movie, both Doom and Richards go to MIT so yes they are keeping his genius in tact.

2)Lust for power--Well nothing says power like "I've always wanted power, now I have an unlimited supply...ha ha ha ha ha" and "Victor, you always thought you were a god." Doom wants power...simple as that and next on the list...Latveria

3)His hatred of Richards...does this really need to be elaborated ? Trust me...it is there.

[RedIsNotBlue]

While some major changes have happened to Movie Doom vs. Comic Doom, there are 3 central traits of Doom in general:

1)His genius

2)His lust for power

3)His hatred of Richards


1)The genius--Look at the space station, look at the freezing apparatus he designs for Richards, the various gadgets, plus in the movie, both Doom and Richards go to MIT so yes they are keeping his genius in tact.

2)Lust for power--Well nothing says power like "I've always wanted power, now I have an unlimited supply...ha ha ha ha ha" and "Victor, you always thought you were a god." Doom wants power...simple as that and next on the list...Latveria

3)His hatred of Richards...does this really need to be elaborated ? Trust me...it is there.

:up:

[Sardaukar]

You're wrong here (Just like Lightnin) and by repositioning 100% of the blame onto nameless Fox executives you're allowing those accountable for this mockery to go without having to answer for their f***-U*! If either one of you spent an substantial time in the entertainment industry in and around Hollywood you would understand the FULL role a feature-film director is given. The job description includes retooling the script during production. A director isn't at the mercy of the script like a made-for-television movie is; rather the screenwriter's work is at the mercy of the director.

For some reason a few of you on this thread appear to protect Story without any knowledge of the film industry at all. The only intelligent defense that has been made is the underlined comment above.

Some directors want to kiss ass and will go to lengths in an attempt to build a repoire with their producers (who often give them their studio work). As a director, Story has a voice and obligation to stand up against the script and ask for a rewrite.

Now, I'm not saying Story won't produce a cool movie (cinematically) - I know he's never been given the chance and hell, he might be very talented. I can't see what's inside of him. But, from the evidence we do have - he has compromised the characters and storyline of this production. Period.



I've read Story's comments/excuses and will only take them as far as he stated them. I lived and worked in and around the film industry during my twenties while in Los Angeles. I know the authority and previlages available to feature-film directors. They're not the powerless creatives trying to put out excellent work only to be shut down by executives. Hollywood is a two-way street!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

I hear what you're saying and you may be right. Believe me, it's not like I'm a Tim Story fan who's willing to defend him to death or anything. I have no emotional stake in this. All I know is that FOX has a huge reputation for screwing over their directors and micromanaging their films.

True, Story definitely had some input into the creative process of the script. All I'm saying is that if I was Story and my choice was either A. mess with the script to please some diehard Doom fans or B. take no chances, leave things alone and make my bosses happy (or make things easier for myself because I have a heck of a lot of other things to worry about than changing an already approved script), I'd probably choose option B for the sake of my career.

Obviously I wish he had chosen A but what can I do?

[Sardaukar]

While some major changes have happened to Movie Doom vs. Comic Doom, there are 3 central traits of Doom in general:

1)His genius

2)His lust for power

3)His hatred of Richards


1)The genius--Look at the space station, look at the freezing apparatus he designs for Richards, the various gadgets, plus in the movie, both Doom and Richards go to MIT so yes they are keeping his genius in tact.

2)Lust for power--Well nothing says power like "I've always wanted power, now I have an unlimited supply...ha ha ha ha ha" and "Victor, you always thought you were a god." Doom wants power...simple as that and next on the list...Latveria

3)His hatred of Richards...does this really need to be elaborated ? Trust me...it is there.

Sure, these things may be there, but how well are they done?

For instance, I'm not a big fan of the Hulk movie.

The Hulk in that movie seems follow all the criteria...

1. He's big, strong, indescructible, etc.

2. He gets more powerful the madder he gets.

3. He has a "weak", mild mannered alter ego.

But was the character in that film nearly as good in the movie as he is in the comics?

Not in my opinion.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Sure, these things may be there, but how well are they done?

For instance, I'm not a big fan of the Hulk movie.

The Hulk in that movie seems follow all the criteria...

1. He's big, strong, indescructible, etc.

2. He gets more powerful the madder he gets.

3. He has a "weak", mild mannered alter ego.

But was the character in that film nearly as good in the movie as he is in the comics?

Not in my opinion.

We are going to have to see the movie for this. And plus the director didn't do the Doom movements for the movie...haha.

[Dragon]

While some major changes have happened to Movie Doom vs. Comic Doom, there are 3 central traits of Doom in general:

1)His genius

2)His lust for power

3)His hatred of Richards

[quote]1)The genius--Look at the space station, look at the freezing apparatus he designs for Richards, the various gadgets, plus in the movie, both Doom and Richards go to MIT so yes they are keeping his genius in tact.

Not at all. There's nothing to indicate that Doom himself designed and built all of these things. He's merely shown to own them.

2)Lust for power--Well nothing says power like "I've always wanted power, now I have an unlimited supply...ha ha ha ha ha" and "Victor, you always thought you were a god." Doom wants power...simple as that and next on the list...Latveria

In the movie his lust impotent. He doesn't seek to achieve that power until the means is given to him accidently.

In the comics, Doom pursues his goals of power with complete abandon. And most importantly- he does this of his own power. He doesn't need an accident to grant him abilties. He makes it happen.

3)His hatred of Richards...does this really need to be elaborated ? Trust me...it is there.

Nope. Two big problems in this department.

In the comics, Doom's hatred is built up over a period of many years. It ferments into an obsession, thus we can understand why his hatred of Richards is so complete and endless.

And- most importantly- In the comics, his hatred of Richards is wrong.
Doom's great character flaw is that he can't accept he has flaws. He's the true cause of his scarring- but he can't accept it, and has to find someone to blame. So of course it must be his bitter intellectual rival. so this character flaw makes it understandable that Doom would engage in the maniacal acts he does.

In the movie, Doom actually has a very good reason to hate Reed. Reed F-ed up and put everyone in danger because of his poor calculations regarding the shielding and movement of the cosmic cloud. In this instance, if I were Doom, I'd want to kick his ass too.

[Sardaukar]

In the movie, Doom actually has a very good reason to hate Reed. Reed F-ed up and put everyone in danger because of his poor calculations regarding the shielding and movement of the cosmic cloud. In this instance, if I were Doom, I'd want to kick his ass too.


:D

That's good.

[RedIsNotBlue]

:D

That's good.

Yeah but is he saying that is a flaw?

[Joe Rockhead]

In the movie, Doom actually has a very good reason to hate Reed. Reed F-ed up and put everyone in danger because of his poor calculations regarding the shielding and movement of the cosmic cloud. In this instance, if I were Doom, I'd want to kick his ass too.

As the owner of the space station, shouldn't it be Doom's responsibility to ensure there's adequate shielding?

A point of contention between Reed and Doom would be "Reed said the cosmic storm wouldn't be strong enough to penetrate the station", and "Doom said the station's shielding would be strong enough to withstand the cosmic storm".

Reed assures Ben it should be okay, so Ben could blame Reed for his condition... but Doom has no one to blame but himself.

[RedIsNotBlue]

How did Doom gain all of his fame, money, and power? Dumb luck? Your telling me it didn't take any genius or brain power to get to where he is in the movie??

[Dragon]

As the owner of the space station, shouldn't it be Doom's responsibility to ensure there's adequate shielding?

A point of contention between Reed and Doom would be "Reed said the cosmic storm wouldn't be strong enough to penetrate the station", and "Doom said the station's shielding would be strong enough to withstand the cosmic storm".

Reed assures Ben it should be okay, so Ben could blame Reed for his condition... but Doom has no one to blame but himself.

No. Reed makes all of the calculations which the team are counting on to be correct. Since it's Reed's project Doom is counting on Reed to be correct.

[Dragon]

How did Doom gain all of his fame, money, and power? Dumb luck? Your telling me it didn't take any genius or brain power to get to where he is in the movie??

Apparently, he's a financial wizard. But Doom is supposed to be a scientific genius on par with Reed, which isn't shown. Donald Trump is no Dr. Doom.

But you know what? I'm beginning to see why all of the villains in the Marvel movies are rich guys. It's a metaphor for the real villain behind all of Marvel's movies. Avi Arad.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Apparently, he's a financial wizard. But Doom is supposed to be a scientific genius on par with Reed, which isn't shown. Donald Trump is no Dr. Doom.

But you know what? I'm beginning to see why all of the villains in the Marvel movies are rich guys. It's a metaphor for the real villain behind all of Marvel's movies. Avi Arad.

You cannot admit can you? How does Doctor Doom get into the same college as Reed? With money? No. He earns a scholarship USING HIS INTELLIGENCE. Doom does not grow up rich like Trump did, buddy.

[Dark Phantom]

Think of it this way: If the origin used in this movie was originally used in the comics, would you have any problem with it? Why can't origins be changed around? Some people may not like this origin, but there are others who are satisfied like me.

This my whole point on people saying, "It should be faithful to the comics". Not everyone can be satisfied one way or another. No one is going to get there way on how a polt should go. Still, the essence of Doctor Doom is still there. They haven't changed him into a maniacal nutcase like the Joker. The origin is the only major thing that has been changed. Plus, I really can't stand this nit-picking of every little thing you see wrong.

Dragon, you did make some good points. But when some good factors where placed in front of you, you had to dislike them because it's not what you wanted as an origin.

[GoblinScrier]

This was in the novelization so I am not sure if it will be in the movie, but right when they are getting ready to go into space and they are having the press conference, Victor says, "We are on the threshold...look how far a little boy from Latveria has come..." thus assuming humble beginnings to the greatness that he has become. It took intelligence to start his company, since both Reed and Victor graduated (in the movie anyway) from MIT.

It will take genius for him to conquer Latveria, etc.

It may be far from the comic version, but in the end, this Doom will definitely be faithful enough to satisfy the comic fans.

[wetgorilla]

You cannot admit can you? How does Doctor Doom get into the same college as Reed? With money? No. He earns a scholarship USING HIS INTELLIGENCE. Doom does not grow up rich like Trump did, buddy.

You're playing connect the dots in an attempt to reach a conclusion that isn't even at the end of of that pok-a-dot trail! Attending MIT doesn't mean an individual is on a level of intelligence with the comic Doom. So, if you're trying to justify and build a foundation based on that - try again! There are thousands who have attended and graduated from MIT, CalTech and various other universities - No biggie!

I have two friends who are graduates from MIT and CalTech, other than being very sharp guys, they're in no way prepared to design a time-machine or develop an army of Doombots! They're not even on the same level with Doom on his most uninspired of days!

Character development, during a movie, is based on information presented to the audience via actions or dialog - not conjectures made from a college he may have attended. Having invented something would definately outweigh any college attendance. What is shown to the audience is Doom needing to go to another scientist for an opinion as to what is happing to him!

I think you're reaching for a justification. Just embrace the fact that the production team screwed up! Life will be easier!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
Oh, and enjoy the movie!

[RedIsNotBlue]

You're playing connect the dots in an attempt to reach a conclusion that isn't even at the end of of that pok-a-dot trail! Attending MIT doesn't mean an individual is on a level of intelligence with the comic Doom. So, if you're trying to justify and build a foundation based on that - try again! There are thousands who have attended and graduated from MIT, CalTech and various other universities - No biggie!

I have two friends who are graduates from MIT and CalTech, other than being very sharp guys, they're in no way prepared to design a time-machine or develop an army of Doombots! They're not even on the same level with Doom on his most uninspired of days!

Character development, during a movie, is based on information presented to the audience via actions or dialog - not conjectures made from a college he may have attended. Having invented something would definately outweigh any college attendance. What is shown to the audience is Doom needing to go to another scientist for an opinion as to what is happing to him!

I think you're reaching for a justification. Just embrace the fact that the production team screwed up! Life will be easier!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine
Oh, and enjoy the movie!


Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight! :)

[ShadowBoxing]

Sure, these things may be there, but how well are they done?

For instance, I'm not a big fan of the Hulk movie.

The Hulk in that movie seems follow all the criteria...

1. He's big, strong, indescructible, etc.

2. He gets more powerful the madder he gets.

3. He has a "weak", mild mannered alter ego.

But was the character in that film nearly as good in the movie as he is in the comics?

Not in my opinion.

Bad analogy, the character Hulk was executed very well in that movie. The addressed his physcological and physical (madder he got stronger he got) issues very well, however the movies downfall was it had a weak third act and was anticlimatic.

So the Hulk was practically a mirror image of comic Hulk, however he existed in a poorly planned out plot

[Joe Rockhead]

I'm just curious. If Doom isn't portrayed as a genius level intellect on a par with Reed, where does the rivalry come into play?

If Doom is strictly a financial wizard, than he couldn't possibly compare his financial knowledge with Reed's scientific knowledge, could he?

And on the trip, is Doom strictly a financial backer, or is he a scientific backer? If he's strictly financial, he'd have no business going into space on a scientific mission. He has to bring some scientific expertise with him, doesn't he?

No, I guess he's just a glorified Donald Trump, that must be it. It would take a real leap of faith to believe he understands quantum physics.
:rolleyes:

[ShadowBoxing]

Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight! :)

I agree sending him to Reed's college seems to make the suggestion that Doom is just as smart

However the dumbing down probably comes off because Doom does not make a giant suit of armor for himself.

[wetgorilla]

I never said Saint didn't give his opinion. I just said everything I have seen him type about Doom has seemed purely negative and I don't feel the same as him. With Lightning he is a highly respected poster and the things I have read from him seem level headed and not too positive and not too negative. I would go with his opinion over Saint's on anything. Open minded to me means the person looks at it from both sides of the spectrum and can accept something different. So I say again...Saint can have his opinion...I just don't agree with it.

I never said Saint gave his opinion....I said he stated his position and stated reasons from which he based his conclusions. Conclusions by definition are based on a form of reasoning. Not, on feelings or ungrounded opinions.


Facts? When did facts come into play? This whole thread has been basically nothing but feelings and opinions. Bingo!


There are plenty of facts concerning this movie being debated here. Opinions are what shouldn't be debated unless they're stated as a conclusion based on sound reasoning. People should be ready to defend such statements.
Fact 1 - Doom needs to consult another scientist concerning his condition(Something the real Doom whould never have done).
Fact 2 - Doom blames Richards for screwing up on his calculations regarding the Cosmic Cloud (which is true and thus he is somewhat justified in being pissed).
Fact 3 - Doom is given an origin nowhere near the real origin and that origin is in no way capable of producing characteristics on the same level as those belonging to the real Doom.
Fact 4 - He is a mutant gone mad. Before running through the cosmic cloud he was an accepted and respected citizen of society (the movie has him going on a rampage). This is not how the comic Doom is portrayed.
Fact 5 - The writer plucked a love-triangle/relationship from HollowMan starring Kevin Bacon and dressed it up for this movie. Sickening!

There are many more 'facts' but, I'm going to leave the list with the five given.


Nope but he dedicated an entire thread on a script review of the characters. So your telling me I should go with someone who is basing his opinion on a novel that has been released long before the movie? Sorry for agreeing with someone who has a better knowledge of the film. :)

I read LightninStrike's review and I can state without a doubt it contained much less facts than the review given by Saint. Saint had much more reasoning behind his conclusions. From what Saint has claimed, he read the novel as well as the Frost script (which is almost identical with the novel). Now, I haven't read the novel (and have no plans to do so) but, I'm willing to wager it will match the script that was shown to me.

How is L.S. suppose to have more knowledge than Saint concerning this moving?? I don't understand what you're basing this on other than a 'feeling' derived from L.S.'s review.

Most of those individuals who would favor his review over that by Saint would be for the same reason you've stated earlier. 'Positive' and 'Negative' - two over used and self-coined terms!

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[Dragon]

I'm just curious. If Doom isn't portrayed as a genius level intellect on a par with Reed, where does the rivalry come into play?

Exactly. It doesn't. They rely on tied cliches like Doom's romantic (or sexual) desire for Sue, Doom using his wealth to rub Reed's nose in it and finally Doom's hatred of Reed for Doom's mutation. CHEESE.

If Doom is strictly a financial wizard, than he couldn't possibly compare his financial knowledge with Reed's scientific knowledge, could he?

No he can't. So you see our problem.

And on the trip, is Doom strictly a financial backer, or is he a scientific backer? If he's strictly financial, he'd have no business going into space on a scientific mission. He has to bring some scientific expertise with him, doesn't he?

Again, exactly. And no he doesn't make use of his scientific expretise on the mission. You've pointed out further weaknesses in the script.

No, I guess he's just a glorified Donald Trump, that must be it. It would take a real leap of faith to believe he understands quantum physics.
:rolleyes:

Pretty much, since we don't see it. ;)

[wetgorilla]

Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight! :)

You're not reading. I'm saying :up: :down GETTING INTO MIT :up: :down doesn't constitute genius. Period. It's not that impressive once an individual is out in the real world of business and life. Also, what an audience learns about a character during a movie is by what is shown in action or dialog - NOT conjecture (what you are doing with this MIT thing). Stop it.

If you'd have read anything I've posted in the far past of these threads....I'm not bothered by not remaining 100% pure to the source material. But rather, whether or not a production team dismantles character motivations and character relationships during an adaptation! This is different than demanding a comic movie be 100% identical to the source material.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

The only thing that really bothers me is the love triangle they added between Victor, Reed, and Sue. I am with you on that...I feel it was uneccessary and studio added garbage. Hopefully it will be toned down from what I have heard. But everything else is great IMO. I just like it better than how I think the comic origin would have played out on screen. You and others seem to just hate it because it is unfaithful. I am able to accept that things can be changed for the better and because it written in the comics doesn't make it the best thing possible.

As for your facts I see no problems with 1 through 3. Four I can understand why you can be upset. Making Doom a man who becomes a mutant. I can accept it. I think it makes a great base and better timing from where Doom takes off into becoming a more faithful version of the comic Doom. Yeah...let me make that clear. I have no problems with the comic Doom I just think his origin on screen would be silly. But I am sick of saying that.

And let's just leave it at that. This endless bickering is pointless. I like the movie Doom and I feel he is faithful enough for this movie and will be even more faithful in the next one. And you think they screwed up. Can we just leave it at that?

[wetgorilla]

The only thing that really bothers me is the love triangle they added between Victor, Reed, and Sue. I am with you on that...I feel it was uneccessary and studio added garbage. Hopefully it will be toned down from what I have heard. But everything else is great IMO. I just like it better than how I think the comic origin would have played out on screen. You and others seem to just hate it because it is unfaithful. I am able to accept that things can be changed for the better and because it written in the comics doesn't make it the best thing possible.

As for your facts I see no problems with 1 through 3. Four I can understand why you can be upset. Making Doom a man who becomes a mutant. I can accept it. I think it makes a great base and better timing from where Doom takes off into becoming a more faithful version of the comic Doom. Yeah...let me make that clear. I have no problems with the comic Doom I just think his origin on screen would be silly. But I am sick of saying that.

And let's just leave it at that. This endless bickering is pointless. I like the movie Doom and I feel he is faithful enough for this movie and will be even more faithful in the next one. And you think they screwed up. Can we just leave it at that?

I understand where you're coming from. In fact, I have a brother who is more aligned with your take on this production than my own. So, it's understandable that we all have slightly different accepted criteria and positions concerning this movie. Thanks for the excellent discourse you have created with your excellent posts! :)

Wetgorilla

[wetgorilla]

Regardless of what changes have been made or what aspects have been preserved, I think we'll all enjoy a day at the movies this July 8th!


Wetgorilla

[RedIsNotBlue]

I understand where you're coming from. In fact, I have a brother who is more aligned with your take on this production than my own. So, it's understandable that we all have slightly different accepted criteria and positions concerning this movie. Thanks for the excellent discourse you have created with your excellent posts! :)

Wetgorilla

And I just want to make it clear I started this thread to state my opinion and feelings on this subject and to find out how others felt. I never intended to piss others off or to try to change someone elses view.

[wetgorilla]

And I just want to make it clear I started this thread to state my opinion and feelings on this subject and to find out how others felt. I never intended to piss others off or to try to change someone elses view.

But, that's how these forums develop regardless, RINB. By definition, a forum must have two or more opposing viewpoints and it's through debate any real ideas are developed among ourselves. If a thread had just one viewpoint it would, be a nothing more than a self-congradulating group without any substance at all.

So, I think you've succeeded with your thread, RINB. Congradulations!

:up:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

[RedIsNotBlue]

But, that's how these forums develop regardless, RINB. By definition, a forum must have two or more opposing viewpoints and it's through debate any real ideas are developed among ourselves. If a thread had just one viewpoint it would, be a nothing more than a self-congradulating group without any substance at all.

So, I think you've succeeded with your thread, RINB. Congradulations!

:up:

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

I knew people were gonna oppose my views and I knew some would be pissed. But I am just saying I didn't have this intention. I like to discuss things in a civilized manner but unfortuantely it is rare that happens on here.

[ShadowBoxing]

You're not reading. I'm saying :up: :down GETTING INTO MIT :up: :down doesn't constitute genius. Period. It's not that impressive once an individual is out in the real world of business and life. Also, what an audience learns about a character during a movie is by what is shown in action or dialog - NOT conjecture (what you are doing with this MIT thing). Stop it.

If you'd have read anything I've posted in the far past of these threads....I'm not bothered by not remaining 100% pure to the source material. But rather, whether or not a production team dismantles character motivations and character relationships during an adaptation! This is different than demanding a comic movie be 100% identical to the source material.

Wetgorilla
:wolverine

This is true.

Socrates once said if you don't do the good you don't know the good

good as being substitute for anything really. In this case we have a character Doom, who supposedly goes to MIT but doesn't show any qualities of being a genius. It doesn't matter what history you set up for a character, what matters is how the character is portrayed.

In this case they have dumbed down Doom. This is wrong. The comic states Doom is Richards equal, or [perhaps] even more brillant. The reason this is important is that whereas Doom is a genius like Reed, he has an over abundance of pride, which often leads to his downfall, the same pride that made him Doom. This pride makes him shoot beyond his means, and this is where Reed and the FF come in and foil his plot.

[RedIsNotBlue]

This is true.

Socrates once said if you don't do the good you don't know the good

good as being substitute for anything really. In this case we have a character Doom, who supposedly goes to MIT but doesn't show any qualities of being a genius. It doesn't matter what history you set up for a character, what matters is how the character is portrayed.

In this case they have dumbed down Doom. This is wrong. The comic states Doom is Richards equal, or [perhaps] even more brillant. The reason this is important is that whereas Doom is a genius like Reed, he has an over abundance of pride, which often leads to his downfall, the same pride that made him Doom. This pride makes him shoot beyond his means, and this is where Reed and the FF come in and foil his plot.

How many scholarships does MIT give out?

[ShadowBoxing]

How many scholarships does MIT give out?

I can't imagine they give out many. To even apply you need a 550 or higher in math on the SATs.

however that is irrelevant. If they want to make him out to be a genius, he needs to act like one, its doesn't matter how they set up his past

[RedIsNotBlue]

I can't imagine they give out many. To even apply you need a 550 or higher in math on the SATs.

however that is irrelevant. If they want to make him out to be a genius, he needs to act like one, its doesn't matter how they set up his past

How is that irrelevant? In the comics he gets a scholarship from his intelligence and it seems to be that way in the movie. Just because he doesn't act as dorky as Reed doesn't make him dumb. Well whatever I am tired of trying bring things to attention.

[Grimm]

Personally...I think things could have been handled just as well with the comic origin. Instead of Reed getting Doom to fund the project, Nasa (or whatever) would fund it. Victor would still be from Latveria, but (like in the comics) he was given an opportunity to learn at MIT with Reed. They've had years of tension between the two, and now that Reed is getting his big chance, Victor "visits" to wish him luck...and sabatoge the mission. After they return to earth with their powers, Doom gets his armor and the rest of the movie could play out like it's already going to. *shrug*...I don't mind his mutation, I just think that more creativity should have been taken with expanding his origin for the film.