I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[Sardaukar]

Yes, folks, the great Khan said words like those in that subliminal Trek sequel. Khan was a man of great power and intelligence, yet he was wounded and wanted revenge...what a great character he was; I dare say he was the best villain Star Trek ever knew.

Doom could be like that. The backstory of the Master's beloved Latveria could effectively be incorporated into this film, even if the only time we actually see that fair country is at the very end of the movie!

1. In only a few (but gripping) moments throughout the film, Doom is disturbed and vulnerable (and we all know that Doom hates being vulnerable-it only adds to his rage and determination). He is continually plagued by nightmares and visions of a moment from when he was a child, a moment when his entire family was executed before his eyes. He feels ashamed that he, the rightful heir of Latveria, fled in fear while a usurper stole the throne.

Doom is also angry. You see, the usurper (let's respect canon and call him Vladimir) was actually backed and given weapons by the United States and other Western nations. But now Vladimir rules Latveria under an iron fist worse than that of the Von Doom's, but of course Vladimir is still an ally of the West as they continually overlook his crimes against humanity for political/economical reasons (just like China's control of Tibet).

This enrages Doom...and gives him enough of an excuse to really hate the world. That hate serves as proper motivation for him to avenge himself and his dead loved ones upon all the world.

I'd like to see a scene where Sue tries to understand why Victor is so angry and he explains to her his family's tragedy. Hell, if they really want Sue to connect intimately with Victor and make us understand the guy, that's a fine moment to do it in! Then, to back that up, maybe Doom's claim to the Latverian throne could be quickly alluded to by a fast news clip or something.

2. Skip to the climax of the film:

The FF defeat Doom and his charred corpse is laying before them. But, guess what, when the authorities arrive to examine the body, they discover that it's a robot (or a dummy, whatever suits your taste)! Doom has escaped; he is still out there somewhere...

3. Skip to the very end of the film:

6 months later...

Sitting on this throne, King Vladimir is cowering in mortal terror. An invincible enemy has broken through his palace's defenses. A doorway blasts open. The king watches in horror as a dark, cloaked figure approaches him.

You know the rest...

No what kind of setup is that for a sequel?

[snazzy J]

I love most of what you said, but I'm not sure about your ending. The rest of it, though, wow. Did you steal that from me or something because I posted something similar, though less in-depth before. You just fleshed it out into exactly what I was trying to say. I guess great minds do think alike. ;)

[darth_coolius]

yeah that was pretty cool

[Isildur´s Heir]

Great job Sardaukar, great job indeed :up:
That Doom is way better than the one i read in the Mark Frost´s script ;)

[Lightning Strykez!]

Fantastic concept!

[ritually shorn]

that is definately what they need to do in this film. Unfortunately the people invovled with it at this point do not have enough talent to pull it off. Oh well, another sub par movie for marvel coming up.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Give Victor an armor instead of organic skin (for us to have a great Doom rendition), and your idea, Sardaukar, could be easily incorporated in the Frost's script. Easily.

Doesn't Fox force these writers to read comic books before writing their script ? Why didn't Frost read Doom comics ? And if he did, why did he respect the FF and NOT Doom ?? Was it for the sake of messing with us ??? For insulting 40 years of comic book history ??

Fox and Arad most definitely have a vendetta against us Doom fans, no doubt about it. :mad:

[Sardaukar]

Thanks for the kind comments, folks.

I'm definitely no writer. It's just that people like us have read so many great FF stories by so many great writers that it becomes easy for us to imagine the possibilities... :)

BTW, in my plot the purpose of the FF's mission would be to repair/build some research satellite surrounding the earth. Doom would go with them to install his own "secret weapon" (which he would be able to get away with since he and Reed own the damn company doing it).

The FF are bombarded by cosmic rays, so Reed doesn't have time to find out Doom's plans. In the accident, Doom becomes burned and blames Reed for it (for whatever reason). I have this cool vision of a scene where Reed goes to the hospital to visit Victor who's wrapped up in bandages all over his face and body. Reed tries to talk to him, but all Doom does is stare at him-all you can see are Doom's eyes but they're so filled with hate that it's truly scary.

6 or so months later, Doom uses the weapon to threaten the UN into getting rid of Vladimir and giving financial/food aid to Latveria.

The UN refuses to give in to his terrorism and the FF are sent in.

I dunno, maybe the plot sounds like something from Austin Powers, but so sue me. :rolleyes:

[snazzy J]

Thanks for the kind comments, folks.

I'm definitely no writer. It's just that people like us have read so many great FF stories by so many great writers that it becomes easy for us to imagine the possibilities... :)

BTW, in my plot the purpose of the FF's mission would be to repair/build some research satellite surrounding the earth. Doom would go with them to install his own "secret weapon" (which he would be able to get away with since he and Reed own the damn company doing it).

The FF are bombarded by cosmic rays, so Reed doesn't have time to find out Doom's plans. In the accident, Doom becomes burned and blames Reed for it (for whatever reason). I have this cool vision of a scene where Reed goes to the hospital to visit Victor who's wrapped up in bandages all over his face and body. Reed tries to talk to him, but all Doom does is stare at him-all you can see are Doom's eyes but they're so filled with hate that it's truly scary.

6 or so months later, Doom uses the weapon to threaten the UN into getting rid of Vladimir and giving financial/food aid to Latveria.

The UN refuses to give in to his terrorism and the FF are sent in.

I dunno, maybe the plot sounds like something from Austin Powers, but so sue me. :rolleyes:
That's not bad. Not bad at all. If they set it up like that was Doom's plan all along and the others were only there as a front so nobody would suspect anything, it could work pretty well. I don't think having Doom's whereabouts be known after the accident would be good, or at least not in my opinion.

[snazzy J]

Okay, here's a plot outline a worked out just now combining the Frost script, the new script, and Sardaukar's idea:

Doom has been planning for years to take back Latveria and he is finally ready to do it, using his company's resources. To accomplish this, he's going to install a weapon on his pre-existing space station [This part does sound cheesy, but it explains why the launch occurs so quickly and why Doom comes along. If anybody comes up with a less-corny explanation, feel free to share it] and use it to take Latveria by force. The only problem is he needs an excuse to be up there so that no one will suspect anything. Enter Reed with his research mission, and Ben as his pilot. Doom has a history with the two, but realizes this is exactly what he needs for his plan, so they go ahead with the mission, along with Sue and Johnny. The accident occurs ala the Frost drift, except with Doom leaving in the escape pod like in the new script. The only difference is, instead of organic armor, he has been scarred, though we never actually see the scars. When he lands, he covertly returns to his company (Not on a stolen motorcycle!), leaving everyone to believe he has gone missing (or maybe the pod crashes and they think he's dead). He dons his armor, which he had already created to protect himself in his annexation of Latveria, forges his mask to hide his face, and decides to proceed with his plan, albeit with a newfound hatred of Reed, who he blames the accident on (though his scarring is actually his own fault). This all occurs in complete secrecy, no one being aware of his endeavors aside from a handful of scientists/engineers that he murders later on. Meanwhile, all the stuff from Frost's draft with the Four happens, setting up all their characters. Finally, in the third act, Doom carries out his plan and it is up to the Four to stop him. The ending I'm not so sure about, but I think it could involve Doom being defeated, but still getting away. Then, at the very end after Reed proposes to Sue, Doom could be shown something like "Commence preparations for Plan B, " or something, but less cheesy. Thoughts?

[homestarrunner]

thats the hotness....oh by the way im new so uh hey everyone

[snazzy J]

On Doom's character in general, a few things are a must. In addition to this:In only a few (but gripping) moments throughout the film, Doom is disturbed and vulnerable (and we all know that Doom hates being vulnerable-it only adds to his rage and determination). He is continually plagued by nightmares and visions of a moment from when he was a child, a moment when his entire family was executed before his eyes. He feels ashamed that he, the rightful heir of Latveria, fled in fear while a usurper stole the throne.

Doom is also angry. You see, the usurper (let's respect canon and call him Vladimir) was actually backed and given weapons by the United States and other Western nations. But now Vladimir rules Latveria under an iron fist worse than that of the Von Doom's, but of course Vladimir is still an ally of the West as they continually overlook his crimes against humanity for political/economical reasons (just like China's control of Tibet).

This enrages Doom...and gives him enough of an excuse to really hate the world. That hate serves as proper motivation for him to avenge himself and his dead loved ones upon all the world.

I'd like to see a scene where Sue tries to understand why Victor is so angry and he explains to her his family's tragedy. Hell, if they really want Sue to connect intimately with Victor and make us understand the guy, that's a fine moment to do it in! he should also:

- be a brilliant scientist-turned-businessman, not eurotrash-turned-businessman
- have come to America no earlier than his late teens
- have spent his time between the murder of his family and his arrival in America living in exile with the gypsies of Latveria, and his experiences in black magic could be hinted at
- have a pre-existing relationship with Reed and Ben (disliking them, but not all out hatred yet)
- have forged his company from the ground up through his own hard work and genius alone
- definitely not be going out with Sue
- be scarred and have artificial armor, not organic
- be primarily concerned with Latveria, not the Four (it won't make sense if he all of a sudden takes over Latveria in a sequel if he never cared that much about it in the first place)
- just act like Doom should: cold, vain, willing to do whatever it takes, but also with his own sense of honor, distorted as it may be

If they would do all that, I think it could definitely do Doom justice.




EDIT: Added another one.

[Isildur´s Heir]

I like your description of Doom´s background Sardaukar, i like it very much (like i already said in my previous post).
But i´m not to keen on the all, Doom would go with them to install his own "secret weapon" thing :o

[snazzy J]

I like your description of Doom´s background Sardaukar, i like it very much (like i already said in my previous post).
But i´m not to keen on the all, Doom would go with them to install his own "secret weapon" thing :oI'm still unsure about that myself, honestly. It does do a good job of explaining why the launch happens so quickly, why Doom comes along, and working Latveria into the mix, but it certainly is awfully cheesy. But it's never gonna happen anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter.

[snazzy J]

Also, from the sounds of it, there's no actual reason for them to be fighting Doom. Everything so far leads me to believe they're only fighting because Doom is a whiny sissy and wants to get back at them. At least with the satellite laser or whatever they actually have a reason to fight him.

[Isildur´s Heir]

In the Mark Frost´s script, Doom as already a lauch schedule and a pilot ready (Johnny) before Reed´s tells him about the idea of going into space to study the cosmic rays.
It´s all too convinient to the point of being weird...

Now, imagine this...
What if Doom already knew about the cosmic rays and their mutagenic properties?
What if it wasn´t Reed to go up to Doom, but the other way around?
What if Doom wanted to use Reed, Ben and Johnny as guinea pigs and Susan was pure bad luck and timing?
Do you think that Doom would mind if a woman was affected too, would he lose any sleep because of that?
Isn´t that the kind of things that Doom does to acchieve ultimate power?
The thing is, he wasn´t expecting that kind of side effects (powers)....
This way, you have a reason for them to fight Doom and to Victor be much more menacing and more Doom like...

[Paradoxium]

Curious fellow, first you say the Conroy dub over Bale thing, than you post that Blame George Lucas thing, than that wierd Jor-El/Lara script - now this - out of the blue :D

[Sardaukar]

Curious fellow, first you say the Conroy dub over Bale thing, than you post that Blame George Lucas thing, than that wierd Jor-El/Lara script - now this - out of the blue :D

What can I say, I'm a man of many talents. ;)

And hey, I think somebody deleted my Supes script!

I wonder why. ;)

Anyways, folks (and great ideas snazzy J and Isildur's Heir :) ).

I've been thinking that the "secret weapon" could be...

1. Like that orbital laser cannon from Akira which (unfortunately) was also used in that beyond lame Bond flick, just recently.

2. A launching platform for deadly microbes to poison the earth's atmosphere. Has that been done before?

3. Just some nukes. Not very original...but very effective.

[snazzy J]

Bump.

[dk]

I've said this before, I'll say it again: FF succeeds or fails as a film on the strength of Doom. He's not a mere run-of-the-mill comic book villain - to consider him such is to completely underestimate the character. Doom is far more complex than that. He's no less than the greatest villain in comics, period. He should be a screen villain to rival Darth Vader, Dracula, Hannibal Lecter, etc.

Falling short of that mark is failure, IMO.

[GoblinScrier]

I've said this before, I'll say it again: FF succeeds or fails as a film on the strength of Doom. He's not a mere run-of-the-mill comic book villain - to consider him such is to completely underestimate the character. Doom is far more complex than that. He's no less than the greatest villain in comics, period. He should be a screen villain to rival Darth Vader, Dracula, Hannibal Lecter, etc.

Falling short of that mark is failure, IMO.

Bravo, DK ! I've said this a thousand times too and much like a lot of us, we are Doom purists and can accept SOME changes, not changes to the point where we don't recognize him at all !

I am soooooooooo tired of hearing people like Rizpower tell us that we are fanboys and can't accept change, wait until more evidence comes out, etc. If we had been getting some sort of positive feedback, then maybe I would. Even if EVERY facet of what has been said about Doom was false, then I would eat my own words and take back any negativity. However, considering NOTHING but negativity has been announced about how the character or lack thereof for Doom would be potrayed, then it is my conclusion that until more interviews with McMahon, pictures of the "organic" piece of crap that he will call an armor or if there is a sane person in Hollywood or Marvel, he will get his NORMAL I-built-it-myself armor, then I will continue to speak my mind and I hope others will as well as how the greatest villain in comicdom and probably other media outlets is going to have a p*** poor adaptation.

LONG LIVE THE TRUE MONARCH OF CASTLE DOOM, LATVERIA IN EUROPE (NOT I LIVE IN A CASTLE IN NY ON TOP OF MY BIG FANCY BUSINESS).

I can see it now: if this movie succeeds and Doom is a corporate businessman/scientist, Doom will get his own talk show in the sequel and it will be called the Lackey ! He will play the Donald Trump character and he will try to find someone to be his lackey: at the end of the day, he will find a lackey and if he doesn't do what Doom wants, he will use his new found lightning powers (SHUDDERS at the thought of super powers for Doom) but if he does well, he will give him a brand new motorcycle, since he is so GOOD at stealing bikes ! :doom: :rolleyes:

[dk]

Bravo, DK ! I've said this a thousand times too and much like a lot of us, we are Doom purists and can accept SOME changes, not changes to the point where we don't recognize him at all !

I'll go as far as to put it this way: even if Marvel and Fox absolutely nail the FF themselves - and indications look like they may be pretty close - if they don't nail Doom with the same level of authenticity to the comics, the movie fails. The movie FAILS - flat-out.

Why? Because Doom is more important than the heroes in this case. Again, think Darth Vader, Dracula, Hannibal Lecter, Khan, etc. Sure, an audience may LIKE the heroes in those movies, they may identify with them, but it's the villain who really leaves the lasting impression. That's Doom. That's what Doom should be.

You've heard the saying, "A hero is defined by the villain they face"? That's never been truer than in the case of the FF and Dr. Doom. They HAVE to get Doom's character 90-100% right - all the nuances, all the complexities. I can't stress how key this is. If he's one-note...if he lacks the depth of character and motivation of his comic counterpart, it's disaster. Just the fact that Marvel and Fox spent so much time and effort trying to over-think and over-reinvent Doom troubles me, frankly. If it had been me, I would have come at it from the other direction - lift Doom as-is from the comics, and reinvent the FF to fit into HIS world. It would have been a much smarter approach, IMO.

[Herr Logan]

Yes, folks, the great Khan said words like those in that subliminal Trek sequel. Khan was a man of great power and intelligence, yet he was wounded and wanted revenge...what a great character he was; I dare say he was the best villain Star Trek ever knew.

Doom could be like that. The backstory of the Master's beloved Latveria could effectively be incorporated into this film, even if the only time we actually see that fair country is at the very end of the movie!

1. In only a few (but gripping) moments throughout the film, Doom is disturbed and vulnerable (and we all know that Doom hates being vulnerable-it only adds to his rage and determination). He is continually plagued by nightmares and visions of a moment from when he was a child, a moment when his entire family was executed before his eyes. He feels ashamed that he, the rightful heir of Latveria, fled in fear while a usurper stole the throne.

Doom is also angry. You see, the usurper (let's respect canon and call him Vladimir) was actually backed and given weapons by the United States and other Western nations. But now Vladimir rules Latveria under an iron fist worse than that of the Von Doom's, but of course Vladimir is still an ally of the West as they continually overlook his crimes against humanity for political/economical reasons (just like China's control of Tibet).

This enrages Doom...and gives him enough of an excuse to really hate the world. That hate serves as proper motivation for him to avenge himself and his dead loved ones upon all the world.

I'd like to see a scene where Sue tries to understand why Victor is so angry and he explains to her his family's tragedy. Hell, if they really want Sue to connect intimately with Victor and make us understand the guy, that's a fine moment to do it in! Then, to back that up, maybe Doom's claim to the Latverian throne could be quickly alluded to by a fast news clip or something.

2. Skip to the climax of the film:

The FF defeat Doom and his charred corpse is laying before them. But, guess what, when the authorities arrive to examine the body, they discover that it's a robot (or a dummy, whatever suits your taste)! Doom has escaped; he is still out there somewhere...

3. Skip to the very end of the film:

6 months later...

Sitting on this throne, King Vladimir is cowering in mortal terror. An invincible enemy has broken through his palace's defenses. A doorway blasts open. The king watches in horror as a dark, cloaked figure approaches him.

You know the rest...

No what kind of setup is that for a sequel?


God damn, Sardaukar...

This has shattered my expectations in the most exquisite way possible. This right here, this is the stuff. Much respect to you. :doom: :up:

[snazzy J]

Okay, here's a plot outline a worked out just now combining the Frost script, the new script, and Sardaukar's idea:

Doom has been planning for years to take back Latveria and he is finally ready to do it, using his company's resources. To accomplish this, he's going to install a weapon on his pre-existing space station [This part does sound cheesy, but it explains why the launch occurs so quickly and why Doom comes along. If anybody comes up with a less-corny explanation, feel free to share it] and use it to take Latveria by force. The only problem is he needs an excuse to be up there so that no one will suspect anything. Enter Reed with his research mission, and Ben as his pilot. Doom has a history with the two, but realizes this is exactly what he needs for his plan, so they go ahead with the mission, along with Sue and Johnny. The accident occurs ala the Frost drift, except with Doom leaving in the escape pod like in the new script. The only difference is, instead of organic armor, he has been scarred, though we never actually see the scars. When he lands, he covertly returns to his company (Not on a stolen motorcycle!), leaving everyone to believe he has gone missing (or maybe the pod crashes and they think he's dead). He dons his armor, which he had already created to protect himself in his annexation of Latveria, forges his mask to hide his face, and decides to proceed with his plan, albeit with a newfound hatred of Reed, who he blames the accident on (though his scarring is actually his own fault). This all occurs in complete secrecy, no one being aware of his endeavors aside from a handful of scientists/engineers that he murders later on. Meanwhile, all the stuff from Frost's draft with the Four happens, setting up all their characters. Finally, in the third act, Doom carries out his plan and it is up to the Four to stop him. The ending I'm not so sure about, but I think it could involve Doom being defeated, but still getting away. Then, at the very end after Reed proposes to Sue, Doom could be shown something like "Commence preparations for Plan B, " or something, but less cheesy. Thoughts?
I know this idea was far from great, but I think it was at least good enough to deserve some feedback. Come on, people!

[snazzy J]

Nobody, eh? I guess Thing threads are the new Doom threads.

[darth_coolius]

if doom went up in the station to install a weapon, then i'd have reed find out and try to stop him, and their confrontation causes a malfunction or something.

[Senshi]

Well this might sound really horrible but you guys asked for an alternative to installing a weapon on the space station so here it goes... What if Doom knew about the "cosmic rays"? Maybe it could be his mission to go in to space and try and collect the comic energy and harness it so that he could create a new weapon of mass destruction. The cosmic energy could be 100 times more powerful than a nuclear blast and it would give Doom the edge he needed over the rest of the world in order to reclaim Latveria. While in space Doom begins to draw the cosmic energy towards the space shuttle in an attempt to collect it. Reed discovers Doom's plan and stops him. Doom uses an escape pod and gets away, But his tampering with the cosmic waves cause them to become unstable and tear through the shuttle. Doom watches from the escape pod as his rivals and his dream seem to die. When the Esacpe Pod comes back to earth there is a crash and Doom is horribly disfigured....
Well that's all I have to say.

[Senshi]

In the Mark Frost´s script, Doom as already a lauch schedule and a pilot ready (Johnny) before Reed´s tells him about the idea of going into space to study the cosmic rays.
It´s all too convinient to the point of being weird...

Now, imagine this...
What if Doom already knew about the cosmic rays and their mutagenic properties?
What if it wasn´t Reed to go up to Doom, but the other way around?
What if Doom wanted to use Reed, Ben and Johnny as guinea pigs and Susan was pure bad luck and timing?
Do you think that Doom would mind if a woman was affected too, would he lose any sleep because of that?
Isn´t that the kind of things that Doom does to acchieve ultimate power?
The thing is, he wasn´t expecting that kind of side effects (powers)....
This way, you have a reason for them to fight Doom and to Victor be much more menacing and more Doom like...

Ah I just read this after I posted!

[Zev]

Or what if Doom wanted to harness the cosmic rays and redirect them into Latveria. Suddenly, everyone there has powers. Powers enough to overthrow the outnumbered Communist ruling party (remember, going by the "Royal family massacred by commies, country renamed, Doom flees to America and names his new corporation Latveria to show that he's coming back" theory of mine). Then they will bow down and pay homage to their savior, DOOM, who will take over the world with his superpowered army! BWAHAHAHAHA!

That could be a great moment too, when everyone thinks it's some sort of death ray. Reed says "Your new weapon will never work, Doom!"

And Doom just turns to him and says with infinite arrogance. "Weapon? Who said ANYTHING about a MERE WEAPON?"

God, sometimes I'm so brilliant I scare myself!

[darth_coolius]

Or what if Doom wanted to harness the cosmic rays and redirect them into Latveria. Suddenly, everyone there has powers. Powers enough to overthrow the outnumbered Communist ruling party (remember, going by the "Royal family massacred by commies, country renamed, Doom flees to America and names his new corporation Latveria to show that he's coming back" theory of mine). Then they will bow down and pay homage to their savior, DOOM, who will take over the world with his superpowered army! BWAHAHAHAHA!

That could be a great moment too, when everyone thinks it's some sort of death ray. Reed says "Your new weapon will never work, Doom!"

And Doom just turns to him and says with infinite arrogance. "Weapon? Who said ANYTHING about a MERE WEAPON?"

God, sometimes I'm so brilliant I scare myself!

No thanks. I don't want this movie to be mocked on Mystery Science Theatre.

[snazzy J]

Or what if Doom wanted to harness the cosmic rays and redirect them into Latveria. Suddenly, everyone there has powers. Powers enough to overthrow the outnumbered Communist ruling party (remember, going by the "Royal family massacred by commies, country renamed, Doom flees to America and names his new corporation Latveria to show that he's coming back" theory of mine). Then they will bow down and pay homage to their savior, DOOM, who will take over the world with his superpowered army! BWAHAHAHAHA!

That could be a great moment too, when everyone thinks it's some sort of death ray. Reed says "Your new weapon will never work, Doom!"

And Doom just turns to him and says with infinite arrogance. "Weapon? Who said ANYTHING about a MERE WEAPON?"

God, sometimes I'm so brilliant I scare myself!That sounds an awful lot like Magneto's plan in X-Men.

[Zev]

Damn, all the best ideas are taken! Okay, what if he just channeled all the powers into himself to become some sort of 'Super-Doom' for a big-time ending confrontation? He's 'defeated' and loses his powers, but lives to fight another day.

[snazzy J]

Damn, all the best ideas are taken! Okay, what if he just channeled all the powers into himself to become some sort of 'Super-Doom' for a big-time ending confrontation? He's 'defeated' and loses his powers, but lives to fight another day.Okay, now you're not even trying.

[Herr Logan]

*wince*

Never thought I'd see the day I'd be liking Sardaukar's idea better than Zev's. Crazy, crazy world. Stuff has to start making sense again, soon, or I'm going to be upset. :o

[Zev]

*wince*

Never thought I'd see the day I'd be liking Sardaukar's idea better than Zev's. Crazy, crazy world. Stuff has to start making sense again, soon, or I'm going to be upset. :o

Hey, no one is more upset about it then me! Just give me a minute here... aha!

Okay, this is going to get a little crazy, but bear with me. There's a random fifth guy in the FF shuttle who's killed by his exposure to the cosmic rays. His body can't handle the powers he's trying to receive and shuts down. So, Doom plans to saturate the entire world with cosmic rays. Reed points out that statistically, one in five could be killed. Only the weak, Doom replies. "There is no room for the weak in my new world order..."

Okay, that's still a bit like X-Men. But darnit, I really like the "who said it was a weapon?" thing. One more sec...

Keep in mind that Doom's plan can't be something beneficial, but not work, because that's kinda like X-Men and Doom doesn't make mistakes. So it has to be something evil, but I don't want to do the death ray thing...

Okay, Doom plans to use the station like a magnifying glass to collect and point the cosmic rays at, let's say, New Guinea under the 'lets see what happens' doctrine. Reed says they don't know what will happen, the effect could be too large to contain, there could be untold damage.

"That," Doom sneers, "is why they call it an experiment."

Eh? Eh?

He could also try to make a larger scale version of the device he used to try and contact his parents in the afterlife, but that was done in Spider-Man 2.

Wait, I got it! Doom has planted a 'space capsule' with small amounts of biological material, air, H20, etc, on the moon. The building blocks of life. He plans to direct the cosmic rays at that area on the Moon and basically capture lightning in a bottle. He succeeds and creates a small oasis, a 'Blue Area of the Moon', if you will. Then he turns the station towards Earth for his own nefarious ends. People have become fat, complacent, stagnent. He's going to give evolution a kick. Reed says that exposure that focused will irradiate the Earth, rendering it sterile. Doom disagrees, but makes sure that he'll 'fire' on the opposite side of the Earth from Latveria. Just in case.

[Herr Logan]

Right now, the original comic book story is looking extremely good as a plot in a movie.

[Zev]

What, using a time machine to go back and steal Blackbeard's treasure?

How about... Doom tests the station laser (I know, I know) on the Moon. The area is slagged. Some parts are invisible (but revealed by lunar dust), others are on fire but don't turn to ash (like the American flag planted by Neil Armstrong, in a "get the audience angry at the villain" visual), others are carbonized into craggy rock, still others have stretched out like Dali watches. Doom plans to use the laser in precision strikes on power plants around the world. Every power plant that is harmful to the environment, in fact. After which, he will beam down energy from the station (using the cosmic rays to generate the power) and use it to power the world. Any region that challenges his rule will be literally shut down.

"But can you harness the cosmic rays?" Reed asks.

"What do you think is powering this space station, simpleton?"

Reed points out that in the ensuing black-outs and chaos, millions will die. A necessary sacrifice in Doom's eyes. What about the cosmic rays, though? How can Doom be sure they'll be around long enough to be a viable power source?

"My calculations indicate that they'll linger for the next hundred years. Long enough to build safe, clean, renewable energy sources for the planet. And that energy will be my legacy."

"And all you ask in return is blind obedience."

"Such a small price to pay for unquestionable security, wouldn't you agree?"

On the other hand, he could turn the ray on microbes and hyper-evolve them into an unstoppable army of super-predators, vulnerable only to the selfsame cosmic rays that created them (i.e., the Fantastic Four!). BWAHAHAHAHA!

[Herr Logan]

Blackbeard's treasure? Hey, why not?

No, I meant Victor Von Doom blowing up his lab while doing a dangerous experiment (the mother-in-Hell plot specifics don't need to be explored thoroughly if it will save time and make sure not to *gasp* alienate the general audience) that Richards told him was a mistake, clamping a searing hot mask over his barely scratched face and taking the title "Doctor" when he didn't finish his formal education. The vanity component to Dr. Doom can't possibly be portrayed any better than having him mess up his own face in his desperate attempt to hide a single, insignificant scar. I like the vanity component of the character, and if you introduce the specifics of that aspect later on in the film as something to exploit and use against the Latverian monarch, that could be some damn good storytelling if done right.

[Sardaukar]

Good ideas everyone.

I was thinking about this and what if Doom and Reed's company was involved in creating space-based nuclear weapons technology for the US government? This would make sense seeing as how missile defence and the weaponization of space is a big issue and is actually right around the corner.

The FF's final launch with Doom could be part of some kind of public relations plan that's promoting the completion of the whole system. But of course, after the crash it's discovered that Doom's made sure he's in actual control of the whole weapons system and he's going to use it to start blowing up targets unless the world listens to his demands.

The only negative part of this whole thing is why would a great guy like Reed be involved in making weapons tech. in the first place? Maybe that could be a subplot...Reed feels guilty about what he's done and has to prove himself and fix things by stopping Doom (makes it more personal between the two characters).

[The Batman]

Someone says he's a Lex ripoff, someone says hes exactly like Doom in the comics. Another says he has the power to create organic metal, another says he cant.

Whats the deal?

[bweurk]

actually you can't make a faithfull doom in one movie...

[Kelly]

Someone says he's a Lex ripoff, someone says hes exactly like Doom in the comics. Another says he has the power to create organic metal, another says he cant.

Whats the deal?

The deal is "different strokes for different folks" its all about a difference of opinion.....which will always happen in these circumstances......so I say read alot, gripe alittle, sit back and enjoy a Fantastic Movie......... ;)

[The Batman]

Ok...What I'm pretty much asking is...whats Doom gonna be like in this movie?

[bweurk]

The deal is "different strokes for different folks" its all about a difference of opinion.....which will always happen in these circumstances......so I say read alot, gripe alittle, sit back and enjoy a Fantastic Movie......... ;)

different strokes????????? you mean Arnold and Willy??? never mention this Tv show, it is doomed

[Kelly]

Ok...What I'm pretty much asking is...whats Doom gonna be like in this movie?

LMAO..........at this point.....your guess is as good as anyones on this board.... ;)

[ultimatefan]

It´s a little hard to tell exactly at this point... But it seems from different script drafts out there that Doom isn´t quite the same character as in comics (potential SPOILERS ahead).




He´s a businessman, he´s involved with the trip to space, he gets contamined by the cosmic ray cloud, he develops an organic metal armor. He was Sue´s fiancee prior to the accident and gets jealous of Reed. Some of us who read it think he´s still an interesting characters, some think he´s not. A recent script review - but that we don´t know for sure if is about the shooting draft - has Doom disappearing for a while after the space trip and showing up mutated and in all crazy mode, stealing motorcycles and such...

[Sardaukar]

Ok...What I'm pretty much asking is...whats Doom gonna be like in this movie?

An abomination.

[bweurk]

don't steal my place

[bweurk]

is doctor doom's suit puffy?

[TNC9852002]

There is no suit.. :p

-TNC

[bweurk]

doom will be naked????

[Obi-Ron]

different strokes????????? you mean Arnold and Willy??? never mention this Tv show, it is doomed

Can't you just see Julian McMahon saying "What you talkin' bout, Richards?"

[TNC9852002]

If you don't count the cloak.. :p

-TNC

[bweurk]

Can't you just see Julian McMahon saying "What you talkin' bout, Richards?"

looooooooooooool

[Kmack]

I honestly don't believe anyone actually knows whats the deal on Doom. As I read, they've changed the script (I don't know if they changed it completely) but for all we know Doom's appearance might remain mysterious until a trailer is shown....

[Lobo]

No one really knows, we are just hoping they don't phuck up Doom.

[Flame on!]

...stealing motorcycles and such...
How dare he.

[TheSumOfGod]

MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!

The main problem with the movie version of Doom so far (according to many reviews of various drafts of the screenplay, one of them apparently being the almost-definitive draft written right before the shooting script) is that this Doom isn't the Doom we know and love from the comic books, he's a brand new Doom just for the movie. Latveria is no longer a foreign country, it's now the name of his New York-based company. He is no longer a super-genius equal to or perhaps even superior to Reed Richards, now he's just a ruthless businessman. He goes insane and tries to take over the world for no apparent reason. His personality is completely different. No black magic whatsover. His only special ability is that he becomes super-strong and virtually indestructible, so that he may rival the Thing and fight him in a subway tunnel and then in the sewers. I don't mind his armor now being his own transformed flesh, they did this in Ultimate FF and it worked, but the Ultimate version of Doom is still Doctor freakin' Doom, no Latveria (yet), no sorcery (yet), but still the same general appearance, the same megalomaniacal personality, the same way of speaking ("You shall fall by the hand of Doom! DOOM!"), he still has everything that matters, that makes him who he is, such an addictive and phenomenal supervillain. The movie version of Doom sucks ass, plain and simple. The writers seem to have gotten the FF themselves very well, but as far as Doom is concerned, they f***ed the pooch, period. I haven't seen such a poorly rendered comic book character since Bane in Batman & Robin.

[GL-Corps#28]

Dammit, if they make Doom like Lex, then they better not change Lex for the SUperman movie.

[TheSumOfGod]

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2004-10/marvel-covers/ultimateff12.jpg

See what I mean? Even ULTIMATE Doctor Doom is pretty cool.

[snazzy J]

[IMG]See what I mean? Even ULTIMATE Doctor Doom is pretty cool.He ain't got nothin' on classic Doom, though.

[TheSumOfGod]

He ain't got nothin' on classic Doom, though.

No, not yet (give him a chance! they're only up to issue 11!), but he's still ten times better than the movie version I've read about.

[FanWithoutFear2]

The choice is simple: bring back the Doom that was in a previous script (the one that stays true to his roots) and incorporate him into the current one...or risk another comic-book movie bust that would make Catwoman look like a minor loss to investors.

[Cool_Jerk]

actually you can't make a faithfull doom in one movie...

Y'know... I think it can. All it takes is some creative writing on Hollywood's part... something that I feel is lacking with this production.

re: FanWithoutFear2 -- What previous script? Was there one with a faithful Doom? All I've heard or read has been organic techno-armor malarkey.

[Zev]

Good ideas everyone.

I was thinking about this and what if Doom and Reed's company was involved in creating space-based nuclear weapons technology for the US government? This would make sense seeing as how missile defence and the weaponization of space is a big issue and is actually right around the corner.

The FF's final launch with Doom could be part of some kind of public relations plan that's promoting the completion of the whole system. But of course, after the crash it's discovered that Doom's made sure he's in actual control of the whole weapons system and he's going to use it to start blowing up targets unless the world listens to his demands.

The only negative part of this whole thing is why would a great guy like Reed be involved in making weapons tech. in the first place? Maybe that could be a subplot...Reed feels guilty about what he's done and has to prove himself and fix things by stopping Doom (makes it more personal between the two characters).

Oh dear God, not the "I'm a scientist, I hate the military!" cliche. That's as old hat as the "we shouldn't have invented the nuke!" cliche and "the butler did it!" Especially since in the comics, Reed and Ben both fought in WW2. If anything, they'd be glad to have a system that could be used to save American soldiers from having to, you know, go in and get the bastards.

Seriously, there's NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING WEAPONS. More over a 'Star Wars' type system to shoot down possible nuclear missile attacks on America (I'm assuming that's what this satellite-based weaponry would be). At most, I'd see Reed feeling bad because his defensive weaponry is being used for murderous, evil purposes. Sorta like a doctor who develops a painkiller, then discovers it's being sold as a narcotic. Remember, technology is inheritantly neither good nor evil, it's a tool that man uses.

Rant over.

[Herr Logan]

Bruce Banner felt bad about making a gamma bomb for the military. Might have something to do with the fact that it directly ruined his life.

[snazzy J]

Y'know... I think it can. All it takes is some creative writing on Hollywood's part... something that I feel is lacking with this production.

re: FanWithoutFear2 -- What previous script? Was there one with a faithful Doom? All I've heard or read has been organic techno-armor malarkey.
I've heard good things about a draft by Micheal France from a while back, but I've never read it. Real good things, actually. Like "could've been the best superhero movie ever" type things.

[snazzy J]

No, not yet (give him a chance! they're only up to issue 11!), but he's still ten times better than the movie version I've read about.
Classic Doom could've proven himself in one issue. ;)

[snazzy J]

Oh dear God, not the "I'm a scientist, I hate the military!" cliche. That's as old hat as the "we shouldn't have invented the nuke!" cliche and "the butler did it!" Especially since in the comics, Reed and Ben both fought in WW2. If anything, they'd be glad to have a system that could be used to save American soldiers from having to, you know, go in and get the bastards.

Seriously, there's NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING WEAPONS. More over a 'Star Wars' type system to shoot down possible nuclear missile attacks on America (I'm assuming that's what this satellite-based weaponry would be). At most, I'd see Reed feeling bad because his defensive weaponry is being used for murderous, evil purposes. Sorta like a doctor who develops a painkiller, then discovers it's being sold as a narcotic. Remember, technology is inheritantly neither good nor evil, it's a tool that man uses.

Rant over.
Okay, now you've dragged politics into this. How can you say weapons aren't good or evil? The entire purpose of a weapon is to hurt someone. Hurting someone isn't good.

[Docker2.0]

Don't know if this has been brought up or not but will he? What about his mom? Will she be mentioned?

[snazzy J]

Most likely not, as I don't think eurotrash businessmen usually have much time for the black arts. Or at least the type comic Doom uses.

[Darko]

F**k no....He will be a deranged sociapathic scientist with issues against a certain elongated astronaut-turned-superhero...................

[Herr Logan]

Violence isn't "good", either, but superheroes use violence to protect people. Weapons are a necessary evil. The extent and magnitude to which they are necessary is the real question.

[snazzy J]

Violence isn't "good", either, but superheroes use violence to protect people. Weapons are a necessary evil. The extent and magnitude to which they are necessary is the real question.
Exactly. Once again, we're in the same place. Weapons and violence are evil, but, like you said, a necessary evil.

[Herr Logan]

Scientists like Reed Richards would be better suited to make benevolent inventions and discoveries. It takes far more intelligence to effectively heal, cure and protect than it does to harm and destroy. Reed Richards is supposed to be the smartest man in the world, so I'd rather he lived up to his potential instead of taking the route Bruce Banner did. Richards will have more than enough about which to feel guilty when he becomes responsible for his best friend's condition. The search for benevolent discoveries or discoveries with benevolent ramifications can still bring negative consequences, especially when hubris is a factor.

[TheSumOfGod]

Classic Doom could've proven himself in one issue. ;)

Dude, we're not living in the sixties anymore, stories have to be a lot more credible and realistic nowadays, you can't just have a guy being exposed to some sort of strange radiation, suddenly gaining miraculous superpowers, putting on a colorful spandex suit and declaring: "From now on, I shall be known as -insert name here- man!"

[Sauron]

NO NOT ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT THIS!!! :doom:

[snazzy J]

Dude, we're not living in the sixties anymore, stories have to be a lot more credible and realistic nowadays, you can't just have a guy being exposed to some sort of strange radiation, suddenly gaining miraculous superpowers, putting on a colorful spandex suit and declaring: "From now on, I shall be known as -insert name here- man!"
The ";)" was there for a reason.

[TheSumOfGod]

The ";)" was there for a reason.

I know, I know, but you have to admit that "Insert-Name-Here-Man" would be a great superhero name. "You-Know-What-I-Mean-Man" being even better. ;)

[spiderwyze]

I'm still amused by the term "organic skin" as used by Doom fans. "No organic skin," they shout, meaning that Doom's shouldn't have organic armor as skin. But the way they phrase it makes me chuckle, because it sounds like they WANT steel skin. After all, the original Doctor Doom and normal people have organic skin. :)

[Cool_Jerk]

Yeah, spiderwyze... I noticed that, too. Felt like I'd be flamed for mentioning the gaffe. Luckily I bided my time to let someone else take the heat. =:^)

Organic skin... yes.
Organic steel...no thanks.

[TheSumOfGod]

I don't mind organic steel as long as Doom's personality, past history and inner motivations were to remain relatively the same.

[darth_coolius]

VON DOOM INDUSTRIES? Wow, that sounds so consumer friendly. This has extreme cheese written all over it.

[GL-Corps#28]

I wish my last name was Von Doom. That would be so badass...

[TheSumOfGod]

I wish my last name was Von Doom. That would be so badass...

My actual real birth name is Jacobus Blackstream. My parents were Joseph Richard Blackstream and Marie-Anne Delapointe Blackstream. I'm not the rightful heir to some eastern-european throne or anything, but still, I have a pretty good sounding supervillain name.

[GL-Corps#28]

Awesome name dude. You should get a doctorate in something to complete it.

And a big, billowy cloak. Oh, and a sceptor.

[TheSumOfGod]

Awesome name dude. You should get a doctorate in something to complete it.

And a big, billowy cloak. Oh, and a sceptor.

I am Doctor Jacobus Blackstream, Prince of Wallochia, and soon, you shall all bow down before me, you puny mortals!

[darth_coolius]

Blackstream sound a little pervvy to me, no offense. :) Blackmourne, change it to that. Dude, I'm gonna make a comic with the villian named that.

[snazzy J]

Come on, no one wants to tell me what they thought of my ideas?!

[Herr Logan]

I feel it's too similar to the script being used for the film, or the previous script, or whichever one I read. I'd prefer leaving that plot behind and using something closer to the story from the comics (meaning with elements of Doom's life that were revealed much later than the origin of the Fantastic Four).

[cryptic name]

Yes, folks, the great Khan said words like those in that subliminal Trek sequel. Khan was a man of great power and intelligence, yet he was wounded and wanted revenge...what a great character he was; I dare say he was the best villain Star Trek ever knew.

Doom could be like that. The backstory of the Master's beloved Latveria could effectively be incorporated into this film, even if the only time we actually see that fair country is at the very end of the movie!

1. In only a few (but gripping) moments throughout the film, Doom is disturbed and vulnerable (and we all know that Doom hates being vulnerable-it only adds to his rage and determination). He is continually plagued by nightmares and visions of a moment from when he was a child, a moment when his entire family was executed before his eyes. He feels ashamed that he, the rightful heir of Latveria, fled in fear while a usurper stole the throne.

Doom is also angry. You see, the usurper (let's respect canon and call him Vladimir) was actually backed and given weapons by the United States and other Western nations. But now Vladimir rules Latveria under an iron fist worse than that of the Von Doom's, but of course Vladimir is still an ally of the West as they continually overlook his crimes against humanity for political/economical reasons (just like China's control of Tibet).

This enrages Doom...and gives him enough of an excuse to really hate the world. That hate serves as proper motivation for him to avenge himself and his dead loved ones upon all the world.

I'd like to see a scene where Sue tries to understand why Victor is so angry and he explains to her his family's tragedy. Hell, if they really want Sue to connect intimately with Victor and make us understand the guy, that's a fine moment to do it in! Then, to back that up, maybe Doom's claim to the Latverian throne could be quickly alluded to by a fast news clip or something.

2. Skip to the climax of the film:

The FF defeat Doom and his charred corpse is laying before them. But, guess what, when the authorities arrive to examine the body, they discover that it's a robot (or a dummy, whatever suits your taste)! Doom has escaped; he is still out there somewhere...

3. Skip to the very end of the film:

6 months later...

Sitting on this throne, King Vladimir is cowering in mortal terror. An invincible enemy has broken through his palace's defenses. A doorway blasts open. The king watches in horror as a dark, cloaked figure approaches him.

You know the rest...

No what kind of setup is that for a sequel?


Doom appreciates your respect and fear. you shall be spared from Doom's wrath.

[snazzy J]

I feel it's too similar to the script being used for the film, or the previous script, or whichever one I read. I'd prefer leaving that plot behind and using something closer to the story from the comics (meaning with elements of Doom's life that were revealed much later than the origin of the Fantastic Four).
Well I was shooting to keep it fairly similar to the Frost draft, so it's understandable that you'd notice that. My goal was to make it close to the script they're using so it would be easier for them to use, while still making it a pretty accurate depiction of Doom.

[Swift]

I think having organic metal skin takes away alot of Doom's personality. Creating his own Hi-tech armor and scolding his flesh says alot about what Doom is all about.

[Edd Extraordinaire]

This movie will ruin the good name of DOOM.

[hame4479]

VON DOOM INDUSTRIES? Wow, that sounds so consumer friendly. This has extreme cheese written all over it.
Yeh because compony owners never name their companies after themselves. Oscorp um...yeh, then their is always donald trump he loves to throw his name around

[Hypestyle]

.... The Logo for the company looks like Doom's traditional "mouth"....

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/cgi-bin/ImageFolio31/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Fantastic_Four/Behind_the_Scene_Photos&image=doomhq2.jpg&img=&tt=

[Hypestyle]

oh... and is Doom clearly American in the film, or an immigrant from Eastern Europe?

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/cgi-bin/ImageFolio31/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Fantastic_Four/Behind_the_Scene_Photos&image=doomhq2.jpg&img=&tt=

[Shadow_Crawler]

This movie will ruin the good name of DOOM.
No it won't.


WAIT STOP HOLD ON
It WILL ruin the good name of DOOM BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE THE COMICS


Only I think it's interesting how their doing it in the movie.

[Dissonance]

oh... and is Doom clearly American in the film, or an immigrant from Eastern Europe?

http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/cgi-bin/ImageFolio31/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Fantastic_Four/Behind_the_Scene_Photos&image=doomhq2.jpg&img=&tt=

All signs point to Eastern European. It was in the Frost draft, and they were even on the look-out for "a guy with an accent" when casting.

[spiderwyze]

Okay, here's a plot outline a worked out just now combining the Frost script, the new script, and Sardaukar's idea:

Doom has been planning for years to take back Latveria and he is finally ready to do it, using his company's resources. To accomplish this, he's going to install a weapon on his pre-existing space station [This part does sound cheesy, but it explains why the launch occurs so quickly and why Doom comes along. If anybody comes up with a less-corny explanation, feel free to share it] and use it to take Latveria by force. The only problem is he needs an excuse to be up there so that no one will suspect anything. Enter Reed with his research mission, and Ben as his pilot. Doom has a history with the two, but realizes this is exactly what he needs for his plan, so they go ahead with the mission, along with Sue and Johnny. The accident occurs ala the Frost drift, except with Doom leaving in the escape pod like in the new script. The only difference is, instead of organic armor, he has been scarred, though we never actually see the scars. When he lands, he covertly returns to his company (Not on a stolen motorcycle!), leaving everyone to believe he has gone missing (or maybe the pod crashes and they think he's dead). He dons his armor, which he had already created to protect himself in his annexation of Latveria, forges his mask to hide his face, and decides to proceed with his plan, albeit with a newfound hatred of Reed, who he blames the accident on (though his scarring is actually his own fault). This all occurs in complete secrecy, no one being aware of his endeavors aside from a handful of scientists/engineers that he murders later on. Meanwhile, all the stuff from Frost's draft with the Four happens, setting up all their characters. Finally, in the third act, Doom carries out his plan and it is up to the Four to stop him. The ending I'm not so sure about, but I think it could involve Doom being defeated, but still getting away. Then, at the very end after Reed proposes to Sue, Doom could be shown something like "Commence preparations for Plan B, " or something, but less cheesy. Thoughts?

That would certainly make sense, and it'd be really cool to see in the movie. The question I have is in what order should all these plot details be revealed, because there should be a mystery at first as to why the events are happening the way they are.

Also, it occurs to me that this approach would work best if the movie focused on Doom rather than the Fantastic Four. So there has to be a way to tie Doom's suplot into what the FF are going through. For instance, when Doom finds out what happens to Richards and the rest, how does he react? How does he see them fitting into his scheme? Does he want to rub them out because they're an unknown variable he hadn't planned on? Does he decide to factor them into his scheme and manipulate them like chess pieces? I'm asking because I haven't read the Frost draft (somedays I feel like the only person on this board who hasn't), and I'm genuinely curious as to how Doom ties into the Fantastic Four's storyarc. Just as heroes are judged by villains, so are villains defined by how well they tie into the heroes. Even the best villain in history is going to be awkward in a story that doesn't tie him in well with the direction the heroes are going in.

Anyway, I happened to like this idea, snazzy, and I think this is a great thread for brainstorming ideas. Even if nothing ever comes of these ideas because the movie does something else, it's still fun to think about.

[c101380]

Man, even the lame ass Roger Corman movie had a better background for Victor...

[Shadow_Crawler]

Only it was still pretty horrible.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Only it was still pretty horrible.

But at least somewhat accurate.
Which is his point. I mean, if a no-talent like Corman can understand Doom, why can't Fox and their "talented :rolleyes: " screenwriters, which are paid a fortune for those superhero script, get it ???

[Uxmfan425]

But at least somewhat accurate.
Which is his point. I mean, if a no-talent like Corman can understand Doom, why can't Fox and their "talented :rolleyes: " screenwriters, which are paid a fortune for those superhero script, get it ???
Did you even SEE the 94 FF? Okay, so the Doom was an exact drag out of the comic books... but he was *****ING WEAK. He got beaten by Reed in three punches in the very end battle. He was the most hackneyed evil villain to ever grace the silver screen. He was cheesy enough to make a lactose intolerant hurt! THIS movie is trying to depart from that in the BEST way possible.

How else would you encompass Doom's might, intelligence, egocentrism, power, rage, and general mutha *****ing pimpness? How do you do that in a film that's supposed to take place in this day and age without fudging a few facts from the happy-go-lucky 60's?

Okay, yeah, so they got the ORIGIN right in the Corman flick... AND IT WAS LAME. So much hate doesn't come from an incident like that to any self-respecting man these days... especially not one so self-respecting as DOOM. There needs to be some SERIOUS ego torture here. Reed needs to hit Doom in ways beyond his appearence. They need to capture 40 years of building jealousy in a mere two hours and NOT over do it.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Did you even SEE the 94 FF? Okay, so the Doom was an exact drag out of the comic books... but he was *****ING WEAK. He got beaten by Reed in three punches in the very end battle. He was the most hackneyed evil villain to ever grace the silver screen. He was cheesy enough to make a lactose intolerant hurt! THIS movie is trying to depart from that in the BEST way possible.

How else would you encompass Doom's might, intelligence, egocentrism, power, rage, and general mutha *****ing pimpness? How do you do that in a film that's supposed to take place in this day and age without fudging a few facts from the happy-go-lucky 60's?

What's that got to do with Corman at least having respect to the character ? I never said anything about quality (heck, I even said "no-talent"). Um, Doom was out of his time in the 60's (I mean, he was dressing like a monarch out of the 14 centuary). He'd still be out of time. That's not what made Doom who he ****ing was.

And NEVER, EVER AGAIN, blast Doom's character and say he can't be done "faithfully and well" by pointing us to Corman's movie... NEVER again. You know Corman's movie sucked beyond belief, in EVERY aspect. No matter how great Doom's character is, in the hand of Corman, it means ****.
Give the Doom from the comics to some talented filmakers, and there's no doubt magic could be made on screen.

[Uxmfan425]

What's that got to do with Corman at least having respect to the character ? I never said anything about quality (heck, I even said "no-talent"). Um, Doom was out of his time in the 60's (I mean, he was dressing like a monarch out of the 14 centuary). He'd still be out of time. That's not what made Doom who he ****ing was.

And NEVER, EVER AGAIN, blast Doom's character and say he can't be done "faithfully and well" by pointing us to Corman's movie... NEVER again. You know Corman's movie sucked beyond belief, in EVERY aspect. No matter how great Doom's character is, in the hand of Corman, it means ****.
Give the Doom from the comics to some talented filmakers, and there's no doubt magic could be made on screen.

No doubt it can be done. But if you want it to be completely faithful in every aspect, you're gonna get Corman's Doom. Changing a few details in order to bring the character's awesomeness to the screen is what the good writers do. They know which parts need to be manipulated in the right ways... and though your die hard fanboy logic can't accept it, this is the most rational direction to take it. What presence in current society will a general public link with evil, vicious, selfish ruthlessness? Corporate America.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Okay, yeah, so they got the ORIGIN right in the Corman flick... AND IT WAS LAME.

Now THAT was stupid. The FF were LAME. Does that make the FF characters LAME ? Your argument is flaw beyond belief.

So much hate doesn't come from an incident like that to any self-respecting man these days...

It seems you know nothing of Doom. You DO know Doom things himself PERFECT ? He probably knows Reed had nothing to do with his "disfigurement". But his HUGE ego makes it impossible for him to envision himself capable of having performed such an error. And so he decided to blame Richard. How the **** does that make him out of the 60's ??? It makes him a guy with a GIANT EGO. It as nothing to do with the 60s or the present for that matter...

especially not one so self-respecting as DOOM. There needs to be some SERIOUS ego torture here. Reed needs to hit Doom in ways beyond his appearence. They need to capture 40 years of building jealousy in a mere two hours and NOT over do it.

Doom hit himself in "ways beyond his appearence". He proved he wasn't perfect, which, for him, is worse than anything. Read some comics next time before blasting Doom's character. And then, maybe ONLY then, will you see why Doom's such a great character.

[Uxmfan425]

I never blasted Doom's character. I LOVE Doom. I blasted the Doom in Corman's movie, because he was REDICULOUSLY FOOLISH compared to the Doom I know and love.

And the way that movie was written, he came across as a two bit pretty criminal compared to what is going on in this movie. The details may not be exactly true to the source material, but in this case, I think the ends justify the means.

[TheSaintofKillers]

I never blasted Doom's character. I LOVE Doom. I blasted the Doom in Corman's movie, because he was REDICULOUSLY FOOLISH compared to the Doom I know and love.

And the way that movie was written, he came across as a two bit pretty criminal compared to what is going on in this movie. The details may not be exactly true to the source material, but in this case, I think the ends justify the means.

Ok, but my point was "how can you justify not making a faithful Doom by looking at Corman's horrible FF movie "?

I mean, no matter WHAT Corman would have done, it would have suck. So, how could a faithful Doom by Corman prove to you it could work or not ? What he does SUCKS, no matter what! ;)

Edit: And you already said it yourself, he was "REDICULOUSLY FOOLISH compared to the Doom I know and love". So how can you take this Doom version to dare say that a faithful Doom wouldn't work ? When you know all to well he was badly portrayed. All Corman got right, was his origin. The rest, he.. um, I don't have any words to describe Corman's abomination here.

[Uxmfan425]

I can justify not making an ENTIRELY TO EVERY MINUTE DETAIL Doom by looking at Corman's film because that's what he did. The biggest things you're complaining about are expemplified in that Doom, and no matter what it was going to turn out badly. Unless you have 40 years to build up this AWESOME EVIL BAD ASS, starting in a day and age where taking over a country with a clone robot of some crappy ruler in an eastern European country as a result of some guy in college accidentally scaring your face seemed logical, it can't turn out well. It's not feasable. No matter how good the writer is, A MASS GENERAL AUDIENCE is gonna look at it and laugh their asses off... which is something I would NEVER want to happen to Doom. Ergo, some points of his history MUST BE CHANGED. As long as he's still vain, merciless, conniving mastermind, he's being faithful to the comics in the most important way. Little factors like, how he got so angry, aren't important when they're irrelevent in today's society.

[BloodsuckaHunta]

Dr. Doom will actually reveal himself to have obtained the Guyver unit.
Hence the "Bio-Boosted-Armor"...

I really feel that Marvel movies take great pains to get the hero characters pretty acurate visually, but the villains are a different batch.

[Obi-Ron]

This thread title made me think of Jerry Seinfeld's old stand-up bits.

"Airline food...what's up with that?
And what is the deal with Doctor Doom?"

[hame4479]

I can justify not making an ENTIRELY TO EVERY MINUTE DETAIL Doom by looking at Corman's film because that's what he did. The biggest things you're complaining about are expemplified in that Doom, and no matter what it was going to turn out badly. Unless you have 40 years to build up this AWESOME EVIL BAD ASS, starting in a day and age where taking over a country with a clone robot of some crappy ruler in an eastern European country as a result of some guy in college accidentally scaring your face seemed logical, it can't turn out well. It's not feasable. No matter how good the writer is, A MASS GENERAL AUDIENCE is gonna look at it and laugh their asses off... which is something I would NEVER want to happen to Doom. Ergo, some points of his history MUST BE CHANGED. As long as he's still vain, merciless, conniving mastermind, he's being faithful to the comics in the most important way. Little factors like, how he got so angry, aren't important when they're irrelevent in today's society.
He is right everyone would point and laugh. I mean it would be awesome but in todays world that just isnt a very interesting villian to the general audience. I could see it now, why did he go crazy because he scarred his face? that question would be asked a thousand times

[snazzy J]

That would certainly make sense, and it'd be really cool to see in the movie. The question I have is in what order should all these plot details be revealed, because there should be a mystery at first as to why the events are happening the way they are. I was thinking that his plan would be hinted at and we would know something was going on, but we wouldn't actually find out until near the end. Like, maybe he could disappear for awhile on the space station before the accident. The Four could get suspicious, but then the accident occurs and they forget for the time being. We would see him hit by an explosion during the accident, his escape back to Earth, and his return to his headquarters (not the main building, his secret lair-type place, like his production facility or whatever). We still wouldn't find out his real scheme, but we might hear him say, "The operation will go forward as planned," or something like that to his faithful manservant, Boris. Then, in the third act, we would finally learn exactly what's up as the movie nears it's climax.

Also, it occurs to me that this approach would work best if the movie focused on Doom rather than the Fantastic Four. So there has to be a way to tie Doom's suplot into what the FF are going through. For instance, when Doom finds out what happens to Richards and the rest, how does he react? How does he see them fitting into his scheme? Does he want to rub them out because they're an unknown variable he hadn't planned on? Does he decide to factor them into his scheme and manipulate them like chess pieces? I'm asking because I haven't read the Frost draft (somedays I feel like the only person on this board who hasn't), and I'm genuinely curious as to how Doom ties into the Fantastic Four's storyarc. Just as heroes are judged by villains, so are villains defined by how well they tie into the heroes. Even the best villain in history is going to be awkward in a story that doesn't tie him in well with the direction the heroes are going in. Well he would develop his enourmous hatred for Reed after the whole scarring thing, so I think killing them would be his final goal, but I like your idea of manipulating them first. He could decide to use them as a distraction for the world until he's ready to complete his plot and destroy them in one fell swoop. I don't think we have to worry too much about how he ties into their storyarc, as he is the reason they were able to be there and get their powers in the first place and he will be their first real test as superheroes.

As far as his character arc goes, there's a couple things I'd like to see. First, he'd be furious about his face and that would lead to a consuming hatred of Reed and, by extension, the Four, but revenge wouldn't surpass his first priority: taking control of Latveria (though it would come pretty close). Also, after the accident, his face would always be hidden so that we'd never see his scars, until he reveals himself in the third act. We would finally get a glimpse of the extent of the scarring at the same time as the Four and we would discover that it was actually just a tiny scratch on his cheek. But no sooner than we are shown this, he finally puts on his still-scalding-hot mask, destroying his face.

Also, if you want a copy of the Frost draft, just PM me your email.

Anyway, I happened to like this idea, snazzy, and I think this is a great thread for brainstorming ideas. Even if nothing ever comes of these ideas because the movie does something else, it's still fun to think about.
Yep, it can't hurt to come up with a storyline of our own.

[snazzy J]

And while we're talking about my outline, there are definitely some pretty big flaws in there. One is that it's awfully convenient for Doom to already have his armor already made. That one's not too big, but it seems a bit coincidental. The really big plot error is that, if he's got this big weapon thing up in the sky, why is he only taking Latveria? Wouldn't he want more, like, say, the world? If you can come up with ways to explain around these, I'd love to hear them.

[TheSaintofKillers]

I can justify not making an ENTIRELY TO EVERY MINUTE DETAIL Doom by looking at Corman's film because that's what he did. The biggest things you're complaining about are expemplified in that Doom, and no matter what it was going to turn out badly. Unless you have 40 years to build up this AWESOME EVIL BAD ASS, starting in a day and age where taking over a country with a clone robot of some crappy ruler in an eastern European country as a result of some guy in college accidentally scaring your face seemed logical, it can't turn out well. It's not feasable. No matter how good the writer is, A MASS GENERAL AUDIENCE is gonna look at it and laugh their asses off... which is something I would NEVER want to happen to Doom. Ergo, some points of his history MUST BE CHANGED. As long as he's still vain, merciless, conniving mastermind, he's being faithful to the comics in the most important way. Little factors like, how he got so angry, aren't important when they're irrelevent in today's society.

Sorry, but I see a flaw here. ;)
Why ? Because Doom works in the comics today! Which destroy your point. Doom has evolve from day one to today. But his origin is still the same, and it works in today's comics. And if it works in today's comics, (which means people like me and you can read the comic without finding it ridiculous whatsoever), then it could work in a new movie. Sure, if you adapt the character's attitude from the 60's completly, it wouldn't work (but then again, same thing with ANY character from the 60's, and especially the FF). But the way the characters have evolved ? Hell yes.

[Sardaukar]

The really big plot error is that, if he's got this big weapon thing up in the sky, why is he only taking Latveria? Wouldn't he want more, like, say, the world? If you can come up with ways to explain around these, I'd love to hear them.

For the armor, Doom could be portrayed as a genius of robotics and weapons tech at the beginning of the movie. It therefore wouldn't be a surprise to the audience if he just quickly adapts all that to a personal battlesuit later on.

Doom would be portrayed in the first movie as really just a guy who wants to help his people.

Once he starts his rule in Latveria (in the sequel?), he'll become more power hungry and come to believe that the paradise he has achieved in his country can be brought to the world, only through him.

What I like about a nuclear device plot is that there's no way he could use nukes to take back Latveria if he doesn't want it destroyed. He may have nukes, but he doesn't have the manpower to take Latveria by force, so he's forced to threaten the UN to take it back for him.

That's why even though he fails to take Latveria by force in the first movie, he takes his time and uses stealth and guile to take it maybe in the beginning of the second movie.

[Kurosawa]

He is right everyone would point and laugh. I mean it would be awesome but in todays world that just isnt a very interesting villian to the general audience. I could see it now, why did he go crazy because he scarred his face? that question would be asked a thousand times

Here is proof that you don't understand Doom one bit.

Doom is NOT crazy. That's one of the main things that makes Doom superior to most other comic villians. Doom is not insane in the least. He's arrogant, fascistic and vain, but he is not insane by any stretch of the imagination.

John Byrne established Doom as a complete bad-ass with a full background in 8 pages of comic story that would last 10 minutes max on screen if adapted word-for-word. So the "they don't have time" excuse is lame and false.

The fact is, they don't have the imagination, the respect for comics, or the balls to use a faithful Doom. That's why they've pulled the corporate eurotrash jealous boyfriend loser cliché out of the box and tried to pass it off as Doom, the greatest villian in the history of comics.

They can go to hell.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Here is proof that you don't understand Doom one bit.

Doom is NOT crazy. That's one of the main things that makes Doom superior to most other comic villians. Doom is not insane in the least. He's arrogant, fascistic and vain, but he is not insane by any stretch of the imagination.

John Byrne established Doom as a complete bad-ass with a full background in 8 pages of comic story that would last 10 minutes max on screen if adapted word-for-word. So the "they don't have time" excuse is lame and false.

The fact is, they don't have the imagination, the respect for comics, or the balls to use a faithful Doom. That's why they've pulled the corporate eurotrash jealous boyfriend loser cliché out of the box and tried to pass it off as Doom, the greatest villian in the history of comics.

They can go to hell.

And then burn and be sodomize. :mad:

[Kurosawa]

Lol!

[Cool_Jerk]

Thank you, Kurosawa. Saved me the energy typing the exact same thing.

[snazzy J]

For the armor, Doom could be portrayed as a genius of robotics and weapons tech at the beginning of the movie. It therefore wouldn't be a surprise to the audience if he just quickly adapts all that to a personal battlesuit later on.

Doom would be portrayed in the first movie as really just a guy who wants to help his people.

Once he starts his rule in Latveria (in the sequel?), he'll become more power hungry and come to believe that the paradise he has achieved in his country can be brought to the world, only through him.

What I like about a nuclear device plot is that there's no way he could use nukes to take back Latveria if he doesn't want it destroyed. He may have nukes, but he doesn't have the manpower to take Latveria by force, so he's forced to threaten the UN to take it back for him.

That's why even though he fails to take Latveria by force in the first movie, he takes his time and uses stealth and guile to take it maybe in the beginning of the second movie.
Now we're really getting somewhere. Regarding the armor, that's good thinking there. It could be established that he's an expert in that field and when the Four arrive on the scene with their powers, he'll realize that he needs a way to balance the scales. I guess it wouldn't be too realistic for him to cook up the armor in a relatively short period of time.

Also, that's a pretty good explanation of why he only wants Latveria. As long as it's shown that the only thing he really cares about is the Latverian people and that the world is of no concern to him, it would make sense. His thirst for world domination could come later on down the road, once he's already an established dictator.

[homestarrunner]

What if Doom wasn't on the ship?? Say reed makes some discovery about the rays and how they affect the universe. Not to be outdone since doom thinks his genius is superior, creates an expierement of his own. Something goes horibly wrong and his body is left scared and burned. Seeing himself as a faliure doom uses the armor to hide the mistake that was victor von doom, thus is born the newly formed man that is the good doctor. To rise out of the shadow that was victor and become the leader he was born to be.:doom:

[GoblinScrier]

I love all these ideas that I am reading ! :doom: would be pleased ! Furthermore, he wishes you all to be hired as his private writers ! :doom: sends :doom: bots to eliminate incompetent writers at Fox and hires fans ! Kurosawa, thesaintofkille, and myself will be in charge to make sure that we all do the Master proud !

Fox, a rare opportunity is here to make the most memorable villain in the history of comics a memorable villain for the screen ! I have already accepted certain facts but you can fix the rest !

[TheSaintofKillers]

One of my main beef with Doom's situation is that many people say (to defend Fox's horrendous decision) that explaining Doom's origin would be too long for the first movie. I disgress. Why ? Because you simply do not need to explain it all in details.
If Fox had any respect for Doom, they could have opted to have a Victor which is already King and powerful, already scarred and in his unique armor. We could later on learn (through one of Reed's tales) the overall story of the good doctor. Why Fox see the needs to tell in details Doom's story AND mix it with the FF's origin is beyond me, especially since they could even more easily make his story shrouded in mystery.

When we first met Vader in A new hope, we didn't know his full background (actually, we knew nearly nothing). Later on, in the trilogy, we learned more. BUT, that technique only served to renforced how majestic he was on screen.
Same could be applied to Doom. He could ALREADY be the all powerful Doom we all know and love in the beginning of the movie, just like he had been scarred years before the FF were ever change by cosmic rays in the comics.

Imagine the audience being threated to a character such as Doom. :eek:

One thing's for sure, they sure as **** would want to learn more about him and how he came to be. Which might be explain later on in the first movie, and even more in the inevitable sequels. Doom's character is so great that people would salivate everytime they would learn one more tidbit about his origin and his many fantastic voyages.

Doom is THAT great of a character. Why mess with such potential ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/thesaintofkiller/docdoom.jpg

[Uxmfan425]

Sorry, but I see a flaw here. ;)
Why ? Because Doom works in the comics today! Which destroy your point. Doom has evolve from day one to today. But his origin is still the same, and it works in today's comics. And if it works in today's comics, (which means people like me and you can read the comic without finding it ridiculous whatsoever), then it could work in a new movie. Sure, if you adapt the character's attitude from the 60's completly, it wouldn't work (but then again, same thing with ANY character from the 60's, and especially the FF). But the way the characters have evolved ? Hell yes.
Doom works today because he's had 40 years to become one badasssonofa*****. And with a background like that, such things take TIME. As the public has evolved, so has the character. You can't just carry 40 years over into a 2 hour movie. A good writer has to pick certain parts of his history that will translate the most important parts of his personality on screen so that will make sense to a general audience.

YOUR point makes no sense because I've said in EVERY SINGLE POST since you've started talking, that bringing Doom's origin will be only a major joke to a general audience that has no knowledge of the past 40 years, while you and I have been enlightened by ALL of the history.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Doom works today because he's had 40 years to become one badasssonofa*****. And with a background like that, such things take TIME. As the public has evolved, so has the character. You can't just carry 40 years over into a 2 hour movie. A good writer has to pick certain parts of his history that will translate the most important parts of his personality on screen so that will make sense to a general audience.

YOUR point makes no sense because I've said in EVERY SINGLE POST since you've started talking, that bringing Doom's origin will be only a major joke to a general audience that has no knowledge of the past 40 years, while you and I have been enlightened by ALL of the history.

Read my last post, i've already explain why they wouldn't need to explain 40 years of Doom's history in such sort time. ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

One of my main beef with Doom's situation is that many people say (to defend Fox's horrendous decision) that explaining Doom's origin would be too long for the first movie. I disgress. Why ? Because you simply do not need to explain it all in details.
If Fox had any respect for Doom, they could have opted to have a Victor which is already King and powerful, already scarred and in his unique armor. We could later on learn (through one of Reed's tales) the overall story of the good doctor. Why Fox see the needs to tell in details Doom's story AND mix it with the FF's origin is beyond me, especially since they could even more easily make his story shrouded in mystery.

When we first met Vader in A new hope, we didn't know his full background (actually, we knew nearly nothing). Later on, in the trilogy, we learned more. BUT, that technique only served to renforced how majestic he was on screen.
Same could be applied to Doom. He could ALREADY be the all powerful Doom we all know and love in the beginning of the movie, just like he had been scarred years before the FF were ever change by cosmic rays in the comics.

Imagine the audience being threated to a character such as Doom. :eek:

One thing's for sure, they sure as **** would want to learn more about him and how he came to be. Which might be explain later on in the first movie, and even more in the inevitable sequels. Doom's character is so great that people would salivate everytime they would learn one more tidbit about his origin and his many fantastic voyages.

Doom is THAT great of a character. Why mess with such potential ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/thesaintofkiller/docdoom.jpg

Here. :p

edit: If, for A new hope, Lucas had opted to merge Vader's story with Luke's, and we would only have had the Vader we all know and love by the end of the first movie (but with a far more different origin than the one we know), you can bet he wouldn't have been as popular.

Telling the FF's origin is already complicated, why lose time with Doom's one ? Skip it, and then come back to tell it vaguely. It's as simple as that.

Btw, Sardaukar, I love the new name of the thread. ;)

[Cool_Jerk]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you CAN have a faithful backstory to Dr. Doom in a movie and it can be done in 5 minutes... BEFORE the opening titles! All it takes is some talent and vision... which may well be lacking in this production.

Go watch "Bram Stoker's Dracula" for a perfect example of compressed backstory. They took the origins, history, motivations, passions and consequences of Vlad Dracul and led the movie with it. Everything that anyone needed to know about how he became a vampire and his obsession with Mina Murray was taken care of before the "actual" movie began.

They could EASILY do this with von Doom.

Show him as a gypsy boy, fleeing with his father and Boris from the Latverian Baron's soldiers. Werner von Doom succumbs to the cold and young Victor vows revenge on not only the Baron... but the world. Viginette a bunch of scenes where he uses his scientific skill and mother's gypsy magicks to undermine the Baron's rule... which leads him to be noticed by a recruiter for State U in America. Enter Reed Richards and Ben (who can remain unnamed at this point) who try to befreind von Doom. Show von Doom's accellerated studying and advancements in science... plus a little sorcery and secret experiment being built in his dorm. Show Richards again, pointing out a math error and von Doom's rage at the "arrogance" of this! He continues with the experiment and it blows up. He's expelled while checking out his ruined face in the university and leaves America for parts unknown... perhaps mentioning that someday the world shall know of von Doom... and the world will know him as their master.

Roll titles.

Can be done in 5-7 minutes.

Anything else regarding Doom would be handled in the second reel. For example, when -- simultaneous with the FF receiving notoriety for their exploits -- von Doom wrests control of his homeland in a bloody coup. Even there, it could be mentioned in the background, like on the news as a SPECIAL REPORT, pre-empting Johnny's appearance on Conan O'Brien, for example. Further explainations of von Doom's Tibetian-Monk armor & mask can happen when Richards and von Doom finally confront each other and compare notes that their destinies crossed years ago at State U... and that Doom realizes that Richards was the student that (he thinks) sabotaged his attempt to free his mother from the netherworld. This would amplify Doom's mission in life -- to not only free his mother from the netherworld, and to rule the planet... but to destroy Richards and his misbegotten friends.

Well, probably not for this movie, since it looks like everythings already written in stone. I guess we should feel fortunate that we're getting a remake 11 years after the Corman one. If they remake Tim Story version in 2016, they may certainly use my example.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Doom works today because he's had 40 years to become one badasssonofa*****. And with a background like that, such things take TIME. As the public has evolved, so has the character. You can't just carry 40 years over into a 2 hour movie. A good writer has to pick certain parts of his history that will translate the most important parts of his personality on screen so that will make sense to a general audience.

YOUR point makes no sense because I've said in EVERY SINGLE POST since you've started talking, that bringing Doom's origin will be only a major joke to a general audience that has no knowledge of the past 40 years, while you and I have been enlightened by ALL of the history.

Btw, I was (and I'm sure the same thing hapened to many of us Doom fans) intrigued and sure as heck impress by the first Doom comic I ever read. I KNEW Doom had one heck of a background the first time I discovered him years ago. Not knowing his background didn't stop me from finding him to ALREADY be one of the best villain. How would it ****ing be different for new viewers ? For them, it would be like reading for the first time a Doom comic. If the comic's great, even if they don't know his full background, they WILL like him.

It seems you are suggesting that for liking Doom you must know his full background, which I find absurd. Audience do NOT need to know everything, just like they didn't need to know Vader's whole background to enjoy him (shame on you Lucas for trying to tell it now... :mad: ).

[Ktulu]

Your ideas are all well and good, to be sure, but this is an adaptation, not a word-for-word recreation.


I've said it once and I'll say it again: STOP EXPECTING THE COMICS.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Great way to tell Doom's story, Cool_Jerk. Dracula is one of my favorite movie, and the intro is by far my favorite scene from the movie. The music theme "Dracula the beginning" gives me chill everytime I hear it, and I listen to it everytime I read a Doom comic (it fits so well).

Doing an intro this way, in a very fast and cutting way, WOULD work, and work well to establish Doom's character. Unfortunately, it seems Fox is run by stupid monkeys who only wish to rape Victor's character. It seems Doom has a far greater ennemy than Richard: evil stupid corporate monkeys.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/thesaintofkiller/monkeys.jpg

[TheSaintofKillers]

Your ideas are all well and good, to be sure, but this is an adaptation, not a word-for-word recreation.


I've said it once and I'll say it again: STOP EXPECTING THE COMICS.

Why ? Aren't these ADAPTATIONS ? Which means they SHOULD respect the source material. Not piss on Doom's character. A great comic book adaptation is something that would respect and retain the original source material, and yet gives it something new and refreshing. Here, something new should mean a NEW adventure, not a complete revamp of their character and origin (especially in Doom's case).

The thing here is that Doom is SUCH a great character that he doesn't need many changes. That's why i'm furious. Sure, there's no need to incorporate EVERYTHING, but he sure as **** needs most of his character's main features and most of his original origin.

[Ktulu]

Do you enjoy *****ing all day?

Adaptation:
1.
1. The act or process of adapting.
2. The state of being adapted.
2.
1. Something, such as a device or mechanism, that is changed or changes so as to become suitable to a new or special application or situation.
2. A composition that has been recast into a new form: The play is an adaptation of a short novel.
3. Biology. An alteration or adjustment in structure or habits, often hereditary, by which a species or individual improves its condition in relationship to its environment.
4. Physiology. The responsive adjustment of a sense organ, such as the eye, to varying conditions, such as light intensity.
5. Change in behavior of a person or group in response to new or modified surroundings.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Do you enjoy *****ing all day?

Adaptation:

Oh, so, adaptation means changing the character's features, attitudes and origins ? Well, then, it seems Raimi didn't understand this very concept with his spider-man movies. Shame on him. He should have altered the source material far more. Oh well.

Btw, adapting something DOESN'T MEAN you have to change the original material, especially if it's as great as Doom's character. Or, are you saying Doom's character is not good enough to be brought on screen. My god, Blasphemy ! :eek:

If the new creator has no respect and wants to make a complete revamp of the source material, then he should take "other" characters. Why call him Doom if he's Lex Luthor with Colossus' powers ?

Edit: Btw, yes, I do enjoy ****ing all the day. :cool:

Second edit: " Something, such as a device or mechanism, that is changed or changes so as to become suitable to a new or special application or situation."
See, that's your flaw right there. It's already suitable for application. Comic book is a visual form. It seems to me you are simply saying that the Doom from the comic is not "worthy" enough to be well portrayed in the movies. Not much of a fan, are you ?
I mean, if you find Doom to not be a great enough villain to be faithfully adapted to the screen, then it seems you don't care much about the Doom from the comics. I do. Many of us do. And we want the Doom we all love to be portrayed on screen. Not a LARGELY altered one.

Third edit:

"Originally Posted by Ktulu
Your ideas are all well and good, to be sure, but this is an adaptation, not a word-for-word recreation.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: STOP EXPECTING THE COMICS."

Why should we ****ing stop to expect the comics ??? It's a movie adapted from a COMIC! We sure as hell should expect something AT LEAST close to the comics.

[Ktulu]

You're expecting a goddamn recreation. You'll never be satisfied.


So just stop.

[TheSaintofKillers]

You're expecting a goddamn recreation. You'll never be satisfied.


So just stop.

No, i'm wishing for something close. Not something ENTIRELY NEW. Which, it seems, you would be satisfied with. I've never ask, not ONCE, to have a 100% faithful adaptation of Doom. But something largely faithful ? Hell yes!

Now, ask yourself this (I know you ain't much of a Doom fan, but whatever, just try to envision you were one for a second here): wouldn't you prefer to have a great AND faithful Doom on screen rather than a "maybe" great but not faithful Doom ?

I mean, by all that is Holy, if there's an ounce of Doom fan in you, you will answer the second one.

Edit: Why am I even bothering ? :(

[Ktulu]

You're *****ing about something you haven't even seen yet. While I, on the other hand, am taking the route of holding judgment until I see the final product.

PMSing on a forum all day won't get you anywhere. And just because I don't agree with your fanboyism, doesn't mean that I am not a fan.

[Captain Walrus]

Oh, so, adaptation means changing the character's features, attitudes and origins ? Well, then, it seems Raimi didn't understand this very concept with his spider-man movies. Shame on him. He should have altered the source material far more. Oh well.Ah, but Spiderman worked well. Look at the X-Men movies, many characters were revamped. WOLVERINE QUOTE: "What the hell is a sabertooth?"

If the new creator has no respect and wants to make a complete revamp of the source material, then he should take "other" characters. Why call him Doom if he's Lex Luthor with Colossus' powers ?Because he's NOT Lex Luthor with Colossus' powers.

See, that's your flaw right there. It's already suitable for application. Comic book is a visual form. It seems to me you are simply saying that the Doom from the comic is not "worthy" enough to be well portrayed in the movies. Not much of a fan, are you ?
I mean, if you find Doom to not be a great enough villain to be faithfully adapted to the screen, then it seems you don't care much about the Doom from the comics. I do. Many of us do. And we want the Doom we all love to be portrayed on screen. Not a LARGELY altered one.

Why should we ****ing stop to expect the comics ??? It's a movie adapted from a COMIC! We sure as hell should expect something AT LEAST close to the comics.ARE YOU DAFT?! The printed page does not always translate well into movie action. Like in X-Men, they toned it down to make it MORE REALISTIC. Just because they change the orgins doesn't mean that you are not getting the same Doom we all know and love. The producers want a broad audience, not just die hard FF fans.

[TheSaintofKillers]

You're *****ing about something you haven't even seen yet. While I, on the other hand, am taking the route of holding judgment until I see the final product.

PMSing on a forum all day won't get you anywhere. And just because I don't agree with your fanboyism, doesn't mean that I am not a fan.

And now it seems you are changing the subject which we were discussing. :rolleyes:

I don't even know where to begin to comment on what you just said, especially since it has nothing to do with what we where discussing...

[Herr Logan]

Yeah, there's absolutely no reason why a more or less complete version of Doom's important history can't be told in a short amount of time.

[Captain Walrus]

Now, ask yourself this (I know you ain't much of a Doom fan, but whatever, just try to envision you were one for a second here): wouldn't you prefer to have a great AND faithful Doom on screen rather than a "maybe" great but not faithful Doom ?How can you be so sure that a faithful Doom will be a great one?

[TheSaintofKillers]

Ah, but Spiderman worked well. Look at the X-Men movies, many characters were revamped. WOLVERINE QUOTE: "What the hell is a sabertooth?"

Because he's NOT Lex Luthor with Colossus' powers.

ARE YOU DAFT?! The printed page does not always translate well into movie action. Like in X-Men, they toned it down to make it MORE REALISTIC. Just because they change the orgins doesn't mean that you are not getting the same Doom we all know and love. The producers want a broad audience, not just die hard FF fans.

Um, It seems to me you don't care much about Doom's original origins. Spider-man proved you could make a faithful AND good comic book adaptation. I thought it was common sense ? :confused:

Whatever, continue to think that Doom's character is not great enough to be faithfully adapted on screen. I do think he is that great. You don't.

[Ktulu]

And now it seems you are changing the subject which we were discussing. :rolleyes:

I don't even know where to begin to comment on what you just said, especially since it has nothing to do with what we where discussing...

You attacked me, I gave the reasons for my thinking. Seems like it has a lot to do with what we're discussing....

[TheSaintofKillers]

How can you be so sure that a faithful Doom will be a great one?

Because he is ALREADY a great character ? :confused:

Read some comics. Try to read Secret wars, Warren Ellis' Doom 2099 run (Doom 2099 #26-39), Chuck Dixon's first Doom mini serie, and Mark Waid's Unthinkable and Authoritive Action.

And then, after having read all of those above, you might "get" why he's a great character. ;)

[Ktulu]

ALSO- this movie is called FANTASTIC FOUR. Not DOCTOR DOOM guest staring the Fantastic Four.

The way I see it, you want this movie to be all about Doom.

[TheSaintofKillers]

You attacked me, I gave the reasons for my thinking. Seems like it has a lot to do with what we're discussing....

A) you attacked me first. ;)
B) The reasons for your thinking has nothing to do with our argument. We were arguing about how a faithful adaptation can be a great thing. And then you responded by saying you are holding judgements on Doom's character before you see the movie. What did it have to do with our previous argument ???

[TheSaintofKillers]

ALSO- this movie is called FANTASTIC FOUR. Not DOCTOR DOOM guest staring the Fantastic Four.

The way I see it, you want this movie to be all about Doom.

Um, yes. And Fantastic four comic books are still call Fantastic Four, not Doom. Doesn't stop them from featuring faithful versions of doom. :confused:

[Captain Walrus]

Because he is ALREADY a great character ? :confused:

Read some comics. Try to read Secret wars, Warren Ellis' Doom 2099 run (Doom 2099 #26-39), Chuck Dixon's first Doom mini serie, and Mark Waid's Unthinkable and Authoritive Action.

And then, after having read all of those above, you might "get" why he's a great character. ;)HE IS A GREAT CHARACTER, NO DOUBT! However, you must first translate comic to movie. And 39 years, 364 days, and 22 hours of his history will be lost. Therefore they simplify it into something a mainstream audience, NOT COMIC FANS LIKE US, can understand and enjoy.

[TheSaintofKillers]

HE IS A GREAT CHARACTER, NO DOUBT! However, you must first translate comic to movie. And 39 years, 364 days, and 22 hours of his history will be lost. Therefore they simplify it into something a mainstream audience, NOT COMIC FANS LIKE US, can understand and enjoy.

Um, if you ONLY read ONE Doom comic (let's say, Unthinkable), Doom's history is "condensed" for a newer audience. People who discovered Doom in those comics sure didn't need much more to like him. Why would the regular viewers be any different ? Are they more stupid than comic book readers ???

[Captain Walrus]

Um, yes. And Fantastic four comic books are still call Fantastic Four, not Doom. Doesn't stop them from featuring faithful versions of doom. :confused:Faithful?! Faithful TO WHAT? The comics are the original source of his history, how can they NOT be faithful?!

[TheSaintofKillers]

Faithful?! Faithful TO WHAT? The comics are the original source of his history, how can they NOT be faithful?!

Um, by altering his origin ? By making some sort of new "Spider-man: chapter one" ? Believe me, if they wanted, they could mess with these characters. ;)

My point was that NEWER comic book (which are AS MUCH for newer reader than they are for older one) are faithful to the OLDER comic book. What's so hard to understand here ?

[TheSaintofKillers]

What's with all of those "anti-original and faithful Doom" people ? Why would ANY fans of Doom NOT want Fox to make a more faithful adaptation ?

I mean, I can understand people being optimist about a movie, but prefering that Fox make multiple changes to an ALREADY great character such as Doom ? Somebody pinch me.

[Captain Walrus]

Um, by altering his origin ? By making some sort of new "Spider-man: chapter one" ? Believe me, if they wanted, they could mess with these characters. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

My point was that NEWER comic book (which are AS MUCH for newer reader than they are for older one) are faithful to the OLDER comic book. What's so hard to understand here ?Okay, I understand what you mean. (For once :p )

But still, film is different from the printed page. That's Film 101. They test these things on screeners. They don't just change the story for the hell of it.

[Ktulu]

What's so hard to understand here ?

Your grammar.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Your grammar.

How rude. :mad:

[Ktulu]

I know.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Okay, I understand what you mean. (For once :p )

But still, film is different from the printed page. That's Film 101. They test these things on screeners. They don't just change the story for the hell of it.

But the thing with "tests", is that none of them are perfect. Someone might test something (like Doom's costume, let's say), and botch it. Someone else might try the same thing, and come up with a far greater result. If you can't adapt Doom in a fairly faithful way (and in a great way), then just pass the torch to someone who will be able to. :cool:

[TheSaintofKillers]

I know.

Even meaner! :mad:

[Captain Walrus]

But the thing with "tests", is that none of them are perfect. Someone might test something (like Doom's costume, let's say), and botch it. Someone else might try the same thing, and come up with a far greater result.Well, they have yet to perfect a better way of doing it.

[Dissonance]

What's with all of those "anti-original and faithful Doom" people ? Why would ANY fans of Doom NOT want Fox to make a faithful adaptation ?

I mean, I can understand people being optimist about a movie, but prefering that Fox make multiple changes to an ALREADY great character such as Doom ? Somebody pinch me.

Nobody here is preferring a less-faithful Doom to a more-faithful one. I know I'd take a Doom that was comic-faithful anyday of the week. I admit, I wasn't happy when I heard about the changes either. Anyone who knows me knows that I love the comic and I love the comic's (if not COMICS') greatest villain. What we are trying to do is take into account the changes they have made to Doom and justify them rationally. Am I saying we're supposed to like these changes? No. Some of us are just trying to make sense of them.

The way I see it, they aren't ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the core aspects of Doom's character by making him into a CEO. Your average Joe American views the corporate world as power-hungry and villainous. Hell, the guy is so vain that he builds a gigantic statue dedicated to HIMSELF right in front of his own building. Maybe you see it as a complete and utter rape of the soul of Victor von Doom, but I don't.

If, by your logic, that makes me a bad Doom fan, then so be it.

[raizok]

I agree with the nutballs here who are lobbying for a more faithful Doom. I don't understand why people are willing to accept so many changes to their characters. If Ang Lee announced that the Hulk would be yellow and that he crashed to Earth inside a metorite and was then adopted by a couple of farmers, I'll expect to see people defending the changes.

There's only so much revisionism comic-fans are willing to put up with before they start screaming foul. FF4 has crossed the line, not just with Doom, but with a hell of lot of other changes that are completely unnecessary. I don't expect a comic-perfect FF4 and Doom, but I do expect a moderate amount of respect for the source material, of which I see very little (edit) so far.

[Kmack]

Question, have you saw the film version of Doom?

[Herr Logan]

Well, they have yet to perfect a better way of doing it.

They simply choose not to do so. You can't really believe that it's impossible to adapt a faithful character, can you? That would be unforgivably ignorant and gullible. These people are concerned with making the most money and appealing to the broadest audience. That does not mean for one second that they actually know what they're doing. It's rarely a mistake to underestimate the intelligence of the masses, but good screenwriting and competent designs can appeal to a broad audience as well as hardcore fans if people have the balls. So far, every Marvel movie other than maybe "Blade" and "The Punisher" has been made in a cowardly fashion. People don't want to risk getting the story right, because they assume the audience won't accept that. This is why some of the greatest television shows ever were prematurely cancelled or watered down. Executives assume that quality = bad business. Folowo that way of thinking if you want. It only makes you sa weakling and an annoyance to those that value imagination over shallow complacence.

[TheSumOfGod]

Blackstream sound a little pervvy to me, no offense. :) Blackmourne, change it to that. Dude, I'm gonna make a comic with the villian named that.

WTF?! My actual real family name is Blackstream, dude. It used to be Douglas, several generations ago back when our ancestors were still living in Scotland, but when they immigrated here in the 19th century, they translated it to Blackstream for some unknown reason (Douglas is gaelic for "black stream"). My father named me Jacobus in my grandfather's memory, and so my name on my birth certificate is Jacobus Blackstream. Everyone calls me Jake or Jacob, though. But you gotta admit that Jacobus Blackstream would be a badass supervillain name.

[Herr Logan]

WTF?! My actual real family name is Blackstream, dude. It used to be Douglas, several generations ago back when our ancestors were still living in Scotland, but when they immigrated here in the 19th century, they translated it to Blackstream for some unknown reason (Douglas is gaelic for "black stream"). My father named me Jacobus in my grandfather's memory, and so my name on my birth certificate is Jacobus Blackstream. Everyone calls me Jake or Jacob, though. But you gotta admit that Jacobus Blackstream would be a badass supervillain name.

Hell yes, it would.

Of course, Jacobus Blackmourne would also be a badass supervillain name. :doom:

[TheSumOfGod]

Jacobus Blackstream laughs at your childish comment, Herr Logan, you infidel dog. "Blackmourne"? Blackmourne would be as idiotic a supervillain name as Victor VAN DAMME! I shall not spare you when the time of the great purification comes.

[Ronny Shade]

Jim Lee's Heros Reborn Saga is a perfect example of how to tell Victor's backstory in condensed form.

[Herr Logan]

Jacobus Blackstream laughs at your childish comment, Herr Logan, you infidel dog. "Blackmourne"? Blackmourne would be as idiotic a supervillain name as Victor VAN DAMME! I shall not spare you when the time of the great purification comes.

:eek:

Forgive me, Lord Blackstream. I meant no disrespect. :(

[Docker2.0]

Will Doom be a sorceror or will his mom even be mentioned?

[TheSaintofKillers]

Will Doom be a sorceror or will his mom even be mentioned?

We don't know yet, but the signs are against it. I mean, it wouldn't be impossible for Fox to take a complete U-Turn and make Doom much more faithful, include magic, etc.

But don't get your hopes to high, it's hollywood we are talking about. ;)

[Cool_Jerk]

Comic books CAN translate to movies -- literally, if need be -- if you've got enough creativity, passion and vision.

I give you "Sin City" as the example. Granted, it's the exception to the rule... but nonetheless it's there.

I don't think anyone expects (or maybe even wants) a scene-for-scene reconstruction of FF 5, Annual 2, 39-40, 57-60, 84-87, 196-200, 236, 258-260 etc.... but it can be done.

While this is the "Fantastic Four" and not 'Doom," I'm disappointed that FOX can't give Doom a little bit more thought (and respect for the source material) than they appear to have.

The movies were called "X-Men" and "X2" and not "Magneto," but Magneto had plenty of screen time and the character was pretty faithful to the source material. They said, "well... what do we know about Magneto? LET'S CHECK THE SOURCE MATERIAL, FOLKS! Charismatic old guy with white hair, check. Long history with Prof. X, check. Powerful mutant -- master of magnetism, check. Dresses in red and purple and has a Spartan-soldieresque helmet, check. Leader not a follower, check. Motivations stem from racial persecution as a child, check." They didn't make him a (lowly) human, or part tentacle monster, or a 16-year-old, or a woman, or a subterranean hermit with bug eyes, or a cyborg. And his motivations certainly didn't come from being a jilted lover of Jean Grey.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Well, they have yet to perfect a better way of doing it.

And they had yet to find a perfect way to make spidey's costume before the first Sony movie.
I'm sure that if they tried better, they could be able to make a great looking Doom that is faithful. ;)

[Herr Logan]

If this were actually a faithful story that deserved filming, it would be good if Von Doom were portrayed as a Dracula-type figure with regard to his behavior once taking control of Latveria. The sorcery thing could be mentioned first as a rumor, just like it was rumored in Walachia that Vlad Dracula dipped his bread in blood instead of wine. The character Dr. Doom is very similar to Dracula in that he is brilliant, courageous, obsessed with order and justice and will horribly punish anyone who steps out of line in his land.

[TheSumOfGod]

:eek:

Forgive me, Lord Blackstream. I meant no disrespect. :(

GET ON YOUR KNEES... ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

The way I see it, they aren't ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the core aspects of Doom's character by making him into a CEO. Your average Joe American views the corporate world as power-hungry and villainous. Hell, the guy is so vain that he builds a gigantic statue dedicated to HIMSELF right in front of his own building. Maybe you see it as a complete and utter rape of the soul of Victor von Doom, but I don't.


You mean, going from armored genius who is King of a small, yet powerful, country (who thinks himself above EVERYONE) to a bussinessman who's in love with Sue and jealous of Reed for stealing his girlfriend and who has organic steel skin instead of being only scared to the head is NOT destroying the character ? What does it take for you ? :p

Yes, I do admit it's not "ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the core aspects of Doom's character" (if it was an old woman called Victress Van Dammne who could shoot fireball through her ass, then yes, by God, it would be absolutely destroying his core character. Then again, i'm having this feeling that if THAT were to happen, some of you might still defend it), but it sure isn't that far away. ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

If this were actually a faithful story that deserved filming, it would be good if Von Doom were portrayed as a Dracula-type figure with regard to his behavior once taking control of Latveria. The sorcery thing could be mentioned first as a rumor, just like it was rumored in Walachia that Vlad Dracula dipped his bread in blood instead of wine. The character Dr. Doom is very similar to Dracula in that he is brilliant, courageous, obsessed with order and justice and will horribly punish anyone who steps out of line in his land.

I've always though the same thing. Both were just tyrant. I'd love for Doom to be threated with the same quality Coppola threated Dracula.

Just imagine a theme simular to "the Beginning" theme in Coppola's Dracula used for Doom's entrance and terrifying origin.

[Kelly]

I think the core of Doom is still there.....but then again.....I am not as up on Doom as others here......as I said in the other thread.....in order to pull all of Doom's life into this movie...he needs his own movie.......I'm just happy that the core of the FF is strong with family......thats my personal love for this comic.....but for those of you that love Doom......*fist up* keep fightin the fight...... ;)

[TheSumOfGod]

I've always though the same thing. Both were just tyrant. I'd love for Doom to be threated with the same quality Coppola threated Dracula.

Just imagine a theme simular to "the Beginning" theme in Coppola's Dracula used for Doom's entrance and terrifying origin.

I absolutely love that in ULTIMATE FF, when Victor is ten years old, his father tells him that he and his family are direct descendants of Vlad Tepes Dracula, 15th century Prince of Wallochia. "But always remember, my son: yours is the blood of Vlad Dracula. Mythic power and the royal prerogative. Today, your childhood is over. Today, you begin the labor of becoming worthy of your own blood." :D

[TheSaintofKillers]

I absolutely love that in ULTIMATE FF, when Victor is ten years old, his father tells him that he and his family are direct descendants of Vlad Tepes Dracula, 15th century Prince of Wallochia. "But always remember, my son: yours is the blood of Vlad Dracula. Mythic power and the royal prerogative. Today, your childhood is over. Today, you begin the labor of becoming worthy of your own blood." :D

Now THAT kicked ass! Warren Ellis is one of the best Doom writer (just read his run on Doom 2099, imo, it's pretty much the best Doom run of all time). Making ties with Dracula sent me chills when I first read it.

If it wasn't for his goat legs, and the fact he is so young and not yet king (but he is the rightful heir, so who knows), I might have love Fox's treatment of Doom more if they had opted for his Ultimate version.

[TheSaintofKillers]

I think the core of Doom is still there.....but then again.....I am not as up on Doom as others here......as I said in the other thread.....in order to pull all of Doom's life into this movie...he needs his own movie.......I'm just happy that the core of the FF is strong with family......thats my personal love for this comic.....but for those of you that love Doom......*fist up* keep fightin the fight...... ;)

I too am quite happy with the way they are threating the FF. That's my problem. I know I will probably love the FF aspect in the film, yet, there's a lot of chances i'll hate their treatment of Doom.

How great of a movie would we be in if both Doom and the FF would be threated well ? :eek:

[Cool_Jerk]

To respectfully disagree, Albafan, all they'd need is about 5-7 minutes before the opening titles to establish the Dr. Doom from the comics (see post #129). An average or sub-average writer and/or director might need a whole movie to explain Doom, but a creative one (i.e. not hammered into a typical Hollywood popcorn action-flick mindset) could pull it off easily.

Along with "Bram Stoker's Dracula," another good example of compressed and engaging storytelling would be the first 5 minutes of "Raising Arizona." All the backstory anyone needs for H.I. and Ed, their histories, how they met and why they'd steal a baby is right there before the yodeling begins.

[TheSaintofKillers]

To respectfully disagree, Albafan, all they'd need is about 5-7 minutes before the opening titles to establish the Dr. Doom from the comics (see post #129). An average or sub-average writer and/or director might need a whole movie to explain Doom, but a creative one (i.e. not hammered into a typical Hollywood popcorn action-flick mindset) could pull it off easily.

Along with "Bram Stoker's Dracula," another good example of compressed and engaging storytelling would be the first 5 minutes of "Raising Arizona." All the backstory anyone needs for H.I. and Ed, their histories, how they met and why they'd steal a baby is right there before the yodeling begins.

OR, just like Vader in A new hope, they could skip it for now, to give him some mysteries. Then, later on, they might explain some of his origins, and so on.

To make a faithful Doom that doesn't require an whole movie, they have more than one option. Which is why the road they have opted for makes even less sense.

[TheSumOfGod]

Now THAT kicked ass! Warren Ellis is one of the best Doom writer (just read his run on Doom 2099, imo, it's pretty much the best Doom run of all time). Making ties with Dracula sent me chills when I first read it.

If it wasn't for his goat legs, and the fact he is so young and not yet king (but he is the rightful heir, so who knows), I might have love Fox's treatment of Doom more if they had opted for his Ultimate version.

I would have wanted for the movie to be very similar to the ULTIMATE FF storyline (the ULTIMATE titles being nothing more than comic book adaptations of how the Marvel movies should have been made anyway), but instead of getting transformed into a LIVING ARMOR of ORGANIC STEEL, Victor VON DOOM should have been transported to the remains of Vlad Tepes Dracula's castle in Wallochia, which would now be situated in a region of Romania known as LATVERIA. He would have remained normal, but a piece of flying debris would have hit his face and scarred him an instant before his teleportation. And guess what he would have found inside of Dracula's castle, now having become the "LATVERIAN NATIONAL HISTORY MUSEUM"? Dracula's green cloak and steel armor, of course! :D

S**t, if an average (okay, admittedly slightly ABOVE average) geek like me can come up with this stuff in less than five minutes for free, why can't the morrons at Fox?

[TheSaintofKillers]

I would have wanted for the movie to be very similar to the ULTIMATE FF storyline (the ULTIMATE titles being nothing more than comic book adaptations of how the Marvel movies should have been made anyway), but instead of getting transformed into a LIVING ARMOR of ORGANIC STEEL, Victor VON DOOM should have been transported to the remains of Vlad Tepes Dracula's castle in Wallochia, which would now be situated in a region of Romania known as LATVERIA. He would have remained normal, but a piece of flying debris would have hit his face and scarred him an instant before his teleportation. And guess what he would have found inside of Dracula's castle, now having become the "LATVERIAN NATIONAL HISTORY MUSEUM"? Dracula's green cloak and steel armor, of course! :D

S**t, if an average (okay, admittedly slightly ABOVE average) geek like me can come up with this stuff in less than five minutes for free, why can't the morrons at Fox?

Because they are morons ?

Edit: i like your idea. Actually, that's the kind of "twist" on Doom's origin which would have sent me goosebumps. (and in a good way ;))

[snazzy J]

Jeez, what happened here? Last time I looked we were three pages back polishing up my plot outline.

[homestarrunner]

Here is an idea: im probally gonna get flamed for it, but since this a place to express opinons i might as well do it. Doom being a bussiness man could work, like i said in a previous post an expierement could wrong leaving him ruined and all he knew in life worked so hard to build was gone. How would you feel if u left for america and told your famly who comes from power( they could still leave that in there) that u falied? that you were a disgrace to their good name. Someone on the boards sig line from fight club fits the senario like glove to a hand, ONLY AFTER WE LOST EVERYTHING, ARE WE FREE TO DO ANYTHING. hence doom sets out on a quest for power, slowly building himself into a power hungry dictator again it's just an idea but by the end of the film this could be established. my 2 cents:doom:

[TheSaintofKillers]

Here is an idea: im probally gonna get flamed for it, but since this a place to express opinons i might as well do it. Doom being a bussiness man could work, like i said in a previous post an expierement could wrong leaving him ruined and all he knew in life worked so hard to build was gone. How would you feel if u left for america and told your famly who comes from power( they could still leave that in there) that u falied? that you were a disgrace to their good name. Someone on the boards sig line from fight club fits the senario like glove to a hand, ONLY AFTER WE LOST EVERYTHING, ARE WE FREE TO DO ANYTHING. hence doom sets out on a quest for power, slowly building himself into a power hungry dictator again it's just an idea but by the end of the film this could be established. my 2 cents:doom:

I doubt many people will complain if by the end of the movie the result of Doom's new origin result in the same Doom we all know and love. Let's hope they know what they are doing,
but I doubt it. :down

Imo, an origin does not necessarily make a character. Not at all. It is how he is portrayed before and after his "origin" that makes who he is.
Unfortunately, if Fox haven't made much changes since either Frost's script or the script Moriarity read, I doubt we will even get that. Let's hope for the best, though.

[snazzy J]

You know, saint, I've been thinking, and it seems to me that using Doom's origin from the comics (ie: accident in college with Reed and Ben, mysterious reappearance) wouldn't really work in a movie. You give Darth Vader as an example, but that only worked so well because he had a deep connection with Luke. A grand revealing of the fact that Doom went to college with Reed and Ben doesn't really stack up to "I am your father." It's just not interesting enough to warrant so much secrecy and build-up. Like spiderwyze said earlier, a good villian has to tie into the hero's story, and that's why I really don't mind Doom's accident being combined with the one that gives the Four their powers. His past with Reed and Ben just doesn't tie him in all that well. I think that, as long as Latveria remains his first priority, followed by the Four, combining their origins couldn't hurt (that's why I've been pushing my storyline). Now you guys also mentioned a Dracula-type origin, but, since I still haven't seen that, I can't really decide if that would work or not, so I may decide to correct myself later. As of now, though, I think that bringing in Doom out of nowhere just wouldn't work all that well, cinematically.

[homestarrunner]

I doubt many people will complain if by the end of the movie the result of Doom's new origin result in the same Doom we all know and love. Let's hope they know what they are doing,
but I doubt it. :down

Imo, an origin does not necessarily make a character. Not at all. It is how he is portrayed before and after his "origin" that makes who he is.
Unfortunately, if Fox haven't made much changes since either Frost's script or the script Moriarity read, I doubt we will even get that. Let's hope for the best, though.
i kind of doubt too.thats how i would like it to happen, but we'll just have to wait and see i do agree with snazzy j about making him more interesting.

[TheSaintofKillers]

You know, saint, I've been thinking, and it seems to me that using Doom's origin from the comics (ie: accident in college with Reed and Ben, mysterious reappearance) wouldn't really work in a movie. You give Darth Vader as an example, but that only worked so well because he had a deep connection with Luke. A grand revealing of the fact that Doom went to college with Reed and Ben doesn't really stack up to "I am your father." It's just not interesting enough to warrant so much secrecy and build-up. Like spiderwyze said earlier, a good villian has to tie into the hero's story, and that's why I really don't mind Doom's accident being combined with the one that gives the Four their powers. His past with Reed and Ben just doesn't tie him in all that well. I think that, as long as Latveria remains his first priority, followed by the Four, combining their origins couldn't hurt (that's why I've been pushing my storyline). Now you guys also mentioned a Dracula-type origin, but, since I still haven't seen that, I can't really decide if that would work or not, so I may decide to correct myself later. As of now, though, I think that bringing in Doom out of nowhere just wouldn't work all that well, cinematically.

Read the Ultimate FF Doom storyarc by Warren Ellis. It's awesome, believe me. ;) (then again, just wait for the last issue to be out, then read it all in one shot :up: )
In it, Ellis and co. combined Doom's origin with the FF. I liked it. Why ? Because he was still pretty much the same Victor Von Doom (except here, he was stupidly named Van Damne, but whatever) we all know. Why ? Because his "character" was still the same. If Fox (by altering Frost's script) can alter his character to the point were he IS the Von Doom we all love to hate, then yes, no prob.

Combining his origin with the FF is not such a bad idea (like I said, I like what they did in UFF), but making Von Doom a jealous businessman boyfriend IS. At least, it seems with those new photos that Victor won a trophy because of his intellect. Which was one of my major gripe with Frost's script: he wasn't smart enough! Doom needs to be the equal (if not more) of Reed, intellect-wise.

Btw, you mention that the revelation of Doom already knowing Ben and Reed wouldn't shock the viewers of today. Now, why would they have to make that a revelation ? Just have the intro show us THAT relationship. The revelation might be that Dr. Doom IS that young student from the intro.

Edit: What I fear about Victor's character is if his ONLY goal in the first movie is to punish Reed for what he did to him, with nearly NO references to Latveria or his world conquest goal. I mean, if they opt for a businessman Doom who (like in the Frost script) doesn't care much about his native home, and only wants to become more famous and richer, and that after his "accident" all he wants in life is to have revenge on Richard, then boo. :down

BUT, if the reason why he is so rich and powerful is because he needs that money and those ressources to take either back Latveria or conquer the world (it's Doom we are talking about here, not your average villain who robs banks ;)), then hell yes, i'm all up for it. :cool:

Making Doom a villain who only wants to kill Richard and nothing else throws the character back 60 years ago. We have gone a long way from that. Byrne and many others have made Doom an even more interesting "character" (he was already a great villain before, though) then he was when he was first created. I'm hoping Fox and co. take that into consideration.

Second edit:
One thing's for sure, the Victor we all know woudn't lose 20 years of his life by doing nothing. The scar didn't make Doom who he was. He was already Von Doom before the accident in the comics. In Frost's script, he is NOT Doom, at least, not until his accident. It should be show that he is already the man he will become later on in the movie (world conquest, Latveria, huge ego, etc). The scar sure as hell wasn't the only reason that made who Doom is. Frost's script seems to indicate so.

Then again, it's been said the version of Doom by Frost has been altered. The question is how much ?

[Nero_Ordin]

doom could be the same if they did this. have his family exiled and as they are leaving they kill his parents. then he goes to america becomes a brillant scientist who is working for someone important. then he helps reed build the shield for the shuttle but at the same time as the accident an invention he was working on explodes.

reed told him that it wasn't going to work but didn't listen.have him angry at the ff because of reed and he gets burned but still gets a power. he goes back to latervia and reclaim the power his family once had.

[TheSaintofKillers]

doom could be the same if they did this. have his family exiled and as they are leaving they kill his parents. then he goes to america becomes a brillant scientist who is working for someone important. then he helps reed build the shield for the shuttle but at the same time as the accident an invention he was working on explodes.

reed told him that it wasn't going to work but didn't listen.have him angry at the ff because of reed and he gets burned but still gets a power. he goes back to latervia and reclaim the power his family once had.

Let's take for granted all that Fox are altering. Threshold has said more than once that Victor will probably have a royal Latverian past, and that he had to flee to america to hide.

Now, the later script that Moriarity read altered one thing out of Frost's first script that could help make one hell of a great difference: Doom didn't come back the same way to earth that the FF did. I like that. Keep that part at least if you are still going this way, Fox. Like in Ultimate FF, we don't know what Victor's been up to since the accident. It's a great mystery, and it help builds the tension.

Now, Doom will also probably have organic steel skin. Ellis proved it could be rather cool power-wise, and Immonen proved to me it could also look awesome. Even so, ditching Doom's armor would be like removing the armor of Iron Man... It's an integral part of him. Maybe a mix of the two ? But then, why put organic steel skin if they would mix them ? I'm still not sure how I will truly react to the skin change.
And yes, him falling in Europe, near Latveria would be a great idea. A wounded and frustrated Doom might take back what is rightfully his (latveria), and make, with his new army and new weapons, America and Richard pay.

But, if they go the road of Doom shooting lightning and ONLY wanting to make Richard pay because he lost his girlfriend, his face and his humanity, with no other goals whatsoever would be lame, imo.

Then again, didn't they hire one of the writer of Catwoman to alter the FF script ? Talk about a revolting developpment.

[Nero_Ordin]

but i meant if doom was on earth when the ff have their accident and doom has his on earth at the same time.

[snazzy J]

Read the Ultimate FF Doom storyarc by Warren Ellis. It's awesome, believe me. ;) (then again, just wait for the last issue to be out, then read it all in one shot :up: )
In it, Ellis and co. combined Doom's origin with the FF. I liked it. Why ? Because he was still pretty much the same Victor Von Doom (except here, he was stupidly named Van Damne, but whatever) we all know. Why ? Because his "character" was still the same. If Fox (by altering Frost's script) can alter his character to the point were he IS the Von Doom we all love to hate, then yes, no prob.

Combining his origin with the FF is not such a bad idea (like I said, I like what they did in UFF), but making Von Doom a jealous businessman boyfriend IS. At least, it seems with those new photos that Victor won a trophy because of his intellect. Which was one of my major gripe with Frost's script: he wasn't smart enough! Doom needs to be the equal (if not more) of Reed, intellect-wise.

Btw, you mention that the revelation of Doom already knowing Ben and Reed wouldn't shock the viewers of today. Now, why would they have to make that a revelation ? Just have the intro show us THAT relationship. The revelation might be that Dr. Doom IS that young student from the intro.

Edit: What I fear about Victor's character is if his ONLY goal in the first movie is to punish Reed for what he did to him, with nearly NO references to Latveria or his world conquest goal. I mean, if they opt for a businessman Doom who (like in the Frost script) doesn't care much about his native home, and only wants to become more famous and richer, and that after his "accident" all he wants in life is to have revenge on Richard, then boo. :down

BUT, if the reason why he is so rich and powerful is because he needs that money and those ressources to take either back Latveria or conquer the world (it's Doom we are talking about here, not your average villain who robs banks ;)), then hell yes, i'm all up for it. :cool:

Making Doom a villain who only wants to kill Richard and nothing else throws the character back 60 years ago. We have gone a long way from that. Byrne and many others have made Doom an even more interesting "character" (he was already a great villain before, though) then he was when he was first created. I'm hoping Fox and co. take that into consideration.

Second edit:
One thing's for sure, the Victor we all know woudn't lose 20 years of his life by doing nothing. The scar didn't make Doom who he was. He was already Von Doom before the accident in the comics. In Frost's script, he is NOT Doom, at least, not until his accident. It should be show that he is already the man he will become later on in the movie (world conquest, Latveria, huge ego, etc). The scar sure as hell wasn't the only reason that made who Doom is. Frost's script seems to indicate so.

Then again, it's been said the version of Doom by Frost has been altered. The question is how much ? We're definitely on the same page here. I don't have a problem with Doom being a part of the accident (as long as he doesn't get powers) and the businessman angle could potentially turn out ok, but the jealous boyfriend crap has got to go. Like I said before, Doom's first priority should always be Latveria, followed by revenge against Reed. The only acceptable reason for him to become a businessman in my eyes is in order to reach his final goal of conquering Latveria (like in my outline ;)).

Also, in regards to the revelation of his identity, it still wouldn't be particularly surprising. If the movie takes the trouble to show the origin and accident of this "mystery man," they're gonna know it's Doom. Why else would they be shown that stuff if it weren't? There just really isn't anything shocking about the relationship between Doom and the Four, it's all pretty straightforward.

Oh, and I'll be sure to check out that UFF arc when the TPB comes out.

[TheSaintofKillers]

We're definitely on the same page here. I don't have a problem with Doom being a part of the accident (as long as he doesn't get powers) and the businessman angle could potentially turn out ok, but the jealous boyfriend crap has got to go. Like I said before, Doom's first priority should always be Latveria, followed by revenge against Reed. The only acceptable reason for him to become a businessman in my eyes is in order to reach his final goal of conquering Latveria (like in my outline ;)).

Also, in regards to the revelation of his identity, it still wouldn't be particularly surprising. If the movie takes the trouble to show the origin and accident of this "mystery man," they're gonna know it's Doom. Why else would they be shown that stuff if it weren't? There just really isn't anything shocking about the relationship between Doom and the Four, it's all pretty straightforward.

Oh, and I'll be sure to check out that UFF arc when the TPB comes out.

If you liked Ellis' portrayal of Doom in Doom 2099 (my favorite Doom run, imo), then yes, be sure to check UFF. ;)

And I really like the idea of Victor having build an empire for one single goal: to take back Latveria and make his enemies pay.

But, in the Frost script, he was rich and famous for the sole purpose of being rich and famous, which was more than lame (and in moriarity's script review, it seems to be quite the same thing). :mad:

[Nero_Ordin]

i too hate the idea of dooms relationship with sue but it work if they had a one night stand and doom would care afterward. that would show true arrogance. and it would drive reed crazy.

[snazzy J]

Just in case anybody has missed any of the evolution of my outline, here it is in it's entirety:Okay, here's a plot outline a worked out just now combining the Frost script, the new script, and Sardaukar's idea:

Doom has been planning for years to take back Latveria and he is finally ready to do it, using his company's resources. To accomplish this, he's going to install a weapon on his pre-existing space station [This part does sound cheesy, but it explains why the launch occurs so quickly and why Doom comes along. If anybody comes up with a less-corny explanation, feel free to share it] and use it to take Latveria by force. The only problem is he needs an excuse to be up there so that no one will suspect anything. Enter Reed with his research mission, and Ben as his pilot. Doom has a history with the two, but realizes this is exactly what he needs for his plan, so they go ahead with the mission, along with Sue and Johnny. The accident occurs ala the Frost drift, except with Doom leaving in the escape pod like in the new script. The only difference is, instead of organic armor, he has been scarred, though we never actually see the scars. When he lands, he covertly returns to his company (Not on a stolen motorcycle!), leaving everyone to believe he has gone missing (or maybe the pod crashes and they think he's dead). He dons his armor, which he had already created to protect himself in his annexation of Latveria, forges his mask to hide his face, and decides to proceed with his plan, albeit with a newfound hatred of Reed, who he blames the accident on (though his scarring is actually his own fault). This all occurs in complete secrecy, no one being aware of his endeavors aside from a handful of scientists/engineers that he murders later on. Meanwhile, all the stuff from Frost's draft with the Four happens, setting up all their characters. Finally, in the third act, Doom carries out his plan and it is up to the Four to stop him. The ending I'm not so sure about, but I think it could involve Doom being defeated, but still getting away. Then, at the very end after Reed proposes to Sue, Doom could be shown something like "Commence preparations for Plan B, " or something, but less cheesy. Thoughts?On Doom's character in general, a few things are a must. In addition to this:In only a few (but gripping) moments throughout the film, Doom is disturbed and vulnerable (and we all know that Doom hates being vulnerable-it only adds to his rage and determination). He is continually plagued by nightmares and visions of a moment from when he was a child, a moment when his entire family was executed before his eyes. He feels ashamed that he, the rightful heir of Latveria, fled in fear while a usurper stole the throne.

Doom is also angry. You see, the usurper (let's respect canon and call him Vladimir) was actually backed and given weapons by the United States and other Western nations. But now Vladimir rules Latveria under an iron fist worse than that of the Von Doom's, but of course Vladimir is still an ally of the West as they continually overlook his crimes against humanity for political/economical reasons (just like China's control of Tibet).

This enrages Doom...and gives him enough of an excuse to really hate the world. That hate serves as proper motivation for him to avenge himself and his dead loved ones upon all the world.

I'd like to see a scene where Sue tries to understand why Victor is so angry and he explains to her his family's tragedy. Hell, if they really want Sue to connect intimately with Victor and make us understand the guy, that's a fine moment to do it in! he should also:

- be a brilliant scientist-turned-businessman, not eurotrash-turned-businessman
- have come to America no earlier than his late teens
- have spent his time between the murder of his family and his arrival in America living in exile with the gypsies of Latveria, and his experiences in black magic could be hinted at
- have a pre-existing relationship with Reed and Ben (disliking them, but not all out hatred yet)
- have forged his company from the ground up through his own hard work and genius alone
- definitely not be going out with Sue
- be scarred and have artificial armor, not organic
- be primarily concerned with Latveria, not the Four (it won't make sense if he all of a sudden takes over Latveria in a sequel if he never cared that much about it in the first place)
- just act like Doom should: cold, vain, willing to do whatever it takes, but also with his own sense of honor, distorted as it may be

If they would do all that, I think it could definitely do Doom justice.That would certainly make sense, and it'd be really cool to see in the movie. The question I have is in what order should all these plot details be revealed, because there should be a mystery at first as to why the events are happening the way they are. I was thinking that his plan would be hinted at and we would know something was going on, but we wouldn't actually find out until near the end. Like, maybe he could disappear for awhile on the space station before the accident. The Four could get suspicious, but then the accident occurs and they forget for the time being. We would see him hit by an explosion during the accident, his escape back to Earth, and his return to his headquarters (not the main building, his secret lair-type place, like his production facility or whatever). We still wouldn't find out his real scheme, but we might hear him say, "The operation will go forward as planned," or something like that to his faithful manservant, Boris. Then, in the third act, we would finally learn exactly what's up as the movie nears it's climax.

Also, it occurs to me that this approach would work best if the movie focused on Doom rather than the Fantastic Four. So there has to be a way to tie Doom's suplot into what the FF are going through. For instance, when Doom finds out what happens to Richards and the rest, how does he react? How does he see them fitting into his scheme? Does he want to rub them out because they're an unknown variable he hadn't planned on? Does he decide to factor them into his scheme and manipulate them like chess pieces? I'm asking because I haven't read the Frost draft (somedays I feel like the only person on this board who hasn't), and I'm genuinely curious as to how Doom ties into the Fantastic Four's storyarc. Just as heroes are judged by villains, so are villains defined by how well they tie into the heroes. Even the best villain in history is going to be awkward in a story that doesn't tie him in well with the direction the heroes are going in. Well he would develop his enourmous hatred for Reed after the whole scarring thing, so I think killing them would be his final goal, but I like your idea of manipulating them first. He could decide to use them as a distraction for the world until he's ready to complete his plot and destroy them in one fell swoop. I don't think we have to worry too much about how he ties into their storyarc, as he is the reason they were able to be there and get their powers in the first place and he will be their first real test as superheroes.

As far as his character arc goes, there's a couple things I'd like to see. First, he'd be furious about his face and that would lead to a consuming hatred of Reed and, by extension, the Four, but revenge wouldn't surpass his first priority: taking control of Latveria (though it would come pretty close). Also, after the accident, his face would always be hidden so that we'd never see his scars, until he reveals himself in the third act. We would finally get a glimpse of the extent of the scarring at the same time as the Four and we would discover that it was actually just a tiny scratch on his cheek. But no sooner than we are shown this, he finally puts on his still-scalding-hot mask, destroying his face.

Also, if you want a copy of the Frost draft, just PM me your email.

Anyway, I happened to like this idea, snazzy, and I think this is a great thread for brainstorming ideas. Even if nothing ever comes of these ideas because the movie does something else, it's still fun to think about.
Yep, it can't hurt to come up with a storyline of our own.And while we're talking about my outline, there are definitely some pretty big flaws in there. One is that it's awfully convenient for Doom to already have his armor already made. That one's not too big, but it seems a bit coincidental. The really big plot error is that, if he's got this big weapon thing up in the sky, why is he only taking Latveria? Wouldn't he want more, like, say, the world? If you can come up with ways to explain around these, I'd love to hear them.For the armor, Doom could be portrayed as a genius of robotics and weapons tech at the beginning of the movie. It therefore wouldn't be a surprise to the audience if he just quickly adapts all that to a personal battlesuit later on.

Doom would be portrayed in the first movie as really just a guy who wants to help his people.

Once he starts his rule in Latveria (in the sequel?), he'll become more power hungry and come to believe that the paradise he has achieved in his country can be brought to the world, only through him.

What I like about a nuclear device plot is that there's no way he could use nukes to take back Latveria if he doesn't want it destroyed. He may have nukes, but he doesn't have the manpower to take Latveria by force, so he's forced to threaten the UN to take it back for him.

That's why even though he fails to take Latveria by force in the first movie, he takes his time and uses stealth and guile to take it maybe in the beginning of the second movie.Now we're really getting somewhere. Regarding the armor, that's good thinking there. It could be established that he's an expert in that field and when the Four arrive on the scene with their powers, he'll realize that he needs a way to balance the scales. I guess it wouldn't be too unrealistic for him to cook up the armor in a relatively short period of time.

Also, that's a pretty good explanation of why he only wants Latveria. As long as it's shown that the only thing he really cares about is the Latverian people and that the world is of no concern to him, it would make sense. His thirst for world domination could come later on down the road, once he's already an established dictator.
Maybe I should start a new thread for this...

[Kmack]

It's just going to be merged, more than likely. ;)

[MutantCircus]

HERE HE IS!!! DOOM!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/doomed.jpg

[Dissonance]

http://img63.exs.cx/img63/9355/doom15.jpg

[MutantCircus]

My Doom PWNS your Doom. My Doom can KNIT!!!

[Dissonance]

My Doom comes complete with MENACING FINGER-POINTING ACTION!

[MutantCircus]

Mine comes with RESPECTABLE LADY *****-SLAPPING ACTION!

[Dissonance]

Mine is REASONABLY PRICED AT $19.99!

[MutantCircus]

Mine is RESPECTABLY PRICED AT $80.00 AN HOUR!

[Dissonance]

DAMN! That is one RESPECTABLE old lady!

[MutantCircus]

Yep, and she doesn't even do blow jobs.

[MutantCircus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/ladydoom1.jpg

[Dissonance]

Aaaaaaaaand it's official: Another 15 years added to my psychotherapy.

Thanks a bunch. :)

[MutantCircus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/ladydoom2.jpg

[MutantCircus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/ladydoom3.jpg

[Dissonance]

http://img20.exs.cx/img20/3461/deargod1.jpg

[MutantCircus]

-20 HP for not using a Doom pic.

+5 HP for it being funny anyway.

[Dissonance]

I aim to please... I think.

[MutantCircus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/ladydoom5.jpg

[Herr Logan]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/mutant_circus/ladydoom5.jpg
You sure as hell are. :o

[Obi-Ron]

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronsuploads/maggiesdist.gif

[C. Lee]

Guys....you are not "discussing" Doom. Please get back on track here.

[Captain Walrus]

You mean, going from armored genius who is King of a small, yet powerful, country (who thinks himself above EVERYONE) to a bussinessman who's in love with Sue and jealous of Reed for stealing his girlfriend and who has organic steel skin instead of being only scared to the head is NOT destroying the character ? What does it take for you ? :p

Yes, I do admit it's not "ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the core aspects of Doom's character" (if it was an old woman called Victress Van Dammne who could shoot fireball through her ass, then yes, by God, it would be absolutely destroying his core character. Then again, i'm having this feeling that if THAT were to happen, some of you might still defend it), but it sure isn't that far away. ;)
That wasn't the point of her post. Let me repost the FIRST paragraph:
Nobody here is preferring a less-faithful Doom to a more-faithful one. I know I'd take a Doom that was comic-faithful anyday of the week. I admit, I wasn't happy when I heard about the changes either. Anyone who knows me knows that I love the comic and I love the comic's (if not COMICS') greatest villain. What we are trying to do is take into account the changes they have made to Doom and justify them rationally. Am I saying we're supposed to like these changes? No. Some of us are just trying to make sense of them.

[TheSaintofKillers]

That wasn't the point of her post. Let me repost the FIRST paragraph:

Um, I didn't respond to her main point because I pretty much agree with it. We don't know yet if it will be a "Victor Von Doom who is a businessman because there is a need to" OR if it will be a "Doom by name only".
And so, I saw no need to respond to what I already agree.

But, if you read her full post:

"Originally Posted by Dissonance
The way I see it, they aren't ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the core aspects of Doom's character by making him into a CEO. Your average Joe American views the corporate world as power-hungry and villainous. Hell, the guy is so vain that he builds a gigantic statue dedicated to HIMSELF right in front of his own building. Maybe you see it as a complete and utter rape of the soul of Victor von Doom, but I don't."

She did say they weren't ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the character. I only responded to that. How ? By saying that (if they go the way of the two scripts we have heard of, I mean) it sure as heck wouldn't be that far away. ;)

[logan_weapon_x]

http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004/271/3/3/GROOVY_by_muskrat85.jpg

[TheSaintofKillers]

It's good of you to let us know. :up:

[logan_weapon_x]

Sure is, i like to do things in person. Just letting you see just how much i appreciate it :D

[Herr Logan]

FFINO vs. DDINO:
...the legendary bastardization crashes back to Earth in 2005.

Rated PG-13 for being a Pretty Ghastly adaptation to which only 13-year-olds and their intellectual equivalents or inferiors don't even attempt to critically analyze.

[Zev]

I'm not sure how the Fantastic Four are FFINO. According to all reports, they're pretty faithful to the source (first man that says 'eyebrow ridge' gets a... a LEAD SALAD!).

As for Dr. DINO, we don't know the extent of the changes. It could be a 'What if Dr. Doom ran a huge business empire?' Or it could be "Dr. Doom in name only." Frankly, as long as he acts and talks like Doom, I'm happy.

And hey, be glad you're at least getting the name 'Von Doom'. That's mucho better then 'Van Damme'.

[Nero_Ordin]

i think that we should know the changes because it would be different if he is business man.

[Rebel_Ace]

I have given some thought to some *LEGITIMATE* changes that would have to be addressed with Doom circa 2004, and they mostly have to do with his facial scaring. (Before anyone jumps down my throat, hear me out)

The "small scar" Doom scenario just doesn't work. Sure, 40 years ago, you could sell the idea, but today, people are so used to routine miracles in plastic and reconstructive surgery, folks wouldn't buy it. Anyone as wealthy or smart as Doom would simply have a small scar repaired, even if it bothered him that he was somehow less than "perfect". (He just damn sure wouldn't go to Micheal Jackson's doctors :p )

Now, just how bad would his face have to be before a reasonable person in the audience would say, "Gack! No plastic surgeon could fix THAT!" :eek: ? In today's world, pretty darn bad.

So, given that the movie is going with the "Doom is exposed to Cosmic Rays" scenario, what might be presented as "organic armor" might instead be more of a sickly, tumorous growth everywhere. (Actually, that would be a more realistic consequence of radiation exposure) We could still get Doom in a home made mask to conceal his hideous appearance. If his new 'skin' does not offer protection (ala the Thing), again, we might get Doom Armor as a result. He can't get his appearance "fixed" cuz the darn stuff keeps growing back.

Perhaps I am being too hopeful, but I think I could get behind this presentation of Doom. I sure do not like the "electric bolt" firing version.

[Captain Walrus]

She did say they weren't ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING the character. I only responded to that. How ? By saying that (if they go the way of the two scripts we have heard of, I mean) it sure as heck wouldn't be that far away. ;)But she's right. We're just trying to make sense of it all. I could see Doom running a corporation. He's the still the same Doom, but in new circumstances. And yes, it is possible that this movie will ruin Doom, however, I'm optimistic. None of the changes so far have ruined his character, they've only ruined his comic origins. Which is tolerable. Not spectacular, but tolerable. They could have done a hell of a lot worse.

[Herr Logan]

I'm not sure how the Fantastic Four are FFINO. According to all reports, they're pretty faithful to the source (first man that says 'eyebrow ridge' gets a... a LEAD SALAD!).

As for Dr. DINO, we don't know the extent of the changes. It could be a 'What if Dr. Doom ran a huge business empire?' Or it could be "Dr. Doom in name only." Frankly, as long as he acts and talks like Doom, I'm happy.

And hey, be glad you're at least getting the name 'Von Doom'. That's mucho better then 'Van Damme'.

I'm not convinced they haven't watered down the Fantastic Four, but I will admit I haven't seen as much evidence for that as I have for Dr. Doom.
They didn't bother even getting the hair color right for Johnny Storm, which seems like a deliberate slap in the face. I know with 95% certainty that right now, a lot of people including you are thinking approximately "that's a pretty small nitpick," but that being the case, consider how easy it would have been to simply do it the way it's supposed to be. They sell hair dye in *****ty convenience stores, so there are absolutely no budget excuses there. At least they got Reed Richards' hair right. Considering giving Reed his temples would be a much bigger issue with focus groups (it'll alienate all the children aged 13-30) than giving a young blond character his blond hair, I have no intention of dismissing this issue as insignificant. These people have certain patterns of behavior, and when they act inconsistently, I'll be there to take notice.
The hair thing isn't even close to as bad as Sue Storm being involved with Victor Von Doom. That's bull***** right there, and they went the cheap route by not having Reed and Sue from the beginning of the story. No doubt it's so we'll actually have to pay attention to the romantic subplot-- the cheapest subplot in every movie of this type.
Though rumors of the Torch actually flying and flaming on are circulating, the official word last I saw was Johnny was going to blaze up his hands and "bend flame." If this is true, that's the second worst thing they've done here, running up after the winner: Dr. DINO

As for Dr. DINO, the faithful name isn't good enough. The character either lives up to his name or he doesn't. I don't thank people for handing me a pile of ***** that they labeled as "flank steak" on the menu.

[Herr Logan]

I have given some thought to some *LEGITIMATE* changes that would have to be addressed with Doom circa 2004, and they mostly have to do with his facial scaring. (Before anyone jumps down my throat, hear me out)

The "small scar" Doom scenario just doesn't work. Sure, 40 years ago, you could sell the idea, but today, people are so used to routine miracles in plastic and reconstructive surgery, folks wouldn't buy it. Anyone as wealthy or smart as Doom would simply have a small scar repaired, even if it bothered him that he was somehow less than "perfect". (He just damn sure wouldn't go to Micheal Jackson's doctors :p )

Now, just how bad would his face have to be before a reasonable person in the audience would say, "Gack! No plastic surgeon could fix THAT!" :eek: ? In today's world, pretty darn bad.

So, given that the movie is going with the "Doom is exposed to Cosmic Rays" scenario, what might be presented as "organic armor" might instead be more of a sickly, tumorous growth everywhere. (Actually, that would be a more realistic consequence of radiation exposure) We could still get Doom in a home made mask to conceal his hideous appearance. If his new 'skin' does not offer protection (ala the Thing), again, we might get Doom Armor as a result. He can't get his appearance "fixed" cuz the darn stuff keeps growing back.

Perhaps I am being too hopeful, but I think I could get behind this presentation of Doom. I sure do not like the "electric bolt" firing version.

You are being too hopeful.

On the other hand, you're being authentically analytical and creative-- qualities that are all too scarce on these boards, much less most entertainment media. :up:

[Cool_Jerk]

You're not alone, Herr_Logan.

It's my utmost hope that someone with some influence at FOX is trolling these boards, taking copious notes. There are some decent salvages here and there for some horrendous gaffes in character portrayal. I'd like to think things can be turned a different course with firm, insistent coaxing from us. Some fixes cost a lot, like rewrites and new footage. Some fixes cost $7.00 in the hair coloring aisle at Walgreen's. I'm sure that no "Hollywood" type wants to create a movie "by committee," and I don't think anyone here wants that to happen, either. But really - there are problems and they range from tiny to colossal.

Everyone wants this movie to be the best it possibly can. That's why we're fans.

[Herr Logan]

Thanks, Cool Jerk.

One thing that really gets me angry is that my favorite franchises have already been brought to the big screen and have two movies out that were disrespectful and mediocre in fundamental ways, so those are already lost causes in terms of quality control. Now they're making more franchises and dead set on screwing those up as well. The flawed parts of these movies are just not good entertainment, regardless of the source material. It's an insult to take something that has been written well and turn it into watered-down crap. It's only people with very limited imaginations and/or a lack of courage and respect that strive to make this happen. Quality entertainment has rarely lasted in a marketable fashion, but at least half the time it's because the product wasn't fully exposed to a wide audience. If they would just create a quality film that hits a wide enough audience, they'd do at least as well any other crappy film in the box office, if not better.

[Captain Walrus]

Thanks, Cool Jerk.

One thing that really gets me angry is that my favorite franchises have already been brought to the big screen and have two movies out that were disrespectful and mediocre in fundamental ways, so those are already lost causes in terms of quality control.Which movies would that be? The Hulk?

[DACrowe]

My Doom origin if anybody cares.


He is on the ship with them. He is a rich businessman that fleed Lavertia when he was young and his parents were murdered and the military wanted him dead (kind of like Vito Corleone) and we see in a good 5+ minute flashback.

He has a very dark side. Well on the ship when the problems start and Reed can't fix them he throws Reed out of the way and tries to do it himself, well the radiation bursts through causing a fire to start and the burning machinary burn up Victor. As he burns it looks like all are doomed then comes the blast and they are all engulfed by gamma rays and only Johnny gets caught in the fire as Sue loses him in the smoke. Wreckage crushes Ben (don't ask me why it must be stone BUT IT IS!) and Reed stretches his arm over the wreckage as they crash towards the ocean (as they have been descending this whole time) and all are firee (and none have shown powers and it will be a slow process like SM). Meanwhile Doom or Damn or whatever sits in a hospital.

Reed visits him every day or so and he sees Victor's cold eyes through bandages with burnt flesh around it. No gamma hit him so he is stuck in this burnt state. He never talks to Reed just stares with hate and ditest and disdain for Reed. After FF become superstars, Victor just happens to get up, we have seen him having flashbacks of childhood in Lavertia and seen him prove himself worthy in the crime world and that is how he raised to a businessman. A doctor studied Victor this whole time and sees he can feel nothing, thinking Victor will never know again. He knows not Victor's will. The genius without feeling himself pushes himself the same way he did when he killed his mob boss in a flashback.

Reed breaks his doctor's neck. Reed and co. go there and can't imagine where Victor is, who they feel partly responsible for. They do whatever they do, and when they come home that night each falls into a trap, and not just physically trapped but physically and mentally trapped. He traps Ben with pictures of himself and mirrors and as Ben is being crushed with this, Reed is forced to watch trapped, Johnny is slowly cooling off and vanishing as he freezes to death, but Sue, Sue he keeps sedated to, well control.

Victor somehow thinks he killed them all and soon he announces his genius to the world. He dawns his metal armor and airs himself to the UN that he is DR. DOOM. He has killed their precious publicity stunt Fantastic Four. He will make the only surviving member his bride, and she is mind numbingly his next to him. The rest are dead, and he is using the same technology in the Baxter Building the UN paid and supplied Reed with. He has now funnelled it into a weapon with the capability to destroy the whole of New York. He also can take and make more nuclear weapons if he needs to.

So Reed er Victor gives the ultimatum, give him Lavertia or they will regret it. Of course they will not deal with terrorism. They send in a large military and FBI and police etc. circle of the Baxter building while Secret Forces secretly sneak inside and this is during a large outside diversion. Giant machines come in and shoot and kill and fight the cops back. As the cops think they and the military are distracting Doom, Doom turns every basic channel (CBS, NBC, ABC, etc) like on to his cameras and it even appears in Times Square. The Special Forces are divided and some are downright posioned but most are trapped and tortured in darkness and one kills another by accident and then kills himself. There are booby traps all around until the last three get trapped in a room and the wall of glass will crush them and they shoot it and the bullets bounce all around and take on new targets...

Doom then comes back on, he says he will forgive the UN of foolishly sending troops and the US for supplying them to their deaths. He says Lavertia or major cities, starting with New York, but he honestly states next will be London, then Paris, then Rome, then Sydney, etc, will continue until they give him Lavertia. This is outrageous, so the UN is facing oblivion and most of US is afraid of massive death.

Many flee the city, the FF gathers their thoughts and the three are humliated and scared of what Doom will do to them if they try and strike back, but Ben has nothing to lose, and despite Johnny's fear and confidence gone, for his sister's sake, and for Reed's love's sake they go back in.

Basically they surprise Doom and he uses his bodyguard machines to fight them. At first they seem beaten, but they then overcome it and Doom seems trapped. He then pulls out his trump which is Sue. She kisses his him and he pulls her in front of them. She is his and they will leave together. As he feels her Reed hands her some locket or some plot device which she gave him after they reconciled after the beginning accident. It was a sign of their bond and all that was left of her mother and father. Then we see Johnny pull out the other part and throw it to her she puts them together and looks sad but ready and boom she turns into well nothing. So, then the FF charge Doom. He throws some gadgets at Reed but a field pulls him out of the way. They begin trapping Doom, when Doom sets a trigger to cause the Baxter building to collapse, starting with this explosion in this room and a chain reaction will happen. He then falls through a passage way. It was the escape route he showed Reed at the beginning.

They have no time, for it only opens once and they have two seconds. Sue with all her strength takes the explosive and makes a perfect orb that traps it and they all are afraid for it is the size of the huge room (the orb) and what if she can't hold it. The explosion goes off and they are fine. Reed then shows them the other way to well the hidden getaway in the subway.

When they get there the first of two Subway minitrains are gone down the tunnel. Sue makes a bubble around it, as Johnny gives it extra steam with his fire from behind and pushes it all the way to catch up with Reed who is escaping with the weapon. Reed stretches out with Ben who clobbers the train open and jump at Doom. Doom sends little machines to kill them and as they fight he tries to set off the bomb, it causes the train to explode or implode and cause a major subway derailing. As the FF gathers their thoughts they see Doom limping up the stairs.

They surround him up on the streets. It is over for Doom, he reaches for a weapon as Reed screams no, and Johnny hotheadedly blasts Doom into flames killing him. He is lectured by Reed how they never kill and how Johnny is now evil and he will pay for what he did. When the police get there though, they say Johnny killed no one...this Doom was a robot! They go down to the tunnel and see that the "bomb" he built and was threatening the world with was no bomb. He could not make a nuclear weapon, no one figured it out how he could (even UN analysts) everyone just assumed looking at his electronic technology he did.

So Doom IS STILL OUT THERE! The FF are applauded and finally except their heroism and Ben puts his arm around a disillusioned Reed who they had been rifted in friendship the whole movie. Alicia runs up and hugs the Thing. Meanwhile the guy who killed or ordered the deaths of the Van Damn family is still in power in Lavertia.

As he watches the FF take on the "NYC publicity police" (yeah right) he hears something. Out of the shadows in front of the TV where the FF are given metals, he sees in a lightnean flash (stormy night) Doom in full metal and cloak standing in the shadow is there. Then in an homage to Batman Doom comes out each flash showing him holding something. He felt this deserved to be done the old fashioned way. Doom holds out a gun as the dictator tries to make a deal. Doom just laughs his metallic laugh, and says I have...with your military. As the dictator (who had been pushing the UN to kill him all movie) looks in horror as Doom fires into and killing the dictator. We hear laughing as we cut to some FF epilogue.

This was just the villain story, but what did you think?

[Nero_Ordin]

that is good but alot to read. doom is could do more evil things like threat the world if he doesn't get latervia.

[TheSaintofKillers]

The way I see all of these Doom discussions we all are having is that, yes, we fans could easily come up with a great way and with a great explanation as to why Doom is a businessman (like many of you guys already did, and all in great ways, imo! :up: ). And yes, i'm sure it's possible a good Hollywood writer, if he is respectful and has read the original source material (i.e., nearly EVERY Doom comics there is, which isn't much to ask of), then this writer could ALSO probably come up with a great way as to why Victor is a businessman and then, and only then, he might make us love that new incarnation of the character, which would be essentially the same, but with a new twist (i.e. the businessman angle).

BUT, us going as far as to explain how they could make Doom a businessman and yet keep him nearly intact character-wise proves how desperate we fans are!

I mean, sure, it could happen. Just like Batman Begins could suck mighty balls. But we are talking here about the folks who first changed Doom's name to Van Damne, made him a jealous boyfriend, had him have organic steel skin, had him go into space with the FF, and all of that on top of Victor being a petty businessman, with NO motives in life, except to BE a businessman.

Since then, there's been at least one new script, which has nearly the same Victor as in Frost's script (I'm talking about the moriarity review script here), except that now Doom's name is faithful and that he escapes the shuttle and goes in a different direction then the FF are going. Now, mind you, that's a good change, especially since it means Doom could then take that great occasion to take back Latveria, or instead build his armor, or yadada. I like that. What's bothering me ? Moriarity never mentioned any of those things. :(

Then, we seem to have heard that this latest draft might not be the latest draft.
Are Fox really fixing Doom's character ? Maybe, but is it getting worse or better ?

The fact that Fox has NEVER proven to us that they are able "fix" Doom, since it seems they don't understand him at all, sure as hell doesn't give us much hope. I mean, MAYBE we'll get lucky, but what are the chances that they will find a way (like us fans seems to be able to) to "explain" a great way as to WHY Victor IS a businessman ?

My point ? The fact that we are guessing HOW they might explain why Doom is a businessman and goes out with Sue (and yadayada) only indicates how desperate we truly are. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/thesaintofkiller/Doom03.jpg

[TheSumOfGod]

I heard that in the latest draft of the script, Herbie the robot will be gay and that Doom will have to fight polar bears on his way to the Baxter building in New York. ;)

[TheSaintofKillers]

I heard that in the latest draft of the script, Herbie the robot will be gay and that Doom will have to fight polar bears on his way to the Baxter building in New York. ;)

Well, I like the part about Doom fighting polar bears. :up:

;)

[Rebel_Ace]

...Herbie the robot will be gay...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Ok, Seinfeld mode off... :p

[spiderwyze]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v380/thesaintofkiller/Doom03.jpg

*bows down to the Doom 2099 pic*

I agree: Best. Doom. Ever. Hmm... how're you at writing fanfiction? :)

[TheSaintofKillers]

*bows down to the Doom 2099 pic*

I agree: Best. Doom. Ever. Hmm... how're you at writing fanfiction? :)

I write, but not fanfiction. I could if I wanted. Heck, what i'd probably do is write a script fanfiction, if I had more time. A Doom script... um, tempting. ;)

[TheSumOfGod]

Well, I like the part about Doom fighting polar bears. :up:

;)

Of course, that was a reference to one of the earlier SUPERMAN scripts, where Braniac's robot servant was portrayed as being gay, and Braniac actually had to fight polar bears on his way to the Fortress of Solitude in ANTARCTICA. :rolleyes:

[Herr Logan]

Which movies would that be? The Hulk?

I meant all of them. Spare me any claims that the Spider-Man and X-Men movies were perfect.

"Hulk" and "Daredevil" stand as the worst examples of Marvel's recent movies. "Hulk" had a couple of redeeming features, and "Daredevil" has maybe a fraction of one redeeming quality.

[TheSaintofKillers]

Of course, that was a reference to one of the earlier SUPERMAN scripts, where Braniac's robot servant was portrayed as being gay, and Braniac actually had to fight polar bears on his way to the Fortress of Solitude in ANTARCTICA. :rolleyes:

Meh, brainiac fighting Polar Bears ain't as awesome as Doom taking down one of them, without his armor in the snow, with only his physical skills to kill it. :p

[TheSaintofKillers]

I meant all of them. Spare me any claims that the Spider-Man and X-Men movies were perfect.

"Hulk" and "Daredevil" stand as the worst examples of Marvel's recent movies. "Hulk" had a couple of redeeming features, and "Daredevil" has maybe a fraction of one redeeming quality.

I'd just like to know "which" comic book movie you REALLY enjoyed, Logan ? I'm just curious, mind you. ;)

Imo, the original teenage mutant ninja turtles movie is the closest to perfection comic book adaptation. :cool:

[TheSumOfGod]

I meant all of them. Spare me any claims that the Spider-Man and X-Men movies were perfect.

"Hulk" and "Daredevil" stand as the worst examples of Marvel's recent movies. "Hulk" had a couple of redeeming features, and "Daredevil" has maybe a fraction of one redeeming quality.

Oh, I see. you're a PURIST. Well, as a geek who loves the characters and their stories, and is a reasonable individual willing to compromise, and understands that a perfect film adaptation of ANYTHING is IMPOSSIBLE, I must say that I consider X2, Hulk, Hellboy and the first Spider-Man as being the best comic book movies ever made. I enjoyed them thoroughly, and I look foward to their sequels, knowing full well that they will be a team of writers', a team of producers' and a director's personal interpretation of the source material, and not a direct frame-by-frame translation made by a super-computer.

[spiderwyze]

Imo, the original teenage mutant ninja turtles movie is the closest to perfection comic book adaptation. :cool:

I'm not the only one who thinks that? Awesome! :cool:

[Herr Logan]

My Doom origin if anybody cares.


He is on the ship with them. He is a rich businessman that fleed Lavertia when he was young and his parents were murdered and the military wanted him dead (kind of like Vito Corleone) and we see in a good 5+ minute flashback.

He has a very dark side. Well on the ship when the problems start and Reed can't fix them he throws Reed out of the way and tries to do it himself, well the radiation bursts through causing a fire to start and the burning machinary burn up Victor. As he burns it looks like all are doomed then comes the blast and they are all engulfed by gamma rays and only Johnny gets caught in the fire as Sue loses him in the smoke. Wreckage crushes Ben (don't ask me why it must be stone BUT IT IS!) and Reed stretches his arm over the wreckage as they crash towards the ocean (as they have been descending this whole time) and all are firee (and none have shown powers and it will be a slow process like SM). Meanwhile Doom or Damn or whatever sits in a hospital.

Reed visits him every day or so and he sees Victor's cold eyes through bandages with burnt flesh around it. No gamma hit him so he is stuck in this burnt state. He never talks to Reed just stares with hate and ditest and disdain for Reed. After FF become superstars, Victor just happens to get up, we have seen him having flashbacks of childhood in Lavertia and seen him prove himself worthy in the crime world and that is how he raised to a businessman. A doctor studied Victor this whole time and sees he can feel nothing, thinking Victor will never know again. He knows not Victor's will. The genius without feeling himself pushes himself the same way he did when he killed his mob boss in a flashback.

Reed breaks his doctor's neck. Reed and co. go there and can't imagine where Victor is, who they feel partly responsible for. They do whatever they do, and when they come home that night each falls into a trap, and not just physically trapped but physically and mentally trapped. He traps Ben with pictures of himself and mirrors and as Ben is being crushed with this, Reed is forced to watch trapped, Johnny is slowly cooling off and vanishing as he freezes to death, but Sue, Sue he keeps sedated to, well control.

Victor somehow thinks he killed them all and soon he announces his genius to the world. He dawns his metal armor and airs himself to the UN that he is DR. DOOM. He has killed their precious publicity stunt Fantastic Four. He will make the only surviving member his bride, and she is mind numbingly his next to him. The rest are dead, and he is using the same technology in the Baxter Building the UN paid and supplied Reed with. He has now funnelled it into a weapon with the capability to destroy the whole of New York. He also can take and make more nuclear weapons if he needs to.

So Reed er Victor gives the ultimatum, give him Lavertia or they will regret it. Of course they will not deal with terrorism. They send in a large military and FBI and police etc. circle of the Baxter building while Secret Forces secretly sneak inside and this is during a large outside diversion. Giant machines come in and shoot and kill and fight the cops back. As the cops think they and the military are distracting Doom, Doom turns every basic channel (CBS, NBC, ABC, etc) like on to his cameras and it even appears in Times Square. The Special Forces are divided and some are downright posioned but most are trapped and tortured in darkness and one kills another by accident and then kills himself. There are booby traps all around until the last three get trapped in a room and the wall of glass will crush them and they shoot it and the bullets bounce all around and take on new targets...

Doom then comes back on, he says he will forgive the UN of foolishly sending troops and the US for supplying them to their deaths. He says Lavertia or major cities, starting with New York, but he honestly states next will be London, then Paris, then Rome, then Sydney, etc, will continue until they give him Lavertia. This is outrageous, so the UN is facing oblivion and most of US is afraid of massive death.

Many flee the city, the FF gathers their thoughts and the three are humliated and scared of what Doom will do to them if they try and strike back, but Ben has nothing to lose, and despite Johnny's fear and confidence gone, for his sister's sake, and for Reed's love's sake they go back in.

Basically they surprise Doom and he uses his bodyguard machines to fight them. At first they seem beaten, but they then overcome it and Doom seems trapped. He then pulls out his trump which is Sue. She kisses his him and he pulls her in front of them. She is his and they will leave together. As he feels her Reed hands her some locket or some plot device which she gave him after they reconciled after the beginning accident. It was a sign of their bond and all that was left of her mother and father. Then we see Johnny pull out the other part and throw it to her she puts them together and looks sad but ready and boom she turns into well nothing. So, then the FF charge Doom. He throws some gadgets at Reed but a field pulls him out of the way. They begin trapping Doom, when Doom sets a trigger to cause the Baxter building to collapse, starting with this explosion in this room and a chain reaction will happen. He then falls through a passage way. It was the escape route he showed Reed at the beginning.

They have no time, for it only opens once and they have two seconds. Sue with all her strength takes the explosive and makes a perfect orb that traps it and they all are afraid for it is the size of the huge room (the orb) and what if she can't hold it. The explosion goes off and they are fine. Reed then shows them the other way to well the hidden getaway in the subway.

When they get there the first of two Subway minitrains are gone down the tunnel. Sue makes a bubble around it, as Johnny gives it extra steam with his fire from behind and pushes it all the way to catch up with Reed who is escaping with the weapon. Reed stretches out with Ben who clobbers the train open and jump at Doom. Doom sends little machines to kill them and as they fight he tries to set off the bomb, it causes the train to explode or implode and cause a major subway derailing. As the FF gathers their thoughts they see Doom limping up the stairs.

They surround him up on the streets. It is over for Doom, he reaches for a weapon as Reed screams no, and Johnny hotheadedly blasts Doom into flames killing him. He is lectured by Reed how they never kill and how Johnny is now evil and he will pay for what he did. When the police get there though, they say Johnny killed no one...this Doom was a robot! They go down to the tunnel and see that the "bomb" he built and was threatening the world with was no bomb. He could not make a nuclear weapon, no one figured it out how he could (even UN analysts) everyone just assumed looking at his electronic technology he did.

So Doom IS STILL OUT THERE! The FF are applauded and finally except their heroism and Ben puts his arm around a disillusioned Reed who they had been rifted in friendship the whole movie. Alicia runs up and hugs the Thing. Meanwhile the guy who killed or ordered the deaths of the Van Damn family is still in power in Lavertia.

As he watches the FF take on the "NYC publicity police" (yeah right) he hears something. Out of the shadows in front of the TV where the FF are given metals, he sees in a lightnean flash (stormy night) Doom in full metal and cloak standing in the shadow is there. Then in an homage to Batman Doom comes out each flash showing him holding something. He felt this deserved to be done the old fashioned way. Doom holds out a gun as the dictator tries to make a deal. Doom just laughs his metallic laugh, and says I have...with your military. As the dictator (who had been pushing the UN to kill him all movie) looks in horror as Doom fires into and killing the dictator. We hear laughing as we cut to some FF epilogue.

This was just the villain story, but what did you think?

Okay, you need to work on your typing and grammar. Also, some of this doesn't make any sense at all. Reed breaks his doctor's neck?? You'd need to clean this up a lot.

Aside from that, and giving you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to unclear language, I honestly think this is one of the best story ideas regarding Dr. Doom that has been proposed (that includes Doom on the space shuttle) here so far. Isn't that scary? ;)

[Herr Logan]

I'd just like to know "which" comic book movie you REALLY enjoyed, Logan ? I'm just curious, mind you. ;)

Imo, the original teenage mutant ninja turtles movie is the closest to perfection comic book adaptation. :cool:

Overall really liked? "Spider-Man" and "X-Men 2"-- merely because I was expecting even worse. After much thought, I've decided that setting the bar extremely low for comic book filmmakers only lowers myself. I loved the web-swinging scenes and most of Norman Osborn's scenes in "Spider-Man," almost all the Doc Ock stuff in "Spider-Man 2," all of Magneto's scenes in "X-Men 2," and the desert battle scene in "Hulk." Snatches of excellence. Not as good as an excellent movie overall, but something from which to take solace.

"Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" kicked ass. :up: