Worst Moments in Comic Books

[Zev]

It begins... again.

You know the rules. Just report those moments in comic books that really bug you. I'll chime in once and a while with an update. And for courtesy's sake, for events up to a year ago, put them in SPOILER tags and give the name of the mag you're reporting. So, if something in Ultimate Spider-Man 62 pissed you off, do this.

Ultimate Spider-Man 62

Something that pisses you off

"We have to save Galactus!", Fantastic Four 243 (1982)

John Bryne. No other name inspires quite as much debate as his. We can all acknowledge that at some point he Had It. It let him create one of the most memorable runs on the Fantastic Four since the days of Lee/Kirby, one that was not eclipsed until Mark Waid, with his 'Imaginauts', came along. However, projects like Chapter One and his work with Spider-Man 'luminaries' such as Howard Mackie, Bob Harras, and Ralph Macchio have led us to believe he's Lost It, whatever It may be. Perhaps one day he shall find It again. A good start would be to go back to his early stories and see what worked there, what made him such a beloved icon. However, one story he should definitely skip in searching for the key to his popularity would be this one, FF 243.

Everyone knows about Galactus. Big guy, wears a really cool helmet, gets along by eating planets. He first appeared in Fantastic Four 48. His herald (more like scout) Silver Surfer appeared and basically told the Earthlings to get out, this was about to become a buffet. Upon learning the planet was inhabited, Galactus basically said he was going to eat it anyway because he was so much better then us (don't you hate when superior beings do that? As Marge Simpson said, "Do they really have to rub it in like that?"). Well, he was beaten back despite overwhelming odds and returned to menace the planet several times, although as of yet, he hasn't succeeded (although with the sheer number of homicides occuring throughout the Avengers titles, you'd be hardpressed to tell the difference. Ooh, I made a funny!)

Well, Terrax, one of Galactus' meaner Heralds, got fed up of working for the Big G and basically abandoned him far from any worlds appropriate for him to feast on. He then led the enraged Galactus on a merry chase, further exhausting Conehead's energy, until Terrax decided to make his last stand on the planet whose inhabitants (i.e., the FF) had caused his enslavement to Galactus. Surrounding Manhattan in a force bubble, he lifted the whole thing up into outer space (one of his powers being a mastery over earth and stone).

He then gave the order for Reed, Ben, and Johnny to murderize Galactus, the alternative being the use of the primo New York real estate in his position to... well, the words 'ramming speed!' come to mind.

Things started going south. Onboard Galactus' ship, Thing observed "...if you ask me [Galactus is] a much nicer guy than Terrax! Seems like we're on the wrong side in this one."

UH-OH! Frankly, I don't care if Galactus is Gandhi, Mother Theresa, and Tom Hanks all rolled into one. HE EATS PLANETS! He's been the sole cause of genocide after genocide after genocide. His very existence precipitates the deaths of billions time and time again.

Well, Galactus and Terrax threw down, ending with Terrax being reduced back to mortal status... to the left of the top of the World Trade Center (ouch). Galactus, however, still needed to binge and so started the whole "I'm going to build a doomsday machine to eat your world" process (and no, said doomsday machine did not look like a fork, knife, and spoon).

With a little help from the Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, the Wasp, and Dr. Strange (his contribution being, ironically enough, a spell that forced Galactus to face his trillions of victims), the FF bested Galactus. Reed observed that Galactus "is only moments from death." Johnny, demonstrating wisdom (or maybe just common sense) beyond his years, observed "I hate to sound hard-hearted (cold-hearted being a physical impossibility for the youth), but that WILL solve everything, won't it?"

Reed, from his metaphorical ivory tower, said "No, Johnny, it won't. And if you'll think for a moment you'll realize our problems have only begun!"

"I know what you're going to say, Reed, and I concur," said the Sentinel of Liberty, who had fought Hitler. Adolf, by the way, compared to Galactus is like a firecracker compared to a Gamma Bomb. "Galactus may be the greatest menace we've ever faced, but he is also a living being."

"We have no choice," Reed continued to moralize. "We have to save Galactus!"

That thud you heard was my jaw hitting the floor. I admit, they lost me somewhere around the "Galactus is a living being = we must save Galactus" equation. Perhaps Bryne was trying to say something about the sanctity of life, but GALACTUS! He is not going to repent, change his ways, and Sin No More. He's a virus, a parasite upon the galaxy!

What's worse is that Daredevil and Spider-Man were watching from the wings. You're telling me none of these guys were going to go down there and inject some simple common sense into the equation? Picture Elektra or Gwen Stacy dying a million, no, a billion times over. It doesn't matter if Galactus FEELS SORRY about what he does. The only, ONLY, logical conclusion is to do for the old dog what the old dog cannot do for himself and put him out of his misery (and I do mean MISERY. "If Galactus had but the tears to cry for those whose lives he had wrought, the stars would drown..." and so on and so on).

But no. They fixed Galactus up, changed his oil, even gave him a new Herald (in this case, Johnny's girlfriend, Frankie Raye. Who, when told her job involved selecting planets and their inhabitants for possible extinction, remarked that she's 'only' be killing "bug-eyed monsters". You sure know how to pick 'em, Johnny!). And so Galactus walked into the sunset, ready to devour some other world. But hey, as long as Reed doesn't have to hear from them, he can sleep at night. This is one of those moments where the only response can be to bang your head against something and say "Stupid stupid STUPID!" like a mantra against evil. And that, more then anything else, makes it a fitting kick-off for Worst Moments in Comic Books.

[Darthphere]

Clone Saga.

[Zev]

Could you be more specific? This is Worst Moments not Worst Years.

[CobraCommander]

Magneto showing up in Excaliber in general. But specifically in issue #2 when he says "Does it even matter how I survived?"

Ugh... I threw the book down and haven't read it Excaliber since. Only X-books I touch now are Astronishing, District X, and Madrox. Maybe the worst moment was when Marvel editorial decided to piss on Grant Morrison's entire run that had topped the sales charts and re-invigorated the franchise.

[The Hero]

It begins... again.

You know the rules. Just report those moments in comic books that really bug you. I'll chime in once and a while with an update. And for courtesy's sake, for events up to a year ago, put them in SPOILER tags and give the name of the mag you're reporting. So, if something in Ultimate Spider-Man 62 pissed you off, do this.

Ultimate Spider-Man 62

Something that pisses you off

"We have to save Galactus!", Fantastic Four 243 (1982)

John Bryne. No other name inspires quite as much debate as his. We can all acknowledge that at some point he Had It. It let him create one of the most memorable runs on the Fantastic Four since the days of Lee/Kirby, one that was not eclipsed until Mark Waid, with his 'Imaginauts', came along. However, projects like Chapter One and his work with Spider-Man 'luminaries' such as Howard Mackie, Bob Harras, and Ralph Macchio have led us to believe he's Lost It, whatever It may be. Perhaps one day he shall find It again. A good start would be to go back to his early stories and see what worked there, what made him such a beloved icon. However, one story he should definitely skip in searching for the key to his popularity would be this one, FF 243.

Everyone knows about Galactus. Big guy, wears a really cool helmet, gets along by eating planets. He first appeared in Fantastic Four 48. His herald (more like scout) Silver Surfer appeared and basically told the Earthlings to get out, this was about to become a buffet. Upon learning the planet was inhabited, Galactus basically said he was going to eat it anyway because he was so much better then us (don't you hate when superior beings do that? As Marge Simpson said, "Do they really have to rub it in like that?"). Well, he was beaten back despite overwhelming odds and returned to menace the planet several times, although as of yet, he hasn't succeeded (although with the sheer number of homicides occuring throughout the Avengers titles, you'd be hardpressed to tell the difference. Ooh, I made a funny!)

Well, Terrax, one of Galactus' meaner Heralds, got fed up of working for the Big G and basically abandoned him far from any worlds appropriate for him to feast on. He then led the enraged Galactus on a merry chase, further exhausting Conehead's energy, until Terrax decided to make his last stand on the planet whose inhabitants (i.e., the FF) had caused his enslavement to Galactus. Surrounding Manhattan in a force bubble, he lifted the whole thing up into outer space (one of his powers being a mastery over earth and stone).

He then gave the order for Reed, Ben, and Johnny to murderize Galactus, the alternative being the use of the primo New York real estate in his position to... well, the words 'ramming speed!' come to mind.

Things started going south. Onboard Galactus' ship, Thing observed "...if you ask me [Galactus is] a much nicer guy than Terrax! Seems like we're on the wrong side in this one."

UH-OH! Frankly, I don't care if Galactus is Gandhi, Mother Theresa, and Tom Hanks all rolled into one. HE EATS PLANETS! He's been the sole cause of genocide after genocide after genocide. His very existence precipitates the deaths of billions time and time again.

Well, Galactus and Terrax threw down, ending with Terrax being reduced back to mortal status... to the left of the top of the World Trade Center (ouch). Galactus, however, still needed to binge and so started the whole "I'm going to build a doomsday machine to eat your world" process (and no, said doomsday machine did not look like a fork, knife, and spoon).

With a little help from the Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, the Wasp, and Dr. Strange (his contribution being, ironically enough, a spell that forced Galactus to face his trillions of victims), the FF bested Galactus. Reed observed that Galactus "is only moments from death." Johnny, demonstrating wisdom (or maybe just common sense) beyond his years, observed "I hate to sound hard-hearted (cold-hearted being a physical impossibility for the youth), but that WILL solve everything, won't it?"

Reed, from his metaphorical ivory tower, said "No, Johnny, it won't. And if you'll think for a moment you'll realize our problems have only begun!"

"I know what you're going to say, Reed, and I concur," said the Sentinel of Liberty, who had fought Hitler. Adolf, by the way, compared to Galactus is like a firecracker compared to a Gamma Bomb. "Galactus may be the greatest menace we've ever faced, but he is also a living being."

"We have no choice," Reed continued to moralize. "We have to save Galactus!"

That thud you heard was my jaw hitting the floor. I admit, they lost me somewhere around the "Galactus is a living being = we must save Galactus" equation. Perhaps Bryne was trying to say something about the sanctity of life, but GALACTUS! He is not going to repent, change his ways, and Sin No More. He's a virus, a parasite upon the galaxy!

What's worse is that Daredevil and Spider-Man were watching from the wings. You're telling me none of these guys were going to go down there and inject some simple common sense into the equation? Picture Elektra or Gwen Stacy dying a million, no, a billion times over. It doesn't matter if Galactus FEELS SORRY about what he does. The only, ONLY, logical conclusion is to do for the old dog what the old dog cannot do for himself and put him out of his misery (and I do mean MISERY. "If Galactus had but the tears to cry for those whose lives he had wrought, the stars would drown..." and so on and so on).

But no. They fixed Galactus up, changed his oil, even gave him a new Herald (in this case, Johnny's girlfriend, Frankie Raye. Who, when told her job involved selecting planets and their inhabitants for possible extinction, remarked that she's 'only' be killing "bug-eyed monsters". You sure know how to pick 'em, Johnny!). And so Galactus walked into the sunset, ready to devour some other world. But hey, as long as Reed doesn't have to hear from them, he can sleep at night. This is one of those moments where the only response can be to bang your head against something and say "Stupid stupid STUPID!" like a mantra against evil. And that, more then anything else, makes it a fitting kick-off for Worst Moments in Comic Books.
Isn't Galactus' soul tied to the universe or something?I always thought that was why they never killed him.:confused:

[DBM]

One of the worst moments for me, was ASM 512.

I just read it today and it ****ing sucked. I don't know what the hell JMS is thinking but I just plain don't like it.

[Zev]

Isn't Galactus' soul tied to the universe or something?I always thought that was why they never killed him.:confused:

Well, if that's the case, they didn't mention it during the story, thus it's inadmissible. If I killed a man at random and it later turned out that he was, say, a bank robber, does that put me in the right?

[Doc Destruction]

I agree DBM.

How about John Byrne having a say in the trial of Galactus???

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

[Zev]

Echo, Daredevil 51-55

Daredevil 54 is a story about a girl named Echo with Wolverine on the cover.

That's pretty much all you need to know. But since there exist several gluttons for punishment (this is the Internet, after all), I'm going to recap it anyway.

After Daredevil 50 (I won't spoil what happened, just for you people who are really, really behind), Bendis decided to take a break from the title for five issues. Apparently he didn't learn his lesson and overexposed himself more with Avengers Disassembled, which is a topic for an entirely different time.

Add to that 'auteur' David Mack planning to do a mini about Echo, previously introduced in the also-bad-but-not-quite-as-bad-as-this arc Pieces of a Hole (ugh! That cutesy crap is almost as bad as Jewel's "A Night Without Armor").

So, Marvel, in its infinite wisdom, decided to shove Mack's miniseries (a square peg if every there was one and I mean that in a BAD way) into the main Daredevil title (say it with me now. Round hole).

We got Daredevil: Echo: Vision Quest: Pieces of a Hole 2: Electric Boogaloo: Tomb Raider: The Empire Strikes Back.

I'd hate to be a subscriber.

For one thing, Mack brought back Kingpin after he (oh, and Bullseye) were sent off by Bendis as after being the sole Daredevil villains of any note for years if not decades, they really were getting quite stale (as evidenced by Bullseye being brought back and killing DD's girlfriend AGAIN, but that's another Worst Moment for another time). And what's the point of Kingpin being brought back? During the whole conversation, Echo says exactly two words and Kingpin basically says "I still love you." So much for concluding their relationship.

And for the record, "I am nine years old when my father dies" written with Scrabble leters was cool the first time. But it got real old, real quick. And, for some reason, the same images appear over and over in different panels, sometimes resized or flipped to give the illusion of it being a new piece of work.

The plot is practically nonexistent. This gave way to a lot of "Oh, you just DON'T GET IT" fan blather of Hulk-level aggraviation. I got It, but It wasn't much of anything at all. But of course, noted defenders of plotless exercises in futility (I'm not naming names, but the foremost rhymes with Quentin Black) jumped to its defense. Say what you will about Bendis' extremely character-based writing, but at least stuff happened and progressed. We don't hear Matt recapping his origin three times in a row and painstakingly making sure we understand his powers.

Basically each issue was a recap of the previous issue. All it is, beyond recapping Echo's origin (I don't care about how you never heard a goddamn dog bark, you *****!) is "Echo returns to New York, and finds out Matt has a new girl. She goes on a vision quest, where she meets Wolverine."

Wolverine. That's right. The most overexposed character of all time. If this were the nineties, she would probably have also met Punisher, Venom, Spider-Man, and whoever else was 'hot' at the moment.

Mack can do great paintings, and he can do bad ones. For one thing, he never picks out a consistent face for Echo. Compare the cover to 51 and the last page of 52 for an example. And if you think Bendis is bad with repeated panels, Mack threw tons of them at us. The same picture of Wolverine posing with his claws was used, what, five times? And then there's the Daredevil appearence, in which Mack not only used the same image twice but he actually used an image from Maleev's run! He just snipped and pasted it!

If anything ever showed how bankrupt the whole "I'm a collector, so I must get everything with so-and-so's name on it" thing was, then this is it.

[Dwarf lord]

Avengers Disassembled. I can't get more spesific than that.

[Guyverjay]

Well, if that's the case, they didn't mention it during the story, thus it's inadmissible. If I killed a man at random and it later turned out that he was, say, a bank robber, does that put me in the right?


Not everything in comics has to be explained there and then:o

The whole thing was sorted out in The trial of Galactus:up:

[Symbiotica]

One word: [or is it two words...?]

Spider-Mobile.

[Mr. Edward Hyde]

worst moment in comic history?
bendis

[Zev]

Not everything in comics has to be explained there and then:o

The whole thing was sorted out in The trial of Galactus:up:

There is no possible way Reed (let alone the Avengers) could've known beforehand that Galactus had some mystical connection with the welfare of the entire universe. That's a ridiculous excuse. It's like me killing someone, only to find out later that he beat his wife. Does that mean me killing him in the first place, ignorant of his wife-battering, is alright?

No? Then why is the opposite true?

[Union Jack]

worst moment in comics....thor being beaten by superman.

[Darthphere]

The Golden Oldie....



Even though I enjoyed it.

[The Victor]

Worst moment in comic books?
When writers tried to do different things with characters.
God, I hated that.

[Dread]

I could name a good number of specific sagas, series, and so forth, but I think I'll reach deep into something from a while back, 11 years ago, that as a younger fan, got on my goat as a younger fan at age 11 (and some change).

NOTE: This is NOT the only "bad moment" or what I feel is THE worse moment, just something I feel will kick off some feelings, like DBM did.

Spider-Man Unlimited #2 (Aug. 1993)- Maximum Carnage part 14.

Back in those days, a 14 part crossover that spanned some 3 titles within the course of a year or so was a "new", hyped event. It would only be a few years before X-books, Superman books, and Batman books would milk the crossover to death like any regular fad. Still, this story was one of the grandpappys of "mega-part" crossovers (as in beyond 3-5 parts). This was also before Onslaught, before "noseless Pirate-Mask" Wolverine, before the Clone Saga, even.

There are plenty of people who dislike this storyline, because it was essentially a collection of baddies facing a collection of heroes in one brawl after another, but to an 11 year old fan, all the fighting and costumes was a fun read. The plot was simple enough and I liked action more then than I do now. I didn't get every part of the crossover but I got enough of it, and tracked down the finale at a back-issue mart about a year later when I missed it, to see how it finally all ended.

During this time, I might add, I had started to like Venom as an anti-hero. No, he shouldn't have become as heroic as he was, but remained in the gray area, like The Hulk in a way. But he was overdone in bad stories a lot, but I still saw something in the character, due to life experiences. I was, however, a longtime fan of Spider-Man.

At one point in Maximum Carnage, Spider-Man screams at a mob that has rallied into chaos with the events of Carnage and his crew: "You want to act like animals, then you won't get any mercy from Spider-Man!" My jaw dropped. I hadn't seen Spidey this ticked in a while. I had no idea what would happen. Would Carnage, who was only slaughtering hapless innocents, face his end much like Green Goblin?

A few issues later, however, Spidey was back to his old self, when Venom was committed to finishing Carnage once and for all. I kind of shrugged my shoulders and went, "oh, well."

But this finale kind of irked me at the time, and now, for one simple reason; while I understand Spider-Man being committed to preserving life, his overly liberal verbal defense of Carnage's rampages just about made me sick.

Carnage, recall, was an abused child who started his murder sprees young, killing folks in an orphanage and setting a fire to cover it up. He was jailed for about 10 or so murders and bragged about a dozen more. He was accidentally empowered by Venom and in his first spree, killed quite a few folks " 'cause I can". In this arc, he and his "family" were slaughtering droves of people left and right, and inciting riots that hurt even more. So the fact that Spider-Man felt that Carnage was somehow above certain responsibilities because of his past was a little disheartening.

Proof? At one point, Spider-Man goes, "He [Carnage] may have been the most innocent of all!" Excuse me? Because he was abused as a child, it's alright that he kills random people? Just because we can explain it, justifies keeping him around? The Amazing Spider-Man is willing to kill Sin-Eater (who was a guy with a shotgun, basically) because he killed Jean DeWolfe, a woman he knew, almost killed Betty, an ex-lover, but feels no such rage to Carnage only because he didn't lose anyone he knew in the chaos? How elitist. I wondered if Spider-Man would have so easily confused Carnage for being "innocent" had, say MJ or May been sliced open by him.

And while I understand Spider-Man being moral and wanting to preserve life, this other line made me chuckle back then: "There's already been so much killing, one more won't solve anything!" Um, but if that "one more" is the dude doing the killing, then it kind of will solve everything.

I understood Spider-Man feeling that life is precious. That he wouldn't deliberately kill (yet felt no lasting remourse for Charlie, the girl he accidently killed with a punch, in "Wolverine vs. Spider-Man" #1 beyond the flight trip home) anyone if he could help it. But he isn't made of stone, and can succumb to emotion like the rest of us, which makes him real. So seeing him confuse Carnage as an "innocent" like a couple in a car who Carnage would just rip open as he moved across the city made me feel ill.

Had Spider-Man said, "This piece of scum doesn't deserve to live, but killing him off would only show we're no better than he is" would have been corny, but that would have swallowed better. NOT using Carnage's abuse-case past as a justification for his rampages, or confusing him with an old lady in the street he likely disemboweled.

There were worse moments in Marvel history, but this one was one of the first times Marvel disappointed me with something. Take it for what you will. This rant's been a decade coming.

[Zev]

I could name a good number of specific sagas, series, and so forth, but I think I'll reach deep into something from a while back, 11 years ago, that as a younger fan, got on my goat as a younger fan at age 11 (and some change).

NOTE: This is NOT the only "bad moment" or what I feel is THE worse moment, just something I feel will kick off some feelings, like DBM did.

Spider-Man Unlimited #2 (Aug. 1993)- Maximum Carnage part 14.

Back in those days, a 14 part crossover that spanned some 3 titles within the course of a year or so was a "new", hyped event. It would only be a few years before X-books, Superman books, and Batman books would milk the crossover to death like any regular fad. Still, this story was one of the grandpappys of "mega-part" crossovers (as in beyond 3-5 parts). This was also before Onslaught, before "noseless Pirate-Mask" Wolverine, before the Clone Saga, even.

There are plenty of people who dislike this storyline, because it was essentially a collection of baddies facing a collection of heroes in one brawl after another, but to an 11 year old fan, all the fighting and costumes was a fun read. The plot was simple enough and I liked action more then than I do now. I didn't get every part of the crossover but I got enough of it, and tracked down the finale at a back-issue mart about a year later when I missed it, to see how it finally all ended.

During this time, I might add, I had started to like Venom as an anti-hero. No, he shouldn't have become as heroic as he was, but remained in the gray area, like The Hulk in a way. But he was overdone in bad stories a lot, but I still saw something in the character, due to life experiences. I was, however, a longtime fan of Spider-Man.

At one point in Maximum Carnage, Spider-Man screams at a mob that has rallied into chaos with the events of Carnage and his crew: "You want to act like animals, then you won't get any mercy from Spider-Man!" My jaw dropped. I hadn't seen Spidey this ticked in a while. I had no idea what would happen. Would Carnage, who was only slaughtering hapless innocents, face his end much like Green Goblin?

A few issues later, however, Spidey was back to his old self, when Venom was committed to finishing Carnage once and for all. I kind of shrugged my shoulders and went, "oh, well."

But this finale kind of irked me at the time, and now, for one simple reason; while I understand Spider-Man being committed to preserving life, his overly liberal verbal defense of Carnage's rampages just about made me sick.

Carnage, recall, was an abused child who started his murder sprees young, killing folks in an orphanage and setting a fire to cover it up. He was jailed for about 10 or so murders and bragged about a dozen more. He was accidentally empowered by Venom and in his first spree, killed quite a few folks " 'cause I can". In this arc, he and his "family" were slaughtering droves of people left and right, and inciting riots that hurt even more. So the fact that Spider-Man felt that Carnage was somehow above certain responsibilities because of his past was a little disheartening.

Proof? At one point, Spider-Man goes, "He [Carnage] may have been the most innocent of all!" Excuse me? Because he was abused as a child, it's alright that he kills random people? Just because we can explain it, justifies keeping him around? The Amazing Spider-Man is willing to kill Sin-Eater (who was a guy with a shotgun, basically) because he killed Jean DeWolfe, a woman he knew, almost killed Betty, an ex-lover, but feels no such rage to Carnage only because he didn't lose anyone he knew in the chaos? How elitist. I wondered if Spider-Man would have so easily confused Carnage for being "innocent" had, say MJ or May been sliced open by him.

And while I understand Spider-Man being moral and wanting to preserve life, this other line made me chuckle back then: "There's already been so much killing, one more won't solve anything!" Um, but if that "one more" is the dude doing the killing, then it kind of will solve everything.

I understood Spider-Man feeling that life is precious. That he wouldn't deliberately kill (yet felt no lasting remourse for Charlie, the girl he accidently killed with a punch, in "Wolverine vs. Spider-Man" #1 beyond the flight trip home) anyone if he could help it. But he isn't made of stone, and can succumb to emotion like the rest of us, which makes him real. So seeing him confuse Carnage as an "innocent" like a couple in a car who Carnage would just rip open as he moved across the city made me feel ill.

Had Spider-Man said, "This piece of scum doesn't deserve to live, but killing him off would only show we're no better than he is" would have been corny, but that would have swallowed better. NOT using Carnage's abuse-case past as a justification for his rampages, or confusing him with an old lady in the street he likely disemboweled.

There were worse moments in Marvel history, but this one was one of the first times Marvel disappointed me with something. Take it for what you will. This rant's been a decade coming.

See? Now that's a good Worst Moment.

So now we have, in the camp of excuses to kill according to Marvel, being abused as a child and feeling bad about it.

[Doomed_hero]

The Return of Aunt May.

[X]

Killing Galactus would do a lot more bad then good. Because the universe would be destroyed and all. :up:

Not to mention someday he's going to sacrifice his life and recreate the universe.

I personally like the whole Terrax/Manhatten/everyone vs. Galactus thing. Thor just bashing Galactus in the head and almost toppling him, yadda yadda yadda. Good stuff. :up:

Spider-Man and DD were hanging back because what was going on was beyond their capibility to deal with.

[Nero_Ordin]

the ben reily clone being spiderman.

[Symbiotica]

Spider-Man Unlimited #2 (Aug. 1993)- Maximum Carnage part 14. [...]

But this finale kind of irked me at the time, and now, for one simple reason; while I understand Spider-Man being committed to preserving life, his overly liberal verbal defense of Carnage's rampages just about made me sick.

Maximum Carnage is a guilty pleasure, no doubt about it. Altho one could remark that perhaps nowadays we need some more good fights and less jaw-flapping on-page, but I digress. And I agree with you that the ending royally sucks... but for different reasons.

Once again Marvel pulls a "rabbit" out of a hat to vanquish an all-but-unstoppable foe: in this case, "goodness" rays that cause a sea-change in all who feel them toward the bright side of the Force, emitted by Dagger or some such Godforsaken thing. [sarcasm there.... but not too far from the truth.] All the villains fold like a deck of cards, The End. That just sucks. It's frankly stupid.

Carnage is not the first foe Spidey has wrongheadedly defended [the name "Venom" comes to mind...] but illogical as it may be, it allows his stellar Rogue's Gallery to remain mostly intact, and for this reason it is tolerated. Of course it would make more sense in total lives saved for Spidey to kill just about all of his foes.... but he shouldn't kill, because that would "kill" the Spidey we know & love. He hates to believe anyone, no matter how bad, is totally irredeemable. That's not good sense but it makes him very loveable.

Just my opinion, o' course..... endings are a huge problem for Marvel quality-wise, they need to work on this area, at least in the Spidey books. A tacky, unbelievable ending just wrecks the whole thing.

zev: "So now we have, in the camp of excuses to kill according to Marvel, being abused as a child and feeling bad about it."

Not only in the Marvel U, but people in real life are using this as a defense for everything from not paying their cell-phone bill on Judge Judy, to the Unibomber. [just kidding, I don't know what the Unibomber's main excuse was other than a dislike of technology, but you know what I mean. :gg:]

[Roughneck]

The worst moment im Marvel Comic History is In Secret Wars #8.

The Hulk (with the mind of Banner) discovers a machine that can create any costume, hence Thors new Cape and hat. But he said it while wearing his torn purple pants. If he is smart wouldn't he have gotten himself a costume?

[Assassin]

worst moment in comic history?
bendis


U are wrong my young padawan. the name is spelled A U S T E N :hellboy:

[Guyverjay]

There is no possible way Reed (let alone the Avengers) could've known beforehand that Galactus had some mystical connection with the welfare of the entire universe. That's a ridiculous excuse. It's like me killing someone, only to find out later that he beat his wife. Does that mean me killing him in the first place, ignorant of his wife-battering, is alright?

No? Then why is the opposite true?


That isn't why he saved him. You haven't read it so you really can't comment

[Zev]

Okay, so you tell me why the FF, the Avengers, and the onlooking Daredevil and Spider-Man all decided saving Galactus was kosher. Because at the time, no one was saying "his soul is tied into the universe!"

[euroq]

The worst moment im Marvel Comic History is In Secret Wars #8.

The Hulk (with the mind of Banner) discovers a machine that can create any costume, hence Thors new Cape and hat. But he said it while wearing his torn purple pants. If he is smart wouldn't he have gotten himself a costume?

Maybe he really likes those torn purple pants?

[Doc Destruction]

Okay, so you tell me why the FF, the Avengers, and the onlooking Daredevil and Spider-Man all decided saving Galactus was kosher. Because at the time, no one was saying "his soul is tied into the universe!"

This is almost as bad as the entire jury in the Trial of Reed Richards listening to John Byrne (!!!) explain why what he did isn't so bad.

What the hell ego crack was John smoking that month?

[Zev]

This is almost as bad as the entire jury in the Trial of Reed Richards listening to John Byrne (!!!) explain why what he did isn't so bad.

What the hell ego crack was John smoking that month?

Metafiction? What does he think this is, She-Hulk?

[Genis-vell]

Anyone catch the god awful team up of Spidey and the X-men in the savage land looking for Sauron? Now that was a pile of log!

[The Hero]

Four sad,sad words...

http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/images/chtylok/chtylok1.jpg

Yeah,thats right.Spider-Man,Ka-Zar,Hulk,Sheild,and Roxxon fight a monster in the savage land called a fricking Chicken-Cow.

[X]

Four sad,sad words...

http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/images/chtylok/chtylok1.jpg

Yeah,thats right.Spider-Man,Ka-Zar,Hulk,Sheild,and Roxxon fight a monster in the savage land called a fricking Chicken-Cow.

That's how it sounded, it was spelt differently. :D

I kind of enjoyed those anyhow. Not meant to be serious and the 3 whatever day long fight kicked ass. :D

[The Hero]

That's how it sounded, it was spelt differently. :D

I kind of enjoyed those anyhow. Not meant to be serious and the 3 whatever day long fight kicked ass. :DAll comics are meant to be taken serious,and if you believe any different,you are below me. :down ;)

[IncredibleHulk]

Worst thing to happen to comics?


BRUCE JONES writing Hulk!!!!!!!!!!!

[Abaddon]

Current ASM Arc
Pete being the clone
MJ "knowing all along":rolleyes:
Secret Wars 2

[Genis-vell]

Current ASM Arc
Pete being the clone
MJ "knowing all along":rolleyes:
Secret Wars 2
What's so bad about the new ASM arc? I've not picked it up for a while, not since that Green gangster dude.

[Doc Destruction]

Norman Osborne is officially the anti-christ of Marvel, that's all ;)

[Nero_Ordin]

the four other symbiotes other than venom and carnage.

[Zev]

Enlightened Peacenik Punisher, Punisher: In The Beginning

Okay, this one hits close to home in a way only blatantly dishonest propoganda can. Ennis' political views are on record, from Punisher: Army on One (that featured a threat to assassinate the President from Punisher, which seems like wish fulfillment on Ennis' part) to Fury (in which we get to see the Evil Intelligence Community from INSIDE the Evil Intelligence Community. Ennis' Nick Fury is a brutal ******* who likes to put cigars out in the eyes of people who annoy him, sleeps with hookers, and contemplates starting a war so as to have something to do) to Punisher: The End (we find our hero in an America totally devastated by nuclear war caused by – of course – American militarism and corporate greed. Listen and be enlightened by Ennis, errr, the Punisher: “Once upon a time there was a bunch of evil ****s. Hardly anyone knew, because they were so good at keeping it quiet. But these particular evil ****s owned the world. And they made the world a cruel and terrible place. They ran the great industries that poisoned the air. Their businesses turned whole countries into slaves… They made puppets out of presidents and started wars for profit. Eventually, they came to believe that there was nothing that they couldn’t do. And so one day – inevitably – they pushed the planet’s luck too far.” The Punisher explains how the end will come, “Ten bad years. Iraq was one thing. North Korea. Even Pakistan. You shout War on Terror at the Chinese and they laugh so hard the world blows up in your face. That’s the trouble with a war you never want to end.”) and finally to today's story. Presumably tiring of having Punisher take on one Evil Goomba after Evil Goomba (that's what a hatred of superpowered characters will get ya), Ennis annouced his intention to do something different. He was going to bring back Micro, Punisher's former parter-in-anti-crime. Not only that, but the story would be grittier, darker, more realistic. No more titantically-boobed Russian hitmen, no more French nukes, just crime noir, with all the language and violence inherant to that.

Sounds good, doesn't it? Well, if you're a conservative or just smart (excuse the redundancy:p), here's where everything goes South.

Frank is captured by Micro, working with your standard Shadowy Organization. He's told that they want him to hunt Bin Laden. No oversight, but all the weapons he wants. They just cut him loose and he does what he does best. Now, you'd think a man who killed 3,000 (that's THREE THOUSAND) people would trump taking on mobsters. It sounds like we're gonna have a good time, some good old wish-fulfillment revenge with Punisher kicking terrorist ass and taking names.

But, it is not to be. Pun refuses, stating empathically '**** you'. Now, he could say he doesn't trust large organizations under a sort of 'too good to be true' principle (that certainly would have served him well back in Circle of Blood). He could say that the bounty hunters (that's what they would have to be, right? After all, recently a bounty hunter was arrested (http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text9-15-2004-59353.asp) for torturing prisoners to get to Bin Laden.) go Too Far. That's a nice story, how far are you willing to go in war (I'm sure Punisher would say "Well short of interrogating innocent people"). There's even some conspiracy theory stuff in there for the leftists.

But no. Instead he heaps abuse on the War on Terror in general and the CIA in specific.

"Fighting for the people who run the world gets you stabbed in the back. You fight the wars they start and feed. You kill the monsters they create. You die from handling depleted uranium, while they get rich on oil. I’m not going back to war so Colt can sell another million M-16s. I had enough of that in Vietnam.”

He then desecrates the memory of the 60,000 brave Americans whose names are carved in the black wall of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, by stating that they bear silent witness to this twisted viewpoint.

What's worse, his rant goes COMPLETELY UNCHALLENGED by anyone. Everyone just concedes "Yeah, you're right, that's the way it is." I haven't seen such arrogance outside of Steven (http://www.jabootu.com/ondeadlyground.htm) Seagal (http://www.jabootu.com/patriot.htm) movies.

Of course, Punisher has a lot of right to decry the Iraq war. I mean, it's not like HE'S ever tortured prisoners. Oh, wait... But hey, it's not like HE ever launched a pre-emptive strike against murderous criminals... oh wait, there was that one time I like to call HIS ENTIRE LIFE! If anything, Punisher would be saying that they should have attacked Iraq sooner, or finished the job back in the Gulf War, or even (if you absolutely MUST bash Bush, which I think is Ennis' state of mind) that it was the right war but shouldn't have been bolstered by possibly inaccurate charges of WMDs.

Pretty soon, we have the CIA get into the act and they provide the Straw Men so that no intellectually dishonest debate tactic can be avoided. In this case, the Straw Men are an Ee-vil branch of the CIA (pardon the redundancy, Ennis seems to say) composed of an evil villain ("When the war in Afghanistan was annouced," he smirks smugly, "I thought what [everyone else in the CIA] thought: cocaine."), an incompetent coward who gets his balls cut off and placed in a paper cup (in another example of Ennis' growing mean-spiritedness), and a pardoned criminal (!) who often comments about how everything about Punisher gets her wet (!!). I wonder if Ennis would like to share his view that everyone in the CIA is a drug-dealing ******* aroused by psychotic vigilantes with the families of the intelligence agents killed in the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon or in the War on Terror.

And the story is as unrealistic as ever. One Mafia assassin takes an amount of punishment that puts Jason Voorhees to shame. Another is able to kill off a highly-trained team of CIA troops.

Ennis is condemning the War on Terror... it's just a giant corporate conspiracy designed to make money. Yeah, Ennis, it was probably Dick Cheney himself who had planes flown into the World Trade Center. And those evil corporate crooks just want to start wars to destroy the world. Yeah, that's it Ennis... there are evil men in suits with briefcases plotting to destroy the world and we can't see them... you've got it all figured out.And people say conservatives are paranoid...

Does Ennis have a right to free speech? Yes. And so do I... I have a right to complain about his BS. Comic books are just that... comic books. They're not designed to make political statements... liberal or conservative. They are there to entertain us. People don't spend their hard-earned money on Punisher comics so they can read the same old "Blame America First" crap...they buy Punisher comics because they want to read about a vigilante fighting a one-man war on crime. Sure sounds like a right-wing comic to me, but don't worry....I'm not saying Punisher should have a conservative bias...it shouldn't have any bias. It's a comic book. If Ennis wants to express his opinions, then he can do so on his own time and stop trying to spread his subtle propaganda through the minds of comic book readers.

In other words, what we have here is a character that, while not conservative, definitely holds a SPECIAL APPEAL to conservatives (a certain 'hang 'em high' mentality) being used as a mouthpiece for hippie bull****, DRIVING AWAY conservative readers (I know I was). Something in the Marvel editing office should have told Ennis to tone it done before he drove away his readership. Unfortunately, no one did. Pity. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only guy who would like to see Punisher in the Middle East, tearing the terrorists a new *******.

You can argue the merits and demerits of conservatism all you like. The fact remains that Ennis is clearly anti-conservative, pandering to the 'hip young liberal' crowd that wanted a swingin' bachelor Peter. And I don't see why a character who exists to provide the vicarious thrill of 'doing what the law can't' needs to be alienating a part of its audience by Bush-bashing. Would you support a comic that portrayed women as incompetent, flighty ditzs? Or blacks as cowardly, thieving slackers? Or Jews as greedy merchants?

Honestly, what next? A big talk about how we're poisoning the environment while Punisher burns someone alive? A spiel about endangered owls after Punisher shoots a gangster in the face? Punisher going around killing lumberjacks with chainsaws to save the rain forest? Defending affirmative action against the KKK? Laying mines for frivolous lawsuit ninjas? Running over purveyors of red meat in a Ford Taurus? Dropping bombs on shock artists? Castrating those who implement the internal combustion engine? Taking a bolt cutter to the fingers of fast food employees ("You McDonald's bastards won't fatten up another child ever again!")? Blowing up an abortion clinic? Confiscating guns from private citizens with extreme prejudice? I mean, do we buy the book to see Punisher kill crooks or to be lectured by Garth Ennis?

Frankly, fiction is supposed to provide a sanctuary from the partisanship and other complexitites of the world, especially escapist fiction like the Punisher which has the entire premise of a man going around and ruthlessly executing criminals with no regard for the law or Constitutional rights being a GOOD thing (see Mystic River for a more realistic portrayal of the dangers of vigilantism. Hell, see the old practice of LYNCHING). It's a vicarious thrill. We tire of criminals walking around free, the government being unable or unwilling to do anything about it, and thus 'make up' a response, a fantastic response. A one-man war on crime, ridiculously professional and talented, going against unbelievably vicious, evil criminals and coming out of each fight the winner.

I also don't see how the concept of drug-dealing, evil CIA agents working for a corrupt government is so novel that it just HAS to be written. I mean, if you're into that thing, there's always EVERY STEVEN SEAGAL MOVIE EVER MADE! Honestly. I'm betting Marvel would sell much more books having Punisher take on the terrorists. I bet on this board alone, there's more interest in Punisher going after Al Quade then a cliched "blow up the black helicopters" romp.

It's always fun to be preached at when you agree with the preacher. That's why liberals go to see Michael Moore movies, so they can nod sagely and laugh at the conservatives. But I tire of this 'boy's club' mentality among comics. Remember how women used to be treated, as sex objects, to be placed in skimpy bikinis and drawn with DD (no offense to Matt Murdock) breasts? Because 'women didn't read comics'? Well, the exact same thing is happening with conservatives. Because 'conservatives don't read comics', it's okay to make fun of them, desirable even. Well, this is one conservative that does read comics and doesn't appreciate being mocked.

This isn't about politics, or at least not entirely. It's about the demonization of those whose idealogical views differ from your own. It's about people who say that Bush is worse then Hitler. It's about smearing people and inserting propoganda into otherwise enjoyable media. It's about being cliche and unimaginative. It's about obvious pandering, 'look at us, we're so cool, we swear and make fun of conservatives!' I see no reason why Punisher or any other character should have a sign over them that says 'conservatives keep out. Liberals only can enjoy this'.

[DBM]

Wow, Zev, that's a long post.

I did a word count and it's almost 2000 words.

[Majin Boo]

maximum clonage
the whole Hal Jordan/Parallax thing
awesome comics

[Abaddon]

What's so bad about the new ASM arc? I've not picked it up for a while, not since that Green gangster dude.


Gwen cheated on Peter and had kids with Norman Osborn.:rolleyes:


*vomits at the thought of it*

:(

[NightRiver]

The worst moment in comics for me right now is when Nightwing watched Tarantula kill Blockbuster and did nothing to stop it. Now he's reduced to a whiny, little boy, being bossed around by a hoochie wearing a costume. Ugh!

[Zev]

Wow, Zev, that's a long post.

I did a word count and it's almost 2000 words.

And they're ALL good.

[Gambit8370]

Now he's reduced to a whiny, little boy, being bossed around by a hoochie wearing a costume. Ugh!

Never under-estimate costume wearing hoochies.

They weild a power over us like none other.

[TheCorpulent1]

The big reveal in the last issue of ASM was a pretty big letdown for me, actually. Pretty recent, but still high on the crap factor.

[TheAdmiral]

Good post, Zev. That's why I stopped reading Punisher, because Ennis turned it into a political platform for his ideas.

[TheCorpulent1]

I like Ennis' Punisher 'cause there's lots of squishy organs being tossed about. :)

[danielisthor]

Great Lakes Avengers.

[danielisthor]

Never under-estimate costume wearing hoochies.

They weild a power over us like none other.


that is sooooo true. :)

[Cosmic]

I like FF #243...it's got some of the best dialogue from Galactus I've ever seen, a bunch of Marvel's best heroes with great characterization, and it's really just a good, solid all-around book. I don't think Galactus, a nearly godlike being, can really be compared to Hitler. Galactus's nature is explained to some extent in that very comic. He can't really empathize with the suffering of mere mortals, or understand the value of life. Galactus is an incredbly powerful being who is tragically and eternally doomed to eat planets to survive. He doesn't do it for pleasure, or for personal gain. He does it because he HAS to. Reed understands this, and even says himself that he doesn't see Galactus as evil.

Concerning Spider-Man and DD watching from afar: what could they really do to help fight Galactus? Nothing. As DD explains, they would just be getting in the way.

[X]

Actually, I've seen Galactus "sad" more then once... He can understand the pain he causes and all that, but he's simply really far withdrawn and he does what he has to do. He also himself once asked a bunch of humans if they "would not step on an ant hill to survive" every once in a while. I know I make him sound kinf of shallow, but meh, it's a lot deeper then that.

I remember in an issue of Rom he made it aboard Galactus's ship and he saw all of these beatiful things he had taken from different civilizations, allowed them to live on in ways. It was shown he cherished them quite a bit when Rom destroyed everything to force his attention.

Galactus usually also gives a planet 24 hours to leave.

[Cosmic]

Good point...it's not that he's incapable of empathizing with smaller life forms, it's just that he's very, very far-removed. But it's still not the same thing as a mass murderer or genocidal conqueror. I think the story works, as it is. Far from being one of the worst moments in comics! I'm thinking more along the lines of Super-Spidey punching the Hulk into orbit, or flying around and fighting giant robots. Those were some pretty memorable *blech* moments.

[Dread]

It seems that many officially "bad" moments have been declared en masse by replies. Such as The Clone Saga, the start of the new Excaliber, and so on.

Here's another famous worst from a few years ago that may have fallen through the sands of time, thankfully, but I won't forget this, either.

Forgive me if my numbers aren't perfect.

Avengers # 390 & Avengers: Timeslide, 1996.

Ah, the mid-late 90's. The Clone Saga was still in swing, Captain America's days of wearing a dopey armored suit were still in fresh memory (circa Captain America #444-445, 1995, at least, another famous worst), and believe it or not, Spider-Man wasn't the only character being butchered.

Here was Iron Man's turn for the crapper.

The definition of a "ret-con", at least in my eyes, is: a story or statement written in the future that alters a story or statement made in the past. The irony is that Marvel usually dishes out retcons left and right, and these stories are often the main causes of a lot of blunders, both continuity-wise and story wise. The 90's were muddled by such bungling, and a return to simular practices now is unsettling (after all, "Dissassembled" is what, barely a decade after the last major Avengers shuffle, "The Crossing"?).

The ret-con this time was that Immortus, who is also the time-travelling foe Kang, who was also Rama Tut (confused?) had been "manipulating" Iron Man since the VERY BEGINNING as a pawn/stooge/spy/plant. That's right, the invincile hero for 40 years has now been undone as a foe's puppet all along. Thrilled yet? Nah. So, Iron Man turns evil and does some damage. The Avengers figure that the only way to beat Iron Man is with a version of himself. So, they pluck a teenage version of Stark ("Arno" Stark) from some alternate timeline (those are always laying around) and have the two duke it out. In the end, the original Tony croaks, and we're stuck with the "fresh", new, hip, rad, fly, and flashin' teenage version (since, I guess, they thought fans can't relate to anyone not a teenager).

Which stunk.

Yes, this was the version of Iron Man that sacrificed himself with the rest of the Avengers to beat Onslaught.

Thankfully, in Heroes Reborn and afterwards, "Arno" Stark was forgotten and "remerged" with the original.

But this serves as a reminder that Spider-Man wasn't the only character butchered in the mid-late 90's.

[TheCorpulent1]

I remember in an issue of Rom he made it aboard Galactus's ship and he saw all of these beatiful things he had taken from different civilizations, allowed them to live on in ways. It was shown he cherished them quite a bit when Rom destroyed everything to force his attention. Wow. I so would've vaporized Rom for that. Then I would've gone back to his planet, killed all the other Spaceknights, and pissed on their corpses. What an ass...

[euroq]

The ret-con this time was that Immortus, who is also the time-travelling foe Kang, who was also Rama Tut (confused?) had been "manipulating" Iron Man since the VERY BEGINNING as a pawn/stooge/spy/plant. That's right, the invincile hero for 40 years has now been undone as a foe's puppet all along. Thrilled yet? Nah. So, Iron Man turns evil and does some damage. The Avengers figure that the only way to beat Iron Man is with a version of himself. So, they pluck a teenage version of Stark ("Arno" Stark) from some alternate timeline (those are always laying around) and have the two duke it out. In the end, the original Tony croaks, and we're stuck with the "fresh", new, hip, rad, fly, and flashin' teenage version (since, I guess, they thought fans can't relate to anyone not a teenager).

Which stunk.

Yes, this was the version of Iron Man that sacrificed himself with the rest of the Avengers to beat Onslaught.

Thankfully, in Heroes Reborn and afterwards, "Arno" Stark was forgotten and "remerged" with the original.


:eek: :eek: Just reading that made me angry, how stupid. Let me guess, Terry Kavanaugh and/or Bob Harras were behind this great idea?

[Zev]

I like FF #243...it's got some of the best dialogue from Galactus I've ever seen, a bunch of Marvel's best heroes with great characterization, and it's really just a good, solid all-around book. I don't think Galactus, a nearly godlike being, can really be compared to Hitler. Galactus's nature is explained to some extent in that very comic. He can't really empathize with the suffering of mere mortals, or understand the value of life. Galactus is an incredbly powerful being who is tragically and eternally doomed to eat planets to survive. He doesn't do it for pleasure, or for personal gain. He does it because he HAS to. Reed understands this, and even says himself that he doesn't see Galactus as evil.

Concerning Spider-Man and DD watching from afar: what could they really do to help fight Galactus? Nothing. As DD explains, they would just be getting in the way.

Reed not thinking Galactus is evil is a classic case of overthinking. The man EATS PLANETS. Certainly we can all agree that what he does is evil, monstrously evil even, and that the galaxy would be a much better place without a nigh-omnipotent being eating planets at random. That some **** was pulled about him being 'tied into the universe' at a much later date does not excuse the original decision.

[Roughneck]

ENNIS SUCKS


I shotened it a little cause it was long Zev, but I whole heartedly agree with you.

[X]

Wow. I so would've vaporized Rom for that. Then I would've gone back to his planet, killed all the other Spaceknights, and pissed on their corpses. What an ass...

Heh, well, Terrax was attempting to kill a bunch of Spaceknights and Galador wasn't too far off from being eaten by the big G. There wasn't any other way to get his attention, at all, so Rom struck close to home. Spaceknights kicked the **** out of Terrax though, it was funny seeing him thinking he was all bad ass and just getting taken apart by a well led, versatile team of Spaceknights.

[TheCorpulent1]

Reed not thinking Galactus is evil is a classic case of overthinking. The man EATS PLANETS. Certainly we can all agree that what he does is evil, monstrously evil even, and that the galaxy would be a much better place without a nigh-omnipotent being eating planets at random. That some **** was pulled about him being 'tied into the universe' at a much later date does not excuse the original decision.
At the risk of using a cliche, how is eating planets any different from your eating meat or plants? You're still killing other living things for your own sustenance. It's horrible for the people who get caught up in it, but it's basically an act of nature.

[Zev]

At the risk of using a cliche, how is eating planets any different from your eating meat or plants? You're still killing other living things for your own sustenance. It's horrible for the people who get caught up in it, but it's basically an act of nature.

There aren't any people on plants of meat. However, even if this were a good analogy (which it isn't), don't the things I eat have the right to defend themselves? I mean, if I'm out hunting in the woods and a bear mauls me, I'm not gonna ***** about it, I was TRYING TO KILL THE BEAR! What did I expect was going to happen, he was this gonna line up, "Please in the back of the head, sir, make it quick and painless." No!

Galactus was going to die entirely as a result of his own actions. He was the one who pursued Terrax all the way to Earth, heedless of his own starvation, then (after disposing of Terrax) annouced his intention to eat the planet to all present. All present happened to include several superheros, who soundly thumped him. Reed and the others resuscitated Galactus with the CLEAR KNOWLEDGE he would resume eating planets, POSSIBLY EVEN THEIR OWN, and with no knowledge that he fulfilled a 'cosmic purpose'. I am 100% sure that that little 'Trial of Galactus' tale was inserted just to cover Bryne's own ass (love to see the reader mail from that day, as they're bound to include some letters that can sum up how utterly, utterly STUPID, almost SUICIDAL, Reed's actions were). Even if Reed DID KNOW that Galactus served a cosmic purpose, I'd expect him to share that with the other superheroes instead of just babble about the 'sanctity of life' and send a merciless multiple AND mass murderer out to continue his deadly business. And THAT is why Reed saving Galactus' life is grade-A bull****.

Now, this one is a much smaller (briefer?) Worst Moment then others up to now, but it still grates. If 'We must save Galactus!' was a trip to the dentist, this is something stuck in your teeth.

Ezekiel/Morlun, Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 30-35

I rolled my eyes so much that I was afraid the rubber band would break when Ezekiel asked "Which came first, the spider or the radiation?" I just hate all this existencial, mystical crap (one of the reasons I'm not looking forward all that much to I Heart Huckabee's (what a pretentious title!). I'm kinda like Jude Law's character, "Wait, what does that even MEAN?"). Because I know, I KNOW, that whenever some big, world-shattering event like this happens, it's never going to become part of canon, but just drag on and on and on and ON until it's finally refuted by the next writer (which doesn't mean it can't be a fun ride. See Grant Morrison's New X-Men. Emma/Scott 4 Eva!).

But... ugh... there are totemistic forces that represent powers from the beginning of time. Peter is a true representative of the 'spider totem' and there are pretenders to other totems who have sought his destruction (i.e. Doc Ock, Scorpion, Rhino, etc). And there's a hunter who feeds off true representatives (avatars is SUCH a cooler word for it... especially since the word avatar means someone who puts on a mask to gain the power of their God. Freaky coinkydink, no?) named Morlun. Who's bad. He's real bad. Bad to the bone, bad for life. 2 bad 2 quit.

Now, your mileage may vary for this so it's more of a personal pet peeve then a real worst moment.

But when Spider-Man says "I've fought every kind of nutball on the planet… you're the first one who's really ticked me off!" are we HONESTLY supposed to believe JMS thinks that for the last 400+ issues (not counting guest appearances, team-ups, minis, etc) Spider-Man has NEVER, EVER GOTTEN ANGRY AT A VILLAIN? C'mon, JMS. We both know that's bull****.

[The Thing]

Great Lakes Avengers.
Come on Big Bertha was a great Avenger

[stiltman]

Some good one's here. Let's see....

1. Cap Wolf. Nuff said.
2. The entire Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan run on the FF. Horrible.
3. In timely fashion after the '92 LA riots, the Punisher becomes black. Weak.
4. "Inferno" was the last time till recently I read any X-books.
5. Secret Wars II. Greg Brady perm in a bright white jumpsuit.

Worst for comics in general:

Silver Surfer #50. Good story, but also the first foil-embossed cover, thus kicking off the Gimmick Age of Comics. Afterward, every other issue on the stands was holo-grafix foil-embossed, glow-in-the-dark, poly-bagged with variant cover art and assorted collectible trading cards inside. Style, no substance.

Speaking of no substance, Image Comics in general, and the impact they made on the industry early on. Pretty to look at, and that's about it.

FYI, I saw some here talking about John Byrne appearing as himself in an issue of FF. That was all part of Assistant Editor's Month at Marvel, which for one month all titles had something goofy like that. Byrne also popped up in an issue of The Thing(funny stuff). Spider Man teamed up with the cast of SNL to fight the Silver Samuri. The Avengers made a guest spot on David Letterman, get attacked on the show by a B-list villain, and get their butts kicked on camera till Dave himself steps in. And Captain America's girlfriend Bernie Wrightson became Bernie America and battled MoSkull, a combination of MODOK and the Red Skull. True story. All of it was tongue in cheek, a bit campy, but amusing at the same time.

[X]

Silver Surfer #50 is one of my personal favorite comics. Great, great stuff. I really don't think that should be thought of as the beginning of all that cover BS. :o

[The Hero]

FYI, I saw some here talking about John Byrne appearing as himself in an issue of FF. That was all part of Assistant Editor's Month at Marvel, which for one month all titles had something goofy like that. Byrne also popped up in an issue of The Thing(funny stuff). Spider Man teamed up with the cast of SNL to fight the Silver Samuri. The Avengers made a guest spot on David Letterman, get attacked on the show by a B-list villain, and get their butts kicked on camera till Dave himself steps in. And Captain America's girlfriend Bernie Wrightson became Bernie America and battled MoSkull, a combination of MODOK and the Red Skull. True story. All of it was tongue in cheek, a bit campy, but amusing at the same time.
Plus,let's not forget...

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,marvel_teamup,137.jpg

GOLDEN OLDIE!!!
(which was actualy a fun little parody of those Hosstess ad's from the 80's.Some people just took it a little to seriously,I guess)

[The Hero]

And on the whole John Byrne thing,anyone remember Claremont's first run on X-Men?There where cameos by himself,Stan Lee,Jack Kirby,Dave Cockrum,and other comic book icons all the time.

Anyway,I am submitting a new worst moment called....

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,marvel_swimsuit_special,1993.jpg

I mean...just look at it.It is an abomination to all that the comic book medium stands for.

Plus,Rogue looks like a crackhead.:o

[X]

Bwhahhaha. :)

[Unthinkable]

Hawkeye's death, even though it was kind of funny. I learned one thing from it though:

STOP, DROP, AND ROLL, MORON!

[BigAl42]

STOP, DROP, AND ROLL, MORON!


Fair play, that was pretty funny...

[Bat-Mantis]

There aren't any people on plants of meat. However, even if this were a good analogy (which it isn't), don't the things I eat have the right to defend themselves? I mean, if I'm out hunting in the woods and a bear mauls me, I'm not gonna ***** about it, I was TRYING TO KILL THE BEAR! What did I expect was going to happen, he was this gonna line up, "Please in the back of the head, sir, make it quick and painless." No!Corps point (I think) was that to Galactus, humans and planets are just food. Sort of like how we see plants and some animals.
The thing is, human decency kicks in when we're eating a species into extinction. Sure there are exceptions, but most people agree that wiping an entire species off the planet is a bad thing.
That's where the analogy really kinda falters. Humans may hunt deer, but our conscience would tell us not to destroy their whole species in the process unless it was completely necessary. Galactus eats entire planets, killing billions and destroying countless civilizations in the process. Annihilating all of it from the universe. Force of nature or not, allowing something to continue to do that is… pretty evil. It’d be like a guy learning how to cure AIDS but keeping it a secret because AIDS is a product of nature.

[Zev]

Thou Shalt Not Kill, Captain America 321+

One of the things you’ll notice is that I’m a conservative (of course, if you just noticed this, you’re possibly also discovering that Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck are dating. HINT! It ain’t gonna end well). That means that I laugh out loud (or at least give a little giggle) when someone accuses Fox News of being biased, yet Dan Rather… well, you know. Now, I’m a reasonable guy, I can put up with a few Bush jokes once in a while, no harm done. But what gets to me is propaganda. Like Michael Moore. I HATE when people just make **** up to justify being against something. If your case is so weak that you have to fake stuff (Piltdown Man, anyone?), maybe you should think about switching sides.

Which brings us to Mark Gruenwald. The man’s amazing. He wrote Captain America for TEN YEARS and it only got bad at the end (which we’ll cover in due time. Jack Flag… ugh!). He invented the Serpent Society, Squadron Supreme, Scourge (who was like the Punisher, but killed Turner D. Century. Then things got all convoluted), Super-Patriot, and Crossbones! And most impressively, he managed to keep his own politics out of the title for the most part (with some rather glaring exceptions, like his insistence that Cap represented not the (Republican) government but ‘THE AMERICAN DREAM!’). And his complaints against ‘jingoistic’ (read: conservative) heroes, which has no place in a comic book about Captain AMERICA! Or his all too obvious disgust at and deck stacking against US Agent and the Watch-Dogs (notably, US Agent observes that the villainous Watch-Dogs “believe everything I do!”). But I still have a soft spot for US Agent. So refreshing to see a guy go completely ape**** when his loved ones are killed rather then the clichéd ‘beat them within an inch of their lives, then take them to the authorities.’ For every nine instances of Cap being an inspiring, nonpartisan character, there was one where he was so completely and obviously “just for liberals” (I’m not sure, but I believe Gruenwald once said that Cap didn’t represent Reagan conservatives), featuring Cap sanctimoniously pontificating and self-righteously whining about why the whole country couldn’t be as great as he was. But one instance of liberal thinking is particularly maddening because it’s SO against the spirit of the character (I have this thing about political messages like Daredevil supporting vigilante murders, you know, going against the characters). It’s contained herein.

The cover of Captain America 321, “Ultimatum,” shows Cap holding an Uzi and blazing away, his face twisted in hatred. Exciting stuff, right? What diabolical force could drive Cap to pick up a gun and use (presumably) lethal force? Well, that’s going to be answered and this isn’t a bait and switch, but it’s what happens after the fact that’s notable for sheer awfulness.

And before I get started, someone said to me that other nations wanted to help out in Iraq, but Bush ‘pushed them away.’ At that point I realized I was dealing with a fanatic and left the thread. I wonder what would happen if I had remained. “Don’t you remember? France, Germany, and Russia all wanted to get themselves a piece of Saddam, but Bush rolled up his sleeves and said ‘No! This time… IT’S PERSONAL!’”

Basically, Flag-Smasher (he’s a Worst Moment for another time) has assembled a team of terrorists. Using rocket skis, you know, skis with rockets on the back (!), he hijacks an airliner. In a brief aside, Cap gives an American flag blazer to a little kid who’s helping him with his computer network (this being 1986, the writer is only a little more aware of the Internet then Cap himself). Cap even takes off his mask to eat dinner with them (Spider-Man 2 haters, bite your tongues!). And the kid’s mother is rather obviously wanting to jump Cap’s bones. Of course, the kid interrupts them before Cap can request political asylum in the single mother’s vulva (hey, you try writing sexual innuendos for a patriotic character, see how you end up!).

ULTIMATUM, Flag-Smasher’s evil organization (why is it that every villain has to have a whole organization of underlings now? Stupid Goblin Cult…), want Captain America to surrender to them or they’ll execute all the hostages.

Flag-Smasher, in case you’re wondering, is one of those ‘good cause, bad person’ villains (you know the kind) who in this case wants to completely abolish nationalism. Hmmm, maybe he should devote himself to making multilaterialism look good by actually getting the UN to, you know, CARRY OUT their threats once in a while. Just in case you were wondering, ULTIMATUM stands for Underground Liberated Totally Integrated Mobile Army To Unite Mankind. Man, I’d hate to think of a Mobile Army that wasn’t underground or liberated or almost integrated but not quite. Those are the worst kind! ULTIMATUM is obviously, and I mean OBVIOUSLY, one of those organizations that takes a pre-existing word and then makes it into an acronym later (I’d love to see how HYDRA did this. “Okay, how ‘bout… HYDRA!” “That’s great, but what does it stand for?” “Who cares, no one’s going to ask!”). Flag-Smasher and his slightly-more-pathetic-for-the-fact-that-they’re-willingly-in-the-presence-of-Flag-Smasher assistants (since they’re under Flag-Smasher, would that make them Mild-Flag-Agitators?) probably thought, hey, we’re going to be making an ultimatum, why not call ourselves ULTIMATUM!? Of course, it’s my experience that the people who blab about how, like, it would be so great if everyone just, you know, got rid of their nukes and called each other brother, man, would be so radical, dude! They’re really more likely to smoke pot, watch the Daily Show, and get a latte from Starbucks then form an organization devoted to pure evil. Well, except for Greenpeace. Ba-dum-CHING!

Cap decides to find the hostages before Flag-Smasher’s deadline (and you just know FS ripped off the hyphen from Spider-Man) and free them. SHIELD gives Cap a lead (SHIELD being another case of ‘name first, acronym later’) and the Sentinel of Liberty quickly lands in the Swiss Alps, wearing a parka over his more ubiquitous costume. In short order, Cap finds an ULTIMATUM sentry station, busts in, and takes out the guards. He demands to know where the hostages are, to which the conscious guard laughs in his face. C’mon, Cap, you fought in WW2! You don’t have to take that **** from him!

“Have you ever wondered how much pressure it takes to cause permanent damage to the ligaments in a hand? Want to find out?” Cap asks and I don’t think he means rhetorically.

But the terrorist calls his bluff. “You are far too honorable to torture for information!” Of course, one could argue that it’s more honorable to do what needs to be done to save OVER A HUNDRED INNOCENT LIVES (if you knew that Al Qaeda was planning another 9/11 terror attack and you KNEW that one terrorist knew the specifics, wouldn’t you torture him to find out when, where, and how?). I mean, when your own life is on the line, you can be as nice as you want, but you have no right to put your own morals over the lives of others. Just my opinion. Of course, since this is a comic book, and Cap is Good and Virtuous and True, Cap just pops him one (after being attacked, natch) and dresses in his uniform. But he needs a gun ‘as a prop’ to fit in.

Cap manages to infiltrate the enemy base, yadda yadda yadda, and finally makes it to a monastery where the hostages are being held. He cozies up to one of the guards (“Urgent message from Flag-Smasher to hand deliver!”), then knocks him out, thinking “I can’t believe Flag-Smasher’s pushed me this far! Every second that goes by I’m forced to compromise my ideas of fighting fair!” Shut UP, pussy! You fought in WW2!

Cap starts taking out the rest of the terrorists one by one, but they quickly discover him. He throws his shield to take out on of the two terrorists guarding the hostages, but the other opens fire into the crowd. So the only thing Cap can do is blow him away with his ‘prop’ rifle.

Now, you’d think Cap would be absolutely in the right here. As the narration itself says, it would have taken five seconds to reach the terrorist and take him out hand-to-hand, the gun was simply quicker and saved more lives. But ridiculously, Cap seems to care more about the murderous terrorist he was forced to kill in self-defense then those who were being massacred! That’s the legal definition of self-defense, by the way. The bum was using lethal force, Cap is perfectly within the law to use lethal force to defend himself OR OTHERS! Legally, morally, ethically, Cap is totally and completely in the right. There is no debate here.

Of course, there’d be no problem if Cap devoted as much time to marksmanship as he did to, say, jumping through a hula hoop like a ballerina. Little less Richard Simmons, little more Chuck Heston. Then Cap could just, say, shoot the gun out of the ****er’s hand.

Cap takes the hostages to a bus to get them out of here, even bringing the body of the terrorist onboard! As one of the hostages rightfully asks, “You are bringing the body of that murderer abroad?”

“Yes,” answers the living Legend of WW2. “When you are all safe, I intend to avenge him—and my honor!”

Avenge him? Avenge HIM? Why not avenge the four hostages that the terrorist killed in cold blood? And your honor? **** your honor, you stupid, stupid, STUPID son of a *****! What are you thinking? Is he seriously implying that the act of killing to save lives (that’s what SOLDIERS do) is somehow DISHONORABLE? Regrettable, maybe. But dishonorable? Give me a ****ing break!

In the next issue, Cap drops the jawbreaker that “I believe that guns are for killing and killing is the ultimate violation of individual rights—the ultimate denial of freedom. I never carry a gun. I have never taken another person’s life.”

Wow, Cap. I didn’t know you enjoyed BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE so much. YOU FOUGHT IN WW2! This bull**** about Cap not being a killer is just that, bull****. Cap is a soldier first, superhero second. That’s his gimmick. So either he never killed anyone in World War 2 (BULL****!) or he sincerely believes that he never killed anyone during the war, a dangerous delusion, or he has rationalized to himself that the casualties he caused in the war weren’t really killing, also a dangerous delusion, or he really meant that he never killed anyone after the war. I can accept that he doesn’t enjoy killing (what rational human being would?), but as a soldier, he must be aware that sometimes killing is necessary. This is the worst kind of doublespeak, the kind that uses a character as a mouthpiece against their own political leanings.

In issue 323, Cap meets with senior SHIELD agent Jasper Sitwell. Sitwell claims “the State Department is up to their necks in bureaucracy trying not to have you extradited to Switzerland—where you’d stand trial for manslaughter.” BULL****! Cap didn’t commit manslaughter (and if anyone’s familiar with American law and extradition, it should be Cap). Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of one human being by another without the express or implied intent to do injury. Nowhere does causing a murderer’s own death in the interests of stopping him from actively killing others put Cap or anyone else on the same legal or moral footing as the terrorist. The suggestion is morally repugnant. It’s like saying, no, it IS saying, that to defend yourself to the point of killing your attacker, even if they are trying to kill you or others, is wrong.

Therefore, the Swiss have no reason to extradite Cap. At most, they would want him to return and provide a sworn statement in a formal inquiry into the entire incident (which Cap would be happy to provide). In fact, it’s probable that Cap has already given his statement during a two-day mop-up that Sitwell refers to. Perhaps there weren’t any Swiss government officials present, so they would want to hear the story first-hand, but that would not be a ‘veritable international issue,’ it would be a very confidential inquiry (you DO NOT accuse another country’s war hero/mascot of murder, not even imply it). Gruenwald suggests that Sitwell, who was actually at the time an advanced biological LMD called a Deltoid (see Nick Fury Vs. SHIELD), was misleading Cap, but that just makes Mr. Rogers an idiotic dupe. Sitwell shows a copy of the Daily Bugle instead of a diplomatic dispatch or Swiss newspaper, so he could arguably be trying to trap Cap into working for SHIELD (he offers to ‘retroactively’ make Cap a SHIELD agent, which would make the whole incident A-okay. More on THAT later).

But that isn’t all Cap swallows. Sitwell claims that Cap’s lack of “official sanction” that’s causing the incident. Since when are officially sanctioned agents (such as SHIELD) the only ones who can act to protect innocent people? Since never, that’s when. Can you imagine the fuss the NRA, not to mention every other civil libertarian organization, would raise (and rightfully so) over killing in self-defense being outlawed? That would mean that if someone broke into your house and attacked your wife, you wouldn’t be allowed to use lethal force to stop him. It’s bull****, it’s unconstitutional, and it’s… it’s STILL bull****.

Cap wasn’t facing any “licensed to kill” situation, he was trying to prevent innocent people from being gunned down like rabid dogs! For Sitwell to suggest that ANYONE, least of all a man who acts with the mandate of the American government (as the Commission would later claim, Cap is who he is because of the American government AND thus acts at their leisure/tolerance), would need official sanction to stop a murder from continuing to slaughter innocents is positively Orwellian. That Cap buys this without a hint of challenge is ludicrous.

Remember the claim by Sitwell that Cap would be made into a duly-sanctioned agent so that he can “be off scot-free” for his “unsanctioned” kill? Cap says he’ll THINK about it and does just that. WHAT? Especially if Cap truly believes he has dishonored himself by killing that terrorist, if he feels all the guilt and horror he’s portrayed as feeling, he wouldn’t consider for even a second making things worse by going along with a cover-up!

But the reaction of the media and general public is even stupider! The media has gotten the facts from the hostages, over a hundred of them, right? Assuming they have no reason to slime Cap, they would say that Cap was forced to kill a terrorist as a last resort to prevent him from killing even more people. Cap should have a parade thrown in his honor! He should get a medal! For the people of the Marvel Universe to have a different reaction practically makes them a different species! And if the newspapers have brought the manslaughter case against Cap, that means that ALMOST EVERY EDITOR IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE DOESN’T KNOW WHAT MANSLAUGHTER IS! Ever been to Jabootu? Heard of an Idiot World? That’s what Gruenwald has turned 616 into.

Finally, Cap calls a press conference to state the facts, in which he mentions that he doesn’t believe that murder is the solution to any problem (see what I mean about liberalism? This **** is insidious!). By murder, of course, he means any death, from capital punishment to the justifiable homicide that he himself committed. Since when is saving innocent lives, even unto the point of making the decision to cause mortal injury to a murderer WHILE HE IS IN THE PROCESS OF ADDING TO HIS BODY COUNT out of line with the ideals that this country, and therefore Captain America, embody? Since when is that anti-American? I know Cap has profound respect for human life (even a bit too much for a former soldier who’s presumably seen and felt outrage at mass graves, concentration camps, torture chambers, etc.). But this comic makes Cap sound as if he puts the act of defense, manslaughter, and murder on the same moral plane! In short, this kind of attempt to distance Cap from Rambo, Punisher, Wolverine, and the like has ignored as many moral and legal distinctions as Rambo would on his best day, only in the other direction!

Gruenwald and Marvel were raked over the coals in the letter page for this lame ‘twist’ and rightfully so. The whole affair was quickly and quietly dropped, but not before Gruenwald provided a few more overly liberal sermons just so we ‘got it,’ including Cap lecturing some people for playing with water guns (!). I **** you not.

[X]

Heh, you're funny. And not in a good way. :down:

For one, you need to stop being so ****ing political. Secondly, you need to stop looking at things so deeply.That's just it short and sweet. You'll live longer and bug the **** out of less people. :up:

[Zev]

Heh, you're funny. And not in a good way. :down:

For one, you need to stop being so ****ing political. Secondly, you need to stop looking at things so deeply.That's just it short and sweet. You'll live longer and bug the **** out of less people. :up:

I'm sorry, but a soldier thinking he's dishonored himself by committing justifiable homicide (and the subsequent idiocy of the whole SHIELD/Switzerland/extradition nonsense) cries out for high examination. How about a compromise? For my next trick, I'll do something short, sweet, and completely nonpartisan.

Something that was Doomed from the start...

[X]

I didn't say you were wrong, hell, I agree with you on some points, but I still think it really isn't needed. There's enough bull**** that involve politics, in the world and even on The Hype. I just would rather not see any more arguements, bickering, or other petty bull****. Sorry if I came acrost as a bit of a jerk...

[Punisher RULES]

Spider-Man 1995-1998-This was just sad

[X]

I was going to make a thread called "Most Dispointing Comics" or something to that effect, but I guess this is close enough.

The Karate Kid series just sucked, plain and simple. It ran 15 issues, and for like, 11/12 of them the art was terrible, weak characters, bad characterization, and so on. I mean, they finally wisened up and we got a good couple of issues where the art was greatly improved, The Karate Kid's true skill was highlighted, much better characterization, and so on. But then the last two issues sucked terribly once again. It was a crossover with Kamandi. Talking Detective Dogs, Hippie Lobsters, it was just a ****ing nightmare. Just kind of bugs me as Karate Kid is one of my favorite characters and absolutley bleeds potential, but ah well.

[Genis-vell]

Man Zev, you are one angry dude! I read the rant on the punisher but simply didn't have the stomach to do the Captain America one.

I see your point but as it's been said numerous times before - unlike DC, the Marvel Universe is set in the real world (well, you know what I mean) and as such political and world comment will end up playing a part in some storylines.

Okay, Ennis may have gone a little too mental (I think he also turned the Punisher into a bit of a hypercrite too) but let's not worry about it. I actually quite liked the book, I just chalked up the political rhetoric to Ennis trying to ground the character in the 'real world.' <If there was a 'lets all just have a beer' smiley - there would be one right here.>

Still, talking of the political views in comics, it has been suggested that Jurgens run on Thor over the last few years has been a metaphor for America and it's position as the 'world police.'

Ah, screw the politics - no-one writes splattered brains quite like Ennis!;)

[Zev]

Man Zev, you are one angry dude! I read the rant on the punisher but simply didn't have the stomach to do the Captain America one.

I see your point but as it's been said numerous times before - unlike DC, the Marvel Universe is set in the real world (well, you know what I mean) and as such political and world comment will end up playing a part in some storylines.

Okay, Ennis may have gone a little too mental (I think he also turned the Punisher into a bit of a hypercrite too) but let's not worry about it. I actually quite liked the book, I just chalked up the political rhetoric to Ennis trying to ground the character in the 'real world.' <If there was a 'lets all just have a beer' smiley - there would be one right here.>

Still, talking of the political views in comics, it has been suggested that Jurgens run on Thor over the last few years has been a metaphor for America and it's position as the 'world police.'

Ah, screw the politics - no-one writes splattered brains quite like Ennis!;)

I haven't read Jurgens' run on Thor, so I can't comment. If anyone's wondering why I can't do a focused breakdown on famous crappy stuff like the Clone Saga, it's because I just don't have the issues.

But this is not about politics I disagree with. This is about politics the CHARACTERS disagree with. You're telling me a soldier who fought in WW2 thinks you should never, ever kill, EVEN IN SELF-DEFENSE? You're telling me a man who's mission in life is to go around killing gangsters and assorted scum who have never so much as looked at him funny is going to criticize going to war with Saddam?

I just don't like characters being used as a mouthpiece. I would be just as angry if Spider-Man started speaking out against abortion, one, because it's unnecessary and makes it hard for people who are pro-abortion (sorry, pro-CHOICE. I'll never understand how one issue can have two sides that are both 'pro') to enjoy the comic, and two, because it's completely out of left field. As far as we know, Peter Parker HAS NO opinion on abortion and if he does, he ain't sharing it with us. And I'd like to keep it that way, so that everyone, not just liberals or not just conservatives, can enjoy reading about a man who dresses in red and blue tights and goes around beating up pretenders to animal totems.

Wait a minute...

[The Hero]

But when Spider-Man says "I've fought every kind of nutball on the planet… you're the first one who's really ticked me off!" are we HONESTLY supposed to believe JMS thinks that for the last 400+ issues (not counting guest appearances, team-ups, minis, etc) Spider-Man has NEVER, EVER GOTTEN ANGRY AT A VILLAIN? C'mon, JMS. We both know that's bull****.
I don't think JMS realy ment that,I just took it as sort of a in-of-the-moment exaggeration on Spidey's part,not as a cold hard fact.

[Zev]

I don't think JMS realy ment that,I just took it as sort of a in-of-the-moment exaggeration on Spidey's part,not as a cold hard fact.

Well, since you have a quote from me in your sig, I'll allow it. Still, it grates and JMS should have known such a hyperbolic exaggeration wouldn't go unnoticed or uncommented upon. Especially as the quote begins with Spider-Man recounting the various types of baddies he's fought (including his own costume). You'd think Spider-Man would just say "Buddy, you're really pissing me off!" or "I haven't been this pissed off at a villain for a while..."

[Cosmic]

Some of those late, V1 Captain America comics got really crazy. I haven't read that one you mentioned here, Zev (I'd love to dig it up and read it if I had the time, though) but I do remember some pretty weird stuff like Cap and Paladin wearing women's costumes, Cap donning a suit of ridiculous-looking battle armor, and some silly, shameless T&A stories. Gruenwald was an awesome editor, though...he did a lot to make Marvel fun, way back in the '80s. He died some years back...cancer, I think.

[Genis-vell]

I haven't read Jurgens' run on Thor, so I can't comment. If anyone's wondering why I can't do a focused breakdown on famous crappy stuff like the Clone Saga, it's because I just don't have the issues.

But this is not about politics I disagree with. This is about politics the CHARACTERS disagree with. You're telling me a soldier who fought in WW2 thinks you should never, ever kill, EVEN IN SELF-DEFENSE? You're telling me a man who's mission in life is to go around killing gangsters and assorted scum who have never so much as looked at him funny is going to criticize going to war with Saddam?

I just don't like characters being used as a mouthpiece. I would be just as angry if Spider-Man started speaking out against abortion, one, because it's unnecessary and makes it hard for people who are pro-abortion (sorry, pro-CHOICE. I'll never understand how one issue can have two sides that are both 'pro') to enjoy the comic, and two, because it's completely out of left field. As far as we know, Peter Parker HAS NO opinion on abortion and if he does, he ain't sharing it with us. And I'd like to keep it that way, so that everyone, not just liberals or not just conservatives, can enjoy reading about a man who dresses in red and blue tights and goes around beating up pretenders to animal totems.

Wait a minute...
It's a good point, it IS about the character and not the writers point of view although you've now got me wondering - what is Peters view on abortion? :D

[Zev]

It's a good point, it IS about the character and not the writers point of view although you've now got me wondering - what is Peters view on abortion? :D

Depends. Since many political views are inherited, do you think Aunt May and Uncle Ben would raise him to be pro-choice or pro-life?

[Genis-vell]

No clue I'm afraid, judging by his actions as Spider-man you'd have to say he was always pro-life - I'd say that came from Uncle Ben. Aunt may seems to be quite fond of dying! ;)

[Ben Urich]

I think the thread should be retitled "Worst Moments in Comic Books.... if you're a conservative with ENTIRELY too much time on your hands."
I kid, I kid.
Worst for me would have to be this MK Spidey nonsense.
I mean, if you're into comics with horrible characterization and dialogue, then, you know, cool.
That being said...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=17082&item=2273893894&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
The first 6 issues of the series are up on eBay! Bid on them! I need to go to homecoming, and this is the only way it's happening.
...please.
Help. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

You're gonna go to Homecoming on $6? :confused:

[Zev]

Some of those late, V1 Captain America comics got really crazy. I haven't read that one you mentioned here, Zev (I'd love to dig it up and read it if I had the time, though) but I do remember some pretty weird stuff like Cap and Paladin wearing women's costumes, Cap donning a suit of ridiculous-looking battle armor, and some silly, shameless T&A stories. Gruenwald was an awesome editor, though...he did a lot to make Marvel fun, way back in the '80s. He died some years back...cancer, I think.

I got those. Gonna have to cover them. Cap and Paladin had to wear women's costumes as a result of an evil plot to TURN THEM INTO women (!). The battle armor came after Cap was given a utility belt/vest/thing so he wouldn't have to push himself so hard (if he did, it would cause the Super-Soldier Serum to go 'flat' and cripple him. Which begs the question... Why didn't he just settle down with Diamondback and retire? Or at least get a GUN? Not much physical activity required to stop crime there...)

Rocket Racer, Amazing Spider-Man 182

Lord, this is a good one. In the interests of time, I'm only going to descibe the greviously bad examples. Rocket Racer is a guy who appeared a few issues before. I can't remember what happened to him, but presumably Spider-Man decided that anyone who got ripped-off by someone dressed as a French fry and riding a rocket-powered skateboard was either a pussy and deserved to lost their bonds or was secretly turned on by the fact that they were being robbed by a man dressed as a French fry and riding a rocket-powered skateboard and the whole thing was some kind of erotic role-playing. Which is still less embarrassing then being robbed by a man... oh, you know the rest!

Rocket Racer himself is, well, how can I describe him?

http://www.seanbaby.com/stupcom/images/bigwheel3.jpg (normally I'd feel bad about hot-linking an image from a funny website, but since Seanbaby hasn't updated in a while, I figure he has it coming)

Note the totally clear yellow goggles, which do nothing to hide his identity. Or the gigantic headphones he wears in case he has to host a radio talk show while committing a crime. And the little yellow Y on his chest which subtly points directly to his penis, perhaps trying to reassure us that a man who willingly uses a rocket-powerd skateboard to commit crimes actually has one. Or the rocket-powered skateboard, which on the scale of totally retarded gimmicks ranks a perfect ten. Said rocketboard is also MAGNETIC, so he can scale walls and stuff. While looking retarded. Oh, and he can fire rockets from his hands, which I think is a good enough power to go on its own. I mean, look at Shocker? All he goes is shock things, he doesn't try to accessorize with his own blimp or something. Oh, and RR is black. Remember that for later.

We start off on a happy note with Spider-Man trying to block Rocket Racer with a web-blockade in a tunnel, only for a big truck to rip through the webbing, allowing RR through. Tensile strength of steel, anyone? Anyone?

RR ducks into a subway, leading to Spider-Man saying "Move it, mister--I've got an uptown train to derail!" for no other purpose then to kick himself over the possibility of being blamed for derailing trains.

Peter Parker, You've Been A Dumbass: 1

After RR gets away (apparently "Fast as I am, I'm no match for his souped-up skates"), Spider-Man gets onto an idling train (?) and soon gets an entire car to himself.

Meanwhile, RR takes the briefcase he stole to Jackson Weele, a man accused of embezzlement. The briefcase contains all the evidence against Weele, except for the Minerva Document ("It's the most damaging evidence against me.")

RR demands ANOTHER ten thousand to retrieve the Minerva document and leaves, calling Weele "Big Wheel". Well, he doesn't need the little Y, because it definitely takes balls to call SOMEONE ELSE names when you ride a rocket-powered skateboard. It's like Joan Rivers calling someone annoying or Quentin Black calling someone stupid. ****ing hypocritical.

Later, Weele considers jumping off a pier to commit suicide, asking himself why was he such a fool? Why did he keep records of his misdeeds (yeah, you and Richard Nixon both, pal!). RR stops his "brand-new meal ticket" before he can jump and demands the twenty thousand again, apparently not considering that when your demand for more money results in a suicide attempt, maybe he can't pay you and you should be happy with the ten thousand, which is a lot more then a career as a criminal with a rocket-powered skateboard deserves.

"Hey, look at you, turkey. You really thought you were some big wheel, didn't you? Always bossin' around your workers, right, man? Well, you ain't nothin', mister. I'm the big wheel now, fink. I got the power! And I want your money, dig?" RR says, apparently trying to beat the English language into unconsciousness so he can have his way with it.

"You can't keep hounding me, Racer! You can't be everywhere," Weele replies.

"Wanna bet, turkey? The Tinkerer jazzed up my skateboard so I can go anywhere. Wherever you hide, wherever you run, I'll be there watchin' and waitin'! By the way, you got three hours to get the money. Use the time wisely--turkey."

So, what's more embarrassing then having a rocket-powered skateboard? Having to have someone else 'jazz it up' for you. And is RR seriously thinking he can stop a guy from committing suicide from afar? Dude, just get a couple of razor blades. No, get a gun... then you can kill yourself AND Rocket Racer and save everyone a whole bunch of embarrassment.

Should I mention that RR's greed and general *******ry is okay not because he's a black man talking to a jerky white man. No, no, that doesn't excuse anyone. But being black, he has a mother in the hospital and thus has to pay her bills by turning to crime because the Man doesn't care and so on and so forth. Really.

And here's something that's sure to raise the hackles of any feminist (or anyone with good taste, for that matter), as we catch up with a male cop sexually harrassing a female cop (maybe he's attracted to the fact that she's wearing VERY chic glasses).

"C'mon, Helen, we're both single. Nothing in the rules prevents us from dating," Male Chauvinist Pig (MCP) says.

"No way, Frank. While I wear this uniform, I'm not a woman, I'm a police officer." Actually, you're both.

"Sure, sure," New York's Finest replies. "But you're the shapliest flatfoot I've ever seen."

But, comedy ahoy, he receives a radio call that tells him to stop being such a dumbass before he gets the entire city sued for sexual harrassment. Oh, he does not! No, apparently there's a "suspicious lone-man, negroid, on the river drive uptown." And here I thought L.A. had an exclusive on racist cops...

Helen drives, leading to this dialogue.

"Oh yes, one other thing, Frank."

"Uhhh, yeah?"

"Take your hand off my knee."

Ho ho ho! Harassment in the workplace, what a barrel of laughs, eh?

They catch up to Rocket Racer, who's driving in the opposite lane as them. Helen says "My brother used to ride in the demolition derby every weekend. He taught me everything he knew. Hold on tight, Frank. We're hopping the divider."

I think the demolition derby thing is slightly less assuring then "My nephew plays Grand Theft Auto 3 every day. He taught me everything he knew!"

They end up in front of RR, who jumps the car (skateboard and all!) after some Immortal Dialoge. "Hunh? What's goin' on here? That move ain't in the regulations."

You know, maybe that time you spent memorizing 'the regulations' could've been better spent picking out a better gimmick then a ROCKET-POWERED SKATEBOARD.

"Since when did Starsky and Hutch move to the Big Apple?" He asks himself, apparently not familiar with the concept of spin-off (CSI: Starsky & Hutch: NY: Special Victims Unit: Mork & Mindy). "Well, I'll send 'em right back to L.A.--with their ratings flapping between their legs."

I think that's the most incompetent sexual innuendo that's ever been attempted. But think about Helen's day. Not only has she had to put up with being named after the titular character in Raising Helen, but she also has to deal with pick-up lines from MCP and ROCKET RACER. Woman probably dreams of Chameleon hitting on her. At least then she's got someone who can change into Johnny Depp whenever she wants to go on a date. Hey, it's what I'd do if I had shape-shifting powers.

"Did your brother teach you how to handle guys like that?" MCP yells, adding incestual homosexuality to the sexual subtext.

"He didn't have to. Girls instinctively know that sort of thing." Ah yes, ladies, don't you remember sitting down with your mother and getting the talk about how to deal with men dressed like French fries and riding rocket-powered skateboard while driving a police car with your chauvinist partner?

Now, you'd think this would be followed by her doing something cool, right? But no. She loses control of the car.

"Take the wheel! I've lost control!" she says in mid-air, although I don't know what she hopes MCP will do. Air brakes, perhaps?

The next page bizarrely shows that MCP's hat has somehow managed to been pulled down to his neck. "Tell me, did you get your driver's license out of a crackerjack box?"

Add tact to the list of things MCP lacks. I'm pretty sure she feels bad about the fact that your car is currently impaling a billboard already.

Spider-Man happens onto the scene and somehow ends up water-skiing behind RR on a web-ski. Which is a lot better then just punching him, I guess.

Spider-Man's webbing breaks because "Something must be affecting my original formula," (hmmm... what could a white substance that shoots out of your body losing its potency be a metaphor for? Now I think I know why MJ dumps him (oops)) but catches up to Rocket Racer as he skates across the side of a bridge. Spidey lands in front of RR.

"Hi there, handsome. Fancy meeting you here. You pay the bridge toll?"

"No, but I'll play the death toll--with you, web-slinger!"

Okay, you lost me at death toll. Apparently this is 'clever banter' in the same world where man riding rocket-powered skateboard equals 'worthy opponent'.

They fight some more to the tune of Immortal Dialoge.

"Hey Racer--remember what Simon And Garfunkel usedta say about this bridge? Slow down, you're movin' too fast!"

Now I know why they broke up.

"Real nice lyrics, Web-Head. A shame they'll be your last recorded words!"

You know, unless you're recording his words right now, they won't be. Oh, and on the 'intimidating dialogue' scale, this ranks a little below "Sorry about hitting you. You looked like my wife at this angle, is all."

Rocket Racer gets away again, leading Spidey to ask himself "Well, frankly-- who gives a hairy bongo?" Try North Star. I'm pretty sure he has a lot of experience with 'hairy bongos'.

And that's the end of the issue. Oh, wait, Peter also asks Mary-Jane to marry him. THAT'S the end of the issue.

To be concluded in Big Wheel, Amazing Spider-Man 183

[The Hero]

He died some years back...cancer, I think.He even had his ashes mixed in with shredded bits of his Squadron Supreme tpb.:eek:

[The Hero]

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,spiderman_amazing,131.jpg

'Nuff said.:o

[X]

Spider-Man getting knocked out by Aunt May? :D

[Zev]

I still defend my Punisher Worst Moment. Punisher was ALWAYS conceived as a 'do whatever it takes, to hell with the Constitution, civil liberties be damned' type. Take, for instance, Amazing Spider-Man 202. After illegally searching Peter Parker's apartment...

"I apologize for the intrusion, Parker—but for nothing else. The war against crime demands certain liberties be taken."

Yup, this is just the person who's gonna be criticizing the Patriot Act. Uh-huh. :rolleyes:

[Zev]

Big Wheel, Amazing Spider-Man 183

Oh my God. It just doesn't get much better then this. Or, you know, worse. It could be worse. This could be a part of some six-part crossover between every Spidey-title in existence. That's the difference between the stories of today and the stories of yesteryear. When the old guys told a story and it crashed, it was over and done with and they never talked about it again (hence the Living Brain's lack of a comeback).

But I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him. So onto the suckening.

Now, you all know last month (well, not for you or me. In some little known grotto between realtime and Marvel-time) Peter asked Mary-Jane to marry him. So you'd expect we'd get an answer this issue? First thing, in fact? Well, you're SOL. Later we learn that Mary-Jane is still thinking it over, but from Spidey's own thought bubbles in the first few pages, it's implied that she's already accepted! So either Pete Parker is one cocky bastard or he's got a nice glimpse of the future (in which case we should all thank him for trying to dump his clone into an incinerator).

We catch up with Jackson Weele (remember him? The guy whose meanness was an Informed Attribute?), contracting the Tinkerer's services. The code phrase (it's in quotation marks and everything) is "Well, 'I've got a radio that just can't carry a tune!'" Now, we know from last issue all he knows about the Tinkerer is that he gave Rocket Racer his rocket-powered skateboard (sigh), so where he learned the password is anyone's guess.

We also learn that Tinkerer offers two payment plans, cash or a percentage of profits. Considering how rarely the villains succeed in the Marvel U, I doubt the second option would remain on the table for long. Weele says that he only intends to use the devise once, not to make money (so why not hire an assassin? You could say he's skittish after having to deal with jockass Rocket Racer, but still...

Tinkerer pushes past a disco bead curtain (just what every supervillain lair needs, right?), diagnosing Weele as a 'vengeance is mine!' case. He insists on learning about Weele's victim, is told about the Rocket Racer. We learn that RR brought Tinkerer his own design and asked Tink to build it for him, for a quarter of the take. You know, Tink's pretty lucky that one of his clients doesn't blow the **** out of him when he tries to collect.

However, just like Hamlet's fatal flaw was his indecision until it was too late, Weele's is "I don't care what you create, Tinkerer -- as long as I can crush him but good."

In his continuing rant, Weele happens to mention that RR calls him "Big Wheel." Tink offers up "a slight modification of something I was working on for... another potential client." Great. Now the door's open for another Big Wheel!

As soon as Weele leaves, Tinkerer opens some kind of doored crate to reveal his (robotic?) henchman, Toy, who's a massive black man.

"Are you up to assisting me?" Tink asks.

"Toy is already ready to help you, sir."

"Splendid, m'boy, simply splendid."

I don't know what just happened, but I'm sure the Comic Code doesn't approve.

Meanwhile, in Aunt May's hospital room, Spider-Man's aunt JUST SO HAPPENS to be sharing a room with Rocket Racer's mother, who is (of course) a rather heavyset woman with an afro/perm thing. This stuff practically writes itself. She doesn't want him to commit crimes, he needs money to pay the bills for her, yadda yadda yadda. Because Heaven Forbid we have a black villain that's simply greedy or evil instead of misunderstood or a Robin Hood (see the Prowler or White Tiger in an upcoming Worst Moment. Of course, he's Hispanic, but the Minority Who Turns To Crime To Help People stereotype remains painfully intact).

Outside, Peter spars with Aunt May's physician, Doctor Tompkins. Tompkins' entire character is that he's a sassy ***** to Peter because he doesn't think he's a good nephew.

"Well, if it isn't May Parker's semi-attentive nephew," he sneers. "How good of you to come here, Parker--five minutes before visiting hours end."

You know, something tells me that Tompkins has forgotten what it's like to be a teenager.

For some reason, Peter's spider-sense goes off as he approaches Aunt May's room (apparently reacting to an out-of-costume supervillain who isn't threatening anyone at the moment). So, what does Peter do? He busts in as Spider-Man.

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 2

After tossing RR's civilian alter-ego out on his ass, said alter-ego hurries into a utility room as Spidey deals with some guards. He comes out, since he wears his duds (emphasis on 'dud') under his clothes according to the script. Well, where does he keep his rocket-powered skateboard (sigh)? You know what, on second thought, I really don't want to know.

RR busts into the hospital room, where Spider-Man has webbed both guards to the ceiling. Ha, maybe when the webbing dissolves they'll fall to the ground and break their necks! That'll teach 'em to try and do their jobs!

The fight ends, temporarily at least, with Spidey throwing RR out a window. But the rocketboard (sigh) is radio-controlled and speeds down the side of wall, then uses an awning as a half-pipe to launch itself into open air and catch RR (which means he's now falling at terminal velocity with a rocketboard on his feet, but lets ignore physics for the moment). RR angles himself so as to skip across the roofs of two cars and land on the street, "slowin' myself down just perfect." And yes, this is all fully as dumb as it sounds.

They fight some more, but just before RR can apply the finishing touches to Spidey, someone fires a machinegun at him. RR dodges out of the way (on foot, no less! When did he get superhuman agility?) and comes face to face with THE BIG WHEEL.

Now, usually when people want revenge they usually hire a hitman or buy a gun. What kind of angst does it take to dress-up as a merry-go-round and go out in public? I think that's why Big Wheel's lasted so long as a villain. Because, much as we hate to admit it, ANY ONE OF US could be called a Big Wheel by a Solid Gold reject and snap.

Now, what Weele should have gone was spent all that money on cosmetic surgery, gone on Jenny Jones, and invited Rocket Racer. They Used to be a Geek-- Now They're Totally CHIC.

Which reminds me. The last time someone took an insulting nickname for a superhero monkier, we got Daredevil. Maybe Big Wheel's just waiting for Frank Miller to write him to make his big breakout. Aren't you in the mood for "Big Wheel Born Again?"

And how long until we get a superhuman named Braceface or Butthole?

Big Wheel calls RR a "snivelling little snit" (you just KNOW that isn't what he was thinking) and fires a rocket at him. RR flees by zig-zagging through a crowed parking lots, saying "no man catches the Rocket Racer -- 'less I want 'im to!"

Oh, I imagine RR wants to be 'caught' quite a lot...

Big Wheel tramples over all the cars, just as you'd expect. "Where are you, Racer? You can't hide from me forever. I'll find you, punk--then your bones will be ground to dust between my molybdenum steel treads!"

RR calls Big Wheel a turkey (careful, RR! Come next Thanksgiving, he might dress up as one and seek his revenge on you!) and fires his wrist rockets, a weapon far too cool to be used by RR, at Big Wheel.

"My outer shell revolves so swiftly it explodes your rockets long before they can get near me," Big Wheel explains as the missiles explode ineffectually. I don't think we've seen this cool a cripple fight since the Jimmy-Timmy battle in South Park. I only hope it battles out to its logical conclusion so that Spider-Man can come onto the scene, look at both downed combatants, and say "Alright, break it up you two."

"Do I see your fearless facade vanish now, fool? Will you cry and beg for me to halt my unrelenting barrage? Beg, Racer--beg and perhaps I will be merciful!" You know, for a man that's as yet unable to kill ROCKET RACER, Big Wheel is pretty cocky.

Spider-Man catches up with Rocket Racer and beats him down enough to web him down, calling Big Wheel a "steel pizza." You can't tell me that's the best he can do. Big Wheel is still on the scene, but doesn't notice that there's a long drop to a open water right behind them. So, does he use his machineguns or rockets? No, he attempts a blind charge! Spider-Man pulls Rocket Racer out of the way and Big Wheel goes over the side (Spider-Man calls Big Wheel a "rampaging hamburger bun" here. Hmm, pizza, hamburger bun... maybe you shouldn't fight crime on an empty stomach, wallcrawler).

"Oh no--NO! I can't stop this blasted thing! Why didn't I take the time to perfect my control over it?" Big Wheel asks.

And since it's not degrading enough to be riding around in a rocket pie pan, Big Wheel drives himself off the edge of a building. I can't understand how things like this happen. Big Wheel had all these rockets and lasers that he's been using all day, but as soon as the good guys get near something that'll hurt if he falls off, he decides a blind charge is his best move. Jesus, Big Wheel, even if they were lazy enough to sit there and let you hit them, you would have still flown off to your death.

http://www.seanbaby.com/stupcom/images/bigwheel2.jpg

Maybe you're suicidal. I mean, look at your mess of a life. You're lucky if you even get respect from the parked cars you're rolling over. Giving up and ending it all isn't the answer, though. Even if it was, wouldn't you want to change first? You'd hate to meet Satan dressed like a frisbee.

Spider-Man jumps in after him, explaining that "I can't let that poor guy die--even if he was trying to flatten the Racer into pancakes!" I think this was a typo, because it should probably be "ESPECIALLY if he was trying to flatten the Racer into pancakes!"

Of course, due to all the sewage in the water, Spidey can't find Big Wheel, who's apparently Perished In A Watery Grave (and I think this is one villain who STAYED dead. Take note, Osborns!). Hmm, drowned in ****. Seems a fitting end for Big Wheel.

Spider-Man resurfaces and notes that Rocket Racer has split. What? AGAIN? Geez, what do you making your webbing out of, tissue paper?

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 3

Peter goes back to the hospital, where he's learned that his aunt has had a seizure and is in intensive care. Oh, and Mary-Jane finds him and gives him back the engagement ring.

"C'mon, Tiger--y'know good ol' MJ is too free a spirit to tie herself down to any one swinger--even to a brown-eyed hunk like you. There's a world of grrovy guys out there, and this doll's gotta be free to find 'em. Besides, Tiger--I'm not the down-home-and-marrying-kind."

Parker = OWNED. Man, she sure knows how to let a guy down easy, doesn't she? This little number was followed by them apparently breaking up for several issues, in which Peter attempted romances with old flame Betty Brant (currently going through marital difficulties with future Hobgoblin (well, kinda, sorta, sucky) hubby Ned Leeds. Classy), a student who was only using him to get answers off a quiz, and finally Black Cat, who was insane and latched onto Spidey as a father figure thing.

Ain't love grand?

[The Hero]

When the old guys told a story and it crashed, it was over and done with and they never talked about it again (hence the Living Brain's lack of a comeback).
I'm so sorry you have to see this (http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,spiderman_web,035.jpg) :(

[MicroLives]

I was one of the few people supporting Dissasembled, but I have to put a certain character kicking the bucket in #3 on this list.

[The Hero]

And I don't know if you've heard,but Paul Jenkins is quoted as saying "There's this guy called 'Big Wheel',and he's,like,this guy in a big ****ing wheel!I have GOT to do a story about him!".:(

[The Hero]

Spider-Man getting knocked out by Aunt May? :D
The whole "Aunt May loves Doc Ock and is going to marry him!" story-line.Not even Stan and Steve dumbed Aunt May down that much,and they're the ones who had her act oblivious to being kidnapped by the Sinister Six in ASM Annual #1.:eek:

[Zev]

And I don't know if you've heard,but Paul Jenkins is quoted as saying "There's this guy called 'Big Wheel',and he's,like,this guy in a big ****ing wheel!I have GOT to do a story about him!".:(

Nooooooooooooo!!!

I'm so sorry you have to see this (http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,spiderman_web,035.jpg) :(

Double nooooooo!!!

Wait, that's really more of a nostalga thing. I can take that. Besides, it wasn't THAT bad...

[Zev]

"Are you a strong swimmer, sir?", Captain America 21 or thereabouts

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking I'm going to get all pissed at the Homeland arc in Captain America. Well, I'm not. Aside from some rushed storyline and one or two minor quibbles (is it REALLY necessary that just about every military officer in the story turns out to be a jerk in some way, shape, or form?), it was remarkably even-handed and fair (although I'd wish Morales had presented a few of the arguments FOR the Patriot Act instead of just some against it. Ah well, if wishes were fishes and all that...). But there's one moment, a worst moment if you will, that's so out of left field, so completely and totally ridiculous, that anyone with even a passing familarity with the Marines in specific (I'm assuming that the base in Cuba is Marines, and my brother is in the Marines, so I kinda know what I'm talking about) and the Armed Forces in general will find their jobs dropped.

Well, you know the basic story. Cap is a soldier with superhuman powers who's frozen and ends up in the 21st century. He's asked, shortly after meeting a new girlfriend (how many does this make? Seriously, the man is almost as much a mack daddy as Matt Murdock), to be on a military tribunal to help determine the guilt or innocence of detained terrorist suspects. He arrives and is asked by the Resident ******* (I mean, it's the military, RIGHT? Sigh) Boyle to stand in sight of the prisoners while they pray to Mecca.

Later, he talks to Boyle in private about how he doesn't appreciate being used to intimidate the prisoners (wait, why does Boyle want to intimidate the prisoners? I guess he's just mean). They get into an argument, which ends with Cap saying a variant of the line that heads this little article (it's what's known as a running joke, as he repeats the gag to Fidel Castro and others throughout the story). Now, apparently Cap disagrees with the morals of being ordered to go to a spot and stand around (and this guy was in the military, right?). You'd expect him to perhaps lodge a complaint (and post Abu-Gharib, I'd expect a complaint about ANY kind of prisoner abuse to be taken seriously).

No. Instead he grabs his superior officer and BODILY FLINDS HIM INTO THE WATER.

Let me repeat that for shameless emphasis. HE THREW HIS SUPERIOR OFFICER INTO THE OCEAN.

Now, I don't know whether Steve is still in the military or not (at various points in the story he's called "Captain Rogers" by various military types), but it doesn't matter. He just assaulted a high-ranking member of the Armed Forces, solely for being a jerk. How did a guy with this kind of temper get through BOOT CAMP?

Boyle comes out of the water, justifiably angry, and takes a swing at Cap, who returns him to the water.

So now he's assulted a superior officer TWICE.

Some other officers happen upon the scene and talk with Cap, but their conversation is interrupted when Boyle returns with a weapon and annouces his intent to arrest Cap. And he's absolutely, completely in the right here. If Cap's in the military, I'd expect him to be taken to the brig and imprisoned there until he receives a dishonorable discharge, if not jail time. If he's a civilian, I'd expect him to still be thrown in jail. So the fact that Cap isn't getting chummy with MPs at the moment is sheer fantasy. The last time Cap pulled a stunt like this, he was EXILED from the country (and he had a much better reason for his actions then. Then again, CLINTON was president at the time). Cap has completely disregarded military discipline. You'd expect Captain America to understand the importance of maintaining the chain of command. What's worse, Cap apparently expects to be exempt from the laws that govern us mere mortals simply because he's CAPTAIN AMERICA. And, of course, he's proven right. Simply shameful and incredibly bad writing.

[Unthinkable]

And I don't know if you've heard,but Paul Jenkins is quoted as saying "There's this guy called 'Big Wheel',and he's,like,this guy in a big ****ing wheel!I have GOT to do a story about him!".:(

I'd buy it. :up:

[Saph]

Worst Moment in Comic Books? When Bendis started writing USM. First, he took 5 issues telling a story that was done in 11 pages once before, and acheived nothing extra but introduce Mary Jane, make Uncle Ben more of a character (although Paul Jenkins did this in one issue) and turn aunt May into a over-reacting internet-surfing old lady. And also not include Spider-man's costume in the whole damn story. Shocking. No web-shooters in it either.

Next, he introduces the Green Goblin. The Green Goblin can't even say a single word. Plus, Harry takes a descent into madness ALREADY, and Norman as the Goblin has only just been introduced. Norman finds out Spider-Man's secret identity.

The Kingpin and the Enforcers. The Enforcers have been turned into the Three Stooges. The Big Man is introduced, then killed at that very moment. Kingpin is shown as a man that makes his lawyers do the job for him, instead of being shown as a smart man in his own right. Kingpin unmasks Spider-Man.

Doc Ock. Bendis made him insane, NOT an arrogant, intelligent scientist. He tries to fix things by destroying them. Spider-Man gets his ass handed to him, AGAIN. Doctor Octopus remembers Spider-man's secret identity.

Ultimate Venom. Whoo-boy. This is a stinker. So, according to Bendis, a guy who wears a strength-enhancing suit, and has superpowers on his own, is weaker than a guy who wears the suit, with no super-powers of his own. Riiiight. Eddie is a crybaby. Venom gets the Ultimate Green Goblin treatment, a mass of muscles that barely says a word. Peter Parker wears no spider-man costume. There is no big fight that everyone was excited to see. Just Peter jumping around until Venom is electrocuted. Sigh.

Ultimate Six. Clearly, Bendis doesn't want to write Spider-Man. He wants to write the Ultimates. So he can ruin that, too. Because Spider-Man is only seen with his mask on in flashbacks. The ultimates appear more than Spider-Man does, and all Spidey does do is ask questions and annoy everybody. Kraven is turned into a comical character than can't beat up anyone. And why does every story involving the Goblin end up with Norman getting grotesquely mutated? Not to mention the fact Doc Ock is reduced to someone who hacks into computers, and FOLLOWS ORDERS FROM OTHER PEOPLE, which is not an Ock thing to do. Plus, Bendis ruins continuity by making Hank Pym uninjured and well. In The Ultimates, written by Mark Millar, a GOOD writer, Hank is still suffering injuries from Captain america. Ultimate Six shows him not injured at all.

But what really ticks me off is that Bendis writes spider-Man as a person that can't handle anybody. He gets beaten up every single arc. The villains are always beaten up by someone else.

Bendis needs to be SHOT.

[CobraCommander]

Read Daredevil and shut up.

[Saph]

Read Daredevil and shut up.

No, because of what I heard about Bendis' run on Daredevil, it is just what I hate about Bendis' writing. No appearances of the title character whatsoever.

I bet you wouldn't have told me to shut up if my post count was higher would you? Well, let me tell you something. I am NOT a n00b, if I was i'd be typing stuff like this: BENDIS IS TEH SUXXORZ!!!111

So how about you stop reading Daredevil and shut up?

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Almost any Marvel Comic book published after 1996. They sure did go downhill or something. I think they quit trying to compete with the Internet and videogames or something. They just gave up and started writing alot of boring stuff. But through it all I still love Marvel though.

[CobraCommander]

No, because of what I heard about Bendis' run on Daredevil, it is just what I hate about Bendis' writing. No appearances of the title character whatsoever.

I bet you wouldn't have told me to shut up if my post count was higher would you? Well, let me tell you something. I am NOT a n00b, if I was i'd be typing stuff like this: BENDIS IS TEH SUXXORZ!!!111

So how about you stop reading Daredevil and shut up?

Simmer down there little britches. I guess Matt Murdock isn't the title character. I forgot Matt Murdock isn't Daredevil. Note my sarcasm.

Again, you're going on what you heard, yet you yourself have never read it. Way to expand your mind and develope your own opinions.

Another fine mindless addition to the Hype.

[Phatman]

Worst moments in Comics
Teen tony and the Crossing- This sent Iron man into a downward spiral the book STILL hasn't recovered from
The Crossing - Only Fonzie jumping over a shark beats this as the worst thing to happen in media during the 20th century
Hawkeye's "Robin Hood Costume" Read Avengers vol 1 no. 100-108
Diana prince Wonder Woman - She's not a She spy, she's an Amazon princess.
Superman Red/Superman blue
The Clone saga- Fonzie needs to rev up the motorboat again and don the skis
The spot
Lightmaster

[Phatman]

Let's not forget Marvel's awful U.S. 1 comic series or Crystar

[Saph]

Simmer down there little britches. I guess Matt Murdock isn't the title character. I forgot Matt Murdock isn't Daredevil. Note my sarcasm.

Again, you're going on what you heard, yet you yourself have never read it. Way to expand your mind and develope your own opinions.

Another fine mindless addition to the Hype.

I've never read Daredevil :daredevil: , but I've read every USM and U6 issue. Plus I think a book called DAREDEVIL has to feature DAREDEVIL and Matt Murdock. Not just Matt Murdock. :rolleyes:

And I'm a long way away from 'Mindless'. I'm a 14 year old with the I.Q of 142, last time I checked. And that was an ADULT I.Q Test.

[Guyverjay]

It wasn't one of those internets ones was it?:confused:

[CobraCommander]

I've never read Daredevil :daredevil: , but I've read every USM and U6 issue. Plus I think a book called DAREDEVIL has to feature DAREDEVIL and Matt Murdock. Not just Matt Murdock. :rolleyes:

And I'm a long way away from 'Mindless'. I'm a 14 year old with the I.Q of 142, last time I checked. And that was an ADULT I.Q Test.

I'm proud of you. *golf clap*

[Soundwave]

Death of Psylocke - **** you Claremont!
Death of Hawkeye - **** you too Bendis!

[arachnidkeeper]

How about Howard the Duck and Spider_man come on man? ohh and who can help a new moron like myself get a bloody avatar going???

[Saph]

I'm proud of you. *golf clap*
Okay, I'm just going to stop talking to you. And you better stop too. Now let's stop cluttering up this thread and agree to disagree.

[Zev]

"Are you a strong swimmer, sir?", Captain America 21 or thereabouts

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking I'm going to get all pissed at the Homeland arc in Captain America. Well, I'm not. Aside from some rushed storyline and one or two minor quibbles (is it REALLY necessary that just about every military officer in the story turns out to be a jerk in some way, shape, or form?), it was remarkably even-handed and fair (although I'd wish Morales had presented a few of the arguments FOR the Patriot Act instead of just some against it. Ah well, if wishes were fishes and all that...). But there's one moment, a worst moment if you will, that's so out of left field, so completely and totally ridiculous, that anyone with even a passing familarity with the Marines in specific (I'm assuming that the base in Cuba is Marines, and my brother is in the Marines, so I kinda know what I'm talking about) and the Armed Forces in general will find their jobs dropped.

Well, you know the basic story. Cap is a soldier with superhuman powers who's frozen and ends up in the 21st century. He's asked, shortly after meeting a new girlfriend (how many does this make? Seriously, the man is almost as much a mack daddy as Matt Murdock), to be on a military tribunal to help determine the guilt or innocence of detained terrorist suspects. He arrives and is asked by the Resident ******* (I mean, it's the military, RIGHT? Sigh) Boyle to stand in sight of the prisoners while they pray to Mecca.

Later, he talks to Boyle in private about how he doesn't appreciate being used to intimidate the prisoners (wait, why does Boyle want to intimidate the prisoners? I guess he's just mean). They get into an argument, which ends with Cap saying a variant of the line that heads this little article (it's what's known as a running joke, as he repeats the gag to Fidel Castro and others throughout the story). Now, apparently Cap disagrees with the morals of being ordered to go to a spot and stand around (and this guy was in the military, right?). You'd expect him to perhaps lodge a complaint (and post Abu-Gharib, I'd expect a complaint about ANY kind of prisoner abuse to be taken seriously).

No. Instead he grabs his superior officer and BODILY FLINDS HIM INTO THE WATER.

Let me repeat that for shameless emphasis. HE THREW HIS SUPERIOR OFFICER INTO THE OCEAN.

Now, I don't know whether Steve is still in the military or not (at various points in the story he's called "Captain Rogers" by various military types), but it doesn't matter. He just assaulted a high-ranking member of the Armed Forces, solely for being a jerk. How did a guy with this kind of temper get through BOOT CAMP?

Boyle comes out of the water, justifiably angry, and takes a swing at Cap, who returns him to the water.

So now he's assulted a superior officer TWICE.

Some other officers happen upon the scene and talk with Cap, but their conversation is interrupted when Boyle returns with a weapon and annouces his intent to arrest Cap. And he's absolutely, completely in the right here. If Cap's in the military, I'd expect him to be taken to the brig and imprisoned there until he receives a dishonorable discharge, if not jail time. If he's a civilian, I'd expect him to still be thrown in jail. So the fact that Cap isn't getting chummy with MPs at the moment is sheer fantasy. The last time Cap pulled a stunt like this, he was EXILED from the country (and he had a much better reason for his actions then. Then again, CLINTON was president at the time). Cap has completely disregarded military discipline. You'd expect Captain America to understand the importance of maintaining the chain of command. What's worse, Cap apparently expects to be exempt from the laws that govern us mere mortals simply because he's CAPTAIN AMERICA. And, of course, he's proven right. Simply shameful and incredibly bad writing.

Just thought I'd chime in once more with my Marine brother's professional opinion on the matter.

"Captain America is just that: he's a captain. In every service but the navy, captain equates to O-3, aka, the third rank up from the lowest rung on the officer ladder. If the guy Cap assaulted is in charge of the prison camp, he's probably at least an O-5 or an O-6; a LT Colonel or a full-bird Colonel. If this were the "for-reals" military, the MPs would come and arrest Cap. If there were combat ops going on in the immideate area, he'd likely be shot on site. Now, the UCMJ, that's Uniform Code of Military Justice (which, by the way, governs everything that the military can and cannot do, to a man) is perfectly clear. Under section 809, article 90: ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER, the entry reads:

Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer;
shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

So, yeah, Cap would either be shot or court-martialed. Even if you do allow for the "superhero" aspect in the US military, exempting them from normal rules and regulations would be exactly the opposite of what would likely happen."

[Diamondhead]

I agree DBM.

How about John Byrne having a say in the trial of Galactus???

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ALL ABOUT?It was kind of cool...! I think
because I got to see for the first time what John Byrne really look like .

[Diamondhead]

Remembered in and old fantastic four comics when the impossible man show up at the marvel comics building demanding that he should have his own comic book title .
I could see for the first time what the artists and writers really looks likes ...
it was cool

[Diamondhead]

I really think that marvel should hurry and make an impossible man movie
beside I think the lil'l green dude is one of the most powerful character in the marvel universe .
impossible man should even get its own TV animation series now
because the public nowadays wants corny and funny characters like DZ and stuff and impossible man can delivered all that and more

I would not feel insulted like for that teen titans cartoon .

Damn something is wrong with this new SH website..!

[X]

I really think that marvel should hurry and make an impossible man movie
beside I think the lil'l green dude is one of the most powerful character in the marvel universe .
impossible man should even get its own TV animation series now
because the public nowadays wants corny and funny characters like DZ and stuff and impossible man can delivered all that and more

I would not feel insulted like for that teen titans cartoon .

Damn something is wrong with this new SH website..!

You never told me what issue Thor not being able to breath in space happened in. Tell me.

[stiltman]

I agree with you, Zev. I posted something similar over on another thread, but you summed it up here nicely as well. I have no real problem with a writer taking a creative approach to a character's personality, as long as his actions and deeds still fit that character. For example, a character can get placed into a situation that may mean he has to go against his morals and beliefs in order to survive or whatever, but then they should also show that conflict. What you wrote about Captain America is on the nose. He would just never do that to a superior officer, or even to a lesser rank for that matter. Just not his style. Wolverine, maybe. But not Cap. The writer here is trying to put himself into the story, rather than develop the character in question. It's just sloppy writing.

[Zev]

I agree with you, Zev. I posted something similar over on another thread, but you summed it up here nicely as well. I have no real problem with a writer taking a creative approach to a character's personality, as long as his actions and deeds still fit that character. For example, a character can get placed into a situation that may mean he has to go against his morals and beliefs in order to survive or whatever, but then they should also show that conflict. What you wrote about Captain America is on the nose. He would just never do that to a superior officer, or even to a lesser rank for that matter. Just not his style. Wolverine, maybe. But not Cap. The writer here is trying to put himself into the story, rather than develop the character in question. It's just sloppy writing.

Exactly. There's something similiar in Chuck Austen's (oop! Warning sign right there) Ice. Basically, some Atlantean chick and Cap happen to be alone on a desert isle and she argues that morals change based on situation. Cap comes around to her way of thinking and ****s her.

Now, I'm sorry, but we can at least assume that Cap was raised as a Christian, right (given the time period and all)? Or, at the very least, having a strong set of morals. Universal morals. I.e., murder is wrong, whether here or there or in China or on the moon. But apparently Cap can change his morals based on situation. Does that mean he would torture someone? Kill someone? Betray his country? Completely out of character for Cap.

[Zev]

I think the lesson we have to learn from Sins Past is don't have sex before marriage or you'll probably end up giving your cherry to a supervillain instead of your one true love. Then again, didn't we already learn this when Spider-Man schlupped Black Cat?

I'm really going to love watching the "no spoilers!" people figure THAT one out...

[spider-jide]

The mystical/totum bulllcrap
Most parts of the clone saga
sins past... (pending)

[Slipstream]

"Riot At Xavier's" in New X-Men. Absolutely the worst X-man story EVER told.

[Zev]

I refuse to believe that anything Morrison has written can be as bad as The Draco.

The Hypno Hustler, Spectacular Spider-Man 24

Okay, Spectacular Spider-Man. Pretty good series. Nothing too big, but a nice series for those who want a little more Spider-Man in their reading. And aside from a rather cliched "stick it to the Man" story about the White Tiger and the whole Sha-Shan turns out to be Sister Sun of the Sister Sun and Brother Power cult, who work for the Hate-Monger, who's being pursued by Razorback, the guy with an electified hog on his back, not much bad stuff.

Okay, there's bad stuff. But not much as bad as this. A little ditty by the name of Spider-Man Night Fever (God, sometimes I hate Marvel so much...).

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,spiderman_spectacular,024.jpg

Quick question. Can you imagine anyone looking at this cover and being prompted to buy this? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? And not to read racism into things, but the only black villains are this loser and the ROCKET RACER... well, it's not exactly equality when Doc Ock and Green Goblin are white as the driven snow.

The story begins with a gang of punks roughing up an old couple in a subway car, demanding their money. Peter is in the car too, but is so wrapped up in worrying about Aunt May that he doesn't notice. Our hero, ladies and gentlemen.

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 4

He wises up just in time to see one of the hooligans (whippersnappers would also be acceptable) slapping the old lady. A complete *****slap, too. Complete with a 'SLAP!' sound effect! Violence towards women and the elderly, eh?

Peter has no choice but to get down to the beating up. He fashions a quick disguise... consisting of him holding his hand in front of his face!

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 5

"If they should even guess who it is that’s using spider-strength against them—my life as Peter Parker is finished!"

Well, now we know where critics of Spider-Man 2 got the idea that everyone in New York is familiar with Peter Parker. I mean, he's not a millionaire playboy like Bruce Wayne, he's a college student. What exactly are the odds that he would be forced to expose his identity in front of someone who knows him? Ten to one at least, I'd say.

Just then, the train goes into a tunnel (and we get a montage showing this that features a man being shot out of a cannon, a basketball going through a hoop, and a man sticking his dick in a woman. Oh, we do not!). In the darkness, Peter not only beats up all the crooks, but imprisons them in a web-net! You know, people probably wouldn't have added up "able to beat up gang" with "is Spider-Man" if you didn't use the webbing. I mean, it's not like he's a blind lawyer in Hell's Kitchen or anything...

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 6

Peter has escaped and comes up in a subway station, thinking to himself about how hard he has to study to make up all the credits he lost. Now, I may be wrong, but didn't he miss a gym class? Who STUDIES for a gym class?

Peter Parker, You're A Dumbass: 7

Continuity, people. Please!

He just so happens to pass a poster about the Hypno Hustler, playing at "the Beyond Forever Disco." Geez, that's aged well, hasn't it?

In his apartment, Peter asks himself how he could study with knockouts like Betty Brant, Mary-Jane Watson, or the late, great Gwen Stacy around. That's right... Gwen's been dead for SIX YEARS when this issue came out. Nice one, editors.

Just then, Peter happens upon a surprise party being thrown in his honor. Betty, currently estranged from her husband, calls it an "ungraduation party" and announces that they're all going dancing. Control freak. Also, Flash's Vietnamese girlfriend (he met her, then the military bombed her temple. Bet you a ten-spot she's gonna bring that up every time he doesn't take the trash out) Sha-Shan is dressed in a green geisha outfit. Stereotypes? What're those? Also, for some reason token black chick Glory Grant has been replaced in this gathering by the girlfriend of tertiary character Hector Ayala named Holly Mason. I don't think she and Peter have ever met, so whatever.

Harry Osborn and Flash rush Peter into a room and dress him in a tuxedo leisure suit thing (!), then bring him out. Harry annouces Peter is "a regular John Travolta," perhaps foreshadowing another bout of mental illness. And given the way Peter looks, I'm very, very tempted to give him another dumbass demerit (hey, that's catchy!).

A rather pointless interlude about a truck transporting nuclear materials (yup, it even has "NUCLEAR MATERIALS" written on the side) meeting up with some anti-nuke protestors. Then being hijacked by the Maggia. Because, you know, obviously identified nuclear weapon transports are captured all the time by the Mafia. Oh, and one of the drivers of the nuke truck notes that "he kinda agrees" with the protestors. Yup, that's just the person I want to protect my nuke.

We're promised more on that next month (oh joy).

At the disco (my eyes! MY EYES!), Peter and the gang arrive, prompting Peter to get a seat "before they get hustled." Yeah, don't you hate when you go to a fancy restaurant and suddenly you get hustled? The waitresses wear this green tanktop thing (as you can see, I'm obviously a fashion guru) combined with fishnet stockings. One asks Peter what he wants for a drink and Peter, in a nice moment, has this exchange with her:

Peter: Uh—six Cokes and a Pepsi Light!

Waitress: You mean as mixers? Don’t you want anything in them?

Peter: You have any ice?

Well-played, Mr. Parker. Well-played.

Peter sees Mary-Jane, who gives him a subzero cold shoulder and informs him that SHE called him last night to get a date with him there, which proves that bad taste is universal in the Marvel U.

Backstage, the atrociously styled manager happens upon Hypno Hustler robbing the safe. Well, what do you expect from a guy that calls himself Hustler? HH then hypnotizes "Bernie" the manager; see above.

“Go with the flow, Bernie!” HH says. “The song’s called “Blood From A Stone,” man. An’ you’re just the first t’get squeezed penniless by my mesmerizing melodies!”

I think the Powerpuff Girls fight more credible villains. Some floozies in gigantic bellbottoms come along and ask HH if they should keep singing. HH calls them his "lacy ladies" (and could he BE anymore gay?) and reassures them that their hypnotic renditions of his music have done the trick. Dude, how lame are you when you need BACK-UP SINGERS to hypnotize people?

“Ah, it was disco magic,” HH fondly reminisces, “the day I discovered that the soothing sibilance of a little-known backup band called The Mercy Killers perfectly complimented my mind-numbing hypnotic abilities! We are inseparable, dear ladies!” And I think we've seen the worst origin story ever told.

Peter and Betty are dancing, both thinking of their estranged lovers, when HH comes on the stage. In a close-up, we see that his glasses have those little hypno-spirals on them, for that extra touch of LAME! that these things need.

Peter's spider-sense warns him of the disco music (I wonder if it warned him about other lame fads like those goddamn troll dolls), but he just stands around and watches as all his friends are hypnotized. And I'm wondering if this is the exact same racket that the old Circus of Crime used.

Peter ducks under a table and pulls off his leisure suit to reveal his spider suit. Umm, how'd he get that on when Flash and Harry were dressing him? Never mind, I don't want to think about it. He also plugs up his ears with webbing.

As expected, HH takes a break from the mic stand to order everyone to give him and his ladies their jewelry and should I even mention how this is not how hypnotism works? At all?

Spider-Man is hanging onto a disco ball (!) and drops down to fight HH. Despite all common sense, this loser manages to put up a fight. Spidey thinks to himself “I can’t hear him, but I can imagine the spiel! Every villain thinks he’s special, but…”

He then thinks out loud: “I’ve got news for you, pal—you’re all the same!” And considering Hypno’s race, maybe that isn’t the best thing to say about him.

HH shoots Spider-Man with a laser (or something) from his belt buckle, which is not phallic AT ALL. Nope, no way Jose. “Wrong, wallcrawler!” he disagrees. “The Hustler’s different from anyone you’ve ever fought!” Well, it’s hard to disagree with that. But HH is 'different' the same way retarded children are 'special.' “I’m all new…” HH continues, perhaps thinking to steal the Claremont X-Men’s tagline. “Unique… an’ I got an obligation to the gang in Corona Park t’ keep on KEEPIN’ ON!”

You know, they really should do this story in Ultimate Spider-Man, only with a gangsta rapper. Just a thought.

“I think he’s about to make a point!” Spidey quips as HH extends spikes from the bottom of his shoes, which are so long that they must be surgically-implanted in his feet. Also, how lame are you when you rip off TARANTULA’S gimmick?

“I spent months riggin’ this suit up special, bug-eyes!” HH yells. Frankly, I think “I spent months masturbating to lesbian porn!” is more impressive then anything HH said, but what do I know? I don’t have glasses with hypno-swirls on them.

The spikes failing, HH shoots gas from his feet. Dude, put your socks back on! This failing, he falls back on the foot spike thing, which fails again, then passes the buck onto his backup singers. But Spider-Man’s ears are still plugged, so they’re about as useless as… something really useless.

Spider-Man pulls off Hypno’s headphones, which causes him to be hypnotized by the backup singers. Who are still hypnotized by the hypno-swirl lenses of Hypno’s glasses. Being an honorable lad, Spider-Man webs their mouths shut, piles all the valuables on the stage, then webs HH up under the disco ball. When the crowd comes too, he’s back in his leisure suit. He speculates as to how HH is the bad guy and Spider-Man saved the day, yeah, hey, no one likes a sore winner, dude.

Peter also quite clearly seems to hear the others, which means either he can read lips very well or he waited an hour for the webbing to wear off. Which really must have been boring. Oh, and how come neither HH or the backup singers saw him changing back into Peter Parker? Oh, what’s the use?

Comic Book, You’re A Dumbass: 1

[Zev]

Next month: The Clone Sage.

Oh yeah. I'm going there.

[The Hero]

The Hypno Hustler, Spectacular Spider-Man 24

Um...Jinkins' is doing a Hypno-Hustler story too.:(

[Saph]

Um...Jinkins' is doing a Hypno-Hustler story too.:(

I'm disgusted... yet curious..

[fifthfiend]

I don't think there's anything particularly liberal about Big Pun's screed, which could just as easily come from some Montana Militia's handbook for new members.

As far as this --

He then desecrates the memory of the 60,000 brave Americans whose names are carved in the black wall of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, by stating that they bear silent witness to this twisted viewpoint.

-- you seem to be under the impression that the Vietnam War was somehow 1. a morally and strategically justified and popular conflict strongly supported by a majority of those who actually fought it and 2. a conflict conducted by someone other than a succession of liberal cold warriors (i.e. Truman, Kennedy, Johnson).

[Zev]

Generally, I find it highly inappropriate to drag dead people into arguments, given their inability to register their own opinions. It would be like me saying that George Washington would support me. But all in all, the biggest boner about P's little rant is that it's quite obviously Ennis inserting his own views into the text by using the character as a mouthpiece.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I refuse to believe that anything Morrison has written can be as bad as The Draco.

Quick question. Can you imagine anyone looking at this cover and being prompted to buy this? Anyone? Anyone?

Yeah, but you bought it didn't you? :) I'm almost ashamed to say that I bought it when it came out. And put the Draco on about even footing with that Morrison train wreck.
As far as worst moments; Aside from the creation of the Rip-offs...er...Ultimates line of comics, I'd say it's the interjection of creators political opinions into the storyline regardless of what character and storyline dictate. An example is Cyclops in Astonishing telling Fury that the administration must love him. Could there be a more conservative character in comics? There is a LOT of this going on and since "artists" are usually of a liberal bent, it makes for many uncomfortable characterizations like that one. The Cap example that Zev mentions is also notable in that it interjects this liberal notion of "if it feels good do it" into what should be another stringently honor-bound character. Hmmm... maybe the coming election has infected my thought process. Regardless, mischaracterizations like this and what's going on with Gwen Stacy now are the things that really make me cringe.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Generally, I find it highly inappropriate to drag dead people into arguments, given their inability to register their own opinions. It would be like me saying that George Washington would support me. But all in all, the biggest boner about P's little rant is that it's quite obviously Ennis inserting his own views into the text by using the character as a mouthpiece.

A-MEN! :doom:

[Zev]

Yeah, but you bought it didn't you? :) I'm almost ashamed to say that I bought it when it came out. And put the Draco on about even footing with that Morrison train wreck.
As far as worst moments; Aside from the creation of the Rip-offs...er...Ultimates line of comics, I'd say it's the interjection of creators political opinions into the storyline regardless of what character and storyline dictate. An example is Cyclops in Astonishing telling Fury that the administration must love him. Could there be a more conservative character in comics? There is a LOT of this going on and since "artists" are usually of a liberal bent, it makes for many uncomfortable characterizations like that one. The Cap example that Zev mentions is also notable in that it interjects this liberal notion of "if it feels good do it" into what should be another stringently honor-bound character. Hmmm... maybe the coming election has infected my thought process. Regardless, mischaracterizations like this and what's going on with Gwen Stacy now are the things that really make me cringe.

Actually, I didn't buy the Draco. I have, however, bought the first two Morrison New X-Men hardcovers.

And something tells me Cyclops and Bill Clinton would get along very well...

[Mara Jane]

Zev, you are my hero. A-men.

I've noticed some political stuff has come up in Spidey comics, but not through Peter, and it's usually indirect. Aunt May made a comment after the last election about how distressed Aunt Anna was over accidentally voting for that other "dreadful" man. (Anna lives in Florida, of course.) And, this may seem obscure, but I have an issue of Amazing from 1992 where MJ is in the kitchen singing Bill Clinton's campaign song, "Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow." :) So they do get their licks in.

[Zev]

Well, if you want to, you can be a groupie. I've already got Herr Logan, The Hero, and Rabbit Samurai 5 lined up. Basically all you do is come into the Worst Moments threads and comment.

Besides, didn't Aunt May call SPIDER-MAN "dreadful" for, like, thirty years or so? Good at making wheatcakes, not so much at being a judge of character.

[Zev]

There's an expression in the military called FUBAR (military's big on acronyms). It stands for ****ed Up Beyond All Recognition. That's happened in the nineties to Spider-Man. It went completely FUBAR. And here's the proof. If a picture is worth a 1000 words, then these are worth a St. Crispin's Day Speech describing the situation that resulted in a superhero being also known as...

Peter Parker: Wifebeater, Spectacular Spider-Man #226

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap22.jpg

Note the fact that Peter is absolutely right about being the real thing and how it's MJ's "fault" for getting hit. Marvel, be ashamed of yourself. I mean, I am genuinely shocked that this piece of **** made it to print. Who was the inker that wrote the word balloons? Who was the writer that felt Peter Parker hitting his pregnant wife was a good twist? Who was the artist who drew that sick fantasy? And who was the editor that gave it all a go-ahead? If there's any justice in the world, they're all in an unemployment line right now.

[Mara Jane]

There's an expression in the military called FUBAR (military's big on acronyms). It stands for ****ed Up Beyond All Recognition. That's happened in the nineties to Spider-Man. It went completely FUBAR. And here's the proof. If a picture is worth a 1000 words, then these are worth a St. Crispin's Day Speech describing describing the situation that resulted in a superhero being also known as...

Peter Parker: Wifebeater, Spectacular Spider-Man #226

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap22.jpg

Note the fact that Peter is absolutely right about being the real thing and how it's MJ's "fault" for getting hit. Marvel, be ashamed of yourself. I mean, I am genuinely shocked that this piece of **** made it to print. Who was the inker that wrote the word balloons? Who was the writer that felt Peter Parker hitting his pregnant wife was a good twist? Who was the artist who drew that sick fantasy? And who was the editor that gave it all a go-ahead? If there's any justice in the world, they're all in an unemployment line right now.

Oh, please don't make me look at that! That is the single reason I stopped collecting comics in the 1990's. I STILL do not understand how people can look at it and say it was an accident and he didn't mean it. How couldn't he? He actually says, "get away from me!" You don't say that when you accidentally hit someone. At any rate, I would consider this to be my worst moment in comics. Not only was I insulted as a fan, but also as a woman. You can never look at someone the same way again, once you know they've done something like that.

And I think I heard Tom DeFalco actually wrote that... don't know who the artist was. It shocks me that Tom would write that, since he's one of MJ's biggest supporters with Marvel, or so I heard.

[euroq]

That's easily the worst Spidey moment but I like pretend it didn't happen. My opinion of Tom DeFalco as a writer isn't very high anymore but I can't believe he wrote crap like this.

[The Hero]

There's an expression in the military called FUBAR (military's big on acronyms). It stands for ****ed Up Beyond All Recognition. That's happened in the nineties to Spider-Man. It went completely FUBAR. And here's the proof. If a picture is worth a 1000 words, then these are worth a St. Crispin's Day Speech describing describing the situation that resulted in a superhero being also known as...

Peter Parker: Wifebeater, Spectacular Spider-Man #226

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/mjslap22.jpg

Note the fact that Peter is absolutely right about being the real thing and how it's MJ's "fault" for getting hit. Marvel, be ashamed of yourself. I mean, I am genuinely shocked that this piece of **** made it to print. Who was the inker that wrote the word balloons? Who was the writer that felt Peter Parker hitting his pregnant wife was a good twist? Who was the artist who drew that sick fantasy? And who was the editor that gave it all a go-ahead? If there's any justice in the world, they're all in an unemployment line right now.
Wow...that's...that's just....no comment.

"Mommy,why did Spider-Man punch his pregnant wife in the face?"

[Zev]

You know, I'm pretty sure I know what happened at Marvel...

Five-Minute Wife-Beating Saga

Editor: Writer, what are we going to do? The fans won't want to accept that the character they've followed and fallen in love with for the past thirty years is a clone! What do we do?

Writer: Shut up! Let me think! Okay, we'll make Peter do something so bad, so vile, that they'll HAVE to like Ben Reilly more! Then we'll follow Ben as swinging bachelor Spider-Man, hit our target demographic [Note: Marvel does not know what their "target demographic" is, but are absolutely certain that it does not want a married Spider-Man and ESPECIALLY not Spider-Man as a father], and watch the money roll in.

Editor: I'm not so sure. Everyone says they want a return to the old Spider-Man. Maybe we should just write Peter Parker so as to lighten him up. You know, put on a happy face, get back to old form...

Writer: No! That won't work! We're going to bring in this completely new guy and they'll learn to love him, damnit! They'll take what they're given and LIKE IT! Hey, that reminds me of what my father used to say to my mom when she didn't get him his beer right away. THAT'S IT! We'll make Spider-Man hit his wife.

Editor: Wait, what?

Writer: It's perfect! If any of those Elektra-wanking fanboys say they want the original Spider-Man back, we'll just say "Oh, you mean the guy who beats his wife!" And then they're look like retards! It's brilliant!

Editor: I'm not so sure...

Writer: I am, damnit! Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!

Months later...

Phone: Ring ring ring.

Editor: Yello?

Stan Lee: This is Stan Lee.

Editor: Mr. Lee! Oh... ummm... why are you calling?

Stan Lee: Well, I was reading Spider-Man, the character I created with Steve Dikto...

Editor: Yes... (I'm screwed!)

Stan Lee: Well, on this page of Spectacular Spider-Man #226, he hits his pregnant wife, knocking her against the wall, then runs off, leaving her bloody and bruised.

Editor: Yes, about that...

Stan Lee: I'm very disappointed.

Editor: Listen, it's just... well...

Stan Lee: I would really like to know why you turned my character into a wifebeater.

Editor: Well, see, it's not exactly your character...

Stan Lee: WHAT!?

Editor: Hear me out! Listen, the guy you call Peter Parker is really a clone, so the original still isn't a wifebeater... sir.

Stan Lee: I don't want to hear anymore excuses.

Writer: Hey, who's on the phone?

Editor: Shush! It's STAN LEE.

Writer: Stan Lee? Gimme that! Listen, you pathetic old man! You have no power! You think you can get to me?

Stan Lee: Who said anything about me? I was thinking more about Jack Kirby.

Writer: Jack Kirby? JACK KIRBY? Jack Kirby's DEAD, you senile old coot! Dead and buried!

Stan Lee: Dead, perhaps. But buried...?

Phone: Dial tone.

Writer: Ha! Ha, I say! What a maroon! Editor?

Editor: GAK!

Jack Kirby: RRRRRRGGHHH!

Writer: NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

The End (that's what's known in the biz as a happy ending)

[Crowley9]

The comic about the WTC strike in the Marvel universe written by JMS. It was all fine until the biggest bad guys showed up at the ruins and SHOWED COMPASSION! DOCTOR DOOM SHED A TEAR! Magneto had killed way more people, but when he sees somebody else doing it he's like "Oh, this is horrible!" Please give me a break. Great issue otherwise, but that one horribly corny bit spoiled it.

[X]

The comic about the WTC strike in the Marvel universe written by JMS. It was all fine until the biggest bad guys showed up at the ruins and SHOWED COMPASSION! DOCTOR DOOM SHED A TEAR! Magneto had killed way more people, but when he sees somebody else doing it he's like "Oh, this is horrible!" Please give me a break. Great issue otherwise, but that one horribly corny bit spoiled it.

Well, Magneto sunk a sub... The killing electricity for a good part of the planet killed quite a few. I don't know, I don't know if he's killed as many people died that day.

And Doom's always been fickle. I've seen him playing with this kid one second and then the kid compared him to Magneto and Doom wigged on him, screaming, sent him away ripping him out. Other times he's risking his life almost dying to save this woman in Latveria, other times he's sending the FF back in time to steal Black Beard's treasure! Then Storm's in love with him, but that was actually just a Doombot! He saved Sue and Reed's kid, and then he's wearing his mothers skin. The man needs help. :D :(

[Zev]

The basic characterization is that he's an honorable man who genuinely wants to help people. Of course, this help consists of conquering their civilizations and ruling them in benevolent dictatorships, but he CARES, damnit!

[Zev]

Captain America Reborn, Marvel Comics

After a decades-long run by the late Mark Gruenwald, Cap was getting stale. Everyone could see it. Even new injections like the replacement of the previous supporting cast with such luminaries as Jack Flagg and Free Spirit (ugh!), giving Cap first a Batman-style utility vest and then battle armor, weren't enough to save him. And so, on issue 443, he died.

Only that wasn't the end of the story. Writer Mark Waid and artist Ron Garney took over and it was quite literally like a ray of sunshine breaking through dark clouds. Every story arc was like living a blockbuster movie. Ron Garney's art came the closest to defining Cap then had come in a long time. Everyone knew that Waid "got" Cap.

So what did Marvel do? They let him go over to DC and gave Cap to Rob Liefeld. Liefeld quickly kicked Garney off and set out to do the art himself. And this (http://ape-law.com/GAF/Page06/index.html) happened. Luckily, Waid and Garney came back for Volume 3 out of 5 of Captain America, the "Heroes Return" thing. But... some scars never really heal.

[Phatman]

Two of the worst moments in comic history:
Iron Man revealing his secret identity to the world after SAVING A DOG! What's that lassie? you want me to reveal my secret identity!

Cop finding a black panther costume IN THE TRASH and deciding HE'S going to be the black Panther!

The Hulk shaving his head so people won't "Recognize" Him. THe fact that he's oh-7 feet tall and green isn't THAT noticeable as that green hair on his head.

[Diamondhead]

You never told me what issue Thor not being able to breath in space happened in. Tell me.Thor 387

[fifthfiend]

Zombie Jack Kirby makes me happy in a way that I truly cannot describe.

It just seems... right, somehow.

[fifthfiend]

The thing about Thor is funny, since I distinctly remember him defeating the Hulk one time by transporting them to an environment with no air, rendering the Hulk unconscious while Thor was fine.

Eh, it's probably like with Superman where he can be anywhere between having to wear a solid steel spacesuit and being able to jaunt around deep space bare-assed naked, depending on whatever the hell the writer feels like doing.

[X]

The thing about Thor is funny, since I distinctly remember him defeating the Hulk one time by transporting them to an environment with no air, rendering the Hulk unconscious while Thor was fine.

Eh, it's probably like with Superman where he can be anywhere between having to wear a solid steel spacesuit and being able to jaunt around deep space bare-assed naked, depending on whatever the hell the writer feels like doing.

You've got it all wrong. The Hulk once relaxed and turned into Banner on a planet with very little air... Banner woulden't of survived and Thor took him out of there. The only time Thor has ever cleanly beaten The Hulk is when he KO'ed him with a bolt of lighting to the head. If you want to count Thor breaking The Hulk's neck in a What If, two. I personally think that's bull****... Thor should at the very least beat The Hulk 5 times out of 10... Bah. He's just got so much going for him, he's exactly like Superman with a Uru Hammer and tons of Asgardian goodies and other attacks, although he is a bit less durable and not nearly as fast. But, he can teleport, and Mjolnir protects him from a lot of stuff.

[Cap1970]

Captain America, The Superia Strategem.

Infilitrating Superia's cruise ship from hell, Cap and Paladin (I think) suddenly wind up dressed in female costumes, trying in vain to slink past Superia's femizons.... Not that Cap Wolf was any ****ing better.

Even now I shudder when I look through my back issues.

And, Zev is right - Rob Liefeld took everything we know and love about Cap and crapped all over it.



Can anyone say Roger Corman?

[BlackKnight]

Oh god I remember Superia Strategem, that was the arc where Superia tried to change cap into a woman.. Now that would have been orginal, strange but orginal.

[Advocate05]

The creation of Maggot for Uncanny X-Men.

The creation of that NFL superhero thing ... oh god.

Hey I have an idea ... lets create a villian for Spiderman that uses two BIG wheels for death ... and lets call the issue .. Wheel of Fortune." uhm ... the dude dies in two seconds. He rolled off a pier and drowned ... kinda like how the two big wheels in the Spiderman 2 rolled into the river ... hmmm ... was Sam Raimi paying homage to that issue?

and the last bad moment ...

Giving Rob Liefield a job. Any job.

[TheVileOne]

I just wanted to say to Zev that your posts in this thread have been great and very informative. Hats off man. Dread does great stuff too, you guys are like bad comic book storyline historians...and there is nothing wrong with that! Seriously.

Some of the worst moments I can remember recently:

Avengers by Chuck Austen. God this was something awful. Its bad enough he ruined X-men and Uncanny X-men...now Avengers. In Avengers Austen used his basic strategy of regressing characters back to where they were 20-30 years ago so he doesn't have to deal with any of the enlightenment, character development, or complexities the characters have gained over the years. Most notably is Hawkeye who matured and came much more of a leader figure in formerly great book known as the Thunderbolts. So basically, Austen strips away all of the maturity and knowledge Hawkeye has gained and makes him a dumbass moron that has an affair with the Wasp (did I mention he used his basic strategy on women in comics by making Wasp a dumbass skank ho?). When Cap chastizes Hawkeye for wearing women's underpants I wanted to vomit just like Hank did when he found Wasp and Hawkeye naked together. For whatever reason when Bendis came on Avengers, none of these events were acknowledged or spoken of again. And if Bendis thinks wifebeaters are so unrepentent...why is he such a big Spider-man fan :) ? If its any consellation, Bendis' Avengers Disassembled storyline isn't as bad as Austen's run on Avengers...so way to go Bendis :) .

Frank Tieri on Wolverine-Beast and Wolverine go to jail! Sabretooth fights A NAKED WOLVERINE! Someone eats Wolverine's eyeball. Ugh. Anyway, this was another stupid, "Wolverine is brainwashed by bad guys and kills innocent people" story. You know, Zev has quite frequently mentioned how Cap gets in trouble for killing a terrorist...why doesn't Wolverine get in trouble for killing innocent people? In Wolverine right now, he's been brainwashed (AGAIN!) and is killing innocents left and right. But oh, he's brianwashed so its ok? Anyway, this story sucked and pretty much everything Tieri did on this book did as well. I like Sean Chen's artwork, but God the villains and storytelling on this run were just awful. I think the only thing it rectified was the marriage between Viper/Logan which was never going anywhere anyway.

[Zev]

"No better than he is," basically every comic book ever

This is a cliche I'm just plain tired of. It's got to go. Villain does something really, REALLY bad. Hero gets really, really mad. Hero does lots of really, really mean things because he's really, really mad. Heroes does these things while gritting his teeth and clenching his fists and thinking really, really dark thoughts. Finally, hero beats villain and is about to kill villain (who either goes all cowardly or, more usually, implores them to "Do it! Kill me!") when they have a sudden burst of nobility and declare that if they were to kill the villain, they would be "no better than he (or, quite rarely, SHE) is."

And, since villains never, ever die in comic books (and if they do, they come back. Sooner or later, everyone but Bucky comes back), this is where it ends. In a Hollywood movie, this is usually the point where the villain pulls out a gun and the hero (or their sidekick or their girlfriend or some noble guy working for the baddie who has now been noblely redeemed) is forced to kill them, thus allowing for both a great deal of moral satisfaction and an audience-pleasing death scene.

It has to stop. It was old WAYYYY back in Amazing Spider-Man #121, more then THIRTY YEARS AGO. So please, writers, if you're going to do this, please, PLEASE just let the hero kill the guy. THAT I would like to see, just once.

Notable exceptions include Kraven's suicide in Kraven's Last Hunt, the Joker's paralysis in Dark Knight Returns, and Daredevil scarring Bullseye AND psychologically beating him down in Hardcore.

[Superfly]

Zev, don't forget about Daredevil also psychologically degrading Quentin Beck (Mysterio) to the point that he also decides to blow his own worthless head off. That was an example of a satisfying end to the Guardian Devil storyline by Kevin Smith.

But I agree with you. These kind of things happen too often.

[TheVileOne]

Yeah...and Mysterio came back what? A week later? How did they explain that?

[Superfly]

He did? In what comic? I wasn't aware of that happening. Who was writing that storyline?

[The Hero]

"No better than he is," basically every comic book ever

This is a cliche I'm just plain tired of. It's got to go. Villain does something really, REALLY bad. Hero gets really, really mad. Hero does lots of really, really mean things because he's really, really mad. Heroes does these things while gritting his teeth and clenching his fists and thinking really, really dark thoughts. Finally, hero beats villain and is about to kill villain (who either goes all cowardly or, more usually, implores them to "Do it! Kill me!") when they have a sudden burst of nobility and declare that if they were to kill the villain, they would be "no better than he (or, quite rarely, SHE) is."

And, since villains never, ever die in comic books (and if they do, they come back. Sooner or later, everyone but Bucky comes back), this is where it ends. In a Hollywood movie, this is usually the point where the villain pulls out a gun and the hero (or their sidekick or their girlfriend or some noble guy working for the baddie who has now been noblely redeemed) is forced to kill them, thus allowing for both a great deal of moral satisfaction and an audience-pleasing death scene.

It has to stop. It was old WAYYYY back in Amazing Spider-Man #121, more then THIRTY YEARS AGO. So please, writers, if you're going to do this, please, PLEASE just let the hero kill the guy. THAT I would like to see, just once.

Notable exceptions include Kraven's suicide in Kraven's Last Hunt, the Joker's paralysis in Dark Knight Returns, and Daredevil scarring Bullseye AND psychologically beating him down in Hardcore.
And this coming from a guy who won't stop *****ing about Daredevil killing?Your sending some realy mixed signals,Zev,and it's freaking me out!.:eek:

[Dread]

Mysterio I think was explained with it being a new person under the fishbowl, not Beck. This was after a few months, though.

Don't get me started on the Magneto/Xorn/Imposter mess.

Good point, Zev, about the "no better than he is" mantra. But it's not just comic books, it happens in most movies/TV shows. Condoning murder it not something a lot of writers want to stress, or something the world itself wants to stress. If I wanted to go farther, one could claim it being more widespread liberalism in the media, all media, but I don't want to bring up politics. Too much.

I remember when "Revelations" effectively killed off Ben Reilly but resurrected Norman Osborn, and Spider-Man relatiated by shoving a bag of lit pumpkin bombs into Gobby, and sending him down a building, where it exploded (no body, and he lived). But at the time, people were bashing the moment because "Spider-Man's not a killer" or "it's not in his character". I accepted it because it was an emotional reaction, and Spider-Man is an emotional character. He is a man who would have beaten Sin-Eater to death had DD not stopped him, physically, because he shot Jean DeWolf and almost killed Betty. What WOULDN'T have been in-character would be Spider-Man not reflecting on this act and/or dealing with it and/or being effected by it.

The "no better than you" cliche is just that, a cliche, as one could say the "good guy always wins" or "girlfriend gets kidnapped/murdered" bits are. It's almost timeless. And likely won't go away.

I do wish some deaths would remain permanent, though, sometimes. But that only happens to D-Listers or lower. Still, sometimes shock-value deaths are so lame that you wish for them. Fans are a hard audience to please.

Right now, though, I'll cite a rather unusual "worst moment", because I feel passionate about it:

Wolverine Handbook 2004

Why is this a worst moment? Because the Handbook series sometimes has been anything but complete. The X-Men already had a handbook that was far from coverall (no Apocalypse? Colossus? Magneto even?) and Wolverine had a 3 page bio, longer than most X-Men (save for Storm). But now, he has his own handbook. Not the Fantastic Four, who have their own interesting, diverse universe of characters and races that have yet to be touched. Not the rest of the X-Men or X-foes, even. No, Wolverine, Marvel's star whore.

Fair enough.

But what really got my goat was how long Wolverine's Bio is in this handbook. Most characters get 2-3 page Bio's, unless they are "big name" (i.e. had their own movie, or are otherwise "hot") characters. For example, Captain America has a 2 page bio, despite being around since 1941. Daredevil, circa 1963, has a 5 page bio. Wolverine, who's so important that his bio is the first, forgoing alphabetical order, is TEN (10) whopping pages long.

Sit down and think about that. Ten whole pages. Now, even Spider-Man's bio in his handbook was only 6 pages (8 if you count 2 pages of showing all his costumes). Think about how the Fantastic Four (and through them, Doom, Galactus, Silver Surfer even), the X-Villians, Colossus, and plenty of other characters have yet to get a bio or a handbook, and Wolverine has a 10 page bio (plus the 3 from X-handbook). Think how Namor, Cap'n America, Thor, Iron Man, all have 2-3 page bios and Wolverine has 13 pages devoted to him.

Can you see why this is irksome? As if his 18 monthly appearences were not enough, Marvel must farther shove the "Wolverine is all we are about" mantra. There are no Marvel characters outside those who have had movies, or in Ultimate. They are all secondary. Even if they built the company. As if fans already don't get it shoved into their eyes that Wolverine is Marvel's star, appearing in more books than Superman/Batman combined (just about), we need this farther proof. Don't you think everyone has gotten the message? Can't you at least pretend that once upon a time, Marvel was about more than claws, webs, and dark alleys, but had OTHER characters, too?

I like Wolverine, I really do. But I get annoyed when he's the center of all creation, and dislike the gloryhogging, overpowered, overhyped, book-hopping maniac that popularity has turned him into. And this further cementing doesn't help.

They should have done the new Handbooks like the old; devote large volumes to a letter of the alphabet each time. That would have allowed Marvel to not only be accurate, and fair, to their ENTIRE universe, but also get lots of cash dragging this out like over 2 years or so. But, that would mean waiting months for precious Wolverine to get attention. As for the handbook, while it has some good characters in it, the rest is fleshed with characters who are under 2 years old, while Doom, Magneto, and Colossus still are without tomes. To think of a better way to spend a handbook.

This farther proof that if fans wants proper handbooks, they have to make them online.

Wolverine is NOT the center of the universe.

I just hope one day they'd get the message. Putting all their eggs in one basket or two doomed Marvel once. I would hate to see them repeat their mistake.

[The Hero]

Dread,the beauty of your posts bring non-existant tears to my eyes.:(

[Zev]

And this coming from a guy who won't stop *****ing about Daredevil killing?Your sending some realy mixed signals,Zev,and it's freaking me out!.:eek:

Actually, I only object to Daredevil killing when it's out of character. Daredevil is just about the most lawfully-minded character in the Marvel universe. As I pointed out, he once delivered a long speech about how it wasn't his place to kill Bullseye and written by Frank Miller, no less.

Frank Miller then came back and wrote a story which involved Daredevil being forced to kill, Born Again. Once again it was in character, as DD begged for forgiveness as he killed and his hand was forced (legally, it's self-defense).

But something like MWF, in Daredevil kills for no other reason then to be "edgy" or the movie, which featured Daredevil killing "to give him an arc" (oh, but EVERY WRITER FOR DAREDEVIL IS ABLE TO TELL A STORY WITHOUT MAKING DAREDEVIL A FIRST-DEGREE MURDERER, but they can't. Damn, what idiots), well, it gets my dander up. If you're not going to make the character kill, don't force him into a cliched situation where we KNOW he isn't going to kill.

[Diamondhead]

[QUOTE=Cap1970]Captain America, The Superia Strategem.

Infilitrating Superia's ship from hell, Cap and Paladin (I think) suddenly wind up dressed in female costumes, trying in vain to slink past Superia's femizons.... Not that Cap Wolf was any ****ing better.

Even now I shudder when I look through my back issues.



Mannnnnnn !
I just love that Cap America comic saga
I thought it was boldly daring and very different from the rest .

[Zev]

What's worse is that during the Superia story arc, Cap partner Diamondhead had a near-death experience. So, did she train really, really hard to get revenge on the person that nearly killed her? No. She basically gave up being a superhero. Because she's just a little lady, right? Coupled with the "powerful women = evil" message that can be read into Superia (and Dark Phoenix. Oh, can it be read into Dark Phoenix), an uncomfortable read for fans of the ladies.

What's worse, this was shortly followed by a subplot where Diamondhead was kidnapped by the man that raped her as a child and subjected to brutal "training" to get her edge back. I feel dirty just thinking about it.

[Frank]

Worst Moment in Comic Books? When Bendis started writing USM. First, he took 5 issues telling a story that was done in 11 pages once before, and acheived nothing extra but introduce Mary Jane, make Uncle Ben more of a character (although Paul Jenkins did this in one issue) and turn aunt May into a over-reacting internet-surfing old lady. And also not include Spider-man's costume in the whole damn story. Shocking. No web-shooters in it either.

Next, he introduces the Green Goblin. The Green Goblin can't even say a single word. Plus, Harry takes a descent into madness ALREADY, and Norman as the Goblin has only just been introduced. Norman finds out Spider-Man's secret identity.

The Kingpin and the Enforcers. The Enforcers have been turned into the Three Stooges. The Big Man is introduced, then killed at that very moment. Kingpin is shown as a man that makes his lawyers do the job for him, instead of being shown as a smart man in his own right. Kingpin unmasks Spider-Man.

Doc Ock. Bendis made him insane, NOT an arrogant, intelligent scientist. He tries to fix things by destroying them. Spider-Man gets his ass handed to him, AGAIN. Doctor Octopus remembers Spider-man's secret identity.

Ultimate Venom. Whoo-boy. This is a stinker. So, according to Bendis, a guy who wears a strength-enhancing suit, and has superpowers on his own, is weaker than a guy who wears the suit, with no super-powers of his own. Riiiight. Eddie is a crybaby. Venom gets the Ultimate Green Goblin treatment, a mass of muscles that barely says a word. Peter Parker wears no spider-man costume. There is no big fight that everyone was excited to see. Just Peter jumping around until Venom is electrocuted. Sigh.

Ultimate Six. Clearly, Bendis doesn't want to write Spider-Man. He wants to write the Ultimates. So he can ruin that, too. Because Spider-Man is only seen with his mask on in flashbacks. The ultimates appear more than Spider-Man does, and all Spidey does do is ask questions and annoy everybody. Kraven is turned into a comical character than can't beat up anyone. And why does every story involving the Goblin end up with Norman getting grotesquely mutated? Not to mention the fact Doc Ock is reduced to someone who hacks into computers, and FOLLOWS ORDERS FROM OTHER PEOPLE, which is not an Ock thing to do. Plus, Bendis ruins continuity by making Hank Pym uninjured and well. In The Ultimates, written by Mark Millar, a GOOD writer, Hank is still suffering injuries from Captain america. Ultimate Six shows him not injured at all.

But what really ticks me off is that Bendis writes spider-Man as a person that can't handle anybody. He gets beaten up every single arc. The villains are always beaten up by someone else.

Bendis needs to be SHOT.
wow...someone else feels my pain.

[stiltman]

I agree about the Ultimate comics continuity. Hank was supposed to be injured and off the team, but Ultimate Six blew that right out of the water. Which is a shame for me. I understand that forty years of Marvel history, things can get pretty jumbled(well, ok, a lot jumbled). But there's really no excuse for lack of continuity in the Ultimate comics, especially since that's sort of the idea behind them in the first place. They're a solid read most times, but they can't afford to screw up that badly right out of the gate.

The Wolverine killing innocents thing is pretty stupid. Ooo, he's brainwashed! Big deal. I recall back to the early issues of the Avengers relaunch, when they were battling a "brainwashed" Squadron Supreme. After the smoke clears, Hyperion tries to make nice with Cap, and Cap slams the door in his face with something like "Gee, what is that now? The fifth or sixth time that's happened?" Loved it!! Anyway, regarding Wolverine, he's brainwashed in one title, but that won't affect the fifteen other titles he's currently in. Just doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would fly with Captain America in the Avengers, not it'll come up in that title at all.

[The Hero]

I agree about the Ultimate comics continuity. Hank was supposed to be injured and off the team, but Ultimate Six blew that right out of the water. Which is a shame for me. I understand that forty years of Marvel history, things can get pretty jumbled(well, ok, a lot jumbled). But there's really no excuse for lack of continuity in the Ultimate comics, especially since that's sort of the idea behind them in the first place. They're a solid read most times, but they can't afford to screw up that badly right out of the gate.
Actualy,The Ultimates takes place about a year before Ultimate Six and most other Ultimate story arcs,so I imagine he would have had time to heal.

[Diamondhead]

What's worse is that during the Superia story arc, Cap partner Diamondhead had a near-death experience. So, did she train really, really hard to get revenge on the person that nearly killed her? No. She basically gave up being a superhero. Because she's just a little lady, right? Coupled with the "powerful women = evil" message that can be read into Superia (and Dark Phoenix. Oh, can it be read into Dark Phoenix), an uncomfortable read for fans of the ladies.

What's worse, this was shortly followed by a subplot where Diamondhead was kidnapped by the man that raped her as a child and subjected to brutal "training" to get her edge back. I feel dirty just thinking about it.Cap partner's name was Diamondback as I recalled .
not Diamondhead .
Diamond head was a dude
he was killed by the sphinx in an old nova comic (if I'm correct) ,perhaps they've resuscitated him by now ..!

Anyway anybody knows what ever happened to my favorite lady android Jacosta ???
she was created by Ultron 5 in an old avenger comics

[Zev]

Cap partner's name was Diamondback as I recalled .
not Diamondhead .
Diamond head was a dude
he was killed by the sphinx in an old nova comic (if I'm correct) ,perhaps they've resuscitated him by now ..!

Anyway anybody knows what ever happened to my favorite lady android Jacosta ???
she was created by Ultron 5 in an old avenger comics

You're right, it is Diamondback (stupid, stupid!) I believe Jocasta's (ha, you made a spelling error too!) currently running Tony Stark's computer systems. Most of her work goes into keeping all his pron into separate categories.

I might have made up that last part.

[Zev]

Politics in comics has always been an interesting thing. It’s almost the last taboo. In keeping with ‘pop culture’ and general youth-targeting, most of the Marvel comics are unspoken liberal, complete with the assumption that everyone reading is too. What’s this? Stereotyping? All the ‘cool’ people are liberals? Jean Gray in Ultimate X-Men makes a comment about mutants “scaring the conservatives.” I’m sorry, but I think a hairy guy with metal claws and a real bad attitude scares you whether you’re a Kennedy or not.

Ultimate Professor X chides his X-Men for taking down terrorists and drug dealers, saying he ‘doesn’t like capital punishment.’ Funny, if he had practiced capital punishment a lot sooner, Magneto wouldn’t be running around conducting terrorist operations that resulted in the deaths of hundreds. The writers deflect his culpability in this by having a With-It Black Man (collect them all!), Ultimate Nick Fury (or FINO, as the suave Samuel L. Jackson wannabe has little to do with our Nick Fury aside from the name and eyepatch. I don’t think I’ve even seen him light up a stogie) phrase a natural concern (that Xavier faking Magneto’s death allowed him both to escape punishment AND give him more time to regroup and come back deadly then ever) in an outrageous manner. Both he and Xavier agree about how ridiculous this is, even though it really isn't. I mean, what would people say if Saudi Arabia reported that they'd killed Bin Laden, then years later he pops up and executes a terrorist attack? I don't think anyone would be in a rush to believe SA when they say "Our bad."

Later, FINO explains to the dim-witted caricatures of Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush about how not all mutants are bad, etc. And hey, the freakin’ comic book starts with Bush creating the Sentinel program to hunt down ALL mutants. Just like we put every Muslim in Guantanamo Bay after 9/11 (we didn’t, despite what you may hear). I tell ya, if every character did something else this unanimously, like smoke, the backlash would crucify Marvel. Then again, maybe Marvel does have conservative writers, but they’re smart enough not to write their politics into their stories. Because otherwise, that’s discrimination, right? Not very affirmative actiony.

This ‘hip, cool liberal’ political voice for all characters is never a good thing. Remember when every character needed Prozac back in the nineties? Same thing. Variety is the spice of life and I want a Republican character! Think about to Claremont’s run on X-Men. They had the German, the African-American, the Irish guy, the Canadian shortie, etc. Very ‘It’s a small world after all’ and all that PC stuff. Multicultural like Star Trek before Voyager came around and ruined everything. Forget about turning characters gay, reveal that one is against gun control (Cable or Bishop come to mind as good, if obvious, possibilities)! Or pro-life! That’ll get you controversy! Especially if it was a African-American man that admitted to it. Can you imagine the 500 X-teams sitting around the breakfast table, eating whatever cereal it is that recharges optic blasts and lets you grow blue hair, as Bishop or M says “Nice speech by Schwarzenegger last night.”

Xavier looks up questioningly. “Wasn’t he speaking at the Republican National Convention?”

“Yeah, I was watching it on Fox News.”

“Fox News? That means you’re a… a… Republican? Black people can’t be Republicans!” Jean Gray screams, then turns into the Phoenix for the five-thousandth time and dies.

Hey, it’s better then The Draco.

And after all the times your average Bullseye or Doc Ock has gotten loose, gone on a killing spree, only to be recaptured and taken back to jail, immune from consequences due to their being ‘insane’ (this has happened to the point of cliché with Joker), shouldn’t there have been some sort of law stipulating that repeat offenders with superpowers and a high incidence of escapes should be executed? The family of Joker’s victims alone would make a powerful special interest group…

You could at least have equal time with a liberal villain. He could do evil things like insist that the Avengers can Iron Man and replace him with a less experienced and/or less powerful black man like the Prowler in the name of affirmative action! Or cut the budget to SHIELD in favor of a clunky universal healthcare system. Or try to bankrupt Dr. Donald Blake with frivolous lawsuits, thus forcing him to move out of state and defeating Thor by default! Or force Captain America to retire by saying that his costume reflects narrow-minded nationalism (and considering the orders given to our boys at the Olympics, this isn’t that far-fetched) The possibilities are endless!

Right now the only conservative character in comics I can think of is Rorschach, and he wasn’t exactly a positive representation. Then there’s the description of Senator Kelly in the X-Men script as a ‘GOP creep’, although in the final film he’s thankfully apolitical.

There is hope. SPOILERS FOR ALIAS 1-6. In Alias, Brian Michael Bendis’ MAX comic line, later refurbished into The Pulse, one of the villains is an Evil Democrat (and identified as such!) running against and trying to besmirch the name of the President (quite clearly Bush, although rather surprisingly no obvious jokes are made at his expense). Although the ‘real’ villain is a conspiracy that also claims responsibility for framing Clinton on that whole oral sex thing (!!), this is still an improvement. One could say that Bush is only being portrayed favorably because he’s the President and the same story could have gone with a Democratic president… but it didn’t. So, baby steps, people, baby steps. Also, I now officially owe Bendis one. So I’ll be giving him the benefit of the doubt with New Avengers.

END SPOILERS FOR ALIAS 1-6

And let’s not forget Ed Brubaker, new writer on Captain America, and his refreshing attitude on Captain America (especially after that whole Dresden storyline and Ice. Holy crap…)

I'm honestly not looking to do a lot of politically-oriented stories in the book, because it is a super-hero comic, after all, but I also don't think writers should really push their own political agenda within their work for the most part. It's an argument I have with other writers all the time and I know Diego Rivera said that all art is political, but I feel that as a writer you're supposed to be objective. You write the characters. You don't write your words into their mouths, you write their words into their mouths. And I would never want to pick up a comic book like Captain America and expect to read a liberal rant, at least, not coming out of the mouth of a guy who's spent his entire adult life in the military.

Thank you God.

Spider-Man Vs. Republicans, Amazing Spider-Man 91

Which brings me to Amazing Spider-Man 91 (Volume 1, since Marvel only seems to acknowledge their comics have been around for decades when a centennial comes up…), ‘To Smash The Spider!” Because this is one of the most garish smear jobs I have EVER seen.

Published in December, 1971, and on the heels of the Free Love, Free Drugs of the sixties (boy, that sure turned out well, didn’t it?) this has the virtue of at least not being anti-Establishment. Previous stories featured Robbie Robertson’s son participating in a student protest led by a real *******. Peter himself decided to wait until he had heard both sides of the debate before he got all hot and bothered, which is as important to being a role model as is beating up bad guys. Said protest served to cover Kingpin’s theft of the Tablet of Time WAY back in ASM 68, Crisis On The Campus, but was resolved when it was unveiled that the old-fogey dean was actually in support of the students and just had to clear it with the board of trustees. Remarkably even-handed, considering the ‘Stick it the man, our parents suck, all they did was win WW2!’ attitude among the youth of that era.

But that’s in the past. Our current story covers Sam Bullit (like bullet. Hey, bullets KILL PEOPLE! He must be EVIL!) and is apparently so popular that it received the Ultimate treatment in ‘Cats & Kings’, although the Kingpin pulling Bullit’s strings there renders it more like the Elektra Saga’s subplot of would-be Mayor Cherryh. Just for comparison, neither the Lizard, nor Mysterio, nor Scorpion, nor Vulture, nor the Spider-Slayers, not even the Prowler have appeared in USM as of yet. So it’s good to see Marvel has their priorities in order. That was unfair of me. I’ll have much juicier targets soon. Further stacking the deck, the hip and with-it Robbie Robertson is against Bullit, while J. Jonah Jameson is for him And as we all know, Jameson’s frequency of accuracy doesn’t come close to rivaling that of a broken clock’s…

The cover shows Spider-Man sticking to a wall, holding a man by the collar and caught in the ‘spotlight’ of his Spider-Signal (how this is possible when it’s usually mounted on his belt is beyond me), thinking “First it was Jameson—then Gwen—and now--- I’ve no place to turn! The whole city’s against me!”

Nearby are two fallen attackers and in the foreground are J. Jonah Jameson, an unidentifiable balding man with a Mohawk-thing going, Robbie Robertson, Gwen Stacy, Aunt May, Mary-Jane Watson, and Harry Osborn.

Last issue, Spider-Man’s greatest enemy Doctor Octopus brought about the death of Captain Arthur Stacy, Gwen’s father. Which brings me to the subject of why Doc Ock is Spider-Man's greatest villain. He was around before Green Goblin, he did more then Green Goblin, he never had the goofy 'relapse' plotline, AND he was the first to kill someone close to Spider-Man, Captain George Stacy. Sure, it was an accident, but so was Spider-Man's webline snapping Gwen's neck. I tell ya, Ock gets no respect, yet Green Goblin runs around in those little Christmas elf booties...

Heck, Doc Ock was even the first to get intimate with a female relation of Peter, Aunt May.

Anyway, Spider-Man tried to get Stacy to a hospital, but was too late. Worse, it appeared as if Spidey killed the man. This, of course, led to our heroine Gwen hating Spider-Man but loving Peter. Oh, The Path Of Love Be Not Straight, etc… This trope had already been used for Spidey’s first love, Betty Brant, only there she blamed Spider-Man for her BROTHER’S death. Gwen Stacy would continue to outlive her usefulness to the point where new writer Gerry Conway, having seen Gwen written into a corner by Stan the Man, would follow up on another venerable trope and kill her, although he had the good grace not to stuff her in the refrigerator (http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir). Hilariously, BOTH clichés would be brought out for the Daredevil movie in the unsuccessful effort to dumb down and truncate one of the greatest stories in comicdom.

The customary Page One Splash shows us a priest doing the whole ‘ashes to ashes’ shtick as Captain Stacy is buried. Jameson, Robertson, and Harry look sad as Peter hold a sobbing Gwen. Peter is wearing the signature blue suit (look for it in theaters in the planetarium scene in Spider-Man) while Gwen is illustrated in the ‘weepy’ style of John Romita Sr., you know, the perfect, wholesome girl next door. And she has a severe case of Lois Lane Syndrome. Everyone, thank your lucky stars you live in a day and age where something life-altering can happen in a comic at the drop of a hat. Imagine how irritating it would be for, in the movies, Peter Parker to chase Mary-Jane, have a relationship with her, break-up, repeat, all without her ever figuring out he’s Spider-Man or him ever telling her. Or just watch Smallville, it’s pretty much the same thing.

Next page, they file away as Peter thinks on how Gwen is alone except for him. Gwen repeats how she blames Spider-Man for her father’s death and swears on her father’s grave that Spider-Man will pay… oops, sorry. Peter then wonders what would happen if Gwen found out he was Spider-Man. So he does the smart thing, takes her into a private place, and tells her the truth so when she DOES find out (and if he wants a relationship, she will), she won’t be as angry with her as she would be if he delayed telling her. Nah! This is the guy who didn’t think to ask people to write checks to cash instead of to Spider-Man. And if Ang Lee has proven anything with Hulk, it’s that people (or at least story-tellers) haven’t gotten any brighter as time goes on.

Peter further ponders that while there was a time that he was going to reveal his secret identity to her, this ‘nightmare’ precludes that. How convenient, eh? Keeps relationships from progressing… Meanwhile, Jameson confesses to Robbie that, while Stacy was a little too leftist for his tastes, he was a good man. Robertson agrees, noting that even Stacy’s political enemy Sam Bullit has come to pay his respects.

We quickly see through the charade, as Bullit whispers to his aide Carter that “Stacy’s death will help my campaign.” Yes, he’s one of those EVIL politicians who doesn’t just, gasp, have differing notions on what the best thing for the people is or the importance of personal freedom vis-a-vie personal safety. No, he’s interested only in POWER. Bullit himself has one of those ‘only-in-comics’ hairdos. Imagine a V of baldness over his cranium, complete with an arrow of hair running down the center. It’s apparent this is the Mohawk man from the cover.

Jameson bides goodbye to Robertson, relishing the opportunity to turn public opinion against Spider-Man. Apologists could take this as him trying to ‘avenge’ Stacy in the only way he knows how, but the interpretation of all conservatives being *******s that use others’ deaths towards their own end is reasonable.

Hmm. As long as we’re making villains of people based on their political beliefs, why stop there? Why not gender or sexual orientation or race? I can see it now.

“Who can resist the fangs of… the Female!”

“This Man, This Sodomite!”

“Mangled by the Mandarin!”

Oh wait, that last one’s real.

[Symbiotica]

That was an excellent [and extremely funny] post, Zev.

"FINO"....! LMAO

[Vic Von Doom]

Well, one particular Worst Moment sticks out because I just read it today.

Avengers #503 - Scarlet Witch loses control of her powers and goes insane, causing the destruction of Avengers Mansion and the deaths of Ant-Man, Vision, Hawkeye, and Jack of Hearts, who maybe doesn't count b/c he already was dead to begin with and was only alive again for maybe two pages.

[fifthfiend]

All the ‘cool’ people are liberals? Jean Gray in Ultimate X-Men makes a comment about mutants “scaring the conservatives.” I’m sorry, but I think a hairy guy with metal claws and a real bad attitude scares you whether you’re a Kennedy or not.

When your book is a 30-year-long allegory for the civil rights movement, how exactly do you think conservatives are going to look?

dim-witted caricatures of Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush

Caricatures?

And hey, the freakin’ comic book starts with Bush creating the Sentinel program to hunt down ALL mutants.

Well, considering Bush was president at the time that the book started, um. well, you know...

Is all of Marvel supposed to pretend Clinton still holds office so as to avoid offending your tender conservative sensibilities?

Xavier looks up questioningly. “Wasn’t he speaking at the Republican National Convention?”

“Yeah, I was watching it on Fox News.”

“Fox News? That means you’re a… a… Republican? Black people can’t be Republicans!”

Fox News? Presumably there's still a difference between 'Conservative' and 'Just Likes Being ****ing Ignorant'.

Although these days...

And Schwarzenegger? Yes, Bishop has always seemed to me like the kind of character who would admire a phony tough-talking Hollywood boy who gives half-hour speeches made entirely of disjointed 10-second sound bytes and thinks "economic girlie men" makes him sound like something other than a pissy 9-year-old whose daddy used to beat him with the WSJ Op-Ed page.

Again, so far it seems like most all of your complaints are about X-Men, which I again hasten to remind you is and always has been a story with an expressly liberal viewpoint. Sorry to break it to you, but when writers have a book about massive social upheavel and have to slap a label on the group opposed to that change, they're going to go with the label which is expressly and by definition opposed to social change.

As far as the Ultimates -- I mean, we have a book in which a massive unaccountable government agency deceives and manipulates the public, and somehow all of this is supposed to be a good thing -- and they're not conservative enough for you? What do you want, Captain Amerca skull****ing Osama while the Black Widow coos that what with all these manly man heroes around to do the protecting, her skills are best put to use making sure there's a nice dinner on the table when they all get home and working on her footrub technique?

Jameson bides goodbye to Robertson, relishing the opportunity to turn public opinion against Spider-Man. Apologists could take this as him trying to ‘avenge’ Stacy in the only way he knows how, but the interpretation of all conservatives being *******s that use others’ deaths towards their own end is reasonable.

Sorry, could you repeat that? I've got Fox News on, and I couldn't hear you over the repeating loop of Bush chanting "9-11" over and over and over again.

[DBM]

Lets leave out political attacks guys. Keep it comic related and civil.

[fifthfiend]

Awwwwww, but Mo-om!

C'mon, he started it!

Awwwwwwwww!

[DBM]

Awwwwww, but Mo-om!

C'mon, he started it!

Awwwwwwwww!

And I'm finishing it.

Don't make me get the belt.

[Zev]

When your book is a 30-year-long allegory for the civil rights movement, how exactly do you think conservatives are going to look?



Caricatures?



Well, considering Bush was president at the time that the book started, um. well, you know...

Is all of Marvel supposed to pretend Clinton still holds office so as to avoid offending your tender conservative sensibilities?



Fox News? Presumably there's still a difference between 'Conservative' and 'Just Likes Being ****ing Ignorant'.

Although these days...

And Schwarzenegger? Yes, Bishop has always seemed to me like the kind of character who would admire a phony tough-talking Hollywood boy who gives half-hour speeches made entirely of disjointed 10-second sound bytes and thinks "economic girlie men" makes him sound like something other than a pissy 9-year-old whose daddy used to beat him with the WSJ Op-Ed page.

Again, so far it seems like most all of your complaints are about X-Men, which I again hasten to remind you is and always has been a story with an expressly liberal viewpoint. Sorry to break it to you, but when writers have a book about massive social upheavel and have to slap a label on the group opposed to that change, they're going to go with the label which is expressly and by definition opposed to social change.

As far as the Ultimates -- I mean, we have a book in which a massive unaccountable government agency deceives and manipulates the public, and somehow all of this is supposed to be a good thing -- and they're not conservative enough for you? What do you want, Captain Amerca skull****ing Osama while the Black Widow coos that what with all these manly man heroes around to do the protecting, her skills are best put to use making sure there's a nice dinner on the table when they all get home and working on her footrub technique?



Sorry, could you repeat that? I've got Fox News on, and I couldn't hear you over the repeating loop of Bush chanting "9-11" over and over and over again.

Rant alert! Rant alert! Go watch Farenheit 9/11, you hippie.

[Zev]

Point by point...

When your book is a 30-year-long allegory for the civil rights movement, how exactly do you think conservatives are going to look?

To categorize liberals as African-American-loving acceptors of differences and conservatives as KKK-level forces of intolerance is AT BEST revoltingly simplistic. The real world isn't that black and white, no pun intended.

Caricatures?


car·i·ca·ture
(kr-k-chr, -chr)
n.

A.
1. A representation, especially pictorial or literary, in which the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic or grotesque effect.
2. The art of creating such representations.

B. A grotesque imitation or misrepresentation

Well, considering Bush was president at the time that the book started, um. well, you know...

Is all of Marvel supposed to pretend Clinton still holds office so as to avoid offending your tender conservative sensibilities?

Let me make this clear, in the real world, there has not been a police state as a result of terrorist actions, all Muslims have not been oppressed and imprisoned, etc. Yet we're supposed to believe that in a similar situation, mutants are given this treatment of basically being executed on the spot without being read their rights or given a chance to surrender. Completely unrealistic. The least they could do is make a fictional president and not identify his party affiliation. That would be fair and even.



Fox News? Presumably there's still a difference between 'Conservative' and 'Just Likes Being ****ing Ignorant'.

I think there's an interesting article (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005312) you should read.

Although these days...

I think it amusing that, while talking about a comic that deals with tolerance, Mr. Fiend persists in implying that anyone who disagrees with him is ignorant.

And Schwarzenegger? Yes, Bishop has always seemed to me like the kind of character who would admire a phony tough-talking Hollywood boy who gives half-hour speeches made entirely of disjointed 10-second sound bytes and thinks "economic girlie men" makes him sound like something other than a pissy 9-year-old whose daddy used to beat him with the WSJ Op-Ed page.

Ten bucks says he would not say that to the Austrian Oak's face.

Again, so far it seems like most all of your complaints are about X-Men, which I again hasten to remind you is and always has been a story with an expressly liberal viewpoint.

Funny, I don't seem to recall Chris Claremont's stories as having a political viewpoint. Even Senator Kelly wasn't identified as Republican or Democrat. As I said, saying that one party accepts the differences in people and the other is composed of fascist monsters is woefully simplistic and completely untrue. For instance, Kerry doesn't support gay marriage.

Sorry to break it to you, but when writers have a book about massive social upheavel and have to slap a label on the group opposed to that change, they're going to go with the label which is expressly and by definition opposed to social change.

Yes, we all know how Republicans, throughout history, have opposed social change. Like Abraham Lincoln, for instance. Everything was status quo with him.

As far as the Ultimates -- I mean, we have a book in which a massive unaccountable government agency deceives and manipulates the public, and somehow all of this is supposed to be a good thing -- and they're not conservative enough for you? What do you want, Captain Amerca skull****ing Osama while the Black Widow coos that what with all these manly man heroes around to do the protecting, her skills are best put to use making sure there's a nice dinner on the table when they all get home and working on her footrub technique?

And now he makes it clear that he sees everyone who disagrees with him as

A. Ignorant

B. Racist

and

C. Sexist

This is quite possibly the most partisan individual I've ever met. Might I suggest that if you don't like a conservative man exercising his right to free speech, you start your own thread (maybe "Baddest Seconds in Graphic Novels").

Sorry, could you repeat that? I've got Fox News on, and I couldn't hear you over the repeating loop of Bush chanting "9-11" over and over and over again.

Well, get used to it. You're in for four more years of it. Hope you like the writing on The West Wing.

[The Hero]

Rant alert! Rant alert! Go watch Farenheit 9/11, you hippie.
Wow.You kind of destroyed your arguement when you used the term "hippie".

[Zev]

Wow.You kind of destroyed your arguement when you used the term "hippie".

It's a joke. It's what I do.

And I can't destroy something that doesn't exist.

[BlackKnight]

Disassembed is the worst moment in comic history

[The Hero]

He saved Sue and Reed's kid, and then he's wearing his mothers skin. The man needs help. :D :(
When did he wear his mother's skin?:eek::eek:

[The Hero]

It's a joke. It's what I do.
We both know it wasn't a joke,it's common knowledge that Republicans hate all that is loving and peaceful.Now go back to beating your wife,disrespecting the environment,snorting coke with George Bush,and helping your fellow klansmen beat homosexuals to death with Bibles.:mad:

[Zev]

When did he wear his mother's skin?:eek::eek:

Mr. X is misrepresenting things.



It was his ex-girlfriend's skin.

[The Hero]

Mr. X is misrepresenting things.



It was his ex-girlfriend's skin.
Here in the south,there ain't much difference 'tween the two.*plays banjo*:o

[spiderwyze]

But that’s in the past. Our current story covers Sam Bullit (like bullet. Hey, bullets KILL PEOPLE! He must be EVIL!) and is apparently so popular that it received the Ultimate treatment in ‘Cats & Kings’, although the Kingpin pulling Bullit’s strings there renders it more like the Elektra Saga’s subplot of would-be Mayor Cherryh. Just for comparison, neither the Lizard, nor Mysterio, nor Scorpion, nor Vulture, nor the Spider-Slayers, not even the Prowler have appeared in USM as of yet. So it’s good to see Marvel has their priorities in order.

Lizard has, shown up in Ultimate Spider-Man, actually, albeit in flashback from his previous appearance in Ultimate Marvel Teamup.

And Mysterio appeared in the "Hollywood" storyline, as a villain the filmmakers apparently came up specifically for the movie. I think the guy seen wearing the fishbowl was supposed to be Bruce Campbell.

Y'know, just sayin'.

[Zev]

Lizard has, shown up in Ultimate Spider-Man, actually, albeit in flashback from his previous appearance in Ultimate Marvel Teamup.

And Mysterio appeared in the "Hollywood" storyline, as a villain the filmmakers apparently came up specifically for the movie. I think the guy seen wearing the fishbowl was supposed to be Bruce Campbell.

Y'know, just sayin'.

You're splitting hairs.

[Zev]

By the way, I'm writing articles on various comic books published during the infamous Clone Saga. One of them has a character described as a "money-firster" who reminded me of France, Germany, and China with Saddam’s food for oil program! You hear about that? Times of London got a copy of an internal report of the scandal, which said that Iraq sold its oil at cut-rate prices “to Russia, China, and France. This was because they were permanent members of, and hence had the ability to influence decisions made by, the U.N. Security Council.” In layman's terms, that's what they call bribery.

Saddam’s regime also “allocated ‘private oil’ to individuals or political parties who sympathized in some way with the regime.” I wonder how much Michael Moore gets? Among the buyers was Beran Sevan, who was IN CHARGE of the oil for food program. He apparently got control of 9.3 MILLION barrels of Iraqi oil, which he resold at a profit of $1,191,610. Those lovable scamps are exactly the kinda people I want grading our “global test."

That puts me in the mind for a Worst Moment.

Hippie Thor, The Ultimates

Here's the thing. Ultimates is supposed to be Marvel's adult, political book. Just as the country is divided, so should the team be. You have Captain America and Hawkeye (who writer Mark Millar describes as the "likable right-wing character." Oh, well, a token Republican is better then no Republican at all) on the hawk side, while Tony Stark and Thor are on the dove side, with Bruce Banner and Hank Pym being such offensive human beings that no political party will have them.

However, the only guy who gets any press for his cause is Thor. Yeah, they say Hawkeye's a right-winger, but the first time I heard about it is when I read it in an interview for Ultimates 2. I mean, they have all this dramatic conflict and they're not doing anything with it.

Case in point. Hulk (Ultimate Hulk, the one that eats people) is rampaging in New York. The Ultimates get together, but can't beat him. Thor says he'll help, IF the president does something for him. Cue the thunder, Hulk is beaten, and the "international aid" budget is doubled.

In other words, Thor has just blackmailed the United States while innocent people were being killed. Can you imagine the uproar if France said "Yeah, we'll help you in Iraq, IF you legalize gay marriage"? Well, that's basically what Thor has done. So how do his teammates react to being kicked around while Thor trolled for donations to his favorite charity? They don't. Captain America never chews him out for placing politics over people's lives. The entire exchange is treated as a punchline, as Thor "sticking it to the man." Well, I'm not laughing.

[newnoiseimage]

your an embarassment to the entire species.

[Zev]

your an embarassment to the entire species.

The entire species is embarrassed by me? That's a bit of a stretch. I mean, have you polled the entire species? I'm sure there are peopl in China, hell, in Portland who have never even heard of me. Hence, why would they be embarrassed? Not to mention there are a number of people who are proud to count me as a friend or family member. Right on this board, I could shoot off a few PMs and have people come and say they are indeed not embarrassed to belong to the same species as me.

Oh, I know! Do I belong to a different species then homo sapiens? Perhaps this species, lets call it "homo sapiens Zev" consists of merely you and me. Even then, I am not an embarrassment to the species, as I am one-half of the species and, since I am not ashamed of myself, am therefore not an embarrassment to the species.

By the way, when you call someone an embarrassment, try to use proper grammar. It should be "You ARE an embarRassment (note the second r) to the entire species."

[newnoiseimage]

forgive me for my quick typing, i have limited time today, so messing up is inevitable.

anyone who refers to a yale grad with a 91 IQ (110 is average for a college grad) "my guy" is an embaRRassment.

[The Hero]

forgive me for my quick typing, i have limited time today, so messing up is inevitable.

anyone who refers to a yale grad with a 91 IQ (110 is average for a college grad) "my guy" is an embaRRassment.
Plus,he has yet to deny my accusation that he gays to death with Bibles.

[Zev]

And what about Scarecrow's brain!?

C'mon, noise, who do YOU think is smarter? The guy who goes to Vietnam, runs on the basis of that service, but neglects to think (and this is acting on the "best case scenario" that all the Swiftboat Vets for the Truth are just really steamed at Kerry and making it all up) that maybe the people he accused of ravaging villages in a manner reminiscient of Genghis Khan might be a little mad at him? Or the guy who stays home and looks EVEN BETTER when the liberal media quite literally makes up a story criticizing him?

But seriously, folks, do you think I'm gonna stop? *****, you be trippin'. I'm gonna First Amendment all over your asses like an O.G. Lets get the free speech flowin' like candles off a homey-girl's back. Old school! Nah nah nah nah, can't touch this! Assorted rap exclamations!

Spider-Man Vs. Republicans Scene 2, Amazing Spider-Man 91

As Jameson drives home, Peter racks himself over the coals, as is his wont. “…deep in my heart I’ll always wonder… if not for Spider-Man, wouldn’t Captain Stacy still be alive?” Well, if not for the little kid who stood in the way of debris, he would. And if not for Doctor Octopus, who would have killed a lot more people if Spider-Man didn’t stop him periodically. So Peter’s rather far down the list on terms of responsibility (after all, who knows how many people contributed materials to making Ock’s tentacles?), but when it comes to placing blame, Our Man Parker’s as dumb as a box of rocks. Frankly, I’m surprised he ever made webshooters…

Peter is even more conflicted upon remembering Stacy’s dying wish was that Peter look after Gwen. Wouldn’t it be something if Gwen found her father’s journals, discovered Peter was Spider-Man, and then assumed Peter killed Stacy to keep his secret identity? We’re teased with Gwen figuring out Peter’s identity, but she really just regrets not warning her father about Spider-Man. They’re a perfect match for each other, at least in terms of blame assigning (“Curse the cancellation of Futurama! If only I had watched it more…”).

“Spider-Man! Spider-Man!” Gwen yells, perhaps channeling Marlon Brando’s character in ‘A Streetcar Named Desire’. “Whether he meant to or not… he killed my father! HE KILLED MY FATHER!” Klingon bastards!

Peter tries to explain Spider-Man’s action, using the third-person to protect his secret identity, but of course trips over his own tongue and can’t explain things. Still, this gives him a one-up on Movie!Daredevil, who seems perfectly willing to watch his soulmate drift away rather then compromise his secret identity.

Gwen, like Elektra, is going to do her part to avenge her father. No, it doesn’t involve slashing sandbags to Evanescence. Since Sam Bullit’s running on a ‘law and order’ ticket (hey, does this mean Briscoe’s his running-mate?), she’s going to help his campaign. After all, “He used to be a cop… just like dad. They knew each other in the past.” Gwen apparently hasn’t been listening when Stacy expressed his disapproval of Bullit in the past, but she’s just a wimmin, what does she know?

The next morning, Gwen shows up at Bullit’s campaign headquarters. News of her arrival comes to Bullit, who is tossing around martial artists for his work-out (oh, bru-ther!). Bullit agrees to see her, saying “She’ll probably be real easy mark—just like her pa!” Take note. In this panel, Bullit looks identical to then-president Richard Nixon, complete with sweatiness.

Bullit is next seen redressed in a mustard-yellow suit, thinking to himself “Stacy asked for what he got. He was always too soft on punks. He coddled ‘em, instead of…” His thought train is derailed by the arrival of Gwen, who he leers at with child molesting skill. You know, lots of ‘my child’ and ‘my dear’ and touching her chin and that sort of thing. “After what happened to your father, I hope you’ll turn to me—as a friend—and a counselor,” he says, neglecting to include an “I feel your pain” to put a more appropriate spin on a politician trying to seduce a (would-be) intern.

Gwen wants Bullit to bring Spider-Man to justice. “Since you’re the daughter of the famous Captain Stacy, your endorsement will mean a lot—even though your late father and I had different views on crimefighting.”

And this is why I wrote this article. Because now, over thirty years later, the Democrats have done the EXACT SAME THING with Ron Reagan Jr. at their convention that this ‘scummy Republican’ is trying to do with Gwendolyn.

Payback’s a *****, ain’t it?

“Sam Bullit never had any time for liberals, or bleeding hearts, or big-talkin’, long-haired do-gooders. Law and order, that’s my ticket! That’s what Sam Bullit stands for!”

See what I mean about obvious conservative-bashing? They’re really not doing much to bother covering up their politics, short of changing the Republican party’s ‘official’ name to ‘Law and Order’. I don’t know what that stands for. Maybe it means that serial killers like Charles Manson should be put to death instead of feeding off taxpayer dollars like parasites until their prison sentence runs out in concordance with their lives. But that could just be me.

Gwen starts to fall to the dark side of believing people should be punished for committing crimes. “Society today is at war!” Bullit continues. “We’re at war with the left-wing anarchists who are trying to destroy this great, proud nation of ours!” Because as a conservative, he is obviously a paranoid kook. People trying to destroy our nation! Why, of all the ridiculous things! Everybody loves us, from Stalingrad to Iran to North Korea! Not to mention those wise Europeans, with their enlightened sexuality and arty movies!

As a comic book baddie, Bullit is of course completely overwritten. The pose he strikes as he says that sentence simply must be seen to be believed. After Gwen leaves, the strange parallels to modern day events continues… “With the Stacy name behind me, the liberals won’t know what to think.”

See above note regarding Ron Reagan.

Bullit calls the Daily Bugle and apparently immediately gets on the line with Jameson. Shouldn’t the publisher of a major metropolitan newspaper have better things to do then wait for a call from any old candidate?

“Careful, J.J. He’s a slippery one!” With-it Black Man, I mean, Robbie Robertson warns. And as a minority, his opinion is automatically more right then an old white guy. Imagine if he was a woman too! Why, he'd have wisdom unseen since Uatu the Watcher made his presense known! Of course, this warning should be attributed to every political candidate from Nader to Gore to Cheney. And if you define slippery as ‘every time you try to pin him to a position, he wriggles into another one…’ Oh, you know where I was going with that?

In return for going against Spider-Man, Jameson agrees to support Bullit.

“You can’t mean Bullit, Mr. J!” Robertson gasps, apparently channeling Harley Quinn. “That fledgling fascist’s still living in the 1930’s!”

First, he means 1940s, right? Second, when you call someone a Nazi, you should be thrown out of the debate on your ass. That’s like saying Bush staged 9/11 or Clinton murdered people for Whitewater or Kerry committed atrocities in Vietnam… oh wait, he confessed to doing that. It’s hitting below the belt, plain and simple. But, since Robertson’s a With-It Black Man, he’s absolutely right. Bullit will turn out to be even worse then a fascist. This kind of one-dimensional characterization is okay when portraying a made-up villain like the Vulture or Lex Luthor, but when you apply it to a political party, it’s bad writing. Especially when that writing is then sold to children! Is it too much to expect a little fairness, some equal time?

“What’s wrong with a man standing for law and order, anyway?” Jameson asks, proving once and for all how much of a square he is.

“Maybe it just depends on whose law—and what kind of order you’re talkin’ about, man!” Robertson replies with all the self-righteousness the seventies can muster. To coin the Jabootuan phrase, whoa! He just blew my mind. I’m all, like, enlightened and stuff!

Peter sees Robertson leaving the office in a steam, going so far as to slam the door behind him like a kid who’s been grounded for getting bad grades. Imagining how Jameson must be, he splits. After taking a shower, he decides to get his mind off the whole ‘girlfriend-blaming-alter-ego-for-father’s-death’ thing by watching the “boob tube.” This was before Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson made that nickname literal.

He finds on a news program that Bullit has pledged to apprehend Spider-Man if elected. How’s he going to do it? Well, he has this secret plan, see… Okay, not really. I don’t see why Bullit is singled out in his desire to see Spider-Man brought to justice, since EVERYONE thinks Spider-Man killed Stacy. Maybe because he’s the bad guy. “And until [Spider-Man’s] crushed—swiftly—without mercy—none of us are safe!” Bullit raves, since he’s a conservative whacko, etc, etc. Ever notice there are never any liberal whackos in these things? Just once I'd like to see a bad guy trying to blow up the CIA so as to stop "Rumsfeld and Cheney from taking away our freedoms!"

In the next page, Peter turns off the TV in disgust, followed by a panel of Bullit caught in another villainy pose illustrating how evil and bad and not nice he is. The lower 2/3s of the page shows Spider-Man sticking to a wall, Bullit raising his fist, and several people running away from Spider-Man in a splash that bears a sharp resemblance to a poster for a monster movie. “Crush Spider-Man!” several captions read.

That night, Spider-Man is on patrol, thinking about how “two unthinking rabble-rousers have created a city of fear!” Then again, this is the city regularly invaded by aliens, supervillains, Atlanteans, extra-dimensional menaces, demons, mythological Norse monsters, giant robots, and generally unpleasant people. Not to mention the grip that the Kingpin and Maggia hold on it. And the ever-present threat of terrorist attacks from HYDRA, AIM, Them, and various other evil organizations. Then there's always the chance that a freak accident will turn you into a monster that will inevitably be flattened by whatever superhero happens to be walking by.

I'd hate to have their insurance rates.

People are too scared to leave their apartments, which makes me wonder why Peter isn’t checking up on Aunt May, knowing how fragile her condition is. For the hundredth time, Spider-Man wonders if Jameson and company are right. “Maybe I am a menace! Maybe I do bring tragedy—to everyone who crosses my path! Look what I’ve just done—to the girl I love!”

That’s nice, Spidey, but the question isn’t whether you hurt people’s feelings, it’s whether you’re a murderer. Jesus, stop moping like Hamlet with radioactive blood and offer up a rebuttal. Spider-Man could do this any number of ways, such as talking to his friends in the Fantastic Four and having them appear on TV courtesy of him and read a note explaining the condition. Basically, “I tried to get Captain Stacy to a hospital, but it was too late and he died on the way.” Simple. Moreover, Spider-Man had tried out for the Avengers, and although he did ruffle some feathers (especially the Wasp, because wasps don’t like spiders. Sigh.), he would still have Iron Man, Thor, Giant-Man, Captain America, and Hawkeye vouching for him. Although he might not want Giant-Man in his corner after the big lug became Straitjacket, err, Yellowjacket. Not to mention Spider-Man had a team-up with Daredevil, whose truth sense could clear him of all wrongdoing if reasonably established to the authorities (in fact, this would make Matt Murdock’s job of putting criminals behind bars much easier, although work as a criminal defense lawyer would be stagnant once you have a living, infallible lie detector running around). Spider-Man has the undying gratitude of Curt Connors and the Connors clad for clearing their patriarch of his scaly condition. Ka-Zar also owes Spider-Man after nearly drowning him while Spidey was recovering from amnesia. Spider-Man teamed up with Dr. Strange in one of his annuals. In fact, I think the only heroes Spidey can’t count on for support are the X-Men (which is funny, considering the next part of this story…) So there’s any number of ways for Spider-Man to get his story out without being arrested.

Based on this, Bullit (supposing a realistic one who just had a differing political opinion, not the villainous caricature portrayed) would probably call for the death penalty on Doc Ock. Doc Ock did, after all, escape from prison, a second-degree felony (this is, of course, according to modern-day law. I can’t speak for seventies law, but hey, wackier things have happened with Marvel-Time then for present law to have a bearing on events thirty years in the past). In the course of evading capture at the hands of Spider-Man, he dislodged some debris that killed Captain Stacy. That’s felony-murder and of a respected police officer nonetheless. Even a more moderate conservative like our kinder, gentler Bullit would probably call for the death penalty to be extended to felony murders. Of course, if they did this, Bullit would be elected by a landslide and a classic villain would be executed. And that can only happen when you want your new clone boy to look like a badass.

Spider-Man changes back into Peter Parker, although you’d think such a disserted city would offer easy pickings to any thieves, thus more ‘business’ for Spider-Man. “What does it take to show me where it’s at?” he muses in Seventies-lingo. “To show—Spider-Man’s had it!”

Hmm, Spider-Man unpopular, Peter blaming himself for bad events, Peter considering giving up being Spider-Man… yup, this is a Spider-Man story!

[Zev]

Just so we have equal time, here's a Very Special Nonpartisan Worst Moment.

SPOILERS FOR SSM!

We're Basically Saying That We Care More About The Movies Then The 42-Year History Of The Comic Book, Spectacular Spider-Man 20

http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey1.jpg
http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey2.jpg
http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey3.jpg

Someday, Denny O'Neil and Howard Mackie are going to write a story that will be pencilled by Humberto Ramos. It will feature a clone Spider-Man with organic webbing hitting Mary-Jane Watson because she's a conservative.

And that will be the Worstest Moment in Comic Book.

Until then, DING-DING, we have a new champion. Congratulations, Marvel. You ****ed up.

[newnoiseimage]

perfect example of a staunch republican ignoring fact and reailty and using lies and half-truths to shift the focus. understand something, i am not a kerry supporter, i just know that bush is an outright moron, thats a fact, 91, say it to yourself over and over, from your posts i can gather that you have him beaten by at least 20 IQ points. that IS A LOT! he is not a smart man, and should not be our representative. "fool me once shame on you, foll me twice.... well its not gonna happen again."

anyway this is the comics board, you wanna talk (i say talk because there is no debating with someone as blindly passionate as yourself, thats not an insult, it just means you feel so strongly you will not be swayed for better or worse) politics, go over to the politics board.

[The Hero]

Spider-Man Vs. Republicans Part 2, Amazing Spider-Man 91
Zev,you're not going to enjoy life very much if you instantly hate something simply because you think it's anti-conservative.Hey,Sideshow Bob is a villainous republican,let's boycott The Simpsons!Jameson is a conservative,AND he's not portrayed as level-headed,heroic,and devastatingly handsome?Well,Stan Lee must be a pinko commie!

Just relax.Being easily offended is a Republican stereotype,you know.

[Zev]

perfect example of a staunch republican ignoring fact and reailty and using lies and half-truths to shift the focus. understand something, i am not a kerry supporter, i just know that bush is an outright moron, thats a fact, 91, say it to yourself over and over, from your posts i can gather that you have him beaten by at least 20 IQ points. that IS A LOT! he is not a smart man, and should not be our representative. "fool me once shame on you, foll me twice.... well its not gonna happen again."

anyway this is the comics board, you wanna talk (i say talk because there is no debating with someone as blindly passionate as yourself, thats not an insult, it just means you feel so strongly you will not be swayed for better or worse) politics, go over to the politics board.

I talk politics insofar as they relate to comic books, specifically worst moments. Hence, obvious smearjobs are fair game, because they are sp obvious and so unfair. All I want is a little equality between conservative and liberal thought in comic books. I want to read a comic book that doesn't insult me or my political beliefs. For instance, in Mark Waid's run on Captain America, there was a story arc in which then-President Clinton EXILED Cap. Just about the worst thing a president can do. And yet he's still portrayed in a nice, respectful manner (probably more respectful then a man who literally soiled his office deserves). Is it really so much to ask that conservatives receive the same respect?

I also find it funny that every Bush-basher I seem to meet "isn't for Kerry" or "isn't a Democrat." And I'm not smarter then Bush. When I learn to fly a jet, then I might be smarter then Bush. Oh, and speak Spanish. Still can't get the hang of that. But in this thread? Yo soy jefe.

[Zev]

Zev,you're not going to enjoy life very much if you instantly hate something simply because you think it's anti-conservative.Hey,Sideshow Bob is a villainous republican,let's boycott The Simpsons!Jameson is a conservative,AND he's not portrayed as level-headed,heroic,and devastatingly handsome?Well,Stan Lee must be a pinko commie!

Just relax.Being easily offended is a Republican stereotype,you know.

If I was easily offended, South Park wouldn't be one of my favorite shows. If I was easily offended, moments like the Punisher threatening President Bush with assassination would be Worstized. I just don't like smearjobs. Find me a conservative smearjob of liberals in comics and I'll Worstize it.

[The Hero]

Just so we have equal time, here's a Very Special Nonpartisan Worst Moment.

SPOILERS FOR SSM!

We're Basically Saying That We Care More About The Movies Then The 42-Year History Of The Comic Book, Spectacular Spider-Man 20

http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey1.jpg
http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey2.jpg
http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Spidey3.jpg

Someday, Denny O'Neil and Howard Mackie are going to write a story that will be pencilled by Humberto Ramos. It will feature a clone Spider-Man with organic webbing hitting Mary-Jane Watson because she's a conservative.

And that will be the Worstest Moment in Comic Book.

Until then, DING-DING, we have a new champion. Congratulations, Marvel. You ****ed up.
Excuse my language,but what in the ******************?What turned Peter into a ****ing Man-Spider?Paul Jenkins used to be a fantastic writer,what the hell happened?:confused:

[Zev]

Excuse my language,but what in the ******************?What turned Peter into a ****ing Man-Spider?Paul Jenkins used to be a fantastic writer,what the hell happened?:confused:

He underwent six knee and ankle surgeries in the last four years and suffered a staph infection as a result of one of them.

True story.

[The Hero]

He underwent six knee and ankle surgeries in the last four years and suffered a staph infection as a result of one of them.

True story.
Damn,all apearantly his writing skill was in his enchanted knee.

And I can't believe that I just used the term "man-spider" in reference to organic webbing.:(

[SpyderBurning]

I agree with the new organics for Spidey in SSM. Pretty soon we shall learn that Norman Osb. had sex with the Queen, who was the villian in the latest arc of SSM, and he also did something to the actual spider that bit Peter all those many years ago.

[newnoiseimage]

And I'm not smarter then Bush. When I learn to fly a jet, then I might be smarter then Bush. Oh, and speak Spanish. Still can't get the hang of that. But in this thread? Yo soy jefe.

you dont give yourself enough credit, most of the population is smarter than Bush. they can train monkeys to fly planes you know. 91. that is undisputable, listen to the man talk half of the time he butchers his speeches, and whenever he is asked questions that he doesnt have a pre-written response, he makes an ass out of himself. and you twist politics to fit into the comics, which is just crazy.

but im done discussing this with you, you wont listen to anyone not associated with W. o and your precious Swiftboat Vets for the Truth have been proven wrong and have been proven to be directly associated with the bush campaign.

i guess its true a 30 second commercial will convince its the truth because its on tv. sad really. good luck buddy.

[Zev]

you dont give yourself enough credit, most of the population is smarter than Bush. they can train monkeys to fly planes you know. 91. that is undisputable, listen to the man talk half of the time he butchers his speeches, and whenever he is asked questions that he doesnt have a pre-written response, he makes an ass out of himself. and you twist politics to fit into the comics, which is just crazy.

but im done discussing this with you, you wont listen to anyone not associated with W. o and your precious Swiftboat Vets for the Truth have been proven wrong and have been proven to be directly associated with the bush campaign.

i guess its true a 30 second commercial will convince its the truth because its on tv. sad really. good luck buddy.

Congratulations! You win the First Annual Speed-Typing Competition.

From Michael Moore's films to Al Franken's books to Jon Stewart's Daily Show to Garth Ennis' Punisher comic book, it's become quite obvious that the new manner of political expression is to do so in a matter in which debate is, if not impossible, then extremely improbable by virtue of the politics falling under "comedy" rather then "opinion". Thus, any attempt to "debate" gets a wink and a nudge, as if to say "What's the matter, can't you take a joke?" And as an intelligent human being, there's only one response. I'M GONNA GET ME SOME OF THAT!

In this new world order of complex socio-political issues being boiled down to hilarious personal attacks, there's no place for well-thought out, verbiose explanations and recountings of fact. If there were, I could point out about a dozen arguments against embryotic stem cell research. However, calm, rational debate opens the door to calm, rational rebuttal (not that I've seen any of THAT from anyone attacking me. See sig). Why should I have to put up with that simply because I am a conservative and posting on the Internet rather then through a one-way, non-interactive communication medium? Dude, don't expect me to be the only one playing fair. This ain't the Community forum. If you don't like it, as I said, find a conservative Worst Moment in comic books. Go ahead. I dare you.

In other news, John Kerry cannot achieve erection unless he is within two meters of a mule. Al Franken enjoys raping kittens. Michael Moore is so fat he has butter running through his veins instead of blood cells. And Ted Kennedy can only get joy in life by sneaking up on children who are hospitalized with the flu and injecting them with liquid AIDS.

Sources? Who needs that ****? You'll take my word for it and you'll like it. And you'll do it because I entertain you. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

[Symbiotica]

In other news, John Kerry cannot achieve erection unless he is within two meters of a mule. Al Franken enjoys raping kittens. Michael Moore is so fat he has butter running through his veins instead of blood cells. And Ted Kennedy can only get joy in life by sneaking up on children who are hospitalized with the flu and injecting them with liquid AIDS.

Sources? Who needs that ****? You'll take my word for it and you'll like it. And you'll do it because I entertain you. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

I'll grab the bull by the horns here.

Zev, I still find a great deal of [non-sardonic] humor in your posts, even tho I am not a Republican. [that's a big complement, even if you do not recognize it as such.] I enjoy reading them. How can it be?! How is it I'm not a Republican, yet still feel no desire to shish-kebab you live over Ronson-lighter-fluided coals?

Because I still enjoy displays of antic wit, even though much of the Republican platform makes me nauseous.

See, I hate George W., that Yalie C-average moron currently in the White House. But! I also recognise Democrats are not much better. So, while Kerry may enjoy s0domy with....okay, cut that off right there, W. is [i]not one whit better. In fact, he may be worse.

I hope this does not mean I'm prohibited from enjoying your posts. Yes, Moore is a fact-twisting liberal. Let's face it though, W..... that Halliburton/SAUDI-@ss-kissing-toady, is not much better.

[fifthfiend]

From Michael Moore's films to Al Franken's books to Jon Stewart's Daily Show to Garth Ennis' Punisher comic book, it's become quite obvious that the new manner of political expression is to do so in a matter in which debate is, if not impossible, then extremely improbable by virtue of the politics falling under "comedy" rather then "opinion". Thus, any attempt to "debate" gets a wink and a nudge, as if to say "What's the matter, can't you take a joke?" And as an intelligent human being, there's only one response. I'M GONNA GET ME SOME OF THAT!

Because Limbaugh hasn't been skirting any standard of honestly or fairness by billing his show as "entertainment" for well over a decade?

And damn, I must have just imagined EVERY ****ING PUNDIT IN AMERICA debating Farenheit 9/11. Mind you, by "debating" I mean repeating the same several instances in which his opinions may not have been 100% verifiable, and thusly declaring that this invalidates the entire movie, and that nobody should actually go and do anything crazy like watch the movie themselves and make up their own minds, because that's what we have pundits for.

[Herr Logan]

I've had all I can take of this bull****.

I stopped coming around this thread originally because it was too full of political ass-talk and propaganda. I've tried to find the humor in Zev's posts I used to see, despite the vast political differences between us, but this just isn't worth it anymore. It's his thread, he can do what he wants with it, but I have no wish to read more conservative nonsense posturing, waiting liberals like maxwell's demon and the like start pouring in to retaliate ad nauseum and continue to pollute a thread that used to be interesting and entertaining.

Enjoy.

[Dwarf lord]

soon it will all be over. The election is 5 days away.

[fifthfiend]

Wow, just ran across Zed's response to my earlier comments, and boy is there a lot of fun to be had there.

Fair warning: as the following is pretty much all-political, no-comical opinion, so if you're sick of this **** then you can probably just skip on ahead.

Fox News? Presumably there's still a difference between 'Conservative' and 'Just Likes Being ****ing Ignorant'.

I think there's an interesting article you should read.

So let's see... I ask you about the difference between conservatism and ignorance, and you give me a Wall Street Journal Op-Ed Page (by the by, I always loved how the online WSJ news reporting requires a paid subscription, but they give the op-ed section away for free, which tells you pretty much everything you need to know about that organization) article screaming about how "'Mainstream' reporters aren't just liberal--they're fanatical."

That's right, this rabidly liberal media that published every crap allegation anybody ever came up with about Clinton, then acted pissed off at the American people for having the gall to reelect him, decided to call Al Gore the dishonest candidate in 2000, a charge based on a handful of statements by Gore that were, um, true, while showing not the least interest in Bush's record as governor of Texas, especially his supposed "miracle" in education which reduced the number of dropouts by doctoring official numbers to erase the kids who'd dropped out, instructed America that not lining up behind Bush after 9-11 was tantamount to personally volunteering to give oral sex to Osama, calling everyone who said that, well, maybe a war in Iraq might not be the best idea in the world a wackjob, buried Howard Dean on the basis of, um... he made one funny noise one time?, gave weeks of coverage to the Swift Boat Veterans for Making **** Up, allows Howard Kurtz to call himself a non-biased media critic despite his regular regurgitation of RNC talking points and marriage to a freaking Republican pollster, allows reporters like Adam Nagourney to cover Kerry despite said reporter's stated personal hatred of Kerry, prints the name and home address of someone in the New York Times because that person dared to write in saying that Adam Nagourney was a crappy, biased reporter, allows Bush to continually repeat Kerry's "voted against the 87 billion before voting against it" line without ever bothering to point out that there were two ****ing bills, the latter of which shafted the troops and took out the anti-profiteering restrictions (because it would be so effing unfair to private enterprise to include a clause saying that private companies in Iraq are not allowed to rip off the American public), which publishes wire service articles about voter supression which equates Republican efforts to take legally registered voters to court to defend those voters own voting rights (http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10042113.htm) with Democrats who, um... well, criticized George Bush, which didn't give half a **** about "Free-Speech" zones when George Bush was having the Secret Service set them up as early as 2002 but suddenly decided it cared during the Democratic National Convention, largely neglecting to mention that even at that event the Secret Service was in charge of the whole thing and that the Democrats had ****-all control over it, which buried Walter Pincus' stellar reporting about Iraq on page A17 while printing Rumsfeld's spin-points and fantasies on page A1, of which in fact a majority of newspapers endorsed GEORGE W BUSH in 2000.... yes, that "liberal" media.

But that article of yours has lots and lots of evidence proving liberal media bias, consisting of.... one lede for a wire service story for which he can't be bothered to mention publication date, the reporter's name, any context for what was said, or basically any way of verifying anything... one story in which a reporter calls some Saudi Arabians "gunmen" instead of "terrorists," not that mr. WSJ can bother explaining why these people are terrorists aside from "Well they're doin' bad stuff and they're darkies, so what else would you call them?".... and something about being insufficiently supportive of Bill Cosby complaining that kids today wear their pants the wrong way and insufficiently hateful towards the movie Day After Tomorrow.

And on the basis of this, he declares the media "fanatical."

So I take it that replying to my original question by giving me this little waste of newsprint and/or electrons was your way of saying "None whatsoever."

Gotcha.

And Schwarzenegger? Yes, Bishop has always seemed to me like the kind of character who would admire a phony tough-talking Hollywood boy who gives half-hour speeches made entirely of disjointed 10-second sound bytes and thinks "economic girlie men" makes him sound like something other than a pissy 9-year-old whose daddy used to beat him with the WSJ Op-Ed page.

Ten bucks says he would not say that to the Austrian Oak's face.

Tone down the man-worship just a touch, eh?

P.S. I notice you weren't able to actually tell me I was wrong. So, gotcha.

Let me make this clear, in the real world, there has not been a police state as a result of terrorist actions, all Muslims have not been oppressed and imprisoned, etc. Yet we're supposed to believe that in a similar situation, mutants are given this treatment of basically being executed on the spot without being read their rights or given a chance to surrender. Completely unrealistic. The least they could do is make a fictional president and not identify his party affiliation. That would be fair and even.

Except it would look pretty stupid for the Marvel Universe to name check everyone from Shannon Elizabeth to Bill Gates and then have some fill-in-the-blank stand in as President, and the Sentinels were executing people on the spot in the Goddamn SIXTIES, well before anybody ever came up with the Patriot Act.


Sorry to break it to you, but when writers have a book about massive social upheavel and have to slap a label on the group opposed to that change, they're going to go with the label which is expressly and by definition opposed to social change.

Yes, we all know how Republicans, throughout history, have opposed social change. Like Abraham Lincoln, for instance. Everything was status quo with him.


1. I was referencing the use of the word "conservative", not "republican." Since you honestly seem not to understand this word, allow me to help:

con·ser·va·tive

adj.

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

I mean what, does the ****ING DICTIONARY have a liberal bias now?

2. Nice job having to go back 140 years to find a forward-thinking Republican.

And now he makes it clear that he sees everyone who disagrees with him as

A. Ignorant

B. Racist

and

C. Sexist

This is quite possibly the most partisan individual I've ever met. Might I suggest that if you don't like a conservative man exercising his right to free speech, you start your own thread (maybe "Baddest Seconds in Graphic Novels").

Since when does the right to free expression include freedom from having those views criticized by others? And how does this freedom not apply to your criticism of what you percieve to be Marvel's views? Sorry if you can't handle opposing viewpoints, I must have missed the "CONSERVATIVES ONLY!" label in the subject line.

And, after running a nine-page thread dedicated to attacking Marvel's 'liberal bias', a bias which your WSJ indiscretions would seem to indicate that you believe is held by every reporter on the face of the Earth, you say I'm the most partisan individual you've ever met? Do you even own a mirror?

------------------

And that's about enough of that. As of now, I'm putting it away until the election's over, I promise (note that by "election" I mean the actual day of voting, not the months-long legal ****fest that's bound to... oh, hell, I'm going on again, that's it I'm seriously cutting it off now).

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I LOVE and am very impressed by EVERYONE's views and opinions here. It does my heart good that so many of you are truly invested in your belief systems. Unfortunatly, this thread also demonstrates the problems we're having as a country in that, to some, mere membership in the other camp invalidates your opinion or makes you evil or stupid. I should note that I am an independant who is VERY conservative. I believe that there are great folks on both sides of the isle, but the partys have been hijacked by haters. On MY list of haters and idiots, Carville and Moore go right beside Rush. As a consevative, I think it's a terrible thing that a lackluster fellow like Bush can be hailed as an actual conservative when he's not for SOOOO many reasons. I also think it's terrible when a do nothing goof like Kerry gets the support of so many decent people just because he's got a D after his name. In my humble opinion, as bad as Bush has been, Kerry will dig us a real hole and mismanage COMPLETELY (rather than moderatly) a war of both arms and IDEALS that we MUST win for our granchildren's sakes. I hope that you all vote. I hope that you all vote YOUR consciences. But between now and Tuesday really look at both of these guys and RESEARCH who they are and what they've done, juxtaposing it with what we, as a country have to accomplish in the next 4 years. EXCELSIOR!

Now- worst moments in comics...Avengers #503. Every page; total crap!

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

PS; The predjudice that I'm most tired of is this garbage about the President being stupid either because he's not slickly articulate or because he had a C average in college. Before the evil of telemarketing presidential candidates, the ability to LEAD was actually a factor. I was fortunate enough as a child to have one of those IQs that couldn't be measured (whiskey & head trauma has since taken care of that!) but after realizing that you got picked on equally no matter which kind of "special" bus you got on, and girls in high school only liked dumb guys, I just blew that off. I graduated High School with a 1.7 GPA. Whooo Hooo! Does that make me dumb? No. Just unmotivated at that time. Am I that same person? God, no. Both of these men are people of intellectual gifts and great accomplishments in their lives. Period. That's why we are discussing them and not the other way around.
With respect and communication, we can change the world, but you can't have one without the other.
Now back to how badly Bendis sucks!

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Bendis is the worst moment in comics. ;)

[Zev]

Dude, **** it.

Spider-Man Vs. Republican Scene 3: The Search for Spock, Amazing Spider-Man 91

Peter walks down a street, whereupon the inhabitants of a mysterious car spots him. The boss orders his henchman to tail him. “How can you be sure he can help us, boss?” one of the passengers inquires.

“Easy! He’s snapped more news pictures of the wall-crawler than anyone! He’s gotta know a lot more about him than he’s been tellin’!” Which makes me wonder when Peter Parker stopped asking for anonymity on his photos from Jameson.

Peter’s spider-sense tingles, alerting him to someone following me (this is back in the day where it worked more like Daredevil’s all-purpose ‘radar sense’ instead of a straightforward danger sense). A look inside the car reveals that Bullit is ordering the men around, which must be a surprise to all the second-graders in the audience (and fifthfiend).

“Hold it, boy! He wants to talk to you! Do you know who he is?” the pair of thugs grabbing Peter ask. You’d think Bullit would want to keep his hands clean of some dastardly deed-doing, but no. Bullit steps out of the car and is immediately identified by Peter.

“Okay! Then you know I don’t mince words! I’m out to get Spider-Man—and you can help me! So start talking!” Bullit says, perhaps in an attempt to speak with sentences that only end in exclamation points. Peter refuses.

“Son, I’m trying to clean up this city! Nobody’s gonna stop me!” Bullit rants in a threatening way that no politician (okay, maybe Zell Weller) would even consider. “Anyone who doesn’t help me is on the side of the lawless! Now you’re not taking a stand against law and order, are you?”

“You pious hypocrite!” Peter exclaims, perhaps not realizing pious isn’t really an insult. “You call this law and order?” Of course, he’s only able to say this because Bullit has made his offer to Peter in the most idiotic way imaginable when just offering a cash reward would work at least ten times better.

“I’m just trying to do my duty, boy!” Bullit replies, using more youth-based nicknames then Foghorn Leghorn in a daycare center.

“Yeah? That’s probably what Hitler said, too!” Peter shoots back, confirming that all the ‘good’ characters know Bullit is slime (except for Gwen, who is only a female, after all). And reinforcing the ‘conservatives equal Nazis’ message. No mention has been made of “liberals equal Communists” though. Which is kinda unfair, especially as the ‘conservatives equal KKK’ cliché ALSO pops up later.

Bullit decides to stop ‘reasoning’ with Peter and drives away, leaving his ‘friends’ to beat Peter into submission.

“He’s a rotten Commie radical!” one of the thugs says while slugging a defiant Peter. That really kind of speaks for itself.

Peter plays possum. One of the thug sees through it by checking his pulse. They beat him again and this time assume the job takes, but as soon as they turn the Peter climbs up a building, then changes into his Spidey-costume in “seconds”. Man, that skill at undressing is going to come in handy once he partners up with Black Cat. Oh yeah, I went there.

Spider-Man quickly catches up with the thugs. He grabs one and hangs him by the streetlights, then intimidates the other with the Spider-Signal (how effective is it in broad daylight?). The other thug flees. Spider-Man basically plays hide and seek with his Spider-Signal until the thug pulls a gun.

“No matter how good you are—a .45 can stop you!” the thug reasons. Spider-Man grabs it from his hand with a webline (and the unlikely sound effect “Zik!”)

Spider-Man webs the thug up in a net, then hangs him up and knocks him around like a piñata. “I’ve a little message for you to give Brother Bullit! And I want make sure you get it straight—so I’ll punctuate it nice and careful for you!”

Spidey lets the thug land with a ‘Sptanng!” then runs off. Now sure that Bullit’s up to no good, Spider-Man swings to warn Gwen. He enters his apartment to changes clothes, then sees Gwen and Bullit waiting for him.

“Spider-Man! The one who—killed my father!” Gwen gasps.

“We thought there was a connection between you and Parker!” Bullit says. “And now—we have our proof!”

And that’s the end of this issue, although the ‘preview’ proclaims that the next issue will feature “More of the same” (oh, goodie) plus “The attack of Iceman!”

Oh, and fifthfiend, I'm more inclined to listen to the guy who wrote Ender's Game then some guy on the Internet who cannot punctuate or capitalize his name properly. Just so you know.

Also, everyone who disagrees with me has on some occasion had sexual intercourse with their father.

[Symbiotica]

PS; The predjudice that I'm most tired of is this garbage about the President being stupid either because he's not slickly articulate or because he had a C average in college. Before the evil of telemarketing presidential candidates, the ability to LEAD was actually a factor.

The problem here, Victor, is that without his coaches, Bush can't lead all that well.

I enjoyed watching him during the debates, which highlighted Bush's mental flat-footedness. He's not a real mentally-agile guy. If it's not scripted, if he's not speaking to a crowd of hand-picked, loyalty-oath-swearin' Faithful, if someone dares ask him a tough question.... he does not do really well. Ever notice?

A C-average at Yale is not enough for me to declare someone a bit slow; after all, Einstein had a lot of trouble in school too. But along with that C-average, he's shown us many times that he's really not that smart of a guy. When he ad-libs, he always ends up with some unintentional laugh-out-loud funny "witticism," such as calling terrorists "a group of folks," as though they were relatives spotted at a family reunion or something.

Bush surrounds himself with people who do his thinking for him. Take away those people, and you see what he really is. Mind you, I'm not a Democrat either and Kerry definitely has his shortcomings. But W.... sheesh.

However I will agree: Bendis is definitely a Worst Comics Moment. Not as bad a moment as the infamous Mackie, true, but a Worst Moment to be contended with nonetheless.

And with that I am done, because these political threads tend to turn into hotbeds of trouble/namecalling. :gg:

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

And with that I am done, because these political threads tend to turn into hotbeds of trouble/namecalling. :gg:
Yes; so odd in a country like ours which benifits so heavily from pluralism and diversity.

And truly, I can't argue with any or your points except to say that I honestly do not know what goes on behind the scenes or who coaches whom. My posts were mainly a simple call to civility and giving everyone a fair shake. We all have talents and perhaps due to my (possibly erroneous) belief in the American system would like to think that ANY man who makes it to the Presidency has a plethora of them. :)

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Organic Webshooters, Gwendy & Norman and Avengers #503. CRAP-O-LICIOUS!!

[Zev]

It's Halloween! That oh-so-special time of year dedicated to dressing up in costumes for the young-uns, while the elders (that's you and me) eat candy that we're supposed to "give away" and watch scary movies. A night devoted to eating candy and watching scary movies. And the scariest thought of all... that the Clone Saga ended ON THIS VERY NIGHT with the return of Norman Osborn. So what better then next month (that's starting tomorrow, for all you snorters in the audience) to tackle the Clone Saga. Yeah, that's right, the whole thing. Or what I have of it, anyway. A confusing tangle of false twists, stretched-out storylines, bad writing, and generally stupid stuff. It starts tomorrow and Worst Moments will never be the same!

Okay, it probably will be quite the same. But still, the Clone Saga!

Republicans Vs. Spider-Man Part 2: Electric Boogaloo, Amazing Spider-Man 92

The cover of Amazing Spider-Man 92, labeled ‘When Iceman Attacks!’ (as ‘When Iceman Suggests Rational Discourse To Ensure That Possible Misunderstandings Don’t Engender Conflict!’ doesn’t really work that well), shows Spider-Man swinging with Gwen Stacy in his arms, caught halfway between fainting and wailing on her clenched fists in “Put me down!” ineffectualness. Iceman is pursuing on one of those physics-free slides that allow him to actually travel upwards. “This time you’re facing a pro, webhead!” he brags (despite the fact that he’s actually the youngest and least experienced of the X-Men) as he clips Spidey’s webline with an icicle. This while said vigilante is still holding Gwen, making Iceman look like a bit of a dickweed. “Not now! I can’t fight him now!” Spider-Man says, probably due to him having Gwen in his arms at the time, but maybe he really, really needs to use the bathroom.

The first panel of the next page shows a little flashback to the last panel of the last issue. You know, “We thought there was a connection between you and Parker—and now… we have our proof!”

Spider-Man decides to do something drastic to make sure they don’t suspect he’s really Peter Parker, so he grabs Gwen and jumps out the window! “You’ll never try to trap me again!” he shouts.

Running along the side of the wall, he explains that “I don’t like being called a killer, lady!”

“Well, maybe you shouldn’t kill people then,” is the answer Gwen doesn’t give. Pity, Mary-Jane probably would.

“Your father’s death was an accident! I didn’t go to Parker’s apartment to see him—I was following you!

Behind him, Bullit assumes another crazy pose, his caterpillar-like eyebrows developing a demonic arch. “I don’t care what happens to the girl!” he thinks to himself, just in case we doubt that he was, you know, evil. “This’ll give my law and order campaign the push it needs!”

Gwen shouts out campaign promises at Spider-Man, like “When he’s elected D.A., he’ll finish you!”

“Sure he will! Just like Goliath finished David!” Spider-Man says, proving that his casting as an underdog isn’t unwilling (although points on the reference).

“Stop whackin’ me! You’d be in some spot if I dropped you now!” Spider-Man threatens, assuming that ‘spot’ was several stories down on the street. “I dunno what that pipsqueak Parker sees in you!” he continues, suggesting problems in the relationship that lurk well below the surface. This is, again, one of those moments he’ll have to explain when (and if?) he finally tells his identity to Gwen. “Wait, if you’re Spider-Man, what were you thinking when you kidnapped me?”

Below, Bobby Drake (sporting a horrid mauve plaid jacket and accompanied by a gal in an all-orange dress, complete with micro-skirt. “Look how she’s struggling in panic!” (if not in intelligence) he thinks to himself as his girlfriend (?) exclaims, her hands on the side of her face like Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone. “Bobby—look! Oh, that poor girl!”

Well, I didn’t notice her before, but now that you pointed it out…

“Why doesn’t somebody do something?” girlfriend asks, displaying an annoying tendency to complain about inaction while NOT DOING ANYTHING HERSELF. Whore.

“Against Spider-Man? Bite your tongue, baby!” Bobby exclaims, apparently covering for his fellow superhero. Unfortunately, his girlfriend does not react to his jerky attitude with a raised knee. And in his thought bubble, Bobby agrees with gal pal, so I guess he was just being contrary. Aren’t they a little young to be an old married couple?

“It’s getting late, honey! I’ll call a cab for you!” Bobby says, continuing his brilliant portrayal of a controlling, dominating jerk.

“Late? But--!” girlfriend exclaims in surprise.

“A guy needs his beauty sleep! Taxi!” Bobby says, heedless of the possibility of having a little company for his beauty ‘sleep’ and too smart to insinuate that his girlfriend may need ‘beauty sleep’, proving that while stupid, he’s not suicidal.

“I hated to do it, specially after it took me WEEKS to finally get a date with her! But this is more important!” Bobby says, when he really should have a little more faith in his fellow freak (he is a MUTANT, right?). But this raises an interesting quandary. Spider-Man’s Spider-Sense didn’t warn him about Gwen and Bullit’s presence so that he had to abduct Gwen, who started struggling (stupid as that is) so that Bobby can see her struggling and assume that she’s in trouble so that Spidey and Iceman can fight. Yup, this is one tightly-constructed plot.

In an alleyway, Bobby strips off his shirt, freezes up, and takes off after Spider-Man on an ‘ice-bridge’ (which moves him forward and rises, so it’s more like an ice-escalator).

Meanwhile, Spider-Man decides to do a reversal of the ‘badmouth Spider-Man so no one suspects Peter Parker’ trick he employed in Amazing Spider-Man 8, apparently since someone could conclude “Well, Peter Parker is an weak science nerd, but he likes Spider-Man, so he must be the guy!”

“First about that dum-dum Parker—“ he begins, apparently to make sure we don’t confuse Peter with that Dum-Dum Dugan (obscure joke, you are cleared for landing).

“You loathsome arrogant savage!” Gwen hisses in a fit of indignation. “You aren’t even fit to mention Peter’s name! He’s more man than you could ever hope to be!” She may not stand up for herself, but hellfire if she doesn’t stand by her man! And, by extension, the secretly evil political candidate who’s vowed to rid the city of Spider-Man. And it’s a good thing Norman killed her when he did. Imagine the response after Spider-Man beat down Norman and complained about him to Gwen!

Before this unknown lovers’ quarrel can go any further, Iceman arrives. “You’ve had it, you overrated creep! I never thought you’d stoop to pushing females around!” he announces, apparently deciding that now is not the time to have faith in mankind or even give them a chance to explain themselves. Professor X would be so proud…

“Now lets see what you can do against some real opposition!” he roars while firing a stream of projectiles at Spider-Man that resembles nothing so much as crushed ice. “My whole purpose was to act like a king-size heel—the way Gwen could never believe that Peter would act!” Spider-Man thinks to himself, once more showing the kind of short-term thinking that will really bites him in the ass if he ever tells Gwendy his secret (“You’re Spider-Man? I met him! He’s an *******!” Then again, he could just say it was a Doombot in disguise).

“You’re barkin’ up the wrong tree, you frost-bitten freak!” says Spider-Man, apparently unaware of the irony of HIM calling someone ELSE a freak (as crawling on walls and lifting cars is perfectly natural). Apparently unaware of the social faux pass in calling a mutant a freak (nice, sensitive Spidey…) he continues “But, if it’s a FIGHT you’re looking for…”

“A fight, Spider-Man? Don’t flatter yourself!” Iceman interrupts, proving that neither superhuman is gonna be getting any praise from Miss Manners anytime soon. “You’re not even in my league!” he brags as he constructs a patch of ice for Spider-Man to slip on (why, yes, this is accompanied by a big “SLLIPPP” sound effect). Astonishingly, Spidey doesn’t bother to make a joke about how Iceman’s league appears to be the “Minor irritant that might result in a skinned knee or elbow at worst” league. I think Tom Hanks and Geena Davis made a movie about it.

“I can handle a dozen like you—without catching my breath!” Iceman concludes.

“Do you need a special passport—for that EGO TRIP of yours?” Spider-Man asks, which is a good ‘zing’ even for him, if a little generic.

“Be careful, Iceman!” Gwen advises in lieu of, you know, actually HELPING him (but then, Gwen’s always been of the “wring hands as the menfolk go about wrassling” variety). “Don’t let his flippancy disarm you! He’s killed before—and he might do it again!”

Far be it for me to think that the fact that Spider-Man is on his ass, apparently helpless before Iceman’s (cough) awesome assault is a bit more ‘disarming’ then the fact that he’s kidding around.

Just then, the police arrive, led by Sam Bullit. “Police! Starting to throw a cordon around the block! If I don’t take off now—I’ll be trapped up here!” Spider-Man thinks, apparently forgetting that he can WEB-SWING!

“S’matter, wall-crawler? Were you happier fighting a helpless girl?” Iceman asks, mustering all his self-righteousness. And is it just me or did he just call himself a helpless girl?

“When the people see how I’ve hounded Spider-Man—How I’ve kept him on the run—I’ll have the election for D.A. all sewn-up! It’ll be a landslide!” Bullit raves (in fact, every time Bullit says something from now on, assumes he raves, rants, or screams). “And if he’s captured—or killed—Sam Bullit will be on hand to take credit for it!”

Of course, how dare he presume to take credit for Spider-Man’s capture or death. After all, he ONLY led the police to Spider-Man…

“Can’t wait any longer! Have to cut out—while I can! I just hope my story was convincing enough—for Gwen!” Spider-Man thinks as he leaves, although I don’t know what the police were bringing to bear that would prevent him from ‘cutting out’ later. And second, WHAT STORY? Basically all he said was that Captain Stacy’s death was an accident.

“Wow! Will ya look at that! It’s one of the X-MEN! He SAVED the girl!” a cop observes as Iceman brings Gwen down to earth (now that she’s had any trouble in that department). Enjoy it while you can, Icy.

Of course, Bullit isn’t happy about the possibility of Iceman stealing his credit (humorously, he complains that Iceman “cramps my style!” Hand to God, folks). Then, thinking fact, he considers that “Maybe I can USE that human ice-cube!”

He quickly cozies up to Iceman, giving the impression that Iceman works for him (although if they REALLY wanted to be funny, Iceman would catch on and demand his ‘wage’ from the undoubtedly-miserly (he’s a CONSERVATIVE, ain’t he?) Bullit). “Stay on his tail! I want him caught—understand?” Bullit continues, and impressively Iceman refrains from telling him to sit on it and rotate.

[Zev]

Spider-Man Vs. Republicans, Part 2, Scene 2, Amazing Spider-Man 92

In the next panel, as “the campaign nears its feverish climax”, several Daily Bugle newspapers announce that “Bullit vows to crush Spider-Man!” and we get another nosehair-cam view of Bullit hamming it up. “I’ll bring law and order to this town! Law and order!” Which is, of course, an incredibly bad thing I guess. “With Spider-Man dead or captured, New York will be SAFE again!” Meanwhile, captions make sure that the panels has more Law and Orders on it then TNT’s Evening Line-Up (d’oh, I made a funny!).

And at Bullit’s pad, the telephone rings. “Answer it, Carter!” Bullit orders. “If it’s another INTERVIEW, say I’m too BUSY!” Yeah, that’s right, a politician turning down free publicity. Now I KNOW this is sci-fi.

“I got the election sewed up! Don’t need to bother anymore!” Bullit continues.

“It’s Jameson—from the Daily Bugle! Sounds important!” Carter says.

“I better see what the old goat wants!” Bullit concedes “What? You’re thinking of WITHDRAWING your paper’s SUPPORT of me?!! You’re outta your mind!” he barks as soon as he answers the phone.

The scene switches to the Bugle office, where his tirade continues. “You want your readers to think you’re against law and order? You CAN’T back out now!”

“I can’t, huh? I wouldn’t bet on it, Bullit!” Jameson fires back, now having been converted to the side of Right and Virtue (i.e., liberalism).

“Now you’re talkin’, JJ!” Robbie encourages. And since the With-It Black Man approves, of course Jameson has now Seen The Light. Anyone else find it interesting how when Jameson pursues “liberal” concerns like civil rights, he’s in the right and a nice guy, but when he’s thinking conservatively, he’s a psychotic *******? I mean, it couldn’t be that he’s a conservative that also believes in civil rights, right?

“Yeah, yeah—I know the Bugle’s supported you up till now—but that was before I LEARNED some things!” Jameson continues. Uh-oh, looks like those Swiftboat Vets for the Truth have struck again! Nah, just kidding… but I can DREAM, can’t I?

“What’s wrong, boss?” Carter inevitably asks on the other end of the line. “What’s the rush? Where are you going?”

“We’re going, mister! You’re coming with me! We’re payin’ a little visit to Jonah Jameson!” Plausible deniability, Bullit! Henchmen! Third-parties! Ugh, what’s the use… “No one’s gonna pull the rug out from under me when I’m THIS close to bein’ D.A.!” Bullit promises, apparently forgetting that he had the election ‘sewed up’.

“And if Jameson thinks he’s big enough to buck me—we’ll have to do a little convincing!”

“Yeah, boss,” Carter agrees as he loads a revolver. “And we got a mighty good argument!”

Begging the question, why doesn’t Bullit just send Carter instead of getting involved himself?

Minutes later, Jameson answers the intercom. “What’s that? Bullit outside, with one of his bodyguards?”

I really want to hear the other end of these conversations sometimes.

“Bullit’s outside with one of his bodyguards!”

“What’s that?”

“Bullit’s outside with one of his bodyguards!”

“Bullit outside, with one of his bodyguards?”

“That’s right.”

But enough of that. “Bodyguard, my foot, JJ!” Robbie says. “It’s one of the hoods on his payroll!”

I think Robbie’s being a bit judgmental here. I mean, don’t ALL politicians have the “hoods on their payroll” to protect them?

“Just send Bullit in! I don’t need a convention!” Jameson says.

“You you’re wisin’ up, man! But watch yourself!” Robbie advises, apparently for fear that, I don’t know, Bullit will present a well-reasoned excuse for Jameson’s evidence and convince him that he’s really a good guy. Or threaten him into supporting the law and order campaign. One of those two.

“All right, newsman!” Bullit raves as he walks in. “If you know something, spill it!”

“That’s just what I intend to do—right on the front page!” Jameson replies.

Jameson points out that Bullit’s ‘strongarm boys’ forgot that Peter worked for the Bugle (remember, they tried to muscle him last issue?). Peter told them everything and Jameson believes him. Why? IITS.

“So that’s what you got in your craw, huh?” Bullit asks. But as if that wasn’t bad (as in ‘insulting to conservatives’ enough)…

“There’s lots more, Bullit! Parker’s story just served to open Jameson’s eyes—but I’VE kept a DOSSIER on you!” Robbie says as he holds up the dossier. So why didn’t he share this with Jonah before Peter told the story (thus implying that Jameson trusts a freelance photographer more then his own City Editor)? Oh, right, IITS.

“I haven’t been city editor all these years for nothing!” Robbie says in a panel that shows his finger pointed squarely at a fuming Bullit. “I know where your support comes from!”

Three guesses where this is coming from. And it ain’t “completely legitimate campaign contributions.”

“I know about the lunatic HATE GROUPS who are backing you! I know what you REALLY mean by—LAW AND ORDER!” Robbie finishes.

Just once I’d like to see a liberal point at a conservative and say “I know where your support comes from! Middle-class families!”

You know. Just for a change of pace.

“I know what you think of MINORITY GRUOPTS—and the PLANS you’ve got for them!” Which makes me wonder what ANY elected official could really do against minorities, especially a D.A. I mean, is he going to prosecute minorities more then WASP offenders?

“Anyone ever tell ya you know TOO MUCH, black man?” Bullit says, and you just KNOW he’s not THINKING ‘black man.’

“SHUDDUP! Robbie is gonna HANG you, Bullit!” Jameson says, pointing his own finger at Bullit. “My paper’s acting on the evidence he’s gathered (which makes me wonder how many city editors do investigative reporting)! We’re RENOUNCING our support of you! We’re switching to NELSON! You’ve HAD it, BIGOT!”

So, let me get this straight. The “good guys” are a newspaper that’s planning to release damaging information days before the election? THAT sounds familiar…

After a little more conversation, Bullit storms out, slamming the door behind him. Jameson and Robbie pat themselves on the back.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

The side of the brain which produces creativity also insures a certain disconnect with reality. A disconnect with reality produces liberal thinking, which we all know doesn't actually work in the real world. (Just look at the last 30 years of societal degeneration due to these concepts being forced upon us by BOTH political parties) As such, Zev, we should expect a certain amount of liberalism in all our art forms. These pretend stories must be foisted upon us by liberal thinkers because real world examples can never prove their point.

[stiltman]

soon it will all be over. The election is 5 days away.
And the re-counts will be over in another two months. Should make for a fun time here on a comic site, of all places, for spirited political debate.

[Zev]

Spider-Man Vs. Republicans, Part 2, Scene 3, Amazing Spider-Man 92

Outside, the two hoods that hassled Peter before are heading for Robbie’s office. Peter follows them as they take Robbie hostage (!).

Peter gets to the roof and changes into Spider-Man just as the hoods force Robbie into a tank-sized blue sedan. However, as Spidey gets down to following it, ice wraps around his foot (ZRASP!). Which is odd, as you’d think Iceman’s powers would freeze Spider-Man’s feet instead.

Spider-Man breaks free of the ice and swings away as Iceman pursues.

“VERRRRY clever, webhead!” Iceman says, proving that his low SAT scores aren’t flukes. “Too bad it won’t do you any good!”

They fight, ending when Spider-Man smashes Iceman’s ice-bridge and leaves him in a hanging web-net. Spidey then follows the thugs to an abandoned warehouse, where Bullit himself is waiting for Robbie. Proxies, Bullit, you have to do these things IMPERSONALLY! I mean, you didn’t see Richard Nixon breaking into Watergate himself, did you?

Iceman closes in on the warehouse as Bullit says that “With YOU gone, your file’s WORTHLESS!” How does that work, exactly? Wouldn’t it make more sense to hold Robbie hostage to make Jameson kill the story? But no, Bullit orders his men to kill Robbie and leaves.

Iceman arrives, but sees that Spider-Man was right (he said he had to save someone in the car earlier) and joins him for the Obligatory Team-Up. Spider-Man’s webbing takes out one hood’s pistol as Iceman freezes the other.

“ZOWEEE, webhead! Do your thing!” Iceman says as he descends an ice-fire pole (if that’s not an oxymoron). “But leave some for me!” Shut up, Iceman.

Spider-Man and Iceman mop up the remaining gang, then catch up with Bullit as he attends a fund-raising gala (where, bizarrely, he says he won’t be intimidated by “the turncoat NEWSPAPERS.” Then what was the point of kidnapping Robbie if the Bugle has already published the story?)

“Sam Bullit is a LIAR—and a CROOK!” Spider-Man announces from the doorway. No one says “Well, of course, he’s a politician!”

“It’s all over, Bullit! Your gunnies spilled everything to the police!” Spider-Man continues.

“And so did Joe Robertson!” Iceman chimes in. Geez, you’re such a brownnoser, Drake.

“No! No! He’s dead! Robertson is dead! He has to be! My boys never fail me!” Bullit screams, which doesn’t do wonders for his perceived innocence.

“Like they say—there’s always a first time!” Spider-Man says. Not for you and Gwen, webhead (I know, I know, that was a low blow).

Bullit continues to rave about “Lies!” as his guests leave (wow! I guess they really trust Spider-Man and Iceman). In the next panel the police are arresting Bullit as Iceman and Robbie look on, proving that warrants can be served for prominent citizens very, very fast in the Marvel U.

Well, I guess that’ll teach people to want law and order.

[Zev]

CLONE SAGA MONTH! CLONE SAGA MONTH! CLONE SAGA MONTH!

The Clone Saga Begins, Spider-Man 51

The revelation that Peter’s returned parents were really androids sent him, well, over the edge. He separated his personality from Peter Parker and began thinking deep thoughts like "I am Spider" and "Parker is dead." And for some reason, the writers decided to stretch this out for months and months (including the poster boy for unresolved Spider-Man plots, “Who is F.A.C.A.D.E.?”), until the fans started losing interest. They wanted the carefree, wisecracking Spider-Man back.

Proving that oft times Marvel had nothing in their collective skulls to prevent something from going in one ear and out the other, they decided to replace Peter Parker with Ben Reilly, his bachelor clone. Or not. Whatever. It’s complicated.

In early 1994, Aunt May fell into a coma. A mysterious stranger was headed back into Peter’s life, needing to see May before she died. In Spectacular Spider-Man 216, it was revealed that the mystery man was… the CLONE!

In the first of many four-parters that ran through all four core titles (and this kind of saturation and overexposure played a large factor in making the Clone Saga as crappy as it was, hence Marvel’s attempts present-day to restrain Spider-Man to at least two books), Power and Responsibility, Spider-Man immediately freaks out upon seeing the clone. He acts like a loon, going so far as to say “I hate Peter Parker!” when called that by Ben, who is far more calm and collected (hence encouraging sympathy for Ben).

Ben manages to knock Peter on his ass (setting him up as a badass ready to take over the reins of Spider-Man, despite being out of practice for five years), as Dr. Judas Traveller (one of five thousand nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic beings, not to be confused with the ten thousand shadowy mystery men like Ben Reilly, Kaine, Jacob Raven, Gaunt, etc.) took over Ravencroft Institute to study the nature of evil. Because that’s the kind of thing nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic beings do. He has the Host, four supervillains who do stuff for him, as well as yet another magical, enigmatic being for a sidekick, Scrier. They all basically stood around and talked in riddles so as to set up various things to come that would shock and surprise us, etc. Spider-Man was lured to Ravencroft under the threat that Traveller would release all the inmates. After failing to take down Traveller, he broke down crying (like a little GIRL!) at Traveller’s feet. Which takes us to today’s story.

And if you’re guessing that a magical, enigmatic being doesn’t fit into the realistic, down-to-earth world Spider-Man, you’re absolutely right.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man, written by our old friend Howard Mackie, opens as Ben talks with Aunt May about leaving Peter at Ravencroft to die and taking over his life. Stupid plan, as anyone can tell you. I mean, it’s not like you can fake FIVE YEARS of memories, especially those five years include being married to someone.

But Ben decides to do the right thing, because he is noble and pure and come ASM 400, he will be the one true Spider-Man (seriously, that was the plan. And then thirty years down the line, when BEN is married and about to have a kid, we can bring in a clone of him and go back to carefree, bachelor Spider-Man). Ben takes some “mementos” out of his backpack consisting of a Spider-Man mask and gloves. He puts them on over his civilian clothes and web-swings away.

Then it’s on to a false scare at the nurse’s station, as a nurse observes that she’s “getting a flatline on the Parker monitor.”

“Her heart,” the doctor rather unnecessarily whispers. They rush to help her, but, hoho, the monitor cable was just disconnected (!). Geez, talk about your crummy HMO services!

At Ravencroft, Spider-Man has been imprisoned by Traveller. He talks with one of the Host, “Nacht,” the note-taker, who’s dressed in a fedora and trenchcoat. If I worked for a nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic being, I’d insist on a little better wardrobe, but that’s just me.

Traveller orders Nacht to have “Boone and Medea” engage him. He also asks that Boone keep Medea in line, as apparently she’s the “shoot first, ask questions after reloading” type. Good help is SO hard to find these days, even for nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic beings.

Outside, a smoky barrier keeps the authorities from entering. Actually, it looks for all the world like Cheech and Chong have decided to enjoy themselves, but whatever you say, story. Ben gets in by walking through it, because they were expecting him.

He dodges a laser beam shot by Medea, who must have a thing for the Salvation Army, as she’s wearing the Watcher’s cape and Typhoid Mary’s tattered fishnet stockings. If you’re going to go with fishnet stockings and you’re working with a nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic being, the least you can do is make sure they’re not torn.

Boone; a tracker carrying a big knife and wearing big black boots, black pants, a black shirt, a brown jacket, and Back To The Future 2 sunglasses (as well as a mullet! What does working with nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic beings do to your fashion sense?); reminds her of the no killing rule. Using his power of “look around,” Boone spots Ben heading into the building.

After Medea insists that she can “take his head off from here and not even scorch his shirt,” Boone reminds her AGAIN that they’re just to “test him, bang him up a little, see what he’s made of, but NO KILLING.” Dark Helmet: Everybody got that?

“Well, you’ll have to excuse me if he ‘accidentally’ gets dead in the fight, it’s what I do best,” Medea replies. I think this is what happens when you spare the rod.

Ben crawls on the ceiling (despite wearing his shoes), thinking to himself about how he doesn’t want a fight, he’s just going to get Spider-Man out. Pussy. He dodges out of the way of another laser blast and Boone compliments Medea on not killing him. Medea says that she tried, which is really not a good thing to admit.

Meanwhile, Spider-Man has a head trip in which he fights lots of his classic villains. And somehow Peter Parker is there too and they’re talking and none of this makes any sense and I have a synopsis of the past issues.

Ben decides that he can’t let Medea and Boone run loose, so he takes out Boone, after which he is informed that Boone isn’t the muscle of the group, Medea is. So I guess even nigh-omnipotent, enigmatic beings are politically-correct in the Marvel universe. Medea rips the mouthpiece off of his mask (just like Spider-Man’s was in his hallucination or whatever it was), after which Ben decides that chivalry is dead and knocks her out.

Elsewhere, Traveller decides to study Spider-Man further, which involves “pushing [his] mind to [his] breaking point.” Spider-Man is having none of that and breaks loose of the restraints. Geez, why don’t the Ravencroft people just use bubblewrap, it’s more resilient.

Spider-Man breaks out of his cell, after which Traveller picks him up and chokes him with one hand. Because he’s very, very strong, you see, and that’s what very, very strong people do. Ben announces his arrival by kicking Traveller right below the ass and announces his intention to get Spider-Man out of there. Traveller is all “I don’t THINK SO, *****” and that’s our cliff-hanger. Yawn.

[Aztec]

The worst moment in Comic Book history:

Dark Knight Strikes Again #2
only to be trumped by DKSA #3

Ouch! A Sequel to arguably the greatest comic ever told, and this is the utter garbage that was released? I liked the 1st issue but then it appears that Frank Miller completely lost all touch with rationality and story telling ability (and perhaps his mind as well). About as bad as it gets.

[Zev]

As a long run by both combatants come to a close, the final outcome is still uncertain. On the one hand, there's the President's pet, Barney the terrier. In the other corner, there is the challenger, the unnamed gerbil known only as Frankengerbil.

"While Barney is the pet to bet, keep in mind that Frankengerbil has already tasted the cold, cold embrace of death," said fight analyst Billy Linderberg. "And that which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

"This gerbil was not only the only the soldier to serve with honor in Vietnam, as opposed to those crack-dealing rapist pig Republican soldiers like in Apocalypse Now, but also is a U.S. Senator's pet," liberal filmmaker Michael Moore said. "Besides, Barney never won the last presidential pet fight in the first place."

Presidential nominee John Kerry is expected to be on hand to resuscitate Frankengerbil in the case of a fatality, while George W. Bush plans to campaign.

"C'mon, it's a dog fighting a rat. How can you expect the rat to win? Besides, my dog knows Spanish. I can tell him to get off the couch... in Spanish. Eh? Eh?" asked the president. "Honestly! A rat! What's it going to do, use a handgun which it is Constitutionally allowed to own?"

"Hey, shut it!" liberal filmmaker Michael Moore said.

Many potential watchers are staying home, believing that this is just another contest between a rat and a son of a *****.

[DBM]

Zev, really. :rolleyes:

At least some of your stuff was vaguely comic related. But this last post was unnecessary.

[Zev]

Zev, really. :rolleyes:

At least some of your stuff was vaguely comic related. But this last post was unnecessary.

Would you say it was... gratuitous, even?

Gratuitous Crossovers, Spider-Man 52-68

Just to give you an idea of how few self-contained storylines (intrinsically better then big crossovers because a single writer does them) were put into the Clone Saga, here's a list of one Spider-Man title during the Clone Saga, minus six months in which the title was put in "holding pattern" so as not to compete with Onslaught (this same mandate led to Norman Osborn's return. But that's a tale for another time).

Each of these crossovers runs through two or more of the Spider-titles (Web of Spider-Man, Spectacular Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man, and Spider-Man).

Spider-Man 52 and 53 are part 2 and 4 of The Exile Returns, respectively.

54 and 55 are part 2 and 4 of Web of Life.

56 is part 3 of Smoke and Mirrors.

57 is part 1 of Aftershocks

58 is part 3 of The Mark of Kaine

59 is part 2 of Crossfire.

60 is part 3 of The Trial of Peter Parker.

61 is part 4 of Maximum Clonage.

62 is part 3 of Exiled.

63 is part 2 of The Greatest Responsibility.

64 is… my God, it’s apparently a standalone called The Game of Life! And it concludes within the issue! Good lord!

We’re back to normal with 65, part 3 of Media Blizzard.

66 is part 4 of The Return of Kaine.

67 is part 3 of Web of Carnage.

68 is part 3 of Blood Brothers.

That’s 15 issues that, minus one exception, are ALL PART OF A CROSSOVER! Knights of Columbus!

[Zev]

Gun Control Rocks, Spectacular Spider-Man 71

You tell me if this is the author using characters to express his own viewpoint, both by controlling the debaters (more on that later) and the questions.

The issue starts off with Spider-Man stopping a robbery in progress. Both robbers, who are quite young, are armed and open fire on Spider-Man. Spider-Man webs their trigger fingers up, after which the store owner comes in. Not hearing or ignoring Spider-Man saying that they're unable to fire, he uses his own gun to shoot and kill one of the burglars. The next day, at the Daily Bugle, a discussion between Resident ******** Antagonist of Peter Parker, Lance Bannon (why isn't the conservative J. Jonah Jameson allowed to argue for handguns? IITS), and With-It Black Man (here upgraded to Wise Old Black Man) Robbie Robertson.

LB: An old man shot a burglar who was trying to rob his store! So what?

PP: The burglar was a kid, lance.

LB: The "kid" was armed!

RR: Both the boy and the store owner were armed, Lance--that's the problem. Perhaps, if neither had possessed a handgun, the boy would never have summoned up the courage to commit the crime in the first place (!) and the store owner might have phoned for the police (!!) instead of shooting.

LB: Those are pretty big "ifs," Robbie! The store owner was defending his property! Are you saying that no one should be allowed to own handguns?

Please note that Lance is tossing out what those in the newspaper business would call "softball" questions. These questions are being advanced merely to be dismissed. They're the journalistic equivilent of those plants in infomercials who are always saying "Tell me more about the Fruit Beater 2000, Alex!"

RR: No--I can condone ownership by the police, the military, and pistol clubs where the guns are never allowed to leave the property. But, according to some statistics I've just read (how convenient!), handguns were responsible for over 25,000 fatalities in 1980... over 300,000 violent crimes were perpetrated with handguns in that year alone.

I'd just like to ask how many "violent crimes" alcohol plays a part in, not even counting drunk driving... yet no one ever talks about banning that... And don't even get me started on cigarettes!

LB: All the more reason for people to be able to purchase and own a handgun--to protect themselves!

RR: That's the argument of the pro-handgun lobby, Lance. But a handgun purchased for "rpotection" is more likely to accidentally kill you or a member of your family than it is to kill a burglar

PP: But, Robbie, even I know that most homicides occur among family and friends (and believe me, if anyone knows about friends trying to kill him, it's Peter Parker. Harry Osborn alone...)... whether a handgun is used or not!

RR: Let's not forget the children...

PP: Children, Robbie?

RR: Yes, Pete--handguns are the fifth leading cause of death among children. In 1981, the Surgeon General's panel on the promotion of child health recommended a ban on the sale of handguns to private individuals for that very reason.

Alcohol and cigarettes! What do they have to do to get banned?

LB: A ban on handguns? That would be unconstitutional! Doesn't the Second Amendment give Americans the right to bear arms?

RR: On four occasions the United States Supreme Court (just like to pop in and once again point out how CONVENIENT it is that Robbie has just so happened to memorize all this information) has ruled that what the founding fathers had in mind was not personal self-protection but the existence of an organized, well-regulated militia (I'm not touching it).

PP: But those are court decisions, not the Constitution itself.

RR: Right, Pete.

PP: So you're not advocating total gun control, Robbie--just a ban on the private possession of handguns (how's THAT for a non sequitur).

RR: Violent crimes are less likely to be committed with rifles or shotguns, they're a lot harder to conceal (just take his word for it!). And I have nothing against licensed hunters--so long as they're hunting animals, not people (Kraven: Hello?).

LB: But criminals will always find some way to get handguns!

RR: What about that, Robbie?

Robbie doesn't have an answer and the rest of the story is filled with people having accidents with handguns or being killed with them by criminals. Well, I don't know about you, but this story totally convinced me. We should definitely ban handguns and trust in Spider-Man to protect us.

[Zev]

ELECTION NEWS

CLONES SPLIT VOTE IN FLORIDA

Voters are becoming confused for a whole new reason in Florida: Clones.

During Bush's National Guardsmen days, he had himself cloned so that the clone could do all the work and he could get high. Now, the clone has returned for unknown reasons. Obviously, voters are having a hard time telling the difference between the clone and the original. It could be that "our" Bush has been the clone all along. But if that's so, who is the mysterious "Baine" that's been stalking both men?

VAMPIRES CLAIM DISCRIMINATION

Vampires around the nation have been rising up to demand their right to vote.

"Usually, our votes, belonging as they do to people buried in the cemetaries, have just been discounted as voter fraud," said Morbius, the Living Vampire. "But lately, we've had reports of Nightstalkers, Slayers, even the Daywalker stationed at polling booths. Vampiric voters today face not just their votes being denied, but decapitation, staking, and whatever the verb version of holy wafers is. Not to mention the fact that most of the polls CLOSE at night!"

Trial lawyers have found much in common with the bloodsuckers and are expected to appeal shortly.

UNSTABLE MOLECULE CHADS CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

'They stretch and they stretch but they just won't break!" said one unidentified voter.

SYMBIOTES DEMAND SEPARATE VOTE

Eddie Brock and the Venom symbiote are perhaps on the verge of a trial separation (I'm SO funny) as they argue over who to vote for.

"He's a psychotic, murderous alien from outer space and I'm a democrat. Maybe we should just stay home so our votes don't cancel each other out," Brock said to the press.

PUNISHER TURNED AWAY FROM VOTING BOOTH

Punisher, a vigilante well-known for his conspiracy theories and political activism, was turned away from the "superheroes only" voting booth (which was monitored by Peter Henry Gyrich to ensure that Multiple Man did not attempt multiple votes).

"But, but, but the CIA, they're smuggling drugs in Aghanistan and going to war to sell M-16s and Bush is a drunken idiot who's trying to nuke France and, and..."

"I'm sorry, sir, but you're a convicted felon and thus can't vote," said Gyrich.

"Yeah? Well as soon as Garth Ennis has this problem, I'm gonna come back and Mary-Sue your balls off!"

MICHAEL MOORE'S HEAD EXPLODES

Michael Moore was found dead this morning of an exploded head. John Kerry, who was on the phone with him at the time of the detonation, relayed his last words.

"He was saying 'How could you have lost to Bush? He's all Bushy and Bush-like and Bush-esque and... NGGHHHH!' Then there was this loud popping sound. I thought he was just venting his frusteration on bubblewrap. It really helps, you know. John Edwards was been going through his for a half hour," the former challenger said.

Dr. Martin Trainer, a coroner for the New York Health Department, said that cholesterol could be to blame. "When you have a lifestyle of being a fatty fat mcfatfat lardass, you have to expect health complications. Here, he was probably eating some sort of ice cream, heard the news that Bush won. His brain started heating up and, just like the dog-alien in Alien 3 when it was exposed to both temperature extremes, exploded. In the end, he literally thought too hard. As you can imagine, this is not a common affliction among liberals."

[Zev]

Scarlet Spider Super-Special, Multiple Titles

Okay, lets get this over with. In 1995, all four (!) Spider-Man titles (Web of Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man, Spectacular Spider-Man, and Adjectiveless Spider-Man) as well as Venom had “Super Specials” come out. This overexposure comes as a shock to someone like me who believes that Spidey should, at most, have two titles. Of course, if Marvel wanted more, they could have just had Ben Reilly pack it up and go to Chicago. Then they could get out their jones for a younger, single Spider-Man (it wouldn’t be hard for a magic spell or something to de-age Ben back to a teenager) while leaving Peter and Mary-Jane the **** alone. But hey, that’s just me.

This being Marvel in the nineties, all four combined to form a special crossover event, Planet of the Symbiotes. Written by David Micheline, it’s way too sci-fi for Spider-Man, but that’s forgivable. It also features a sixty-foot-tall Carnage and Venom causing his entire species (the symbiote one, not the humans) to commit suicide. Still, not the worst.

But the flipbook… that’s another story. More on that later.

We start with a story about Peter and Mary-Jane visiting Aunt May’s grave. Peter reminisces about his life before becoming Spider-Man. It was written by THE Stan Lee, penciled by Darick Robertson, and inked by George Pérez. No harm there.

The next story is about some goober known as the Steel Spider trying to raise money for an operation to heal his wheelchair-bound wife/girlfriend/soulmate/whatever by, get this, charging FIVE BUCKS to give people the chance to beat him. I’m assuming they’ll win something if they do, but maybe people just really, really want to hit him.

Steel Spider’s “power” is that he has a lame costume and four tentacles which act like spider’s legs, as opposed to an octopus’ tentacles in the case of Doc Ock. Who was killed off in the Clone Saga to make new dud villain Kaine (or Cain or Kane or whatever) look good. It failed.

After some business with another goon that calls himself the Master of Vengeance (and somehow mistakes Steel Spider for that OTHER spider-themed superhero, you know the one), Steel Spider wins and plans on continuing the whole “get paid to let people try and beat me up” thing. And none of this will have any impact on anything ever again. Congratulations, writer Eric Fein. You made the list.

Now, onto the main event. Scarlet Spider has a sort of limited series as a back-up feature for Planet of the Symbiotes. John Ostrander was brought in, wanting to do a story about whether a clone could have a soul (oooh, existential!). Editor-in-chief Danny Fingeroth, for some reason or another, developed a hard-on for the Lizard and basically demanded that Curt Connors’ scaly alter-ego be in any prospective story pitch. As editor Glenn Greenberg said, “This was one of the few instances where Tom Brevoort and I felt completely disconnected-creatively and emotionally-from a project we were working on. It became a project we had to endure, rather than something that we could really take any pride in having put together. Some time later, this Lizard story was systematically undone in the pages of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, and no one was more pleased by this than Tom B. and myself. “

Onto the show! In the story that we (supposedly) care about, Scarlet Spider sits sans mask above his Aunt May’s grave (she died in one of the only good things to come out of the Clone Saga. Needless to say, Marvel threw the baby out with the bathwater when they retconned everything, including Peter and Mary-Jane’s baby. Asses). Ben does some soul-searching, blah blah blah angst-cakes, then puts the mask on. He then apparently flies out of the graveyard.

The writer for this little foray is Terry Kavanagh. Welcome to the list. The script is credited to, I swear I’m not making this up, “Kavanagh/Lackey.” How’s that for a strip of fried gold? Oh, and the colorist is “Chia Chi Wang.” Is it racist for me to point out that that name is just… yeah, it probably is. Moving on.

After harping on the “I’m a clone!” thing for more thought bubbles then your average Claremont comic, he thinks about his own adventures. “Battled a lot of dragons on that road—from within AND without—and both sides as often as not—and lost as many as I won, all things considered… but I faced every single demon straight in the eye… soon as they caught up to me.”

Oh, Ben Reilly, truly you are a Man of Mystery. Yawn.

Anyway, Ben decides that he’s not going to run anymore, but instead going to “face the future.” Just as long as you don’t fight it. Look how well that turned out for Mulder and Scully.

And “at a nearby pier without a permit, aboard a yacht with no name (riding through the desert on a yacht with no name, felt good to get out of the rain) forces gather.” And those forces will feel pretty foolish when they’re arrested for docking at a pier without a permit.

Inside, we meet Shadowforce Alpha (sic and sic. I think that’s a GI Joe division).

There’s Shell and Shot, “a carrier and a launcher. Twin brothers, trained in the use of heavy weapons by their embattled motherland.” However, then they got caught up in a nasty custody battle with their fatherland, who wanted them to be dentists.

There’s Bombardier, a bald chick who’s “wired to kill and padded to protect.” She’s also “a demo-expert with a perilous passion for her work.” Yes, it’s scary how well she can download a demo off Fireplanet, then play it and delete it. And I continue to feel like I’m reading off the back of the box of a Dolph Lundgren movie.

There’s also Flare, an “America-firster” who is “forever silenced by the same flames that empower him.” And there’s a good message for the kids. Get burned so much that you’re rendered mute and you’ll get super powers. And you’ll be a patriot!

Then there’s Stampede, a “money-firster.” I guess that’s just a stupid way of saying mercenary. Stampede’s a “silver-medal runner with a decidedly dangerous need to succeed.” In other words, she runs fast and has an inferiority complex. Yup, just the person I want on my crack paramilitary team. She’s even more useless then France.

Oh, and Clash, a “hand-to-hand specialist with combat experienced in an unauthorized army.” An unauthorized army? I don’t get it either. Later it turns out she’s Irish (because she has red hair and calls people “boyo”), so I guess they’re referring to the IRA.

She’s second-in-command (and lover to) Cordite, “the man with the plan himself.” Frankly, I wouldn’t follow a person who named himself after a type of explosive, but I guess that’s why I’m not a mercenary commando. Cordite is a big black guy with salt and pepper hair. And in Marvel land, even the villains are politically correct, hence the international, multi-ethnic “Shadowforce” (I suppose they’re all-new, all-different from the old, primarily white team)..

All of Shadowforce Alpha (snicker) wear black bodysuits with these metallic wristbands and sometimes ammobelts over their chests. And we get further text that sounds like it’s from the back of the video box of a movie starring Lorenzo Lamas.

”Real names remain unasked, identities immersed (huh?) in the terminal talents (huh again) of each and every agent (who don’t wear masks, by the way. I guess they better hope that their real names remain unasked, because that’s the only thing “immersing” their identities) of Shadowforce Alpha. Assassins, terrorists, and mercenaries all (pick one and stick to it!). The hottest (?) and the youngest (experience, who needs it?) of the best… in a very bad business. EVERY bad business (???).”

[RabbitSamurai]

I would say one of the worst moments in comic-bookdom would be the death of Superman.

"Wha--?" I can hear you say. Not so much for the story (Which I liked, BTW), but the fact that it turned out to be a cheap publicity stunt to lure fans back to the book. And they made us wait for what--a year?--just to learn none of those four guys were Superman, and then Kal-El himself showed up in Goth-black and powerless. (???) And then they explained this was a "one-time event." Mostly because such a lame-ass sucker punch can't be done twice.

On the other hand, there was that part in Batman where they flamed the religious by having the "altar-boy" (to use Tricky Dick Grayson's term) take over the Bat-Mantle....and then constantly having hallucinations and homicidal urges. Real nice, DC. Way to reach out to your audience and not follow those tired cliches. But by far the biggest cop-out of that arc was Batman (i.e. Bruce Wayne) finally confronting "Azbats" and watches as Jean-Paul rips a picture of his father to shreds before saying, "I didn't want to believe it before...that you had become a brute." Apparently, trying to incinerate someone on a bridge and then moving on to endanger a boat-load (literally) of innocent civvies or trying to maneuver Bats into heavy artillery fire isn't good enough for Wayne. But you rip up a picture, and it's on now, *****!

And then he tries to talk Jean-Paul out of his madness, while saying "Batman is the fiction." That's real smart. Spurn on self-doubt while attempting what he should have realized as a useless plan of action. And then the writers have the temerity to have Bruce act surprised when Azbats tricks him into getting in a free slash. My....God. Nightwing said it best: "Big disappointment if Bruce doesn't hand this nutjob his head." and it was. His reasons may have been valid, but for crying out loud, this guy had been dragging the mantle of the Bat through ****, and we don't get a good smack-down? Even those "fights" earlier were chock-fill of Batman holding back, trying to reason with Azrael. Moron. He should have busted Azbat's kneecaps and tossed him out of the cave like this week's trash.

I realize these are all DC moments, but I couldn't find the equivalent in the DC thread. I'll let the Marvel moments resume.

[Zev]

I would say one of the worst moments in comic-bookdom would be the death of Superman.

"Wha--?" I can hear you say. Not so much for the story (Which I liked, BTW), but the fact that it turned out to be a cheap publicity stunt to lure fans back to the book. And they made us wait for what--a year?--just to learn none of those four guys were Superman, and then Kal-El himself showed up in Goth-black and powerless. (???) And then they explained this was a "one-time event." Mostly because such a lame-ass sucker punch can't be done twice.

On the other hand, there was that part in Batman where they flamed the religious by having the "altar-boy" (to use Tricky Dick Grayson's term) take over the Bat-Mantle....and then constantly having hallucinations and homicidal urges. Real nice, DC. Way to reach out to your audience and not follow those tired cliches. But by far the biggest cop-out of that arc was Batman (i.e. Bruce Wayne) finally confronting "Azbats" and watches as Jean-Paul rips a picture of his father to shreds before saying, "I didn't want to believe it before...that you had become a brute." Apparently, trying to incinerate someone on a bridge and then moving on to endanger a boat-load (literally) of innocent civvies or trying to maneuver Bats into heavy artillery fire isn't good enough for Wayne. But you rip up a picture, and it's on now, *****!

And then he tries to talk Jean-Paul out of his madness, while saying "Batman is the fiction." That's real smart. Spurn on self-doubt while attempting what he should have realized as a useless plan of action. And then the writers have the temerity to have Bruce act surprised when Azbats tricks him into getting in a free slash. My....God. Nightwing said it best: "Big disappointment if Bruce doesn't hand this nutjob his head." and it was. His reasons may have been valid, but for crying out loud, this guy had been dragging the mantle of the Bat through ****, and we don't get a good smack-down? Even those "fights" earlier were chock-fill of Batman holding back, trying to reason with Azrael. Moron. He should have busted Azbat's kneecaps and tossed him out of the cave like this week's trash.

I realize these are all DC moments, but I couldn't find the equivalent in the DC thread. I'll let the Marvel moments resume.

Hey, there's nothing saying "Worst Moments in MARVEL Comic Books." This is just here because it gets more traffic. See "Worst Moments In Comic Book Movies," which has now metamorphized into some weird skit show/general movie criticism. I pointed out a Worst Moment in Matrix Reloaded and they didn't move it to Misc Films. Hmmm... maybe I should work on that. After all, that forum gets more traffic than Misc Comic Films...

And tell me, is DC as intent on breaking up Clark and Lois as Marvel was on doing the same to Peter and Mary-Jane?

[RabbitSamurai]

Hey, there's nothing saying "Worst Moments in MARVEL Comic Books." This is just here because it gets more traffic. See "Worst Moments In Comic Book Movies," which has now metamorphized into some weird skit show/general movie criticism. I pointed out a Worst Moment in Matrix Reloaded and they didn't move it to Misc Films. Hmmm... maybe I should work on that. After all, that forum gets more traffic than Misc Comic Films...

And tell me, is DC as intent on breaking up Clark and Lois as Marvel was on doing the same to Peter and Mary-Jane?

Probably...I don't know. I usually don't read Superman unless it has a Batman guest-star or is written by someone I like (Jeph Loeb), or just plain looks interesting.

Why did they need to break up Peter and MJ? That seems kind of needlessly cruel, especially for the stupid reasons they put forth.

[Zev]

Probably...I don't know. I usually don't read Superman unless it has a Batman guest-star or is written by someone I like (Jeph Loeb), or just plain looks interesting.

Why did they need to break up Peter and MJ? That seems kind of needlessly cruel, especially for the stupid reasons they put forth.

It's like I said. They didn't think the all-important 18-25 audience wanted to read the adventures of Peter Parker, father and husband. What makes it doubly insulting is that basically it's telling the lifelong fans, the ones who grew up with Spider-Man and Captain America and all that, that they don't count, that we're perfectly willing to throw away everything you like about the comics in favor of new fans and if you don't like it, tough.

[Zev]

Scarlet Spider Super-Special Part 2, Multiple Titles

Meanwhile, Ben knocks on the door of Gabrielle Greer, his love interest du jour. That’s right young’uns, Spidey’s a SWINGIN’ BACHELOR AGAIN! Aren’t you excited? Don’t you want to read the adventures of a man dating? PAY US MONEY!

Gabrielle answers the door in earrings, necklace, undershirt, jacket… and panties and bunny slippers. Ladies, are pants really the last thing you put on in the morning before shoes? Ben has shown up to “thank you for the timely rescue my first week here… and apologize for my brusque behavior later that same day.” I think Liberace had manlier dialogue. Geez, just say “Sorry for being a dick.”

Luckily, Ben has arrived just in time to go over the classifieds with her. Under the light of a beer bottle turned candle holder. In Texas, this is considered very classy (Hey, I live here, I can make jokes about it, just like black people can call each other the n-word).

They talk “long into the night… exchanging little more than immediate career goals, at first… but sharing more than they realize with each passing hour. About her artistic hopes and dreams, compared to her inevitable commercial compromises. Around his guarded background in science and learning (?), with a consistent concern for the troubled and the helpless… Around and about the impending perils of poverty.”

I think our little couple is fawwing in wuv. Although Gabby still hasn’t put on a pair of pants. Geez, Ben, she’s sending more signals then a Navy destroyer on maneuvers in the Pacific!

Ben gives up, concluding that he “just plain unemployable.” Well, you can always join the Avengers. They only have, what, two spider-people right now? Gabby tells him about a laboratory assistant position at “the exterior façade of Empire State Hospital is a blank anonymous surface concealing the private life and death struggles of those within.” I swear, that’s what it says.

Your standard guv’mint sp00k, Mr. Armstrong, and a Dr. Purl argue about the condition of Colonel Broga, whose death would somehow jeopardize U.S. interests in his South American nation. I don’t get it either.

Dr. Purl shoots back that “medicine and security are art forms unto themselves” (???) and exposits that Armstrong’s priority is “the safeguarding of an internationally-hunted political refugee leader” (I’m assuming that’s Broga). And I would think an “internationally-hunted political refugee leader” would have a rank above Colonel. Purl continues that “there are no perimeters to secure, or witnesses to silence (dude, you probably shouldn’t say that to a guv’mint sp00k). It’s not as easy as initiating policy or distributing an ‘eyes only’ brief.” And I have no idea whatsoever what he’s talking about.

Dr. Purl then checks in to interview with Ben (what a coinkydink!) for the lab assistant job. And I wonder how often an attending physician also has scientific experiments going. After looking at the phony credentials (!) that Ben cooked up with Gabby, he asks if Ben is afraid of being over-qualified. Ben’s spider-sense goes off.

Meanwhile, Cordite and Clash, disguised as a doctor and a nurse, respectively, ask to get in to give Broga his medication. Armstrong asks for their pass, foiling their brilliant scheme.

Meanwhile, someone blows up the waiting room, injuring two dozen people. Armstrong reassures Broga that “even now, defense perimeters have kicked in…” Which would sound more convincing if the faux-nurse and doc hasn’t walked in (!) along with him! “Not so much as an itsy bitsy spider could get in without our knowing it!”

And that’s our cue (KOMEDY!) for Scarlet Spider, who’s in the vents, to think to himself “I got in here without anybody even knowing it.” Left unexplained is how Ben got away from Dr. Purl, but WHATEVER.

He sees Bombardier and makes a quip about Star Trek that gives me unwelcome flashbacks to Star Trek: The Motion Picture. He jumps in front of her, saying “Looks like I hit the jackpot!”

“Don’t even think about it,” Bombi (hey, c’mon, that’s a GREAT nickname!) says. “I’m holding a detonator with a dead man’s switch. If I let go of the little red button, we all blow sky high!” Dude, a guy jumps in front of you and says that he hit the jackpot and you threaten him with a bomb? No wonder you’re not married.

[Guyverjay]

And tell me, is DC as intent on breaking up Clark and Lois as Marvel was on doing the same to Peter and Mary-Jane?


Actually Yes, Supes almost blew his marriage with a mermaid:up:

[Zev]

Actually Yes, Supes almost blew his marriage with a mermaid:up:

You're kidding me! How would they... you know? I mean, you remember that episode of Futurama where the Planet Express visited the lost city of Atlanta?

[RabbitSamurai]

You're kidding me! How would they... you know? I mean, you remember that episode of Futurama where the Planet Express visited the lost city of Atlanta?

Probably through artificial in"seamen"ation. Ha ha! "LOL."

The sad thing is, I could see that in a Scarlet Spider book. They were that bad.

Coupled with the fact that we had a female replacement to Doc Ock who was romantically attracted to the hero (great job avoiding tired cliches, Marvel), with pink hair, no less.

Ugh. :down:

[The Hero]

Probably through artificial in"seamen"ation. Ha ha! "LOL."

The sad thing is, I could see that in a Scarlet Spider book. They were that bad.

Coupled with the fact that we had a female replacement to Doc Ock who was romantically attracted to the hero (great job avoiding tired cliches, Marvel), with pink hair, no less.

Ugh. :down:
...and recently reappeared in Secret War.Don't worry,Cap did us all a favor and bashed her face in with the Hobgoblin's glider.:up:

[The Hero]

Gun Control Rocks, Spectacular Spider-Man 71

You tell me if this is the author using characters to express his own viewpoint, both by controlling the debaters (more on that later) and the questions.

The issue starts off with Spider-Man stopping a robbery in progress. Both robbers, who are quite young, are armed and open fire on Spider-Man. Spider-Man webs their trigger fingers up, after which the store owner comes in. Not hearing or ignoring Spider-Man saying that they're unable to fire, he uses his own gun to shoot and kill one of the burglars. The next day, at the Daily Bugle, a discussion between Resident ******** Antagonist of Peter Parker, Lance Bannon (why isn't the conservative J. Jonah Jameson allowed to argue for handguns? IITS), and With-It Black Man (here upgraded to Wise Old Black Man) Robbie Robertson.

LB: An old man shot a burglar who was trying to rob his store! So what?

PP: The burglar was a kid, lance.

LB: The "kid" was armed!

RR: Both the boy and the store owner were armed, Lance--that's the problem. Perhaps, if neither had possessed a handgun, the boy would never have summoned up the courage to commit the crime in the first place (!) and the store owner might have phoned for the police (!!) instead of shooting.

LB: Those are pretty big "ifs," Robbie! The store owner was defending his property! Are you saying that no one should be allowed to own handguns?

Please note that Lance is tossing out what those in the newspaper business would call "softball" questions. These questions are being advanced merely to be dismissed. They're the journalistic equivilent of those plants in infomercials who are always saying "Tell me more about the Fruit Beater 2000, Alex!"

RR: No--I can condone ownership by the police, the military, and pistol clubs where the guns are never allowed to leave the property. But, according to some statistics I've just read (how convenient!), handguns were responsible for over 25,000 fatalities in 1980... over 300,000 violent crimes were perpetrated with handguns in that year alone.

I'd just like to ask how many "violent crimes" alcohol plays a part in, not even counting drunk driving... yet no one ever talks about banning that... And don't even get me started on cigarettes!

LB: All the more reason for people to be able to purchase and own a handgun--to protect themselves!

RR: That's the argument of the pro-handgun lobby, Lance. But a handgun purchased for "rpotection" is more likely to accidentally kill you or a member of your family than it is to kill a burglar

PP: But, Robbie, even I know that most homicides occur among family and friends (and believe me, if anyone knows about friends trying to kill him, it's Peter Parker. Harry Osborn alone...)... whether a handgun is used or not!

RR: Let's not forget the children...

PP: Children, Robbie?

RR: Yes, Pete--handguns are the fifth leading cause of death among children. In 1981, the Surgeon General's panel on the promotion of child health recommended a ban on the sale of handguns to private individuals for that very reason.

Alcohol and cigarettes! What do they have to do to get banned?

LB: A ban on handguns? That would be unconstitutional! Doesn't the Second Amendment give Americans the right to bear arms?

RR: On four occasions the United States Supreme Court (just like to pop in and once again point out how CONVENIENT it is that Robbie has just so happened to memorize all this information) has ruled that what the founding fathers had in mind was not personal self-protection but the existence of an organized, well-regulated militia (I'm not touching it).

PP: But those are court decisions, not the Constitution itself.

RR: Right, Pete.

PP: So you're not advocating total gun control, Robbie--just a ban on the private possession of handguns (how's THAT for a non sequitur).

RR: Violent crimes are less likely to be committed with rifles or shotguns, they're a lot harder to conceal (just take his word for it!). And I have nothing against licensed hunters--so long as they're hunting animals, not people (Kraven: Hello?).

LB: But criminals will always find some way to get handguns!

RR: What about that, Robbie?

Robbie doesn't have an answer and the rest of the story is filled with people having accidents with handguns or being killed with them by criminals. Well, I don't know about you, but this story totally convinced me. We should definitely ban handguns and trust in Spider-Man to protect us.
It's not realy the anti-gun message,but that all of a sudden the book stops to a halt so the characters can have on out-of-character debate about gun control.:rolleyes:

[Zev]

It's not realy the anti-gun message,but that all of a sudden the book stops to a halt so the characters can have on out-of-character debate about gun control.:rolleyes:

That too. I think that's just about the most transparent statement of personal politics I've ever read.

[Guyverjay]

You're kidding me! How would they... you know? I mean, you remember that episode of Futurama where the Planet Express visited the lost city of Atlanta?


Nah it was like that move with Tom hanks "SPLASH"

The mermaid gets legs when dry:up:

[RabbitSamurai]

...and recently reappeared in Secret War.Don't worry,Cap did us all a favor and bashed her face in with the Hobgoblin's glider.:up:

SWEET! Now, see....that's what I call a patriot. :D ;)

[The Hero]

SWEET! Now, see....that's what I call a patriot. :D ;)
Yeah,too bad it was off-panel.:(

[RabbitSamurai]

Gun Control Rocks, Spectacular Spider-Man 71

You tell me if this is the author using characters to express his own viewpoint, both by controlling the debaters (more on that later) and the questions.

The issue starts off with Spider-Man stopping a robbery in progress. Both robbers, who are quite young, are armed and open fire on Spider-Man. Spider-Man webs their trigger fingers up, after which the store owner comes in. Not hearing or ignoring Spider-Man saying that they're unable to fire, he uses his own gun to shoot and kill one of the burglars. The next day, at the Daily Bugle, a discussion between Resident ******** Antagonist of Peter Parker, Lance Bannon (why isn't the conservative J. Jonah Jameson allowed to argue for handguns? IITS), and With-It Black Man (here upgraded to Wise Old Black Man) Robbie Robertson.

LB: An old man shot a burglar who was trying to rob his store! So what?

PP: The burglar was a kid, lance.

LB: The "kid" was armed!

RR: Both the boy and the store owner were armed, Lance--that's the problem. Perhaps, if neither had possessed a handgun, the boy would never have summoned up the courage to commit the crime in the first place (!) and the store owner might have phoned for the police (!!) instead of shooting.

LB: Those are pretty big "ifs," Robbie! The store owner was defending his property! Are you saying that no one should be allowed to own handguns?

Please note that Lance is tossing out what those in the newspaper business would call "softball" questions. These questions are being advanced merely to be dismissed. They're the journalistic equivilent of those plants in infomercials who are always saying "Tell me more about the Fruit Beater 2000, Alex!"

RR: No--I can condone ownership by the police, the military, and pistol clubs where the guns are never allowed to leave the property. But, according to some statistics I've just read (how convenient!), handguns were responsible for over 25,000 fatalities in 1980... over 300,000 violent crimes were perpetrated with handguns in that year alone.

I'd just like to ask how many "violent crimes" alcohol plays a part in, not even counting drunk driving... yet no one ever talks about banning that... And don't even get me started on cigarettes!

LB: All the more reason for people to be able to purchase and own a handgun--to protect themselves!

RR: That's the argument of the pro-handgun lobby, Lance. But a handgun purchased for "rpotection" is more likely to accidentally kill you or a member of your family than it is to kill a burglar

PP: But, Robbie, even I know that most homicides occur among family and friends (and believe me, if anyone knows about friends trying to kill him, it's Peter Parker. Harry Osborn alone...)... whether a handgun is used or not!

RR: Let's not forget the children...

PP: Children, Robbie?

RR: Yes, Pete--handguns are the fifth leading cause of death among children. In 1981, the Surgeon General's panel on the promotion of child health recommended a ban on the sale of handguns to private individuals for that very reason.

Alcohol and cigarettes! What do they have to do to get banned?

LB: A ban on handguns? That would be unconstitutional! Doesn't the Second Amendment give Americans the right to bear arms?

RR: On four occasions the United States Supreme Court (just like to pop in and once again point out how CONVENIENT it is that Robbie has just so happened to memorize all this information) has ruled that what the founding fathers had in mind was not personal self-protection but the existence of an organized, well-regulated militia (I'm not touching it).

PP: But those are court decisions, not the Constitution itself.

RR: Right, Pete.

PP: So you're not advocating total gun control, Robbie--just a ban on the private possession of handguns (how's THAT for a non sequitur).

RR: Violent crimes are less likely to be committed with rifles or shotguns, they're a lot harder to conceal (just take his word for it!). And I have nothing against licensed hunters--so long as they're hunting animals, not people (Kraven: Hello?).

LB: But criminals will always find some way to get handguns!

RR: What about that, Robbie?

Robbie doesn't have an answer and the rest of the story is filled with people having accidents with handguns or being killed with them by criminals. Well, I don't know about you, but this story totally convinced me. We should definitely ban handguns and trust in Spider-Man to protect us.

How very convenient that Robbie doesn't have to apply his view to the fact that criminals will still get handguns no matter what the law says. :rolleyes:

Off-panel? :( Ah, well.

"Yeah, that's right....I *****-slapped that Ock imposter with Hobby's glider. Right to the face!"

:D

[RabbitSamurai]

The worst moment in Comic Book history:

Dark Knight Strikes Again #2
only to be trumped by DKSA #3

Ouch! A Sequel to arguably the greatest comic ever told, and this is the utter garbage that was released? I liked the 1st issue but then it appears that Frank Miller completely lost all touch with rationality and story telling ability (and perhaps his mind as well). About as bad as it gets.

Personally, I've never liked DKR all that much. But at least we can agree that Strikes Again was total crap.

Pundits labeled DKR as "Batman Gets Old." If that's the case, then DKSA is "Batman gets senile."

Gone are the authentic worries over heart attacks, wheezing lungs, and advancing old age. Why? Because Batman is apparently Jesus now (Actually, Supes fills this role literally at the end where they make a First Church of the Last Son of Krypton...apparently Miller's dig against religion).

While watching Batman beat up Supes was fun--although slightly redundant--it's followed by one of the most cliched scenes in all of comic books--Superman sitting where the Fortress of Solitude was (?), moaning about how useless he is. Wonder Woman attempts to cheer him up, and after that doesn't work, she gives him a good punch. Superman, giving into his masochism that mosy square-jawed men seem to have (Army of Darkness), makes love to Wonder Woman, causing earth-wide ecological disasters. So much for "Mother Earth."

Then, of course, we learn that the President of the USA is a hologram (no digs at Conservatism there, no sir)--and that one person actually says, "Who cares if he doesn't exist? He's a great American!" And Miller continues to wow me with childish rants.

Interspersed with all this is an apparently re-born Joker who decides to go and gut some heroes--albeit the lesser-known ones who are therefore expendable, but we knew that was coming. We later learn this is Dick Grayson, who Bruce fired for "not being able to cut the mustard." I assume this is relating to incompetence...although, Miller very decidedly decides to ignore DC history, choosing to deny the fact that Nightwing is probably the best ex-sidekick a man could ask for. If a litle gay-sounding at times) Then he maes him "evil" by saying "I've always hated your damn bats!" :confused: Yeah, that's why he stuck around so long--he hated the atmosphere.

Then we get the obligatory self-destruct sequence with the last-minute save....and Miller apparently forgetting that Batman had already destroyed his relics in DKR, while finishing up this story by saying, "It was sentimental...back when I was old." So apparently Batman is dead now. That, or Miller's giving the finger to everyone who came before him.

And, of course, we get good doses of liberalism interspersed here and there, lending itself to completely non-sensical story-telling. (All of a sudden, Green Arrow and the Question are debating over a news broadcast. Bwah...?) And the ever-"artistic" representations of all these characters, in which Miller literally scribbles somecrap and then hands it over to Lynn Varley to decipher (and I must admit, she does a fantastic job, although I liked her coloring in DKR better).

All that and he can't keep track of his characters. Wonder Woman, Saturn Girl, and the Atom disappear from the story after a while (although Atom hangs around longer than most, getting "swallowed" by a Kryptonian to be safe from the eat rays--but we never lear if he's OK), because all this is evidently too much work for Miller, god-like scribe that he is. :rolleyes:

I could go on....but I think I've made my point.

[Zev]

Scarlet Spider Super-Special Part 3, Multiple Titles

Meanwhile, Cordite strips off his doctor’s coat to reveal the whole bodysuit thing. “As you may have guessed, we aren’t no doctors!” he says and I DEFINITELY wouldn’t follow a leader who doesn’t know to avoid double negatives.

A suddenly gray-suited guv’mint sp00k injects Broga’s IV with something rather then, I don’t know, SHOOTING them.

“Clash! Take these guys out nice and quiet, like!” says the man whose master plan apparently involved detonating a large explosive in a hospital and is currently shooting a guv’min sp00k with double pistols. Meanwhile, Clash punches a agent out and asks where the leader is, “the hardcase who wouldn’t let us in.” And you’d think the leader of an operation would have better things to do then guard duty.

“Right over here, lady…” Armstrong answers as he runs and guns. “And I only think it’s fair (shouldn’t that be “think it’s only fair”?) to warn you that I care even less about killing than you do!” Which isn’t really a good attitude for a guv’mint sp00k to have. After all, police officers have to fill out forms every time they discharge their firearms. Imagine what a guv’mint sp00k would have to go through.

Meanwhile, Scarlet Spider hits Bombi with webbing. He tells her that “my trusty webbing will keep that little red button nice and depressed, much like you’re probably feeling right now!” And there’s another man you’ve driven away with your aggressive manners, Bombi. You’re going to die an old maid.

“So you dropped the suit…” Cordite says as Armstrong shoots the guy that (presumably) drugged Broga. “So what?? You still have me to contend with!”

“I got nothing but time, punk… and bullets!!” And I’m glad that our nation’s intelligence agents have time to think up “witty” dialogue while in heated gunfights.

Flare and Stampede bust in through a window (if they can do that, then why did they bother with the whole bomb and impersonating doctors and drugging Broga thing?). Stampede orders Flare to “waste that geek before he hurts somebody!” to which said geek Armstrong makes a dumb quip about visiting hours being over.

Flare sets Armstrong on fire, to which he replies with “You’ll have to do better than that!” Not much better, I think.

“My, how macho!” Stampede observes as she does one of those kung-fu kicks on Armstrong. “Unfortunately for you, we can do better… lots better!” Dude, way to ride down Flare. I mean, he SET THE GUY ON FIRE? What more do you want? *****.

Armstrong rather unnecessarily thinks to himself about the momentum knocking him backwards. “I swore an oath… to give my life protecting this great country… and even though you punks might’ve won this round, remember this.” And with that, he shoots the floor for some reason and runs out of ammo.

“Lesson taken, stooge… always count your shots!!” Cordite quips as he blasts Armstrong out the window with two automatic weapons (or at least so I’d assume from that “ratta tatta tatta” sound effect). Needless to say, Armstrong lives despite being set on fire, shot repeatedly, and dropped from a great height. Man, they must really toughen people up in the Secret Service or CIA or whatever.

Clash observes to Cordite that he’s bleeding, to which the man replies “It happens.” Yes, but unless you’re a woman and it’s that time of month, it usually demands medical attention. And if you think this is a lame take-off on tough guy Jesse Ventura in Predator, you’re absolutely right. He announces his intention to kidnap Broga, using military words like “exfiltrate” and “ASAP.”

Scarlet Spider busts in and says that the fact that Shadowforce Alpha (giggle) have endangered innocent lives has ticked him off. Of course, I’d say setting off an explosion that injured twenty people and blowing away a few guv’mint sp00ks is a little more then “endangerment,” but then I’m not a clone. Or am I?

By the way, if you’re wondering why Shadowforce Alpha (haha) wants to kidnap Borga, get in line. We’ll never find out. After Stampede says that she “just loves passionate men,” Scarlet Spider replies with a drawn-out speech about how he battles “creeps” because he has to. Geez, get over yourself, dipstick.

Shadowforce Alpha (heh) then runs. Clash makes a note about, if it weren’t for a “prior appointment,” they’d stay and kick his… of course, she notices that Cordite is “really” bleeding before she can say ass. And I thank God we have Marvel PG now.

Cordite says to go to plan B, which consists of Shell and Shot blowing up the room from a neighboring building. One of them bets that if there’s anything left of “that Spider-Jerk” he’ll eat his steel mesh hat. This despite the fact that he doesn’t seem to be wearing a hat.

“We’re the back-up strikers for a reason, Shell,” guy who’s apparently Shot exposits. “’Cause when everybody else fumbles the ball, we get to breeze in and make things right.”

“Yeah… right for us!!” his partner agrees and I think that line would be very, very funny if I were stoned.

“Ha ha ha!” Shot says, who apparently is high. “Yeah… and our bank accounts!”

Meanwhile, Armstrong, who’s described as “battered and blistered’ (yeah, you’d think!) is lying on a table with several medical type stuff attached to him. He’s also wearing only his black briefs, which expose the quote unquote burns. It looks like someone spilled some paint on him or he ate some gravy too enthusiastically.

Having no other recourse, Dr. Purl decides to use an experimental and untested (not to mention clichéd) procedure to try and save “young Armstrong.” And for some reason, WAY DOWN IN THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES, the Lizard (well, the Lizard 2) notices the machines which save the “battered security agent.” And I have no idea how THAT works.

[Zev]

And since the Clone Saga's only tangible political connection is that it was released during Clinton's years (so, wait, he goes into Somalia but he lets Marvel keep doing that to Spider-Man?), a small tidbit.

I'm glad Eminem or however you spell his name released a staunch anti-Bush music video. Now I know FOR SURE that he isn't on my side. It's like learning you don't have herpes or something. I know that one of the liberals' strongest points has always been that they have Hollywood on their side, but how far does it go. I mean, do they have celebrities who hate Bush, but aren't allowed to speak? Does, say, Carrot Top or Pauly Shore or David Arquette want to annouce how they'll leave the country if Bush wins, but the democrats says "No, no one can know that you're one of us!"

Then again, they let Ben Affleck pal around with Kerry. Man. Has that guy EVER picked a project that succeeded? Not counting those big "View Askew" circle jerk cult things he and a quarter of L.A. seem to be involved in.

But hey, what do I know? If I were running for President, my campaign strategy would consist of having Silver S draw Boy Genius comic strips that supported me. I bet you twenty bucks I would still earn more electoral votes then Nader.

[Zev]

Scarlet Spider Super Special 4: The Voyage Home, Multiple Titles

The next issue basically repeats this stuff about Dr. Purl, Armstrong, and the Lizard before getting back to Shell and Shot. One of the identical twits asks himself “What is that oh-so-American expression (he’s probably not thinking of “STFU.” But I am) – ‘If you can’t beat them’.”

“Bomb them.”

But somehow they have magically transported over to the hospital room, where Scarlet Spider has fortified himself and the unconscious Broga in the ceiling, “protected behind the fastest web on the West Side!” So I guess Scarlet’s going to get into a rap battle with Run DMC later.

They give the standard “Spider-Man!”

“Witty quip!” Only without the witty. “According to the news, maybe. ‘Course, I like to think I’m more than just a headline. Something with a lot more kick!”

Now, guess if Scarlet’s saying this as he kicks someone. C’mon, guess. AH HA! You’re wrong! He IS kicking someone as he says this! Ha, you’re a… oh, you guessed that? Darn.

We get some caption box exposition that “Rudev” Broga is the “ailing ruler of a politically unstable island off the coast of South America.” So now apparently he’s a ruler and still only a colonel?

One of the losers threatens to blast the people in the next room, but Scarlet paralyses his arm with a “spider stinger” (boy, THOSE sure have lasted a long time in the Spider-titles, haven’t they?). Scarlet also calls paralysis boy “Russian,” which I think is the weakest insult he’s ever come up with.

Meanwhile, “Baby Bro” is running off with Broga. Scarlet chases after him, but runs into a nurse (he says a Keanu-esque “Whoa!” for some reason). She tells him about the “full-blown hostage crisis two floors down, hero… in operating theater eight.”

Clash is forcing some doctors to operate on Cordite and an exposition box reveals she’s the “woman who loves him.” Do a lot of paramilitary mercenary forces have “office relationships,” especially between the two highest-ranking officers? Talk about unprofessional!

Flare and Stampede are apparently advocates of the “ditch Cordite” plan and an exposition box tells us they were partners in crime before hooking up with Shadowforce. The remaining Russian guy (lets just call him “S,” I’m right either way) comes in with Broga. Good job on stopping him, Scarlet, so as to prevent him and Shadowforce from regrouping.

Outside, a random Daily Bugle reporter tells “Cooper,” a photographer, to take pictures. That’s some good work, Cooper. Cooper tells “Mr. Ellis” to tell him where to point, like, can’t you figure that out for yourself? And Ellis, stop REPORTING this junk and start writing it! You did the Authority, man!

The doctors operating Cordite talk to each other, one of them saying they’re “doctors—not surgeons!” And certainly not bricklayers! But still, knowing the difference between doctors and surgeons brings this up a notch in my eyes. Congratulations, Scarlet Spider. That puts you at notch one.

Scarlet is in the airvent overhead, while Dr. Purl activates the “eerie emerald radiation,” while the NYPD has arrived.

A doctor accidentally cuts Cordite with a scalpel, which apparently causes him pain! So they’re operating without painkillers? Clash has a “Dodge this” moment and is about to blast the offending doctor when the NYPD cuts the power (“How can they cut the power, man, they’re animals!”) and use night-vision specs to move in. For some reason, this stops Clash from pulling the trigger, even though she has the doctor at less then point blank range.

Dr. Purl also reacts, noting that the “particle-bombardment” can’t be interrupted at this “delicate stage.” Man, of all the luck, right during the delicate stage! What are the odds, eh?

Armstrong, now wearing white briefs instead of black, has a massive seizure and flatlines as Scarlet snatches the gun from Clash with webbing. The NYPD leader orders his squad to hold it because “back-up generators are kicking in already!” Good planning, NYPD.

Meanwhile, Dr. Purl, knowing that “adrenaline won’t do the trick alone,” falls back on the “wrap your hands together and club person in the chest” technique to jump-start his heart.

And, “comically,” this occurs just as Scarlet Spider slugs “Shell” in the face. Don’t know how he knew his name or even how to tell him apart from his twin, but I guess he’s a wiser man then I.

The lights come back on and the NYPD guy orders his team to “back off again” as the power’s “back to stay.” Geez, the UN is more effectual then these guys!

“DIE, SPIDER!” Stampede cries as she does that flying kung-fu kick for the third frickin’ time (and the second was Scarlet Spider doing it). Just as this happens, Flare incinerates either Scarlet or the area right behind Scarlet.

Scarlet tells Stampede to “get over [herself]!” as he throws her through a window to the NYPD. They arrest her and “ready the gas grenades.”

Flare jumps through some glass with Broga over his shoulder as Clash thinks that “[he’s] got Broga back.” Back? When did he LEAVE? Scarlet grabs a doctor with webbing and jumps up to the top of the wall, where it goes from metal to glass (!?). He lowers her through the hole to the NYPD, who are planning to “storm in two minutes.” Scarlet makes a lame “tough guy” quip about taking out the trash and blows Flare and Clash’s shots with a web-shield, then uses impact-webbing to wrap up Flare.

He then fires a stinger at Clash, who uses a doctor to block it. They have a little exchange confirming that the doctor is going to be fine, while Scarlet apparently brings Clash to climax by grabbing her wrist, making a “boo!” pose, and staring at her chest. Cordite, from the operating table, pulls out a gun and points it at Scarlet.

He points it at Broga, which causes Scarlet to give up. Clash is about to do Scarlet execution-style (pussy) when Armstrong, pumped up to Hulk size, busts in like the Kool-Aid Man. “Rules are changing, Clash,” he says, and I have NO idea where he learned her name while unconscious. “Armstrong’s back!” Yes, we noticed. “And it’s a whole new ballgame!”

He knocks Clash’s aim off by shoulder blocking her, as Scarlet compliments his “strong style, a certain bear-like grace—perfect timing.” So apparently Ben Reilly got all of Peter’s “musical theater” genes when he was cloned. Now if only he had gotten the “insect” genes, we could’ve been spared the whole stupid Queen story arc.

Scarlet kicks the gun out of Cordite’s hand, then, instead of following through and finishing them off, decides to get the hostages out, leaving the untested Armstrong to tangle with the trained terrorists. Good one, web-slinger.

Clash makes a dash for an open… something (it could be a broken window, but there aren’t any glass fragments on the sides). Scarlet uses impact webbing to seal it in front of her, which is much better then just webbing HER up. She confronts Armstrong and Scarlet, then pulls out “mini-bombs” (Scarlet calls them grenades and I can’t tell the difference).

Scarlet snags the explosives with webbing, after which Armstrong grabs them and runs out the window. Which is much better then just THROWING them out. Armstrong falls twelve stories, either before or after the explosion. But Armstrong is fine, aside from some rending of his clothes (as expected, this falls into the Captain Kirkian “expose my biceps but not my one-eyed monster or ass” category).

The press swarms Armstrong, who is now apparently more a “normal guy” then a stone-cold guv’mint sp00k. He says he’s Armstrong, just a…

Someone interrupts, “A hero? A champion? A winner takes all (?)… MR. STRONGARM!”

And I don’t know how you get THAT from Armstrong, a not uncommon name, but since there are certain idiots who say that Spider-Man is “Man-Spider,” it’s not unheard of.

“No, no… the name’s Armstrong and I’m only—“

“Fast, strong, and invulnerable,” Scarlet thinks to himself. “So far (?). The rest of your story should prove interesting indeed, stranger…” which is unbelievably not followed by a plug for the Mr. Strongarm limited series. So I guess now we have ANOTHER superhumanly strong character in the Marvel universe. Because it’s not like there haven’t been enough of those.

And “somewhere along the Appalachian trail,” Lizard 2.0 has slaughtered some campers.

[Zev]

SPIDER-MAN UNITES DIVIDED COUNTRY

Today, a nation still divided nearly in half came together under a mutual love and respect for Spider-Man.

"Sometimes it gets you down, how Bush won despite being a lying idiot," said democrat John Ackes. "But then I remember, hey, Spider-Man's still here. The real one, not some silly clone. He's married to Mary-Jane and everything. So I guess what I'm saying is, everything's gonna be okay."

"Yeah. Even though it grates how they make fun of the president and seem to have developed a bitter hate for any voters who disagree with them, we still have Spider-Man and control of the House, Senate, and Presidency," Tom Calvin, republican said. "Wait a minute, what the **** is this? Which one of you liberal losers gave Spider-Man organic webbing?"

"Organic webbing?! Who cares about that! You ****ing conservatives raped Gwen Stacy's memory! I'll ****ing kill you!" replied Ackes.

"Not if I kill you first, mother****er!"

But seriously, at least we still have the Aven... SONS OF *****ES!!!

Scarlet Spider Super Special 5, Multiple Titles

The next issue, on the shore of a “dark and deserted beach in central Jersey,” Lizard emerges from the sand for some reason. Was he traveling underground, Graboid style? If so, what’s the point of the “sails” through which he can supposedly fly? Oh, what’s the point? Anyway, he emerges all icky with green slime, because this is the nineties. Everything was all about bodily fluids in the nineties. Even politics! Oooh, high five!

Meanwhile, Ben reads the Daily Bugle and sees that it, unsurprisingly, credits “Strongarm” exclusively with the rescue. Ben is thankful that he’s able to keep a low profile. He runs into Gabby, who happens to be carrying groceries, as in every other “meet cute” in history. To their credit, baguettes are not sticking out of the top of her grocery bags, but oddly enough, she’s holding two paper bags and one plastic one.

Gabby asks Ben if he’s “cruising the classifieds again,” although Ben is rather obviously holding the newspaper folded so he can only see the headlines that are “above the fold.” So unless Gabby thinks classified ads are front-page news…

Ben tells her about his new position with Dr. Purl, then asks about her job-hunt, to which she responds that it’s “more like a vision quest at this point…” Huh?

Oh, and through the next few frames, we have a rather impressive continuity error. We start off with Gabby holding two paper bags and one plastic bag. Next frame, she hangs a paper bag to Ben. Then they’re walking, Ben holding one paper bag and Gabby holding a plastic bag, the second paper bag apparently having disappeared. Then in the next frame they’re each holding a paper bag. What the hell?

Gabby, wanting to “bask in [Ben’s] success” offers to bake him a celebration supper. No comment. Ben refuses, pointing out that she was the one who found the opening at the hospital for him. He offers to buy her a “thank-you dinner” at a diner. Gabby shoots back that he hasn’t collected a paycheck yet, so she’ll be the one to make dinner. Man, New York is a nicer city then I thought!

When Ben asks how he can repay her, she replies not to call her Gabby. No can do, Gabby. If you don’t like it, maybe you and Bombi can get together and whine about it in Supporting Character Purgatory™.

They get their mail, which unsurprisingly consists of bills and credit card applications. Ben calls her “pal o’ mine” and didn’t that kind of dialogue die out with Stan Lee? Ben sees one pink letter and assumes a surprised look not unlike someone learning that Rogue happened to be a transvestite. “…I got a little something extra in this week’s bag. An offer you really can’t refuse…!” Oh, I’m all a-tingle with suspense.

Faux-Lizard has climbed onto the “Broadwalk of Seaside Heights,” where it’s indiscriminately slaughtering the masses. Because you can’t be a villain in the nineties without being needlessly homicidal, am I right? The SWAT team has apparently assembled and lets loose with a barrage that merely bounces off its scales. Ummm, shouldn’t they call the Avengers or Fantastic Four for giant humanoid lizard monsters? I mean, that’s a little obvious, right?

The SWAT team is quickly dispatched, after which… well, I’ll let THEM tell it. “The Lizard leaps far and high into the late evening sky. And (sic) newly grown sails of skin catch soft currents of cool air—carrying hardened but hollow bones (isn’t that how Morbius flies?) faster and farther than ever before slicing into the waiting waters of the night-black Atlantic.”

Now, to me, “the Lizard” conjures up images of a beastie in a tattered lab coat, not a naked monster with wings. But that’s just me.

At its destination (New York City, duh), at electrical fire has started at a “thirteenth-story (sic) utility-center.” But since ladders only reach the tenth floor and there are at least six “early-workers” above… Scarlet Spider busts out of the thirteenth floor (don’t they skip those while building a building?) with two maintenance men in hand. After noting that “the enemy’s (?) HOT (oh) on our tails!” he gets smacked down by a falling beam (OUTSIDE the building?) but still manages to stick to the wall and drop the maintenance workers down on weblines. He makes a rather perfunctory “out of the frying pan and right back into the fire!” comment and leaps back in to play hero.

He finds a woman and an old guy, then throws them out the window (!). But don’t worry, he fires a barrage of impact webbing that bridges the gay between building to catch them. So, let me get this straight. The impact webbing not only passed the falling workers, but then manages to form a complete web (which looks to be at least 12 by 12 foot) all before the workers can hit it? That’s some good shootin’!

Quickly, three more are thrown down to a similar rescue from a fifteenth floor ledge and a woman from the sixteenth is thrown down in “bungee cord” fashion, which apparently requires her to be cocooned from neck to toe. Then, on top of the burning building, Scarlet TAKES OFF HIS MASK. Whoa, better hope no one has a telescopic lens.

Skip ahead to that evening, where Ben has taken Gabby to a high-society party (guess that must’ve been the offer they couldn’t refuse) on a motorcycle (but thoughtfully provided helmets for both of them. He apologizes, calling her “Greer.” Generally, do you call people who you’re attempting to initiate a romantic relationship with by their surname? I would think not…

Gabby rejects his apology, saying that “I’m just savoring the feel of the warm wind on my bare skin for a moment. Relishing that rush of speed—and danger and control for as long as I can…” Ummm, Gabby, do you need a few minutes to “freshen up”?

“I had no idea the doc was so gracious to his staff when I signed on…” Ben says. So he does one day of a work and he’s a prominent enough member of the team to be invited to a hoi polloi party? Guess so. “Or that you liked motorcycles.”

“Neither did I,” Gabby replies. “Until you invited me.”

And the dirty-minded in the audience wonder about Gabby being willing to “experiment” with “riding Ben’s hog.”

Ben once again calls her Greer and offers to introduce her to “my boss—our host—Dr. Noah Purl.” Just so we all get why Ben was invited.

I should note that Gabby is wearing a red dress with the leg area cut rather high and a diamond of exposed flesh over her belly (!).

Gabby spots Armstrong/Strongarm. Ben describes him as “the media’s pet,” like, bitter much? He FURTHER exposits that “tonight’s reception is actually in honor of Dr. Purl’s success with him during the…” he’s interrupted by “Greer” walking towards the sheer beefy manliness of Armstrong. Observing for some reason that “the fun has just begun,” he’s further interrupted by “Toni Moore--!” introducing in a “Face it Tiger” glamour shot saying “You got that right, sugar!” She’s wearing a short blue dress, elbow-length gloves, and some of that transparent lace stuff over all the otherwise exposed skin between her neck and her gloves and dress. And I wonder if there are any “just sort of pretty” women in the Marvel universe.

Rick “Red” Barron busts in to give Toni her drink and has a sheer “Igor” facial expression, one eye all squinty, the other bugging out. As the womanizing Red walks away with Toni, Ben spots Martha Connors, now a rather Jennifer Garner-like knockout. And I wonder how many women Ben is going to run through before settling on one to mingle with.

[Guyverjay]

Is anyone else besides me not reading Zevs posts?:confused:

[newnoiseimage]

Is anyone else besides me not reading Zevs posts?:confused:


im with you.

dude has serious issues.

[Zev]

Is anyone else besides me not reading Zevs posts?:confused:

Guyverjay, all I can say is that you don't have this in your thread.

http://img3.imgspot.com/u/04/312/12/BullpenBits53.jpg

Noise, I'll get to you later.