Are any of you pissed at JMS?

[Chris Wallace]

One could argue that he's tramped all over Gwen's memory.

[Spidergurl4302]

right now he has but we still got to wait until the end of the arc before we make any conclusions

[Joker]

No not really.I never cared for Gwen's character anyway.She was always very bland IMO.

Anyway we'll see how this ends before I make judgement.

[The Joker]

yeah f**k Gwen...in normans case, literally :)

[Demogoblin]

Doesnt bother me at all. I like this arc.

[The Joker]

I don't care how it ends, I'm pissed.

what if it ends that Norman gave Gwen something to control her mind, and make her tell all those things to MJ cause he thought she would tell Peter, and none of it is true, the kids are just kids he abducted and genetically altered to age faster, and he lied to them, and they have nothing to do with Gwen at all, it was all just a ploy to torture Peter?

[Chris Wallace]

yeah f**k Gwen...in normans case, literally :)Okay-that was mean. True, but mean.

[Chris Wallace]

what if it ends that Norman gave Gwen something to control her mind, and make her tell all those things to MJ cause he thought she would tell Peter, and none of it is true, the kids are just kids he abducted and genetically altered to age faster, and he lied to them, and they have nothing to do with Gwen at all, it was all just a ploy to torture Peter?Actually, that would piss me off. That's something I would expect from Mackie.

[tt]

I'm not pissed at all, Sins Past is a fantastic story. JMS gets thumbs up from me. I'm liking this controversy. :)

[Spidergurl4302]

That would actually piss me off MORE because it just proves the whole arc was just a cash in. Right now it at least adds depth to Gwen, even if it's unnecessary and wrong. It's still legitamite albeit bad storytelling. Your way would just be a complete insult to all Spidey readers.it would be just a 'cash out' Joker's way but it would still give gwen 'depth' because she still would have stood up to Norman

[Doomed_hero]

Only way I would not be is if they were not Norman's kids, but Harry's and Gwens, and Norman just genetically altered them. But there noway thats happening. This just goes against every ones character.

[jaydawg]

I'm a fan. I like this story and I cant wait to see how he pulls it off. Just one thing bothers me. Its fact that Peter had sex with Black Cat. Now its fact he never slept with Gwen. So his first was Black Cat? What bull****. He and Gwen were in love and I thought it was hinted in Spider-man:Blue that they did sleep together. BC shouldnt be his first...

[Demogoblin]

I thought MJ was Peter's first, as of ASM #149.

[Spidergurl4302]

I thought MJ was Peter's first, as of ASM #149.ya since peter said that him and gwen never had sex i would say that MJ was his first not Black Cat it could have even been Betty for all we know, it probably wasn't because she was the "first girlfriend" but you never know.....

[The Victor]

I can't believe JMS wrote Sins Past instead of something awesome, like "Maximumer Carnage".

[Cyclops]

Now, what is, dare I ask, Gwen's memory? As far as I know, all that anybody really remembers about Gwen was that she died at the hands of the Green Goblin. That is the most memorable thing about her. Her personality? Nah. Never really had much of one. That's the reason that they (Marvel creative team at the time) killed her in the first place.

I ask you, what memory of Gwen is so precious except that she got killed is there to piss all over?

[Doomed_hero]

I am not so pissed that they destoryed her memory,cause as you said she was chosen to die cause the character had no...well character. I just don't like sleeping with Norman, it just doesn't really fit to me, Harry might have made more sense since he was a friend, but Norman seems really out of the blue and to soap opera to me. I mean if she did sleep with Harry or someone else, it would still be soap opera, but I think it would be more beliveable and a better story can spawn from it, I mean with it being Harry and Norman trying to have control of them. Peter would ber trying to save the children from the person who destoryed there parents. I think that would be a intresting story. But I will wait and see how it plays out from here.

[metr0man]

I'd like to see someone else write the Babylon 5 TV movie where it's revealed that Delenn had sex with President Clark while Sheriden was away at Z'ha'dum, and became pregnant with his kids, and gave birth and hid them away somewhere, then be in the room when JMS sees this TV movie for the first time.
It would be realistic. I mean, Delenn isn't a saint or anything, it would be "realistic" and people make mistakes and such, right?

[Dragon]

Now, what is, dare I ask, Gwen's memory? As far as I know, all that anybody really remembers about Gwen was that she died at the hands of the Green Goblin. That is the most memorable thing about her. Her personality? Nah. Never really had much of one. That's the reason that they (Marvel creative team at the time) killed her in the first place.

I ask you, what memory of Gwen is so precious except that she got killed is there to piss all over?

Go back and read the frickin' comics!

But in a nutshell, Gwen was pretty much what alot of guys would look for in a girlfriend/wife. Loving, smart, beautiful, fun, tough and loyal. What she wasn't was flighty, frivolous, and bubble-headed. Allowing a one-night stand to turn into parenthood and expecting Peter to carry the burden of her "mistake". Although granted the story isn't yet complete.

I mean- ask yourself why people even cared that she died?

As for her personality or lack thereof, that's in the eyes of the beholder. What the real problem was, was that Gerrry Conway at that point didn't know what to do with the character and didn't know how to take the relationship to the next level, so they went for the shock value.

But honestly, I think Gwen had ALOT more potential than MJ. (And this is not an invitation to debate which character is better). IMO, MJ is limited in the Spidey stories to being for the most part on the sidelines. We can at best see her doing her modeling or acting, and occasionally being involved with Peter's adventures. Otherwise she's just the loving, sexy wife. But for the most part, she's window dressing. Gwen however, could have had a direct part in Spidey's stories. She was a science major, and I could easily see her becoming either a forensic pathologist or even a cop like her dad. She could have actually been a part of the action and not have looked awkward. There was the powerful dynamic of her believing Spidey had a part in her father's death, the resolution of which could have led to a great story. The same with her learning Peter's secret. But TPTB didn't have the vision to take advantage of that potential. This however doesn't take away from the character. But what's going on in Sins Past does.

[six11]

1 good thing came out of this story arc. I signed up for these boards http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

but.. really... i just read ASM #512.. and it is just... wow... terrible. I don't know WHAT Stratz is thinking... but its terrible. Any of you commenting about how gwen was never a good character, how she's just known for being DEAD.. damn, go read a few classic Spidey books. Gwen's relationship with Peter & then her death are CRUCIAL EVENTS of the Spider-man story. JMS is making a big mistake in my opinion. he's now destroyed.. Gwen as the character we knew, Norman Osbourn/Green Goblin, and the whole Gwen's death thing...

Is there any way for him to dig himself out of this nightmare of a storyline? Here's what i noticed about JMS on Spidey... his work with the Ezekiel stories were GREAT, and all that mystical spider thing, 9/11, etc etc., BUT he's written plenty of ZZZzzzzzz books as well...

i started reading 509 and said OKAY its starting off fine, then somewhere down the line in 510/511 i was like "WHY does that girl look like gwen??" i still don't have a good answer to it... its pathetic the way they disigned the character.. why does she look like gwen... down to the hair thingy? LOL. i hardly doubt they expected us to believe gwen is alive that would be EVEN WORSE that the situation we have now. I guess its a good "shock value cover" for... 12 yr olds... but wait, 12 yr olds prob don't know or give a *bleep* who gwen was. was that cover supposed to sell copies?? lol!

the idea of gwen + norman? i dunno, jms is just trying 2 get tricky, by tying new storylines in to old classic storylines. nice touch, and it rationally works, but when u try to meddle with something tried and true, u risk having the whole damn house fall down around u. why mess with the "memory" of gwen. jms really picked the wrong storyline to show off with.

its really starting to feel like the whole *peter parkers parent.. clones* *aunt may dies... oh no it was a .... clone* *mj and peter's baby gets... stolen* OH GOD.. is it starting again? all these things should just be ERASED from Spider-man continuality.. including "SINS PAST", damn. im ready to cancel my spidey subscription, and read a borrowed copy b4 committing to buy. if JMS can dig his butt out of this one i'll b honestly amazed. if not, thanks for messing up one of comics longest standing stories. the clones and all? forgivable, but not this. . .

[six11]

yeah it is like a soap isn't it. too much drama. sigh. someone should have made jms read classic spidey b4 he started writing on the series. if jms is a spidey fan.. im ashamed. i guess we find out Oct. 27th, when issue #513 is released. dum de dum dum dum. btw, JMS ur supposed to be writing good spidey stories, not ruining classic ones.

and hey, anyone missing JRJ's art? i am.

dedato is good at drawing spidey and superheroes, but when it comes to getting the feel of uncostumed people... its just not all there, it reminds me too much of the dark Hulk books that he'd been recently on. and all the girls and guys he draws just lack personality. overall the book just looks dark and gloomy.

JRJ had the characters DOWN. the faces they made were JUST right, i guess we've been spoiled by JRJ. sure dedato is more realisitic, but just has less emotion to it. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/hyperhead.gif <-- nice faces on these boards ha ha

[gildea]

Got to agree with cyke the only interesting thing that gwen ever did was die.

That's it.



I mean- ask yourself why people even cared that she died?

It was completely unexpected, thats why people cared.

[Dragon]

Got to agree with cyke the only interesting thing that gwen ever did was die.

That's it.





It was completely unexpected, thats why people cared.

No.. That was why you cared.

There's actually a world out there that doesn't revolve around you.

[iain246]

Only started reading JMS stuff when Supreme Power was released and even then I was uncertain about the guy that created Babaylon 5 (sorry Babylon 5 fans but I hated it) but his totem stories in Amazing Spider-man and the current Sins Past story are some of the best stuff I'm reading at the moment.

[gildea]

No.. That was why you cared.

There's actually a world out there that doesn't revolve around you.



Really??

I'm 23. I knew the story before I ever actually read it, so I was hardly ever going to find the outcome surprising.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to criticise one viewpoint as a generalisation because it happens to disagree with your own?? (and indeed in the criticism make a wrongheaded assumption).


Truth is now all people remember gwen for is her death, which is entirely valid because it was the only interesting storyline to stem directly from her (whilst she was still one of the supporting cast).

[Honey Vibe]

I think JMS's writing is some boring-ass tripe, and that's why I haven't picked up the ASM main title in months. My interest just went out, like a fan.

This type of story-arc is not surprising. Straczynski has always gotten away with too much. I've had enough of him screwing around with the established past, and passing it off as new adventures for Spider-Man. Not to mention his writing ability is DEFINITELY not professional enough to get paid for it. His plots are well thought-out, but the dialogue he uses to convey them is horrible sometimes.

There's too many better alternatives out there (especially The Moth; this comic is everything Spidey should be). I see no reason to stick it out.

[Joker]

He does have a point.I've read most of Stan 'the man' Lee's ASM issues and the most noteable thing I remember about her from them is the death of Captain Stacey.Even then she was nothing spectacular in it.

The catty remarks between Gwen and MJ around Peter were the best.And thats cos MJ's were funnier.

[Honey Vibe]

Wasn't Liz after Peter too, back then? Heh.

[tt]

The more I here whines about this storyline the more I hope JMS does nothing to change things in the last two issues. :D ;)

After the dust has settled, this storyline will take it's place among the other classic Spider-Man stories, I'm sure of that.

[Dragon]

Really??

I'm 23. I knew the story before I ever actually read it, so I was hardly ever going to find the outcome surprising.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to criticise one viewpoint as a generalisation because it happens to disagree with your own?? (and indeed in the criticism make a wrongheaded assumption).


Truth is now all people remember gwen for is her death, which is entirely valid because it was the only interesting storyline to stem directly from her (whilst she was still one of the supporting cast).

I'm not criticizing your point as a generalization because it differs from my own. I'm criticizing it as a generalization because it IS a generalization.

In this very response you say "all people remember Gwen for is her death". Well, I'm "people", and there are a number of others who post on these boards who remember alot more about Gwen's character aside from her death. The fact that you Cyclops and others may not, is simply a reflection of your overall opinion of the character, not her importance in general. I could say that MJ's only importance is to walk around half-naked. But that would only be my opinion. And while there are others who might share it, I would be wrong to generalize and say that my opinion is what "all people" think.

And your point about her death being the only storyline to stem directly from her is also flawed. It didn't stem directly from her for one thing. Her death was merely a result of the continuing battle between Spidey and the Goblin. Secondly, supportiing characters rarely if ever had storylines stem from their own actions up to that point. You had Betty's involvement with criminals in ASM #10-11, you had the drug issues (and Harry's drug use was a plot point, not the main thrust of the story) and you had Flash's Vietnam story in #108-109. I suppose you could count JJJ's anti-Spidey activities as well, but he was more or less the villain of those stories. Gwen's character could have been used effectively, she just wasn't.

[Herr Logan]

Go back and read the frickin' comics!

But in a nutshell, Gwen was pretty much what alot of guys would look for in a girlfriend/wife. Loving, smart, beautiful, fun, tough and loyal. What she wasn't was flighty, frivolous, and bubble-headed. Allowing a one-night stand to turn into parenthood and expecting Peter to carry the burden of her "mistake". Although granted the story isn't yet complete.

I mean- ask yourself why people even cared that she died?

As for her personality or lack thereof, that's in the eyes of the beholder. What the real problem was, was that Gerrry Conway at that point didn't know what to do with the character and didn't know how to take the relationship to the next level, so they went for the shock value.

But honestly, I think Gwen had ALOT more potential than MJ. (And this is not an invitation to debate which character is better). IMO, MJ is limited in the Spidey stories to being for the most part on the sidelines. We can at best see her doing her modeling or acting, and occasionally being involved with Peter's adventures. Otherwise she's just the loving, sexy wife. But for the most part, she's window dressing. Gwen however, could have had a direct part in Spidey's stories. She was a science major, and I could easily see her becoming either a forensic pathologist or even a cop like her dad. She could have actually been a part of the action and not have looked awkward. There was the powerful dynamic of her believing Spidey had a part in her father's death, the resolution of which could have led to a great story. The same with her learning Peter's secret. But TPTB didn't have the vision to take advantage of that potential. This however doesn't take away from the character. But what's going on in Sins Past does.

Yeah, that's right. Show 'em who's read his comics, Dragon.
Hell, you're making me wish she had lived so I could see her work with the police!
Also, Gwen was an activist. I know first-hand how annoying it is to be involved with an activist type, but it's another area of potential for Gwen, and the way she went about it was a testament to her strength of character. I remember she told a cop who'd disrespected her at a protest that nobody talks to Gwen Stacy that way. The cop stammers "S-Stacy?" You mean, like Captain Stacy's girl? Yeah, that's right, keep walkin', pig. Also, she'd rabidly defend Peter when the protest leaders dissed him for having more pressing concerns than joining their group and being a selfish coward.

[Honey Vibe]

Dragon, I know you plainly stated that you don't want to debate which girl is better, but MJ majored in psychology. She could have also been involved in the police force, counseling cops or the weirdoes Pete puts behind bars.

If the roles were reversed, I think MJ would have been the "potential character" who died tragically, and Gwen would be the eye candy. Female characters are sexual objects, regardless of their 'potential'.

[Herr Logan]

Female characters are usually human characters. All humans are animals. Almost all animals are "sexual objects." I just thought I'd lay down the facts so people didn't feel they had a liscense to waste time with a pointless, subjective and inaccurate debate over who is or isn't a "sexual object."

[six11]

Quote: " After the dust has settled, this storyline will take it's place among the other classic Spider-Man stories, I'm sure of that"

stupid stupid stupid. YES it will be a well known story line. I think that is JMS's intention, he wants to be known as the person that changed "spiderman history" forever. and what did he do? he does it by RUINING THE BEST and definitely MOST important event in "spiderman's life" other than his origin. yes this arc will be a classic, and jms knows he'll b discussed for doing this for a LONG time, but at the cost of &*(#$ing up the work of STAN LEE and the past 30 years of ASM history.

the events in #512 is like at the age of 29 finding out that... lets say...OH U ARE ADOPTED(OR WHATEVER WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC AND TRAGICALLY DEPRESSING FOR A WHILE), LOL, only this isn't the real world where we just "discover the truth", JMS MADE THIS PIECE OF &*#$ and he SURE as HELL didn't have to. 40 yrs of spidey and now JMS is spreading his stupid story around, THANK YOU.

[Herr Logan]

Quote: " After the dust has settled, this storyline will take it's place among the other classic Spider-Man stories, I'm sure of that"

stupid stupid stupid. YES it will be a well known story line. I think that is JMS's intention, he wants to be known as the person that changed "spiderman history" forever. and what did he do? he does it by RUINING THE BEST and definitely MOST important event in "spiderman's life" other than his origin. yes this arc will be a classic, and jms knows he'll b discussed for doing this for a LONG time, but at the cost of &*(#$ing up the work of STAN LEE and the past 30 years of ASM history.

the events in #512 is like at the age of 29 finding out that... lets say...OH U ARE ADOPTED(OR WHATEVER WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC AND TRAGICALLY DEPRESSING FOR A WHILE), LOL, only this isn't the real world where we just "discover the truth", JMS MADE THIS PIECE OF &*#$ and he SURE as HELL didn't have to. 40 yrs of spidey and now JMS is spreading his stupid story around, THANK YOU.

What a legacy to leave, huh? I think metr0man summed it up pretty good:

I'd like to see someone else write the Babylon 5 TV movie where it's revealed that Delenn had sex with President Clark while Sheriden was away at Z'ha'dum, and became pregnant with his kids, and gave birth and hid them away somewhere, then be in the room when JMS sees this TV movie for the first time.
It would be realistic. I mean, Delenn isn't a saint or anything, it would be "realistic" and people make mistakes and such, right?

[Honey Vibe]

All humans are animals. Almost all animals are "sexual objects." This is a really poor argument. Aren't you wasting prime mating time by reading and enjoying comicbooks any way?

[Herr Logan]

My argument isn't any poorer than one that seeks to generalize about female characters in comic books and discuss the idea of "sexual objects" using only subjective opinion. What I said was fact. Yes, I'm sure it sounds weak in an empassionaed argument, but that's kind of the point-- it's about what's true, not about feelings.

[six11]

good idea metr0

well time to get my hands on everything JMS has created and taking pen and paper to it :) and yes of course i'll make it "logical"

cuz logic leads to the best story lines right? and who can hate logic?
HAHAHAH

[tt]

Fan reactions were similar when Gwen Stacy was killed off.

[six11]

the only difference TT is that that was in 1970whatever.

the story of gwen is now classic, and has been for the past 30 odd years.

now you're telling me that this is a similar situation?

yeah i don't think so. you don't destroy one classic story from ASM history so you can start a new supposed "classic story". the AMS 121 122 arc is so popular cuz it was well thought at and had a huge impact, and are just well written and planned out books. this new JMS arc will never be an arc that is as loved, revered, or mayb even liked by fans. it'll more be known as the destruction of a beautiful classic spiderman history.

[tt]

the only difference TT is that that was in 1970whatever.

the story of gwen is now classic, and has been for the past 30 odd years.

now you're telling me that this is a similar situation?

yeah i don't think so. you don't destroy one classic story from ASM history so you can start a new supposed "classic story". the AMS 121 122 arc is so popular cuz it was well thought at and had a huge impact, and are just well written and planned out books. this new JMS arc will never be an arc that is as loved, revered, or mayb even liked by fans. it'll more be known as the destruction of a beautiful classic spiderman history.

I said the fan reactions were similar, people got upset but they also got over it and now the story is classic. You can disagree with me but I think this story is wonderful and one of the future fan favorites.

Naturally not everyone will like it, there are still some people who are wishing for Gwen Stacy's resurrection. :bomb:

[Dragon]

Dragon, I know you plainly stated that you don't want to debate which girl is better, but MJ majored in psychology. She could have also been involved in the police force, counseling cops or the weirdoes Pete puts behind bars.

If the roles were reversed, I think MJ would have been the "potential character" who died tragically, and Gwen would be the eye candy. Female characters are sexual objects, regardless of their 'potential'.

Yeah, but- While MJ may have studied psychology, (As one has to study a variety of courses in college) it wasn't what she wanted to do. And while yes, we never learned alot about Gwen's future plans, her being a science major and a cop's daughter make those areas a very plausible direction for her. Especially since her father was killed, and Gwen being the only child would likely pick up the torch.

And I agree with you that more often than not female characters in comics are wrongfully valued based on their breast size. But I think that a serious problem with the Pete, MJ relationship is her not being directly involved in the stories (This was also a serious problem with Peter and Gwen). And while I hope the problem is solved, this might have been more easily solved with Gwen.

[Herr Logan]

the only difference TT is that that was in 1970whatever.

the story of gwen is now classic, and has been for the past 30 odd years.

now you're telling me that this is a similar situation?

yeah i don't think so. you don't destroy one classic story from ASM history so you can start a new supposed "classic story". the AMS 121 122 arc is so popular cuz it was well thought at and had a huge impact, and are just well written and planned out books. this new JMS arc will never be an arc that is as loved, revered, or mayb even liked by fans. it'll more be known as the destruction of a beautiful classic spiderman history.

Not only is he screwing with a classic story in order to create a new one, he's using a character that is already gone. It's one thing to kill a character to create agony and drama in the life of a still living character, but to pervert a dead character just because you can't come up with anything better is really low.

I really liked some of JMS's writing. Even when he did that whole totemistic spider destiny crap that was so godawfully uninspired, cliche and uncreative, I still thought he wrote decent dialogue. Now he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Just like Grant Morrison shouldn't take free license with the X-Men (I say him rather than Chuck Austen, since Morrison actually does a good job when he isn't bastardizing and pissing all over other people's characters), JMS shouldn't be putting his own spin on things just to stir up controversy and sales. I'd rather see Doc Ock (hopefully one that looks like JR Jr's version and not the *****ty new look) resurface and try to redeem himself in the eyes of May Parker, Quentin Beck come back from the dead and make a mortal enemy out of a hero that's even more "second-rate" than Daredevil as his next swan song, and Sabretooth actually turn out to be Wolverine's father's cousin's half-brother's uncle's clone at the same time than this bull*****.

[Kent]

Pissed at JMS? Not in the slightest.

[ragingdemon155]

I'm not pissed at JMS one bit. This story has been intense and exciting from the start. I'm loving the plot and the art has been excellent.

It really doesnt bother me about Gwen because as some people have mentioned, she never really got developed or had much personality to her to begin with. Her shining moment was her death and thats what made her an icon. Im glad that JMS is adding something more to her and its appearing that she wasnt as perfect as everyone thought. Its fun to read a story where the plot lines are being revealed to me at the same time as they are to Peter so its almost like being there yourself.

Anyway, I'm hoping that JMS doesnt do something drastic and completely change this story around just to statisfy some of the people crying about it. I hope he sticks with it and follows it through.

[six11]

I said the fan reactions were similar, people got upset but they also got over it and now the story is classic. You can disagree with me but I think this story is wonderful and one of the future fan favorites.

Naturally not everyone will like it, there are still some people who are wishing for Gwen Stacy's resurrection. :bomb:
wonderful story... no. future fan favorite... not much of a chance of this unless JMS can save the story arc, but really, digging a grave this deep i dont think JMS or any other writer can get out of it. how can an atrocious story line that spits in face spiderman tradition be liked?

some people are wishing for gwen stacy's ressurrection?? lol. those so called "people" are those that are in love with gwen's character. the majority of spiderman fans are not so superficial and shallow. We LOVE the now classic STORIES assiciated with gwen, her importance and signifigance in peters life, and the repercussions of gwen's death. the story of gwen stacy/spiderman is one that goes BEYOND comic book villians battling superheroes, its was story of love, and loss, and all that wonderful shiet. what a wonderful story! which JMS is now tainting with this gwen/norman osbourn affair.. its laughable.

JMS's story arc belongs in a tabloid magazine along with headlines like "king kong is my next door neighbor", "Jack nicholson stole my cat's feces", and NOT in the pages of ASM.

[six11]

I'm not pissed at JMS one bit. This story has been intense and exciting from the start. I'm loving the plot and the art has been excellent.

It really doesnt bother me about Gwen because as some people have mentioned, she never really got developed or had much personality to her to begin with. Her shining moment was her death and thats what made her an icon. Im glad that JMS is adding something more to her and its appearing that she wasnt as perfect as everyone thought. Its fun to read a story where the plot lines are being revealed to me at the same time as they are to Peter so its almost like being there yourself.

Anyway, I'm hoping that JMS doesnt do something drastic and completely change this story around just to statisfy some of the people crying about it. I hope he sticks with it and follows it through.
wow you claim that her only importance is her death, that without is she'd be and unknown has-been character. yes her death did ADD to her as a character.

but u claiming that it is her ONLY contribution to ASM is absurd. is Elvis only popular cuz he died young. same with Bruce Lee? oh i know, if Tupac wasn't killed in a shooting i guess no one would care about him either. give me a break.

[ragingdemon155]

First off, I have no idea why your bringing up REAL people when discussing a comic character but anyway, bruce, tupac and elvis all had personalities before they passed away.

gwen didnt ;)

[Herr Logan]

six11, you're really pissing me off.

Jack Nicholson would never do a thing like that!

:p

[six11]

u know what the difference is Ibetween real celebrities and story ppl in each of our movie watching/radio listening/comic read in MY life and YOUR life? Nothing.

yes a bit of a stretch, but if u get the gist of what im saying.

what is elvis to you? a few songs.

tupac? the same.

bruce lee? nice moves.

u know what tho, they're just all good "stories" we hear about, read about, or see. they all send a message, make us feel some things, think some things, maybe inspire us. And fictitious people/stories can do all those things as well as things from our *real world*. just look at classic books, philosophies, etc.

[ragingdemon155]

They were all established and so on before there deaths.

Gwen was established because of her death. When people are asked "what do they remember as "gwens moment"", her death is ALWAYS the answer. She never did anything of importence except "die".

[Herr Logan]

:rolleyes:

Don't make me waste my time pulling out my Essential collections so I can tell you the exact issue in which Gwen first appeared. She was established before her death as well. Using inaccurate and sloppy language does not make a derisive and ignorant argument stronger, it merely proves how invalid it is without forcing the reader to think about it too much before coming to that conclusion.

[six11]

They were all established and so on before there deaths.

Gwen was established because of her death. When people are asked "what do they remember as "gwens moment"", her death is ALWAYS the answer. She never did anything of importence except "die".
that's solely your opionin, and I do not agree with it.

maybe you need to read more ASM books.

why was her death so important? would it have been as important if lets say... JJJ's son, Col. Jameson Died? i think not. what if Ned Leeds Died OH OOPS HE DID AND NO ONE CARES. SO why the fuss about Gwen dying? BECAUSE she was a great character and people cared and SHE was an important character in spidey history. not even Harry Osborns death rates 1/10000000th as high as Gwens death. want to take another guess WHY?

i think i just proved how important gwen as as a character in the ASM title and continued to be so even after her death.

[LarryLegend]

I think that JMS has shown his ego clearly. First he decides to play with Spider-Man's origin with his totemistic storylines. Now he's completly rewritten the events of ASM 121/122 while also casting a dark clound over ASM 31-120. To me his determined to take 40 years of storylines and flush them down the toilet to create his new version of Spider-Man.

[Herr Logan]

If they ever put him on Wolverine's book, there'd be tons and tons of origin, romance and enemy-harms-lover stories for him to mess with. Frankly, I'd have been happier if they through him on Wolverine so he could mess around there, since Wolverine has been written pretty poorly in recent years. Instead, Millar is showing off his talent on both a Spider-Man book and "Wolverine." Too bad they couldn't give him the two he's working on and Amazing at the same time.

[spideylover89]

that's solely your opionin, and I do not agree with it.

maybe you need to read more ASM books.

why was her death so important? would it have been as important if lets say... JJJ's son, Col. Jameson Died? i think not. what if Ned Leeds Died OH OOPS HE DID AND NO ONE CARES. SO why the fuss about Gwen dying? BECAUSE she was a great character and people cared and SHE was an important character in spidey history. not even Harry Osborns death rates 1/10000000th as high as Gwens death. want to take another guess WHY?

i think i just proved how important gwen as as a character in the ASM title and continued to be so even after her death.


I think the main reason Gwen's death was such an impact is because she died because spidey failed to save the girl he loved. Gwen was his big failure. It wasn't like Uncle Ben where he wasn't there to save Ben, spidey was there when Gwen died and it was his fault. She was killed because Gobby wanted to torture spidey. She died because of spidey. That is why her death made such an impact. Sure people where upset because spidey's love died, but what really mad it stick was the fact that it finally showed spidey was not invincible.

Now concerning sins past, I don't really know how it will be remembered. It could very well turn into a classic or a total waiste. There is no way to tell...unless you're psychic ;)
I'm willing to wait til this is over because to me the most important part is the ending. The ending could make or break the story. If JMS cops out for the ending, forget it. But there is still a chance he will come through.

[Cyclops]

Wow. Leave it to this kind of thing to make people on message boards feel self-important.

Not professional enough to get paid? Sheesh. Sounds like something... oh... someone who's proven themselves a better writer could afford to say, not some random fan on the internet. To say you like or dislike someone's work is one thing, but to say they don't even deserve to be paid for the work they do? Wow. How high is that horse you're riding? Or to criticize someone's current work that you've admitted to not reading for months... Jeezoman... that's like criticizing a novel you've never read just because you don't care for their past work.

And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here. There is no way to conclusively prove any of this stuff. I've done my research, I've looked at the back issues, and the most memorable thing Gwen ever did was die. How does this crap on her memory when what she's really remembered for is getting knocked off of a bridge? I'm sorry, I don't see it. I just don't see it. Was she a great character? If she was, I didn't really see too much of it, she seemed more or less solely crafted to complement Peter, not to be a character in and of herself. And I can recall Conway's words on the matter...
"She was always such a stiff. So I made her one for real!" Was it the best decision? Perhaps not. But I dare you, ask any Spider-Man fan who knows the history to tell you the first story that comes to mind when you say the words "Gwen Stacy". I doubt they'll tell you "The story where Peter bought a motorcycle and first fought The Rhino".

[Auntie May]

A typical Spidey fan is supposed to be mad right now. Supposedly the joy is coming. It just better be good, otherwise some people will remain pissed at JMS and might drop the book.

[Herr Logan]

The story in which Peter Parker got his new bike and first fought the Rhino featured Mary Jane Watson far more prominently than Gwen, if Gwen featured at all (I'm too tired to check right this second), as it was her first time meeting Peter and they both rode to the scene of the Rhino's rampage on his bike. Keep up that research. :up:

[Auntie May]

Here are some more people not too happy with JMS right now

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/109683814269203.htm

[masteryoda]

The story in which Peter Parker got his new bike and first fought the Rhino featured Mary Jane Watson far more prominently than Gwen, if Gwen featured at all (I'm too tired to check right this second), as it was her first time meeting Peter and they both rode to the scene of the Rhino's rampage on his bike. Keep up that research. :up:
Wow, you sure showed him. :rolleyes:

[six11]

i just went back and re-read #512. i dunno. i was looking for holes in the book where JMS could pull the wool off our eyes and say "FOOLED YA!!" but not really seeing any... which is unfortunate.

from the letter in #510, the back has a portion of writing that says "I was pregnant" which well i guess it couldn't have been someone else that was pregnant with the babies lol... which was one way to fix the story line, some kinda of surrogate mother thing, but whoosh out the window with that idea.

and when gwen, in #512 says, "i didn't intend for it to happen,~~~ i just couldn't walk away" i dunno it doesnt say um what uMMM happened. or ya.. or.. ya.

oh ya maybe he was so strong and magnetic that uMM he convinced her to carry some embryos for him to term... urm.. ya. and she agreed.. on account of his strength and magnetism...

sigh.

[Dragon]

And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here. There is no way to conclusively prove any of this stuff. I've done my research, I've looked at the back issues, and the most memorable thing Gwen ever did was die. How does this crap on her memory when what she's really remembered for is getting knocked off of a bridge? I'm sorry, I don't see it. I just don't see it. Was she a great character? If she was, I didn't really see too much of it, she seemed more or less solely crafted to complement Peter, not to be a character in and of herself. And I can recall Conway's words on the matter...
"She was always such a stiff. So I made her one for real!" Was it the best decision? Perhaps not. But I dare you, ask any Spider-Man fan who knows the history to tell you the first story that comes to mind when you say the words "Gwen Stacy". I doubt they'll tell you "The story where Peter bought a motorcycle and first fought The Rhino".

What's hilarious is that you, like gildea write a response where you claim to not generalize and back your point up by more generalization. You're still using the "ask any Spidey fan" thing.

I don't know the point at which you started reading the books, but have you considered that Gwen's death is her biggest moment to you because it's the first thing you knew about her? If you started following the comics when Gwen was nothing more than a sad, distant memory mentioned once every 20 issues or so, she might not be very important.

But forgetting that, it was her importance to Peter that matters most. In the comics, Gwen was established as Peter's TRUE love. Meaning she didn't screw with and have kids by other men for God's sake. The fans who are bothered by these new developments feel they "crap all over her memory".

What did Gwen do in the comics? She loved Peter. She made him see that there was more to his world than misery. That's all that MJ does now. And that's enough. Many of us are fond of that aspect of the character. These developments are telling us that Gwen didn't love him. And worse, that she didn't even know what love is.

[Cyclops]

I'm still using it because it's viable. Dying is the most important thing she ever did. And it is what she will be remembered for. Perhaps to you being a true love character is enough, but that's such a flat dimension to occupy, gives little room for depth of character. She was Peter's girlfriend and very little else, if anything at all. You said that yourself up there. What did she do? She loved Peter. She loved him and she died. Not alot of room for depth. Now, there's another aspect. She loved Peter, she died, and she made an error in judgement.

She was Pete's "true love" because she was designed with that intent purpose in mind. This mistake she's committed here just adds another dimension to her character. Instead of Peter's perfect complement, she's now the girl he fell in love with, but with a flaw. Not to mention that we still don't know the whole story. She felt irresistibly magnetized to him? Is it perhaps possible, just maybe, that she had been manipulated in some way? I mean, perish forbid, Norman Osborn, master manipulator not manipulate Gwen, true love of his arch enemy, to betray him and further Osborn's goals at the same time... no, that'd make it too hard to jump to rash conclusions before the story's over.

Yeah, she kinda, oh... died before I was born, so no, I couldn't have been introduced to her before she was killed. And yeah, that'll probably make you feel more important than me in the long run, so good for you.

[shinlyle]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.

Gwen, while she was a wholesome little woman, never really did much. Even Stan Lee said that she was invented to be Peter's perfect love, but she just wasn't a very interesting character to write. When MJ came along, people instantly fell in love with her because she was the wild, rambunctious vixen that guys sought after.

Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?

Am I mad at JMS? Oh yeah. I really don't like what he's done to Gwen, but I'll accept it and try to enjoy the rest of the story. Besides, it's not over yet, and we don't know how it's going to end. I'm willing to give JMS the benefit of the doubt. He's given us a good enough run for me to wait it out on this one. He did kind of save the Spidey titles, after all.

I'm not happy, but I'll give the man his due.

[Dragon]

I'm still using it because it's viable. Dying is the most important thing she ever did. And it is what she will be remembered for. Perhaps to you being a true love character is enough, but that's such a flat dimension to occupy, gives little room for depth of character. She was Peter's girlfriend and very little else, if anything at all. You said that yourself up there. What did she do? She loved Peter. She loved him and she died. Not alot of room for depth. Now, there's another aspect. She loved Peter, she died, and she made an error in judgement.

First, dying isn't something she did. It's something that was done to her. Second, if you choose to approach things from that angle, what has Mary Jane or Aunt May done of any importance? MJ has "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" and marrying Peter. And this is with an additional 30 years in the books. What has Flash done? Aside from being the Goblin's son and becoming the Goblin himself, what has Harry done? Liz? They're all just supporting characters, reacting to what goes on in Peter's life.

And yes, while Gwen could've stood some fleshing out, it doesn't mean that ANY and every possible behavior should now apply to her. That she's fair game for any type of error in judgement. In reading ASMs #31-121 there are no implications that Gwen would engage in the behavior alluded to in ASM #512. There are however actions on her part that say she wouldn't have done this.

She was Pete's "true love" because she was designed with that intent purpose in mind. This mistake she's committed here just adds another dimension to her character. Instead of Peter's perfect complement, she's now the girl he fell in love with, but with a flaw. Not to mention that we still don't know the whole story. She felt irresistibly magnetized to him? Is it perhaps possible, just maybe, that she had been manipulated in some way? I mean, perish forbid, Norman Osborn, master manipulator not manipulate Gwen, true love of his arch enemy, to betray him and further Osborn's goals at the same time... no, that'd make it too hard to jump to rash conclusions before the story's over.

Yeah, it adds a dimension to her character. One that removes the possibility of her being the woman Peter truly loved. There's a reason why Peter for example doesn't love Black Cat. There's a reason why Peter for a long time wasn't interested in Mary Jane. If you can relegate having sex with another man and bearing his children "an error in judgment" then I guess the Goblin murdering her was merely a tragic accident as well. There are some errors in judgement that you can't recover from. And this is why I'm saying having children with Osborn tarnishes her memory.

And, even from the perspective of Gwen dying, it also takes away from that story. The great tragedy of Gwen's death was that there was no reason for her die other than being in love with Peter. Now with all of these contrived plot points all of that is removed. Gwen was now killed because of her own decisions. And while this doesn't make her murder any more justified, it removes the impact of her death from Peter.

And I've been saying all along that the story isn't over yet and can (and MUST) turn out differently from what we're seeing. But right now we're speaking of the events as shown and how we feel about them.

Yeah, she kinda, oh... died before I was born, so no, I couldn't have been introduced to her before she was killed. And yeah, that'll probably make you feel more important than me in the long run, so good for you.

It's responses like that that show how childish you are about all of this and thus why you rely on generalizations to make your case. I've been trying to get across to you that your take on this is merely your opinion. I've never tried to make it as though it weren't valid, or that my opinion is more important that yours. The premise of your argument has been that because YOU don't see any value in Gwen's character, that NO ONE does or should. I'm saying that those of us who are bothered by these events have a differing perspective and why. Not that you should think this way, but understand why we do.

[Dragon]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.

Gwen, while she was a wholesome little woman, never really did much. Even Stan Lee said that she was invented to be Peter's perfect love, but she just wasn't a very interesting character to write. When MJ came along, people instantly fell in love with her because she was the wild, rambunctious vixen that guys sought after.

Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?

Am I mad at JMS? Oh yeah. I really don't like what he's done to Gwen, but I'll accept it and try to enjoy the rest of the story. Besides, it's not over yet, and we don't know how it's going to end. I'm willing to give JMS the benefit of the doubt. He's given us a good enough run for me to wait it out on this one. He did kind of save the Spidey titles, after all.

I'm not happy, but I'll give the man his due.

But the thing is that Gwen isn't becoming more realistic. She's becoming more unrealistic, because the behavior attributed to her isn't realistic for her.

For example: It's realistic that people kill each other. But I'm sure that most of us agree that it still isn't realistic that Peter would kill his enemies.

Back when there was (And I still think there is) the possibilty of these being Peter's kids, I believed, based on Gwen's character, that was realisitc that Gwen would've gotten pregnant by Peter, learned she was pregnant but was uncertain of what to do about it. She wouldn't want to abort them because they were hers and Peter's. But she also didn't want to put te burden of them on Peter's shoulders before he was really ready to deal with a family.

But in Sins Past- we have her having sex with Norman simply because of his "magnetism". Getting pregnant, not aborting the preganacy. Lying to Peter about it, going away for 4 months with no contact, returning, expecting Peter to still be there for her, and for him to want to still marry her and care for the children that she had as a result of her affair. And this is supposed to be realistic? For Jerry Springer maybe. If anything this renders Gwen, a girl we knew to be pretty smart to just shy of mentally retarded.

[Cyclops]

It's responses like that that show how childish you are about all of this and thus why you rely on generalizations to make your case. I've been trying to get across to you that your take on this is merely your opinion. I've never tried to make it as though it weren't valid, or that my opinion is more important that yours. The premise of your argument has been that because YOU don't see any value in Gwen's character, that NO ONE does or should. I'm saying that those of us who are bothered by these events have a differing perspective and why. Not that you should think this way, but understand why we do.

Oh, yep, you got me down pat. Shoot. How'd you figure me out? Maybe I should just try the direct approach. I IMPOSE MY WILL UPON YOU! BOOGEDY BOO!!! Shoot. Didn't work.

Sarcasm over.


And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here.

Blam. You expressed your side of it, I expressed my side of it. How are my words imposing my will on everybody else? How is what you were saying any different than what I am saying?

Yes, I consider what Gwen did here an error in judgement. Either that, or her falling prey to Norman's manipulation in some way or another. Which is another point I've brought up, yet was ignored.

See, MJ at least has had alot more to her than Gwen. From being crafted as a joke in the beginning and really fleshing out into a fuller character than more or less anybody in Spidey's supporting cast, she's done quite a bit. We're privvy to her thoughts frequently, and at times has narrated quite a few issues of the book, or portions of others (see Kraven's Last Hunt for example). She figured out Pete's secret identity long ago, she's had more than her fair share of brushes with villains, particularly one who thought that she was Spider-Man, and so on and soforth. MJ developed more as a character because she wasn't initially intended to be Mrs. Spider-Man, that just kinda happened after Gwen died.

Aunt May, I'd agree with you up until recent years when JMS actually gave her a human personality rather than a "doting aunt" stereotype.

And I don't see Gwen running off to have the babies in secret as retarded. She was young. Scared. Smart people make stupid decisions all the time, despite their intellect. Surely you know what I mean unless you're somehow flawless.

And that's what it was about Gwen that kinda bugged me. She was little more than "the perfect girlfriend" rather than an actual human being who makes mistakes and ****s up royally every once in a while. This adds that dimension to her. I mean, seriously. Can you honestly say that you've never done anything RIDICULOUSLY stupid that causes nothing but regret and misery in your entire life? At it's worst, this is what it is. Does it desanctify Gwen? Yes. Yes it does. Is that a bad thing? No. It just makes her what Pete himself is: human.

But anyway, I better get back to trying to program you guys to line up with my opinions.

[dan1]

what if it ends that Norman gave Gwen something to control her mind, and make her tell all those things to MJ cause he thought she would tell Peter, and none of it is true, the kids are just kids he abducted and genetically altered to age faster, and he lied to them, and they have nothing to do with Gwen at all, it was all just a ploy to torture Peter?

Then I would feel a little better about it, but I would still be dissapointed that the writing would be so uninspired to come up with a dragged out BS story that's a "been there, done that." Ever hear of Mysterio? At the end of the arc it's all an illusion? That's silly.

Anyway, it is lame that these guys can't come up with exciting new stuff.

I mean how do you think the plots that these guys are regurgitating and twisting up were created in the first place? They were written by people with great imaginations.

Can't these writers write awesome new stories that continue the characters growth and show us new things about new cast members or already existing cast members that we don't know everything about? (I mean living cast members)

It's weird when a "big" arc ends up being a "look the past was totally different than you thought." I don't know why these people can't get on the ball.

Ezekial/Morlun/Shathra was okay, but the last threat should have been HUGE and we should have learned in the end that Peter is NOT a part of the Spider-Totem mumbo jumbo. He is not the equivalent of the Black Panther, he is an accidental science experiment, not voodo magic.

I think after Millar finishes the 12 issue of Marvel Knights, he is welcome aboard ASM. Unless JMS wants to take Spider-Man >forward> without magic.

[Dangerous]

Hate lots, wrecks Gwen one of my fave Spidey characters.

[Dragon]

As far as I know, all that anybody really remembers about Gwen was that she died at the hands of the Green Goblin.

That's you. Not speaking for yourself, but everyone else.

Yes, I consider what Gwen did here an error in judgement. Either that, or her falling prey to Norman's manipulation in some way or another. Which is another point I've brought up, yet was ignored.

I've ignored the manipulation thing because that's no where in the text. When Gwen is speaking, it's months later, and she doesn't recall anything other than Norman's magnetism.

And I'm actually agreeing with you that it was an error in judgement. So too was the Goblin murdering her. My point is that error's in judgement don't always equal forgivable errors.


See, MJ at least has had alot more to her than Gwen. From being crafted as a joke in the beginning and really fleshing out into a fuller character than more or less anybody in Spidey's supporting cast, she's done quite a bit. We're privvy to her thoughts frequently, and at times has narrated quite a few issues of the book, or portions of others (see Kraven's Last Hunt for example). She figured out Pete's secret identity long ago, she's had more than her fair share of brushes with villains, particularly one who thought that she was Spider-Man, and so on and soforth. MJ developed more as a character because she wasn't initially intended to be Mrs. Spider-Man, that just kinda happened after Gwen died.

Like I said, MJ only developed into a character because she was given the opportunity to do so. They devoted whole issues and storylines to her development. Gwen was never granted this. And, even with all of the panel-time granted MJ over these 30 YEARS, she still mostly sits on the sidelines, just looking sexy. She's still not a full character. Her very limited career choices mean that she has little direct connection to the stories. This is why MJ has worn out her welcome more than once. JMS has to inject contrivances like her keeping secrets for years to make her a part of the story(Even though her actions earlier in the story made no hint of her having these secrets, and even contradicted her having them. I guessed she did, but only because of the way the story was structured.) Alot more could have been done with Gwen.

And I don't see Gwen running off to have the babies in secret as retarded. She was young. Scared. Smart people make stupid decisions all the time, despite their intellect. Surely you know what I mean unless you're somehow flawless.

Gwen wasn't that young. She was about 20. Many women have children at that point, and don't manage to screw things up. The ones who do, you can tend to see it coming. A difficult home life. A lack of education, self-esteem and the like. None of which apply to Gwen. And as I keep saying sure, Gwen was capable of making mistakes. But that doesn't mean she's capable of making EVERY CONCEIVABLE MISTAKE. I know of a number of women who have screwed up royally in their lives, yet never committed adultery. I know of some folks who've committed adultery, yet never made other types of mistakes. You see where I'm going here? As established Gwen was the first type. IF JMS wants me to accept that Gwen would've cheated on Peter he needs to present something more significant than Norman's "magnetism". If he was that smooth, then why didn't MJ fall for him too?


And that's what it was about Gwen that kinda bugged me. She was little more than "the perfect girlfriend" rather than an actual human being who makes mistakes and ****s up royally every once in a while. This adds that dimension to her. I mean, seriously. Can you honestly say that you've never done anything RIDICULOUSLY stupid that causes nothing but regret and misery in your entire life? At it's worst, this is what it is. Does it desanctify Gwen? Yes. Yes it does. Is that a bad thing? No. It just makes her what Pete himself is: human.

Peter has never done anything like what Gwen is presented as doing. Does that make him not human? Neither has MJ. And Gwen was hardly the perfect girlfriend. She made mistakes. Going behind Pete's back to meet with Flash to learn about Peter comes to mind. Backing the politician "Bullit" was another. Again had Conway had some imagination he could have come up with other things.


But anyway, I better get back to trying to program you guys to line up with my opinions.

Good luck with that.

[shinlyle]

I'm still going to give JMS the next two issues to win me over. Before issue #512, evryone was praising this story(well, alot of people, anyways). After issue #514, we may see a return to that. Who knows. I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt...for now.

[Herr Logan]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.
Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?


Why can't everyone forgive Gwen? Because some people have standards and don't allow themselves to be swayed by empty cliches such as "everyone makes mistakes." Spider-Man does plenty of things a rational person wouldn't do, including risking his life for murderous scum like Carnage. Maybe a weak-minded child would think that sort of thing is noble, but in reality, Spider-Man is in fact personally responsible for every single death Carnage adds to the body count. Not by law, but by actual cause and effect. You want to add "realism" to the comic, you better get used to seeing Spider-Man as an accessory before, after, and during the fact of a lot of crimes. Spider-Man is supposed to be a nice, fluffy, wholesome fantasy, albeit tinged with death and sadness, into which even unsavory types like myself can escape to avoid the horrid reality of life. Real life includes killers and rapists that not even the law will labor to neutralize, and a sea of lovers that have so little integrity and respect that it's a miracle any relationship includes two people that actually keep their word to each other. Yeah, let's bring on the reality. There are a few threads open with all kinds of neat suggestions for that, including my suggestion: Peter Parker porking a prostitute and selling drugs to his science class in order to get some extra cash. But we'd forgive him, right?

[Dragon]

I'm still going to give JMS the next two issues to win me over. Before issue #512, evryone was praising this story(well, alot of people, anyways). After issue #514, we may see a return to that. Who knows. I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt...for now.

On this we definitely agree. As unhappy as I am with what I'm seeing, I'm still confident things will turn around. Or I'm kicking JMS in the nuts.

[Cyclops]

Take note that I also said "as far as I know".

Oh, and I don't need luck with it. You're already infected with a delay-action programming virus that'll have you thinkin' like me in no time flat!

[Marcdachamp]

what if it ends that Norman gave Gwen something to control her mind, and make her tell all those things to MJ cause he thought she would tell Peter, and none of it is true, the kids are just kids he abducted and genetically altered to age faster, and he lied to them, and they have nothing to do with Gwen at all, it was all just a ploy to torture Peter?
I'm actually thinking that may be the twist. How awesome would it be if the kids went insane after finding out that they were manipulated for years and brutally killed Norman for it? I like Norman, but I think that'd just be sweet.

Of course, then you have to ignore the DNA...

And I don't hate JMS for it. It's a good story, and I've loved what he's done thus far.

[DDRSkata]

GAAH. This blows SO DAMN BAD. Gwen's big impact on the mythos is that she was a really innocent, kind, pure girl that died and strengthened Peter's determination. It gave Peter even more reason to fight. Now, not only is she not dead, but she's not innocent. For what? This is like saying, "Oh, by the way, Uncle Ben never died. He just ran off to Europe with the female Doc Ock and had some kids. Now he's coming back to dump them on you." What the ****?

[DDRSkata]

On this we definitely agree. As unhappy as I am with what I'm seeing, I'm still confident things will turn around. Or I'm kicking JMS in the nuts.

I'm with you on that one.

[shinlyle]

On this we definitely agree. As unhappy as I am with what I'm seeing, I'm still confident things will turn around. Or I'm kicking JMS in the nuts.


Hell yeah!!
I have faith that the story will turn around... :)

*puts on Steel-toed boots*

....but I'm prepared to do some serious nut-kicking if it doesn't!!!! :mad:

[shinlyle]

Why can't everyone forgive Gwen? Because some people have standards and don't allow themselves to be swayed by empty cliches such as "everyone makes mistakes." Spider-Man does plenty of things a rational person wouldn't do, including risking his life for murderous scum like Carnage. Maybe a weak-minded child would think that sort of thing is noble, but in reality, Spider-Man is in fact personally responsible for every single death Carnage adds to the body count. Not by law, but by actual cause and effect. You want to add "realism" to the comic, you better get used to seeing Spider-Man as an accessory before, after, and during the fact of a lot of crimes. Spider-Man is supposed to be a nice, fluffy, wholesome fantasy, albeit tinged with death and sadness, into which even unsavory types like myself can escape to avoid the horrid reality of life. Real life includes killers and rapists that not even the law will labor to neutralize, and a sea of lovers that have so little integrity and respect that it's a miracle any relationship includes two people that actually keep their word to each other. Yeah, let's bring on the reality. There are a few threads open with all kinds of neat suggestions for that, including my suggestion: Peter Parker porking a prostitute and selling drugs to his science class in order to get some extra cash. But we'd forgive him, right?

Peter doing it with a prostitute and selling drugs to kids wouldn't happen because we know Peter. We know his past, and we can see him internalize everything he does before he actually does it.
With Gwen, we never had that luxury. Gwen was wholesome and good, but we never got to really look into her heart the way we look into Peter's If we could, then we may have seen that she was really longing for Peter, and seeing as how Peter was mister shy back in the day, then maybe she found something in the arms of another man that Peter just wasn't giving her. Should it have been in the arms of Norman freakin' Osbourne? HELL NO!!

Still, we can't undo it, and neither could Gwen. Good people do bad things. Peter once let a criminal run by and get away when he could easily have stopped him. How did that turn out? Doe sthat make Peter a bad person? No. He made a mistake, and he learned from it. Gwen made a mistake, and she learned from it as well. She tried to make things right with Peter, and she was wanting to tell him the truth. She also alienated Norman Osbourne to protect her young children.

Now, had Gwen gotten knocked up by Norman, and then ran off and started whoring herself out on Hollywood boulevard so that she could afford an abortion, then I could understand everyone being a irate about it. But, that wasn't Gwen. She was a good, caring person, and she loved her children, no matter who was the father. So, she did the best she cold, and, had she lived, may have ended up raising them with Peter and even having some more children down the road with him.

Things just ended up the way they did. It happens.

As far as my approval of the story, JMS hasn't won that yet, but he still has a chance to win me over. A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

[Ultimate_Superman]

I am sorry but when I think of Gwen now I am like Peter seeing Norman on top of her and them just doing the nasty. God knows how many times it was done.

[shinlyle]

I am sorry but when I think of Gwen now I am like Peter seeing Norman on top of her and them just doing the nasty. God knows how many times it was done.


That's my issue: who's to say that they didn't keep this up behind Peter's back for awhile? In all honesty, how would we know? Hopefully, all will be answered soon.

[Ultimate_Superman]

I mean I know having a baby is possible after a one night stand but I dont think that was it. I seriously think she was coming back for seconds and thirds. Thats what makes me sick and I could have lived with Harry or Flash or mind control or something but not willing sleeping with him.

[Ultimate_Superman]

Because in my eyes they killed Norman story as well. I mean One rule of comics you dont have the same bad guy behined everything major with the hero's life. I mean thats not the case with Superman and Lex or Batman and The Joker, but for Marvel it is always the case hell even with X-Men the same person is always behind it.

[wolvie2020]

GAAH. This blows SO DAMN BAD. Gwen's big impact on the mythos is that she was a really innocent, kind, pure girl that died and strengthened Peter's determination. It gave Peter even more reason to fight. Now, not only is she not dead, but she's not innocent. For what? This is like saying, "Oh, by the way, Uncle Ben never died. He just ran off to Europe with the female Doc Ock and had some kids. Now he's coming back to dump them on you." What the ****?

I couldn't agree with you more...

I don't know why in the hell I really hold so much faith in JMS anymore,

The end of the Zeke arc sucked SO much balls, and as soon as I think he's back on track...

I dunno. It'd be a lot easier to take if Gwenny was raped.

[Herr Logan]

Peter doing it with a prostitute and selling drugs to kids wouldn't happen because we know Peter. We know his past, and we can see him internalize everything he does before he actually does it.
With Gwen, we never had that luxury. Gwen was wholesome and good, but we never got to really look into her heart the way we look into Peter's If we could, then we may have seen that she was really longing for Peter, and seeing as how Peter was mister shy back in the day, then maybe she found something in the arms of another man that Peter just wasn't giving her. Should it have been in the arms of Norman freakin' Osbourne? HELL NO!!

Still, we can't undo it, and neither could Gwen. Good people do bad things. Peter once let a criminal run by and get away when he could easily have stopped him. How did that turn out? Doe sthat make Peter a bad person? No. He made a mistake, and he learned from it. Gwen made a mistake, and she learned from it as well. She tried to make things right with Peter, and she was wanting to tell him the truth. She also alienated Norman Osbourne to protect her young children.

Now, had Gwen gotten knocked up by Norman, and then ran off and started whoring herself out on Hollywood boulevard so that she could afford an abortion, then I could understand everyone being a irate about it. But, that wasn't Gwen. She was a good, caring person, and she loved her children, no matter who was the father. So, she did the best she cold, and, had she lived, may have ended up raising them with Peter and even having some more children down the road with him.

Things just ended up the way they did. It happens.

As far as my approval of the story, JMS hasn't won that yet, but he still has a chance to win me over. A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

There we go again. "Made a mistake." "It happens." Wake me up when you stop grasping at straws and at the same time tossing out meaningless cliches dedicated toward permissive attitudes.

[onomatopoeia]

Well, I'm not pissed at JMS just yet. Right now I'm excited about the controvesy and interested in the book.

At least until next issue is out I will still hold on to my naïveté. Every little thing's NOT gonna be alright--but perhaps Norman and Gwen didn't make whoopie after all. It's a lot to hope for, but specially in comics there is more than one way to conceive kids. There are still blanks to be filled in Gwen's letter and most of the "facts" come from assumptions derived from what MJ told Peter that she heard from Gwen. All I'm trusting right now is: Gwen was pregnant and gave birth to twins who also have Osborne genes.

Yep, I'm still in denial about Gwen having consensual sex with Norman.

[Doomed_hero]

I just want to know why if the kid is Norman's, does it look so much like Peter.

[Herr Logan]

I'm accepting it at face value and assuming that even if they fix some things, something irreparably bad will be left. I do this because I find the power of negative thinking has an effect on probabilities, or at least my own reaction to a negative result.

[shinlyle]

There we go again. "Made a mistake." "It happens." Wake me up when you stop grasping at straws and at the same time tossing out meaningless cliches dedicated toward permissive attitudes.

Why don't they just show Gwen in a damn Nun outfit everytime Peter flashes back to her? Would that please you? :rolleyes:

I'm not "grasping at straws", kid. I'm trying to be objective. The storyline isn't over yet, and I'm trying to stay open-minded about the potential ending. JMS has gien us roughly 40 good issues of writing...I can give him the benefit of the doubt for this one questionable issue.
I think the problem everyone is having right now is that the vision of the perfect Blonde goodie-goodie has been tarnished by a bit of humanity, and some people can't grasp that.

[Raykel]

Nope. I think it's a great series so far and I also think it's impossible to judge a story until it's finished. There have been a million stories in a million fandoms I've loved at the outset and hated by the end, and there's been a million stories in a million fandoms where I hated the beginning only to be completely won over by the end. I think we'll be in a better position to judge after 514.

As it stands right now after 512: I'm not totally convinced yet that Norman is the father. I still suspect it's Harry after all. But if I'm wrong and it really is Norman, that's okay too. I tend to agree with Cycops on this.

Oh wait! It's his mind control on me! ;)

[Ultimate_Superman]

Am I pissed Does this answer your question :mad: :mad:http://www.loveisalive.net/spiderman/finalgwen.jpg

[DDRSkata]

Am I pissed Does this answer your question :mad: :mad:http://www.loveisalive.net/spiderman/finalgwen.jpg

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG GHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :gg: :bomb: :down:

[Herr Logan]

Why don't they just show Gwen in a damn Nun outfit everytime Peter flashes back to her? Would that please you? :rolleyes:

I'm not "grasping at straws", kid. I'm trying to be objective. The storyline isn't over yet, and I'm trying to stay open-minded about the potential ending. JMS has gien us roughly 40 good issues of writing...I can give him the benefit of the doubt for this one questionable issue.
I think the problem everyone is having right now is that the vision of the perfect Blonde goodie-goodie has been tarnished by a bit of humanity, and some people can't grasp that.

I forget when and where, but I think Dragon recently summed it up real well, what exactly goes through the minds of people who choose to defend infidelity and describe it as "humanity," "a mistake," and other such shallow descriptions. I'll refer all further bull***** from you and your ilk (and I'm sure that there will be a lot) back to Dragon's speech.

[spider-jide]

[QUOTE=Herr Logan]I'm accepting it at face value QUOTE]

I've already done that. Its been "set in stone" if you know what i mean but that doesn't mean i've got to like it.

I'll wait and see how it plays out in the end, whatever the case, this is definately 1 for the history books.

[Dangerous]

Hell yeah!!
I have faith that the story will turn around... :)

*puts on Steel-toed boots*

....but I'm prepared to do some serious nut-kicking if it doesn't!!!! :mad:


Depends what you consider turned around.
I reckon no matter what Gwen's character will be compromised forever, and were suppossed to be gratefull for this?, not me.

[shinlyle]

I forget when and where, but I think Dragon recently summed it up real well, what exactly goes through the minds of people who choose to defend infidelity and describe it as "humanity," "a mistake," and other such shallow descriptions. I'll refer all further bull***** from you and your ilk (and I'm sure that there will be a lot) back to Dragon's speech.

And I'll have you refer all your useless posts to that brick wall over there------>

[Herr Logan]

Depends what you consider turned around.
I reckon no matter what Gwen's character will be compromised forever, and were suppossed to be gratefull for this?, not me.

Gwen could actually be mostly or fully vindicated here, but even if she is, MJ would most likely be compromised. If Gwen at the time of telling MJ the awful "truth" was mnetally programmed or under duress or under false impressions or a clone or a life model decoy or whatever, that still leaves MJ keeping her disgusting betrayal a secret from Peter all these years. Unforgivable. If a friend of mine that had been my rival over a potential lover had won the rivalry and then cheated on that lover, you can bet I'd tell her, whether or not the cheating bastard wanted me to keep it a secret. MJ and Gwen have both disgusted me in this arc, whereas Peter's nauseating actions (or declarations of intended actions) are true to form and those I would expect-- noble but stupid.

[Herr Logan]

And I'll have you refer all your useless posts to that brick wall over there------>

I figured that was what I was arguing with all this time, anyway. You mean a brick wall wouldn't respond as ignorantly?

[shinlyle]

I figured that was what I was arguing with all this time, anyway. You mean a brick wall wouldn't respond as ignorantly?

:rolleyes:

Yeah....that's it, junior.

[Raykel]

Am I pissed Does this answer your question :mad: :mad:http://www.loveisalive.net/spiderman/finalgwen.jpg


Context matters, though! That image isn't REAL. It's all in Peter's imagination. With two issues left in this arc, there's still a lot of room to debunk the story Gwen told MJ.

Although, actually, if it is Norman, that doesn't bother me. It's an interesting story either way, but I am not yet convinced it is Norman.

[ragingdemon155]

I dont think everything is as it seems either Raykel. I still think its Osborn but I believe there is more to this then meets the eye. Either way, JMS has finally brought some big time anticipation for ASM and has people talking about. Granted, alot of the comments are just people saying over and over "I hate JMS i hate JMS" and so on, after most of those same people were saying just an issue ago that JMS was a genious and so on. Funny how fast people change. :rolleyes:

[shinlyle]

I dont think everything is as it seems either Raykel. I still think its Osborn but I believe there is more to this then meets the eye. Either way, JMS has finally brought some big time anticipation for ASM and has people talking about. Granted, alot of the comments are just people saying over and over "I hate JMS i hate JMS" and so on, after most of those same people were saying just an issue ago that JMS was a genious and so on. Funny how fast people change. :rolleyes:


I wonder how many will be changing their minds when its all over? More than will ever admit it, I'd wager.

[ragingdemon155]

So true So true shinlyle

[Abaddon]

They couldve found a better way to give Gwen depth,post-mortem.

[LarryLegend]

They couldve found a better way to give Gwen depth,post-mortem.

Indeed.

[Herr Logan]

I was pissed at JMS before his last story arc concluded. When they brought Spider-kids into this, I automatically thought it was a desperate measure in trying to retain interest. It seems logical that JMS has a twist planned, but I always hedge my bets in everything. If I assume the worst, the only surprise can be a positive turnout. Thus, I'm pretty sure at this point that at the very least, there will be some form of permanent damage to the respectibility of one of the "good" characters. If I'm proven wrong, then "the Amazing Spider-Man" has dodged a bullet. The power of negative thinking.

[Happenstance]

I do think its awful what they have done to Gwens character but inspite of that im still enjoying the arc and wont be stopping reading asm after it

[TheAdmiral]

I was pissed at JMS before his last story arc concluded. When they brought Spider-kids into this, I automatically thought it was a desperate measure in trying to retain interest. It seems logical that JMS has a twist planned, but I always hedge my bets in everything. If I assume the worst, the only surprise can be a positive turnout. Thus, I'm pretty sure at this point that at the very least, there will be some form of permanent damage to the respectibility of one of the "good" characters. If I'm proven wrong, then "the Amazing Spider-Man" has dodged a bullet. The power of negative thinking.



And here I was thinking you were just irate all the time. :D

[spideylover89]

They couldve found a better way to give Gwen depth,post-mortem.

Yeah but whats done is done. JMS will probably come through in the end anyway because a move like this could put a very large red mark on his career. I don't think he wants "pissed off a billion Gwen fans and got kicked in the nuts by Dragon and Shinlyle while writing ASM" on his resume`

[Herr Logan]

And here I was thinking you were just irate all the time. :D

You'd be thinking right. ;)

[Webhead38]

I like the general structure and themes of the story. The motivations are believable and the general layout of the reveal is done quite dramactically and paced very well. My only complaint is I wish it could have been done with different characters. The Gwen Stacy story is probably the most reworked and most revisited classic from the 70's. In short, please let the poor girl rest in peace!! Anyone who collected those issues as I did back in the early 70's are quite familiar with the motivations that drove Norman Osbourne to his final performance as the Goblin (or at least, should have been, before Marvel attempted a ridiculous reinvention in the 90's that, simply put, was very poor scripting). In my book, Norman is long dead and Gwen's death is a horrific cross Pete must carry to remind him of the sacrifices that come with being Spiderman. It's a recurring theme that has shaped the value system of our hero. You can't go back to such painful moments and reinvent that crisis and expect Peter Parker to come out as anything other than a basket case.

Applying this story to Gwen Stacy only serves to color her character in a way that diminishes her death as little more than the inevitable byproduct of falling prey to the temptations of power and wealth which also undermines her relationship with Peter. How could you possibly feel the same way about her if she truly commited these deeds? That's the point. In this day and age where every other television subplot involves the one dimensional horny house wife/girlfriend mentality it would be nice to think Gwen Stacy actually died an innocent victim, instead of a manipulating whore. I think most of us who enjoyed Gwen for who she was in the 70's would agree, her memory should be respected, not disgraced.

[Raykel]

Applying this story to Gwen Stacy only serves to color her character in a way that diminishes her death as little more than the inevitable byproduct of falling prey to the temptations of power and wealth which also undermines her relationship with Peter. How could you possibly feel the same way about her if she truly commited these deeds? That's the point. In this day and age where every other television subplot involves the one dimensional horny house wife/girlfriend mentality it would be nice to think Gwen Stacy actually died an innocent victim, instead of a manipulating whore. I think most of us who enjoyed Gwen for who she was in the 70's would agree, her memory should be respected, not disgraced.


I just don't see how she is a "manipulative whore." She made one mistake (albeit a serious one) and she's trying to take responsibility for it as best she can and would mostly likely have come clean that night with Peter had the Goblin not intervened.

What I like about this storyline is that it makes it NOT All. About. Peter. I mean, it's his book, so yeah, it is all about him. But seeing a new dimension, where the Goblin's revenge isn't just about Peter but about Gwen getting in the way of what he wants, that strikes me as a more powerful story. And with Peter's personality, it's not like this will suddenly aleviate all his guilt over that traumatic event in his life. Look at Uncle Ben's death: he has always overplayed his responsibility for that. He will for Gwen, too. It's just nice to know that the Goblin's machinations don't always have Peter as the very episcenter.

[Dangerous]

Gwen could actually be mostly or fully vindicated here, but even if she is, MJ would most likely be compromised. If Gwen at the time of telling MJ the awful "truth" was mnetally programmed or under duress or under false impressions or a clone or a life model decoy or whatever, that still leaves MJ keeping her disgusting betrayal a secret from Peter all these years. Unforgivable. If a friend of mine that had been my rival over a potential lover had won the rivalry and then cheated on that lover, you can bet I'd tell her, whether or not the cheating bastard wanted me to keep it a secret. MJ and Gwen have both disgusted me in this arc, whereas Peter's nauseating actions (or declarations of intended actions) are true to form and those I would expect-- noble but stupid.


I agree about MJ her character has been wrecked also, ..hm gotta love JMS!
It's just that the damage to Gwen is so huge that this has been overlooked.
What I wanna know is what knuckleheads voted in the #512 thread that MJ betraying peter all these years would make them closer? Yeah that figures!

Even if its mind control Osborn still defiled Gwen who is dear to any true Spiderfans hearts, plus to make it worse he'll then have us believe that Gwen would not respect Peter enough to terminate the pregnancy and instead expect him to raise them. to JMS i say BLOW-
This arc is BS.

[Herr Logan]

I think I may have screwed up in that poll. Did the poll ask if what she was doing right now (as in, MJ coming forward and admitting to her spineless doormat of a husband that she had been a deceitful ***** for years about Gwen being a cheating slut with a murdering scumbag) or if she was right to have kept it a secret in the first place? I think I was so blinded by rage at the time I picked the wrong option. If this abomination had to happen at all (which it never, ever did), I'd prefer she came forward (rather than us knowing that she knew and knowing she didn't tell Peter). JMS either has to completely undo every last shred of bad characterization of Gwen and MJ, or he's definitely permanently damaged something.

Sweet Chocolate Christ, I mean, looking at interviews done with Mark Millar on his current run on "Wolverine," he mentions that he doesn't want to get bogged down in continuity, but what he really means is he doesn't need to go back and retell stories. I have a certain level of confidence that he'd be one of the most respectful and on-target writers on that book in many, many years, just as he was being pretty respectful on "Marvel Knights Spider-Man." Instead of demonizing a supporting cast member-- past or present-- he's going to put Wolverine under villainous mind control (yeah, it's been done plenty already, but that means it's not unrealistic) and have him do what we already know he's capable of doing: throwing down with anyone and everyone. That's the kind of writer I want sticking around for the long haul, not someone who rehashes other characters' trite themes and forces it on a continuity that has plenty of its own themes that fit perfectly, rewrites history and then tries to mitigate the true severity of Gwen's failure to act decently. I know JMS has spent a chunk of his life wandering around homeless and observing people some strata of society might deem scum, but I could sooner forgive a drug user for being a destructive and useless moron than I could a person who cheated on his or her lover in a committed relationship. This is Spider-Man, God dammit. He doesn't believe in moral gray areas very often, and so it's a bit insulting to change something fundamental in the continuity with something people of lesser standards consider to be morally gray that is far more personal than matters of life and death and crime and legitimate means. He's got little or no integrity when it comes to Spider-Man.

[shinlyle]

Yeah but whats done is done. JMS will probably come through in the end anyway because a move like this could put a very large red mark on his career. I don't think he wants "pissed off a billion Gwen fans and got kicked in the nuts by Dragon and Shinlyle while writing ASM" on his resume`


Oh...believe me....
*shines steel-toed boots*
...he definitely doesn't want a nad-kick from these boots!!!! :mad:

[Dangerous]

I think I may have screwed up in that poll. Did the poll ask if what she was doing right now (as in, MJ coming forward and admitting to her spineless doormat of a husband that she had been a deceitful ***** for years about Gwen being a cheating slut with a murdering scumbag) or if she was right to have kept it a secret in the first place? I think I was so blinded by rage at the time I picked the wrong option. If this abomination had to happen at all (which it never, ever did), I'd prefer she came forward (rather than us knowing that she knew and knowing she didn't tell Peter). JMS either has to completely undo every last shred of bad characterization of Gwen and MJ, or he's definitely permanently damaged something.


I think the poll was basically saying -Do you think MJ finally telling Peter about Gwen & Osborn (betraying him for years) will bring them closer, quite a stupid suggestion.


Sweet Chocolate Christ, I mean, looking at interviews done with Mark Millar on his current run on "Wolverine," he mentions that he doesn't want to get bogged down in continuity, but what he really means is he doesn't need to go back and retell stories. I have a certain level of confidence that he'd be one of the most respectful and on-target writers on that book in many, many years, just as he was being pretty respectful on "Marvel Knights Spider-Man."


Yeah, Millar is the only decent one of the three of 'em when it comes to continuity.
He visits spiderfan.org to make sure any villains hes gonna use for their current status etc, (take note Jenkins!)
Jenkins can write kick-ass, gritty, & funny Spidey storys, even tho the current arc on SSM is less than great, heh, but his continuity knoledge is a little shaky to say the least.

JMS gave meaning and depth to MJ again and explored Peter's purpose in a unique way, even if some found it borring I liked it.
But what he's done now, is wrong.
He has completly disrespected what has gone before him and pissed all over the memory of Gwen.
This current arc is badly written and unrealistic.

But what can we do? b-itch about it forever and be pissed off and hope the nxt writer who comes on ASM undoes the damage that JMS has done by saying that, that Gwen was a clone of Hamiltons...heres hoping.


He's got little or no integrity when it comes to Spider-Man.
True.

[spideylover89]

Oh...believe me....
*shines steel-toed boots*
...he definitely doesn't want a nad-kick from these boots!!!! :mad:

haha :D

[Abaddon]

Maybe Gwen had a thrresome with Harry and Norman.:eek:

[Chris Wallace]

To think, this was only the beginning.

[Joker]

Chris, honestly why did you bump this ancient thread of yours??

Are you just trying to open up a can of worms again??

[Dangerous]

Damn this thread is two years old.

[shinlyle]

Wow...a blast from the past.

I used to be so...violent and angry.

Good to see nothing's changed!!


On topic (somewhat), I'm not so much angry at him anymore as I am dissappointed. He CAN write a great Spidey, he just doesn't. We've seen how hit and miss his stories are. It's upsetting.

I think everyone's anger has been directed towards Joe Q, at this point.

[Cyclops]

As it should be. After all, a writer can only do so much with his EIC breathing down his neck pushing these retarded ideas on him.

"Ooh! Ooh! Now give him organic webshooters! Gwen had a baby with Norman! No! TWO! Yeah, this is great stuff! Okayyy..... make him sick! Put him in a coccoon! Wrist spikes! I am awesome! Nowwwww....... make him roll over! Play dead! Fetch a stick!"

[shinlyle]

As it should be. After all, a writer can only do so much with his EIC breathing down his neck pushing these retarded ideas on him.

"Ooh! Ooh! Now give him organic webshooters! Gwen had a baby with Norman! No! TWO! Yeah, this is great stuff! Okayyy..... make him sick! Put him in a coccoon! Wrist spikes! I am awesome! Nowwwww....... make him roll over! Play dead! Fetch a stick!"

HA! I needed that laugh, man. Thanks!

[Dangerous]

The way I see it SSM is good, and apart from that I am happy to pin all my hopes and dreams on the teaming of Loeb/JSC in 07 right now.

[Chris Wallace]

As it should be. After all, a writer can only do so much with his EIC breathing down his neck pushing these retarded ideas on him.

"Ooh! Ooh! Now give him organic webshooters! Gwen had a baby with Norman! No! TWO! Yeah, this is great stuff! Okayyy..... make him sick! Put him in a coccoon! Wrist spikes! I am awesome! Nowwwww....... make him roll over! Play dead! Fetch a stick!"
That is the funniest post you have made yet.

[HoratioRome]

As it should be. After all, a writer can only do so much with his EIC breathing down his neck pushing these retarded ideas on him.

"Ooh! Ooh! Now give him organic webshooters! Gwen had a baby with Norman! No! TWO! Yeah, this is great stuff! Okayyy..... make him sick! Put him in a coccoon! Wrist spikes! I am awesome! Nowwwww....... make him roll over! Play dead! Fetch a stick!"

:woot: :woot:

[Jack O'Lantern]

On topic (somewhat), I'm not so much angry at him anymore as I am dissappointed. He CAN write a great Spidey, he just doesn't. We've seen how hit and miss his stories are. It's upsetting.

I think everyone's anger has been directed towards Joe Q, at this point.

Totally. :up: JMS has proven to be a very capable writer...when he isnt turning out bull**** like The Other. Its Joe's job to tell him "Uh...no. Try again." He hasnt been doing that. He's aiding and abetting.

[Kool-Aid]

I read Sins Past again a few weeks ago and during the parts where he was trying to explain that and why they were Normans kids felt rushed and not smooth like it did up to that. I felt bad for Pete when Sarah tried to explain why he wasn't the dad, then they focused on his face(or mask) after she said because they never.... . I was just like damn poor Pete.:(

[SpideyInATree]

I'm pissed at JMS for writing The Other and crapping on his own totem storyline.

And moving Supreme Power from MAX to Marvel Knights.

Other than that he's a pretty good writer and wrote some pretty awesome Spidey tales. Too bad his run is tarnished by a couple storylines with most of the Spider-fan community.

I mean, we COULD have Howard Mackie. :oldrazz:

[Cyclops]

But Howard suffered from the same things JMS suffers from now - editorial mandate.

[Cullen]

Wait a second. There was a thread bashing JMS I missed? How could that have happened?

[Cyclops]

Probably because this thread is older than you.

[vegeta21]

I don't mind JMS, but I think he's running out of steam. I'd like to see someone else give a go on ASM.

[Dragon]

I read Sins Past again a few weeks ago and during the parts where he was trying to explain that and why they were Normans kids felt rushed and not smooth like it did up to that. I felt bad for Pete when Sarah tried to explain why he wasn't the dad, then they focused on his face(or mask) after she said because they never.... . I was just like damn poor Pete.:(

It's because it was rushed. JMS was writing the story with the intent being that they were indeed Peter's kids. Joe Q weighed in saying that Peter having kids would "age" him (That's a serious pet peeve for Joe Q. Kids age Peter. Marriage ages Peter. Divorce ages Peter. He need s to focus on what crappy stories do to Peter). So they had to scramble to come up with a new solution- that being the ridiuclous idea of Norman being the father.

[Orko Is King]

I don't mind JMS, but I thik he's running out of steam. I'd like to see someone else give a go on ASM.

Yah, he started out quite nicely, but it's time for a change methinks. Really, how long does it take to say all you need to say about a character?

[Cullen]

Probably because this thread is older than you.It's over 33 years old? Whoa!:oldrazz:

[Cyclops]

You know that on the Internet, the only age that matters is your join date age. :p

We don't care that you're almost a middle-aged man who's probably going to start losing his hair any day now if he hasn't already. :p :D

[Cullen]

You know that on the Internet, the only age that matters is your join date age. :p

We don't care that you're almost a middle-aged man who's probably going to start losing his hair any day now if he hasn't already. :p :DJeez, man, below the belt. And all too accurate. :yay:

[Arach Knight]

I mean, we COULD have Howard Mackie. :oldrazz:

If you search the web, there is actually an interview where Howard Mackie states that the clone saga was originally only going to run for something like 5 or 6 issues. He said that the EIC at the time, was rushing Mackie and his team, and forcing a lot of outside ideas on them. That is what led to the two year disaster that we got. Flashing foward to now, I think about how Quesada and JMS openly admit that the more drastic changes to Spidey, have been warped takes on JMS's original plots, as carried out by Joe Q himself. It seems to me that the Editor In Chief more often than not, is responsibe for more grief in the comics room, than most fans acknowlede. I was reading up on Jim Shooter, and as great as he was, even he had controversy apparently. He used to have some poilcy where no Marvel characters could be gay. Apparently it caused quite the uproar. I believe somebody already said it, but most fan angst these days is directed all at Joe Quesada...mine included.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

As it should be. After all, a writer can only do so much with his EIC breathing down his neck pushing these retarded ideas on him.

"Ooh! Ooh! Now give him organic webshooters! Gwen had a baby with Norman! No! TWO! Yeah, this is great stuff! Okayyy..... make him sick! Put him in a coccoon! Wrist spikes! I am awesome! Nowwwww....... make him roll over! Play dead! Fetch a stick!"
Hellarious!

I only hate JMS because he sucks, he's pompous about sucking and he's ruined the Amazing Spider-Man and Gwen Stacy for an entire generation of readers.

[Happenstance]

Just found a quote saying that I wouldnt be dropping ASM after this, I see that didnt last long :p

[Ultimate Kaine]

Wouldn't it be awesome if someone dressed up as Spider-Man went to a con where JMS is appearing and tried to beat him up, then someone 'caught' it on cameraphone and posted it on YouTube? Yes. That would. Be awesome.

[Venomfan]

Wouldn't it be awesome if someone dressed up as Spider-Man went to a con where JMS is appearing and tried to beat him up, then someone 'caught' it on cameraphone and posted it on YouTube? Yes. That would. Be awesome.
and joe q.......how i loathe him....

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Picturing that brought a tear of joy to my eye. Thank you, Ultimate Kaine.


Unfortunatly, it also made me wonder where I could pick up a Spidey costume.

[KingOfDreams]

I don't know how much of many of the more controversial things he's done are truly his decision or have some sort of editorial hand in it...but he's still the writer and I don't like the direction he's taken ASM and FF.

[Ultimate Kaine]

I'm sure once it's all said and done and JMS has moved on, there will be finger pointing. But we can all say with certainty that as a team, JMS & JQ have reamed Spider-Man.

JMS.
JQ.
The Spider-Man Ream Team!

[Chris Wallace]

Picturing that brought a tear of joy to my eye. Thank you, Ultimate Kaine.


Unfortunatly, it also made me wonder where I could pick up a Spidey costume.
Whatever you do, don't unmask. :):ninja:

[SpideyInATree]

If you search the web, there is actually an interview where Howard Mackie states that the clone saga was originally only going to run for something like 5 or 6 issues. He said that the EIC at the time, was rushing Mackie and his team, and forcing a lot of outside ideas on them. That is what led to the two year disaster that we got. Flashing foward to now, I think about how Quesada and JMS openly admit that the more drastic changes to Spidey, have been warped takes on JMS's original plots, as carried out by Joe Q himself. It seems to me that the Editor In Chief more often than not, is responsibe for more grief in the comics room, than most fans acknowlede. I was reading up on Jim Shooter, and as great as he was, even he had controversy apparently. He used to have some poilcy where no Marvel characters could be gay. Apparently it caused quite the uproar. I believe somebody already said it, but most fan angst these days is directed all at Joe Quesada...mine included.

I'm a Clone Saga freak. I've read the entire 32 part Life of Reilly article where it chronicles the entire clone saga and Tom F'n Defalco himself comments on the state of Marvel during that time period.

People complain about Quesada but during that time at Marvel people would be begging for a Quesada to be editor in chief.

[Bullseye]

I've enjoyed JMS run on ASM. I think it's been quite good. I can't say the exact same about JMS run on The FF, it's quality is good but lacking.

And I can't wait to see what JMS has planned for Spidey in ASM as a result of the unmasking in Civil War.