What makes America right?

[Doomed_hero]

It seems funny to me that Constantine and a few other Brits run their mouths about how America isn't the greatest nation. Hey genius, you would all be speaking German and be under the rule of a Nazi dictator if not for the good ol U S of A coming over to bail out your whole freakin continent. Your whole country, and France as well, has never been able to stand up to jack squat without us coming to your aid. Don't sit there drinking you frickin tea and eatin biscuits and run your pathetic mouth about the country that saved your behinds time and time again.



ummm first off Constantine is not british. And second, this is what I hate most in this country, this feeling of we are better then everyone else. First British held off the Nazis long before we showed up, and today they are allies of are. And next you want to attack the French? Well if it was not for there underground intellgence, D-Day and many other attacks would not have been possible. So get this arrogant additude that we are always right and can do everything without help from others. Its this arrogance that caused Veitnam and Iraq.

[Matt]

Matt I agree with you on almost every issue but here I absolutely have to disagree.

Many things are subjective in this world, many issues are nuanced and complex but murder is not one of them. Hijacking four planes with innocent people aboard and smashing them into the economic center of the world where thousands of innocent people visit daily and the Pentagon is wrong. There can be no justification for it. I would also say that the same is true of so called "collateral Damage". There is no differance between innocent civilians in America and innocent civilians in Iraq. I'm not comparing our troops or military tactics with those of the terrorists but rather the ideology that says that its acceptable.

The irony lies in the perceptions. We are villified daily by these extremists just as we villify them daily. Many people don't differentiate between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden and Ahmed who works at the bazar. The same is true of many in the middle east, they don't differentiate between our leaders like George W. Bush or John Kerry and Joe who works at the mall. Its a simplistic view held to constantly raise and hold the fear level. You scare enough people long enough you can get them to agree to anything as long as you convince them that they will be safer.

To them there is justification. We have been occupying their holy lands for years. Do I agree with their tactics of attacking civilians? No. Do I think the sons of a *****es should burn? Absolutely...but in their minds, they are absolutely right.

[Matt]

It seems funny to me that Constantine and a few other Brits run their mouths about how America isn't the greatest nation. Hey genius, you would all be speaking German and be under the rule of a Nazi dictator if not for the good ol U S of A coming over to bail out your whole freakin continent. Your whole country, and France as well, has never been able to stand up to jack squat without us coming to your aid. Don't sit there drinking you frickin tea and eatin biscuits and run your pathetic mouth about the country that saved your behinds time and time again.

Learn your historic facts boy...Hitler would've lost regardless of if we intervened because he was no military leader. He was foolish enough to fight a double front. England and Russia alongside the French resistance would've beaten Hitler.

And don't trash the English, if it wasn't for the RAF, there is a good chance Hitler would've defeated England before the Soviet Union intervened if the RAF didn't defend London as bravely if they did. Otherwise England would've fallen, Russia would've fallen and we would've had to fight a war across the ocean with no support, a war we could not fight, there is a good chance Germany would've developed the nuclear bomb before us, and we would have lost. Don't be so foolish to trash England. They were the ones brave enough to fight the war for 3 years before we got off our asses.

[ahw]

Learn your historic facts boy...Hitler would've lost regardless of if we intervened because he was no military leader. He was foolish enough to fight a double front. England and Russia alongside the French resistance would've beaten Hitler.

And don't trash the English, if it wasn't for the RAF, there is a good chance Hitler would've defeated England before the Soviet Union intervened if the RAF didn't defend London as bravely if they did. Otherwise England would've fallen, Russia would've fallen and we would've had to fight a war across the ocean with no support, a war we could not fight, there is a good chance Germany would've developed the nuclear bomb before us, and we would have lost. Don't be so foolish to trash England. They were the ones brave enough to fight the war for 3 years before we got off our asses.

Actually, Russia would not have fallen. In fact it was Russia who defeated the Nazi's before the rest of the Allies, Why you ask? because they had the most devastating weapon against the german troops, the russian winter.

[Corinthian™]

Actually, Russia would not have fallen. In fact it was Russia who defeated the Nazi's before the rest of the Allies, Why you ask? because they had the most devastating weapon against the german troops, the russian winter.
weapon of double edge... poor guys... they lost all of what they were harvesting... another reson why Socialism didn't work..

[Matt]

Actually, Russia would not have fallen. In fact it was Russia who defeated the Nazi's before the rest of the Allies, Why you ask? because they had the most devastating weapon against the german troops, the russian winter.

If Hitler had taken Britian it would've taken time to stabilze it and actually invade Russia, the Russian winter would've passed and Hitler would've marched through Russia.

[ahw]

If Hitler had taken Britian it would've taken time to stabilze it and actually invade Russia, the Russian winter would've passed and Hitler would've marched through Russia.
Might have been, however the russians calculated in this game. They didn't put up much of resistance instead they retreated abd burned their crop fields. They let the germans into the country and waited till a large portion of them died of hunger, diseases and so on. Heck it was so cold even the oil and gas inside the machines froze. All the Russians had to do later on was push the wretched german troops back tp berlin. Quite a cool tactic if you think about it.

[Matt]

Might have been, however the russians calculated in this game. They didn't put up much of resistance instead they retreated abd burned their crop fields. They let the germans into the country and waited till a large portion of them died of hunger, diseases and so on. Heck it was so cold even the oil and gas inside the machines froze. All the Russians had to do later on was push the wretched german troops back tp berlin. Quite a cool tactic if you think about it.

But it only worked because it was the Russian winter...it would not have worked if it were the Russian summer.

[ahw]

But it only worked because it was the Russian winter...it would not have worked if it were the Russian summer.
true ... actually it's kinda weird dontcha agree? everytime some shmuck attacks Russia they attack in the winter, I mean Napoleon failed that way too.

[TLATOANI]

USA is the evil in this world

[C. Lee]

USA is the evil in this world
You have a one track mind there don'tcha.....now excuse me while I go kick a puppy.

[The Riddler]

Why are we the good guys? What is your answer to this. What makes us the good guys as a general rule?

what are you talking about.

we aren't the good guys..

we're just the big bully.

[bluejake01]

*murder- the unlawful killing of one human by another with premeditated malice.

*kill-to put to death.

a murder is usually unprovoked, and is committed with the express desire to kill. so yes, the event on september the 11th was murder in that the terrorists purposefully killed thousands of innocent people that had nothing to do with them or their cause simply to make a point.

killing, on the other hand is simply ending a life. like, execution is killing but not murder. what soldiers do is not murder because they are not their to simply kill people(and when they do it is enemy soldiers, when they kill innocents it is not on purpose and therefore not murder,) they are there to do a job. they are not allowed to fire unless fired upon.

so murder is killing, but killing is not murder.
kind of like squares are rectangles, but rectangles aren't squares.

And yet if you kill someone on accident you are still going to go to jail. Who gets held accountable for the millions of innocent people that the US has killed over the years and written off as "collateral damage"? Those statistics were actually people, that had families and did no wrong.

Now, as for moral relativism, what we do when we wage war is an act that we know will end in innocent death. There is no way to avoid it. We know absolutely we will kill innocent people, so should we not be held to a standard that ensures that when we wage war it is a matter of self deffence, and self deffence only? Over the last 60 years we have, as a nation began to alter our foriegn policy, twist it, subvert it. We now wage war for political gain, or to stop what may at some point become a threat. If a war is not waged for self deffence, then the innocent people lost by our actions were murdered.

[maxwell's demon]

skip it.

for some people moral relativism only applies when they can use it against others.

[bluejake01]

skip it.

for some people moral relativism only applies when they can use it against others.

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where ALL people considered all sides of an argument, with an open mind, before forming an opinion?

[BaleGal]

That would be Utopia and sadly, that's not the world that we live in.

[Nitehawk013]

War is done when it is necessary. I don't care if it is for self-defense or if it is done as a pre-emptive strike. War is not this altogether evil thing. War is a good thing when it defeats and destroys evil. Granted you may live in a grey world of relativism, I do not. 99% of things are clear. Black and white. WWII was necessary, Gulf war was necessary, this war was not only necessary but it should have been taken care of years ago. At the end of the day I don't know how people opposed to Pres. Bush and this war can't think straight and say, "We have rid the world of Saddam, his sons, 75% of AlQuida, and freed millions from bloodthirsty dictators. It has been worth every penny and lost soldier." It seems pretty easy to see it was worth it to me.

[Constantine J.]

War is done when it is necessary. I don't care if it is for self-defense or if it is done as a pre-emptive strike.

It's not all grey, it's pretty clear to me that advocating a war that does not affect your daily life or put a high number of yoyr loved ones at risk everyday is higly dubious.

[Nitehawk013]

It's not all grey, it's pretty clear to me that advocating a war that does not affect your daily life or put a high number of yoyr loved ones at risk everyday is higly dubious.


First I don't want to wait for people like Saddam and his regime to affect my daily life the way 9/11 did. I would just as soon say we go hammer them into the dirt first. Second, he did put my family and loved ones at risk everyday. Whether you can admit it or not, Saddam and his regime hated us and wanted us dead. He in fact did make it clear he was willing to finance the assasination of our president. He was dangerous and did want to hurt America. We are the "great Satan" to him remember. As long as he was free, he was able to put a plan into action to kill me and my family. Why is that so hard for you to understand? How is it not better that we went and got him out of power before he was able to do worse to us than 9/11?

[Constantine J.]

First I don't want to wait for people like Saddam and his regime to affect my daily life the way 9/11 did. I would just as soon say we go hammer them into the dirt first. Second, he did put my family and loved ones at risk everyday.


how?

[cryptic name]

USA is the evil in this world

that's incorrect

[bluejake01]

that's incorrect

No, it's an opinion, and one held by much of the world.

[Alonsovich]

USA is the evil in this world

Yeah, as if there weren't 1.2 billion nuts that want to impose islam to the rest of the world...:rolleyes:

[Computron2005]

Yup all muslims are like that, :rolleyes:

Way to reply at a dumbass comment with another dumbass comment

[Alonsovich]

Yup all muslims are like that, :rolleyes:

Way to reply at a dumbass comment with another dumbass comment

I went to Morocco last summer. Supposedly a moderated country. You'll learn those type of things when they throw stones at your bus... :o

[Unthinkable]

I went to Morocco last summer. Supposedly a moderated country. You'll learn those type of things when they throw stones at your bus... :o

Of course, those stone throwers represent the whole country.
:rolleyes:

[Computron2005]

I am a Muslim, I don't want to kill you. I guess that makes one less out of 1.2 billion.

[Alonsovich]

Of course, those stone throwers represent the whole country.
:rolleyes:

500.000 inmigrants and 10 bombs in trains here in Madrid give proof of the contrary. 7 centuries of invasion of Spain by them give proof of the contrary. Not a single century with wars between us since the 8th century give proof of the contrary. Their constant claim of spanish territories give proof of the contrary... :o

[The Kingpin]

Answer to topic: because America is the dominant country, and nobody that matters whats to challenge us.

[Boy Wonder '04]

I am a Muslim, I don't want to kill you. I guess that makes one less out of 1.2 billion.

I posted this earlier...
A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

[Computron2005]

And what did the Spanish do with all non Catholics? or the American Indians? or the African slaves? At one point in time people all over the world have to just let go and forgive each other. We all have blood on our hands and our blood on someone elses hands.

[Unthinkable]

500.000 inmigrants and 10 bombs in trains here in Madrid give proof of the contrary. 7 centuries of invasion of Spain by them give proof of the contrary. Not a single century with wars between us since the 8th century give proof of the contrary. Their constant claim of spanish territories give proof of the contrary... :o

1) Did the bombs get planted by only Morrocans?

2) What? You said seven centuries of invasion, and then you said "not a single century with wars between us since the 8th century."

3) When was the last time... And where would those territories be? And are you still talking about Morroco or North African in general? :confused:

[Computron2005]

Answer to topic: America represents good values and the people are good at heart, sometimes their overzealousness and eagerness is taken for aggresiveness and leads to tension in foreign policy. Americans do have a little superiority complex at times, but that is understandable as the US is the world power. My only concern is that Americans sometimes don't educate themselves about matters enough and always think their way is the right way, matters and wars that have raged for 1000s of years need a little more attention and investigation before formulating opinions or courses of action.

[Alonsovich]

And what did the Spanish do with all non Catholics? or the American Indians? or the African slaves? At one point in time people all over the world have to just let go and forgive each other. We all have blood on our hands and our blood on someone elses hands.

Do you actually think they don't hate us for that? Thank you very much for the peace offer, but I'm fed up of seeing this people attack us at all time. Or they adapt, or they go out of here back to Morocco. Did you know that the train bombers here were all from Morocco? No other nationalities, just Morocco... :o

[Unthinkable]

Do you actually think they don't hate us for that? Thank you very much for the peace offer, but I'm fed up of seeing this people attack us at all time. Or they adapt, or they go out of here back to Morocco. Did you know that the train bombers here were all from Morocco? No other nationalities, just Morocco... :o

Really, wow, did not know that. But either way more hate isn't going to help anyone.

Back on topic, the answer I believe is that the dominating country is us right now, and we can be damned arrogant.

[Computron2005]

But you still think ALL the Muslims in the WHOLE world are like that?

[Boy Wonder '04]

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done Judge a religion by the conduct of its people then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. [/b]One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah.[/b] Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.

[Alonsovich]

1) Did the bombs get planted by only Morrocans?

2) What? You said seven centuries of invasion, and then you said "not a single century with wars between us since the 8th century."

3) When was the last time... And where would those territories be? And are you still talking about Morroco or North African in general? :confused:

1) Yes.

2) They invaded us in the 8th century except for a small territory in the north. From there until we kicked them out there were constant battles until the ending of the 15th century. Since then, they have made revolutions and and wars claiming territories that belong us by international law.

3) 2 years ago. The Leila island conflict. They're claiming also Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands. There have been other wars this century. The Ifni war in the 50s (my father fought there BTW) and the Sahara conflict where the government of Morocco is ethnically cleaning the Sahara region from the Saharauis just for their support to the Spaniards...

[Alonsovich]

But you still think ALL the Muslims in the WHOLE world are like that?

It's suspiciously similar to what's happening in other countries. Oh and the name with which Bin Laden refers to Spain is Al-Andalus, which was the name of Spain under Arab domination. We're a prioritary country for Al-Qaeda. If you didn't know this week a commando was arrested. They were going to blast the Superior Court in 2 weeks with a truck with 1000 pounds of explosives... :o

[Unthinkable]

Well put Boy Wonder, though it is sad that a select few have undermined the very base of Islam by acting so violently, though many wars has been fought under the banner of religion.

[Computron2005]

It's suspiciously similar to what's happening in other countries... :o

Well, dang, I don't think anything I will ever say will change your mind. All I can say is that I hope my ACTIONS as A Muslim and other moderate Muslims around the world can make you see a different light.

[Doomed_hero]

the amount of ignorance on these boards is amazing. You talk about Muslims track record, well every reilgion has a flawed track record and extremist. You can't blame all who worship just cause of a few idiots. That is just ignorance at its core.

[cryptic name]

No, it's an opinion, and one held by much of the world.

much of the world is incorrect

[Victor Von Doom]

Correct is a relative term

[Corinthian™]

much of the world is incorrect
like Doomy said here... correct is a relative term...

for most of the people USA is evil... why?

becasue thanks to the USA they are getting poor.. so they have to go to the USA to work and bring some dollars to their people... some of them are shot when they are spotted... some of them die on the dessert or on the river... some of them make it and try to make a living by a crappy wage...

Don't you think that they have a good reason to call the USA evil?

[The Democrat]

I posted this earlier...
A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?
No and infact they are just as ignorant and "evil" as the beliefs that say all Americans want to take over islamic countries and spit on Allah.

[suicideking15]

to answer your initial question, might makes right and weve got that. Dont **** with the US

[maxwell's demon]

:(. that kind of mentality makes me sad.

[Phaser]

To qoute a thug in Max Payne, how the world talks to the U.S -

"Hey, you got the gun, you make the rules."

:D

[Nitehawk013]

Well, you know we pretty much feed and finance the entire world thereby preventing them all from dying. If they do not respect us for that then screw them. I would rather them have a healthy fear of our power than nothing at all. They aren't going to respect us nomatter what. They are too busy resenting us b/c we are better than them. I say, It's better to be feared sometimes than respected. And a real healthy dose of fear will keep them in line.

[bluejake01]

Well, you know we pretty much feed and finance the entire world thereby preventing them all from dying. If they do not respect us for that then screw them. I would rather them have a healthy fear of our power than nothing at all. They aren't going to respect us nomatter what. They are too busy resenting us b/c we are better than them. I say, It's better to be feared sometimes than respected. And a real healthy dose of fear will keep them in line.

That's the exact attitude Rome had. That is the attitude that will lead to the crumble of the United States...study your history a little and drop the "biggest c ock on the walk" routine before you fall victim to the very thinking that our founding fathers were opposed to. It's ignorance and little dick syndrome that you are demonstrating...not valor or strength.

[Constantine J.]

Well, you know we pretty much feed and finance the entire world thereby preventing them all from dying.


I would love to hear this one.

If they do not respect us for that then screw them. I would rather them have a healthy fear of our power than nothing at all.

Healthy Fear? while this mat apply to situations of rogue states, this can hardly be applicable to the whole world.



They aren't going to respect us nomatter what. They are too busy resenting us b/c we are better than them. I say, It's better to be feared sometimes than respected. And a real healthy dose of fear will keep them in line.


and here we come to the reality of the matter, How exactly is the U.S. "better" than the rest of the world? in what kind of a skewed universe is that argument even applicable?
your views are disturbing in their disregard for the rest of the planet. In the end this is exactly what has put the U.S. in such a place were it's credibility has dwindled down to nothing in the world.
the U.S. screams and cries for those dead in 9-11 yet shrugs off the death of tens of thousands in Iraq as "necessary", By no means am I saying that this is the case with all of the U.S. but sadly it is indicative of most of it.
why? or how? can you so easily write off the slaughter of people all around the world with such ease, and chalk it up to "healthy fear" of the U.S.'s power?
I hope that one day you realize that the U.S. is far from this beacon to the rest of the world, as I have said before, other countries while not so dominant of world markets have shown a higher standard of living that the U.S. has, not only that, but more racial and religious tolerance so unless you have really done some research on the rest of the world i suggest you do before speaking about the U.S. being "Better" than anyone.
In part, however, the mentality displayed by you is carachteristic of all empires, so it's not so uncommon. but it is that exact line of thinking that has brought the greatest empires down before the U.S., keep in mind it's relatively a young empire, and already nations align in protest against it, and it's image around the world becomes one of oppression.
that's how it starts.

[cryptic name]

like Doomy said here... correct is a relative term...

for most of the people USA is evil... why?

becasue thanks to the USA they are getting poor.. so they have to go to the USA to work and bring some dollars to their people... some of them are shot when they are spotted... some of them die on the dessert or on the river... some of them make it and try to make a living by a crappy wage...

Don't you think that they have a good reason to call the USA evil?


no. if they attempted to come here leagally they would not be shot and wouldn't die in the river or desert. and you have to expect a crappy wage if you have no green card or proof of citizenship, not to mention a college education. if they want to blame us for their problems, that's too bad.

[strike-hard]

We defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

Easy enough for you to understand?

If you don't agree with us than you belong on the otherside, alongside the evil and burn in hell with the rest of them.

[Doomed_hero]

You can not blindly state that we are simply Good. We are not always right, and if you can't see that, you have your blinders on.

[Nitehawk013]

We defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

Easy enough for you to understand?

If you don't agree with us than you belong on the otherside, alongside the evil and burn in hell with the rest of them.


Precisely. Although the problem is that those who would argue against this are the moral relativity bunch. To them there is no "evil" or "good", only what makes them feel happy. Thats the problem. If there is no evil or good then we should just let everything go. Don't stop the spread of governments that would crush peoples rights, don't eliminate rulers who would love to harm us. Lets just all sit around a freakin campfire and sing get-a-long songs while holding hands.

[akut401]

We defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

Easy enough for you to understand?

If you don't agree with us than you belong on the otherside, alongside the evil and burn in hell with the rest of them.

define "us".

[strike-hard]

define "us".

I'm sorry but isn't the title of the thread called "What Makes America Right?"

Me being an American, who do you think I was referring too?

Russia? China?

"Us"

Me, and every other American who believes that we are the ones that are trying to make a difference in the world by ridding it of evil organizations, governments and dictators.

Lets just all sit around a freakin campfire and sing get-a-long songs while holding hands.

I wonder what America would be like if one of those people ever took office. I'd imagine we'd be taken over the very next day they took office by an army of 12 people equipped with slingshots and plastic forks.

[Doomed_hero]

Strike -Hard, what would you do as President. I would really like to know in this great wisdom of yours, what would you do?

[Jan Irisi]

Who are "we" to decide what is evil and what is not? In some, no, many situations, we are not wanted in other countries. Other countries do not see our way as best for them. What gives us the right to decide for them? What gives us the right to spead our values and ideals worldwide? What gives us the right to bully and throw our weight around? "You will adopt our democratic ideals and if you don't we will make you adopt them, because we are right and you are too ignorant to know any better."


Who gave us this power to make decisions? Where did we get this right?

[strike-hard]

Strike -Hard, what would you do as President. I would really like to know in this great wisdom of yours, what would you do?

If your talking about war than...

Finish the job in Iraq.

Protect and care for the the American people, also defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

If ever I felt that we are being threatened than I would do what is necessary to protect our people.

[Doomed_hero]

HOw do you propose to Finish the job in Iraq

[Constantine J.]

If your talking about war than...

Finish the job in Iraq.

Protect and care for the the American people, also defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

If ever I felt that we are being threatened than I would do what is necessary to protect our people.


he means, how would you do it? and please don't answer

"by Protecting and caring for the the American people, also defending human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators. "

[strike-hard]

So wait, you guys want me to draw out maps, describe how I would strategically position troops and destroy the insurgents in Iraq?

Gimme a break. Your arguments are getting worse and worse, by every post.

Let me ask you, if you take the time to answer the question in detail and spend your time doing so, as will I.

[Constantine J.]

So wait, you guys want me to draw out maps, describe how I would strategically position troops and destroy the insurgents in Iraq?


Nope, merely outline your plan rather than just

"To protect....blah....blah..blah..."

Gimme a break. Your arguments are becoming dull.

Let me ask you, if you take the time to answer the question in detail and spend your time doing so, as will I.

yeah, about what I expected.

[strike-hard]

let me ask you, if you take the time to answer the question in detail and spend your time doing so, as will I.

yeah, about what I expected.

Tables are turned and you don't like it.

Yup, just what I expected to.

[Computron2005]

What about the job in Afghanistan?

[akut401]

I'm sorry but isn't the title of the thread called "What Makes America Right?"

Me being an American, who do you think I was referring too?

Russia? China?

"Us"

Me, and every other American who believes that we are the ones that are trying to make a difference in the world by ridding it of evil organizations, governments and dictators.




If you don't agree with us than you belong on the otherside, alongside the evil and burn in hell with the rest of them.

So, to sum up, if anybody doesn't agree with you, they should burn in hell?

[strike-hard]

We defend human freedom against evil organizations, governments and dictators.

If you don't agree with us than you belong on the otherside, alongside the evil and burn in hell with the rest of them.

So, to sum up, if anybody doesn't agree with you, they should burn in hell?

If they don't agree that evil organizations, governments and dictactors should be taken out, than yes they should burn in hell.

Are you a terrorist sympathizer akut401?

[Outsiderzedge]

So, to sum up, if anybody doesn't agree with you, they should burn in hell?

That's what the man said. Are you illiterate. :cool:

[Computron2005]

I think everyone agrees on taking out evil dictators, organizations etc. its just people differ how you should do it.

And what about Afghanistan? No reply on that yet. What about that dem there guy name Osamar Bin Laden? oh and what about dem dose Madrassas? Oh and what about the KKK? Isn't that an evil organization in round abouts in dem herr US of the A?

[strike-hard]

I think everyone agrees on taking out evil dictators, organizations etc. its just people differ how you should do it.

And what about Afghanistan? No reply on that yet. What about that dem there guy name Osamar Bin Laden? oh and what about dem dose Madrassas? Oh and what about the KKK? Isn't that an evil organization in round abouts in dem herr US of the A?

What would you like me to answer about Afganistan? Please explain. Are we not looking for Osama, has the military forgotten about him? Are we not trying? Please explain.

The KKK, a white supremacist group, I am not too familair with their organization but I'm pretty sure that's what they are. Are they threatning the safety of thousands of people? Are they talking about going building nuclear weapons? Damn, didn't think so.

I''ll agree, they aren't a great group of people and they need to be dealt with. You know, their is something called priorities. As far as I know the local authorities deal with them accordingly.

[akut401]

If they don't agree that evil organizations, governments and dictactors should be taken out, than yes they should burn in hell.

Are you a terrorist sympathizer akut401?

nope. But the term "evil" has become so cloudy these days, i really dont know what to think anymore....

[Sarge]

The KKK, a white supremacist group, I am not too familair with their organization but I'm pretty sure that's what they are. Are they threatning the safety of thousands of people? Are they talking about going building nuclear weapons? Damn, didn't think so.

Not just blacks. hispanics, asians, jews, catholics, or anyone else they consider foreign. They like using violence when people use bigger words than them. You would enjoy their company.

[akut401]

That's what the man said. Are you illiterate. :cool:

nope, because if i was, i would ask questions without question marks.

[Computron2005]

So black people and minorities aren't priorities, my question about the madrasses you didn't answer and you're absolutely right, you have no clue what to do in Afghanistan. That is why in a few years its going to blow up in Ameica's face again, as sad as that is. Afghanistan and Iraq need proper educational centers, rather than puppet democracies. As long as the poor people see their only salvation in sending their children to the madrassas, terrorim won't end. Terrorism is an ideology, and to destroy it you first have to destroy the source of the ideology. Namely the madrassas. There aren't as many troops patrolling Afghani borders and on the hunt for al- queda members because of the diversion in Iraq. The military isn't able to try its hardest to find Osama when clearly they aren't using enough personnel. And If the US is going to be all high and mighty and take out evil organizations, why not deal with the hate organizations such as the KKK that are IN THE USA FIRST?!

[Sarge]

So black people and minorities aren't priorities, my question about the madrasses you didn't answer and you're absolutely right, you have no clue what to do in Afghanistan. That is why in a few years its going to blow up in Ameica's face again, as sad as that is. Afghanistan and Iraq need proper educational centers, rather than puppet democracies. As long as the poor people see their only salvation in sending their children to the madrassas, terrorim won't end. Terrorism is an ideology, and to destroy it you first have to destroy the source of the ideology. Namely the madrassas. There aren't as many troops patrolling Afghani borders and on the hunt for al- queda members because of the diversion in Iraq. The military isn't able to try its hardest to find Osama when clearly they aren't using enough personnel. And If the US is going to be all high and mighty and take out evil organizations, why not deal with the hate organizations such as the KKK that are IN THE USA FIRST?!actually I was trying to make that point as well, but you articulated it much better than I could have, thanks.

[Outsiderzedge]

nope, because if i was, i would ask questions without question marks.

That's just poor grammar. It's not a sign of illiteracy.

Good try though.

[strike-hard]

So you guys get conquered in one area and move onto the other.

Groovy

You would enjoy their company.

By the way, I am not white.

Moron.

Racist have always been around, and our best fight against the KKK is through education and trying to change their minds to understand that all races are equal.

Let me ask you genius, how do you suggest we get rid of a group like the KKK? :)

[akut401]

That's just poor grammar. It's not a sign of illiteracy.

Good try though.

and now were arguing about grammar.

thats ok though, according to you, im going to hell for not agreeing with another man's opinions.

[Outsiderzedge]

and now were arguing about grammar.

thats ok though, according to you, im going to hell for not agreeing with another man's opinions.

huh?

[akut401]

huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by akut401
So, to sum up, if anybody doesn't agree with you, they should burn in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsiderzedge
That's what the man said. Are you illiterate.

[Outsiderzedge]

Quote:
Originally Posted by akut401
So, to sum up, if anybody doesn't agree with you, they should burn in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsiderzedge
That's what the man said. Are you illiterate.

Clearing up what another person said is the same as agreeing with that person?

You suck at this game.

[strike-hard]

and now were arguing about grammar.

thats ok though, according to you, im going to hell for not agreeing with another man's opinions.

Well obviously.

If you believe evil dictactors, governments and organizations should be in power, why should you go to heaven?

[akut401]

Clearing up what another person said is the same as agreeing with that person?

You suck at this game.

first of all, what game?

and secondly, if youre telling me that wasnt an agreement, then why were you in the discussion at all?

[bluejake01]

If they don't agree that evil organizations, governments and dictactors should be taken out, than yes they should burn in hell.

?

It is the half assed, sloppy, illogical, dishonest, costly, violent, murderous way in which it is done that I disagree with.

[akut401]

Well obviously.

If you believe evil dictactors, governments and organizations should be in power, why should you go to heaven?

i apologize, i thought you told me to go to hell for having a different opinion, not for believing certain people shouldnt be in power...

also,i dont believe some should be in power, but im pretty sure you and i have would have a different idea of how to go about it....

[Jan Irisi]

It is the half assed, sloppy, illogical, dishonest, costly, violent, murderous way in which it is done that I disagree with.


:up:

[maxwell's demon]

strike- why do you see enemies everywhere?

why- if we disagree with you- do you immediately label us "terrorist sympathizers"?

is it possible that we both basically want the same thing, and just have different ways we'd each want to go about getting there?

do you really think we're all evil? really?

[strike-hard]

do you really think we're all evil? really?

Not all.

Some...

[maxwell's demon]

really? you think some posters on these boards are evil? which ones?

[Doomed_hero]

Ya I wanna know to.

[strike-hard]

Spider Jerusalem

:)

[maxwell's demon]

he's the only one? and why? and are you serious?

[strike-hard]

he's the only one? and why? and are you serious?

Go see his post in the ass-kicking thread and see why...

I do not remember the names of all the users here yet but when I come across another, i'll be sure to fill you in.

[maxwell's demon]

thanks! so- you are really serious?


wait- so it's this quote?: "Im an american, but sadly I would have to say that the USA needs a good kick in the ass."

[strike-hard]

thanks! so- you are really serious?


wait- so it's this quote?: "Im an american, but sadly I would have to say that the USA needs a good kick in the ass."

He's a Traitor.

But so is John Kerry.....

Are you voting for him? (http://www.kerrylied.com/otherdocs/SBVT-AD.mpg)

[maxwell's demon]

actually no i'm not.

and you really think his statment makes him a traitor? do you understand why he said it?

are you serious?

[Constantine J.]

Tables are turned and you don't like it.

Yup, just what I expected to.


what the hell are you babbling about?
no really, help me out.....what the hell are you talking about?

[14k london spider]

speaking out against a war you don't believe in and hoping to bring back troops whose lives you feel are being wasted is not treacherous it's the most patriotic thing you can do in a democratic society. Calling anyone any and all disenters 'traitors' is what's unpatriotic.

[14k london spider]

Strike-hard that makes YOU a traitor.

[strike-hard]

Strike-hard that makes YOU a traitor.

Good one :)



I fully support the war and the efforts of the US and its allies of ridding this world of evil Organizations, Governments and Dictators.

If me feeling that way makes me a traitor than so be it....

[Comic Book Boy]

^But what about Bin Laden....I am all for ridding the world of bad dictators....But Bush lied about why we were going to Iraq...And Korea is a MUCH bigger threat than Iraq EVER was....Korea actually has REAL WMD's.

[Comic Book Boy]

edit

[strike-hard]

...And Korea is a MUCH bigger threat than Iraq EVER was....Korea actually has REAL WMD's.

Are we not attempting to resolve the situation in N. Korea?

Everyone knows that a war against N. Korea would result in the loss of thousands and thousands of lives, so we are looking for more peaceful ways to resolve the situation. War is always the last alternative.

To avoid war, we must try and talk with Pyongyang and persuade him into ending his nuclear program and hopefully we will succeed.

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em to hell!!

[Outsiderzedge]

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em all to hell!!

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

[strike-hard]

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

:)

I was just referring to N. Korea in the post.

[Computron2005]

Umm, you still haven't answered my question about the madrassas in Afghhanistan, Strike-hard. BTW I have a suggestion for your custom title. "Shock and Awe" It'
ll be awesome do it! Seriously tho:

I agree with you about the KKK plan half way, we do have to educate people to change their mind. But I also think symbols of the KKK such as the confederate flag should be removed. What if a state adopted the swastika? And the US should start monitoring members of NRA. They already monitor people who are brown so why not members of the NRA?

Please answer my questions and points I have answered yours, why hasn't the US cracked down on Saudi funded Madrassas?

[maxwell's demon]

Good one :)



I fully support the war and the efforts of the US and its allies of ridding this world of evil Organizations, Governments and Dictators.

If me feeling that way makes me a traitor than so be it....
???

feeling that way isn't what makes you unpatriotic!

calling anyone who dissents a "traitor" is what makes you unpatriotic.

it does, however- make you very nationalistic.

seriously man- you're idea of what america IS and what makes a patriot is flat out wrong. And in this case, it's not a matter of my opinion versus your opinion. It's a matter of history versus you're own idea- and the real world versus the idea of the world someone has put into your head.


(im sorry to repeat these quotes for those of you who've been on these boards long enough to see them- but i thnk Fred should read them. and maybe we should read them again)

Edward R. Murrow:
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.

and echoed again by
Dwight D. Eisenhower:
May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.

G. K. Chesterton:
My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober.

John F. Kennedy:
Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive

James Madison:
A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the
Constitution

President Theodore Roosevelt:
The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad
conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal,
able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full
liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it
is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to
praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American
citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be
no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the
President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but
the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is
even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant,
about him than about any one else."

Thomas Jefferson:
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.


and finally, here are two we should all think about, every time we come on these boards-

Noam Chomsky:
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.

Will Durant:
Continue to express your dissent and your needs, but remember to remain civilized, for you will sorely miss civilization if it is sacrified in the turbulence of change.
------------------

now- im sure you're going to want to come back at me, us, with the old Samuel Johnson quote- but before you do- please realize that the type of patriotism he was referring to is exactly the type of patriotism you are asking us to follow.

Or,
as Henry David Thoreau said:
Yet some can be patriotic who have no self-respect, and sacrifice the greater to the less. They love the soil which makes their graves, but have no sympathy with the spirit which may still animate their clay. Patriotism is a maggot in their heads.


please, Strike, start being a good american. we need as many as we can get.

[Alonsovich]

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

That wouldn' be a tragedy seeing how many SOBs there are everywhere right now... :o

[bluejake01]

Are we not attempting to resolve the situation in N. Korea?

Everyone knows that a war against N. Korea would result in the loss of thousands and thousands of lives, so we are looking for more peaceful ways to resolve the situation. War is always the last alternative.

To avoid war, we must try and talk with Pyongyang and persuade him into ending his nuclear program and hopefully we will succeed.

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em to hell!!

So everything you just said applies to Iraq as well. The fact is, Bush didn't follow proper procedure, didn't follow due process. The war IS costing thousands of lives, and Billions of our dollars that would better be spent improving our pitiful public education system (which you are obviously a product of, seeing as you have no debating skills, no concept of global, or american history and really no value to add to any discussion) or our failing healthcare system. War must be a responsible action, taken only when there is no other choice, and when we are in immediate, real, right ****ing now danger.

[Predator Farmer]

American is a son of a b*ahem*

[strike-hard]

We are taking the first step towards ridding the world of evil.

So for Americans to be against our efforts makes them a good American?

Please, since you used the word good american, please explain to me what your idea of that is......

Is it someone like Kerry who betrays his own country in a time of war?

Someone who believes that fighting against evil is not a good cause?

Are you saying that taking out an evil dictator such as Saddam not the right thing to do?

[Constantine J.]

How did Kerry Betray America?

[strike-hard]

How did Kerry Betray America?
http://www.kerrylied.com/otherdocs/SBVT-AD.mpg

Traitor Scum.

[Constantine J.]

No, no child, specifically. explain it to me. that movie means nothing......

you explain to me why he's a traitor.......

[strike-hard]

No, no child, specifically. explain it to me. that movie means nothing.............Sure it means nothing to somebody who wants to see it that way......

Why even bother with you anymore?

It's useless.

[Constantine J.]

so explain it......what do YOU think.
movies mean nothing......else I can post "going up river" you know?

edit:
so you admit you have no opinion or way of expressing any ideas, and when asked for your thoughts you can only say it's useless?

so sad......

[maxwell's demon]

We are taking the first step towards ridding the world of evil.

So for Americans to be against our efforts makes them a good American?

Please, since you used the word good american, please explain to me what your idea of that is......

Is it someone like Kerry who betrays his own country in a time of war?

Someone who believes that fighting against evil is not a good cause?

Are you saying that taking out an evil dictator such as Saddam not the right thing to do?

you obviously need to re-read those quotes.

especially if you're saying that about Kerry.

and especially isf you can't understand that what i, and some are others- are doing when we respnd as we do- is precisely what you ask of us- we are trying to fight evil.

and especially if you're still using such a trap-argument as the 'saddam would sitll be in power' routine. don't you see its more complicated than that?
OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.

but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.
agian- we didn't care NEARLY enough about the iraqi people, about their culture and their way of living, before we went in.
had we, we wouldnt have thought they were just going to fall at our feet and embrace our idea of american democracy. We wouldnt have hired companies who brought in foreign workers because it required less security, becasue it was more "cost effective".
we wouldnt have placed more emphasis on protecting the oil fields than on protecting the people.
in short, we wouldn't have attacked until we understood what form of government WOULD work there, adn we wouldnt be seeing NEARLY as many iraqis fighting desparately against us now.

Do i think good things will not come of this? of course good will come of this- in the long run. but had we been more dedicated to the Iraqis- and less self interested (although obviously there has to be SOME element of self interest)- the end result would have been better for all of us.



im serious. please be a better american. i f you need help that's fine. but we can't afford any more people who dont care about america. we're here to help. that's all i'm saying.

[strike-hard]

you obviously need to re-read those quotes.

especially if you're saying that about Kerry.

and especially isf you can't understand that what i, and some are others- are doing when we respnd as we do- is precisely what you ask of us- we are trying to fight evil.

and especially if you're still using such a trap-argument as the 'saddam would sitll be in power' routine. don't you see its more complicated than that?
OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.

but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.
agian- we didn't care NEARLY enough about the iraqi people, about their culture and their way of living, before we went in.
had we, we wouldnt have thought they were just going to fall at our feet and embrace our idea of american democracy. We wouldnt have hired companies who brought in foreign workers because it required less security, becasue it was more "cost effective".
we wouldnt have placed more emphasis on protecting the oil fields than on protecting the people.
in short, we wouldn't have attacked until we understood what form of government WOULD work there, adn we wouldnt be seeing NEARLY as many iraqis fighting desparately against us now.

Do i think good things will not come of this? of course good will come of this- in the long run. but had we been more dedicated to the Iraqis- and less self interested (although obviously there has to be SOME element of self interest)- the end result would have been better for all of us.



im serious. please be a better american. i f you need help that's fine. but we can't afford any more people who dont care about america. we're here to help. that's all i'm saying.You asking me to be a good American, something I already am.

I don't agree with you on your views, so therefore you might think I am not.

Which is your opinion, and probably the the opinion all of the liberals.



OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.
but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.So here you talk about an evil dictator that shouldn't be in power.

Afterwards you talk about how we should take people out for the right reasons.

Isn't a country with an evil dictator with capabilities of building a large arsenal of weapons a right enough reason?

Now onto the right way....

We attempted to resolve the situation at first peacefully, did we not?

Talks didn't work.

Action is needed.

[Constantine J.]

Isn't a country with an evil dictator with capabilities of building a large arsenal of weapons a right enough reason?


did he...really?

[maxwell's demon]

you're missing the larger point and you've never responded to the earlier post.

this is not a matter of opinion.
do you still hold that people who question our governnment, who dissent, are traitors?
do you still hold that peopel on these boards are actually evil?
what did those quotes mean to you?

[strike-hard]

did he...really?
Even some of the people on your side believed he did.....

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


Toilet flush. :)

[Constantine J.]

you mean the quotes from the Intelligence report supplied by the administration right?

toilet flush.....

c'mon, say conquered, I miss it.

[strike-hard]

It's okay.

Your living in denial.




:)

Iraq, had weapons or capabale of getting them...

Hard to believe huh?

[maxwell's demon]

strike- why wont you respond?

[Constantine J.]

man, I ask you for your thoughts and you post the same quotes that you have been doing for the past week or so

I ask you to tell why Kerry is a traitor...same link from a the week past.

fine......



No, it is You who are living in the Nile!!!!

http://www.airchive.com/airline%20pics/HOUSTON/HOB-OLD%20CONCOURSE.jpg

CONCOURSE!!!!!

[strike-hard]

this is not a matter of opinion.

Again, it's your opinion, to both this post and the original question.


do you still hold that people who question our governnment, who dissent, are traitors?If they do not believe that over throwing an evil dictator (something most have agreed on) should be taken out for the safety and good of the world

Than yes, I think they are disloyal and traitors to America and the rest of the world.

Do we sit back and do nothing against an evil force in this world?

do you still hold that peopel on these boards are actually evil?See my response to your other question.

what did those quotes mean to you?They are what they are.

"Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive"

Agreed.

If people are fighting for a side that is evil and a growing threat to the world

Than it's obvious they are wrong, and we need to point it out to them.

If they continue to insist that fighting an evil force in the world is wrong, than they are evil just as they side they are taking.

[maxwell's demon]

do you believe in an ultimate truth or is it just one pserons opinion versus someone elses (or in this case, many others- including some of the founders of our country and many of its leaders and most pre-emininent thinkers)?

do you really think that this matter was as simple as taking out an evil dictator?
(ps- my computer couldnt play the kerry clip so im not sure what it said)

do you think its possible that there were other factors involved and maybe THAT is the reason people are dissenting?

you specifically addressed one quote out of many. for the rest- all you can say is "they are what they are"? is it possible that in those quotes lies not only the spirit that dirves many of the posters on these boards, but also the spirit of america?

how is anyone here fighting for the wrong side?

[bluejake01]

You asking me to be a good American, something I already am.

I don't agree with you on your views, so therefore you might think I am not.

Which is your opinion, and probably the the opinion all of the liberals.



This is REALLY damned funny coming from you. I am not a liberal *******...In fact I am and have always been a Republican. Bush ****ed up a LOT of things. He has violated our constitution, our ideals and our American way of life.

[strike-hard]

Bush ****ed up a LOT of things. He has violated our constitution, our ideals and our American way of life.We were attacked on 9/11

Way of life for Americans were changed.

We didn't feel as safe as we did on September 10th, and probably never will until the people that are threatning us are taken out.

Bush declares war on terrorism and goes after an evil dictator that people believed to be a growing threat and also on the people responsible for killing thousands of Americans, to ensure our safety and that it wouldn't happen again.

Please excuse me if I do not share your point of view on our President.

[bluejake01]

From start to finish the war in Iraq has been handled poorly. Bush circumvented due process, took liberties he simply did not have. He took a course of action that was irresponsible, and violates everything our founding fathers stood for. He has, time and time again, proven his inability to operate within the very foundation of our government's established code of conduct. What is so hard for you to understand? Not ONE DAMNED PERSON has said not even ONCE that Saddam Hussien was a fantastic chap. Even Bush Sr. knew this war was a foolish effort. The war on terror will not be won with bombs, but with brains.

[bluejake01]

Please excuse me if I do not share your point of view on our President.

Here's a thought...why don't you do the same thing...excuse people that don't agree with you, rather than insulting them?

[strike-hard]

We were attacked on 9/11

Way of life for Americans were changed.

We didn't feel as safe as we did on September 10th, and probably never will until the people that are threatning us are taken out.

Bush declares war on terrorism and goes after an evil dictator that people believed to be a growing threat and also on the people responsible for killing thousands of Americans, to ensure our safety and that it wouldn't happen again.

Please excuse me if I do not share your point of view on our President.Again.

The war on Iraq.

We took out Saddam.

We are working on weeding out the insurgents so we can begin with the rebuilding process so that the Iraqi people will have a more prosperous future.

War is never perfect.

We try to make the best of it.

[bluejake01]

We were attacked on 9/11

Way of life for Americans were changed.

We didn't feel as safe as we did on September 10th, and probably never will until the people that are threatning us are taken out.

Bush declares war on terrorism and goes after an evil dictator that people believed to be a growing threat and also on the people responsible for killing thousands of Americans, to ensure our safety and that it wouldn't happen again.


Few things...

I thought we weren't supposed to let 9/11 change our way of life...that's what Bush said anyway.

We are no more or less safe than we were pre 9/11. If you think we are, you are dellusional.

War on terror. How does one declare war on an emotion?

Do you really think for one instant that giving up constitutional rights and freedoms is really the right answer? Our history is filled with people that have died for our freedom. It is a dis-service to their actions to allow GWBush to strip away freedom for the illusion of safety. It dishonors the memory of the victims of terrorism to allow their deaths to take away constitutional rights. If you think about that would mean they died and it took away freedom. I wouldn't want my death, or a loved ones death to be responsible for such a gut churning reality.

It is not the result that Bush says he is trying to accomplish that I take issue with. It is his actions that I firmly believe are counter productive to those goals that I am upset with. I don't have the answers, unfortunately neither do Bush or Kerry.

[bluejake01]

Again.

The war on Iraq.

We took out Saddam.

We are working on weeding out the insurgents so we can begin with the rebuilding process so that the Iraqi people will have a more prosperous future.

War is never perfect.

We try to make the best of it.

Honestly...WTF do I care if the Iraqi people have a bright future if my own is so bleak? Why do I care if they are free if my in my own backyard there are people suffering and having their freedom limited or challenged in the name of "safety"? Why is it right to murder people in order to free them? The Iraqi people need to stand up for themselves and decide what they want. If they really wanted Saddam gone they should have done it. War must be fought as a last ditch resort when not taking action at that given momment would mean death for our people.

I find it funny that you would use the "more prosperous future" angle when it suits you, and then turn a blind eye to the harm we have actually done to them. If you cared about them as a people, perhaps you would bother to hear both sides of their plight. They are getting it in the ass, coming and going. They were ****ed before, and now we are ****ing them all over again. They are now torn, between wanting to be rid of Saddam, and not knowing where their next meal will come from, when they will have power and sanitation. They don't know when and where they will lose their next loved one, and if it is our bullets and bombs that will be responsible, or theirs.

[strike-hard]

Few things...

I thought we weren't supposed to let 9/11 change our way of life...that's what Bush said anyway.
True.

"Weren't" is the key word.

But it has, ask the people.

We are no more or less safe than we were pre 9/11. If you think we are, you are dellusional.
No, we haven't beefed up security at airports or other such targets for terrorist.


War on terror. How does one declare war on an emotion?
We are waging a war on terrorist that have threatened our society and continue to do so, is that wrong?

We are fighting a threat so that we never feel the actions of the threat.

I don't have the answers, unfortunately neither do Bush or Kerry.
So you just like to complain about how things are handled yet you have no answers for the problems yourself.

Good one.

[Computron2005]

Umm, you still haven't answered my question about the madrassas in Afghhanistan, Strike-hard. BTW I have a suggestion for your custom title. "Shock and Awe" It'
ll be awesome do it! Seriously tho:

I agree with you about the KKK plan half way, we do have to educate people to change their mind. But I also think symbols of the KKK such as the confederate flag should be removed. What if a state adopted the swastika? And the US should start monitoring members of NRA. They already monitor people who are brown so why not members of the NRA?

Please answer my questions and points I have answered yours, why hasn't the US cracked down on Saudi funded Madrassas?

Wow, this is like the third time I brought up the madrassas point, strike-hard and you have chosen to ignore it again, since it was a counter argument to one of your statements, how about you make an acknowledgement at least. I like how you have just been conveniently ignoring me.

[strike-hard]

Honestly...WTF do I care if the Iraqi people have a bright future if my own is so bleak? Why do I care if they are free if my in my own backyard there are people suffering and having their freedom limited or challenged in the name of "safety"? Why is it right to murder people in order to free them? The Iraqi people need to stand up for themselves and decide what they want. If they really wanted Saddam gone they should have done it. War must be fought as a last ditch resort when not taking action at that given momment would mean death for our people.

I find it funny that you would use the "more prosperous future" angle when it suits you, and then turn a blind eye to the harm we have actually done to them. If you cared about them as a people, perhaps you would bother to hear both sides of their plight. They are getting it in the ass, coming and going. They were ****ed before, and now we are ****ing them all over again. They are now torn, between wanting to be rid of Saddam, and not knowing where their next meal will come from, when they will have power and sanitation. They don't know when and where they will lose their next loved one, and if it is our bullets and bombs that will be responsible, or theirs.Besides fighting the War in Iraq for the benefit of their people, haven't I and many other people have said that Iraq was a threat, a country lead by an evil man that either had, or was attempting to obtain a large arsenal of weapons, which might include WMD's.

Should we sit back and let them become an even bigger threat and hope he never takes action?

[bluejake01]

No, we haven't beefed up security at airports or other such targets for terrorist.




Actually security measures at the Airport are pointless. You see they hijacked the ****ing planes with BOX CUTTERS. Do you think they would be able to do that anymore? No...We had adequate security at the Airport. The terrorists took advantage of the belief that we all had that behaving for a hijacker would get us out alive. We don't have that belief anymore...they wouldn't be able to pull a 9/11 style attack again. The cuurrent Airport security measures do not help, and they violate our bill of rights. You do know what "illegal search and siezure" means right?


You have no answers yourself, you regurgitate what you have been told by your narrow minded red-neck daddy. You have no original thoughts, nor do you have a firm grasp of history or our constitution.

[strike-hard]

Actually security measures at the Airport are pointless. You see they hijacked the ****ing planes with BOX CUTTERS. Do you think they would be able to do that anymore? No...We had adequate security at the Airport. The terrorists took advantage of the belief that we all had that behaving for a hijacker would get us out alive. We don't have that belief anymore...they wouldn't be able to pull a 9/11 style attack again. The cuurrent Airport security measures do not help, and they violate our bill of rights. You do know what "illegal search and siezure" means right?
So your saying that all the beefed up'd security at the airports is all for show? That it does no good?

You have no answers yourself, you regurgitate what you have been told by your narrow minded red-neck daddy. You have no original thoughts, nor do you have a firm grasp of history or our constitution.
Just what I was expecting....

complain.....complain.....complain...

Yet you have no answers....

Go watch Fahrenheit 911 some more....

Michael Moore is almost the same way.....

[bluejake01]

Should we sit back and let them become an even bigger threat and hope he never takes action?

You do understand that we had an extremely tight leash on Iraq right? Sanctions, no fly zones, routine missle strikes and bombings? Iraq was contained. Even Bush Sr. knew that a war with Iraq was a waste of money, lives and time.

[strike-hard]

You do understand that we had an extremely tight leash on Iraq right? Sanctions, no fly zones, routine missle strikes and bombings? Iraq was contained. Even Bush Sr. knew that a war with Iraq was a waste of money, lives and time.What's this?

Where Bush Got His Marching Orders

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that .... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002


"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003Why didn't they feel the same way as you Bluejake?

[Computron2005]

Wow come on strike hard, hows about you answer my questions?

[bluejake01]

So your saying that all the beefed up'd security at the airports is all for show? That it does no good?


Just what I was expecting....

complain.....complain.....complain...

Yet you have no answers....

Go watch Fahrenheit 911 some more....

Michael Moore is almost the same way.....

Yup...the beefed up security is pointless.

BTW...that is a pointless statement. You see, first of all...I hate Michael Moore. Second, I am a Republican. Third of all, I form my own opinions by seeking facts and studying American History.

[bluejake01]

What's this?


Why don't these people don't feel the same way as you Bluejake?

Actually they do. You do know that we have been taking action on Iraq for years. Routine missle strikes, bombings and military action when appropriate. That is far less costly than an all out war that in the end will produce similar results.

Oh and as for why they wouldn't feel the same way I do? Well you see, they are Democrats...I am a Republican. ****wit.

[strike-hard]

I form my own opinions by seeking facts and studying American History.
Afterall of that studying and seeking facts that you say you do and still no answers......

But when thing we know is that you love to complain.

Good one. :)

[bluejake01]

Afterall of that studying and seeking facts that you say you do and still no answers......

But when thing we know is that you love to complain.

Good one. :)


Oh how cute...you don't have an intelligent response so you repeat some one liner that you think is verily clever.

[Computron2005]

Afterall of that studying and seeking facts that you say you do and still no answers......

But when thing we know is that you love to complain.

Good one. :)

strike-hard, I guess only you of all people can see the truth, you know what I don't even think America is right. How about just YOU are right? I don't know why we all don't come to our senses and make you president, oh wait why not God? :)

[strike-hard]

Oh how cute...you don't have an intelligent response so you repeat some one liner that you think is verily clever.Cute huh?

I like it when you complain, it's nice.

You Rag on both sides

you complain.

When asked what should be done.....

You reply..."uhhh....uhhhh....I dunno"

I have laid the facts out for you.

It's up to you to accept the truth.

[maxwell's demon]

don't be a hypocrite, strike.

you've been picking and choosing what deserves your considered responses to all along.

[Corinthian™]

*ahem*

strangly enough, when you say insurgent you think of bad people... but to me the first thing that comes to my mind is liberation from oppresors.... not saying that USA is the oppresor... just that it comes to my mind every time I hear that word... and I think I'm not the only one here...

It might be perhaps that here, the ones that stood against the evil spanish empire were the insurgents..

Strange thing how a word has different meanings to the people....

Sorry to bother the course of the conversation... carry on

[bored]

Cute huh?

I like it when you complain, it's nice.

You Rag on both sides

you complain.

When asked what should be done.....

You reply..."uhhh....uhhhh....I dunno"

I have laid the facts out for you.

It's up to you to accept the truth.

actually, i think he's countered your ideas quite well.

[The Spawn]

We have bigger guns...that no one else is allowed to have.

[terry78]

Man, this thread is older than Bush's foreign policy. I'll be here all week.

[Memphis Slim]

Very nice, you didn't answer the question. What gives America the right to police the world? Why do we hold the moral high ground?

It shouldn't be this hard to answer. If we can invade countries at will then there must be a reason. Saddam Hussein was a bad man. Why though do we have the right to make the decision on whether he stayed or left? The question isn't this so don't answer it I'm not intrested in it. I'm interested in the question of: What makes America right?


Why do you keep telling people who answer your questions, the way they see it, that they didn't answer your question??? They answered! Just say you didn't like the answer they gave.

You obviously have an opinion about this and in your mind, you think you have the correct answer.

So just spit it out, son.
http://fumettidicarta.interfree.it/Fumetti/Comics/Ultimates_Testu/NickFury.jpg

[Mr Sparkle]

Why do you keep telling people who answer your questions, the way they see it, that they didn't answer your question??? They answered! Just say you didn't like the answer they gave.

You obviously have an opinion about this and in your mind, you think you have the correct answer.

So just spit it out, son.
http://fumettidicarta.interfree.it/Fumetti/Comics/Ultimates_Testu/NickFury.jpg


NO irony here whatsoever.

walk along.

[Mr. Walters]

What gives America the right to police the world?

I don't know, why don't you ask a citizen of Cuba if we had the right to police the world in 1898.

Or ask a French citizen from 1918 if he was happy the US got involved in that "European War."

Better yet, ask a holocaust survivor if they were pleased the US policed the world in 1945.

Ask the Germans in western Germany if they were happy to have us, and not the Soviets in the backyards.*

The Kuwaitis were pleased that the US liberated them from Saddam.*

The South Koreans appreciated US intervention in 1950*

Other than the Somalians and the Vietnamese* most people have gladly granted the US the right to police the world.

*All these events are post WWII and are therefore policing actions of the United Nations and not of the United States.

[Kritish]

Me.

You've got AIDS, therefore anything you say is from the devil!:cmad:

[Caliber]

America isn't better than anyone else. America just hides its true side and makes itself look better by looking kind to those it chooses. Plus america picks its fight when it comes to dealing with an issue.

[Memphis Slim]

I don't know, why don't you ask a citizen of Cuba if we had the right to police the world in 1898.

Or ask a French citizen from 1918 if he was happy the US got involved in that "European War."

Better yet, ask a holocaust survivor if they were pleased the US policed the world in 1945.

Ask the Germans in western Germany if they were happy to have us, and not the Soviets in the backyards.*

The Kuwaitis were pleased that the US liberated them from Saddam.*

The South Koreans appreciated US intervention in 1950*

Other than the Somalians and the Vietnamese* most people have gladly granted the US the right to police the world.

*All these events are post WWII and are therefore policing actions of the United Nations and not of the United States.


Ask those people in Taiwan, too.

[heypapajinx]

we've learned how to clone blue eyed blonde babies.
and that's all you need to be right.:o

[Guhndoi]

Asia. It's to the right of Asia.

[Parker Wayne]

This should be moved to politics.

[Franklin Richards]

Nukes. Lots and lots of nukes.


:cap: :cap: :cap: