Animals Are Not Ours To Wear

[Venice]

http://www.brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/5/cunningplan.jpg

Regards,
jag
You know, for someones whos seems like an advocate for neutrality, you sure do love stirring the pot.

[doc ock rules!]

I already displayed the common cause in my first post. And sometimes force is the best option, especially to people who are so sheltered they can't think outside their comfort zone.

Maybe you should find an article from an unbiased news source or online book to post? I remember buying a book in the Everglades that talked about how using the skins of endangered wildlife is wrong. People may be able to read the posts without automatically thinking "Oh, this is a biased, radical site."

P.S.- I advise you to be a bit more respective of other people's opinions. If everyone was ridiculed for their own opinion, we'd be living in communist China.

P.S.S.- Posters, give Venice a second chance. She means good, but I think she's gotten agitated because people have been bashing her a lot in this thread.

:)

[jaguarr]

You know, for someones whos seems like an advocate for neutrality, you sure do love stirring the pot.

Since when does advocating neutrality preclude one from taking an interest in something? And, besides, the best thing about neutrality from my viewpoint is that it affords choosing to support or tear down something as I see fit and suits my personal desires, needs, goals, ideals and philosophies. Stir the pot? Absolutely. Especially if it's full of beef stew.

jag

[Venice]

Since when does advocating neutrality preclude one from taking an interest in something? And, besides, the best thing about neutrality from my viewpoint is that it affords choosing to support or tear down something as I see fit and suits my personal desires, needs, goals, ideals and philosophies. Stir the pot? Absolutely. Especially if it's full of beef stew.

jag
Stir your beef stew on ignore then.

[jaguarr]

Stir your beef stew on ignore then.

So, your answer to everyone that you cannot convert to your way of thinking or sustain a worthwhile debate with is to put them on ignore? Ostriches hide their heads in the sand, but doing so does not take them out of danger...

jag

[dmcnx]

So, your answer to everyone that you cannot convert to your way of thinking or sustain a worthwhile debate with is to put them on ignore? Ostriches hide their heads in the sand, but doing so does not take them out of danger...

jag

I told you.Half of the Hype will be on ignore by December.

[Corinthian™]

KFC chickens are grown featherless and footless for easier manufacturing. They're also bound inside of a small cage, unable to move and force fed nutrients through a tube stuck down their throats.
well... at least we don't eat this:

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/040519.jpg


:o

[dmcnx]

well... at least we don't eat this:

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/040519.jpg


:o

I always found moogles sexy while playing FF for some reason:o:(:up:

[cryptic name]

Since when does advocating neutrality preclude one from taking an interest in something? And, besides, the best thing about neutrality from my viewpoint is that it affords choosing to support or tear down something as I see fit and suits my personal desires, needs, goals, ideals and philosophies. Stir the pot? Absolutely. Especially if it's full of beef stew.

jag

:up: as usual, jag.

[cryptic name]

Stir your beef stew on ignore then.

you sure love that ignore button. but here's a thought, why don't you try to have a calm conversation with someone who disagrees with you?
the reason some people think lowly of animal rights activists is because you're often very abrassive and your methods are extreme. for instance, if i buy a new leather jacket and someone runs up and pours red paint on me, im not going to sit and consider their point of view, im going to pop them in the jaw.

[Venice]

you sure love that ignore button. but here's a thought, why don't you try to have a calm conversation with someone who disagrees with you?
the reason some people think lowly of animal rights activists is because you're often very abrassive and your methods are extreme. for instance, if i buy a new leather jacket and someone runs up and pours red paint on me, im not going to sit and consider their point of view, im going to pop them in the jaw.
I'm always calm at first, try reading over the first page and understand what i'm talking about. I don't disagree with everyone, I just disagree with people who only come into this thread to purposely try to irritate or degrade me. We can have an adult conversation once you start acting like one. :)

[Zev]

Yeah, but your God isn't my God, nor is it the God of the majority of the people on this planet, so...

And there's a difference between ruling over something and boiling it alive. And why the hell does the God of the Bible always talk to himself in the plural? Let "us" make man in "our" image... I guess monotheism is a relative term. Although I know that the term used to describe God at the beginning of Genesis is "Elohim", being the plural of "Eloah", meaning "the Celestials". Whenever you read the name "God" in the modern english translations of the Old Testament, it should instead read "the Celestials". Probably aliens. ;)

Ever heard of the Trinity? It's more then just a hot chick in those Matrix movies...

And to respond to your first point, my religion says it's okay to eat animals. Yours may not (I assume you're a Buddhist, then?). To try to say I should not eat animals, however, is to try to force your religious beliefs on me. Last time I checked, that was wrong...

Oh, and "my God" is the God of the majority of people in this country. After all, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the same God... And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Buddhists believe that there's no God, just enlightenment? Looks like "my God" is the God of most of the planet...

[The Dark Guybrush]

like i said earlier, i live in an apt. building that's maybe five minutes away from the PETA building in Norfolk, VA... i drive by their 'base of operations' every morning on my way to work, on the way to the interstate. a few weeks ago, my friend and i noticed they were having renovation work done to the outside of their building- now, let me warn you, this is going to be a complete shocker: the construction workers were sitting on the scaffolds eating CHEESEBURGERS. for a group with their heads screwed on so tight about what's allowed and what's not, you'd think they'd have a problem with meat-eaters working on their foundation, their cornerstone. i didn't get it.

[Alonsovich]

I love meat... :up:

[CConn]

I love meat... :up: Beautifully put. :up:

[cryptic name]

Ever heard of the Trinity? It's more then just a hot chick in those Matrix movies...

And to respond to your first point, my religion says it's okay to eat animals. Yours may not (I assume you're a Buddhist, then?). To try to say I should not eat animals, however, is to try to force your religious beliefs on me. Last time I checked, that was wrong...

Oh, and "my God" is the God of the majority of people in this country. After all, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the same God... And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Buddhists believe that there's no God, just enlightenment? Looks like "my God" is the God of most of the planet...

:up:

[cryptic name]

I'm always calm at first, try reading over the first page and understand what i'm talking about. I don't disagree with everyone, I just disagree with people who only come into this thread to purposely try to irritate or degrade me. We can have an adult conversation once you start acting like one. :)

what reason do you have for ceasing to be calm? if you really think you're right, then you should remain collected and point out the faults in other arguments. i did read the entire thread before i posted and all i saw was you getting flustered because you weren't gaining any converts.
i for one don't think animals have rights, because in order to have rights one must be able to claim them. so until i see a few cows protesting outside of mcdonalds ill keep enjoying my burgers and wearing my leather jacket.

[Venice]

what reason do you have for ceasing to be calm? if you really think you're right, then you should remain collected and point out the faults in other arguments. i did read the entire thread before i posted and all i saw was you getting flustered because you weren't gaining any converts.
i for one don't think animals have rights, because in order to have rights one must be able to claim them. so until i see a few cows protesting outside of mcdonalds ill keep enjoying my burgers and wearing my leather jacket.
Tell me this is right.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=ans_web&Player=wm&speed=_med

Watch the entire thing, past Anna Nicole.

[The Dark Guybrush]

you know what's not right? you trying to shove your opinion down everyone else's throats.

[Venice]

What have I forced you to do?

[dmcnx]

What have I forced you to do?

Care.

[The Dark Guybrush]

eat a cheeseburger! do it!! no no.. do it!

[Venice]

Actually I don't know what i'm labeled as because I eat some dairy products...like cheese. :confused:

[The Dark Guybrush]

vegetarian.






cough

[Venice]

I used to eat meat, I don't miss it.

[The Dark Guybrush]

but does it miss you?

so very insensitive and unthoughtful. ;D

[Venice]

I think the most disgusting meat is steak, I tried it once a long time ago and it was really nasty. I'll never try it again.

[Paradoxium]

You know how much animals get killed in vegetables and wheat plantations?

http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

[Venice]

You know how much animals get killed in vegetables and wheat plantations?

http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
That's interesting and disturbing. :( Never really thought about that, but I doubt there is a miniscule piece of meat in everything I eat. ;)

[The Dark Guybrush]

holden caulfield isn't doing his job very well i take it.

[bluejake01]

I don't, I just think it's sick that we kill things for pleasure.

How is eating an animal and then wearing it's skin "killing for pleasure"?

[Orko Is King]

because pleather sucks! :up:

Pleather is for people who shop at Hot Topic.

[Alexia Dark]

How is eating an animal and then wearing it's skin "killing for pleasure"?
A very good point.

[The Dark Guybrush]

i find pleasure in wearing animal flesh. kidding of course.

[bluejake01]

I think the most disgusting meat is steak, I tried it once a long time ago and it was really nasty. I'll never try it again.

Good for you...Mind not forcing your stupid human hang-ups on the rest of us? I thank each and every animal that dies so that I may live...and you know what? When I die I will be burried in a goddess grove, the bacteria will eat me, and my cells will break down, ooze and secrete, making the soil fertile. Plants will grow, and animals will eat the plants, and my decendents will eat the the plants and animals. It's a cycle...it's natural...****ing deal with it human.

[Wiseman]

Am I still on ignore Venice? I miss our witty conversations

[bluejake01]

Looks like "my God" is the God of most of the planet...

33% actually, and it is a misconception to say that Yahweh/Jehova is the same god in those three religions. Yahweh was the ancient Hebrew God of war, and several religions rose that worshiped him "above all others". Christ spoke of the "one" god, and was obviously talking about a different entity than the Old Testament's vengeful, wrathful Yahweh. Historically the spread of those Middle Eastern religions was bloody, violent and imperialistic. History is written by the winners, and the Roman Catholics had tons of power, influence and force. They forced Christianity on the western world, which is why you find it so prevailent today. Still, the "world" is only 33% Christian, while America is hanging in at a whopping majority.

[Alexia Dark]

There was almost no one but Pagans for about 10 thousand years before Jesus came along. And it was nearly the entire world, not just a majority in a few counties.

[LORD_GALVATRON]

Destroyed companies? Like the stores? See, this proves how misleading you are with people. PETA has never engaged or supported violence or destruction of companies. Yes, they try to run them out of business by boycotts and such. But they don't advocate violence. They don't? What animal farm have you been living on?

[LORD_GALVATRON]

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html

http://maddox.xmission.com/animals.html

[bluejake01]

There was almost no one but Pagans for about 10 thousand years before Jesus came along. And it was nearly the entire world, not just a majority in a few counties.

I firmly believe Jesus of Nazareth was a pagan, in so much as one could have been growing up Jewish in the Middle East. He practiced magic, performed healings, engaged in sympathetic rituals and was an advocate for unconditional love and understanding. Great guy he was...

[bluejake01]

"Originally Posted by the defenders
Destroyed companies? Like the stores? See, this proves how misleading you are with people. PETA has never engaged or supported violence or destruction of companies. Yes, they try to run them out of business by boycotts and such. But they don't advocate violence."

Uhm....They do advocate and support violence and vandalism.

"It would be really great if all these fast-food outlets, slaughter houses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow -- Peta Spokesperson Bruce Friedrich."

"Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause. -- Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA."

[jaguarr]

I bet Jesus ate meat.

jag

[PurplePenisPrancer]

http://www.brendanloy.com/blog/images/deanandcat.jpg

[Alexia Dark]

I bet Jesus ate meat.

jag
Hey, you know that whole thing about eating the 'blood and body of Christ'? Hehe, canibalism...

[jaguarr]

http://www.brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/5/hahajesus.jpg

[cryptic name]

Tell me this is right.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=ans_web&Player=wm&speed=_med

Watch the entire thing, past Anna Nicole.

honestly, i really don't care

[The Dark Guybrush]

a dingo ate my baby

[Venice]

Good for you...Mind not forcing your stupid human hang-ups on the rest of us? I thank each and every animal that dies so that I may live...and you know what? When I die I will be burried in a goddess grove, the bacteria will eat me, and my cells will break down, ooze and secrete, making the soil fertile. Plants will grow, and animals will eat the plants, and my decendents will eat the the plants and animals. It's a cycle...it's natural...****ing deal with it human.
Jesus, all I said was I don't like eating steak..:confused: I'm not forcing you to do anything.

You thank your cheeseburgers before you eat them? Well then, I guess that makes everything perfect. :rolleyes:

I'm not arguing about natural death, i'm talking about killing animals to wear their skin is wrong. It would help if you paid attention before putting your 2 cents in.

[cryptic name]

I firmly believe Jesus of Nazareth was a pagan, in so much as one could have been growing up Jewish in the Middle East. He practiced magic, performed healings, engaged in sympathetic rituals and was an advocate for unconditional love and understanding. Great guy he was...

no He is the son of God. all He did on earth was through God. you're right about Him advocating truth and love, particularly the endless love of the one true God. i appreciate that you know Jesus Christ was a great man and im fine with the fact that you don't worship Him, that is between Him and you. but please, please, please don't associate him with paganism.

[The Dark Guybrush]

so would it be okay to wear a LIVE animal? would that be okay?
i wear my cat like a scarf sometimes..

[Venice]

honestly, i really don't care
Watching a seal choke to death on it's on blood after being repeaditly beaten in the head doesn't affect you?

The children of tomorrow at their finest.

[The Dark Guybrush]

i always go for the knees first... the KNEES!!

[cryptic name]

Jesus, all I said was I don't like eating steak..:confused: I'm not forcing you to do anything.

You thank your cheeseburgers before you eat them? Well then, I guess that makes everything perfect. :rolleyes:

I'm not arguing about natural death, i'm talking about killing animals to wear their skin is wrong. It would help if you paid attention before putting your 2 cents in.


in what way is it wrong? we use the resources provided us in order to shelter ourselves, and we have been for thousands of years...it's natural ;)

also cows put out so much methane that they actually contribute 4% of pllution to the air, cars put out 1%. so you might say the meat and leather industry is doing the world a service

[Butters]

Watching a seal choke to death on it's on blood after being repeaditly beaten in the head doesn't affect you?

The children of tomorrow at their finest.
Hey, what are seals used for after their beat to death?

[jaguarr]

i always go for the knees first... the KNEES!!

LOFL! I didn't know seals had knees. :up:

jag

[The Dark Guybrush]

Hey, what are seals used for after their beat to death?
entertainment purposes:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/gifs/0911seal11.jpg

[cryptic name]

Watching a seal choke to death on it's on blood after being repeaditly beaten in the head doesn't affect you?

The children of tomorrow at their finest.

a seal...is that what that was? no, it doesn't change my mind about anything. it's not something i would watch for pleasure, but seeing doesn't change my world view. i don't hold animals at an equal ground with humans, they are here for us to use.

[bluejake01]

no He is the son of God. all He did on earth was through God. you're right about Him advocating truth and love, particularly the endless love of the one true God. i appreciate that you know Jesus Christ was a great man and im fine with the fact that you don't worship Him, that is between Him and you. but please, please, please don't associate him with paganism.

Uhm...read a history book once in awhile...it's fun. I am not disrespecting your religion, merely voicing my own belief. Thanks.

[Alexia Dark]

We should start a group or something-'Pagans for Religious Education'.

[bluejake01]

BTW...what is wrong with Paganism? Pagani means "wise one" Jesus was a wise one. He was a pagan.

[jaguarr]

entertainment purposes:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/gifs/0911seal11.jpg

ROTLMAO!!!!! You made me choke on my orange juice with that one! Damn you!

jag

[The Dark Guybrush]

ROTLMAO!!!!! You made me choke on my orange juice with that one! Damn you!

jag
lol, sorry man.. :daredevil

[Butters]

entertainment purposes:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/gifs/0911seal11.jpg
Exactly. High Fives....

[cryptic name]

Uhm...read a history book once in awhile...it's fun. I am not disrespecting your religion, merely voicing my own belief. Thanks.

what does a histroy book have to do with your belief?

nevermind, i don't want to get into anymore of these arguments. i don't care what you believe, forget i said anything.

[bluejake01]

We should start a group or something-'Pagans for Religious Education'.

It would do no good. I believe the world is full of young souls right now, and has been for the last 4,000 years. The religions of the Middle East are young and prevailent not only because of their violent spread, but because they appeal to those still coming to terms with the nature of the universe. They are very basic, easy models to follow. There are many lessons to learn, and many paths to take yet. In time they will mature and reach enlightenment...but that could take thousands of years.

[bluejake01]

what does a histroy book have to do with your belief?


All of life is a cycle...history repeats. Ancient history did not begin and end with the Bible. For a more complete world view I suggest studying where your religion originated, why you believe it, and how it spread to your physical location.

That and you would know that pagan isn't a negative, or blasphemous label. As I said before it means "wise one".

[Alexia Dark]

But we could still support people of other religions to learn about the religions of others.

[The Dark Guybrush]

All of life is a cycle...history repeats. Ancient history did not begin and end with the Bible. For a more complete world view I suggest studying where your religion originated, why you believe it, and how it spread to your physical location. That's all.
wrong. history begins when you are born, and ends when you are dead. how does something exist if you don't anymore?

[jaguarr]

But we could still support people of other religions to learn about the religions of others.

:up:

jag, who knows that the greatest religion of all is love...

[bluejake01]

wrong. history begins when you are born, and ends when you are dead. how does something exist if you don't anymore?

Prove that I don't exist in death or before life.

[The Dark Guybrush]

prove that you DO.

only time will tell.

[bluejake01]

prove that you DO.

only time will tell.

I can prove that I do, using basic physical laws involving energy and matter.

[bluejake01]

:up:

jag, who knows that the greatest religion of all is love...

Yuppers...that's why Jesus was so wise.

[The Dark Guybrush]

I can prove that I do, using basic physical laws involving energy and matter.
well type it up and post it. i am interested.

[Alexia Dark]

Wow. Some people are so narrow-minded...

[Butters]

Wow. Some people are so narrow-minded...
Are you very open minded ? ;)

[bluejake01]

It's rather simple really...but requires some abstract thought.

Bear with me.

We must first decide what you feel is "you"

Are you the sum of your parts? Are you your limbs, or tounge? Are you your heart, your brain? Or are "you" indeed the living vessel for your thoughts, memories and emotions? What is your center of self? Thoughts, emotions and memories?

[twylight]

This thread has gone way off topic....I think...

[The Dark Guybrush]

the culmination of all of the above, i suppose.

[The Dark Guybrush]

This thread has gone way off topic....I think...
nope you are just un-enlightened. :p

[bluejake01]

This thread has gone way off topic....I think...

I have never understood the need to limit conversation.

[Wiseman]

a seal...is that what that was? no, it doesn't change my mind about anything. it's not something i would watch for pleasure, but seeing doesn't change my world view. i don't hold animals at an equal ground with humans, they are here for us to use.

Just like women

[twylight]

I have never understood the need to limit conversation.

Honey I know. ;)

I just find it interesting that what started out as an animal rights thread turned into a religious conversation.

[The Dark Guybrush]

Honey I know. ;)

I just find it interesting that what started out as an animal rights thread turned into a religious conversation.
religious? existentialistic conservation isn't religious... :unishr:

[bluejake01]

the culmination of all of the above, i suppose.

I am assuming it would be fair to say that your concept of "self" is a matter of conciousness. That is to say thoughts, feelings, and memories. I assume this because you made the statement that when you die you don't exist. Though really your body does continue to exist. It's matter breaks down and become something else. Your matter eventually becomes life again as it is absorbed and metabolized by living things...correct?

[twylight]

Just like women

You mean "Just like Men." :o

[cryptic name]

Wow. Some people are so narrow-minded...


so have an open mind about his closed mindedness.

[Wiseman]

You mean "Just like Men." :o

Of course that's what I mean't

[jaguarr]

Honey I know. ;)

I just find it interesting that what started out as an animal rights thread turned into a religious conversation.

It might be my fault for saying that I bet Jesus ate meat. :joker:

jag

[cryptic name]

I am assuming it would be fair to say that your concept of "self" is a matter of conciousness. That is to say thoughts, feelings, and memories. I assume this because you made the statement that when you die you don't exist. Though really your body does continue to exist. It's matter breaks down and become something else. Your matter eventually becomes life again as it is absorbed and metabolized by living things...correct?

once you die your body is nothing, because you leave it.

[The Dark Guybrush]

I am assuming it would be fair to say that your concept of "self" is a matter of conciousness. That is to say thoughts, feelings, and memories. I assume this because you made the statement that when you die you don't exist. Though really your body does continue to exist. It's matter breaks down and become something else. Your matter eventually becomes life again as it is absorbed and metabolized by living things...correct?
technically, yes.. and technically, no- since you are dead, you will not be aware of the fact that what used to be your body is being re-processed into the world. therefore, it's not happening.

[twylight]

Of course that's what I mean't

Of course.

It might be my fault for saying that I bet Jesus ate meat. :joker:

jag
He didn't? :eek: ;)

[bluejake01]

Well...let me make a long story short...Our thoughts, feelings and memories are actually products of matter and energy, electro-chemical responses. Our matter and energy is never destroyed, it merely changes form and is renewed. We were not created in a vaccuum, nor do we "poof" out of existence when we die. Since it is a forgone conclusion that we are our conciousness, and our conciousness is merely matter and energy that came from somewhere and will go somewhere after we are gone...it is more than reasonable to say that we exist before and after death.

[bluejake01]

once you die your body is nothing, because you leave it.

With all due respect that is a belief based on nothing but what someone told someone else thousands of years ago. It is here say and nothing more.

[The Dark Guybrush]

if this is the case, do you think that ghosts and experiencing deja vu have anything to do with this subject?

[bluejake01]

technically, yes.. and technically, no- since you are dead, you will not be aware of the fact that what used to be your body is being re-processed into the world. therefore, it's not happening.

Define awareness...our "awareness" is a simple electro-chemical response...matter and energy, which endures on for as long as there is a universe.

[cryptic name]

but then what happens to your conciousness after the body dies?

[bluejake01]

if this is the case, do you think that ghosts and experiencing deja vu have anything to do with this subject?

I absolutely do. Science is my "how" of the universe. Spirtuality is my "why" of the universe.

[cryptic name]

With all due respect that is a belief based on nothing but what someone told someone else thousands of years ago. It is here say and nothing more.

what makes your belief anything more?

[The Dark Guybrush]

how many times do you think we've been born, died, and born again? in the LITERAL sense..

[bluejake01]

but then what happens to your conciousness after the body dies?

I have a theory...a belief if you will, but it is no more or less valid than yours. It's all just here say, until I experience it...but then I doubt I would beable to tell you what happens...or that you would believe me if I did.

[The Dark Guybrush]

theories are like ***holes.. everybody's got one

(myself included, of course. theories & otherwise) :D

[bluejake01]

how many times do you think we've been born, died, and born again? in the LITERAL sense..

That is a difficult question to answer. I believe quite a bit...thousands of times...maybe more. It is my belief that we continue on this plane for as long as it takes to learn it's lessons before moving on to another plane of reality.

[The Dark Guybrush]

That is a difficult question to answer. I believe quite a bit...thousands of times...maybe more. It is my belief that we continue on this plane for as long as it takes to learn it's lessons before moving on to another plane of reality.
makes sense to me.. you never told me what you think of ghosts and deja vu.

[cryptic name]

anyway, about meat...

[The Dark Guybrush]

anyway, about meat...
hey buddy, we ARE meat.. deal with it.

[bluejake01]

makes sense to me.. you never told me what you think of ghosts and deja vu.

Well...with the current theories of time being non-linear I believe deja-vu could be a memory of something being accessed before or during the linear order of the event.

Ghosts...well there are many types...some are recordings of events that were extremely intense...some are the spirits of those in between life and not life.

[cryptic name]

is venice even here anymore?

[bluejake01]

hey buddy, we ARE meat.. deal with it.

And someday I will be eaten. Hell...considering a hungry animal would just as soon eat me as I would it...i think it's fair. But then I too realize that meat machines are at best unethical. It's really unrealistic to expect everyone to grow or hunt and butcher their own meat in the current state of the world. If we didn't cultivate livestock there wouldn't be enough food to support our over populated numbers.

[The Dark Guybrush]

not to mention the world would be overrun by smelly cows and chickens! or not.

[bluejake01]

not to mention the world would be overrun by smelly cows and chickens! or not.


As Dave Mordell says..."If we didn't eat cows, there wouldn't be cows. Ever notice they don't grow in the wild?"

[The Dark Guybrush]

^ excellent observation.

[Venice]

a seal...is that what that was? no, it doesn't change my mind about anything. it's not something i would watch for pleasure, but seeing doesn't change my world view. i don't hold animals at an equal ground with humans, they are here for us to use.
Well what do you think is going to happen once we "use" them all up?

[Zev]

Well what do you think is going to happen once we "use" them all up?

We won't use them all up. They're a renewable resource. It's not like at some point someone says "Alright, enough with the cows, no more of them!" and tells everyone to quit.

And reincarnation just doesn't sound right to me. I mean, the whole point is that you live over and over again, subconsciously gaining information and becoming "wiser". However, that would imply that over time, humanity would improve in its dealings toward each other. And yet, we still have the same **** going on today that's been going on for thousands and thousands of years. We just do it over the Internet, is all. I mean, they released CINO last summer. Nicholas Cage was chosen to replace Christopher Reeve as Superman. We've gone from Batman Beyond to The Batman. And THAT'S just the WB. So, if anything, people are getting DUMBER.

So, how does it work? As soon as people get wise enough to realize, hey, maybe cheating on your spouse isn't very nice, FOOM, they get booted up to the Great Gatsby? And some new souls get put into circulation? Seems like a very unfair system, keeping humanity at the edge of destruction at all times and depriving us of our spiritual wisemen.

Plus, in past lives, no one ever remembers being Elsa, the milk maiden who died of pneumonia. They're always Julius Caesar or Elvis.

Not to mention the "more-enlightened-then-thou" smugness. "Oh, you have a very YOUNG religion, you'll get it some day, in a few thousand years." Geez, why not just call my soul a noob and get it over with?

[bluejake01]

And reincarnation just doesn't sound right to me. I mean, the whole point is that you live over and over again, subconsciously gaining information and becoming "wiser". However, that would imply that over time, humanity would improve in its dealings toward each other. And yet, we still have the same **** going on today that's been going on for thousands and thousands of years. We just do it over the Internet, is all. I mean, they released CINO last summer. Nicholas Cage was chosen to replace Christopher Reeve as Superman. We've gone from Batman Beyond to The Batman. And THAT'S just the WB. So, if anything, people are getting DUMBER.

So, how does it work? As soon as people get wise enough to realize, hey, maybe cheating on your spouse isn't very nice, FOOM, they get booted up to the Great Gatsby? And some new souls get put into circulation? Seems like a very unfair system, keeping humanity at the edge of destruction at all times and depriving us of our spiritual wisemen.

Plus, in past lives, no one ever remembers being Elsa, the milk maiden who died of pneumonia. They're always Julius Caesar or Elvis.

Not to mention the "more-enlightened-then-thou" smugness. "Oh, you have a very YOUNG religion, you'll get it some day, in a few thousand years." Geez, why not just call my soul a noob and get it over with?

I'm sorry you got the impression I was being smug. It doesn't sound right or fair to you, because you aren't looking at the big picture. Your understanding of the Universe is based on philosophical writtings that were done in a war torn, primative region, thousands of years ago. Montheism, in particular the religions that branched from the ancient Hebrew are very simple models, or metaphors to follow. They are very black and white and are based on the heirarchy that is familar enough to people that are used to living under a king, or dictator (not a bad word BTW).

Do you find it odd that nearly EVERY religion that has existed since the dawn of man provided for individual exploration of spirituality, didn't encourage dogma, believed in balance, had no "evil" gods, placed women on the same level as men, didn't frown upon transexuals, homosexuals, or bisexuals, didn't say that "the only true religion is our religion", understood magnetic pulls from the earth, could harness the earth's energy for their own use, believed in re-incarnation and didn't ever feel the need to convert anyone else to their way of thinking...except of course the religions of the Middle East?

Why would I call you a "noob"? Would you insult, or belittle someone that was still learning? Would you call a child in school a Noob? I believe Earth is a school, and when we are done with school we move on to a new plane of existence. That is why there will never be peace, and why there will always be good and evil. It is needed to learn from. It is valuable to have the struggle. There are those that are more mature that try and help those that still have a lot to learn.

[bluejake01]

Plus, in past lives, no one ever remembers being Elsa, the milk maiden who died of pneumonia. They're always Julius Caesar or Elvis.




That is really incorrect, and an offensive generalization. You seem to be confusing media whores for real spiritualists. It's easy to categorize a group of people by the actions of a very vocal minority, but I ask that you don't.

[Zev]

That is really incorrect, and an offensive generalization. You seem to be confusing media whores for real spiritualists. It's easy to categorize a group of people by the actions of a very vocal minority, but I ask that you don't.

Actually, that was more of a joke. And you do come off as quite smug.

"What's your favorite movie? Alien? Well, that's okay, you're very YOUNG spiritually."

See? Gets annoying.

[Sarge]

blue you do sound houlier than thou. You're patting him on the head like he's a little puppy, and because his beliefs are different than yours and he follows a more mainstream religion he is suddenly not spirtually enlightened? Have you ever tried to talk with a relgious leader of any kind about spirituality? You'll find that they are enlighted and spiritually fufilled people.

[jaguarr]

Everyone chooses whatever belief system that is right for themselves, be it one that's organized and has many followers or it's something they construct for themselves. The one consistency to being "enlightened" as it were that I have seen, no matter what religious beliefs the enlightened folks may follow, is that they tend to be perfectly content to let everyone else find their own enlightenment in their own time and in their own way. They understand that there is no one right or wrong way to get to where each of us is going, and that we all have to follow our own paths on this journey. I've seen this from Buddhist Monks, and I've seen it from Christian sects that some would consider relatively extreme such as a Pentecostal Preacher. That's the consistent thing I've found in people who really do seem enlightened and at peace with their choices: they'll share what they know but let folks learn what they need to as they need to, knowing that the journey is much more important than the actual destination.

Cheers,
jag

[bluejake01]

blue you do sound houlier than thou. You're patting him on the head like he's a little puppy, and because his beliefs are different than yours and he follows a more mainstream religion he is suddenly not spirtually enlightened? Have you ever tried to talk with a relgious leader of any kind about spirituality? You'll find that they are enlighted and spiritually fufilled people.


The only reason I sound holier than thou is because you assume things about what I am saying. Sorry you must read so much into what I am saying...but that's really your issue. I did not say that monotheists were all young souls...I said those faiths appeal more to young souls than older ones. That's all I am saying.

I surround myself with spiritual people from all paths (yes Christians, Muslims and Jewish paths are included in that statement). I agree with Jag on this issue...every one is free to find their own relationship with the higher being, or beings. A person that is secure in their relationship with god should feel no need to make other people believe as they do.

[bluejake01]

Actually, that was more of a joke. And you do come off as quite smug.

"What's your favorite movie? Alien? Well, that's okay, you're very YOUNG spiritually."

See? Gets annoying.

You think I said you were young spiritually? Ouch...see that's what happens when you read too much into something. I don't know you, I can't make that call. Even if I did know you, I wouldn't make a judgement about your maturity. I was saying that the structure of the modern church as a whole, which is the culmination of thousands of years of heirarchy and power exchanges, and government by religion, appeals mainly to younger souls. It's easy to follow when you are being told what to believe then when you explore on your own. It would surprise you to learn that I am a Jesusist...that is to say that I follow very closely the sage words of Jesus of Nazareth. His life was complecated though, and it's up to everyone to decide for themselves just what survives today that accurately portrays the man. I am a student of the world, and I find value in every religion.

[Atrax robustus]

"With so many wonderful alternatives to wool, fur, and leather, there's simply no need to use animal skins to cover your own skin. For every wool sweater, leather belt or jacket, or bit of fur trim, animals are tortured and mutilated in ways that would make any compassionate person's skin crawl. Sheep, cows, foxes, rabbits, minks, and other animals used for their fleece, fur, or skins feel pain and suffer just like the dogs and cats in our own homes, yet chunks of their flesh are hacked off, they are electrocuted, their necks are snapped, and their throats are slit open, often without any painkillers. Join kind people everywhere and shed your skins-wear only compassionate, animal-free clothing." - PETA

Wearing animal fur is disgusting. :( Here's some more gross information: http://www.furisdead.com/animals.html

I didn't want to post any pictures because they're nauseating.


:)
Whats wrong with wool? The sheep isnt killed for its wool.

[Sarge]

Whats wrong with wool? The sheep isnt killed for its wool.
methinks she is against the shearing process, which (so I've heard) does not even harm the sheep.

[bluejake01]

methinks she is against the shearing process, which (so I've heard) does not even harm the sheep.


It's probably annoying at least

[Atrax robustus]

methinks she is against the shearing process, which (so I've heard) does not even harm the sheep.
It doesnt, actually its beneficial to the sheep.

My friend is a sheep shearer, he actually went to New Zealand for a year to work.

[Sarge]

It doesnt, actually its beneficial to the sheep.

My friend is a sheep shearer, he actually went to New Zealand for a year to work.
You mean sheep shearing makes you money? Holy crap I think I've found a job ;)

[TheSumOfGod]

Ever heard of the Trinity? It's more then just a hot chick in those Matrix movies...

And to respond to your first point, my religion says it's okay to eat animals. Yours may not (I assume you're a Buddhist, then?). To try to say I should not eat animals, however, is to try to force your religious beliefs on me. Last time I checked, that was wrong...

Oh, and "my God" is the God of the majority of people in this country. After all, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the same God... And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Buddhists believe that there's no God, just enlightenment? Looks like "my God" is the God of most of the planet...

I don't adhere to any religion. Period. But I believe in some sort of Infinite Intelligence on a purely rationnal basis.

My response was intended to counter your "point" that because the Bible says that human beings have been given authority by "God" over all of the animals of the Earth, that it was somehow WRONG, perhaps even SINFUL, to be a vegetarian or vegan who doesn't wear leather or fur. YOU were the one who brought up this religious nonsense into a conservation about fundamental animal rights and abhorrent human cruelty.

[TheSumOfGod]

wrong. history begins when you are born, and ends when you are dead. how does something exist if you don't anymore?

Our conciousness is all that truly exists. Matter is merely an illusion, an involuntary projection of our subconcious mind. Matter is the feeling of being limited. When we die, or in other words, when the illusion of our physical body can no longer resist the undeniable truth of the imaginary and temporary nature of the physical universe, our conciousness no longer feels limited, and expands, slowly and gradually, until it becomes one with the infinity of the universe. And our conciousness itself is merely the distinction of the inherent duality of all things, the distinction between wanting to remain separate from the rest of the universe, and simultaneously wanting to become one with the rest of the universe. Our apparent natural aging process is a representation of our life-long resistance towards the outside world, of our will to remain a separate individual with a personality of its own, and our death is merely the rest of the universe winning the battle over our ego, the perpetual battle between our selfishness and our selflessness.

[Strange]

Our conciousness is all that truly exists. Matter is merely an illusion, an involuntary projection of our subconcious mind. Matter is the feeling of being limited. When we die, or in other words, when the illusion of our physical body can no longer resist the undeniable truth of the imaginary and temporary nature of the physical universe, our conciousness no longer feels limited, and expands, slowly and gradually, until it becomes one with the infinity of the universe. And our conciousness itself is merely the distinction of the inherent duality of all things, the distinction between wanting to remain separate from the rest of the universe, and simultaneously wanting to become one with the rest of the universe. Our apparent natural aging process is a representation of our life-long resistance towards the outside world, of our will to remain a separate individual with a personality of its own, and our death is merely the rest of the universe winning the battle over our ego, the perpetual battle between our selfishness and our selflessness.

Our conciousness is only a bunch of electrical impulses held together by our brain, once our brain is dead our conciousness can no longer exist. Unless you believe that it is encoded in our soul and that would be a different theory all together.

[TheSumOfGod]

With all due respect that is a belief based on nothing but what someone told someone else thousands of years ago. It is here say and nothing more.

^See my post above.

[TheSumOfGod]

Our conciousness is only a bunch of electrical impulses held together by our brain, once our brain is dead our conciousness can no longer exist. Unless you believe that it is encoded in our soul and that would be a different theory all together.

You are assuming that your physical body and that the rest of the physical universe actually exist. If everything that we experience is nothing more than the subjective interpretation of electrical impulses, then isn't it logical to conclude that all of reality itself solely exists as a part of our conciousness?

[TheSumOfGod]

theories are like ***holes.. everybody's got one

(myself included, of course. theories & otherwise) :D

No, actually, theories ARE like a**holes, MINE is more important than YOURS! ;)

[Wiseman]

No, actually, theories ARE like a**holes, MINE is more important than YOURS! ;)

Are you a male prostitute?

[TheSumOfGod]

Are you a male prostitute?

I was making a joke. Why is your avatar the picture of a bunny spreading his cheeks?

[Wiseman]

I was making a joke. Why is your avatar the picture of a bunny spreading his cheeks?

Cause I think it's funny, it's from another thread

[Zev]

I don't adhere to any religion. Period. But I believe in some sort of Infinite Intelligence on a purely rationnal basis.

My response was intended to counter your "point" that because the Bible says that human beings have been given authority by "God" over all of the animals of the Earth, that it was somehow WRONG, perhaps even SINFUL, to be a vegetarian or vegan who doesn't wear leather or fur. YOU were the one who brought up this religious nonsense into a conservation about fundamental animal rights and abhorrent human cruelty.

When did I say that it was WRONG to be vegan? Point that out to me. I was just saying that I believe God gave man authority to eat and wear animals, in contrast to the PETA types who openingly say that it is WRONG and SINFUL to eat or wear animals.

Oh, and I think we've already established how many people believe "this religious nonsense", so simmer down the hate, okay?

[Zev]

I am a student of the world, and I find value in every religion.

You see, that just sounds wishy-washy to me.

[TheSumOfGod]

It's not hate, it's simply distaste for those who believe that they hold the absolute truth when in reality all that they're holding is ink, paper and mythology.

[Zev]

It's not hate, it's simply distaste for those who believe that they hold the absolute truth when in reality all that they're holding is ink, paper and mythology.

So in other words, you think anyone that believes in the supernatural is an idiot and thus not as smart as you?

[the defenders]

When did I say that it was WRONG to be vegan? Point that out to me. I was just saying that I believe God gave man authority to eat and wear animals, in contrast to the PETA types who openingly say that it is WRONG and SINFUL to eat or wear animals.

Oh, and I think we've already established how many people believe "this religious nonsense", so simmer down the hate, okay?

Wrong and sinful eh? You can search this thread and I've said numerous times that I don't think it's wrong that you eat meat. I've said I disagree with it. But I do not think it's wrong.

What most the people in this thread won't listen to is the numerous times I've said meat eaters, vegetarians, and vegans need to work together to reform slaughterhouses. I think most meat eaters don't like that animals are inhumanely treated by slaughterhouses. If you think that animal torture is okay, than you don't deserve to be called a human. There are much more humane ways to slaughter animals. I'd much rather work with meat eaters and make slaughterhouses more humane than have some holier-than-thou attitude and get absolutely nothing done.

If you care about animals and still want to eat meat, please make it free range. That's all I ask. And just in favor of animal and human rights, limit your fast food consumption. Those corporations are the f***ing lowest of the low on morality and ethics.

[Sarge]

Wrong and sinful eh? You can search this thread and I've said numerous times that I don't think it's wrong that you eat meat. I've said I disagree with it. But I do not think it's wrong.

What most the people in this thread won't listen to is the numerous times I've said meat eaters, vegetarians, and vegans need to work together to reform slaughterhouses. I think most meat eaters don't like that animals are inhumanely treated by slaughterhouses. If you think that animal torture is okay, than you don't deserve to be called a human. There are much more humane ways to slaughter animals. I'd much rather work with meat eaters and make slaughterhouses more humane than have some holier-than-thou attitude and get absolutely nothing done.

If you care about animals and still want to eat meat, please make it free range. That's all I ask. And just in favor of animal and human rights, limit your fast food consumption. Those corporations are the f***ing lowest of the low on morality and ethics.Note:This is coming from a meat eater.

While I'd really hope for an alternative, is there really a way to humanely slaughter something?

[Wiseman]

Wrong and sinful eh? You can search this thread and I've said numerous times that I don't think it's wrong that you eat meat. I've said I disagree with it. But I do not think it's wrong.

What most the people in this thread won't listen to is the numerous times I've said meat eaters, vegetarians, and vegans need to work together to reform slaughterhouses. I think most meat eaters don't like that animals are inhumanely treated by slaughterhouses. If you think that animal torture is okay, than you don't deserve to be called a human. There are much more humane ways to slaughter animals. I'd much rather work with meat eaters and make slaughterhouses more humane than have some holier-than-thou attitude and get absolutely nothing done.

If you care about animals and still want to eat meat, please make it free range. That's all I ask. And just in favor of animal and human rights, limit your fast food consumption. Those corporations are the f***ing lowest of the low on morality and ethics.

I agree with you, the problem with this thread is that it was started by a dip**** that thought he was better than everyone else.

[the defenders]

Note:This is coming from a meat eater.

While I'd really hope for an alternative, is there really a way to humanely slaughter something?

Well, there are more humane ways than they use today.

[Venice]

Whats wrong with wool? The sheep isnt killed for its wool.
Well for starters..

Inside the Wool Industry

It may come from a sheep, goat, or Tibetan antelope. It may be called wool, mohair, pashmina, shahtoosh, or cashmere. But no matter what it's called, any kind of wool causes harm to the animals from whom it is taken.

Many people believe that shearing sheep helps animals who might otherwise be burdened with too much wool. But without human interference, sheep grow just enough wool to protect themselves from temperature extremes. The fleece provides effective insulation against both cold and heat. Wool was once obtained by plucking it from the sheep during molting seasons. Breeding for continuous fleece growth began after the invention of shears.

Wool-Producing Countries Abuse Sheep
With more than 100 million sheep, Australia produces 30 percent of all wool used worldwide. Flocks usually consist of thousands of sheep, making individual attention to their needs impossible.

In Australia, the most commonly raised sheep are Merinos, specifically bred to have wrinkly skin, which means more wool per animal. This unnatural overload of wool causes animals to die of heat exhaustion during hot months, and the wrinkles also collect urine and moisture. Attracted to the moisture, flies lay eggs in the folds of skin, and the hatched maggots can eat the sheep alive. To prevent flystrike, Australian ranchers perform a barbaric operation mulesing or carving huge strips of flesh off the backs of unanesthetized lambs legs and around their tails. This is done to cause smooth, scarred skin that wont harbor fly eggs, yet the bloody wounds often get flystrike before they heal.

Within weeks of birth, lambs ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without anesthetics. Male lambs are castrated when between 2 and 8 weeks old, with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply one of the most painful methods of castration possible. Every year, hundreds of lambs die before the age of 8 weeks from exposure or starvation, and mature sheep die every year from disease, lack of shelter, and neglect. Faced with so much death and disease, the rational solution would be to reduce the number of sheep so as to maintain them decently. Instead, sheep are bred to bear more lambs to offset the deaths.

Shearing Is Painful
Sheep are sheared each spring, after lambing, just before some breeds would naturally shed their winter coats. Timing is considered critical: Shearing too late means loss of wool. In the rush, many sheep die from exposure after premature shearing.

Shearers are usually paid by volume, not by the hour, which encourages fast work without regard for the welfare of the sheep. Says one eyewitness: The shearing shed must be one of the worst places in the world for cruelty to animals I have seen shearers punch sheep with their shears or their fists until the sheeps nose bled. I have seen sheep with half their faces shorn off.

Live Exports
When sheep age and their wool production declines, they are sold for slaughter. This results in the cruel live export of 6.5 million sheep every year from Australia to the Middle East and North Africa, and nearly 800,000 sheep are exported from the U.K. for slaughter abroad.

In Europe, tightly packed animals are subjected to long-distance trips, sometimes 50 hours long, without food or water. Their final destination is frequently a country with minimal slaughter regulations, where the animals often regain consciousness while being dismembered. In 2001, activists persuaded the European Parliament to adopt a report calling for journeys of a maximum of eight hours in livestock export, the first step toward creating a law.

In Australia, sheep travel vast distances over land until they reach the feedlots where they are held before being loaded onto ships. Many sheep, stressed, ill, or wounded from the journey and faced with intensive crowding, disease, and strange food, die in the holding pens.

The surviving sheep are packed tightly into ships. Younger animals or babies born en route are often trampled to death. Shipboard mortality ranges up to 10 percent, and for every sheep who dies, many others become ill or are injured. For example, 14,500 sheep reportedly died from heat stress while in transit to the Middle East in 2002. Their carcasses were thrown overboard.

In the Muslim nations of North Africa and the Middle East, ritual slaughter is exempt from humane slaughter regulations. Some sheep are slaughtered en masse in lots, others are taken home, often in the trunks of cars, and slaughtered by the purchasers.

[Venice]

I would post the pictures of mulesing but Farmer Joe said this is a family site. :)

[Atrax robustus]

Well for starters..

Inside the Wool Industry

It may come from a sheep, goat, or Tibetan antelope. It may be called wool, mohair, pashmina, shahtoosh, or cashmere. But no matter what it's called, any kind of wool causes harm to the animals from whom it is taken.

Many people believe that shearing sheep helps animals who might otherwise be burdened with too much wool. But without human interference, sheep grow just enough wool to protect themselves from temperature extremes. The fleece provides effective insulation against both cold and heat. Wool was once obtained by plucking it from the sheep during molting seasons. Breeding for continuous fleece growth began after the invention of shears.

Wool-Producing Countries Abuse Sheep
With more than 100 million sheep, Australia produces 30 percent of all wool used worldwide. Flocks usually consist of thousands of sheep, making individual attention to their needs impossible.

In Australia, the most commonly raised sheep are Merinos, specifically bred to have wrinkly skin, which means more wool per animal. This unnatural overload of wool causes animals to die of heat exhaustion during hot months, and the wrinkles also collect urine and moisture. Attracted to the moisture, flies lay eggs in the folds of skin, and the hatched maggots can eat the sheep alive. To prevent flystrike, Australian ranchers perform a barbaric operation mulesing or carving huge strips of flesh off the backs of unanesthetized lambs legs and around their tails. This is done to cause smooth, scarred skin that wont harbor fly eggs, yet the bloody wounds often get flystrike before they heal.

Within weeks of birth, lambs ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without anesthetics. Male lambs are castrated when between 2 and 8 weeks old, with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply one of the most painful methods of castration possible. Every year, hundreds of lambs die before the age of 8 weeks from exposure or starvation, and mature sheep die every year from disease, lack of shelter, and neglect. Faced with so much death and disease, the rational solution would be to reduce the number of sheep so as to maintain them decently. Instead, sheep are bred to bear more lambs to offset the deaths.

Shearing Is Painful
Sheep are sheared each spring, after lambing, just before some breeds would naturally shed their winter coats. Timing is considered critical: Shearing too late means loss of wool. In the rush, many sheep die from exposure after premature shearing.

Shearers are usually paid by volume, not by the hour, which encourages fast work without regard for the welfare of the sheep. Says one eyewitness: The shearing shed must be one of the worst places in the world for cruelty to animals I have seen shearers punch sheep with their shears or their fists until the sheeps nose bled. I have seen sheep with half their faces shorn off.

Live Exports
When sheep age and their wool production declines, they are sold for slaughter. This results in the cruel live export of 6.5 million sheep every year from Australia to the Middle East and North Africa, and nearly 800,000 sheep are exported from the U.K. for slaughter abroad.

In Europe, tightly packed animals are subjected to long-distance trips, sometimes 50 hours long, without food or water. Their final destination is frequently a country with minimal slaughter regulations, where the animals often regain consciousness while being dismembered. In 2001, activists persuaded the European Parliament to adopt a report calling for journeys of a maximum of eight hours in livestock export, the first step toward creating a law.

In Australia, sheep travel vast distances over land until they reach the feedlots where they are held before being loaded onto ships. Many sheep, stressed, ill, or wounded from the journey and faced with intensive crowding, disease, and strange food, die in the holding pens.

The surviving sheep are packed tightly into ships. Younger animals or babies born en route are often trampled to death. Shipboard mortality ranges up to 10 percent, and for every sheep who dies, many others become ill or are injured. For example, 14,500 sheep reportedly died from heat stress while in transit to the Middle East in 2002. Their carcasses were thrown overboard.

In the Muslim nations of North Africa and the Middle East, ritual slaughter is exempt from humane slaughter regulations. Some sheep are slaughtered en masse in lots, others are taken home, often in the trunks of cars, and slaughtered by the purchasers.



Some fair points.... but if shearing is done correctly there is no pain for the animal and I can see no harm.

The shipping and cramped conditions are another debate entirely.

I see no problem with wool, if the sheep are treated correctly.
If they are not, then its another matter entirely.

[the defenders]

Some fair points.... but if shearing is done correctly there is no pain for the animal and I can see no harm.

The shipping and cramped conditions are another debate entirely.

I see no problem with wool, if the sheep are treated correctly.
If they are not, then its another matter entirely.

If sheep aren't just farmed for wool and aren't harmed in the shearing, I too see no problem with it. I have a wool coat. Not that I bought it from a store that gave money to wool companies. I got it from a thrift shop. I guess I'm bad now.

[Strange]

You are assuming that your physical body and that the rest of the physical universe actually exist. If everything that we experience is nothing more than the subjective interpretation of electrical impulses, then isn't it logical to conclude that all of reality itself solely exists as a part of our conciousness?

It would be "all reality" as we know it from our own conciousness and it would be different with each different person. Each person see's the world differently based on there life and their experiences, so one person's reality would not be the same as yours or mine due to our different set of electrical impulses.

[Venice]

If sheep aren't just farmed for wool and aren't harmed in the shearing, I too see no problem with it. I have a wool coat. Not that I bought it from a store that gave money to wool companies. I got it from a thrift shop. I guess I'm bad now.
Did you read what I just posted? :confused:

[Sarge]

If sheep aren't just farmed for wool and aren't harmed in the shearing, I too see no problem with it. I have a wool coat. Not that I bought it from a store that gave money to wool companies. I got it from a thrift shop. I guess I'm bad now.
and the problem with giving the wool company money is...?

[Venice]

and the problem with giving the wool company money is...?
They promote and slaughter millions of sheep each year? I would consider that a problem.

[Sarge]

They promote and slaughter millions of sheep each year? I would consider that a problem.
since when did "shearing off their wool (which grows back)" equate to slaughter?

[Wiseman]

They promote and slaughter millions of sheep each year? I would consider that a problem.

What do you mean promote? I haven't seen any commercials

[bluejake01]

You see, that just sounds wishy-washy to me.
Aren't you glad we don't see things the same way then? I don't know how being open to learning all there is to be taught is wishy washy. Do you have siblings? Perhaps they are different than you, and your parents know this. Perhaps they like to do things you don't. Perhaps they are carpenters while you are a doctor...would you be wishy washy if you see the value in carpentry as well as medicine? I think you would be wise in that. The world can't exist if there is no diversity.

[Venice]

since when did "shearing off their wool (which grows back)" equate to slaughter?
Read my post about Wool.

[bluejake01]

So in other words, you think anyone that believes in the supernatural is an idiot and thus not as smart as you?


You really like to put words in people's mouths.

[Venice]

FUR

Coats and toys sold in the U.S. and labeled as rabbit fur may be made with domestic dog and cat fur instead.

The energy needed to produce a fur coat from ranch-raised animal skins is approximately 20 times that needed for a fake fur coat.

Mink farms pollute our waterways with more than 60,000 tons of manure and 1,000 tons of phosphorus every year.

At least 70 million rabbits are slaughtered every year for their fur-it's used in clothing, as lures in flyfishing, and for trim on craft items and cat toys.

Items labeled "Persian lamb" are produced by slaughtering a mother sheep just before she gives birth, then cutting out her fetus and skinning it.

The Conibear 220 steel trap, popular with hunters, exerts 90 pounds of pressure per square inch?it takes between three and eight minutes for an animal victim to suffocate to death.

It takes nearly 10 minutes for a beaver to drown when captured in an underwater trap.

Tens of thousands of hamsters are strangled to death every year in Hungary for their fur—it takes 100 hamsters to make one fur coat.

More than one out of every three baby harp seals born in Canada each year are clubbed to death for their fur.

WOOL

Within weeks of birth, lambs' ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without painkillers.

Every year, 6.5 million sheep are exported from Australia to the Middle East and North Africa, and up to 10 percent die during the 11-week journey.

New Zealand farmers pay a "fart tax" because of the methane emissions that come from their millions of sheep. Methane gas is a threat to the Earth's ozone layer.

In order to "protect" their sheep herds, ranchers slaughter millions of kangaroos and coyotes every year.

A "shearling" garment is made from a sheep or lamb shorn shortly before slaughter; the skin is tanned with the wool still on it.

Typically, 50 to 80 percent of cashmere goats with "defects" in their coats are killed before 2 years of age.

Because male angora rabbits have only 75 to 80 percent of the wool yield of females, they are usually killed at birth.

LEATHER

Every year, the global leather industry slaughters more than a billion animals for their skins and hides.

The cattle raised and killed for beef and leather consume enough food to exceed the caloric needs of the entire human population on Earth.

It takes four whole cows for every car interior.

Every year, 35,000 cows lose their skins for footballs.

Collagen used for injections into humans is usually derived from cowhides.

Although alligators may naturally live up to 60 years, on farms they are usually butchered before the age of 2.

It takes the skins of two or three alligators' bellies to make one handbag.

Kangaroos are slaughtered by the millions every year to make soccer shoes.

Hundreds of thousands of dog and cat skins are traded in Europe and are used to make products like baby shoes that may be sold in the U.S.

[cryptic name]

They promote and slaughter millions of sheep each year? I would consider that a problem.

aren't these animals bred to be slaughtered?

[Venice]

aren't these animals bred to be slaughtered?
Yep, and it's not pretty.

[bluejake01]

Venice...these are horrible things that happen, and the answer has always been reform. We have taken great steps in this country to facilitate a climate of change. We have outlawed inhumane treatment of livestock in this country, and the authorities are busy enforcing and defining those laws. I think it's very nice that you have latched on to your cause with such fervor, but really, you would be better off living the way you preach, rather than trying to preach. I assume you will be growing your own organic fruits and vegtables and making your own hemp clothing from your own home grown stock. I hope you don't get too cold, having only your own milled cotton and or hemp to keep you warm, in your foliage covered TeePee.

[TheCheshireCat]

Ok look. If we kill thousands of animals and eat them, what are we supposed to do with the skin? Throw it out? Then we'd have a trash problem. So I say don't waste!

[Venice]

Venice...these are horrible things that happen, and the answer has always been reform. We have taken great steps in this country to facilitate a climate of change. We have outlawed inhumane treatment of livestock in this country, and the authorities are busy enforcing and defining those laws. I think it's very nice that you have latched on to your cause with such fervor, but really, you would be better off living the way you preach, rather than trying to preach. I assume you will be growing your own organic fruits and vegtables and making your own hemp clothing from your own home grown stock. I hope you don't get too cold, having only your own milled cotton to keep you warm, in your foliage covered TeePee.
I can't change the way we've evolved, i.e. or gluttony life styles. Just trying to educate people on what they're not used to seeing/hearing.

My house isn't made out of animal fur.

[Venice]

Ok look. If we kill thousands of animals and eat them, what are we supposed to do with the skin? Throw it out? Then we'd have a trash problem. So I say don't waste!
And I say "if you don't have anything productive to say, keep your mouth shut". :)

[TheCheshireCat]

It is productive. I'm never going to stop eating hamburgers. So why waste the skin? I'll wear a leather belt!

[bluejake01]

I can't change the way we've evolved, i.e. or gluttony life styles. Just trying to educate people on what they're not used to seeing/hearing.

My house isn't made out of animal fur.

Do you have any idea how many animals died or had their homes destroyed to collect the lumber that your house is made of? It's really easy to level your little finger of blame isn't it?

News flash sweetheart...90% of people already know what you are saying...but they don't care. The precious few of us that do care can't do anything about it.

[Venice]

How is being obnoxious productive?

[Butters]

I wear animals proudly.

[bluejake01]

And I say "if you don't have anything productive to say, keep your mouth shut". :)

Then why do you talk so much?

[The Riddler]

I wear animals proudly.

ahahhaha!

[Venice]

Do you have any idea how many animals died or had their homes destroyed to collect the lumber that your house is made of? It's really easy to level your little finger of blame isn't it?

News flash sweetheart...90% of people already know what you are saying...but they don't care. The precious few of us that do care can't do anything about it.
I never said I was perfect. You'll never get far with that negative personality.

[TheCheshireCat]

I'm making a suggestion. Threads like this our obnoxious. I bet you're a vegetarian too. Panzy.

[bluejake01]

How is being obnoxious productive?

What's obnoxious about saying that no part of an animal should go to waste?

[bluejake01]

I never said I was perfect. You'll never get far with that negative personality.

This whole thread is negative. Am I a defeatist? no...But I do my best to live as I feel is right. It is not my place to control the actions of the world...I have more important things to worry about, like the health of my tribe and the enrichment of my family.

[Venice]

Animals have feelings, personalities, emotions, they shouldn't be grown to be mutilated. I'm sorry but I don't see how making jokes out of killing animals is entertaining.

[Venice]

This whole thread is negative. Am I a defeatist? no...But I do my best to live as I feel is right. It is not my place to control the actions of the world...I have more important things to worry about, like the health of my tribe and the enrichment of my family.
My first post I stated my cause and was bombarded by idiots. You seem intelligent enough to understand that i'm not here to purposely start fights but I don't sit back and let people walk over me. Sorry if you feel that way.

[bluejake01]

Animals have feelings, personalities, emotions, they shouldn't be grown to be mutilated. I'm sorry but I don't see how making jokes out of killing animals is entertaining.

I didn't see it as a joke...he makes a fine point. The majority of humans eat meat...why waste the skin when it could make us shoes and jackets?

[Venice]

Well the majority of humans need to figure out that killing animals is unethical. We could use other non living resources.

I've always wanted a pair of diamond shoes. :(

[the defenders]

I'm making a suggestion. Threads like this our obnoxious. I bet you're a vegetarian too. Panzy.

What is so feminine about vegetarianism?




Venice, are you a vegan?

[Venice]

lacto-vegetarian...vegetarians and vegans are a little more dramatic.

[bluejake01]

Well the majority of humans need to figure out that killing animals is unethical. We could use other non living resources.

I've always wanted a pair of diamond shoes. :(

Why should the majority of the world conform to your ethics? We were designed by nature to eat omnivores...What do you condier non-living resources? Plants are alive, and I believe they have souls. Why is it ok to kill plants for food?

[bluejake01]

lacto-vegetarian...vegetarians and vegans are a little more dramatic.

That's nice...you steal milk from the mouths of baby bovine, and encourage dairy producers to keep cattle in slavery, being loaded up with junk that makes them unhealthy and causes them stress.

[Venice]

If you're here to only disagree with everything I say to intentionally annoy me then go somewhere else.

[bluejake01]

If you're here to only disagree with everything I say to intentionally annoy me then go somewhere else.

Awwww...hitting too close to home am I? You can't take what your dishing out can you?

[bluejake01]

Why would you choose to put yourself in the line of fire by butting heads with the majority of the world if you weren't ready to have people disagree with you?

[Venice]

I'm becoming full vegetarian Dec 1, it's going to be New Years Resolution. :) I can handle what people dish out, I just think you're an idiot.

[Wiseman]

I'm becoming full vegetarian Dec 1, it's going to be New Years Resolution. :) I can handle what people dish out, I just think you're an idiot.

Haven't you said that about everyone that disagree's with you? I hope you get banned soon you little troll

[bluejake01]

I'm becoming full vegetarian Dec 1, it's going to be New Years Resolution. :) I can handle what people dish out, I just think you're an idiot.

How so? Is that your answer to anyone that doesn't think like you? They are idiots? It's the defense of an insecure person to dismiss other points of view like that. Eating animals is not unethical, wearing their skin is not unethical...it's the way it is done that is unethical. Live the way you preach, and do the best you can. Quit trying to belittle everyone else that doesn't think exactly like you.

[Venice]

How so? Is that your answer to anyone that doesn't think like you? They are idiots? It's the defense of an insecure person to dismiss other points of view like that. Eating animals is not unethical, wearing their skin is not unethical...it's the way it is done that is unethical. Live the way you preach, and do the best you can. Quit trying to belittle everyone else that doesn't think exactly like you.
A little hypocritical don't you think? ;)

[Paradoxium]

It is already been establish that just as many if not more animals gets gutted in veggie/wheat farms as well. I don't get this "unethical" slaugthering of animals deal. I guess it's ok not to feel guilty about something for they are only killed "unintentionally".

http://maddox.xmission.com/combine6.gif

[bluejake01]

A little hypocritical don't you think? ;)
No...I don't. I never called you an idiot. I never insulted you or your way of life. So I don't see how I am a hypocrite. Pleased do enlighten me though. Explain to me why I am being a hypocrite by asking you to stop insulting and belittling people that don't share yoru world view?

[Atrax robustus]

Animals have feelings, personalities, emotions, they shouldn't be grown to be mutilated. I'm sorry but I don't see how making jokes out of killing animals is entertaining.
http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html

Consider yourself sponsored. ;)

[Immortalfire]

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/g172.gif

[Venice]

Venice...these are horrible things that happen, and the answer has always been reform. We have taken great steps in this country to facilitate a climate of change. We have outlawed inhumane treatment of livestock in this country, and the authorities are busy enforcing and defining those laws. I think it's very nice that you have latched on to your cause with such fervor, but really, you would be better off living the way you preach, rather than trying to preach. I assume you will be growing your own organic fruits and vegtables and making your own hemp clothing from your own home grown stock. I hope you don't get too cold, having only your own milled cotton and or hemp to keep you warm, in your foliage covered TeePee.
You insulted me in this post, I found it "belitteling". What's the matter, you can dish it out but can't take it? :)

[bluejake01]

You insulted me in this post, I found it "belitteling". What's the matter, you can dish it out but can't take it? :)

I don't see how that was belittling? I was assuming something based on the way you were talking. Apparently I made an incorrect assesment and you actually don't care if animals are killed, nad aren't take steps to end their suffering. I apologize for the assumption, but that is hardly an insult. An insult is when you call someone an idiot...like you have several times.

[Venice]

I don't see how that was belittling? I was assuming something based on the way you were talking. Apparently I made an incorrect assesment and you actually don't care if animals are killed, nad aren't take steps to end their suffering. I apologize for the assumption, but that is hardly an insult. An insult is when you call someone an idiot...like you have several times.
Right, thank you for that. Moving on...

This is hilarious :)
New York — Model Gisele Bündchen—Blackglama’s (American Legend Mink) newest spokesmodel—learned exactly "what becomes a legend most" when four PETA activists holding signs reading, "Gisele: Fur Scum," jumped onto the runway and made a commotion during the taping of Victoria’s Secret’s fashion show at New York’s Lexington Avenue Armory. Three of the four women were arrested.
PETA wants to get Gisele, who reportedly accepted two fur coats valued at $250,000 from Blackglama to promote its pelts, to think about the fact that just one coat can require killing as many as 50 animals by anal and vaginal electrocution, gassing, and other unsavory methods.

Despite the fur trade’s attempts to revive the industry—by using models like Gisele in their ads—sales remain less than half of what they were in the ’80s. Calvin Klein, Todd Oldham, and Stella McCartney are just a few of the designers who won’t go near fur. Pop star P!nk, ER’s Goran Visnjic, and NYPD Blue’s Charlotte Ross, sickened by exposés of cruelty to animals caught in steel-jaw traps and driven mad in tiny fur farm cages, have all appeared recently pro bono in PETA anti-fur ads. Christy Turlington, Carré Otis, Nadja Auermann, Tatjana Patitz, and Marcus Schenkenberg adamantly refuse to wear fur.

"Gisele has blood on her hands and blood money in her pockets," says PETA President Ingrid Newkirk. "She may have long legs, but she’s pitifully short on compassion, given the pain and fear that animals suffer for her vanity."

[Paradoxium]

bluejake01, don't worry man no one is seriously forcing you to change your ways - don't take what is said too seriously - no one is "morally superior". Don't bother trying to change her views, from the start of the thread, she already made up her mind irregardless of the counter-arguments.

[Wiseman]

bluejake01, don't worry man no one is seriously forcing you to change your ways - don't take what is said too seriously - no one is "morally superior". Don't bother trying to change her views, from the start of the thread, she already made up her mind irregardless of the counter-arguments.

CONFORM OR DIE!!!

[bluejake01]

bluejake01, don't worry man no one is seriously forcing you to change your ways - don't take what is said too seriously - no one is "morally superior". Don't bother trying to change her views, from the start of the thread, she already made up her mind irregardless of the counter-arguments.

I know that...just pointing it out, in my own round about way.

[Atrax robustus]

I'm becoming full vegetarian Dec 1, it's going to be New Years Resolution. :) I can handle what people dish out, I just think you're an idiot.
So whats your thoughts on the animals being killed by machines when your food is being collected from the fields?

Are you going to start being self sufficient and grow ALL your food to ensure these animals are not being killed to help feed you?

Im not against what your doing at all, if you want to be a veggie then more power to you. What I dont get is that its ok to kill animals sometimes, and not at others... that confuses me?

[Venice]

So whats your thoughts on the animals being killed by machines when your food is being collected from the fields?

Are you going to start being self sufficient and grow ALL your food to ensure these animals are not being killed to help feed you?

Im not against what your doing at all, if you want to be a veggie then more power to you. What I dont get is that its ok to kill animals sometimes, and not at others... that confuses me?
Never really thought about it, do you have any links with more information about it?

[WhoAmI?]

CONFORM OR DIE!!!
Resistance is futile, we are the Borg!

By the way, this thread reminds me of how ultra-left wing hippies are adopting ultra-right wing behavoiur and resorting to insults and ignoring their opponents arguements when things don't go their way.

Well the majority of humans need to figure out that killing animals is unethical. We could use other non living resources.
I hear that rocks taste quite nice this time of year.

Oh, and for cookie points, are lions (ect) wrong for eating gazzel and other animals?Okay, what about when a bird eats a worm? Or when a whale eats fish?

lacto-vegetarian...vegetarians and vegans are a little more dramatic.
Yummy, milk. Not like the cow had to die to give me it, don't matter what else it goes through, at least it's alive.:hyper:

[Atrax robustus]

Never really thought about it, do you have any links with more information about it?
Only a maddox site and I doubt youd like that.
Stands to reason, if you think about it though.

Massive machines (Combine Harvesters etc) are constructed to quickly and efficiently harvest the stock. These machines plough through fields (which are home to many mice/rabbits etc) with sharp turning blades.
Its not rocket science as to what happens when the two meet.

[Venice]

Resistance is futile, we are the Borg!

By the way, this thread reminds me of how ultra-left wing hippies are adopting ultra-right wing behavoiur and resorting to insults and ignoring their opponents arguements when things don't go their way.


I hear that rocks taste quite nice this time of year.

Oh, and for cookie points, are lions (ect) wrong for eating gazzel and other animals?Okay, what about when a bird eats a worm? Or when a whale eats fish?


Yummy, milk. Not like the cow had to die to give me it, don't matter what else it goes through, at least it's alive.:hyper:
Have you ever seen a lion wear a gazelles hide? Didn't think so.

[Strange]

Have you ever seen a lion wear a gazelles hide? Didn't think so.

Gazelle hides are soooo last year :o

[Atrax robustus]

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

Thats the site I mentioned earlier. Keep in mind that the guy is just out to get a rise from people.

I love his site though, even funnier is the annoyed readers who complain! :D

[Venice]

Only a maddox site and I doubt youd like that.
Stands to reason, if you think about it though.

Massive machines (Combine Harvesters etc) are constructed to quickly and efficiently harvest the stock. These machines plough through fields (which are home to many mice/rabbits etc) with sharp turning blades.
Its not rocket science as to what happens when the two meet.
I'm not a big fan of Maddox really.

We'll never be able to save every animal from wrongful death, but next time I meet another vegetarian/vegan/etc. i'll ask them. :)

[Atrax robustus]

I'm not a big fan of Maddox really.

We'll never be able to save every animal from wrongful death, but next time I meet another vegetarian/vegan/etc. i'll ask them. :)
You should, Id love to hear the reply! :D

[WhoAmI?]

Have you ever seen a lion wear a gazelles hide? Didn't think so.
Yep, you just have to know where to look:hyper:

[WhoAmI?]

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

Thats the site I mentioned earlier. Keep in mind that the guy is just out to get a rise from people.

I love his site though, even funnier is the annoyed readers who complain! :D
"I guess we should let drunk drivers off the hook too since they don't kill intentionally either, right? "


Gold:hyper:

[Zev]

You really like to put words in people's mouths.

You know what I like more? When people answer questions instead of blowing them off. Just say it. You think people who believe in God aren't as smart as you are.

Oh, and if animals aren't OURS to wear, than whose are they? Native Americans?

[bluejake01]

You know what I like more? When people answer questions instead of blowing them off. Just say it. You think people who believe in God aren't as smart as you are.

Oh, and if animals aren't OURS to wear, than whose are they? Native Americans?

I DO believe in god.

[bluejake01]

I don't recall blowing you off...I responded to everyone of your posts

[Mr. Smash'n Bash]

I didn't work my way up to the top of the food chain to eat carrots.

[cryptic name]

I wear animals proudly.
:up:

[cryptic name]

That's nice...you steal milk from the mouths of baby bovine, and encourage dairy producers to keep cattle in slavery, being loaded up with junk that makes them unhealthy and causes them stress.


isn't slavery a little extreme a word?

[cryptic name]

lacto-vegetarian...vegetarians and vegans are a little more dramatic.

im a level 5 vegan. i don't eat anything that casts a shadow. :joker:

[Venice]

Good for you..:confused:

[ILoveHugh!]

have a nice foodless life full of vitamin and mineral tablets. :)

[cryptic name]

i don't know if the fact that it was a joke got across. it's from an episode of the simpsons

[the defenders]

i don't know if the fact that it was a joke got across. it's from an episode of the simpsons

I love when the tree hits the one building and the hippies cheer then it hits the bong factory and they all get sad.

Classic.

[bluejake01]

isn't slavery a little extreme a word?

Yes...you see it was a joke. I was using the same extremism against her that she is using on everyone else.

[Master Blaster]

Venice, shut the @#$% up! You dirt-eating, tree-hugging, New Age, crystal-wearing, John Tesh-loving, pussy-whipped panzy!

[Darko]

I think that humans should stop killing and consuming animals for the sake of balance amongst our small world. Look ten years from now and "cows" might become extinct. Even if their cycle of cow breeding continues to run years from now, it's f**kin cruel to have a living, breathing creature live out his destiny as a f**kin hamburger.

[jaguarr]

Right, thank you for that. Moving on...

This is hilarious :)
New York — Model Gisele Bündchen—Blackglama’s (American Legend Mink) newest spokesmodel—learned exactly "what becomes a legend most" when four PETA activists holding signs reading, "Gisele: Fur Scum," jumped onto the runway and made a commotion during the taping of Victoria’s Secret’s fashion show at New York’s Lexington Avenue Armory. Three of the four women were arrested.
PETA wants to get Gisele, who reportedly accepted two fur coats valued at $250,000 from Blackglama to promote its pelts, to think about the fact that just one coat can require killing as many as 50 animals by anal and vaginal electrocution, gassing, and other unsavory methods.

Despite the fur trade’s attempts to revive the industry—by using models like Gisele in their ads—sales remain less than half of what they were in the ’80s. Calvin Klein, Todd Oldham, and Stella McCartney are just a few of the designers who won’t go near fur. Pop star P!nk, ER’s Goran Visnjic, and NYPD Blue’s Charlotte Ross, sickened by exposés of cruelty to animals caught in steel-jaw traps and driven mad in tiny fur farm cages, have all appeared recently pro bono in PETA anti-fur ads. Christy Turlington, Carré Otis, Nadja Auermann, Tatjana Patitz, and Marcus Schenkenberg adamantly refuse to wear fur.

"Gisele has blood on her hands and blood money in her pockets," says PETA President Ingrid Newkirk. "She may have long legs, but she’s pitifully short on compassion, given the pain and fear that animals suffer for her vanity."
Someone take these PETA women to a Pistons game...

jag

[Darth Rockwell]

People Eating Tasty Animals. I thought thats what PETA realy stood for. I mean after all who wouldn't want to feel the warm juices coming out of a steak as you chew the succulant flesh of a cow.

[Phaser]

I think that humans should stop killing and consuming animals for the sake of balance amongst our small world. Look ten years from now and "cows" might become extinct. Even if their cycle of cow breeding continues to run years from now, it's f**kin cruel to have a living, breathing creature live out his destiny as a f**kin hamburger.

:D :up:

[jaguarr]

bluejake01, don't worry man no one is seriously forcing you to change your ways - don't take what is said too seriously - no one is "morally superior". Don't bother trying to change her views, from the start of the thread, she already made up her mind irregardless of the counter-arguments.
While this thread has been absolutely hilarious as well as provided some interesting discussions, Dox is absolutely right. In the end, you're dealing with a person who has reached zealot status in their beliefs on this subject. There is no reasoning with them, nor is there any respect on their part for others to live their lives the way they choose to. In their mind, they're right, everyone else is wrong; to the point that they can't stand not having everyone else think just like they do on this topic so much that they'll purposefully troll an internet message board over and over again as some sort of bizarre, personal form of justice no matter whether it's advantageous to their own cause or not. Zealots are usually like that: self-defeating. ;)

Cheers,
jag

[Mr. Smash'n Bash]

Hey I have an idea for you Vegheads out there, Why don't you go back in time and tell the hunter gathers to stop eatting meat. Or tell those first farmers that herding cattle is wrong.

[the defenders]

Venice, shut the @#$% up! You dirt-eating, tree-hugging, New Age, crystal-wearing, John Tesh-loving, pussy-whipped panzy!

I'm a vegetarian and I agree with points Venice makes, although the way he or she makes them isn't the best way. I'm far from a pansie or hippie.

[Spider-Fett]

Kill something everyday, even if it's small.

[TheSumOfGod]

So in other words, you think anyone that believes in the supernatural is an idiot and thus not as smart as you?

No, I think that anyone who has blind faith in organized religion is an idiot.

[TheSumOfGod]

Once again, because I think it matters:

Our conciousness is all that truly exists. Matter is merely an illusion, an involuntary projection of our subconcious mind. Matter is the feeling of being limited. When we die, or in other words, when the illusion of our physical body can no longer resist the undeniable truth of the imaginary and temporary nature of the physical universe, our conciousness no longer feels limited, and expands, slowly and gradually, until it becomes one with the infinity of the universe. And our conciousness itself is merely the distinction of the inherent duality of all things, the distinction between wanting to remain separate from the rest of the universe, and simultaneously wanting to become one with the rest of the universe. Our apparent natural aging process is a representation of our life-long resistance towards the outside world, of our will to remain a separate individual with a personality of its own, and our death is merely the rest of the universe winning the battle over our ego, the perpetual battle between our selfishness and our selflessness.

[The Lizard]

Once again, because I think it matters:

Our conciousness is all that truly exists. Matter is merely an illusion, an involuntary projection of our subconcious mind. Matter is the feeling of being limited. When we die, or in other words, when the illusion of our physical body can no longer resist the undeniable truth of the imaginary and temporary nature of the physical universe, our conciousness no longer feels limited, and expands, slowly and gradually, until it becomes one with the infinity of the universe. And our conciousness itself is merely the distinction of the inherent duality of all things, the distinction between wanting to remain separate from the rest of the universe, and simultaneously wanting to become one with the rest of the universe. Our apparent natural aging process is a representation of our life-long resistance towards the outside world, of our will to remain a separate individual with a personality of its own, and our death is merely the rest of the universe winning the battle over our ego, the perpetual battle between our selfishness and our selflessness.

Can you prove that? Have you experienced it firsthand?
Or are you forming a personal belief based on existing teachings and philosophies (eg: Kants' influence of the nouminal and phenominal realities on human consciousness) that happen to resonate with you personally? Is there faith involved there perhaps?
Just asking.

[Venice]

Kill something everyday, even if it's small.
How about your family?

[TheCheshireCat]

He'd go to jail. Then it'd be difficult to continue killing things.

[Venice]

Or some inmate could rape him and kill him. :up: Since it seems he's so comfortable with murdering. :confused:

[bluejake01]

Or some inmate could rape him and kill him. :up: Since it seems he's so comfortable with murdering. :confused:

Will you never learn?

[Venice]

I guess not.

[TheCheshireCat]

Did you read the maddox article? You're a murderer too even if you don't think so

[cryptic name]

Yes...you see it was a joke. I was using the same extremism against her that she is using on everyone else.


oh. good show, old chap.

[cryptic name]

I think that humans should stop killing and consuming animals for the sake of balance amongst our small world. Look ten years from now and "cows" might become extinct. Even if their cycle of cow breeding continues to run years from now, it's f**kin cruel to have a living, breathing creature live out his destiny as a f**kin hamburger.
:rolleyes:

[cryptic name]

Once again, because I think it matters:

Our conciousness is all that truly exists. Matter is merely an illusion, an involuntary projection of our subconcious mind. Matter is the feeling of being limited. When we die, or in other words, when the illusion of our physical body can no longer resist the undeniable truth of the imaginary and temporary nature of the physical universe, our conciousness no longer feels limited, and expands, slowly and gradually, until it becomes one with the infinity of the universe. And our conciousness itself is merely the distinction of the inherent duality of all things, the distinction between wanting to remain separate from the rest of the universe, and simultaneously wanting to become one with the rest of the universe. Our apparent natural aging process is a representation of our life-long resistance towards the outside world, of our will to remain a separate individual with a personality of its own, and our death is merely the rest of the universe winning the battle over our ego, the perpetual battle between our selfishness and our selflessness.

if you know this as such a truism, then why can't you manipulate your reality to your liking?

[Rayne]

Unlike any of you, I grew up on a Fur Ranch, so I'm going to give my opinion, one with substance instead of tears or bloated masculinity.

My Grandfather, my mother's father, is the current President of the American Mink Council, a faction of the North American Fur Association. For the last 30+ years, he, along with my Grandmother, and then their two sons, have made a living out of the harvesting of mink & fox in Western Pennsylvania. Some of my earliest memories of life are wandering through the sheds and barns, inhaling the scent of the animals, amazed by their little lives. I've worked long, hot summers there, and bitter cold winters as well. I've fed, given water to, caught, killed, skinned, prepared those pelts...you name it. I've listened to the conversations I've had with my grandparents about the industry, the business, the difficulties, the struggles, the pride involved in doing what they do. I don't think any of you can say that. I've lived the life of a fur farmer...and it's not easy.

You know what the truth is? Fur ranching is no different from any occupation out there. Every morning, my 72-year old grandfather crawls out of bed with the sunrise, a hip needing replaced, carpal tunnel-ravaged wrists, hands, fingers, and arthritis ravaging his joints. My grandmother is not far behind, and they walk down to the farm, just like anyone else goes to their job, to begin their long, long day.

There's a lot that goes into managing a fur ranch. My grandfather is a genius. He's done a lot with his life...worked the coal mines, was a musician, an artist, a school-bus driver on the side, and now, for the last half of his life, a fur rancher. A businessman. Just making a living for him, his wife, his sons & daughters, his grandchildren. He works as hard or harder than anyone else I know...I'm 21 years old, a solidly-built young man and my pap will outwork me any day of the week.

I don't want to forget to mention that my grandparents and my uncles and their families are some of the nicest and most caring people I've ever met. Now you might think I'm saying that because they're family. This isn't true. I've met a lot of people in my short life, people from all over the world, from all kinds of backgrounds, from all walks of life. But I can genuinely tell you that I don't know more compassionate, more selfless, more hard-working and more well-rounded people than my family that's involved in the fur ranching industry.

PETA really angers me. The AFL angers me. They destroy people's livelihoods. It's like me taking out Honda dealerships so American companies can make more money. They're so outrageous, so flamboyant, so full of **** that it's not even funny.

You want to know what they've got right? The sizes of the cages some of these animals live in. That's about it. Everything else you read about is nearly a lie. I've spent hundreds of my days with these animals. I can honestly tell you that their living conditions are better than a lot of humans. They are fed continuously, at the same intervals, large heapings of feed, good, quality, nutritious food mixes. They're given plenty of water...in the hot days of summer, farm laborers...often young kids trying to make an extra buck...drag a rubber hose around a 20 acre farm 4 times a day to make sure the mink and fox have enough water. They're kept in pens, which are attached to boxes that have soft wood shavings for bedding. Their pens are cleaned out every summer and winter. Boxes have to be continuously repaired so they don't injure themselves or their coats. Each male mink has his own large-sized box & pen...a female one similar, although she will share her's with her young until they've grown to a size large enough to be separated, where they live in a pen & box with one other sibling. Their excrement is always being removed. The rows & rows of pens are housed under sheds that keep the hot sun from them and the cold snow off them in the winter.

One of the biggest arguments is the method of death imposed on these animals. I read on PETA's site how a fox or other animal remains alive after the inflicted method, "suffering excruciating pain" blah blah blah. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE??? It's complete bull****. Most mink are killed by gas inhalation. What happens is simple...the gas makes them slowly pass out, where eventually its potency causes death. Basically....they fall asleep and never wake up. If all of us were so lucky...

As for fox and the "rectal electrocution", this too is bull****. Once electrocuted, there is no feeling in the animal. It's as quick as a flick of the finger. They don't "endure a heart attack for five minutes" and that other bull**** that PETA tries to pass off. Don't let them blow the smoke up your skirt.

Fact is, the industry got hammered by hippies everywhere and so they changed. The old-timers may still break a neck here or there, but a lot of times it's so much quicker for the animal and safe for the handler.

I think it's very unfair what groups like PETA have inspired. About 6 years ago, my grandparents had to put their farm on the line just to finance security measures to safeguard attacks from groups like the ALF. I'm talking fences, barbed-wire, guards, dogs...this amidst one of the lowest periods of profit for fur ranchers worldwide. All to make a living. No retirement. No benefits. No pension plan or 401k. No vacations...definitely no vacations. Travel. Stress. And hard, hard work. My grandparents, well into their 70's, still wake up every morning to work that farm wiht my uncles. They hobble moreso than walk now, but they get there. When they pass, my uncles will pick up their reigns, and so on and so on. I applaud and respect unrelentlessy my grandparents for their hardwork and the legacy they've started and for the people they are. I cannot say the same for most of the other people I know in life...no matter what they make a career out of.

If anyone has REAL questions about the fur ranching industry, please feel free to ask....I'll be more than willing to give you a look from the inside.



BUY FUR!


Thanks.

[jaguarr]

Or some inmate could rape him and kill him. :up: Since it seems he's so comfortable with murdering. :confused:

Spoken with irrationalism like a true zealot.

jag

[Wiseman]

Unlike any of you, I grew up on a Fur Ranch, so I'm going to give my opinion, one with substance instead of tears or bloated masculinity.

My Grandfather, my mother's father, is the current President of the American Mink Council, a faction of the North American Fur Association. For the last 30+ years, he, along with my Grandmother, and then their two sons, have made a living out of the harvesting of mink & fox in Western Pennsylvania. Some of my earliest memories of life are wandering through the sheds and barns, inhaling the scent of the animals, amazed by their little lives. I've worked long, hot summers there, and bitter cold winters as well. I've fed, given water to, caught, killed, skinned, prepared those pelts...you name it. I've listened to the conversations I've had with my grandparents about the industry, the business, the difficulties, the struggles, the pride involved in doing what they do. I don't think any of you can say that. I've lived the life of a fur farmer...and it's not easy.

You know what the truth is? Fur ranching is no different from any occupation out there. Every morning, my 72-year old grandfather crawls out of bed with the sunrise, a hip needing replaced, carpal tunnel-ravaged wrists, hands, fingers, and arthritis ravaging his joints. My grandmother is not far behind, and they walk down to the farm, just like anyone else goes to their job, to begin their long, long day.

There's a lot that goes into managing a fur ranch. My grandfather is a genius. He's done a lot with his life...worked the coal mines, was a musician, an artist, a school-bus driver on the side, and now, for the last half of his life, a fur rancher. A businessman. Just making a living for him, his wife, his sons & daughters, his grandchildren. He works as hard or harder than anyone else I know...I'm 21 years old, a solidly-built young man and my pap will outwork me any day of the week.

I don't want to forget to mention that my grandparents and my uncles and their families are some of the nicest and most caring people I've ever met. Now you might think I'm saying that because they're family. This isn't true. I've met a lot of people in my short life, people from all over the world, from all kinds of backgrounds, from all walks of life. But I can genuinely tell you that I don't know more compassionate, more selfless, more hard-working and more well-rounded people than my family that's involved in the fur ranching industry.

PETA really angers me. The AFL angers me. They destroy people's livelihoods. It's like me taking out Honda dealerships so American companies can make more money. They're so outrageous, so flamboyant, so full of **** that it's not even funny.

You want to know what they've got right? The sizes of the cages some of these animals live in. That's about it. Everything else you read about is nearly a lie. I've spent hundreds of my days with these animals. I can honestly tell you that their living conditions are better than a lot of humans. They are fed continuously, at the same intervals, large heapings of feed, good, quality, nutritious food mixes. They're given plenty of water...in the hot days of summer, farm laborers...often young kids trying to make an extra buck...drag a rubber hose around a 20 acre farm 4 times a day to make sure the mink and fox have enough water. They're kept in pens, which are attached to boxes that have soft wood shavings for bedding. Their pens are cleaned out every summer and winter. Boxes have to be continuously repaired so they don't injure themselves or their coats. Each male mink has his own large-sized box & pen...a female one similar, although she will share her's with her young until they've grown to a size large enough to be separated, where they live in a pen & box with one other sibling. Their excrement is always being removed. The rows & rows of pens are housed under sheds that keep the hot sun from them and the cold snow off them in the winter.

One of the biggest arguments is the method of death imposed on these animals. I read on PETA's site how a fox or other animal remains alive after the inflicted method, "suffering excruciating pain" blah blah blah. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE??? It's complete bull****. Most mink are killed by gas inhalation. What happens is simple...the gas makes them slowly pass out, where eventually its potency causes death. Basically....they fall asleep and never wake up. If all of us were so lucky...

As for fox and the "rectal electrocution", this too is bull****. Once electrocuted, there is no feeling in the animal. It's as quick as a flick of the finger. They don't "endure a heart attack for five minutes" and that other bull**** that PETA tries to pass off. Don't let them blow the smoke up your skirt.

Fact is, the industry got hammered by hippies everywhere and so they changed. The old-timers may still break a neck here or there, but a lot of times it's so much quicker for the animal and safe for the handler.

I think it's very unfair what groups like PETA have inspired. About 6 years ago, my grandparents had to put their farm on the line just to finance security measures to safeguard attacks from groups like the ALF. I'm talking fences, barbed-wire, guards, dogs...this amidst one of the lowest periods of profit for fur ranchers worldwide. All to make a living. No retirement. No benefits. No pension plan or 401k. No vacations...definitely no vacations. Travel. Stress. And hard, hard work. My grandparents, well into their 70's, still wake up every morning to work that farm wiht my uncles. They hobble moreso than walk now, but they get there. When they pass, my uncles will pick up their reigns, and so on and so on. I applaud and respect unrelentlessy my grandparents for their hardwork and the legacy they've started and for the people they are. I cannot say the same for most of the other people I know in life...no matter what they make a career out of.

If anyone has REAL questions about the fur ranching industry, please feel free to ask....I'll be more than willing to give you a look from the inside.



BUY FUR!


Thanks.

Wow, thank you for that very inciteful post. I applaud your family for being such hard working people.

[cryptic name]

Unlike any of you, I grew up on a Fur Ranch, so I'm going to give my opinion, one with substance instead of tears or bloated masculinity.

My Grandfather, my mother's father, is the current President of the American Mink Council, a faction of the North American Fur Association. For the last 30+ years, he, along with my Grandmother, and then their two sons, have made a living out of the harvesting of mink & fox in Western Pennsylvania. Some of my earliest memories of life are wandering through the sheds and barns, inhaling the scent of the animals, amazed by their little lives. I've worked long, hot summers there, and bitter cold winters as well. I've fed, given water to, caught, killed, skinned, prepared those pelts...you name it. I've listened to the conversations I've had with my grandparents about the industry, the business, the difficulties, the struggles, the pride involved in doing what they do. I don't think any of you can say that. I've lived the life of a fur farmer...and it's not easy.

You know what the truth is? Fur ranching is no different from any occupation out there. Every morning, my 72-year old grandfather crawls out of bed with the sunrise, a hip needing replaced, carpal tunnel-ravaged wrists, hands, fingers, and arthritis ravaging his joints. My grandmother is not far behind, and they walk down to the farm, just like anyone else goes to their job, to begin their long, long day.

There's a lot that goes into managing a fur ranch. My grandfather is a genius. He's done a lot with his life...worked the coal mines, was a musician, an artist, a school-bus driver on the side, and now, for the last half of his life, a fur rancher. A businessman. Just making a living for him, his wife, his sons & daughters, his grandchildren. He works as hard or harder than anyone else I know...I'm 21 years old, a solidly-built young man and my pap will outwork me any day of the week.

I don't want to forget to mention that my grandparents and my uncles and their families are some of the nicest and most caring people I've ever met. Now you might think I'm saying that because they're family. This isn't true. I've met a lot of people in my short life, people from all over the world, from all kinds of backgrounds, from all walks of life. But I can genuinely tell you that I don't know more compassionate, more selfless, more hard-working and more well-rounded people than my family that's involved in the fur ranching industry.

PETA really angers me. The AFL angers me. They destroy people's livelihoods. It's like me taking out Honda dealerships so American companies can make more money. They're so outrageous, so flamboyant, so full of **** that it's not even funny.

You want to know what they've got right? The sizes of the cages some of these animals live in. That's about it. Everything else you read about is nearly a lie. I've spent hundreds of my days with these animals. I can honestly tell you that their living conditions are better than a lot of humans. They are fed continuously, at the same intervals, large heapings of feed, good, quality, nutritious food mixes. They're given plenty of water...in the hot days of summer, farm laborers...often young kids trying to make an extra buck...drag a rubber hose around a 20 acre farm 4 times a day to make sure the mink and fox have enough water. They're kept in pens, which are attached to boxes that have soft wood shavings for bedding. Their pens are cleaned out every summer and winter. Boxes have to be continuously repaired so they don't injure themselves or their coats. Each male mink has his own large-sized box & pen...a female one similar, although she will share her's with her young until they've grown to a size large enough to be separated, where they live in a pen & box with one other sibling. Their excrement is always being removed. The rows & rows of pens are housed under sheds that keep the hot sun from them and the cold snow off them in the winter.

One of the biggest arguments is the method of death imposed on these animals. I read on PETA's site how a fox or other animal remains alive after the inflicted method, "suffering excruciating pain" blah blah blah. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE??? It's complete bull****. Most mink are killed by gas inhalation. What happens is simple...the gas makes them slowly pass out, where eventually its potency causes death. Basically....they fall asleep and never wake up. If all of us were so lucky...

As for fox and the "rectal electrocution", this too is bull****. Once electrocuted, there is no feeling in the animal. It's as quick as a flick of the finger. They don't "endure a heart attack for five minutes" and that other bull**** that PETA tries to pass off. Don't let them blow the smoke up your skirt.

Fact is, the industry got hammered by hippies everywhere and so they changed. The old-timers may still break a neck here or there, but a lot of times it's so much quicker for the animal and safe for the handler.

I think it's very unfair what groups like PETA have inspired. About 6 years ago, my grandparents had to put their farm on the line just to finance security measures to safeguard attacks from groups like the ALF. I'm talking fences, barbed-wire, guards, dogs...this amidst one of the lowest periods of profit for fur ranchers worldwide. All to make a living. No retirement. No benefits. No pension plan or 401k. No vacations...definitely no vacations. Travel. Stress. And hard, hard work. My grandparents, well into their 70's, still wake up every morning to work that farm wiht my uncles. They hobble moreso than walk now, but they get there. When they pass, my uncles will pick up their reigns, and so on and so on. I applaud and respect unrelentlessy my grandparents for their hardwork and the legacy they've started and for the people they are. I cannot say the same for most of the other people I know in life...no matter what they make a career out of.

If anyone has REAL questions about the fur ranching industry, please feel free to ask....I'll be more than willing to give you a look from the inside.



BUY FUR!


Thanks.


excellent post :up:

[jaguarr]

excellent post :up:

Definitely an excellent post. Thank you!

jag

[Sarge]

Unlike any of you, I grew up on a Fur Ranch, so I'm going to give my opinion, one with substance instead of tears or bloated masculinity.

My Grandfather, my mother's father, is the current President of the American Mink Council, a faction of the North American Fur Association. For the last 30+ years, he, along with my Grandmother, and then their two sons, have made a living out of the harvesting of mink & fox in Western Pennsylvania. Some of my earliest memories of life are wandering through the sheds and barns, inhaling the scent of the animals, amazed by their little lives. I've worked long, hot summers there, and bitter cold winters as well. I've fed, given water to, caught, killed, skinned, prepared those pelts...you name it. I've listened to the conversations I've had with my grandparents about the industry, the business, the difficulties, the struggles, the pride involved in doing what they do. I don't think any of you can say that. I've lived the life of a fur farmer...and it's not easy.

You know what the truth is? Fur ranching is no different from any occupation out there. Every morning, my 72-year old grandfather crawls out of bed with the sunrise, a hip needing replaced, carpal tunnel-ravaged wrists, hands, fingers, and arthritis ravaging his joints. My grandmother is not far behind, and they walk down to the farm, just like anyone else goes to their job, to begin their long, long day.

There's a lot that goes into managing a fur ranch. My grandfather is a genius. He's done a lot with his life...worked the coal mines, was a musician, an artist, a school-bus driver on the side, and now, for the last half of his life, a fur rancher. A businessman. Just making a living for him, his wife, his sons & daughters, his grandchildren. He works as hard or harder than anyone else I know...I'm 21 years old, a solidly-built young man and my pap will outwork me any day of the week.

I don't want to forget to mention that my grandparents and my uncles and their families are some of the nicest and most caring people I've ever met. Now you might think I'm saying that because they're family. This isn't true. I've met a lot of people in my short life, people from all over the world, from all kinds of backgrounds, from all walks of life. But I can genuinely tell you that I don't know more compassionate, more selfless, more hard-working and more well-rounded people than my family that's involved in the fur ranching industry.

PETA really angers me. The AFL angers me. They destroy people's livelihoods. It's like me taking out Honda dealerships so American companies can make more money. They're so outrageous, so flamboyant, so full of **** that it's not even funny.

You want to know what they've got right? The sizes of the cages some of these animals live in. That's about it. Everything else you read about is nearly a lie. I've spent hundreds of my days with these animals. I can honestly tell you that their living conditions are better than a lot of humans. They are fed continuously, at the same intervals, large heapings of feed, good, quality, nutritious food mixes. They're given plenty of water...in the hot days of summer, farm laborers...often young kids trying to make an extra buck...drag a rubber hose around a 20 acre farm 4 times a day to make sure the mink and fox have enough water. They're kept in pens, which are attached to boxes that have soft wood shavings for bedding. Their pens are cleaned out every summer and winter. Boxes have to be continuously repaired so they don't injure themselves or their coats. Each male mink has his own large-sized box & pen...a female one similar, although she will share her's with her young until they've grown to a size large enough to be separated, where they live in a pen & box with one other sibling. Their excrement is always being removed. The rows & rows of pens are housed under sheds that keep the hot sun from them and the cold snow off them in the winter.

One of the biggest arguments is the method of death imposed on these animals. I read on PETA's site how a fox or other animal remains alive after the inflicted method, "suffering excruciating pain" blah blah blah. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE??? It's complete bull****. Most mink are killed by gas inhalation. What happens is simple...the gas makes them slowly pass out, where eventually its potency causes death. Basically....they fall asleep and never wake up. If all of us were so lucky...

As for fox and the "rectal electrocution", this too is bull****. Once electrocuted, there is no feeling in the animal. It's as quick as a flick of the finger. They don't "endure a heart attack for five minutes" and that other bull**** that PETA tries to pass off. Don't let them blow the smoke up your skirt.

Fact is, the industry got hammered by hippies everywhere and so they changed. The old-timers may still break a neck here or there, but a lot of times it's so much quicker for the animal and safe for the handler.

I think it's very unfair what groups like PETA have inspired. About 6 years ago, my grandparents had to put their farm on the line just to finance security measures to safeguard attacks from groups like the ALF. I'm talking fences, barbed-wire, guards, dogs...this amidst one of the lowest periods of profit for fur ranchers worldwide. All to make a living. No retirement. No benefits. No pension plan or 401k. No vacations...definitely no vacations. Travel. Stress. And hard, hard work. My grandparents, well into their 70's, still wake up every morning to work that farm wiht my uncles. They hobble moreso than walk now, but they get there. When they pass, my uncles will pick up their reigns, and so on and so on. I applaud and respect unrelentlessy my grandparents for their hardwork and the legacy they've started and for the people they are. I cannot say the same for most of the other people I know in life...no matter what they make a career out of.

If anyone has REAL questions about the fur ranching industry, please feel free to ask....I'll be more than willing to give you a look from the inside.



BUY FUR!


Thanks.
One of the best posts on the hype....ever :up:

[the defenders]

Unlike any of you, I grew up on a Fur Ranch, so I'm going to give my opinion, one with substance instead of tears or bloated masculinity.

My Grandfather, my mother's father, is the current President of the American Mink Council, a faction of the North American Fur Association. For the last 30+ years, he, along with my Grandmother, and then their two sons, have made a living out of the harvesting of mink & fox in Western Pennsylvania. Some of my earliest memories of life are wandering through the sheds and barns, inhaling the scent of the animals, amazed by their little lives. I've worked long, hot summers there, and bitter cold winters as well. I've fed, given water to, caught, killed, skinned, prepared those pelts...you name it. I've listened to the conversations I've had with my grandparents about the industry, the business, the difficulties, the struggles, the pride involved in doing what they do. I don't think any of you can say that. I've lived the life of a fur farmer...and it's not easy.

You know what the truth is? Fur ranching is no different from any occupation out there. Every morning, my 72-year old grandfather crawls out of bed with the sunrise, a hip needing replaced, carpal tunnel-ravaged wrists, hands, fingers, and arthritis ravaging his joints. My grandmother is not far behind, and they walk down to the farm, just like anyone else goes to their job, to begin their long, long day.

There's a lot that goes into managing a fur ranch. My grandfather is a genius. He's done a lot with his life...worked the coal mines, was a musician, an artist, a school-bus driver on the side, and now, for the last half of his life, a fur rancher. A businessman. Just making a living for him, his wife, his sons & daughters, his grandchildren. He works as hard or harder than anyone else I know...I'm 21 years old, a solidly-built young man and my pap will outwork me any day of the week.

I don't want to forget to mention that my grandparents and my uncles and their families are some of the nicest and most caring people I've ever met. Now you might think I'm saying that because they're family. This isn't true. I've met a lot of people in my short life, people from all over the world, from all kinds of backgrounds, from all walks of life. But I can genuinely tell you that I don't know more compassionate, more selfless, more hard-working and more well-rounded people than my family that's involved in the fur ranching industry.

PETA really angers me. The AFL angers me. They destroy people's livelihoods. It's like me taking out Honda dealerships so American companies can make more money. They're so outrageous, so flamboyant, so full of **** that it's not even funny.

You want to know what they've got right? The sizes of the cages some of these animals live in. That's about it. Everything else you read about is nearly a lie. I've spent hundreds of my days with these animals. I can honestly tell you that their living conditions are better than a lot of humans. They are fed continuously, at the same intervals, large heapings of feed, good, quality, nutritious food mixes. They're given plenty of water...in the hot days of summer, farm laborers...often young kids trying to make an extra buck...drag a rubber hose around a 20 acre farm 4 times a day to make sure the mink and fox have enough water. They're kept in pens, which are attached to boxes that have soft wood shavings for bedding. Their pens are cleaned out every summer and winter. Boxes have to be continuously repaired so they don't injure themselves or their coats. Each male mink has his own large-sized box & pen...a female one similar, although she will share her's with her young until they've grown to a size large enough to be separated, where they live in a pen & box with one other sibling. Their excrement is always being removed. The rows & rows of pens are housed under sheds that keep the hot sun from them and the cold snow off them in the winter.

One of the biggest arguments is the method of death imposed on these animals. I read on PETA's site how a fox or other animal remains alive after the inflicted method, "suffering excruciating pain" blah blah blah. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE??? It's complete bull****. Most mink are killed by gas inhalation. What happens is simple...the gas makes them slowly pass out, where eventually its potency causes death. Basically....they fall asleep and never wake up. If all of us were so lucky...

As for fox and the "rectal electrocution", this too is bull****. Once electrocuted, there is no feeling in the animal. It's as quick as a flick of the finger. They don't "endure a heart attack for five minutes" and that other bull**** that PETA tries to pass off. Don't let them blow the smoke up your skirt.

Fact is, the industry got hammered by hippies everywhere and so they changed. The old-timers may still break a neck here or there, but a lot of times it's so much quicker for the animal and safe for the handler.

I think it's very unfair what groups like PETA have inspired. About 6 years ago, my grandparents had to put their farm on the line just to finance security measures to safeguard attacks from groups like the ALF. I'm talking fences, barbed-wire, guards, dogs...this amidst one of the lowest periods of profit for fur ranchers worldwide. All to make a living. No retirement. No benefits. No pension plan or 401k. No vacations...definitely no vacations. Travel. Stress. And hard, hard work. My grandparents, well into their 70's, still wake up every morning to work that farm wiht my uncles. They hobble moreso than walk now, but they get there. When they pass, my uncles will pick up their reigns, and so on and so on. I applaud and respect unrelentlessy my grandparents for their hardwork and the legacy they've started and for the people they are. I cannot say the same for most of the other people I know in life...no matter what they make a career out of.

If anyone has REAL questions about the fur ranching industry, please feel free to ask....I'll be more than willing to give you a look from the inside.



BUY FUR!


Thanks.

So, what if we oppose the fact that the animals are being killed? Is that wrong. I'm sorry if I feel that it's inhumane. Jesus Christ. You said at the beginning of the thread that you wouldn't play to tears of whatever. Okay, your grandpa works hard. Good for him. So did mine. I'm sorry that ALF is ruining his business, although I can understand ALF actions. But you make it out as PETA and ALF are only out to hurt your grandfather. We care about animals a great deal. We see these practices as inhumane. If you have a problem with that, then move to a country where we can't be able to voice our disapproval. Listen, I don't think you're wrong or I'm right. It's all my opinion. You seem to think PETA is wrong and you are right. And that's the difference.