Should Batman have been able to beat Captain America?

[Dr. Fate]

Yes or no?

[slipalong]

yes.

every time.

[ElectroFlare]

No, I don't believe so. Batman carries around a lot more gear, which would impare his martial arts to a higher degree then Cap's shield and chainmail.

Also to the fact that Cap has more expierence in hand to hand combat, even though Batman knows more styles.

And one more fact-Cap doesn't fatigue as easily as normal humans.

[slipalong]

Neither does Batman.

F**K fighting styles or prep time. Batman is just prepared to fight dirty.

[Varient]

To be fair:

I believe whoever gets first licks,...

Even though in a one on one dust up with both starting prepared from a cold stat,.. Captain America BETTER beat Batman.

[slipalong]

Nah, I just think Bats would manage it every time.

[overboard]

aptain America would try to follow the rules.And even though his strength and speed is better,Batman would do whatever it would take to win.In the end it would depend on what they were fighting for

[Dr.Fear]

mmm yeah ill go wih bats.cao and bats are the perfwect human specimens, except cap cant age, right? i dunno i heard he was frozen during WW2 and they reveived him and he didnt even age, so can he age now or what?

[ElectroFlare]

Neither does Batman.

Actually, yes, Batman does fatigue at the normal human rate of an incredible athlete...unless DC has turned him in a metahuman now...

[slipalong]

But the super soldier serum, only puts Cap at peak human effiency. Ergo, they're pretty evenly matched and would tire at a similar rate.

Bats is more skilled at fighting methods. Cap has more experience. Bats fights dirty. Cap doesn't.

Bat's would take it.

[CaptainStacy]

Heh. ALL of Captain America's Foes fight dirty, so "dirty fighting" doesn't nescessarily guarantee anything for Batman.

Cap is stronger, faster, has quicker reflexes, and FAR superior endurance. And he's certainly on par with Batman skill-wise.

Cap's even a better strategist, as evidenced with Cap taking command of both the Avengers AND JLA in that recent cross-over.

I think Cap has an excellent chance of winning any and all encounters with the Dark Knight.

[slipalong]

Excellent chance yes. As I said, they're evenl;y matched, but I think that bats is better skilled in most areas to take the victory.

[kgcarini]

Excellent chance yes. As I said, they're evenl;y matched, but I think that bats is better skilled in most areas to take the victory.


They are in no way evenly matched. The supersoilder serum gives him "super" powers my friend. No way does Batman have a chance with Captain America and if you want to get technical Batman would never win under ANY circumstances against Ultimate Captain America no matter the prep time Batman took. Thats the way the cookie crumble! :cool:

[slipalong]

Not according to Marvel. It puts him at peak physical ability. But human nevertheless. Something that Batman has reached through his training.

Oh, and we're not talking about Ult. versions of anyone. It's already been established that Ult. Cap is far stronger than his 616 counterpart while Ult. Hulk is far weaker.

[roach]

I never understood how the claim that Bats fights dirty so that's how he'd beat Cap. My money is on Cap. Captain America through scientific means has come so close to being a superhuman without being superhuman. Cap is THE pinnacle of human perfection. Now Bats trained his body hard and took hie body to be as perfect as he could be with his body. No matter how much exercize you do you'll never become THE pinnacle of human perfection. No human could be faster or stronger than Cap.To me all the stunts Neo could do in the first Matrix movie are things Cap should be able to do. And while everyone latches onto the "Preptime" theory of Bats I like to think that Cap is the best at "battlefield adjustments". Meaning that Cap has so mastered the art of tactics that he can make split second decisions during a fight. Hard to prepare to fight someone who can change tactics as fast as you can breathe. That's just my take

[slipalong]

I forgot that this was on the Marvel boards... :rolleyes:

I just think that Bats is in a better position to win any confrontation with Cap.

Pure and simple.

[kgcarini]

[QUOTE=slipalong]I forgot that this was on the Marvel boards... :rolleyes: QUOTE]


lol :)

[slipalong]

I like Cap, but I thought with Bats using the darkness to camouflage him for his attacks, that it was one of the only fights that went how it should in the whole Marvel vs DC debacle.

[roach]

Captain America is one half step away from being superhuman...I dont see Bats that close. I dont see in any shape or form how Batman could take any fight.

[slipalong]

But that's it. Cap is still only human. Cap is a great battle tactician, but that's when he's leading a force. Solo, he's an accplished fighter. But then so is Bats.

[NightRiver]

Captain America should beat Batman the same way Deathstroke beat the hell out of Batman. Cap(like DeathStroke) is enhanced, hes faster and stronger.

[roach]

Tactics can be solo or battle field....

[CaptainStacy]

Even Marvel vs DC clearly showed Batman struggling to keep up with Captain America...in fact, Bats only "won" because a water main just happened to conviently burst onto Cap, throwing him off balance.

That was more a popularity contest than anything else.

I think Batman backing down from Cap in JLA/Avengers was a much fairer representation.

[Majin Boo]

Even Marvel vs DC clearly showed Batman struggling to keep up with Captain America...in fact, Bats only "won" because a water main just happened to conviently burst onto Cap, throwing him off balance.

That was more a popularity contest than anything else.

I think Batman backing down from Cap in JLA/Avengers was a much fairer representation.

no, Batman won in the comic because people voted that way :batman: .
Anyways, I give it to cap.

[roach]

hence the phrase
"That was more a popularity contest than anything else."

[BrianWilly]

Someone told me on these boards that 616 Cap America is capable of bench-pressing half a ton or something...that's about 1000 pounds. According to this page (http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/batman/batman.html), Batman presses "approximately 750 pounds." So in terms of physical strength, Cap whoops Bats. I don't even think normal human should be able to bench 1000 pounds...the world record is something like 514. If that's true, then in terms of physical strength Cap is definitely super/metahuman, whereas Batman is not.

I'm not saying that that's going to be the deciding factor in a fight between them, just trying to quiet all those people going "Caps and Batman are physically evenly matched!!!!!!1111" because they're not.

[slipalong]

I was the only one saying that Brian.

And they are!! So there.

:D

[BrianWilly]

Sure...if it'll make you happier, why not:p.

Incidentally, from the marveldirectory.com
Abilities: Captain America has agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.Another falsehood struck down;): Cap does have metahuman endurance.

[ElectroFlare]

Someone told me on these boards that 616 Cap America is capable of bench-pressing half a ton or something...that's about 1000 pounds. According to this page (http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/batman/batman.html), Batman presses "approximately 750 pounds." So in terms of physical strength, Cap whoops Bats. I don't even think normal human should be able to bench 1000 pounds...the world record is something like 514. If that's true, then in terms of physical strength Cap is definitely super/metahuman, whereas Batman is not.

I'm not saying that that's going to be the deciding factor in a fight between them, just trying to quiet all those people going "Caps and Batman are physically evenly matched!!!!!!1111" because they're not.
So lifting approxiamtely 750 lbs isn't super human, but 1000 is? You pointed out the record is 514...by this measurement, Bats is super human.

But the super soldier serum, only puts Cap at peak human effiency. Ergo, they're pretty evenly matched and would tire at a similar rate.

Cap does not fatigue like a normal human...that is another benefit of the super soldier serum...sorry if I keep bringing that up...but I feel as though its been tossed to the wayside...here's my point...

A boxing round is 3 minutes wrong.(Or 2 minutes...not a boxing fan). Boxers are people that are in the best shape a person possibly could be, much like Batman. After a few(I use that word loosely) rounds(with breaks), the fighters begin to tire and wrap up together more often. Cap would not be adverse to this effect, whereas Bats would. Now, with Bats willpower/determination being what it is, he will keep going for a long time, but no where near as long as Cap can go.

Oh, and it is pretty much the best way to describe a fight between the two with Bats ducking in and out of the darkness...that makes sense...

[roach]

while these arent the records a search will bring up a man who can dead lift 910lbs for 3 reps, 947lbs for 1 rep and squat 1102lbs

[goldmill]

...the world record is something like 514.



Actually the world powerlifting record is a tad over 900 in Bench Press. I believe it was set during the summer of last year(just FYI).

As far as the topic goes, here is my comparison....

Batman and Captain America in my opinion are pretty evenly matched skillwise. People often state Cap has more experience but I don't really see how. Batman has been fighting crime for years and studied many different fighting styles for even longer facing a wide range of opponents. I do give Bats a tad edge here though simply because he has a better knowledge of more styles.

Strength, speed and agility goes to Cap naturally thanks to the serum. I think Batman can make up for this some with his gadgets but it can be argued that with Cap's shield that is canceled out as well.

The bottom line to me is it comes down to endurance and Cap has the huge advantage there. Batman has beaten stronger and faster foes as well as foes who were fighting experts but to beat a man that has all of that and doesn't wear down is pretty damn tough. This is the same reason why Deathstroke can best Batman at least half the time. Cap and Slade have almost everything that Bats has plus enhanced abilities. Hard to compete there. I do think that Batman could pull of a few victories though depending on where they occurred. I give it to Caps 7/10 times.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Tough fight, but Cap takes it EVERY time.

It's funny when people say fighting dirty would give Bats the win. Like the SS didn't fight dirty.

And lets face it; knowing dozens of styles (redundant and unnessesary) and beating up on the Joker does not equal combat experiance in major WWII battles.

It's just that simple.

[goldmill]

while these arent the records a search will bring up a man who can dead lift 910lbs for 3 reps, 947lbs for 1 rep and squat 1102lbs

Thanks for the actual numbers. THose are pretty clost to the records I believe. Of course those aren't raw numbers. THey include suits, wraps, belts and so on to provide the body extra support to lift the weight. THe numbers minus the equipment are about 1-200 pounds lower.

Still good stuff though.

[captainrogers]

Wow. Lot of good points here on both sides of the debate. Although it seems that most see Batman as Cap's counterpart, I've always felt that Deathstroke was Cap's match. Hmmm.......Cap vs. Bats, I say Cap wins 6/10 fights, for all the reasons already stated, and because I like Cap better! (Hey it's an honest answer, right? :) )

[kang604]

Are their weapons involved? like Cap's shield and can Batman use anything in his utility belt?

If it's hand to hand, no weapons, I think Cap wins. He's peak human... meaning u find the fastest olympic level athlete in the world, cap's faster, the strongest, cap's stronger... Batman, while being in exceptional form, is not a Super-Soldier. If he has the use of his utility belt, I think he'll win, but fist-to-fist, Cap will win... but not by much.

a good fight.

[Victor Von Doom]

I dunno, probably cause even though they are probably evenly matched physically and tactically, Batman would probaly just gas him somehow.

He's got too many gadgets not to be ready for someone who's just as good as he is.

[CaptainStacy]

Red Skull has tried gassing Cap before.

Didn't work.

And Red Skull's a LOT more ruthless than Batman is.

[Victor Von Doom]

Batman is so deviant that i think he could make it work. He's Captain contingency, which is why i think it could happen.

[kang604]

^^ btw, nice avy. mighty mos def u know the deal

[Spike_x1]

IMO, it depends on the conditions of the fight.

If they were fighting at night, in the darkness, then I'd give it to Batman in a second. He's got his lenses to see a lot better in the dark than with the naked eye, giving him an essential advantage.

However, if it were in a well-lit area, the fight would be much more difficult and closely matched.

Batman (on a regular night, without preptime)
-Almost peak human strength and intelligence. Trained in all known fighting disciplines. Expert tactician and scientist.
-A weighted cape, used as a offensive and defensive weapon. Also contains other numerous weapons and gadgets.
-Lenses capable of giving an instant physical (not physiological) description of an opponent and anything in the line of sight.
-fire and bullet resistant armor.
-Gloves and boots contain numerous weapons and gadgets.
-And of course the belt. Grappling hooks, an assortment of batarangs, chemical bombs and sprays, explosives.

Captain America
-Peak human strength and superhuman endurance. Expert tactician. Trained in many fighting desciplines. Experience.
-Vibranium shield.
-Bullet and fire resistant armor.

In an even situation, I think it would depend on motivation. What would both of them be fighting for?

[Zoken]

Okay, I am an adamant Marvel fan, and I have to say Batman. Smarter, faster, more experienced at fighting Meta-humans.

and yes Cap is a metahuman, Super-Soldier Serum.

[Victor Von Doom]

I don't think that Batman is faster, or more experienced at fighting meta-humans.

Also the only reason that i give the edge to Bats is that he's prolly the only hero that does not go without prep time.

As a matter of fact he probaly sits around at night thinking "Now what if i came across an opponent who's the perfect physical speciman with a tactical military mind, and maybe he has some kind of shield for a weapon. Now how would i beat him?"

Though i'll be cap can take more punishment than Bats can.

Though Batman is like Jackie Chan, using the environment to his advantage.

Though Cap did spend half a century in a block of ice.

Though Batman does have a butler.

[NightRiver]

Though Batman does have a butler.

Hey Cap had Jarvis in the mansion. :)

[slipalong]

Yeah, but that's Tony Stark's butler!!

He doesn't have his own like my main man Bruce!!

Loser :rolleyes:

[stiltman]

Should he? Well, since the whole thing was based on fans votes, yes. Bats sells more than Cap. No-brainer, right?

Could he? Well, it's not like it was a huge upset. Not like Cap lost to Willie Lumpkin. Normally, I'd give the edge to Cap swing-state close, like 52-48. In a straight up fight, I'd like Cap all the way. But Batman has gadgets, and I'm a sucker for gadgets, so that evens things out some. But breaking it down scientifically:

1. Servants. Both have butlers, but Jarvis could take Alfred anyday. Wasn't there and issue of Avengers, around issue #200 or so, where Jarvis defends the Avengers mansion by himself? Plus, Jarvis can take a beating too, as seen in Avengers #276-280. No way Alfred can take a whoppin' like Jarvis. Edge: Cap.

2. Residency. Both live in mansions, but really, Batman has a cave, and Cap doesn't. Sort of his own personal lair. Lairs rule. No Cap-cave makes this one easy. Edge: Bats.

3. "Sidekicks". Or "Partners", if you prefer. Both palled around with teenage boys who wear tights. Creepy. Very creepy. Like can-be-used-as-MJ's-defense creepy. I can just see it now on Court TV, MJ saying "See, your honor? Those boys were just my sidekicks." Tough call, but Cap's "sidekick" has been dead for some time, and he hasn't gone back to that well yet. Hmm, ok, there was Nomad for a while. However, there have been like thirty-three or so different Robins. Bats has some serious problems, me thinks. Edge: Cap.

4. Mode of transportation. The quinjet is cool, but Cap can only get the keys to it when Vision isn't out hot-doggin'. Otherwise, Cap doesn't get around very well. Plus, the Quinjet isn't exactly ideal for picking up a date/hooker. However, show-up in the Batmobile, and you're sure to score early and often. Chicks, and dudes in tights apparently, love the car. Edge: Bats.

5. Movie franchise. Not so fast. Yeah, Bats has four feature films to his credit, but only the first one was great. The second, good, but really, penguins with rocket launchers? Third and fourth, well.......they sucked hard. Like enough to make me forget that the first one was so cool. However, the Captain America movie had.......an Italian Red Skull. And huge fake ears on Cap's costume. And then there was that whole thing where Cap is strapped to that rocket headed for DC, sees that kid, alters the rockets path at the last second, and years later after being thawed out, instantly recognizes that kid, who's now an old man. And did I mention the fake ears? Ok, Cap is the better movie to watch completely intoxicated, but I'll still give the nod Batman, just based on box office receipts alone(something like $747,043,058 to $0). Still, Albert Pyun is a head and shoulders better director than Joel Schumaker anyday. Check out "Face Smasher: A Love Story", starring Terri Hatcher and the Dice-Man, for proof. Edge: Bats. Barely.

6. Villains. Bats has the Joker, and Penguin, and some other guys. Most are solid villains. Ok, not sure I ever got the Penguin. He's all fat and has trick umbrellas. Still, Bats list of baddies is colorful at the least. However, Cap's list of baddies is simple: Foreigners. Specifically, Germans(remember, kids, Germans are evil!), with a dash of French thrown in for good measure, maybe the occasional Russian or Arab here and there, depending on the political climate at the time. Every one of Cap's villains are Nazis, and 87% of them all are named "Baron von Something Something". Batman's list of baddies is cool, but they don't get me chanting "USA! USA!" like Cap's does. Cap's villains allow for the the word "jingoism" to be used liberally, and with pride! Edge: Cap.

7. Personality. Personality goes a long way. Bats is all dark and brooding, a tortured soul, still peeved at the loss of his parents some sixty years ago now, and is always at the ready to exact some vigilante-style justice. Smart, not impulsive, a careful planner. Tough to top someone so determined. But Cap has the one thing Bats lacks: Moxie! Moxie, in spades. That can-do spirit of his time, the "roll-up our sleaves, nothing a little elbow-grease can't fix" attitude. Sure, Cap may be all against women's lib and legalizing alcohol, but he's got moxie, dammit. That, and really Bats, who's fault was it that your folks got whacked? Cap would tell him to quit being such a sissy-girl and move on! Edge: Cap!

Winner: Cap over Bats, 4-3.

There you have it, folks. Scientific proof that Cap would have, could have, and should have, beaten Batman. Batman might take Captain America to Game 7, but in the end, Cap would be just too much for the Caped Crusader to handle. The facts are indisputable.

[goldmill]

Stiltman, that is one of the weirdest breakdowns I have ever seen. LOL.

But in spirit, Alfred is no slouch. The guy was formerly a spy for England and therefore has extensive training in the area.

Second, Batman's rogues are by far the best in the comic world. In DC, only Flash has a rogue gallery that could compete and in Marvel I would say Spiderman could give him a run for his money. No other hero has as well developed heroes as Batman.

[KAD]

Fanboys, fanboys.


Bats is very close to Cap in fighting ability.

May know more styles but hasn't been in as many or as varied as the fights cap was in.

Hand to hand always Cap.


Oh and by the way you ever hear of, The Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Batroc OOPs

[slipalong]

Btman baby!! oh yeah!

[KAD]

Btman baby!! oh yeah!


Slipalong not to take jab but you've got fanboy written all over you.

Realistically it's a no brainer.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Ultimate Cap, would sit them both down if they teamed up against him :o

[Dr. Fate]

Now I'm starting to wonder if Storm should have really beat Wonder Woman...

[KAD]

Now I'm starting to wonder if Storm should have really beat Wonder Woman...


I love Storm, but there is no way she would win.

Unless she went ultra ruthless and sucked the air out of WW lungs

[Not Jake]

Ultimate Cap, would sit them both down if they teamed up against him :o
I wish real Cap wore army boots:(

[fifthfiend]

And lets face it; knowing dozens of styles (redundant and unnessesary) and beating up on the Joker does not equal combat experiance in major WWII battles.

As far as 'major WWII battles' goes, how much does fighting in large-scale battles largely determined by firepower prepare someone for individual hand-to-hand combat?

Not that this means Cap wouldn't win -- it's just I really don't see that point being relevant one way or another. Granted, Cap would've been fighting hands-on, but he'd mostly be up against infantry relying primarily on their firearms (to an extent, I suppose he'd be rather like Batman in that respect).

I do call bull**** on that 'beating up the Joker' line. Just on the short list of Batman's enemies there's Two-Face, Clayface, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Ra's Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, and Catwoman, which present a pretty diverse range of powers and abilities such as would give any peak-human battler of evil a workout.

-------------

Also, one general point I take exception with -- Steve Rogers having "more experience" than Batman. After you've accounted for decades spent frozen in that iceberg, does Cap really have the years on Bat? (If someone ran the numbers, I missed it, so, my bad if I did.) Bear in mind that Bruce Wayne's been in training since, what -- 12? 15? whereas Steve Rogers didn't join up and get Soldierized until 19 or thereabouts. On top of that, I'd throw in that, hell, soldiers at least have occasional downtime, whereas Bats has been at it night-in, night-out for as long as he's been in the game (okay, he took a bit of a vacation after his spine got cracked). Semi-insane single-minded zealotry has got to count for something there.

Also, Batman takes Ra's Al Ghul every time and the candles on that guy's birthday cake can probably be seen from space.

I'm not saying this tips it one way or the other, Cap certainly could well take it on other grounds, just saying Batman's really getting sold short in these couple particular areas.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Now I'm starting to wonder if Storm should have really beat Wonder Woman...
course not, not with what storm was doing, ororo would have to go into power overload i reckon to pull it off, it wouldn't be that easy:o

[Odin's Lapdog]

I wish real Cap wore army boots:(
but then he'd have to take the wings off the side of his head and no one likes that do they:(

[roach]

Should he? Well, since the whole thing was based on fans votes, yes. Bats sells more than Cap. No-brainer, right?

Could he? Well, it's not like it was a huge upset. Not like Cap lost to Willie Lumpkin. Normally, I'd give the edge to Cap swing-state close, like 52-48. In a straight up fight, I'd like Cap all the way. But Batman has gadgets, and I'm a sucker for gadgets, so that evens things out some. But breaking it down scientifically:

1. Servants. Both have butlers, but Jarvis could take Alfred anyday. Wasn't there and issue of Avengers, around issue #200 or so, where Jarvis defends the Avengers mansion by himself? Plus, Jarvis can take a beating too, as seen in Avengers #276-280. No way Alfred can take a whoppin' like Jarvis. Edge: Cap.

2. Residency. Both live in mansions, but really, Batman has a cave, and Cap doesn't. Sort of his own personal lair. Lairs rule. No Cap-cave makes this one easy. Edge: Bats.

3. "Sidekicks". Or "Partners", if you prefer. Both palled around with teenage boys who wear tights. Creepy. Very creepy. Like can-be-used-as-MJ's-defense creepy. I can just see it now on Court TV, MJ saying "See, your honor? Those boys were just my sidekicks." Tough call, but Cap's "sidekick" has been dead for some time, and he hasn't gone back to that well yet. Hmm, ok, there was Nomad for a while. However, there have been like thirty-three or so different Robins. Bats has some serious problems, me thinks. Edge: Cap.

4. Mode of transportation. The quinjet is cool, but Cap can only get the keys to it when Vision isn't out hot-doggin'. Otherwise, Cap doesn't get around very well. Plus, the Quinjet isn't exactly ideal for picking up a date/hooker. However, show-up in the Batmobile, and you're sure to score early and often. Chicks, and dudes in tights apparently, love the car. Edge: Bats.

5. Movie franchise. Not so fast. Yeah, Bats has four feature films to his credit, but only the first one was great. The second, good, but really, penguins with rocket launchers? Third and fourth, well.......they sucked hard. Like enough to make me forget that the first one was so cool. However, the Captain America movie had.......an Italian Red Skull. And huge fake ears on Cap's costume. And then there was that whole thing where Cap is strapped to that rocket headed for DC, sees that kid, alters the rockets path at the last second, and years later after being thawed out, instantly recognizes that kid, who's now an old man. And did I mention the fake ears? Ok, Cap is the better movie to watch completely intoxicated, but I'll still give the nod Batman, just based on box office receipts alone(something like $747,043,058 to $0). Still, Albert Pyun is a head and shoulders better director than Joel Schumaker anyday. Check out "Face Smasher: A Love Story", starring Terri Hatcher and the Dice-Man, for proof. Edge: Bats. Barely.

6. Villains. Bats has the Joker, and Penguin, and some other guys. Most are solid villains. Ok, not sure I ever got the Penguin. He's all fat and has trick umbrellas. Still, Bats list of baddies is colorful at the least. However, Cap's list of baddies is simple: Foreigners. Specifically, Germans(remember, kids, Germans are evil!), with a dash of French thrown in for good measure, maybe the occasional Russian or Arab here and there, depending on the political climate at the time. Every one of Cap's villains are Nazis, and 87% of them all are named "Baron von Something Something". Batman's list of baddies is cool, but they don't get me chanting "USA! USA!" like Cap's does. Cap's villains allow for the the word "jingoism" to be used liberally, and with pride! Edge: Cap.

7. Personality. Personality goes a long way. Bats is all dark and brooding, a tortured soul, still peeved at the loss of his parents some sixty years ago now, and is always at the ready to exact some vigilante-style justice. Smart, not impulsive, a careful planner. Tough to top someone so determined. But Cap has the one thing Bats lacks: Moxie! Moxie, in spades. That can-do spirit of his time, the "roll-up our sleaves, nothing a little elbow-grease can't fix" attitude. Sure, Cap may be all against women's lib and legalizing alcohol, but he's got moxie, dammit. That, and really Bats, who's fault was it that your folks got whacked? Cap would tell him to quit being such a sissy-girl and move on! Edge: Cap!

Winner: Cap over Bats, 4-3.

There you have it, folks. Scientific proof that Cap would have, could have, and should have, beaten Batman. Batman might take Captain America to Game 7, but in the end, Cap would be just too much for the Caped Crusader to handle. The facts are indisputable.

good points however Cap has lived at the Avengers mansion and now the tower....Cap also has a very cool chopper...chicks dig the chopper

[roach]

As far as 'major WWII battles' goes, how much does fighting in large-scale battles largely determined by firepower prepare someone for individual hand-to-hand combat?

Not that this means Cap wouldn't win -- it's just I really don't see that point being relevant one way or another. Granted, Cap would've been fighting hands-on, but he'd mostly be up against infantry relying primarily on their firearms (to an extent, I suppose he'd be rather like Batman in that respect).

I do call bull**** on that 'beating up the Joker' line. Just on the short list of Batman's enemies there's Two-Face, Clayface, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Ra's Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, and Catwoman, which present a pretty diverse range of powers and abilities such as would give any peak-human battler of evil a workout.

-------------

Also, one general point I take exception with -- Steve Rogers having "more experience" than Batman. After you've accounted for decades spent frozen in that iceberg, does Cap really have the years on Bat? (If someone ran the numbers, I missed it, so, my bad if I did.) Bear in mind that Bruce Wayne's been in training since, what -- 12? 15? whereas Steve Rogers didn't join up and get Soldierized until 19 or thereabouts. On top of that, I'd throw in that, hell, soldiers at least have occasional downtime, whereas Bats has been at it night-in, night-out for as long as he's been in the game (okay, he took a bit of a vacation after his spine got cracked). Semi-insane single-minded zealotry has got to count for something there.

Also, Batman takes Ra's Al Ghul every time and the candles on that guy's birthday cake can probably be seen from space.

I'm not saying this tips it one way or the other, Cap certainly could well take it on other grounds, just saying Batman's really getting sold short in these couple particular areas.

also while Cap has fought in some battles he was also going around taking down spies and saboteurs.....one mission had him deep in occupied France setting up the resistance.

[TheCorpulent1]

Batman and Captain America are both excellent hand-to-hand fighters; Batman because he trained in basically every martial arts style, Cap because he's a natural and uses the few styles he does know better than just about anyone else. I personally think Cap would kick Batman's ass in a straight-up, one-on-one fistfight. If you start adding in all of Batman's bulls*** from his utility belt, obviously the odds go in his favor.

[roach]

Cap is a master of Judo and boxing

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, 2 styles to Batman's 127 or some other outlandish number. But he'd still beat Batman 9 times out of 10, in my opinion.

Although, speaking of martial arts masters... I wonder how Daredevil would fare against Batman. He's apparently taken Cap down pretty handily, so I imagine Batman would be cake to him.

[Slackerpower]

Yes................Captain America is a boyscout and batman does whatever it takes to win even if it's playing dirty or above the law cause thats what he is

[TheCorpulent1]

Captain America's not a boy scout. He's noble, sure, but he's no boy scout.

[Slackerpower]

Would he cheat to win?

[Slackerpower]

I didn't think so

[TheCorpulent1]

How do you cheat to win in a fistfight? Kicking in the nuts? :confused:

[roach]

Please would someone explain to me what cheating in a fight is. Cap is a product of the military. He learned tactics and fighting from them....do you really think they didnt show him how to fight dirty????
I think a lot of people throw Superman's personality on Cap because they share the same position in their respective worlds.

[Not Jake]

but then he'd have to take the wings off the side of his head and no one likes that do they:(
I don't understand your earth rules such as how head decorations and footwear are connected. Could it be this concept of...fashion?

[TheCorpulent1]

I pity the person who thinks Captain America is fashionable. :(

[Lackey]

How do you cheat to win in a fistfight? Kicking in the nuts? :confused:


nerve strike

[Darthphere]

I pity the person who thinks Captain America is fashionable. :(

The US Navy?:confused:

[Not Jake]

I pity the person who thinks Captain America is fashionable. :(
What, decorative wings and army boots are like a brown belt and black shoes. Belts are the head wings of the waist.:confused:

[Victor Von Doom]

Should he? Well, since the whole thing was based on fans votes, yes. Bats sells more than Cap. No-brainer, right?

Could he? Well, it's not like it was a huge upset. Not like Cap lost to Willie Lumpkin. Normally, I'd give the edge to Cap swing-state close, like 52-48. In a straight up fight, I'd like Cap all the way. But Batman has gadgets, and I'm a sucker for gadgets, so that evens things out some. But breaking it down scientifically:

1. Servants. Both have butlers, but Jarvis could take Alfred anyday. Wasn't there and issue of Avengers, around issue #200 or so, where Jarvis defends the Avengers mansion by himself? Plus, Jarvis can take a beating too, as seen in Avengers #276-280. No way Alfred can take a whoppin' like Jarvis. Edge: Cap.

2. Residency. Both live in mansions, but really, Batman has a cave, and Cap doesn't. Sort of his own personal lair. Lairs rule. No Cap-cave makes this one easy. Edge: Bats.

3. "Sidekicks". Or "Partners", if you prefer. Both palled around with teenage boys who wear tights. Creepy. Very creepy. Like can-be-used-as-MJ's-defense creepy. I can just see it now on Court TV, MJ saying "See, your honor? Those boys were just my sidekicks." Tough call, but Cap's "sidekick" has been dead for some time, and he hasn't gone back to that well yet. Hmm, ok, there was Nomad for a while. However, there have been like thirty-three or so different Robins. Bats has some serious problems, me thinks. Edge: Cap.

4. Mode of transportation. The quinjet is cool, but Cap can only get the keys to it when Vision isn't out hot-doggin'. Otherwise, Cap doesn't get around very well. Plus, the Quinjet isn't exactly ideal for picking up a date/hooker. However, show-up in the Batmobile, and you're sure to score early and often. Chicks, and dudes in tights apparently, love the car. Edge: Bats.

5. Movie franchise. Not so fast. Yeah, Bats has four feature films to his credit, but only the first one was great. The second, good, but really, penguins with rocket launchers? Third and fourth, well.......they sucked hard. Like enough to make me forget that the first one was so cool. However, the Captain America movie had.......an Italian Red Skull. And huge fake ears on Cap's costume. And then there was that whole thing where Cap is strapped to that rocket headed for DC, sees that kid, alters the rockets path at the last second, and years later after being thawed out, instantly recognizes that kid, who's now an old man. And did I mention the fake ears? Ok, Cap is the better movie to watch completely intoxicated, but I'll still give the nod Batman, just based on box office receipts alone(something like $747,043,058 to $0). Still, Albert Pyun is a head and shoulders better director than Joel Schumaker anyday. Check out "Face Smasher: A Love Story", starring Terri Hatcher and the Dice-Man, for proof. Edge: Bats. Barely.

6. Villains. Bats has the Joker, and Penguin, and some other guys. Most are solid villains. Ok, not sure I ever got the Penguin. He's all fat and has trick umbrellas. Still, Bats list of baddies is colorful at the least. However, Cap's list of baddies is simple: Foreigners. Specifically, Germans(remember, kids, Germans are evil!), with a dash of French thrown in for good measure, maybe the occasional Russian or Arab here and there, depending on the political climate at the time. Every one of Cap's villains are Nazis, and 87% of them all are named "Baron von Something Something". Batman's list of baddies is cool, but they don't get me chanting "USA! USA!" like Cap's does. Cap's villains allow for the the word "jingoism" to be used liberally, and with pride! Edge: Cap.

7. Personality. Personality goes a long way. Bats is all dark and brooding, a tortured soul, still peeved at the loss of his parents some sixty years ago now, and is always at the ready to exact some vigilante-style justice. Smart, not impulsive, a careful planner. Tough to top someone so determined. But Cap has the one thing Bats lacks: Moxie! Moxie, in spades. That can-do spirit of his time, the "roll-up our sleaves, nothing a little elbow-grease can't fix" attitude. Sure, Cap may be all against women's lib and legalizing alcohol, but he's got moxie, dammit. That, and really Bats, who's fault was it that your folks got whacked? Cap would tell him to quit being such a sissy-girl and move on! Edge: Cap!

Winner: Cap over Bats, 4-3.

There you have it, folks. Scientific proof that Cap would have, could have, and should have, beaten Batman. Batman might take Captain America to Game 7, but in the end, Cap would be just too much for the Caped Crusader to handle. The facts are indisputable.


That was one of the funniest things that I have ever read on these forums. That's for adding the levity.

[Eyeballing]

I love Storm, but there is no way she would win.

Unless she went ultra ruthless and sucked the air out of WW lungs


Hmm, i've never thought of that before. Could she really do something like that with her powers? Hmm VERY interesting, if she can i believe i like storm A LOT more now. even though she probably wouldn't do it, damn it!

Come to think of it why not, Ice Man could freeze the air someone is breathing in and out of their lungs hehehe :up: :bomb: :joker:

[Eyeballing]

That was one of the funniest things that I have ever read on these forums. That's for adding the levity.


I agree:D twenty seven thumbs up :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: okay more like 6 thumbs up, but only because i cant fit anymore

[Proteus-X312]

no, Batman won in the comic because people voted that way :batman: .
Anyways, I give it to cap.Yeah Marvel vs DC sucked primarily because of that voting thing.For example since when can Aquaman beat Sub-Mariner :rolleyes:.I would give the match to Cap but i think the battle might end in a draw.Much like when Hulk and the Juggernaut fought.Both were too evenly matched for there to be a true winner.

[KAD]

Hmm, i've never thought of that before. Could she really do something like that with her powers? Hmm VERY interesting, if she can i believe i like storm A LOT more now. even though she probably wouldn't do it, damn it!

Come to think of it why not, Ice Man could freeze the air someone is breathing in and out of their lungs hehehe :up: :bomb: :joker:

she could create a localized twister that sucked the air out of her opponent and the immediatte area.

[fifthfiend]

I love Storm, but there is no way she would win.

Unless she went ultra ruthless and sucked the air out of WW lungs

Even in that case, can't WW hold her breath in space?

[KAD]

Even in that case, can't WW hold her breath in space?


I don't think so.

I have seen her in space with a helmet or the protection of magic but never without.

On the other hand if this did happen the gods would ressurect her

[Dr. Fate]

When the Justice League comics were relaunched in 1997 with a miniseries pitting the League against white martians Wonder Woman did go one-on-one with a nasty white female martian in outer space sans space suit and won [no surprises there].

[TheCorpulent1]

Aquaman vs. Namor should've gone to Namor when Marvel vs. DC came out, but I think Aquaman would stomp Namor now. Morrison beefed him up a bit and his current series shows how powerful he can be.

I guess Batman could use a nerve strike on Cap. Of course, he's never managed to use one on Deathstroke, who's basically the evil DC version of Cap.

[slipalong]

Exactly.

[KAD]

Aquaman vs. Namor should've gone to Namor when Marvel vs. DC came out, but I think Aquaman would stomp Namor now. Morrison beefed him up a bit and his current series shows how powerful he can be.

I guess Batman could use a nerve strike on Cap. Of course, he's never managed to use one on Deathstroke, who's basically the evil DC version of Cap.


Cap also knows nerve strikes and would guard against them.

Not to mention his chainmail would blunt any such attacks.

[Eyeballing]

Cap also knows nerve strikes and would guard against them.

Not to mention his chainmail would blunt any such attacks.


Plus i mean Cap is supossed to be the perfect human, i dont see how batman would be able to outlast him in terms of stamina, or even strength. Cap is supossed to be the limit of human potential isnt he?

[ElectroFlare]

Yup...in every possible way...

Thus making him more skilled then any trained human can become...

[Eyeballing]

Ecaxtly, so i dont see how Bats can take him in HAND TO HAND, now if it was just an all out brawl i would have to say Bats wins, i mean come on the UTILITY belt, caps sheild CANT compete with that. Hand to hand Cap wins everytime or almost id say like 70-30.

But with their shield/utility belt id say it goes opposite 70-30 in favor of bats, i mean heck the guy has everything from chewing gum to condoms in that thing :D

[Manwithoutpeer]

Actually the world powerlifting record is a tad over 900 in Bench Press. I believe it was set during the summer of last year(just FYI).

Nope, it's been broken again. Gene Rycheck Bench Pressed 1020 lbs and several others are on thier way to the 1000 lb mark.



Anyways....I don't think this is even close. Cap is stronger, faster, more agile, better strategy wise and as much or more fighting skill as Batman. All Cap needs is his shield and IMO he would take out Bats in under 60 seconds.

[Eyeballing]

Nope, it's been broken again. Gene Rycheck Bench Pressed 1020 lbs and several others are on thier way to the 1000 lb mark.



Anyways....I don't think this is even close. Cap is stronger, faster, more agile, better strategy wise and as much or more fighting skill as Batman. All Cap needs is his shield and IMO he would take out Bats in under 60 seconds.


Wholly test tube babys batman!!! :eek: 1,020lbs? DAAAMN!!! I agree with you on hand to hand, cap takes him but come on w/bats utility belt, who knows how many gases, chemicals and the like he has in there.

ALl he has to do is get close enough, which im sure he could do and spary a localized gas to knock out Cap and game over. The shield may protect against anything colid or liquid even but gas doesnt stop as soon as the shield is put up .:D

[Lackey]

Of course, he's never managed to use one on Deathstroke, who's basically the evil DC version of Cap.


a lot of people say that, but I don't see that way... for one, Deathstroke is easily smarter than Cap.

[Lackey]

Even in that case, can't WW hold her breath in space?


yes she can...but not for extended periods of time... she'd be able to hold her breath long enough to knock Storm out, though.

[Eyeballing]

yes she can...but not for extended periods of time... she'd be able to hold her breath long enough to knock Storm out, though.


What kind of affect would getting struck by lighting have on WW?

[fifthfiend]

The same effect it has on everything else.









Okay no, not at all, but who can pass up 5-year-old ****ty-scripting humor?

[Lackey]

The same effect it has on everything else.



Hahahaha :D

[Lackey]

What kind of affect would getting struck by lighting have on WW?


she's probably block it with her bracelets


but if it did hit her, I imagine it'd sting a bit, but it wouldn't put her down at all... it's just normal lightning afterall, it's not like it's Zeus's lightning.

[goldmill]

Nope, it's been broken again. Gene Rycheck Bench Pressed 1020 lbs and several others are on thier way to the 1000 lb mark.



Damn, I hadn't heard that yet. I'm surprised no one mentioned it on some of hte sites I visit. That is pretty sad then really since I don't think the deadlift record has gotten that high since the last mark was set at the mid 900s. No way should you be able to bench more than you deadlift, IMO.

[Cyclops]

I'll say it again. No flukes, no freak coincidences of water mains happening to burst at the right time to save Bats from humiliation...

Avengers/JLA # 2 - Batman concedes the fight to Captain America after a few blocked attacks.

[Eyeballing]

she's probably block it with her bracelets


but if it did hit her, I imagine it'd sting a bit, but it wouldn't put her down at all... it's just normal lightning afterall, it's not like it's Zeus's lightning.


Ummm as far as i know, WW's bracelets are made out of metal and metal conducts electricity. Soo unless her bracelets have magial properties that cancel out such a thing that wouldnt work :D

[Eyeballing]

I'll say it again. No flukes, no freak coincidences of water mains happening to burst at the right time to save Bats from humiliation...

Avengers/JLA # 2 - Batman concedes the fight to Captain America after a few blocked attacks.


Yeah that basically was a W for Cap BUT, i didnt like it, i thoght it was a cop out totally they should have went to blows. Screw the whole they are the only ones that will listen to each other and reason instead of just fighting **** that i want a cap/bats brawl!!!!:D :batman:

[Lackey]

Ummm as far as i know, WW's bracelets are made out of metal and metal conducts electricity. Soo unless her bracelets have magial properties that cancel out such a thing that wouldnt work :D


umm...they do have magical properties and would be able to block lightning as well as most other types of energy

[Eyeballing]

umm...they do have magical properties and would be able to block lightning as well as most other types of energy


Ok, well i wasnt really too sure, thats why i put that :D :cyclops: :cool: :hellboy:

[Odin's Lapdog]

Avengers/JLA # 2 - Batman concedes the fight to Captain America after a few blocked attacks.
I consider that more of a draw than when they met before...

It was just the notion that batman realised there were more pressing matters to attend to.

i batman said he COULD beat him, it didn't mean that he would have, it was just an observation. just like how Cannon Ball COULD beat Gladiator, it doesn't mean it would happen on every encounter, or prove the fact that cannonball is better.

Aknowledgement of a possible defeat is inconclusive in my book.

For all we know, Bruce wayne was playing to Steve's ego to get them to stop fighting pointlessly. You can't tell.

[KAD]

Nope, it's been broken again. Gene Rycheck Bench Pressed 1020 lbs and several others are on thier way to the 1000 lb mark.



Anyways....I don't think this is even close. Cap is stronger, faster, more agile, better strategy wise and as much or more fighting skill as Batman. All Cap needs is his shield and IMO he would take out Bats in under 60 seconds.


I agree Cap would win most of the time. But 60 seconds I doubt

[KAD]

Wholly test tube babys batman!!! :eek: 1,020lbs? DAAAMN!!! I agree with you on hand to hand, cap takes him but come on w/bats utility belt, who knows how many gases, chemicals and the like he has in there.

ALl he has to do is get close enough, which im sure he could do and spary a localized gas to knock out Cap and game over. The shield may protect against anything colid or liquid even but gas doesnt stop as soon as the shield is put up .:D

And the man behind the sheild doesn't stay still like your average crook struck with fear.

Batman's greatest weapon is fear and Cap just doesn't fall for that.

[KAD]

yes she can...but not for extended periods of time... she'd be able to hold her breath long enough to knock Storm out, though.


No offense but holding your breath in space and having your breath sucked away by a vortex are not the same situation.

I still would give the fight to Wonder Woman.

[Lackey]

No offense but holding your breath in space and having your breath sucked away by a vortex are not the same situation.



You're right, it's much more difficult to hold your breath in space.

[KAD]

You're right, it's much more difficult to hold your breath in space. Not necessarily.

[Cyclops]

I consider that more of a draw than when they met before...

It was just the notion that batman realised there were more pressing matters to attend to.

i batman said he COULD beat him, it didn't mean that he would have, it was just an observation. just like how Cannon Ball COULD beat Gladiator, it doesn't mean it would happen on every encounter, or prove the fact that cannonball is better.

Aknowledgement of a possible defeat is inconclusive in my book.

For all we know, Bruce wayne was playing to Steve's ego to get them to stop fighting pointlessly. You can't tell.

But you can tell that Batman conceded. Doesn't matter his reasons behind it or whatever, he forefeit the match.

To me, it's more conclusive than winning a fight by luck of bursting water mains.

[Manwithoutpeer]

No offense but holding your breath in space and having your breath sucked away by a vortex are not the same situation.

That's ****ing funny...;)

[Odin's Lapdog]

But you can tell that Batman conceded. Doesn't matter his reasons behind it or whatever, he forefeit the match.

To me, it's more conclusive than winning a fight by luck of bursting water mains.
I not sure if you are familiar with the whole dragonball ethos, but there are characters there that have given up their fights. Either for the chance of letting someone else be the hero, or similar to this for the sole purpose of having more pressing matters to attend to.

There was nothing at stake at that very point in battle between cap and bats, it wasn't like they were fighting over one of the artefacts, or for the sake of a universe or anything like that. It was just a battle that started out between the jla and the avengers ?(from what i can tell, i missed the first couple of parts)

The lines just shows bats was aware of something more than this happening.

I can understand why you take it as it is (a defeat) but i understood that part as being a mature stalemate, the line could have easily been delivered by cap, and no one would think less of him.

but that's the beauty of interpretation, everyone has their own way of viewing things.

[KAD]

I not sure if you are familiar with the whole dragonball ethos, but there are characters there that have given up their fights. Either for the chance of letting someone else be the hero, or similar to this for the sole purpose of having more pressing matters to attend to.

There was nothing at stake at that very point in battle between cap and bats, it wasn't like they were fighting over one of the artefacts, or for the sake of a universe or anything like that. It was just a battle that started out between the jla and the avengers ?(from what i can tell, i missed the first couple of parts)

The lines just shows bats was aware of something more than this happening.

I can understand why you take it as it is (a defeat) but i understood that part as being a mature stalemate, the line could have easily been delivered by cap, and no one would think less of him.

but that's the beauty of interpretation, everyone has their own way of viewing things.


Dragonball Z has nothing to do with this.

Batman is more likely to beat someone and move on

[Odin's Lapdog]

not if he's going to be a pawn in someone else's game he's not.

:o

he'd rather get down to the bottom of it.

[KAD]

not if he's going to be a pawn in someone else's game he's not.

:o

he'd rather get down to the bottom of it.

Cap is just better at fighting sorry.

Bats was conceding that he would probably lose but only after a prolonged fight.

You can read into it anyway you like but I'll take as he said it.

[Cyclops]

Oh, I'm familiar with Dragonball alright. I've watched "DBZ in a Nutshell", that's all anybody ever needs to know.

[GL1]

Link please :)

Regardless... Batman IS able to beat Captain America and vice versa. As far as fighting skills goes, they are on the same level. Neither one of them is going to shock each other, but they will both impress each other. Same as the Batman vs Wolverine fight but less viscious. Captain America vs Wolverine too. They're soooooo good at fighting and then they've got extra stuff on top of that. Captain America and his strength, Batman and his arsenal. Wolverine and his claws/healing... all of them have defeated enemies similar to each other as well.

There's no rationale for Captain America being better than Batman. For every style Cap knows Bats knows three and for every ounce of superstrength Cap has Batman has a way to counter it that he's done with three or four supervillains already.

It's obvious they're on even footing... in JLA/Avengers and that old silveragey comic both clearly show that these guys are absolutely on par...

[KAD]

Link please :)

Regardless... Batman IS able to beat Captain America and vice versa. As far as fighting skills goes, they are on the same level. Neither one of them is going to shock each other, but they will both impress each other. Same as the Batman vs Wolverine fight but less viscious. Captain America vs Wolverine too. They're soooooo good at fighting and then they've got extra stuff on top of that. Captain America and his strength, Batman and his arsenal. Wolverine and his claws/healing... all of them have defeated enemies similar to each other as well.

There's no rationale for Captain America being better than Batman. For every style Cap knows Bats knows three and for every ounce of superstrength Cap has Batman has a way to counter it that he's done with three or four supervillains already.

It's obvious they're on even footing... in JLA/Avengers and that old silveragey comic both clearly show that these guys are absolutely on par...


I'll agree with that. Except the part about bats wolverine

[roach]

Ok I'll give you this Cap's less than superhuman physique equals out Bats utility belt. However if bats doesnt take Cap out in the first minute or so he has no chance of winning this fight....Because Cap doesnt get tired, Batman does. In my mind that is the edge that Cap has over Bats and why I think that 7 out of 10 fights are won by Cap.

[Eyeballing]

Ok I'll give you this Cap's less than superhuman physique equals out Bats utility belt. However if bats doesnt take Cap out in the first minute or so he has no chance of winning this fight....Because Cap doesnt get tired, Batman does. In my mind that is the edge that Cap has over Bats and why I think that 7 out of 10 fights are won by Cap.


I agree, dont get me wrong i like batman (if you couldn't tell hint hint ;)) BUT cap is PHYSICALLY superior to him in every way. Also CAP has been proclaimed as the best hand to hand combatant in the MU. Bats hasnt had that said about him in the DC universe. Cap is stronger, faster, quicker reflexes, more agile and has better stamina.

I also dont like the fact that BATS knows EVERY martial art in the world. It would take decades just to learn ALL of them, even if he just learned all the techniques then mastered them himself. There isnt just enough time in a human life span to do so. So that is crap!

But Batman is easily smarter than Cap so he has that going for him. Plus that damn utility belt filled with krispy kreme donuts, body lotions and lunricants gives Bats a distinct endge. IMPO

Hand to hand no weapons, sheilds, gadgets etc. Cap 70-30 times

With shield, weapons, utility belt. Bats takes home Mrs. Rogers 100 times out of 100 ;) :up:

[fifthfiend]

Oh, I'm familiar with Dragonball alright. I've watched "DBZ in a Nutshell", that's all anybody ever needs to know.

DBZ in a nutshell?

I am intrigued.

[XFanTim]

DBZ in a nutshell?

I am intrigued.
Then perhaps you should try Googling the phrase "DBZ in a nutshell" ;)

Or just click here (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=31681)

[Eyeballing]

Oh, I'm familiar with Dragonball alright. I've watched "DBZ in a Nutshell", that's all anybody ever needs to know.


Pretty much :D :up:

[Lackey]

Not necessarily.


if you're dealing with real laws of physics, then yes

[TheCorpulent1]

Isn't the real problem with surviving in space unaided the threat of rapid decompression, where you'd basically explode from the sudden change in pressure from atmosphere to no atmosphere?

[Lackey]

it doesn't even have to be that... you could gradually decrease the pressure and a person wouldn't be able to survive.


but yeah, having the air sucked out of you isn't as bad as having your lungs explode, which is what would happen in space if you tried to hold your breath.

[Eyeballing]

actually wouldnt they IMPLODE? :D

[Lackey]

nope, explode... the air in your lungs would fight its way out very forcefully

[Not Jake]

but yeah, having the air sucked out of you isn't as bad as having your lungs explode, which is what would happen in space if you tried to hold your breath.

All that technical knowledge yet you still can't figure out how to pleasure a woman:(
but who needs them anyway:mad:
I wouldn't mind letting you explode in my space:o

[Lackey]

All that technical knowledge yet you still can't figure out how to pleasure a woman:(
but who needs them anyway:mad:



yeah, who needs women when you can get a helper monkey, they're not just for wiping your ass anymore :up:

[블라스]

Well, I'm much more biased towards Batman, since I'm a big Bat-fan, but I think that Caps has a slight advantage in straight hand to hand fighting, but nevertheless, it'd be a good fight :up:

[U.S War Machine]

Yes or no?No I think not

[Union Jack]

i'd vote for captain america on this one....batman is an excellent fighter but i do believe cap holds the edge.
it would be an excellent fight though!

[Sparta*]

If I had to choose I would say Captain America, but they fought in the Marvel VS DC crossover, and Batman won by a very small margin if my memory serves me right.

[TheCorpulent1]

Popularity contest.

[Sparta*]

It always is with Batman. He has so many groupies. I personally don't think he's all that, I don't even really like Batman that much.

[TheCorpulent1]

No, I mean that one was a literal popularity contest because it was based on readers' votes. Cap could be as strong as the Hulk and as fast as the Flash and he still wouldn't win it, because alas, Captain America is nowhere near as popular as Batman.

[Sparta*]

That whole thing was based on readers votes?! I didn't know that. More people voted for Storm then Wonderwoman?! thats a shock and a half

[BrianWilly]

Well Storm was pretty popular in the 90s while Wonder Woman was stuck in a bit of a rut, I believe.

[Sparta*]

hmmm i'm gonna try and remember some of the match-ups, because I don't know who won them all and I would like to.

Superman VS Hulk (?)
Green Lantern VS Silver Surfer (?)
Captain Marvel VS Thor (?)
Flash VS Quicksilver (Flash)
Wonderwoman VS Storm (Storm)
Aquaman VS Namor (Aquaman)
Lobo VS Wolverine (Wolverine)
Robin VS Jubilee (Robin)
Superboy VS Spiderman (Spiderman)
Catwoman VS Elektra (?)
Batman VS Captain America (Batman)

[TheCorpulent1]

Superman won, Surfer won, Thor won, and Elektra won. And yeah, the X-Men cartoon was still airing at the time Marvel vs. DC came out. More non-comic readers that I know have heard of X-Men from that and the movies than anything else.

[Ultimate_Superman]

Cap should win but he won't because when it all comes down to it, he'll be like Superman. He plays by the rules tries to talk things out before fighting; Batman fights dirty and so Cap would loses. Now if Cap didn't try and talk things out first and play by the rules it be another story.

[ElectroFlare]

Cap ain't Superman. He'll fight dirty if he has to. Cap doesn't have super-invulnrability to rely-Superman doesn't need to fight dirty. Sure, every time they Fight, Batman beats Superman, cause deep down inside, Superman is a good guy and Batman isn't.
Cap fought in WWII and killed Nazi's. He's a soldier. He does what has to be done when it needs to be done. Sure, he's got the boyscout attitude...because he'd rather not fight dirty...rather not doesn't mean he won't.

[War Lord]

Heh. ALL of Captain America's Foes fight dirty, so "dirty fighting" doesn't nescessarily guarantee anything for Batman.

Cap is stronger, faster, has quicker reflexes, and FAR superior endurance. And he's certainly on par with Batman skill-wise.

Cap's even a better strategist, as evidenced with Cap taking command of both the Avengers AND JLA in that recent cross-over.

I think Cap has an excellent chance of winning any and all encounters with the Dark Knight.

They're both about the same strength, being able to bench about 800 lbs.

Batman doesn't care to lead.

[War Lord]

Someone told me on these boards that 616 Cap America is capable of bench-pressing half a ton or something...that's about 1000 pounds. According to this page (http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/batman/batman.html), Batman presses "approximately 750 pounds." So in terms of physical strength, Cap whoops Bats. I don't even think normal human should be able to bench 1000 pounds...the world record is something like 514. If that's true, then in terms of physical strength Cap is definitely super/metahuman, whereas Batman is not.

I'm not saying that that's going to be the deciding factor in a fight between them, just trying to quiet all those people going "Caps and Batman are physically evenly matched!!!!!!1111" because they're not.

The world record is about 730 lbs, last I heard.

I just did a search, it's 821 lbs.

[X]

They're both about the same strength, being able to bench about 800 lbs.

Batman doesn't care to lead.

Nah, raw strength Cap is above Bruce, and he doesn't even have to work out to maintain it.

[KAD]

Cap is the winnah now and always

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Niether will always win. They're too evenly matched. Bats an' Cap will always trade wins over each other. Basically, it all ends up in one huge draw.

[War Lord]

Nah, raw strength Cap is above Bruce, and he doesn't even have to work out to maintain it.

Captain America can bench about 800 pounds, the upper limit for a normal human being.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm

Batman is just as strong and is as capable in a fighting situation as Captain America.

Cap has the advantage in that he doesn't get fatigued and Batman is more vicious and probably more dextrous because he's not weighted down by 50 lbs of chainmail.

Cap is more of a conventional fighter and Batman will size up his opponent before doing anything.

The fight could go any which way.

[X]

Captain America can bench about 800 pounds, the upper limit for a normal human being.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm

Batman is just as strong and is as capable in a fighting situation as Captain America.

Cap has the advantage in that he doesn't get fatigued and Batman is more vicious and probably more dextrous because he's not weighted down by 50 lbs of chainmail.

Cap is more of a conventional fighter and Batman will size up his opponent before doing anything.

The fight could go any which way.

Er, yes, it could go either way.

But Cap is the pinnacle of a human being. The absolute best that one can be physically. Bruce Wayne is not. Bruce Wayne isn't even into working out extremely heavily, do you have any idea how many things he juggles in between being the playboy, forensic work, yadda yadda yadda?

Remember in Venom when Batman had strength issues and he had to rely on Venom? I've consistently seen Steve do a lot more impressive things.

That chainmail doesn't slow down Cap a bit. He's one of the most agile non super human beings in comicdom. You ever see him get decked by The Hulk and do a back flip saving his ass? If anything the resistance that chainmails created that he's adapted to has made him that much stronger. Shield isn't too too light either.

[Mauser9910]

No.
It could take only one punch.
Can one punch from Batman KO Cap ? No way.
Could Cap KO Batman with one punch ? Definitely.

And it'd be even worse with Ultimate Cap. :p

http://membres.lycos.fr/atromy/truth.jpg

[X]

Well, the pic's pretty cool, but Ultimate Cap does have super strength and what not... :o

[roach]

Captain America can bench about 800 pounds, the upper limit for a normal human being.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm

Batman is just as strong and is as capable in a fighting situation as Captain America.

Cap has the advantage in that he doesn't get fatigued and Batman is more vicious and probably more dextrous because he's not weighted down by 50 lbs of chainmail.

Cap is more of a conventional fighter and Batman will size up his opponent before doing anything.

The fight could go any which way.


Wrong. If you worked out from here to eternity you would only get as strong as your genetic makeup would let you become. That is Batman. He is as strong and agile as his body will allow him to achieve.Batman being perfect in his body is a lot different than being perfect in my body.
Captain America through scientific means has enhanced his body past a point any human could achieve through exercise and or steroids. Captain America is THE perfect human specimen.

[TheCorpulent1]

Cap's lifted upwards of 1000 lbs. before, too. So, provided Bruce actually has worked himself out to be equal to the strongest person the world's ever seen--821 lbs., as you noted--Cap would still be stronger. Besides which, I don't think Bruce really is that strong anyway. I'd top him off at roughly 500 lbs. max, otherwise he'd be too bulky to be as agile as he is. Batman's gotta balance all of his physical attributes against each other to be effective; Cap doesn't because the serum just maxes everything out without subtracting from any other attributes. Don't ask me how, that's just they way it's put forth in the comics.

[War Lord]

Wrong. If you worked out from here to eternity you would only get as strong as your genetic makeup would let you become. That is Batman. He is as strong and agile as his body will allow him to achieve.Batman being perfect in his body is a lot different than being perfect in my body.
Captain America through scientific means has enhanced his body past a point any human could achieve through exercise and or steroids. Captain America is THE perfect human specimen.

I agree, but DC has Bruce Wayne as being a perfect man as well, which is why he can do all the things he does to perfection.

[War Lord]

Cap's lifted upwards of 1000 lbs. before, too. So, provided Bruce actually has worked himself out to be equal to the strongest person the world's ever seen--821 lbs., as you noted--Cap would still be stronger. Besides which, I don't think Bruce really is that strong anyway. I'd top him off at roughly 500 lbs. max, otherwise he'd be too bulky to be as agile as he is. Batman's gotta balance all of his physical attributes against each other to be effective; Cap doesn't because the serum just maxes everything out without subtracting from any other attributes. Don't ask me how, that's just they way it's put forth in the comics.

If Batman was a real human being, than you'd be right and Captain America wouldn't be able to life 1000 lbs either. However, since this is comics, Batman can lift as much as DC lets him and that's about 800 lbs or so.

[vindrow]

Come on now, everyone knows that Bats can beat eveybody in the MU with prep time...Thor, Silver Surfer, Galactus...no problem :rolleyes:


That just seems to be the answer for every bat fight..with prep time he can win.


Cap takes it.

[Odin's Lapdog]

No.
It could take only one punch.
Can one punch from Batman KO Cap ? No way.
Could Cap KO Batman with one punch ? Definitely.

And it'd be even worse with Ultimate Cap. :p

http://membres.lycos.fr/atromy/truth.jpg
bats can knock out captain america with a single blow...

he's learnt god knows how many different styles of fighting...

I'm pretty sure one of them has a nerve strike that would bring cap down with no probs...

[Odin's Lapdog]

And just for the record, being at peak human conditions doesn't automatcally make someone a better fighter..

Both of these characters have taken out people above human conditions that are faster and stronger than they are, so i don't see how it should really come into it.

Even so, Bats isn't that far off Caps, sure he may not be able to hold the world record in all the track events, but i still think he's above gold medal record holding decathalon standard (unless he entered with cap, then he'd get silver, but you get what i mean)

[KAD]

batman conceded he would lose to cap in JLA Avengers

[Odin's Lapdog]

i've covered that point earlier on in the thread

[Red Mask]

Yes or no?

Depends on the situation. Let us say Cap had to stop the Red Skull's schemes by killing him. But Batman intereferes. I wouldn't save the Red Skull's life if he immediately endangered other people. And I wouldn't allow anybody to stop me.

[roach]

Come on now, everyone knows that Bats can beat eveybody in the MU with prep time...Thor, Silver Surfer, Galactus...no problem :rolleyes:


That just seems to be the answer for every bat fight..with prep time he can win.


Cap takes it.

I counter prep time with split second battlefield adjustments

[TheCorpulent1]

What I've seen in the comics implies that Cap is just a lot more proficient on the battlefield than Batman.

First of all, he has literally every physical advantage. He's stronger, faster, more durable, and able to fight longer without exhaustion. Batman definitely outdoes him in pure intellectual proficiency, but Cap's every bit as tactically resourceful as Batman in the field. Batman could arguably have an advantage on Cap in fighting prowess, but any such advantage would be slim, as they're both considered among the absolute best fighters in their respective realities.

Next, their respective styles give a strong implication that Cap is just plain better in the field. Batman sticks to shadows and uses misdirection and a whole bunch of other tricks to throw large groups of opponents off guard. Cap wades into open battle with dozens of machine gun-toting soldiers in broad daylight and wins every time. Batman's been known to have trouble with some of his rogues like the feral Killer Croc and Bane, but Cap takes down villains as powerful as Mr. Hyde routinely and without incident.

I can still conceivably see Batman winning because they are almost evenly matched, but I think Cap would take the majority of their fights.

[spider-jide]

Neither does Batman.

F**K fighting styles or prep time. Batman is just prepared to fight dirty.

The hell you talking about? Batman is merely human of course he tires, I give it to cap because when it comes down to it, cap is a superior specimen. :cool:

[Mauser9910]

bats can knock out captain america with a single blow...

he's learnt god knows how many different styles of fighting...

I'm pretty sure one of them has a nerve strike that would bring cap down with no probs...

Gah... It's still the same old debate, I've already seen it with Bats vs Spider-Man.

Fact : Batman got sucker punched by countless villains and evenr egular thugs. Could he take a punch that could crush his head ?
Only in a DC comic-book. :p

Beyond strength issues, I think Cap has still the edge not as a planner but as a soldier knowing what to do to win the fight.

[X]

What I've seen in the comics implies that Cap is just a lot more proficient on the battlefield than Batman.

First of all, he has literally every physical advantage. He's stronger, faster, more durable, and able to fight longer without exhaustion. Batman definitely outdoes him in pure intellectual proficiency, but Cap's every bit as tactically resourceful as Batman in the field. Batman could arguably have an advantage on Cap in fighting prowess, but any such advantage would be slim, as they're both considered among the absolute best fighters in their respective realities.

Next, their respective styles give a strong implication that Cap is just plain better in the field. Batman sticks to shadows and uses misdirection and a whole bunch of other tricks to throw large groups of opponents off guard. Cap wades into open battle with dozens of machine gun-toting soldiers in broad daylight and wins every time. Batman's been known to have trouble with some of his rogues like the feral Killer Croc and Bane, but Cap takes down villains as powerful as Mr. Hyde routinely and without incident.

I can still conceivably see Batman winning because they are almost evenly matched, but I think Cap would take the majority of their fights.

Well said. :up:

Even Bucky during WW II was fighting his way into Nazi bunkers and putting down numerous, armed Nazi's. I mean, The Joker? Sure, bloodthirsty... But that's nothing new to Cap, he's got more villians in the same vein. An entire orginization actually.

Loss? Almost everyone Steve ever knew is dead. He suffered through childhood with polio! His partner died decades ago. Steve backhands Bruce down with his shield after a good fight and tells him to stop being a angsty *****. :D

[Cyclops]

Why do so many people say that Cap can't fight dirty, or that he'd get stymied by dirty fighters? I mean, cripes, if the guy's survived for SO LONG with just his shield and his skills, you don't think he did that by playing nice and adhering to the rules, do you?

[batnkevlar]

I personally think Batman would win 6 ou tof 10 times... possibly more, possibly less... maybe 6.5 out of 10 or equivalent to 13 out 20...

[batnkevlar]

I personally think Batman would win 6 ou tof 10 times... possibly more, possibly less... maybe 6.5 out of 10 or equivalent to 13 out 20...

[batnkevlar]

I personally think Batman would win 6 ou tof 10 times... possibly more, possibly less... maybe 6.5 out of 10 or equivalent to 13 out 20...

[X]

Why do so many people say that Cap can't fight dirty, or that he'd get stymied by dirty fighters? I mean, cripes, if the guy's survived for SO LONG with just his shield and his skills, you don't think he did that by playing nice and adhering to the rules, do you?

Cap fights people far more harsh than Batman. He fights the worst of the Nazis and people that woulden't think twice about murdering their best friends or parents.

Batman fights dirty. OoOOo. Go **** yourself. :rolleyes:

[Cyclops]

I personally think Batman would win 6 ou tof 10 times... possibly more, possibly less... maybe 6.5 out of 10 or equivalent to 13 out 20...

You think about it so much you had to tell us three times? :confused:

[War Lord]

Why do so many people say that Cap can't fight dirty, or that he'd get stymied by dirty fighters? I mean, cripes, if the guy's survived for SO LONG with just his shield and his skills, you don't think he did that by playing nice and adhering to the rules, do you?

I don't think that Cap fights dirty, he's just skillful and strong enough to deal with those that do.

[chuy]

yes cause batman is cooler cause he has gadgets

[War Lord]

yes cause batman is cooler cause he has gadgets

Batman is cooler because being perpetually noble is not cool, it's geeky.

[X]

Batman is cooler because being perpetually noble is not cool, it's geeky.

Meh, Cap's blown away people with an automatic weapon before when he had to, to protect a group of people he didn't know. He's also decapitated zombies with his shield! Batman douche bag antics with The Joker... Well, yeah. :o

[Da Docta]

cap.
why didnt the guy who made this thread post a poll!

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think that Cap fights dirty, he's just skillful and strong enough to deal with those that do.Which would make the point about Batman's willingness to fight dirty moot anyway. :confused:

[roach]

Why do so many people say that Cap can't fight dirty, or that he'd get stymied by dirty fighters? I mean, cripes, if the guy's survived for SO LONG with just his shield and his skills, you don't think he did that by playing nice and adhering to the rules, do you?


I agree...the Red Skull is basicly Evil Cap and I dont think he sticks to the rules of fighting

[saiyan jedi]

Batman would lose.

[GL1]

Batman IS able to beat Captain America... anyone who says otherwise, writer or not, is foolish. Batman goes toe to toe with Bane... what does Cap have, other than a fanbase over Bane?

Of course, Captain America has no problem going toe to toe with Black Panther, which is the same thing... I wouldn't give this fight to Bats everytime either... even the non-pop contest JLAvsAvengers had Bats saying "It's conceivable you could beat me, Avenger" (shows I didn't read the thread... that must've been said a dozen times) after their little playfight...

[X]

Batman IS able to beat Captain America... anyone who says otherwise, writer or not, is foolish. Batman goes toe to toe with Bane... what does Cap have, other than a fanbase over Bane?

Of course, Captain America has no problem going toe to toe with Black Panther, which is the same thing... I wouldn't give this fight to Bats everytime either... even the non-pop contest JLAvsAvengers had Bats saying "It's conceivable you could beat me, Avenger" (shows I didn't read the thread... that must've been said a dozen times) after their little playfight...

What does Cap have? Better physical abilities all round, as in he's stronger, faster, and tougher. :D

Yes, Batman could beat Captain America. Be a close fight regardless. I'm just one of the people who thinks Cap would take the majority.

Oh, what else does Cap have going for him? The fact that he goes against people like The Mindless Hulk, in there in the middle of the fight alongside people like Hercules and Namor, Iron Man and Doc Sampson.

You don't see Batman in there when Doomsday Day Wars DD is trashing the JLA and doing anything. Well, he was torn, beaten up with a tore costume. Same in Morrison's JLA. Good thing he had a match book for the White Martian fight. Hhehehe. :D

[oregondude]

Meh, Cap's blown away people with an automatic weapon before when he had to, to protect a group of people he didn't know. He's also decapitated zombies with his shield! Batman douche bag antics with The Joker... Well, yeah. :o

Don't forget he killed a German Vampire as well, head chopped off with shield.

I think Bats wins this fight majority of the time due to his varied forms of training. Cap is a bad mofo true, but he has not dabbled in as many different forms of fighting as Batman has, and not only dabbled but gotten pretty damn good at each of them too. Batman also has his toys. Cap is stronger but they are not in a weight lifting duel, bats neutralizes caps strength with technique.

[Anubis]

Cap all the way. I seen him beat the crap out of freakin Asgardians.

[oregondude]

Cap all the way. I seen him beat the crap out of freakin Asgardians.

Yeah those 10 year old Asgardians dared to shoplift a pack of hubba bubba from the & Eleven by Caps house deserved the ass whoopin they got!!!

[Anubis]

Hey, those punks had swords. They got what they deserved.

[GL1]

What does Cap have? Better physical abilities all round, as in he's stronger, faster, and tougher. :D

Yes, Batman could beat Captain America. Be a close fight regardless. I'm just one of the people who thinks Cap would take the majority.

Oh, what else does Cap have going for him? The fact that he goes against people like The Mindless Hulk, in there in the middle of the fight alongside people like Hercules and Namor, Iron Man and Doc Sampson.

You don't see Batman in there when Doomsday Day Wars DD is trashing the JLA and doing anything. Well, he was torn, beaten up with a tore costume. Same in Morrison's JLA. Good thing he had a match book for the White Martian fight. Hhehehe. :D

Well... well... well...

At least he doesn't have a physics defying shield!! :joker: Yeah... that'll show him... :p

[oregondude]

.

You don't see Batman in there when Doomsday Day Wars DD is trashing the JLA and doing anything. Well, he was torn, beaten up with a tore costume. Same in Morrison's JLA.

And just how many seconds do you think Cap would have last against Doomsday? 5? wait, he has that sheild, 7 tops!!!

[TheCorpulent1]

So, basically as long as Batman did. I still don't see how that strengthens the argument that Batman would win. :confused:

[X]

And just how many seconds do you think Cap would have last against Doomsday? 5? wait, he has that sheild, 7 tops!!!

Hey, he lasted a loooot longer than that against The Mindless Hulk.

Was in the fight with Zeus too.

And Thanos with the IG.

And The Red Skull with a cosmic cube. And some other dude with a cube.

So... :p

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh yeah, he actually won against Red Skull with a full-powered cosmic cube. That was a great fight.

[X]

:up:

Obviously The Skull wasn't using the full extent of it's powers, and his near insanity held him back from really beating Steve... But still very impressive.

[oregondude]

So, basically as long as Batman did. I still don't see how that strengthens the argument that Batman would win. :confused:

It wasn't meant too.

[oregondude]

Hey, he lasted a loooot longer than that against The Mindless Hulk.

Was in the fight with Zeus too.

And Thanos with the IG.

And The Red Skull with a cosmic cube. And some other dude with a cube.

So... :p

Wow, ok none of that makes anys ense. Cap should have been beaten before he could even get his shield off his back in any of those fights.

Sometimes, man, like having Batman beat Superman, having Cap stand a chance against ANY of those you mentioned is just insane. At least when they have Bts put a beatin' on Supes it involved some K which helps make it somewhat believable

[rigel7soldiers]

It's all circumstances. When Batman beat Supes in DKR, it's because he had help. Cap fought Zeus with the rest of the Avengers. He had help.

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, ok none of that makes anys ense. Cap should have been beaten before he could even get his shield off his back in any of those fights.

Sometimes, man, like having Batman beat Superman, having Cap stand a chance against ANY of those you mentioned is just insane. At least when they have Bts put a beatin' on Supes it involved some K which helps make it somewhat believableWhen Cap fights heavies, he has his shield, which makes it perfectly believable. The shield absorbs impact to the extent that a perfectly average mother of 2 could defend Cap against Thunderball's magic wrecking ball, backed by Thunderball's super-strength, without her arms snapping like twigs. Even if the Hulk punches it, it'll probably knock Cap off his feet, but it won't take him out of the fight.

[X]

Wow, ok none of that makes anys ense. Cap should have been beaten before he could even get his shield off his back in any of those fights.

Sometimes, man, like having Batman beat Superman, having Cap stand a chance against ANY of those you mentioned is just insane. At least when they have Bts put a beatin' on Supes it involved some K which helps make it somewhat believable

Batman's never beaten Superman. And yeah, suspension of belief plus massive skill and an indestructable shield lets Cap hang in there in fights where he shoulden't. Especially when he's got a bit of help. :up:

When Cap fights heavies, he has his shield, which makes it perfectly believable. The shield absorbs impact to the extent that a perfectly average mother of 2 could defend Cap against Thunderball's magic wrecking ball, backed by Thunderball's super-strength, without her arms snapping like twigs. Even if the Hulk punches it, it'll probably knock Cap off his feet, but it won't take him out of the fight.

:up:

[SuGarRush]

So I'm trying to understand things, I've read all 8 pages but I'm a bit hazy.
1.) Caps is physically superior to Bats in eveyr singel way.
2.) They are both extremely good at hand to hand combat the best or near the top of their respective universes.
3.) Bats is great at prep time anticipating what the opponents moves will be. Cap is the ultimate tactician, choosing moves that are unpredictable
4.) Bats has a plethora of tools and gadgets hidden in his belt. Cap has an indestructable shield that absorbs kinetic energy and disperses it with no negative effects upon the wielder.
5.) Bats wears body armour. Cap wears body armour. The armour plus the cape probably weigh as much as cap's chain mail


I'm just looking, but they appear to be evenly matched, except cap is stronger faster and quicker. Wouldn't that mean he would win?

[oregondude]

When Cap fights heavies, he has his shield, which makes it perfectly believable. The shield absorbs impact to the extent that a perfectly average mother of 2 could defend Cap against Thunderball's magic wrecking ball, backed by Thunderball's super-strength, without her arms snapping like twigs. Even if the Hulk punches it, it'll probably knock Cap off his feet, but it won't take him out of the fight.

If the Hulk hit cap square on the shield it would do more than knock him back. it would put the dude through walls and probably send him flying hundreds of feet. Yes the shield can sustain the force and even absorb some of it, but for cap to be able to stand behind that shield and provide an immovable backing for it, he would have to be nearly as strong as he Hulk. Take the scenario into the "real" world, yes I know hard to do with comic beings BUT try it, Cap vs Hulk. Fight over in seconds. I could take a steel plate and drop kick it, it won't hurt the plate at all but it would send it flying back. Now put that steel plate against the wall it puts a hole in the wall but the steel plate still undamaged. For one, hulk could not be hurt by Cap, Hulk is stronger, faster than cap and nearly invulnerable. All the brutha would have to do is grab the shield and send Cap for a ride about 3 hundred feet in the air, no way he survives that fall.

As mentioned before, same as Batman beating up Superman, no way it could really happen.

[SuGarRush]

the vibranium in the shield dissipitates the kinetic force, its a vibranium/adamantium alloy, thats the whole point of the shield, otherwise machine gun fire would vibrate his arm right off as well.

[oregondude]

the vibranium in the shield dissipitates the kinetic force, its a vibranium/adamantium alloy, thats the whole point of the shield, otherwise machine gun fire would vibrate his arm right off as well.

Doesnt vibranium have a negative effect on other metals?

[SuGarRush]

nope, the vibranium's positive traits emerge without diluting the indestructible tendencies of the Adamantium. Best of both worlds and all that business...

[GHollywood]

To be honest I think Batman would win and pretty quick. Cap would do that bum rush thing with the shield, then Batman would do a counter move well he dodges. Then batman would just be able to antisapate what hes gonna do next leading him into a trap. Plus anybody who beat Superman I think could beat Cap. Cap still rules though

[roach]

To be honest I think Batman would win and pretty quick. Cap would do that bum rush thing with the shield, then Batman would do a counter move well he dodges. Then batman would just be able to antisapate what hes gonna do next leading him into a trap. Plus anybody who beat Superman I think could beat Cap. Cap still rules though

so a tactical genius whould just rush Batman. He has faster reflexes but Batman would dodge.
Remember that scene from the Matrix when Neo beats up all the guards while trying to free Morpheus????? That is how Cap moves in my mind. Cap takes on armies by himself...no stealth, no trickery and wins.

[TheCorpulent1]

There's no reason why Cap couldn't "antisapate" what Batman's gonna do, too. People sell Cap's fighting ability short way too often just because he hasn't been trained as a ninja. Any martial art, including Cap's highly improvisational style, is formidable if the person knows how to use it well, and Cap's knows how to use everything at his disposal better than just about anyone else.

[The Batman]

Hawkman would freaking KILL Captain America....

[Unthinkable]

Hawkman would freaking KILL Captain America....

Charlie Parker...maybe.

[The Batman]

No, i'm talking Carter Hall.

Thousands of years of Battle experience

The Nth Metal

And the fact that he's much more brutal than either Cap or Bats.

Hawkie owns em' both...at the SAME TIME

[X]

No, i'm talking Carter Hall.

Thousands of years of Battle experience

The Nth Metal

And the fact that he's much more brutal than either Cap or Bats.

Hawkie owns em' both...at the SAME TIME

Well written, I really woulden't doubt that. :up: Hawkman's on the upper tier of the street leveler.

[oregondude]

Cap's knows how to use everything at his disposal better than just about anyone else.

Even Jackie Chan? NO WAY!!!

Cap knows Judo, not an improvisational art. Judo deals with grappling and is akin to "real" wrestling, not WWE stuff. Typically in a fight I would almost always bet on the wrestler over the martial artist as most fights end up on the ground. Having wrestled in high school I have a bit of experience. In this Case, among Batman's MANY martial arts he has studied Judo is probably amongst them but I do not see him letting this fight with Cap hit the dirt. Seeing as Cap wears chain mail and being sronger than Bats, Batman is smart enough to realize he cannot win a ground fight without being able to hit some nerve clusters and use his other skills to his advantage. I think this fight stays standing up and nobody is better using the environment than Batman. This is a man who deals int he shadows and uses stealth, he is always aware of his surroundings and uses them for cover as well as a weapon. Captain America is a head on fighter, not a guy into the surroundings, not on the same level as Batman anyway.

I am not so sure Cap is faster than Batman. Maybe quicker reflexes but faster, no. Cap is much bulkier and is in a solid chain mail shirt and pants. That will be MUCH heavier than Batman's kevlar, as Batman's kevlar is not armored in the joints and such, giving him more freedom of movement.

The more I think about this fight the more I think it goes 50/50 depending on whats involved.

if this fight is on open ground with no weapons for either person I bet Cap would win 6 or 7 out of 10 hard fought battles but Caps Sup Sold Ser. gives him a major advantage. If open ground with weapons Batman probably 8 out of 10. That utility belt carries some heavy **** and cap has only one shield which can be taken care of. If in an area much like Gotham City I think Batman wins closer to 9 or 10 out of 10.

[X]

Yeah, Batman's proficient in 127 different styles. Cap's good in a few dozen. Lots of oriental stuff. Steve's like a rolled up military type. Akido, Judo, Savate even. But the mans got amazing raw skill, more so than Batman if you ask me. The proficiency that comes naturally I mean. I mean, the skill that it takes a human being to throw the over a thousand pound Hulk around using his own momentum among other things against him. :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Captain America's basic style is a mix of judo and kickboxing, if I recall correctly, but you're absolutely wrong if you think he's not one of the most improvisational fighters around. Cap just makes stuff up a lot of the time, depending on whatever he thinks is best for the situation. As for Cap's chainmail, it doesn't slow him down at all. Logically, sure, it would slow him down in the real world, we've seen him keep up with faster opponents despite it, so logic has to take a back seat to the comics in that case, just as it does when we read that the Silver Surfer is traveling millions of times the speed of light.

You're selling Cap short if you think he's solely a head-on fighter. He's as tactically minded and resourceful as they come, and he can switch tactics in the field at the drop of a hat. If Batman sees that he wouldn't win an open face-off with Cap and switches tactics, Cap would switch tactics too. He's not gonna just chase after Batman like a caveman. Cap's not as good at using his surroundings as Batman because, like I said, he doesn't have to be. While Batman needs misdirection and shadows to cover him against a few armed street thugs, Cap could dispense with them easily just by getting in there and fighting them. The utility belt is really the only obstacle I see to Cap's winning the vast majority of their fights.

[X]

We need to adopt, Corp! And we'll bring up the kid and drill all of this stuff into their head, make them the uber geek!

What say you? :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Um... no? That'd be kind of creepy. :(

[X]

.........

Gah.

:(

Man, I wish I knew where to find the AS face. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/TheLeaguer/Stuff/AS.jpg

[X]

It... is... mine! :mad:

[oregondude]

You're selling Cap short if you think he's solely a head-on fighter. He's as tactically minded and resourceful as they come, and he can switch tactics in the field at the drop of a hat. If Batman sees that he wouldn't win an open face-off with Cap and switches tactics, Cap would switch tactics too. He's not gonna just chase after Batman like a caveman. Cap's not as good at using his surroundings as Batman because, like I said, he doesn't have to be. While Batman needs misdirection and shadows to cover him against a few armed street thugs, Cap could dispense with them easily just by getting in there and fighting them. The utility belt is really the only obstacle I see to Cap's winning the vast majority of their fights.

Talk about selling someone short, you think Batman would have a tough time against half a dozen armed street thugs in a head on fight? I see him having just as easy a time with thema s Cap does. You forget Batman has spent MOST of his life training for situations just as this and near mastering MANY more forms of combat than cap has. Cap received NO training until he was roughly 20 years old, spent a year at most getting that training then being sent off to combat. He was in the war a few years then frozen utnil recent times. Batman has been training his mind and body since before he was a teenager and went through many years of intense training plus actual combat on a nightly basis against such street thugs.

That is what makes this fight such an interesting one, Cap has some fighting skill and is one tough cookie YES for sure. He also has the juice running through his blood which enables him to defeat enemies he should not be able to defeat. Pound for pound Batman is more of a fighter than Cap will ever hope to be, however he lacks the Super 'Roids cap was given to turn the wimpy never had a date never won a fight could barely lift 50 pounds fresh out of high school Steve Rogers into Captain America.

batmans experience, training tactics and versatile combat styles is what makes him a worthy oppnent for Captain America. Bruce Wayne has forgotten more forms of combat than Captain America will ever learn. Trust me, he switches some of his styles Cap would be hard pressed to even be able to name them let alone counteract them. His super strength and chain mail will be very needed to defeat someone of Batman's caliber.

This fight is pretty even in most ways.

[X]

however he lacks the Super 'Roids cap was given to turn the wimpy never had a date never won a fight could barely lift 50 pounds fresh out of high school Steve Rogers into Captain America.

Yeah, lets not forget the polio. :rolleyes:

[ShadowBoxing]

In Avengers JLA Batman concedes that Captain America can beat him

[ShadowBoxing]

Furthermore Captain America beat the Hulk....I think he can beat Batman

[X]

Furthermore Captain America beat the Hulk....I think he can beat Batman

And when did he do this...?

[ShadowBoxing]

If Batman was a real human being, than you'd be right and Captain America wouldn't be able to life 1000 lbs either. However, since this is comics, Batman can lift as much as DC lets him and that's about 800 lbs or so.
Batman lifts about 400
Captain America lifts 800 the highest any human has lifted....Batman cannot lift this since he has to sacrifice strength for speed and agility. Batman is perfect since he is the perfect balance of speed strength and agility. Cap A is bio engineered to be at the peak of all these abilities. he does not have to sacrifice anything in order to be faster, stronger or more agile

[War Lord]

Batman lifts about 400
Captain America lifts 800 the highest any human has lifted....Batman cannot lift this since he has to sacrifice strength for speed and agility. Batman is perfect since he is the perfect balance of speed strength and agility. Cap A is bio engineered to be at the peak of all these abilities. he does not have to sacrifice anything in order to be faster, stronger or more agile

Where is your sources that cite how much Batman can lift?

[War Lord]

Batman lifts about 400
Captain America lifts 800 the highest any human has lifted....Batman cannot lift this since he has to sacrifice strength for speed and agility. Batman is perfect since he is the perfect balance of speed strength and agility. Cap A is bio engineered to be at the peak of all these abilities. he does not have to sacrifice anything in order to be faster, stronger or more agile

Where are your sources that cite how much Batman can lift?

[War Lord]

Here is mine:

http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/batman/batman.html

Alter Ego: Bruce Wayne, Various cover identities ("Matches" Malone, Sir Hemmingford Grey, etc.)
Height: 6'2" Weight: 210 lbs.
Eyes: Blue Hair: Black
Occupation: Multimillionaire Industrialist, Playboy and Philanthropist
Marital Status: Single
Known Relatives: Thomas Wayne (father; deceased); Martha Wayne (mother; deceased), Philip Wayne (uncle)

Group Affiliations: Justice League of America (current); Justice League International (formerly); Outsiders (former leader)
Base of Operations: Gotham City

Overview:
Gotham City made the Batman. An industrial center that never recovered after the Great Depression. An emerging indusrialist and his wife were killed one night by the rising crimewave and the Batman was born. Desiring that no one else suffer what he has suffered, Bruce Wayne has battled against the most insane, rogues gallery of criminals, the brutal underbelly of mankind, and now against the forces of nature itself. An earthquake has leveled most of Gotham, and the Batman alter ego, Bruce Wayne has gone to the Government to convince them to help fund the repair of Gotham. Batman is also a member of the Justice League and is their most insightful member, making leaps of logic based in reason, rarely participating directly with League business, but offering information when required.


Sponsoring the Huntress into the League, it would seem that he wants to help her see a more heroic side to what she does, hoping perhaps, it will come with association to other heroes. Batman has little use for most of the Justice League, considering most of them to be too young, too inexperienced, or simply not dedicated enough to be effective.
History: Historical References for Batman


Batman is a trained scientist, escape artist, detective and inventor.

Batman began his physical and mental conditioning when he was 11.
Began intense physical training and weight lifting at age 12.
Trained in the US for various martial arts for 3 years.
Gained degrees in criminal science, forensics, computer science, chemistry and engineering by the time he was 16.
Became 2st and 3nd degree black belt in Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido by the time he was 17.
Trained and became proficient with all small arms and basic vehicles operations.
By the time he was 18 he:


Studied commando style operations with small mercenary units.
Left US to further study martial arts under specialized masters.
Other skills: knife throwing, escrima, melee weapons mastery, body control
Other skills: disguise, diverse environmental training, combat driving, savate, kungfu
Other skills: security systems, illusion/sleight of hand, blind fighting
By the time he was 24 he had expanded his studies for more advanced:


forensic and medical sciences
expanded computer and engineering sciences
expanded disguise and weapon/device sciences
expand device pool, improve vehicle designs
use of personal powered armor and systems.
continual physical training in Batcave facility.
database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supers.
expanded melee weapon techniques
improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery
Skills and Powers
With few exceptions, the non-metahuman known as the Batman is a superbly trained and highly experienced fighting machine. Mastering the world's most lethal martial arts disciplines, he is considered to be the best martial artist in the world. The enigmatic Lady Shiva (see attached files), the new Green Arrow, and perhaps his young protege, Nightwing, are the only non-metas on the planet who could possibly defeat him in a one on one conflict.
Batman maintains the physical stature of a man in perfect physical condition and he constantly trains his physical abilities, strength, agility, reflexes and coordination until they reach mythical proportions for a human. Starting at a very young age, Batman conditioned his body with physical regimes such as strength conditioning, martial arts, yoga and biofeedback. These years of intenstive training have allowed him to become and remain one of the most physically capable men on Earth.

He may bench press approximately 725 pounds and is the near-equal or equal of the world's best athlete in any Olympic event. Batman is a ruthless combatant and fights with an unothodoxed mixture of styles that incorporate techniques from other cultures, mixed with the weapon styles of his uniform. These include batarangs, razor-wings and grappling lines. Batman is also an accomplished night fighter and is capable of fighting in an obscured or poorly lit environnment.

Weapons
Batman has no singlular weapon of choice, instead he relies on a bevy of devices to supplement his needs at any time. With proper preparation, Batman carries a wide assortment of support devices.

The most common are: An infrared flashlight used in conjuction with his infrared lenses in his cowl, a short-term rebreather, a remote access vocal command processor for his computer and communications, a powerful laser cutting torch, smoke and tear gas grenades, batarangs and razorwings for attack, a grapnel line for swinging and tying up foes and a glider cloak that can be used to glide short distances or remove momentum from a fall. He also carries a small forensic kit for detective work and a series of lockpicks and security skeleton cards for simple to advanced security locks.

Batman wears a suit of superlight ballistic fibre proof against low to medium caliber firearms. His cowl is armored, lead lined and his cape is also bulletproof, fire retardant and water resistant. Batman also possesses a number of other suits that he can tailor to his needs. He also possesses a suit of powered armor.

Vehicles
Batman has a multitude of vehicles for his one man war on crime. His primary vehicle, the Batmobile is a modified jet aircraft that has an armored car built around it. It is capable of speeds of 200+ miles per hour, 300+ with an afterburner. Batman also has a variety of terrain vehicles, gliders, small aircraft and watercraft as well, such as speedboats and submersibles for covert operations. He also keeps a modified stealth aircraft that he uses in conjuction with the Justice League. It was destroyed recently in conflict with the Martians but will probably be replace soon with something more advanced. All of Batman's vehicles are resistant to small arms fire and designed to be a durable and maintenance free as possible. Alfred and Harold maintain any vehicles that Batman himself does not have time to keep up. All of the vehicles have microwave connections to the Batcave and to Oracle for data upload or download. All of the equipment can also be driven or controlled by voice or can be designated to autoreturn in the event that Batman is injured.

Facilities
Batman stores all of his technology beneath Wayne Manor in what is called the BatCave. The cavern system beneath Waynne Manor is quite extensive and has not been completely mapped. It did have a connection to the Gotham Subway System and Batman had a high speed railcar that once used that connection to get into Gotham. Batman's information technology is located in the Batcave as well. All of Batman's data is highly encrypted and secure. Besides, Batman, Tim, Alfred and Oracle are the only people with complete access to the Batcave computers. These computers have Batman's criminal database and his connections to other information resources. The cave also keeps what little memorabilia that Batman deems important enough to save.

[SuGarRush]

i gotta be honest buddy, It's great that Bat's can bench 725, I'm impressed, I know I will never be near that, but Cap can bench more than whatever the record is. The principle of the SUper-soldier Serum was that it put you at peak performance physically for the human race.
if a dwarf is borne, and he trains hard, overcome's his cerebral palsy, and conditions right, he will be at his maximum weight benchpressed. Now it might be 185, but that is the best he could ever do.
Batman is the same way, (not the dward bit) he works out and is in the very BEST shape he can be in.
Cap never has to work out, and he is in the best shape ANYONE can be in.
No matter how strong bats is, cap MUST BE stronger, because that is what the super soldier serum does, puts him at the absolute limit of human ability.

[War Lord]

i gotta be honest buddy, It's great that Bat's can bench 725, I'm impressed, I know I will never be near that, but Cap can bench more than whatever the record is. The principle of the SUper-soldier Serum was that it put you at peak performance physically for the human race.
if a dwarf is borne, and he trains hard, overcome's his cerebral palsy, and conditions right, he will be at his maximum weight benchpressed. Now it might be 185, but that is the best he could ever do.
Batman is the same way, (not the dward bit) he works out and is in the very BEST shape he can be in.
Cap never has to work out, and he is in the best shape ANYONE can be in.
No matter how strong bats is, cap MUST BE stronger, because that is what the super soldier serum does, puts him at the absolute limit of human ability.

I don't disagree that Cap can beat Batman. I was only pointing out that DC has him benching whatever the world record is at the moment.

[Jimmy-San]

I'm not scrolling back to the beginning. Anyway, if this thread is about Marvel vs. DC#3, Cap actually displayed the advantage physically. Batman "won" because the sewers flushed out and threw Cap's aim off, simultaneously allowing Batman a free shoit with the batarang. In JLAvengers, Cap seemed to me to show the edge. Cap in general would probably be a slight favorite.


-Jimmy

[oregondude]

In Avengers JLA Batman concedes that Captain America can beat him

I think you should read that comic again and pay more attention to what is said by Batman to Captain America.

What you think he said is not what was said.

Captain America eating the Hulk is absurd. I know the Ultimate Cap put the final blow on the Ultimate Hulk after the rest of his crew went to work on him. For one thing he did not do that alone and for another the Ultimate Hulk is a far cry from the normal Hulk.

[roach]

I think you should read that comic again and pay more attention to what is said by Batman to Captain America.

What you think he said is not what was said.

Captain America eating the Hulk is absurd. I know the Ultimate Cap put the final blow on the Ultimate Hulk after the rest of his crew went to work on him. For one thing he did not do that alone and for another the Ultimate Hulk is a far cry from the normal Hulk.

Not ultimate....616
Hulk comes after Captain America because he replaced him and even Rick Jones left Hulk to hang with Cap. Judo is about using an opponents strength against the opponent and that is what Cap did. Batman is just a man....Cap is the perfect man.

[TheCorpulent1]

Talk about selling someone short, you think Batman would have a tough time against half a dozen armed street thugs in a head on fight? I see him having just as easy a time with thema s Cap does. You forget Batman has spent MOST of his life training for situations just as this and near mastering MANY more forms of combat than cap has. Cap received NO training until he was roughly 20 years old, spent a year at most getting that training then being sent off to combat. He was in the war a few years then frozen utnil recent times. Batman has been training his mind and body since before he was a teenager and went through many years of intense training plus actual combat on a nightly basis against such street thugs.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I have to disagree. I don't think I'm selling Batman short at all. He's great at taking advantage of the urban environments of Gotham to use the shadows and everything, as you pointed out yourself, but without them he takes a considerable dip in effectiveness. His whole schtick is misdirection. Look at Year One. Bruce goes out and a few street thugs nearly kill him because he lacks the elements of fear and misdirection. I know he's improved a lot since then, but his whole style of fighting still centers on misdirection. Bruce would win against a dozen armed opponents using stealth and misdirection. Cap, on the other hand, would parachute into the middle of a combat zone with hundreds of armed soldiers and not only survive, but most likely turn the tide of the battle single-handed. No offense to Batman, but you can't really compare a shadowy, urban environment with clusters of maybe 6 to 10 armed but disorganized opponents at a time to an open battlefield with armed enemies numbering in the dozens to hundreds.
That is what makes this fight such an interesting one, Cap has some fighting skill and is one tough cookie YES for sure. He also has the juice running through his blood which enables him to defeat enemies he should not be able to defeat. Pound for pound Batman is more of a fighter than Cap will ever hope to be, however he lacks the Super 'Roids cap was given to turn the wimpy never had a date never won a fight could barely lift 50 pounds fresh out of high school Steve Rogers into Captain America.I agree, Batman knows more styles of fighting than Cap. But the way you're talking about him, you're painting Cap as some rookie who couldn't figure out which end of his arm to hit someone with if he tried. Cap is regarded as one of the best fighters in the entire Marvel universe. Gods bow to Cap's honor and fighting ability. Nick Fury routinely sends Cap on missions that would be 100% guaranteed suicide runs for anyone else. Cap may only know one or two styles of martial arts, but the way he uses them places him on equal or better footing than many of Marvel's martial arts masters with numerous styles under their belts.
batmans experience, training tactics and versatile combat styles is what makes him a worthy oppnent for Captain America. Bruce Wayne has forgotten more forms of combat than Captain America will ever learn. Trust me, he switches some of his styles Cap would be hard pressed to even be able to name them let alone counteract them. His super strength and chain mail will be very needed to defeat someone of Batman's caliber.
Like I said, it's quality, not necessarily quantity of martial arts styles that matter, and Cap's got quality in spades. Steve has comparable experience to Bruce given the harsher nature of his combat experience. Bruce has roughly 13-14 years of training, which included non-combat training for detective, forensic, and scientific work, plus about 10 years of actual combat experience, mostly in small urban fights. Cap has only a few months to 1 year of training and around 20 years of practical combat experience. Remember, Cap was active in WWII before Pearl Harbor and he's been up and around in modern times for almost the entire 15+ years that Marvel's current internal continuity covers. So Bruce doesn't have quite the advantage in experience that you think he does.

Regarding tactics, Cap is every bit the tactician Bruce is. He's not as paranoid or anal as Bruce, so he doesn't formulate plans for every contingency like Bruce does, but we've seen Bruce get caught unawares or his plans go awry many, many times anyway, especially against highly intelligent and resourceful opponents, of whom Cap would most certainly be one. Fighting styles, sure Bruce beats Cap hands down. Fighting ability, however, I think his advantage would be slight and easily compensated by Cap's superior physical abilities.
This fight is pretty even in most ways.On that we agree. I just think Cap's got a bigger overall advantage that would give him a win the majority of times. It definitely wouldn't be easy though.

P.S. - I apologize for the length of my rant. I usually don't argue this much anymore, but you seem to have a better head than most on your shoulders and raised some good points. :up:

[ShadowBoxing]

Not ultimate....616
Hulk comes after Captain America because he replaced him and even Rick Jones left Hulk to hang with Cap. Judo is about using an opponents strength against the opponent and that is what Cap did. Batman is just a man....Cap is the perfect man.
someone who knows a history of the character past the 1990s...I'm impressed. That was exactly what I was refering to. Good show!

[ShadowBoxing]

Here is mine:

http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/batman/batman.html

Alter Ego: Bruce Wayne, Various cover identities ("Matches" Malone, Sir Hemmingford Grey, etc.)
Height: 6'2" Weight: 210 lbs.
Eyes: Blue Hair: Black
Occupation: Multimillionaire Industrialist, Playboy and Philanthropist
Marital Status: Single
Known Relatives: Thomas Wayne (father; deceased); Martha Wayne (mother; deceased), Philip Wayne (uncle)

Group Affiliations: Justice League of America (current); Justice League International (formerly); Outsiders (former leader)
Base of Operations: Gotham City

Overview:
Gotham City made the Batman. An industrial center that never recovered after the Great Depression. An emerging indusrialist and his wife were killed one night by the rising crimewave and the Batman was born. Desiring that no one else suffer what he has suffered, Bruce Wayne has battled against the most insane, rogues gallery of criminals, the brutal underbelly of mankind, and now against the forces of nature itself. An earthquake has leveled most of Gotham, and the Batman alter ego, Bruce Wayne has gone to the Government to convince them to help fund the repair of Gotham. Batman is also a member of the Justice League and is their most insightful member, making leaps of logic based in reason, rarely participating directly with League business, but offering information when required.


Sponsoring the Huntress into the League, it would seem that he wants to help her see a more heroic side to what she does, hoping perhaps, it will come with association to other heroes. Batman has little use for most of the Justice League, considering most of them to be too young, too inexperienced, or simply not dedicated enough to be effective.
History: Historical References for Batman


Batman is a trained scientist, escape artist, detective and inventor.

Batman began his physical and mental conditioning when he was 11.
Began intense physical training and weight lifting at age 12.
Trained in the US for various martial arts for 3 years.
Gained degrees in criminal science, forensics, computer science, chemistry and engineering by the time he was 16.
Became 2st and 3nd degree black belt in Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido by the time he was 17.
Trained and became proficient with all small arms and basic vehicles operations.
By the time he was 18 he:


Studied commando style operations with small mercenary units.
Left US to further study martial arts under specialized masters.
Other skills: knife throwing, escrima, melee weapons mastery, body control
Other skills: disguise, diverse environmental training, combat driving, savate, kungfu
Other skills: security systems, illusion/sleight of hand, blind fighting
By the time he was 24 he had expanded his studies for more advanced:


forensic and medical sciences
expanded computer and engineering sciences
expanded disguise and weapon/device sciences
expand device pool, improve vehicle designs
use of personal powered armor and systems.
continual physical training in Batcave facility.
database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supers.
expanded melee weapon techniques
improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery
Skills and Powers
With few exceptions, the non-metahuman known as the Batman is a superbly trained and highly experienced fighting machine. Mastering the world's most lethal martial arts disciplines, he is considered to be the best martial artist in the world. The enigmatic Lady Shiva (see attached files), the new Green Arrow, and perhaps his young protege, Nightwing, are the only non-metas on the planet who could possibly defeat him in a one on one conflict.
Batman maintains the physical stature of a man in perfect physical condition and he constantly trains his physical abilities, strength, agility, reflexes and coordination until they reach mythical proportions for a human. Starting at a very young age, Batman conditioned his body with physical regimes such as strength conditioning, martial arts, yoga and biofeedback. These years of intenstive training have allowed him to become and remain one of the most physically capable men on Earth.

He may bench press approximately 725 pounds and is the near-equal or equal of the world's best athlete in any Olympic event. Batman is a ruthless combatant and fights with an unothodoxed mixture of styles that incorporate techniques from other cultures, mixed with the weapon styles of his uniform. These include batarangs, razor-wings and grappling lines. Batman is also an accomplished night fighter and is capable of fighting in an obscured or poorly lit environnment.

Weapons
Batman has no singlular weapon of choice, instead he relies on a bevy of devices to supplement his needs at any time. With proper preparation, Batman carries a wide assortment of support devices.

The most common are: An infrared flashlight used in conjuction with his infrared lenses in his cowl, a short-term rebreather, a remote access vocal command processor for his computer and communications, a powerful laser cutting torch, smoke and tear gas grenades, batarangs and razorwings for attack, a grapnel line for swinging and tying up foes and a glider cloak that can be used to glide short distances or remove momentum from a fall. He also carries a small forensic kit for detective work and a series of lockpicks and security skeleton cards for simple to advanced security locks.

Batman wears a suit of superlight ballistic fibre proof against low to medium caliber firearms. His cowl is armored, lead lined and his cape is also bulletproof, fire retardant and water resistant. Batman also possesses a number of other suits that he can tailor to his needs. He also possesses a suit of powered armor.

Vehicles
Batman has a multitude of vehicles for his one man war on crime. His primary vehicle, the Batmobile is a modified jet aircraft that has an armored car built around it. It is capable of speeds of 200+ miles per hour, 300+ with an afterburner. Batman also has a variety of terrain vehicles, gliders, small aircraft and watercraft as well, such as speedboats and submersibles for covert operations. He also keeps a modified stealth aircraft that he uses in conjuction with the Justice League. It was destroyed recently in conflict with the Martians but will probably be replace soon with something more advanced. All of Batman's vehicles are resistant to small arms fire and designed to be a durable and maintenance free as possible. Alfred and Harold maintain any vehicles that Batman himself does not have time to keep up. All of the vehicles have microwave connections to the Batcave and to Oracle for data upload or download. All of the equipment can also be driven or controlled by voice or can be designated to autoreturn in the event that Batman is injured.

Facilities
Batman stores all of his technology beneath Wayne Manor in what is called the BatCave. The cavern system beneath Waynne Manor is quite extensive and has not been completely mapped. It did have a connection to the Gotham Subway System and Batman had a high speed railcar that once used that connection to get into Gotham. Batman's information technology is located in the Batcave as well. All of Batman's data is highly encrypted and secure. Besides, Batman, Tim, Alfred and Oracle are the only people with complete access to the Batcave computers. These computers have Batman's criminal database and his connections to other information resources. The cave also keeps what little memorabilia that Batman deems important enough to save.
thats friggin riduculous he can bench 725 pounds...I cannot argue with it though...its just foolish. There is no way a normal unenhanced human could be as fast and agile as Batman and bench that much. Its impossible

[oregondude]

Not ultimate....616
Hulk comes after Captain America because he replaced him and even Rick Jones left Hulk to hang with Cap. Judo is about using an opponents strength against the opponent and that is what Cap did. Batman is just a man....Cap is the perfect man.

Actually Batman is the perfect man, Cap is an enhanced man, meta human levels.

[oregondude]

P.S. - I apologize for the length of my rant. I usually don't argue this much anymore, but you seem to have a better head than most on your shoulders and raised some good points. :up:

All good points. The only thing really keeping anyone from having a completely accurate scenario to base this on is the continuity is way off nowadays. Our heroes were created decades ago, Cap being part of WW2 and then thawed, when was he thawed for todays readers? 1990? 1995? 1983? When was Batman first realized? Was Bruce 10 in 1985? Was year one tot ake place in 1998? 1996? The history of these aged and time tested characters is not as clear as it was, or else they would both be very old by now eh?

You make some great points and as always Corp I have enjoyed your postings. You can see an advantage for both "fighters" for sure and see where one would have an advantage over the other be it a small one.

[TheCorpulent1]

Actually Batman is the perfect man, Cap is an enhanced man, meta human levels.Only because of the fact that he's got everything maxed out simultaneously, basically. The way I understand it, any normal human being could achieve Cap's level in one, maybe two areas, but no one would be able to reach his level in all of them because without the SSS, they'd have to balance and counter-balance each element of their physique against others. Speed and agility would have to be sacrificed for strength, durability for agility, etc.

[ShadowBoxing]

Actually Batman is the perfect man, Cap is an enhanced man, meta human levels.

ARGGGGGG!!!!! Cap is NOT METAHUMAN. He is peak human, that is all. The most Cao can lift is 800lbs (which was for a while the highest recorded). The serum made him peak human that is it, nothing more.
To further prove this point the high evolutionary genetic bomb in a what if was released and evolved Captain A like the rest of the humans (all mutants and super-powered heroes had their mutations enhanced) all humans including Cap, Punisher and Hawkeye had their brain size increased

[ShadowBoxing]

Only because of the fact that he's got everything maxed out simultaneously, basically. The way I understand it, any normal human being could achieve Cap's level in one, maybe two areas, but no one would be able to reach his level in all of them because without the SSS, they'd have to balance and counter-balance each element of their physique against others. Speed and agility would have to be sacrificed for strength, durability for agility, etc.
thats why realistically Batman should not be able to lift 725lbs

[roach]

Actually Batman is the perfect man, Cap is an enhanced man, meta human levels.

Batman is not perfect. It is impossible for a imperfect man to become perfect on his own. Batman is like expecting someone as big as Arnold to be as agile as Jackie Chan and as good a fighter as Jet Li. Impossible to achieve on your own. To become the fastest you have to sacrifice strength as muscle weigh alot. To become the strongest you give up speed. Capatain America has become the pinnacle of human achievement. Cap is on the line. If he becomes stronger he's superhuman/faster he's superhuman/endurable he's superhuman.

[roach]

someone who knows a history of the character past the 1990s...I'm impressed. That was exactly what I was refering to. Good show!

chaulk it up to the old Marvel Age...reprinting old stories in comicbook form

[TheCorpulent1]

All good points. The only thing really keeping anyone from having a completely accurate scenario to base this on is the continuity is way off nowadays. Our heroes were created decades ago, Cap being part of WW2 and then thawed, when was he thawed for todays readers? 1990? 1995? 1983? When was Batman first realized? Was Bruce 10 in 1985? Was year one tot ake place in 1998? 1996? The history of these aged and time tested characters is not as clear as it was, or else they would both be very old by now eh?

You make some great points and as always Corp I have enjoyed your postings. You can see an advantage for both "fighters" for sure and see where one would have an advantage over the other be it a small one.Thanks, same to you.

As far as I know, Cap entered WWII in 1941. He was put in suspended animation a few months before D-Day in 1945, so that's about 4 years of his fighting in the war itself. The Avengers revived Cap a few months after the Fantastic Four's first appearance, which is generally considered to have occurred 15 years prior to the current time in Marvel's comics. So that'd give Cap 19 years total experience, all of which occurs in extremely intense situations (either in the middle of a war or fighting superhuman menaces).

Bruce Wayne swears his oath to avenge his parents when he's 10 or 11 years old. He globetrots, training in a variety of subjects including science, detective work, and martial arts, for 14-15 years and returns to Gotham to begin his fight against crime at the age of 25 (I'm pretty sure that's the age Year One gives). I think Bruce has been Batman for about 13 years at this point, which puts him at age 38 and gives him a maximum of 28 years of experience, only 13 of which are really practical field experience.

[Zaptoitnow]

I agree wiht what Corp and roach are saying. Cap has had his body scientifically enhanced to levels that are impossible to reach by training alone. He is the fastest, strongest and most agile a person could possibly be without having some sort of mutant or super human powers. Batman simply could not be as fast and as strong and as agile as Cap, all at the same time. It's possible that any one person could match Cap in one of these regards, but in order to balance out his body, he would lack in other categories that Cap would still reign supreme in. Now it comes down to skill and tactics, in which the two are almost exactly even. Batman's skill is shown to come from his image and stealth. He inspires fear and confuses his opponents, both things that wouldn't work on someone like Cap. Cap is simply an amazng fighter that while he may not know as much as Batman, fighting styles-wise, can make up for his alck of quantity with quality. I think its still very close in this regard, but even if Batman had the slight edge in skills, he has more to make up for in the physical department than this slight edge can. I think that this gives Cap enough of an advantage to where the majority of the time he will come out on top.

[War Lord]

thats friggin riduculous he can bench 725 pounds...I cannot argue with it though...its just foolish. There is no way a normal unenhanced human could be as fast and agile as Batman and bench that much. Its impossible

What part of comic book character do you not understand? No real human could train like the Batman and no real human could survive the experiments that were done on Steve Rogers. However since this is a comic book, anything goes.

Batman is considered the perfect man in the DC world. He comes as close to having meta-abilities without being meta-human as it's possible.. Any world record for athletic ability that exists, Batman is just slightly under it. That 725 pounds was written when the world record bench press was 730. Since it's somewhat more now, Batman is even stronger than that. It also means he can probably do a sprint in about 9.85 seconds and a marathon in 2:10.

[The Batman]

Batman wins.

[War Lord]

Batman wins.

I think you might be biased.

[Mauser9910]

Even Jackie Chan? NO WAY!!!

(...)

I am not so sure Cap is faster than Batman. Maybe quicker reflexes but faster, no. Cap is much bulkier and is in a solid chain mail shirt and pants. That will be MUCH heavier than Batman's kevlar, as Batman's kevlar is not armored in the joints and such, giving him more freedom of movement.
(...)

One word : CAPE.

[Edaar the Mage]

Hiya, I think you need to look at two different scenario's: 1) Cap vs Bats hand to hand only and 2) Cap vs Bats with all gagets and tech stuff. Cause those are two majorly different scenario's.

In the first I think it should be fairly easy to figure out Caps gonna win hands down every time. He has had the Super-Soldier Serum which gives him advanced Strength, Speed, Relfexes, etc. He is a master tactician and has more experience than Batman has in fighting do to his time in WW2 and his work in the recent years. He also has far more endurance and will simply outlast bats.
In the second I give Bat's a 50:50 chance of winning. His tech in many ways will allow him to make up for his disadvantages with speed/str/endurance. While Cap's shield allows for a nice defense weapon and offensive at times I think we should all agree its nothing like bat's tech. Personally I still see Cap winning in the end but I give Batman a much higher chance of victory.

Btw: The recent max set for the Bench was 1075 set last summer.

Edaar the Mage

[War Lord]

Hiya, I think you need to look at two different scenario's: 1) Cap vs Bats hand to hand only and 2) Cap vs Bats with all gagets and tech stuff. Cause those are two majorly different scenario's.

In the first I think it should be fairly easy to figure out Caps gonna win hands down every time. He has had the Super-Soldier Serum which gives him advanced Strength, Speed, Relfexes, etc. He is a master tactician and has more experience than Batman has in fighting do to his time in WW2 and his work in the recent years. He also has far more endurance and will simply outlast bats.
In the second I give Bat's a 50:50 chance of winning. His tech in many ways will allow him to make up for his disadvantages with speed/str/endurance. While Cap's shield allows for a nice defense weapon and offensive at times I think we should all agree its nothing like bat's tech. Personally I still see Cap winning in the end but I give Batman a much higher chance of victory.

Btw: The recent max set for the Bench was 1075 set last summer.

Edaar the Mage

Source for the new bench?

The international powerlifting federation only lists 770 as its record.

[The Batman]

I think you might be biased.


Why? Because my name's "The Batman"? Whats the problem with me thinking that Batman can beat Captain America? Fact of the matter is, If the writers wanted Batman to beat Cap, he could. in fact, when DC/Marvel were trying to publish the 1983 version of JLA/Avengers, its been said that they had Bats beat Captain America. The Fact is, Batman's had guys like Cap thrown at him many times, and he's always prevailed. So you can say I'm biased all you want. that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[oregondude]

Source for the new bench?

The international powerlifting federation only lists 770 as its record.

I set it in my garage with one arm in a cast and the other covered in orange powder from my cheeto's

THAT is what makes it such an amazing record

[TheCorpulent1]

Why? Because my name's "The Batman"? Whats the problem with me thinking that Batman can beat Captain America? Fact of the matter is, If the writers wanted Batman to beat Cap, he could. in fact, when DC/Marvel were trying to publish the 1983 version of JLA/Avengers, its been said that they had Bats beat Captain America. The Fact is, Batman's had guys like Cap thrown at him many times, and he's always prevailed. So you can say I'm biased all you want. that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.Of course, the other side of that is that Cap's had guys like Batman thrown at him many times and he's always prevailed too. Unless there were significant circumstances involved.