The Official Captain America Thread

[Harlekin]

I don't care for any of the Scott/Jean/somebody triangles, but at least with Warren it was fun. With Logan, it got annoying after a while.

[Xofenroht]

Meh, I always liked Logan more than I did Warren or even Cyke. His was the first X-Character name I learned, followed by Magneto (when I used to get them confused.)

[Harlekin]

It's not that I don't like Wolverine, but his antics with Jean did get pretty old after a while.

[PhotoJones]

Meh, I always liked Logan more than I did Warren or even Cyke. His was the first X-Character name I learned, followed by Magneto (when I used to get them confused.)

You got Wolverine and Magneto confused?

[Xofenroht]

You got Wolverine and Magneto confused?

I was 3. Remember that line of X-toys they put out way back, with the magnetized Magneto and Wolverine in his gold and tan uniform?

[TheCorpulent1]

Ah. I like the original X-Men too, although I can do without Jean. She always feels out of place with the whole boys club thing they've got going on. The interplay between Warren, Hank, Bobby and Scott is always great. True friends and all that jazz. That Archangel/Beast issue after X-Cutioner's Song (which also featured Jubes/Xavier) is still one of the best down-time issues.
Is that the one where they're sifting through the rubble of the mansion? Drawn by Jim Lee? Because if it is, that's actually the exact scene that my mind snaps to whenever I think of how great the original X-Men are when they're together.

[Harlekin]

Is that the one where they're sifting through the rubble of the mansion? Drawn by Jim Lee? Because if it is, that's actually the exact scene that my mind snaps to whenever I think of how great the original X-Men are when they're together.
The rubble of Harry's tavern actually, but yeah, that's the one. Uncanny #297, although not at the hand of Jim Lee. The issue also features a great Jubes/Xavier story.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, it was probably Marc Silvestri or some other artist who desperately wanted to be Jim Lee, then.

Shut up, it's been a long time since I read it. :(

[Harlekin]

Definitely reread it, I plan to, in a sec. It's a great issue.

Also, not Silvestri, but hey, who cares?

[TheCorpulent1]

I do. I also hate you now. :(

[Harlekin]

Why? Are you suddenly incapable of reading?

[PhotoJones]

Wasn't it Brandon Peterson who did that one?

[Harlekin]

Yep.

[PhotoJones]

Was it the one with the Mad cover?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think that's Mad's art:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.297.GIF

[PhotoJones]

I was thinking of a different cover.

[TheCorpulent1]

I want to say that's an Andy Kubert cover, but I apparently don't know anything about people's '90s art styles. :(

[PhotoJones]

Well, the name in the bottom left corner says Peterson, so yeah. You know nothing.

[Harlekin]

MAD comes along way later, friend. This is early 90s. MAD is around the 350s.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, the name in the bottom left corner says Peterson, so yeah. You know nothing.
That ****'s tiny and my prescription says I'm legally blind. **** you. :(

[PhotoJones]

MAD comes along way later, friend. This is early 90s. MAD is around the 350s.

False. Mad started with #312, which is not far off from the issue you posted. The specific cover I had in mind was this one:

http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/101/3807_20060728232857_large.jpg

That ****'s tiny and my prescription says I'm legally blind. **** you. :(

I'm legally blind, too. :o

[Harlekin]

You're right. For some reason I didn't picture him starting till the X-Men fought the Phalanx, with the Cannonball/Gladiator fight preceding it.

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, that was years into his run.

[Dread]

Given Brubaker's retcons, I don't even think "sidekick" is the right name for Bucky. By all indications, Bucky was even more well trained than Steve, since he didn't have the Super-Soldier advantages Steve had. Plus, he was doing a lot more of the actual wetworks. Plus, he received even more training as the Winter Soldier. He's probably a lot more knowledgeable about weapons and lethal tactics than Steve, at the very least. I doubt he could actually outfight Steve one-on-one, but he's gotta be pretty close to even with Steve when you add up the arm, the fact that he learned from one of the most brilliant tactical minds for years, and the generous amount of training he received.

When Cap and Winter Soldier fought in I believe issue #14 or so, the battle was fairly even, although by then Steve knew it was Bucky and thus his heart wasn't fully into it. He didn't let Bucky walk all over him, though.

But, you are correct in that Steve had his super-soldier treatment, but Bucky essentially had to use his own natural talents until the Cold War came along. In some ways it is similar to how Barry Allen's experience as the Flash started when he was an adult, but Wally West's started when he was a teenager, as Kid Flash.

Brubaker did a great job of making some of the corny Golden Age elements like "sidekicks" work out in terms of the war, and without poo-pooing them. I mean, there was a lot of pro-U.S. propaganda back then, and Cap's memory may not have been the best.

They ought to give Clint an MCP story. Show how he's catching up with life now that, y'know, he's got one again.

I wouldn't mind. But so long as he is Ronin, he's Bendis territory and few writers have the nerve to try to step on his toes.

When I left New Avengers, Clint had only had speaking parts in like three of the last five or six issues and only one of them gave me any interesting insight into the character or played any significant part in the story. He's just background filler in that series most of the time. It seems to follow Luke Cage and Wolverine, mostly, with a spotlight issue on Echo now and then.

Things haven't changed. But at least Clint does somewhat more than Iron Fist, who exists to say 1-2 lines per issue of little significance and punch things in group fight shots.

He still doesn't. The Collective storyline, for all it's flaws, was probably the best case of Peter contributing, as far as that book goes.

Spider-Man also related his experience with Sauron and the Savage Land in their second arc. Just saying. It was still stupid. Aside for that, he's been a feeble man-child.

Yes, I know they're Champions there, but they're always the original X-Men first and foremost, in my mind. And I meant them as a whole, too. The interplay between Warren, Hank, and Bobby is always fun, and Scott and Jean as somewhat parental figures for the others was cool, too.

I can see why you like X-MEN: FIRST CLASS too.

[PhotoJones]

What experience did Pete have with Sauron?

[Dread]

What experience did Pete have with Sauron?

He had been to the Savage Land at least once and fought Sauron. Seriously, the harder question is finding villains who Spider-Man, either through his own multiple titles, MTU, guest-stints, or mini's, DIDN'T fight. Which is one of many reasons why his complete suckitude in NA is so grating.

[TheCorpulent1]

Things haven't changed. But at least Clint does somewhat more than Iron Fist, who exists to say 1-2 lines per issue of little significance and punch things in group fight shots.
Yeah, but Iron Fist's got his own kick-ass ongoing to soften the blow of his uselessness in NA. Clint's got nothing.

[PhotoJones]

Isn't Iron Fist the Iron Man of the New Avengers? It seems like they're opperating on his budget.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that was a Rand jet that Dr. Strange was magically--oh, sorry, not magically--unable to save a few issues back. "Team bank" isn't exactly that interesting, though. It just further proves to me that Bendis really doesn't know how to balance a team book. Good team books manage to make every character feel significant in some way, yet several of the New Avengers haven't done much besides appear in the book. Bendis should take some pointers from Busiek or Johns. Johns is having trouble balancing JSA at the moment as well, but to be fair, that team is a true "society" with like 15 or more members right now.

[PhotoJones]

I agree. The way Fraction's writing The Order is the best example of how to juggle a large cast and give everyone equal face time, as well advance the plot each issue.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, telling each issue from the perspective of a different character is usually a good way to go. :up:

[PhotoJones]

Plus, each issue feels like two, they're so crammed with story. :up:

[T'Jai]

and with a rotating cast built into the storyline this can go indefinitely :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's true.

[PhotoJones]

The sales figures may have something to say about that. :(

[Vanguard07]

Bucky should team up with Hercules and Amadeus Cho.

[PhotoJones]

That would be an awful idea. :down

[Vanguard07]

Says you. Anything with Hercules involved cant be that bad.

Also Bucky had a reasonably similar agenda to them.... Untill the end of the last issue at least.

[PhotoJones]

Bucky's story and the story being told with Herc and Cho are completely different in tone and nature.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Herc and Cho just don't want to go to jail. Bucky wanted to murder Tony Stark in cold blood.

[PhotoJones]

Not only that, but when I think of Bucky, I think of Epting and D'Armata's moody atmosphere. That just would not mesh well with the tone of the Hercules story.

[TheCorpulent1]

True. Although the thought of Epting drawing Herc again makes me drool a little. But there's nothing connecting Bucky and Herc, unfortunately.

[PhotoJones]

Epting and D'Armata's art is so good, it makes the rest of my comics weep.

[hippie_hunter]

Says you. Anything with Hercules involved cant be that bad.

Also Bucky had a reasonably similar agenda to them.... Untill the end of the last issue at least.

No they don't, all three characters have radically different agendas.

Hercules is now fighting against S.H.I.E.L.D. because Ares provoked him and Cho is his friend.

Cho is fighting against S.H.I.E.L.D. because he's ignorant as hell and doesn't see anything past his own little world. He sees S.H.I.E.L.D. as an evil neo-fascist organization hellbent on waging war throughout the world even though they're not that bad.

Bucky went after Tony Stark because he thought that he was behind Steve's death. Now he's apparently a registered hero that S.H.I.E.L.D. will leave alone and let him do his own thing as opposed to all the other registered heroes.

[Red]

I was wondering since Bucks the New Cap, does he have to register?

[PhotoJones]

I would assume that he would have to, if he hasn't already. SHIELD may already have files on him anyway, from when Fury was running the show.

[Red]

Yeah but he doesn't technically have any superpowers, besides a badass robotic arm.

[PhotoJones]

And that's enough to have to get registered. The Gauntlet and Armory didn't have powers other than their arms, either.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Engaging in "superhero" activity in a "superhero" fashion also qualifies as registration worthy. But the fact he's taking on Cap's mantle by urge of Stark will probably force him to register anyway, as he'll be allowed to do things that is only covered by Initiative means.

[PhotoJones]

Actually, I doubt Bucky does much at the request of SHIELD or the CSA.

[LouFerignoDemon]

That was part of his agreement. But he is registered under the Initiative. His designation will probably be similar to people like Moon Knight or Falcon (after a fashion) where he's more of a roving agent, rather than a uniform agent. Allowed to flow and do what needs doing wherever he is. He'll probably be asked to check in though.

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, what I'm saying is that I doubt he'll be worrying to much about the checking in part.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ah, I'm sure Stark will have something in place for him to report. I doubt Stark is just letting him go. Probably put a tracer.

[PhotoJones]

I think Stark's smart enough to know that doing anything to Bucky behind his back is not a best move.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Stark wouldn't leave him be, though. Especially given that his whole task is making sure nobody goes unchecked. He's allowing him several freedoms, but I doubt he's not keeping tabs on him.

[PhotoJones]

I'm sure he may keep tabs on him, but you're talking about putting a tracer on him, presumably without Bucky's consent. That's not going to happen.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I can easily see it happening, I see Bucky catching it as well, and just taking it off, but Stark wouldn't let a loose cannon like that go without eyes on him.

[Vanguard07]

I'm sure Stark will try his best to keep tabs on him. But given how long it took them and how difficult it was for all of shield to even find bucky in the first place I doubt Stark'll be all that successful at it.

Hell they havent even found Fury yet.

[PhotoJones]

If Bucky found it, you can bet he'd do more than just destroy it. That could potentially shatter whatever small amount of trust Bucky and Tony have with each other. Tony knows better than that.

[Mr. Green]

I just read the last issue and I honestly can't believe that Bucky will become the new Cap. I'm not sure if it will be cool or lame... I just couldn't picture Bucky as anyone other than Winter Soldier these days.

I guess if it sucks Brubaker can just add more female characters in James Bond movie spy outfits. You can never have too many of those! :word:

[LouFerignoDemon]

If Bucky found it, you can bet he'd do more than just destroy it. That could potentially shatter whatever small amount of trust Bucky and Tony have with each other. Tony knows better than that.


Tony's also an arrogant person who normally deems himself much smarter than his common man, and normally believes he can outsmart them with little to no problem behind their backs. Wouldn't be his first time trying stuff like that with people smarter than him WITHOUT his Iron Man armor to back him up. Where Tony stands now, I fully expect to see Tony try to keep better tabs on him than to just send a few agents to wherever he believes he saw Bucky last.

[PhotoJones]

I just read the last issue and I honestly can't believe that Bucky will become the new Cap. I'm not sure if it will be cool or lame... I just couldn't picture Bucky as anyone other than Winter Soldier these days.

I guess if it sucks Brubaker can just add more female characters in James Bond movie spy outfits. You can never have too many of those!

I don't think Bucky's going to be like the Captain America that we're used to.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't think Bucky's going to be like the Captain America that we're used to.


The whole picture of him using a gun pretty much attests to that. I'm sure in some ways he'll keep the spirit of Cap alive, if anything, in the idea that the individual needs to decide what's right, and not the authority (which is sort of hypocritical, given that Cap has lectured countless times). But he's going to be his own Cap for sure.

[PhotoJones]

Tony's also an arrogant person who normally deems himself much smarter than his common man, and normally believes he can outsmart them with little to no problem behind their backs. Wouldn't be his first time trying stuff like that with people smarter than him WITHOUT his Iron Man armor to back him up. Where Tony stands now, I fully expect to see Tony try to keep better tabs on him than to just send a few agents to wherever he believes he saw Bucky last.

I don't think Bucky's a threat to them anymore, and I think Tony sees this, too. They're all on the same team, now. Plus, Tony's not been portrayed by Brubaker as a dirty player like that, so I have no reason to believe Brubaker's going to start writing him like one.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It wouldn't really be dirty, considering Stark's job and the risk Bucky presents.

It's not like Tony to suddenly say, "Well, looks like in this one particular moment, you've turned a new leaf completely, and you're to be fully trusted."

It's much more along the lines of Bucky showing change and progression, but he's to be monitored. Stark is definitely not the forgive and forget type. He's the, hope for the best, plan for the worst type. Otherwise, in the espionage business, he's the single handed worst director of SHIELD to ever have been.

[PhotoJones]

It would certainly be dirty. Bucky's done with implants, mental and physical. If Stark planted something on him without his knowledge and he found out, that could be enough to push Bucky over the edge. I'm not saying that Stark isn't going to monitor Bucky's whereabouts, I'm just saying he's not going to be a secretive douche about it.

[Mr. Green]

I don't think Bucky's going to be like the Captain America that we're used to.
That's for sure. He's like a "Wolverine" type of badass. Cap was more of a "Cyclops" badass.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It has to be secretive, as he agrees to Bucky's demands of not having to answer to people, but still having to keep tabs on him, and I doubt him telling him up front, "You don't have to answer to me, but keep in mind, I'll be watching you, and you'll be making reports" probably won't work for Bucky. Especially if we're talking about Bucky going over the edge easily as it stands.

Plus, I'm pretty sure most SHIELD agents have tracking devices in most, if not all uniforms, so I doubt it's really dirty, if it's standard stuff anyway.

Stark probably feels for Bucky, but Stark still has a job to do, and he's shown in the past that he's willing to not be so open about it. Will Brubaker commit to Millar levels? No. But putting a tracking device on Bucky wouldn't be Millar levels.

[PhotoJones]

It would be, considering the character of Bucky.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It wouldn't be that low levelled of Stark. It's not like HE trusts Bucky, he's simply fulfilling the wish of his deceased best friend.

[hippie_hunter]

Gluon you're really overlooking the fact that this is Brubaker writing Stark here. Unlike JMS, Brubaker doesn't make Iron Man come off as a total dickbag.

Brubaker's Stark would most likely keep true to his word and have S.H.I.E.L.D. and the C.S.A. leave him alone for the most part.

[PhotoJones]

It wouldn't be that low levelled of Stark. It's not like HE trusts Bucky, he's simply fulfilling the wish of his deceased best friend.

But he does trust Bucky. At this point, he has no reason not to.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It wouldn't really be a dickbag move for Stark. It would be a dickbag move for Stark to reprogram the arm to not obey Bucky after he promised Bucky to take out all the foreign tech out of his body. Putting a tracing device on one of the people he probably considers a risk is anthing BUT a dickbag move.

It's not like he told Bucky, "You're so gone off the radar, I don't CARE what you do."

[LouFerignoDemon]

But he does trust Bucky. At this point, he has no reason not to.


Aside from the whole trying to kill him thing? And all the assassin programming he's had for years? :huh:

He's trusting him with the symbol of American superheroics. It's not like Stark to just fully trust anybody around him. It's not like he's treated his own best friends better.

[PhotoJones]

Aside from the whole trying to kill him thing? :huh:

What part of "AT THIS POINT" is escaping you? They actually sat down and talked about it like grown ups. THEY SEE EYE TO EYE NOW.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah, for the moment. Two minutes before, Bucky was seriously trying to kill him.

Stark isn't some, "Oh well, what's past is past" guy. He's a, "I have my eye on you" guy.

[hippie_hunter]

It wouldn't really be a dickbag move for Stark. It would be a dickbag move for Stark to reprogram the arm to not obey Bucky after he promised Bucky to take out all the foreign tech out of his body. Putting a tracing device on one of the people he probably considers a risk is anthing BUT a dickbag move.

It's not like he told Bucky, "You're so gone off the radar, I don't CARE what you do."

But Stark has no reason not to. Bucky isn't going to fight S.H.I.E.L.D., the C.S.A., or the Registration Act. He isn't join the New Avengers. He isn't going to try and kill Iron Man. I doubt he's going to go underground like Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist.

Stark knows that he's going to try and honor Steve's legacy to the best that he can and he's registered too now. He knows that Bucky doesn't want S.H.I.E.L.D. or the C.S.A. on his back and he's honoring Steve's request to try and help him.

And again, Brubaker's interpretation of Stark is not a total dickbag.

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, for the moment. Two minutes before, Bucky was seriously trying to kill him.

Stark isn't some, "Oh well, what's past is past" guy. He's a, "I have my eye on you" guy.

Do you think Stark is complete idiot, or something? He completely understands Bucky's frustrations with him. Plus, he and Bucky both know that Buck wouldn't actually kill him if it came down to it.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, for the moment. Two minutes before, Bucky was seriously trying to kill him.

Stark isn't some, "Oh well, what's past is past" guy. He's a, "I have my eye on you" guy.

But Tony knew why Bucky was trying to kill him (grief over Captain America's death and thinking that S.H.I.E.L.D. and Stark were responsible).

He knows that Bucky isn't going to try and kill him anymore and he knows that having S.H.I.E.L.D. and the C.S.A. on his back is not a good idea. He's trying to HELP Bucky after all.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But Stark has no reason not to. Bucky isn't going to fight S.H.I.E.L.D., the C.S.A., or the Registration Act. He isn't join the New Avengers. He isn't going to try and kill Iron Man. I doubt he's going to go underground like Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist.

Stark knows that he's going to try and honor Steve's legacy to the best that he can and he's registered too now. He knows that Bucky doesn't want S.H.I.E.L.D. or the C.S.A. on his back and he's honoring Steve's request to try and help him.

And again, Brubaker's interpretation of Stark is not a total dickbag.

Stark also knows that Bucky is much more likely to kill, very capable of falling off the radar, and is a registered superhuman who he's GOING to have to keep track of under the tenuous sign up he just went through.

Keep in mind, this is the summation

Do you think Stark is complete idiot, or something? He completely understands Bucky's frustrations with him. Plus, he and Bucky both know that Buck wouldn't actually kill him if it came down to it.

Apparently YOU think Stark is an idiot. Nobody knows if Bucky wouldn't kill Stark, unlikely, but Bucky was trained as a master assassin, and has only a few more problems with killing over other assassins. Given that we agree on Bucky's mental state as not super stable, and that Stark isn't exactly captain of the team of trust, there's very little to think that Stark is just "La dee dah, here Bucko, have the shield, and don't worry about me keeping tabs on you". He doesn't show this much trust to his own best friends, and has shown the willingness to pull the wool over their eyes if it works best for Stark.

Stark is a strategist, not someone who just sort of goes day to day, assuming the world changes in leaps and bounds, I just somehow severely doubt that he just fully trusts Bucky.

Especially one not of sound mind, who got aggressive under the gun when Stark offers him the job.

But Tony knew why Bucky was trying to kill him (grief over Captain America's death and thinking that S.H.I.E.L.D. and Stark were responsible).

He knows that Bucky isn't going to try and kill him anymore and he knows that having S.H.I.E.L.D. and the C.S.A. on his back is not a good idea. He's trying to HELP Bucky after all.

Helping Bucky doesn't necessarily facilitate dropping the mantle of Captain America on him, and setting him loose without a way to get a hold of him again quickly.

I mean, how do you guys actually THINK he's going to keep tabs on Bucky?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know, I think Bucky might've actually killed Tony. Why wouldn't he? Killing's what he does. :confused:

[PhotoJones]

Killing's what he did.

Apparently YOU think Stark is an idiot. Nobody knows if Bucky wouldn't kill Stark, unlikely, but Bucky was trained as a master assassin, and has only a few more problems with killing over other assassins. Given that we agree on Bucky's mental state, Stark isn't exactly captain of the team of trust. He doesn't show this much trust to his own best friends, and has shown the willingness to pull the wool over their eyes if it works best for Stark.

What part of BRUBAKER'S CHARACTERIZATION OF STARK escapes you?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Then it's a bad characterization of Stark. If not AS bad as Millar's characterization of Stark.


Logic demands Stark wouldn't be so kind.

[PhotoJones]

No, it's a GOOD characterization of Stark. :up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Not at all, if it's almost NOTHING like Stark.

[TheCorpulent1]

Killing's what he did.
Yeah, up until the end of #33. Now that he's trying to live up to Cap's memory, he'll rein it in. But when he had the gun pointed at Stark's face? If Tony didn't speak up and make it clear that he didn't have anything to do with Cap's death, I could see Bucky offing him.

[PhotoJones]

Not at all, if it's almost NOTHING like Stark.

It's almost exactly like the Knauf's characterization, MG. :dry:

Yeah, up until the end of #33. Now that he's trying to live up to Cap's memory, he'll rein it in. But when he had the gun pointed at Stark's face? If Tony didn't speak up and make it clear that he didn't have anything to do with Cap's death, I could see Bucky offing him.

Nah, he'd have choked.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It's almost exactly like the Knauf's characterization, MG. :dry:



Nah, he'd have choked.


Given the fact that Stark really hasn't had a similar situation to compare it to in the Knauf characterization? :huh:

[PhotoJones]

Given the fact that Stark really hasn't had a similar situation to compare it to in the Knauf characterization? :huh:

You said that Stark doesn't trust his friends. The Knaufs and Brubaker would disagree with that. And did you not read the Annual? He put a pretty good amount of trust in Tiger Tyger. You just need to stop reading crappy versions of Stark.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Uh, he's keeping his eye of Tyger Tiger, too, and couldn't officially place a leader he could control in the seat. In case you forgot about that little tidbit.

And Stark has this horrible history of trusting his friends. Rhodes comes to mind.

Oh, and Leonard, his friend, who he promised to leave the case. He sort of lied to him there, too.

The Armor Wars was a case of his friends and his trust he places in them.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, he's a dick. We know that about Stark. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to trace Bucky. I also wouldn't be surprised if Bucky or Fury figured it out and ditched the tracer.

[PhotoJones]

Uh, he's keeping his eye of Tyger Tiger, too, and couldn't officially place a leader he could control in the seat. In case you forgot about that little tidbit.

And Stark has this horrible history of trusting his friends. Rhodes comes to mind.

Oh, and Leonard, his friend, who he promised to leave the case. He sort of lied to him there, too.

The Armor Wars was a case of his friends and his trust he places in them.

You haven't been reading my posts, have you?

[LouFerignoDemon]

I read them, but Stark's characterization (a good one true to the character) wouldn't follow your parameters.

If Brubaker wants to change that, fine. I'll still complain, because then it's a bad characterization of Stark.

[hippie_hunter]

Given the fact that Stark really hasn't had a similar situation to compare it to in the Knauf characterization? :huh:

The Knaufs, Gage, and Brubaker characterizations are rather consistent of Iron Man's character. They all realise that he's done some rather shady things but in reality he's not a total dickbag and he's a good man with good intentions as opposed to more recent characterizations made by JMS.

The Knaufs and Brubaker have had Iron Man show that he is greiving inside over Captain America's death.

Gage and Brubaker show Iron Man as more trusting of other heroes such as Tyger Tiger, the Winter Soldier, and the Falcon. He's allowed Bucky to become the new Captain America despite his attempts to kill him. He's basically leaving heroes such as the Falcon and Bucky alone for the most part.

The Knaufs, Brubaker, and Gage portray Tony Stark as a rather benevolent Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. as opposed to the domineering one we've seen in Sub-Mariner, New Warriors, Black Panther, the Amazing Spider-Man, Thor, etc.

[PhotoJones]

I read them, but Stark's characterization (a good one true to the character) wouldn't follow your parameters.

If Brubaker wants to change that, fine. I'll still complain, because then it's a bad characterization of Stark.

The Armor Wars, Rhodey, all that means nothing. This is Brubaker's book, and he's not shown Tony to any less of a trusting guy. This is what I'm going on, because this is what we'll get. Period.

[hippie_hunter]

Uh, he's keeping his eye of Tyger Tiger, too, and couldn't officially place a leader he could control in the seat. In case you forgot about that little tidbit.

Actually it's the opposite. Stark recognised that in order for change to happen in Madripoor it had to come from within, not from outside forces. And he stated that S.H.I.E.L.D. just simply wanted a ruler that didn't subsidize terrorism and promised that S.H.I.E.L.D. nor the United States would control.

He downright stated that he does not have the time for her to be his puppet, that what happens in Madripoor is her affairs, and he backed her because he knew she would be a good ruler.

[Mr. Green]

No, it's a GOOD characterization of Stark. :up:
:up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

The Knaufs, Gage, and Brubaker characterizations are rather consistent of Iron Man's character. They all realise that he's done some rather shady things but in reality he's not a total dickbag and he's a good man with good intentions as opposed to more recent characterizations made by JMS.

The Knaufs and Brubaker have had Iron Man show that he is greiving inside over Captain America's death.

Gage and Brubaker show Iron Man as more trusting of other heroes such as Tyger Tiger, the Winter Soldier, and the Falcon. He's allowed Bucky to become the new Captain America despite his attempts to kill him. He's basically leaving heroes such as the Falcon and Bucky alone for the most part.

The Knaufs, Brubaker, and Gage portray Tony Stark as a rather benevolent Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. as opposed to the domineering one we've seen in Sub-Mariner, New Warriors, Black Panther, the Amazing Spider-Man, Thor, etc.

Dude, this wouldn't be a total dickbag move. I really don't know how you guys keep thinking it is. It's NOT like he has Bucky's trust, and it's not like Bucky has his. A simple tracking of someone he's promised to take care of, and potential problem isn't something I'd call being a dickbag. One might call it logical.

Does Stark grieve over Cap's death? Yeah. Why? Because Cap is dead. It's not like Stark lost his best friend and went to bang his ex-wife in the past or something. Stark has always been fairly emotional about people he knows.

Does he trust Tyger Tiger? Yeah, in comparison to Madame Hydra, Stark would probably trust Count Nefaria given the options he had to work with. Once again, crucial component of that story: Stark couldn't place just whoever he wanted in there, and Tyger was the only person capable of fulfilling the role. Stark trusts the Falcon to do his job, it's not like the Falcon is off the grid, not reporting in, doesn't answer to anybody, is his own man badass or something. The Falcon submitted to registration, and does his job well, so it's not like he's setting off alarms all over the place.

And as for a domineering dictator, we only find him in those positions when it's asked for. For Namor, he's literally in the role of having to track him down/contain him. The New Warriors literally are an anti-SHRA mini terrorist unit. The Black Panther he didn't really seem like one past asking Storm to submit to registration, because she was actively using her powers, which is a trigger in the SHRA itself. Spider-Man he didn't come off as a dictator at all. :huh:

[LouFerignoDemon]

The Armor Wars, Rhodey, all that means nothing. This is Brubaker's book, and he's not shown Tony to any less of a trusting guy. This is what I'm going on, because this is what we'll get. Period.


That's not good characterization then of Stark, and in turn, then not make SENSE in terms of Stark.

[PhotoJones]

Then that's your opinion. I, of course, disagree.

[Dread]

Yeah, but Iron Fist's got his own kick-ass ongoing to soften the blow of his uselessness in NA. Clint's got nothing.

True. Even if Rand apparently changes costumes between NA and his ongoing. ;)

Yeah, that was a Rand jet that Dr. Strange was magically--oh, sorry, not magically--unable to save a few issues back. "Team bank" isn't exactly that interesting, though. It just further proves to me that Bendis really doesn't know how to balance a team book. Good team books manage to make every character feel significant in some way, yet several of the New Avengers haven't done much besides appear in the book. Bendis should take some pointers from Busiek or Johns. Johns is having trouble balancing JSA at the moment as well, but to be fair, that team is a true "society" with like 15 or more members right now.

Bendis has NEVER been able to handle a team book, ever. His first was a year on Ultimate X-Men, where he spent the first 6 months on Wolverine Team-Up, and then the last 6 introducing Angel & Havok and doing little with them, and trying to focus on Cyclops. Handfuls of characters just sat in the background. Then things got from bad to worse on NEW AVENGERS, and here we are.

His best team book was arguably ILLUMINATI, which had Brian Reed co-writing. MIGHTY AVENGERS isn't bad, but characters fade in and out depending on the issue.

At this stage in the game I doubt Bendis will improve.

I agree. The way Fraction's writing The Order is the best example of how to juggle a large cast and give everyone equal face time, as well advance the plot each issue.

Yeah, telling each issue from the perspective of a different character is usually a good way to go. :up:

Naturally, THE ORDER is Marvel's best team book right now, starring great new characters. It's reward is low sales.

As for Bucky/New Cap vs. the SHRA, Stark is somewhat of a different animal in CAPTAIN AMERICA. In that title, he shows remorse and a sense of honor, while in NEW AVENGERS he gleefully exploits Cap's death to entrap his former allies, or manipulates people quietly in MIGHTY AVENGERS (anyone who thinks Stark threw the leadership position at Ms. Marvel for any other reason than to keep her happy and not nosing around, one either is naive, or is like most of us who don't read her ongoing, which bleeds about 7-10% of it's readers a month). I mean, Dubya kept some cronies in line by giving them nice positions. In other books, Iron Man beats his gauntlet and goes on about how everyone he has done is for the greater good and questioning him is paranoia. In CA he seems genuinely emotionally hampered.

Aside for that, yes, I could imagine that Bucky/New Cap would be registered in some ways like Moon Knight was in MOON KNIGHT #13, although considering that Marc immediately stuffed his registration papers down the throat of a war-crime thug he murdered may lead some to question Stark internally. But as this IS CA, this is a Stark who actually cares about his dead friend's legacy and wanting to make up, in some way, for becoming bitter enemies with him literally days/hours before he was murdered. Anyway, Bucky will be registered, but he won't have to work at Camp Hammond and he won't be stationed to a team against his will.

On the other hand, if Stark wants to moniter him, he doesn't need any drastic actions; Bucky and Black Widow have a history together, and she is one of his most loyal Mighty Avengers. He and Falcon also talk, although Falcon still has some sour grapes. They're all united in stopping Red Skull, though, and so long as SHIELD and Stark can aid in that, Bucky will tow along (although perhaps not follow every order). It is AFTER the threat from Skull is taken down that the hairy business will begin.

[hippie_hunter]

Dude, this wouldn't be a total dickbag move. I really don't know how you guys keep thinking it is. It's NOT like he has Bucky's trust, and it's not like Bucky has his. A simple tracking of someone he's promised to take care of, and potential problem isn't something I'd call being a dickbag. One might call it logical.
Yes it would be a dickbag move because first of all he promised that S.H.I.E.L.D. would leave him alone. Second because it would be pointless because it's not like he's going to be underground, he's an authorised superhero.

Does Stark grieve over Cap's death? Yeah. Why? Because Cap is dead. It's not like Stark lost his best friend and went to bang his ex-wife in the past or something. Stark has always been fairly emotional about people he knows.
Actually he has said that he feels like he's lost one of his best friends. Apparently, you aren't reading Iron Man's own book. Or you're not getting Brubaker's interpretation of Stark.

Does he trust Tyger Tiger? Yeah, in comparison to Madame Hydra, Stark would probably trust Count Nefaria given the options he had to work with. Once again, crucial component of that story: Stark couldn't place just whoever he wanted in there, and Tyger was the only person capable of fulfilling the role.
No in the Iron Man Annual he already had S.H.I.E.L.D. look up on her background and seeing that she had the backing of Madripoor's people he was able to come to his decision to have S.H.I.E.L.D. back her because he knew she would be a good leader for Madripoor and would not subsidize terrorism like Madam Hydra did.

Stark trusts the Falcon to do his job, it's not like the Falcon is off the grid, not reporting in, doesn't answer to anybody, is his own man badass or something. The Falcon submitted to registration, and does his job well, so it's not like he's setting off alarms all over the place.
In Captain America, the Falcon stated that in return for his registration they would leave him alone for the most part and he gets to patrol Harlem. This is pretty much the deal that Bucky got. Considering that he fought against registration, that's a very good deal for the Falcon.

And as for a domineering dictator, we only find him in those positions when it's asked for. For Namor, he's literally in the role of having to track him down/contain him.
No, he was preparing S.H.I.E.L.D. to occupy and control Atlantis, which goes against the characterization of Iron Man in his own damn book and Captain America.

The New Warriors literally are an anti-SHRA mini terrorist unit.
That I'd agree with you there. S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Initiative being the bad guys would make a bit of sense here in this book.

The Black Panther he didn't really seem like one past asking Storm to submit to registration, because she was actively using her powers, which is a trigger in the SHRA itself.
No, Iron Man demanded that Storm register because she is supposedly still a United States citizen despite the fact that she is now a head of state in Wakanda which should exempt her from such a thing. It was really bad writing on Hudlin's part.

Spider-Man he didn't come off as a dictator at all. :huh:
JMS made him come off as such a dickbag in Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four by emphasising the Negative Zone Prison 42, putting in sensors in the Scarlet Spider suit to later steal the Spider-Sense power (which came off as really cool in Iron Man's book), or constantly going after Peter, his supposed "protoge." Or demanding that a Norse god register and submit to a human government in Thor.

[TheCorpulent1]

It wasn't demanding Thor register that was bad in Thor #3. It was the fact that he played like everything was still hunky-dory between them in spite of Clor, and then attempted to threaten him into submission.

To Dread: Ha, the idea of the guy set to replace Captain America being stuck at Camp Hammond like some amateur is pretty ludicrous, now that I think about it. If you're stepping into the shoes of arguably the greatest hero within the Marvel universe, you better damn well have perfected your game already.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yes it would be a dickbag move because first of all he promised that S.H.I.E.L.D. would leave him alone. Second because it would be pointless because it's not like he's going to be underground, he's an authorised superhero.

He promised he'd have no boss to answer to. If such is the case as you say, he just authorised anti-SHRA activities. Keeping tabs on him, and making him do reports would make logical sense, ESPECIALLY for Stark.


Actually he has said that he feels like he's lost one of his best friends. Apparently, you aren't reading Iron Man's own book. Or you're not getting Brubaker's interpretation of Stark.
Dude, you totally missed what I was saying. I didn't say Stark didn't grieve over Cap because he didn't like Cap, or some sense of duty. I'm saying he grieved for Cap because Cap is dead, and probably (next to Rhodes and Happy) was his best friend in the entire world. He helped the guy hide from the government, and still fight crime. I'm saying it's not like Stark HAS IN THE PAST screwed his best friends wife after his death or something.

No in the Iron Man Annual he already had S.H.I.E.L.D. look up on her background and seeing that she had the backing of Madripoor's people he was able to come to his decision to have S.H.I.E.L.D. back her because he knew she would be a good leader for Madripoor and would not subsidize terrorism like Madam Hydra did.
And why did he use them, agin? Maybe you wanna give the whole reason why Stark had to go all undercover about it? Rather than give bits and pieces.

In Captain America, the Falcon stated that in return for his registration they would leave him alone for the most part and he gets to patrol Harlem. This is pretty much the deal that Bucky got. Considering that he fought against registration, that's a very good deal for the Falcon.

Yeah, and the Falcon still has to report, AND turned himself in willingly.


No, he was preparing S.H.I.E.L.D. to occupy and control Atlantis, which goes against the characterization of Iron Man in his own damn book and Captain America.

Yeah, after Namor allegedly assaulted the surface world again.

That I'd agree with you there. S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Initiative being the bad guys would make a bit of sense here in this book.


No, Iron Man demanded that Storm register because she is supposedly still a United States citizen despite the fact that she is now a head of state in Wakanda which should exempt her from such a thing. It was really bad writing on Hudlin's part.

I thought he asked her to AFTER O*N*E* had shown up. If it was before, then like Bendis, apparently they think Stark hates black people, and forces them to register before they break the law, because the SHRA only covers those actively using their powers.


JMS made him come off as such a dickbag in Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four by emphasising the Negative Zone Prison 42, putting in sensors in the Scarlet Spider suit to later steal the Spider-Sense power (which came off as really cool in Iron Man's book), or constantly going after Peter, his supposed "protoge." Or demanding that a Norse god register and submit to a human government in Thor.

I've already explained the Scarlet Spider suit I don't know HOW many times. As for Stark hounding Parker, yeah, THAT was heavily dickish of Stark, but it's not like he just totally oppressed Parker up and to this point. And I think the whole "protege" thing is a bit forced in the idea that Stark was playing Parker for a fool. Parker was giving off all sorts of signs of defection warranting a closer eye on Parker before he flat out assaulted him.

If Stark wanted Pete, and was a dictatorish jerk, then the whole asking Tony for money thing would've ended with Pete in the Negative Zone.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It wasn't demanding Thor register that was bad in Thor #3. It was the fact that he played like everything was still hunky-dory between them in spite of Clor, and then attempted to threaten him into submission.

To Dread: Ha, the idea of the guy set to replace Captain America being stuck at Camp Hammond like some amateur is pretty ludicrous, now that I think about it. If you're stepping into the shoes of arguably the greatest hero within the Marvel universe, you better damn well have perfected your game already.


He threatened to Thor that if Thor didn't take it seriously, or got aggressive, that America would respond aggressively. Stark knows first hand that he can't take Thor. :o

[Dread]

It wasn't demanding Thor register that was bad in Thor #3. It was the fact that he played like everything was still hunky-dory between them in spite of Clor, and then attempted to threaten him into submission.

To Dread: Ha, the idea of the guy set to replace Captain America being stuck at Camp Hammond like some amateur is pretty ludicrous, now that I think about it. If you're stepping into the shoes of arguably the greatest hero within the Marvel universe, you better damn well have perfected your game already.

That may have been one reason why no one officially stepped into the mantle before Bucky. That, and the feeling of hardly anyone being the caliber of person that Steve Rogers was. Frank Castle did it unofficially, and even he couldn't manage it after he killed Hate-Monger (who himself was usurping the costume). I mean, who else can match all that experience?

Really, Brubaker essentially handled the impossible; he revived a 40 year old dead character, made him cool, and built him up to take over for the title hero. Of course, that took over 2 years of development, and it is a shame that for "reviving" other characters the powers-that-be aren't nearly as patient. Doing things the fast way creates chaos. Quality, in story or otherwise, takes time.

As for Thor, yeah, Iron Man essentially committed a lot of ills against him during CW and was essentially giving his "what had to be done" speech, which won't cut it for an angry Thunder God, especially since both were founding Avengers.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Ha, the idea of the guy set to replace Captain America being stuck at Camp Hammond like some amateur is pretty ludicrous, now that I think about it. If you're stepping into the shoes of arguably the greatest hero within the Marvel universe, you better damn well have perfected your game already.
Damn skippy.

[Dread]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141795

Newsarama, please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop beginning every article about every CA issue after #25 with "CAPTAIN AMERICA IS STILL DEAD". It has gotten to the point of annoyance where I want to find the guy who types the articles, and break his fingers. Please, please stop. I know Marvel doesn't always have a lot of integrity, but Brubaker on Cap is one of 'em, so show some class. Even SUPERMAN stayed dead a year. Give that sort of leeway.

Solid interview, as always.

[PhotoJones]

Why doesn't the Skull just get Arnim Zola to make him a new body again, and be done with Lukin?

[Kraven]

I got the first two volumes of Brubaker's run today, can't wait to crack them open this weekend and read 'um. :up:

[Xofenroht]

Why doesn't the Skull just get Arnim Zola to make him a new body again, and be done with Lukin?

I think that's what he's doing. I'm pretty sure it was alluded to in the last issue.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Why doesn't the Skull just get Arnim Zola to make him a new body again, and be done with Lukin?I'm not entirely certain that isn't what happened at the end of last ish.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought they just faked Lukin's death at the end of #33. Brubaker seems to like having the Skull and Lukin share a body. I doubt he's in a rush to separate them.

[PhotoJones]

I think that's what he's doing. I'm pretty sure it was alluded to in the last issue.

Yeah, that's what I thought Arnim Zola was going to do, too. But then, what's the point of going to all the trouble to fake Lukin's death? Just get the Skull into a new body, kill Lukin and be done with it.

[Xofenroht]

Who knows, it could have been his sign to get the ball rolling, so his followers would get the picture.

[PhotoJones]

I doubt it.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or he could've actually killed Lukin and left his body for the good guys to find, since they now know that he was in Lukin's body, while he hops into the clone. That'd be a bait-and-switch on top of another bait-and-switch, which would be pretty cool.

[PhotoJones]

Or he could've actually killed Lukin and left his body for the good guys to find, since they now know that he was in Lukin's body, while he hops into the clone. That'd be a bait-and-switch on top of another bait-and-switch, which would be pretty cool.

It would be cool. Too bad Brubaker nixed it.

[TheCorpulent1]

Bleh.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Or he could've actually killed Lukin and left his body for the good guys to find, since they now know that he was in Lukin's body, while he hops into the clone. That'd be a bait-and-switch on top of another bait-and-switch, which would be pretty cool.

And very Red Skullish...

[TheCorpulent1]

He's always one step ahead in strategy and one step behind in ideology. :up:

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

From your provential point of view.

...heh

[PhotoJones]

He's always one step ahead in strategy and one step behind in ideology.

That's the Skull I know and love. :heart:

[TheCorpulent1]

I still get a charge when I read the climactic scene of "Red Zone" and the Skull goes a little bat**** at the very thought of T'Challa's hands touching him. :D

[PhotoJones]

God love him.

[Xofenroht]

I've got to track that down. That had to be inspired by Hitler's interaction with Jesse Owens after he'd beat out that German dude.

[Dread]

I figure the Skull seems to like being in Lukin's body for some sort of cover. In case he is found, he can perhaps claim to have been a patsey for the Skull, and whose word do the authorities have to go on? The formerly brainwashed Winter Soldier? That may not be good enough for the feds, who don't always fall behind SHIELD and Stark if they can help it. He can even buy time with an insanity defense. I mean, the man literally DOES have two identities. This is a world that called Steve Rogers a traitor, even after he died (at least some people). Lukin/Skull could make laps around legal loopholes if it came to that.

Or, Lukin might have underground connections that Skull may not be able to access without him. After all, Lukin wouldn't be the first figure to fake his death in underworld circles. Hell, Magneto's presumed dead about every other year in Marvel-time, he still gets followers.

Granted, Brubaker probably likes Skull having someone to have psychic banter with, considering he is rather one-note as a villain. He really has no agenda aside for doing bad stuff in the name of doing bad stuff; as Skull said, he is "beyond fascism"; most likely an anarchist. So having Lukin there as some sort of balance is something Brubaker probably likes, especially as Lukin is the only part of Skull's "team" who isn't some sort of devoted underling (besides Dr. Doom, but all Doom did was exchange some stuff with Skull; his involvement was minor).

[Red]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141795.


The one thing I was adamant about this whole scene was that Iron Man wouldn't really be trying to win. I knew some fans would want to see that battle fought all-out, but I felt like the way we've been portraying Tony in our book was different. He's a man on a mission, seeking peace, and not just going to suddenly be trying to KO or seriously injure the man he's trying to save. Plus, I was starting to get a little sick of seeing Tony just fighting everyone in various comics as if he doesn't care about them. It should be really hard for two heroes to get to the point of hitting each other, I think.

At least Bru gets it.

[RockSP]

Bucky: Is this letter fake?

Stark: I may be capable of a lot of things, but not that.

I mean, yeah, I'd make a fake Cap body a couple days after the dude died to lure my former teammates in the New Avengers out so I can pummel and arrest them for not following the rules...but I wouldn't forge a letter.

[TheCorpulent1]

Wasn't the fake body Dickbag, Jr.'s--I mean Ms. Marvel's idea?

[RockSP]

I don't know if they ever said who thought it up. But Stark is the big dawg. It wouldn't have gone down without his approval.

[TheCorpulent1]

True, but I think he at least apologized for it. That makes it kind of... well, not really right at all still, but I guess he tried.

[PhotoJones]

You guys are seriously going by Bendis' characterization?

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Bendis is writing him once or twice a month, so it's gotta be factored in a little bit. Such is the cross all major characters written by multiple writers must bear.

[PhotoJones]

Not really. Brubaker ignores Bendis' characterization, as do the Knaufs do actually write his solo series.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's not really out of character for Tony to grudgingly go along with duping them, though. He respects Cap, but he's still an a**hole at the end of the day and he'll still use whatever means he can to win. They guy killed and imprisoned friends he's known for years, and that's universally true, regardless of whose characterization you're looking at.

[PhotoJones]

That's all up to the writer's interpretation it seems.

[TheCorpulent1]

42 and Civil War are up to writers' interpretations? Huh, I guess you're subscribing to the Bendis philosophy on continuity...

[PhotoJones]

I'm just saying that Brubaker seems to write a considerably different Stark than Bendis or Millar do. I don't really think that's up for debate, either.

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree, he does. But I usually try to factor in stuff from all over and reconcile them somehow. Selectively ignoring canon portrayals of the same character is no better than what Bendis does.

[PhotoJones]

I don't ignore them. I just look past them. :)

[Red]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141891

It seems Bendis is gonna write Bucky in SECRET INVASION. He also mentioned both the New Cap and Thor would be joining Avengers teams :down

[TheCorpulent1]

Uh... you linked to this same page of this same thread. :confused:

[PhotoJones]

Hmm. So that means Bucky's a Mighty Avenger with Thor being a New Avenger. Crappy. :down

[Red]

Uh... you linked to this same page of this same thread. :confused:

"These aren't the Droids you're looking for..."

[TheCorpulent1]

Hmm. So that means Bucky's a Mighty Avenger with Thor being a New Avenger. Crappy. :down
It'd be great if Bucky were a New Avenger, too. "Why do you think I made it clear that I didn't want to be under your authority, Stark?" :D

I see it happening your way, though.

[PhotoJones]

I don't want either one being an Avenger.

[TheCorpulent1]

Me either. At least, not on the current teams. Maybe they'll join the post-SI team(s).

[PhotoJones]

The only thing that could make me happy, even in spite of Bendis continuing to write the Avengers, is if the two teams merged.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Wasn't the fake body Dickbag, Jr.'s--I mean Ms. Marvel's idea?

It was Stark's idea. A little low handed, even for Stark to do that. There was much better way for an ambush, but I guess with them being all careful now after the last ambush, he'd need a new trick. =/

As for Thor on NA? I guess they need the firepower, but with Bendis at the helm, he'll get the downgrade. =/

Bucky on MA kind of goes against Bucky.

[TheCorpulent1]

The only thing that could make me happy, even in spite of Bendis continuing to write the Avengers, is if the two teams merged.
That wouldn't really make me happy given that Bendis would still be writing them. At least as separate teams Bendis seems better able to focus them and give them more of a clear-cut tone and direction (well, with Mighty Avengers, at least). The last thing I want to see is Thor getting stabbed by some Hand ninja. :o

[PhotoJones]

I don't want Bendis anywhere near Thor.

[hippie_hunter]

The only thing that could make me happy, even in spite of Bendis continuing to write the Avengers, is if the two teams merged.

I'd really like to see that too. And Bendis writing it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Bendis is a good writer and Mighty Avengers would have been cool too, sure he went a little overboard with the though balloons, I really like the roster (Black Widow, Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man), and it feels like a true Avengers book.

Unfortunately Cho's delays sorta made me not care anymore and it's no Astonishing X-Men.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't want Bendis anywhere near Thor.


A shame he'll be on an Avengers team, where no matter which one he goes to, it's gonna be written by Bendis.

Get ready for thought bubble/regular speak/thought bubble talk in a Shakespearean style!

[PhotoJones]

And Corp will have to buy it. :)

[LouFerignoDemon]

And then cry, struggling with the idea that no matter how hard he tries, he'll keep buying it.

I hope he goes to the NA for that very reason.

[hippie_hunter]

Hmm. So that means Bucky's a Mighty Avenger with Thor being a New Avenger. Crappy. :down

I can see it the other way around.

As for the new Captain America, Bendis will probably ignore Brubaker's characterization and have him join the New Avengers.

With Thor, Ms. Marvel seems pissed off with Ares constantly because of his bloodthirstyness and they'd want to replace him with Thor.

A person of Thor's power just makes no sense with the New Avengers.

[PhotoJones]

Thor's made it quite clear he wants nothing to with Tony, his team and the registration.

[hippie_hunter]

Actually I remember Thor saying that he's not done with Tony yet and they'll deal with the Pym/Richards/Stark Clor-bot later after kicking his ass.

But Thor in the New Avengers just makes no damn sense at all (just like Dr. Strange). They're an underground street team, not an actual full blown superhero like the Mighty Avengers. The new Captain America would make a lot more sense than Thor.

Although, I'm really hoping that both will end up in the Mighty Avengers instead.

[RockSP]

A person of Thor's power just makes no sense with the New Avengers.

They're going to need that power if they plan to keep facing off against the Mighty Avengers...

Especially with Doc "I can't do $#!t" Strange being so useless.

[PhotoJones]

Actually I remember Thor saying that he's not done with Tony yet and they'll deal with the Pym/Richards/Stark Clor-bot later after kicking his ass.

But Thor in the New Avengers just makes no damn sense at all (just like Dr. Strange). They're an underground street team, not an actual full blown superhero like the Mighty Avengers. The new Captain America would make a lot more sense than Thor.

Although, I'm really hoping that both will end up in the Mighty Avengers instead.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense than Thor joining the Mighty Avengers. Thor's offered up Asgard to any unregistered hero seeking sanctuary. He's upset at both sides for turning it into the fight that they did, but his ideologies are more in line with the unregistered heroes.

[hippie_hunter]

Wait, when did he offer sanctuary?

[PhotoJones]

Wait, when did he offer sanctuary?

Thor #3, dude.

[TheCorpulent1]

And then cry, struggling with the idea that no matter how hard he tries, he'll keep buying it.

I hope he goes to the NA for that very reason.
And Corp will have to buy it. :)
You guys are mean. :(

I'd probably struggle with the decision at least a little bit. Thor's a huge pro for me, but I've passed on Thor comics before, and Bendis is a pretty gigantic con (lolz, pun). I'd have to give it a lot of thought. Hopefully there'll be a creative shake-up and Bendis'll allow someone else to write the team Thor's on. Hopefully. I hope.

****, I'm so screwed. :(
Actually I remember Thor saying that he's not done with Tony yet and they'll deal with the Pym/Richards/Stark Clor-bot later after kicking his ass.

But Thor in the New Avengers just makes no damn sense at all (just like Dr. Strange). They're an underground street team, not an actual full blown superhero like the Mighty Avengers. The new Captain America would make a lot more sense than Thor.

Although, I'm really hoping that both will end up in the Mighty Avengers instead.
Ew, I really don't like the idea of Thor registering or being made subordinate to Ms. Marvel or Iron Man. He's so much better than that. :o

And who's to say the New Avengers will remain street-level for much longer? With the Hood out in the open now, I suspect they'll be facing a lot more supervillains than they have in the past.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Bendis actually seems to possibly be doing something interesting with the Sentry maybe, so there's hope. (Likes instilling false hope)

But as much as I don't see Thor taking orders from Carol or Tony, I see it less from Luke Cage. Though Strange seems to have no problems with it. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe he won't really be taking orders from Cage. Maybe Strange leaves and Thor gives them sanctuary in Asgard because they're essentially homeless. Then he starts giving them assistance where they need it, but on his terms. Or maybe he respects Cage because he's doing everything for his family or something. I could see him taking orders from most other people who aren't Iron Man.

[PhotoJones]

I can't. Not this time around. Honestly, the only person Thor's taking orders from is Steve.

[TheCorpulent1]

What about if Bucky did actually end up on the New Avengers? Steve's hand-picked successor ought to hold some weight with Thor.

[PhotoJones]

I doubt it. And if so, I woudn't like it. Thor means business this time around, and I think the humans have proven to him that they're not worthy to be giving orders to him. Steve, however, gets a pass.

[LouFerignoDemon]

He would follow Steve, I dunno about taking orders. As for Cage, who barks orders, and gets in people's faces when they question them, I see Thor putting a test to his unbreakable skin.

Thor might respect what he's doing, but I doubt that would make him follow someone he would consider an idiot.

[PhotoJones]

With Thor's lecture to Iron Man about trivial hero infighting, I doubt he'd be knocking around any heroes himself over something like that.

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't say "humans." I think Thor is ashamed of the superhumans for their selfish actions with the Civil War. Still, he's gotta get over it sometime, and all he really needs to see is that the heroes are still dedicated first and foremost to saving lives and protecting normal people. Bucky's doing that, putting aside personal grievances to step up and be a symbol in a time when people really need one again.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I mean if Cage tells him to do something, then Thor questions it, and Cage gets back in his face and threatens him like he has his other team, I see Thor putting him in his place.

[PhotoJones]

I wouldn't say "humans." I think Thor is ashamed of the superhumans for their selfish actions with the Civil War. Still, he's gotta get over it sometime, and all he really needs to see is that the heroes are still dedicated first and foremost to saving lives and protecting normal people. Bucky's doing that, putting aside personal grievances to step up and be a symbol in a time when people really need one again.

Is he? I mean, that looks like where Bucky's headed, but we really don't know that for certain. And if Bucky does turn out to be that symbol, I don't see Thor just following him around. It took a long time for Thor to get to the point of being willing to following Steve anywhere.

[demento]

Bucky just needs a big event or two where he can prove his salt and that he's deserving of wearing the colors. Leadership will follow, if not sooner then later.

[hippie_hunter]

Thor #3, dude.

Umm...I just read Thor #3 and he didn't say anything like that.

He said that he was neutral for the time in the registration conflict and was not interested at all in taking either side.

He also simply said that if S.H.I.E.L.D. or the United States government tried to make him and Asgard subordinate to them he will make them pay (and possibly join the side of the New Avengers and other anti-registration heroes).

There will be a time when Iron Man and Thor confront again to deal with Clor and their friendship. I'm hoping that it'll lead to them restoring their friendship that Stark violated.

[PhotoJones]

He also said that Asgard can be a home for any unregistered hero who needs one. Or did you just skip that page?

[Anubis]

I don't' know man. Friends don't clone friends and have them kill big black guys. That's just some unforgivable s**t.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But Bill was black, what does Thor care? :o

[Red]

Bros before hoes?

[Anubis]

Big Arian looking guy offing Black guys? Can't be good for his image. Thor's Publicist s**t himself when he saw that.

[hippie_hunter]

He also said that Asgard can be a home for any unregistered hero who needs one. Or did you just skip that page?
I really can't find that page! I'm holding the copy in my hand right now.

Not only that but providing sanctuary to unregistered heroes is a downright contradiction to Thor's proclaimed neutrality.

[PhotoJones]

Start on page one. Read the words from left to right, top to bottom until the the end of the book. You can skip the ads. :up:

[hippie_hunter]

I did and he says nothing like that at all.

[PhotoJones]

I just looked and it's right there. Read it again.

[Dread]

I'm hoping neither Thor or Bucky/New Cap go anywhere near a Bendis book. It is bad enough that Steve & Barnes had to be drug into WOLVERINE: ORIGINS.

[PhotoJones]

I'm usually a sucker for stories involving any combination of Cap, Bucky, Fury, Logan and/or the Black Widow, but I draw the line at Daniel Way written Wolverine books.

[Dread]

I'm usually a sucker for stories involving any combination of Cap, Bucky, Fury, Logan and/or the Black Widow, but I draw the line at Daniel Way written Wolverine books.

Good. I only read the reviews that Paul O'Brien writes for his X-Axis site, and even those sound terrible.

2007 saw a lot of undue mucking with Wolverine's origin and cluttering it, rather than just letting him do his thing, like in FIREBREAK or something.

Anyway, I don't see New Cap joining any team because he'll be gunning for Red Skull. Unless you count his likely allies in this book of Falcon, Black Widow, and Iron Man a team. They're all Avengers, but...uh, call them Red Skull Squad. :p

[PhotoJones]

The X-Axis guys are flat out retarded. They have no idea how to read a comic book.

[Dread]

The X-Axis guys are flat out retarded. They have no idea how to read a comic book.

Paul O'Brien is the only reviewer on X-Axis.

Just curious, what is it that you think he does wrong when he reviews books?

[CaptainCanada]

O'Brien's one of my favourite reviewers.

"Least favourite" goes to Ray Tate on Line of Fire; he's just nuts.

As to Bucky joining a team, I don't see it; weirdly, though, his allies are basically all registered, from ardent Pros like Black Widow and the big kahuna himself, Iron Man, to reluctant ones like Falcon; even Sharon was pro-Reg until Goliath got iced, so she fundamentally doesn't have a problem with the concept.

[RockSP]

even Sharon was pro-Reg until Goliath got iced,

Damn, and his so called "friends" like Pym and Ben Grimm have been pretty nonchalant about the whole thing...

[Stallion9979]

has anyone given any thought to the idea that maybe the Cap that was killed may have been a Skrull and that the real Cap could return during SI...

that Civil War itself may have been an attempt by the Skrulls to divide the heroes of Earth and soften them up for an invasion...

Divide and Conquer style....maybe both Cap AND Iron Man were skrulls....

it just sounds like something marvel would do these days in their books...

[CaptainCanada]

He wasn't a Skrull. Skrulls in disguise revert to their original appearance on death. Bendis, Joey Q, and Brubaker have said straight out that Cap was not a Skrull.

[Stallion9979]

they also said that Peter being unmasked would stick...

[Anubis]

He's not a Skrull. He's dead. Accept it. Move on.

[Xofenroht]

they also said that Peter being unmasked would stick...

Yeah dude, you're acting as if that's some ingenius idea you just cooked up. When, I think every fan who read about Cap's death and knows about SI has thought of it as an option.

[Stallion9979]

nah im actually not a big Cap fan I was just tossing somethin out there...

[GNR]

The X-Axis guys are flat out retarded. They have no idea how to read a comic book.

Totally agree.

It's hard to take the guy seriously.He mostly reviews x-centric stuff,well when I used to frequent there.

[BrianWilly]

I used to follow his reviews, but for the longest time now all he's been doing is repeating the exact same comments and complaints over and over again, with maybe some grammatical changes every now and then.

Which kind of explains why Dread would like him, now that I think about it.

OHHHH! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-iceburn.gif

[Dread]

I used to follow his reviews, but for the longest time now all he's been doing is repeating the exact same comments and complaints over and over again, with maybe some grammatical changes every now and then.

Which kind of explains why Dread would like him, now that I think about it.

OHHHH! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-iceburn.gif

Then when I mock his devotion to Whedon, he cries about how I am prejudiced against him.

Sissy. :o

I disagree with O'Brien's opinions rather often on many titles, and know his biases rather well, but unlike you, I don't cry a river if I think someone's midjudging my opinions (at least in this instance). I don't give a flying ****. Which I meant in a light-hearted way, thus adding the obligatory smilie. :p

[BrianWilly]

What I think is you literally have no idea how snarky you come off in posts. Especially when you are even the least bit confrontational.

":p"

[Dread]

What I think is you literally have no idea how snarky you come off in posts. Especially when you are even the least bit confrontational.

":p"

I do most times. I won't say 100%, because that'd be an outright lie, but I often do. Sometimes it is intentional.

Sweet Buffy, are you aware of how snarky you come off? I'm sure we could agree we're both snarky. You're more confrontational than I am most often. I have to be riled, or have the energy. You see a point you disagree with and became WILL THE DEBATER, flinging derogitory Buffy-speak with your barbed points.

[BrianWilly]

Ah, yes. I fail to see how you can not see how you came off as condescending at best, aside for the fact that you are used to your own style and can't objectively see it from the outside.

":p"

[Dread]

Ah, yes. I fail to see how you can not see how you came off as condescending at best, aside for the fact that you are used to your own style and can't objectively see it from the outside.

":p"

But, Sweet Buffy, you can objectively see your own style from the outside, and are beyond mere mortals like me. You are the Angelous, after all. :up:

[Red]

http://livingbetweenwednesdays.blogspot.com/2008/01/captain-america-33-in-30-seconds.html

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, I read that earlier. That blogger's opinions on a lot of things suck, but that was genuinely pretty chuckle-worthy. :)

[PhotoJones]

I can't see it. :(

[Red]

The Falcon: Try not to be a douche to Bucky Iron Man
Iron Man: I can't say that I'll try, but I'll try to try

[PhotoJones]

Haha. :up:

[Dread]

http://livingbetweenwednesdays.blogspot.com/2008/01/captain-america-33-in-30-seconds.html

That's pretty cute. ;)

[Captain Useless]

He might suck at drawing, but his writing is top notch.

[TheCorpulent1]

Her. It's a woman's blog.

[Captain Useless]

Her. It's a woman's blog.

Damn you corpulent, you always manage to make me feel stoopid.

[TheCorpulent1]

S'what I do. :up:

Seriously, though, there's a picture of her right on the side of the blog.

[Red]

I'd do her :up:

[Captain Useless]

I was born without the ability to distinguish gender :(

[Upset Spideyfan]

So you live up to your name then.

[PhotoJones]

I liked the cutesy drawings.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it was funny. :up:

[PhotoJones]

There are a lot of really decent comic related blogs out there. The trick is finding them.

[TheCorpulent1]

I subscribed to the erislaughs vlog on YouTube. She's kind of goofy and she makes me laugh, even if her opinions on some comics suck.

[PhotoJones]

You think her emoness is hot.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, she's not unattractive to me. But she comments on a lot of the Stack's podcasts, which I also watch, and I agree with her on a lot of comics.

[PhotoJones]

Corp digs emo chicks.

[TheCorpulent1]

Tattoos and bedhead get me hot. :(

[PhotoJones]

You just described me. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Are you hitting on me?

[Upset Spideyfan]

Corp and Jones 4 eva.

[Xofenroht]

I can't even come up with a witty response to that one.

It's just a really hard pill to swallow.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, there's your problem. Maybe if you weren't on drugs, you'd be wittier.

[PhotoJones]

Everytime a person takes an illegal drug, a kitten dies.

[TheCorpulent1]

We all need to do more drugs. :up:

[PhotoJones]

You're a cruel bastard.

[TheCorpulent1]

If I'm presented with an opportunity to end the kitten plague once and for all, who am I to argue?

[Havok83]

so does anyone know who the new Cap is?

[TheCorpulent1]

Bucky.

[PhotoJones]

If I'm presented with an opportunity to end the kitten plague once and for all, who am I to argue?

But kittens are like black babies. You know, cute when they're little.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm not touching that.

[PhotoJones]

:confused:

Black baby:

http://vidar.gimp.org/pi/blackbaby.jpg

[TheCorpulent1]

Ew, I'd never touch that, either.

[PhotoJones]

But it's so cute. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

It looks like a burned fetus.

[storyteller]

nightcrawler?

[PhotoJones]

Possibly. Either that or cat-Beast.

[Spider-Gamer]

Possibly. Either that or cat-Beast.

Cat-Beast...ugh. :down

[donaldthe3rd]

I know this is a little off of what everyones talking about but its been bugging me for awhile now. Everyday in my art class a few of my friends and I do pretty much nothing but talk and talk about comics. Two of my good friends are big fans of Ironman and I have told them about Civil War and with Caps death and all. Now I'm not saying I'm an expert or anything on comics (even though their my life *tear*) but it seems that nowadays I can't mention comic books to them without them completely putting down Cap for being killed.
Ive tried countless times to defend our Star Spangled friend but it seems to me that their just not mature enough or really thinking about who Captain America was and what he stood for. So to sum this all up because I'm ranting here, I was wondering if anyone could help me find a way to show my friends just how great Captain America really is, without getting into a big arguement about how Ironman comes no where close to Captain America when it comes to being a hero (in my books).

[TheCorpulent1]

Iron Man placed innocent people in danger to further his own agenda. There, Captain America wins. :)

[PhotoJones]

Cap is the one mortal who Thor would follow into battle, no matter the circumstance.

[Xofenroht]

Cap is cool.

And I'm not on drugs...

...right now.