The Official Captain America Thread [Archive] - Page 20

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Upset Spideyfan

07-01-2009, 08:54 AM

Loved Sin calling Bullseye a traitor.

TheCorpulent1

07-01-2009, 08:56 AM

I loved Bullseye not giving a s***. :)

I hope Crossbones makes it out of jail soon. I don't know why, exactly, but there's just something about him that I love. He's easily my favorite Cap villain.

Upset Spideyfan

07-01-2009, 09:02 AM

Cool name/mask and doesn't give a **** killer attitude might have something to do with it.

TheCorpulent1

07-01-2009, 09:06 AM

Yeah, definitely. I think what I like most about him is that he's just a really, really, really skilled and totally ruthless brawler, though. He's not a super-badass martial artist like 99% of the other unpowered characters in comics. He's hardcore enough to be a match for Captain f***ing America simply by knowing how to use tactics, bob and weave, take his lumps, and give as good as he gets. There's a charm to that simplicity that the super-ninjas and stuff lack. He's like the Jack Bauer of terrorists.

Upset Spideyfan

07-01-2009, 09:10 AM

He's like the Jack Bauer of terrorists.

With all the villains getting their own comics they should give him one too, if only to call it:

Crossbones

The Jack Bauer of Terrorists

TheCorpulent1

07-01-2009, 09:14 AM

Hahaha, that would be great. Unlikely, but great. Maybe he could pop in on Deadpool's comic, though. That's always a haven for unsavory types. I first started to like Bullseye because of his appearances in Deadpool. Before that he was just "that dude who constantly gets his ass kicked by Daredevil" to me.

Upset Spideyfan

07-01-2009, 09:16 AM

Wait!

Brainstorm!

Joe Kelly writing a comic starring Deadpool, Bullseye and Crossbones!

TheCorpulent1

07-01-2009, 09:17 AM

Throw in Constrictor and I'm there. :up:

WompuM

07-01-2009, 03:08 PM

So, I picked up Captain America Reborn. I haven't been reading the series since the end of Bucky's first arc and I am fairly disappointed. I'm sorry but a hero whose old sidekick is taking over in his absence is revealed to be displaced in time?

Really? REALLY!?!
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/vossjz/snl-weekend-update-thursday.jpg

I'll probably skip the rest of this now.

Colossal Spoons

07-01-2009, 03:16 PM

^Are you talking about Batman or Captain America :(

hippie_hunter

07-01-2009, 03:31 PM

Both

Colossal Spoons

07-01-2009, 03:44 PM

Ugh

louiebling$

07-01-2009, 05:21 PM

Yea ummm ok Steve is lstuck in time and space ?? Then who's body they bury?

Tron Bonne

07-01-2009, 05:25 PM

If I were to guess:

The gun Sharon shot Cap with didn't kill him but somehow displaced his 'essence' (or something around those lines) in time and, at the same time, left an empty shell of a body behind

That's what I'm guessing anyway, and I think that would explain how his 'soul' showed up in Thor. Well, if they acknowledge that at all

WompuM

07-01-2009, 05:26 PM

Or, her gun contained a miniature Darksied and he shot Steve with Omega Beams.

Tron Bonne

07-01-2009, 05:28 PM

Or maybe...it was Cap. in a Batman suit who really got hit with the Omega Sanction in Final Crisis

Or maybe not...

WompuM

07-01-2009, 05:41 PM

Woah. You just blew my mind.

hippie_hunter

07-01-2009, 05:55 PM

Or maybe...it was Cap. in a Batman suit who really got hit with the Omega Sanction in Final Crisis

Or maybe not...

I smell crossssssoverrrrr!!!

louiebling$

07-01-2009, 06:09 PM

JustABill

07-01-2009, 06:29 PM

Yeah, I expected better from Brubaker. It's like Captain America is getting Batman back for ripping it off or something. :o

kguillou

07-01-2009, 06:34 PM

Wow, just wow, theres no WAY Brubaker planned this all along. This story reeks of "put together at the last minute". He really expects us to swallow this?

JustABill

07-01-2009, 06:41 PM

Wow, just wow, theres no WAY Brubaker planned this all along. This story reeks of "put together at the last minute". He really expects us to swallow this?
Yeah, this so doesn't seem what he had in plan in his grand scheme of things. I'll continue to read to see if he cane make anything out of this, but I'm a bit worried. :(

Watchman

07-01-2009, 06:56 PM

Wait, why do people think this is bad? Is it the time platform that has been mention well before this issue?

hippie_hunter

07-01-2009, 07:16 PM

It's not bad, but it seems like DC and Marvel are trying to have Batman and Captain America rip each other off.

HR-PUFF&STUFF

07-01-2009, 07:26 PM

It's not bad, but it seems like DC and Marvel are trying to have Batman and Captain America rip each other off.only batman is playing catch up.

TheCorpulent1

07-01-2009, 07:58 PM

Wait, why do people think this is bad? Is it the time platform that has been mention well before this issue?
I have absolutely no clue what the problem is. Resurrection stories make no sense by their very nature. I mean, I love Brubaker's run as much as the next guy, but his "master plan" for bringing Bucky back was that he never really died in the first place and he got brainwashed while spending the better of half a century in cryogenic stasis under the Soviets. That's stupid, guys. Steve's resurrection is a little stupid too. So what? Resurrections always are. The means doesn't have to be great, just the journey back to life, and it looks like we're gonna get a doozy with Cap. Just go with it and enjoy the rest of the issue, which was fantastic.

JustABill

07-01-2009, 09:46 PM

The issue wasn't even all that fantastic. It was just sorta blah. Brubaker could have definitely done much better and this does not seem like it's the natural progression of his story at all. It seems ''tacked on" for the sake of getting Steve back before the movie.

hippie_hunter

07-01-2009, 10:14 PM

only batman is playing catch up.

Not really, if you look it up and think about it.

Both Jason Todd and Bucky, both former sidekicks of Batman and Captain America came back from the dead literally at the same time as murderous psycho paths, with the Red Hood coming out a month before the Winter Soldier. Chalk one up for Batman, plus Batman deserves kudos because Jason Todd actually died and came back being revived by reality altering punches by Superboy-Prime, as opposed to Bucky being revived by the Russians in a similar, but more brutal and tragic, manner that Captain America was.

Then you have Captain America getting killed in an assassination attempt orchestrated by the Red Skull, followed by Batman getting killed by the Fifth World incarnation of the evil New God Darkseid. Chalk one up for Captain America.

Then you have their protégées replacing them with Bucky taking over the mantle of Captain America before Dick Grayson taking over the mantle of Batman. Add another for Captain America.

And now we have Batman getting killed by Darkseid's use of the Omega Sanction so it really doesn't kill him per say while leaving a corpse at the same time displacing him throughout time and space through multiple times, multiple universes, and multiple scenarios. Then you have it revealed that Captain America was killed in a similar way that left a corpse but not really killing him displacing him throughout various times throughout his life. Point goes to Batman and more kudos as well for Batman for going above and beyond in time/space complication.

Now there is also the manner of resurrection. Steve Rogers will be coming back this year and return to his respective mantle. Bruce Wayne on the other hand is probably going to have to wait until late 2010/2011 to come back. So the point has to go to Captain America.

So what we have here out of five instances is Batman doing things first twice and going above and beyond those measures that his books have done first and Captain America doing things first three times, however Captain America deserves a thumbs up for the better quality in storytelling.

You really can't say that Batman is playing catch-up when essentially Captain America and Batman are continually ripping each other off equally.

BrianWilly

07-01-2009, 10:44 PM

Yeah, I wasn't impressed by that "unstuck in time" nonsense at all. I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't that. He was shot in the stomach with a bullet and we saw him bleed his guts out and his corpse is now rotting at the bottom of the ocean. And his ghost is suppose to be chilling in the aether or whatever, occasionally chatting with thunder gods. But now all of a sudden, nope, we get a time-travel plot. Not just a time-travel plot, mind you, but the gun that shot him and made him bleed his guts out is now somehow a time-travel device thingy something.

Yeah, it reeked of "Deadly Genesis"-caliber Brubaker. There, I said it.

I suppose a part of it is that I'm still incredulously bitter that they've kept Bucky as Cap for all of, oh I dunno, ten or fifteen minutes.

RemySummers2008

07-01-2009, 11:35 PM

As a massive LOST fan, I can not believe how blatantly Brubaker ripped off "The Constant", even referring to Sharon as Cap's constant. Unbelievable.

storyteller

07-01-2009, 11:52 PM

I really do hope Rogers either dies again(But Bucky and co get the approval of Rogers) or he becomes an old man and so cant do his thing anymore.

imdaly

07-02-2009, 12:41 AM

As a massive LOST fan, I can not believe how blatantly Brubaker ripped off "The Constant", even referring to Sharon as Cap's constant. Unbelievable.

I just came in here to say the same thing.

RemySummers2008

07-02-2009, 12:54 AM

I just came in here to say the same thing. It's 100% plagerism. If brubaker was in school and this was a paper, he'd get expelled for turning in a paper he bought. Absolute rubbish. Jey everybody...guaranteed spoiler here. Sharon will be the one who as Steve's "constant" gets him unstuck in time. Don't bother buying the other four parts. That's exactly how it will end.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 08:05 AM

BlackLantern

07-02-2009, 08:08 AM

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 08:12 AM

Well, I actually like Lost. But I know it's not doing anything particularly new. It's just representing familiar sci fi concepts in interesting ways with a focus on characters first, which I appreciate.

Tron Bonne

07-02-2009, 09:43 AM

That's just ridiculous. It's not like Lost was super-original with that in the first place. Hell, Sliders had this element in their show like ten years ago. It's just that no one cared enough about Colin to actually try and get him back. I'm sure there are some sci fi novels with concepts like time travel and constants as well. Sci fi concepts are pretty hard to be innovative with because the genre's been around for centuries and people smarter than us have done just about everything you could think of with it.

I totally agree, but as far as I know the idea hasn't been used in mainstream media, or really indy medium, for quite sometime, and I can see where people are seeing the comparison. I haven't read the issue yet but it does sound very similar to what was going on this season of Lost.

Though you're right, it's not really a hugely original idea to begin with, and if Bru really had this planned from the get go of Cap's death it was probably just one of those odd times of writers having a similar idea around the same time.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 09:45 AM

Yeah, I find it about as credible as people claiming Brubaker is ripping Morrison off or vice-versa. They happened to have similar ideas at similar times. It happens.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 10:34 AM

well said, Corp.....you toolboxes need to stop believing that LOST is the most original show on TV and all must bow before its majesty, because its not....at all
I don't think anyone said or did that. It's just one hell of a coincidence for Brubaker to be using the same concepts--and even the same terminology--that Lost has been using for the past two years.

Watchman

07-02-2009, 10:37 AM

They're all taking it from Slaughterhouse Five anyway :o

Cap isn't pulling a Sawyer he's pulling a Billy Pilgrim.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 10:39 AM

Either way, Captain America shouldn't be a sci-fi book. I didn't like the way the Cosmic Cube was used to affect Red Skull and Bucky, and I don't like the way they're using time travel to bring back Steve.

Watchman

07-02-2009, 10:41 AM

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 10:42 AM

It's a comic book, why does everything have to be shoehorned into a genre. Even Sgt. Rock did some time travel.

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 10:43 AM

Captain America has always been a science fiction book.

Yeah, I was a bit confused there for a moment, iirc the cosmic cube is constantly making appearances in Capt. America. Or did I imagine that?

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 10:44 AM

Doesn't bother me. I don't know why people feel the need to cut comics off from all other genres just to fill some arbitrary role they've decided that character ought to have. Captain America lives in a world of cosmic cubes and time travel and living gods and all kinds of wonky s***. It's only natural that some of that wonky s*** will make its way into his comic.

But that's besides the point. We're dealing with a resurrection story here, so what, pray tell, would be a 'plausible' (note the single quotes for irony) means of restoring life to a dead man for those having trouble with the sci fi elements?

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 10:45 AM

Yeah, I was a bit confused there for a moment, iirc the cosmic cube is constantly making appearances in Capt. America. Or did I imagine that?
Did you stop reading mid-sentence? I said I didn't like the use of the cosmic cube in these stories.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 10:46 AM

Jesus, can we ban Blader for real?

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 10:48 AM

Did you stop reading mid-sentence? I said I didn't like the use of the cosmic cube in these stories.

Uh no.

You said,

Either way, Captain America shouldn't be a sci-fi book. I didn't like the way the Cosmic Cube was used to affect Red Skull and Bucky, and I don't like the way they're using time travel to bring back Steve.

You are not talking about Captain America comics as a whole in that statement but Brubaker's run specifically.

But that's besides the point. We're dealing with a resurrection story here, so what, pray tell, would be a 'plausible' (note the single quotes for irony) means of restoring life to a dead man for those having trouble with the sci fi elements?

Brother Voodoo turns him into a Zombie.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 10:52 AM

Uh no.

You said,

You are not talking about Captain America comics as a whole in that statement but Brubaker's run specifically.
for ****'s sake...

Okay, let me rephrase it: I don't think Brubaker's Cap should be a sci-fi story.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 10:53 AM

for ****'s sake...

Okay, let me rephrase it: I don't think Brubaker's Cap should be a sci-fi story.

So Brubaker's Cap or Captain America in general. You're being real confusing for a real stupid reason.

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 10:55 AM

for ****'s sake...

Okay, let me rephrase it: I don't think Brubaker's Cap should be a sci-fi story.

I honestly don't get what we're arguing about here.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:00 AM

It's not like Cap is flying into space on the Cap rocket and fighting aliens. The fact is, Cap is sci-fi. The Super Soldier serum is the beginning. The Cosmic Cube has always been a factor with Cap and the Red Skull. I love how Blader never had a problem with Sci-Fi elements in Cap before. Like Red Skull and his 37 different bodies as his consciousness flies around.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:06 AM

Yeah, Cap had his own little clone saga with the Red Skull. The time he had to wear sci fi armor to make up for the failing Super-Soldier Serum. Cap-Wolf. That house that was bleeding dough! Cap's got sci fi like a hooker's got crabs.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:08 AM

Hooker's got crabs yo.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:11 AM

S'what I'm sayin'.

WompuM

07-02-2009, 11:13 AM

Surprise surprise, the southern Floridians know that hookers have crabs.

There are certainly shades of grey with sci-fi. Super serums and robot arms are one thing, but time travel that doesn't involve icebergs? I don't think so. *Fred Willard*

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:14 AM

Dude, we just know ****.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 11:25 AM

I honestly don't get what we're arguing about here.

I just feel Brubaker's Cap already does well for itself without having to indulge in sci-fi or mystical elements. Things like SHIELD's flying convertibles or Zola being a human mind in a robotic body don't really bother me because they're cosmetic details. But using cosmic cubes and time bullets or whatever to solve major plot points feels like a cheat, and Brubaker's run is (ususally) above that.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:27 AM

I ask again: what would be an acceptable, non-sci fi, non-mystical way to bring a man back from the dead after going to all the trouble of showing us that he was really, truly dead in several ways?

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:29 AM

The first issue of Brubaker's Captain America used the cosmic cube to bring the Red Skull back. Did you miss that?

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 11:31 AM

I ask again: what would be an acceptable, non-sci fi, non-mystical way to bring a man back from the dead after going to all the trouble of showing us that he was really, truly dead in several ways?
None that I can think of off the top of my head, but it's kind of a moot point, since I think Steve shouldn't be coming back at all. Like you just said, his death looked pretty final and Brubaker had even said as much back when it happened, so to bring him back at all--much less through time travel--feels like a cheat to me.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:33 AM

No offense, but that's pretty gullible of you. Everyone knew Steve would be back eventually. No major heroes stay dead forever. Hell, not even Jason Todd stayed dead forever and everyone other than Winick hates him.

So, given that we should've known exactly what we were getting into with Reborn, I had no problem with the resurrection scenario presented.

WompuM

07-02-2009, 11:39 AM

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:41 AM

I've explained this in The Rayner-West Effect and Dick Grayson Syndrome.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 11:41 AM

No offense, but that's pretty gullible of you. Everyone knew Steve would be back eventually. No major heroes stay dead forever. Hell, not even Jason Todd stayed dead forever and everyone other than Winick hates him.

I didn't say I wasn't expecting it (though truthfully, I didn't think it was going to happen for another year or two), I just didn't want it to happen period. Of course Steve was going to come back at some point, that doesn't mean I like the idea of it.

WompuM

07-02-2009, 11:42 AM

Link to an old post?

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:43 AM

That's because you have horrible opinions and are one of those "Steve is boring" people. Blade has me on ignore right?

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:43 AM

But why set up Bucky for such a short run? There are two similar instances. First, is Bart's short run, which was an editorial **** up of epic proportions, and second, Mon-El guarding Metropolis. It's not like they gave Mon-El a Superman costume. I don't see why Bucky had to turn to Cap for such a short time and not remain the Winter Soldier. I get that Cap was a symbol, but he also died a martyr. What better symbol is there?
People prefer Steve. Maybe they figured interest in Bucky would die down if they let him go on as Cap for too long. Who knows? The only thing that's certain is that Steve was definitely coming back at some point. Believing otherwise probably means you're chronically naive or you haven't been reading comics long enough.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:45 AM

Link to an old post?

Rayner-West Effect (http://darthphere.livejournal.com/38947.html)

Dick Grayson Syndrome (http://darthphere.livejournal.com/39679.html)

JustABill

07-02-2009, 11:47 AM

People prefer Steve. Maybe they figured interest in Bucky would die down if they let him go on as Cap for too long. Who knows? The only thing that's certain is that Steve was definitely coming back at some point. Believing otherwise probably means you're chronically naive or you haven't been reading comics long enough.
I actually prefer Bucky. I just think Steve isn't what Captain America would be in today's age, whereas Bucky is. I have no problem with Steve. I have no problem with him coming back. I just don't think he should be Captain America anymore. Give him a new role.

None the less I knew Steve would come back, I just didn't think it'd be so hastily thrown together in the middle of a story that didn't seem to be going there at all for a long while coming.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 11:48 AM

What should Captain America be in this day and age exactly?

JustABill

07-02-2009, 11:49 AM

What should Captain America be in this day and age exactly?
He wouldn't be Steve. Steve's much too old fashioned of a guy to be what represents America today.

Blader5489

07-02-2009, 11:50 AM

That's because you have horrible opinions and are one of those "Steve is boring" people. Blade has me on ignore right?
Nope.

People prefer Steve. Maybe they figured interest in Bucky would die down if they let him go on as Cap for too long. Who knows? The only thing that's certain is that Steve was definitely coming back at some point. Believing otherwise probably means you're chronically naive or you haven't been reading comics long enough.
Seemed like there was plenty of people who liked Bucky as Cap, though. I could understand if he turned out to be an unpopular character, or if the book's sales started to tank, but that wasn't the case here.

WompuM

07-02-2009, 11:50 AM

What should Captain America be in this day and age exactly?

Millar's ultra-conservative ultimate cap. :hehe:

Watchman

07-02-2009, 11:51 AM

What should Captain America be in this day and age exactly?

Facebook and Nascar :o

JustABill

07-02-2009, 11:51 AM

Millar's ultra-conservative ultimate cap. :hehe:
I hate that guy. :cmad:

JustABill

07-02-2009, 11:52 AM

Facebook and Nascar :o
Excuse me it's....

Myspace and Nascar.

Sally Floyd would be so disappointed in you. :o

WompuM

07-02-2009, 11:53 AM

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:54 AM

I just have a different perspective on it, I guess. I never, ever viewed Bucky as a permanent replacement for Steve. This has always looked, smelled, and sounded like a big mega-arc centered on Bucky's redemption. He's achieved that redemption and the natural conclusion is for Steve to return and Bucky to move on to whatever. I'm a little concerned about what that "whatever" is because I really like Bucky and don't want to see him stuck in limbo. But that's my only worry and/or complaint about Reborn, depending on what happens with Bucky. There was never a doubt that Steve would come back and, given all the resurrections I've seen in comics, there was never a doubt that it would be awkward and contrived because, however you slice it, there's just no way to suspend disbelief enough for a dead man returning to life to seem plausible. I just don't see the point in quibbling over minutiae like the means or the timing of the resurrection.

JustABill

07-02-2009, 11:56 AM

Kitsune

07-02-2009, 11:59 AM

He wouldn't be Steve. Steve's much too old fashioned of a guy to be what represents America today.

Yeah, he doesn't even have a Myspace or Facebook account.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 11:59 AM

This just feels not only contrived and awkward it feels as if it happened in a part of the story it wasn't suppose to. Bucky had just really settled into being Captain America after so much build of getting him there and then it's all of sudden blonde bimbo goes ''Oh yeah, that gun was totally not a real gun." Despite the fact that it totally was. :o
The illusion falling apart bugs me a little bit as well, since there was never an indication in the issue Cap died in that we were seeing things via an unreliable narrator or through Sharon's eyes or whatever. Seemed like a cheap trick to avoid telegraphing the reveal to me, especially since I didn't think there was a need to avoid telegraphing the reveal for the aforementioned reasons.

But Bucky's been comfy as Cap to me since like the second arc, so I don't have a problem with the timing.

Kitsune

07-02-2009, 12:06 PM

I totally agree, but as far as I know the idea hasn't been used in mainstream media, or really indy medium, for quite sometime, and I can see where people are seeing the comparison. I haven't read the issue yet but it does sound very similar to what was going on this season of Lost.

Though you're right, it's not really a hugely original idea to begin with, and if Bru really had this planned from the get go of Cap's death it was probably just one of those odd times of writers having a similar idea around the same time.

So like Swap Thing/Man Thing? or Doom Patrol/X-Men?

And just so you know "Wanna see my Giant Sized Man-Thing" is not a good pick up line.

BrianWilly

07-02-2009, 01:27 PM

I think it's the whole "Ha ha gotcha, not a real gun!" thing that just made it lame for me. Look man, he was originally shot in the stomach with a gun. It doesn't get any more mundane (but no less dramatic) than that, and Brubaker intentionally portrayed it to be as mundane as possible in the story and in interviews.

And it's not even that it's a different type of gun than what we expected, but that it's specifically some sort of time-warp gun now. Y'know, the type of time-warping that leaves someone bleeding all over the floor and then autopsied by dozens of top scientists and eventually buried in the ocean while his spirit wanders the astral plane.

AlteredEgo

07-02-2009, 02:59 PM

Spade

07-02-2009, 03:04 PM

For me, it's the "time bullets" business. I get your point, Corp, that these are comics and resurrections are always going to feel a little stilted. But Brubaker didn't suspend my disbelief in CA#600 by showing that it was "no ordinary gun" that killed Steve and it doesn't seem to be getting better as Captain America: Reborn #1 hits the stands.

I will, however, agree that I can't see why people thought this was so bad. The art from Bryan Hitch is okay, though I've always got the impression that he recycles the same few stoic faces in his art, and Ed Brubaker does a good job (as far as resurrection stories go) of allowing the characters and not the gimmick to take center stage. Besides my own issues, I wouldn't have a problem recommending this issue to a friend as a good read.

Spider-ManHero12

07-02-2009, 03:31 PM

Reborn # 1 was awesome! Can't wait for issue 2. :up:

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 03:41 PM

I do hope we get a good Bucky vs Ares fight.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 03:50 PM

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 03:55 PM

I will miss Bucky when he goes off to limbo land.

On Ares:

There was a bit in Uncanny X-Men where Scott looks at Ares and goes, "Someday we'll have to figure out a way to take down that monster"

Dudes, it isn't that difficult, just send Hercules at him and call it a day.

TheCorpulent1

07-02-2009, 03:59 PM

Haha, I know. Ares ain't s***, really. Colossus could probably put up a good fight against Ares, and the X-Men just became buds with Ikaris, who could probably give Ares a good fight as well.

RockSP

07-02-2009, 04:52 PM

I will miss Bucky when he goes off to limbo land.

Kinda silly to think the guy who bothered to resurrect him in the first place will just throw him away once Steve's back.

In an unrelated note, this really didn't need to happen in a seperate mini...

Tron Bonne

07-02-2009, 05:22 PM

I ask again: what would be an acceptable, non-sci fi, non-mystical way to bring a man back from the dead after going to all the trouble of showing us that he was really, truly dead in several ways?

Well, I don't know, but what I was expecting to happen would be that the fake 50s Cap would actually be the real Cap, and the one who was shot was really the fake 50s Cap. I was figuring that somehow, someway Red Skull had brainwashed 50s Cap. in thinking he was the real deal and did the whole switch-a-roo between the time Cap was caught at the end of CW and when he was shot in Captain America.

I don't know if that's less stupid or whatever, but that's what I was expecting almost from the point that fake 50s Cap. was introduced.

Dread

07-02-2009, 05:25 PM

Repost of my long overdue rant about the first REBORN issue, with major spoilers. Read at your own peril.

CAPTAIN AMERICA REBORN #1: Sold in Universe-1235 as "Beating a Dead Horse, then Denying It Was Ever Dead" #1 of Five. Ah yes, the big book of the week, at least besides WAR OF KINGS #5. While it is $4, this issue at least is worth the price; 30 issues of story instead of 22. Bryan Hitch has been yanked from FANTASTIC FOUR because Marvel apparently figured they wanted him drawing a book that actually is relevant, and they have a point there. The Alex Ross cover is pretty sweet. Continuing from the much ballyhooed CAPTAIN AMERICA #600, this issue starts the obligatory saga of reviving Steve Rogers after about 2.5 years of rest. Which, while longer than DC kept Superman dead, still seems too soon for many of us.

Brubaker actually makes an attempt to make this book readable for people who haven't been reading CAPTAIN AMERICA for the last few years, without boring those readers who have; a useful skill, that. It starts with a recap of Rogers' life and times, from his endless WWII flashbacks to being shot just at the end of the Civil War "last year" and seemingly being killed by agents of the Red Skull. Hitch gives Cap a slight Ultimate redesign in 1944 with the helmet part, and while some say 616 Cap did wear other outfits occasionally, I still liked the idea of his original costume back then; he didn't NEED a helmet to survive gunfights with Nazi's. Just his shield and grit. However, like all things in comics, apparently his death wasn't a sure thing; Sharon Carter has "remembered" details out of the blue that indicate that Steve can still be saved, so Barnes and his allies are off to deprive Death of another victim. These leads him and Widow to analyze the weird gun that Sharon supposedly shot Steve with alongside Hank Pym and Vision Jr. of the Mighty Avengers, and get some aid from Nick Fury in raiding HAMMER's facility, looking for Arnim Zola's gear to piece stuff together. Unfortunately, they don't find Zola's trinkets, but do fight a fight against Ares and Venom of the Dark Avengers.

Hitch usually struggles with traditional costumes, preferring his leather/zipper/rivet affairs, but I thought he handled all the designs pretty well here. Granted, Butch Guice is helping on art, which may help account for that as he's been working on CA a while. I especially liked how despite the title, Brubaker was really bringing in other Avengers who would legitmately want to help revive Steve if they could, such as of course Widow and Falcon, but also Hank Pym. My only quibble is that he writes Vision as acting nothing like the newer younger version and methinks confuses him for the standard Vision. They may look the same if you squint, but they don't act exactly the same. But this probably is a minor nitpick considering the revelation inside. Considering how Dan Slott has written Hank Pym for 6 issues of MIGHTY AVENGERS (not counting Requiem or his last issue of AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE co-written by Christos Gage), it actually was a little refreshing and odd to just see Hank act like a competant, stable genuis hero. Slott, at best, writes Hank as a professional, occasionally dysfunctional eccentric. Sometimes that works (and can be hilarious) and sometimes it goes too far, like many schticks. There is something to Brubaker's brief portrayal here, Pym as a professional. It touches being "generic" if it was done for too long, but for the bit in this issue it's fine, and actually refreshing. Guess Pym can analyze something or talk with other heroes without acting arrogant or losing his temper now and then.

That, and it was both weird and awesome seeing Pym in his "Wasp" suit in house slippers analyzing Dr. Doom technology. Hitch isn't the best with that "He-Wasp" outfit, but it works well enough.

The revelation is that Steve Rogers, surprise, isn't really dead, but his psyche or soul or spirit or whatever has been sent into the time-stream, jumping back and forth across various points of his life, with his body also lost in time. Red Skull apparently needed Carter as well as Zola's suped up Doom-made machine, but since Sharon botched the experiment, Steve is still lose in time. This of course opens a whole host of problems. What about his body? The one that was dead on TV, that Brubaker literally had AUTOPSIED, that has been buried, and that Thor was able to contact on the astral plane? And how would plucking Rogers from time actually work? If they take a version of him from the past, won't that mess up time, like Kang trying to have Iron Lad as an apprentice? Would his body somehow "regenerate" if they get his "spirit" back into it, or does he need a new cloned body or something? To be fair, Brubaker did drop hints of SOMETHING going on with Rogers' body and Skull & Zola's experiments a year or so back in CAPTAIN AMERICA, so it isn't quite as bad as Bendis trying to convince everyone that he'd planned Secret Invasion subplot for 4-5 years. It isn't quite that heavy handed. That said, he made the death so convincing with the blood and shooting and autopsy that now it rings a little hollow, an "oh, of COURSE now Sharon remembered ****" eye roll reaction. It still is heavy handed. I mean...come on, there was an AUTOPSY. Now the body was fake? Of course it was. And Brubaker sets this up with the first line of the story, "Captain America's life was full of myths and lies because it's a legend, blah blah", which is code for, "I am about to lay down some grade A baloney, so open wide." Cap's death worked because it was so realistic and yet so orchastrated, yet mundane. It was captured on the chaos of TV news, akin to many a political assassination. Before Obama-Spidey, that issue alone sold over 350,000 copies across a few printings, and was universally positively reviewed to boot. Now? Meaningless. It took 20 years for that ASM "Death of Gwen Stacy" issue to become a bad joke, a punchline, due to resurrections and rehashes, and only two years for more modern classic issues.

It's only issue one, but to be fair, a more believable way of getting Steve Rogers back would have been Barnes leading a team into the Underworld to literally yank him back like Hercules is trying to do with Zeus now in INCREDIBLE HERCULES. Time Travel is a tricky wicket and even when it works you always have some sort of paradox or logical loophole to ignore.

I've written very long posts about this topic before. I think no one at Marvel, not the editors nor Brubaker, realized quite what they had in Barnes. Realized they had energized the franchise in a way that would work for a DECADE or two and that they will NEVER, EVER have such an opportunity to do so again. Unfortunately, the idea of slow and steady growth is lost in the current event cycle of comics. All Marvel and company know is hyping for movies that never bring in fans, or event crossovers that never sustain high sales for long. The notion of a comic book selling well, better than in years, simply because it is GOOD, simply because of FOWARD PROGRESS and REAL CHANGE that was EFFECTIVE and UNIVERSALLY CHERISHED is alien to Marvel or comics in general; such things are Latin, a dead language, in the era of shameless cash in events, car salesman style editorial interviews, and the cynical fleecing of costumers at every single turn. Frankly all fans of mainstream comics should be horrified that now, it is official that "good" is not enough to keep a book the way it is, even if it sells well (a rarity). Rather than allowing Barnes to organically run his story course and destiny in the mantle, they're going for the sloppy cash in sooner rather than later. Like this would have sold any worse in another 2-10 years. Go ahead, convince your audience that no change matters while encouraging them that this time, THIS TIME it REALLY matters, NOTHING WILL BE THE SAME, or whatever baloney sells a solicit says.

Brubaker to be honest has done an okay job of executing this first issue. I like how he's added an ensemble cast and is capable of writing characters like Pym or Fury well with only a few pages. I like his mixing of a little espionage with superhero stuff. And at least he seems to be trying to tell something about Steve by having his "soul" blip across time. On the one hand, blips to WWII are useless; EVERY SINGLE INSTANT of Rogers' tenure in WWII has been chronicled, retconned, reprinted, and retold. There is no need to now retcon more stuff because that just encourages the next man to retcon it. Where does it end? But then you have moments where Steve watches his mother die as a kid. Steve's life before WWII hasn't been as well chronicled. That doesn't mean it is a mystery. We know he was a poor kid in Brooklyn. His mother died and his father was an alcoholic. He was artistic and moral. Really, is there anything more to need to know? I never was a fan of telling stories about characters before they became interesting, or feeling the need to apologize or muck with "mundane" parts of an origin. Like writers who feel the need to mess with Colossus' simple past on a farm. It works. Not everyone has to be an eventful cluster**** of battle from the day they were conceived like Wolverine (I DEFY anyone to read Wolverine's new biography in the WEAPON X FILES handbook and tell me it isn't a ****ing mess because of all the needless digging, retcons, and "explanations" atop each other). What does blipping to the 1930's have to do with how to revive Steve without messing up his own timeline to Immortus levels?

I get the feeling that Brubaker wants to make this about characters, and wants to execute this well. Overall, I couldn't help but enjoy the issue despite reservations. That said, there is a difference in his work between stuff that is a heart on his sleeve, and stuff where editorial is nudging at him. REBORN is an editorial nudge to say the least. I don't think it will be as bad as DEADLY GENESIS, if only because he hasn't needlessly sacrificed a C-Lister yet, but it may not reach the heights of his more potent works. How can it? It's basically Barnes and Widow stealing Zola's DELORIAN to save Steve back to the future. Some argue, "all resurrections are stupid". Then, maybe they have become relied upon too much. Maybe that is a well that is too dry. Maybe it has become cliche shorthand for drama and illusionary change. Maybe characters should be allowed to grow, change, die and even be replaced, so long as it works (which it did fo Cap; over 40% higher sales than when Steve was dead, two years later without the aid of crossovers). "Go along with it" is an excuse for people who have already settled their mind on what they think the work will be, or are so jaded by DC that they are hardly surprised that Marvel also knows how to stifle creative ideas with ham fisted cash in's or fear of real, fundamental change (especially with, gasp, a movie coming).

Brubaker at least left more unused subplots in his older CA stories that he almost gets away with convincing me this was planned all along. Almost. He still failes overall, but while Bendis' "I really planned Secret Invasion and Spider Woman to be Veranke since 2005" bull was a shot that completely missed the dart board, Brubaker's "no, really, I planned this since issue #25" at least hits past the corners, a respectable shot. SOMETHING was planned. Just he left it vague enough so it could change at a moment's notice; I write and I know the practice. I run a message board RPG or two and know exactly how to do that, to have a general idea but leave things loose that I can literally make up something 5 minutes ago and play off like it was all planned since I was born. For professional writers to deny to our faces such a practice is garbage. I'm not a professional and I know how to do stuff like that.

Most resurrections get around the awkward details of explaining how someone can come back from the dead by denying the death actually happened. Norman Osborn magically gained a healing factor and "recovered in Europe". Dr. Doom just swapped bodies or it was a Doombot or whatever. You THOUGHT Wolverine impaled Magneto, ha ha, it just crippled him for a while, no one checks a pulse THAT well. No, that wasn't really Xavier, it was a shapeshifter who was handed psychic powers to pose as him because Xavier was busy in his attic preparing for aliens. No, that was Xorn pretending to be Magneto, pretending to be Xorn that Wolverine beheaded. All manner of hapless, worthless explanations. Even Superman in the iconic "death" event that triggered stories like Cap's didn't really die; he was just in a really bad Kryptonian coma. Even Brubaker himself brought back Bucky by denying he had ever died, and unlike THIS resurrection, that one made sense BECAUSE it was NEVER SHOWN ON PANEL, it was always up to Steve's memory (and Stan Lee's accepted retcon), which Brubaker showed was imperfect, as many memories are. REBORN is literally doing what Brubaker in the past specifically avoided when he did his "revive".

There are few resurrections that do claim someone outright died and came back, usually involving mythology or magic, which itself can simply be a Maguffin explanation. In some ways REBORN goes with a theory that is loosely similar to how Joss Whedon resurrected Colossus; that the body that was autopsied/buried/whatever was fake. Colossus was revived by a machine from Ord and the Breakworld, which if you really, REALLY think about it, it is complete bull that the Breakworld would literally have a resurrection machine. Under Kruun, the very IDEA of a "hospital" or in any way tending to the sick or wounded was treated as an ultimate sin and punished by death. For such people to invent a Resurrection Machine, or even to get past the bloody stone age, was always buffalo feces on a stick. Brubaker is trying to do what all retcons try to do; convince you that what you read and saw was false. Those weren't real bullets, that wasn't real blood, somehow Sharon Carter was mind-wiping hundreds in the croud and a WORLDWIDE TV AUDIENCE, yeah, uh, Red Skull and Zola are just THAT good at video editing. They even hacked into narration boxes to pull it off. That's crap no matter what angle you look at it. Even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle couldn't find a logical way to resurrect Sherlock Holmes after he seemingly killed him off; ironically, Doyle by then hated Holmes but the character was so popular that he couldn't be allowed to stop writing him; the first fictional case of a character existing beyond natural length. If it didn't work in the 19th or early 20th century, why the hell does anyone expect that tactic to be narratively literate NOW?

At this point I like everything about REBORN but the actual rebirth part. Barnes works well with Widow, and I liked his reaction to facing heavy hitters like Ares, something you can't do with Steve since he has battled every single menace in creation. Which is PRECISELY why resurrecting him and ditching Barnes is the stupidest long term strategy the franchise could have. Where does that leave Barnes? Nowhere. His natural role in the story Brubaker began 50 issues ago led to Barnes in the mask now. There's no place without him in that role, and by reviving Steve, even if he puts Rogers out to pasture or "retirement" or keeps Barnes the star of CAPTAIN AMERICA, that merely means that Steve will be back and Barnes in limbo the NANOSECOND Brubaker leaves CA, which is inevitable. I like the inclusion of a full cast of characters from Falcon and Carter to some Avengers and Nick Fury. Ideally this would be an arc of CAPTAIN AMERICA, but this will get it more profile and perhaps allow Brubaker more leeway to use said side characters who would realistically want to revive Steve if they could. Where it loses some luster is in the resurrection explanation itself, the whopper one has to swallow, and the confusing angles to explaining it. "He's dead and he wasn't", Zola? That's trash. You either are or aren't. If your body is trapped in a time loop, you are not dead. You never died in the first place. Skull and Zola were able to pull off a MEPHISTO MARRIAGE ERASER move with a few brainwashed people and some camera edits? C'mon!

I've stated outright with DARK REIGN that a whale of a premise can be forgiven if the aftermath is executed well. Brubaker is trying, I can sense it. The next four issues probably won't be terrible. The immediate arc with Cap back, the first 6 months or so, will have a "hell yeah, return of the king" style mood. But what then? What in 2010 when it no longer is fresh that Rogers is back and the franchise is at square one after it's glimpse at 21st century greatness? Will Brubaker just coast? Will he call it a run and leave it to the NEXT beat writer (which, to be fair, would be his right; 5-6 years is a solid run by any era) to have to deal with, much as Bendis left DAREDEVIL to Brubaker after exhausting every corner and box he had? And I am tired, so god damned mother ****ing tired, of big two comic books thinking so god damned small, of not knowing real, genuine, slow and steady quality and always reaching for all they know how, the crossover steroid event that is shallow and meaningless in under a Presidential term's time. Stunts like this are what chase embittered fans to indie's and snobbery. I don't doubt Brubaker's execution. I am saying that even with the best story execution of all fictional history, the story ends in a corner, in a been there, done that, move on hole. And the shame of it was it was a hole Brubaker himself and Marvel itself had covered up and driven past.

Did Marvel really have to compete with REBIRTH or BLACKEST NIGHT? DC is a dying company. It's Number Two. It has been Number Two for as long as I have been alive in sales and it will always be Number Two, because being Number Two is all it knows. It is backward thinking and outselling it for Marvel is almost like outselling nothing at all, like beating a video game boss for the 4,000th time with the same pattern. Was a movie really worth gutting a great revision for? Movies have NEVER, EVER EVER EVER EVER EV-VARR, produced so much as ONE solitary new fan who stayed beyond six months. Why is it worth crippling a great new status quo for a fleeting jump? I wouldn't care so much if the Barnes stuff wasn't good, or didn't offer so much promise across the board, or had been mishandled, but it hadn't! Marvel puts out so many garbage stories that they refuse to back off on, like undoing the Parker marriage, shoe-horning the Storm/Panther marriage, mutilating Wolverine's origins, and M-Day so gutting the X-Men as a premise that NO WRITER SINCE has made it work without ignoring the problem (beyond Peter David on X-FACTOR, which is a C-List book sales and editorial wise). Why not bend over backwards to undo THOSE heaping piles of gorilla fecal matter!? No, they do contortions to undo the best damn change any of their comics have had for something as simple, shallow, and fleeting as a movie and a cash in. It's the kind of thing that no matter how well Brubaker writes some scenes, makes me want to pull out my own hair and go read CONCRETE or something.

At the very least, for this sort of obligatory thing, it's better than many so far. The issue has a lot of great moments. It wins a few battles, for an unneeded war.

Upset Spideyfan

07-02-2009, 06:25 PM

Kinda silly to think the guy who bothered to resurrect him in the first place will just throw him away once Steve's back.

Brubaker won't be writing Cap forever, his run has already been pretty long by today's standards.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 07:23 PM

Maybe not forever, but I don't see Bru leaving anytime soon.

KangConquers

07-02-2009, 09:13 PM

Maybe not forever, but I don't see Bru leaving anytime soon.

Brubaker for 50 more issues would be nice.

Dread

07-02-2009, 09:22 PM

I am curious when Brubaker is leaving. If he stays for another year, it will be about a 5 year run, long by any standards. JMS' run on ASM was about 7-8 years. Bendis' run on USM lurches onward at 9 years and counting. It would be a little irritating for him to stay on just long enough to milk the last gasp of energy the franchise has and then dumping it in the lap of someone else when the steam is done, like Bendis in a way did with DAREDEVIL to Bru himself -- write into a corner, then dump. Enjoy, fella! Sink or swim! No other writer would bother doing anything with Barnes, especially with him no longer Captain America.

As I have stated in the B/T, the initial "omigod, Steve is back!" buzz will drive stories for a year, tops. Then after that everything's empty, exactly where it was when Brubaker started his long haul story to replace Cap. Sales on CA will dwindle back to 37k a month like they were before CIVIL WAR started driving Brubaker's sales. Barnes will become at best a supporting character again in a book he was selling over 60k an issue as the star. Marvel will then wonder what they did wrong.

Movies never bring in readers long term. It's so backward and small thinking stifling good growth to that end.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 09:52 PM

As I have stated in the B/T, the initial "omigod, Steve is back!" buzz will drive stories for a year, tops. Then after that everything's empty, exactly where it was when Brubaker started his long haul story to replace Cap. Sales on CA will dwindle back to 37k a month like they were before CIVIL WAR started driving Brubaker's sales. Barnes will become at best a supporting character again in a book he was selling over 60k an issue as the star. Marvel will then wonder what they did wrong.

Movies never bring in readers long term. It's so backward and small thinking stifling good growth to that end.

Wait, so you think sales went up just because Bucky was Cap? That's ridiculous beyond belief.

Dread

07-02-2009, 10:03 PM

Wait, so you think sales went up just because Bucky was Cap? That's ridiculous beyond belief.

Sales went up for CIVIL WAR. They spiked to some 350k for the Death issue. They could have immediately sunk back to pre-CW levels afterward. I mean, Spider-Man sold over a half million Obama cover issues yet sales immediately afterward went back to normal levels from before, about 56-62k an issue. CA could have dipped to, say, 40k or about where it was before when Brubaker started. Instead interest remained high, and in May was still selling over 60k. The change in status quo, the belief that this change wasn't illusionary, the added editorial push, and the quality of the book all combined for a perfect storm. Sales still slipped, but still remain higher than pre-CW levels by at least 35%. Few books can claim to be up over 5% or even 20% across some three years. It does happen.

Now? All the extra readers who stuck around the last two years will learn that Marvel was just fooling. The added event push will spike sales short term, but just as 2011 is looming, the well will be dry. Steve's a dead end character. There's nothing to do with him. Not one damn thing. He's battled every threat, been to every time. There is nothing he hasn't overcome. Every single worthwhile crevice of his origin or past or history has been explained and overexplained and explained further. Unless you just want massive retcons. Is the world crying out for tales of 30's Steve being bullied in school and drawing star spangled crayon pictures? While a character who never wavers, has no flaw, no agenda, nothing to prove and can never be overwhelmed, caught off guard or otherwise face something he hasn't beaten can be fun in some stories, it is...harder to get dramatic weight out of it than someone new in said mantle, looking to live up to an ideal. Especially if said new person is accepted by the audience. This wasn't a John Walker or Jean Paul Valley deal. The fact that no one gave a damn about Cap before he died usually speaks volumes about certain limits to the formula. I mean Cap had to quit or be fired in the 70's and 80's to get attention, or almost die/be fired/go rogue in the 90's. Superman, Batman, any character over 40 years old has that problem. Few fictional mediums intend to last indefinitely.

Big two comics have long suffered from an utter lack of any imaginative ideas or creative cajones. Barnes at the very least was a brilliant shift of cans; allowing writers to tell old Cap stories, like "Cap vs. _____" Or "Old WWII story returns to present" or whatnot, only it is a new Cap with similar but different memories, so it isn't retreading old ground. It worked on every creative level. I personally think no one at Marvel really appreciated how well it worked.

It's like apes finding a gold nugget. They have no idea of the value of what they have. So can only use it like a rock, cracking open nuts until they grow bored with it, or find a better rock for that purpose.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 10:05 PM

Yeah, I'm not even going to touch this any further because I will say something I might regret. Man, you talking all this **** is making me wish for the days when you didn't read Captain America.

Dread

07-02-2009, 10:09 PM

Yeah, I'm not even going to touch this any further because I will say something I might regret. Man, you talking all this **** is making me wish for the days when you didn't read Captain America.

It can suck to be passionate about something. Maybe that was my mistake. I fell too hard to the last half of Brubaker's run, I guess. I forgot the fleeting nature of Big Two comics.

I just am not usually interested in indie's where things actually do change and stick and run to logical conclusions without corporate fear. So I'm stuck. :p

I normally love Brubaker's CA stuff, I hate talking badly about it. But I dreaded this return in trends, and damned if it hasn't come.

Darthphere

07-02-2009, 10:21 PM

Is this the part where I say that you knew he was coming back so you shouldn't be this worked up?

Spider-ManHero12

07-02-2009, 10:22 PM

That was a great moment where suddenly Ares is standing there and Bucky's just like, "Oh crap." I'll miss that everyman aspect to Cap, since Steve is the consummate professional and would probably dance circles around Ares. Both are appealing, just in different ways. Agreed, and they both kick ass as Cap. Bucky is sort of the "Dirty Harry" type of Cap (has a gun and a knife) where Steve is the super hero beat 'em up/all american (or whatever) type of Cap. As you said, both are great in different ways.

Dread

07-02-2009, 10:31 PM

Is this the part where I say that you knew he was coming back so you shouldn't be this worked up?

If you knew something you didn't agree with or thought was a step back was inevitable, but you had no clear idea when it would happen exactly, would it still not hit you in the gut?

Anubis

07-02-2009, 10:59 PM

It would hit you in the gut, but if you didn't suck in and brace for the hit, then it's your own fault you ruptured your spleen. :o

Dread

07-02-2009, 11:12 PM

Bracing for a hit is still a hit. I can be braced all I want for a Tyson gut shot, but that doesn't mean it would evaporate off me.

kguillou

07-03-2009, 02:04 AM

But wait a minute guys, in Dread's defense, wasn't the whole point of reintroducing Bucky and making him Captain America to make us grow attached to him? You guys are acting like its our fault for getting too attached to the character. If we're not supposed to get attached to the character in the first place then what is the whole point? Brubaker was trying an experiment. He made Bucky Captain America, if people didnt like it, then im sure he would've brought steve back alot sooner. However many many people fell in love with the character and loved him as Cap. SO, wouldnt it be the logical thing to do to keep him around as Cap for a while since people are enjoying it?

BTW, people keep saying that we should've expected this yet Brubaker and Quesada himself explicitly stated on a number of occasions after Steve's death that "Steve is 100% dead and is not coming back.". I dont see how people were able to read between the lines there. lol

Darthphere

07-03-2009, 08:40 AM

Spider-ManHero12

07-03-2009, 11:22 AM

BTW, people keep saying that we should've expected this yet Brubaker and Quesada himself explicitly stated on a number of occasions after Steve's death that "Steve is 100% dead and is not coming back.". I dont see how people were able to read between the lines there. lol Well, you have to think for a minute, Cap (Rogers) was such an iconic symbol, so was it truly possible that Rogers wasn't going to stay dead forever? Still though, who says an iconic symbol can't stay dead?

Tarnish

07-03-2009, 11:39 AM

Um no. Not at all.

Wait, you mean the same Joey Q who always says "dead is dead"?

Hell, if Joe Q said that the sky was blue...I'd double check.

BrianWilly

07-03-2009, 01:08 PM

I don't think Bucky getting shafted bothers me nearly as much as how lame the story is starting off. I never expected Bucky to stay as Cap forever, and I think he does have staying power regardless. It's Bucky for pete's sakes.

But then again, I did at least expect him to last longer in the suit than a single year. That genuinely is pretty hilariously bsad. Bsad means a combination of bad and sad. And now you know.

'Phere is absolutely right about one thing, though: Quesada doesn't care. And I mean he literally doesn't care how he comes across or what people think as long as it gets buzz going. He'll say whatever he wants about deaths, about unmaskings, about octopi, anything he wants in order to sound dramatic and savvy in the moment. And then when people (including myself) are shocked a year/month/week later when he does the exact opposite thing, he's not going to give any tiny amount s**t at all. You think he cares even a little about the propriety of the story or the affection that characters have garnered? Where've you been for the past nine years?

Hell, this thing happening right now, with people arguing back and forth about Bucky and Steve "They're being hypocrites" "No they're not"? It's exactly what he wants. He loves it. What better way to generate his type of buzz? What better way to ignite attention than to drag Bucky off center stage just as he's getting into the groove, joined the New Avengers, shagging the hot Russian, etc? You think he's being disrespectful to the story, he's laughing all the way to the bank filled with the money that we're all still giving him.

WompuM

07-03-2009, 01:45 PM

I don't think Bucky getting shafted bothers me nearly as much as how lame the story is starting off. I never expected Bucky to stay as Cap forever, and I think he does have staying power regardless. It's Bucky for pete's sakes.

Yeah, I agree BeeDubya. If Steve were to come back through other means, like I don't know, healing factor side effect of super serum and have him burst out of a coffin. Maybe not as aggravating.

Paradox1

07-03-2009, 02:33 PM

yeah the way Reborn is starting off I'm not so impressed but I like that Steve is coming back hopefully they can pick it up somehow and not some retread ending like there having to some kind sacrifice for him to come back.

kguillou

07-03-2009, 02:45 PM

How much you guys wanna bet Tony Stark "dies" by the time of Ironman II next year?

Darthphere

07-03-2009, 05:27 PM

I don't think the beginning of Reborn is lame because frankly, they didn't give us enough Steve to be lame, just irrelevant. We know he's jumping through time or whatever, but until we actually see what's going on, the story will pick up. It's a first issue, they're supposed to grab our attention. To me, it did that at least.

Dread

07-03-2009, 06:23 PM

I know Joe Q doesn't care about anything but hype, his own pockets, and inciting/fleecing fans.

That's another rant.

I am glad at least a few people relate to my experience. It's lost in some of my rants but I don't actually think CAPTAIN AMERICA REBORN #1 is bad. I recall typing at one point, "I like everything about it but the rebirth", and that stands. Hitch & Guice's art is good. Brubaker's pacing for action is superb. Barnes is fine, and so is Widow, Carter, Falcon, and Pym. Vision Jr. acted a bit unlike the teen version, but that's minor. If given a snowball's chance in hell of saving Steve Rogers, they'd all take it. That's not my problem. My problem is the elephant in the room bit, the "inevitable" revival, what it says about a heretofore excellent and innovative (a rarity in comics) storyline and comics as a whole. I understand the dilemma and the "Rogers would never stay dead, look at Superman/Barry Allen/Hal Jordon/Jesus Christ", but I don't have to completely enjoy it. I don't have to enjoy the endless cycle of pointing a franchise into a corner, decade after decade, and undoing the few glimpses of avoiding that trap that only come once a generation because there's a buck to be had quicker, a movie to be made, or old men in a room to be pleased.

Tarnish

07-03-2009, 11:34 PM

... or old men in a room to be pleased.

That's totally unfair

I'm middle aged at most ;)

Dread

07-04-2009, 02:00 AM

That's totally unfair

I'm middle aged at most ;)

I meant editorial staff. :word:

Gamma Goliath

07-04-2009, 03:11 AM

roach

07-04-2009, 07:25 AM

special time bullets?????wow

Anubis

07-04-2009, 07:53 AM

Sounds like a sex toy.

Upset Spideyfan

07-04-2009, 02:11 PM

i don't think bucky getting shafted bothers me nearly as much as how lame the story is starting off. I never expected bucky to stay as cap forever, and i think he does have staying power regardless. It's bucky for pete's sakes.

But then again, i did at least expect him to last longer in the suit than a single year. That genuinely is pretty hilariously bsad. Bsad means a combination of bad and sad. And now you know.

'phere is absolutely right about one thing, though: Quesada doesn't care. And i mean he literally doesn't care how he comes across or what people think as long as it gets buzz going. He'll say whatever he wants about deaths, about unmaskings, about octopi, anything he wants in order to sound dramatic and savvy in the moment. And then when people (including myself) are shocked a year/month/week later when he does the exact opposite thing, he's not going to give any tiny amount s**t at all. You think he cares even a little about the propriety of the story or the affection that characters have garnered? Where've you been for the past nine years?

Hell, this thing happening right now, with people arguing back and forth about bucky and steve "they're being hypocrites" "no they're not"? It's exactly what he wants. He loves it. What better way to generate his type of buzz? What better way to ignite attention than to drag bucky off center stage just as he's getting into the groove, joined the new avengers, shagging the hot russian, etc? You think he's being disrespectful to the story, he's laughing all the way to the bank filled with the money that we're all still giving him.

hey!

That guy is right!

Dread

07-04-2009, 03:30 PM

I don't wanna sound like a total idiot, but I'm uber confused. Cap is frozen in time, and that's how he's still alive. He was shot by "special bullets" that perseve him in time ? Where is he ? And is he really awake and healthy ?
Seems to me, this guy just can't stay thawed out, first he's literally frozen in ice and is awakend in the present. Now he's theoretically frozen in time and space and must be found.

Everything hasn't been exactly revealed yet. It is only REBORN #1 of 5. However, so far the gist is that Carter didn't shoot Cap with "real" bullets in the torso. It was some kind of suped up "time gun" based on Dr. Doom technology. Zola claimed to Osborn that Rogers' body was stuck "in between time and space" which is somehow akin to being both alive and dead. Steve's psyche at least seems to be reliving his entire history, from childhood to wartime era stuff.

As much as Brubaker wanted to avoid using it a second time in his run, the Cosmic Cube, Cap's most reliable Maguffin, might have been simpler and more honest.

TheCorpulent1

07-05-2009, 12:32 PM

Paradox1

07-05-2009, 02:08 PM

In a way Steve is doing the Quantum Leap thing where he's jumping through time , within his own lifetime.

TheCorpulent1

07-05-2009, 02:11 PM

Yep, Quantum Leap, Slaughterhouse V, Lost, etc. The idea's been done a lot before, but it opens up an interesting way to look at Steve's life through his own eyes, which should presumably be free of the rose-colored lenses everyone else looks back on his life with. We've already seen him relive the death of his mother, for starters.

roach

07-05-2009, 07:08 PM

Theorizing that one could time travel within his own lifetime, Steve Rogers led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Steve Rogers prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished.
He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own time was maintained through brain-wave transmissions with Nick Fury, the project observer, who appears in the form of a hologram, that only Steve Rogers can see and hear. Trapped in the past, Steve Rogers finds himself leaping from life to life, putting things right that once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home.

Fury:"Bucky is 98% sure that you have to get Peter and MJ back together."
Steve:"Oh boy."

Dread

07-06-2009, 01:15 AM

Not reliving so much as jumping. Steve's just flashing to random events in his life (which I imagine will result in some kind of catharsis before he's back in the present, all safe and sound).

And again, tachyon bullets aren't really a big thing for me. It's a sci fi universe and we all knew it.

It wouldn't be a big deal to me if the death sequence in CA #25 wasn't taken as seriously, or as gritty. I mean Steve is hit by a sniper (taking a bullet for his police escort), shot to death on the steps of a court-house. By his own brain washed baby-mama. Blood, real bullets, media frenzy, all taken seriously, arm-bands, autopsies, burials, and so forth. If Brubaker did really intend to bring back Steve in exactly this way, then he hasn't set up the crumbs properly. He was so eager to set up the death to be taken so seriously, as so real, with such real reactions whatnot, that now it really does seem like back-tracking no matter how well he tries to execute it well, or try to make it personal.

It's akin to...Iron Patriot killing Spider-Man outright. Like, tearing his head clean off in broad daylight on national TV and then stomping holes into his decapitated torso immediately afterward. There is a media frenzy. Peter Parker is autopsied, buried, there are armbands and funerals and all his New Avengers getting somber and serious about avenging him. I mean, Spidey's teamed up with every superhero Marvel has at least twice, right? But then two years later we hear that Osborn was just being cunning. His gauntlets have a time machine in them, and Parker is now stuck across time. He's reliving moments of his life, including moments we never saw, such as, GASP, the first day poor little Parker leans his parents are dead from Ben and May. Does anyone care? At this point hardly anyone would accept the vehicle as working well with the death scene. It will seem out of nowhere.

(Sadly, such a theoretical story would be no less ridiculous than many of the official stories Spider-Man has been a part of for the last 15 years.)

If Brubaker really had to try to pull things out of air like this, he really would have been better off using the Cosmic Cube. I mean, Skull and the boys might have still had "slivers" of it, right? I could see Brubaker deliberately trying to avoid the Cube simply due to how overused it is, and how he relied on it for Bucky, but I don't think turning a normal gun into a Time Gun and Red Skull into Mephisto is really as cohesive.

Yep, Quantum Leap, Slaughterhouse V, Lost, etc. The idea's been done a lot before, but it opens up an interesting way to look at Steve's life through his own eyes, which should presumably be free of the rose-colored lenses everyone else looks back on his life with. We've already seen him relive the death of his mother, for starters.

But does anyone really need to see that, or cares to? I have always had a problem with stories that take place, literally, before a character was interesting. An easy example is Colossus. Before the X-Men, he was a farm boy at a Russian commune type area. Mundane. It works for him, because his charm was being a naive optimistic outsider for many years. But once writers are left with little to do with him, they delve backwards. So now we have recent stories with the Russian Mob or trying to make Colossus' backstory more adventurous...like Wolverine's mess of a history. It doesn't work, and I couldn't be less interested.

We know enough about Steve's history that I don't think we really need an endless swim of flashbacks. He grew up poor in Brooklyn. He liked art. His father was an alcoholic. His mom died. He was so eager to be a patriot that he tried out for a military experiment that could have very well killed him instead of empowering him. Hell, a Nazi spy nearly killed him on the lab table. I'm not so much of a completist that I feel the need to know every angle of a character's life. I don't need to see baby Steve spell U.S.A. with spelling blocks. I don't need to see him menaced by grade school bullies with a skull motif. We've had Steve explain or narrate about his past many, many, many times in past Avengers/Cap solo stories. There's little new to add besides mundane details. We already knew his mother meant a lot to him; Zemo tore Rogers' only remaining photo of her in half during the UNDER SIEGE Avengers story and it was the only thing that got Cap to break down. While I suppose a flashback helps those who didn't know that bit already, it adds little to those to do.

And World War II flashbacks....they're a dime a dozen for Cap. You could almost detail his entire wartime career with them if you got them all lined up. Steve's already looked at his life with his eyes; they're called flashbacks where he gives the narration, which have been common.

I figure Brubaker is using the bit to narrow down context, to cement and refresh who Steve is as a character and where he came from, how he went, and why he should come back. To try to had some emotional beats to an event. Or, well, he just likes flashbacks. They're all over his prior Cap issues, and his collaboration with IMMORTAL IRON FIST (although Iron Fist had many legit gaps from the 70's that needed filling; it was a perfect storm of retcons for a franchise that actually needed a few, and it worked). And that is the problem of doing "new revelations" with a character who has been in circulation for some 70 years; any "new revelation" you do, even one that may be brilliant, doesn't gel because you'd have expected it to show up sooner. With Bucky there was plenty of reason why Steve's memory would be fuzzy; it was literally the last adventure before he was frozen in ice for decades. It was a retcon with a fairly logical reason behind it. REBORN isn't as logical.

Saying, "Oh, it's comics, impossible **** happens" is a cop out. By that logic, Buck may as well teamed up with Thor and Hercules, stormed into the Underworld, and dragged Steve out. "C'mon, man, you're needed!" And honestly that could have worked, too. Or at least been more of a blunt romp.

TheCorpulent1

07-06-2009, 08:57 AM

Spider-ManHero12

07-06-2009, 09:31 AM

^^ I second that, lol. :up:

roach

07-06-2009, 09:33 AM

I try. anyway to be fair I finished up the Cap megabook that ended with 25. Issue 24 had the Skull contacting Zola with a plan to destroy Cap. You dont go to Zola for a regular hand gun so maybe this was all planned out

TheCorpulent1

07-06-2009, 09:56 AM

It clearly was. We knew about the time platform from way back in the issues just after Cap's death. I think the way Brubaker went about revealing that the gun wasn't a normal gun was executed a little awkwardly, but otherwise I don't mind the temporal shenanigans at all. Genres are made to be broken in a shared universe, as far as I'm concerned.

Darthphere

07-06-2009, 10:25 AM

Sometimes a gun is just a gun.

NightBeetle

07-06-2009, 11:02 AM

Captain America: Reborn #2 cover (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.8652.FIRST_LOOK%7Ecolon%7E_Captain_Am erica%7Ecolon%7E_Reborn_%232)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6685/8652newstoryimage689418.jpg

Darthphere

07-06-2009, 11:05 AM

Looks great, other than the fact he's rocking the Ultimate Cap costume.

Spider-ManHero12

07-06-2009, 11:49 AM

Great cover! Love seeing Cap kicking Hitler's ass. Brings a smile to my face. :up:

Paradox1

07-06-2009, 11:51 AM

I've noticed that as well seems the like Cap maybe also be in another universe too. Maybe him being stuck in time has distorted the timeline somehow where he looks like Ulitmate Cap before UC even had that suit.

yenaled

07-06-2009, 01:16 PM

I know it's all quasi-realistic or something. But I hate that stupid war-helmet.

Plus the changed gun was a cop-out felt like it was retcon of his own story.

kguillou

07-06-2009, 01:37 PM

I dont care what Brubaker, or Tom Brevoort or Quesada says, this was definitely put together at the last minute. Its blatently obvious.

TheCorpulent1

07-06-2009, 02:04 PM

I know it's all quasi-realistic or something. But I hate that stupid war-helmet.

Plus the changed gun was a cop-out felt like it was retcon of his own story.
I hate the war helmet as well. Hitch needs to stop retconning Cap's old-school look. The classic costume works just fine. :o

Kitsune

07-06-2009, 02:09 PM

Sometimes a gun is just a gun.

Give the man a cigar

Spider-ManHero12

07-06-2009, 02:13 PM

I hate the war helmet as well. Hitch needs to stop retconning Cap's old-school look. The classic costume works just fine. :o The classic costume does works just fine and it's my favorite, but the ultimate suit isn't bad either, if you ask me.

TheCorpulent1

07-06-2009, 02:18 PM

I'm not a fan of it, but more importantly, it has no place in Reborn. Reborn doesn't take place in the Ultimate universe, ergo there should be no Ultimate costumes or Ultimate touches to the old-school costume or anything.

kguillou

07-06-2009, 02:26 PM

But...Hitch didnt redesign anything. It only looks like Ultimate Cap because Hitch is drawing it. But Hitch hasnt changed Cap's design at all. He's had the war helmet before back in WW2.

TheCorpulent1

07-06-2009, 02:35 PM

From what I've seen, he had the helmet/detached face mask and the pointy shield before the US joined the war. By the time he was actually fighting overseas, he'd already switched to the familiar-looking full head mask and the round shield. I could be wrong, but that's how I always recall seeing it.

Spider-ManHero12

07-06-2009, 02:38 PM

^^ That's how I remember it as well.

Upset Spideyfan

07-06-2009, 02:57 PM

I do kind of like how they stenciled the wings on though.

joebleau

07-06-2009, 04:10 PM

cant wait to see what they will do with Bucky or the new Nomad

Spade

07-06-2009, 04:54 PM

I do kind of like how they stenciled the wings on though.

Me too.

I don't mind the "Ultimatization" of early Cap, but that could do with me becoming desensitized to many big name talent "changes" over the years to Marvel canon.

Dread

07-06-2009, 05:50 PM

I believe some bits of the storyline were planned. Maybe Brubaker was told to make the death comic more "organic" and real and now he's stuck with an old draft of a story for a resurrection that won't work as well. I mean it clearly wasn't a time gun. There was no opportunity to switch the bodies. Everyone saw it. It makes no bloody sense. But right now all one can hope for is that Brubaker executes a crappy resurrection well.

At best, it flows very awkwardly. Brubaker's trying to cover it up with execution, which at least is something.

BrianWilly

07-06-2009, 05:50 PM

I find Hitch overrated beyond belief.

Anubis

07-06-2009, 05:51 PM

I think he used to be good, and now, not so much.

kguillou

07-06-2009, 05:54 PM

I used to think Aunt May's "switcheroo" ressurection was the worst ressurection in comics, this might actually trump that. I hope Brubaker proves me wrong.

Anubis

07-06-2009, 05:56 PM

Dude, Aunt May was in a closet for three years. Time bullets will never be as lame.

Dread

07-06-2009, 06:02 PM

To be honest, "time bullets" probably work better than "genetically modified actress that fooled everyone and anyone for years, and whoops, Osborn has May in a bunker somewhere". If only slightly.

I do find Hitch overrated and I am not a fan of the helmet look to WWII. **** realism and **** Ultimates, man. Marvel's WWII had heroes overcoming Nazi zombies and robots. Why pinch "realism" strings over a costume? Considering that Hitch likely had little if any lead in time from FF to REBORN, I am curious if we will get more than a second issue before either delays or Guice has to draw the whole thing, which may be better off anyway.

kguillou

07-07-2009, 12:07 AM

Aw c'mon, you didnt enjoy Ultimates Dread? lol. Not even a little?

Dread

07-07-2009, 12:12 AM

I did enjoy some parts, I just don't see the need to insert the 40's helmet look just because Hitch is drawing it. Most of Cap's flashbacks were without it. Even many written by Brubaker. It worked for Ultimates but I prefer to keep Ultimate stuff there, not in 616.

THE ULTIMATES is overrated, though. For all of Millar's pop culture references, the comic's seemed to age very quickly.

Darthphere

07-07-2009, 10:27 AM

Aw c'mon, you didnt enjoy Ultimates Dread? lol. Not even a little?

I can answer this question. No.

TheCorpulent1

07-07-2009, 10:50 AM

I find Hitch overrated beyond belief.
I find him overrated, but I can appreciate why people love him so much. He is a really good artist and, although his style gets way too much hype for being "widescreen cinematic" (:whatever:), it does tend to draw people in, and more readers are never bad.

Darthphere

07-07-2009, 11:08 AM

His attention to detail is great, though it takes way too long.

BrianWilly

07-07-2009, 11:47 AM

I don't know when I first noticed, but at some point I noticed that his people never seem to freakin' talk. Their mouths are always just a)deadpan closed (http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7772/captainamericathor.jpg), b)sort of lopsidedly hanging open (http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3504/ff56816.jpg), or c)twisted into some polymorphous indication of "shouting."

You'll never hear me say that he's a bad artist, but still.

TheCorpulent1

07-07-2009, 12:02 PM

Heh, I never noticed that. That is a bit awkward.

Personally, the only things that keep me from saying Hitch is totally overrated are his angles and attention to detail. The guy takes risks with angles that other artists wouldn't even conceive of and pulls them off perfectly.

Darthphere

07-07-2009, 12:28 PM

That panel right after Zola talks to Norman with Cap standing there in Normandy is breathtaking. It has a lot to do with the coloring more so than the actual figure. But the pose, the angle, the coloring really makes it shine.

Alastor

07-08-2009, 12:37 AM

Its just a helmet. Soldiers wear helmets in war, so I find the change pretty insignificant, something I can look past and say, meh. I'm not a big fan of injecting realism into superhero comics, but the helmet even looks like his mask and covers his face so I don't really see the big deal.

And I like the wings being drawn on the helmet instead of him having actual wings as well.

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 09:07 AM

It's not a big deal, it's just irritating that Hitch's ego is so huge he can't even adhere to what Cap's costume has been established to look like in that era.

Dread

07-08-2009, 05:13 PM

It's not a big deal, it's just irritating that Hitch's ego is so huge he can't even adhere to what Cap's costume has been established to look like in that era.

Yeah, that's usually my feeling too.

Whether by design or accident, it seems a lot of the talent that more or less made their claims to fame at Marvel with launching the Ultimate line just have these gigantic chips on their shoulder that refuse to allow them to compromise a lot when it comes to dealing with 616. For Bendis if you want him to accept continuity that is essential to a character he is writing but he feels is "wrong", you all but must perform 12 Labors for him to gain his favor. Mark Millar has never let logic, facts, or history prevent him from over the top dialogue, explosions, and the word "meatball". And for Hitch, it seems little can prevent him for his "flair" for "realistic" costumes that have helmets, zippers, rivets, pouches, and of course pouches with zippers that also have rivets.

I swear, the superhero genre of comics is the only one that so gladly enjoys the talents of many creators who profess to hate a lot of it or feel it is wrong. Imagine someone writing Western comics who routinely criticizes the genre expectations of said stories. Imagine someone on JONAH HEX saying, "Y'know, I always thought the named horse bit was dumb, or gun duels, and y'know come to mention it, it often can have sexist or racist overtones. To hell with being accurate to the 19th century!"

That said, I do think Hitch's work is a little different alongside Brubaker and Guice than it is with Millar and I do wonder how many issues he can do without lateness considering he likely had, maybe, a month of "lead in" time.

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 05:35 PM

His FF's been coming out pretty regularly, right? He should be able to handle Reborn well enough. As I understand it, Guice is partly there to pick up any slack from Hitch. Which, come to think of it, makes me really hope Hitch can't manage to keep things timely. Maybe we'll get whole issues by Guice, who's vastly superior to Hitch in my book. ;)

Dread

07-08-2009, 05:37 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Guice was drawing at least one whole issue out of five. To be fair Hitch was on time with most of FF, beyond one month delay.

Brubaker answers questions and ducks for cover in this interview at Newsarama:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/070908-Bru-Reborn.html

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 05:44 PM

I'm glad he's insulted about people claiming he's ripped off Lost. I was insulted for him when I first heard that mentioned.

Dread

07-08-2009, 06:23 PM

I never thought he ripped off anything. Writers have been ripping each other off or sharing ideas since cave people painted stuff in caves. My issue was him backtracking bullets for "time gun" and claiming someone can be both alive and dead and not one or the other. It's either a "coma" or it is one or the other. Not both. And a coma isn't dead.

If Steve's body was "lost in time" the moment he was shot in the torso a half dozen times close range and died, then he cannot be alive. A corpse is lost in the time stream; albeit a fresh one, perhaps ripe for cloning or Red Skull's eager consciousness, which may be what he wanted. But a corpse cannot experience anything. It's dead flesh. The only way it works is if Steve's "spirit" is also lost in time with the corpse, and in essence the time stream is serving as purgatory. Which is odd because usually "supernatural" stuff can trump science and Death I would imagine would be more than eager to claim Captain America of all people. I mean she once asked Thanos to kindly kill half the universe because too many superheroes and their associates were cheating death and it made her look bad, after all. Whether one believes in spirits or not in real life is not the issue; the soul "exists" in Marvel Comics. The only hiccup is why Thor with the Odinforce could not send Steve's spirit on it's way.

That's...a bit stupidly complicated. But I concede not dumber than, I don't know, Xorn's Brother-Pretending-To-Be-Magneto-Pretending-To-Be-Xorn who killed Jean Grey, who may or may not be reincarnated as Hope, who is growing up via time travel with Cable, who himself is the son of Scott Summers and Jean's clone Maddie Pryor thrown forward in time so he is older than his father. :o

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 06:34 PM

Who said Steve's both alive and dead? The way I see it, the gun killed Steve's body but somehow separated his spirit from it, which has been bouncing around through time and popping back into his body at various points in his life. That's how his spirit was able to communicate with Thor as well, since Thor has shown he's able to summon spirits simply as spirits without requiring a body. So his body's dead but his spirit's tumbling through time. Nothing wrong with that, since we know from other comics that spirits exist body-free on other planes all the time.

Dread

07-08-2009, 06:59 PM

Zola said that. By proxy Brubaker. :p

Steve's spirit was separated from his body by BEING SHOT TO DEATH, much like a head is separated from the torso when decapitated. The problem it seems is that rather than float onto a supernatural purgatory or afterlife or heaven or whatever, Steve's spirit was zapped by the time mojo and is stuck in time too. I sort of gather at best that the corpse itself is in one place and Steve's spirit is reliving moments of his own time-line because it has nowhere else to go. I mean a corpse can't, say, get shoved into Steve's past form in the 30's to watch his mother die, but a spirit could do that easily. For all we know the corpse could be somewhere else entirely after Sharon smashed the gizmo and Kang is selling it for $50 at a 41st century garage sale. Skull wants Rogers' body, not his soul. And it was intended to sound like it sounds. ;)

Still, the fact that it needs so much interpretation kind of means it wasn't exactly depicted in a clear way that doesn't need some explanation or road-map. At least right now. REBORN has another 4 issues to sell things better.

kguillou

07-08-2009, 08:08 PM

Even though i was initially displeased with this whole storyline, i have faith in Brubaker to make things work. He seems to be one of the more down-to-earth writers that listen to the fans. I feel like even though Steve's back, Brubaker will find a way to keep Bucky in the center stage.

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 08:11 PM

I never doubted Bucky would still have some role to play as long as Brubaker's writing. He clearly loves the character. I imagine there'll be at least one arc devoted to redefining Cap and Bucky's relationship now that both will be back in the present and of sound mind.

Blader5489

07-08-2009, 09:07 PM

I'm glad he's insulted about people claiming he's ripped off Lost. I was insulted for him when I first heard that mentioned.
When did he say he was insulted? Unless I missed something, all he did was acknowledge the similarity and say he forgot they used the constant concept in the show.

On the subject of that interview, Brubaker's explanation has me even more confused. Does this...

NRAMA: True. Before we go on, let’s nail down some of the little details. You play Zola, I'll play Osborn. The gun Sharon wielded "froze" Steve in time and space...where?
EB: In his own body. He was killed, but frozen right there at that moment.
...mean that Steve was shot dead, but the "time bullets" kept his mind trapped in his body? And then when Sharon destroyed Doom's machine, his mind escaped and is now just bouncing around time?

Colossal Spoons

07-08-2009, 09:31 PM

...mean that steve was shot dead, but the "time bullets" kept his mind trapped in his body? And then when sharon destroyed doom's machine, his mind escaped and is now just bouncing around time?

w t f

GNR

07-08-2009, 09:39 PM

hey all!been a while...

I have yet to pick up Cap #50,#600 and Reborn #1

all this talk of time travel has me a bit worried but i'm willing to give Bru a chance

TheCorpulent1

07-08-2009, 09:59 PM

When did he say he was insulted?
Here:
EB: [...] But really, it's a bit insulting that anyone thinks me or Morrison or any other writer is looking at current comics or TV shows or movies that just came out and going "oh, I'm going to take that idea and do it!"

random_havoc

07-11-2009, 03:27 PM

TheCorpulent1

07-11-2009, 03:46 PM

I imagine people will probably still buy it anyway. I know I will.

random_havoc

07-11-2009, 03:50 PM

I imagine people will probably still buy it anyway. I know I will.

And that's exactly why they keep putting out pieces of crap, cuz they know they can do it and people are still suckers enough to buy it.

TheCorpulent1

07-11-2009, 03:52 PM

random_havoc

07-11-2009, 04:05 PM

No offense, but I'll trust 50+ issues of fantastic quality from Brubaker over your review and read it for myself. Sure, it might really suck as much as you claim. Or it might be great to me and you just didn't have a taste for it. Different strokes.

Okay, or you could spend a minute flipping through it at the store instead of blowing $4+. It wouldn't take you any more than a flip through for you to figure this ish out.

I agree about the other issues, the whole run has been great. But this one, definitely isn't. As I said, they should've made it a separate one-shot, it has nothing to do with the series' main storyline anyway. Just one more in a friggin massive line of Marvel money grabs, and it's startin to bother me that people keep falling for them like lemmings walking off a cliff.

kguillou

07-11-2009, 04:48 PM

I am starting to get a little little sick of the constant flashbacks to Bucky and Cap's past. I feel like Brubaker spent the last three issues of Captain America reintroducing Captain America and Bucky.

TheCorpulent1

07-11-2009, 04:58 PM

I love them.

Tron Bonne

07-11-2009, 06:40 PM

-This issue could just as easily have been a one-shot called "Cap and Bucky fight vampires during WWII".

Oh geez. That stuff could be so cool but so rarely is

moraldeficiency

07-11-2009, 06:43 PM

Cap and Bucky fight vampires in WW2? That will sell me right there. How is that possibly a negative statement?

Tron Bonne

07-11-2009, 06:48 PM

It's sad because stuff like that could always be awesome in a campy, fun sort of way. It seems every time someone does it though it ends up being crappy. Though I really can't think of any

SpideyInATree

07-11-2009, 07:08 PM

Just finished reading my advanced copy of #601 and felt I needed to warn you all. Don't worry, I won't say anything specific, so no spoilers to worry about. But I will say this: SAVE YOUR MONEY!

Reasons to NOT buy Cap #601:

-It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with current cap storyline. It's yet ANOTHER flashback to a WWII cap and bucky adventure.

-It's done by a guest artist who originlly did art in the 40's. I'm sure he was great for back then, but compared to most artists these days he sucks.

-This issue could just as easily have been a one-shot called "Cap and Bucky fight vampires during WWII". Then they could give the poor old artist some work and we wouldn't have to read this crappy issue. But they knew that wouldn't sell of course, so they included in the main cap series, which REALLY sucks.

-Despite it being written by Brubaker, the story is just stupid.

End rant.

Well, it's a flashback probably because Steve Rogers is stuck in his own timeline, reliving his past. From what I got out of Captain America Reborn # 1.

My biggest gripe is why the HELL did they have to put the story in a separate miniseries? Couldn't they have just told all this story in the regular Captain America title?

Seems to me, in this very tough economical time, that Marvel is trying desperately to put out as many books as possible. This along with all those Dark Reign miniseries and one shots...holy crap it's no wonder I am reading more DC and Independent books.

Though story wise this is some good stuff. Brubaker is an awesome writer and I will be with this story but I will be just buying the Reborn mini and skipping out on the regular Cap title if all it is going to be is flashback stuff.

I can see how it got compared to Lost though. That's the first thing I thought of at the end of Reborn # 1 when Cap went hopping through time. There was no flashing white light though...so I guess it's not a COMPLETE rip off. Heh. :cwink:

Tron Bonne

07-11-2009, 07:14 PM

My biggest gripe is why the HELL did they have to put the story in a separate miniseries? Couldn't they have just told all this story in the regular Captain America title?

Yeah, that's how it could have been done. This way though they can charge an extra buck (with their policy of all minis and one-shots costing $3.99 now) and have their own quasi-event while DC has Blackest Night.

At least they didn't make Reborn a mini and have it going through the main book as well, and charging $3.99 for each issue of that too.

SpideyInATree

07-11-2009, 07:28 PM

Yeah really. It is just starting to get too darn expensive to keep up with things anymore. There is a lot of awesomeness out there I just don't have the money for it anymore. :csad:

moraldeficiency

07-11-2009, 07:35 PM

Just looked at the preview, me likey. Seems like nick fury might be the guy to bring cap back, the way he said there was something "off" in that civil war clip. Possibility: since cap is stuck in time (or maybe multiple times) is it possible he's slightly changing history and therefore his past seems off to people that were there?

Teardrop, I heard good things about captian britian MI13 with vampire missles and dracula. Bru's a good enough writer to make this work pretty well.

Tron Bonne

07-11-2009, 07:40 PM

Teardrop, I heard good things about captian britian MI13 with vampire missles and dracula. Bru's a good enough writer to make this work pretty well.

Well, yeah, but that's one of their established enemies right? Stuff like that makes sense. I just mean like throwing Vampires or Werewolves or Zombies Aliens in WWII where they don't belong and making a fun story of it.

I think most of that stuff doesn't work so well usually, but like I said, I can't really recall anything off the top of my head. The title is on my pull list so I'll probably pick it up, unless I flip through and think it's that bad.

moraldeficiency

07-11-2009, 07:53 PM

Don't belong? You forget your captian america here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Blood_%28comics%29

Tron Bonne

07-11-2009, 07:55 PM

Well, yeah, but you know what I'm saying

TheCorpulent1

07-12-2009, 09:50 AM

I have no problem with Captain America fighting vampires, zombies, or any other forms of supernatural horror. I think people get way too wrapped up in genres and what they think each character is "supposed" to be. Comics are supposed to be fun to me, and Nazi vampires sound pretty damned fun to me.

Tron Bonne

07-12-2009, 01:21 PM

I don't have a problem with it, but it seems most of the time that stuff just ends up being kind of dumb and just kind of shrug worthy instead of genuinely fun

chris moore

07-12-2009, 02:00 PM

Getting a little tired of the constant WW2 flashbacks. Its something thats started to irritate me more and more over the last couple years. Though it is less irritating when its Bucky thats remembering. For Cap its like, sure he's the living legend of WW2 and was born in that time period so relates to it as a younger man. But seriously, he was Cap for less than five years during the war before he got frozen, and he's been an active hero and government agent in modern times for 10+ years of Marvel time. Yet everything about the man is defined by his time in WW2 and his 'man out of time' thing

SpideyInATree

07-12-2009, 03:04 PM

TheCorpulent1

07-12-2009, 03:07 PM

Nazi vampire gorillas beat them all.

Anubis

07-12-2009, 03:07 PM

Nuh uh, Nazi Vampire cross dressing gorillas.

TheCorpulent1

07-12-2009, 03:18 PM

Touché, sir.

Dread

07-13-2009, 01:02 AM

Considering that REBORN is essentially serving as the latest 5 issue arc of CAPTAIN AMERICA, just Marvel figures they can sell more copies of it as a mini unto itself (and are likely right), I am not surprised that #601 is a "fill in" type story as some describe.

From what some say, it also is another Bucky and Cap WWII story flashback, which have long ago been done to death. Not quite as done to death about a story where Logan runs into an "old friend who we never met before nor will we ever see again" or a ninja, but very, very close.

But, Brubaker's usually a pro at execution, so I wouldn't be surprised if #601 worked as an entertaining diversion. I'll wait to read the issue.

And to be fair, Marvel's WWII was full of supernatural stuff. Nazi's were not only making robots and superhumans, but summoning demons or raising zombies, among other things. And hey, wasn't Baron Blood a "Nazi Vampire"? So it isn't like this is really "genre shattering" for Cap.

iloveclones

07-13-2009, 02:24 PM

With all the talk about the supernatural, I thought I'd point out that Gene Colan is doing a Varient Cover for Cap #601 ( I think). For you young whippersnappers, although he worked on a lot of stuff, Gene Colan is probably most closely associated with Tomb of Dracula. He has a thick (I don't know how else to describe it), moody style. I can't use Photobucket here, so if someone else wants to post it, that would be cool. If TMOB drops in here, he'll dig it, because I know he loves him some Marvel Monster stuff.

iloveclones

07-13-2009, 02:56 PM

Ooooh, I was wrong, but in a good way. That's not a varient cover, he's doing the art for that issue. Very Nice....

Dread

07-13-2009, 04:38 PM

I knew who Gene Colan was/is, and I'm probably still considered a "young whippersnapper", i.e. am under 30. :up:

iloveclones

07-13-2009, 04:53 PM

Yeah, but you're cool (if a bit wordy).

Dread

07-13-2009, 04:57 PM

Yeah, but you're cool (if a bit wordy).

Thanks. It isn't every day I get a compliment mixed in with an understatement. ;)

iloveclones

07-13-2009, 04:58 PM

Now that I'm home, here's that Gene Colan cover:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/iloveclones/captainamerica601.jpg

GC is one of those guys that, I'm not sure I'd read comics drawn by him all day long, but he has a distinctive style that really lends a lot of atmosphere to a story (he probably could have fit in with the artists who did Sandman.)

iloveclones

07-13-2009, 04:59 PM

Thanks. It isn't every day I get a compliment mixed in with an understatement. ;)

Yes, but which did you think was which?

Blader5489

07-13-2009, 09:20 PM

I can see how it got compared to Lost though. That's the first thing I thought of at the end of Reborn # 1 when Cap went hopping through time. There was no flashing white light though...so I guess it's not a COMPLETE rip off. Heh. :cwink:
Wasn't there like a fade-to-white kind of transition when Steve moved from one time period to the next? I can't check for myself, I don't have it anymore.

Anyway, filler or not, I may as well pick up #601 since it'll likely be my last issue of Captain America (or at the very least, my last issue for 6 months).

TheCorpulent1

07-14-2009, 08:00 AM

Yeah, there was.

SpideyInATree

07-14-2009, 08:59 PM

Just found out that after # 601 the Cap title will take a break until Reborn is over. That is refreshing news.

Cosmic

07-14-2009, 09:45 PM

I have no interest in Reborn. I'm not really that invested in the whole aspect of Steve Rogers's death, which I thought was pretty stupid at the time. I started buying the title again, not because of the hype from Cap's death, but because the comics were great quality, every single month. This just seems like an excuse to charge more money for a story that could have been told in the regular ongoing title. I'm going to pass on this one.

Texas

07-15-2009, 10:21 AM

Tron Bonne

07-15-2009, 01:03 PM

The standard price for Cap. was standard priced at $2.99. Both issue 50 and the upcoming 601 are double-sized issues which was why they had the $3.99 tag. Before that it was a standard of $2.99.

Texas

07-15-2009, 02:50 PM

The standard price for Cap. was standard priced at $2.99. Both issue 50 and the upcoming 601 are double-sized issues which was why they had the $3.99 tag. Before that it was a standard of $2.99.

Still, was there any doubt that Marvel was going to the $3.99 either way (CAP or Reborn) ?

Tron Bonne

07-15-2009, 03:21 PM

I don't know, I hadn't heard any official word on if Cap was getting a price hike or not

TheCorpulent1

07-15-2009, 03:34 PM

It's pretty clearly a cash grab, same as Immortal Iron Fist 'ending' and being replaced by Immortal Weapons, a mini-series that continues the IIF story but falls under the standard $4 mini-series price tag. But I've read Cap for the past few years and enjoyed it without really caring about the price one way or another, so I'm content to read Reborn at $4.

Dread

07-16-2009, 02:06 AM

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=17191319&postcount=1

Link to my review of CA #601. It's fine.

Spider-ManHero12

07-16-2009, 01:38 PM

Edit - nvm

CaptainCanada

07-31-2009, 11:19 AM

Preview (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=3124&disp=table) of Captain America: Reborn #2.

SpideyInATree

07-31-2009, 11:41 AM

Brubaker is SOOOO TOTALLY ripping off Lost. :oldrazz:

Hitch must REALLY love that helmet on Cap.

Texas

07-31-2009, 12:17 PM

Brubaker is SOOOO TOTALLY ripping off Lost. :oldrazz:

Hitch must REALLY love that helmet on Cap.

And Lost is ripping off........as if there are any truly original ideas anymore

SpideyInATree

07-31-2009, 12:18 PM

And Lost is ripping off........as if there are any truly original ideas anymore

Ugh. I was kidding. The tongue sticking out smiley just goes completely over EVERYONES head these days! :whatever::oldrazz:

roach

07-31-2009, 12:48 PM

And Lost is ripping off........as if there are any truly original ideas anymore

i dont know what Lost is ripping off as I dont know whats really going on except for that the island can time travel...not sure if time travelling land masses have been done before

CaptainCanada

08-18-2009, 03:27 PM

Two previews for Cap-related material:

1) A lettered preview of Nomad #1 (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=3221&disp=table).

2) An unlettered first look at The Marvels Project #2 (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.9217.PREVIEW~colon~_The_Marvels_Proje ct_%232).

Nomad looks really good (love the art), though I get the feeling they're going to have to work a bit to keep Rikki from meeting New Cap until the final issue.

TMP looks good. I'd really like if this mini gave us some decent characterization of Dr. Erskine, who's usually just window-dressing. Would provide something new (I really liked the brief scene in Reborn #2 of him and Steve talking).

TheCorpulent1

08-18-2009, 04:21 PM

I'm really looking forward to Nomad. I like Rikki. I still wish Rafael Albuqeurque were doing interiors as well as the covers, but Baldeon's art isn't bad. Sort of like Pete Woods'.

LouFerignoDemon

08-18-2009, 04:26 PM

I might take a look at that Nomad.

Dread

08-18-2009, 04:44 PM

I was considering giving NOMAD a try. I was never a fan of the character but her appearance in CAPTAIN AMERICA #600 was good, and McKeever was usually decent at worst at Marvel.

MARVELS PROJECT had a great debut and I am looking forward to it. I wouldn't be surprised that if there was anything "new" to be "learned" about Steve Rogers, it would be in MARVELS PROJECT and not REBORN.

Tron Bonne

08-18-2009, 04:50 PM

I may try out Nomad. I like what little I've seen of Rikki, and was hoping she'd be the new Bucky to...Bucky, but obviously that won't happen. Like to see what they will do with her.

Rare Marvel mini for me

i dont know what Lost is ripping off as I dont know whats really going on except for that the island can time travel...not sure if time travelling land masses have been done before

Hah, maybe not:woot:

SpideyForPrez

08-18-2009, 09:12 PM

Is the regular cap title taking a pause or being canceled? I don't see any solicitations for it beyond #601. Is it taking a break until Reborn is finished?

Texas

08-18-2009, 09:29 PM

Is the regular cap title taking a pause or being canceled? I don't see any solicitations for it beyond #601. Is it taking a break until Reborn is finished?
Right, taking a break. Reborn is a 5 issue mini and CA should return at its conclusion :cwink:

TheCorpulent1

08-19-2009, 09:37 AM

I may try out Nomad. I like what little I've seen of Rikki, and was hoping she'd be the new Bucky to...Bucky, but obviously that won't happen. Like to see what they will do with her.

Rare Marvel mini for me
I hope she becomes the new Bucky to Steve once he's back. Could do a bit to brighten Steve up after the awful time he had before he died. And apparently while he's been dead.

roach

08-19-2009, 09:40 AM

and the Captain America's transformation into Marvel's Batman will be complete

TheCorpulent1

08-19-2009, 09:43 AM

I know, right, 'cause Captain America having a kid sidekick called Bucky isn't a major part of his own history at all.

BlackLantern

08-19-2009, 09:48 AM

Corp...you are on a roll today

Tron Bonne

08-19-2009, 10:14 AM

I hope she becomes the new Bucky to Steve once he's back. Could do a bit to brighten Steve up after the awful time he had before he died. And apparently while he's been dead.

That'll do too. I just thought the whole old Bucky with a new Bucky would have been a cooler dynamic, but that will work fine

RockSP

08-19-2009, 10:20 AM

I just thought the whole old Bucky with a new Bucky would have been a cooler dynamic,

Yeah that would be interesting to see.

Drz

08-19-2009, 10:24 AM

So anyone liking the theory of Red Skull controlling Steve's body when he returns in Captain America Reborn #5? :)

BlackLantern

08-19-2009, 10:26 AM

Barnes runs solo....I think that works best for him....so what is going to happen with him when this is all done?? back to the Winter Soldier gear?

roach

08-19-2009, 10:29 AM

I know, right, 'cause Captain America having a kid sidekick called Bucky isn't a major part of his own history at all.

im sorry i apologize. I dont know whats wrong with me but I've been posting stupidly lately(no sarcasm).

Tron Bonne

08-19-2009, 10:30 AM

Barnes runs solo....I think that works best for him....so what is going to happen with him when this is all done?? back to the Winter Soldier gear?

It's kind of hard to tell what really works for him since he only had like a year and an half to two year. It would have been interesting to see him fill Steve's shoes even more with Rikki as his Bucky and see where it went. Rikki as Steve's Bucky would be fine too, I wouldn't mind that either.

Barnes' future post-Steve is unknown really. Maybe back to Winter Solider or a new ID. Unless Steve doesn't go directly back to the suit, and Barnes gets another 6 months to year as Cap before Steve eventually goes back to the suit

RockSP

08-19-2009, 10:36 AM

Barnes runs solo....I think that works best for him

Except when he's hanging with Falcon & Black Widow...or The Avengers.

BlackLantern

08-19-2009, 10:36 AM

who wouldn't want to hang with Black Widow??

Franklin Richards

08-19-2009, 10:42 AM

I've got a feeling that Bucky will go back to being "the dead sidekick".

:thing: :doom: :thing:

TheCorpulent1

08-19-2009, 10:56 AM

I don't think he'll die. Brubaker's proven he can be an extremely engaging character. Personally, I would've liked to see him take the Nomad name and have his own series doing his own thing. But who knows what'll happen now that Rikki is Nomad and Steve's coming back? I'm confident it'll at least be interesting with Brubaker at the helm.

LouFerignoDemon

08-19-2009, 11:03 AM

who wouldn't want to hang with Black Widow??
Tony's touched her. I wouldn't. =/

I don't think he'll die. Brubaker's proven he can be an extremely engaging character. Personally, I would've liked to see him take the Nomad name and have his own series doing his own thing. But who knows what'll happen now that Rikki is Nomad and Steve's coming back? I'm confident it'll at least be interesting with Brubaker at the helm.

Get prepared for Bucky's second death upon the return of Cap.

SpideyInATree

08-19-2009, 12:19 PM

So anyone liking the theory of Red Skull controlling Steve's body when he returns in Captain America Reborn #5? :)

That is a very interesting thing. You never know maybe they will pull that off. I'd actually like to see that happen at the end of the miniseries than Captain America just like "Oh, hey, I'm back now. Lets go back to the way things were".