The Official Captain America Thread

[CaptainCanada]

All I have to say is...

We now have (I think) 2 candidates for the mother of the first mutant to be born after M-day.
Carey said in interviews that the baby's parents were not special; and anyway, that story starts in October, so there's nowhere near enough time.

[PhotoJones]

Wanna keep a Captain america around?? Tony might think "clone him. The serum is already in his cells." . Steve might say get another guy.

Why would Tony think that? He's already discovered that the serum has broken down after Steve's death and that it's not usable.

[KangConquers]

One thing I was thinking about earlier that I thought I'd prattle on about in the thread. Bru has taken a lot of characters to new heights in his run. Sin was a foot note before this run; now she's a top 10 Cap villain and rising.

The way Bru's managed to use certain villains makes me think he could even make Batroc not seem silly.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm sure he could. But Batroc would still be Batroc. Once Brubaker's gone, he'd be back to a punchline.

Oh, since we were talking about clones just a second ago, who else read Avengers Classic? The backup story about Gabe Jones running tests to verify Cap's identity was nice. As I was reading the reprint before that, I kept thinking, "Geez, this thing is so dated; a guy who's thought dead for decades comes back and the Avengers are all like, 'Hey, your story sounds kinda sorta remotely plausible--welcome back, Cap!' wtf?"

[PhotoJones]

Whatever happened to Gabe Jones, anyway?

[KangConquers]

I'm sure he could. But Batroc would still be Batroc. Once Brubaker's gone, he'd be back to a punchline.

Oh, since we were talking about clones just a second ago, who else read Avengers Classic? The backup story about Gabe Jones running tests to verify Cap's identity was nice. As I was reading the reprint before that, I kept thinking, "Geez, this thing is so dated; a guy who's thought dead for decades comes back and the Avengers are all like, 'Hey, your story sounds kinda sorta remotely plausible--welcome back, Cap!' wtf?"


Batroc "Of course I'm french! Why do you think I have this OUTRAGEOUS ACCENT!!!!!"

yeahh uh...Cap thawing out was a little dated.

[TheCorpulent1]

Whatever happened to Gabe Jones, anyway?
Wikipedia says he retired from SHIELD after a corps of recruits he trained were killed by Hydra.

[RockSP]

Wikipedia is wrong. Dude was in New Avengers a few issues ago.

[PhotoJones]

It's more likely that it's just Bendis who's wrong.

[Memphis Slim]

They didn't really clone Thor, though. They wrapped a cyborg in some cloned skin and gave him a tech-hammer.

Plus, really, what does the back of Reed Richards' head look like? A white guy with brown hair and white streaks? Yeah, the Marvel universe is really low on those.



Dude......:dry:

Thor was cloned....okay?? :whatever: Don't try to change it to win this little debate. Even the Marvel editors called him a clone. He was not an android.

And no, Marvel doesn't have a lot of Brown-haired, white around the temples scientists, running around.

[Memphis Slim]

Why would Tony think that? He's already discovered that the serum has broken down after Steve's death and that it's not usable.


Do you realize how many blood samples or hair fibers Cap's left over the years?? All those battles??? While the serum was working....?? Tony obviously copped some of Thor's DNA. Stands to reason he secretly got some Steve's too. :yay:

Elementary my dear Watson.

http://www.basilrathbone.net/films/holmes.jpg

[PhotoJones]

Do you realize how many blood samples or hair fibers Cap's left over the years?? All those battles??? While the serum was working....?? Tony obviously copped some of Thor's DNA. Stands to reason he secretly got some Steve's too. :yay:

Elementary my dear Watson.

Haha. The serum's not bonded to Steve's DNA, it's in his blood. And they've tried to replicate it with no avail. Plus, clones in the MU break down after time. What would be the point?

[The_Mystery]

I'm loving Cap just as much as everyone else, but I do have one question that I wonder if anyone can answer for me. Back in the second issue of Bru/Epting's Cap run, Cap sees the corpse of the Red Skull, which is really a cloned version of his body. The corpse seemed to be in good, athletic shape. It wasn't withered and skinny. When Cap dies, his body reverts to the skinny version it began with. Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't Skull's cloned body have reverted to a 98 lbs weakling status?

[Memphis Slim]

Haha. The serum's not bonded to Steve's DNA, it's in his blood. And they've tried to replicate it with no avail. Plus, clones in the MU break down after time. What would be the point?


You're so eager to disagree with anything I say, you're not reading!!! LOL :woot: I said that Tony probably has Steve's blood samples. No doubt from all of those battles over the years.

And all clones break down?? Well Guess they make more than one.

[Memphis Slim]

I'm loving Cap just as much as everyone else, but I do have one question that I wonder if anyone can answer for me. Back in the second issue of Bru/Epting's Cap run, Cap sees the corpse of the Red Skull, which is really a cloned version of his body. The corpse seemed to be in good, athletic shape. It wasn't withered and skinny. When Cap dies, his body reverts to the skinny version it began with. Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't Skull's cloned body have reverted to a 98 lbs weakling status?


You get a No-Prize!! I think it was a editorial mistake.

[PhotoJones]

You're so eager to disagree with anything I say, you're not reading!!! LOL :woot: I said that Tony probably has Steve's blood samples. No doubt from all of those battles over the years.

And all clones break down?? Well Guess they make more than one.

I read what you said, Celldog. It's not a probably, it's a fact that Tony has samples of Steve's blood or at least has access to it. SHIELD has Steve's blood on file. But like I said, they've never been able to duplicate what's in his blood. The only person to do that was Arnim Zola.

And yeah, the clones break down.

[RockSP]

It's more likely that it's just Bendis who's wrong.

I saw him in another comic as well. Hulk, maybe?

[RockSP]

I'm loving Cap just as much as everyone else, but I do have one question that I wonder if anyone can answer for me. Back in the second issue of Bru/Epting's Cap run, Cap sees the corpse of the Red Skull, which is really a cloned version of his body. The corpse seemed to be in good, athletic shape. It wasn't withered and skinny. When Cap dies, his body reverts to the skinny version it began with. Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't Skull's cloned body have reverted to a 98 lbs weakling status?

Maybe it hadn't started to break down yet...

[PhotoJones]

I saw him in another comic as well. Hulk, maybe?

Huh. Well, then I guess it's good he's not chilling in character limbo.

[KangConquers]

I'd like to add that it has been established that Cap can be cloned. Arnim Zola put Red Skulls mind in a clone of Cap's body, and it he appeared to keep his perfect human physique.

Arnim Zola has his face in his tummy...so ...screw him.

[stillanerd]

I don't believe Cap will be brought back via cloning. Instead--and this was a wild idea that popped in my head--Cap could return a la "Teen Tony." What exactly do I mean by this? Well, we know Doctor Doom has a time machine, right? Well, what if Steve Rogers just at the moment he was about to be frozen in ice was taken from 1945 and pulled into the present? Marvel can get around the whole "alteration to history" by re-affirming that time-travelers in the Marvel Universe actually "jump" realities, so that if someone from the past traveled to the future and never went back to his/her own time, it doesn't alter the present. As a result, this not only re-establishes Cap as a hero from a "forgotten age" once again but now, on top of his "future shock" at how much the world has changed since World War II, Cap now discovers that another version of himself had made a new life for himself, became a celebrated hero in his own right, fathered a child, and died. Also, it doesn't diminish the death of Captain America because, technically, Cap will still be dead, and yet at the same time the real Captain America returns, only it's the "Golden Age" Cap. Make sense?

[Memphis Slim]

I don't believe Cap will be brought back via cloning. Instead--and this was a wild idea that popped in my head--Cap could return a la "Teen Tony." What exactly do I mean by this? Well, we know Doctor Doom has a time machine, right? Well, what if Steve Rogers just at the moment he was about to be frozen in ice was taken from 1945 and pulled into the present? Marvel can get around the whole "alteration to history" by re-affirming that time-travelers in the Marvel Universe actually "jump" realities, so that if someone from the past traveled to the future and never went back to his/her own time, it doesn't alter the present. As a result, this not only re-establishes Cap as a hero from a "forgotten age" once again but now, on top of his "future shock" at how much the world has changed since World War II, Cap now discovers that another version of himself had made a new life for himself, became a celebrated hero in his own right, fathered a child, and died. Also, it doesn't diminish the death of Captain America because, technically, Cap will still be dead, and yet at the same time the real Captain America returns, only it's the "Golden Age" Cap. Make sense?


http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/19/49/23454919.jpg

[Xofenroht]

I'm loving Cap just as much as everyone else, but I do have one question that I wonder if anyone can answer for me. Back in the second issue of Bru/Epting's Cap run, Cap sees the corpse of the Red Skull, which is really a cloned version of his body. The corpse seemed to be in good, athletic shape. It wasn't withered and skinny. When Cap dies, his body reverts to the skinny version it began with. Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't Skull's cloned body have reverted to a 98 lbs weakling status?

The best explanation I can think of is that they cloned Steve Rogers after he'd already been enhanced by the super soldier serum. So, when that body dies, it won't revert back to the thin frame of the young Steve, because the super soldier serum is simply a part of its genetic structure, not only a part but an initial part. Since Steve Rogers existed prior to the Super Soldier Serum being introduced to his body, in death, his body expelled the serum along with all of the other fluids in his body.

[TheCorpulent1]

Dude......:dry:

Thor was cloned....okay?? :whatever: Don't try to change it to win this little debate. Even the Marvel editors called him a clone. He was not an android.

And no, Marvel doesn't have a lot of Brown-haired, white around the temples scientists, running around.
Well, his skin was certainly cloned. But it's clearly just slapped on top of a body that's at least partly robotic. You see as much when Hercules smashes Clor's head in with his own hammer.

[kainedamo]

The cybernetics were implanted to control Clor.

[TheCorpulent1]

The cybernetics were implanted to control Clor.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/thecorpulent1/CW5.jpg

The whole inside of his head looks pretty mechanical there to me. I see a little bit of gray matter, I think, but the bulk of the contents of his head is clearly machinery. That's why I said Clor is Thor's skin wrapped over a body that's at least partly robotic.

[Memphis Slim]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/thecorpulent1/CW5.jpg

The whole inside of his head looks pretty mechanical there to me. I see a little bit of gray matter, I think, but the bulk of the contents of his head is clearly machinery. That's why I said Clor is Thor's skin wrapped over a body that's at least partly robotic.


http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thor_(CSA_clone)
Read this.....

Also this interview with Bendis...
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/001746032.cfm?page=2

[PhotoJones]

Your first link has no information, and your second link was interview with Bendis, who did not create the character. Also, you've obviously seen the image that you quoted. That looks like a machine to me. Clor was not a clone in the sense that you want him to be. He was not purely organic.

[kainedamo]

He wasn't purely organic, but he was still a clone.

[PhotoJones]

In what sense? A genetic clone, by definition is an exact replica. Clor may have had cloned tissue (which I'm assuming is the case) from Thor, but he was not a true, perfect or organic clone.

[kainedamo]

His body is a purely organic clone. The cybernetics were implanted after. Well, I'm just assuming that.

You don't know for sure they didn't clone him completely, then just dig out his insides and replace some of it with cybernetics.

[KangConquers]

why are we arguing about clone Thor in a Captain America thread?

Anyway...what do you guys think Skull is trying to do with the time machine?

[PhotoJones]

His body is a purely organic clone. The cybernetics were implanted after. Well, I'm just assuming that.

You don't know for sure they didn't clone him completely, then just dig out his insides and replace some of it with cybernetics.

How can you keep saying he's a pure organic clone and then follow that up, "Well, I'm just assuming that"? We can only by what's shown in the actual comic books, and what has been shown is not organic in the least, save for maybe some outer tissue layers.

[kainedamo]

How can you keep saying he's a pure organic clone and then follow that up, "Well, I'm just assuming that"? We can only by what's shown in the actual comic books, and what has been shown is not organic in the least, save for maybe some outer tissue layers.

And it looks to me, looking at it purely from what was in the comics, that it was an organic body with cybernetic implants.

[PhotoJones]

Do you read Avengers: The Initiavtive?

[kainedamo]

I'd like to but no.

[PhotoJones]

Clor is shown pretty much cut in half. His insides are all mechanical. That's not an organic body with cybernetic implants. That's a cybernetic body with organic tissue.

[deemar325]

I've been thinking whats so special about the Super Soldier Serum anyways?

I mean you got guys like Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and BlackPanther running around, its not like they can't create a enhancement serum thats just as good if not better than the 'SSS'.

Really you got Ironman armor, radioactive spiders, cosmic rays etc... who in there right mind in the Marvel U would give a spit about a serum that only makes you really..buff? When you can simply wear power armor or 'accidently' walk on to a Gamma radiantion test site.

[The Question]

I've been thinking whats so special about the Super Soldier Serum anyways?

I mean you got guys like Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and BlackPanther running around, its not like they can't create a enhancement serum thats just as good if not better than the 'SSS'.

Really you got Ironman armor, radioactive spiders, cosmic rays etc... who in there right mind in the Marvel U would give a spit about a serum that only makes you really..buff? When you can simply wear power armor or 'accidently' walk on to a Gamma radiantion test site.

Well, it's been stated several times that only a fraction of a percentage of the people exposed to Gamma rays survive and get powers. The Leader once dropped a Gamma bomb on an entire town and there were only six survivors. As for powered armor, well, that's hella expensive. There are already procedures much more effective than the SSS, and many fall under the term "Super Soldier Serum" as they all have the same basic function. Besides, they figured out the SSS ages ago, as Black Widow was given it back in the 60s, which is why she's on par with Cap and doesn't look any older than 30, even though she's well over 60.

[deemar325]

I knew they had imperfected version of the serum, not a perfect sample, like Nick Fury and BW as you mentioned have taken a version of it, but it only has limited enhancement. Nick only got extended life, same for Widow and she's not on par with Cap physically, close just not quite.

Also from what I understand most versions of the full serum have severe side effects like heart stroke, abnormal growth of muscles, impaired intelligence, heightened aggression. Pretty much any attempt at the serum has either failed completely or any benefit is minimal (As the case with Fury and Black Widow)

[The Question]

I knew they had imperfected version of the serum, not a perfect sample, like Nick Fury and BW as you mentioned have taken a version of it, but it only has limited enhancement. Nick only got extended life, same for Widow and she's not on par with Cap physically, close just not quite.

Also from what I understand most versions of the full serum have severe side effects like heart stroke, abnormal growth of muscles, impaired intelligence, heightened aggression. Pretty much any attempt at the serum has either failed completely or any benefit is minimal (As the case with Fury and Black Widow)

I think what Natasha got was as close to the full serum as you can get. It's been said that she's just as good as Cap a few times.

[deemar325]

It was in comparision to her training, hell I think she's better trained myself.

[Vanguard07]

You have a point though Dac, I mean in a crossover a while back there was that scientist that came up with a method to recreate the full abilities of both Spiderman and Wolverine. Who the hell cares about Cap's powers if you could have that?

[deemar325]

Exactly!

Why waste time and effort on a SS serum when you can create a bunch of Wolverine clones?

[Vanguard07]

Plus there's a handfull of others whose powers are probably recreateable if a serious group of scientists were determined to try.

Luke Cage, Deathlok, Wonderman, Leonard Samson, Scorpion, Rhino, Sandman, Hydroman, Electro, The Mimic (my personal favorite choice).

Plus there have been a number of machines created by the likes of Apocalypse and Sinister and such that have been able to generate mutants from normal humans. That might be a little trickier after M-day but before that it should have been feasible for the government to accomplish.

If the MU big brains ever put a concerted effort into it they could come up with a hell of a lot of high powered soldiers of a startling variety.

[deemar325]

The only value I see in the SS serum is if your a racial purest and hate even the thought of being considered a mutant or mutate in the case of guys like spider-man.

[3dman27]

yes by comparison to todays super-powers cap;s are ,with apoligies to spidey"puny parker"

[Xofenroht]

yes by comparison to todays super-powers cap;s are ,with apoligies to spidey"puny parker"

Definitely not. Wolverine has trouble with the guy.

[TheCorpulent1]

Captain America's powers may be less impressive than most of the superhero community's, but there's no doubt that he's the greatest hero of the bunch. Maybe they're not trying to load someone down with powers so much as they're trying to recreate Captain America, the man. The SSS is part of him, hence the obsession with it.

But who's really trying to duplicate the SSS now anyway? Most of the attempts at it were over the course of the intervening years between Cap's "death" and the arrival of the modern batch of superheroes.

[PhotoJones]

Aren't they kind of toying with the idea in A: TI, what with MVP's mysterious powers and corpse?

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah. But notice how MVP was also a decent young man with strong morals and American values? They're still chasing that idealized man that Captain America represented.

[PhotoJones]

Or at least, he appeared that way.

[TheCorpulent1]

True.

[PhotoJones]

Now that WWH is out of the way, I really hope Slott gets back to telling MVP's story soon.

[TheCorpulent1]

That, and more on Mutant Zero.

[PhotoJones]

Oh, definitely. He's just scratched the surface with her, though. I think I read somewhere that he said it'll a while before we find out who she is exactly.

[KangConquers]

Captain America's powers may be less impressive than most of the superhero community's, but there's no doubt that he's the greatest hero of the bunch. Maybe they're not trying to load someone down with powers so much as they're trying to recreate Captain America, the man. The SSS is part of him, hence the obsession with it.

But who's really trying to duplicate the SSS now anyway? Most of the attempts at it were over the course of the intervening years between Cap's "death" and the arrival of the modern batch of superheroes.

Cap is the greatest fighter in marvel (or is generally portrayed as such.) And yes, is the greatest hero in marvel, mostly due to his moral fiber. Steve Rogers is about as much of a great man as one can be.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, definitely. He's just scratched the surface with her, though. I think I read somewhere that he said it'll a while before we find out who she is exactly.
That's cool. I just want more clues to fuel my rampant speculation.

[PhotoJones]

Even then, some of these writers are getting good with their mysteries. Cebulski showed us a full on shot of his mystery girl and I still have no idea who she is.

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, I know. I hate it but I love it all at once.

[PhotoJones]

I feel like this will be the greatest reveal of all time, and at the same time I know I'll probably end up disappointed.

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, I don't really care. Dusk was in the last issue!(!!!!!)

[PhotoJones]

For a tiny cameo. :whatever:

[TheCorpulent1]

It's enough for me at this point. I really thought the Slingers were pretty much done when Eddie got killed. :(

[PhotoJones]

As long as there are writers like Slott, Cebulski and Kirkman, nothing is ever finished or obscure enough not to use. :up:

[Steve Rogers]

Steve Rogers is about as much of a great man as one can be.

Aww shucks....:cwink:

[TheCorpulent1]

As long as there are writers like Slott, Cebulski and Kirkman, nothing is ever finished or obscure enough not to use. :up:
Don't forget Vaughan, who picked Johnny up out of the gutter of forgotten characters in the first place. But I wasn't so much afraid that they'd be forgotten as I was that they'd all be made cannon fodder for some overzealous big name who needed random, faintly recognizable characters to off for some dramatic impact in his otherwise bland story.

[PhotoJones]

Damn. I left out the guy who actually created the concept of the Loners. I guess that's just a testament to Cebulski's strong writing, in making it stand on it's own legs. :up:

[Darthphere]

Kiss ass much?

[PhotoJones]

Is Cebulski in here? No? Shut the **** up.

[PhotoJones]

Newsarama's got a preview for CA #31. Is it me or is Epting getting even better?

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/31/CaptainAmerica30pg03.jpg

Beautiful.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=130649

[TheCorpulent1]

Epting's great. He really loves making Tony stroke his 'stache in contemplation, though. Seriously, that's the only pose Tony's doing in every panel of one of the pages.

[Upset Spideyfan]

If you got it, stroke it.

[PhotoJones]

He's not doing it in the bottom left panel. :o

[Upset Spideyfan]

Only a momentary pause in his stroking.

[TheCorpulent1]

He's not doing it in the bottom left panel. :o
In his mind he is.

[PhotoJones]

You're ridiculous.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ridiculous like Tony's obsession with his 'stache.

[PhotoJones]

At least Epting makes it look like the prettiest 'stcahe stroke ever. :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

Epting should draw Tom Selleck. That would be the prettiest 'stache stroke ever.

[PhotoJones]

My brain would not be able to interpret what my eyes were seeing, it would be so awesome.

[Steve Rogers]

Epting should draw Tom Selleck. That would be the prettiest 'stache stroke ever.

A Cap Magnum PI crossover? I'm on board.

[Kitsune]

A Cap Magnum PI crossover? I'm on board.

They could even throw in Simon and Simon for good measure.

[PhotoJones]

A Cap Magnum PI crossover? I'm on board.

They could even throw in Simon and Simon for good measure.

My brain just exploded from the sheer manliness of a Cap/Magnum/Simon crossover.

[Steve Rogers]

Sounds messy.

[PhotoJones]

It was. Luckily, I have all those neatly trimmed mustaches to wipe up with. :up:

[Steve Rogers]

I can see it now:

CAP: We have to help these people!
MAGNUM PI: Why don't I trim my 'stache and then we can drive around in my red Ferrari and honk at pretty girls?
CAP: No! This ends now! We have an obligation to these people! We have to save them!
MAGNUM PI: But my jeans are to tight. Besides, these people are ugly. I don't help ugly people, only beautiful blonde women.

[Kitsune]

It was. Luckily, I have all those neatly trimmed mustaches to wipe up with. :up:

We could have Magnum and Stark face off mustache to mustache

[PhotoJones]

Magnum's would totally win. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

S'true. Tony's got some chic, modern goatee. Only Tom Selleck is man enough to wear facial hair from 1887 in 2007. :up:

[PhotoJones]

Tom Selleck....and me. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't compare yourself to Selleck. It's embarrassing.

[PhotoJones]

I didn't. I said that I rock facial hair popular in 1887.

[TheCorpulent1]

You put yourself in the same sentence as Tom Selleck. That's inexcusable. :(

[PhotoJones]

Just because you're a waste of pansy flesh, doesn't mean the rest of are, dude.

[TheCorpulent1]

What does that have to do with anything? :confused: We are all still inferior to the Selleck.

[PhotoJones]

The point is that I never made the claim that I was on his level. You just seem to want to think that just to try and make me feel bad, probably because of your own insecurities. I have manly facial hair. Strapping men in the 1880's would envy this kind of manliness.

[TheCorpulent1]

Men in the 1880s had more manliness than we can even conceive of. :o

[PhotoJones]

Men in the 1880s had more manliness than I can even conceive of. :o

Fixed. :up:

[Anubis]

I love the conversations we have here.

[PhotoJones]

I love that avatar. :up:

[Anubis]

Goon is, teh awesome.

[PhotoJones]

I need to see a Goon movie.

[Anubis]

I wont go see it if he's not played by Ron Pearlman.

[PhotoJones]

What about Mickey Rourke?

[Anubis]

Not even Mickey Rourke.

[PhotoJones]

Damn, dude. If there is a Goon movie someday, you might never see it. :(

[Anubis]

I know :(

[PhotoJones]

What if it's animated?

[Anubis]

I'd be cool with that, but who does the voice work?

[SpideyInATree]

My shop sold out of # 30 when it came out but I was able to finally get a hold of a copy. I see why it sold out, this issue was freakin' fantastic. Brubaker continues to show that this is the best mainstream superhero book being put out on the shelves today. Even before Cap's death it was the best book.

But anyway...

I was waiting for Lukin/Skull to use a code word or something. And, DAMN, talk about an awesome cliffhanger with Sharon blasting Widow and Falcon, but what was up with the letter that Tony had from Steve? Are we to now believe that Steve Rogers KNEW he was going to die or something? Or did I miss something somewhere? I probably did. You read like 30 to 40 different comics and you'll miss something...

But this stuff gets better and better. Hopefully Brubaker and Epting can stay on this title and break the Bendis/Bagley record.

[3dman27]

it could be that steve had his will made out in the event of his death and thats what tony has

[Steve Rogers]

I was waiting for Lukin/Skull to use a code word or something. And, DAMN, talk about an awesome cliffhanger with Sharon blasting Widow and Falcon, but what was up with the letter that Tony had from Steve? Are we to now believe that Steve Rogers KNEW he was going to die or something? Or did I miss something somewhere? I probably did. You read like 30 to 40 different comics and you'll miss something...

But this stuff gets better and better. Hopefully Brubaker and Epting can stay on this title and break the Bendis/Bagley record.

I think Cap wrote that when he turned himself in. I assume he thought he would be going to jail so he wrote that letter to Tony. Just a guess. Unless this is a new plot point. Or maybe he's not dead and Tony is in contact with him? Who knows? But initial thought was that he wrote it upon surrendering to Tony.

So um is there a Steve jr. in the future? Or was that more of Sharon getting her head messed with? Only time will tell I guess.

While Sharon shooting Widow and Falcon was a decent cliff hanger, what really has me going is the fact that Tony has realized that maybe Sharon had something to do with Steve's death The plot is thickening and I am loving it!

I am so surprised how much I am loving this whole story arc. They murder my favorite character after having him become a fugitive and instead of being pissed off, I am loving it. Take note Spider-Man fans, us Cap fans have the real reason to be complaining now. But since Brubaker is God personified, there is no way I can complain.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but in Spider-Man's case, it could potentially be permanent. Cap fans know for damn sure that Cap's coming back someday.

I could see Steve writing the letter to Tony in one of two circumstances:

1) When the Civil War first began. Going to war with friends is still going to war, and as a man who lived through one of the worst wars ever, he knows there's always a chance that you won't come back. So, with that in mind, he wrote the letter to Tony knowing that whatever came between them, Tony would still honor his wishes in death.

2) When he surrendered. Back in Frontline, I think, Cap tells a SHIELD agent that they're going to hang him for treason with absolute certainty. Knowing he's going to die--and possibly knowing that his actions would have tarnished the Captain America icon to some Americans--Cap writes the letter to Tony, again, knowing that Tony would respect his wishes after he's dead, and requests that the legacy of Captain America not remain tarnished forever with him because, as he says in the letter, Captain America is bigger than just Steve Rogers.

Personally, I think the latter one is likelier.

[Steve Rogers]

Yeah, but in Spider-Man's case, it could potentially be permanent. Cap fans know for damn sure that Cap's coming back someday.

Okay, call me ignorant, but what the hell happened in the Spidey world that has everyone so pissed? Is it because he's part of the post Civil War New Avengers? Because of his identity being public? What is it exactly?

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, I think you're right. Rogers probably wrote that when he was arrested to Tony because he figured he'd be in jail for a long time. Don't know why I wouldn't think of that...I read too many damn comics is the problem, heh.

But the Spider-Man comparison is that Spider-Man fans seem to think that THEY ARE PETER PARKER. Because I have spent lots of time in the Spider-Man comics forum and most people react very personally when Spider-Man doesn't go their way.

With Cap, most fans don't seem to take it so personally. Plus Cap's death was handled with class and with a killer freakin' storyline. A lot of Spider-Man's recent stories have been covered in bad storytelling and bad continuity.

So, there is that.

[Steve Rogers]

...I read too many damn comics is the problem, heh. That's a problem????

:cwink:

[SpideyInATree]

Well, if you're trying to get a girl in your room for a night of sexual pleasure and she keeps tripping over your comics and graphic novels...heh...it does become a slight problem.

But, for the most part...comics are my crack. :oldrazz:

[KangConquers]

Okay, call me ignorant, but what the hell happened in the Spidey world that has everyone so pissed? Is it because he's part of the post Civil War New Avengers? Because of his identity being public? What is it exactly?

They're using Mephisto as a plot device to break up Peter's Marriage.

Unlike Cap's comic, which is constantly moving forward, Spider-Man is basically rebooting based around this information.

So where as Cap is evolving, Spider-Man, they won't let evolve. They want to keep him 23 forever, and since he's pushing 30, that involves retconning all things that make him an adult.

[TheCorpulent1]

Okay, call me ignorant, but what the hell happened in the Spidey world that has everyone so pissed? Is it because he's part of the post Civil War New Avengers? Because of his identity being public? What is it exactly?
People right now are upset over a spoiler from the end of "One More Day." I don't want to spoil it for you, though, so check the last few pages of the Amazing Spider-Man thread here if you want to know what it is.

EDIT: Or you could just read KangConquers' post above mine.

[Steve Rogers]

So they are rebooting it again? Well as far ashis marriage breaking up, that could certainly be resolved. If people can come back from the dead I think relationships can be saved and or resurected. Milla and Matt Murdock anyone? but yeah, that only works if they let the character evolve. Now my best friend thinks the current Amazing Spider-Man books coming out right now are the best comics he's ever read. Interesting.

[SpideyInATree]

Most Spider-Man fans have been angry with Quesada, JMS, and Marvel in general ever since the Ezekiel stuff in 2002. Fans thought JMS was OUTRIGHT SAYING that Spider-Man's origin was brought on by the hand of fate and not just an accident, etc. But, fans didn't necessarily get rabid at that time.

Sins Past was the storyline that got fans really angry. Even I, a more laid back poster, thought Sins Past was a horrid piece of fiction. But it's been ever since THIS storyline that many fans have just been non-stop with the whole "Quesada is ruining Spider-Man..." and "JMS is a hack..." stuff.

Most of the Spider-Man fans just saying "Oh, he's being written out of character..." whenever a storyline comes up that they don't like.

I'd tell you to look for yourself in the Spider-Man comics forum, but I don't want you to go through that kind of pain, hahaha.

[Steve Rogers]

comics are my crack. :oldrazz:Sigworthy :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, seems like stories that **** up Peter's love life are what get Spider-Man fans really riled up. I dropped ASM when I heard the news. I'll just go into standby mode and patiently wait to see if anyone restores what I consider to be Spider-Man's proper status quo.

[KangConquers]

Most Spider-Man fans have been angry with Quesada, JMS, and Marvel in general ever since the Ezekiel stuff in 2002. Fans thought JMS was OUTRIGHT SAYING that Spider-Man's origin was brought on by the hand of fate and not just an accident, etc. But, fans didn't necessarily get rabid at that time.

Sins Past was the storyline that got fans really angry. Even I, a more laid back poster, thought Sins Past was a horrid piece of fiction. But it's been ever since THIS storyline that many fans have just been non-stop with the whole "Quesada is ruining Spider-Man..." and "JMS is a hack..." stuff.

Most of the Spider-Man fans just saying "Oh, he's being written out of character..." whenever a storyline comes up that they don't like.

I'd tell you to look for yourself in the Spider-Man comics forum, but I don't want you to go through that kind of pain, hahaha.


Well, Spidey fans want him to be portrayed as the Smartest, the best fighter, and one of the strongest. He's known of those. His intellect is incredibly minor compared to Richards, Stark, Pym and Banner, his strength minor compared to Thor, Hercules, Hulk and his fighting skills minor when compared to Captain America, Wolverine, and Iron Fist.


At the same time, look at Peter at his start compared to other Marvelites. He was slightly younger than the X-Men, slightly younger than the Human Torch and Sue Storm. Tons of them have kids now, and act like actual adults.

It's time to let Aunt May croak, and have Peter and MJ finally get baby May back, or have another kid, for Peter to become a father, and a man with a steady income, a mortgage, an adult life.

They need to finally let Spider-Man become 30.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that'd be nice. It's never gonna happen, though. They're seeing to that as we speak.

[KangConquers]

Yeah, that'd be nice. It's never gonna happen, though. They're seeing to that as we speak.

If I ever got in any position of power with Marvel after Joe Q leaves his post, I would totally have Spidey go domestic, and changing a diaper, just to piss off Joe. He always mentioned that as something he never wanted in Spidey.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's a stupid viewpoint. I hope the current regime recognizes the irony, given how much they rail against comic fans who hate change.

[PhotoJones]

That John Byrne reboot a while back seems better by the day.

[TheCorpulent1]

Chapter One? God, that was horrid.

[PhotoJones]

Compared to what's coming? No, it wasn't.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know, it was a pretty across-the-board rapefest. At least the current thing is just one specific element. Neither is good, mind you, but the current thing is at least more contained.

[PhotoJones]

I have a personal intolerance of mindwipes. I like creativity, not copouts.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, yeah. But Byrne's stuff was just a copout to try and quick-fix the Clone Saga fallout, too.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Well, Spidey fans want him to be portrayed as the Smartest, the best fighter, and one of the strongest. He's known of those. His intellect is incredibly minor compared to Richards, Stark, Pym and Banner, his strength minor compared to Thor, Hercules, Hulk and his fighting skills minor when compared to Captain America, Wolverine, and Iron Fist.


At the same time, look at Peter at his start compared to other Marvelites. He was slightly younger than the X-Men, slightly younger than the Human Torch and Sue Storm. Tons of them have kids now, and act like actual adults.

It's time to let Aunt May croak, and have Peter and MJ finally get baby May back, or have another kid, for Peter to become a father, and a man with a steady income, a mortgage, an adult life.

They need to finally let Spider-Man become 30.


he's 27-28 ish.:yay: and i agree with your post.

[3dman27]

what are spidey comments doing in a captain america thread?

[Steve Rogers]

We don't know what else to talk about until issue 31 comes out?

[KangConquers]

We don't know what else to talk about until issue 31 comes out?

Well we could talk about hmmm

what villains would you like to see come into play in the future of Bru's run? Also, what's Skull doing with a Time Machine straight from Time Traveller Jr. Dr. Doom?

[CaptainCanada]

Not a villain (anymore), but I'd like to see Baron Zemo show up, since he's in limbo these days.

[Anubis]

Yeah. Would love to see his feelings about Caps death.

[GNR]

We've already seen Thor unleash on Iron Man,but I want to see his reaction to Cap's death.Obviously he's pissed,but it would be nice to see.

Same with Hulk's,once his revenge trip is over.

[KangConquers]

We've already seen Thor unleash on Iron Man,but I want to see his reaction to Cap's death.Obviously he's pissed,but it would be nice to see.

Same with Hulk's,once his revenge trip is over.

Yes. Zemo, Thor, and Hulk's reactions to Cap's death ALL need to be in the pages of Cap eventually.

Hell, they could make a full issue out of Zemo's reaction. It'd probably be one of those great thinking issues, where nothing happens but you get great insight into a character. Given Zemo's considerable history with Cap, it'd be a great read.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know if I'd prefer Thor's reaction to Cap's death be in Cap's comic or his own. Either one would be fine, I guess.

Zemo's reaction would be interesting. I think Brubaker's probably going to stick to the Sharon subplot and Bucky vs. Red Skull and Iron Man thing for a long time, though.

[Steve Rogers]

Zemo's reaction would be interesting. I think Brubaker's probably going to stick to the Sharon subplot and Bucky vs. Red Skull and Iron Man thing for a long time, though.Really? After issue 30 it felt like it was nearing its climax.

[PhotoJones]

I don't know if I'd prefer Thor's reaction to Cap's death be in Cap's comic or his own. Either one would be fine, I guess.

Um...one book would have Epting and Perkins drawing Thor and one wouldn't. I know which one I'd pick.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've seen Epting's Thor already. It's still a nice thought, but the mystique isn't quite there given that I've seen it.

[PhotoJones]

Epting's style has changed quite a bit since the last time he drew Thor.

[TheCorpulent1]

Looks pretty similar to his Cap art to me:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.80.gifhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.81.gifhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.82.gif
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.83.gifhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.84.gifhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87389662764.85.gif

[PhotoJones]

Ha! I forgot about the Thor covers. I was thinking about his old Avengers art. Anyway, I like his Thor.

[KangConquers]

Um...one book would have Epting and Perkins drawing Thor and one wouldn't. I know which one I'd pick.

It's looking to climax at issue 33.

[PhotoJones]

What's looking to climax?

[KangConquers]

What's looking to climax?

The current arc.

[PhotoJones]

You mean this new one that just started? Because technically, the death of Cap arc ended last issue.

[KangConquers]

You mean this new one that just started? Because technically, the death of Cap arc ended last issue.

Well, Stark and Bucky will be confronting each other in issue 33.

I'm so pumped.

[PhotoJones]

Hopefully it'll be a good fight. :up:

[KangConquers]

Hopefully it'll be a good fight. :up:

I want to see a good fight, no low blows, no cheap shots, no...

Marvel is promising a shock on par with the end of Cap 25.

Bucky: Tony...
Tony: Wha?
Bucky: I am your grandfather!

[PhotoJones]

They are? Where did you see that?

[KangConquers]

They are? Where did you see that?

Marvel preview page for CA 33.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ha! I forgot about the Thor covers. I was thinking about his old Avengers art. Anyway, I like his Thor.
Me, too. But seeing Thor's reaction to Cap's death anywhere is fine for me. I'll buy just about anything with Thor in it.

[Arkady Rossovich]

It's amusing,there is still a Captain America comic..and the character is "dead".I think Marvel is only using the title for value.

[Anubis]

....

[DoomRulz]

It's amusing,there is still a Captain America comic..and the character is "dead".I think Marvel is only using the title for value.

Just to add on to that...

I wouldn't agree with that last statement, but I agree, it feels weird reading a comic named after a dead character. But that kinda makes it much more interesting...the main character is dead, yet the story still revolves around him.

[Anubis]

Which is why it's still called Captain America.

[TheCorpulent1]

That, plus the fact that we all know he's coming back.
It's amusing,there is still a Captain America comic..and the character is "dead".I think Marvel is only using the title for value.
Don't they use all their comics for value? They publish them to make a profit; thus, the comics are valuable. :confused:

[Darthphere]

Ridiculous.

[Xofenroht]

Which is why it's still called Captain America.

THANK YOU!!!

[Arkady Rossovich]

No..because Captain America will return eventually.I mean..Marvel wont rename the Cap book "Winter Solider".Common sence it will remain Captain America.

[Upset Spideyfan]

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9990/theredskulljokedc8.jpg

My brother/MS paint.

[TheCorpulent1]

Hahaha, where is that from?

[GoldenAgeHero]

do you guys think they're going to replace captian with some other guy?

[Darthphere]

Brubaker seems to be setting that up.

[TheCorpulent1]

do you guys think they're going to replace captian with some other guy?
Temporarily. Steve Rogers will eventually be back, though. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or stupid.

[Darthphere]

Temporarily. Steve Rogers will eventually be back, though. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or stupid.

Or both.

[TheCorpulent1]

Entirely possible.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Brubaker seems to be setting that up.

thats what i'm afraid of, i want someone with the ideals and views stevehad and not some douche. if bru goes for buck i can dig that, but i don't see him wearing the costume.

[Upset Spideyfan]

Hahaha, where is that from?


My brother/MS paint.

[TheCorpulent1]

Your brother's a funny mofo. :)
thats what i'm afraid of, i want someone with the ideals and views stevehad and not some douche. if bru goes for buck i can dig that, but i don't see him wearing the costume.
I doubt Bucky would accept being the new Captain America. He doesn't see himself as worthy.

[Darthphere]

I doubt Bucky would accept being the new Captain America. He doesn't see himself as worthy.

But on the same side, he doesn't want anyone else to be, hence him stealing the shield. So maybe, if he found out from Tony how Cap wanted him to be a good man and all that crap then he would take up the mantle.

[Red]

thats what i'm afraid of, i want someone with the ideals and views stevehad and not some douche. if bru goes for buck i can dig that, but i don't see him wearing the costume.

I can't actually see Bucky wearing any kind of Captain America costume once he takes on the mantle.

[TheCorpulent1]

But on the same side, he doesn't want anyone else to be, hence him stealing the shield. So maybe, if he found out from Tony how Cap wanted him to be a good man and all that crap then he would take up the mantle.
I think he'll confront Tony and Tony'll show him the letter. Bucky'll recognize Cap's handwriting and reluctantly give up the shield, since he would never go against Steve, let alone in his dying wishes.

[Darthphere]

I think he'll confront Tony and Tony'll show him the letter. Bucky'll recognize Cap's handwriting and reluctantly give up the shield, since he would never go against Steve, let alone in his dying wishes.

And Tony would tell him to keep it, that it's what Steve would want and a gay man hug would take place.

[Upset Spideyfan]

With ass grabbing.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Your brother's a funny mofo. :)

I doubt Bucky would accept being the new Captain America. He doesn't see himself as worthy.


then who will take it then? who?!

[TheCorpulent1]

And Tony would tell him to keep it, that it's what Steve would want and a gay man hug would take place.
Tony might try to initiate a gay man-hug, but Bucky would punch him in the stones with his metal arm. After Tony's done coughing up his testicles, Bucky would explain that he's not the man Steve was and he's not worthy. Then he'd step on Tony's disembodied testicles to really drive the point home.

[Upset Spideyfan]

then who will take it then? who?!

Batman.

[Red]

then who will take it then? who?!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/232338~Bill-Cosby-Posters.jpg

[TheCorpulent1]

Keeping the world safe, one Pokeymans at a time. :up:

[Xofenroht]

then who will take it then? who?!

Ned Leeds.

[Anubis]

Sonny Chiba

[DoomJester]

I think we'll need a five part event written by Jeph Loeb to decide who will take the mantle of Captain America. John Cassaday, since he was the best cap artist, will delay another issue of Astonishing X-men to work on this event.

[KangConquers]

Didn't Bru already say that Bucky would not become the new Captain America?

I'm still not convinced Steve is dead for good.

[TheCorpulent1]

That makes you not naive. :up:

[PhotoJones]

We all know Steve will come back at some point. A more interesting question, in my opinion, is when will Nick Fury come out of hiding? And when he does, will it involve Steve's return?

[TheCorpulent1]

I think he's supposed to be returning in Secret Invasion. Whether Steve comes back at the same time, who knows?

[PhotoJones]

Oh, really? I'd like to see Yu take a crack at him. Do you know where you read that?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think I ever did. I think someone else on here said they read it in an interview, and I just took them at their word.

[PhotoJones]

Oh. So, basically it's not going to happen. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

According to preview information, Nick Fury will officially return to the Marvel Universe in the upcoming Secret Invasion storyline, when the heroes of the Marvel Universe must discover who among their number have been replaced by Skrulls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fury

[PhotoJones]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fury

Sweet. :up:

[DoomJester]

You know I read something similar about Fury's return in an IGN interview as well. I can't say that I am looking forward to the "Fury issue" "the return of Nick Fury!" or anything like that though. Not that I have anything against him but I wasn't reading very many comics with him in it so I'm just not that excited. It's kinda like bringing Captain Marvel back-- I read the Return and that's about all I know about him so I can't say I'm chomping at the bit for it.

[PhotoJones]

Nick Fury is the ultimate supporting character or guest star, in my opinion; right up there with Doc Strange.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think Dr. Strange would work really well as the mentor figure to a team of lower-level supernatural characters. Kind of like what he was in that Witches comic a couple years back, only it wouldn't suck.

[PhotoJones]

Strange has no time for teaching. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

I knew "mentor" would cause problems. I couldn't think of a better word for it, though. He's the guy that calls the team together to deal with mystical threats on Earth because he's too busy dealing with mystical threats in other dimensions and stuff. While he's off fighting Dormammu, this team gets to take down Baron Mordo in his latest outing. That sort of thing. It'd be a team of very competent and capable magic badasses who don't need teaching. Strange would just be like Xavier to the adult, all-new, all-different X-Men characters--he's technically in charge, but really the team runs itself and he does his own thing. He'd show up ever once in a while via astral projection or on a stop between dimensions and hang with them or alert them to new threats or whatever.

The team would be characters like the Black Knight, Blade, Devil-Slayer, maybe some of the surviving Darkhold Redeemers, etc.

[Darthphere]

Nick Fury is the most trustworthy character in the marvel Universe. Makes complete sense for him to come back during that storyline.

[PhotoJones]

Nick Fury is the most trustworthy character in the marvel Universe. Makes complete sense for him to come back during that storyline.

Sarcasm? :confused:

[Darthphere]

Only about half.

[PhotoJones]

I'd trust him with my life. I'd expect to be dicked over at some point, but I'd still be alive.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm sure Nick would sacrifice you in a heartbeat. Captain America's probably the only guy he'd go out of his way to preserve. Maybe Dum-Dum Dugan, too.

[Anubis]

I wonder is Wolvie still pissed about him messing with his Brain during Secret War.

[TheCorpulent1]

Who cares? Fury's probably got some Antarctic vibranium tucked away in one of his belt pouches just in case Wolverine tries anything.

[PhotoJones]

I'm sure Nick would sacrifice you in a heartbeat. Captain America's probably the only guy he'd go out of his way to preserve. Maybe Dum-Dum Dugan, too.

Me being a civilian? Hell, no. For someone that prefers to his heroes to refrain from murder, you sure don't have a lot in faith in some of them.

I wonder is Wolvie still pissed about him messing with his Brain during Secret War.

Probably. Logan's good with holding grudges.

[TheCorpulent1]

Me being a civilian? Hell, no. For someone that prefers to his heroes to refrain from murder, you sure don't have a lot in faith in some of them.
1) Marvel's not really been giving me much to have faith in lately, have they?

2) Nick's not really the shiniest of heroes. I'm sure he factors civilian casualties into ops. Anyone working at his level of espionage and counter-terrorism would have to.

[PhotoJones]

1) Marvel's not really been giving me much to have faith in lately, have they?

Sure they have. Guys like Pak and Slott keep the faith.

2) Nick's not really the shiniest of heroes. I'm sure he factors civilian casualties into ops. Anyone working at his level of espionage and counter-terrorism would have to.

You can accept super powers, but you can't accept Nick Fury being not willing to knowingly sacrifice a civilian life?

[TheCorpulent1]

Sure they have. Guys like Pak and Slott keep the faith.
Yeah, there are holdouts, and I appreciate them. The industry as a whole seems to be shifting to a more lenient stance on lethality, though. That's the impression I've gotten from reading a lot of recent comics.
You can accept super powers, but you can't accept Nick Fury being not willing to knowingly sacrifice a civilian life?
Um... yeah? :confused: It's a different style of doing things. Nick's not a superhero. He's never claimed to be a superhero. He's a soldier who became a spy who became a covert ops director. None of those have as strict a stance on nonlethal methods as most superheroes were known to up until recently. It's not about believability--if someone came out and said Nick Fury's ops have never once created a single civilian casualty, I'd say "okay" and accept it. But no one has, and Nick doesn't strike me as the type of guy to demand that absolutely no civilians ever be harmed, ever, even if it's for the greater good.

I'm not saying Nick's going to throw some random civilian in front of a bus for kicks. But if he couldn't accept that some of the decisions he makes are going to lead to civilian casualties, he'd flat-out be a bad SHIELD director because he'd be way too naive. Now, if you're asking whether Nick minimizes civilian casualties as much as possible, my answer would be a wholehearted "yes." I bet SHIELD under Fury had fewer civilian casualties than any other agency that engages in similar ops.

[PhotoJones]

Um... yeah? :confused: It's a different style of doing things. Nick's not a superhero. He's never claimed to be a superhero. He's a soldier who became a spy who became a covert ops director. None of those have as strict a stance on nonlethal methods as most superheroes were known to up until recently. It's not about believability--if someone came out and said Nick Fury's ops have never once created a single civilian casualty, I'd say "okay" and accept it. But no one has, and Nick doesn't strike me as the type of guy to demand that absolutely no civilians ever be harmed, ever, even if it's for the greater good.

I'm not saying Nick's going to throw some random civilian in front of a bus for kicks. But if he couldn't accept that some of the decisions he makes are going to lead to civilian casualties, he'd flat-out be a bad SHIELD director because he'd be way too naive. Now, if you're asking whether Nick minimizes civilian casualties as much as possible, my answer would be a wholehearted "yes." I bet SHIELD under Fury had fewer civilian casualties than any other agency that engages in similar ops.

A lot of people think people are being naive when some of say that the Hulk's never killed anyone. That's how I choose to look at the fictional characters I read about every week. What I'm saying is that Fury would never make a decision with the risk that cilivians could potentially be harmed. Sometimes accidents happen, but those accidents would not have been forseen. Nick's a hero whether he would consider himself to be or not.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think his comic appearances agree with that, but it would be nice if it turns out to be true. To his credit, he does usually go to Captain America for sensitive ops in part because he knows Cap'll get the job done clean and never endanger innocents.

[PhotoJones]

Well, the comic books don't agree that the Hulk's not a killer, but that's not stopping us, is it?

[TheCorpulent1]

The debate over the Hulk was really more about how culpable he is for his killings. He's definitely killed in the comics--what many people took issue with was how often and under what circumstances.

But yeah, for Nick, I can't cite any specific examples of his regarding any innocents as acceptable losses. I just think he would if he absolutely had to.

[PhotoJones]

The debate over the Hulk was really more about how culpable he is for his killings. He's definitely killed in the comics--what many people took issue with was how often and under what circumstances.

No, it's not. Or at least, mine and a lot of other people's side of the debate isn't. I don't think the Hulk has killed anyone. Intentially or unintentially. I like it better that way.

But yeah, for Nick, I can't cite any specific examples of his regarding any innocents as acceptable losses. I just think he would if he absolutely had to.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

[Vanguard07]

Hypothetical scenario:
Red Skull's got the detonator for some sort of anti-black/asian/jew/gay bomb (cause he's the Red skull... thats the sorta crap he does) he's gonna blow it. The hero shows up to stop him and Red Skull takes a hostage as a human shield. There's no time for a standoff.

If that hero is Cap, he'd pull some crazy ridiculous ricochet shot off the walls with his shield that would take Skull out and leave the hostage unharmed.

If the hero is Nick Fury he'd just shoot the Red Skull to death, through the hostage if necessary.

That to me is the difference on the type of hero they both respectively are.


Also in regards to the Bucky= new Captain America thing.

I think Bucky doesnt think he's worthy but he would take up the mantle, costume and shield anyway and do a great job trying to live up to ideals that wouldnt otherwise be his own.

Bucky recognises how important the symbolism of Captain America is and he'd be an excellent Cap. However Caps ideals arent his. Out of costume he'd still be the same sort of Antihero as ever.

[PhotoJones]

If the hero is Nick Fury he'd just shoot the Red Skull to death, through the hostage if necessary.

That's where you're wrong. Or at least, you've got nothing to back that thought up with. Fury has never shown that kind of disregard for civilians ever.

[Vanguard07]

I dont see that as a disregard for civilians at all. The action in question would save millions of civilian lives at the cost of one which is exactly the kind of thinking that Nick Fury displays.

He takes a more realistic approach to heroism is all.

[PhotoJones]

I dont see that as a disregard for civilians at all. The action in question would save millions of civilian lives at the cost of one which is exactly the kind of thinking that Nick Fury displays.

He takes a more realistic approach to heroism is all.

Not only do I disagree with that because Fury wouldn't risk a civilian life like that on principle, but I disagree because it also sells Fury short. He is espionage in the MU. He can think (and has thought) his way out of anything.

[TheCorpulent1]

Geez, I don't think anyone who could be called a hero would kill a hostage to get at the villain. That's not heroic, period.

[PhotoJones]

Exactly. And Fury's a hero. He's saved more lives in his life then most of Marvel's superheroes.

[Kitsune]

Thanks for the info.:up:

There's something to be said for a dominatrix dressed as a nun in tight cloathing:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/SinAging.png

[DoomJester]

Well, I can't pretend to know what will be going on with Secret Invasion but if he comes back when everyone is suspicious of everyone else for being a Skrull, I think people will be doubly suspicious of him. And many of the new kids in the Initiative may not even know who he is. Besides, wouldn't Tony just have him arrested? It's probably too early start speculating but w/e.

[PhotoJones]

And many of the new kids in the Initiative may not even know who he is.

How could people not know who he is?

[TheCorpulent1]

I could see people not knowing who he is, especially teenagers. I didn't follow any sort of political or military news as a teenager. They may have seen his face once or twice during crises, but I doubt they'd know much about him.

[PhotoJones]

I could see people not knowing who he is, especially teenagers. I didn't follow any sort of political or military news as a teenager. They may have seen his face once or twice during crises, but I doubt they'd know much about him.

That's like seeing a portrait of George Washington and not knowng who it is. You just...know. That kind of crap is engrained in you as a child.

[DoomJester]

Actually Photo you are on to something-- Nick Fury comes back and becomes President!

[PhotoJones]

Okay....:confused:

[Kitsune]

Actually Photo you are on to something-- Nick Fury comes back and becomes President!

Who would be vice?

[PhotoJones]

Dum Dum Dugan. Duh. :whatever:

[moraldeficiency]

Fury wouldn't ever, EVER, disregard civilian casualties. It's not in him, he might dick you over, but as was mentioned, you'd come out alive at the end of the day.

Would Fury sacrifice a civilian if it was important enough? I think anyone would. If by killing one innocent you'd save one hundred, Fury wouldn't hesitate except to explore other possibilities. I don't think that makes him less a hero, just able to evaluate the situation and save the most lives. Some heroes might not be able to make the call at all or pick the single life, but to the one hundred dying they wouldn't be a hero at all.

[PhotoJones]

Fury wouldn't ever, EVER, disregard civilian casualties. It's not in him, he might dick you over, but as was mentioned, you'd come out alive at the end of the day.

Would Fury sacrifice a civilian if it was important enough? I think anyone would. If by killing one innocent you'd save one hundred, Fury wouldn't hesitate except to explore other possibilities. I don't think that makes him less a hero, just able to evaluate the situation and save the most lives. Some heroes might not be able to make the call at all or pick the single life, but to the one hundred dying they wouldn't be a hero at all.

Fury would never have to make that choice. He'd find another way out of it. It's comics.

[moraldeficiency]

Fury would never have to make that choice. He'd find another way out of it. It's comics.

I agree, though I was just stating my opinion of a hypothetical situation.

[PhotoJones]

I agree, though I was just stating my opinion of a hypothetical situation.

Hypotheticals r dum. :down

[moraldeficiency]

Hypotheticals r dum. :down

Didn't this start with you guys arguing a hypothetical point of how Fury would treat civilians that might stand in his way during an operations?

[DoomJester]

Didn't this start with you guys arguing a hypothetical point of how Fury would treat civilians that might stand in his way during an operations?

That's what I thought. And hypothetical questions aren't dumb, just moot since as far as I know none of us have creative control over the characters. But it's still interesting to read everyone's opinions.

[DoomRulz]

Did anyone else here shed a tear when you got the picture of Cap on the ground in #25? I know I did. :csad:

[Anubis]

Nope. CNN had already spoiled it for me two days prior to reading it.

[DoomRulz]

Nope. CNN had already spoiled it for me two days prior to reading it.

In all honesty, I never saw the news about Cap's death, I just knew it happened. I dunno, I guess the feeling was still there when I actually got to it.

[Darthphere]

I remember it being on the news and me thinking "****, I need to get to the store immediately."

[PhotoJones]

I remember it being on the news and me thinking "****, I need to get to the store immediately."

That was pretty much my experience. I remember think how I was never going to get a copy.

[hippie_hunter]

I got spoiled by CNN and it pissed me off. And then hearing about the sales, I was afraid I wasn't going to get my copy considering that I recieved Captain America monthly.

I ended up getting both covers :up:

[PhotoJones]

I got both covers, too. Twice, in fact. One set for me, and one set for the poor soul that shelled out $75 on eBay. :up:

[Anubis]

Hah, what a dumb s**t.

[PhotoJones]

There were loads of dumb****s that day.