Is Batman an athiest?

[Nietzsche]

Do you think that Batman is an athiest or at least agnostic?
As he is a master scientist, highly rational and serious and, more importantly, supposed to have a genius IQ, I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can). I was just wondering what you think because in contrast I would imagine that Spider-man and Captain America probably are christians or religious in some way lol. This may not be a relevant or important fact, but then neither are lots of forums in this place. So, just speculate away,
do you imagine Bruce is religious or agnostic or athiest? What would his opinion be of religious people?

[Riven]

I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can).
You of all people should know that God is Dead...

http://www.cancellieri.org/images/nietzsche%202.gif

I'd say Batman is an atheist, yeah. He's too cynical to believe in a god...

[Nietzsche]

Haha, nice one Niven. What a picture. What a guy.

[Phantasm]

No..he does believe in God. He says so in Broken City I think...something along the lines of, "God himself is laughing at me." At least we know he acknowledges His existence.

[Nietzsche]

Well, thats just one interpretation by one writer. I suppose it just comes down to the preferences of the writer and the fans. Well i knew that. So for me, he'll always be an athiest or agnostic.

[lujho]

The DC Universe has aliens, magic, demons, angels, gods and more. And Batman's met most of them in one comic or another. So he couldn't possibly be an atheist or agnostic.

But he can still be non-religious, which is what he seems to be.

[The Demon's Head]

"And I do not pray, for I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.

[Nietzsche]

good good

[batmaluco]

"And I do not pray, for I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.
Yeah! I remember that.

[SatanBurger]

You of all people should know that God is Dead...

http://www.cancellieri.org/images/nietzsche%202.gif



Heh, indeed.

“Wherever there are walls I shall inscribe this eternal accusation against Christianity upon them-I can write in letters which make even the blind see … I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty-I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind …”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche is an entertaining fellow.

Personally I never saw Batman as the type to buy into religion. Too cynical and rational.

[BatmanRules33]

you know, im a christian and this thread seems to be against it in a way, its making me a bit uncomfortable...

[SatanBurger]

you know, im a christian and this thread seems to be against it in a way, its making me a bit uncomfortable...

The most powerful man in the most powerful country is a stuttering, violent christian fundamentalist. If anyone should feel uncomfortable it's those on the other side of your fence.

[Nietzsche]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanRules33
you know, im a christian and this thread seems to be against it in a way, its making me a bit uncomfortable...



didn't mean to offend anyone. I was brought up a christian (well, by my mother) but then I never believed it. But many people who were once christians don't remain so, so people change.

[The Question]

Do you think that Batman is an athiest or at least agnostic?
As he is a master scientist, highly rational and serious and, more importantly, supposed to have a genius IQ, I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can). I was just wondering what you think because in contrast I would imagine that Spider-man and Captain America probably are christians or religious in some way lol. This may not be a relevant or important fact, but then neither are lots of forums in this place. So, just speculate away,
do you imagine Bruce is religious or agnostic or athiest? What would his opinion be of religious people?

I don't think he cares. In his mind, there are serial killers and rapists loose on the streets. He probably feels that he doesn't have time for religion. He's probably just non religious. And the him being a scientist thing wouldn't make him athiest. Many scientists are religious.

[The Crow]

A friend of mine told me about a story where Batman mentions his parents being religous. I think he's stuck between believing what his parents taught him and then seeing to cruelty of what happened to them. I never got to read it though, so I could be wrong.

[The Riddler]

batman doesn't believe in luck either.

[DarkKnightJRK]

He was in the JLA with a f**king ANGEL. He knows there's a God, he just doesn't believe in Him.

[Batty for Bats!]

This thread is making me confused. Is it what we think Batman is or going off info in other literature, Just batman or also adventures with JLA, just gotham or the entire world(him visting Tokoyo and meeting a supreme entity)??
I don't think Batman believes in God. Me being an atheist myself, I can relate alot of stuff with that. Batman has seen his parents die infront of his eyes, where was God he might ask himself since they were very humane people. I think that Batman doesn't believe in anything untangible. If facts prove it to be so, Batman might consider it then.

[Phantasm]

He was in the JLA with a f**king ANGEL. He knows there's a God, he just doesn't believe in Him.

How can he not belive in something if there is LIVING PROOF STANDING RIGHT beside him?I thought Batman was smart... :confused:

[DarkKnightJRK]

How can he not belive in something if there is LIVING PROOF STANDING RIGHT beside him?I thought Batman was smart... :confused:

No, no, you misunderstood. I think I better way to put it is, he knows they exist, he just doesn't have any FAITH in Him.

[Fledermaus]

Someone brought up "Broken City". The line in that whole story was in the beginning,
"Now, lonely hearts and sunday school teachers like to say that rain is the tears of God. But God doesn't bother to cry on Gotham. This rain? If it comes from him...it's not his tears.
This is kinda the attitude one has if they are a beliver in God, but They've lost someone important to them and it leaves you with the feeling that, well God is pissing on you. In my opinion Batman believes in God, he just doesn't like him very much.

[GHollywood]

Him


What if Gods a girl.

[DrSpengler]

I don't get how anyone in the DC universe can NOT believe in God. I mean, there's so much whacked-out, crazy **** in their world; winged space-aliens, guys with magical green energy rings, giant monsters with flaming skulls, mischievous imps, and so on and so on. How can people buy all that stuff staring at them in the face but find the belief in a God so out of the question?

And Batman in particular. He worked in the JLA with a fallen angel, he's fought all sorts of supernatural monsters and what-not. He may not LIKE God, but he certainly has to believe in him.

But, of course, in the DCU apparantly every religion is right and all Gods exist. The Christian God, the Pantheon, The Old Ones, Egyptian Gods, etc. So I guess what you believe in is what you get. And if you're an Athiest then you just stop existing when you die, but if you're a Christian you get to go play frisbee with Barry Allen.

[BatmanRules33]

well, in BR, it seems to me that batman is a christian, remember when he says "merry christmas alfred,and good will toward men..and woman". sounds like he knows his bible stuff.

[Comic Book Boy]

"And I do not pray, for I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.
Well that cracks it.

I agree with whoever wrote that too.

Batman is an athiest.

[Comic Book Boy]

well, in BR, it seems to me that batman is a christian, remember when he says "merry christmas alfred,and good will toward men..and woman". sounds like he knows his bible stuff.
I say "merry christmas"....and im freaking JEWISH!

[Nietzsche]

I say good will to all men and women and mean it but I don't believe i God. In some interpretaions it seems writers wanted him to, in other versions they didn't want him to. So It's up to the individual fan I guess and perhaps thats for the best.

[BatmanRules33]

wow, are most ppl on here athiests??wtf?? everyuones got somethin against christian sayings???

[The Question]

wow, are most ppl on here athiests??wtf?? everyuones got somethin against christian sayings???


Yeah, I noticed that. Mabey it's because alot of people here were considered nerd in highschool, were picked on alot, and became encreasingly bitter until they came to the coclusion that if there was a god, that sort of **** wouldn't happen to them. That's my guess.

[BatmanRules33]

Yeah, I noticed that. Mabey it's because alot of people here were considered nerd in highschool, were picked on alot, and became encreasingly bitter until they came to the coclusion that if there was a god, that sort of **** wouldn't happen to them. That's my guess.

lol, you might be right. i was considered a nerd too, and HATED high school with a blood red passion, but i learned one thing coming out of it: high school has always been full of pricks and that if you arent into rap/punk/goth/ or any other steriotype, then you are labeled an "outcast" but ya see i am more of a christian then most of these kids were and they took my kindness for weakness, and add in the fact i HATE rap, well, i wasnt really liked all that much. i became a loner, and to tell you the truth, i like it. i will say though, high school didnt change my beliefs, just made me feel bad for all thoselost souls who thought they were so high and mighty but once there outta school there gonna have a tough time. thats ussually the case around in my school i hear about.

[DarkKnightJRK]

What if Gods a girl.

If I find out that God is a girl, I'll go, "Heheh, sorry about that." :)

[thehappster]

Do you think that Batman is an athiest or at least agnostic?
As he is a master scientist, highly rational and serious and, more importantly, supposed to have a genius IQ, I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can). I was just wondering what you think because in contrast I would imagine that Spider-man and Captain America probably are christians or religious in some way lol. This may not be a relevant or important fact, but then neither are lots of forums in this place. So, just speculate away,
do you imagine Bruce is religious or agnostic or athiest? What would his opinion be of religious people?

Nietzsche - first of all, you are insinuating (in that Batman is a genius rational and such, and thereby can't believe in God), those that do believe in God are, well, idiots and irrational.

In that none of us can can prove his existence - how much proof do you need? The Bible has never been dis-proven. In fact, more and more evidence supports it's legitimacy.

I could cite many examples of "scientists" etc that have come to know Jesus because in trying to prove him as fiction, they couldn't, and had to come to the realization of the truth.

Obviously, Batman, nor many of the other super-heroes, are written to acknowledge God nor religion unless it forwards their character development (as evidenced in previous posts).

BTW - first post. I apologize if it's not pretty.

[Phantasm]

I agree completley with thehappster.:)
And I can't help but thibk that someone like Batman does believe in God...He spends an awful alot of time in grave yards and stuff...which have crosses and statues of angels all over them...that's a pretty religious atmosphere, fro christians I mean.

[thehappster]

well, in BR, it seems to me that batman is a christian, remember when he says "merry christmas alfred,and good will toward men..and woman". sounds like he knows his bible stuff.

not to argue the other side...
but, where in the bible does it say anything about christmas or good will toward men? Christmas is obviously based on the birth of Christ, as presented in the Gospels, but that saying is a popular cultural phrase, it's not really based on biblical sayings. Like another poster admits, (because of the commercialization of Christmas) members of any faith (or lack of) may recite that phrase.

[Spidey-Bat]

Batman is a scientologist:joker:

[The Overlord]

The evidence is contradictory, some writers portray Batman as a Christian, others have portrayed him as a atheist. Whether Batman believes in God or not depends on the writer.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=thehappster]Nietzsche - first of all, you are insinuating (in that Batman is a genius rational and such, and thereby can't believe in God), those that do believe in God are, well, idiots and irrational.

In that none of us can can prove his existence - how much proof do you need? The Bible has never been dis-proven. In fact, more and more evidence supports it's legitimacy.

I could cite many examples of "scientists" etc that have come to know Jesus because in trying to prove him as fiction, they couldn't, and had to come to the realization of the truth.

Obviously, Batman, nor many of the other super-heroes, are written to acknowledge God nor religion unless it forwards their character development (as evidenced in previous posts).



Im sorry if I offended anyone and can see that certain things I implied sound immature. I personally just find it irrational to believe in God. For me there is no difference between believing in God or Father Christmas. God can't be proven. God cannot be disproven. Im not a complete athiest for the fact that I don't know. I do believe Jesus existed, but I imagine he was probably some kind of freedom fighter mabe or rebel. No one can deny the fact that stories get twisted. And also, we don't know what literature and culture was really like at the time Jesus was supposed to be alive, so what appears in the bible may have had different meanings back then, as well as being exaggerated. I love the idea behind Christianity (love evryone as your neighbour etc) and agree (emotionally at least) with many of it's messages.

However, because we can't prove or disprove God either way, I think people should just say "I don't know. Mabe I'll find out when I'm dead".

Going off the topic, I do which that certain christians wouldn't hold quite so selfish and dogmatic beliefs, such as certain catholics (because catholic preists in Kenya are encouraging the poor people there not to use condoms (because it's not what God wants supposedly) and thus the aids crisis is not being helped).

So I apologise to any christoians I may have offended, but I didn't mean too. Yes, there have been geniuses who have believed in God such as Einstein, however funnily enough Einstein created a theory which actually meant that God couldn't exist for this theory to work. Im not sure how, but in some way, in his own way, he disproved God and he spent the rest of his life trying to disprove his own theory because he couldn't stand the idea of God not existing.

Anyway, I simply woundered what others thought. In some interpretations Batman is a christian, in others not it would seem. I think thats good- I like different versions.

Lastly, there is nothing to say the bible is true and I would like to state my personal belief that there is no such thing as truth (although naturally I can't prove it!), at least not in the way we think of it. For anyone who is interested in the idea that there is no such thing as truth, go read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Friedrich Nietzsche, thats the closest thing to a bible I have.

[thehappster]

Warning: Off-topic

Nietzche - I can't speak for others, but no offense taken on my part. I respect that you are a self-thinker and remain calm. So often in forums, talking faith means "Flame on", as Torch would say.

What I find is irrational is to think that by chance the world, heck the universe, is the way that it is today - that by chance humanity grew out of a cess pool with symmetric parts, that by chance I am alive and that I really don't have any purpose.

I respectfully disagree that God cannot be proven. I believe the bible can be proven, that Jesus can be proven, and thus that God can be proven. I also disagree that we do not know or understand was Biblical times were like.

You're obviously familiar with Nietzche (admittedly more than I), and you say that Jesus was real. Are you familiar with the argument that Jesus had to be one of three things - a liar, a lunatic, or the real thing? Pick one, I can help you verify or deny your claim.

Ask yourself this - If I find out when I'm dead about God, what if I'm wrong? If I chose to not follow Jesus now, and I die, the Bible says that I will not be sharing heaven with him. What if I'm wrong and Jesus was right? Do I want to spend eternity somewhere other than heaven?

How can there be no such thing as truth? So, 2+2=4 is not true? There has to be only one truth. Think about this, if you had been standing in line for, let's say, a concert ticket for 2 hours. I walk right up and butt in front of you because that is what is morally true to me, is that okay? I can't give you a bowl of water and tell you that it's clam chowder, because I find that to be true. There only has to be one truth.

Again, I am admitting that I'm lacking in Einstein's biography and theory. I will check it out though. I will also check out Nietzche's book. And I hope that I can offer you one to check out... try Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

(I hope I make some semblance of sense. I'm trying to collect many thoughts into a small space. I apologize if it seems flighty.)

[SatanBurger]

I'd like to take a moment to mock whoever blamed atheism on highschool alienation. If you're honestly willing to put forth such a cartoonish, insulting claim, you're either incredibly sheltered or incredibly stupid. The fact that an alarming number of Christians I consider myself close to have subscribed to similarly barbaric, black and white blanket assaults makes me wonder if putting your faith in such an outdated religion does more damage than it does "healing".

Think before you type, people. Please.

[TheIntellectual]

IMO, Batman has been and always WILL be an agnostic. Some people like to go with the "believing in the unproven is irrational" argument while others go with the "I believe in God because it comforts me to have that confidence". To say that Christians are irrational is unbeilevably ignorant; some of the most confident people i have ever met in my life are religious.

Anyhoo, I think Batman is an agnostic just because he is so fiercely independent and his faith died when his parents laid in his arms covered in blood. More to the point, in DKR (yes, its an elseworlds but it is undeniably true to the character) Batman states that "Life only makes sense when YOU force it to". Translation: Whether there's a god or not is beside the point; our fate is in our hands.

Which incedentally is what Nietzsche believed. People who say "Nietzsche was a meanie atheist" REALLY need to pick up a copy of Beyond Good and Evil.

For more on this topic, check out Scott Adam's God's Debris available on amazon.com. It's a great headspinner on the notions of faith, fate, and god.

[Comic Book Boy]

Yeah, I noticed that. Mabey it's because alot of people here were considered nerd in highschool, were picked on alot, and became encreasingly bitter until they came to the coclusion that if there was a god, that sort of **** wouldn't happen to them. That's my guess.
That's stupid.

[The Kid]

I SWEAR TO GOD!!

SWEAR TO ME!!!!

Does that answer your question?

Moving on...

[Nietzsche]

But nietzsche was very much against religion. He couldn't prove that God din't exist, simply because nothing can be proven. And 2+2= 4 only within our system of logic. Our system of logic is man amde and doesn't exist without us, Nietzsche asked such questions as "but what is 2+2=4 actually worth? Does it actrually relate to the universe? NO". Nietzsche believed also that science was only an interpretation of the world, so thats no more turthful than religion. Science helps us, he wudn't deny that, to live and stuff, but it only tells us things in a certain way, not the actual truth, not the universe in itself.

One of Nietzsche's main themes is the bewitchment of language. Language is a man made thing which is grounded by rules. thoughts can not be properly expressed through language and when things are put into words they become fixed.

Nietzsche doesn't like Sciecne because it fixes the univerese with itself. He sees the universe as random and chaotic and we try to explain oit away with science through language. Religon is also like this, but more to the point he sees it as a "suicide of reason", not that he believes reason itself is true.

He also believes that religion (more so in his day it was like this) a self tortuing thing to follow. It goes against man's natural desires and hinder man. For example, he sited three "symptoms" found in religiously neurotic people. 1. they are sexually abstinate. 2. they live in solitude 3. they fast. all these things go against human nature and what makes one healthy and happy. Im well awhere, btw, that most of u christians don't fast, live soltidue or have any less sex or any less partners than most people, but in nietzsche's time that was more common and is certainly promoted in certain parts of bible.

Most importantly, for todays world especially, he religon is used to engourage mediocrity and dumb people down and hinder those who seek to rise above. Christianity prasies the meek and seems to make all healthy, happy, confident people who seek to achieve something evil.

It makes the poor, the down hearted, the ill etc rest content, believing that paradies awaits them after death.

I was gonna go on to talk about Nietzsche's thoeyr of the Ubermensch but it's late and I can't be arsed and also I just look like I have my head up my arse.

Obviously I can't explain this as well as if you read the book yourselves, of course I have read it many times and talked to an actual philsoopher about it so may understand it better than you will on first read. But if your interested, just type look up Nietzsche on the web, find out his basic ideas to guide you and then read one of his books. "Beyond Good and Evil" is imp the best one to start with.

Anyway, I do not dislike Christians and I don't think I'm a better person than any they are (except for mabe Bush), I just wanna get that straight. I do not seek to offend. This thread became interesting and it was nice to hear people's views.

I will admit that i need to read more opf the bible myself, to get more facts from it- although I must say I don't find it very enjoyable and it is VERY open to interpretation (like Nietzsche at first glance). Anyway, BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL BY FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE and then THUS SPOKE ZARATHRUSTRA. good reading.

I did once half believe in God, but realised that i was fantasising. I wanted to believe but I also wanted to belive in father christmas. Once you become an agnostic or athiest through thinking and reasoning, if thats necessary, you don't go back. Not for me at least. I dare say Nietzsche has the potential to change christians to agnostics if properly understood, but them mabe not.

Probably no one is reading this anyway. Anyway, I don't care what people believe as long as they don't want to kill me or anyone else, not because that would be wrong (because morality doesn't exist), but because, whether by nature or nuture, I love people as brothers and don't want harm to come to anyone (how very unNietzschien of me!).

[Nietzsche]

Also, if God is all loving then he will not deny my entrance to heaven because I did not believe in him (afterall, i tried to belive and just couldn't. mentally impossible for me). So if he's ALL LOVING he should be ok with that. But of he really is all loving and all forgiving then hell won't exist anyway.

If the bible states that non-believers go to hell, then that is a kind of mental black mail, though of course some people, myself included, won't believe it and won't be blackmailed by it.

[Till_the_End]

I don't think Batman thinks a lot about God. Why should he? It doesn't really matter to him, it's not like he's fighting besides him in the dark streets of Gotham.

And just because you use the Bible or God as a reference or as a symbol, doesn't nessesarily mean you belive in God.

[Henry Hill]

Like others have said, it depends on which writer is writing him. I like to think of him as an atheist or at least someone who has lost hope in god. Not because I was a nerd in high school (haven't even reached high school) but because he comes across as a very bitter person and he seems to be a very scientific person and it would be a little bit of a contradiction if he did decide to believe in a religion. Either way, I think it's much better to not even bring up religion in Batman books just like it's much better to not talk about if he's a democrat or republican. It's not revelant to the stories and there will always be some overlyattached idiots that will throw a tantrum because a FICTIONAL character does not have their same beliefs.

[dude love]

He proboaly accepts that there is a god. But he's preoccupied with his war on crime to ever trully think about it. If anything, if he did follow a religion once he's too bitter about his parents to do so anymore.

[batmaluco]

I SWEAR TO GOD!!

SWEAR TO ME!!!!

Does that answer your question?

Moving on...
Yes. That's it.
It's a bit off topic but I saw Batman quoting Nietzsche on TAS.
Nietzsche and Batman are my favorites reading sources. And some of my Nietzsche reading friends are not batman fans (they don't know what they are missing) and vice-versa. It's nice to see a thread with both, although religious issues are always irreducible and because there are faith involved, irrefutable.
I'm not atheist, nor religious, not even agnostic.
But I believe in life.
About Batman I agree with others when they say it depends on which writer is writing him. There are so many different depictions...

[Spidey-Bat]

It's a bit off topic but I saw Batman quoting Nietzsche on TAS.


do you remember some?

[batmaluco]

do you remember some?
It would be hard to me to do this translation. I'm from Brazil and saw TAS in portuguese so this translating would probably sound very bad but its that one when Nietzsche says that "when you get used to look at the abyss, the abyss starts to look at you also".
Hope it helps. :)
I think it fits Batman very well.

[batmaluco]

And I don't know if I remember correctly but i think he quoted this one too: "There are not facts, just interpretations".
One thing that Nolan would undoubtedly agree, Memento is very much about it.

[Conjob2008]

Do you think that Batman is an athiest or at least agnostic?
As he is a master scientist, highly rational and serious and, more importantly, supposed to have a genius IQ, I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can). I was just wondering what you think because in contrast I would imagine that Spider-man and Captain America probably are christians or religious in some way lol. This may not be a relevant or important fact, but then neither are lots of forums in this place. So, just speculate away,
do you imagine Bruce is religious or agnostic or athiest? What would his opinion be of religious people?Is the Pope Catholic? (He's German,though)

[Infinity9999x]

The most powerful man in the most powerful country is a stuttering, violent christian fundamentalist. If anyone should feel uncomfortable it's those on the other side of your fence.

I am a Christian but liberal, and why should Christians feel uncomfortable for the messups of one man? I don't feel uncomfortable because I do not support him, though I doubt my religious views would agree much with his.

[Infinity9999x]

Is the Pope Catholic? (He's German,though)

your joking right?

[Spidey-Bat]

Is the Pope Catholic? (He's German,though)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

The Pope is the Catholic Bishop and patriarch of Rome, and head of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches.

[thehappster]

Nietzche - I clearly need to do some more research on Nietzche before answering your explanations of his theories. Perhaps it is just beyond my mental capacity to understand how nothing can be proven.

I don't necessarily agree that religion, Christianity anyway, suppresses us to be less than we can be - on the contrary. Christians may define success differently though. Monetary wealth is not important. Why should it be? Christians are encouraged to use all their gifts to their fullest potential.

Thinking and reasoning...
When I was a child, I went to church blind, I believed in God because my parents told me to, I didn't question. When I became older, I learned to question and wanted proof about Christianity. I consider myself a person to follow logic, and I had to make sure that my faith followed logic. I did some research. The FACTS around the Resurrections and the Creation gave me what I needed. I used Thinking and Reasoning.

If God allowed all people to come into heaven, yes that's encouraging. But what would be discouraging would be that that would mean that there is no... repercussion, no accountability. No matter how someone lives, they are treated the same in the afterlife? What about the holocaust, the Nazis, Hitler? Think about the most evil person you can in history, maybe it's me, I don't know. It's a very discouraging thought to think that I'm going to see that person again in Heaven, that they are going to get the same rewards that I'm going to get. If there is no Hell, what is the difference how I live my life. I might come stab you to death out of spite, what difference does it make? Also, in order to be forgiven, you have to ask for forgiveness.

Getting back on topic...
In the DC Universe, I think that all characters at least have to acknowledge the existence of any and all gods. Some characters are descendants of or given powers by Greek gods, there are demons in the DCU, there are angels, there are aliens, and also just plain wierdos. They may not worship any particular god, but they have to at least acknowledge their existence. Now, if I were writing the Who's Who entry on Batman, I would think that he acknowledges the existence of God but refuses to give him any recognition (if that makes sense) because he's so mind-bent on one thing.

[Infinity9999x]

in response to happsters comment about god letting everyone into heaven, I'm in the belief of a heaven and a hell, but I do not believe God condemns people. I believe that if people have lived bad lives when they do die and face god, they do not want to accept that they lived wrongly, and instead push god away, even though God still loves them. A theory C. S. Lewis first came up with in his book the Great Divorce. I've never read the book but I kno of its idea.

--just my ideas.

[DarkKnightJRK]

Getting back on topic...
In the DC Universe, I think that all characters at least have to acknowledge the existence of any and all gods. Some characters are descendants of or given powers by Greek gods, there are demons in the DCU, there are angels, there are aliens, and also just plain wierdos. They may not worship any particular god, but they have to at least acknowledge their existence. Now, if I were writing the Who's Who entry on Batman, I would think that he acknowledges the existence of God but refuses to give him any recognition (if that makes sense) because he's so mind-bent on one thing.

That's true. I mean, he was in the same group (JLA) with a frickin' ANGEL. He knows that God exists, he just doesn't have faith in him/her/it/she-male/whatever.

[Nietzsche]

not every incarnation of batman must acknowledge that stupid azriel character though. what a stupid idea. a crime fighting angel. honestly.

[BatmanRules33]

i do agree with the fact that i think batman believes inGod (the christian God) but doesnt really worship him cuz hes so mind bent on crimefighting. but he does acknoledge him.

[Comic Book Boy]

i do agree with the fact that i think batman believes inGod (the christian God) but doesnt really worship him cuz hes so mind bent on crimefighting. but he does acknoledge him.
I havent seen anything that leads him to believing in a Christian god....

I think MOST incarnations have him as an Athiest. (as it should be IMO)

[EverlovingThing]

I havent seen anything that leads him to believing in a Christian god....

I think MOST incarnations have him as an Athiest. (as it should be IMO)no your stupid and wrong, batman is not an Athiest!

[EverlovingThing]

i do agree with the fact that i think batman believes inGod (the christian God) but doesnt really worship him cuz hes so mind bent on crimefighting. but he does acknoledge him.i agree batman Rules he worships the christian god

[EverlovingThing]

You of all people should know that God is Dead...

http://www.cancellieri.org/images/nietzsche%202.gif

I'd say Batman is an atheist, yeah. He's too cynical to believe in a god...your an idiot riven batman believes in God!

[War Lord]

Although DC has never had batman officially take a postion, I personally believe that Batman does believe in God, but is mighty pissed at Him for letting his parents die.

[The Demon's Head]

your an idiot riven batman believes in God!
So, Riven is an idiot and Comic Book Boy is stupid and wrong? :rolleyes: What a convincing argument.

"And I do not pray, For I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.

*Cough* Spiderfreddie *Cough*

[EverlovingThing]

So, Riven is an idiot and Comic Book Boy is stupid and wrong? :rolleyes: What a convincing argument.

"And I do not pray, For I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.

*Cough* Spiderfreddie *Cough* (cough) bullcrap(cough) arkham asylum is notreal continuity(bullcrap)

[DarkKnightJRK]

not every incarnation of batman must acknowledge that stupid azriel character though. what a stupid idea. a crime fighting angel. honestly.

You got the characters mixed up. ZAUREL was the crime-fighting angel. Azrael was a former cult assassin who tried to take over as Batman after Bane broke his back.

[Nietzsche]

Ah i see, thank you.

[Wise]

There should be an issue with Batman giving off the best line from Pitch Black.

"I absolutely believe in god and I absoulutely hate the mother *%#@er"

Bruce has seen more hate and suffering in the world than almost any other human being. If there is a god in the DC universe (Which it is pointed out that there is) I don't believe Bruce would like him very much.

Personally I believe in "God", but don't follow any of the arcane organised religions. I simply achknowledge that something created the universe and that something is probably sentient. That's about the only thought I put into the matter. Man isn't suppossed to know what God is or if he exists. Too much of time and effort is wasted on worshipping god that should be used to solve the problems of here and now. The mere estate of Vatican City is worth 50 billion. That money could end world hunger. Instead it's used pointlessly.

Batman isn't an atheist but he also doesn't follow any religion.

[AnavelGato86]

Diest I imagine. Popular following during the age of reason and considered the fourth ism (theism, atheism, agnostism, deism)

BASICALLY, God creates, then abandons. Miracles and divine intervention do not exist. God only interveins occasionally when the world becomes too askew and just tinkers, then steps back again and watches his creation.

This is also reffered to as the clockwork god. I think if Bruce did believe in anything, he would probably be a deist.

[snazzy J]

In the DC universe, I'm sure Batman acknowledges the confirmed existence of god, but probably doesn't worship him. If Batman lived in our world, though, I'd definitely go for atheist.

[theBat-Man]

Spiritual, not religious.
Batman #541 "The Spectre of Vengeance Part Two: Mask of Guilt"
Batman asks the Spectre: "You spoke to Tony Sparks...in hell?"
Spectre: "In a place within the souls of the dead which passes for hell, yes."
Batman: "Then there's a heaven too?"
Spectre: "I have seen such a place...but whether in reality or illusion, I know not."
Batman: "But it...seemed real?"
Spectre: "I would not have thought YOU needed the crutch of such a promise."
Batman: "Not me. There were two people I...once knew. And cared about. They...were murdered."
Spectre: "And you wish to know if they are at peace in heaven."
Batman: "Yes. Their names were--"
Spectre: "Preserve your mind and soul where they belong, mortal--in the misted struggle between doubt and faith."
Batman: "But if you know--"
Spectre: "What I know is not yours to know. Besides, I am far more familiar with the denizens of hell...then the geography of heaven."
***
Batman #544 "Major Arcana"
Batman: "Joker is dabbling in actual demonology...making a study of the black arts."
Alfred: "Surely there are no real demons, are there?"
Batman: "I'm afraid there are, Alfred...or at least entities which might as well be demons."
***
Batman #552 "The Greatest Evil"
Batman: "What? Balls of light drifting through the cave...some sort of geomagnetic anomaly...the phenomenon known as "earthlights"? Or something else? Something more? Perhaps even...a sign?"
Vasper: "Hello?"
Batman: "Vasper?"
Vasper: "Yes, Bruce?"
Batman: "I think...no, I'm certain.."
Vasper: "Certain about what, Bruce?"
Batman: "I...I love you."

[raybia]

Well I know for fact that after a little talk from Rachel, Batman is now a Scientologist! :D

[raybia]

i agree batman Rules he worships the christian god

Thats too bad, I hoped he would worship the one true GOD of the Christians, Muslims and Jews and every other religion, of the believers and the disbelievers, and of all of Creation.

[Phantasm]

Spiritual, not religious.
Batman #541 "The Spectre of Vengeance Part Two: Mask of Guilt"
Batman asks the Spectre: "You spoke to Tony Sparks...in hell?"
Spectre: "In a place within the souls of the dead which passes for hell, yes."
Batman: "Then there's a heaven too?"
Spectre: "I have seen such a place...but whether in reality or illusion, I know not."
Batman: "But it...seemed real?"
Spectre: "I would not have thought YOU needed the crutch of such a promise."
Batman: "Not me. There were two people I...once knew. And cared about. They...were murdered."
Spectre: "And you wish to know if they are at peace in heaven."
Batman: "Yes. Their names were--"
Spectre: "Preserve your mind and soul where they belong, mortal--in the misted struggle between doubt and faith."
Batman: "But if you know--"
Spectre: "What I know is not yours to know. Besides, I am far more familiar with the denizens of hell...then the geography of heaven."
b]

Wow.That is really touching...Where is this from again?And can you explain the specifics?

[theBat-Man]

Wow.That is really touching...Where is this from again?And can you explain the specifics?

Batman #541 (written by Doug Moench). Highly recommended.
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/07206180254.541.GIF
Atmospheric Gothic horror art by Kelley Jones.

[The Batman]

I'm sorry...but when you used to roll with a goddamn angel, and have come into contact known as the wrath of GOD, there's no way you can be an athiest

[The Chairman]

I don' think so. In Batman Returns and in the cartoon, he celebrates Christmas.

[AnavelGato86]

"And I do not pray, for I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.


Thats the same one where he just randomly takes a shard of glass and puts it through his hand. Yeaaaaahhhhhh

"Sometimes I cut myself to relieve the pain! Tee hee!"

[Timstuff]

Wether Batman is athiest or a believer depends entirely on the writer.

[DarkKnightJRK]

Thats the same one where he just randomly takes a shard of glass and puts it through his hand. Yeaaaaahhhhhh

"Sometimes I cut myself to relieve the pain! Tee hee!"

...Man, you completely and utterly missed the point of that.

The Asylum was starting to mess with his mind, he was using that to keep his head in reality, kind-of like the mentality of "I'll make the pain go away by causing myself even more pain."

[War Lord]

I don' think so. In Batman Returns and in the cartoon, he celebrates Christmas.

Who doesn't like presents?

[DarkKnightJRK]

Who doesn't like presents?

Indeed, when it comes to people who are non-religious, Christmas is essentially the default winter holiday.

[Darko]

I thought Batman was a catholic priest......;):o

*hintelseworldshint*

[Spidey-Bat]

Who doesn't like presents?

Scrooge:o

[AnavelGato86]

...Man, you completely and utterly missed the point of that.

The Asylum was starting to mess with his mind, he was using that to keep his head in reality, kind-of like the mentality of "I'll make the pain go away by causing myself even more pain."

Nono I got the point. I just still choose to make fun of it.


Knew a guy who put a nail through his hand to freak some people out, laughed my ass off when it got infected.


"cant be too carefully with all those weirdos around!"

[War Lord]

Scrooge:o

Sure he does. He just doesn't like the, "It's better to give than receive" clause.

[DarkKnightJRK]

Nono I got the point. I just still choose to make fun of it.


Knew a guy who put a nail through his hand to freak some people out, laughed my ass off when it got infected.


"cant be too carefully with all those weirdos around!"

I hear ya, parody's the most sincere form of flattery. :o

[Comic Book Boy]

I don' think so. In Batman Returns and in the cartoon, he celebrates Christmas.
...Everyone celebrates Christmas.

I'm freakin Jewish and I celebrate it.

And many athiests do too.

[Comic Book Boy]

Wether Batman is athiest or a believer depends entirely on the writer.
I think we ALL can agree upon this, however....


I think the very concept of Batman is athieistic in nature.

[hippie_hunter]

I think we ALL can agree upon this, however....


I think the very concept of Batman is athieistic in nature.

Batman is definetly not an athiest. Hawkman, Wonder Woman, Jim Corrigan, Hal Jordan, the Spectre, and Zauriel are definete proof that God, the Greek/Roman gods, and the Egyptian gods do exist in the DCAU. And Batman's met all of them. Batman just doesn't worship a god. Stop thinking that Batman's beleives in your beleifs :o

[hippie_hunter]

I havent seen anything that leads him to believing in a Christian god....


I think MOST incarnations have him as an Athiest. (as it should be IMO)[/QUOTE]
Yes because fighting alongside an angel from Heaven (Zauriel), the champion of the Greek gods (Wonder Woman), punching a man who is entwined with Egyptian mythology (Hawkman), seeing the Spirit of God's Vengance (the Spectre/Jim Corrigan), and hating the Spirit of God's Vengance and Redemption (the Spectre/Hal Jordan) is definete proof that he does not beleive in the Christain God or even being an athiest

[titan101]

"good job,bruce.you've really put the FEAR OF GOD into them."-bruce wayne to himself in batman:year one.

[The Question]

Putting the fear of God into someone is a rather common phrase. It's like saying Jesus Christ.

[spencer6891]

And if I were an athiest, I wouldn't say those phrases.


Unless I was a hypocrite.

[Kritish]

Thats the same one where he just randomly takes a shard of glass and puts it through his hand. Yeaaaaahhhhhh

"Sometimes I cut myself to relieve the pain! Tee hee!"

That was the closest that Batman had got to breaking mentally.

It helped keep his sanity.

"And I do not pray, For I have no God"

He's an atheist

[Nightwing1977]

I don't know why some make big deals out of Batman being athiest or not. I'm Christian & it no big deal on what ficitional characters's beliefs are. Heck, Wolverine is my fav. X-Man & he is athiest. But I thought Batman might be sorta religious. I mean in his origin story from his app. (I think), it show him praying after his parents were kill on his bed that he swear he will fight crime. It the same one that on the comic section on Batman Begins official site. At least that how I view it. *shrugs*

[lespaul59]

Why does it matter enuff to flame, argue or whatever about it? I would say he has what you might call the Constantine mind set he knows he's there but has his problems with the guy. I hope you get my meaning.

[DeGenerate10]

What if Gods a girl.

In the bible isn't God always referred to as a male? But who knows.

[SatanBurger]

And if I were an athiest, I wouldn't say those phrases.


Unless I was a hypocrite.

Don't kid yourself. Phrases like "fear of God" and "Oh, Jesus Christ" are ingrained in our heads from the time we're exposed to any sort of mainstream American media. It's cultural, not religious. I can tell someone to "go to Hell" without actually condemning them to an eternity of torment, and it doesn't make me a hypocrite. It makes me a product of my society.

Ever celebrated Halloween? Do you have any idea what it actually celebrates? Do you even care? Or did you just like the candy and the scary costumes?

[spencer6891]

Don't kid yourself. Phrases like "fear of God" and "Oh, Jesus Christ" are ingrained in our heads from the time we're exposed to any sort of mainstream American media. It's cultural, not religious. I can tell someone to "go to Hell" without actually condemning them to an eternity of torment, and it doesn't make me a hypocrite. It makes me a product of my society.

Strange mentality you have there, bub. I don't know about you, but I CHOOSE what I say and do not say, do and do not do. If one is so weak-minded as to bend to the influences and pressures of society, then I pitty him. I am a Christian; therefore, I choose not to say things like "Oh my God" or "God damn", despite the prevalence of those phrases in society. Why? Because I'm not a hypocrite. Likewise, if you profess to believe there is no god, it is hypocritical of you to envoke his name. Justify it all you want.

Ever celebrated Halloween? Do you have any idea what it actually celebrates? Do you even care? Or did you just like the candy and the scary costumes?

Of course I know what Hallowwen means, and chances are, I know more about than you (had to do a paper on it for one of my college classes). I did celebrate it. Before I grew up and became a Christian. :)

[SatanBurger]

Strange mentality you have there, bub. I don't know about you, but I CHOOSE what I say and do not say, do and do not do. If one is so weak-minded as to bend to the influences and pressures of society, then I pitty him. I am a Christian; therefore, I choose not to say things like "Oh my God" or "God damn", despite the prevalence of those phrases in society. Why? Because I'm not a hypocrite. Likewise, if you profess to believe there is no god, it is hypocritical of you to envoke his name. Justify it all you want.

Wrong. The word "God", regardless of what your dellusions have led you to believe, has become cultural property. When I say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse", I don't literally mean I could eat a horse. It's a default statement. Much like invoking "the lord's name". It's default. There's nothing profound or hypocritical about it. "God" is a general term used for maximum effect. But then, I'm sure you transcend the baggage that comes along with living in a culturally distinct society. One day you'll have to enlighten us all as to how it feels to be perfect and totally non-hypocritical, and how you managed to avoid using profanity in all your pre-Christian life.

And don't accuse me to bending to the pressures of society, tool. Go back to believing in global floods and men living with dinosaurs while I go back to living under pretenses that haven't been completely crushed into the ground by modern logic.

[Superhobo]

Where's that picture of a priest getting smacked with a Nietzche book when you need it...

[The Question]

Wrong. The word "God", regardless of what your dellusions have led you to believe, has become cultural property. When I say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse", I don't literally mean I could eat a horse. It's a default statement. Much like invoking "the lord's name". It's default. There's nothing profound or hypocritical about it. "God" is a general term used for maximum effect. But then, I'm sure you transcend the baggage that comes along with living in a culturally distinct society. One day you'll have to enlighten us all as to how it feels to be perfect and totally non-hypocritical, and how you managed to avoid using profanity in all your pre-Christian life.

And don't accuse me to bending to the pressures of society, tool. Go back to believing in global floods and men living with dinosaurs while I go back to living under pretenses that haven't been completely crushed into the ground by modern logic.


Dude, no need to be so harsh. Just because he's christian doesn't mean he's one of those fundamentalists who beleives everything in the bible is 100% fact.

[thehappster]

spencer6891 - Like you, I am Christian. And, like you, I try to refrain from using phrases like "Oh my God!" or taking the Lord's name in vain, or other forms of popular expression that have come to downgrade the significance of the phrases. But, that's partly SatanBurger's point. You and I are conscience of what we are saying, and try with our humanity to restrict ourselves. Atheists - what's to stop them? These phrases have become culturally acceptable. Just like I shouldn't be insulted when people openly say the "F" word in front of my 7 or 4 year olds. That's just society now. It has no meaning to them, it's just words.

Look at Christmas. It's significance is religious. How many non-religious people celebrate Christmas? A Lot! To a non-religious person, it makes no difference of the meaning. You can't expect non-Christians to not be "hypocritical". I'm not saying it's right, but it's truth.

[spencer6891]

Wrong. The word "God", regardless of what your dellusions have led you to believe, has become cultural property. When I say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse", I don't literally mean I could eat a horse. It's a default statement. Much like invoking "the lord's name". It's default. There's nothing profound or hypocritical about it. "God" is a general term used for maximum effect.

As I said, justify it all you want. It doesn't change the fact that humans are creatures of choice. Therefore, if one of these "cultural properties" goes against our moral code, we have the choice not to say/do it.

But then, I'm sure you transcend the baggage that comes along with living in a culturally distinct society.

No, I just live my life on my own terms, not society's. It's simple, really. Well, maybe not for an athiest. :)

One day you'll have to enlighten us all as to how it feels to be perfect and totally non-hypocritical, and how you managed to avoid using profanity in all your pre-Christian life.

1. I never said I was perfect and/or non-hypocritical.
2. I never said I avoided using profanity in all my pre-Christian life (although, truthfully, I always tried to avoid using God's name in vein...but, I know that's probably hard for you to believe. Why, it's preposterous!).
3. This discussion has nothing to do with me, so your "points" are moot anyway.

And don't accuse me to bending to the pressures of society, tool. Go back to believing in global floods and men living with dinosaurs while I go back to living under pretenses that haven't been completely crushed into the ground by modern logic.

:rolleyes: Ah, when all else fails, break out the ad hominem attacks. Really helps your argument. I hope it isn't an indication of your intellect.

[Morg]

Please don't attack other people beliefs. Debate about Batman religion or lack of it but not others users's beliefs.

Thanks

[The Question]

........this thread's been dead for months. Why bring it back now?

[Superman Prime]

When all is said and done, I think Batman is an apatheist. He doesn't accept dogma, believes in God, but doesn't necessarily care either way. Batman feels his only obligation is to protect Gotham city... and that is it. He doesn't fundamentally care if he goes to heaven or hell.

[Qoèlet]

Alfred: "Surely there are no real demons, are there?"
Batman: "I'm afraid there are, Alfred...or at least entities which might as well be demons."

As Batman qualifies that statement, he says something logically important to the argument that "Batman must believe in God because he has met gods and angels". One needs to qualify this by saying that Batman has met things that claim to be gods and angels and seem to have the power to back it up. Batman is also familiar with the Green Lantern Corps and with Superman and a legion of other entities with powers that would seem godlike to most of us. Sure, maybe Batman can't logically prove that Zauriel isn't really an angel, and he can't explain those Greek Gods with whom Wonder Woman is associated.... but he can't even begin to explain how Hal Jordan's ring works either. And we know God didn't give Hal his ring. Imagine if Superman crash landed on the Roman Empire, 30 AD... would it be at all difficult for him to convince, and, indeed, be convinced himself by those around him, that he is a god? It should be just as easy for Batman to imagine that there are beings that are to Superman what Superman is to Jimmy Olsen. People might think these beings are gods, those beings might even believe it themselves, but that doesn't rationally make it so. All Batman really knows is that there are powers he cannot comprehend: and some of his closest friends have some of them.

Anyway, Batman is not intrinsically religious or intrinsically atheistic. Should we assume Batman wouldn't believe in God because he's suffered? If so, he's a whiny brat like every other person who uses that logic, and he's not intelligent enough to actually look into any of the explanations religions have provided for why humans suffer. Batman is neither whiny nor stupid, so we can rule that logic out. Is Batman too cynical to believe in God? When I look at a guy who works tirelessly to make his home a better place, risking life and limb in the dim hope that he can change things for the better, I sure don't see a cynic. That's an idealist. Of course, the Bat's quest isn't necessarily a religious one for that reason: his focus is on people, not God.
People gave their Arkam Asylum example, so here's an example where Batman seems to express a religious sentiment. When, in an issue titled "Wanted: Santa Claus-- Dead or Alive!", a star appears to reveal where a criminal hides with his intended victim (the "Santa Claus" from the title), Batman closes in commenting that the star had "Gone home". The issue ends with an excerpt from the Gospel according to Luke. The intent is obviously that Batman is showing reverence for the star, and treats its appearance as a miracle (when he says it went home, it's simply not in the cards that he means Superman was holding a spotlight from the air and he's heading to Ma and Pa Kents' for Christmas dinner. He means that God sent the star to save the man, and is bringing it back, its deed done).

[sandwraith]

He isn't Atheist. He's an Episcopalian. So until you look up what that means (good luck) I guess it's safe to assume that he is a Godless SOB

[The Question]

I don't think he's Episcopalian. His parents may have been, but he certainly doesn't practice it.

[sandwraith]

I think he does believe in God. He believes in Destiny. He believes in logic. He believes in Aliens. And lets not forget the one thing he believes in: His parents are in a better place. Which means he does believe in Heaven and hence, God. Well, at least that's just what I think.

[darkknight_uk]

I think of all the characters in comic book mythology Batman is the hardest to apply any kind of faith to. His entire status quo has been yanked out from under his feet at such a young age all he can have faith in is himself.

[sandwraith]

Its obvious that Bruce is a closet Buddhist :)

[true316]

Its obvious that Bruce is a closet Buddhist :)

Yeah, he used to be. Then Katie Holmes introduced him to Tom Cruise. Now its Bat-scientology all the way! :p

[El Payaso]

No..he does believe in God. He says so in Broken City I think...something along the lines of, "God himself is laughing at me." At least we know he acknowledges His existence.

We all blame God for ***** sometimes, then we get over it and realize there is no god as people before us got that there was no Zeus or Odin.

Batman's atheist. Maybe his edication instilled in him the concept of God but he doesn't believe he exists.

[Spidey-Bat]

We all blame God for ***** sometimes, then we get over it and realize there is no god as people before us got that there was no Zeus or Odin.

Batman's atheist. Maybe his edication instilled in him the concept of God but he doesn't believe he exists.

No. People stopped believing in Zeus and Odin b/c all the stories surrounding them are completely rediculous. Zeus constantly has sex with mortals which results in demigods and then there's stuff like the minotaur which was from a woman who was impregnated by a bull.

[El Payaso]

No. People stopped believing in Zeus and Odin b/c all the stories surrounding them are completely rediculous. Zeus constantly has sex with mortals which results in demigods and then there's stuff like the minotaur which was from a woman who was impregnated by a bull.

Yes well I just said that people stopped believing in that and called no reasons, so where's your 'No' coming from?

[The Question]

We all blame God for ***** sometimes, then we get over it and realize there is no god as people before us got that there was no Zeus or Odin.

Not everyone "realizes" there is no god. Some people start to believe that there is no god. Some don't.

[El Payaso]

Not everyone "realizes" there is no god. Some people start to believe that there is no god. Some don't.

Not everyone "realizes" there is a god. Some people start to believe that there is a god. Some don't.

[CConn]

Yes well I just said that people stopped believing in that and called no reasons, so where's your 'No' coming from?The "no" is coming from the fact that people stopped believing in Zeus because they started believing in other Gods (such as the Christian God) instead. The great majority did, at least.

[El Payaso]

The "no" is coming from the fact that people stopped believing in Zeus because they started believing in other Gods (such as the Christian God) instead. The great majority did, at least.

Such a great believers.

- Hey, man, you heard? There's another God. And it's cooler.

- Great, i'm going with that one.

Humankind never ceases to disgust me.

[The Question]

Not everyone "realizes" there is a god. Some people start to believe that there is a god. Some don't.


What I'm saying is that "realize" isn't the right word. "Realize" implies that it's a fact, when really there's very little evidence supporting it either way.

[sandwraith]

There's a song that could describe Bruce Wayne's religious devotion. It's a somber song by Nick Cave titled "Into your arms". It starts something like this:

I don't believe in an interventionist God...

[CConn]

Such a great believers.

- Hey, man, you heard? There's another God. And it's cooler.

- Great, i'm going with that one.

Humankind never ceases to disgust me.Does it upset you when we move on from one scientific principle to another?

[El Payaso]

Scientific????

[CConn]

It's the same principle really.

Man looks for an answer.

He finds one.

But he keeps looking. Digging for a better one.

He finds it, discards his old, now incorrect answer, and moves on.

Christianity is, I think everyone can agree, much more believable than Greek/Roman Mythology, and thusly the world as a whole discarded said Mythology.

IMO.

[batmaluco]

Thanks God that Batman is an atheist...
:confused:

[El Payaso]

It's the same principle really.

Man looks for an answer.

He finds one.

But he keeps looking. Digging for a better one.

He finds it, discards his old, now incorrect answer, and moves on.

And how is this scientific?

Mythology has nothing to do with science. They didn't find those answer as much as they made up those answers.

They didn't know where the thunder came from. They made up Thor. But science tells us there's no gods behind the thunder but a natural phenomenon.

Christianity is, I think everyone can agree, much more believable than Greek/Roman Mythology, and thusly the world as a whole discarded said Mythology.

How is God more believable? Because we're living in an era where (most?) people believe in God? Because God wins by majority of votes?

Greeks believed in Zeus as much as we believe in God. Once the myth is proven wrong, then it's non believable anymore. I can see our God being proven wrong sooner or later and being studied as Mythology in next centuries.

Mythology tries to explain the unexplainable. Being the beginning of life and universe still unknown (what "God" existance tries to explain partially), God still can reign over us. Once he mistery's solved he will fall by his own weight cause he won't be necessary anymore.

[Dark Night II]

in NML he makes some women swear with "god as thier witness" an oath to promise they will look after a baby together

personally i think it would be dumb if batman believed in god mabye his father could have but not bruce it just doesnt make sense to me

APPERANTLY GOD MADE THE EARTH IN 7 DAYS IF HUMANS WHERE CREATED ON THE 2ND DAY OR SUMTHING AND ANIMALS WHERE RUNNING AROUND ON THE 4TH MABYE THAT WOULD MEAN HUMANS AND DINOS WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AT THE SAME TIME AND EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE. WE EVEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WHAEN YOU SEE IT IN REALLY OLD CARTOONS OR MOVIES!!!

GOD JUST DOESN'T EXIST

[titan101]

APPERANTLY GOD MADE THE EARTH IN 7 DAYS IF HUMANS WHERE CREATED ON THE 2ND DAY OR SUMTHING AND ANIMALS WHERE RUNNING AROUND ON THE 4TH MABYE THAT WOULD MEAN HUMANS AND DINOS WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AT THE SAME TIME AND EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE. WE EVEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WHAEN YOU SEE IT IN REALLY OLD CARTOONS OR MOVIES!!!

GOD JUST DOESN'T EXISTwell,it's a way better theory than saying something like"we were all created out of nothing".

god simply HAS to exist.that whole "big bang" theory just doesn't convince me.





anyway,to be back on topic,as another poster already said somewhere,batman's not religous.just spiritual.

[hulkamania85]

Greeks believed in Zeus as much as we believe in God. Once the myth is proven wrong, then it's non believable anymore. I can see our God being proven wrong sooner or later and being studied as Mythology in next centuries.

Mythology tries to explain the unexplainable. Being the beginning of life and universe still unknown (what "God" existance tries to explain partially), God still can reign over us. Once he mistery's solved he will fall by his own weight cause he won't be necessary anymore.

The existence of God cannot be proven true or false. It's a matter of faith, not science.

I acknowledge the truth of science and that a lot of the Bible is myth that is used to explain God's love but can't be taken as literal fact. I've questioned my faith before but in the end it comes down to my belief that life is too special to have just happened by chance.

As far as Batman goes, the correct answer as Triumph would put it is "who gives a ****?". Not defining it one way or another allows the reader to decide for himself, and his religious beliefs or lack thereof have no bearing on him being an awesome crime fighter.

[Bizzybone]

Hulkamania thinks that superman is the messiah lmao. Bwhahahahahahahaha imagine.

[hulkamania85]

Hulkamania thinks that superman is the messiah lmao. Bwhahahahahahahaha imagine.

Lurk more please.

[Bizzybone]

Don't need to lmao. Your one of his biggest hardcore fans.

[hulkamania85]

Don't need to lmao. Your one of his biggest hardcore fans.

Please do everyone on this board a favor and get back on your meds. Plus it is "you're". Yes, I am a Superman fan. What is your point?

[Bizzybone]

:rolleyes: Why don't you lmao...do you pray to supes each and every night???

[hulkamania85]

:rolleyes: Why don't you lmao...do you pray to supes each and every night???

This wasn't funny before and it sure isn't now. Stop pretending to be a moron. See, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are indeed not a moron, just playing one on the Internet.

It is possible to be a fan of a character and not treat them like a deity. I am a Christian, not a worshipper of Superman. I could go around typing bull about "hay guyz bizzybone worships Goku and seez them as gods. am i rite guyz?" But I don't, because that would just be annoying and terribly unfunny.

[Bizzybone]

This wasn't funny before and it sure isn't now. Stop pretending to be a moron. See, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are indeed not a moron, just playing one on the Internet.
LMAO....YES IT WAS FUNNY NOW DEAL WITH IT YOU FAN BOY. i'M NOT A MORON OKAY, I POST THE FACTS; YOU ARE INDEED IN LOVE WITH THE MANOFSTEEL. THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO PROVE IT FALSE OTHERWISE.

It is possible to be a fan of a character and not treat them like a deity. I am a Christian, not a worshipper of Superman. I could go around typing bull about "hay guyz bizzybone worships Goku and seez them as gods. am i rite guyz?" But I don't, because that would just be annoying and terribly unfunny.
Looks like the hulkmania is wrong again. You love superman like a box of sweet loving candy. By the way, i'm a goku fan, but my biggest fan of them all is cyclops. Get your facts right and head to bed.
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[El Payaso]

well,it's a way better theory than saying something like"we were all created out of nothing".

Is it?

And why you say out of "nothing". Who said "nothing" was the alternative?

god simply HAS to exist.that whole "big bang" theory just doesn't convince me.

HAS to exist?

Again, why IF the Big Bang is a fake, God is THE alternative?

The existence of God cannot be proven true or false. It's a matter of faith, not science.

Same was the cases of Zeus and co. They just believed those gods were real, no science was behind those.

Now you can ask me, how can YOU prove there is no God? but how can we prove there's no Zeus?

Zeus is supposed to not exist. God is supposed to exist.

life is too special to have just happened by chance.

Who said "by chance"? Who said "out of nothing"?

You two are making this look like "If it's not God then it's nothing or just random". Why?

There could be many other explanations. A truth we are not even close to think or suspect.

And God easily could be none of those.

[titan101]

Is it?

And why you say out of "nothing". Who said "nothing" was the alternative?



HAS to exist?

Again, why IF the Big Bang is a fake, God is THE alternative?



Same was the cases of Zeus and co. They just believed those gods were real, no science was behind those.

Now you can ask me, how can YOU prove there is no God? but how can we prove there's no Zeus?

Zeus is supposed to not exist. God is supposed to exist.



Who said "by chance"? Who said "out of nothing"?

You two are making this look like "If it's not God then it's nothing or just random". Why?

There could be many other explanations. A truth we are not even close to think or suspect.

And God easily could be none of those....















































goddamit,i knew i was going to get flamed.

[thehappster]

APPERANTLY GOD MADE THE EARTH IN 7 DAYS IF HUMANS WHERE CREATED ON THE 2ND DAY OR SUMTHING AND ANIMALS WHERE RUNNING AROUND ON THE 4TH...
This was all done on the sixth day.

...MABYE THAT WOULD MEAN HUMANS AND DINOS WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AT THE SAME TIME...
Right.

...AND EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE.
That may be what they teach in school, but that doesn't mean that it has to be true.


(how long before this thread is closed for being OT?)

[hulkamania85]

Who said "by chance"? Who said "out of nothing"?

I didn't say out of nothing. From the big bang theory we certainly came out of something. But if there isn't a higher being and the big bang just happened then existence did sort of happen just by chance. The various things that make up life happened to come together on this planet, while other planets did not develop to get these attributes. There would have been no reason for it other than that is the way things developed by chance.

[El Payaso]

From the big bang theory we certainly came out of something. But if there isn't a higher being and the big bang just happened then existence did sort of happen just by chance.

Then you DO think it happened (?).

The various things that make up life happened to come together on this planet, while other planets did not develop to get these attributes.

Not that WE know.

No planets that WE know.

There would have been no reason for it other than that is the way things developed by chance.

But that means it was done by that God that sent us ten specific commandments? And told us to go to church on sundays?

[hulkamania85]

Then you DO think it happened (?).



Not that WE know.

No planets that WE know.



But that means it was done by that God that sent us ten specific commandments? And told us to go to church on sundays?

The Big Bang? Sure it happened I guess.

I don't think it was God that said go to church on Sundays. I guess that it is how keep holy the sabbath was interpreted over time.

This thread has really gotten off topic.

[El Payaso]

The Big Bang? Sure it happened I guess.

I don't think it was God that said go to church on Sundays. I guess that it is how keep holy the sabbath was interpreted over time.

This thread has really gotten off topic.

Don't be afraid dude.

We're all alone in this universe.

[Nightwing1977]

personally i think it would be dumb if batman believed in god mabye his father could have but not bruce it just doesnt make sense to me



Why it would be dumb if he believe in one? Why it matter if a fiction character believe in something you don't or whatever? You don't read the book just to see if he an atheist do you? And that sound like you're saying people who believe in God are dumb with saying it make Batman dumb if he does. :p

EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE.

Not everyone. Maybe to many, but not everyone. I'm not one of "everyone" you mention thought.

[hulkamania85]

Don't be afraid dude.

We're all alone in this universe.

From your point of view.

[The Question]

APPERANTLY GOD MADE THE EARTH IN 7 DAYS IF HUMANS WHERE CREATED ON THE 2ND DAY OR SUMTHING AND ANIMALS WHERE RUNNING AROUND ON THE 4TH MABYE THAT WOULD MEAN HUMANS AND DINOS WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AT THE SAME TIME AND EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE. WE EVEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WHAEN YOU SEE IT IN REALLY OLD CARTOONS OR MOVIES!!!


GOD JUST DOESN'T EXIST


Yeah. Because one aspect of the Bible is proven to be false, got must not exist, right? Good lord, that's idiotic.

[The Question]

But that means it was done by that God that sent us ten specific commandments? And told us to go to church on sundays?


Why does everyone assume that if god exists, he has to be exactly as described in the bible? And why does everyone assume that if a few aspects of the bible are shown to be false, that God must not exist?

[El Payaso]

From your point of view.

When you talk to God, does he answer you? When you ask him something does he give it to you or at least a reason why you shoudln't have that?

Alone, baby.

Why does everyone assume that if god exists, he has to be exactly as described in the bible? And why does everyone assume that if a few aspects of the bible are shown to be false, that God must not exist?

Because he's Bible's main character.

If he's not the God of Bible maybe he IS Zeus then or any other kind of creator.

And if we don't know God through Bible and other people who claim to be his spokesmen then we don't know God at all, since the guy - in spite of being THE most powerful being of the universe - refuses to say a single word.

[The Question]

Because he's Bible's main character.

As he is with many other holy books and religions. The concept of God does not begin and end with the bible.

If he's not the God of Bible maybe he IS Zeus then or any other kind of creator.

Possibly.

And if we don't know God through Bible and other people who claim to be his spokesmen then we don't know God at all, since the guy - in spite of being THE most powerful being of the universe - refuses to say a single word.

As I said, the concept of god does not begin and end with the bible. People who act like it does are really not looking at things thoroughly.

[El Payaso]

Possibly.



As I said, the concept of god does not begin and end with the bible. People who act like it does are really not looking at things thoroughly.

That 'Possibly' makes me agree with you.

Then let's not call him God with a capital G. He's just the creator behind this whoever he is. Not the merciful compassionate caricature we're forced to believe in - and that surely Batman doesn't believe in.

[The Question]

Why not with a capital G? What's it hurt?

[El Payaso]

Capital G is for a name.

According to you (and me) if he could be Zeus I'd say it should be a capital Z.

[The Question]

Well, I hardly think it's Zeus either. And a capital letter simply means a proper noun. Not necesairily a name. God with a capital G works fine.

[El Payaso]

Second reason, to avoid religions' manipulation.

[captain_jimbo]

APPERANTLY GOD MADE THE EARTH IN 7 DAYS IF HUMANS WHERE CREATED ON THE 2ND DAY OR SUMTHING AND ANIMALS WHERE RUNNING AROUND ON THE 4TH MABYE THAT WOULD MEAN HUMANS AND DINOS WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AT THE SAME TIME AND EVERYONE KNOWS THATS NOT TRUE. WE EVEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WHAEN YOU SEE IT IN REALLY OLD CARTOONS OR MOVIES!!!

GOD JUST DOESN'T EXIST

Actually, according to the Bible, humans were created on the 6th day. By the way the Bible is not always supposed to be taken literally, because it also says that one day to God is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.

[El Payaso]

Actually, according to the Bible, humans were created on the 6th day. By the way the Bible is not always supposed to be taken literally, because it also says that one day to God is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.

Cool euphemism for 'lie'.

Next time someone catch me lying I'll go, 'Hey, dude. I am not always supposed to be taken literally' or 'Well, to me one hour is like a week'.:up:

[The Question]

Most of the bible is metaphoric in nature. When you do take it literally, alot of it is factually quite flimsy. However, alot of it isn;t literal in nature. It's metaphore.

[El Payaso]

Most of the bible is metaphoric in nature. When you do take it literally, alot of it is factually quite flimsy. However, alot of it isn;t literal in nature. It's metaphore.

I agree. God is indeed a metaphor, not to be taken literally as a being that actually exists the way it's described.

The same 7 days are metaphor for millions of years, God could be a metaphor for... yes, Zeus (or any other god known or unknown).

[The Question]

I agree. God is indeed a metaphor, not to be taken literally as a being that actually exists the way it's described.

The same 7 days are metaphor for millions of years, God could be a metaphor for... yes, Zeus (or any other god known or unknown).



Exactly. If he does exist, I doubt that the way he is described in the bible is acurate. It's all based on interpritation and metaphore.

[Superhobo]

Batman>god

[starfighter]

Batman>god

That about sums it up.

[hulkamania85]

Batman>god

Hay guyz blasphemy is funny am i rite?

[El Payaso]

Hay guyz blasphemy is funny am i rite?

It is not funny. That's why we don't put Batman in the second place.:up:

[co2]

Do you think that Batman is an athiest or at least agnostic?
As he is a master scientist, highly rational and serious and, more importantly, supposed to have a genius IQ, I can only imagine that Batman/Bruce Wayne does not believe in God or at least sees no reason to believe in him and is agnostic, claiming no knoweldge of his existence or non-existence (as none of us can). I was just wondering what you think because in contrast I would imagine that Spider-man and Captain America probably are christians or religious in some way lol. This may not be a relevant or important fact, but then neither are lots of forums in this place. So, just speculate away,
do you imagine Bruce is religious or agnostic or athiest? What would his opinion be of religious people?


I'm trying to understand where your suppositions on how any of those characters feel about that issue come from. I'm going to guess that you think because Batman is pragmatic and somber, he doesn't believe in God, while Spider-man and Cap seem to have brighter and hopeful personalities, so they do. Is that it? That seems rather narrow. There are many somber people that believe in God, while there are some people that have a so called "hopeful" personality do not. I don't think you can judge like that.

[Nietzsche]

i wasn't

[TheGrayGhost]

I think Batman does believe in God.

Looking through these posts, there are many people in here misunderstand The Holy Bible and The Holy Spirit Its sad. Oh well. I'll pray for you. :)

[dude love]

Batman>god

Uh uh. You see, Batman is God. Batman beat the old God in a fight. They made a contract one week before the fight. Stating whoever won took control of the Universe. However, Batman cleverly worded the contract into a week from God's POV. Which is a million years. Batman, used the one million years for prep-time. God never stood a chance.

[vibeke_T]

He's not an atheist...

[vibeke_T]

"And I do not pray, for I have no God" Batman in Arkham Asylum.


what does this mean then:
"And I cannot even pray for I have no God.” –Amadeus Arkham

[vibeke_T]

woooh, this might help if it hasnt already been posted:

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Batman.html

[Nepenthes]

Batman is the embodiment of athiest humanism, which rejects divine intervention in human affairs, but can accept a a higher intellignece responsible for creating the (multi)universe and its laws.

Batman would not be doing what he does to such extremes if he believed in an active God. He's all about the power of the mere mortal to affect our course for the greater good, along with the bittersweet nature and the limitations of the human condition. He symbolises raw human perseverance and natural talent, in contrast to sumbissions to inhuman deities and supernatural forces or relaince on technological modifications (e.g. Superman, Green Lantern, the Flash).



In regards to Spidey, Cap or any other hero, I don't think any individual who has travelled to other dimensions, encountered aliens, ghosts, gods and supreme beings such as celestials, Beyonders or The Endless will be ready to accept an Earth religion to the standard that their fellow adherants would accept. Depending on which denomination you ask...they myths are literal or metaphor, other dimensions exist, or they don't, god intervenes, or he dosn't etc.

The heroes will simply accept that they don't know jack, that various supreme beings create and influence realms all over the place, and that one being or force was possibily responsible for the whole deal. How their experiances will influence what particular set of Earth myths and customs they choose to let form meaning in their lives...is harder to determine. But it dosn't matter. Basically they accept that their Earth religion cannot be 100%correct in explaining the world....but they celebrate the power of the stories and rituals to create community and a sense of meaning and well-being.