Fire vs Ice...Human Torch vs Ice Man??? Please...

[casketmouth]

I really don't know. I like both of them the same and there counter parts. Torch is way better movie wise but overall I don't know. Who would win in a fight to the death. Just post thoughts or somethin'.

[Exabyte]

I don't know who would win, that is something that has been debated for as long as they have been around. Torch can become a super nova, but I don't know how cold Ice man can get.

[The Spawn]

Back in the day, there was no 'movie wise'...

[The Spawn]

No matter how cold he get's, I don't think he can take a super nova.

[casketmouth]

Back in the day, there was no 'movie wise'...

yeah... back in the day! Now who would win you think.

[casketmouth]

No matter how cold he get's, I don't think he can take a super nova.

yeah that's a tough one.

[Roughneck]

I would normally say Draw, but now that Iceman is made of solid Ice, he'll just become a puddle.

[SuGarRush]

Underestimating Bobby,

while Johnny can go nova (*ooohhh nova!*), this does take him a second to do so.
Bobby can control any liquid and cause it to freeze, like say... the capillaries in johnny's brain? kinda hard to go nova when you are suffering a major brain anuerism.
Or Bobby could flash freeze Johnny into a block of ice. Storm can't light up if there is no oxygen for him to combust with.
Or flash freeze Torch's lungs, they shatter the next time he contracts his diaphragm to breethe, *snap crackle pop*
Johnny is hyped and touted all the time, but Bobby is hardly ever used to the full extent of his powers...

[Sparta*]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167898&page=3

iceman won by a vote in my tournament

[BrianWilly]

I think that at optimal conditions for both fighers Iceman would take it about nine out of ten times. He's just that powerful. Nothing hurts him permanently. He doesn't really get tired. He doesn't have any limits to his powers that he's discovered. He's an adult omega class mutant for poop's sake and was a trained fighter at an age when Johnny was still screwing around with chicks and cars.

HOWEVER, for a long time now writers -- okay, fine, just Chuck Austen and Peter Milligan specifically:p -- have not been writing Iceman at optimal conditions. It burns me (HEHEHEHEHEHEH) to admit it but in terms of continuity Iceman has been in a bit of a subpar slump for a while now, both emotionally and physically. Other than a cool (HEHEHEHEHEHEH) scene Austen wrote about a year ago with Bobby turning into GiantMegaUltraIceman by absorbing water from a lake, he seems to have forgotten pretty much every ridiculously godlike thing he's ever learned about his powers in the 90s.

(Okay, so in "The Draco" he killed a demon mutant by sucking out the water from her body, but also in that arc he was blown up and had Havok threaten to pee on his disembodied head, so points off for that:p)

And what's Johnny been doing recently? Oh, not much...just turning into Galactus' herald and wielding the Power Cosmic. *shrug*

Let's face it...in terms of continuity Johnny's been at his physical and emotional best and Bobby's been at his worst. If we put them head to head right now at this moment, Johnny would kick the popsicle's ass up and down the street.

[griffolyon12]

Johnny Storm would probably win,all he has to do is hit Bobby with a fire blast and he'd melt.

[rodhulk]

Tough one, but I'd go with Ice Man. I think he could put out the Flame quick while Ice can take a bit to melt, much more than snow.

[Dwarf lord]

Though I'm an X-fanboy, Johnny Storm is still one of my favorites.

[CaptainStacy]

Underestimating Bobby,

while Johnny can go nova (*ooohhh nova!*), this does take him a second to do so.
Bobby can control any liquid and cause it to freeze, like say... the capillaries in johnny's brain? kinda hard to go nova when you are suffering a major brain anuerism.
Or Bobby could flash freeze Johnny into a block of ice. Storm can't light up if there is no oxygen for him to combust with.
Or flash freeze Torch's lungs, they shatter the next time he contracts his diaphragm to breethe, *snap crackle pop*
Johnny is hyped and touted all the time, but Bobby is hardly ever used to the full extent of his powers...

Not entirely true. Johnny's body produces heat and fire, to such an extent that he was able to stay aflame underwater, sans oxygen, for a short period. If Bobby began to freeze any part of Johnny's body, Johnny would just increase his heat output to counter it.

[Zaptoitnow]

Yeah, stay aflame, but not initially combust.

[Gambit8370]

I feel compelled to post this for you kids who may not realize that they were publishing comics before Ultimate Spider-Man #1 came out...

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/52019311922.23.GIF

Go check out a back issue bin.

Chances are you'll find good stories for cheaper than they're charging for new comics these days.

[Hellion]

Torch would win.

[XFanTim]

Hmm . . . if neither was trying to kill the other, I'd say Torch wins, if only because Iceman can take more damage without dying, meaning Torch wouldn't have to hold back as much. He could basically melt most of Iceman's body and heat the surrounding air until all the moisture rises away, leaving Bobby without any water to reconstruct himself from. Whereas, Bobby's non-lethal attacks would all involve encasing Johnny in ice or throwing Ice at him, and his fire would melt it away no problem before it touched him.

Now, if both were trying their best to kill each other, it would come down to who got the drop on the other, since each could kill the other one instantaneously. Bobby could instantaneously freeze every molecule of water in Johnny's body (he did it to Legion in "Legion Quest"). But on the other hand, one full-force blast of Johnny's flame would vaporize Bobby completely. So I think it's about 50-50.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that when Torch's flame hits Iceman's ice, Torch's flame wins, but I'm fairly sure that's true.

[X]

I feel compelled to post this for you kids who may not realize that they were publishing comics before Ultimate Spider-Man #1 came out...

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/52019311922.23.GIF

Go check out a back issue bin.

Chances are you'll find good stories for cheaper than they're charging for new comics these days.

Feh, beat me to it. Showing that comic that is. :o

[X]

Hmm . . . if neither was trying to kill the other, I'd say Torch wins, if only because Iceman can take more damage without dying, meaning Torch wouldn't have to hold back as much. He could basically melt most of Iceman's body and heat the surrounding air until all the moisture rises away, leaving Bobby without any water to reconstruct himself from. Whereas, Bobby's non-lethal attacks would all involve encasing Johnny in ice or throwing Ice at him, and his fire would melt it away no problem before it touched him.

Now, if both were trying their best to kill each other, it would come down to who got the drop on the other, since each could kill the other one instantaneously. Bobby could instantaneously freeze every molecule of water in Johnny's body (he did it to Legion in "Legion Quest"). But on the other hand, one full-force blast of Johnny's flame would vaporize Bobby completely. So I think it's about 50-50.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that when Torch's flame hits Iceman's ice, Torch's flame wins, but I'm fairly sure that's true.

Good stuff. :up:

I'm not to well versed X-Men wise, I know all the basics... So correct me if I'm wrong...

As long as there's moisture on the planet, peroid, Bobby can come back. I mean, he's kind of a Swamp Thing like elemental. And even if Johnny goes Nova, the entire planet isn't going anywhere.

[XFanTim]

I'm not entirely sure. I know he's been impaled, reduced to nothing but a head, and even blasted into little pieces, and each time he was able to reconstruct himself from the moisture in the air. (That last one was in the Age of Apocalypse, though.) But I'm not entirely sure he would survive if he was completely vaporized. I kind of think he might, since he seems to really be more like a disembodied consciousness that controls the ice that makes up his body. At least, that's what he was like in AoA -- I'm not quite sure 616 Iceman is there yet, although he's been getting closer.

At any rate, even if Iceman can survive vaporization, Torch might be able to keep him from re-forming indefinitely if he could keep the heat on him. (AoA Iceman had some sort of teleporting through moisture trick he might use to get away, but I don't think 616 Iceman's ever done it.) But I'm not that big an FF fan, so I don't know if there's a limit on how long Johnny can maintain his nova flame.

For what it's worth, I think someone like Xavier could definitely kill Iceman if he really wanted to. Completely destroy his mind, and there's nothing left to animate his body.

[X]

I agree with you on the Xavier bit, to some degree. I'd imagine that an equally powerful telepath could come along and pull Bobby's consciousness. I just don't see very many telepaths if any at all being able to totally destroy a practially abstract mind.

And even the 616 Bobby has done some insane things... I mean, freezing The Stranger's eye blasts? Must of reduced the cold to absolute zero or somehting... Regardless, damned impressive.

[Lackey]

Go check out a back issue bin.

Chances are you'll find good stories for cheaper than they're charging for new comics these days.


except that particular one would cost you around $10

[X]

except that particular one would cost you around $10

Ahahaha. And so the old grumpy man schtick fails. :(

And it's cost a bit more than 10 bucks. Check this out...

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=list&title=52019311922&publisher=MV&snumber=21

[XFanTim]

And even the 616 Bobby has done some insane things... I mean, freezing The Stranger's eye blasts? Must of reduced the cold to absolute zero or somehting... Regardless, damned impressive.
Wow, that is impressive. I haven't read that one -- what issue was it in?

[X]

Got absolutely no idea to be honest with you. Saw scans of it though.

[Gambit8370]

except that particular one would cost you around $10

Ahahaha. And so the old grumpy man schtick fails. :(


I didn't say buy a frickin overpriced CGC copy...:rolleyes:

I bet you I can find a copy at Wizard World Chicago for under 3 bucks.

[X]

I didn't say buy a frickin overpriced CGC copy...:rolleyes:

I bet you I can find a copy at Wizard World Chicago for under 3 bucks.

You bet? There's one you'd lose.

And did you even remotely look at that link? It's almost 20 bucks for a very fine copy, and that's it on sale. No "CGC" copy there either, that's off one of the best comic sites on the internet.

[Gambit8370]

You bet? There's one you'd lose.

And did you even remotely look at that link? It's almost 20 bucks for a very fine copy, and that's it on sale. No "CGC" copy there either, that's off one of the best comic sites on the internet.
See, though, that's the beauty of comic conventions.

There are tons of mooks who inherited their daddy's or uncle's comic collections who slap a "2-FOR-A-DOLLAR" sign on a bunch of boxes that us collectors swarm over like a pack of slathering vultures.

I'll find one for under 3 bucks.

Mark my words.

[X]

Ahahaha, you've definitely got me there.

Be honest with you, I've never even been to a comic convention so I woulden't exactly know how things work there.

Sorry. :o

[Lackey]

See, though, that's the beauty of comic conventions.

There are tons of mooks who inherited their daddy's or uncle's comic collections who slap a "2-FOR-A-DOLLAR" sign on a bunch of boxes that us collectors swarm over like a pack of slathering vultures.

I'll find one for under 3 bucks.

Mark my words.


doesn't matter if you find one under 3 bucks because you said "check out the back issue bin" you didn't say "go to a comicon and check out what mooks are selling"

You find a copy under 3 bucks in a comic book store and then you'll prove yourself right.

[Midnight Ice]

Underestimating Bobby,

while Johnny can go nova (*ooohhh nova!*), this does take him a second to do so.
Bobby can control any liquid and cause it to freeze, like say... the capillaries in johnny's brain? kinda hard to go nova when you are suffering a major brain anuerism.
Or Bobby could flash freeze Johnny into a block of ice. Storm can't light up if there is no oxygen for him to combust with.
Or flash freeze Torch's lungs, they shatter the next time he contracts his diaphragm to breethe, *snap crackle pop*
Johnny is hyped and touted all the time, but Bobby is hardly ever used to the full extent of his powers...
i was about to make those same points! :xmen:

[Odin's Lapdog]

Ice man

far more versatile with his gifts..

[XFanTim]

Did a little Googling to find out more about Bobby fighting the Stranger. Apparently Iceman has had a power upgrade (http://www.mutanthigh.com/iceman.html)

Months later, Bobby was one of five people selected by Prosh to go on a number of time-traveling adventures, supposedly to discover information vital to saving humanity. During these jaunts, Prosh pushed Iceman's powers to their ultimate potential, allowing him to quickly travel great distances through water and to reform himself after being vaporized, among other things. Bobby was then instrumental in defeating the Stranger, who had corrupted Prosh's programming and was trying to accelerate humanity's evolution so he could control eternity. Now with nearly complete control of his powers, Bobby rejoined the X-Men as a full-time member. So apparently now 616 Iceman can do the teleporting through water thing and recreate himself after being completely vaporized. I'd say that gives him a definite edge over Torch in a fight to the death (since Johnny's a good bit more killable.) I'm still not so sure Bobby could incapacitate Torch with non-lethal methods, though. Can Torch raise his own body temperature? Or is he just totally immune to his own heat? If it's the latter, maybe Iceman could cool him internally until he passes out (since Iceman doesn't just shoot ice, he can lower temperatures by simply thinking it).

[Gambit8370]

doesn't matter if you find one under 3 bucks because you said "check out the back issue bin" you didn't say "go to a comicon and check out what mooks are selling"

You find a copy under 3 bucks in a comic book store and then you'll prove yourself right.

Touche'.

[Torchd]

For anyone who actually read the comic does "without the use of his usual ice slide" mean he can fly? And did you get to see him fly? Thanks

[X]

Did a little Googling to find out more about Bobby fighting the Stranger. Apparently Iceman has had a power upgrade (http://www.mutanthigh.com/iceman.html)

So apparently now 616 Iceman can do the teleporting through water thing and recreate himself after being completely vaporized. I'd say that gives him a definite edge over Torch in a fight to the death (since Johnny's a good bit more killable.) I'm still not so sure Bobby could incapacitate Torch with non-lethal methods, though. Can Torch raise his own body temperature? Or is he just totally immune to his own heat? If it's the latter, maybe Iceman could cool him internally until he passes out (since Iceman doesn't just shoot ice, he can lower temperatures by simply thinking it).

Well, Johnny's been known to actually boil his own blood before, to get rid of a poison. So, there you have it.

[Midnight Ice]

bioling his own blood wont do anything against his opponent who can flas sreeze his lungs or brian. :xmen:

[spiderxxman]

i vote iceman, but how is torch winning by that much votes is iceman could just freeze his lungs like iceman03 said.

[X]

bioling his own blood wont do anything against his opponent who can flas sreeze his lungs or brian. :xmen:

I concur. But, question needed to be anwsered, so... :up:

[Midnight Ice]

I concur. But, question needed to be anwsered, so... :up:
:up: OK :xmen:

[Varient]

I really don't know. I like both of them the same and there counter parts. Torch is way better movie wise but overall I don't know. Who would win in a fight to the death. Just post thoughts or somethin'.

By comics : Iceman hands down.

In the Movies:The Torch.

Reasons:

In Comics 616 Universe Iceman has more control over heat, moisture and his immediate enviroment he has survived in space.

[Varient]

I really don't know. I like both of them the same and there counter parts. Torch is way better movie wise but overall I don't know. Who would win in a fight to the death. Just post thoughts or somethin'.
Gotta add:
Technically bobby can just "turn off" the torch when he's in range. :oo

[XFanTim]

bioling his own blood wont do anything against his opponent who can flas sreeze his lungs or brian. :xmen:
True, but again that's assuming Bobby is willing to kill. But maybe that's the standard assumption for this sort of thing.

Technically bobby can just "turn off" the torch when he's in range.Really? Has he actually done this in the comics?

[Varient]

Really? Has he actually done this in the comics?

To be clear:
"Iceman" "Controls Heat" in a localized area.

Everything he does involves being able to gather moisture from the air and freeze it.

VERY INTENSE POWER BECAUSE:
Imagine how much water it takes to make an "Ice Slide" or heck,.. An "Ice Bat"
That amount of water, (which he pulls from the air), would easily cover the entire floor of an office building as moisture is normally distributed in atmosphere, (More near ocean,..less in desert, but you get the idea.)
Yet he's able to collect it quickly and either make an iceslide for transport, a tool for a fight or freeze you,.. all in less time than it takes to say it.

Are you aware of what it would take for a Machine to pull water out of air and produce an "ice Bat" in less than a second?
And he's more selective than the Torch.

Johnny can absorb and manip flame and heat.

Bobby can suck moisture from the air,.... or any nearby watersource without effecting anything else, control his own and any local temperture from ambiant to 100's below kelvan.

I'm not even going into the White Queen's spin on his powers.

If Johhny flies within range, Bobby just pulls the moisture and heat from around him,... he falls and does a mummy.

[Midnight Ice]

To be clear:
"Iceman" "Controls Heat" in a localized area.

Everything he does involves being able to gather moisture from the air and freeze it.

VERY INTENSE POWER BECAUSE:
Imagine how much water it takes to make an "Ice Slide" or heck,.. An "Ice Bat"
That amount of water, (which he pulls from the air), would easily cover the entire floor of an office building as moisture is normally distributed in atmosphere, (More near ocean,..less in desert, but you get the idea.)
Yet he's able to collect it quickly and either make an iceslide for transport, a tool for a fight or freeze you,.. all in less time than it takes to say it.

Are you aware of what it would take for a Machine to pull water out of air and produce an "ice Bat" in less than a second?
And he's more selective than the Torch.

Johnny can absorb and manip flame and heat.

Bobby can suck moisture from the air,.... or any nearby watersource without effecting anything else, control his own and any local temperture from ambiant to 100's below kelvan.

I'm not even going into the White Queen's spin on his powers.

If Johhny flies within range, Bobby just pulls the moisture and heat from around him,... he falls and does a mummy.
that is a great point! :xmen:

[Torchd]

Bump

[Varient]

Bump
Geee,... Based on your handle,


I wonder who you "feel" would win? :rolleyes:

[X]

Geee,... Based on your handle,


I wonder who you "feel" would win? :rolleyes:

Ahahaha, well, we've got an Iceman sn in here too, although he's actually presented facts and what not.

[Midnight Ice]

Yes! Here I am. Facts are good. They are the only way to prove something. Such as a battle... :xmen:

[SuGarRush]

I'm still surprised we have so many people who voted for Storm, I guess not as many people stopped to think about it or understand the extent of just how powerful Bobby is...

[X]

I'm still surprised we have so many people who voted for Storm, I guess not as many people stopped to think about it or understand the extent of just how powerful Bobby is...

You expect people to listen and take stated facts at face value around here? Hehhehehee, ahh...

[Midnight Ice]

You expect people to listen and take stated facts at face value around here? Hehhehehee, ahh...
that would like asking some people on here not to complian about something that isnt out yet. :xmen:

[X]

You think the movie boards are bad, go into The Hulk boards for five minutes. I dare you. :mad: :o :(

[XFanTim]

To be clear:
"Iceman" "Controls Heat" in a localized area.

Everything he does involves being able to gather moisture from the air and freeze it.

VERY INTENSE POWER BECAUSE:
Imagine how much water it takes to make an "Ice Slide" or heck,.. An "Ice Bat"
That amount of water, (which he pulls from the air), would easily cover the entire floor of an office building as moisture is normally distributed in atmosphere, (More near ocean,..less in desert, but you get the idea.)
Yet he's able to collect it quickly and either make an iceslide for transport, a tool for a fight or freeze you,.. all in less time than it takes to say it.

Are you aware of what it would take for a Machine to pull water out of air and produce an "ice Bat" in less than a second?
And he's more selective than the Torch.

Johnny can absorb and manip flame and heat.

Bobby can suck moisture from the air,.... or any nearby watersource without effecting anything else, control his own and any local temperture from ambiant to 100's below kelvan.

I'm not even going into the White Queen's spin on his powers.

If Johhny flies within range, Bobby just pulls the moisture and heat from around him,... he falls and does a mummy.
"100's below kelvan"? I'm not sure what you mean. You can't have temperatures below zero on the kelvin scale . . . if you just means he lowers the temperature by hundreds of kelvin, that's the same as saying he lowers it by hundreds of degrees celsius -- 1 kelvin equals 1 degree celsius, the only difference between the two scales is where the zero point is.

At any rate, I'm familiar with Iceman's powers (more so than with Torch's, since I'm a regular reader of X-Men but not of FF), and I realize he has lots of control over temperature and can lower temperatures by hundreds of degrees at will. But Torch probably emits thousands of degrees of heat, maybe tens of thousands. Heck, lightning can get up to 10,000 fahrenheit (well over 5,000 celsius), and I'm pretty sure Johnny's most intense flame emits more heat than a lightning bolt. I can't think of any example off the top of my head where Bobby has taken temperatures like that and instantly lowered them to zero, can you? That's not to say he couldn't do it, but I'd say it's not proven. Plus, we're not talking just dropping temperatures by that much, we're talking continually cooling them as Torch keeps pouring out more heat.

Add to that the fact that there's probably no way an actual comic book featuring a fight between Iceman and Torch would have Iceman just look at Torch and instantly snuff him out. I mean, there's just no way any writer would write it like that. Do you disagree?

At any rate, I still think Bobby would win a fight to the death, just because he's a lot harder to kill than Johnny is. And I also agree that Bobby has more control over ice and moisture than Johnny has over flame, in terms of the variety of effects he can achieve. But he can't do stuff like insta-freeze Johnny's brain if he's not trying to kill him. In a fight that's not to the death (i.e., a fight that's actually like it would happen in the comics), it would probably come down to Torch just blasting away with maximum heat and Iceman blasting away with maximum cold. And I'm not convinced Iceman can lower temperatures faster than Torch can raise them.

[XFanTim]

Then again, there's at least one thing Iceman can do that Torch can't which would be useful in a non-lethal fight, namely Iceman can absorb moisture into himself to increase his size and strength. Then again, I'm not sure if he could get close enough to Torch to land a physical blow if Torch were trying to melt him -- again, it's not obvious to me that Iceman can lower temperatures faster than Torch can raise them. But Torch also might not to try to melt Iceman if he doesn't realize that Bobby would survive it, and if he is holding back I'm not sure he could prevent Bobby from hitting him.

There's also the fact that Bobby can attack from any direction, whereas Torch can only attack outward from his body. For instance, Bobby can make a giant block of ice materialize above Torch and fall on him, whereas, Torch's flame is always emitted from himself.

So I'd say even in a non-lethal fight Iceman has the advantage, although I still don't think he could just snuff Torch out at will.

Of course, you could probably make it go either way by stacking the odds against them, like making them fight in a low moisture environment or a low oxygen environment.

[X]

Good stuff, Tim. :up: :)

[Midnight Ice]

Yeah, I agree with everyting you mentioned. Thank you for bringing for facts and seriousness to the conversation! :xmen:

[htorch4ever]

When Johnny causes a supernova he can destroy the entire planet right?:ff:

[Colossal Spoons]

Not sure if he can do all that.

[X]

When Johnny causes a supernova he can destroy the entire planet right?:ff:

A small moon. So, a good part of the planet.

[Varient]

"100's below kelvan"? I'm not sure what you mean. You can't have temperatures below zero on the kelvin scale . . . if you just means he lowers the temperature by hundreds of kelvin, that's the same as saying he lowers it by hundreds of degrees celsius -- 1 kelvin equals 1 degree celsius, the only difference between the two scales is where the zero point is.

Sorry I was misinformed, (Need to be more precise)
Kelvin Scale
The Kelvin temperature scale (K) was developed by Lord Kelvin in the mid 1800s. The zero point of this scale is equivalent to -273.16 °C on the Celsius scale. This zero point is considered the lowest possible temperature of anything in the universe. Therefore, the Kelvin scale is also known as the "absolute temperature scale". At the freezing point of water, the temperature of the Kelvin scale reads 273 K. At the boiling point of water, it reads 373 K.

Whereas the Kelvin scale is widely used by scientists, the Celsius or Fahrenheit scales are used in daily life. These two scales are easier to understand than the large numbers of the Kelvin scale. Could you imagine waking up to your radio and hearing the DJ give a weather report like this: "It's going to be a beautiful day today with sunny skies and a balmy temperature of 297 K!" That's 24 °C or 75 °F.



"At any rate, I'm familiar with Iceman's powers (more so than with Torch's, since I'm a regular reader of X-Men but not of FF), and I realize he has lots of control over temperature and can lower temperatures by hundreds of degrees at will. But Torch probably emits thousands of degrees of heat, maybe tens of thousands. Heck, lightning can get up to 10,000 fahrenheit (well over 5,000 celsius), and I'm pretty sure Johnny's most intense flame emits more heat than a lightning bolt. I can't think of any example off the top of my head where Bobby has taken temperatures like that and instantly lowered them to zero, can you? "
Thinking,...... I think in the Champions He was doing some serious feat stuff,... He followed darkstar into orbit and was able to stay iced up and shield himself from space and the sun. He was able to ice over a mystical portal (Energy) to keep it open, Unfortunatly Speed of cooling and number of degrees are never described,.. just feats.

" That's not to say he couldn't do it, but I'd say it's not proven. Plus, we're not talking just dropping temperatures by that much, we're talking continually cooling them as Torch keeps pouring out more heat.
I'm trying to remember The endurance of Iceman.

Add to that the fact that there's probably no way an actual comic book featuring a fight between Iceman and Torch would have Iceman just look at Torch and instantly snuff him out. I mean, there's just no way any writer would write it like that. Do you disagree?

Nope,.. makes for a boring story,.. besides neither hero cuts loose at full power against a living opponent,... same argument as the Thor/Superman fight.


"At any rate, I still think Bobby would win a fight to the death, just because he's a lot harder to kill than Johnny is. And I also agree that Bobby has more control over ice and moisture than Johnny has over flame, in terms of the variety of effects he can achieve. But he can't do stuff like insta-freeze Johnny's brain if he's not trying to kill him. In a fight that's not to the death (i.e., a fight that's actually like it would happen in the comics), it would probably come down to Torch just blasting away with maximum heat and Iceman blasting away with maximum cold. And I'm not convinced Iceman can lower temperatures faster than Torch can raise them.
Can't argue the point for the same reasons,...Unless he's trying to kill him he's not going to easily beat the torch.

D.

[Varient]

When Johnny causes a supernova he can destroy the entire planet right?:ff:
Nope

His nova flame once trashed a University Campus,.. And I always thought his max would do a city,... but the planet?

Nova, (Cosmic-Powered by Galactus), couldn't do it,.. and she was magnitudes above johnny in power.

[X]

Nope

His nova flame once trashed a University Campus,.. And I always thought his max would do a city,... but the planet?

Nova, (Cosmic-Powered by Galactus), couldn't do it,.. and she was magnitudes above johnny in power.

You kidding? Any herald has the power to destroy Earth.

I mean, Nova has always restricted herself, she's at the ass end of the heralds... But still.

[X]

Nope

His nova flame once trashed a University Campus,.. And I always thought his max would do a city,... but the planet?

Nova, (Cosmic-Powered by Galactus), couldn't do it,.. and she was magnitudes above johnny in power.

You kidding? Any herald has the power to destroy Earth.

I mean, Nova has always restricted herself, she's at the ass end of the heralds... But still.

[Varient]

You kidding? Any herald has the power to destroy Earth.

I mean, Nova has always restricted herself, she's at the ass end of the heralds... But still.

Name a flame-based Herald who could destroy the planet in one blast?

I dare say Norrin Rad Couldn't do it,... (And he's the most versatile) otherwise when Doom "stole" his power Doom would STILL be in charge.

Sorry,.. if the Heralds were THAT powerfull,.. Spiderman, the Thing, Thor,.. and others who gave them Pause wouldn't have stood a chance.

[X]

Name a flame-based Herald who could destroy the planet in one blast?

I dare say Norrin Rad Couldn't do it,... (And he's the most versatile) otherwise when Doom "stole" his power Doom would STILL be in charge.

Sorry,.. if the Heralds were THAT powerfull,.. Spiderman, the Thing, Thor,.. and others who gave them Pause wouldn't have stood a chance.

Who said anything about one blast? :confused:

Nova is far beyond flame as well. You know how powerful a star is? Our star gives off more energy in one second than we have in our entire history, and that includes every nuclear and atomic weapon ever tested. Coal, electricity, every bit of energy ever.

Anyhow, I've seen fights with Norrin where he's fighting someone else and several planets around him are being shattered. I mean, beyond what we saw with Betta Ray Bill and Stardust, to say the least.

[SLVRSR4]

I think they mentioned something of him destroying the enitre planet if he caused a supernova in the movies...:confused:

[SuGarRush]

Lucy you are right they did, of course, they also gave Doom superpowers and put him in the "Space Station" as well, so anything in the movie is basically nonapplicable here.
But yes it was in the film.


Come on here people, this is not a popularity contest, it's a fight, quit judgin by who you like the most and face the facts!

[Midnight Ice]

yes, it is obvious that the torch has more fans here, but we need to look at the facts. as stated earlier, iceman could freeze the torch's lungs or brian with a thought. you all can read the rest of the thread if you want to see all the other reasons. :xmen:

[Marc]

Name a flame-based Herald who could destroy the planet in one blast?

I dare say Norrin Rad Couldn't do it,... (And he's the most versatile) otherwise when Doom "stole" his power Doom would STILL be in charge.

Sorry,.. if the Heralds were THAT powerfull,.. Spiderman, the Thing, Thor,.. and others who gave them Pause wouldn't have stood a chance.

Firelord could.

When Firelord fought spidey he held back his actual blasts. We initially see him blow up a planetoid on the way to earth as it was in his way. And he continually goes over the fact he could simply destroy the city to kill spidey but it would be dishonourable. Firelord is effectively a man sized sun. Silver Surfer when fighting usually goes over the fact he isn't trying to hurt anyone as well. And when the heralds are trying to hurt someone it is directed at an individual with innocents around them.

Heralds are definitely that powerful.

=======

And if Johnny's nova can destroy a moon then it would effectively destroy Earth anyway. Hell just blowing up our moon would result in the death of everyone on Earth (normal humans). Still he wouldn't get the chance IMO, Iceman would win.

[Riggs15382]

I dont think freezing someone's insides would do well as long as the guys on fire. And torch can also fly, so that would make him harder to hit.

[Midnight Ice]

iceman doesnt have to "hit" anybody. he just thinks about freezing an area, and its frozen. dont know how fast the torch is, but iceman has been clocked at over 120mph. (you see how i did that everybody? i admitted that i didnt know something about a character instead of assuming...) and his insides would freeze, even if he is of fire,johny's insides can be fozen, with a thought.:xmen:

[J.R.]

Johnny

[Torchd]

In the marvel encyclopedia it says that the torch can go like max speed 1400 mph and iceman 800 mph.So I think torch would win in a race.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, but Iceman apparently now has the power to travel instantaneously through moisture, like he did in the AOA, so depending what sort of environment they're fighting in that can basically mean teleportation.

[SLVRSR4]

Lucy you are right they did, of course, they also gave Doom superpowers and put him in the "Space Station" as well, so anything in the movie is basically nonapplicable here.
But yes it was in the film.


Come on here people, this is not a popularity contest, it's a fight, quit judgin by who you like the most and face the facts!

oh didn;t know that bobby wins then already voted for johnny though:(

[Varient]

Yeah, but Iceman apparently now has the power to travel instantaneously through moisture, like he did in the AOA, so depending what sort of environment they're fighting in that can basically mean teleportation.
It's a thought how they are using particle theory here.
Iceman w/o Morals to the death = Wins.
Iceman w/morals and all known feats at his command = wins.

Iceman as written off-hand by torchfans = loses.

Johnny Storm is overrated.
:)

[Jplaya2023]

they would cancel eachother out

[ddubbz08]

Underestimating Bobby,

while Johnny can go nova (*ooohhh nova!*), this does take him a second to do so.
Bobby can control any liquid and cause it to freeze, like say... the capillaries in johnny's brain? kinda hard to go nova when you are suffering a major brain anuerism.
Or Bobby could flash freeze Johnny into a block of ice. Storm can't light up if there is no oxygen for him to combust with.
Or flash freeze Torch's lungs, they shatter the next time he contracts his diaphragm to breethe, *snap crackle pop*
Johnny is hyped and touted all the time, but Bobby is hardly ever used to the full extent of his powers...Geek

[taskmaster]

idiot

[Midnight Ice]

Geek
you are just mad because he is right. :xmen:

[Guyverjay]

Hmm I'm going to go agant the grain here and say Torch. He jus needs to get a good bit of space between him and Ice man let rip with the nova blast.

[Torchd]

For anyone who actually read the comic does "without the use of his usual ice slide" mean he can fly? And did you get to see him fly? Thanks

[Torchd]

In the marvel encyclopedia on the iceman page it says "After years as a percieved lightweight, Iceman began experimenting with his abilities, adding mass to his slight frame and lifting himself high into the air without the aid of his customary ice slides"? So to the people who read comic where he did that was he flying and did you get to see him fly if so? Thanks

[Torchd]

bump

[Jplaya2023]

they would cancel eachother out

fire = ice

[DBM]

In the marvel encyclopedia on the iceman page it says "After years as a percieved lightweight, Iceman began experimenting with his abilities, adding mass to his slight frame and lifting himself high into the air without the aid of his customary ice slides"? So to the people who read comic where he did that was he flying and did you get to see him fly if so? Thanks

He does not fly. What they mean is that rather than using an ice slide he actually just adds to and expands his body.

[Torchd]

Like makes himself bigger?

[Midnight Ice]

like he did in Age of Apocalypse :xmen:

[Torchd]

I didn't get to read AoA.

[DBM]

Like makes himself bigger?

Yes. More or less

[Torchd]

Oh.

[SuGarRush]

I am not saying that Johnny is not powerful. He just would not beat Bobby.
I am being serious when I say I would love to see a scenario where Johnny actually beats Bobby realistically.

[Midnight Ice]

agreed :xmen:

[SuGarRush]

oh and is there an AoA tpb? I would love to get my hands on it, never read any of that stuff...

[Franklin Richards]

Johnny's reach is much further than Bobby's. That's where Bobby loses it.

Also everyone also talks about how Bobby can control the moisture in the air or someones body. So what? Johnny can control the temperature of air and moisture and someone's body. He could just as easily change the temperature around the water molecules that Bobby manipulates.

Basically what I'm saying is that all these arguments about the battle being waged on the micro level are useless. They both pretty much counter any sort of cheap shot that the other could give. The contest would be in the fighting.


And that's where I see Johnny winning from a distance.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gif

[SuGarRush]

well franky, i gotta ask, how do you get that johnny has a longer range than bobby?

[Franklin Richards]

Well... Johnny can fly and his Nova Flame range is much farther than anything I've seen Bobby do. I"m not saying I've seen Bobby do everything, but I've seen alot. Even since his Omega Mutant status and such.

Johnny is more maneuvarable <sp?>. Everything I've seen in 40 years of XMen and FF tells me that.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/torch.gif

[SuGarRush]

well you gotta remember that nova flame is not exactly something he throws around on a regular basis.
but I wonder if you are right. Does Johnny have a longer range?
Someone with more comics than me will have to answer this one. My collection of anything outside DeadPOol is rather limited...

[Bishop.]

Bobby all the way!

[Torchd]

bump

[Jplaya2023]

tie

[Franklin Richards]

So if Johnny removes all the moisture in the air, how will Iceman use his powers?


Or has Iceman been upgraded..... again.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Silicon Surfer]

When Doom stole the Surfers powers he lost a headon fight with the Torch and had to flee for his life. In that same storyline Johnny is preparing to kill
Doom with a "supernova flameout" if I remember correctly that is. They said that it would destroy half of the northern hemisphere. By about 5000 degrees Fahrenheit water is shattered into hydrogen and oxygen and burns very hot. Thus at well below Johnnys max any ice he hit with his flame would not only be forever destroyed it would burn and generate more heat. A high intensity blast of nova flame directed at the ocean should shatter much of it into fuel to destroy even more of it. Where that would end would depend on how much heat Johnny could generate. Torch can also raise his internal temperture without flaming on and should be able to reflexively counter any tampering by Bobby. Johnny exceeded Nova in sheer intensity of flame but Nova could maintain her flame far longer and was vastly more durable not to mention stronger. Johnny could hit 2 million degrees while Nova could hit 850,000 according to the Handbooks. The Handboods however listed Johnny mistakenly as having a max of 1,000,000 degrees.

[Tropico]

Almost 2 years dead and who revives this thread? You got it...JPLAYA!:mad:

[Silicon Surfer]

Almost 2 years dead and who revives this thread? You got it...JPLAYA!:mad:
We've got to have something to argue about and this is as good as anything :)

[LouFerignoDemon]

"100's below kelvan"? I'm not sure what you mean. You can't have temperatures below zero on the kelvin scale . . . if you just means he lowers the temperature by hundreds of kelvin, that's the same as saying he lowers it by hundreds of degrees celsius -- 1 kelvin equals 1 degree celsius, the only difference between the two scales is where the zero point is.


EDIT: Actually, 1 K is 0 degrees Celcius.

Although, if you go below 0 K, you reach something below Absolute Zero, which is impossible, because you'd have to be reducing energy from where there IS no energy.

[Tropico]

We've got to have something to argue about and this is as good as anything :)

Really?! You HAVE to have something to argue about? Whatever, man. To each his own. You should hop by the Anime forum and the Hulk Comics forum so you can get your dose and leave the Marvel for more constructive stuff.:(

[Jplaya2023]

So if Johnny removes all the moisture in the air, how will Iceman use his powers?


Or has Iceman been upgraded..... again.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

Iceman would just freeze the moisture in jonny's lungs making it a double TKO

[Varient]

So if Johnny removes all the moisture in the air, how will Iceman use his powers?


Or has Iceman been upgraded..... again.


:ff: :ff: :ff:
"remove" moisture?

[The_Vision]

I think Johnny would win

[LouFerignoDemon]

"remove" moisture?

Technically, Johnny should burn hot enough to literally burn moisture out of the air by separating it back into hydrogen and oxygen.

[Varient]

Technically, Johnny should burn hot enough to literally burn moisture out of the air by separating it back into hydrogen and oxygen.
okay.

of course if Bobby were limited to airborne moisture,... this could be a problem,...

[Jplaya2023]

Now that my brain is cookin, i remembered how bobby has fought someone with similiar "fire" power to jonny when he fights and owns pyro (Who can also create supernova's with his power) . So since he got that "xperience" fighting something like that, he should be able to beat the torch

[LouFerignoDemon]

I wouldn't even deem to place Pyro's raw firepower (forgive the unintentional pun) in the same league as Johnny. Pyro needs pre-existant flame to use his power, where Johnny generates his own, and in far higher degrees. And while Pyro can alter, resize, and all that jazz with heat and such, his flames, his flames are purely external. THAT can be shut down since not only does Pyro pretty much have to see his work to do it, but Bobby can just freeze him from behind, break his concentration, flood the area with moisture again, and crush him that way.

[XwolverineX]

Human Torch is sexy... I vote him. :O

[unstoppable]

I would normally say Draw, but now that Iceman is made of solid Ice, he'll just become a puddle.i think that they would cancel each other out

[Varient]

I wouldn't even deem to place Pyro's raw firepower (forgive the unintentional pun) in the same league as Johnny. Pyro needs pre-existant flame to use his power, where Johnny generates his own, and in far higher degrees. And while Pyro can alter, resize, and all that jazz with heat and such, his flames, his flames are purely external. THAT can be shut down since not only does Pyro pretty much have to see his work to do it, but Bobby can just freeze him from behind, break his concentration, flood the area with moisture again, and crush him that way.
Pyro in the Marvel Universe couldn't compare to the torch.

The one in the Xman movie has done better and was given better than the comic.

I'm surpised that it even came up.

[Varient]

I wouldn't even deem to place Pyro's raw firepower (forgive the unintentional pun) in the same league as Johnny. Pyro needs pre-existant flame to use his power, where Johnny generates his own, and in far higher degrees. And while Pyro can alter, resize, and all that jazz with heat and such, his flames, his flames are purely external. THAT can be shut down since not only does Pyro pretty much have to see his work to do it, but Bobby can just freeze him from behind, break his concentration, flood the area with moisture again, and crush him that way.
Pyro in the Marvel Universe couldn't compare to the torch.

The one in the Xman movie has done better and was given better than the comic.

I'm surpised that it even came up.

[unstoppable]

okay.

of course if Bobby were limited to airborne moisture,... this could be a problem,...and the torch is limited by oxygen

[LouFerignoDemon]

and the torch is limited by oxygen

What would be the point there? If Johnny split up all moisture into hydrogen and oxygen, then he actually INCREASES his fuel source. Not to mention hydrogen and oxygen are extremely combustible.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Pyro in the Marvel Universe couldn't compare to the torch.

The one in the Xman movie has done better and was given better than the comic.

I'm surpised that it even came up.

More than agreed. Leave it to JPlaya to bring such a mismatch up.

Pyro is pretty much a match in comparison to the napalm bomb that's the Human Torch.

[U.S War Machine]

This match has been discussed so many times...

It's a tie

[Aptman]

This match has been discussed so many times...

It's a tie


Well, I think its still discussed, because it really isn't a tie depending on how you look at it.

If you're comparing powers, Iceman has that it the bag a few thousand times over...he is more than just flesh and body...Johnny has no chance of actually ever killing Iceman while he is in Ice form...vaporize him if you want, its not enough...he can reform.
But...the way writers treat the characters, I would say Johnny has the upper hand because he experiments with his abilities, where as Iceman uses what comes easiest to him mostly IMO.
I really doubt we'll ever get a comic where they fight all out without some handycap on one of them(like being mind controlled, or one of them wants to hurt the other one, but the other one doesn't want to hurt him).

[Godman]

Not entirely true. Johnny's body produces heat and fire, to such an extent that he was able to stay aflame underwater, sans oxygen, for a short period. If Bobby began to freeze any part of Johnny's body, Johnny would just increase his heat output to counter it.
people forget that water consists of oxygen too so it would be in storm's favor

[Anubis]

Why??? :confused:

[Silver Knight]

I think Human Torch would win.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yay for the vs. forum!

[A.Cho.P.o.P.]

people forget that water consists of oxygen too so it would be in storm's favor

Water consists of oxygen but fire needs oxygen to keep burning so it's not really an advantage here...I think Iceman would win cus ice takes time to melt and while Johnny is melting the ice around him Bobby has time to shoot more and more crap at him

[Anubis]

Seriously, why?

[Genesis 1.0]

Meh, they both have awesome feats but I'll go Bobby probably because of the fact that his powers are also defensive, which would buy him time to figure out the best way to defeat Johnny. Look, neither of these guys are Marvel's best minds but I'll say Bobby's a little bit smarter.

Iceman

[A.Cho.P.o.P.]

Johnny loses for having the lamest line whenever he turns on his powers.

[Mary Jane Watson]

Johnny Storm.

[Anubis]

Seriously, why?

:o...

[Chunin]

The Ice Man Cometh.

[Ultra Lantern]

Human Torch would win.

[Anubis]

Seriously, why?

:o...

WTF!!! :argh:

[Ultra Lantern]

Johnny loses for having the lamest line whenever he turns on his powers.


That's not an excuse for him to lose.

[dc4449]

Tough one, but I'd go with Ice Man. I think he could put out the Flame quick while Ice can take a bit to melt, much more than snow.
I think that to.Iceman can melt human torch.:barf:

[Rylvan]

Johnny. You can melt ice, but you can't freeze fire.

[Hound55]

Don't forget that water also contains two hydrogen molecules as well... So I think between that and the oxygen, Johnny Storm pretty much has this locked up... :o

[DarkSovereignty]

isn't bobby drake like a level five mutant? his power, while initially the ability to generate ice, is actually the ability to control energy. any physicist would say that on a molecular level there is no such thing as cold, merely a lack of hear. so iceman can actually control heat in order to generate cold. I'd say that gives him an advantage over storm.