Bruce's Legacy

[Batman the 6th]

Besides Dick Grayson and Helena Kyle, what other children did/does Bruce have?
I thought I read he had like 2 other daughters and another son. Can somone tell me their names and mother? I know Dick and Helena's mother names already.

[Batman the 6th]

Also, Dick I guess has a son James. Does Dick have other children? Do any of the other kids have kids of theri own? Besides Dick, do any of the other children have half siblings fron their mothers? I would really like to know

[Mr. Socko]

He had a son from Talia.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Terry Mcguiness too.

[MattXG]

Terry Mcguiness too.
Did you get that from JLU? I just happened to watch that show tonight and it was an episode that explains how Terry is actually Bruce's son.

Was actually a good watch too....:eek: :up:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yup........I'm officially in the Terry bandwagon now......I used to hate him before......but now I like him. And it's pretty cool too......Terry isn't exactly Bruce's clone.....he's really Bruce's son.

[The Question]

Besides Dick Grayson and Helena Kyle, what other children did/does Bruce have?
I thought I read he had like 2 other daughters and another son. Can somone tell me their names and mother? I know Dick and Helena's mother names already.


Umm, Huntress isn't Batman's daughter. She was pre crisis but that was retconned. Now she's Helena Bertinelli. She does subconsiously look to Batman as a father and they do have a relationshp similar to that of a father and his rebelious daughter. And Bruce suposedly had a kid with Talia he doesn't know about, whos about three now. But the jury is still out on wether or not that's still in continuity.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Really.......a kid with Talia......when did that pop up........heh.......or rather, out.....

Seriously though, I know it's been made very clear that Bruce and Talia have made love........but a kid?

[The Question]

There was a 1989 one shot called Son of The Demon, in which Talia had Bruces kid without him knowing about it. No one is sure if that is in continuity or not cause the kid hasn't been mentioned since, but there hasn't been anything to flat out contradict it. I think Ra's, who isn't really dead, has taken the kid to Tibet to train him to either be his heir or take over as Batman. Or both. The kid would probably be just a little over three years old by now.

[Spidey-Bat]

The kid is out of continuity. He appeared in Kingdom Come I believe.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Wouldn't Talia use the kid as means to force herself into Bruce's life......? Bruce wants nothing to do with her.......so I think she would try and use the kid as a way to get into Bruce's life.

[The Question]

Oh, Talia has gotten over Bruce. I think Ra's (who is still alive, just in hiding) is training the kid to take Bruce's place as a more proactive Batman. And by proactive I mean Azbats with an I.Q. above 95.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hmmmm..........well, it's out of continuity isn't it?

[The Question]

Some say it is. Some say it isn't. There hasn't been anything in the comics to suggest it is or isn't. It just hasn't been mentioned. I think it either is or should be.

[Spidey-Bat]

He's out of continuity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al_Xu%27ffasch

[The Question]

DAMMIT!!!!!! Well, I guess they could always put it back into continuity. It would just be such a coll dynamic for Batman to find out that Ra's has been seacretly raisning his son.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I actually like the whole Terry thing.

[Batman the 6th]

What about a Carli Connors. Sorry, I have a bad memeroy and don't remember where I read this, but it is said that she is Bruce's daughter. What's Talia's son's name. My guess would be Bruce jr., but there was a Bruce jr. with a Kathy Kane I guess. So Terry is another son of his? Is Batgirl his daughter 2? Just kidding. And in the recent comics, is she Gordon's daughter or Alfred's niece, like in Batman Forever? And Helena Kyle is Helena Bertinelli now? Oh well, I liked Birds of Prey, even though it was short lived. If Carli is his daughter, then is she older than Talia's son, or even younger. So Dick must be the oldest, unless Carli is older.:batman: What about Dick's children? Or Carli's?

[Spidey-Bat]

What about a Carli Connors. Sorry, I have a bad memeroy and don't remember where I read this, but it is said that she is Bruce's daughter. What's Talia's son's name. My guess would be Bruce jr., but there was a Bruce jr. with a Kathy Kane I guess. So Terry is another son of his? Is Batgirl his daughter 2? Just kidding. And in the recent comics, is she Gordon's daughter or Alfred's niece, like in Batman Forever? And Helena Kyle is Helena Bertinelli now? Oh well, I liked Birds of Prey, even though it was short lived. If Carli is his daughter, then is she older than Talia's son, or even younger. So Dick must be the oldest, unless Carli is older.:batman: What about Dick's children? Or Carli's?


Talia and Bruce's son is named something Arabic. Check the link I provided above.

Barbara Gordon (formerly Batgirl, now Oracle) is Commissioner Gordon's niece. In the animated show, she was his daughter. In Batman & Robin, she was Alfred's niece.

Helena Kyle is pre-Crisis Huntress. After Crisis on Infinite Earths, all the alternate Earths were scrapped. Her origin was changed to the daughter of a mob boss who's mother was killed by rival mobs. The show 'Birds of Prey' used the pre-Crisis origin.

[The Question]

What about a Carli Connors. Sorry, I have a bad memeroy and don't remember where I read this, but it is said that she is Bruce's daughter. What's Talia's son's name. My guess would be Bruce jr., but there was a Bruce jr. with a Kathy Kane I guess. So Terry is another son of his? Is Batgirl his daughter 2? Just kidding. And in the recent comics, is she Gordon's daughter or Alfred's niece, like in Batman Forever? And Helena Kyle is Helena Bertinelli now? Oh well, I liked Birds of Prey, even though it was short lived. If Carli is his daughter, then is she older than Talia's son, or even younger. So Dick must be the oldest, unless Carli is older.:batman: What about Dick's children? Or Carli's?


Bruce's son's name is Ibn al Xu'ffasch. That's arabic for "son of the bat."

[Batman the 6th]

How the **** do u pronounce it?

[Batman the 6th]

Hey Spidey-Bat, that doesn't make sense. Nightstar would be his niece, considering her father is his brother. That's messed up.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, actually........in the comics Babs is Jim's daughter.......she calls him daddy and all. I figure Jim is the only father she's ever known.......and he's always treated her like a daughter. I guess it's like the polar opposite of Bruce and Dick........where she and Jim openly admit the fact that they are (even though Uncle and Niece) are father and daugther......whereas Bruce and Dick seem to always ignore the fact that they are in dact father and son. It's kinda crazy to look at it that way.

Terry is Bruce's son.......and I'm betting so is Matt. So, the Wayne legace......as far as the Animated Series goes........is already solidifed and set.

[Batman the 6th]

Wait, now who's Matt. Bruce has to learn how to use a condom. Not saying he can't afford child support, but dude, u still use it. Oh, is Matt Terry's brother? Or a new guy. Can't they give him at least 1 daughter?

[Timstuff]

I love Batman Beyond, but the concept of Bruce being Terry's dad doesn't really sit right with me, especially the way they went about it. Being someone's father is about more than just sharing half of someone's genetic code. It wasn't even Bruce's sperm that concieved Terry, but rather Warren McGinnise's that had been re-programmed to be the same as Bruce's. It all seems kind of convoluted to me, and I liked it better when the father/son bond between Terry and Bruce was entirely metaphysical. Bah, I'm going into a rant now. :p

Anyway, on the topic of Bruce's legacy, I had some ideas that could maybe work as a graphic novel or something (consider it an "elseworlds tale" if you must). First off, it takes place in the future, and Bruce has finally retired from being Batman, and he actually now has three kids: Two sons, and a daughter. But, they are from two seperate mothers. His first born son is Ibn al Xu'ffasch, who was mothered by Talia Al Ghul. His second born son and daugher are twins, and they were mothered by Selina Kyle. I'll tentatively call them "Terry and Helena", just for this conversation cuz I'm too lazy to come up with their real names right now.

Ibn's childhood was much different from that of his half brother and sister. He was kept a secret from Bruce Wayne, and was raised by Ra's Al Ghul as the heir to the League of Shadows. Not having his real father around definately lead to a troubled childhood for him, and when you are raised by Ra's and Talia, it doesn't help. He's devoted himself to the league just as much as his grandfather was, and will not allow himself to be distracted from it's mission.

"Terry and Helena" on the other hand, were raised by Selina Kyle for about 10 years, without Bruce knowing about them. But when he learned of their existance, he took responsibility and decided to support the three of them and had them moved into wayne mannor. Because of this revelation, Bruce found himself having to hang up his cape and cowl to make time for his family. But when the twins reach their teen years, they discover a secret that changes their lives, and the future of the Wayne family. They learn that their parents were once the near mythical Batman and Catwoman, and with this knowledge, they plead with their parents to train them as their sucsessors, and although initially wanting to shield them from the terrible physical and mental dangers of the vigelante lifestyle, Bruce and Selina see the chaos that brews in a Gotham with no protector, and cautiousely agree.

The new Batman and Catwoman appear in Gotham City, which has been heroless for nearly a decade. But their brother, Ibn al Xu'ffasch has plans for Gotham City of his own. He and Talia put two-and-two together, and it becomes quite obviouse to them who Gotham's new protectors are. Ibn finds himself being consumed by his resentment of Bruce Wayne and envy of his half siblings, and eventually, his plan is set; he will destroy the city that drew his father away from him, and amidst the rubble, he will eliminate the siblings who took his birthright that he has grown to hate despite never having met them. What ensues is a massive battle, and two rising heros being torn between their duty to save Gotham and their compassion and sorrow for their long-lost half brother, who is now bent on killing them. The fate of a city, and the world hangs in the balance, as the three siblings settle their differences.

Heheheh, sorry if that seems a little "out there". But hey, if it does, just think "elseworlds". :p

[Spidey-Bat]

How the **** do u pronounce it?

Ib-in all Zoo-faash (my guess)

[Batman the 6th]

Timstuff, is Ibn older than the twins? I think you should introduce Carli Connors as Bruce's other daughter, maybe even Dick. Then everyone fights each other.

[Spidey-Bat]

Heheheh, sorry if that seems a little "out there". But hey, if it does, just think "elseworlds". :p

I like it:up:

[Timstuff]

Timstuff, is Ibn older than the twins? I think you should introduce Carli Connors as Bruce's other daughter, maybe even Dick. Then everyone fights each other.

Yeah, Ibn would be about 3-5 years older than the twins. Who's Carli Connors? I'm not sure I've heard of her. And yeah, Dick Grayson would probably be in there too.

[Batman the 6th]

I'm not sure where I heard about Carli Connors, but I'm still searching. And who is the oldest to youngest. Is Ibn or Dick older? Which one of the twins comes first?

[Cats]

Would be interesting to have Ibn al Xu'ffasch find out the truth about his real father in his teen years, and for him to leave Ra's dreams of an heir (as Bruce had) to seek his true heritage in Gotham. He's about the only one I wouldn't mind taking over the mantle of the bat - other than Dick Grayson (who'd probably be quite an aged man by then as well).

[Timstuff]

I'm not sure where I heard about Carli Connors, but I'm still searching. And who is the oldest to youngest. Is Ibn or Dick older? Which one of the twins comes first?

I'm not sure how it is in the comics, but in my story Dick Grayson would probably be about 10 years older than Ibn. As for the twins, "Helena" would probably have been born first.

[Batman the 6th]

I still didn't find anything about Carli, but I found 2 stories that might interest ppl.
Go to yahoo, not sure about google, Search "Bruce Wayne's Family", and go to "Scions of the dark knight". Another one is Genom Corporation: The SMILE Project. These stories may not be on the first page when u search 4 them, but if not they are on the second or 3rd. I didn't read all of Genom Corp., but I'll see if Carli is mentioned. It's also confusing in that story, let me know if it is to u guys.

[Batman the 6th]

I just found it. Now search "Bruce Wayne's Family Tree", on the first page go to "Hero-My World" It says stuff about Carli Connors being nine years younger than Helena. I think you could add it to ur story Spidey-Bat. It might say her mother, I just skimmed the story, I'll go back and let ya know.

[Batman the 6th]

Hero-My World
It all starts with Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne:

Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle fell in love and had a child named Helena Kyle, Bruce didn't know he had a daughter so Selina raised Helena by herself. When Helena was sixteen, Selina Kyle was murdered and Helena went to live with Bruce Wayne's protege, Barbara Gordon. Barbara Gordon raised Helena until she was of age and they formed a team of superheroes. When Helena was 23, Barbara adopted another orphan, Dinah Lance.

Months, almost a year later, Barbara married a man named Adam Harrison, a metahuman like Helena and Dinah, Adam Harrison and Barbara had a nice loving relationship until Adam was murdered by an old enemy. Little did Helena, Barbara, and Dinah know that supernatural forces came into play. Adam returned as a guardian angel called an Annex, who would help people with paranormal powers. Because Barbara was paralyzed, she couldn't have any children, but Adam's bosses, called the Elders, healed her and impregnated her with a son.

When Barbara was pregnant, Bruce Wayne sent young Carli Connors to Helena Kyle. Carli Connors was Helena's half sister on her father's side, about nine years younger than Helena. I cut out stuff that didn't relate to Helena or Carli.

[Batman the 6th]

I still didn't find anything about Carli, but I found 2 stories that might interest ppl.
Go to yahoo, not sure about google, Search "Bruce Wayne's Family", and go to "Scions of the dark knight". Another one is Genom Corporation: The SMILE Project. These stories may not be on the first page when u search 4 them, but if not they are on the second or 3rd. I didn't read all of Genom Corp., but I'll see if Carli is mentioned. It's also confusing in that story, let me know if it is to u guys. I know I already posted this, so ignore it. It may confuse you, because I pushed a wrong button(or 2 or 3) and it reposted it. Sorry 4 the inconvience(think I spelt it right?)

[Batman the 6th]

Scions of the Dark Knight:

An Expansion of the Wayne Family Tree

by C. Richard Davies.

II: Dick Grayson

The facts of Dick Grayson's parentage have been told elsewhere; this article has nothing to add to it but the author's belief that Wayne was unaware of his relationship to young Dick at the time of the Grayson murders. It is the author's conviction that if Bruce had known that he had a son at that time, nothing would have stopped him from acknowledging Dick as his child and adopting him -- not the shame the revelation of the affair would have brought on his family name, not the legal difficulties, perhaps not even *****' wishes.

As this did not happen, it does not seem likely that Bruce realized that Dick was his own son until after younger man was grown, if then. Dick remained a teenager in the comics for nearly thirty years after his introduction; in the real world, however, he grew to manhood and went off to college in 1949, exactly as Superman & Batman: Generations portrayed him.

And it is at that point we will momentarily leave him.

III: Bruce Wayne Jr.

Bruce Wayne Jr. was born in early 1950 to Bruce Wayne Sr. and and his first wife, Kathy Kane. And that fact requires elaboration.

Kathy Kane was a cousin to Bruce Wayne, a somewhat closer cousin -- no pun intended -- than their mutual kinsman, Bob Kane. (She was the granddaughter of Bruce's maternal grandfather's younger brother.) Independently wealthy, she decided to pursue a life of thrills by imitating the Bat-Man as Batwoman. Eventually, the two crimefighters admitted to a mutual attraction for each other and were married.

The adventures of Batwoman (and her protege Betty Kane, aka Batgirl, of whom more later) were not revealed until 1956, and the fact that she married Wayne was not revealed until 1960 -- and then it was only stated in an "imaginary story" alleged to be set in the future. (Shades of May-Day Parker.) The reasons for this obfuscation are fairly obvious. While Bruce Wayne enjoyed the confusion that the comic book accounts of his life provoked in the criminal underworld, he would not for one second have permitted any truths about his home life to be published where someone could deduce his actual existence. He had lost his parents to violent crime; he woud do whatever he had to do to protect his wife and son.



Kathy Kane entered the lives of Batman and Robin in 1946, nearly ten years before her first published appearance. And by the time the stories about her were written and drawn, the marriage was over, having ended in divorce. As noted above, Bruce wanted to protect his family from the violence of the world; as noted above that, Kathy wanted a life of thrills and danger. After she recovered from childbirth, it was her intention to return to action as Batwoman, alongside the Bat-Man, but Bruce refused to let her. What from his point of view were perfectly reasonable precautions seemed like shackles to her. Ultimately, he was forced to let her go; she may well have threatened to expose him if he did not grant her a divorce.

Bruce Wayne Jr. was probably only three or four years old when his parents separated. It's possible that the lack of an abiding love interest in his later life was due to a mild distrust of all women that he developed after his mother essentially abandoned him. But that may be too Freudian an analysis of the dynamics of this most Jungian family.

In any event, by 1956 the publishers of Batman's adventures were informed that it was now acceptible for them to include a Batwoman character in them, and provided with information about her. This permission did not come because Wayne wished his ex-wife injury (at least not consciously) but because he could use the stories to further obscure the truth: that he had married a second time.

IV: Helena Wayne

In 1955, while Bruce Wayne was attending the wedding of a former fiancee (one of several, both fiancees and weddings) he was subjected to a psychoactive gas designed by Johnathan Crane, a criminal who sometimes went by the alias "the Scarecrow". (However, Crane probably did not wear a costume which made him resemble a scarecrow; a descendant of Ichabod Crane, he would probably have been called a scarecrow even if he wasn't obsessed with fear and its effects.)

The attack caused Wayne to begin to have hallucinations in which he was alone in the world; this was perhaps his greatest fear, one which had its roots in early childhood and which had been exacerbated ty the end of his marriage. In his delusional state, he could not perceive his allies; his attempts to contact Grayson, Clark Kent and other members of the Justice Society went unanswered, at least from his perspective. Thus, he was forced to turn to an enemy: Selina Kyle, the Catwoman.

At that point, Ms. Kyle was jailed, but because Wayne regarded her as the most moral of his criminal nemeses (for she had never killed, to his knowledge) he used his connections to secure her early release in exchange for her help in defeating the Scarecrow. And she did help him, not only to face his enemy but to admit the real sources of his fears. There had always been an attraction between the two of them, as well ...

Selina was not driven by the competitive desires which drove Kathy from Wayne; her career and "adventures" had been motivated by the necessity of survival after she fled her abusive first marriage for a life in the underworld of the Middle East.[2] In contrast to that, a secure (if somewhat constrained) life as the wife of a billionaire must have seemed less like the promise of heaven on Earth than its fulfilment. She was a kind and good stepmother to her husband's eldest son, and when her daughter Helena was born in 1957, her happiness seemed complete.

And so it would remain for many years.

V: Rick Grayson

Dick Grayson was not an idle student, but he wasn't an ideal student either. He was compelled to hide his considerable intellectual and physical gifts from the world in order to minimize the possibility that someone might identify him as the fictional character whose name he bore. Furthermore, he was forced to pull many all-nighters during his college years in order to fight crime or weird menaces, instead of using those all-nighters to do homework and write papers.


Instead, what seems to have happened is that, like his father(-figure), Dick Grayson seems to have stumbled into a brief and unhappy marriage with a member of the extended Kane family.

Betty Kane was the daughter of Kathy Kane's younger brother, who had married the grand-daughter of one Aaron Stemple of Seattle, Washington. Betty's older brother William[3] became one of the first agents of the Bureau of Investigation (the predessor of the FBI), but Betty was drawn into crimefighting in a much more direct manner when her aunt drafted her to serve as Batgirl, the "Robin" to her "Batman".

There had been some junior-league romance between Robin and Batgirl, but as Betty had not yet been thirteen years old when she met, nothing actually came of it. However, when as adults they met again, something sparked between them. Perhaps it was nothing more than the inevitable outcome of the repressed, almost monastic life that Dick had led up to this point. Whatever it was, it was enough to get them into bed together, and enough to lead them to the offices of a justice of the peace, and enough to keep them together for nine months ... but not enough to hold them together for much longer than that.

Richard Grayson Jr. (or Rick Grayson, as he was usually called) was largely raised by his mother, with few visits from his father. As Dick knew that he was eventually going to take on the identity of the Batman, and that his life would be dangerous not only for him but for anyone close to him, it seemed like the best thing.

VI: Bruce Wayne, Sr. (continued)

By 1959, Wayne had been fighting crime for a quarter of a century. He had long since avenged his parents, through discovering the identity of their killer and accidentally (or perhaps not...) setting in motion events that caused Joe Chill to be killed, and similarly destroying the crime boss who had hired Chill to do the deed. He was in his early forties, and retirement beckoned.

Dick became the second Batman, and Bruce Jr. soon followed his lead as the second Robin. Bruce Sr. watched their activities, either as a team, independently, or as members of the Justice League (in Dick's case) and the original group of Titans (Bruce was a founding member), and felt no regrets.

He had a wife who loved him, and a daughter to raise. He had all that he could ask for of life.

VII: Dick Grayson (continued)

In 1969, according to the second issue of Superman & Batman: Generations, the second Batman and Robin team once again battled the criminal known as Joker Junior. By the end of this adventure, this criminal was revealed to be the original Joker in disguise ... who managed to kill Robin. What had actually happened was that his latest trap claimed the life of Batman II (Dick Grayson), but in order to preserve the myth of the Batman's invincibility, Bruce Wayne Jr. switched costumes with his partner's corpse.



But ignoring the morbidity of the situation, one fact screams for attention: in one storyline, Robin lived. This leads the author to the conclusion, based on the additional facts that an adult Dick Grayson continued to play a role in accounts of the Batman after the story in which he was supposed to have died, that he was still alive when Bruce Wayne Jr. brought him out of the chamber of death, having switched costumes.

Grayson was critically injured, probably comatose, his life dangling by the proverbial thread. But he also received the best medical care in the world (possibly even exposure to Amazon medical technology) and began a long, slow process of recovery. And Bruce Wayne Jr. had to assume the mantle of the Batman himself, much earlier than anyone had planned. Nor was this the last tragedy which would be visited on him during his career under the hood of the Batman.

By 1975, Dick had almost recovered from his crippling injuries, and it is possible that Bruce Jr. offered to return the Batman identity to him. But if so, Dick declined the offer. His reasons are obvious: while he had acquired a certain additional longevity in the 1940s, along with the most of the Justice Society and certain of their associates, his injuries had taken several years off his lifespan ... and he was already older than Bruce Sr. had been when he retired.

So, wearing a slightly more mature (and not coincidentally armored) costume, Dick became Robin again and served as a member of the Justice Society. He also finally finished his law degree, and served as a United States Ambassador.

VIII: Bruce Wayne, Sr. (continued)

In 1976, Selina Wayne was contacted by a member of her old gang, one "Silky" Cernak, who blackmailed her into returning to crime with photographic evidence that she had murdered a police officer. (This photograph was apparently doctored.) During the robbery which ensued, Selina Wayne was fatally shot and died in her husband's arms.

It was devastating -- not only to Bruce Wayne Sr, but also to his children. Selina had been part of the glue that bound the small family together, and with her absence everything began to fall apart, beginning with Bruce Wayne's complete withdrawal from public life. Comparisons to his distant relative, Charles Foster Kane, abounded.

But after that there was nothing. His friends and relations made attempts to discover his wherabouts and activities, but half-hearted ones at best; they all knew that if a man of Wayne's talents does not desire to be found, he won't be found.

There were speculations that Wayne had begun a new war on crime, beginning with the Si-Fan. (His son had battled a minor agent of the Lord of Strange Deaths, one Ra's al-Ghul, and Wayne could not have been unaware of the career of Shang-Chi around this very time.) Others suggested other situations; he had been captured, and his DNA extracted to provide the basis for genetically enhanced super-soldiers. Some even speculated that he had perished at the hands of some young criminal unaware of who he was killing, even as his parents had died. But this seems unlikely; predators usually have a better sense of their prey than to attack something which preys on them.

IX: Helena Wayne (continued)

Helena's reaction to her mother's death was precisely what one might expect of a scion of the Dark Knight -- she sought to avenge. Yet another part of her motives must have been to justify her mother's criminal past to herself. Why else, one wonders, would she choose the nomme de guerre of the Huntress -- a name used by an earlier costumed figure who had been both crimefighter and criminal at various times?

Alone, she brought "Silky" Cernak to justice. She worked with her older brother on a few cases, even fighting a younger, more violent Catwoman who apparently had no relation to her mother.[4] She also joined the Justice Society, around the same time that Supergirl did.

In an attempt to maintain the fiction that the Justice Society and the Justice League existed on two different, parallel worlds, the authors of the Justice Society stories portrayed Supergirl as "Power Girl" -- using a different outfit and an even more different personality. In fact, the agressive personality which Kara exhibited as Power Girl was probably more due to her anger that she had never been invited to join the Justice League, of which her cousin was a member. Helena and Kara became very close friends during this period. Very close friends. But I digress.

In any event, Helena Wayne served as an honored member of the Justice Society (and also assisted its offshoot, Infinity Incorporated) for the rest of her life.

XI: Rick Grayson (continued)

Rick Grayson became a private investigator. During one of his first cases, around 1980, he was contacted by a mysterious being called Raven who guided him to form a new group of Titans (the original team having disbanded after most of its members grew up.) Despite his insecurities, which at one point led him to become a member of a religious cult known as the Church of Brother Blood, he proved to be a capable leader for this team, which he led under the alias "Nightwing".

It would seem that one of his descendants, Amanda Stemple Grayson, eventually married Ambassador Spock of the planet Vulcan. Ironically, this may not have been the first time that a member of the Grayson clan wed an extraterrestrial, for it has been alleged that Rick Grayson married the Tamaranian princess known as Starfire, and had a child who went by the name Nightstar Grayson. Whether this woman was the ancestor of Amanda Grayson, and indeed much else of Rick Grayson's life and career, remains uncertain at this time.

XII: Dick Grayson and Helena Wayne (continued)

Shortly after his fiftieth birthday, Dick Grayson decided to retire as Robin, and gave his blessing for Bruce Wayne Jr.'s protege Jason Todd to take the role. It was to be one of the last times he spoke civilly with his old friend.

In July of 1984, during the so-called Crisis on Infinite Earths, Dick Grayson and Helena Wayne were killed battling extradimensional invaders. There was not enough left of either of them, nor of Kole, the young member of Rick Grayson's Titans who had come to their assistance, to bury.

XIII: Bruce Wayne Jr. (continued)

In fairly quick succession, his step-mother was murdered, his father vanished, and his brother (in spirit, if not knowingly in blood) and sister were killed. There are also reports which indicated that his biological mother may also have been killed in the mid-seventies. Bruce Wayne Sr. and Dick Grayson were defined by their tragedies, but not over-powered by them. The same could not, unfortunately be said for Bruce Wayne Jr. He did what many people have done after suffering such repeated tragedies, and closed himself off from further relationships, driving away his remaining friends in order to protect them ... and to protect himself from the pain of losing them.

He'd left the Justice League in 1982 because he felt that they weren't doing enough, and formed a team of Outsiders. Shortly after the Crisis, he abandoned them when they chose to go their own way rather than his. Shortly after that, he severed his relationship with Jason Todd during the dark god Darkseid's attempt to destroy Earth's heroes, and bluntly refused any role in the new Justice League formed at that time.[5]

XIV: And Beyond

Time passed. Bruce (with his father gone, and surely dead by now, no one called him Junior anymore) let control over his family fortune and the companies it supported pass into more corrupt hands.

Time passed. As cyberpunk authors had warned, governments continued to let the powers entrusted to them by their citizens slip into the control of multinational corporations who owed allegiance to no one.

Time passed. Some heroes rolled with these changes, as shown by Justice Incorporated, the newest incarnation of the Justice Society and League. But Bruce never even answered their call.

Time passed.

And a young man named Terry McGinnis met Bruce Wayne, and another scion of the Dark Knight was born ...

Footnotes:
Also, I disliked the idea that Bruce Jr.'s mother was Selina Kyle, since as I point out, when Batman II and Robin II appeared in the original stories, Robin II's mother was Batwoman. So I came up with a workaround that would also let me have Selina Kyle as Bruce's eventual wife.

The "draft" Batman mentioned here was brought to my attention in Bob Kane's obituary.
I know this is long, but I also had to edit alot of this timeline because It was too long to fit in here, and I was asked to shorten it. Hope it all makes sense.

[IzzyJG99]

Right now inside comics...I see it this way.

Dick Grayson/Nightwing came into Bruce's life when Bruce was not of a Fatherly age and one could consider Dick and Bruce being brothers. Bruce the big brother in the spotlight and Dick the younger brother off in the shadows wanting to be like his big brother. Batman himself said it "Dick was meant for the center ring."

Tim Drake/Robin III. As far as I am concerned when Tim's Father died and even before that Bruce considered Tim his son. In the comic book continuity he will be the one to become Batman when it is Bruce's time to step down. Tim had something Dick and Jason Todd never had....he's just as smart if not more smart than Bruce Wayne.

As for Jason Todd. I'm not quite sure how one would describe that relationship or how Bruce say Jason. I think maybe Bruce had the intentions of making Jason into another Dick Grayson and perhaps saw a replacement for himself in Jason, but he wasn't the right one for the Bat-Mantel.

Of course that leaves us with Barbara Gordon. I personally see his relationship with her as something much like Dick and Bruce's brotherly relationship. The little sister that the big brother so desperately wanted to protect.

Eitherway you look at it....Tim, Barbara and Dick along with Alfred...they're his family blood or not. They are his legacy. Long after Batman falls they will be there. You can guarantee Tim the moment Batman falls and is buried...Tim will return to the cave and put on the cape and cowl. In my eye he is the only one qualified for it. Dick is, but he's grown beyond that. He has become Nightwing and although he will always be in the shadow of the bat he probably feels incapable of replacing Bruce.

Now we get to Terry McGuiness, or as I call him now Terry Wayne. Terry Wayne sounds better. I think that was a neat little thing that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini thought up. It breathed life into a possible long running Batman Beyond comic. Though, personally Terry doesn't have the brains to be Batman. Even after being Batman for 15 years (Epilouge states it) he's still relying on 100+ year old Bruce to give him a path to walk along and just show up to beat up on people. There is potential there. That episode made me sad because you see Bruce old...bald...nearly crippled. It made me feel very sad to see him that way. I think it should be a rule that they shouldn't show heroes like that. After so many decades of seeing him strong powerful and immortal it's just...so sad. I honestly can't imagine a World without Batman and Bruce Wayne in it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I think that was the point.....seeing Bruce like that. Struggling to open a bottle of pills, it shows his mortality.....he could choose to escape it, or fend it off.....but he accepts his flaws and he accepts his mortality. Wheareas, Ra's.......he fears mortality. He fears age........he fears death. He may not even know it......but he is. Bruce, is not. In the end, Bruce is really not afraid.

Terry seemed kinda lost.......he seems to be at a cross road in his life, perhaps the same one that Bruce was at Terry's age.......and maybe the same one that Dick once was at.........and Terry understood what path he MUST choose. He figures out that his destiny is to carry the mantle of the Bat........so, we can only imagine what happens when he truly accepts it.

Besides, your right IzzyJG99........Terry has potential. I mean, he is Bruce's son.....so who's to say that he can't develop to be as smart as Bruce?

I think Timm and Dini did make a great move......because now, they've won over a lot of Bat-fans....and I'm sure fans would enjoy it being adpated to the comics. To be sort of, Later in contiuity.......to explore the DCU's future.....and when I say future, I mean like 60 years in the future....not 10 or 20 years.

[Timstuff]

If Batman Beyond ever does get "re-made" as a comic series, I'd want them to come up with a less-convoluted explanation for Terry being Bruce's son, if they even have that. But I think that the father/son relationship they had was alot more meaningful when they were simply strangers that met by accident, and eventually the bond formed between them. Making them be genetically father and son really undermines the point of the show IMO.

[ColdPlayer]

btw, when and how the helll did jason todd come back?

[Spidey-Bat]

btw, when and how the helll did jason todd come back?

It was sometime after HUSH when Riddler stole his body. He was ressurected and is now the Red Hood. How he was ressurected, we don't know yet. Since this isn't Marvel, we don't have a long list of possibilities.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah.....I'm still waiting out to see how it plays out. I doubt it's really him.....but we'll have to wait and see if we're getting our jock pulled on by DC.

I think making it convulted was the only way it would work.....plus adding the destiny thing too......I think they just made Batman Beyond a good thing by making him his son. Otherwise, it might have gone down in history as a marketing ploy (Spider-Man in a Bat-suit!!).....instead, with the help of Batman Beyond: ROTJ as well, they gave the character meaning......and made him worthwile I think. So, he'll hold a place in Bat-fans minds......instead of a sick part of their stomach.

I do agree though.....if they ever decide to do a "FUTURE CONTINUITY" series.....they might have to do things a little differently in how he and Bruce are Father and Son.....like maybe making him the son of Talia as well or something.......i dunno.......would be fun to work on as a creator.

[Batman the 6th]

I like the idea of Talia being his mother, btw, does Bruce ever meet Ibn zuuku whatever? What happens?

[IzzyJG99]

Yeah.....I'm still waiting out to see how it plays out. I doubt it's really him.....but we'll have to wait and see if we're getting our jock pulled on by DC.

I think making it convulted was the only way it would work.....plus adding the destiny thing too......I think they just made Batman Beyond a good thing by making him his son. Otherwise, it might have gone down in history as a marketing ploy (Spider-Man in a Bat-suit!!).....instead, with the help of Batman Beyond: ROTJ as well, they gave the character meaning......and made him worthwile I think. So, he'll hold a place in Bat-fans minds......instead of a sick part of their stomach.

I do agree though.....if they ever decide to do a "FUTURE CONTINUITY" series.....they might have to do things a little differently in how he and Bruce are Father and Son.....like maybe making him the son of Talia as well or something.......i dunno.......would be fun to work on as a creator.

Bruce Timm even said that Batman Beyond was made to sell toys. I think this little tie-off with Terry being Bruce's son was to make up for that and have a decent thing come out of that arc. I see a lot of little "holes" in Terry's situation that could prove to be the making of his own comic book series in the future. For example we all want to know "Will this Batman have a Robin?" Probably. His little brother by the time Terry finds out he's Buce's son would be about 23. He would, for all intents and purposes, be the son of Bruce, too. Genetic breeding material and all that. Anyway my point is there is potential for Batman Beyond. It's a great concept, really.

I think Batman Beyond got held back and cancelled because it came along at a bad time. It came AFTER the DC comics/Kids WB explosion of the mid to late 90's. It came along during the anime overthrow of Kids WB. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a GOOD anime, but this crap on TV now a days is just bonkers crapola. A new Batman Beyond series with more classic continuity and plot put into it would find a good place on Cartoon Network right after JLU, or after JLU is done. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I can't stand "The Batman" being the only one on TV. That's just...christ.

[Timstuff]

Am I the only one who thinks that Terry being Bruce's son was a bad move? I think it really undermines what made their relationship meaningful. Terry and Bruce were complete strangers that met by coincidence, and through a course of events Terry ended up becoming Batman, and he eventually formed a father/son bond with Bruce. That was one of my favorite aspects of the show. And maybe it's just me, but I think that attributing this connection to being biological is shallow. Does this mean Terry would never have become Batman, and they never would have shared the father/son relationship if they weren't genetic father and son? I think that the concept of them being genetically related is very shallow.

Some people talk as if the genetic link makes the show better, but I think that this is because people are thinking shallowly. If it takes a genetic relationship for people to accept the father/son dynamic illustrated between Bruce and Terry, then that means that the point of the original show was in vain.

[Spidey-Bat]

You've posted that elsewhere. I don't think it ruins the dynamic at all. If we found out during Beyond's run, then it would have.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The reason I think it DOES make Terry and Bruce's relationship better is because of Robin.

Think of it......how many kids has Bruce take under his wing? In the comics, it's more than 4.......in the cartoons it was 2 Robins.

I don't know about you.......but I NEEDED more reason for Terry to be good enough to hold the mantle of the Bat. He's origins felt like a watered down version of the previous protege's........only he got lucky b/c there was no Batman. With Terry, I needed a reason to like him.......and honestly, I didn't like him at all. Especially when B:TAS (or Gotham Knights) got cancelled.......I didn't like Batman Beyond. I still watched it.....but I didn't like it.

I've actually begun to like him more after the show got cancelled, his appearances in JLU and the ROTJ.......I thought they were great. Now, we have a reason why he SHOULD be Batman. He's Bruce's son........ton of potential there.

[Batman the 6th]

How much older is Terry from his brother Matt? I think it's seven years, but I could be wrong.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, Matt had to be at most 8 years old.....maybe 9. And Terry was 15....so it's all about estimates. My guess is, Terry must have been about 25 years old in that "EPILOGUE" episode....and Matt must be in his late teens.

[Batman the 6th]

Why is it that on Wikipedia, it says Bruce has no children, just his parents and an uncle? Terry, Ibn, Dick, and he probably has others.

[hippie_hunter]

Why is it that on Wikipedia, it says Bruce has no children, just his parents and an uncle? Terry, Ibn, Dick, and he probably has others.
Batman does not have any biological children at the moment. NONE AT ALL. There is no Bruce Jr. No Carli Conners. Etc. Terry and Matt McGuiness are his children in the DC ANIMATED Universe, not the DC COMICS Universe.

Helena Wayne was the daughter of the deceased Batman of Earth-2. Earth-2 was wiped out during the Crisis of Infinite Earths. She is no longer part of DC continuity and never will be.

Batman however has adopted Dick Grayson (who has no children either) and Jason Todd as his sons. He is currently the legal guardian of Tim Drake, but it is currently unknown if he adopted him like the other Robins.

Ibn al Xu'fasch is being put back into continuity and most likely as the son of Batman and Talia.

Helena Dubrova, the daughter of Catwoman, currently has an unknown father. The main suspects are Batman and Slam Bradley Jr.

[bulok]

Grant Morrison stated at Wondercon 2006 that his first Batman story arc will be titled "Batman and Son", and will in fact expanded upon The Son of the Demon storyline, carrying in line what appears to be a remodeling of Batman's personality after the events of Infinite Crisis. DC has recently begun a new printing of "Batman: Son of the Demon", stating "A new printing of the classic work tying into the BATMAN story by Grant Morrison and Andy Kubert, in standard comics size for the first time!".


Just read that on Wikipedia. Not sure on the voracity of that but it seems Ibn al 'Xu'ffasch might be in continuity.

[Hudson]

Well, Matt had to be at most 8 years old.....maybe 9. And Terry was 15....so it's all about estimates. My guess is, Terry must have been about 25 years old in that "EPILOGUE" episode....and Matt must be in his late teens.
Maybe he's got the Wayne intellect?:eek:

[Batman the 6th]

So the only biological children he has is Ibn. Has it been hinted at about Dick? I know Helena Kyle from pre crisis was his daughter(Birds of Prey). So the new Helena Dubrova could be his daughter?

[Hudson]

So the only biological children he has is Ibn. Has it been hinted at about Dick? I know Helena Kyle from pre crisis was his daughter(Birds of Prey). So the new Helena Dubrova could be his daughter?
Dick is at least his adopted son....

[bat89]

is this part of the continuity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catwomanbaby.PNG

[Batman the 6th]

Why would the last name be Dubrova if shes not sure who the father is?

[hippie_hunter]

So the only biological children he has is Ibn. Has it been hinted at about Dick? I know Helena Kyle from pre crisis was his daughter(Birds of Prey). So the new Helena Dubrova could be his daughter?

The Huntress is now Helena Bertinelli not Helena Wayne (it was never Kyle), due to the Crisis of Infinite Earths and has not biological relationship to the post-Crisis Batman.

Dick Grayson is Bruce Wayne's adopted son. His biological parents are John and Mary Grayson.

Yes, Helena Dubrova could be his daughter, but it also might not be.

And yes it appears that Ibn is at the moment, Batman's only biological child.

[hippie_hunter]

is this part of the continuity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catwomanbaby.PNG

Yes.

[hippie_hunter]

Why would the last name be Dubrova if shes not sure who the father is?

Selina does know who the father is. Batman most likely knows who the father is. The reason why the child has the last name Dubrova, is because Selina is currently in hiding under the alias of Irene Dubrova.

[Batman the 6th]

Is Terry McGuiness only in Batman Beyond, or is it continuity?

[hippie_hunter]

Is Terry McGuiness only in Batman Beyond, or is it continuity?

Only in Batman Beyond

[hippie_hunter]

In the recent issue of Batman, Tim agreed to be adopted by Bruce

[bulok]

In the recent issue of Batman, Tim agreed to be adopted by Bruce


YES!

[IzzyJG99]

Yeah...the comic panels with Bruce saying that "Tim deserves more" and it's "not enough" is great. I think Tim always saw Bruce as a Father figure and once Tim's father died he hoped that he would get to be taken in my Bruce more so than just living in an old carriage house turned teen wonder bedroom. This clearly is going to piss off Psycho AKA Jason Todd.