Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More
From
Miscellaneous Superhero Movies




This thread is open to the discussion of all superhero properties not listed in the Thread List below, as I have branched out into several property-specific ones so we can better keep track of people’s posts and have more linear and organized discussions about each superhero property.

Also listed below are several posts links from the original Haven that pertain to the subject of this particular thread. It is not a complete list, and anyone who wants to link or re-post something they thought was interesting is welcome to do so.
I recommend reading these posts before posting your own ideas, but it’s not a requirement.
I ask that while people can respectfully point it out, they not act harshly when a user makes a new post that contains material that is similar to what has already been posted in either the original Haven or this particular thread.

This thread is dedicated to the brainstorming and discussion of ideas pertaining to how faithful and optimally entertaining superhero movie adaptations could have, or still could, be made. This is also a place for analyzing what has come before and how that could be a basis for ideal film adaptations of the various superhero properties we know and love, more closely based on the source material.

I think certain movies already made could be taken as a basis for fully faithful adaptations, as in a large portion of a particular movie could be left mostly the way it is with specific alterations to what held that movie back from being better. Even some of the obvious changes to the various mythos could be used to enhance the story or execution of an adaptation that could still be considered faithful by discriminating, analytical and demanding fans. If there hasn’t been a movie made of the superhero(es) discussed in this thread, then ignore the last two sentences.
I want to discuss the theoretical possibilities present in both the original source material and the existing adaptations, and how those could be put into new productions that completely nail both the "spirit" and the essential details of these mythologies. Plots, script, character traits, costumes, even casting decisions are open for discussion. This is ultimately for the purpose of creative discussions for their own sake, although I would be delighted if it inspired high-quality, faithful fan scripts beings written (Dragon has written some excellent Spider-Man screenplays, for example).

All other non-comics media are valid topics as well (live action and animated TV series, video games, etc.). Again, it's fine to use ideas from existing products (casting, plot elements, dialogue, props/effects, etc.) as a basis or part of an idea for a "new" product if the new product would be significantly more faithful, even though it would be implausible for a rebooted franchise (a la "Batman Begins") to include these same elements in reality; reality is mostly irrelevant here.
It is unlikely that these ideas will lead to a better movie being made; not unless one of the thread participants ends up being a big-time producer or someone important in the business reads this thread. This is for us, the fans. We spend a good deal of time on the Hype, and it really doesn't accomplish much in terms of tangible results anyway. That's okay, since the point of this forum, presumably, is for the purpose of imparting information, critiquing superhero products, and discussing ideas. This is for people who are intelligent, imaginative, and passionate and have ideas to share conforming to the stated topic.

Ground Rules:
If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect or good enough and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so be on your way and don’t intrude where you have nothing to offer. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes. Do not come in here and defend film decisions that are considered flaws by contributing posters, unless you have another aspect in mind that does need changing and post an equal or greater portion of text discussing a criticism or suggesting an idea for an existing or hypothetical product that is very faithful to the source material.
We’re here to talk amongst ourselves, and anyone who disagrees with the spirit of this thread is in no way obligated to read any of the content herein or reply. Any of the behavior I described above that occurs here is trolling, pure and simple. This thread isn’t about argument and hostility. The only personal criticism that should occur is that which is directed toward the producers (meaning anyone involved in the production in any way) of preexisting superhero products, and even that should be kept reasonably limited, since everyone who truly belongs in this thread is assumed to have some level of disagreement with said producers, sometimes to the point of resentment. We need not spend excessive time on blaming them for their failings, but don’t hold back your true feelings on those screw-ups either. Disagreement between rule-abiding posters is fine. Just keep it civil and within the guidelines. Or else.


Nobody is allowed to use terms like “fanboy,” “nerd,” “purist,” “hater,” or anything like that in a derogatory manner toward other posters or comic fans in general in this thread. The word "whining" and the like-- unless used with regard to a character in a movie, comic book or TV show (ex. “Spider-Man was quite the whiner...”)—is forbidden, as is “nitpicking,” and anything else intended to bully anyone into complacency and acceptance of existing products. The phrase “impossible standards” and anything to the effect of “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes,” “the general audience will not accept the same things comics fans will,” and “people want to see realism,” if not accompanied by a massive amount of faithful and potentially marketable ideas meant to compensate or work around these alleged “facts,” are also strictly forbidden.
It is okay to suggest minor deviations from the source material for this topic, as long as the majority of the ideas you put forth—or are simply replying to and agree with—are consistent with the source material and/or significantly more faithful than previous existing adaptations.
Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.**That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.


Do not belittle classic superhero or villain costumes. Do not use the word "panties" to describe those shorts that some heroes wear over their tights. It's fine to describe a costume as "tights" as long as they actually are and you aren't belittling anything. It's not okay to use the word "Spandex" to describe a costume from the comics that is not actually made of it, unless you're suggesting that Spandex, Lycra, etc. be used in the production of the movie, or maybe suggesting Neoprene or something else over it. Using the term "gay" in any derogatory sense whatsoever in this thread will result in an immediate report to a moderator, without warning, whether or not you've read this.
Again, it’s okay to disagree with a person’s criticism of a movie if you have another one to share, but do not post remarks about an existing or real-life upcoming film if you have no significant complaints about any of the productions being discussed.

I hope the guidelines are clear. Everyone is welcome to contribute or comment, as long as they follow the rules and don’t make any criticisms that are not relevant to the thread. You either belong here or you don’t, and that choice is up to you , so have respect enough to let the environment herein reflect the title of this thread.
Anyone who violates the rules or causes trouble will be promptly reported.

Thank you for your cooperation.


It is recommended, but not strictly required, that you supply a unique title at the beginning of each new post, especially when it isn’t a reply to another’s post. This will help in identifying the topic of each new post at a glance and finding specific posts with the Hype’s search engine. You can resend older posts in the appropriate thread and add titles to them.

Examples:
“Hunter Rider’s Iron Man concept #1”
“Herr Logan’s ‘Batman: Dark Knight Detective’ video game,”
“Everyman’s Captain America movie series concept #1”
“Zev’s Daredevil TV Show concept”
“Logan & Zaphod’s Batman movie series concept.”Welcome to the Safe Haven. Enjoy!


Here are a few posts from the original thread (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6248395#post6248395)to check out. Make sure to check the quoted portions, as several of these posts are two-for-one deals (which is why so many of mine are here, because I almost always reply to people’s posts and frequently use quotes from other posts). Also, most of these links lead to single post pages, but if you open those pages and click on the thread title link in the upper right corner, it will take you to that post in the full thread, where you can see what came before and afterward. If I’ve confused you and you need help navigating the links, just ask.



All right, we've got several new Safe Haven threads up. This thread will heretofore be designated as a Miscellaneous Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More. Everything that doesn't pertain to the subject listed below should be discussed in here.

:batman: (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232432) BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232432)

:xmen: (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232429) X-MEN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232429)

:spidey: SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232433)

:supes: SUPERMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232435)

:ff: FANTASTIC FOUR: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233002)




Here are some examples of what kind of discussion belongs in this particular thread from here on out, as well as reference material for people who are inclined to post about certain topics:

MISCELLANEOUS SAFE HAVEN POSTS

General Philosophy Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249949&postcount=9
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6250396&postcount=11
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255136&postcount=21
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...16#post7525116 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7525116#post7525116)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...30#post7530630 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7530630#post7530630)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...48#post7535748 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7535748#post7535748)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...92#post7730392 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7730392#post7730392)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...84#post7731584 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7731584#post7731584)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...67#post7771667 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7771667#post7771667)
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...66#post7879366 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7879366#post7879366)

Black Panther
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...50#post7176550 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7176550#post7176550)

Deathstroke
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...96#post7944596 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7944596#post7944596)

Hulk Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6261904&postcount=43

Silver Surfer
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6359582&postcount=186
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600230&postcount=282
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600998&postcount=284

Teen Titans
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...09#post7432809 (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7432809#post7432809)



"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

--George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

[TheSaintofKillers]

Heh, I like that thread! I'll support it with something later on, when i'll have more time. :up:

Later. :D

[Langoth]

Jeeze... I don't really know where to start.

However I will be here enough of the time I guess.

[Anla'shok]

Welcome back Herr Logan.

I think the effect the more demanding of us have on change, is a slow but building process. When I was a child there was no such thing as the internet, but I can safely say that no one I knew used phrases like "Faithfull to the source material" or "True to the spirit of the characters." when comic book characters were brought to the screens big or small. That Producers and Directors make an effort to at least give the illusion that they care about such things is a testament to pesky individuals such as ourselves.
The question is how long before we as a society gain the same level of respect for this artform as places like Japan have for theirs? I certainly don't want to be old and grey before these books are shown the proper respect they deserve. That's it for now, but here's my future hit list on topics I plan to address.

• Superhero Costumes: Why should Homo Superior give a crap about our
clothing taboos?

• Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

• The Fantastic Four: Never really read them, and why the film
makes me not want to read them.

• Wolverine: You call that a berserker rage?

[Herr Logan]

Welcome back Herr Logan.

I think the effect the more demanding of us have on change, is a slow but building process. When I was a child there was no such thing as the internet, but I can safely say that no one I knew used phrases like "Faithfull to the source material" or "True to the spirit of the characters." when comic book characters were brought to the screens big or small. That Producers and Directors make an effort to at least give the illusion that they care about such things is a testament to pesky individuals such as ourselves.
The question is how long before we as a society gain the same level of respect for this artform as places like Japan have for theirs? I certainly don't want to be old and grey before these books are shown proper respect they deserve. That's it for now, but here's my future hit list on topics I plan to address.

• Superhero Costumes: Why should Homo Superior give a crap about our
clothing taboos?

• Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

• The Fantastic Four: Never really read them, and why the film
makes me not want to read them.

• Wolverine: You call that a berserker rage?

Good to see you again, Anla'shok.. :up:

I look forward to seeing your further thoughts on those topics, and to inevitably, instinctively ranting to that effect as a follow-up response, as is my way. ;)

:wolverine

[Boom]

Very good thread idea, in my honest opinion.

You'll definitely be seeing more of me in here.

[Herr Logan]

Very good thread idea, in my honest opinion.

You'll definitely be seeing more of me in here.

Glad to hear it, Boom. :up:

:wolverine

Everybody: I'm going to post something I wrote a few weeks ago in a moment, and it's pretty big (because long-windedness is a virtue, or so I was told once...). Anyone who had their own thoughts to share unrelated to my next post-- just like Anla'shok is planning to do-- should go ahead and post them, and everyone should feel free to respond to whichever batch of ideas they want in whatever order.
I'm hoping that a thread as widely inclusive as this won't become too cluttered or confusing. If it does, we can divide it up into property-specific threads in their respective forums, but I'm hoping that for a while we can hide out in the Misc. Comics Films where there's less likelihood of an outside attack.
Just be sure that if you respond to a particular person or post that you cite either the post or poster in a quote bubble, even if you don't quote the entire previous post.

[Herr Logan]

Were the world fortunate enough that I'd be the one in charge of creating a new Spider-Man franchise, this is how it would go:

Movie 1
Relatively brief origin (as in, it sounds long-winded in writing, but it's brief in final film editing), which includes the introduction of Ben and May Parker, Flash Thompson, Liz Allen, and that radioactive demon-creature at the science symposium. Peter would test his skills in a wrestling ring for cash (and keep his mask on throughout the entire outing) and then have an agent set him up with a TV stunt demo in a few weeks (which he'll perform in full costume, and he'll never take his mask off in plain sight, and he'll build his God damn web-shooters!) where afterward, Peter gets his check but still lets the thief get away out of sheer apathy and arrogance. At this point, we could either have him kill Ben in a home invasion or go with the car-jacking, as long as Peter wasn't deliberately letting the thief go out of a grudge against the fight promoter. Peter hears that the cops have cornered the killer in an abandoned warehouse and goes after him in full Spidey garb. He beats him up, finds out who it is, keeps his God damn mask on, and the burglar is lowered down to street level in a web-net for the police to collect, alive but beaten up pretty badly. Peter learns responsibility.

Dr. Otto Octavius, a brilliant but arrogant and perpetually unpleasant man uses a tentacle harness that plugs into his spine and is assisted by an artificially intelligent computer, but the AI has no possibility of taking over his mind, or even controlling the tentacles in opposition to Otto's mental commands (until Parker finds a way to make it go crazy and attack Ock himself, probably in a later film, when George Stacy gets killed). Octavius blows up his lab and the machine is bonded to him. When he wakes up, he attacks the doctors who are trying to separate him from his invention and holds the hospital hostage.

Spider-Man can't cash his check from the TV studio because he isn't a legal citizen, so the surviving Parkers are left without significant income. Peter realizes that after appearing on TV and having stopped several petty crimes that grabbed the media's attention, Spider-Man is a profitable celebrity, so he decides to put his amatuer photographer skills (it's a hobby of his, along with complex chemical engineering and gadgetry) gets a job at the Daily Bugle with the intention of taking pictures of himself, where he meets the irascible J. Jonah Jameson, the patient and avuncular Joe Robertson, and the mousy yet beautiful Betty Brant. Peter makes a deal with Jameson that he'll deliver regular pics of Spider-Man and Jonah won't ask how he got them. Peter turns on his newfound charm and Betty becomes his girlfriend after a week or two. Throughout the movie, there will be multiple brief scenes in which Betty will express her fear and disapproval regarding Peter’s dangerous line of work (chasing vigilantes and taking close-range pictures of superhumans in deadly battles). Peter needs the money and expresses that he likes the thrill of what he does, which is really referring to the thrills he gets as Spider-Man without giving away anything. He’ll have a voice-over monologue through much of the movie, and he’ll make it quite clear that, while he’s heavily burdened by the responsibility of Spider-Man and stressed about having to stretch himself so thin and disappoint various people as a result, he loves being Spider-Man for the thrills as much as for the sense of virtue.
Petty crimes are stopped by Spider-Man, many a quip is made, and there should be at least one cameo with a high-level villain that lends himself more toward fantastic battles than master plans and intricate psychodramas, such as the Vulture or Electro. This character would be portrayed just as he is in the comics (aside from some minor adjustments in the costumes), but their origins are not explored in any detail whatsoever. The battle would be full of amazing maneuvers and verbal sparring as well.

Peter is still attending high school, mouthing off to an enraged Flash Thompson and tutoring Liz Allen in one of her classes (he's stretching himself pretty thin, his hero complex driving him to jump into increasing commitments before he's really thought it through). Flash is a huge Spider-Man fan, and he starts a fan club that only a few people join, and those are his friends and a few kids that are just afraid of him. May keeps trying to set Peter up with Mary Jane Watson (Anna Watson would make a cameo, telling May about her niece), even though he's already got a girlfriend and she's already jealous enough that he's tutoring Liz. We'd see a very brief shot of him tutoring her and her trying to flirt with him. Mary Jane Watson would make a cameo appearance when both Liz and Betty come looking for Peter at his house (acting quite catty when seeing each other). Mary Jane is drinking tea with May and her Aunt Anna, and both Liz and Betty feel pretty crappy after seeing MJ and realizing that her aunt and Peter's aunt see each other all the time and are urging MJ to meet Peter ("It's a shame you have to go so soon, Mary Jane, I so wanted you to finally meet Peter," or some such).

Spider-Man shows up at the hospital where Dr Octopus (wearing scrubs at this point) is holding the place hostage (all of these scenes I'm describing are inter-spliced, I'm just arranging the paragraphs based on subject matter, not strict scene-by-scene linear continuity) and not only gets the crap kicked out of him but humiliated. In addition to amazing Spidey vs. Ock action and typical repartee, we'd see the famous shot of Octavius *****-slapping Spider-Man while holding him helpless with his tentacles, saying the line quoted in Doc Ock's (the Hype poster) signature. He'd toss Spidey to the proverbial curb and escape, leaving the city of New York in a panic. Doc Ock will find himself a group of mercenary goons and terrorize them into serving him. He's going to build an enormous, destructive machine and hold the entire city for ransom. When we see him in his abandoned warehouse lair (where else, right?), directing his underlings in their moving equipment around, he's wearing a white three-piece suit (with a large portion of the back cut out, to accommodate Ock's new built-in hardware) and smoking a cigar. He orders his thugs about in a friendly way-- almost too friendly. He's just waiting for someone to make a mistake so he can instantly fall into a rage and punish them. Doc Ock is now a full-blown antisocial bastard who takes pleasure in putting on a charming demeanor to lure his perceived inferiors into a vulnerable position.
I haven't planned out the mechanics of his big scary plan or how exactly Spider-Man will pick up his trail-- wait, I know that last part... he'll use a homemade tracing device with a signal that registers on a monitor approximately the size of a PDA (hmm, I wonder where I've seen this before). Anyway, with various interspersed scenes of Peter's life at home, school and the Daily Bugle, he comes upon Ock's insidious plot and tracks him to his lair, beating up his goons and beating Ock to the point where he violently brings the warehouse down on everyone and escapes while Spider-Man saves the lives of Ock's thugs.

Ock's next move is to take out Spider-Man for good so he won't be a nuisance anymore. He climbs up the side of the Daily Bugle building, smashes a large hole through the wall of the floor where Jonah’s office is, and orders Jonah to print a challenge to Spider-Man on page one. Jonah's too prideful to take orders from violent, psychopathic cyborgs, and tells Ock to go crawl back under his rock. Ock grabs Betty Brant and says that if Jonah doesn't set up a showdown with Spider-Man and tell the police not to show up (it's a crazy demand, I know, but it's the kind of arrogant demand Ock would make, and he's also basically expecting people to disobey him, which in his mind gives him justification to be as violent as he pleases in response to their insolence), he’ll crush Jonah’s secretary into pulp with his newly acquired arms. Jonah gives in at this, and Ock makes his exit. This “damsel in distress” plot device is right from the comics and is actually logical within the story (considering that Ock is brazen enough to pull such a move when the odds of getting away with it are ridiculous).

Spider-Man takes the challenge and comes upon a small army of law enforcement agents monitoring Octavius and his hostage. He tells them that he’s got to go in alone if Betty is to survive, and they clearly don’t trust him, due as much in part by Jonah’s relentless editorials against Spider-Man as the obvious fact that he’s a metahuman vigilante who can’t be controlled. Still, they agree to give him a window of time to take care of business, since they know they’ll at least need a distraction to get a decent shot at Ock, since Ock has proven more than a match for guns and gas grenades (the detecting and deflecting of bullets could be a function of the AI in the machine, since Ock himself could hardly calculate multiple bullet trajectories in his own mind while completing other tasks at once, even if he is a genius). Spider-Man goes in and has a magnificent battle with Doc Ock in which he never once loses his mask, and beats him, leaving him unconscious and heavily webbed up for the police. Betty Brant is freaked out about the entire experience. Betty confronts Peter a few days later and says that now more than ever she requires stability and safety in her life and cannot stay involved with someone who willingly endangers himself by chasing superpowered maniacs like Spider-Man (!!) and Dr. Octopus. Peter knows that he can’t give up being Spider-Man, and he knows he can’t ever tell Betty who he truly is, since she can’t handle him being a crime/action photographer, much less the vigilante who’s actually putting himself directly in harm’s way. And he still needs to make money to support himself and Aunt May. He tells Betty that they’re through. It is through Betty—a girl who is pretty and nice, but not someone Peter is madly in love with—that we get the message that Peter can’t really have a normal love life, no matter how hard he tries to cover all the bases.

So, that ending is depressing, but not nearly as heavy-handed and in no way some cheesy, sappy bastardization of the comics, and the story in total would be chock full of dialogue and inner monologue intended to entertain the audience instead of trying to wring their hearts out like soggy washcloths. Peter would be in his Spider-Man costume at the very least 2/5 of the time he’s on screen, and likely more, even if he’s not performing amazing action the whole time. Both personas would be interesting, and the supporting cast doesn’t get watered down. The movie I envision would be about 2.5 hours in length, and regardless of how much of a strain on one’s attention span reading this summary is, the end product could easily fit all the events mentioned and more in that timeframe. Believe it.

Movie #2’s summary is still pending, but in involves Peter going to college, meeting Gwen Stacy, George Stacy, Harry Osborn, and a Green Goblin who doesn’t kill any girlfriends or get killed at the climax, yet!

:wolverine

[Cullen]

Here are just a couple of random thoughts echoing through that vast empty chasm I call a mind. Bear in mind that when I use "hero" I'm doing so in a gender neutral sort of way:
________________________________________
Screw starting with the origins of the heroes - Get to the point of the movie (superhero action) quick. In medias res isn't just a trio of randomly slapped together Latin words; it's a way of life.

There are exceptions, of course; the Hulk, for instance, needs a bit of normalcy for the character to work. But for most comic book characters, it simply isn't necessary to dwell on where they came from. Mention it, perhaps show a bit of it, make sure the audience is aware of how the characters came to the conclusion that running around town in a Halloween suit was a good idea, but keep it to a bare, bare minimum.
________________________________________
You don't need to use the big guns in the first film - The Joker doesn't have to be the first Batman movie (obviously), Ock and Green Goblin can wait, and the Hulk doesn't need any opponent except the army, at least at first. I'd use a second stringer. A Vulture, an Electro, a Scarecrow, a Namor (or, if you prefer, a Mole Man), what have you, who have you got.

The reason for doing this is to set up the hero or heroes, give a bit of foundation to stand on with audience members not as familiar with them. Every other film should be with a bigger threat than the one before.

Characters such as Wilson Fisk, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor and the like should be treated like Darth Vader was in the original Star Wars series. Manipulators, working from the shadows, only rarely directly confronting the heroes until the last movie's final conflict. Which, purely by my talents as a writer and not by coincidence at all, leads me to my next point.
________________________________________
Have a destination in mind right from the get go - Plan for more than one film. Again, look at Star Wars. The first movie had a perfectly acceptable beginning, middle, and end. Sequels weren't necessary, but the potential was there. Thanks to some degree with the presence of Darth Vader.

With Spider-man, I'd introduce the Green Goblin. Probably not in costume, and probably kept to the shadows (say as the boss Vulture is reluctantly working for, or as someone Electro is trying to impress), but with growing importance until the third film, where, tired of the meddling wallcrawler, he comes out for a final reckoning.

In the same vein, I'd introduce M.J. with the first film, build up the romance in the second, and throw her off the bridge in the last. Oh, I know the purists would want Gwen for the job, but this is my series, damn it, not theirs. I'd be setting up a Gwen Stacy relationship for the second series of movies. The girl's got plenty of untapped potential, far more than M.J. ever had.

(Of course, I hate M.J. with a fiery, burning passion that rivals a supernova, so I might be a bit bias. But only a wee bit)

By the time everything is said and done, the whole series should tell one complete story, with each part functioning as a whole. Sticking to the comic's history shouldn't be a major concern; sticking with who the characters were and how they would act in any given situation would be.

if you want total accuracy to what happened in the comics, you should be making a cartoon or television series. You'd have more space to do what needs doing.

(At least, that's what I would do. In fact, I'd rather do a cartoon series. And in it, I'd throw M.J. off the bridge and go with Gwen, Betty, or Felica. Because, frankly, at this juncture in time and space, M.J. is the one the fans care the most about, and her death would be far more devastating. That's the only way to maintain the power that "The Green Goblin's Last Stand" had.)
________________________________________
Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.
________________________________________
Well, that's it. No more. I praise anyone who's waded through all of this rambling and remained awake. I threaten everyone with more of the same if and when more pops into my pretty little head.

(why can't my goddamn novel flow out this easy... been working on it longer... argh... )

[Hunter Rider]

Marks thread point*
great thread Herr,i shall be back later today for a full posting session
welcome back:up:

[The Lizard]

Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.


Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.

[Joker]

Welcome back Logan.You've been missed :)

I simply love your ideas on Doctor Octopus for the first movie.So true to the comics and captures the true spirit of all characters involved.

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.It's perfect.But I'll pitch my own ideas for Ock's return later on :up:

[The Green Goblin]

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.

Me either. An evil bastard Ock in the first followed by an amnesiac Goblin who doesn't die would be right on target. :up:

Well said from the rest about the mechanical webshooters.

My overall disappointment in Raimi's saga mounts...

[Herr Logan]

Here are just a couple of random thoughts echoing through that vast empty chasm I call a mind. Bear in mind that when I use "hero" I'm doing so in a gender neutral sort of way:
________________________________________
Screw starting with the origins of the heroes - Get to the point of the movie (superhero action) quick. In mediasres[/ i] isn't just a trio of randomly slapped together Latin words; it's a way of life[i].

There are exceptions, of course; the Hulk, for instance, needs a bit of normalcy for the character to work. But for most comic book characters, it simply isn't necessary to dwell on where they came from. Mention it, perhaps show a bit of it, make sure the audience is aware of how the characters came to the conclusion that running around town in a Halloween suit was a good idea, but keep it to a bare, bare minimum.
________________________________________
You don't need to use the big guns in the first film - The Joker doesn't have to be the first Batman movie (obviously), Ock and Green Goblin can wait, and the Hulk doesn't need any opponent except the army, at least at first. I'd use a second stringer. A Vulture, an Electro, a Scarecrow, a Namor (or, if you prefer, a Mole Man), what have you, who have you got.

The reason for doing this is to set up the hero or heroes, give a bit of foundation to stand on with audience members not as familiar with them. Every other film should be with a bigger threat than the one before.

Characters such as Wilson Fisk, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor and the like should be treated like Darth Vader was in the original Star Wars series. Manipulators, working from the shadows, only rarely directly confronting the heroes until the last movie's final conflict. Which, purely by my talents as a writer and not by coincidence at all, leads me to my next point.
________________________________________
Have a destination in mind right from the get go - Plan for more than one film. Again, look at Star Wars. The first movie had a perfectly acceptable beginning, middle, and end. Sequels weren't necessary, but the potential was there. Thanks to some degree with the presence of Darth Vader.

With Spider-man, I'd introduce the Green Goblin. Probably not in costume, and probably kept to the shadows (say as the boss Vulture is reluctantly working for, or as someone Electro is trying to impress), but with growing importance until the third film, where, tired of the meddling wallcrawler, he comes out for a final reckoning.

In the same vein, I'd introduce M.J. with the first film, build up the romance in the second, and throw her off the bridge in the last. Oh, I know the purists would want Gwen for the job, but this is my series, damn it, not theirs. I'd be setting up a Gwen Stacy relationship for the second series of movies. The girl's got plenty of untapped potential, far more than M.J. ever had.

(Of course, I hate M.J. with a fiery, burning passion that rivals a supernova, so I might be a bit bias. But only a wee bit)

By the time everything is said and done, the whole series should tell one complete story, with each part functioning as a whole. Sticking to the comic's history shouldn't be a major concern; sticking with who the characters were and how they would act in any given situation would be.

if you want total accuracy to what happened in the comics, you should be making a cartoon or television series. You'd have more space to do what needs doing.

(At least, that's what I would do. In fact, I'd rather do a cartoon series. And in it, I'd throw M.J. off the bridge and go with Gwen, Betty, or Felica. Because, frankly, at this juncture in time and space, M.J. is the one the fans care the most about, and her death would be far more devastating. That's the only way to maintain the power that "The Green Goblin's Last Stand" had.)
________________________________________
Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.
________________________________________
Well, that's it. No more. I praise anyone who's waded through all of this rambling and remained awake. I threaten everyone with more of the same if and when more pops into my pretty little head.

(why can't my goddamn novel flow out this easy... been working on it longer... argh... )



Still looking for a job that'll help pay for those meds you so desperately need, eh, Cullen? :(
You'll get there. I got faith in ya, big guy. :up: ;)

Well, what you've done-- directly or indirectly-- is challenge my idea, which is good. That's what we should be doing. Here's my defense:

The goal here is to be strike the best balance of faithfullness, general entertainment value and artistic quality as possible in a superhero adaptation, while also giving some consideration as to marketing value with the so-called "general audience." I'm not going to put a lot of time into explaining how my ideas on Spider-Man will stack up against the expectations of the general audience because I'm already convinced that Spider-Man done properly is the most likely out of all the superhero frachises to sit well with both fans and casual viewers.

First of all, let me say that I have indeed thought ahead and taken the option of several films into account; in fact, that's the only way I have thought about it.
The reason I want to present the villains line-up the way I've chosen is not only to be faithful to the comics. I believe that faithfulness to the Spider-Man continuity is the best bet for a story, because I truly believe it was brilliantly done back in the day.
The thing about Doc Ock and the Green Goblin showing up in the first two movies is that Ock was definitely not a shadowy behind-the-scener (new term coined, and I want a quarter every time someone else uses it; cash and checks accepted) in the beginning, and the Green Goblin isn't a huge, personal threat to Peter Parker (as opposed to just Spider-Man during the workday) until the end of the second movie, where he finds out Peter's identity and then loses his memory and becomes a ticking time-bomb that Peter has to see every once in a while (since he's a family friend at this point). Dr. Octavius gained his new lease on life and fought Spider-Man twice in the course of one issue. I believe the newly created war between Spider-Man and Dr. Octopus can be stretched out to several days or weeks, and it isn't intended to be something hideously sinister as it would be with someone who had a real chance at hurting Spider-Man where it counts (like the Goblin will, later). He gets his new power, he schools Spider-Man in front of God and everybody, he moves on with the intention of proving his badassery (25 cents per use) to the world and making money at the same time, Spider-Man messes everything up and proves himself a threat to Ock, and then there's the showdown that changes Spider-Man's life (because it results in the breakup of Peter and Betty, which teaches Parker yet another lesson in being a superhuman with a conscience that won't quit).

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anywa, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.

Actually, I think it would be best to have the Vulture fight before Ock, because Spider-Man taking on the Vulture is the basis for Peter Parker beginning his relationships with the Bugle staff (Jameson, Robertson and Betty Brant in particular), and it would be best if Spider-Man went into his first fight with Ock feeling very confident. Taking down the Vulture is no easy task, so it makes perfect sense that Spider-Man wouldn't think much of a stationary villain who just woke up out of a coma confined in a smaller space like a hospital interior. And that's why it's so poignant when Doc makes Spidey his ***** during their first battle. He learns not to underestimate Octavius right then and there. The more I think about all this, the more I see "learning" as a main theme of the franchise, because it always seems Spidey is learning something from each battle and life event that makes him more careful in the future.

Anyway, another main reason why I feel it's fine to bring out the big guns in the first few movies is because I don't plan to get rid of them in their debut films. Doc Ock debuts in movie #1 and comes back in movie #3 to do something horrible (even if unintentionally, or should I say "serendipitously"). The Green Goblin debuts in movie #2, looms in the background of movie #3 as he's supposed to lie dormant in the mind of the seemingly healthy Norman Osborn, and comes back in full force in movie #4, doing something horrible to Peter (very much on purpose) and getting killed in the end. Throughout all of this are Peter's troubles with school, work, girls, family, etc. and several battles with smaller-scale villains like Electro (again, an A-list villain by himself, but a short-sighted thug compared with the visonaries and masterminds that seem to cause the real damage in Peter's life), the Shocker (someone who seems like a joke now, but was a serious powerhouse who schooled Spider-Man soundly in his first appearance), etc. The point is to balance all of these elements to maintain both a cinematic beginning/middle/end structure but also have it be a continuous saga at the same time. It is very true that a cartoon series would be more appropriate for a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man (or any other hero property), but I honestly believe it could be done in film. Spider-Man out of all other heroes could be done faithfully on film in a long-running movie franchise (I'm thinking 6 films, beginning with the origin and Dr. Octopus and ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson). I find it much more difficult to dream up economically viable, well-organized movie plots in a long-running series for the Batman, X-Men, Fantastic Four and Hulk, and I haven't even put much thought into the Avengers, yet (which is fine, because I don't have as much familiarity with that character property as with the others).

While I personally wouldn't start a Spider-Man movie franchise off in the middle of the action as with a Greek epic (I know what "in medias res" means, too, Mr. Smartypants :p), I wouldn't drag out the non-action beginning content like they did in the existing Spider-Man movie. For one thing, all that "all about a girl" crap wouldn't be there. There would be establishing content which would show how Peter relates to his teachers (very briefly), Flash Thompson and Liz Allen (the girl he likes but doesn't go all mushy over, especially since she doesn't just ignore him, she's outright rejected him before and has taken part in the mocking Peter experiences daily) and the school body in general. The point is to fill all of that time up with interesting, entertaining, snappy dialogue that keeps the viewer laughing and the movie coasting at reasonable speed.

*stops car, checks map*
Am I still on topic? Maybe I should ask for directions. :o

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.

I knew you'd be on the same page about the balance between faithful recounting of comic book mythology and the applied material presented attractively to the totality of viewers. So many people can't or won't bring themselves to imagine how very quick visuals and seemingly throw-away lines can fill in the blanks and add a smoothness to the wealth of fantastical information being thrown at the audience, but you and many others showing up here definitely get it. :)
Great to have you on board, Liz. :up:

[Herr Logan]

Marks thread point*
great thread Herr,i shall be back later today for a full posting session
welcome back:up:
It's good to be back, guys, and good to see you all still have your imaginations and love of the classic stories and characters intact. :up: :cool:


Welcome back Logan.You've been missed :)

I simply love your ideas on Doctor Octopus for the first movie.So true to the comics and captures the true spirit of all characters involved.

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.It's perfect.But I'll pitch my own ideas for Ock's return later on :up:
Thank ye kindly, Ock. I am very confident that I understand the essence of Dr. Octopus better than most fans on the Hype from my experience as a fan of Spider-Man, a student of criminology and being an arrogant bastard myself, but you not only understand the character better than all of us, you're very familiar with all his mannerisms, greatest lines and moments, etc. Always feel free to comment on what I or anyone else says here and add your ideas, and if you have any specific dialogue buts in mind, share!

Me either. An evil bastard Ock in the first followed by an amnesiac Goblin who doesn't die would be right on target. :up:

Well said from the rest about the mechanical webshooters.

My overall disappointment in Raimi's saga mounts...
That's why we've got little else but back issues and each other to keep alive the joy that is the Spider-Man mythos, since they're not just churning out mediocre movies, they're screwing up the comics as well.

I have ideas about the Green Goblin I haven't gotten into in depth, some of which are very much in line with what "Spider-Man" actually delivered well (I really like the weaponry and transportation technology being created under a military contract and I especially love the idea of the "Goblin formula" being specifically intended as a human performance enhancer for a super soldier, because this is the kind of "realism" that actually enhances the story rather than cheapen it), which does not include that costume, and anything you want to contribute would be most welcome. Setting the theoretical films at 2.5 hours minimum (trust me, if it was made well enough, people-- sheep that they are-- would sit through it... they sat through "Lord of the Rings," and I think quality Spider-Man fiction tops that any day of the week) and giving the heaviest hitters of the Spider-Man rogues gallery two movies in which to create mischief, epic battles and tragedy leaves plenty of room for suggestions from the experts.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Herr your Spiderman movie synopsis is excellent,something along those lines wouldve been an ideal way to start the franchise IMO,I wonder do you think the train sequence from SM-2 could be used in your final ock/spidey showdown ?
I honestly have no ideas to add to your story,i have a few for the way i would do SM-3 but thats for another board,i also have ideas for Iron Man,Daredevil and a batman sequel but i'll wait until this Spiderman disscussion has had more time

[Head>On<Collider]

Heh, nice! This thread sure as hell wouldn’t be safe at all within the gates of any movie forum, since people within those country clubs tend to get so gosh darn defensive of the most remote criticism that shed light on their petunias..... :D :up:
Anyway, part of what I’d like to contribute is how any hard working, caring, goal driven producer can organize a well developed synopsis, script, and directing job that could benefit everyone including the studio. It’s possible...... and a well done movie is a well done movie. Anybody with a functioning brain can recognize a good movie from a bad one, but I feel that too many “professionals’ within the film business tend to over analyze the psychology of film goers because they feel that it’s the best route to go... What I say, is that’s no way to go. All the best directors, for example, are men of vision. When one has vision, they have instinct, and they instinctually know how to shoot scenes and puzzle them all together into a masterpiece.
Having said that, let’s look at the basics... it all begins with writing right? There’s this saying I go by as a musician/songwriter, “If it doesn’t sound good when it’s played on either an 8 track or being strummed on a cheapy acoustic guitar, then it doesn’t belong in the studio...” It’s the same with everything else. Movies cost millions and too many millions of dollars get wasted on poor scripts and lousy stories. The story is the backbone of the whole project and it’s essential in order for the film to even have a fighting chance at being a good one. There are no rules of thumb when it comes to this outside of your basic structures; it’s almost 90% instinct.... well, outside of your basic structures like knowing that each story needs a protagonist, a climax, a beginning, a point of conflict(man vs. self, man vs. nature, man vs. antagonist, etc.) and going on and on....
Anyway, moving along now, let’s look at some of my own likes and dislikes...... in a nutshell, it’s rare for me to like a movie like let’s say, “On Golden Pond” ( :D ) yet I happen to love that movie (really)... and it was before my time.... which makes a strong point of how a great movie should be timeless.. anyway, if you look at my avvy, you can see that I’m somewhat of a fan for “Gangs of New York” as well as ... yeah... pretty much all of Scorsese’s movies. I think that all directors should learn from his films if they want to learn from the best. His movies have tons of down to earth action sequences even though one would just classify them as violence only... what he does right is carrying out the dramatic influence that flows within his films and it makes his violent scenes much more effective that your average action directors. So to put into context, I think I have a good angle to express the need for any and all of these future comic book adaptations to hold a strong dramatic element that has a powerful climax.
To illustrate my point even clearer, let me introduce to this little dissertation a character that most people may not even know...... Ummm **pulls paper out of raffle hat** the winner is....

John Bravestar aka/ Thunderbird of the Uncanny X-Men.

I believe that any good production crew could make a great movie on his short comic book life with him going out in a blaze of glory if it was done right. If they did his story right, they would be capable of even having the rest of the X-Men as supporting roles and it would work great. The theme could be about how an extraordinary Native American not only copes with having superhuman abilities, but also having to face his pride and how it may have led to his downfall. Not only that, they could do it in a way that illustrates how a simple human emotion can be disastrous when in the hand of one such super-human and how John may have transcended it in the end by being a hero to the rest of the X-Men as well as the world. If done right, the movie could take you into the world of such a sub-secret-society through the eyes of the one central character while expressing the burden Cyclops has being the main leader 2nd in command besides Xavier as well as Cyclops’ relation to Bravestar’s death and the guilt he may hold afterwards.
The movie could begin not necessarily with his childhood as much as it would showing the angst he went through living in a society that doesn’t allow him to be himself, whereas by the end of the story, he finally gets to be himself on top of an aircraft beating it into scrap metal before it expoded....
It can be done and if it can be done with Thunderbird, then it should’ve been done with all the rest that already came out.... :rolleyes:

[Cullen]

Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.I agree with all of that. Why are you making a movie about Superhero X when you're going to change everything that made Superhero X X-y? It doesn't always bother me enough to not like a movie, but it does bother me.

I think the characters themselves are the important things, rather than the indiviual stories. However, if you are adapting a story, you damn well better get it right.

[SoulManX]

Thank you Logan for the invite here. You know it is sad when the cartoon gets it right but the movie doesn't. X-Men is my example of not a really good movie. Logan was all wrong in that movie and the rest were just bit players. Sabretooth was a complete joke and waste. I waited for the Saban X-Men type Logan and Creed battle. That battle on the screen was utter crap, Singer is not someone I would have picked for this. One day a really director who knows X-Men will create the real X-Men movie we fans want to see.

[Head>On<Collider]

SHOWDOWNS
Almost all comic book flicks come packaged with a showdown. I think that a good showdown needs a good history established between the opposing forces, and the showdown needs to be enough of an edge-seater that the audience almost feels the blows and shots and all that.....
I said it before and I say it now, not only does the audience need to feel part of the scene (unless the director chooses to have as a background sequence, thus it wouldn’t be a showdown anyway....), but they need to feel the danger; the menace factor, the need for a hero in the first place. The audience needs to feel the fear and urgency. Let me rephrase that... we the audience, should be kissing the damn ground for our hero by the time the showdown takes place. That’s how important it is for our villains to be done right. If the villain is done wrong, I don’t care what anyone else says, no matter how well the hero is done right, he/she will; never hold up to how much more effective of a hero that hero would be if the villain is done right.
The source material needs to be intact and written as it was originally envisioned... an old tree is only stronger when nurtured (trimmed, pruned, and most of all, NOT TOPPED AS TOPPING KILLS THE TREE). Too many toppings are taking place and not only is it unnecessary, but it’s also ineffective. Take a well established character and you’ll see a established roots behind them. There was a reason these came into being and unless these characters are dead, then there’s no reason to fix that which isn’t broken. So if one effective and creative director and screenwriter can take an easy 10 minuits to overview a character synopsis, they can just as easily put together a well written, well acted, well directed motion picture experience. So, argue that all you want, but my proof is... **Points at movie DrDoom**
Part of a showdown requires good cinematography, and camera shots. I believe that Jack Kirby had this concept down to a tee. Hell, I remember getting to look at some story and I’m sure everyone here doesn’t need to hear anything about that from little ol’ me... so moving along..
I don’t think it’s always necessary for the showdown to also be the climax.... let’s take a scenario where you have two friends having to take stands against each other for deep reasons that are beyond the two’s relationship. That could be the climax as it’s the parting of ways... and the one moment in both individual’s life to pick a side that they will have to live with and stand for. I do, however feel that if the climax can also be the showdown, then we’d have a killer showdown.

[Herr Logan]

Heh, nice! This thread sure as hell wouldn’t be safe at all within the gates of any movie forum, since people within those country clubs tend to get so gosh darn defensive of the most remote criticism that shed light on their petunias..... :D :up:
Anyway, part of what I’d like to contribute is how any hard working, caring, goal driven producer can organize a well developed synopsis, script, and directing job that could benefit everyone including the studio. It’s possible...... and a well done movie is a well done movie. Anybody with a functioning brain can recognize a good movie from a bad one, but I feel that too many “professionals’ within the film business tend to over analyze the psychology of film goers because they feel that it’s the best route to go... What I say, is that’s no way to go. All the best directors, for example, are men of vision. When one has vision, they have instinct, and they instinctually know how to shoot scenes and puzzle them all together into a masterpiece.
Having said that, let’s look at the basics... it all begins with writing right? There’s this saying I go by as a musician/songwriter, “If it doesn’t sound good when it’s played on either an 8 track or being strummed on a cheapy acoustic guitar, then it doesn’t belong in the studio...” It’s the same with everything else. Movies cost millions and too many millions of dollars get wasted on poor scripts and lousy stories. The story is the backbone of the whole project and it’s essential in order for the film to even have a fighting chance at being a good one. There are no rules of thumb when it comes to this outside of your basic structures; it’s almost 90% instinct.... well, outside of your basic structures like knowing that each story needs a protagonist, a climax, a beginning, a point of conflict(man vs. self, man vs. nature, man vs. antagonist, etc.) and going on and on....
Anyway, moving along now, let’s look at some of my own likes and dislikes...... in a nutshell, it’s rare for me to like a movie like let’s say, “On Golden Pond” ( :D ) yet I happen to love that movie (really)... and it was before my time.... which makes a strong point of how a great movie should be timeless.. anyway, if you look at my avvy, you can see that I’m somewhat of a fan for “Gangs of New York” as well as ... yeah... pretty much all of Scorsese’s movies. I think that all directors should learn from his films if they want to learn from the best. His movies have tons of down to earth action sequences even though one would just classify them as violence only... what he does right is carrying out the dramatic influence that flows within his films and it makes his violent scenes much more effective that your average action directors. So to put into context, I think I have a good angle to express the need for any and all of these future comic book adaptations to hold a strong dramatic element that has a powerful climax.
To illustrate my point even clearer, let me introduce to this little dissertation a character that most people may not even know...... Ummm **pulls paper out of raffle hat** the winner is....

John Bravestar aka/ Thunderbird of the Uncanny X-Men.

I believe that any good production crew could make a great movie on his short comic book life with him going out in a blaze of glory if it was done right. If they did his story right, they would be capable of even having the rest of the X-Men as supporting roles and it would work great. The theme could be about how an extraordinary Native American not only copes with having superhuman abilities, but also having to face his pride and how it may have led to his downfall. Not only that, they could do it in a way that illustrates how a simple human emotion can be disastrous when in the hand of one such super-human and how John may have transcended it in the end by being a hero to the rest of the X-Men as well as the world. If done right, the movie could take you into the world of such a sub-secret-society through the eyes of the one central character while expressing the burden Cyclops has being the main leader 2nd in command besides Xavier as well as Cyclops’ relation to Bravestar’s death and the guilt he may hold afterwards.
The movie could begin not necessarily with his childhood as much as it would showing the angst he went through living in a society that doesn’t allow him to be himself, whereas by the end of the story, he finally gets to be himself on top of an aircraft beating it into scrap metal before it expoded....
It can be done and if it can be done with Thunderbird, then it should’ve been done with all the rest that already came out.... :rolleyes:

His name is actually John Proudstar... Proudstar, God dammit!! :mad:

Achem... moving on...

I think I get what you're saying, and welcome to the thread. :up:
I wouldn't personally use John Proudstar in my X-Men movie (for which I will post my pre-constructed outline after others have chance to voice their own ideas as well as comment on the unspeakably depraved genius inherent in what I've already posted), even though I'd be using a the X-Men line-up of which he was a member (minus Thunderbird himself, Sunfire, the Banshee, and Jean Grey, and plus Kitty Pride). I would, however, have a line in it that says something along the lines of "not everyone who has served with the X-Men is still alive today, Kitty," with an immediately following shot of either pictures or more subtle-yet recognizable mementos of Thunderbird and Marvel Girl/Phoenix.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and draw a connection between what you've said here to what I've been saying about how a talented, imaginative and dedicated production team could bring almost any important aspect of a classic superhero story to the screen in an impressive way, despite the limited vision displayed by makers of the current products out there and also the apologists who defend such shortcomings. Almost nobody on this site seems to believe that. The thing to remember is that you can't properly assess a superhero movie adaptation if you're not truly looking at it as such. Using bull***** excuses like "it's not realistic" are completely devoid of merit, but a more complex question is "is it believable?" That measurement of believability has to be from a certain general perspective. Most of these stories are in large portion some mixture of science fiction and fantasy, and any claim to the contrary is invalid. The main "realism" should concern psychological and sociological aspects, not so much science and fashion sense. And one of the most important things to remember is that there is no such thing as "there being no such thing as a person with this or that characteristic." People are incredibly diverse, or at least the interesting ones are. Nobody can tell me that it's unrealistic for an intelligent young man can't invent amazing devices with which to swing around the city and crack smart-ass jokes during potentially fatal confrontations with immensely dangeorus sociopaths. How would anyone have the authority to say that? Anyone who says such a thing is proving themselves either a liar or shamefully short-sighted, and there really is no possible way they could be correct in their statement. Either you can relate to these characters or you can't. My father couldn't relate to any superhero movie on almost any level, even thought he possesses characteristics of many of the heroes and many of the villains. Am I supposed to take that as a sign that the "general audience" couldn't relate to the same material? Anecdotal evidence, even on the scale provided by this and other similar websites, is not valid proof of anything. The only thing anecdotal evidence is good for is disproving absolute statements, and it does that every single time. Just because jaded yet easily manipulated teenagers and twenty-somethings say that there's no way that a skintight costume and cowl couldn't look good on a character like Wolverine, that doesn't make it remotely true. That reflects only on the speaker, not the verity of the subject matter. There are any number of statements about any number of aspects of these movies that are just plain wrong and are only made out of narrow-mindedness and lack of imagination. And people have the audacity to call the likes of us "negative"?

I have no idea if that rant had anything to do with what you said earlier, HOC. It's just what it made me think of, starting with your first few paragraphs.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Thank you Logan for the invite here. You know it is sad when the cartoon gets it right but the movie doesn't. X-Men is my example of not a really good movie. Logan was all wrong in that movie and the rest were just bit players. Sabretooth was a complete joke and waste. I waited for the Saban X-Men type Logan and Creed battle. That battle on the screen was utter crap, Singer is not someone I would have picked for this. One day a really director who knows X-Men will create the real X-Men movie we fans want to see.

Welcome to the thread, BHK. :up:

Man, the exhanges between Wolverine and Sabretooth in the Saban cartoon were great ("We used to be friends, even work together. But we had some... misunderstandings..."; "I'll 'penetrate his recesses!'"). Wolverine came off like a real badass ("All right, you egg-suckin' piece of gutter trash! You always did like pushin' around people smaller than you! Well I'M smaller! Try pushin' me!") and Sabretooth really did come off as scary with all those snarling noises he made.

I wouldn't have used Sabretooth in a first X-Men movie. If I used him in an X-Men movie and not just a Wolverine solo film, I'd probably have him in a sequel where the main bad guy was Mr. Sinister. Sinister is even less picky about which scum he hires than Magneto, and he has employed Sabretooth in the comics. Sabretooth in a movie of mine would be like in the cartoon-- talktative, sadistic, bestial and horrifying. The best actor for the job is Ron Pearlman. Clancy Brown (whom "Wizard" magazine suggested for the part) also would have been an excellent choice, at least while he was still in prime shape. He had the size, body type, voice and acting skill for the job. He may still, I don't know. Sabretooth would be very obviously a pathological, sadistic, savage killer who hurts people out of compulsion (and thus, for fun), but makes money by killing specific targets for hire. If he and Wolverine were in the same room, it would actually be interesting, not just a cheap stunt show like in the movie they made.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anyway, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.

Dammit, I didn't finish my bit on the Vulture scenes. This often happens when I write long essays over long periods of time, revising various chunks at random and going off on tangents like nobody else can...

Okay, just to tighten it all up, I'll start from here and continue it:
After very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed, he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit complete with collapsable, flexible wings, a noise-less flight pack and a helmet that includes eye-goggles like a sky-diver would wear. He jumps out of a high-story window (where his lab or home would be) and flies around, looking where he knows he'll find that trecherous bastard who cheated him. When he spots the man on the sidewalk outside his apartment building, the Vulture swoops down right at him.
The camera angle would show us the soon-to-be victim's point of view, with the Vulture zooming forward and becoming more visible. Then the camera would switch to Toomes' point of view, with the scared intended victim rushing up in his view. The camera cuts out just as the Vulture flies straight into his backstabbing partner. We're spared the gore, but not the scream and abrupt silence.
Then we see a copy of the Daily Bugle with the story on the incident (without any pictures of the Vulture, just the victim) drop onto a desk at the Daily Bugle and J. Jonah Jameson starts ranting about how they can't get any pictures of the Vulture or that wall-crawling menace Spider-Man. Just as in Sony's film, Jameson calls for an notice placed in the paper offering big bucks to anyone who can get a shot of either of these costumed lunatics (but we don't have to put up with any nonsense from Ted Raimi).
Peter reads the notice and digs up a digital camera (one of his hobbies was photography, and he was given the camera as a special present from Ben and May, 'cuz they wuv him so much). I don't know if the kind of feature Peter had on his camera in the comics existed back then or exists now-- the feature where the camera is on automatic and just keeps taking shots over and over again without having to be triggered by a person (I know next to nothing about cameras, but I'm assuming that a digital camera with a huge amount of memory allotted to it would be much more cost effective for taking dozens and dozens of photos automatically, with only a few of those photos actually capturing something worth looking at, than a traditional camera would be... feel free to enlighten me on this subject)-- but either Peter uses that existing feature or personally modifies his camera to do this (because, again, he's a God damn genius) and then he goes out "bird-watching."
The Vulture is now drunk on power and is on a crime spree, robbing jewelry stores, banks, armored cars with bank shipments, etc. Nobody can stop him. No, wait, someone can! Spider-Man finds the ol' buzzard eventually and sets his camera up where he thinks he can get some nice shots of both himself and the Vulture. Then he engages the Vulture in battle, wise-cracking all the way, and a huge aerial battle begins, spanning at least two miles in distance travelled. You can probably imagine a suitably amazing yet brief Spidey/Vulture scene. Anyway, towards the end of the sequence, Spider-Man basically steers the Vulture back toward where they started off so he can get a few more great shots on his camera. When they're near the spot he needs the Vulture to be in for his publicity shot, Spider-Man slaps his hands on the Vulture's flight pack and yanks a huge chunk of it right off with a combination of his clinging ability and his superhuman strength (in the comics, he used his scientific ingenuity to build a gadget that neutralized the Vulture's flight pack, but given the timeframe of the movie, this works better, and I've already made it clear that Peter would be shown to be a technical and chemical genius in other ways). The Vulture is out of action. How exactly the Vulture gets down-- whether he tries his best to glide without crashing or if Spider-Man carries him down after smacking or webbing him into submission-- is up for grabs. Whatever seems coolest but also quick. All of this should take only a few minutes, from the first time we see Toomes to the time he's in police custody.
Parker gets some amazing shots of this and makes Jameson drool when he brings in the pics. He works out his arrangement with JJJ, gets a suspicious look but a warm welcome from Joe Robertson and a coquettish smile from Betty Brant. :cool:

That's the Vulture bit. From this, we get a totally kickass Vulture partial-origin and battle, the beginning of Peter's career as a freelance photgrapher and his relationships with the Bugle staff. I think this entire chunk of the movie would be important, not only because of what I just listed but because ti would establish Spider-Man in the eyes of the public (in the movie) and the audience as an A-list crime-fighter and a young man with every reason to be cocky when he confronts Octavius for the first time.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Herr your Spiderman movie synopsis is excellent,something along those lines wouldve been an ideal way to start the franchise IMO,I wonder do you think the train sequence from SM-2 could be used in your final ock/spidey showdown ?
I honestly have no ideas to add to your story,i have a few for the way i would do SM-3 but thats for another board,i also have ideas for Iron Man,Daredevil and a batman sequel but i'll wait until this Spiderman disscussion has had more time

Thanks for the feedback, Hunter. :)

When you say "final Ock/Spidey showdown," do you mean the end of Movie #1 or when Spider-Man takes Ock down in Movie #3 (after he's hijacked the isotope/medication that was supposed to cure Aunt May's illness, fought Spider-Man and escaped again, and then accidentally-- but not regretfully-- killed George Stacy)?

Either way, I sure as hell wouldn't even entertain the idea of having Peter take his mask off for any reason during a battle with Ock (and absolutely not with the intention of having civilians see his face or defending his unconscious body), or spending that much time focusing on how much physical trauma he's going through to save the people of New York.
I envisioned the showdown with Ock in the first movie to happen at Coney Island (where he fought Ock in the exact situation I set up for that battle, excluding the part where Peter is flu-ridden and weak and gets beaten and unmasked by Ock in front of the police), but it could happen on a train, as long as Betty Brant was on that train and Ock didn't knock Spidey out or get away. He's supposed to be beaten by Spidey and taken into police/federal custody at the end of that movie.

I'm not entirely sure how I want the third one to flow. I know I want these things in the movie:
-Peter and Gwen Stacy to now be a serious couple
-George Stacy and Joe Robertson comparing notes on Spider-Man and individually keeping an eye on Parker
-Aunt May to either get radiation poisoning from a blood transfusion from Peter (unless that's completely scientifically implausible by even the most lax sci-fi standards in today's world) or be afflicted some other deadly ailment that requires a specially ordered chemical from another part of the country to make her well again
-Doctor Octopus to escape from prison and start building another underworld network, employing some highly trained mercenaries to do his bidding; he needs whatever the special medicine Aunt May needs for whatever reason; his goons hijack the shipment, inciting Spider-Man to track them down and fight Doc Ock for the medicine, and they end up at his lair (hopefully an underwater scientific observation complex Ock has taken over, for maximum faithfulness and James Bond-esque scenery) and then the whole "Final Chapter" bit with Spidey buried under tons of metal and prevailing against the odds, etc., Spidey getting the medicine and getting it to the doctors in time
-Spider-Man to pursue the still escaped Octavius, relying on his scientific prowess to save the day; he devises some way to manipulate the A.I. in Doc Ock's hardware (that Ock has complete control over up until Spidey messes with it) so that it goes out of control and even attacks Ock; but they're in the middle of the city on a rooftop and while trying to regain control of his tentacles, Ock smashes a chimney which almost kills a child but George Stacy saves the day and gets killed for it; Stacy reveals to Spidey he knows he's Peter before dying
-Ock either escapes again or gets beaten to a pulp by Spider-Man and taken back into custody, set for surgery to separate the machine-- or at least a risky metal-cutting procedure to cut the almost unbreakable metal of the contraption in order to sever the tentacles, if not the spine-piece and computer-- from his body
-Gwen Stacy is devastated, hates Spider-Man and Peter feels horrible as well
--Norman is having headaches and bad dreams, and generally feeling a bit green around the gills...

Perhaps the final battle here could involve a train, but like I said, none of that sappy-ass Raimi crap with missing masks and maudlin New Yorkers protecting Spider-Man.

Feel free to post your ideas, but it's also fine if you want to wait. I haven't personally come up with anything for a revamped Daredevil movie or anything for an Iron Man movie (except I know for a fact I don't want the villain to be anything to do with Tony's father, which is what I hear they're going to give us whenever they do the dirty deed, because God knows we need that crap after "Hulk," right?-- in the spirit of "Absorbing Dad," what are us fans gonna call the villain after it's all said and done... the Old Man'darin? Justin Stark? D.A.D.O.K.? Crimson Daddio? the Cold Progenitor?), and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
I do have several thoughts on how to rework "Batman Begins" itself to make it "super excellent" instead of "pretty damn good" (again, this is just theoretical and has nothing to do with what could happen in the future) but I'll wait until others get into the Batman topic, so feel free to share your ideas on that whenever you feel like it.

:wolverine

[Symbiotica]

If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes.

..... look for this to be ignored posthaste as people break down the doors to tell you how perfect everything out there is, especially stuff like "Elektra." And how lucky we all are to get anything at all. [sigh] Where the heck have you been, Logan? Wondered what happened to you, up to the point of worrying a bit.

I would like to see in media res used a lot more in any of these films. It's like we have to first meet the villain and see how he's a pretty normal guy, we have to LIKE him, then we go through this whole business with the origin and all that and he all but becmes an anti-hero. Must we SEE Electro's origin in order to understand that he is a bad guy? [one example of many]. Why not skip that? Sometimes when villains have a silly origin it's just best to avoid that IMO - but they never do. Why must hero & villain be joined at the hip like some perverse yin/yang thing? Is that true IRL? No.

but like I said, none of that sappy-ass Raimi crap with missing masks and maudlin New Yorkers protecting Spider-Man.

A sad finale to a great scene. That really blew my suspended disbelief; I hope we never see anything like that again.

[Hunter Rider]

Thanks for the feedback, Hunter. :)

When you say "final Ock/Spidey showdown," do you mean the end of Movie #1 or when Spider-Man takes Ock down in Movie #3 (after he's hijacked the isotope/medication that was supposed to cure Aunt May's illness, fought Spider-Man and escaped again, and then accidentally-- but not regretfully-- killed George Stacy)?

Either way, I sure as hell wouldn't even entertain the idea of having Peter take his mask off for any reason during a battle with Ock (and absolutely not with the intention of having civilians see his face or defending his unconscious body), or spending that much time focusing on how much physical trauma he's going through to save the people of New York.
I envisioned the showdown with Ock in the first movie to happen at Coney Island (where he fought Ock in the exact situation I set up for that battle, excluding the part where Peter is flu-ridden and weak and gets beaten and unmasked by Ock in front of the police), but it could happen on a train, as long as Betty Brant was on that train and Ock didn't knock Spidey out or get away. He's supposed to be beaten by Spidey and taken into police/federal custody at the end of that movie.

I'm not entirely sure how I want the third one to flow. I know I want these things in the movie:
-Peter and Gwen Stacy to now be a serious couple
-George Stacy and Joe Robertson comparing notes on Spider-Man and individually keeping an eye on Parker
-Aunt May to either get radiation poisoning from a blood transfusion from Peter (unless that's completely scientifically implausible by even the most lax sci-fi standards in today's world) or be afflicted some other deadly ailment that requires a specially ordered chemical from another part of the country to make her well again
-Doctor Octopus to escape from prison and start building another underworld network, employing some highly trained mercenaries to do his bidding; he needs whatever the special medicine Aunt May needs for whatever reason; his goons hijack the shipment, inciting Spider-Man to track them down and fight Doc Ock for the medicine, and they end up at his lair (hopefully an underwater scientific observation complex Ock has taken over, for maximum faithfulness and James Bond-esque scenery) and then the whole "Final Chapter" bit with Spidey buried under tons of metal and prevailing against the odds, etc., Spidey getting the medicine and getting it to the doctors in time
-Spider-Man to pursue the still escaped Octavius, relying on his scientific prowess to save the day; he devises some way to manipulate the A.I. in Doc Ock's hardware (that Ock has complete control over up until Spidey messes with it) so that it goes out of control and even attacks Ock; but they're in the middle of the city on a rooftop and while trying to regain control of his tentacles, Ock smashes a chimney which almost kills a child but George Stacy saves the day and gets killed for it; Stacy reveals to Spidey he knows he's Peter before dying
-Ock either escapes again or gets beaten to a pulp by Spider-Man and taken back into custody, set for surgery to separate the machine-- or at least a risky metal-cutting procedure to cut the almost unbreakable metal of the contraption in order to sever the tentacles, if not the spine-piece and computer-- from his body
-Gwen Stacy is devastated, hates Spider-Man and Peter feels horrible as well
--Norman is having headaches and bad dreams, and generally feeling a bit green around the gills...

Perhaps the final battle here could involve a train, but like I said, none of that sappy-ass Raimi crap with missing masks and maudlin New Yorkers protecting Spider-Man.

Feel free to post your ideas, but it's also fine if you want to wait. I haven't personally come up with anything for a revamped Daredevil movie or anything for an Iron Man movie (except I know for a fact I don't want the villain to be anything to do with Tony's father, which is what I hear they're going to give us whenever they do the dirty deed, because God knows we need that crap after "Hulk," right?-- in the spirit of "Absorbing Dad," what are us fans gonna call the villain after it's all said and done... the Old Man'darin? Justin Stark? D.A.D.O.K.? Crimson Daddio? the Cold Progenitor?), and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
I do have several thoughts on how to rework "Batman Begins" itself to make it "super excellent" instead of "pretty damn good" (again, this is just theoretical and has nothing to do with what could happen in the future) but I'll wait until others get into the Batman topic, so feel free to share your ideas on that whenever you feel like it.

:wolverine

Sorry i wasn't more clear.I did mean the end fight of the 1st movie and i also meant to say that the de-masking would be removed,what i was really getting at was that the concept and execution of the sequence (bar the end)was superb and just wondered if you thought it would be feasible in your plan.
As for Iron Man i HATE:mad: the current story idea for the movie and am praying that they are rewriting it as we speak,my idea would not involve the daddy baddy.
I will post my DD ideas later today

[Herr Logan]

..... look for this to be ignored posthaste as people break down the doors to tell you how perfect everything out there is, especially stuff like "Elektra." And how lucky we all are to get anything at all. [sigh] Where the heck have you been, Logan? Wondered what happened to you, up to the point of worrying a bit.
I didn't mean to make you worry, Symbiotica. :(

Someone in the I am Doom... (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139975&page=168&pp=20) thread said something that hurt my tender little feelings that I new for a fact would not be seen by the powers that be as a serious insult, and I lost my temper. That's a simplified version, so feel free to see for yourself; the incident in question occurs on the page that link goes to.

Bottom line, the unwashes masses are not held to the same standard us critics are, and the majority sentiment-- regardless of how ignorant and puerile it is-- is protected on a larger scale than what the likes of us have to say. That's why I created this "haven." Anyone who tresspasses here has to deal with me on my own turf ("I pity the fool..."), and will unequivocally be the aggressor. I never wanted to spend as much time and energy as I have on pointless arguments with complacent intellects and shallow personalities. My criticisms have always been with the filmmakers first, not the fans who support them. When fans decide to take those criticisms personally and villify critics like myself, that's when they become the target of my anger. This thread welcomes only those who have criticisms about these movies and ideas to supplant the existing flaws or to start over completely. I'm pretty confident that we can be civil to each other, even if we are critical bastards. It's time for some positive energy to keep our "negative" points of view active. Welcome to the Haven, darlin'.

I would like to see in media res used a lot more in any of these films. It's like we have to first meet the villain and see how he's a pretty normal guy, we have to LIKE him, then we go through this whole business with the origin and all that and he all but becmes an anti-hero. Must we SEE Electro's origin in order to understand that he is a bad guy? [one example of many]. Why not skip that? Sometimes when villains have a silly origin it's just best to avoid that IMO - but they never do. Why must hero & villain be joined at the hip like some perverse yin/yang thing? Is that true IRL? No.
I agree. The only time a villain should have an origin or backstory that intersects with that of the hero is if that's how it happened in the comics or if it makes intuitive sense. I think with the Lizard, it does indeed make intuitive sense. In the Spider-Man animated series of the 90's, I think the Octavius/Parker connection was a good thing because it made for such beautiful exchanges between the two that showcased Octavius' love of science and adulation for himself as well as Parker's own love of science and cleverness in dealing with a volatile psychopath.
The way I have it set up in my idea structure for a Spider-Man series, it would be fine to have Peter Parker be familiar with Octavius' previous achievements and writings for a few reasons:
1) to keep this fictional world relatively small in scope (not as small as the animated series, but a bit smaller than Spider-Man's corner of the real Marvel Universe),
2) to give Spider-Man some background knowledge of what he's up again, both in terms of Ock's personality and physical abilities (knowing what the machine Ock wears can do in a fight or an attack on innocents) and in terms of what Ock may do given access to enough high-tech machinery (what his scientific "master plan" might involve, since it would certainly be something the average civilian wouldn't understand how to stop),
3) and to emphasize once again that Parker is truly into science as a passion. I want Peter's genius and passion for science to be as prominent as is practical because that will underscore the ongoing burden of being Spider-Man; people will outright ask him why a top student with such a keen mind and wealth of knowledge isn't pursuing a serious science career outside of his classes, why he's still taking action photos as a freelancer instead of at least working as a lab assistant. The real answer to this question is that he can't maintain a regular work schedule because of reasons the audience knows but he can't discuss with other characters. It's a muted tragedy of sorts, knowing he can live up to his potential in that area of his life because of his extraordinary circumstances.

I'm babbling. Again. Terribly sorry. :o
Okay, back to what you said about villain origins:
I think it's important to see at least a brief glimpse of background or the catalyst for an important or remarkable villain launching his new career. I think it's reasonable to have Doc Ock shown working his magic before it all blows up in his face and he becomes a cyborg. But I'm not going to have him be a personal aquaintance of Peter Parker or in any way portrayed as a good person at any time.
The Vulture would take mere moments to set up as a villain, and he wouldn't be seen as a anti-hero. It would be implied within the one or two minutes of origin scenes he has that Toomes knew he was going to get screwed and waited until it happened so he could pull out a pre-constructed aerial battlesuit to get a revenge he's been looking forward to for a while, and also to start a career as a nigh-unstoppable robber he's been considering for quite some time.
I'm not entirely sure if I'd want the Green Goblin's origin shown before his debut as a villain or told in flashbacks near the climax of the second movie, when Gobby unmasks Parker and then himself before losing his memory in the big fight. It may feel just a bit less contrived to have it play out like in Raimi's film than in the comics (trust me, I haven't turned traitor, I just think they did a decent job with the Green Goblin's backstory in the movie, and I definitely would have kept the military contract aspect, even if the costume would look completely different). Either way, Osborn's a heavy hitter, and he obviously needs some backstory. I'd probably have his character be very similar to how he was in the actual movie. He acts nice, especially around Peter, Gwen and Flash (they'd all be going to college together starting with the second movie, just like God intended), but when Harry isn't with his friends, we get to see what a great father he really is.

I know that Electro is one of your personal favorites, so since you yourself said he didn't need a movie origin, I'm assuming it's safe to agree. Electro is someone I would put in a movie only as a cinematic fight villain, not as a high-concept/master plan villain. I feel the Vulture needed a two-minute origin because he created his own power with technology (and let's face facts, his flying wing-suit gets less and less improbable by the moment in today's high-tech world), but Electro's power is an outlandish power acquired completely by accident. I would want to have some kind of mention of a freak electrical accident involving power lines, strange chemicals and a lightning storm, but we don't need to see it happen. I actually think it would be pretty funny to see this:
Joe Robertson comes rushing into Jameson's office telling him that a new supervillain has popped up that the police have identified as Max Dillon, and in a very, very brief scene we see the accident while Robbie's narrating what happened. We see a disgruntled-looking electrician working on some kind of chemical tank that is either cooled or heated with the aid of electricity and the equipment gets hit by lightning, probably outside, but it could be inside and just have a power surge when the lightning hits something nearby outside. This takes less than 10 seconds to show and describe, and then the scene shifts to downtown Manhattan wear Electro is showing off his powers to the cops while robbing a bank or somesuch and at the same time Robbie says "Now he's an immensely powerful human dynamo who calls himself Electro."
It does sound silly, and it would purposely be, but I reject any attempts to try and make Electro anything other than silly yet dangerous (Ultimate Spider-Man). I'd want him in a modifed version of his classic comics costume-- dark green bodysuit with golden thunderbolt-shaped streaks across it, with a Daredevil-style headmask that has the same kind of flat streaks on it. It wouldn't actually be a starfish mask that sticks out, but when he powers up, a starfish-like electrical energy projection forms around his face. A lot of people on this site hate that idea, but in my mind, it would fit the tone of action and humor of the story.

A sad finale to a great scene. That really blew my suspended disbelief; I hope we never see anything like that again.
Me, too, darlin'. Me, too. I certainly wouldn't allow any of that. I'd be sure to put at least a few grateful civilians in my ideal entire movie series (which would go to like six films), but for the most part what we see is plenty of "He stinks and I don't like him" reactions instead of "He looks out for the people." No post-9/11 New York consolation hand-holding in my series, and no American flags waving during the finale, dammit. That's Captain America and Avengers territory.

Feel free to both any thoughts or comments on any of these movies and movie ideas. Again, welcome to the Haven, Symbiotica. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Sorry i wasn't more clear.I did mean the end fight of the 1st movie and i also meant to say that the de-masking would be removed,what i was really getting at was that the concept and execution of the sequence (bar the end)was superb and just wondered if you thought it would be feasible in your plan.
As for Iron Man i HATE:mad: the current story idea for the movie and am praying that they are rewriting it as we speak,my idea would not involve the daddy baddy.
I will post my DD ideas later today

Yeah, I think that could definitely be feasible for the big end battle between Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus. It just has to coincide with the hostage situation, Ock has to be taken down during that battle and Spider-Man can't take his mask off for even a second. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I'm just so disgusted with the handling of Spider-Man in Raimi's movies. The only instances in my entire series concept where Spider-Man would have his mask off while in costume in (while he's in action or conflict I mean, not when he's changing clothes, which is something we'd actually see in each movie) would be when he gets ambushed and kidnapped by the Green Goblin (just like in the comics and the TV show, he'd be attacked while in his civvies with his and the Goblin would drag Peter through the air behind his glider with his costume showing through his tattered clothes) or while dealing with Venom in the final movie. None of this appealing to the supervillain with puppy eyes and recycled platitudes. None of this ego-stroking face time for the star in inappropriate situations. Peter would show up in a pre-costume outfit complete with mask for his wrestling debut just like in Raimi's movie, but he would not once take of his mask in front of the fight promoter or the agent who signs him up for a TV appearance, or anyone else backstage during either public appearance. And not the God damn burglar/carjacker, either, for God's sake. I would have the guy live and go to jail, just like in the comics, so he can't be looking at Peter Parker's face, no matter how supposedly expressive the actor is described as by critics (or should I say "shills"). No more of this "less is more" crap. It's Spider-Man, dammit, not Sony-Man.

:wolverine

[Joker]

Herr Logan has pitched so many wonderful ideas for the handling of Doctor Octopus that mine seem insignificant.But I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway on what I'd like to see.

Now regarding Ock's first movie appearance I think Logan pretty much nailed it.Introduce Octavius as an arrogant,self absorbed man who looks down at his colleagues and other people in general.In fact I wouldn't have the Doctor Octopus name originate from Jameson.I would have it like in ASM#3 where his colleagues jokingly call him Doctor Octopus behind his back when he wears the tentacle harness to conduct his dangerous experiments.

When Peter meets Octavius Peter would remind him of their time together years ago when Octavius ran the science camp and the words of inspiration Octavius gave him- "Science is the important thing.It justifies all that we do in it's service".I would have Octavius quiz Parker's knowledge on fusion or whatever Octavius' current project was and be impressed by Peter.

Then of course we would have the lab accident and have Octavius awake in the hospital with the doctors and several of his colleagues there.He is told that his projects have been shut down and that he has to undergo major surgery to remove his tentacle harness which will mean destroying it in the process and he will have major spinal damage which will require further surgery.

Octavius flips out and without realising it his tentacles come alive and respond to his thoughts.He attacks and kills his colleagues and takes the hospital staff hostage.In the mean time Jonah Jameson wants pictures of the infamous 'Doctor Octopus' who's project nearly destroyed the city.

Peter Parker goes along and of course finds Octavius has flipped out and is holding the hospital staff prisoner while he raids their labs for materials,chemicals etc.Spider-Man bursts in.Cocky and confident he mocks Octavius calling him Doctor Octopus.Octavius is enraged on how Spider-Man speaks to him and attacks.Spider-Man tries to dodge the tentacles by webbing them up.

Ock merely laughs and snaps the webbing.He then easily ensares Spider-Man in his tentacles and reels him in.Helpless before Ock Spider-Man struggles.Ock delivers the infamous ***** slap along with the immortal words "You dared to mock me before.Why aren't you mocking me now?? Where are your brave words and taunts now Spider-Man??".

I would then have Ock toss Spider-Man thru the window saying "You're no threat to me".With that Ock would gather his materials and leave by climbing down the hospital wall and disappearing into the night.

Ock then finds himself a desserted warehouse on the pier.He decides to prove he is the ultimate genius and rebuild his master project.But he'll need money,materials and other necessities.At a seedy dive somewhere where petty criminals hang out Ock arrives smashing thru the wall.He wants them to help him with his project.He promises they will be paid well.

Ock's next move is to break into Oscorp to steal the parts he needs for his reactor.Norman Osborn mentions the theft to Harry who in turns mentions it to Peter Parker.

Back at the warehouse Doctor Octopus directs his men into rebuilding the reactor.One of them gets irritated demanding to be paid now rather than doing all this labour.Ock grins at him and impales him with a tentacles and tosses the body in the river.He then turns to the others and says "Anybody else unhappy with our arrangement??".The others of course all shake their heads.

The rest of the movie would pretty much follow the way Logan did it.And I would not have Ock die or be captured.I would have him simply disappear and be presumed dead.Hence setting up the Master Planner scenario for his return in a future movie.

Also I would set up Norman Osborn working on the performance enhancers in this movie.I would introduce Captain Stacy,Gwen Stacy too.Just introduce them.Maybe have Captain Stacy meet Spider-Man at the scene of one of Ock's crimes.Preferable after the finale.

I'll pitch my ideas for Ock's return later on :)

[roach]

..... look for this to be ignored posthaste as people break down the doors to tell you how perfect everything out there is, especially stuff like "Elektra." And how lucky we all are to get anything at all. [sigh]

This is your safe haven...we'll leave you guys alone....However I may set up a thread to show you how Hollywood works....you guys pitch your Ideas and I play Joe Superproducer...... :up:

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, I think that could definitely be feasible for the big end battle between Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus. It just has to coincide with the hostage situation, Ock has to be taken down during that battle and Spider-Man can't take his mask off for even a second. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I'm just so disgusted with the handling of Spider-Man in Raimi's movies. The only instances in my entire series concept where Spider-Man would have his mask off while in costume in (while he's in action or conflict I mean, not when he's changing clothes, which is something we'd actually see in each movie) would be when he gets ambushed and kidnapped by the Green Goblin (just like in the comics and the TV show, he'd be attacked while in his civvies with his and the Goblin would drag Peter through the air behind his glider with his costume showing through his tattered clothes) or while dealing with Venom in the final movie. None of this appealing to the supervillain with puppy eyes and recycled platitudes. None of this ego-stroking face time for the star in inappropriate situations. Peter would show up in a pre-costume outfit complete with mask for his wrestling debut just like in Raimi's movie, but he would not once take of his mask in front of the fight promoter or the agent who signs him up for a TV appearance, or anyone else backstage during either public appearance. And not the God damn burglar/carjacker, either, for God's sake. I would have the guy live and go to jail, just like in the comics, so he can't be looking at Peter Parker's face, no matter how supposedly expressive the actor is described as by critics (or should I say "shills"). No more of this "less is more" crap. It's Spider-Man, dammit, not Sony-Man.

:wolverine

Gotta agree with most of that,The idea of Goblin dragging him along with his Costume showing through his tattered clothes sounds great:up:
I also want no sympathetic villany,let a bastard be a bastard damnit:mad: :up:

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan has pitched so many wonderful ideas for the handling of Doctor Octopus that mine seem insignificant.But I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway on what I'd like to see.

Now regarding Ock's first movie appearance I think Logan pretty much nailed it.Introduce Octavius as an arrogant,self absorbed man who looks down at his colleagues and other people in general.In fact I wouldn't have the Doctor Octopus name originate from Jameson.I would have it like in ASM#3 where his colleagues jokingly call him Doctor Octopus behind his back when he wears the tentacle harness to conduct his dangerous experiments.

When Peter meets Octavius Peter would remind him of their time together years ago when Octavius ran the science camp and the words of inspiration Octavius gave him- "Science is the important thing.It justifies all that we do in it's service".I would have Octavius quiz Parker's knowledge on fusion or whatever Octavius' current project was and be impressed by Peter.

Then of course we would have the lab accident and have Octavius awake in the hospital with the doctors and several of his colleagues there.He is told that his projects have been shut down and that he has to undergo major surgery to remove his tentacle harness which will mean destroying it in the process and he will have major spinal damage which will require further surgery.

Octavius flips out and without realising it his tentacles come alive and respond to his thoughts.He attacks and kills his colleagues and takes the hospital staff hostage.In the mean time Jonah Jameson wants pictures of the infamous 'Doctor Octopus' who's project nearly destroyed the city.

Peter Parker goes along and of course finds Octavius has flipped out and is holding the hospital staff prisoner while he raids their labs for materials,chemicals etc.Spider-Man bursts in.Cocky and confident he mocks Octavius calling him Doctor Octopus.Octavius is enraged on how Spider-Man speaks to him and attacks.Spider-Man tries to dodge the tentacles by webbing them up.

Ock merely laughs and snaps the webbing.He then easily ensares Spider-Man in his tentacles and reels him in.Helpless before Ock Spider-Man struggles.Ock delivers the infamous ***** slap along with the immortal words "You dared to mock me before.Why aren't you mocking me now?? Where are your brave words and taunts now Spider-Man??".

I would then have Ock toss Spider-Man thru the window saying "You're no threat to me".With that Ock would gather his materials and leave by climbing down the hospital wall and disappearing into the night.

Ock then finds himself a desserted warehouse on the pier.He decides to prove he is the ultimate genius and rebuild his master project.But he'll need money,materials and other necessities.At a seedy dive somewhere where petty criminals hang out Ock arrives smashing thru the wall.He wants them to help him with his project.He promises they will be paid well.

Ock's next move is to break into Oscorp to steal the parts he needs for his reactor.Norman Osborn mentions the theft to Harry who in turns mentions it to Peter Parker.

Back at the warehouse Doctor Octopus directs his men into rebuilding the reactor.One of them gets irritated demanding to be paid now rather than doing all this labour.Ock grins at him and impales him with a tentacles and tosses the body in the river.He then turns to the others and says "Anybody else unhappy with our arrangement??".The others of course all shake their heads.

The rest of the movie would pretty much follow the way Logan did it.And I would not have Ock die or be captured.I would have him simply disappear and be presumed dead.Hence setting up the Master Planner scenario for his return in a future movie.

Also I would set up Norman Osborn working on the performance enhancers in this movie.I would introduce Captain Stacy,Gwen Stacy too.Just introduce them.Maybe have Captain Stacy meet Spider-Man at the scene of one of Ock's crimes.Preferable after the finale.

I'll pitch my ideas for Ock's return later on :)

Nice ideas, Ock. :up:

Some of them probably could not, in my not-so-humble opinion, fit within the storyline I've got bouncing around my head, but unless it's a strictly collaborative story, that doesn't matter. These things include:
--Having Peter and Octavius be personal aquaintances, especially not under amicable circumstances. Also, I don't want Peter to have any personal feelings about Octavius, just an inherent respect for his intellect and his actual work. I feel it would be easier to accept Spider-Man breaching the hospital and starting a fight with Ock with irreverent comments and a mocking tone (and this is while Octavius is still recovering from a near-fatal accident and is now a veritable freak) if he didn't have any kind of attachment to the guy beforehand. In "Spider-Man 2," Spider-Man didn't say more than a few words to Ock that weren't pleading for the life MJ or Aunt May or trying to appeal to his better nature. I want to avoid all that.
Then again, they did a pretty good job of making Peter a teacher's pet for Octavius but still a sufficiently snarky and irreverent adversary in the animated series in the 90's. But in the episode "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous," it was made clear that Peter was not present during Octavius' accident. It would have to be the same way here, or else he'd have too much reason to be sympathetic, and a Spider-Man who's overly sympathetic to Doc Ock wouldn't be a good thing.
--having Ock escape without being caught in the end, since I'd want it established that he can in fact be taken down, albeit not without a hell of a lot of effort and a little luck. Also, I'd love to give Ock an opportunity to rant at the law enforcement people taking him in and guarding him in prison, telling how it's just a matter of time before he figures a way out...
--having Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn know Peter Parker in the first movie (if that was in fact what you had in mind, which isn't necessarily true), since I want them to meet in college and have the evolution from antagonists to friends thing happen. I do like the idea of George Stacy being introduced here in a marginal capacity (he becomes a prominent character in the next movie, along with Gwen and Harry) because of his status as a police captain, and it would be okay to have him mention his daughter in passing to someone else (like how she's graduating high school this year and going to E.S.U., which is where, by the end of the film, we'll know Peter will be attending through a science scholarship) or talking to her father on the phone or whatever.


One thing I probably forgot to mention in my synopsis is that, just as you said, the moniker of "Dr. Octopus" would come not from the media but from Octavius' co-workers or students (if he's a lecturer as well as a research scientist, which is merely an option and not necessarily a preference) well before his accident, just like in the comics. I can understand the desire of the studio to muffle the cheese factor a bit when it comes to the villain naming themselves, but considering there was a perfectly good source for Ock's name in the comics, there was no reason for Jameson (or Hoffman, who's a an obvious symptom of nepotism rather than a useful character) to actually invent the name other than to continue a trend from the first movie. I would use the Daily Bugle as the device by which the nickname Dr. Octopus gets spread to the public, but the actual source would be the co-workers that the a Bugle reporters (Ben Urich or Ned Leeds) interview after Ock becomes big news. To really boost the "realism"/relevance factor, it would be even better it's actually the police who first get told the name Dr. Octopus by Otto's co-workers and then that becomes their nickname for him, which subsequently gets passed on to the press and then the public at large. This sounds complicated and time-consuming, but it can be done in mere seconds throughout the course of a few scenes. The reason this is even better than the press getting the nickname directly from the interviewees is because, as many of us know, notorious serial killers and mass murderers tend to be given nicknames by the police well before they're ever caught. As a criminology student, having this be a part of a Spider-Man story appeals to me.


These are the things I would definitely assimilate into my storyline from what you posted (with permission):
--Obviously the whole scenario for the initial contact between Spidey and Ock. That's something I'm totally on the same page for.
--Actually showing Ock recruit his underlings instead of leaving it vague, and also having the thugs he hires be generic street-scum found in a sleazy dive like Josie's Bar and Grill (a venue that's a big part of the Daredevil'mythos) or somesuch, instead of "skilled labor" (trained mercenaries). This would help show Octavius' own learning process when it comes to being a supervillain, and how he improves his methods when he comes back in the third film (he'll seek out trained mercs that are better workers and allow for a wider range of services than the gangster wannabes Ock hires in the first). I'm not sure if I intended to leave it vague, but I know I didn't state a specific idea for the recruitment.
--Having the scene where Octavius either disciplines or outright smashes one of his underlings for being a klutz involve a dispute over payment instead. Actually, it could be both, because it would be awesome if Ock killed one of his men for being impertinent (which he's done in the comics before) in front of the rest of them and then put on his friendly smile again and tells a thug who's moving equipment around to be careful with that. And then he takes another puff on his cigar and looks sort of relaxed again. :D
Also, having his lair be in the same kind of location it was in the movie
--Like I said before, I'd want Captain Stacy introduced here. He could be the one to tell a reporter that Octavius was mockingly called "Doctor Octopus" by his colleagues, who were actually pretty scared of that device he wore. Considering what happens to Stacy in the third movie, it would be especially appropriate if he were closely involved with the manhunt for Octavius to begin with, even though Ock doesn't intentionally hurt Stacy in movie #3 (not that he wouldn't).
--Octavius stealing supplies and equipment from OsCorp. Great way to tie the universe together a bit, and also to establish that OsCorp is the "go-to" company when it comes to advanced technology and chemicals. Remember that OsCorp is primarily a chemical company.
Your idea provides a perfect opportunity for something I wanted to happen in my six-movie layout: I want Sergei Kravinov to take a variant of the same performance enhancer serum that Osborn developed for the military. That way, Kraven the Hunter's physical abilities will be no more implausible than those of the Green Goblin (take that, "reality" junkies!). I wanted the drug to make it onto the black market, and if it got out on the street before the Green Goblin was even created, there's no telling whose hands it could fall into by the 4th or 5th movie. One or more of Ock's thugs could grab whatever they happen to see while helping Ock raid the labs and storage units and that's how the drug makes it outside of OsCorp. We can see Norman Osborn introduced briefly while being presented with the news that their facilities have been ransacked and there's been a lot of damage and missing property.
I wouldn't want Ock to have worked for OsCorp when the accident happened, though. If he worked there at some point in the past, that would be good, because he'd have at least some knowledge that would lead him to choose OsCorp as a place to get what he needs for his city-wide blackmail plan.

That's all that comes to mind right now. I hope that's at least somewhat readable. Again, good stuff, Ock. Like I told you before, if I was choosing a team of writers and consultants for a Spider-Man movie, you'd be on it. :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Daredevil
This is my DD idea but its not a script so i broke it into sections

Characters
Obviosuly Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson(this time not a comedy sidekick) ,i would also use Karen Page and NO Elektra in the first movie,the other 2 main characters would be Bullseye and Kingpin,secondary characters would be Turk and Electro

Story
My story would start with a flashback sequence to Matts past showing how he came to be who he is(not that dissimilar to the moviehttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif )but there would be no Kingpin killing his father.It would also show him at college and how he comes to meet Foggy and a student named Elektra Natchios.We would then see Foggy and Matt set up their law firm together with Karen Page as there secretary,The story would then flow into his first time out as DD going up against Electro like in Daredevil yellow.
I dont have an exact story from there but it would feature Matt in court defending a man who ran a shipping company accused of shipping arms into and out of the US,the man is of course unaware this has happened but is busted (in an earlier scene) by the river police and Matt steps up to be his laywer b/c he believes him and also cos he is sure the case is connected to the notorious Kingpin.The film would be balanced between courtroom scenes,Matt undercover in disguise at the docks and DD cleaning up various enterprises the Kingpin has along with Scenes of Kingpin meeting with the various crime families who are upset with the chunk DD is taking outve their profits,Kingpin would kill one of the heads of the families in a brutal act of violenence to keep the rest of the families in check and then hires Bullseye to take out Daredevil.im not totaly sure how it would end(im working on ithttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif ) but i do know Kingpin would not be caught and would not dicover DD's identity,also at no point would Matt do something brash while not in costume,the park scene in the movie was the stupidest scene in any comic book movie IMO and totaly went against the character

Costume's
DD would NOT wear Leather,think of a video game like MGS and that is the type of material DD's suit should be made from,a light kevlar of the variety myself and Herr have disscussed several times
Bullseye would have a similar design in suit material to DD only his would be in black,i would make the belt more like the belt Batman has in BB and make it metalic as opposed to white and the boots would also be black,i would give him the mask but make it more like a special opps mask but with an etched metalic ingrained bullseye logo in the forehead

Cinematography/Music
I would use the same colour pallette of Se7en with no bright and brash colour,an almost washed out sepia hells ktichen with DD's red a dusk dull shade but prominent against the bleak backdrop
Music-wise i would use a score,preferably by John Williams or Hans Zimmer,no jingly pop rockhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif


And thats pretty much how i would do Daredevilhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif

[Herr Logan]

This is your safe haven...we'll leave you guys alone....However I may set up a thread to show you how Hollywood works....you guys pitch your Ideas and I play Joe Superproducer...... :up:

Welcome, roach. Pull up a chair. I think I see one directly in front of Doc Ock and Symbiotica that looks comfy. :cool:

:wolverine

[roach]

Welcome, roach. Pull up a chair. I think I see one directly in front of Doc Ock and Symbiotica that looks comfy. :cool:

:wolverine

I think I'll stand in the back. ;)
While I comend you guys for wanting to see unadultrated versions of our favorite heroes I realize that Hollywood is the city of compromise....I wish it wasnt that way but it is..... :down

[Herr Logan]

I think I'll stand in the back. ;)
While I comend you guys for wanting to see unadultrated versions of our favorite heroes I realize that Hollywood is the city of compromise....I wish it wasnt that way but it is..... :down

Well, now that we've all been apprised of that piece of cutting-edge news, do you have any criticisms of existing movies and/or ideas for improving them and/or ideas for creating a brand new superhero franchise? :)

:wolverine

[Joker]

No I definitely would not have Peter have any personal feelings for Octavius.He is his idol.A scientific idol whom he admires for his work.That is all.

In fact Peter may even admire Octavius' drive and determination.But his cold manner towards his fellow workers and to people in general is something Peter would not approve of.In fact a nice little touch might be a scene where we see Octavius speak rather rudely to a certain lab assistant named Mary Alice.

If Ock was to be captured at the end I would again like to borrow from the 90's animated show the scene where we see Ock caged in a steel cell with his tentacles locked to the wall.And Ock utters the words "Stone walls do not a prison make,nor iron bars a cage.Not against the genius of Doctor Octopus".

I especially like your idea of the Bugle spreading the Doctor Octopus name around after interviewing Ock's former co-workers.I think the 'Doc Ock' name should come from Spider-Man though.

Another thing is I would want no interaction between Octavius and the Osborn's,Octavius and the Osborn never met in the early days and I liked that they didn't step on eachothers toes,two big fish but sharing a very big pond.I liked how he had his own little company called 'Otto Octavius Inc' in SM-2.But in our movie I'd just having him working in a separate company which pulls the plug on his projects after his accident sending him into a fit of rage.

With regards to costumes I would have him wear the white armani suit and possibly the trenchcoat over it when he goes out in disguise with the hat.And I would have him have the bowl cut too.It's all part of his personality.This chubby,arrogant scientist with an awful hair cut but a genius nonetheless and very arrogant and egotistical.

And of course I would cast Alfred Molina as Ock.He's perfect for the role.Both physically and as an actor.

[Herr Logan]

Daredevil
This is my DD idea but its not a script so i broke it into sections

Characters
Obviosuly Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson(this time not a comedy sidekick) ,i would also use Karen Page and NO Elektra in the first movie,the other 2 main characters would be Bullseye and Kingpin,secondary characters would be Turk and Electro

Story
My story would start with a flashback sequence to Matts past showing how he came to be who he is(not that dissimilar to the moviehttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif )but there would be no Kingpin killing his father.It would also show him at college and how he comes to meet Foggy and a student named Elektra Natchios.We would then see Foggy and Matt set up their law firm together with Karen Page as there secretary,The story would then flow into his first time out as DD going up against Electro like in Daredevil yellow.
I dont have an exact story from there but it would feature Matt in court defending a man who ran a shipping company accused of shipping arms into and out of the US,the man is of course unaware this has happened but is busted (in an earlier scene) by the river police and Matt steps up to be his laywer b/c he believes him and also cos he is sure the case is connected to the notorious Kingpin.The film would be balanced between courtroom scenes,Matt undercover in disguise at the docks and DD cleaning up various enterprises the Kingpin has along with Scenes of Kingpin meeting with the various crime families who are upset with the chunk DD is taking outve their profits,Kingpin would kill one of the heads of the families in a brutal act of violenence to keep the rest of the families in check and then hires Bullseye to take out Daredevil.im not totaly sure how it would end(im working on ithttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif ) but i do know Kingpin would not be caught and would not dicover DD's identity,also at no point would Matt do something brash while not in costume,the park scene in the movie was the stupidest scene in any comic book movie IMO and totaly went against the character

Costume's
DD would NOT wear Leather,think of a video game like MGS and that is the type of material DD's suit should be made from,a light kevlar of the variety myself and Herr have disscussed several times
Bullseye would have a similar design in suit material to DD only his would be in black,i would make the belt more like the belt Batman has in BB and make it metalic as opposed to white and the boots would also be black,i would give him the mask but make it more like a special opps mask but with an etched metalic ingrained bullseye logo in the forehead

Cinematography/Music
I would use the same colour pallette of Se7en with no bright and brash colour,an almost washed out sepia hells ktichen with DD's red a dusk dull shade but prominent against the bleak backdrop
Music-wise i would use a score,preferably by John Williams or Hans Zimmer,no jingly pop rockhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif


And thats pretty much how i would do Daredevilhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/redface1.gif

*applauds*

That's awesome, Hunter!

My only qualm would be in using Electro. I saved all of the files to my computer that were included on that Marvel Encyclopedia CD-ROM that has the first ten of every major Marvel property from the Silver Age, but they don't seem to open properly, so I can't check my facts right now. Still, I have the impression in my mind that Daredevil fought Electro within the Baxter Building while doing some legal/realty errand for the Fantastic Four. Didn't he only win the fight against Electro because he had all that equipment at his disposal, or am I completely off-base here? I think that even if Marvel Films (an ideal Marvel Films) was owned by a singular production studio and the different properties could intermingle, perhaps Daredevil's first movie shouldn't feature a battle in which Daredevil defeats a villain completely out of his power class by using toys and traps belonging to another major Marvel property. If I'm wrong about this, then disregard all of this completely.

Aside from that issue (which is only an issue if my vague recollection is on-target), again I think this sounds great. I look forward to hearing more from you. :up:

:wolverine

[roach]

Well, now that we've all been apprised of that piece of cutting-edge news, do you have any criticisms of existing movies and/or ideas for improving them and/or ideas for creating a brand new superhero franchise? :)

:wolverine


lol
Hulk......I would have had him fight the Army longer. The San Fran scene would have been longer too. Perhaps the government learns of the process of how Banner jacked himself up and they use it to create their own Hulk. The results would be the Leader or The Abomination.

Daredevil.......DD finds out who the Kingpin is but cant prove it and the Kingpin doesnt get arrested in the end.

[Hunter Rider]

*applauds*

That's awesome, Hunter!

My only qualm would be in using Electro. I saved all of the files to my computer that were included on that Marvel Encyclopedia CD-ROM that has the first ten of every major Marvel property from the Silver Age, but they don't seem to open properly, so I can't check my facts right now. Still, I have the impression in my mind that Daredevil fought Electro within the Baxter Building while doing some legal/realty errand for the Fantastic Four. Didn't he only win the fight against Electro because he had all that equipment at his disposal, or am I completely off-base here? I think that even if Marvel Films (an ideal Marvel Films) was owned by a singular production studio and the different properties could intermingle, perhaps Daredevil's first movie shouldn't feature a battle in which Daredevil defeats a villain completely out of his power class by using toys and traps belonging to another major Marvel property. If I'm wrong about this, then disregard all of this completely.

Aside from that issue (which is only an issue if my vague recollection is on-target), again I think this sounds great. I look forward to hearing more from you. :up:

:wolverine

Thanks Herr:up:
my idea for the DD/Electro showdown came from Daredevil yellow in that story DD came up against Electro in the baxter building when he was there on a case but the fight immediately went outside as DD chased him across NY,they ended up in a theatre fighting,DD was getting his ass kicked when he noticed the sprinkler system(in case of fires in these places i believe) and threw his billyclub at it to set it off,the water dowsed Electro and we all know how water and electricity react:eek:
I would take this idea but have Electro robbing a bank.

[Herr Logan]

No I definitely would not have Peter have any personal feelings for Octavius.He is his idol.A scientific idol whom he admires for his work.That is all.

In fact Peter may even admire Octavius' drive and determination.But his cold manner towards his fellow workers and to people in general is something Peter would not approve of.In fact a nice little touch might be a scene where we see Octavius speak rather rudely to a certain lab assistant named Mary Alice.
Yes! It would be great if we saw Octavius speak rudely to Mary Alice (and her feelings are noticably hurt as she walks away) and this is witnessed by a couple of colleagues nearby who go back and forth talking about him. One of the scientists or lab assistants or whatever they are comments to the other one about what a winning personality Octavius has, and how much of a pleasure it must be to work as closely with him as Mary Alice does. The other one replies that Otto's much worse when he goes off on everybody other than Mary Alice, and that pretty much everyone's afraid of him, even when he's not wearing that creepy contraption of his. Then the first one says that he knows exactly what he's talking about, and how people call the guy "Doctor Octopus" due to his freakish tentacle machine thingie.

If Ock was to be captured at the end I would again like to borrow from the 90's animated show the scene where we see Ock caged in a steel cell with his tentacles locked to the wall.And Ock utters the words "Stone walls do not a prison make,nor iron bars a cage.Not against the genius of Doctor Octopus".
Exactly. I was thinking the same thing, although there's room for perhaps an even better line, and there should also be a scene where Ock has some massive restraining device placed over his tentacles by the feds and loaded into a heavily armored van set to take Otto to the Vault in Colorado, either directly or via a special military-type plane or somesuch. While he's being dragged into the van, he should be ranting or at least scowling like nobody's ever scowled before.
Towards the very end, we should see him in his special cell in the Vault. I don't know how exactly they'd neutralize his tentacles, because I personally prefer them to be virtually unbreakable (just like they were when he reinforced them with adamantium in the comics) and somehow impervious to heat like in the movie, and it would be really, really creepy if it was currently impossible to destroy, nullify or turn off the power cells of his harness (without killing him in the process of trying every conceivable option). I don't know how in the movie those tentacles were supposed to be immune to magnetism, but I'm thinking if we left that out in this story, they could use super-magnets to keep the tentacles harmless during Ock's captivity. I mean, it didn't really make sense, the way it was set up in the cartoon. Where was the toilet? Perhaps there could be super-magnets on the ceiling that roll along tracks so that Otto can move at least somewhat while his tentacles are firmly in the grip of those magnets, and everything's set up so he can't easily swing his body into another person in the cell.
The guards that enter the cell to do basic maintenance and allow Ock phone calls to his lawyer (I can't really see them needing to deliver food to him personally, since they have ways of getting around that, like with Hannibal Lecter) wear heavy armor that would range anywhere between what a bomb squad agent wears to the Iron Man-esque Guardsmen armor from the comics. The Guardsmen armor, if used, should either be a mainstay of the Marvel property that would use it most or it should available to all properties that would use the Vault to detain supervillains. Ideally, all of them should have access to the Vault and the Guardsmen, and SHIELD as well.
I want to see Ock ranting softly to himself while in the cell for the few minutes he's seen there (becaue he really is just up the road from full-blown psychotic, and driving him totally crazy would be a very short drive), and then when the heavily armored guard comes for whatever reason, Otto should be all pleasant and polite to him. He should greet him, ask him how he's doing and comment that he hopes the guard is well compensated for the service he provides, etc. This is the same kind of behavior Hannibal Lecter (he's a good model in some situations) is likely to display, and typical of a fully functioning sociopath. People wanna see realism? Well there's nothing more realistic than the implied backstory and behavior patterns exhibited by the real Dr. Otto Octavius. This is the most dangerous type of criminal, especially because he's not only highly intelligent but actually a full-blown genius in a field of science that could wipe out humanity (and of course there's the physical power of his tentacles), and here we see him working his charm right from the very beginning of his incarceration, leaving a wider array of options available with regard to escape than if he was just nasty (i.e. honest) with the guards. The transition from monologuing like a deranged misanthrope to a charming, cultured individual should be instantaneous yet smooth, and it should happen the second Otto is aware of the guard's presence. Sorry I'm spending so much time rambling about this tiny aspect, but I think scenes such as this are golden opportunities for character development and powerful subtext. I have a feeling that you'd agree, Ock.

I especially like your idea of the Bugle spreading the Doctor Octopus name around after interviewing Ock's former co-workers.I think the 'Doc Ock' name should come from Spider-Man though.
Yes, it should pretty much always be Spider-Man who takes the villains' codename/media label/alias and turns it into a cutesy or irreverrent nickname. Jameson can make up his own epithets for these people, but Spidey gets dibs on the abbreviations and nicknames we fans are familiar with. :up:

Another thing is I would want no interaction between Octavius and the Osborn's,Octavius and the Osborn never met in the early days and I liked that they didn't step on eachothers toes,two big fish but sharing a very big pond.I liked how he had his own little company called 'Otto Octavius Inc' in SM-2.But in our movie I'd just having him working in a separate company which pulls the plug on his projects after his accident sending him into a fit of rage.
Agreed, and that last part is the perfect way to set off Ock's new life of violence. While I like the idea of there being an A.I. computer installed in the harness to assist with the work the machine was built for, I'm absolutely against it being an influence on Octavius's decisions. If there is an "inhibitor chip" that prevents the A.I. from overriding Octavius' thoughts and cybernetic commands, it should be buried in the most heavily protected part of the apparatus. The only time the A.I. should have any real influence in contradiction to Octavius' own wishes is in the third movie where Spider-Man finds a way to override the surge protectors and antivirus software and other defenses of the machine and causes it to malfunction and attack itself, which ultimately results in the death of George Stacy. Anyway, I wouldn't want Dr. Octopus to start wreaking havoc on the hospital staff and property without actually being awake for it. The computer should basically go into "standby" mode, just like a PC does when it's left alone for a while. I think it does make sense for the programming to direct the device to defend itself from attack when Ock is asleep, but it should only do this if there is a big enough threat to the structural integrity of the device. Unless they take a chainsaw to the tentacles like they did in the movie (which wouldn't actually do any damage to it in this new continuity), then the machine should remain inert. I make this distinction because I think the wake-up scene should start off with a member of the hospital staff using some sort of cutting implement to test the durability of a tentacle's outer casing, and then when they suggest using something harder/more powerful, they're told by the doctor in charge (who probably just walked back into the room) that for God's sake, don't do that! From what little information Octavius left in the notes they could find regarding his machine, if the machine detects somebody messing with it who doesn't know how to operate it (i.e. anybody besides Otto Octavius), it'll defend itself if it's turned on. It'd be like bumping the mouse when the PC monitor is on standby, but the computer has hands and *****-slaps you for disturbing it. Well, it's turned on, and nobody can figure out how to turn it off, because Octavius has kept a lot of info about his invention completely to himself. So don't mess with it!
So Octavius wakes wearing scrubs (the pants half only) with bandages over his eyes. His retinas (or whatever) were burned somewhat in the explosion, and he's very sensitive to light now. He insists on taking the bandages off and demands some sunglasses. Now, dammit! And then they explain the situation to him. He's not very pleased, but still he's pretty calm for the moment, and the tentacles aren't moving at all. He makes some calls a bit later (all of the Ock stuff will be cut up into multiple scenes interspliced with whatever Spider-Man/Peter scenes are happening simultaneously throughout the movie) and he hears from his lab corporation or university or whatever that his project has been shut down permanently. Just like you said, this is what sets him off, both because it hurts his ego that they’re cutting him off and it’s forcing him to accept the fact that he royally screwed up in his experiment. The tentacles come alive and start trashing the place, not in an “Evil Dead” style. No auteur trademarks from people like Sam Raimi. If any current director should be able to put his own trademark on a Spider-Man movie, it’s Joss Whedon, because his major trademark that carries over between productions is the style of humor, which is pretty close to what belongs in Spider-Man movies. Anyway, yeah. That was a lot of rambling about what you said in like one sentence. :o


With regards to costumes I would have him wear the white armani suit and possibly the trenchcoat over it when he goes out in disguise with the hat.And I would have him have the bowl cut too.It's all part of his personality.This chubby,arrogant scientist with an awful hair cut but a genius nonetheless and very arrogant and egotistical.

And of course I would cast Alfred Molina as Ock.He's perfect for the role.Both physically and as an actor.
Yes, yes and yes, :up:

See, I can be succinct, once in a great while. :cool:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

lol
Hulk......I would have had him fight the Army longer. The San Fran scene would have been longer too. Perhaps the government learns of the process of how Banner jacked himself up and they use it to create their own Hulk. The results would be the Leader or The Abomination.

Daredevil.......DD finds out who the Kingpin is but cant prove it and the Kingpin doesnt get arrested in the end.

Sounds good to me. :up:

I have plenty of my own ideas for a Hulk movie, but I'm saving those for later.
I'll just say this:
In my version, the only antagonists in the first movie would be the military and Banner's inner demons. In many ways, his father is indeed the biggest villain of the story, but he would only appear in flashbacks, and while he'd be a military scientist, his only contribution to the creation of the Hulk would be his abuse of little Bruce and the murder of his wife, which creates the Hulk personality that lays dormant until Bruce is an adult. It would be very psychological, but in a clinical way (Dr. Leonard Sampson would play a big role), and there would be plenty of action and dialogue from the Hulk.

I hadn't thought of how I'd handle the Leader or the Abomination in a later movie (although I'm certain it would be as faithful as is practical to the source material), and your ideas have got me thinking.
I like the idea of the military recreating what happened to Bruce. The Abomination should still be a foreign spy of some kind that gets turned into what he becomes either by a freak accident or by the actions of his own government, but the Leader was just a janitor who worked on a military base (if not the military base) where gamma ray technology was being used.
In a freak accident, Samuel Sterns-- a janitor with a pretty low IQ-- was irradiated and became a super-duper green genius with the ability to control other people's minds when he touched them. I think a good way to bring him into a sequel would be to have the American military "volunteer" him for an experiment where they turn him into a Hulk and use him to figure out how to take down the original one. Bruce Banner is a genius, and when he becomes the Hulk, he loses a lot of his scientific intelligence and aquired knowledge, but he by no means is stupid in that form. The Hulk is naive, simplistic and a scientific layman, but he's very cunning and clever when it comes to engaging or evading enemies. If the Hulk was dumb, he'd be easier to capture and neutralize. Maybe if a dumb guy like Sterns was the Hulk, he'd be that dumb Hulk they need. Unfortunately, when Sterns becomes a gamma mutation, he's at least ten times as smart as Bruce Banner, without any physical powers. His intelligence and mind control alone makes the people on duty when Sterns is forced into being this guinea pig helpless before him, for he is now the Leader!

Again, cool idea. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Thanks Herr:up:
my idea for the DD/Electro showdown came from Daredevil yellow in that story DD came up against Electro in the baxter building when he was there on a case but the fight immediately went outside as DD chased him across NY,they ended up in a theatre fighting,DD was getting his ass kicked when he noticed the sprinkler system(in case of fires in these places i believe) and threw his billyclub at it to set it off,the water dowsed Electro and we all know how water and electricity react:eek:
I would take this idea but have Electro robbing a bank.

Ah, yes, the mighty sprinkler. If only Electro's overbearing witch of a mother had forced li'l Max Dillon to always carry an umbrella like the Penguin's mother did, he'd have a higher success rating. :D

Cool stuff. Make sure to let us know if you come up with more. :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Ah, yes, the mighty sprinkler. If only Electro's overbearing witch of a mother had forced li'l Max Dillon to always carry an umbrella like the Penguin's mother did, he'd have a higher success rating. :D

Cool stuff. Make sure to let us know if you come up with more. :up:

:wolverine

see it's always the parents fault:( :D
I'm trying to tie it all up in my head so that the stroy strands link up and make sense:o

I look forward to you take on the Hulk:up:
i wrote a Hulk 2 synopsis a while back but never a complete restart

[Boom]

I'll eventually get around to posting :o:up:.

[Herr Logan]

I'll eventually get around to posting :o:up:.

What the hell am I supposed to do until then? How long are you gonna keep us waiting?? :mad:

I suppose I could continue running background checks on all the scum that spoke ill of me while I was in stir. :(

Anyway, I look forward to whatever you bring to the table. :D :up:

:wolverine

[The Green Goblin]

I have ideas about the Green Goblin I haven't gotten into in depth, some of which are very much in line with what "Spider-Man" actually delivered well (I really like the weaponry and transportation technology being created under a military contract and I especially love the idea of the "Goblin formula" being specifically intended as a human performance enhancer for a super soldier, because this is the kind of "realism" that actually enhances the story rather than cheapen it), which does not include that costume, and anything you want to contribute would be most welcome.
:wolverine

Thanks Herr, I agree with those "updates" as well and I do have some things to add which I'll get around to later which pertain to how they could have done the above and STILL been true to the twisted HALLOWEEN GOBLIN side of Norman Osborn as well... Look forward to your ideas.

[The Green Goblin]

Finally saw F4 and while it was an enjoyable, "fun" flic they REALLY screwed up Dr Doom IMO, and I mean worse than I could have ever imagined. He was HORRIBLE ... I mean a friggin joke.

Why can they not do Marvel's marquee villans right? :mad: :bomb: :(

[Sardaukar]

Finally saw F4 and while it was an enjoyable, "fun" flic they REALLY screwed up Dr Doom IMO, and I mean worse than I could have ever imagined. He was HORRIBLE ... I mean a friggin joke.

Why can they not do Marvel's marquee villans right? :mad: :bomb: :(

I actually didn't mind how they did Magneto. He was probably the best portrayed of all villains in these movies.

Consider...they got his past dead on. They got his motivations dead on. They didn't do too bad with his costume, as the helmet was at least there. They acknowlege the fact that he and Xavier used to be friends. Plus, he starts out by gathering a band of evil mutants, as he does in the comics. Sure he was older than in the comics, but what can you do when he supposedly lived through WWII?

Anyways, good ideas all, and also I like your ideas on Spidey, Herr. I might talk more about that later.

But, first I invite you to look at this thread I've created in fanfic. It is the beginnings of my detailed plot for a reasonably faithful FF movie and clears up a lot of problems I had with the movie.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189908

[Symbiotica]

When fans decide to take those criticisms personally and villify critics like myself, that's when they become the target of my anger.

It never ceases to amaze me how personally 98% of fans take insults to their favorite creators: to insult the creator is to insult the honor of the fan's mother, or something. It's ridiculous. This is why people don't take our complaints seriously; immature behavior.

Okay, back to what you said about villain origins:
I think it's important to see at least a brief glimpse of background or the catalyst for an important or remarkable villain launching his new career. I think it's reasonable to have Doc Ock shown working his magic before it all blows up in his face and he becomes a cyborg. But I'm not going to have him be a personal aquaintance of Peter Parker or in any way portrayed as a good person at any time.

I enjoyed seeing GG's and Ock's origins. I'm just not sure if we need to see that every single time. Would Spidey never look up and see the Vulture swooping down on him out of the blue? Bah, he's not going to have the luxury of knowing his enemy every time - sometimes they should just SHOW UP. We can do flash-backs later, maybe.

Electro is someone I would put in a movie only as a cinematic fight villain, not as a high-concept/master plan villain.

O no, I don't think he's the master-planner type at all: we have Ock for that. Electro is far from a brilliant guy. In fact it would tick me off to see that, like I was ticked to see Ock telling Peter to "feed her poetry." WHAT?! Ock lives in the lab, he's not quoting *poetry* at women. What women!? Please! Self-absorbed. So yes, there I agree. Your scenario for his origin is good.

[and what's all this about Doom not being from Latveria in the FF movie?! God almighty... now I don't want to see it. why must this incessant tinkering with stuff go on?!]

It does sound silly, and it would purposely be, but I reject any attempts to try and make Electro anything other than silly yet dangerous (Ultimate Spider-Man).

There we must disagree: I think he should grow in power as the film progresses, which is true to the comics. But although he may be powerful, super-smart is not really his forte. I don't want to see him as a total idiot, but he's not a genius.

I'd be sure to put at least a few grateful civilians in my ideal entire movie series (which would go to like six films), but for the most part what we see is plenty of "He stinks and I don't like him" reactions instead of "He looks out for the people." No post-9/11 New York consolation hand-holding in my series, and no American flags waving during the finale, dammit. That's Captain America and Avengers territory.

They've have been kicking him while he was down, not passing him around like he's the Holy Grail or something! And they'd be digging for their picture-phones. Gah, what a horrible scene. This is why "family friendly" rankles me - we get that kind of sappy stuff.

That said, what you people are saying about Iron Man is scaring me, and I'm hardly a huge IM fan. :( Sounds... awful.

[Symbiotica]

This is your safe haven...we'll leave you guys alone....However I may set up a thread to show you how Hollywood works....you guys pitch your Ideas and I play Joe Superproducer...... :up:

Oh, I know..... [sigh] they just wreck everything. I once read an extremely funny article in Fangoria by David Schow, describing his experiences scripting Friday the 13th pt.3, or one of those sequels, anyways. He went through every single cool thing they had in the script, and how it was discarded as "too expensive" by the bigwigs. Every single good idea got ripped to shreds; had it been done correctly the film would have been excellent.

I'll never understand buying a good property and then completely gutting it.

I remember how thrilled I was that Clive Barker was going to direct "Lord of Illusions" himself, and then what we got bore NO RESEMBLANCE to the excellent story it was based on. None. What the Hell....? As a huge Barker fan I have found most of his films so disappointing....

And now Doom is no longer Latverian. It makes you question the entire meaning of life! Well almost, LOL

[roach]

Oh, I know..... [sigh] they just wreck everything. I once read an extremely funny article in Fangoria by David Schow, describing his experiences scripting Friday the 13th pt.3, or one of those sequels, anyways. He went through every single cool thing they had in the script, and how it was discarded as "too expensive" by the bigwigs. Every single good idea got ripped to shreds; had it been done correctly the film would have been excellent.

I'll never understand buying a good property and then completely gutting it.

I remember how thrilled I was that Clive Barker was going to direct "Lord of Illusions" himself, and then what we got bore NO RESEMBLANCE to the excellent story it was based on. None. What the Hell....? As a huge Barker fan I have found most of his films so disappointing....

And now Doom is no longer Latverian. It makes you question the entire meaning of life! Well almost, LOL


oh Doom was Latverian he just wasnt the Latverian dictator we have known since forever

[Cullen]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Meant to answer this post when I first saw it, but life up and smacked me in the face.

Still looking for a job that'll help pay for those meds you so desperately need, eh, Cullen? :( Yes. I mean NO! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST! :p

Well, what you've done-- directly or indirectly-- is challenge my idea, which is good. That's what we should be doing. Here's my defense:

The goal here is to be strike the best balance of faithfullness, general entertainment value and artistic quality as possible in a superhero adaptation, while also giving some consideration as to marketing value with the so-called "general audience." I'm not going to put a lot of time into explaining how my ideas on Spider-Man will stack up against the expectations of the general audience because I'm already convinced that Spider-Man done properly is the most likely out of all the superhero frachises to sit well with both fans and casual viewers.Agreed across the board. This should be the case in any form of adaptation, but you know that. Everyone knows that.

Except 90% of Hollywood. And 90% of the 10% who do know that aren't making films...

(percentages pulled out of the air by cullen makes crap up inc. not our fault if their wrong.)

First of all, let me say that I have indeed thought ahead and taken the option of several films into account; in fact, that's the only way I have thought about it.
The reason I want to present the villains line-up the way I've chosen is not only to be faithful to the comics. I believe that faithfulness to the Spider-Man continuity is the best bet for a story, because I truly believe it was brilliantly done back in the day.
The thing about Doc Ock and the Green Goblin showing up in the first two movies is that Ock was definitely not a shadowy behind-the-scener (new term coined, and I want a quarter every time someone else uses it; cash and checks accepted) in the beginning, and the Green Goblin isn't a huge, personal threat to Peter Parker (as opposed to just Spider-Man during the workday) until the end of the second movie, where he finds out Peter's identity and then loses his memory and becomes a ticking time-bomb that Peter has to see every once in a while (since he's a family friend at this point). Dr. Octavius gained his new lease on life and fought Spider-Man twice in the course of one issue. I believe the newly created war between Spider-Man and Dr. Octopus can be stretched out to several days or weeks, and it isn't intended to be something hideously sinister as it would be with someone who had a real chance at hurting Spider-Man where it counts (like the Goblin will, later). He gets his new power, he schools Spider-Man in front of God and everybody, he moves on with the intention of proving his badassery (25 cents per use) to the world and making money at the same time, Spider-Man messes everything up and proves himself a threat to Ock, and then there's the showdown that changes Spider-Man's life (because it results in the breakup of Peter and Betty, which teaches Parker yet another lesson in being a superhuman with a conscience that won't quit).All in all very reasonable. My out look, however, has been hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I would think making three quality films in a row on a single subject would be pushing my luck. Not because I couldn't do it (if I used that sort of thinking, I wouldn't be doing this sort of exercise) but because of all the crap that sometimes goes on behind the scenes at Hollywood.

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.I like the Vulture a great deal, don't get me wrong, but he never was in the same sort of league as Ock or the Goblin. Ock tends to be city threatening event-unto-himself, while Goblin has a Moriarity vibe to him. He's more of a casual enemy rather than the full scale nemesis the other two are.

And while he'd be good in a one scene fight (with maybe appearances later)... I think that's underusing him. I can think of three scenes I'd like to see: The Vulture dropping Spider-man in the water tank (from his first appearance, of course), The Vulture dropping Spidey from a great height, and the finale be their battle through the Daily Bugle (his second appearance, needless to say).

Now that would be spectacular.

(As for Ock working in the shadows, I have two words for you: Master Planner. Great story.)

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anywa, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.I like most of this (especially the theme.) Personally, though, I'd just use the goggle idea and keep the Vulture's costume looking like Ditko. But that's just me.

Actually, I think it would be best to have the Vulture fight before Ock, because Spider-Man taking on the Vulture is the basis for Peter Parker beginning his relationships with the Bugle staff (Jameson, Robertson and Betty Brant in particular), and it would be best if Spider-Man went into his first fight with Ock feeling very confident. Taking down the Vulture is no easy task, so it makes perfect sense that Spider-Man wouldn't think much of a stationary villain who just woke up out of a coma confined in a smaller space like a hospital interior. And that's why it's so poignant when Doc makes Spidey his ***** during their first battle. He learns not to underestimate Octavius right then and there. The more I think about all this, the more I see "learning" as a main theme of the franchise, because it always seems Spidey is learning something from each battle and life event that makes him more careful in the future.Part of me wants, in my movies, to have Ock appear in the second film, punk Peter, then vanish from the series until, say, the fourth film. Don't ask me why; it just seems right some how.

Anyway, another main reason why I feel it's fine to bring out the big guns in the first few movies is because I don't plan to get rid of them in their debut films.I agree with that. I don't see the need to kill any of the villians save Goblin. Although, once again, Ock has proven most indesctructable in the past, so you probably could kill him at least once, then bring him back...

Doc Ock debuts in movie #1 and comes back in movie #3 to do something horrible (even if unintentionally, or should I say "serendipitously"). The Green Goblin debuts in movie #2, looms in the background of movie #3 as he's supposed to lie dormant in the mind of the seemingly healthy Norman Osborn, and comes back in full force in movie #4, doing something horrible to Peter (very much on purpose) and getting killed in the end. Throughout all of this are Peter's troubles with school, work, girls, family, etc. and several battles with smaller-scale villains like Electro (again, an A-list villain by himself, but a short-sighted thug compared with the visonaries and masterminds that seem to cause the real damage in Peter's life), the Shocker (someone who seems like a joke now, but was a serious powerhouse who schooled Spider-Man soundly in his first appearance), etc. The point is to balance all of these elements to maintain both a cinematic beginning/middle/end structure but also have it be a continuous saga at the same time. It is very true that a cartoon series would be more appropriate for a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man (or any other hero property), but I honestly believe it could be done in film. Spider-Man out of all other heroes could be done faithfully on film in a long-running movie franchise (I'm thinking 6 films, beginning with the origin and Dr. Octopus and ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson).Y' had me right up until the "ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson". But nopers, can't see it. Why would you want to end your series on multiple down notes? :( :D

(I've mentioned my hatred of M.J., but I also don't care for Venom. His first appearance was pitch perfect, but after that he sunk damn quick. I understand that I'm in the minority on this, and that's cool. I will add one cavet, and this applies to both characters, I think they both had and have potential for something special. It's just that I don't think that's been reached.)

On the subject of films v. series, it's not that I don't think it can be done that it can be done on film. I just think some stories, such as the "The Night Mary Jane...", er, "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", would have more resonance as a part of a series. More time to flesh out the characters, to grow attached to them, to miss them when they're gone. An example straight off the top of my head would be the deaths of Jenny Calander and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I find it much more difficult to dream up economically viable, well-organized movie plots in a long-running series for the Batman, X-Men, Fantastic Four and Hulk, and I haven't even put much thought into the Avengers, yet (which is fine, because I don't have as much familiarity with that character property as with the others). I can understand you having problems with all of the characters you've listed except for Batman. Batman should be easier than Spider-man. Very few of his foes have superpowers and his actions would rarely need CGI, unlike the wallcrawler. He's the one I'd have the least problems making movies about. ('Course as my Batman knowledge stems mainly from the cartoon series, the T.V. Series, and the four or five comics I've had with him in it, I might be missing something...)

While I personally wouldn't start a Spider-Man movie franchise off in the middle of the action as with a Greek epic (I know what "in medias res" means, too, Mr. Smartypants :p), I wouldn't drag out the non-action beginning content like they did in the existing Spider-Man movie.I can never be quite sure what's common knowledge and what isn't. I'm quite likely to think everyone knows just what I'm talking about. I tend to confuse a lot of people that way.

(And in a wide variety of other ways... But that's a different subj... ZZZZZZZ)

For one thing, all that "all about a girl" crap wouldn't be there. There would be establishing content which would show how Peter relates to his teachers (very briefly), Flash Thompson and Liz Allen (the girl he likes but doesn't go all mushy over, especially since she doesn't just ignore him, she's outright rejected him before and has taken part in the mocking Peter experiences daily) and the school body in general. The point is to fill all of that time up with interesting, entertaining, snappy dialogue that keeps the viewer laughing and the movie coasting at reasonable speed.Which is as it should be. The movie should be a cross between a forties detective movie like The Thin Man and a high voltage Kung Fu flick. Among other things.

*stops car, checks map*
Am I still on topic? Maybe I should ask for directions. :o

:wolverineYour thread, man. You're on topic if you say you're on topic.

And on that note I close. I tire, and there are other things I should be doing, as enjoyable as this is. I realize you have more to say on the Vulture later on, and I hope to get to it soon, as well as read any comments you have on this post.

Until then...

[Herr Logan]

It never ceases to amaze me how personally 98% of fans take insults to their favorite creators: to insult the creator is to insult the honor of the fan's mother, or something. It's ridiculous. This is why people don't take our complaints seriously; immature behavior.

I enjoyed seeing GG's and Ock's origins. I'm just not sure if we need to see that every single time. Would Spidey never look up and see the Vulture swooping down on him out of the blue? Bah, he's not going to have the luxury of knowing his enemy every time - sometimes they should just SHOW UP. We can do flash-backs later, maybe.
I didn't intend to have Spider-Man see the Vulture's origin, or be familiar with Adrian Toomes at all before he sees the Bugle offer mucho cash (at least by Jonah's definition) for pictures of the winged terror who's stealing the city's money and threatening one of its most prominent citizens (I've decided I want his shady business partner to be Norman Osborn and therefore the Vulture's revenge can't actually happen; I'm in the process of writing up another long-winded batch of explanation in response to our friend the Green Goblin's post in which I'll explain why the Vulture and Osborn should be connected in this way). There would only be about two minutes of content involving Toomes before he's in the sky and on the hunt. The hunt lasts mere seconds, because something (I'll have to figure this out) abruptly causes the Vulture to abandon it. Then a very brief montage showing the Vulture on a crime spree intermixed with introductory scenes of the Daily Bugle staff and Peter getting his photography equipment ready for action. Then a few minutes of all-out Spidey/Vulture action. All in all, Adrian Toomes will not take a lot of time in the movie, but I believe having a lightning-quick origin scene before he dons the suit would benefit the entire story (all six or whatever movies) in both profound and subtle ways, which I'll try to sum up briefly:
The threat of the Vulture serves to further solidify the sci-fi theme of the franchise, establish what Spider-Man is capable of (Vultchy is his first supervillain), introduce the Daily Bugle and get Peter Parker working there, and to establish Norman Osborn's unethical behavior as well as one of many reasons he's becoming psychologically unstable (becoming paranoid and feeling vulnerable, and this is in addition to Octavius raiding his warehouses later on... so by the time we see Osborn in the second movie-- where ven more distressing stuff will occur-- he's close to a nervous wreck).
Again, Peter has nothing to do with Toomes directly, and there's no sap-factor at all. Just an old curmudgeonly buzzard getting (justifiably) pissed off and instantly becoming one of the most visually exciting supervillains ever.

O no, I don't think he's the master-planner type at all: we have Ock for that. Electro is far from a brilliant guy. In fact it would tick me off to see that, like I was ticked to see Ock telling Peter to "feed her poetry." WHAT?! Ock lives in the lab, he's not quoting *poetry* at women. What women!? Please! Self-absorbed. So yes, there I agree. Your scenario for his origin is good.

[and what's all this about Doom not being from Latveria in the FF movie?! God almighty... now I don't want to see it. why must this incessant tinkering with stuff go on?!]
Exactly. Nothing like that would ever happen under my watch. Octavius in my movie idea would be just as he is in the comics, with arguably just a little more emphasis on his charming, sociopathic demeanor when it's appropriate. No wife, no love for humanity, no redemption. Just Dr. Octopus the way we like him.
And don't get me started on Dr. Doom. They might have to send me away for three more weeks. :rolleyes:

There we must disagree: I think he should grow in power as the film progresses, which is true to the comics. But although he may be powerful, super-smart is not really his forte. I don't want to see him as a total idiot, but he's not a genius.
My own idea does not include Electro as a long-lasting villain. He'd be another flashy fight for Spider-Man (but done faithfully and respectfully, every step of the way), and I haven't yet imagined that this sequence would have nearly as much relevance and impact to the overall story as the Vulture fight. The one thing that springs to mind is that it can teach Spider-Man that it is possible for normal humans to become immensely powerful adversaries through a complete accident and not the result of tampering with technology such as the Vulture, Dr. Octopus, and the Green Goblin, and later on the Shocker, the Lizard, the Chameleon, Kraven the Hunter, Spencer Smythe and the Scorpion. I planned to have Venom at the end, but he's not a tech-villain either, since it would be the real Venom (as opposed to Ultimate Venom) who knows next to nothing about lab science.
The Spider-Man saga here would be a series of lessons, the biggest ones coming from Uncle Ben, Betty Brant, the Green Goblin and Venom.

Feel free to share your own thoughts on a movie version of Electro, or anything else for that matter.

They've have been kicking him while he was down, not passing him around like he's the Holy Grail or something! And they'd be digging for their picture-phones. Gah, what a horrible scene. This is why "family friendly" rankles me - we get that kind of sappy stuff.
Seriously... I mean, I'd definitely give the movies a moralistic undertone (because you have to, it's Spider-Man!) and a cap on how dark or violent it can get (basically, the line is drawn right between Venom as a Spider-Man villain and Venom as a gorey Lethal Protector, and there's absolutely no room for Carnage... the latter two concepts do, however, belong in a Venom spinoff series), but there's no excuse for this maudlin crap. No poetry-reading, wife-having Doc Ock... no Spider-Man beloved by all New Yorkers... no working-class heroes standing up to superpowered sociopaths. They should be only as sentimental as Stan Lee's stories were, and when those got overly maudlin, Stan outright said it was and moved on. Tongue-in-cheek is the name of the game, not lovey-dovey.

That said, what you people are saying about Iron Man is scaring me, and I'm hardly a huge IM fan. :( Sounds... awful.
Same here. It's digusting. I'm proud of my little list of nicknames for Iron Man's nemesis, though. :o

:wolverine

[bluejake01]

Herr Logan, what are you "whining" about now you "nitpicking" "fanboy" (fanboy is meant in a deragotory manner) ?

:D

[Herr Logan]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Meant to answer this post when I first saw it, but life up and smacked me in the face.

Yes. I mean NO! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST! :p
Well get on it, man! Get help while you you're still-- I mean, while we're still young!!

I like the Vulture a great deal, don't get me wrong, but he never was in the same sort of league as Ock or the Goblin. Ock tends to be city threatening event-unto-himself, while Goblin has a Moriarity vibe to him. He's more of a casual enemy rather than the full scale nemesis the other two are.

And while he'd be good in a one scene fight (with maybe appearances later)... I think that's underusing him. I can think of three scenes I'd like to see: The Vulture dropping Spider-man in the water tank (from his first appearance, of course), The Vulture dropping Spidey from a great height, and the finale be their battle through the Daily Bugle (his second appearance, needless to say).

Now that would be spectacular.
Damn right, it would. I have to keep the Vulture's screen time limited due to all the awesome Parker/Spidey/Ock content I want to cram into a long (at least 2.5 hours) but still all-too-short running time. Keep in mind, I want to maximize the use of all the important supporting characters like Aunt May, J. Jonah Jameson, Joe Robertson, Betty Brant, Flash Thompson and Liz Allen. My vague estimate for how long the Vulture should be onscreen is ten minutes, but that's not set in stone (or in script, fo that matter... this is all just vague imagining that will hopefully become more and more concrete, even if it won't turn into a marketable product of any kind). I currently see the Vulture as fulfilling several important purposes for the big picture in just those few minutes. What would be ideal is if the actual execution could be done in such a way as to blow away the audience with the action and acting/dialogue and still leave them ravenously hungry for more. I don't see the Vulture coming back for another round in the first movie, and I think I'd rather not have him show up as the Vulture in the same movie as the Green Goblin (don't want them skies too crowded). While I have just a few reservations about the Vulture appearing in the same movie where Dr. Octopus comes back , I do think it would be great if he came back in movie #3. Again, if he shows up here, he serves more purposes than just being a great visual/action villain (where he could do the whole Bugle building fight with Spidey) and an excuse for Spidey to let loose with the quips (which would never be in short supply in this movie series). I just thought about how he could collaborate with Herman Schultz-- a recidivist safe-cracker with a gift for invention to rival that of Adrian Toomes-- which would set up the Shocker as an action villain for a future movie. The other thing I was thinking of was having Spider-Man see the Vulture gliding in the distance and immediately feel ill at the thought that the Green Goblin has regained the memories (both of how much of a badass he is and of Spider-Man's secret identity) he lost in movie #2 and is back in action. Oh, wait, it's the Vulture (which is a relief because he won't have to worry about Toomes stalking his loved ones, and to be honest, the Vulture is less dangerous than the Green Goblin as a villain), now meaner and more formidable than ever.

(As for Ock working in the shadows, I have two words for you: Master Planner. Great story.)

I like most of this (especially the theme.) Personally, though, I'd just use the goggle idea and keep the Vulture's costume looking like Ditko. But that's just me.
As I said somewhere in an earlier essay-- er, I mean "post"-- the Master Planner story was my idea for movie #3.

My idea for revamping the Vulture's costume was what I thought would be a reasonable concession to the "realism" junkie crowd. To be honest, I would approve of a less slightly more muted appearance of a bird of prey, with more of the technical aspect of the suit (not all, just some) made more obvious, but I wouldn't. The suit should look somewhat armored, but not too heavily. I don't think I want to make the suit an official strength-enhancing exoskeleton, but I do want Toomes to be a very strong septugenarian while he wears it. There should definitely be gauntlets on his hands, preferably with claw-like extensions. The suit color should be dark green almost all over. The goggles are necessary, for obvious reasons, and I did want to make them binocular-type instruments just so those damn reality-junkies wouldn't question why the Vulture was able to spot his prey from so very far away, and I thought a crash helmet would be appropriate, especially considering that one of the men who called himself "Vulture" in the comics saw fit to wear one. Actually, my favorite Vulture story of all time is when the real vulture broke that punk (Blackie Drago) out of prison, gave him a set of wings and then proceded to beat the living crap out of him in front of God and everybody, just to prove who the real Vulture really was. Anyway, the only other main concern with the "realism" issue is to make sure that whatever he wears around his neck (that feathery/furry collar of his) extends up far enough that it offers support and helps keep him from snapping his own neck while flying. I want it to look as close as possible to the original while making the stylish aspects into functional ones as well.

What did you have in mind when you said you wanted it to look like Ditko's design? Did you have any specific thoughts as to what the material would be made of or what the purpose of the vertical-line pattern would signify? Speak, damn you! I want your ideas!

Part of me wants, in my movies, to have Ock appear in the second film, punk Peter, then vanish from the series until, say, the fourth film. Don't ask me why; it just seems right some how.
Do you mean you would want Ock to appear in the second film after already being the main villain in the first, or to show up briefly in the second for the first time and then have a stronger presence in the fourth?

I agree with that. I don't see the need to kill any of the villians save Goblin. Although, once again, Ock has proven most indesctructable in the past, so you probably could kill him at least once, then bring him back...
I'm assuming that when you say "kill him at least once, then bring him back..." you mean have him disappear in an explosion or collapsing building or whatever, with no body being found.
I thought about going that route, and I would like that to be an option for the third movie, but I'm really in love with the possibilities inherent in having him taken into custody and imprisoned at the end of the first movie.

Y' had me right up until the "ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson". But nopers, can't see it. Why would you want to end your series on multiple down notes? :( :D

(I've mentioned my hatred of M.J., but I also don't care for Venom. His first appearance was pitch perfect, but after that he sunk damn quick. I understand that I'm in the minority on this, and that's cool. I will add one cavet, and this applies to both characters, I think they both had and have potential for something special. It's just that I don't think that's been reached.)
Venom's involvement in the final movie would play out in tune with his first appearances. I would definitely keep the Lethal Protector aspect in that I'd have it made clear that he thinks he's a hero and actually does save a few people from other criminals, but it would also be clear that he's a deluded hypocrite. Venom's vision of himself, his actual heroic deeds and the hypocrisy of it all are what make him interesting to me on a psychological level. I think he'd make a good movie villain if done properly.

In this series, Mary Jane would make a brief cameo in the first movie but wouldn't meet peter.
She'd meet Peter in the second movie (where he's in college and struggling to fit in with Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy and his old nemesis Flash Thompson) and they'd be instantly attracted to each other. Due to her being far from Peter's type at the time, Peter ends up dating Gwen instead and they fall in love by the end of the second film. Mary Jane ends up dating Harry Osborn.
Things remain pretty much the same (this is discounting all the little details and exchanges these college-age kids have than don't involve romantic attachments and brushes with villainy) throughout the third movie with MJ, but Gwen is devastated by the death of her father. Things get strained between Gwen and Peter toward the end of the third one and in the fourth one, Gwen is killed and Mary Jane is there to console Peter (and also Harry, whose father was found impaled and nearly naked in one of his warehouses).
In the fifth movie, Peter and Mary Jane are falling in love (don't worry, it wouldn't be anything as sappy as Sam Raimi's movies). By the beginning of the sixth movie, Peter is in possession of the alien symbiote and has either revealed his secret to Mary Jane or she's revealed she already knew. The symbiote is rejected by Peter as soon as he learns what it is and Brock has already been fired and humiliated (it'll be something very similar to the actual story, where Brock did many interviews with a man claiming he was the notorious serial killer plaguing the city, and Spider-Man caught the real culprit). Brock meets the symbiote, it's true love, they stalk and terrorize Spider-Man and Mary Jane, Venom gets taken down, Peter and MJ get married.
I wanted to end the series here because I think Venom is the last truly great Spider-Man villain created and that the story gets much less interesting once Peter gets married. I'd try to end it on a happy note (and I don't just mean with a wedding, I mean something hardcore Spidey fans will love).

On the subject of films v. series, it's not that I don't think it can be done that it can be done on film. I just think some stories, such as the "The Night Mary Jane...", er, "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", would have more resonance as a part of a series. More time to flesh out the characters, to grow attached to them, to miss them when they're gone. An example straight off the top of my head would be the deaths of Jenny Calander and Tara on [i]Buffy the Vampire Slayer
That's a good point, but I think it's worth a shot in a multi-film series. Done properly, there's a good chance the mvoie characters will be as compelling as the comics book characters.

I can understand you having problems with all of the characters you've listed except for Batman. Batman should be easier than Spider-man. Very few of his foes have superpowers and his actions would rarely need CGI, unlike the wallcrawler. He's the one I'd have the least problems making movies about. ('Course as my Batman knowledge stems mainly from the cartoon series, the T.V. Series, and the four or five comics I've had with him in it, I might be missing something...)
I think the Batman is definitely more difficult to sell to the public than Spider-Man. I'm not saying he isn't wildly popular, and I'm not saying I'd make any unreasonable (from a true fan's perspective) compromise if making a Batman movie franchise, and I have plenty of my own ideas about that as well. I'm saying that Spider-Man has elements from all film genres, and the Batman does not. The average Batman story is not a romance story, and when that comes into it, it's supposed to be pretty messed up. The average Batman story is not a comedy, even if it can be very funny. The average Batman story is dark, dirty and depressing. There's nothing wrong with that, and any decently made Batman story will hold true to this, but it's not as easy a sell to the "general," popcorn-munching, girl-dating, mind-numbed audience. I would never concede Spider-Man's brilliant mind when it comes to a story, even if pansies like Sam Raimi would. But Spider-Man's intelligence can be sold as were window dressing. The intelligence and brooding nature of the Batman is pervasive. It's not something important that supplements his winning personality. It is his personality. He's not a friendly, accessable guy. I have no problem with that, and that's how I like it, but the Batman as a person is not as appealing to most people as Spider-Man is. That's a problem many of DC's characters have, but the Batman especially, since he's the "jerk." He's the "obsessive-compulsive." He's the "stern authority figure." He's amazing, but he's not as "well-rounded" and universally appealling as Spider-Man. This is only important insofar as it should be child's play to make a proper Spider-Man movie, and yet they came light years closer with "Batman Begins" than they did with either Spider-Man movie. This is not tribalistic idiocy speaking. I've paid for hundreds of Spider-Man comics, and I only have as many Batman comics as I do (which still isn't even a decent fraction of how many Spider-Man comics I've acquired) because I feel guilty if I don't buy at least one comics when I'm reading a whole stack of unworthy comics at the store, and Marvel is rarely worth paying for anymore. One is not better than the other. One is just more widely marketable than the other. That's all.

Which is as it should be. The movie should be a cross between a forties detective movie like The Thin Man and a high voltage Kung Fu flick. Among other things.
Exactly.


Your thread, man. You're on topic if you say you're on topic.

And on that note I close. I tire, and there are other things I should be doing, as enjoyable as this is. I realize you have more to say on the Vulture later on, and I hope to get to it soon, as well as read any comments you have on this post.

Until then...
Happy reading. Hope your schedule is free. :0

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan, what are you "whining" about now you "nitpicking" "fanboy" (fanboy is meant in a deragotory manner) ?

:D

Oh, everything's fine. Let's talk *gestures into the Haven*

*lowers blinds*

Doc Ock, be a pal and make sure that door stays locked while my friend and I discuss a few things... :unishr:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Oh, everything's fine. Let's talk *gestures into the Haven*

*lowers blinds*

Doc Ock, be pal and make sure that door stays locked while my friend and I discuss a few things... :unishr:

:wolverine

:eek: :mad: :up:

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

BTW i got no PM reply:( is all cool ?

[Herr Logan]

:eek: :mad: :up:

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

BTW i got no PM reply:( is all cool ?

Check your PMs now. And talk to an administrator about lightening up on that God damn 5,000 character length limit for PMs. Makes things so much more difficult when I have edit things down in a word processing program and do word counts until it's just right... :o

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I was wondering will you be including your Jack'O'Lantern/Osbourne numbered accounts idea into your series of movies ?

I don't remember a good deal of what I wrote about that one. Did I send that to you in a PM or was in posted in a thread? If it was a PM, I don't think I have it anymore. :(

When they banished me, I could still use the PM function, but the limit for the entire PM box (for both Sent and Received) was brought down to 50, even though I had over a hundred already. I had to delete almost everything in order to communicate with people here for the last few weeks. :mad:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Check your PMs now. And talk to an administrator about lightening up on that God damn 5,000 character length limit for PMs. Makes things so much more difficult when I have edit things down in a word processing program and do word counts until it's just right... :o

:wolverine

Got it,I will get onto the hype's inner workings immediately:o :up:

[Hunter Rider]

I don't remember a good deal of what I wrote about that one. Did I send that to you in a PM or was in posted in a thread? If it was a PM, I don't think I have it anymore. :(

When they banished me, I could still use the PM function, but the limit for the entire PM box (for both Sent and Received) was brought down to 50, even though I had over a hundred already. I had to delete almost everything in order to communicate with people here for the last few weeks. :mad:

:wolverine

I feel a movie called the Herrshank redemption in the works:( :up:
The idea was in a thread where we were disscussing Hobgoblin after Latino review "confirmed":rolleyes: him and sandman as the villauns for SM-3

[Herr Logan]

I feel a movie called the Herrshank redemption in the works:( :up:
The idea was in a thread where we were disscussing Hobgoblin after Latino review "confirmed":rolleyes: him and sandman as the villauns for SM-3

Dammit, I can't find that thread.

I wasn't planning on including that in my primary Spider-Man franchise idea (it was a potential idea for the existing franchise, which is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned), but if you can remind me of what the hell I said back then, we can discuss it.

:wolverine

[roach]

Here is my Captain America idea...........
Captain America:the movie
Before America entered WW2 the nazis marched all over Europe. Led by Hitler's protege The Red Skull the Axis powers seemed unstoppable. The scientist who created the Red Skull realizes that the Nazi's are evil and cant be stopped so he defects to the US and shares with them the supersoldier serum. He modifies it so that the serum doesnt give the subject the hideous disfigurement. The US plans on creating a battalion of supersoldiers. The serum is tested and they realise they need a very weak subject. Steve Rogers sees a media reel of the war in Europe and decided to enlist.Rogers is an a 4F and they decline him but he's taken into the supersoldier project. 20 weaklings are given the serum but only Rogers survives.Something in the serum makes it unable to be replicated in anyone else. Rogers goes from being one of a battalion to the only one. During a test showing to military brass a Nazi spy kills the scientist. Rogers kills him after taking a few rounds in the chest. Rogers is transfered to the O.S.S. and becomes a highly effective spysmasher her in the US. He is given the traditional costume and shield. Pearl Harbor happens and America enters the war. Cap is on the front lines. During a mission Cap saves a newsreel team which includes a young photographer named Bucky Barnes. Bucky is injured and Cap gives him a battlefield blood transfusion. Bucky survives and becomes enhanced. The military gives him armor also and makes him Cap's partner. They go to battle the Red Skull ....the warhead launches Bucky dies and cap lands in the drink.
Years later he is awoken to see how far his country has come. He is taken into custody by Shield and reintroduced to Nick Fury. He explains that the Nazis had sleeper agents in America who formed a new terror group Hydra. Hydra does something devious and Cap stops 'em and realizes that the shadowy head of Hydra is the Red Skull. Fun ensues

[Herr Logan]

Here is my Captain America idea...........
Captain America:the movie
Before America entered WW2 the nazis marched all over Europe. Led by Hitler's protege The Red Skull the Axis powers seemed unstoppable. The scientist who created the Red Skull realizes that the Nazi's are evil and cant be stopped so he defects to the US and shares with them the supersoldier serum. He modifies it so that the serum doesnt give the subject the hideous disfigurement. The US plans on creating a battalion of supersoldiers. The serum is tested and they realise they need a very weak subject. Steve Rogers sees a media reel of the war in Europe and decided to enlist.Rogers is an a 4F and they decline him but he's taken into the supersoldier project. 20 weaklings are given the serum but only Rogers survives.Something in the serum makes it unable to be replicated in anyone else. Rogers goes from being one of a battalion to the only one. During a test showing to military brass a Nazi spy kills the scientist. Rogers kills him after taking a few rounds in the chest. Rogers is transfered to the O.S.S. and becomes a highly effective spysmasher her in the US. He is given the traditional costume and shield. Pearl Harbor happens and America enters the war. Cap is on the front lines. During a mission Cap saves a newsreel team which includes a young photographer named Bucky Barnes. Bucky is injured and Cap gives him a battlefield blood transfusion. Bucky survives and becomes enhanced. The military gives him armor also and makes him Cap's partner. They go to battle the Red Skull ....the warhead launches Bucky dies and cap lands in the drink.
Years later he is awoken to see how far his country has come. He is taken into custody by Shield and reintroduced to Nick Fury. He explains that the Nazis had sleeper agents in America who formed a new terror group Hydra. Hydra does something devious and Cap stops 'em and realizes that the shadowy head of Hydra is the Red Skull. Fun ensues

That sounds really cool. :up:
I especially like the idea the way you set up Bucky to be Captain America's sidekick-- how he's physically augmented through a blood transfusion and then officially sanctioned as Cap's partner.

The only thing I'm not too keen on is having the Red Skull be the head of Hydra, or at least not the only one. I personally think they should have Baron Wolfgang von Strucker and/or other classic Hydra commanders or affiliates (like Viper) in there somewhere, too. It would be cool to have von Strucker as a figurehead or a lieutenant, with the Red Skull pulling strings from behind the scenes.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Dammit, I can't find that thread.

I wasn't planning on including that in my primary Spider-Man franchise idea (it was a potential idea for the existing franchise, which is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned), but if you can remind me of what the hell I said back then, we can discuss it.

:wolverine

If i recall correctly in your idea,Norman Osbourne's buissness was in trouble,his competitors were getting ahead of him in the technology race and financialy oscorp was in the red,So he hired Merecenary Jason Macandale to do a spot of industrial espionage and he paid him through numbered accounts,there was no face to face meeting,
I believe also you had Norman give him the prototype Glider for use on his missions but he came up with his weapons and costume himself

[Herr Logan]

If i recall correctly in your idea,Norman Osbourne's buissness was in trouble,his competitors were getting ahead of him in the technology race and financialy oscorp was in the red,So he hired Merecenary Jason Macandale to do a spot of industrial espionage and he paid him through numbered accounts,there was no face to face meeting,
I believe also you had Norman give him the prototype Glider for use on his missions but he came up with his weapons and costume himself

Ah, now I remember! Thanks, Hunter.

This is the kind of thing I would definitely put in an animated series or something like that. Unless I was somehow given 9 or so Spider-Man movies to make.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Thanks Herr, I agree with those "updates" as well and I do have some things to add which I'll get around to later which pertain to how they could have done the above and STILL been true to the twisted HALLOWEEN GOBLIN side of Norman Osborn as well... Look forward to your ideas.
Oh, I'm all about Norman Osborn teaching us young'uns the true meaning of Halloween! There's nothing that says he can't be wearing a ridiculous yet creepy costume that's also sufficiently armored.

Here's an idea I was toying with:
Perhaps the cheating business partner of Adrian Toomes could be Norman Osborn. This would strengthen the plausibility of the both Vulture's flight suit and the Green Goblin's glider, as some of the basic components would be developed by the same person (Toomes). In the comics, Norman Osborn framed his business partner-- Mendell Stromm-- for embezzlement and had him arrested and imprisoned. In the 90's cartoon, Osborn tried to squeeze Toomes out of the company and the Vulture came after him. Why not have both in the movie series, since Osborn possesses the same kind of behavior in two different continuities?
Maybe in the first movie, it is Osborn who betrays Toomes and then as the Vulture, Toomes attempts but doesn't actually succeed in killing Osborn. I'm not sure how I'd work all of that around the bank robberies and fight with Spider-Man, since it's very important to the story that the Vulture make his presence known to the world, disappear and reappear again with the public scared of him and the Daily Bugle demanding pictures of him. This shouldn’t at all take a large portion of the movie to show.

This leaves Norman Osborn a background character in the beginning that is almost killed by a man who flies and has his company raided by a rampaging cyborg all in the same film. Osborn is paranoid of getting a comeuppance for the wrongs he’s committed and of outside attacks on his company. In the second film, I’d keep the Goblin origin and OsCorp politics pretty much the same as they were in the actual movie. Raimi and Co. actually did a good job with a lot of the Goblin aspects. His background of (justifiable) paranoia makes him a bit unstable to begin with, and then he pulls the same crap he did on Toomes with Mendell Stromm, who is in charge of the chemical division of OsCorp (as opposed to the aeronautics division, which was headed by Adrian Toomes). When the military officers who are expecting results from Osborn shorten the deadline for the performance enhancers and make it clear they don’t like him and are prepared to give the funding to his competition, he now has a lot more pressure on him and without Stromm he may not succeed in keeping his government funding. Desperate and arrogant, uses himself as a guinea pig for the performance enhancer, thinking that not only will he keep his funding and make those smug officers eat crow, he’ll become more intelligent than Stromm and Toomes combined and won’t have to rely on such people in the future. Well, we know what happens to Osborn there.

Osborn suffers a psychotic break and develops a schizotypal disorder. He feels haunted by a terrible monster and needs to purge it from his mind. At the same time, he feels that nobody is taking him seriously and giving him the respect he damn well deserves. The military liaisons, the business competition, not even his spineless son. If they were as terrified of him as he was of his own demons, they’d respect him. Oh yes, they would.
So he starts raiding his own equipment to build his new image; something horrific and yet practical.
He digs up one of Toomes’ prototype flight suits (also dark green, but noticeably different from the more advanced suit the Vulture wore, and it doesn’t have wings, as Toomes never intended to mass-market those as part of the suit) for the foundation of his costume, and then he looks for ways to fortify it. He wraps the body trunk in Kevlar cloth (dark purple) and adds special gauntlets that discharge powerful electric blasts (the “sparkle beam” blasters-- one of OsCorp’s most advanced weapons, not even close to being legally available for distribution).
I haven’t decided for sure, but I wanted the finished Goblin Glider to be noticeably modified in appearance from whatever Toomes was developing for Osborn that serves the same purpose and/or be something that only Osborn knew was being crafted based on Toomes’ work. I want it to at least make an attempt to give Osborn a layer of insulation for when the cops start investigating the deaths of several employees at Osborn’s competition and his treacherous board of directors (those come later). In any case, Osborn prepares a turbo-jet/VTOL personal transport unit (complete with weaponry) from the various components available to him.
He needs to have special boots for this thing, because even if the boots magnetically lock into the glider, his ankles could snap if he moves the wrong way. Thus, the boots look basically like shiny, dark purple ski boots. Not only is this just an obvious safeguard against hurting his ankles while flying, but it will make him stagger and hunch over a bit during the occasional scenes where he’s off his glider and moving around on foot (like when he’s pacing around and monologuing at a tied-up Peter at the end of the second film), giving him an even creepier look.
The Goblin’s face mask would either be some kind of advanced memory material that conformed to the face and moved like a second skin (while changing the features drastically, as would film prosthetics), or it would be a full helmet that looks like that one of those really creepy concept pictures included on the DVD… God dammit!! I literally just spent hours trying to find this thing online. Screw it! If one of you people can post it, great, otherwise, go watch the DVD special features or use your imaginations or something! Grrr… I’m gonna let this chunk o’ nonsense stand on its own and continue it later, since I’ve been working on this for two days as it is. Discuss!

By the way, I did find a movie concept pic of the Green Goblin, just not a decent front-view image of the helmet I was thinking about. I’ll post it here, along with a pic of a Green Goblin/Spidey fight in which Gobby uses the sparkle beam.

http://www.toymania.com/columns/spotlight/images/msgoblintitle.jpg

http://www.freecomicbookday.com/contest/046_SPIDERMAN_VS_GREEN_GOBLIN.jpg

:wolverine

[Head>On<Collider]

His name is actually John Proudstar... Proudstar, God dammit!! :mad:

Achem... moving on...

I think I get what you're saying, and welcome to the thread. :up:
I wouldn't personally use John Proudstar in my X-Men movie (for which I will post my pre-constructed outline after others have chance to voice their own ideas as well as comment on the unspeakably depraved genius inherent in what I've already posted), even though I'd be using a the X-Men line-up of which he was a member (minus Thunderbird himself, Sunfire, the Banshee, and Jean Grey, and plus Kitty Pride). I would, however, have a line in it that says something along the lines of "not everyone who has served with the X-Men is still alive today, Kitty," with an immediately following shot of either pictures or more subtle-yet recognizable mementos of Thunderbird and Marvel Girl/Phoenix.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and draw a connection between what you've said here to what I've been saying about how a talented, imaginative and dedicated production team could bring almost any important aspect of a classic superhero story to the screen in an impressive way, despite the limited vision displayed by makers of the current products out there and also the apologists who defend such shortcomings. Almost nobody on this site seems to believe that. The thing to remember is that you can't properly assess a superhero movie adaptation if you're not truly looking at it as such. Using bull***** excuses like "it's not realistic" are completely devoid of merit, but a more complex question is "is it believable?" That measurement of believability has to be from a certain general perspective. Most of these stories are in large portion some mixture of science fiction and fantasy, and any claim to the contrary is invalid. The main "realism" should concern psychological and sociological aspects, not so much science and fashion sense. And one of the most important things to remember is that there is no such thing as "there being no such thing as a person with this or that characteristic." People are incredibly diverse, or at least the interesting ones are. Nobody can tell me that it's unrealistic for an intelligent young man can't invent amazing devices with which to swing around the city and crack smart-ass jokes during potentially fatal confrontations with immensely dangeorus sociopaths. How would anyone have the authority to say that? Anyone who says such a thing is proving themselves either a liar or shamefully short-sighted, and there really is no possible way they could be correct in their statement. Either you can relate to these characters or you can't. My father couldn't relate to any superhero movie on almost any level, even thought he possesses characteristics of many of the heroes and many of the villains. Am I supposed to take that as a sign that the "general audience" couldn't relate to the same material? Anecdotal evidence, even on the scale provided by this and other similar websites, is not valid proof of anything. The only thing anecdotal evidence is good for is disproving absolute statements, and it does that every single time. Just because jaded yet easily manipulated teenagers and twenty-somethings say that there's no way that a skintight costume and cowl couldn't look good on a character like Wolverine, that doesn't make it remotely true. That reflects only on the speaker, not the verity of the subject matter. There are any number of statements about any number of aspects of these movies that are just plain wrong and are only made out of narrow-mindedness and lack of imagination. And people have the audacity to call the likes of us "negative"?

I have no idea if that rant had anything to do with what you said earlier, HOC. It's just what it made me think of, starting with your first few paragraphs.

:wolverineJohn Proudstar, check! **writes notes**
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for making characters relatable and by your highlighted quote I can see that you agree that the only thing that really deserves the realism defense it emotional, mental issues. To me, it would be about establishing who the person is, where he/ she came from, and how her or she acts under such extreme situations that would make it all comic book worthy in the first place. Whoever we deal with, we’re most likely dealing with someone with human attributes.... I mean last I checked almost all of them speak English, so there’s gotta be some kind of common ground between them and the audience, right? So aside from whatever it would be that hold such common ground, there really doesn’t need to be that big of a deal to be realistic to the kind of level where they would go and hack up everything to the point that he/ she is rewritten altogether into a completely different person.

Take for example Taxi Driver. The whole movie leads you the audience to see Rob DeNiro’s role as a sociopathic, psychopathic stalker type, which is he is pretty much, however, at the end you see that maybe he was one as far as everybody else goes, but to the girl’s father, parents, and especially the girl herself, he was a hero. It’s a movie about a hero altogether, and I think there are some real juicy elements in that movie for any comic book film to take after.

That's what I say anyway... :D

[Hunter Rider]

This is one of the designs i think you were looking for,the DVD wouldnt let me photo cap the other design:mad: i also found another design from 2000 that ive never seen before that i thought might be of interest


http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/458/conceptgoblin3oq.jpg


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6214/gg2a0og.jpg

[roach]

That sounds really cool. :up:
I especially like the idea the way you set up Bucky to be Captain America's sidekick-- how he's physically augmented through a blood transfusion and then officially sanctioned as Cap's partner.

The only thing I'm not too keen on is having the Red Skull be the head of Hydra, or at least not the only one. I personally think they should have Baron Wolfgang von Strucker and/or other classic Hydra commanders or affiliates (like Viper) in there somewhere, too. It would be cool to have von Strucker as a figurehead or a lieutenant, with the Red Skull pulling strings from behind the scenes.

:wolverine

that was my quick fast in a hurry idea for the movie. Strucker would be a Lt.
I just wanted to have a better explaination for why Captain America took a minor into battle.Recently it was retconned that Bucky was 19 but it would still fit seeing as Cap is able to do all these power stunts at least the guy watching his back should be on the same level.

[Herr Logan]

John Proudstar, check! **writes notes**
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for making characters relatable and by your highlighted quote I can see that you agree that the only thing that really deserves the realism defense it emotional, mental issues. To me, it would be about establishing who the person is, where he/ she came from, and how her or she acts under such extreme situations that would make it all comic book worthy in the first place. Whoever we deal with, we’re most likely dealing with someone with human attributes.... I mean last I checked almost all of them speak English, so there’s gotta be some kind of common ground between them and the audience, right? So aside from whatever it would be that hold such common ground, there really doesn’t need to be that big of a deal to be realistic to the kind of level where they would go and hack up everything to the point that he/ she is rewritten altogether into a completely different person.

Take for example Taxi Driver. The whole movie leads you the audience to see Rob DeNiro’s role as a sociopathic, psychopathic stalker type, which is he is pretty much, however, at the end you see that maybe he was one as far as everybody else goes, but to the girl’s father, parents, and especially the girl herself, he was a hero. It’s a movie about a hero altogether, and I think there are some real juicy elements in that movie for any comic book film to take after.

That's what I say anyway... :D

Yeah, I definitely agree about the behavioral realism thing, and like I said, demanding behavioral realism doesn't in any way mena that any person or group of people could validly deny that an outlandish or unique behavior exhibited by a character isn't realistic. When Spider-Man does something you could definitely see or have seen real people do, that's a realistic and relatable portrayal. However, even though his wise-cracking in the middle of an extremely dangerous battle may or may not be relatable to the majority of the people watching, there is absolutely no viable basis for saying it isn't realistic. Peter Parker is interesting to me because he behaves (which technically means in thought as well as in act) in many ways like I do. I can't say that resonates with the majority of other people, because I'm pretty different from most people in a lot of ways, but it does appeal to me. As for the things Peter thinks and does that I can't relate to, that's no reason to label it "unmarketable." Reading and watching fiction automatically guarantees you'll most likely see something different from your own experience, and when it comes to fiction that is specifically and outright presented as stories about heroes, then it's stupid to the point of immorallity to expect the characters to be stripped of anything that makes them unique. Heroes are heroes because they're different in a good and/or notable way. Anyone who thinks Spider-Man should be stripped of his humor and outward calmness during battle is an idiot. That doesn't apply to people who were content with the changes in the movie, just to the people who actually believe that's a better alternative. Many people would consider me overly opinionated and unreasonably judgemental of other people's opinions and preferences for saying that. They're wrong. We're not talking about an undefined blank slate, we're talking about a 43 year-old character (in our years, not comic book years) whose behaviors are well defined and widely known. Either he jokes a lot, or he's not Spider-Man, period. If it's a new character that's still being formulated, then opinions by themselves carry weight. That's not the case with any of the main Marvel properties. With DC characters like the Batman, there's a lot more leeway, since he's the character out of all famous superheroes that has been through the most drastic changes throughout the years. Yes, even more drastic than the Hulk.

Anyway, before I rant even farther off-point, I'll just say that I do approve of and encourage contextual and practical changes meant to heighten the "realism" factor in adaptation movies, but only if they do not change the important aspects of the characters or mythos, and only if it has either a neutral or beneficial effect on the story (i.e. making Doc Ock's tentacles plug into his spinal column from the very beginning and having the Goblin formula specifically be a military-ordered human performance enhancer = good change; organic webshooters and sappy life-long obsession with MJ and no sense of humor = horrible change).

"Taxi Driver" was damn depressing. What character were you thinking of in a superhero movie that would be seen in the same way DeNiro's character was in that movie?

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

This is one of the designs i think you were looking for,the DVD wouldnt let me photo cap the other design:mad: i also found another design from 2000 that ive never seen before that i thought might be of interest


http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/458/conceptgoblin3oq.jpg


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6214/gg2a0og.jpg

Ah, thanks, Hunter. :up:
Neither of those is the one I was thinking of, because it's pretty much front and side view shots of the mask/helmet, but these are cool frames of reference, too.

I've seen the first one before. Unfortunately, it doesn't offer a good view of the mask. My ideal suit design would be a lot simpler and less robotic looking. The suit wouldn't do a whole hell of a lot except provide basic protection from impact trauma and gunfire. Also to scare people, of course. I definitely want it to look like Kevlar/Nomex type stuff, but the less technical-looking, the better. No need for bolts and exposed circuits.

That second one is awesome, and I don't believe I've seen it before. It's pretty much the classic Goblin look, which is what I'd be going for. The windsock/skullcap on that thing looks great in the picture, but I was thinking of having that part be part of the helmet, similar to how it was in the movie and in the first pic below (except I'd want it completely smooth and not all machine-like). The mask concept photos I've been looking for had that feature as well. And I would definitely want that part to be deep dark purple like many other parts of the suit, not a green shade that somehow looks purple in a certain light (like the one in the actual movie did).
I guess the main overall problem I had with the movie mask is that it was so angular in so many places. I mean, it was even more angular than Willem Dafoe's emaciated mug! I'd be fine with the mask covering up the person's face completely as long as it looked good both in and of itself and in the context of the mythos. It should be something you'd say is silly to wear when not at a costume party, but very frightening when in the context of an attack.

The mask should change the wearer's voice, too. I think Willem Dafoe was a wonderful choice for Norman Osborn (just as Alfred Molina was a wonderful choice for Dr. Octopus), and in this imaginitive context, I'd cast him in my own ideal movie series (a few years younger, though... he looked okay in "Spider-Man" but he was a damn skeleton in "Spider-Man 2"), but I find it ridiculous that Spider-Man wouldn't notice how similar the two characters sounded. Yes, Willem put a little bit of effort into making the two personas sound different, but it was still too close. Even considering that Spider-Man in my ideal series wouldn't have much if any real contact with Norman Osborn before he meets the Green Goblin (he'll have several personal encounters with him in the course of film 3 and 4, especially considering Peter reluctantly agrees to move in with Harry at the end of movie 2), it would be foolish even by a madman's standards to choose not to use a voice modifier when it's clearly within his means to obtain and install one into his fright mask. Yes, Osborn is extremely arrogant, but I want him to take at least some basic precautions in maintaining his double life.

Anyone else have thoughts on all this?

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

that was my quick fast in a hurry idea for the movie. Strucker would be a Lt.
I just wanted to have a better explaination for why Captain America took a minor into battle.Recently it was retconned that Bucky was 19 but it would still fit seeing as Cap is able to do all these power stunts at least the guy watching his back should be on the same level.

Yeah, I also think there should be a better reason for Cap to take a minor into those kinds of missions. I think it's a good idea to have Bucky enhanced by Cap's blood, but I wouldn't want him to be on the same level as Cap in terms of physical enhancement. Your idea for a blood transfusion is the perfect way to keep Steve Rogers the sole tested person to respond successfully to the Super Soldier formula but still get a less powerful but adequately enhanced side-kick. Maybe Bucky could be as physically adept as Daredevil (minus the super-senses), which is still pretty damn formidable, even if he's not at the exactly same level of fitness Cap is. That still leaves him ahead of pretty much any other soldier. Anyway, that's just my preference.

In what era would you have Captain America thaw out? I'm guessing the ideal timeframe would anywhere between the 1960's and now.

:wolverine

[roach]

Yeah, I also think there should be a better reason for Cap to take a minor into those kinds of missions. I think it's a good idea to have Bucky enhanced by Cap's blood, but I wouldn't want him to be on the same level as Cap in terms of physical enhancement. Your idea for a blood transfusion is the perfect way to keep Steve Rogers the sole tested person to respond successfully to the Super Soldier formula but still get a less powerful but adequately enhanced side-kick. Maybe Bucky could be as physically adept as Daredevil (minus the super-senses), which is still pretty damn formidable, even if he's not at the exactly same level of fitness Cap is. That still leaves him ahead of pretty much any other soldier. Anyway, that's just my preference.

In what era would you have Captain America thaw out? I'm guessing the ideal timeframe would anywhere between the 1960's and now.

:wolverine

I just thought it was funny that Cap would be running and doing these impossible flips and jumps and his sidekick was right there with him.

Yeah I'd thaw him out now. Knowing this film won't be connected to the other Marvel films I'd act as if this was the only one. No Avengers or a mention.

[Abaddon]

I think it sucks that they had to center so much on MJ,and turn Pete into a lovesick loser.He practically stalks the girl in the first movie.Then they have to make her his motivation for getting money.Of course he wanted to help his aunt and uncle out,but he also wanted to impress MJ by buying a car.Then they make the wrestling owner cheat Pete out of some money,so he can be somewhat justified in not stopping the robber.




In the comics Pete was arrogant.and selfish when he got his powers.Not some whipped pansy,****ting out the salt of the earth.:rolleyes:

[Herr Logan]

I think it sucks that they had to center so much on MJ,and turn Pete into a lovesick loser.He practically stalks the girl in the first movie.Then they have to make her his motivation for getting money.Of course he wanted to help his aunt and uncle out,but he also wanted to impress MJ by buying a car.Then they make the wrestling owner cheat Pete out of some money,so he can be somewhat justified in not stopping the robber.

In the comics Pete was arrogant.and selfish when he got his powers.Not some whipped pansy,****ting out the salt of the earth.:rolleyes:

I agree with all of this. It really is a shame that instead of using material that already lent itself to great storytelling and just tightening it up a bit (since choosing the best content and modifying the pacing are really the only major factors in a decent adaptation from a comic series to a movie franchise), they felt the need to water it down in order to have something they could take full credit for.

I think I heard a while ago that the more the screenplay deviates from the source material, the more the writers get paid or something along those lines. Feh! If I were in charge of Marvel Films, I'd give Stan Lee and Steve Ditko (in whatever cave he's hiding himself) and every other major contributor to the early stories (Ditko wasn't just the artist, he was the plotter) their fair cut of the money and have a small group of fans (including myself) and editors gather what was already present in the comics and some cartoons (since animated series like the one in the 90's tended to tie things together in a smaller universe, which is what we'd want for a movie franchise, within reason) and make small alteratons where it would benefit the story. No need to hire hacks like Koepp and those Godawful "Smallville" writers to piss all over Spider-Man history. The content of the early Spidey comics already lends itself to cinematic presentation more so than most other superhero franchises. No need to fix what ain't broken, especially under the pretense that you're actually creating something.

I've written up a general outline of what I'd want the first movie to be early in the thread, and several others have posted their own ideas for not only a Spider-Man movie franchise but others as well, so if you have any comments on any of that or any ideas of your own you want to post, Abaddon, feel free. :up:

:wolverine

[SoulManX]

I think it sucks that they had to center so much on MJ,and turn Pete into a lovesick loser.He practically stalks the girl in the first movie.Then they have to make her his motivation for getting money.Of course he wanted to help his aunt and uncle out,but he also wanted to impress MJ by buying a car.Then they make the wrestling owner cheat Pete out of some money,so he can be somewhat justified in not stopping the robber.




In the comics Pete was arrogant.and selfish when he got his powers.Not some whipped pansy,****ting out the salt of the earth.:rolleyes:

So True...Remember when Spider-Man wanted to join the F4 to get paid.

[SoulManX]

I agree with all of this. It really is a shame that instead of using material that already lent itself to great storytelling and just tightening it up a bit (since choosing the best content and modifying the pacing are really the only major factors in a decent adaptation from a comic series to a movie franchise), they felt the need to water it down in order to have something they could take full credit for.

I think I heard a while ago that the more the screenplay deviates from the source material, the more the writers get paid or something along those lines. Feh! If I were in charge of Marvel Films, I'd give Stan Lee and Steve Ditko (in whatever cave he's hiding himself) and every other major contributor to the early stories (Ditko wasn't just the artist, he was the plotter) their fair cut of the money and have a small group of fans (including myself) and editors gather what was already present in the comics and some cartoons (since animated series like the one in the 90's tended to tie things together in a smaller universe, which is what we'd want for a movie franchise, within reason) and make small alteratons where it would benefit the story. No need to hire hacks like Koepp and those Godawful "Smallville" writers to piss all over Spider-Man history. The content of the early Spidey comics already lends itself to cinematic presentation more so than most other superhero franchises. No need to fix what ain't broken, especially under the pretense that you're actually creating something.

I've written up a general outline of what I'd want the first movie to be early in the thread, and several others have posted their own ideas for not only a Spider-Man movie franchise but others as well, so if you have any comments on any of that or any ideas of your own you want to post, Abaddon, feel free. :up:

:wolverine

:wolverineKoepp is not too bad just need someone over him...Miller and Gough should be burned at the stake. But you hit it on the head....the 90's cartoons got it right.

[SoulManX]

The main problem is the studio head are *******s. They want this to be their project yet throw some **** on the screen and say "Here is your movie fan people." Marvel DC Dark Horse etc. are to blame for letting these bastard rape their work. I get tired of people selling out for a buck and then when the fan hate it, then the comic companies complain. I also blame Wizard for this lick studio ass hype machine.


Sorry for the rant:(

[Herr Logan]

The main problem is the studio head are *******s. They want this to be their project yet throw some **** on the screen and say "Here is your movie fan people." Marvel DC Dark Horse etc. are to blame for letting these bastard rape their work. I get tired of people selling out for a buck and then when the fan hate it, then the comic companies complain. I also blame Wizard for this lick studio ass hype machine.


Sorry for the rant:(

Don't be sorry. Ranting against the studios and the comic company sellouts is protected under the rules of this thread. :)

:wolverine

[Langoth]

Hm... Your all a bunch of nutty fanboys!!! :D

Ah I'm just kiddin'

I would have posted by now, or at least something significant, if I could motivate myself, but I've had a major brain-far on the comics-movie issues lately. -.-

[Mr Sensitive]

Nice thread.

It seems the cries "Go Halle" and "Good job, Tim" will not show up here.

Oh, I noticed some fresh air coming from the opened window.

[zanos]

I think it sucks that they had to center so much on MJ,and turn Pete into a lovesick loser.He practically stalks the girl in the first movie.Then they have to make her his motivation for getting money.Of course he wanted to help his aunt and uncle out,but he also wanted to impress MJ by buying a car.Then they make the wrestling owner cheat Pete out of some money,so he can be somewhat justified in not stopping the robber.




In the comics Pete was arrogant.and selfish when he got his powers.Not some whipped pansy,****ting out the salt of the earth.:rolleyes:


It's weird to see someone else mention how Raimi botched up the robbery scene which led to uncle ben's death because I don't ever recall anyone mentioning this but myself although not to discount that someone may have said it and I just didn't see it. The reason why Peter feels a sense of responsibility to help everyone and to keep being Spider-man is out of the tremendous guilt he felt when he became too self centered to help use his powers when he could have. Instead he used them simply to make money. Hence why the saying "with great power must come great responsiblity" is so important to him. In the film this line is just kind of thrown in our faces with no rhym or reason just because Peter had beaten up someone at school? This further shows a complete lack of understanding of the character and the story of Spider-man. So on top of getting his personality all wrong even his motivations for becoming Spider-man has now been compromised by further bad writing.


Btw would we ever need to demand more when we have masterpieces like the Fantastic Four?! Avi and the studio have clearly outdone themselves this time.

[SoulManX]

First off let's take Marvel shall we. Stan Lee is a great story teller it suits him. But him liking the Spider-Man movies and X-Men movies is just ****ing nuts. They have thrown everything that is good about them and replaced them with awful shells of the heroes we love. Ari is the worst at Marvel next to Joe Q the **** will hit the fan at Marvel Studios soon. It happen to DC comics and WB...

[SoulManX]

It's weird to see someone else mention how Raimi botched up the robbery scene which led to uncle ben's death because I don't ever recall anyone mentioning this but myself although not to discount that someone may have said it and I just didn't see it. The reason why Peter feels a sense of responsibility to help everyone and to keep being Spider-man is out of the tremendous guilt he felt when he became too self centered to help use his powers when he could have. Instead he used them simply to make money. Hence why the saying "with great power must come great responsiblity" is so important to him. In the film this line is just kind of thrown in our faces with no rhym or reason just because Peter had beaten up someone at school? This further shows a complete lack of understanding of the character and the story of Spider-man. So on top of getting his personality all wrong even his motivations for becoming Spider-man has now been compromised by further bad writing.


Btw would we ever need to demand more when we have masterpieces like the Fantastic Four?! Avi and the studio have clearly outdone themselves this time.

My friend you hit on the head...god F4 needs a redo so bad it hurts.

[Herr Logan]

Nice thread.

It seems the cries "Go Halle" and "Good job, Tim" will not show up here.

Oh, I noticed some fresh air coming from the opened window.

Welcome to the Haven, Mr Sensitive.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

It's weird to see someone else mention how Raimi botched up the robbery scene which led to uncle ben's death because I don't ever recall anyone mentioning this but myself although not to discount that someone may have said it and I just didn't see it. The reason why Peter feels a sense of responsibility to help everyone and to keep being Spider-man is out of the tremendous guilt he felt when he became too self centered to help use his powers when he could have. Instead he used them simply to make money. Hence why the saying "with great power must come great responsiblity" is so important to him. In the film this line is just kind of thrown in our faces with no rhym or reason just because Peter had beaten up someone at school? This further shows a complete lack of understanding of the character and the story of Spider-man. So on top of getting his personality all wrong even his motivations for becoming Spider-man has now been compromised by further bad writing.


Btw would we ever need to demand more when we have masterpieces like the Fantastic Four?! Avi and the studio have clearly outdone themselves this time.

I've before mentioned how the robbery that led up to Ben's death was screwed up, but I think which ever post in which I went into detail on that didn't get saved and didn't get re-posted here. Anyway, that's one of the deviations from the comics books that seems like a very deliberate attempt to pad the screenwriter's resume and distance the project from the material on which it was based.

Here's something related to this topic I've been thinking about:
In the comics, not only did Peter have absolutely no logical reason for not stopping the robber backstage, but he didn't have a fight with Uncle Ben before the murder. "Amazing Fantasy" #15 was written as a throw-away final issue that was never expected to spawn one of the most popular superhero series ever. It was sparse, not very in-depth when it came to interaction between characters. Some people might think that by adding a fight with Uncle Ben and a grudge against a studio employee somehow adds depth to the story. It doesn't. It doesn't need to. In "Amazing Fantasy" #15, Peter turned all of his concern toward not only himself but his aunt and uncle. When he set out to earn money in show business, he fully intended to look after his own. He wasn't trying to ditance himself from his aunt and uncle, but he didn't see it as a problem if somebody outside his own family got robbed, so he didn't do anything to help. The various philosophies behind "with great power comes great responsibility" include utilitarianism and the categorical imperative. These philosophies combined basically mean two things: 1) that one should strive to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, in the long run, for the majority of people; 2) one should always act as in such a way that the maxim of their action was a strict law by which everyone must abide. It would have cost Spider-Man nothing to just grab the fleeing robber, but it would have spared the studio treasurer (or whatever) the consequences of losing that money. Spider-Man should act as if it was a world-wide law to stop fleeing thieves when one has the chance. Basically, because he was seemingly considerate of his family but inconsiderate of the rest of the world, and he learned that if he had acted as if it were his own uncle that had been robbed, the thief wouldn't have made it to the elevator and would not be a threat to anyone else for a while. This lesson is far more profound and all-inclusive than the one learned in the movie "Spider-Man," which was more along the lines of "don't act according to one's vengeful thoughts." That's far more simplistic and watered-down. It's not even like the philosophical connotations of the true Spider-Man origin have to be explained to the audience. Many people will see most or all of what's there, and many will just understand the simplicity of the credo. Either way, the original version works better with the character than the movie's version. Then again, the movies had a completely different character in it (a boring, superficially intelligent, unfunny little twit), so maybe that's a moot point.

:wolverine

[roach]

First off let's take Marvel shall we. Stan Lee is a great story teller it suits him. But him liking the Spider-Man movies and X-Men movies is just ****ing nuts. They have thrown everything that is good about them and replaced them with awful shells of the heroes we love. Ari is the worst at Marvel next to Joe Q the **** will hit the fan at Marvel Studios soon. It happen to DC comics and WB...


I realize that the rules are against this sort of thing but if Stan Lee liked the movies then that is on him. Demanding more is all fine and dandy but projecting your point of views on other people you dont know(like Stan Lee) is just wrong.

[Herr Logan]

First off let's take Marvel shall we. Stan Lee is a great story teller it suits him. But him liking the Spider-Man movies and X-Men movies is just ****ing nuts. They have thrown everything that is good about them and replaced them with awful shells of the heroes we love. Ari is the worst at Marvel next to Joe Q the **** will hit the fan at Marvel Studios soon. It happen to DC comics and WB...

Stan may not actually care if his stuff gets watered down. He has said that he doesn't mind when new writers take over his stuff and put their own stamp on them. But that's no more meaningful than any other opinion he states publicly. Stan is a smooth operator. He vouched for all these movies while at the same time suing Marvel for 10% of all the profits on the properties he created. He's not going to tell how he really feels. He's going to say what he's supposed to say, and if there's a bone to pick with Marvel or Marvel Films, he'll pick it behind the scenes while still smiling in public.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

My friend you hit on the head...god F4 needs a redo so bad it hurts.

I got some thoughts on that. So does Sardauker. If you have your own, feel free to mention them. My own idea is basically to take a big chunk from the existing movie and cut out everything that sucks. This includes a large part of Reed's and Sue's personalities and all of DDINO.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I realize that the rules are against this sort of thing but if Stan Lee liked the movies then that is on him. Demanding more is all fine and dandy but projecting your point of views on other people you dont know(like Stan Lee) is just wrong.

You've acknowledged that you know the rules. Don't make me tap the sign (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6248395&postcount=1).

If you want to argue a criticism made against a product or a person who isn't a contributor to this thread, you'd better substitute a different criticism. Non-negotiable.

:wolverine

[Boom]

SUPERHERO/SUPERVILLAIN COSTUME IDEAS

One thing I've always gotten a kick out of is the way the costumes of the heroes and villains are portrayed on the big screen. Sometimes I've very impressed and satisfied (Spider-Man), and sometimes I'm appauled ("Catwoman"). Personally, I feel any costume can be translated from page to film convincingly. You just have to be creative. Here are a few of my thoughts, with more to come.

SPIDER-MAN:
As I said above, I love this suit. There are only a few elements I'd change, and these are them:
-Bigger lenses, with a more circular look.
-Lenses should be somewhat reflective.
-A much richer blue color. In the movies, the blue came across as a blue-gray most of the time. I'd get a much more vibrant tone.
-Make the raised webbing black.
-Use the classic front/spider emblems.

BATMAN:
-Batman would first put on a protective bodysuit. It would be made of an advanced memory alloy, that takes the shape of the wearer. Like the Begins suit, it would be fire-proof, knife-proof, and can deflect any bullets that are not fired directly on. Because this suit goes under another suit, the actor wouldn't have to wear this suit all the time, since it'd be hidden from view. We'd see him put it on, and then we assume that he's wearing it underneath. This would elimate the flexibility/mobility issues seen in the past films.
-The suit that goes over the body armor would be a thin material. I'd probably end up using the same material that is used for army jackets. This suit would be seamless, and would be very dark gray.
-The boots and gloves would be very simple, and made of nonreflective leather. The designs would be very similar to Jim Lee's. The scallops of the gloves would be made of metal, and they would be attached to a metal plate attached to the inside of each glove (We'd probably never see this though). The boots and gloves would be black.
-The cowl would be very tight-fitting, and would also be made of a non-reflective leather. The design of the cowl would follow Jim Lee's very closely. However, the ears would be longer (No longer than Keaton's). The cowl would also have built-in lenses, which would provide eye protection, as well as night/infrared vision. These lenses would be white, and somewhat reflective. The cowl would be thin enough so that the actor could simply pull the cowl back and let it fall down his back, instead of always having to take it off. The cowl itself would be all black.
-The cape would probably be a light weight material, and the texture would be the same as that of leather. The cape would be black, and would join together at the collar bone, so that the cape could hang over Batman's body like it does in the comics. The cape would be the same length as the cape in Batman Begins. It would also have definite scallops.
-The belt would be an extremely dark yellow, and would be made of of the same material as the pouched belts used in the military. It would have batarangs, small gas bombs, a small flashlight, lock picks, etc etc. And like the Begins belt, there would be a magnetic piece near the back of the belt where the grapple gun would be attached.
-The trunks would serve as a harness. The trunks would have to straps on the side so that the trunks can be attached to the belt. This way, when Batman used the grapple gun to ascend/descend from the sky, and attached the gun to his belt, the belt will stay firmly in place. The harness would be black.
-The emblem on the chest would be made of a thin metal plate, and would be black. This metal plate would only be large enough so that it covers most of the upper chest.

[Herr Logan]

SUPERHERO/SUPERVILLAIN COSTUME IDEAS

One thing I've always gotten a kick out of is the way the costumes of the heroes and villains are portrayed on the big screen. Sometimes I've very impressed and satisfied (Spider-Man), and sometimes I'm appauled ("Catwoman"). Personally, I feel any costume can be translated from page to film convincingly. You just have to be creative. Here are a few of my thoughts, with more to come.

SPIDER-MAN:
As I said above, I love this suit. There are only a few elements I'd change, and these are them:
-Bigger lenses, with a more circular look.
-Lenses should be somewhat reflective.
-A much richer blue color. In the movies, the blue came across as a blue-gray most of the time. I'd get a much more vibrant tone.
-Make the raised webbing black.
-Use the classic front/spider emblems.
Welcome to the Haven, General Boom. :up:

I have some thoughts on both of your lists, and please don't take any disagreements as criticisms. This thread is supposed to be a free exchange of thoughts and ideas.

I like everything on your Spidey suit list.
I'm not sure what size you're thinking when you say you want bigger lenses. I personally wouldn't want them to be too big, but I think it would look better with more rounded outlines instead of jagged wedges, and also if they were mirrored instead of cloudy-looking.
I thought that the raised webbing in the second movie (which I watched again today for reference on Dr. Octopus) actually was black, but it was very shiny, so it may not have seemed like it. If they need to have the webbing raised, it should be less shiny.

My reason for agreeing with your preference for the classic spider symbol is actually a purely very selfish one-- I'm very arachnophobic, so the less the image resembles a real spider, the better. :0
BATMAN:
-Batman would first put on a protective bodysuit. It would be made of an advanced memory alloy, that takes the shape of the wearer. Like the Begins suit, it would be fire-proof, knife-proof, and can deflect any bullets that are not fired directly on. Because this suit goes under another suit, the actor wouldn't have to wear this suit all the time, since it'd be hidden from view. We'd see him put it on, and then we assume that he's wearing it underneath. This would elimate the flexibility/mobility issues seen in the past films.
Yes, exactly! It's what I've been saying all along, how the armor can be established without weighing down the actor, both by describing the suit and by having a scene where the top layer is laid upon the harder armor layer and/or having the top layer damaged in battle, revealing a different material beneath. They actually did something akin to this in "Batman Begins," as the suit they pulled out of the drawer in the basement of Wayne Tech was obviously not what Bale actually wore. They just didn't use the right suit models.
-The suit that goes over the body armor would be a thin material. I'd probably end up using the same material that is used for army jackets. This suit would be seamless, and would be very dark gray.
-The boots and gloves would be very simple, and made of nonreflective leather. The designs would be very similar to Jim Lee's. The scallops of the gloves would be made of metal, and they would be attached to a metal plate attached to the inside of each glove (We'd probably never see this though). The boots and gloves would be black.
-The cowl would be very tight-fitting, and would also be made of a non-reflective leather. The design of the cowl would follow Jim Lee's very closely. However, the ears would be longer (No longer than Keaton's). The cowl would also have built-in lenses, which would provide eye protection, as well as night/infrared vision. These lenses would be white, and somewhat reflective. The cowl would be thin enough so that the actor could simply pull the cowl back and let it fall down his back, instead of always having to take it off. The cowl itself would be all black.
-The cape would probably be a light weight material, and the texture would be the same as that of leather. The cape would be black, and would join together at the collar bone, so that the cape could hang over Batman's body like it does in the comics. The cape would be the same length as the cape in Batman Begins. It would also have definite scallops.
What are army jackets made of? In any case, I'd want the top layer of the Batsuit to be formfitting and conducive to a generally organic look to the body. That's probably what you had in mind as well.

I personally wouldn't choose leather as the material for the black costume pieces. At least, I wouldn't have it be leather in the story, even if that's what they use in the production of the film. I'd want it to be representative of a material as durable as Kevlar.

I really like the cowl in "Batman Returns," so I don't know if that's what you were envisioning with your idea (but without any shininess and with mirrored lenses), but I think it would be possible to make a stretchable cowl that can be pulled over the head and maintain something close to that shape.

By the way, anything I don't address specifically is just something I agree with and to which I don't have anythinf to add at the moment.
-The belt would be an extremely dark yellow, and would be made of of the same material as the pouched belts used in the military. It would have batarangs, small gas bombs, a small flashlight, lock picks, etc etc. And like the Begins belt, there would be a magnetic piece near the back of the belt where the grapple gun would be attached.
Have you ever seen "Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight"? Though I can't seem to find it, I own that book, and it gives diagrams and details of Batman's equipment, specifically one of the more high-tech utility belts he's worn. I like the more high-tech belt because it can hold not only an awesome amount of micro-weaponry, but crime scene equipment as well. I really want to see the detective aspect played up, as well as the "I'm prepared for anything" aspect. I wouldn't want the hidden gadgetry to get out of hand, like it did in "Batman Forever," but I don't think it would be too over-the-top to show him producing several fold-up batarangs, gas pellets, a first aid kit, a set of zip-lock bags and a fingerprint kit, an anti-toxin ejector and a gas mask from his belt. I think if they really made the effort to have the props actually fit into and eject/pull out of the compartments, this would work. The trick is to not have him rely on gadgets and props too much, but to have the right tool for the job when it comes to tending to a wounded person, surveying a crime scene before the cops arrive, facing a gas attack and the other appropriate situations.

-The trunks would serve as a harness. The trunks would have to straps on the side so that the trunks can be attached to the belt. This way, when Batman used the grapple gun to ascend/descend from the sky, and attached the gun to his belt, the belt will stay firmly in place. The harness would be black.
I think it's obvious that I love this idea. ;)
-The emblem on the chest would be made of a thin metal plate, and would be black. This metal plate would only be large enough so that it covers most of the upper chest.

Thanks for posting, Boom. Again, I love your ideas and look forward to more. I'm particularly interested in what you think about a faithful Green Goblin costume. I posted my thoughts on that earlier, but I didn't get into all of it (mainly a few of his weapons and his carrying bag). Feel free to address that issue, or anything else that comes to mind. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Apparently our friend Boom's birthday was July 26, which just passed us by mere hours ago. Happy Birthday, Boom!
How old are you?


Currently, it is July 27th, which is our friend Doc Ock's birthday. He's 25. Happy Birthday, you dirty old man! :)

:wolverine

[roach]

You've acknowledged that you know the rules. Don't make me tap the sign (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6248395&postcount=1).

If you want to argue a criticism made against a product or a person who isn't a contributor to this thread, you'd better substitute a different criticism. Non-negotiable.

:wolverine

I apologize but that is a pet peeve of mine when people put words or thoughts into other peoples mouths or minds that they dont know. I know you dislike the Spider-man films but it would be like me saying you only hate them because it maintains your internet image. I dont know you so why would I make a statement like that. Again I am sorry......

[roach]

anyhow My X-men....
.......The team would have been Cyclops,Jean, Iceman,Beast and Angel. They would have gone to fight Magneto and get captured. Then Professor X would travel the world to create a new team...Storm, Wolverine, Sunfire, Banshee, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Thunderbird. Thunderbird would die the X-men would be saved. The old team decides to leave as Cyclops leads the new one.
Costumes: While I like the black leather look for the movies I would move the color coordination of the suits to blue and yellow(the unofficial X-colors). The suits would look more like the basic X-uniforms that they use for training now. Then add the modifications for each character....tiger stripes for Wolverine, Cape and tiara for Storm, modified boots and cloves for Nightcrawler...ect ect ect......
Set up movie 2 for the sentinels and movie three for Phoenix

[Herr Logan]

I apologize but that is a pet peeve of mine when people put words or thoughts into other peoples mouths or minds that they dont know. I know you dislike the Spider-man films but it would be like me saying you only hate them because it maintains your internet image. I dont know you so why would I make a statement like that. Again I am sorry......

To be fair, Stan Lee has endorsed those movies in every way possible, and has outright said in several venues that he likes these movies. Like I said, this doesn't mean he really likes them (although I doubt there aren't many aspects he does like), but it does mean he's given the public to believe he does. BlackHardKnight only wrote one sentence pertaining to Stan Lee and technically he what he said wasn't strictly attributing a position to Stan (although he has unquestionably taken that position, officially, anyway). Even if Stan hadn't thoroughly endorsed these movies and even gone so far as to claim that the movie versions (at least of Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, I don't know about the X-Men) were his favorite incarnations of the characters, then BHK's statement could be a hypocthetical and/or preemptive "if it turned out that he likes these movies, that's crazy."

Believe me, I hate it when people attribute erroneous opinions and emotions onto me, and I don't tolerate it. The truth is, it's not even okay for someone to say that I overall hate or even dislike any of these particular movies. I never said that. People-- especially people of limited analytical capacity-- like to simplify my position into something they can understand, sum up quickly and throw back in my face out of cowardly insecurity, but the fact remains that whenever I comment on these movies, I make specific or generally descriptive statements as to what was wrong with them. I don't make blanket, simplistic statements such as "these movies suck" or "I don't like them." The simplest type of statement that I make is something along the lines of "compared to what these movies could have been if their potential had been tapped, they are terrible." That's context-specific, and to many people it's self-explanatory. When it isn't, I've got plenty of explanation at the ready, much to the chagrin of the majority of posters.

Again, I know what it looks like when people falsely attribute opinions and preferences, and not only was BHK's post somewhat ambiguous as far as claiming Stan Lee's position on the subject, he has undeniable proof of Stan Lee's official position being that he likes these movies. If the case were otherwise and he was out of line, I'd be the first to speak up about it.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

anyhow My X-men....
.......The team would have been Cyclops,Jean, Iceman,Beast and Angel. They would have gone to fight Magneto and get captured. Then Professor X would travel the world to create a new team...Storm, Wolverine, Sunfire, Banshee, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Thunderbird. Thunderbird would die the X-men would be saved. The old team decides to leave as Cyclops leads the new one.
Costumes: While I like the black leather look for the movies I would move the color coordination of the suits to blue and yellow(the unofficial X-colors). The suits would look more like the basic X-uniforms that they use for training now. Then add the modifications for each character....tiger stripes for Wolverine, Cape and tiara for Storm, modified boots and cloves for Nightcrawler...ect ect ect......
Set up movie 2 for the sentinels and movie three for Phoenix

Cool ideas. :up:
Would Magneto have allies in this story, such as any incarnation or combination of the Brotherhood of Mutants?

I've got a bunch of ideas for a first X-Men movie, and it involves the second generation team without the original team (except for perhaps flashbacks... either way, the original team would definitely be mentioned as having been the first team and then either having been rescued by the current team or disbanding before the current team assembled). The standard training uniform would be worn by Kitty Pride, and the other X-Men would wear variations of their own original costumes. The main vllain would be Magneto, with the Toad, the Blob and Pyro (and maybe Mastermind or Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, I'm not sure) as his minions.

I'll hold off on posted what I've written on this subject until others have a chance to discuss an X-Men franchise and/or the subjects currently being discussed.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

****!!I wrote a long ass assessment of what I felt was wrong about the movie and now it just disappeared.****!!!I'll come back when I decide to go through it again.:mad::o:(:down:down:down

[roach]

Cool ideas. :up:
Would Magneto have allies in this story, such as any incarnation or combination of the Brotherhood of Mutants?

I've got a bunch of ideas for a first X-Men movie, and it involves the second generation team without the original team (except for perhaps flashbacks... either way, the original team would definitely be mentioned as having been the first team and then either having been rescued by the current team or disbanding before the current team assembled). The standard training uniform would be worn by Kitty Pride, and the other X-Men would wear variations of their own original costumes. The main vllain would be Magneto, with the Toad, the Blob and Pyro (and maybe Mastermind or Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, I'm not sure) as his minions.

I'll hold off on posted what I've written on this subject until others have a chance to discuss an X-Men franchise and/or the subjects currently being discussed.

:wolverine

I wouldnt have the Brotherhood in the first movie for two reasons. 1) You want to showcase that these guys are a team and if you have an evil team to fight everyone breaks into fighting their counterpart. X-men fighting Magneto would showcase the teamwork. 2) Magneto off the bat wouldnt form a team. After getting his ass handed to him he would.

[Herr Logan]

I wouldnt have the Brotherhood in the first movie for two reasons. 1) You want to showcase that these guys are a team and if you have an evil team to fight everyone breaks into fighting their counterpart. X-men fighting Magneto would showcase the teamwork. 2) Magneto off the bat wouldnt form a team. After getting his ass handed to him he would.

Ah, so you'd have this be the first time the X-Men defeat Magneto.

I'd use the Brotherhood for several reasons.
The first is that I want to cram as much X-Men goodness into every movie as is practical, because these characters can be very entertaining.

Secondly, Magneto's arrogance and overbearing manner doesn't just apply to his enemies and humanity; he directs it toward his minions. Blob is a circus freak looking to use what little he's worth to make a profit, and Pyro is a romance novelist who became a mercenary (I'm not even joking, that's really his backstory in the comics). These guys are mainly following Magneto for money and the prospect of power. This makes Magneto especially unsympathetic to them. The Toad is a loser who wants to belong, so he'll believe in whatever a charismatic leader will tell him to believe in. Still, he's annoying and he takes abuse from others like a superpowered doormat. Magneto vents his frustrations on the Toad the most, but he's also likely to yell at the others. Also, they fight amongst themselves, and I want to see a contrast between how the two teams work together. The X-Men treat each other like family; they fight amongst themselves, and Daddy Xavier is strict and demanding, but there's love. Magneto cares about all mutant, supposedly, but he sees his charges as soldiers in a much larger war. They're expendable, and they'd better damn well not act insolently. If Wolverine mouths off at Xavier, then it's just an argument. If the Blob mouths of to Magneto, it's a really bad scene.

As for the X-Men and Brotherhood members choosing sparring partners and having it just be individual battles, that's not what I had in mind. Just as the X-Men do in the comics, they switch partners and if there are more X-Men than Brotherhood (which there would be), there would be plenty of teamwork. Let's be honest, most of the X-Men have no chance of defeating Magneto himself, even while banding together. Wolverine and Colossus are completely useless in that capacity, and there's not much the other powerhouse (Storm or Cyclops) can do, either. The only real contender on my team lineup is Xavier. In the final battle, most of the X-Men would be keeping the Brotherhood busy (or unconscious) while Xavier and Cyclops battle Magneto (Cyclops keeps him trapped inside his magnetic forcefield while Xavier fights him on the Astral Plane) and Kitty Pride sabotages his big doomsday device. That leaves Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler against the Toad, Pyro and the Blob. The Blob is nigh invulnerable and the Toad is no pushover. There's plenty of room for teamwork.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

****!!I wrote a long ass assessment of what I felt was wrong about the movie and now it just disappeared.****!!!I'll come back when I decide to go through it again.:mad:

Oh, I hate it when that happens. Feh!

Come back soon, Abaddon. Don't let my thread die. :(

:wolverine

[Cullen]

Just a small heads up: I will get back to this thread. My life is in a tense juncture and I'm focused on other things. I'll get back to this when I can give it my usual 100%.

Or is it my usual 80%... :confused:

Nah, it's at least 95... 98%.

I think.

Well, it's some damn percent. I know that... :D

[Hunter Rider]

[QUOTE=Abaddon]****!!I wrote a long ass assessment of what I felt was wrong about the movie and now it just disappeared.****!!!I'll come back when I decide to go through it again.:mad:/QUOTE]

Oh, I hate it when that happens. Feh!

Come back soon, Abaddon. Don't let my thread die. :(

:wolverine

Your thread won't die:mad: :up:
ive just been ill that last couple of days so my posting is limited on the larger ideas posting this thread requires
Now Happy (belated) B-Day Boom and Ock:up:
I'll have Some ideas on a GG costume later:bomb:

[SoulManX]

If I said anything bad about Stan The Man I am sorry. Have not met him yet and hope to do so. It is just how can he like them...I wonder what Jack Kirby would think?

By the way don't forget who signed off on the 90's Marvel movies back in the day? (Stan)

Marvel and Dark Horse need to flex more muscle when it comes to films and tv. DC is to limp dicked to do anything against WB.

Take Barb Wire is very crappy film with nice fake breast and a some what actress attached to them. It was the worst 2 hrs of print wasted for a film. The plot was awful and Pammy was well Pammy. Then I read the comic which was very different from the movie.

Wonder what happen to the guy that created Barb Wire?

I am just sick of Studio hacks changing everything or studio like WB having a gem and using it.

And as for F4 where was Doom at? I want a Doom that would go to the UN and scary the hell out people with his mind. I want the Dicator Doom that his people love and Reed fears.

[roach]

If I said anything bad about Stan The Man I am sorry. Have not met him yet and hope to do so. It is just how can he like them...I wonder what Jack Kirby would think?

How could he like what writers have done to his characters in the books since him???
Easy. It is someone elses version of Spider-man.

[Herr Logan]

Just a small heads up: I will get back to this thread. My life is in a tense juncture and I'm focused on other things. I'll get back to this when I can give it my usual 100%.

Or is it my usual 80%... :confused:

Nah, it's at least 95... 98%.

I think.

Well, it's some damn percent. I know that... :D

A tense juncture? As in, a juncture actually worth calling "tense" in light of how things normally are with you? Man, everybody's having a rough time these days. :(
Feel better, Sullen. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

[QUOTE=Herr Logan]

Your thread won't die:mad: :up:
ive just been ill that last couple of days so my posting is limited on the larger ideas posting this thread requires
Now Happy (belated) B-Day Boom and Ock:up:
I'll have Some ideas on a GG costume later:bomb:

Sorry to hear you've been ill, Hunter. Feel better soon. :up:

You don't need to write short essays like I do in this thread. You're welcome to, though. I hope my huge posts aren't intimidating people and keeping them from posting. And I thought keeping my pre-written X-Men post and my ideas for faithful FF and Batman movies was restraining myself. It's just feeling a bit lonely in here lately.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

How could he like what writers have done to his characters in the books since him???
Easy. It is someone elses version of Spider-man.



This thread is about both addressing flaws and suggesting improvements. Pretty much every thread on this web site is rife with apologists defending failures. Defending failures alone is not permitted in here. If you defend a failure, you must supply another criticism of a film or member of a production team (which Stan Lee technically is in every single Marvel film) This discussion isn't invalid, but the way you're approaching it is. BHK addressed a failing and he's allowed to leave it at that for the moment. This is the last time I'm going to tap the sign (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6248395&postcount=1).

:wolverine

[roach]

This thread is about both addressing flaws and suggesting improvements. Pretty much every thread on this web site is rife with apologists defending failures. Defending failures alone is not permitted in here. If you defend a failure, you must supply another criticism of a film or member of a production team (which Stan Lee technically is in every single Marvel film) This discussion isn't invalid, but the way you're approaching it is. BHK addressed a failing and he's allowed to leave it at that for the moment. This is the last time I'm going to tap the sign (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6248395&postcount=1).

:wolverine

I wasnt defending a failure. I was just making a point.(Batman Begins sucked with the shakey camera fight scene editing) Unless Stan Lee is writing the books it is not his vision of the characters(Didnt the news report say Senator Kelly was dead at the end of X-Men so why isnt anyone questioning why he is up and about in X2).The books and the movies are the same thing...someone elses vision of his characters(Sure Bruce Wanye isnt gonna kill the thief but he'll blow up the base and who knows how many will die in the chaos).

[Herr Logan]

I wasnt defending a failure. I was just making a point. Unless Stan Lee is writing the books it is not his vision of the characters.The books and the movies are the same thing...someone elses vision of his characters.
BHK's point is that the movies are not just different versions of Stan Lee's, but inferior ones. I consider that to be overwhelmingly true. I've already explained to BHK how Stan Lee's official position is that he supports Marvel's productions and he specifically said he doesn't feel territorial about his creations being written by others, and his truly feelings on the subject are known only to him and those he may have told. That's a fact, not a recrimination against Stan Lee or BHK. I don't see why you're taking it personally when BHK didn't even insult Stan Lee. Unless you have any pertinent facts to add to that, this isn't an argument you should be having here

(Batman Begins sucked with the shakey camera fight scene editing)

(Sure Bruce Wanye isnt gonna kill the thief but he'll blow up the base and who knows how many will die in the chaos)
Agreed. The fight scenes were flawed through the movie.

Although, speaking from a lawyer-type standpoint, I think he did cover his ass with regard to blowing up the monastery. He kept repeating the word "executioner" (I watched it for the fourth time yesterday and was analyzing closely). It's not really an execution if you're setting off explosives in the stronghold of a terrorist faction set on destroying an entire city. I'm now coming to realize that he didn't really state specifically in the movie that he wouldn't kill anyone. He just won't be an "executioner," and he won't act out of "vengeance." The more I think about it, the more his behavior in the movie in and of itself is largely consistent.

That leaves the question of faithfulness to the comics, both with destroying the monastery and leaving Ra's to die on the train (even though the second clearly isn't murder from a legal standpoint). The Batman is known for always saving the villain when he has the chance, and he's very reluctant to do anything like what he did in the monastery, although he has probably done it several times in Post-Crisis continuity.

(Didnt the news report say Senator Kelly was dead at the end of X-Men so why isnt anyone questioning why he is up and about in X2)
No, the news report did not say Kelly was dead. It said Kelly's aide-- Henry Peter Gyrich-- was found dead, presumably mauled by a bear (Sabretooth). Senator Kelly was shown walking in that same news report. Mystique's masquerade as Senator Kelly began at the end of the first movie and continued into the next.

:wolverine

[SoulManX]

BHK's point is that the movies are not just different versions of Stan Lee's, but inferior ones. I consider that to be overwhelmingly true. I've already explained to BHK how Stan Lee's official position is that he supports Marvel's productions and he specifically said he doesn't feel territorial about his creations being written by others, and his truly feelings on the subject are known only to him and those he may have told. That's a fact, not a recrimination against Stan Lee or BHK. I don't see why you're taking it personally when BHK didn't even insult Stan Lee. Unless you have any pertinent facts to add to that, this isn't an argument you should be having here


Agreed. The fight scenes were flawed through the movie.

Although, speaking from a lawyer-type standpoint, I think he did cover his ass with regard to blowing up the monastery. He kept repeating the word "executioner" (I watched it for the fourth time yesterday and was analyzing closely). It's not really an execution if you're setting off explosives in the stronghold of a terrorist faction set on destroying an entire city. I'm now coming to realize that he didn't really state specifically in the movie that he wouldn't kill anyone. He just won't be an "executioner," and he won't act out of "vengeance." The more I think about it, the more his behavior in the movie in and of itself is largely consistent.

That leaves the question of faithfulness to the comics, both with destroying the monastery and leaving Ra's to die on the train (even though the second clearly isn't murder from a legal standpoint). The Batman is known for always saving the villain when he has the chance, and he's very reluctant to do anything like what he did in the monastery, although he has probably done it several times in Post-Crisis continuity.


No, the news report did not say Kelly was dead. It said Kelly's aide-- Henry Peter Gyrich-- was found dead, presumably mauled by a bear (Sabretooth). Senator Kelly was shown walking in that same news report. Mystique's masquerade as Senator Kelly began at the end of the first movie and continued into the next.

:wolverine
I respect all the creators of any comic tv and movies. What I don't respect is selling out on your creation. I respect Stan Lee alot I was a big Spider-Man fan and a bigger Batman fan. But Stan and Steve created Spider-Man and their version should be what I see. Not Bendis or Todd or any others.

[roach]

BHK's point is that the movies are not just different versions of Stan Lee's, but inferior ones. I consider that to be overwhelmingly true. I've already explained to BHK how Stan Lee's official position is that he supports Marvel's productions and he specifically said he doesn't feel territorial about his creations being written by others, and his truly feelings on the subject are known only to him and those he may have told. That's a fact, not a recrimination against Stan Lee or BHK. I don't see why you're taking it personally when BHK didn't even insult Stan Lee. Unless you have any pertinent facts to add to that, this isn't an argument you should be having here


Agreed. The fight scenes were flawed through the movie.

Although, speaking from a lawyer-type standpoint, I think he did cover his ass with regard to blowing up the monastery. He kept repeating the word "executioner" (I watched it for the fourth time yesterday and was analyzing closely). It's not really an execution if you're setting off explosives in the stronghold of a terrorist faction set on destroying an entire city. I'm now coming to realize that he didn't really state specifically in the movie that he wouldn't kill anyone. He just won't be an "executioner," and he won't act out of "vengeance." The more I think about it, the more his behavior in the movie in and of itself is largely consistent.

That leaves the question of faithfulness to the comics, both with destroying the monastery and leaving Ra's to die on the train (even though the second clearly isn't murder from a legal standpoint). The Batman is known for always saving the villain when he has the chance, and he's very reluctant to do anything like what he did in the monastery, although he has probably done it several times in Post-Crisis continuity.


No, the news report did not say Kelly was dead. It said Kelly's aide-- Henry Peter Gyrich-- was found dead, presumably mauled by a bear (Sabretooth). Senator Kelly was shown walking in that same news report. Mystique's masquerade as Senator Kelly began at the end of the first movie and continued into the next.

:wolverine

Yeah that's right.....damn my bad....I'll drop the Stan Lee thing.
From a legal standpoint what Batman committed by not saving Ras is Voluntary Manslaughter.

[Herr Logan]

I respect all the creators of any comic tv and movies. What I don't respect is selling out on your creation. I respect Stan Lee alot I was a big Spider-Man fan and a bigger Batman fan. But Stan and Steve created Spider-Man and their version should be what I see. Not Bendis or Todd or any others.

I agree. I don't expect Stan Lee to take a stand, though. He's a brilliant writer, but if he's not the one writing the books and movies, it's not on him to represent the fans' interests. He's not the most ethical guy in comics, you know (but not nearly as bad as Bob Kane or Joe Quesada, or even JMS and Bendis). He did right by the fans back in the day, but he's not even working for Marvel Comics anymore (they fired him) and his status as Executive Producer is pretty much In Name Only, granted through a legal maneuver he pulled decades ago (sort of like Bob Kane with Batman, but not nearly as trecherous).

Stan isn't the one who's screwing the fans. It's Avi Arad and pals. The ball is in their court and they're the ones choosing to spent hundreds of millions of dollars in mediocre films that could be both marketable and faithful to the source material and quality art in their own right.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Yeah that's right.....damn my bad....I'll drop the Stan Lee thing.
From a legal standpoint what Batman committed by not saving Ras is Voluntary Manslaughter.

A good enough lawyer could get the Batman and James Gordon aquitted of any charges of manslaughter without lying about it. It's complicated, but essentially R'as al Ghul's life isn't an issue when it comes to what was going on. Only collateral damage to property and to people that weren't trying to kill and hurt people.

:wolverine

[roach]

I respect all the creators of any comic tv and movies. What I don't respect is selling out on your creation. I respect Stan Lee alot I was a big Spider-Man fan and a bigger Batman fan. But Stan and Steve created Spider-Man and their version should be what I see. Not Bendis or Todd or any others.

I agree...but unless Stan Lee writes and directs a movie you'll never see his version.....(Is this cool Herr Logan....?)

[SoulManX]

I agree...but unless Stan Lee writes and directs a movie you'll never see his version.....(Is this cool Herr Logan....?)

I disagreed Stan layed down the blueprint and foundation with the help of great artists, inkers , and colorists. His blueprint is the movies foundation and which such his vision of the players in the funny books is what we should see.

Spider-Man the movie is Ultimate Spider-Man. A dumb down so called comic book movie. It is a shell of the man we call Spider-Man just like X-Men and Batman. Novels in some respect get better treatment than comic books. Stan Lee and the other comic creator have to tell Hollywood to stop butching their work. Richard Donner though not the greatest director at least understood what Superman was about. True Superman is not the greatest but it is a classic and still stands the test of time.

Will Spider-Man or X-Men do that?

[Herr Logan]

I agree...but unless Stan Lee writes and directs a movie you'll never see his version.....(Is this cool Herr Logan....?)

If you mean the cold harsh reality of that state, no, it isn't cool.

This thread isn't about reality, though. Somebody throw out some friggin' ideas!

I disagreed Stan layed down the blueprint and foundation with the help of great artists, inkers , and colorists. His blueprint is the movies foundation and which such his vision of the players in the funny books is what we should see.

Spider-Man the movie is Ultimate Spider-Man. A dumb down so called comic book movie. It is a shell of the man we call Spider-Man just like X-Men and Batman. Novels in some respect get better treatment than comic books. Stan Lee and the other comic creator have to tell Hollywood to stop butching their work. Richard Donner though not the greatest director at least understood what Superman was about. True Superman is not the greatest but it is a classic and still stands the test of time.

Will Spider-Man or X-Men do that?

What's really disgusting is that "Ultimate Spider-Man," shallow and pretentious though it is, is a hell of a lot funnier than either of the Spider-Man movies.

Anyway, I'd really like to get things back on-track. Everyone I personally invited here is well aware of the inadequacy and sqandered potential of the existing movies. I want to brainstorm ideas for what ideal movie representations would be like, just for its own sake. None of us are likely to change the insipid way Hollywood does business, and quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of ranting about how disappointing the industry is. It just makes me mad, and then some superficial little drone gets in my face and then it gets personal between posters and I end up getting a ridiculous penalty by shamefully biased authority figures. This is about us and our imaginations, not the studio shills who blather on and on about how wonderful all these movies are, not the hypocritical lackeys who feel the need to drive home the point that "this is how things are" and other such redundant "newsflashes." We've got ideas about how we would do it, how we'd bring alive the visions of Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, Chris Claremont, etc. Also for DC characters. Let's voice them.

I got other stuff I've already written up, but we've got plenty of people who haven't spoken up yet, and some people have comments about what's already been posted that haven't done so yet. If things keep being as dead as they are in here, I'll post the thing I wrote about the X-Men, but I'm assuming people will already have lost interest if that needs to happen.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

in a nutshell,I think its ridiculous the way they tried to make Peter a saint.They seemed to be afraid that by showing his flaws,he would appear to irredeemable in the audience's eyes.Instead they chose to make him a more "relatable" character by showing how he only acts selfish when the world is out to screw him.Pete is not perfect.He spent most of his life being picked on,and when he has the chance to change all that he somehow remains the humble schoolboy?Get the **** out of here.:rolleyes::down










Also,I would read your comments on the movie,but I'm afraid my eyes will explode.:(:o

[Boom]

Just want to let you guys know. I'm going on vacation. I leave tomorrow, and I'll be gone for a little less than two weeks (I believe nine days).

Herr Logan, thanks for the comments, and I'm 22.

[Herr Logan]

in a nutshell,I think its ridiculous the way they tried to make Peter a saint.They seemed to be afraid that by showing his flaws,he would appear to irredeemable in the audience's eyes.Instead they chose to make him a more "relatable" character by showing how he only acts selfish when the world is out to screw him.Pete is not perfect.He spent most of his life being picked on,and when he has the chance to change all that he somehow remains the humble schoolboy?Get the **** out of here.:rolleyes::down
I definitely agree.
One thing I was saying earlier is that the way Stan Lee and Steve Ditko presented it, Peter was still planning on being Mr. Perfect Nephew with his family. He was just going to ignore everyone else's demands of him. I am absolutely sure that if Ditko and Lee's Spider-Man got cheated out of his money during either the Crusher Hogan fight or the TV stunt demo (both of which I'd have in my movie), he'd force whoever was responsible to cough up his money. This is a guy who broke into the Fantastic Four's headquarters and took them all on just to prove he's good enough for the job (the job that didn't actually exist). He wouldn't just stand there and wait for some passive-aggressive way to get back at the fight promoter (he'd also wear his mask the entire time as well, not take it off like a complete moron). He got a check instead of cash for the TV appearance in the comics and he couldn't cash it, but that was a situation where nobody was to blame (although that is what prompted him to pull that stunt with the FF).
Anyway, I would definitely keep this dynamic if I was making the movie. He wouldn't argue or active dismiss toward Ben or May, but he'd be arrogant and terse with everyone else between the time he beats Crusher Hogan and gets his money and the time Uncle Ben is murdered (which would only be about ten or so minutes in screen time. After he finds Ben murdered, he goes into a rage, and after he realizes the part he played in all this, he becomes somewhat more meek (not completely, though, we'd still get a bit of cokiness in the Peter Parker persona) again, out of guilt, but also in order to keep himself disciplined and to maintain his secret identity.

Also,I would read your comments on the movie,but I'm afraid my eyes will explode.:(:o
Tough. :mad:

Read! I think you'll like at least some of it. You seem to definitely prefer Spider-Man as he was first written, and that's how I set it up in my semi-treatment.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Just want to let you guys know. I'm going on vacation. I leave tomorrow, and I'll be gone for a little less than two weeks (I believe nine days).

Herr Logan, thanks for the comments, and I'm 22.

...

You better have lots to say when you get back! :mad:

Again, Happy Birthday, and enjoy your vacation. :)

:wolverine

[Boom]

...

You better have lots to say when you get back! :mad:

Again, Happy Birthday, and enjoy your vacation. :)

:wolverine
Thanks.

[SoulManX]

I will tell what I would do different is Smallville. M&G screwed that gem off a show up. I mean it has promise but the morons who run it are completely off their rocker. Clark showing off his powers to everyone in the town and the city. It does not make sense that everyone just forgets or doesn't care.

I will have more later.

[Herr Logan]

I will tell what I would do different is Smallville. M&G screwed that gem off a show up. I mean it has promise but the morons who run it are completely off their rocker. Clark showing off his powers to everyone in the town and the city. It does not make sense that everyone just forgets or doesn't care.

I will have more later.

"Smallville" is easily one of the worst shows I've ever seen. That's one reason I watched so many epsodes of the earlier seasons; it's like a horrible, bloody traffic accident that you just can't stop gawking at.


Is this what it's come down to? "Smallville" being brought up and The vast majority of guests becoming deadly silent? I was foolish to think this would last more than week, if that. :(

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Daredevil conclusion

Ive decided that at the 3/4 point an epic rooftop battle should take place between DD and bullseye with Bullseye falling and crashing onto a car below like in Millers visionaries Vol 2,I think it would be unwise in the first film with no history between the 2 to have it be ambiguous as to wether DD couldve saved him,it needs to be clear it wasn't his fault.
I would then return to the court case with Matt and Foggy examining all the shipping logs and Matt notices that a number of the companies that the shipping line did buissnes with were affiliates of Fisk enterprises,
As DD he goes to investigate these several buissnessess only to discover most are fronts for several money laundering operations and that one of the previous crime families mentioned are behind the gun smuggling ,Matt presents the evidence in court to clear his client and we then see a scene at a resteraunt with the head of one of the crime families being arrested by rhe FBI while he's having a meal with Fisk,At this point i'd have the man look at kingpin and Kingpin utter the line *sacrifices*
Matt knows he can't prove anything about Fisk but decides to break into Fisk towers as DD and see what he can find
This would play as a stealth infiltration by DD until he comes across a secret laboratory used for building all kinds of weapons,(he locates through his hearing and Radar picking up the whirring of computers)
Whilst in the lab he trips an alarm and all hell breaks loose,we see some cool action with DD taking out Kingpins swat team by taking the lights out in the building(he's set a device on the power box in advance,i figure this is plausible as Matt is a smart man)
DD takes one of the still concious guards and gets the info of where Kingpin is,he quickly makes his way to the roof where Kingpin is escaping via chopper
DD shoots out his grapple from the end of his billy club and we see an awesome sequence of the chopper flying through NY with DD hanging on,eventually he make's his way up to the body of the chopper and he and Kingpin engage in a fight with Kingpin eventually knocking DD out of the chopper and escaping
Obviously there is no way Matt can prove Fisk is kingpin,Who would believe a blind lawyer who has no proof and can't explain how he knows what he knows ?
as always nothing traces back to Kingpin and no investigation is put in motion
The final scene would be of DD walking the rooftops delivering a monologue on how the fight against the kingpin would continue and musing on the irony of a blind man being the only one that could "see" what Fisk really was
the last shot would be of DD standing next to the statue of the the blindfolded lady holding the scales of justice

[Herr Logan]

Daredevil conclusion

Ive decided that at the 3/4 point an epic rooftop battle should take place between DD and bullseye with Bullseye falling and crashing onto a car below like in Millers visionaries Vol 2,I think it would be unwise in the first film with no history between the 2 to have it be ambiguous as to wether DD couldve saved him,it needs to be clear it wasn't his fault.
I would then return to the court case with Matt and Foggy examining all the shipping logs and Matt notices that a number of the companies that the shipping line did buissnes with were affiliates of Fisk enterprises,
As DD he goes to investigate these several buissnessess only to discover most are fronts for several money laundering operations and that one of the previous crime families mentioned are behind the gun smuggling ,Matt presents the evidence in court to clear his client and we then see a scene at a resteraunt with the head of one of the crime families being arrested by rhe FBI while he's having a meal with Fisk,At this point i'd have the man look at kingpin and Kingpin utter the line *sacrifices*
Matt knows he can't prove anything about Fisk but decides to break into Fisk towers as DD and see what he can find
This would play as a stealth infiltration by DD until he comes across a secret laboratory used for building all kinds of weapons,(he locates through his hearing and Radar picking up the whirring of computers)
Whilst in the lab he trips an alarm and all hell breaks loose,we see some cool action with DD taking out Kingpins swat team by taking the lights out in the building(he's set a device on the power box in advance,i figure this is plausible as Matt is a smart man)
DD takes one of the still concious guards and gets the info of where Kingpin is,he quickly makes his way to the roof where Kingpin is escaping via chopper
DD shoots out his grapple from the end of his billy club and we see an awesome sequence of the chopper flying through NY with DD hanging on,eventually he make's his way up to the body of the chopper and he and Kingpin engage in a fight with Kingpin eventually knocking DD out of the chopper and escaping
Obviously there is no way Matt can prove Fisk is kingpin,Who would believe a blind lawyer who has no proof and can't explain how he knows what he knows ?
as always nothing traces back to Kingpin and no investigation is put in motion
The final scene would be of DD walking the rooftops delivering a monologue on how the fight against the kingpin would continue and musing on the irony of a blind man being the only one that could "see" what Fisk really was
the last shot would be of DD standing next to the statue of the the blindfolded lady holding the scales of justice

I love it!! :up:

Looks like someone's been reading their Daredevil TPBs... ;)

Looks like you're feeling a bit better Hunter. Excellent, and thank you for posting.
I especially like the emphasis on the irony and the ongoing struggle to gather evidence on Fisk that will not only be admissible in court but enough to overcome the corruption and graft that keeps the Kingpin out of prison already.
Also, I reallythe scene where a mob family capo or boss gets arrested right in front of Fisk and he says "sacrifices." There should also be a scene earlier in the movie where the Kingpin talks about sacrifices.

Personally, I'd also have it made clear that the Kingpin's idea of "taking one for the team" doesn't just come from the Mafia code of honor (Omerta), because although he works with a lot of Mafiosi, he's not one of them. Just as that scumbag Brian Michael Bendis emphasized early in his un on "Daredevil," the Kingpin doesn't operate like traditional organized crime bosses-- of any type or culture-- do. He became the top dog by being the smartest, craftiest, strongest, most ruthless gangster around. In the Italian-American mob, for example, if you kill the Don, you can't be the Don. Screw that... Wilson Fisk is bigger than any single family boss, and he killed at least one of those. I really like how he started out as a poor kid on the streets who killed a man at the age of 12 or so, went to jail, and did him a whole mess o' book-learnin' while he was in stir. Then after working his way through the ranks of organized crime as the perfect enforcer, he snapped the neck of one of the most powerful crime bosses in New York and then took a controlling interest in every major mob in the state through sheer will, strength and charisma, and he had his criminal record wiped clean and became "a humble dealer in spices." One of the reasons I love your plot idea is because that's exactly what the Kingpin is supposed to be-- an importer/exporter who runs shipping lines as well as factories and warehouses. One thing I would want to make clear is that the Kingpin does not control every single criminal in New York. The way they went about it in the movie was idiotic. The Kingpin does not order around or get a cut from every single violent and white-collar criminal who operates in his city and state. However, if a gang operates within those boundaries and is discovered by Fisk's network, they'd better either already be kicking up percentages to the Kingpin, or they'd better start right away, and if they've been at it for a while, then the kick-up is retroactive from the beginning. The same applies to any solo criminals that prove themselves long-term successful crooks.
Perhaps Daredevil could unearth a big chunk of Fisk's history in the movie, so both he and the audience get an idea of what he's dealing with; a mobster who may well be the strongest "normal" human alive and has every organized crime syndicate scared *****less of him.

I definitely like the idea of Daredevil hanging onto Fisk's helicopter, but I would personally prefer a hand-to-hand (and billy club to blaster cane) fight between the two combatants on stable ground, where the Kingpin can really show what he's made of (muscle instead of fat), and then have Daredevil miraculously gain the upper hand (let's face it, the Kingpin is the more formidable foe any day of the week... he's successfully taken on Spider-Man, and while he could never actually take on the X-Men all by himself, he had no compunctions about threatening them) and then have the scene with the helicopter and Daredevil getting knocked out of the craft.

Would you have planned to have the Daredevil/Kingpin/Electra/Bullseye story in a sequel? If so, I'd save the bit with Bullseye falling from a height during a fight with Bullseye for that. In the first movie, I'd have Daredevil save Bullseye's life after he wins a fight (like when Daredevil pulls Bullseye off the train tracks when he has a brian tumor, except I'd leave out the brain tumor story and just have him be seen as arguably insane), and then after Bullseye kills Electra, Bullseye refuses to be saved again by Daredevil during their fight, as it was a humiliating experience the first time.

Again, very cool ideas. :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

I love it!! :up:

Looks like someone's been reading their Daredevil TPBs... ;)

Looks like you're feeling a bit better Hunter. Excellent, and thank you for posting.
I especially like the emphasis on the irony and the ongoing struggle to gather evidence on Fisk that will not only be admissible in court but enough to overcome the corruption and graft that keeps the Kingpin out of prison already.
Also, I reallythe scene where a mob family capo or boss gets arrested right in front of Fisk and he says "sacrifices." There should also be a scene earlier in the movie where the Kingpin talks about sacrifices.

Personally, I'd also have it made clear that the Kingpin's idea of "taking one for the team" doesn't just come from the Mafia code of honor (Omerta), because although he works with a lot of Mafiosi, he's not one of them. Just as that scumbag Brian Michael Bendis emphasized early in his un on "Daredevil," the Kingpin doesn't operate like traditional organized crime bosses-- of any type or culture-- do. He became the top dog by being the smartest, craftiest, strongest, most ruthless gangster around. In the Italian-American mob, for example, if you kill the Don, you can't be the Don. Screw that... Wilson Fisk is bigger than any single family boss, and he killed at least one of those. I really like how he started out as a poor kid on the streets who killed a man at the age of 12 or so, went to jail, and did him a whole mess o' book-learnin' while he was in stir. Then after working his way through the ranks of organized crime as the perfect enforcer, he snapped the neck of one of the most powerful crime bosses in New York and then took a controlling interest in every major mob in the state through sheer will, strength and charisma, and he had his criminal record wiped clean and became "a humble dealer in spices." One of the reasons I love your plot idea is because that's exactly what the Kingpin is supposed to be-- an importer/exporter who runs shipping lines as well as factories and warehouses. One thing I would want to make clear is that the Kingpin does not control every single criminal in New York. The way they went about it in the movie was idiotic. The Kingpin does not order around or get a cut from every single violent and white-collar criminal who operates in his city and state. However, if a gang operates within those boundaries and is discovered by Fisk's network, they'd better either already be kicking up percentages to the Kingpin, or they'd better start right away, and if they've been at it for a while, then the kick-up is retroactive from the beginning. The same applies to any solo criminals that prove themselves long-term successful crooks.
Perhaps Daredevil could unearth a big chunk of Fisk's history in the movie, so both he and the audience get an idea of what he's dealing with; a mobster who may well be the strongest "normal" human alive and has every organized crime syndicate scared *****less of him.

I definitely like the idea of Daredevil hanging onto Fisk's helicopter, but I would personally prefer a hand-to-hand (and billy club to blaster cane) fight between the two combatants on stable ground, where the Kingpin can really show what he's made of (muscle instead of fat), and then have Daredevil miraculously gain the upper hand (let's face it, the Kingpin is the more formidable foe any day of the week... he's successfully taken on Spider-Man, and while he could never actually take on the X-Men all by himself, he had no compunctions about threatening them) and then have the scene with the helicopter and Daredevil getting knocked out of the craft.

Would you have planned to have the Daredevil/Kingpin/Electra/Bullseye story in a sequel? If so, I'd save the bit with Bullseye falling from a height during a fight with Bullseye for that. In the first movie, I'd have Daredevil save Bullseye's life after he wins a fight (like when Daredevil pulls Bullseye off the train tracks when he has a brian tumor, except I'd leave out the brain tumor story and just have him be seen as arguably insane), and then after Bullseye kills Electra, Bullseye refuses to be saved again by Daredevil during their fight, as it was a humiliating experience the first time.

Again, very cool ideas. :up:

:wolverine

Thanks for the feedback Herr:up:
I think your right about the final battle,i think that DD should make it to the helipad before Kingpin has gotten aboard Kingpin turns to face him and DD thinks it's gonna be easy as he has no idea what he is up against in the physical stakes,He could perhaps make some "fatboy jibe" before they engage,what would follow would be a brutal fight that would have kingpin eventualy smash DD across the room,Believing him to be out,Kingpin boards his chopper to leave,But DD latches on as i described,however the badly beaten DD can't climb up and as the chopper fly's through Ny fisk has the pilot smash DD into a building but just as he is about hit the concrete wall he uses all he has left to swing off the chopper and through the glass window of a skyscraper.
Your dead on with the Bullseye point i would want to do the classic DD/Bullseye/Elektra story for a sequel so the fight between the 2 should be as you described,i thnik i would perhaps make it take place on a rainswept air craft carrier,i think i'd have Bullseye draw DD out by holding a group of tourists hostage aboard the air craft carrier and demand DD come to face him(it feels like smething he would do,brash,full of bravado and showy)the fight would ho all over the air craft carrier before DD finally beat him and left him for the cops
On the fisk front i agree,penny ante crime aint his style ,only major organisations are worth his time,as for his backstory,i wonder would it be feasible to have him have a diary ? that DD could read when he breaks into Fisk' towers,We could then go into a flashback of the events that shaped the Kingpin

[Anla'shok]

Wow, it's times like this when I feel that I may be a wee bit out there. All of your ideas and desires strike me as relatively feasible so far, truly I do not see why these things have not been accomplished as yet. Perhaps upon reading my wants they will come to appreciate how accommodating you gentlemen have been throughout these trying times. As a radical purist, I believe it is my job to scare the screaming bejebus out of the conformist thus herding them towards your ideas which by then would sound pretty damn fair by comparison. I think by playing my part, we can in unison eventually achieve what could be construed by many, to be a happy median.

And with that, It's time to go to work.


I've decided to utilize a question and answer format to illustrate my thoughts on the topics I afore mentioned. I suppose to an extent I agree with the shadows of B5, that a certain degree of conflict is a good catalyst to bring out the best, and the worst of us. So I created an imaginary sparring partner who will challenge my criticisms and also allow me to have fun with dialogue. Something as a writer I can never get quite enough of.

Q and A with Anla'shok!

Interviewer:

Hello everyone, I'm John E. Public here with Anla'shok. How are you doing Anla'shok?

Anla'shok: I'm doing fine, John.

John E. Public:

Now Anla'shok, It says here you are what is known as a Radical Purist.

Anla'shok:

Well, I'm interested in sticking to the source material as close as humanly possible. Some see this as a radical prospect so, yes, I suppose Radical Purist is what I can be construed as. I do not believe my ideas are very
radical, but I suppose that is to be expected.

John E. Public: Some have even dubbed you the Comic Book Taliban.

Anla'shok:

Heh, everyone's perspective on opposing ideas are different. When it comes to restricting efforts to cannibalize the works of others for profit and self aggrandizement I believe it is the responsibility of the extant to step up and say to thee, Nay! To preserve the integrity of creations whom creators have passed on, who no longer have a say in how their works will be portrayed. I believe it is our responsibility to preserve the creators message as closely as possible; for the work of an artist is their expression of life as they have perceived it. Barring offspring, it is their eternal offering to humanity. When one seeks to stamp out the last remnant of another humans voice, I find it to be a very disturbing trend. If someone attempted to do this to my voice, I would fight to the death to prevent it, and as a result, I am labeled a tyrant.

John E. Public:

So you think that a person who makes comic books can achieve immortality?

Anla'shok:

The tool is irrelevant, it is the task it is used to accomplish that I speak of, one of the greatest gifts of Human Kind, the ability to tell stories. Storytellers can achieve immortality because stories are eternal.

John E. Public: Deep.

Anla'shok: Not really.

John E. Public:

Hmn, but isn't the quest for immortality a little selfish? I mean usually it's the bad guys or the misguided who in the movies, seek such things out only to learn at the end the error of their ways.

Anla'shok:

Selfish? No more than procreation. But I believe what marks the difference between those you spoke of and others would be motivation. I'm an atheist, but there are many who believe that an individual named Jesus,
sought to spread a benevolent message a few thousand years ago. And according to their scripture it was something he made a decided effort to spread and instill before his time ended. Socrates, Plato before him, Ghandi
and King after, are individuals who wanted to spread a lasting message. History is littered with such individuals, of which many used stories to deliver their respective messages. No one wants to be forgotten, and everyone wants to be remembered fondly. People want their lives to have meaning, so a creator creates, and hopes that their creations have something to offer humanity. They hope that they have something to offer humanity, or at least be remembered for trying.

John E. Public: Your a very serious guy aren't cha?

Anla'shok: I have every season of Xena: Warrior Princess on DVD.

John E. Public: Really...? Why?

Anla'shok:

I think Gabriel is the hottest thing this side of the milky way, next to Dana Scully. And no one kicks butt quite like Xena. I am quite aware the series was not perfect, but It had enough elements to make me a happy camper. It could be very goofy one moment and very serious the next, much like myself.

John E. Public: Huh. What's your favorite movie?

Anla'shok: Fight Club.

John E. Public: I see, so what do yo ––

Anla'shok: First rule of Fight Club, is you don't talk about Fight Club.

John E. Public: Bu–

Anla'shok: Move along, son.

John E. Public:

Okay, okay, well let's get down to our subject this evening...Superhero costumes!

Anla'shok: Hooah.

John E. Public:

Allright, so as a "Radical Purist" what do you think of the results so far, yeah or nay?

Anla'shok:

Well, early on, regarding such films as "X-men," X2, Daredevil, and Elektra; I would give a resounding nay. But more recent attempts like the Fantastic Four whose costumes fairly resemble their 2 dimensional counterparts,
but everything else about the film being blisteringly awful renders the victory a most Pyrrhic one. If that is the invariable trade off for retaining a Comic Book characters attire, then kindly cease and desist on all fronts please.

John E. Public:

Okay, I've seen the X-men films and I've seen both Daredevil and Elektra. I gotta tell ya, I thought the X-men films were wonderful films. I even liked Daredevil, although it took, and still takes a beating from the geeks, uh.. no offense.

Anla'shok: None taken.

John E. Public:

I remember all the hubbub about the X-men's costumes and yellow spandex, we'll get to that later, but what was wrong with DD and Elektra's outfits? I thought they were spot on.

Anla'shok: One man's spot is another man's stain.

John E. Public:

C'mon, both outfits were red, DD had his horns, eye patches, mouth exposed. Elektra had her little get up, tight pants showing off jen's nice bod, what's not to like?

Anla'shok:

I had more problems with the Daredevil film than with his outfit, but, the devil as they say, is in the details. Daredevil is, what I like to refer to as an early practitioner of the vaunted art of Gymkata.

John E. Public: What? Ha!

Anla'shok:

Hey, I'm serious, that's what he does. He mixes martial arts and boxing with gymnastics. Only, he actually makes it look good. I realize what they were trying to accomplish visually with it. The Patton leather provided the dark shadows and red highlights reminiscent of the 2D color scheme in the books. Unfortunately Patton leather also made him look like a Sadomasochist with a particular fetish for strangulation–of the whole body! It just didn't make any sense. keep it simple, a man who spends a large part of his life bouncing around like a jumping bean does not want to be bundled in saran wrap.

John E. Public: Okay what fabric would you have used?

Anla'shok:

First thing I would have done is investigate the attire of those actually in the business of action, Athletes. Athletes through many years of experience have determined just what type of fabric suits their highly demanding needs. As can be evidenced by a simple visual inspection the garments are usually light, porous, and limited. The cardinal reason behind this is that when in motion the human body generates heat. Something that has apparently escaped the grasp of the movie creators like that of a smurf from gargamael. Lycra, appears to be the prime candidate for such endeavors I would use that supplemented by leather for the inseams and padding.

John E. Public:

Not very flashy, doesn't sound like a lot of money's going into it, either.

Anla'shok:

Should there be? The idea that a superhero costume must cost $50,000 or more is by far one of the most imbecilic notions ever to spawn from this genre. Film is a vastly overpriced medium, like that of sports, the amount of money we pay entertainers is staggering and grossly disproportionate to
the service being provided.

John E. Public: That's a very odd statement, as a storyteller, aren't you an entertainer, of sorts?

Anla'shok:

Storyteller yes, crook...no. Have you any animation experience?

John E. Public: Me? No, I can barely doodle.

Anla'shok:

I studied traditional animation and later added computer animation to my curriculum. Traditional animation can be a long tedious practice...thousands of illustrations to produce a few minutes of motion. The journey from pencils to inks to paint is a long, but rewarding one. One of the first things that occurred to me when I took up computer animation was that this journey was instantly reduced by over 98%. A rendered shape with a texture map could be produced in five minutes. Feathering, shading, attenuation, reflection and color all calculated by a processor and done for you in an instant. It was all so...easy. Now of course, in all things there are those who are going to be more adapt at a certain task, and computer animators/modelers are no exception. But the disparity between it and traditional animation were clear and evident.
Individuals whom I knew could barely conjure a stick figure could create fairly descent images and scenes in 3D programs they could never hope to match with paint and brush. I love working in both mediums, but I would never presume to prey upon the ignorance still so prevalent about computers today and suggest that what I was creating in Maya was akin to the creation of the universe; and proceed to ask for a clients first born as payment. That is what is happening out there in Hollywood. I have no problem with people making a living, but if your quest to line your pockets begins to take away from the story, we have a problem. Story first, everything else comes after.

John E. Public:

You do know that it's actually the other way around in Hollywood? In fact, it's that way about pretty much everything. Money first...everything else after.

Anla'shok: Baby steps John, baby steps.

John E. Public: A-ha, I guess that's where the 'radical' part comes in.

Anla'shok:

Everything is connected, nothing is an Island unto itself, the manifestations of greed can be felt in all walks of life, and it is rarely a pretty sight. I believe the best and purest instances of art are those where profit is not the leading or manipulating factor. Unfortunately the general public rarely sees such instances, they are fed a constant diet of these preprocessed products daily and have grown accustomed to the taste. Such doting on costumes and other merchandise is a by-product of this exposure. You spoke of my costume not being very flashy, it would be Daredevil's costume. There is no other objective needed in that factor, Daredevil himself would supply the flash. I lot of individuals think that purist are being superficial when complaining about a deviation of a superhero's outfit. I would like to clarify that in the grand scheme of things the costume is irrelevant.

John E. Public: Uh, okay. Well...wait a minute, you lost me. What's the problem then?

Anla'shok:

It's simple, when I, and, I imagine many others, complain about a costume change. What we are really saying is that you do not have the right to change this characters costume. You have not demonstrated that you know or care about the character to be allowed that luxury. It's about trust, and confidence in the storyteller. I liken it to being driven by someone in a car. A good driver(writer) shows that they understand the character they have been given control of, you feel comfortable with their decisions and turns in narrative and character development. You feel safe in their passenger seat, you are confident there will be no disastrous turns that display ignorance of a characters motivations and thus break the branches on the tree of character personality. An individual who knows the character inside and out can change their outfits all they like, because they would be skilled enough to tie it to the progression or regression of the character. It would work, because it would fall within the confines of the character model already established.
Time and time again these film makers have shown that they barely comprehend the core motivations of these characters, much less can reproduce them on screen. Until they do, they have no right to alter anything, no matter what piece of paper they've had signed.

John E. Public: Should I even mention Elektra?

Anla'shok: I love Elektra!

John E. Public: The movie?

Anla'shok: No.


Anla'shok:

I don't know what that was, but it sure as hell wasn't the Elektra I was introduced to in Daredevil #168. The Elektra I knew was a hard, cold, weapon who dispensed death like lottery tickets at a 7 eleven.
A body dedicated to the art of killing is going to look a certain way. It's going to be muscular, it's going to have scars and it's going to be weathered. The palms, knuckles, elbows, knees and feet are going to be hard and calloused. One of the alluring things about Elektra is that she is beautiful in spite of this condition.
Of course because of her upbringing and her line of work, she would know all too well about the fashions of the day, and be able to slip into them with ease when necessary. But when she is in her death persona, there is no fashion, there is nothing but the beast, the bringer of death, a scarlet visage of unbridled destruction.
Her clothes, like that of her former associates the Hand would be a simple assortment of bands and wraps, her torso would be covered in something reminiscent of a one-piece bikini. Probably wouldn't cost more than $500 to compile. Cries of modesty will be drowned out by the gurgling of her preys throats as she impales her sai through their esophagus. Her simplistic outfit will fade into the background of the audiences mind as they see her dispense with individuals with blinding speed and the merciless vigor of a wraith. And finally as she is seen strangling some poor shmoe to death with razor wire covered in blood it will sink into the dense minds of these sai twirling teeny boppers that Elektra was never meant to be the girl next door.
During that films production the first person who started babbling about corset lacing, low rise hot pants, and sai's with gobbly **** inscribed on them should have been back handed so ferociously the Kingpin himself would have had to look away.

[Anla'shok]

John E. Public:

Okay, so you've stated what you think DD and Elektra's costume should look like and why, these are more human level protagonists. Let us move into the final subject concerning costumes. X-men and other super powered beings. What are your thoughts about any deviations with characters like these?

Anla'shok:

Tell me if you've heard about this: There was a woman at a honolulu zoo with her family. As she came closer to the zoo the chimpanzees, who were serene and docile a moment ago became agitated and irate. They started to squeal and jump, all the while pointing at the woman. They then started to grab and tear at any foliage in the vacinity and hurl it in the woman's direction. They had to ask the woman to leave the area it was so bad. According to Zoo officials the tearing and tossing of foliage means a very specific thing for Chimpanzees. You see, the woman was a huge Madonna fan in the early eighties and she never quite grew out of that fashion era. According to reports that day her outfit was the spitting image of Madonna's during her "lucky star" video. It should be noted that Mrs Wantano clocks in at about 300 lbs.

John E. Public: Woo.

Anla'shok:

Yes, apparently the Chimpanzees were none too pleased with her choice of clothing that day, and felt the need to express it. After said events and in light of the chimpanzees obvious disapproval, Mrs Watano abandoned her Madonna attire for more contemporary apparel. You didn't hear about this?

John E. Public: No, this is the first I've ever heard of something like that.

Anla'shok:

And it will probably be the last., because it never happened, it never will happen. Chimps couldn't give a flying **** what we think is fashionable to wear and the notion that a person should be concerned about a Chimpanzees thoughts on their fashion, I wager pretty much never crosses most humans minds.

John E. Public: So your likening Super Heroes to Chimpanzees?

Anla'shok: In that analogy we would be the Chimpanzees.

John E. Public:

Come on, Super Heroes are people they just have...super powers. They still think and feel just like us, of course they are going to have the same social concerns.

Anla'shok:

In one respect you are correct, in another you are very, very wrong. Man has always had a fascination and fear of things that were more powerful than he. From the windstorms, monsoons, the tidal waves, the forest fire. The tornado and the earthquake. He also admired and feared the abilities of the earths other native creatures, the strength of the bear, the ferocity of the lion, the cunning of the panther, the speed of the cheetah, the flight of the Hawk. Most men throughout time if asked if they could possess the power of the bear, the speed of the cheetah or the flight of a Hawk, would answer with a resounding yes. The reason if obvious, because these attributes would mean power, and such power would mean freedom. Freedom from the limitations of the human frame, freedom from the limitations of the species itself. Such power would place them closer to the universal forces that have been his master for so many lifetimes. With such power he is a step further away from being the affected, to becoming a force himself.

That such desires exist and are ever prevalent today can be seen by man's ongoing quest to dominate the world around him. But the monumental achievements of humans can only be accomplished through a unified effort. Man cannot fly on his own, he needs the aids of others for this, man cannot destroy cities on his own, he needs the aid of others for this, even the ancient task of providing food for oneself is a distant memory, for there are men who must have food exported to them by others...or they will starve. These powers of mankind must be achieved through a group effort, participation in this group is conditional. These conditions manifest themselves as obligations, responsibilities, rules, laws...i.e; boundaries. Freedom from these entanglements for the normal human being comes with a price...the loss of such power.

Enter the super being, let us call her Aahna. Aahna appears to be as human as any of us save for one small attribute. She can weave dimensions. She can create the very fabric from which a dimension needs to exist. She can weave them, connect them, distort them, and she can shred them. This total power is only granted to her of dimensions she herself was not spawned from. She cannot permanantly alter her dimension for she and it are spacially joined in a symbiotic manner. But what she can do is more than enough. She can rip open dimensional gateways releasing untold horrors upon her enemies, she can distort the fabric of space around them achieving unspeakable results. She can render herself invulnerable, untouchable by phasing her body into a dimensional plane where no native physical object can enter. No human force on the planet can oppose her, she could wipe out humanity in a matter of hours. For all intents and purposes....she is a god.

Here is a being whose chains of compliance are broken. She is no longer
bound or beholden to the human collective. She has but three choices, to help, to hurt, or ignore. But the choice is hers and the destiny of mankind rest upon it. She is unto herself what several billion human beings who wake up in the morning strive to be, a universal force. She is Aahna, and she is completely, and utterly...free.

Now I ask you my friend, what does she wear?


John E. Public:

Cute, real cute. I think I'll answer that in our next segment. We'll
folks, I'd like to thank you for joining us this evening. Tune in for
our next segment of Q and A with Anla'shok, when we discuss
Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

Anla'shok: I can hardly wait.

[Herr Logan]

Thanks for the feedback Herr:up:
I think your right about the final battle,i think that DD should make it to the helipad before Kingpin has gotten aboard Kingpin turns to face him and DD thinks it's gonna be easy as he has no idea what he is up against in the physical stakes,He could perhaps make some "fatboy jibe" before they engage,what would follow would be a brutal fight that would have kingpin eventualy smash DD across the room,Believing him to be out,Kingpin boards his chopper to leave,But DD latches on as i described,however the badly beaten DD can't climb up and as the chopper fly's through Ny fisk has the pilot smash DD into a building but just as he is about hit the concrete wall he uses all he has left to swing off the chopper and through the glass window of a skyscraper.
Your dead on with the Bullseye point i would want to do the classic DD/Bullseye/Elektra story for a sequel so the fight between the 2 should be as you described,i thnik i would perhaps make it take place on a rainswept air craft carrier,i think i'd have Bullseye draw DD out by holding a group of tourists hostage aboard the air craft carrier and demand DD come to face him(it feels like smething he would do,brash,full of bravado and showy)the fight would ho all over the air craft carrier before DD finally beat him and left him for the cops
Totally on the same page, Hunter. :up:
I'm not sure where you got the idea for the aircraft carrier, but I think that would work fine. Bullseye publicly daring Daredevil to come stop him from killing hostages is definitely in character. The Kingpin always makes sure that nothing leads back to him, but he's often employed high-profile villains in the comics. As he said in the late 90's/early 00's, the reason he thrives during the city-wide crackdown on guns while other crime bosses are being crippled is because he doesn't rely on guns, he relies on people (specifically super-people and people who can do exceptional things). When the Kingpin hired Bullseye, the assassin had already been in prison and on television. In fact, he escaped custody during a televised interview, specifically so he could work for the Kingpin. Anyway, the point is, it's in character for Bullseye to make a spectacle of himself and still be employable by the Kingpin, so a publicized challenge to Daredevil would be not only viable but ideal.

On the fisk front i agree,penny ante crime aint his style ,only major organisations are worth his time,as for his backstory,i wonder would it be feasible to have him have a diary ? that DD could read when he breaks into Fisk' towers,We could then go into a flashback of the events that shaped the Kingpin
Personally, I don't like the idea of the Kingpin keeping a diary. That's not his style. The Kingpin is arrogant, but he is also extremely cautious. If there even exists any record that might implicate him, it's not anywhere Daredevil could find it.
What I think would be plausible is if Daredevil talks to cops who remember the Kingpin's past run-ins with the law before he had his legal records expunged (what they have to say is enlightening, but isn't good enough to convict Fisk in court), and also if he terrorizes and interrogates a few surviving mobsters who were affiliated with the gangs and syndicates that Fisk was involved in who have stories to tell but no evidence to offer. During these scenes, there could be flashbacks. Fisk himself could have an internal monologue, too.
That's just my take on this particular issue. Great story ideas, Hunter. :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Totally on the same page, Hunter. :up:
I'm not sure where you got the idea for the aircraft carrier, but I think that would work fine. Bullseye publicly daring Daredevil to come stop him from killing hostages is definitely in character. The Kingpin always makes sure that nothing leads back to him, but he's often employed high-profile villains in the comics. As he said in the late 90's/early 00's, the reason he thrives during the city-wide crackdown on guns while other crime bosses are being crippled is because he doesn't rely on guns, he relies on people (specifically super-people and people who can do exceptional things). When the Kingpin hired Bullseye, the assassin had already been in prison and on television. In fact, he escaped custody during a televised interview, specifically so he could work for the Kingpin. Anyway, the point is, it's in character for Bullseye to make a spectacle of himself and still be employable by the Kingpin, so a publicized challenge to Daredevil would be not only viable but ideal.

The idea of the Air craft carrier just came from my love of wanting to be an action sequence creator for movies,i always feel the Air craft Carrier is a visualy appealing setting for a battle to take place due to it's large presence dwarfing the combatants,also it has plenty of locations on it for the fight to flow through



Personally, I don't like the idea of the Kingpin keeping a diary. That's not his style. The Kingpin is arrogant, but he is also extremely cautious. If there even exists any record that might implicate him, it's not anywhere Daredevil could find it.
What I think would be plausible is if Daredevil talks to cops who remember the Kingpin's past run-ins with the law before he had his legal records expunged (what they have to say is enlightening, but isn't good enough to convict Fisk in court), and also if he terrorizes and interrogates a few surviving mobsters who were affiliated with the gangs and syndicates that Fisk was involved in who have stories to tell but no evidence to offer. During these scenes, there could be flashbacks. Fisk himself could have an internal monologue, too.
That's just my take on this particular issue. Great story ideas, Hunter. :up:


Thanks:up:
Im glad you came up with that,i really didn't like the diary idea it felt as you say outv'e character i just couldn't come up with a way to deliver some expostion for the Kingpin's backstory.
Another idea i could see working is Kingpin after the "sacrifises" scene sitting in his penthouse with a glass of port thinking and we get a close up of his eyes and when the camera pulls back it reveals a young kingpin and we get his backstory from there thus not adding extra character inquisitions into the mix and keeping things tighter
I would love a Kingpin monologue of him recounting his past i just can't think who he would really tell the story to,i know he told Smythe in SMTAS but he isnt in this story and i can't see him telling one of his assistants

[Herr Logan]

Wow, it's times like this when I feel that I may be a wee bit out there. All of your ideas and desires strike me as relatively feasible so far, truly I do not see why these things have not been accomplished as yet. Perhaps upon reading my wants they will come to appreciate how accommodating you gentlemen have been throughout these trying times. As a radical purist, I believe it is my job to scare the screaming bejebus out of the conformist thus herding them towards your ideas which by then would sound pretty damn fair by comparison. I think by playing my part, we can in unison eventually achieve what could be construed by many, to be a happy median.
I admit, I have been as accomodating as I feel is appropriate in the ideas I've expressed. In some ways, I do believe that's the right thing to do when making these beloved comic book stories into modern-day movies, not just for the lowest common denominator but for the fans as well. I do consider myself moderate and able to compromise, and I don't understand why so many people refuse to admit that. It's all about contrast, really. When confronted with a nasty conformist bully, then to mass of people who refuse to put a fair amount of consideration into what their witnessing, I come off like a radical purist. When contrasted with a self-proclaimed radical purist, I come off fairly moderate.
While I don't believe this thread will convince any non-true believers that our way is the right way, it would be a valid arguing tactic to give the one-two combo of somewhat compromising ideas shown in this thread and the strictly purist vision. I commend you, my friend. :up:

Oh no... oh sweet lord... I had no idea what was waiting for me in the following excerpt:
And with that, It's time to go to work.


I've decided to utilize a question and answer format to illustrate my thoughts on the topics I afore mentioned. I suppose to an extent I agree with the shadows of B5, that a certain degree of conflict is a good catalyst to bring out the best, and the worst of us. So I created an imaginary sparring partner who will challenge my criticisms and also allow me to have fun with dialogue. Something as a writer I can never get quite enough of.

Q and A with Anla'shok!

Interviewer:

Hello everyone, I'm John E. Public here with Anla'shok. How are you doing Anla'shok?

Anla'shok: I'm doing fine, John.

John E. Public:

Now Anla'shok, It says here you are what is known as a Radical Purist.

Anla'shok:

Well, I'm interested in sticking to the source material as close as humanly possible. Some see this as a radical prospect so, yes, I suppose Radical Purist is what I can be construed as. I do not believe my ideas are very
radical, but I suppose that is to be expected.

John E. Public: Some have even dubbed you the Comic Book Taliban.

Anla'shok:

Heh, everyone's perspective on opposing ideas are different. When it comes to restricting efforts to cannibalize the works of others for profit and self aggrandizement I believe it is the responsibility of the extant to step up and say to thee, Nay! To preserve the integrity of creations whom creators have passed on, who no longer have a say in how their works will be portrayed. I believe it is our responsibility to preserve the creators message as closely as possible; for the work of an artist is their expression of life as they have perceived it. Barring offspring, it is their eternal offering to humanity. When one seeks to stamp out the last remnant of another humans voice, I find it to be a very disturbing trend. If someone attempted to do this to my voice, I would fight to the death to prevent it, and as a result, I am labeled a tyrant.

John E. Public:

So you think that a person who makes comic books can achieve immortality?

Anla'shok:

The tool is irrelevant, it is the task it is used to accomplish that I speak of, one of the greatest gifts of Human Kind, the ability to tell stories. Storytellers can achieve immortality because stories are eternal.

John E. Public: Deep.

Anla'shok: Not really.

John E. Public:

Hmn, but isn't the quest for immortality a little selfish? I mean usually it's the bad guys or the misguided who in the movies, seek such things out only to learn at the end the error of their ways.

Anla'shok:

Selfish? No more than procreation. But I believe what marks the difference between those you spoke of and others would be motivation. I'm an atheist, but there are many who believe that an individual named Jesus,
sought to spread a benevolent message a few thousand years ago. And according to their scripture it was something he made a decided effort to spread and instill before his time ended. Socrates, Plato before him, Ghandi
and King after, are individuals who wanted to spread a lasting message. History is littered with such individuals, of which many used stories to deliver their respective messages. No one wants to be forgotten, and everyone wants to be remembered fondly. People want their lives to have meaning, so a creator creates, and hopes that their creations have something to offer humanity. They hope that they have something to offer humanity, or at least be remembered for trying.

John E. Public: Your a very serious guy aren't cha?

Anla'shok: I have every season of Xena: Warrior Princess on DVD.

John E. Public: Really...? Why?

Anla'shok:

I think Gabriel is the hottest thing this side of the milky way, next to Dana Scully. And no one kicks butt quite like Xena. I am quite aware the series was not perfect, but It had enough elements to make me a happy camper. It could be very goofy one moment and very serious the next, much like myself.

John E. Public: Huh. What's your favorite movie?

Anla'shok: Fight Club.

John E. Public: I see, so what do yo ––

Anla'shok: First rule of Fight Club, is you don't talk about Fight Club.

John E. Public: Bu–

Anla'shok: Move along, son.

John E. Public:

Okay, okay, well let's get down to our subject this evening...Superhero costumes!

Anla'shok: Hooah.

John E. Public:

Allright, so as a "Radical Purist" what do you think of the results so far, yeah or nay?

Anla'shok:

Well, early on, regarding such films as "X-men," X2, Daredevil, and Elektra; I would give a resounding nay. But more recent attempts like the Fantastic Four whose costumes fairly resemble their 2 dimensional counterparts,
but everything else about the film being blisteringly awful renders the victory a most Pyrrhic one. If that is the invariable trade off for retaining a Comic Book characters attire, then kindly cease and desist on all fronts please.

John E. Public:

Okay, I've seen the X-men films and I've seen both Daredevil and Elektra. I gotta tell ya, I thought the X-men films were wonderful films. I even liked Daredevil, although it took, and still takes a beating from the geeks, uh.. no offense.

Anla'shok: None taken.

John E. Public:

I remember all the hubbub about the X-men's costumes and yellow spandex, we'll get to that later, but what was wrong with DD and Elektra's outfits? I thought they were spot on.

Anla'shok: One man's spot is another man's stain.

John E. Public:

C'mon, both outfits were red, DD had his horns, eye patches, mouth exposed. Elektra had her little get up, tight pants showing off jen's nice bod, what's not to like?

Anla'shok:

I had more problems with the Daredevil film than with his outfit, but, the devil as they say, is in the details. Daredevil is, what I like to refer to as an early practitioner of the vaunted art of Gymkata.

John E. Public: What? Ha!

Anla'shok:

Hey, I'm serious, that's what he does. He mixes martial arts and boxing with gymnastics. Only, he actually makes it look good. I realize what they were trying to accomplish visually with it. The Patton leather provided the dark shadows and red highlights reminiscent of the 2D color scheme in the books. Unfortunately Patton leather also made him look like a Sadomasochist with a particular fetish for strangulation–of the whole body! It just didn't make any sense. keep it simple, a man who spends a large part of his life bouncing around like a jumping bean does not want to be bundled in saran wrap.

John E. Public: Okay what fabric would you have used?

Anla'shok:

First thing I would have done is investigate the attire of those actually in the business of action, Athletes. Athletes through many years of experience have determined just what type of fabric suits their highly demanding needs. As can be evidenced by a simple visual inspection the garments are usually light, porous, and limited. The cardinal reason behind this is that when in motion the human body generates heat. Something that has apparently escaped the grasp of the movie creators like that of a smurf from gargamael. Lycra, appears to be the prime candidate for such endeavors I would use that supplemented by leather for the inseams and padding.

John E. Public:

Not very flashy, doesn't sound like a lot of money's going into it, either.

Anla'shok:

Should there be? The idea that a superhero costume must cost $50,000 or more is by far one of the most imbecilic notions ever to spawn from this genre. Film is a vastly overpriced medium, like that of sports, the amount of money we pay entertainers is staggering and grossly disproportionate to
the service being provided.

John E. Public: That's a very odd statement, as a storyteller, aren't you an entertainer, of sorts?

Anla'shok:

Storyteller yes, crook...no. Have you any animation experience?

John E. Public: Me? No, I can barely doodle.

Anla'shok:

I studied traditional animation and later added computer animation to my curriculum. Traditional animation can be a long tedious practice...thousands of illustrations to produce a few minutes of motion. The journey from pencils to inks to paint is a long, but rewarding one. One of the first things that occurred to me when I took up computer animation was that this journey was instantly reduced by over 98%. A rendered shape with a texture map could be produced in five minutes. Feathering, shading, attenuation, reflection and color all calculated by a processor and done for you in an instant. It was all so...easy. Now of course, in all things there are those who are going to be more adapt at a certain task, and computer animators/modelers are no exception. But the disparity between it and traditional animation were clear and evident.
Individuals whom I knew could barely conjure a stick figure could create fairly descent images and scenes in 3D programs they could never hope to match with paint and brush. I love working in both mediums, but I would never presume to prey upon the ignorance still so prevalent about computers today and suggest that what I was creating in Maya was akin to the creation of the universe; and proceed to ask for a clients first born as payment. That is what is happening out there in Hollywood. I have no problem with people making a living, but if your quest to line your pockets begins to take away from the story, we have a problem. Story first, everything else comes after.

John E. Public:

You do know that it's actually the other way around in Hollywood? In fact, it's that way about pretty much everything. Money first...everything else after.

Anla'shok: Baby steps John, baby steps.

John E. Public: A-ha, I guess that's where the 'radical' part comes in.

Anla'shok:

Everything is connected, nothing is an Island unto itself, the manifestations of greed can be felt in all walks of life, and it is rarely a pretty sight. I believe the best and purest instances of art are those where profit is not the leading or manipulating factor. Unfortunately the general public rarely sees such instances, they are fed a constant diet of these preprocessed products daily and have grown accustomed to the taste. Such doting on costumes and other merchandise is a by-product of this exposure. You spoke of my costume not being very flashy, it would be Daredevil's costume. There is no other objective needed in that factor, Daredevil himself would supply the flash. I lot of individuals think that purist are being superficial when complaining about a deviation of a superhero's outfit. I would like to clarify that in the grand scheme of things the costume is irrelevant.

John E. Public: Uh, okay. Well...wait a minute, you lost me. What's the problem then?

Anla'shok:

It's simple, when I, and, I imagine many others, complain about a costume change. What we are really saying is that you do not have the right to change this characters costume. You have not demonstrated that you know or care about the character to be allowed that luxury. It's about trust, and confidence in the storyteller. I liken it to being driven by someone in a car. A good driver(writer) shows that they understand the character they have been given control of, you feel comfortable with their decisions and turns in narrative and character development. You feel safe in their passenger seat, you are confident there will be no disastrous turns that display ignorance of a characters motivations and thus break the branches on the tree of character personality. An individual who knows the character inside and out can change their outfits all they like, because they would be skilled enough to tie it to the progression or regression of the character. It would work, because it would fall within the confines of the character model already established.
Time and time again these film makers have shown that they barely comprehend the core motivations of these characters, much less can reproduce them on screen. Until they do, they have no right to alter anything, no matter what piece of paper they've had signed.

John E. Public: Should I even mention Elektra?

Anla'shok: I love Elektra!

John E. Public: The movie?

Anla'shok: No.


Anla'shok:

I don't know what that was, but it sure as hell wasn't the Elektra I was introduced to in Daredevil #168. The Elektra I knew was a hard, cold, weapon who dispensed death like lottery tickets at a 7 eleven. A body dedicated to the art of killing is going to look a certain way. It's going to be muscular, it's going to have scars and it's going to be weathered. The palms, knuckles, elbows, knees and feet are going to be hard and calloused. One of the alluring things about Elektra is that she is beautiful in spite of this condition.
Of course because of her upbringing and her line of work, she would know all too well about the fashions of the day, and be able to slip into them with ease when necessary. But when she is in her death persona, there is no fashion, there is nothing but the beast, the bringer of death, a scarlet visage of unbridled destruction.
Her clothes like that of her former associates the Hand would be a simple assortment of bands and wraps, her torso would be covered in something reminiscent of a one-piece bikini. Probably wouldn't cost more than $500 to compile. Cries of modesty will be drowned out by the gurgling of her preys throats as she impales her sai through their esophagus. Her simplistic outfit will fade into the background of the audiences mind as they see her dispense with individuals with blinding speed and merciless vigor of a wraith.
And finally as she is seen strangling some poor shmoe to death with razor wire covered in blood it will sink into the dense minds of these sai twirling teeny boppers that Elektra was never meant to be the girl next door.
During that films production the first person who started babbling about corset lacing, low rise hot pants, and sai's with gobbly **** inscribed on them should have been back handed so ferociously the Kingpin himself would have had to look away.

Jesus Herbert Walker Christ (Esquire) on a big-wheel bike cycling backwards into a whorehouse during his third cousin's wedding...

My eyes! My flaws but once-functional eyes! They've been assaulted by the blinding brilliance that is Anla'shok's self-dialogue!

You know, I could have been playing "Prince of Persia: Sands of Time" instead of reading that first barrage of text. I could even start now instead of going ahead and reading the second barrage. In fact, I should, since that way I can spread it out and insure I'll have something to read in this thread other than my own last response next time I'm here. But I have no self-control. I must push on and gorge myself on this... this... what's the literary equivalent of ambrosia? Literary ambrosia!

Anla'shok, I was waiting and waiting and waiting for you to make good on your earlier proposal. And here's the payoff. This is beautful. It's everything a piece of writing should be: intelligently conceived, cogently written, socially/artistically/intellectually relevant, friggin' hilarious, and indicative of not only one's love of superhero fiction, but the desire to improve its large-scale commercial adaptations.
That's right, I said every piece of writing should include those attributes. Novels, text books, new articles, instruction manuals. Everything!

Thank you, Anla'shok. Thank you for sharing what can only be described as the deranged ravings of an insane genius. I look forward to reading the next installment (which has already been posted, I just haven't read it yet), and every one after that. Keep 'em coming, buddy. This is truly brilliant.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

John E. Public:

Okay, so you've stated what you think DD and Elektra's costume should look like and why, these are more human level protagonists. Let us move into the final subject concerning costumes. X-men and other super powered beings. What are your thoughts about any deviations with characters like these?

Anla'shok:

Tell me if you've heard about this: There was a woman at a honolulu zoo with her family. As she came closer to the zoo the chimpanzees, who were serene and docile a moment ago became agitated and irate. They started to squeal and jump, all the while pointing at the woman. They then started to grab and tear at any foliage in the vacinity and hurl it in the woman's direction. They had to ask the woman to leave the area it was so bad. According to Zoo officials the tearing and tossing of foliage means a very specific thing for Chimpanzees. You see, the woman was a huge Madonna fan in the early eighties and she never quite grew out of that fashion era. According to reports that day her outfit was the spitting image of Madonna's during her "lucky star" video. It should be noted that Mrs Wantano clocks in at about 300 lbs.

John E. Public: Woo.

Anla'shok:

Yes, apparently the Chimpanzees were none too pleased with her choice of clothing that day, and felt the need to express it. After said events and in light of the chimpanzees obvious disapproval, Mrs Watano abandoned her Madonna attire for more contemporary apparel. You didn't hear about this?

John E. Public: No, this is the first I've ever heard of something like that.

Anla'shok:

And it will probably be the last., because it never happened, it never will happen. Chimps couldn't give a flying **** what we think is fashionable to wear and the notion that a person should be concerned about a Chimpanzees thoughts on their fashion, I wager pretty much never crosses most humans minds.

John E. Public: So your likening Super Heroes to Chimpanzees?

Anla'shok: In that analogy we would be the Chimpanzees.

John E. Public:

Come on, Super Heroes are people they just have...super powers. They still think and feel just like us, of course they are going to have the same social concerns.

Anla'shok:

In one respect you are correct, in another you are very, very wrong. Man has always had a fascination and fear of things that were more powerful than he. From the windstorms, monsoons, the tidal waves, the forest fire. The tornado and the earthquake. He also admired and feared the abilities of the earths other native creatures, the strength of the bear, the ferocity of the lion, the cunning of the panther, the speed of the cheetah, the flight of the Hawk. Most men throughout time if asked if they could possess the power of the bear, the speed of the cheetah or the flight of a Hawk, would answer with a resounding yes. The reason if obvious, because these attributes would mean power, and such power would mean freedom. Freedom from the limitations of the human frame, freedom from the limitations of the species itself. Such power would place them closer to the universal forces that have been his master for so many lifetimes. With such power he is a step further away from being the affected, to becoming a force himself.

That such desires exist and are ever prevalent today can be seen by man's ongoing quest to dominate the world around him. But the monumental achievements of humans can only be accomplished through a unified effort. Man cannot fly on his own, he needs the aids of others for this, man cannot destroy cities on his own, he needs the aid of others for this, even the ancient task of providing food for oneself is a distant memory, for there are men who must have food exported to them by others...or they will starve. These powers of mankind must be achieved through a group effort, participation in this group is conditional. These conditions manifest themselves as obligations, responsibilities, rules, laws...i.e; boundaries. Freedom from these entanglements for the normal human being comes with a price...the loss of such power.

Enter the super being, let us call her Aahna. Aahna appears to be as human as any of us save for one small attribute. She can weave dimensions. She can create the very fabric from which a dimension needs to exist. She can weave them, connect them, distort them, and she can shred them. This total power is only granted to her of dimensions she herself was not spawned from. She cannot permanantly alter her dimension for she and it are spacially joined in a symbiotic manner. But what she can do is more than enough. She can rip open dimensional gateways releasing untold horrors upon her enemies, she can distort the fabric of space around them achieving unspeakable results. She can render herself invulnerable, untouchable by phasing her body into a dimensional plane where no native physical object can enter. No human force on the planet can oppose her, she could wipe out humanity in a matter of hours. For all intents and purposes....she is a god.

Here is a being whose chains of compliance are broken. She is no longer
bound or beholden to the human collective. She has but three choices, to help, to hurt, or ignore. But the choice is hers and the destiny of mankind rest upon it. She is unto herself what several billion human beings who wake up in the morning strive to be, a universal force. She is Aahna, and she is completely, and utterly...free.

Now I ask you my friend, what does she wear?


John E. Public:

Cute, real cute. I think I'll answer that in our next segment. We'll
folks, I'd like to thank you for joining us this evening. Tune in for
our next segment of Q and A with Anla'shok, when we discuss
Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

Anla'shok: I can hardly wait.

*still weeping in out of sheer joy*

What can I say about any of what you've presented here except, I agree (and all that geekish praise I wrote earlier)! You've put into words what I have always believed yet could not express nearly as well as you have. I don't feel I have anything really to add thus far. Any related issues to bring up may or may not be addressed in a later segment of "Q and A with Anla'shok," or brought up by another contributor here. I'd like to give as much room for others' comments as possible (I'm talking about me holding, back... you can post as much as you damn well please), since I already have what must be the annoying habit of tossing out a bulky and tangent-filled post whenever I have the urge.

Thanks again, Anla'shok. Keep up the excellent work. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

The idea of the Air craft carrier just came from my love of wanting to be an action sequence creator for movies,i always feel the Air craft Carrier is a visualy appealing setting for a battle to take place due to it's large presence dwarfing the combatants,also it has plenty of locations on it for the fight to flow through

Thanks:up:
Im glad you came up with that,i really didn't like the diary idea it felt as you say outv'e character i just couldn't come up with a way to deliver some expostion for the Kingpin's backstory.
Another idea i could see working is Kingpin after the "sacrifises" scene sitting in his penthouse with a glass of port thinking and we get a close up of his eyes and when the camera pulls back it reveals a young kingpin and we get his backstory from there thus not adding extra character inquisitions into the mix and keeping things tighter
I would love a Kingpin monologue of him recounting his past i just can't think who he would really tell the story to,i know he told Smythe in SMTAS but he isnt in this story and i can't see him telling one of his assistants
Ah, so we are on the same page on that issue as well. Excellent.

I think I'd like to see at least one conversation between either Dardevil and somebody else or between two criminals with connections to Fisk that gives us at least a piece of the story. That could set the audience up nicely for a Kingpin's eye-view flashback just as you suggested. Perhaps we'd see Fisk watching a news discussion program where people are talking about rumors and allegations that all of New York's organized crime is being controlled by one man, and how something like that could have happened. I mean, it is an extremely unlikely scenario that bears analysis. Even the real-life boss that "The Godfather's" Vito Corleone was based (Joe Bonano) was only one of several family heads, and when these families tried to form a lasting alliance, it never worked. Maybe that sort of televised discussion between crime history experts could trigger a smug smile and internal flashback in Fisk.

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Ah, so we are on the same page on that issue as well. Excellent.

I think I'd like to see at least one conversation between either Dardevil and somebody else or between two criminals with connections to Fisk that gives us at least a piece of the story. That could set the audience up nicely for a Kingpin's eye-view flashback just as you suggested. Perhaps we'd see Fisk watching a news discussion program where people are talking about rumors and allegations that all of New York's organized crime is being controlled by one man, and how something like that could have happened. I mean, it is an extremely unlikely scenario that bears analysis. Even the real-life boss that "The Godfather's" Vito Corleone was based (Joe Bonano) was only one of several family heads, and when these families tried to form a lasting alliance, it never worked. Maybe that sort of televised discussion between crime history experts could trigger a smug smile and internal flashback in Fisk.

:wolverine
I think the way i would do the interrigation would be during one of the earlier sections when Daredevil is clearing up one of Kingpins operations ,He catches a guy who he wants to talk and the guy actually throws himself off a building rather than discuss the Kingpin,we then see Matt meeting with an old Con who has gotten outv'e the crime buissnes since Kingpin came into the picture,he tells Matt of the type of man Kingpin is and how he rules with a fist of Iron
The idea about the TV disscussion and the Smug Smile leading to the flashback is superb my friend, that is the way it should be done:up:

[roach]

The idea of the Air craft carrier just came from my love of wanting to be an action sequence creator for movies,i always feel the Air craft Carrier is a visualy appealing setting for a battle to take place due to it's large presence dwarfing the combatants,also it has plenty of locations on it for the fight to flow through

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Aircraft Carrier. I was stationed on USS Constellation (CV-64) for over four years and I know pretty much all about that ship. Feel free to pick my brain.

[Hunter Rider]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Aircraft Carrier. I was stationed on USS Constellation (CV-64) for over four years and I know pretty much all about that ship. Feel free to pick my brain.

I'll be honest ive never seen one in real life but ive always loved how they look in movies and how they provide an epic backdrop for a fight sequence,i think if i were really doing a movie i would like to look around the one being used for the film and story board it from there,I picture the fight starting on the deck,with the rain lashing down and the 2 men fighting,it would then move into the body of the ship but i have no knowledge of the geography of the inards of an air craft carrier so i'd like to hear how you would use the ship as another character so to speak in the sequence
Idealy it would end on the top of the gun emplacement and DD would knock Bullseye off but jump after him and catch him before he hit the floor and stop their momentum by using his billy club grapple to hook onto one of the cannon's

[kame-sennin]

Ok, I gotta get this off of my chest. I've been checking out the batman sequel boards, and I consistently see people berating the concept of having Robin in the sequels. It didn't bother me at first (honestly I'm not a Robin fan myself), but the constant, unending attacks on the very worth of the character forced me into coming up with a plausible (I never want to hear the term "realism" used in conjunction with a character who dresses as a giant bat) film origin for the character. I'm not sure if I satisfyied that requirement, but I did my best so here goes:

The third sequel of BATMAN BEGINS (the fourth film of the franchise) should start off a new trilogy that brings in Dick Grayson, but still keeps the focus squarely on Batman. This is done in two ways; first, Dick's story is really a retelling of Bruce's, so we get to watch Batman re-experience his childhood trauma, and second, we see a completely new side to Batman's character i.e., Batman the mentor.

The film begins with a group of thugs holding hostages in a slummy abandoned building. The kidnappers are seen shouting demands and refusing to surrender from the window of the top floor. The police, lead by Commissioner Gordon, have surrounded the building and are about to send in the SWAT team. Just as another officer prepares to give the go-ahead, a large black figure "swooshes" overhead to land on the abandoned rooftop. Gordon looks up to observe the shadowy figure and then turns to the officer, "Forget the SWAT team, we're not gonna need em'... but he's gonna need a few safety nets." The officer remarks "He?" just as two thugs crash through the window they were previously shouting out of. They fall several stories until they miraculously come to a bungied stop about ten feet over the surrounding officer's heads. The camera cuts to show us black cables tied around their ankles. Gordon replies, "nevermind" and we cut to the inside of the abandoned building. Batman moves through the shadows to quickly disarm and defeat all the kidnappers in a matter of moments. We can't really see Batman's movements (but this is the only sequence where this occurs), and the battle is over quickly, the hostages are seen escaping during the commotion. While all this is occurring, we cut to a kidnapper hiding out in the bathroom. He is terrified and armed with a shotgun (it's Pulp Fiction inspired, sue me). As Batman dispatches with his comrades and begins tying them up, the last kidnapper bursts through the bathroom door and levels his shotgun at Batman's back. In an instant, Batman turns and knocks the muzzle toward the ground. However, the shotgun goes off and blasts a whole through the floor just under Batman's feet. Batman begins his decent through the dilapidated building, crashing through some floors or simply falling through holes already in place. He then pulls out his grappling gun and fires it at the ceiling. The grapple attaches to the ceiling, but the cord catches the edge of a broken floorboard. Batman is swung sidewise just before the cord snaps and the dark knight is sent crashing through a second story window. He lands in a back alley, fortunately their are no witnesses around (the police have already moved in to take out the kidnappers). Batman presses a button on his utility belt to summon the Batmobile, and hobbles to safety when it arrives.

I apologize for the excessive details in the above scenario. I needed to describe this scene fully as it is the catalyst for the rest of the film. The rest should be a more breezy plot synopsis.

A few scenes follow where we find out that the last kidnapper was captured by the GCPD. We move to the Batcave a few weeks after the incident where Batman is heavily bandaged, but going about his business. On his computer screen, we see the faces of several strong young men (some in police uniform, others in military dress) as well as Commissioner Gordon's ID photo. Alfred enters, "Composing a men of law enforcement calender, are we Master Bruce?". Batman doesn't react to the jibe, but a moment later explains the ID photo's. He tells Alfred that he has come to the realization that his quest for justice could be cut short too easily. After his "reckless stupidity" a few weeks prior, he has decided to line up a replacement should he be struck down in his war on crime. He remarks that Gordon is probably too old, but he is the only one he could trust. He then explains that when he finds a replacement, Alfred is to confront the man (upon Bruce's death), explain the legacy of Batman, and provide him with all the resources necessary to take up the mantle. Alfred takes a moment to absorb what he's just been told, and then quips, "I'm glad you've made preparations for your death Master Bruce, the way you lunge headlong into life threatening situations, I was beginning to think you were a bit irresponsible." Before Alfred leaves, he places an invitation next to Batman. He explains that the Wayne family charity organization has invited the circus to Gotham, and he is expected to attend.

I think we all know what happens next. We get a few scenes with a gangster trying (and failing) to intimidate the circus owner into paying protection money, and Dick's parents falling to their deaths as the result. Bruce witnesses their death's as well as ten-year old Dick's brilliant acrobatic skills and offers to take the boy in after the incident.

I like the way the BTAS episode, "Robin's reckoning part I" handled the origin, so after Batman has taken in Dick, he makes it his personal mission to track down his the Grayson's killers. However, the trail leads him to a larger plot to take over the cities' criminal network by Rupert Thorn (or any other mafioso). That means that there is no super villain in this film. The reason I think that's important is because I want to focus on Bruce and Dick's relationship, and to make this film feel as down to earth as the previous franchise (but the big guns will come in the sequal).

Taking place separately from the main plot, we see Dick accidentally discover the Batcave and confront Batman/Bruce. Bruce explains to Dick that he understands the rage he feels, and can teach him how to channel it. He explains that fighting to prevent others from feeling the pain he felt when his parents were murdered was the only thing that helped him get over their deaths. Then comes the training montage (yay!):

We see Bruce sparing with Dick and teaching him to use various weapons. It turns out that Bruce is not a nice teacher, he's as harsh and unforgiving as Ra's, but Dick is an apt pupil. In one scene, Bruce places a display of throwing knives and shuriken in front of Dick. Bruce then walks to a wall about 15 feet away and mounts a target, just as he places it, a throwing knife drives itself into the target. We cut to Dick with several knives in between his fingers, "I grew up at the circus". Another training scene shows Bruce loading, cocking, and firing various handguns and rifles while Dick, blindfolded, shouts off the model and round-per-clip numbers. All through out the training, Bruce admonishes Dick for his lack of speed, and explains that the criminal element won't be half as forgiving as he is (however, the audience catches glimpses of Bruce grinning and his general sense of pride in Dick's abilities).

Eventually Alfred questions Bruce, "I'm glad you're finally spending time with the boy, but instead of practical ballistics training, might I suggest... a game of catch?" Bruce then explains that no man could handle the mantle of Batman being thrust upon him so late in life (not to mention the trust issues), a true successor would have to be trained from a young age. As a kindred spirit, and accomplished acrobat, Dick is perfect for the job. He then shows Alfred a begins style adult bodysuit. It has no cape or cowl, just a blue bat stretched across the chest and shoulders that eerily resembles Nightwing's costume design. Alfred breaks from his comedic tone and registers clear disappointment that Bruce has involved another in this life. However, he acknowledges Dick's need for a positive outlet, as well as his inability to stop Bruce under the same circumstances, and admits that Dick may grow to be a better Batman than Bruce ever was.

The film ends with Batman compiling the evidence to take down Thorn's empire, and Dick not yet in costume. The second film in the trilogy show's Robin (now aged 12-15) getting into costume and teaming up with Batman (reluctantly of course) to take down the Riddler. I will tackle this in a later post. However, since the motivation and reasoning behind Robin have already been established, him actually beginning to fight crime should be covered quickly so as not to absorb to much attention in the film.

The third film, with an 18-20 year old Robin could show the relationship deteriorate (again, a small sub-plot), and Dick go off on his own. Naturally, the last scene in the film would show Dick recieving a package from Alfred with the previosly mentioned Nightwing costume in it, and the rest is for another filmmaker, and another franchise.

[Herr Logan]

I think the way i would do the interrigation would be during one of the earlier sections when Daredevil is clearing up one of Kingpins operations ,He catches a guy who he wants to talk and the guy actually throws himself off a building rather than discuss the Kingpin,we then see Matt meeting with an old Con who has gotten outv'e the crime buissnes since Kingpin came into the picture,he tells Matt of the type of man Kingpin is and how he rules with a fist of Iron
The idea about the TV disscussion and the Smug Smile leading to the flashback is superb my friend, that is the way it should be done:up:

Yeah, I like that idea, having an ex-con or long-term crook who's still in prison give his take on the Kingpin and what he's all about. :up:

:wolverine

[roach]

I'll be honest ive never seen one in real life but ive always loved how they look in movies and how they provide an epic backdrop for a fight sequence,i think if i were really doing a movie i would like to look around the one being used for the film and story board it from there,I picture the fight starting on the deck,with the rain lashing down and the 2 men fighting,it would then move into the body of the ship but i have no knowledge of the geography of the inards of an air craft carrier so i'd like to hear how you would use the ship as another character so to speak in the sequence
Idealy it would end on the top of the gun emplacement and DD would knock Bullseye off but jump after him and catch him before he hit the floor and stop their momentum by using his billy club grapple to hook onto one of the cannon's

Aircraft Carriers have no cannons. We had two missle launchers and four gatling gun weapon systems. Planes are the Carriers primary weapon. I Imagine that this fight will take place during the ship inport period. Perhaps while fighting on a bridge they fall onto the deck of an Aircraft carrier. The deck is very rough...comparable to sand paper. I imagine costumes being ripped. The weakily get up. The ship's sentrys race to them but Bullseye takes care of them. Bullseye tries to run but DD dives and tackles him. They go thru a hatch(Navy term for Door) and fall to the next bottom deck. Not a fun time. Passageways on carriers are very thin so I imagine a fight like the fight between Jet-Li and the white guy in Unleashed.
Incidently they filmed a few scenes from Pearl Harbor on my ship and I got to meet Ben Affleck.

[Hunter Rider]

Ok, I gotta get this off of my chest. I've been checking out the batman sequel boards, and I consistently see people berating the concept of having Robin in the sequels. It didn't bother me at first (honestly I'm not a Robin fan myself), but the constant, unending attacks on the very worth of the character forced me into coming up with a plausible (I never want to hear the term "realism" used in conjunction with a character who dresses as a giant bat) film origin for the character. I'm not sure if I satisfyied that requirement, but I did my best so here goes:

The third sequel of BATMAN BEGINS (the fourth film of the franchise) should start off a new trilogy that brings in Dick Grayson, but still keeps the focus squarely on Batman. This is done in two ways; first, Dick's story is really a retelling of Bruce's, so we get to watch Batman re-experience his childhood trauma, and second, we see a completely new side to Batman's character i.e., Batman the mentor.

The film begins with a group of thugs holding hostages in a slummy abandoned building. The kidnappers are seen shouting demands and refusing to surrender from the window of the top floor. The police, lead by Commissioner Gordon, have surrounded the building and are about to send in the SWAT team. Just as another officer prepares to give the go-ahead, a large black figure "swooshes" overhead to land on the abandoned rooftop. Gordon looks up to observe the shadowy figure and then turns to the officer, "Forget the SWAT team, we're not gonna need em'... but he's gonna need a few safety nets." The officer remarks "He?" just as two thugs crash through window they were previously shouting out of. They fall several stories until they miraculously come to a bungied stop about ten feet over the surrounding officer's heads. The camera cuts to show us black cables tied around their ankles. Gordon replies, "nevermind" and we cut to the inside of the abandoned building. Batman moves through the shadows to quickly disarm and defeat all the kidnappers in a matter of moments. We can't really see Batman's movements (but this is the only sequence where that occurs), and the battle is over quickly and the hostages are seen escaping during the commotion. While all this is occurring, we cut to a kidnapper hiding out in the bathroom. He is terrified and armed with a shotgun (it's Pulp Fiction inspired, sue me). As Batman dispatches with his comrades and begins tying them up, the last kidnapper burst through the bathroom door and levels his shotgun at Batman's back. In an instant, Batman turns and knocks the muzzle toward the ground. However, the shotgun goes off and blasts a whole through the floor just under Batman's feet. Batman begins his decent through the dilapidated building, crashing through some floors or simply falling through holes already in place. He then pulls out his grappling gun and fires it at the ceiling. The grapple attaches to the ceiling, but the cord catches the edge of a broken floorboard. Batman is swung sidewise just before the cord snaps and dark knight is sent crashing through a second story window. He lands in a back alley, fortunately their are no witnesses around (the police have already moved in to take out the kidnappers). Batman presses a button on his utility belt to summon the Batmobile, and hobbles to safety when it arrives.

I apologize for the excessive details in the above scenario. I needed to describe this scene fully as it is the catalyst for the rest of the film. The rest should be a more breezy plot synopsis.

A few scenes follow where find out that the last kidnapper was captured by the GCPD. We move to the Batcave a few weeks after the incident where Batman is heavily bandaged, but going about his business. On his computer screen, we see the faces of several strong young men (some in police uniform, others in military dress) as well as Commissioner Gordon's ID photo. Alfred enters, "Composing a men of law enforcement calender, are we Master Bruce?". Batman doesn't react to the jibe, but a moment later explains the ID photo's. He tells Alfred that he has come to the realization that his quest for justice could be cut short too easily. After his "reckless stupidity" a few weeks prior, he has decided to line up a replacement should he be struck down in his war on crime. He remarks that Gordon is probably too old, but he is the only one he could trust. He then explains that when he finds a replacement, Alfred is to confront the man (upon Bruce's death), explain the legacy of Batman, and provide him with all the resources necessary to take up the mantle. Alfred takes a moment to absorb what he's just been told, and then quips, "I'm glad you've made preparations for your death Master Bruce, the way you lunge headlong into life threatening situations, I was beginning to think you were a bit irresponsible." Before Alfred leaves, he places an invitation next to Batman. He explains that the Wayne family charity organization has invited the circus to Gotham, and he is expected to attend.

I think we all know what happens next. We get a few scenes with a gangster trying (and failing) to intimidate the circus owner into paying protection money, and Dick's parents falling to their deaths as the result. Bruce witnesses their death's as well as ten-year old Dick's brilliant acrobatic skills and offers to take the boy in after the incident.

I like the way the BTAS episode, "Robin's reckoning part I" handled the origin, so after Batman has taken in Dick, he makes it his personal mission to track down his the Grayson's killers. However, the trail leads him to a larger plot to take over the cities' criminal network by Rupert Thorn (or any other mafioso). That means that there is no super villain in this film. The reason I think that's important is because I want to focus and Bruce and Dick's relationship, and to make this film feel as down to earth as the previous franchise (but the big guns will come in the sequal).

Taking place separately from the main plot, we see Dick accidentally discover the Batcave and confront Batman/Bruce. Bruce explains to Dick that he understands the rage he feels, and can teach him how to channel it. He explains that fighting to prevent others from feeling the pain he felt when his parents were murdered was the only thing that helped him get over their deaths. Then comes the training montage (yay!):

We see Bruce sparing with Dick and teaching him to use various weapons. It turns out that Bruce is not a nice teacher, he's as harsh and unforgiving as Ra's, but Dick is an apt pupil. In one scene, Bruce places a display of throwing knives and shuriken in front of Dick. Bruce then walks to wall about 15 feet away and mounts a target, just as he places it, a throwing knife drives itself into the target. We cut to Dick with several knives in between his fingers, "I grew up at the circus". Another training scene shows Bruce loading, cocking, and firing various handguns and rifles while Dick, blindfolded, shouts off the model and round-per-clip numbers. All through out the training, Bruce admonishes Dick for his lack of speed, and explains that the criminal element won't be half as forgiving as he is (however, the audience catches glimpses of Bruce grinning and his general sense of pride in Dick's abilities).

Eventually Alfred questions Bruce, "I'm glad you're finally spending time with the boy, but instead practical ballistics training, might I suggest... a game of catch?" Bruce then explains that no man could handle the mantle of Batman being thrust upon him so late in life (not to mention the trust issues), a true successor would have to be trained from a young age. As a kindred spirit, and accomplished acrobat, Dick is perfect for the job. He then shows Alfred a begins style adult bodysuit. It has no cape or cowl, just a blue bat stretched across the chest and shoulders that eerily resembles Nightwing's costume design. Alfred breaks from his comedic tone and registers clear disappointment that Bruce has involved another in this life. However, he acknowledges Dick's need for a positive outlet, as well as his inability to stop Bruce under the same circumstances, and admits that Dick may grow to be a better Batman than Bruce ever was.

The film ends with Batman compiling the evidence to take down Thorn's empire, and Dick not yet in costume. The second film in the trilogy show's Robin (now aged 12-15) getting into costume and teaming up with Batman (reluctantly of course) to take down the Riddler. I will tackle this in a later post. However, since the motivation and reasoning behind Robin have already been established, him actually beginning to fight crime should be covered quickly so as not to absorb to much attention in the film.

The third film, with an 18-20 year old Robin could show the relationship deteriorate (again, a small sub-plot), and Dick go off on his own. Naturally, the last scene in the film would show Dick recieving a package from Alfred with the previosly mentioned Nightwing costume in it, and the rest is for another filmmaker, and another franchise.

Excellent stuff:up:
I to have grown weary of ppl bashing the Robin character,he is an essential part of the Batman mythos and is a great character when written well

[Hunter Rider]

Aircraft Carriers have no cannons. We had two missle launchers and four gatling gun weapon systems. Planes are the Carriers primary weapon. I Imagine that this fight will take place during the ship inport period. Perhaps while fighting on a bridge they fall onto the deck of an Aircraft carrier. The deck is very rough...comparable to sand paper. I imagine costumes being ripped. The weakily get up. The ship's sentrys race to them but Bullseye takes care of them. Bullseye tries to run but DD dives and tackles him. They go thru a hatch(Navy term for Door) and fall to the next bottom deck. Not a fun time. Passageways on carriers are very thin so I imagine a fight like the fight between Jet-Li and the white guy in Unleashed.
Incidently they filmed a few scenes from Pearl Harbor on my ship and I got to meet Ben Affleck.

Well in the story i had concieved the carrier was now being used as a tourist attraction and that Bullseye had taken the tourists hostage and challenged DD to come and face him,the rest of the fight could play out as you stated though with the tight restrained combat being an excellent addition:up:
Would it be possible for them to end up battling on top of the missile launchers ? again im just working from memory here with the guns sticking outve a seemingly solid square base on which the 2 men could fight

BTW what was Afflek like ?

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, I like that idea, having an ex-con or long-term crook who's still in prison give his take on the Kingpin and what he's all about. :up:

:wolverine

You know what's sad ?
In the space of one afternoon and a couple of posts last week we have whittled away the ideas that don't work and collaberated on a concept and story that seems very faithfull and at the same time cinematically viable(once a screenwriter got to flesh scenes out)to the character,and yet with all the pro's at Fox they didn't make a movie that was a good representation of the character....It's not that hard IMO:o


EDIT.sorry for the triple post i got carried away:(

[Herr Logan]

Ok, I gotta get this off of my chest. I've been checking out the batman sequel boards, and I consistently see people berating the concept of having Robin in the sequels. It didn't bother me at first (honestly I'm not a Robin fan myself), but the constant, unending attacks on the very worth of the character forced me into coming up with a plausible (I never want to hear the term "realism" used in conjunction with a character who dresses as a giant bat) film origin for the character. I'm not sure if I satisfyied that requirement, but I did my best so here goes:

The third sequel of BATMAN BEGINS (the fourth film of the franchise) should start off a new trilogy that brings in Dick Grayson, but still keeps the focus squarely on Batman. This is done in two ways; first, Dick's story is really a retelling of Bruce's, so we get to watch Batman re-experience his childhood trauma, and second, we see a completely new side to Batman's character i.e., Batman the mentor.

The film begins with a group of thugs holding hostages in a slummy abandoned building. The kidnappers are seen shouting demands and refusing to surrender from the window of the top floor. The police, lead by Commissioner Gordon, have surrounded the building and are about to send in the SWAT team. Just as another officer prepares to give the go-ahead, a large black figure "swooshes" overhead to land on the abandoned rooftop. Gordon looks up to observe the shadowy figure and then turns to the officer, "Forget the SWAT team, we're not gonna need em'... but he's gonna need a few safety nets." The officer remarks "He?" just as two thugs crash through window they were previously shouting out of. They fall several stories until they miraculously come to a bungied stop about ten feet over the surrounding officer's heads. The camera cuts to show us black cables tied around their ankles. Gordon replies, "nevermind" and we cut to the inside of the abandoned building. Batman moves through the shadows to quickly disarm and defeat all the kidnappers in a matter of moments. We can't really see Batman's movements (but this is the only sequence where that occurs), and the battle is over quickly and the hostages are seen escaping during the commotion. While all this is occurring, we cut to a kidnapper hiding out in the bathroom. He is terrified and armed with a shotgun (it's Pulp Fiction inspired, sue me). As Batman dispatches with his comrades and begins tying them up, the last kidnapper burst through the bathroom door and levels his shotgun at Batman's back. In an instant, Batman turns and knocks the muzzle toward the ground. However, the shotgun goes off and blasts a whole through the floor just under Batman's feet. Batman begins his decent through the dilapidated building, crashing through some floors or simply falling through holes already in place. He then pulls out his grappling gun and fires it at the ceiling. The grapple attaches to the ceiling, but the cord catches the edge of a broken floorboard. Batman is swung sidewise just before the cord snaps and dark knight is sent crashing through a second story window. He lands in a back alley, fortunately their are no witnesses around (the police have already moved in to take out the kidnappers). Batman presses a button on his utility belt to summon the Batmobile, and hobbles to safety when it arrives.

I apologize for the excessive details in the above scenario. I needed to describe this scene fully as it is the catalyst for the rest of the film. The rest should be a more breezy plot synopsis.

A few scenes follow where find out that the last kidnapper was captured by the GCPD. We move to the Batcave a few weeks after the incident where Batman is heavily bandaged, but going about his business. On his computer screen, we see the faces of several strong young men (some in police uniform, others in military dress) as well as Commissioner Gordon's ID photo. Alfred enters, "Composing a men of law enforcement calender, are we Master Bruce?". Batman doesn't react to the jibe, but a moment later explains the ID photo's. He tells Alfred that he has come to the realization that his quest for justice could be cut short too easily. After his "reckless stupidity" a few weeks prior, he has decided to line up a replacement should he be struck down in his war on crime. He remarks that Gordon is probably too old, but he is the only one he could trust. He then explains that when he finds a replacement, Alfred is to confront the man (upon Bruce's death), explain the legacy of Batman, and provide him with all the resources necessary to take up the mantle. Alfred takes a moment to absorb what he's just been told, and then quips, "I'm glad you've made preparations for your death Master Bruce, the way you lunge headlong into life threatening situations, I was beginning to think you were a bit irresponsible." Before Alfred leaves, he places an invitation next to Batman. He explains that the Wayne family charity organization has invited the circus to Gotham, and he is expected to attend.

I think we all know what happens next. We get a few scenes with a gangster trying (and failing) to intimidate the circus owner into paying protection money, and Dick's parents falling to their deaths as the result. Bruce witnesses their death's as well as ten-year old Dick's brilliant acrobatic skills and offers to take the boy in after the incident.

I like the way the BTAS episode, "Robin's reckoning part I" handled the origin, so after Batman has taken in Dick, he makes it his personal mission to track down his the Grayson's killers. However, the trail leads him to a larger plot to take over the cities' criminal network by Rupert Thorn (or any other mafioso). That means that there is no super villain in this film. The reason I think that's important is because I want to focus and Bruce and Dick's relationship, and to make this film feel as down to earth as the previous franchise (but the big guns will come in the sequal).

Taking place separately from the main plot, we see Dick accidentally discover the Batcave and confront Batman/Bruce. Bruce explains to Dick that he understands the rage he feels, and can teach him how to channel it. He explains that fighting to prevent others from feeling the pain he felt when his parents were murdered was the only thing that helped him get over their deaths. Then comes the training montage (yay!):

We see Bruce sparing with Dick and teaching him to use various weapons. It turns out that Bruce is not a nice teacher, he's as harsh and unforgiving as Ra's, but Dick is an apt pupil. In one scene, Bruce places a display of throwing knives and shuriken in front of Dick. Bruce then walks to wall about 15 feet away and mounts a target, just as he places it, a throwing knife drives itself into the target. We cut to Dick with several knives in between his fingers, "I grew up at the circus". Another training scene shows Bruce loading, cocking, and firing various handguns and rifles while Dick, blindfolded, shouts off the model and round-per-clip numbers. All through out the training, Bruce admonishes Dick for his lack of speed, and explains that the criminal element won't be half as forgiving as he is (however, the audience catches glimpses of Bruce grinning and his general sense of pride in Dick's abilities).

Eventually Alfred questions Bruce, "I'm glad you're finally spending time with the boy, but instead practical ballistics training, might I suggest... a game of catch?" Bruce then explains that no man could handle the mantle of Batman being thrust upon him so late in life (not to mention the trust issues), a true successor would have to be trained from a young age. As a kindred spirit, and accomplished acrobat, Dick is perfect for the job. He then shows Alfred a begins style adult bodysuit. It has no cape or cowl, just a blue bat stretched across the chest and shoulders that eerily resembles Nightwing's costume design. Alfred breaks from his comedic tone and registers clear disappointment that Bruce has involved another in this life. However, he acknowledges Dick's need for a positive outlet, as well as his inability to stop Bruce under the same circumstances, and admits that Dick may grow to be a better Batman than Bruce ever was.

The film ends with Batman compiling the evidence to take down Thorn's empire, and Dick not yet in costume. The second film in the trilogy show's Robin (now aged 12-15) getting into costume and teaming up with Batman (reluctantly of course) to take down the Riddler. I will tackle this in a later post. However, since the motivation and reasoning behind Robin have already been established, him actually beginning to fight crime should be covered quickly so as not to absorb to much attention in the film.

The third film, with an 18-20 year old Robin could show the relationship deteriorate (again, a small sub-plot), and Dick go off on his own. Naturally, the last scene in the film would show Dick recieving a package from Alfred with the previosly mentioned Nightwing costume in it, and the rest is for another filmmaker, and another franchise.

These are some excellent ideas, kamme-sennin! :up:

I especially like the way you set up Batman doubting his longevity and taking in Dick Grayson, the training montage and the disagreement between Alfred and Bruce.
Personally, I'm not fond of the idea of Dick going straight into being Nightwing or being absent from field work, and I would definitely have him ready for battle before the climax of the movie in a suitably armored but very flexible dark green and crimson costume. I'd have him in costume by the age of 14 at the very latest.
I'd also have at least one supervillain in there somewhere, even if it was a lesser member of the rogues gallery.

That's just my personal take on it. They're good ideas, man. Keep posting.

:wolverine

[Anla'shok]

*still weeping in out of sheer joy*

What can I say about any of what you've presented here except, I agree (and all that geekish praise I wrote earlier)! You've put into words what I have always believed yet could not express nearly as well as you have. I don't feel I have anything really to add thus far. Any related issues to bring up may or may not be addressed in a later segment of "Q and A with Anla'shok," or brought up by another contributor here. I'd like to give as much room for others' comments as possible (I'm talking about me holding, back... you can post as much as you damn well please), since I already have what must be the annoying habit of tossing out a bulky and tangent-filled post whenever I have the urge.

Thanks again, Anla'shok. Keep up the excellent work. :up:

:wolverine


Your support, as always, is appreciated Herr Logan. I have read your Spider-Man synopses and they sound leaps and bounds more intriguing than what has already been released. I, am but a cursory fan of the web slinger, so when I do decide to plunk down cold hard cash to watch him on screen I would like to think I was receiving an accurate potrayal. There's nothing more irritating than finding out you've been duped with a Doppelganger! Now that I think about it, I think it would be interesting to
explore the short and long-term ramifications of introducing new audiences to false representations of actual characters, if no one beats me to it that is.
I do not get to post as often as I would like, so it may be awhile before a follow-up, but it will happen. I'm thinking of posting some sketches to supplement my wacky diatribes next time.
This has been an excellent thread, It is exhilarating to know that so many critical posters are usually individuals who see beyond the superficial coating of a tale. Who actually care about underlying structure supporting an event. Can we truly be so few in number worlwide? One shudders at the thought, till then, battle on.

[Anla'shok]

Ok, I gotta get this off of my chest. I've been checking out the batman sequel boards, and I consistently see people berating the concept of having Robin in the sequels. It didn't bother me at first (honestly I'm not a Robin fan myself), but the constant, unending attacks on the very worth of the character forced me into coming up with a plausible (I never want to hear the term "realism" used in conjunction with a character who dresses as a giant bat) film origin for the character. I'm not sure if I satisfyied that requirement, but I did my best so here goes:

The third sequel of BATMAN BEGINS (the fourth film of the franchise) should start off a new trilogy that brings in Dick Grayson, but still keeps the focus squarely on Batman. This is done in two ways; first, Dick's story is really a retelling of Bruce's, so we get to watch Batman re-experience his childhood trauma, and second, we see a completely new side to Batman's character i.e., Batman the mentor.

The film begins with a group of thugs holding hostages in a slummy abandoned building. The kidnappers are seen shouting demands and refusing to surrender from the window of the top floor. The police, lead by Commissioner Gordon, have surrounded the building and are about to send in the SWAT team. Just as another officer prepares to give the go-ahead, a large black figure "swooshes" overhead to land on the abandoned rooftop. Gordon looks up to observe the shadowy figure and then turns to the officer, "Forget the SWAT team, we're not gonna need em'... but he's gonna need a few safety nets." The officer remarks "He?" just as two thugs crash through window they were previously shouting out of. They fall several stories until they miraculously come to a bungied stop about ten feet over the surrounding officer's heads. The camera cuts to show us black cables tied around their ankles. Gordon replies, "nevermind" and we cut to the inside of the abandoned building. Batman moves through the shadows to quickly disarm and defeat all the kidnappers in a matter of moments. We can't really see Batman's movements (but this is the only sequence where that occurs), and the battle is over quickly and the hostages are seen escaping during the commotion. While all this is occurring, we cut to a kidnapper hiding out in the bathroom. He is terrified and armed with a shotgun (it's Pulp Fiction inspired, sue me). As Batman dispatches with his comrades and begins tying them up, the last kidnapper burst through the bathroom door and levels his shotgun at Batman's back. In an instant, Batman turns and knocks the muzzle toward the ground. However, the shotgun goes off and blasts a whole through the floor just under Batman's feet. Batman begins his decent through the dilapidated building, crashing through some floors or simply falling through holes already in place. He then pulls out his grappling gun and fires it at the ceiling. The grapple attaches to the ceiling, but the cord catches the edge of a broken floorboard. Batman is swung sidewise just before the cord snaps and dark knight is sent crashing through a second story window. He lands in a back alley, fortunately their are no witnesses around (the police have already moved in to take out the kidnappers). Batman presses a button on his utility belt to summon the Batmobile, and hobbles to safety when it arrives.

I apologize for the excessive details in the above scenario. I needed to describe this scene fully as it is the catalyst for the rest of the film. The rest should be a more breezy plot synopsis.

A few scenes follow where find out that the last kidnapper was captured by the GCPD. We move to the Batcave a few weeks after the incident where Batman is heavily bandaged, but going about his business. On his computer screen, we see the faces of several strong young men (some in police uniform, others in military dress) as well as Commissioner Gordon's ID photo. Alfred enters, "Composing a men of law enforcement calender, are we Master Bruce?". Batman doesn't react to the jibe, but a moment later explains the ID photo's. He tells Alfred that he has come to the realization that his quest for justice could be cut short too easily. After his "reckless stupidity" a few weeks prior, he has decided to line up a replacement should he be struck down in his war on crime. He remarks that Gordon is probably too old, but he is the only one he could trust. He then explains that when he finds a replacement, Alfred is to confront the man (upon Bruce's death), explain the legacy of Batman, and provide him with all the resources necessary to take up the mantle. Alfred takes a moment to absorb what he's just been told, and then quips, "I'm glad you've made preparations for your death Master Bruce, the way you lunge headlong into life threatening situations, I was beginning to think you were a bit irresponsible." Before Alfred leaves, he places an invitation next to Batman. He explains that the Wayne family charity organization has invited the circus to Gotham, and he is expected to attend.

I think we all know what happens next. We get a few scenes with a gangster trying (and failing) to intimidate the circus owner into paying protection money, and Dick's parents falling to their deaths as the result. Bruce witnesses their death's as well as ten-year old Dick's brilliant acrobatic skills and offers to take the boy in after the incident.

I like the way the BTAS episode, "Robin's reckoning part I" handled the origin, so after Batman has taken in Dick, he makes it his personal mission to track down his the Grayson's killers. However, the trail leads him to a larger plot to take over the cities' criminal network by Rupert Thorn (or any other mafioso). That means that there is no super villain in this film. The reason I think that's important is because I want to focus and Bruce and Dick's relationship, and to make this film feel as down to earth as the previous franchise (but the big guns will come in the sequal).

Taking place separately from the main plot, we see Dick accidentally discover the Batcave and confront Batman/Bruce. Bruce explains to Dick that he understands the rage he feels, and can teach him how to channel it. He explains that fighting to prevent others from feeling the pain he felt when his parents were murdered was the only thing that helped him get over their deaths. Then comes the training montage (yay!):

We see Bruce sparing with Dick and teaching him to use various weapons. It turns out that Bruce is not a nice teacher, he's as harsh and unforgiving as Ra's, but Dick is an apt pupil. In one scene, Bruce places a display of throwing knives and shuriken in front of Dick. Bruce then walks to wall about 15 feet away and mounts a target, just as he places it, a throwing knife drives itself into the target. We cut to Dick with several knives in between his fingers, "I grew up at the circus". Another training scene shows Bruce loading, cocking, and firing various handguns and rifles while Dick, blindfolded, shouts off the model and round-per-clip numbers. All through out the training, Bruce admonishes Dick for his lack of speed, and explains that the criminal element won't be half as forgiving as he is (however, the audience catches glimpses of Bruce grinning and his general sense of pride in Dick's abilities).

Eventually Alfred questions Bruce, "I'm glad you're finally spending time with the boy, but instead practical ballistics training, might I suggest... a game of catch?" Bruce then explains that no man could handle the mantle of Batman being thrust upon him so late in life (not to mention the trust issues), a true successor would have to be trained from a young age. As a kindred spirit, and accomplished acrobat, Dick is perfect for the job. He then shows Alfred a begins style adult bodysuit. It has no cape or cowl, just a blue bat stretched across the chest and shoulders that eerily resembles Nightwing's costume design. Alfred breaks from his comedic tone and registers clear disappointment that Bruce has involved another in this life. However, he acknowledges Dick's need for a positive outlet, as well as his inability to stop Bruce under the same circumstances, and admits that Dick may grow to be a better Batman than Bruce ever was.

The film ends with Batman compiling the evidence to take down Thorn's empire, and Dick not yet in costume. The second film in the trilogy show's Robin (now aged 12-15) getting into costume and teaming up with Batman (reluctantly of course) to take down the Riddler. I will tackle this in a later post. However, since the motivation and reasoning behind Robin have already been established, him actually beginning to fight crime should be covered quickly so as not to absorb to much attention in the film.

The third film, with an 18-20 year old Robin could show the relationship deteriorate (again, a small sub-plot), and Dick go off on his own. Naturally, the last scene in the film would show Dick recieving a package from Alfred with the previosly mentioned Nightwing costume in it, and the rest is for another filmmaker, and another franchise.



Before I depart, I find the whole anti-robin kick highly disturbing, there are so many ways to destroy such arguments it is barely even worth addressing, just...disgusting.

This is as good a way as any to introduce the character. Good stuff.

[roach]

Well in the story i had concieved the carrier was now being used as a tourist attraction and that Bullseye had taken the tourists hostage and challenged DD to come and face him,the rest of the fight could play out as you stated though with the tight restrained combat being an excellent addition:up:
Would it be possible for them to end up battling on top of the missile launchers ? again im just working from memory here with the guns sticking outve a seemingly solid square base on which the 2 men could fight

BTW what was Afflek like ?


Im not sure if there is one in NYC.
He was pretty cool. He walked around meeting people. Ours were the scenes when the bomber took off from the aircraft carrier....

[Herr Logan]

You know what's sad ?
In the space of one afternoon and a couple of posts last week we have whittled away the ideas that don't work and collaberated on a concept and story that seems very faithfull and at the same time cinematically viable(once a screenwriter got to flesh scenes out)to the character,and yet with all the pro's at Fox they didn't make a movie that was a good representation of the character....It's not that hard IMO:o


EDIT.sorry for the triple post i got carried away:(

Yeah, seriously. And so many people on these boards are so defeatist in their attitudes about making quality movies and act like it's impossible. I don't consider myself to have an extremely versatile imagination, but I can't imagine what it would be like to be so limited in scope like that. It would be hard work to make truly great adaptations of these character, but it's hard work to make crappy movies, too. Cowardice is a huge factor in what limits the possibilities ("...but that isn't realistic, and everybody in the audience but the fanboys will want to see a sci-fi/fantasy adventure movie that's realistic... it's too big a risk!", as well as arrogance ("You know, I could just as easily make a Spider-Man movie that's funny, sharp and entertaining all the way through, but I've been having this massive craving for maudlin, minimalistic, shallow teen romance drama lately, so I think I'll indulge myself"). It's disgusting, just how dishonest people are with regard to this issue. Why is there even any question as to whether this stuff could be done or not? Random fans online could write a decent screenplay, so why not professionals?

*achem*

Again, great ideas, Hunter. Hope to hear more from you. :up:

:wolverine

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, seriously. And so many people on these boards are so defeatist in their attitudes about making quality movies and act like it's impossible. I don't consider myself to have an extremely versatile imagination, but I can't imagine what it would be like to be so limited in scope like that. It would be hard work to make truly great adaptations of these character, but it's hard work to make crappy movies, too. Cowardice is a huge factor in what limits the possibilities ("...but that isn't realistic, and everybody in the audience but the fanboys will want to see a sci-fi/fantasy adventure movie that's realistic... it's too big a risk!", as well as arrogance ("You know, I could just as easily make a Spider-Man movie that's funny, sharp and entertaining all the way through, but I've been having this massive craving for maudlin, minimalistic, shallow teen romance drama lately, so I think I'll indulge myself"). It's disgusting, just how dishonest people are with regard to this issue. Why is there even any question as to whether this stuff could be done or not? Random fans online could write a decent screenplay, so why not professionals?

*achem*

Again, great ideas, Hunter. Hope to hear more from you. :up:

:wolverine

I agree a director needs to focus his vision on the source he is adapting from not from his own personal feelings at the time,it's different if it's an original movie then the director can do as he wished but when adapting paying a reticent amount of care and respect to the original works should be mandatory
I agree completely on the cowardice part ,with the attitudes you mention great action adventure movies such as the indiana jones and SW(OT) would never have been made...and gee message to fox ,look how well those movies did when they didn't worry about "realism" and all the other buzz words and just made awesome movies,they were both financially successfull and criticly have stood the test of time



*apologies for the rant,back to topic:up:

[Joker]

If Doc Ock was to make a return in a sequal I would have him have a secret lair beneath long island sound.

There would be a group of highly trained mercenaries attacking New York with a spate of scientific thefts.All that is known is that they are working for someone known simply as 'The Master Planner'.

Spider-Man manages to track them down somehow to the secret entrance to the Master Planner lair.What compels Spider-Man to track them down is they have stolen something that is very dangerous.A high grade weapon,or maybe everything they have been stealing are items that can be used to build a very powerful weapon.

It is this weapon that Doc Ock is planning to use for an extortion/city wide panic/mass murder scheme he has in mind.

Of course when Spider-Man discovers the Master Planner lair Ock reveals himself as the Master Planner in a dramatic fashion and they have a tremendous battle in Ock's lair which culminates in the destruction of the lair and a ton of metal and rubble falls on Spider-Man trapping him,while the lair begins to flood.

Meanwhile Doc Ock and his men have managed to escape with the deadly weapon he has created.Spider-Man is buried under the rubble and has flashes of Uncle Ben and Aunt May.He feels a surge of will and strength and manages to lift the rubble off him.

Spider-Man then swims out and escapes.He then tracks down Ock who has put his extortion scheme into action.And of course Ock being Ock as soon as he gets paid he double crosses them and plans to destroy the city anyway until Spider-Man shows up and battles him and of course stops him.

The finer details would have to be worked out but that's the basic outline to the story I would like for the return of Doc Ock :)

[kame-sennin]

These are some excellent ideas, kamme-sennin! :up:

I especially like the way you set up Batman doubting his longevity and taking in Dick Grayson, the training montage and the disagreement between Alfred and Bruce.

Thanks.

Personally, I'm not fond of the idea of Dick going straight into being Nightwing

Neither am I, I threw the pre-costume in as a bone to Nightwing fans (assuming that I am the director of the yet un-made film) and the part about him leaving at the end of the third film was just to tie up the loose ends. If I were actually incharge of the franchise for three films, I would leave the possibility for Nightwing or Robin open to the filmmaker that succeeds me.

or being absent from field work, and I would definitely have him ready for battle before the climax of the movie in a suitably armored but very flexible dark green and crimson costume. I'd have him in costume by the age of 14 at the very latest.

I debated whether or not to have him show up in the climax, but I decided that his story be a subplot in the first film (so that Batman could be the clear focus). However, Robin will be in the field and in costume in the second film, which I will be doing a write up of soon.

I'd also have at least one supervillain in there somewhere, even if it was a lesser member of the rogues gallery.

That's just my personal take on it. They're good ideas, man. Keep posting.

:wolverine

That's probably a good idea, I wanted to give Batman a solid mafia film that would be 50% detective work and 50% thug beating. I was actually thinking about using the Riddler as a side character who works as a planner for Thorne in the first film to prime his appearance in the second film. But, I appreciate the criticism anyway :up:

This is as good a way as any to introduce the character. Good stuff.

Thanks a lot. I tend to leave out a lot of details when I get excited about an idea, for instance, the synopsis I posted was about introducing Dick Grayson, but not Robin. The film wouldn't be advertised as a Batman and Robin film, just as a sequel to Begins that sees Batman face off against the mob (and possibly the Riddler). That way, "realism" loving Nolanites as well the media wouldn't assume the second trilogy was diving into camp. Once they are introduced to Dick in a plausible manor, they will be much more willing and eager to see Robin introduced.

[Herr Logan]

If Doc Ock was to make a return in a sequal I would have him have a secret lair beneath long island sound.

There would be a group of highly trained mercenaries attacking New York with a spate of scientific thefts.All that is known is that they are working for someone known simply as 'The Master Planner'.

Spider-Man manages to track them down somehow to the secret entrance to the Master Planner lair.What compels Spider-Man to track them down is they have stolen something that is very dangerous.A high grade weapon,or maybe everything they have been stealing are items that can be used to build a very powerful weapon.

It is this weapon that Doc Ock is planning to use for an extortion/city wide panic/mass murder scheme he has in mind.

Of course when Spider-Man discovers the Master Planner lair Ock reveals himself as the Master Planner in a dramatic fashion and they have a tremendous battle in Ock's lair which culminates in the destruction of the lair and a ton of metal and rubble falls on Spider-Man trapping him,while the lair begins to flood.

Meanwhile Doc Ock and his men have managed to escape with the deadly weapon he has created.Spider-Man is buried under the rubble and has flashes of Uncle Ben and Aunt May.He feels a surge of will and strength and manages to lift the rubble off him.

Spider-Man then swims out and escapes.He then tracks down Ock who has put his extortion scheme into action.And of course Ock being Ock as soon as he gets paid he double crosses them and plans to destroy the city anyway until Spider-Man shows up and battles him and of course stops him.

The finer details would have to be worked out but that's the basic outline to the story I would like for the return of Doc Ock :)

Good to hear from you again, Ock. :up:

So basically that's the Master Planner story arc, minus the Aunt May/radiation poisoning plot. Would you want that element excluded or were you just explaining the Ock side of the story?

Either way, I would most definitely bring Doc Ock back for a sequel. The first four movies would basically go Octavius, Osborn, Octavius, Osborn-- at least in terms of the main villains. There would still be other villains but in less emotionally invested capacities. Dr. Octopus and the Green Goblin would both return to wreak havoc on Peter Parker's life. Octavius is such an egotistical and destructive bastard that he endangers the lives of two of Peter's loved ones without even intending to, and Osborn is such a sadistic psychopath that he targets Peter's loved ones specifically. They also have different reasons for being inactive for one movie each-- not absent, though, as they'll have scenes (especially Osborn), but they won't be active villains-- with Ock being incarcerated in a super-maximum security prison and the Green Goblin a repressed alternate personality trapped within Norman Osborn's mind.

For me, ideally I'd have all of these elements tied into the third movie's story:
1) Otto Octavius, still physically bonded to his cybernetic, A.I. assisted unbreakable, fully-charged, self-powered, multifunctional tentacles breaks out of the Vault and makes his way from Colorado back to New York.
This may be shown in a flashback rather than chronologically in order, if we want to have the whole "So the Master Planner was actually Doc Ock all along!" effect, but it has to be shown. Brian Singer's good-but-not-quite-good-enough version of Magneto got a damn cool jail-break scene, and Magneto has never even been in prison against his will in the comics, so the ideal movie version of Doctor Octopus (a quite frequent "guest" of the government) damn well deserves one as well. The biggest issue with that would be the question of why it wasn't all over the news, how the most dangerous solitary criminal in history (even more so than the Green Goblin, since the the hardware Osborn uses wouldn't be as durable as Octavius' machine in my ideal movie series) escaped a super-max prison and is now on the loose, but there is a precedent in the comics for this happening as well. When Venom broke out of the Vault and Mary Jane told Peter she saw the bastard swinging overhead, Peter called them (either the local police or the Vault itself) and asked why New York didn't get the news, and they said they didn't want to induce public panic. Well, there ya go.

2) A gang of highly-trained, high-quality mercenaries is hired by an individual codenamed Master Planner who remains in the shadows and communicates with his hirelings only through internet messages (can't you just see the e-mail address and/or instant messenger screenname "MasterPlanner"?) and through the telephone (He would use a voice-scrambler over the phone, of course. This way, not only might viewers who don't know the Master Planner story actually be surprised when Dr. Octopus is discovered, but it means that the movie can actually present the original story from the comics more or less literally as it was in the comics. In comics, they'll often show word bubbles from mysterious figures that aren't actually shown to the reader. With a voice modifier, the audience can actually hear the character speak without knowing who it is. Awesome, huh?) The Master Planner's mercenaries wear high-tech uniforms complete with gas masks that can switch to acting as rebreathers for underwater diving. They steal various high-tech scientific equipment for a purpose that isn't revealed until later (in the Master Planner story arc, I don't think Ock's plan was actually revealed at all... I think he just needed the new isotope for an unknown purpose and all the reader knew is that Peter needed it to cure Aunt May of her radiation poisoning). Spider-Man catches them before or after one of their thefts and gets into it with them. They elude him.

3) Aunt May needs an emergency blood transfusion and gets one, with Peter's blood. Because it was an emergency, Peter doesn't get a chance to consider what effect his tainted blood would have on his aunt. He may not even consider it until she falls ill with radiation poisoning, or some other kind of blood poisoning. But that's what happens, and the doctors don't know how to cure her.
I don't know how I would make it work like in the comics, where Dr. Curt Connors was the one Spider-Man approached for help. Because Connors had already turned himself into the Lizard and Spider-Man cured him by that issue, Connors was now studying/practicing more savory and traditional sciences again and he owed Spider-Man big time. In the series I've been imagining, the Lizard isn't created until at least after the third movie, so Curt Connors would still be obsessed with reptile DNA and mutagenic compounds, trying to grow his arm back and revolutionize human recovery, and he wouldn't owe Spider-Man or Peter Parker any favors at this point. Hell, he might not even be in New York at this point. Anyway, that leaves either an unresolved way to match the comics’ version of events in the movie or perhaps this idea (which came to me just now, actually):
The hospital needs to have a special new drug shipped in (that is risky in and of itself and/or requires a risky procedure in order to implement it) that will take at least a day to receive, and Peter-- May's only living relative-- has to authorize the procedure. For some reason, Peter can't make an official authorization until the day the drug is brought in (either he can’t decide until the last minute -- which would be just plain stupid and something more appropriate for Raimi’s franchise, where Peter’s most prominent quality is his inability to make a God damn decision-- or because the legal documents take time to put together, or something like that... I don't know, I've been watching "House" and apparently all kinds of legal and technical ***** can go wrong in hospitals… maybe Brian Singer would be willing to lend us a consultant from that show). So now Peter, just like in the comics, can't stand waiting around the hospital while May lays dying with no way to help it until the next day, so he goes out to distract his tortured mind with some slinging of webs and saving of lives. By chance (or is it fate?), he runs across the Master Planner's men again and follows them to their lair. There he meets the man himself, who turns out to be Dr. Octopus. They fight, destroy a lot of expensive and heavy stuff, and the structure begins to collapse and flood. Doc Ock escapes, and Spider-Man is left trapped under tons of wreckage, and in this scenario, instead of needing to reach the isotope to bring to May in time, he needs to make sure he doesn't pass out and lose all hope of freeing himself so he can sign those documents at the hospital and authorize May's procedure in time. So he rises to the challenge and gets himself out from under tons of debris, only to be attacked by Ock's men on the way out of the flooding base. He’s had just about enough of this tomfoolery and kicks all of their asses, ties them up and calls the police once he gets outside. He gets photos of the Master Planner's gang being rounded up by the cops and taken into custody (he has the time to do this because he's been told that the drug and/or documents will arrive at the hospital around a certain time), which should help pay the medical bills. He gets to the hospital looking like he spent the night in a blender and does what needs doing. Aunt May lives. He's saved his surrogate mother. Hooray for Spider-Man! He demands top dollar from Jameson for the photos he took, or else he’s selling to the Daily Globe (the competition, where Eddie Brock works) or whoever the highest bidder is.

4) Doc Ock is still running around without supervision, and Spider-Man knows he's going to run into him again, and he'd better damn well be ready. He creates a computer virus (now keep in mind, it would be extremely difficult to not only create a program able to override the safeguards in the computer Doc Ock's harness, and also to transmit it when the computer is heavily shielded) or some kind of neutralizing agent that he thinks will make Doc Ock's tentacles malfunction. I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination (well, social science, perhaps, but I know next to nothing about computers, physics or chemistry), so I don't know how it would work. What I do know is that I want Ock's harness to have a computer that is practically impenetrable so he can retain his power while incarcerated, and I want Spider-Man to deliberately make it malfunction during a fight. Anyway, they fight on rooftops in a spectacular showdown, and when Spidey uses his secret weapon on Ock's machine, the tentacles go out of control instead of shutting down or merely converging on the wearer (it would be great for Spidey if the tentacles simply wrapped themselves around Octavius and stayed there until he could be taken into custody), and they knock a chimney out onto the street. A young child is about to be crushed, but Captain George Stacy-- decorated police officer, father to Gwen, friend to J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Roberton, and friend to both Peter Parker and Spider-Man-- pushes the youngster out of the way, being crushed himself. Spider-Man lands a solid headshot on Octavius that puts him down for the count, throws a huge, sticky web-net on him so he can be taken back into custody and goes down to see to Captain Stacy, and the dying man asks to be taken out of earshot of the gathered crowd (which is being pushed back by the police throughout the battle) or simply whispers his dying words to Spider-Man. He tells Peter (as in, he says his name) to take care of Gwen and that he's proud of him. Spider-Man has saved his surrogate mother and lost a father figure, both through his heroic actions. Gwen is devastated and blames Spider-Man for her father’s death, along with Jameson (big surprise), half the NYPD and a good chunk of the public.

Anyway, that's just how I would set it up. I was wondering if you'd have at least had the dying Aunt May aspect included in the Master Planner arc, and what you think of adding George Stacy's death and some of the details I threw in.

:wolverine

[Guason]

We`ve already had more in the past, Batman Returns anyone?

[Herr Logan]

We`ve already had more in the past, Batman Returns anyone?

What does that mean?

:wolverine

[Cullen]

While I'd like to begin with a witty rejoiner, one filled with good natured humor, I'm not up to it right now. No reason for it - I feel pretty cheerful for a change - it's just that I've gone to the humor creek and found a big ole dam there.

Such is life.
Well get on it, man! Get help while you you're still-- I mean, while we're still young!!Kids these days. :rolleyes:


Damn right, it would. I have to keep the Vulture's screen time limited due to all the awesome Parker/Spidey/Ock content I want to cram into a long (at least 2.5 hours) but still all-too-short running time. Keep in mind, I want to maximize the use of all the important supporting characters like Aunt May, J. Jonah Jameson, Joe Robertson, Betty Brant, Flash Thompson and Liz Allen. My vague estimate for how long the Vulture should be onscreen is ten minutes, but that's not set in stone (or in script, fo that matter... this is all just vague imagining that will hopefully become more and more concrete, even if it won't turn into a marketable product of any kind). I currently see the Vulture as fulfilling several important purposes for the big picture in just those few minutes. What would be ideal is if the actual execution could be done in such a way as to blow away the audience with the action and acting/dialogue and still leave them ravenously hungry for more. I don't see the Vulture coming back for another round in the first movie, and I think I'd rather not have him show up as the Vulture in the same movie as the Green Goblin (don't want them skies too crowded). While I have just a few reservations about the Vulture appearing in the same movie where Dr. Octopus comes back , I do think it would be great if he came back in movie #3. Again, if he shows up here, he serves more purposes than just being a great visual/action villain (where he could do the whole Bugle building fight with Spidey) and an excuse for Spidey to let loose with the quips (which would never be in short supply in this movie series). I just thought about how he could collaborate with Herman Schultz-- a recidivist safe-cracker with a gift for invention to rival that of Adrian Toomes-- which would set up the Shocker as an action villain for a future movie. The other thing I was thinking of was having Spider-Man see the Vulture gliding in the distance and immediately feel ill at the thought that the Green Goblin has regained the memories (both of how much of a badass he is and of Spider-Man's secret identity) he lost in movie #2 and is back in action. Oh, wait, it's the Vulture (which is a relief because he won't have to worry about Toomes stalking his loved ones, and to be honest, the Vulture is less dangerous than the Green Goblin as a villain), now meaner and more formidable than ever.While I like the ideas expressed here and really have nothing to add to them, I do think they'd work better in an animated series rather than a...

What's that? I'm beating a dead horse, now? Okay, okay.

Let me just add that I didn't see how anyone could make Lord of the Rings as a live action film, and yet there it is, sitting on top of my DVD cabinet. Being wrong once means I could easily be wrong again.

My idea for revamping the Vulture's costume was what I thought would be a reasonable concession to the "realism" junkie crowd. To be honest, I would approve of a less slightly more muted appearance of a bird of prey, with more of the technical aspect of the suit (not all, just some) made more obvious, but I wouldn't. The suit should look somewhat armored, but not too heavily. I don't think I want to make the suit an official strength-enhancing exoskeleton, but I do want Toomes to be a very strong septugenarian while he wears it. There should definitely be gauntlets on his hands, preferably with claw-like extensions. The suit color should be dark green almost all over. The goggles are necessary, for obvious reasons, and I did want to make them binocular-type instruments just so those damn reality-junkies wouldn't question why the Vulture was able to spot his prey from so very far away, and I thought a crash helmet would be appropriate, especially considering that one of the men who called himself "Vulture" in the comics saw fit to wear one. Actually, my favorite Vulture story of all time is when the real vulture broke that punk (Blackie Drago) out of prison, gave him a set of wings and then proceded to beat the living crap out of him in front of God and everybody, just to prove who the real Vulture really was. Anyway, the only other main concern with the "realism" issue is to make sure that whatever he wears around his neck (that feathery/furry collar of his) extends up far enough that it offers support and helps keep him from snapping his own neck while flying. I want it to look as close as possible to the original while making the stylish aspects into functional ones as well.

What did you have in mind when you said you wanted it to look like Ditko's design? Did you have any specific thoughts as to what the material would be made of or what the purpose of the vertical-line pattern would signify? Speak, damn you! I want your ideas!Bear in mind I was speaking of how I would handle the Vulture. Your way is, no doubt, the wiser way to go.

HOWEVER, in my years of watching Spider-man, I don't think I've ever seen the Vulture as depicted by Ditko (If he appeared in the 90's series, he did so after I gave the show up as a lost cause.) It would be something I would dearly love to see. Orbson needed a costume to be the Green Goblin; Octavius needed his robotic arms to be Doc Ock. Toomes was probably called the Vulture even before he went the route of Daedalus. He looks like a Vulture, even more so in his original costume.

Pay me no heed. Just the ravings of a dangerous old man. Or a middle age man who feels OLD. Whichever I am. I ferget.

Do you mean you would want Ock to appear in the second film after already being the main villain in the first, or to show up briefly in the second for the first time and then have a stronger presence in the fourth?Again, I was refering to what I would do for my movies (stupid brain; making things unclear for others). HOWEVER, yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Nothing major, mind you. A mention, an appearance at a trial, something like that. It would give your movies a bit of a connection.

I'm assuming that when you say "kill him at least once, then bring him back..." you mean have him disappear in an explosion or collapsing building or whatever, with no body being found.
I thought about going that route, and I would like that to be an option for the third movie, but I'm really in love with the possibilities inherent in having him taken into custody and imprisoned at the end of the first movie. You could do it in the second film, saying police believed that he was killed in an escape attempt (Not even necessarily his escape attempt.)

But all I was really saying (assuming I remember what I was thinking at the time, which isn't as easy as it sounds) is that you shouldn't let a little thing like DEATH keep a character from returning. Hasn't hurt the comics that much...

(I seem to recall Raimi saying that Doc Ock wasn't dead at the end of the second movie. Whatever that's worth)

Venom's involvement in the final movie would play out in tune with his first appearances. I would definitely keep the Lethal Protector aspect in that I'd have it made clear that he [i]thinks he's a hero and actually does save a few people from other criminals, but it would also be clear that he's a deluded hypocrite. Venom's vision of himself, his actual heroic deeds and the hypocrisy of it all are what make him interesting to me on a psychological level. I think he'd make a good movie villain if done properly.You're probably right. And as a great number of fans love the character, his inclusion would be the right thing to do.

In this series, Mary Jane would make a brief cameo in the first movie but wouldn't meet peter.Brief cameo for MJ. My kind of movie. :up: :D
She'd meet Peter in the second movie (where he's in college and struggling to fit in with Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy and his old nemesis Flash Thompson) and they'd be instantly attracted to each other. Due to her being far from Peter's type at the time, Peter ends up dating Gwen instead and they fall in love by the end of the second film. Mary Jane ends up dating Harry Osborn.
Things remain pretty much the same (this is discounting all the little details and exchanges these college-age kids have than don't involve romantic attachments and brushes with villainy) throughout the third movie with MJ, but Gwen is devastated by the death of her father. Things get strained between Gwen and Peter toward the end of the third one and in the fourth one, Gwen is killed and Mary Jane is there to console Peter (and also Harry, whose father was found impaled and nearly naked in one of his warehouses).
In the fifth movie, Peter and Mary Jane are falling in love (don't worry, it wouldn't be anything as sappy as Sam Raimi's movies). By the beginning of the sixth movie, Peter is in possession of the alien symbiote and has either revealed his secret to Mary Jane or she's revealed she already knew. The symbiote is rejected by Peter as soon as he learns what it is and Brock has already been fired and humiliated (it'll be something very similar to the actual story, where Brock did many interviews with a man claiming he was the notorious serial killer plaguing the city, and Spider-Man caught the real culprit). Brock meets the symbiote, it's true love, they stalk and terrorize Spider-Man and Mary Jane, Venom gets taken down, Peter and MJ get married.

I wanted to end the series here because I think Venom is the last truly great Spider-Man villain created and that the story gets much less interesting once Peter gets married. I'd try to end it on a happy note (and I don't just mean with a wedding, I mean something hardcore Spidey fans will love).I can see why you'd put Venom in as the last villian (even if I don't agree with it, exactly.)
To me, though, it seems wrong, sort of a left field sort of thing. I suppose it depends on how the series plays out... but I think maybe Harry-as-Green Goblin might be a better way to go.

Pay me no heed. Just the ravings of a dangerous old...

What? I'm beating a dead horse again?! My God! This post is turning into an Equine Massacre! :eek: :)

(I will point out, though, that you really mean "most hardcore Spidey fans will love." Unless you're trying to imply that I'm not hardcore. Then it's all "Whoa there, buddy! I'm hardcore! I played the Atari 2600 Spider-man a bijillion times! I owned the issue of Top Dog that had a Spider-man cameo in it! If that's not hardcore, I don't know what is!" And further bits of nonsense.)

That's a good point, but I think it's worth a shot in a multi-film series. Done properly, there's a good chance the mvoie characters will be as compelling as the comics book characters.I agree in theory, but what you're planning is damn ambitious in scope.

I think the Batman is definitely more difficult to sell to the public than Spider-Man. I'm not saying he isn't wildly popular, and I'm not saying I'd make any unreasonable (from a true fan's perspective) compromise if making a Batman movie franchise, and I have plenty of my own ideas about that as well. I'm saying that Spider-Man has elements from all film genres, and the Batman does not. The average Batman story is not a romance story, and when that comes into it, it's supposed to be pretty messed up. The average Batman story is not a comedy, even if it can be very funny. The average Batman story is dark, dirty and depressing. There's nothing wrong with that, and any decently made Batman story will hold true to this, but it's not as easy a sell to the "general," popcorn-munching, girl-dating, mind-numbed audience. I would never concede Spider-Man's brilliant mind when it comes to a story, even if pansies like Sam Raimi would. But Spider-Man's intelligence can be sold as were window dressing. The intelligence and brooding nature of the Batman is pervasive. It's not something important that supplements his winning personality. It is his personality. He's not a friendly, accessable guy. I have no problem with that, and that's how I like it, but the Batman as a person is not as appealing to most people as Spider-Man is. That's a problem many of DC's characters have, but the Batman especially, since he's the "jerk." He's the "obsessive-compulsive." He's the "stern authority figure." He's amazing, but he's not as "well-rounded" and universally appealling as Spider-Man. This is only important insofar as it should be child's play to make a proper Spider-Man movie, and yet they came light years closer with "Batman Begins" than they did with either Spider-Man movie. This is not tribalistic idiocy speaking. I've paid for hundreds of Spider-Man comics, and I only have as many Batman comics as I do (which still isn't even a decent fraction of how many Spider-Man comics I've acquired) because I feel guilty if I don't buy at least one comics when I'm reading a whole stack of unworthy comics at the store, and Marvel is rarely worth paying for anymore. One is not better than the other. One is just more widely marketable than the other. That's all.The thing is, Batman could be like a darker version of the Bond films, with maybe about as much romance. He's never had a steady girlfriend, like Lois Lane or Margo Lane, so a new love interest for Bruce or Batman could be introduced for each film. (Or not; I keep thinking about how well the animated series did, and it had no love interest as far as I could see.)

(Oh, and I am aware of Viki Vale, Batwoman, and Catwoman being closely linked to the Caped Crusader. I don't think they aren't the same thing as the two Lanes.)

Happy reading. Hope your schedule is free. :0

:wolverineNothing's really changed. My problem still is unresolved, and might not be in the near future. I'll probably resume my trolling of this place later this week, just to return to sanity a bit.

[Cullen]

A tense juncture? As in, a juncture actually worth calling "tense" in light of how things normally are with you? Man, everybody's having a rough time these days. :(
Feel better, Sullen. :up:

:wolverineI feel fine. Now other members of my family... they aren't so hot. Which is why I'm tense.

As I said earlier, the situation isn't improving. It's not getting worse, either, but that's neither here nor there.

What I had intended on doing by dropping down my appearances on the Hype (one thing among many I was allegedly dropping) was work on the novel. That has fallen through. 'Bout all I've accomplished is returning my blog to a nearly daily schedule. While I started blogging to help with my writing, it ain't getting the novel done.

NOTHING is getting the novel done.

Everytime I set out to set up some sort of discipline, some sort of true schedule, I end up banging up against my own ineptness, laziness, or a combination of the two.

Cheeses me off, it does.

Anyway, I've come back here to inflict everyone here with what I laughingly call wit and intellegent discourse. I'm a sadist, I know.

If I do vanish again, it'll (hopefully) mean I'm taking another stab at the novel. Try not to celibrate too hard.

And, no doubt, result in more meandering blog entries... :(

[Joker]

Good to hear from you again, Ock. :up:

So basically that's the Master Planner story arc, minus the Aunt May/radiation poisoning plot. Would you want that element excluded or were you just explaining the Ock side of the story?

Either way, I would most definitely bring Doc Ock back for a sequel. The first four movies would basically go Octavius, Osborn, Octavius, Osborn-- at least in terms of the main villains. There would still be other villains but in less emotionally invested capacities. Dr. Octopus and the Green Goblin would both return to wreak havoc on Peter Parker's life. Octavius is such an egotistical and destructive bastard that he endangers the lives of two of Peter's loved ones without even intending to, and Osborn is such a sadistic psychopath that he targets Peter's loved ones specifically. They also have different reasons for being inactive for one movie each-- not absent, though, as they'll have scenes (especially Osborn), but they won't be active villains-- with Ock being incarcerated in a super-maximum security prison and the Green Goblin a repressed alternate personality trapped within Norman Osborn's mind.

For me, ideally I'd have all of these elements tied into the third movie's story:
1) Otto Octavius, still physically bonded to his cybernetic, A.I. assisted unbreakable, fully-charged, self-powered, multifunctional tentacles breaks out of the Vault and makes his way from Colorado back to New York.
This may be shown in a flashback rather than chronologically in order, if we want to have the whole "So the Master Planner was actually Doc Ock all along!" effect, but it has to be shown. Brian Singer's good-but-not-quite-good-enough version of Magneto got a damn cool jail-break scene, and Magneto has never even been in prison against his will in the comics, so the ideal movie version of Doctor Octopus (a quite frequent "guest" of the government) damn well deserves one as well. The biggest issue with that would be the question of why it wasn't all over the news, how the most dangerous solitary criminal in history (even more so than the Green Goblin, since the the hardware Osborn uses wouldn't be as durable as Octavius' machine in my ideal movie series) escaped a super-max prison and is now on the loose, but there is a precedent in the comics for this happening as well. When Venom broke out of the Vault and Mary Jane told Peter she saw the bastard swinging overhead, Peter called them (either the local police or the Vault itself) and asked why New York didn't get the news, and they said they didn't want to induce public panic. Well, there ya go.

2) A gang of highly-trained, high-quality mercenaries is hired by an individual codenamed Master Planner who remains in the shadows and communicates with his hirelings only through internet messages (can't you just see the e-mail address and/or instant messenger screenname "MasterPlanner"?) and through the telephone (He would use a voice-scrambler over the phone, of course. This way, not only might viewers who don't know the Master Planner story actually be surprised when Dr. Octopus is discovered, but it means that the movie can actually present the original story from the comics more or less literally as it was in the comics. In comics, they'll often show word bubbles from mysterious figures that aren't actually shown to the reader. With a voice modifier, the audience can actually hear the character speak without knowing who it is. Awesome, huh?) The Master Planner's mercenaries wear high-tech uniforms complete with gas masks that can switch to acting as rebreathers for underwater diving. They steal various high-tech scientific equipment for a purpose that isn't revealed until later (in the Master Planner story arc, I don't think Ock's plan was actually revealed at all... I think he just needed the new isotope for an unknown purpose and all the reader knew is that Peter needed it to cure Aunt May of her radiation poisoning). Spider-Man catches them before or after one of their thefts and gets into it with them. They elude him.

3) Aunt May needs an emergency blood transfusion and gets one, with Peter's blood. Because it was an emergency, Peter doesn't get a chance to consider what effect his tainted blood would have on his aunt. He may not even consider it until she falls ill with radiation poisoning, or some other kind of blood poisoning. But that's what happens, and the doctors don't know how to cure her.
I don't know how I would make it work like in the comics, where Dr. Curt Connors was the one Spider-Man approached for help. Because Connors had already turned himself into the Lizard and Spider-Man cured him by that issue, Connors was now studying/practicing more savory and traditional sciences again and he owed Spider-Man big time. In the series I've been imagining, the Lizard isn't created until at least after the third movie, so Curt Connors would still be obsessed with reptile DNA and mutagenic compounds, trying to grow his arm back and revolutionize human recovery, and he wouldn't owe Spider-Man or Peter Parker any favors at this point. Hell, he might not even be in New York at this point. Anyway, that leaves either an unresolved way to match the comics’ version of events in the movie or perhaps this idea (which came to me just now, actually):
The hospital needs to have a special new drug shipped in (that is risky in and of itself and/or requires a risky procedure in order to implement it) that will take at least a day to receive, and Peter-- May's only living relative-- has to authorize the procedure. For some reason, Peter can't make an official authorization until the day the drug is brought in (either he can’t decide until the last minute -- which would be just plain stupid and something more appropriate for Raimi’s franchise, where Peter’s most prominent quality is his inability to make a God damn decision-- or because the legal documents take time to put together, or something like that... I don't know, I've been watching "House" and apparently all kinds of legal and technical ***** can go wrong in hospitals… maybe Brian Singer would be willing to lend us a consultant from that show). So now Peter, just like in the comics, can't stand waiting around the hospital while May lays dying with no way to help it until the next day, so he goes out to distract his tortured mind with some slinging of webs and saving of lives. By chance (or is it fate?), he runs across the Master Planner's men again and follows them to their lair. There he meets the man himself, who turns out to be Dr. Octopus. They fight, destroy a lot of expensive and heavy stuff, and the structure begins to collapse and flood. Doc Ock escapes, and Spider-Man is left trapped under tons of wreckage, and in this scenario, instead of needing to reach the isotope to bring to May in time, he needs to make sure he doesn't pass out and lose all hope of freeing himself so he can sign those documents at the hospital and authorize May's procedure in time. So he rises to the challenge and gets himself out from under tons of debris, only to be attacked by Ock's men on the way out of the flooding base. He’s had just about enough of this tomfoolery and kicks all of their asses, ties them up and calls the police once he gets outside. He gets photos of the Master Planner's gang being rounded up by the cops and taken into custody (he has the time to do this because he's been told that the drug and/or documents will arrive at the hospital around a certain time), which should help pay the medical bills. He gets to the hospital looking like he spent the night in a blender and does what needs doing. Aunt May lives. He's saved his surrogate mother. Hooray for Spider-Man! He demands top dollar from Jameson for the photos he took, or else he’s selling to the Daily Globe (the competition, where Eddie Brock works) or whoever the highest bidder is.

4) Doc Ock is still running around without supervision, and Spider-Man knows he's going to run into him again, and he'd better damn well be ready. He creates a computer virus (now keep in mind, it would be extremely difficult to not only create a program able to override the safeguards in the computer Doc Ock's harness, and also to transmit it when the computer is heavily shielded) or some kind of neutralizing agent that he thinks will make Doc Ock's tentacles malfunction. I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination (well, social science, perhaps, but I know next to nothing about computers, physics or chemistry), so I don't know how it would work. What I do know is that I want Ock's harness to have a computer that is practically impenetrable so he can retain his power while incarcerated, and I want Spider-Man to deliberately make it malfunction during a fight. Anyway, they fight on rooftops in a spectacular showdown, and when Spidey uses his secret weapon on Ock's machine, the tentacles go out of control instead of shutting down or merely converging on the wearer (it would be great for Spidey if the tentacles simply wrapped themselves around Octavius and stayed there until he could be taken into custody), and they knock a chimney out onto the street. A young child is about to be crushed, but Captain George Stacy-- decorated police officer, father to Gwen, friend to J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Roberton, and friend to both Peter Parker and Spider-Man-- pushes the youngster out of the way, being crushed himself. Spider-Man lands a solid headshot on Octavius that puts him down for the count, throws a huge, sticky web-net on him so he can be taken back into custody and goes down to see to Captain Stacy, and the dying man asks to be taken out of earshot of the gathered crowd (which is being pushed back by the police throughout the battle) or simply whispers his dying words to Spider-Man. He tells Peter (as in, he says his name) to take care of Gwen and that he's proud of him. Spider-Man has saved his surrogate mother and lost a father figure, both through his heroic actions. Gwen is devastated and blames Spider-Man for her father’s death, along with Jameson (big surprise), half the NYPD and a good chunk of the public.

Anyway, that's just how I would set it up. I was wondering if you'd have at least had the dying Aunt May aspect included in the Master Planner arc, and what you think of adding George Stacy's death and some of the details I threw in.

:wolverine

Well that's the kind of in depth detail I was referring to at the end of my post ;)

I'm not sure about the Aunt May angle.You see if our Octavius is a fusion expert then what use would he have for radiation??? Unless he's building a deadly weapon.

His plan in the original Master Planner story was to master all forms of radiation and for that he was stealing all sorts of special equipment including a very rare isotope called ISO-36.Which of course is what Aunt May needed to cure her due to the illness she got from the transfusion she got from Peter.

The death of Captain Stacy would be an excellent climax to the Spidey/Ock showdown :up:

Ock escaping the vault,contacting his men thru e-mail/disguised voice on the phone etc is all great.

In this movie I'd want to see Ock more darker,more bitter.He's suffered defeat and incarceration.So he is especially bitter now towards Spider-Man.While Spider-Man was merely an annoying nuissance in the 1st movie now he is an enemy to Octavius.And Ock relishes the opportunity to destroy Spider-Man.

[Herr Logan]

While I like the ideas expressed here and really have nothing to add to them, I do think they'd work better in an animated series rather than a...

What's that? I'm beating a dead horse, now? Okay, okay.

Let me just add that I didn't see how anyone could make Lord of the Rings as a live action film, and yet there it is, sitting on top of my DVD cabinet. Being wrong once means I could easily be wrong again.
Well, an animated series is the ideal moving-pictures/audio medium for a long-running comic books series adaptation. That's pretty obvious to all. Still, it would be excellent if we got to see our beloved characters properly presented on the big screen in live action; this is something we haven't seen yet for any major Marvel characters, barring just two characters from "Fantastic Four." Make no mistake, I'd rather see an animated series or animated movie that presented thee characters properly than any number of live-action movies in which they are watered down, but this thread is about what ideal superhero movie adaptations would be like, regardless of the shameful realties of how Hollywood works. I'm not prohibiting discussion of animated series at all, though, and I don't mean to give that impression. I'd just like to tap the sign again and emphasize that this is all theory and imagination, so high ambitions should be forgiven here.
Bear in mind I was speaking of how I would handle the Vulture. Your way is, no doubt, the wiser way to go.
No doubt. :cool:
HOWEVER, in my years of watching Spider-man, I don't think I've ever seen the Vulture as depicted by Ditko (If he appeared in the 90's series, he did so after I gave the show up as a lost cause.) It would be something I would dearly love to see. Orbson needed a costume to be the Green Goblin; Octavius needed his robotic arms to be Doc Ock. Toomes was probably called the Vulture even before he went the route of Daedalus. He looks like a Vulture, even more so in his original costume.
I very much doubt the Vulture was referred to as such before he trotted out his flying suit and went to town. That's an element of Doc Ock's origin, how he was called Dr. Octopus while merely wearing the harness before he was bonded to it and became violent.

A Ditko-esque Vulture costume could be done, no doubt. In the latest "Star Wars" movie, I got a good look at Darth Vader's new outfit and part of it looked like something with which you'd upholster your car; it was some kind of black material with parallel lines or grooves. I believe I replied to you "What did you have in mind when you said you wanted it to look like Ditko's design? Did you have any specific thoughts as to what the material would be made of or what the purpose of the vertical-line pattern would signify? Speak, damn you! I want your ideas!" I'm still waiting for your thoughts on that... :mad:
My vision of what the Vulture would look like is vague, but I wouldn't approve of it unless the wings and the feathery collar at the very least made him look close enough to the classic vision that we could instantly recognize him or if we saw it presented at random out of context we'd look and say "Hey, that looks like Adrian Toomes, aka the Vulture, created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, presented in "the Amazing Spider-Man" #2 in 1963!"
Pay me no heed. Just the ravings of a dangerous old man. Or a middle age man who feels OLD. Whichever I am. I ferget.
As you wish. :)
Again, I was refering to what I would do for my movies (stupid brain; making things unclear for others). HOWEVER, yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Nothing major, mind you. A mention, an appearance at a trial, something like that. It would give your movies a bit of a connection.
Okay, I was just trying to get a clarification. Please don't let these questions allow you to think I'm more concerned with my own imaginary set-up than yours or others' ideas; I just feel the need to clarify since a lot of my movie set-up has been posted and people (like you, for example) are responding to that.
You could do it in the second film, saying police believed that he was killed in an escape attempt (Not even necessarily his escape attempt.)

But all I was really saying (assuming I remember what I was thinking at the time, which isn't as easy as it sounds) is that you shouldn't let a little thing like DEATH keep a character from returning. Hasn't hurt the comics that much...

(I seem to recall Raimi saying that Doc Ock wasn't dead at the end of the second movie. Whatever that's worth)
Make no mistake, the true Doc Ock was dead in the movie-verse before he even appeared onscreen. But if we're speaking literally, no, there's nothing to prohibit his return. He probably won't, though.
You're probably right. And as a great number of fans love the character, his inclusion would be the right thing to do.

Brief cameo for MJ. My kind of movie.
I can see why you'd put Venom in as the last villian (even if I don't agree with it, exactly.)
To me, though, it seems wrong, sort of a left field sort of thing. I suppose it depends on how the series plays out... but I think maybe Harry-as-Green Goblin might be a better way to go.
Personally, I never particularly liked Green Goblin Jr. Not as much as the other villains, anyway. I know it's a large piece of Spider-Man history, so I would never tell anyone else that it's something they shouldn't want to see in a Spider-Man movie franchise, but I didn't account for it in my own write-up.

Even if I end the movie with Venom and the wedding, I think I may have miscalculated a bit in my 6-movie plan. The plan was basically this--
Movie 1: Spidey's debut, Doc Ock as the main villain is defeated and incarcerated, Betty Brant as love interest, Peter is graduating high school
Movie 2: Peter in college, meets MJ, Gwen, George Stacy, Harry and Norman, fights Green Goblin, Norman bumps his head and the GG is submerged
Movie 3: The Master Planner story arc, and George Stacy gets killed
Movie 4: Green Goblin returns, kills Gwen
Movie 5: John Jameson crashes his shuttle and Spidey saves him, JJJ blames Spidey and sets the Spider-Slayers and the Scorpion on him, alien symbiote becomes new costume by the end
Movie 6: Venom, and Peter marries MJ

But I also wanted to have a story with the Chameleon, Kraven and the Lizard, preferrably before the fifth movie, but there's no way in hell that will fit snugly into the fourth movie. Maybe it should be extended into seven movies, and I'll have to figure out what else to put into Movie 4. While it may seem enough to just have the Green Goblin come back and wreak havoc on Peter Parker's life (as in, not just Spider-Man's work environment), everything in this series has to be filled with Spider-Man lore and balanced appropriately. I suppose one or two cameo villain fights will do, or maybe an organized crime subplot in which the Enforcers show up.

Anyway, but original thought was that I agree the tail end of the series seems a bit less connected to the beginning, going from JJJ's vendetta against Spider-Man spawning a new supervillain to Venom and a wedding, but I think it would work if done properly.
Pay me no heed. Just the ravings of a dangerous old...

What? I'm beating a dead horse again?! My God! This post is turning into an Equine Massacre!
[Homer Simpson]Mmm... Equine Massacre...[/Homer Simpson] *drools*
(I will point out, though, that you really mean "most hardcore Spidey fans will love." Unless you're trying to imply that I'm not hardcore. Then it's all "Whoa there, buddy! I'm hardcore! I played the Atari 2600 Spider-man a bijillion times! I owned the issue of Top Dog that had a Spider-man cameo in it! If that's not hardcore, I don't know what is!" And further bits of nonsense.)
Did you enjoy the last action sequence in the first Spider-Man movie? The one where there were no live humans on screen but there was a fully CGI Spider-Man in an amazing and beautiful display of web-slinging? If you're a hardcore Spidey fan, you loved it (regardless of how you felt about the rest of the film), and that's the kind of ending shot every movie would end with in my series.
I agree in theory, but what you're planning is damn ambitious in scope.
I've addressed this issue. Don't make me address it again. :mad:
The thing is, Batman could be like a darker version of the Bond films, with maybe about as much romance. He's never had a steady girlfriend, like Lois Lane or Margo Lane, so a new love interest for Bruce or Batman could be introduced for each film. (Or not; I keep thinking about how well the animated series did, and it had no love interest as far as I could see.)

(Oh, and I am aware of Viki Vale, Batwoman, and Catwoman being closely linked to the Caped Crusader. I don't think they aren't the same thing as the two Lanes.)
James Bond has sex every movie. The Batman is not supposed to have sex. He's not supposed to be close to anyone in that way. Every time he develops feelings for someone, either they break it off out of fear of tragedy (like Silver St. Cloud) or they're on the wrong side of the law (Catwoman and Talia Head). And James Bond's over-the-top stunts are supposed to be unrealistic. We're supposed to actually believe that the Batman can do those things, and he's never been a government agent of any kind, so he had to seek out different training and adapt it to what he needed to do.

The Batman is not simply a darker version of James Bond, and if presented properly, the Batman would be a much more cerebral character than James Bond. Bond movies are mindless action and lame one-liners. Yeah, I'll watch them, but they aren't intended to be all that intelligent. The Batman mythos has Bond-like elements but also hard-boiled detective fiction and outright superhero themes. It's not as easy to sell to the lowest common denominator as James Bo