Batman Vs. Superman Who Would Win [Archive] - Page 3

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 05:12 PM

Kryptonite really isn't as damaging on Superman as everyone in this thread is making it out to be. It doesn't actually weaken him, it makes him sick. If he punched Batman while Batman was carrying Kryptonite it would still knocked Batman to dust. Unless Batman has a means of turning the sun red, he's not going to bring Superman down to his level. Furthermore Batman has admitted when and if Superman wants to kill him; he could, and Batman couldn't do anything about it (except hide). Superman could heat snipe him from space, speed blitz him so fast he couldn't even get off an errant thought, of just freeze him in place by F***ING BREATHING.

As for Superman being a dummy, only morons like Frank Miller think that. Superman designed the robots that killed Donna Troy, he has cataloged and studied most all of the alien races in the galaxy, he understands, intimately, Kryptonian technology and can process his thoughts at super-human speed. Everyone likes to say "well I've never seen him written this way".

Bullsh**

I'm sure he was displaying his stupidity when he moped the floor with Darkseid, or when he was involved in Crisis of Infinite Earths, or how he got brainwashed by Max Lord and it took nearly the entire League to kind of 'stop him'...and they still barely bruised him. Or perhaps when he held his own against Doomsday, a far more powerful, far superior fighter. Maybe we should look at all the times he's beaten Lex Luthor too, who is still the smartest man in the DCU room. Yeah, total dummy :rolleyes:

What people don't see is the typical fair the intelligent in comics. Superman doesn't use his intellect for personal gain. He isn't ruling the world and making us grovel at his feet....yet. I think that's why most people tend to brand him a dummy, because while he is lightyears more advanced than even Bruce, he doesn't act that way. Justice League Unlimited stated it perfectly; Superman "lives in a world of cardboard, always taking care not to break something or hurt someone". Imagine a man so powerful that making an omelet in the morning requires precision a surgeon would cringe at. He can't touch his wife as I could touch my girlfriend or my dog because for him that normal force would simply kill it instantly. Same with his mind. He can't think too fast or he could hurt someone as a result.

scatterax

11-29-2008, 05:16 PM

Whats that got to do with it????

As for any of Supermans tools...as long as they are still in continuity then he can use them.

Boy your love of Superman is blinding you to basic logic.

well then he has his led suit. so even by your conditions superman's weakness wouldn't effect him.

but the main point of this post is so I can just state that I like batman much better than superman. you know why? cuz he's human. (unlike mr 3 identity superman) the fact that bullets don't hert him and that he's NOT virtually unbeatable (like superman IS) makes him easier to relate to and more interesting. plus he has better stories. and better villains, and so on so forth. But none of that helps much in a fight against superman.

a (true) fan has got to know his favorite heroes limitations. you seems to believe that batman has no limitations. I pitty the fool. I doubt batman could even beat spiderman, much less superman. but that's another argument for another day.

however I do think that your love for batman is blinding you to the truth. And I mean that. ironic, isn't it?:lmao:

scatterax

11-29-2008, 05:34 PM

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 05:37 PM

It's used inconsistently, but Kryptonite is supposed to poison him and red sun radiation takes away his powers. That's the distinction between the two weaknesses.

scatterax

11-29-2008, 05:43 PM

It's used inconsistently, but Kryptonite is supposed to poison him and red sun radiation takes away his powers. That's the distinction between the two weaknesses.

I see. cool.

terry78

11-29-2008, 05:47 PM

Supes would throw Bats into the sun, and then mess up Wonder Woman because she didn't make his last sandwich the way he liked it.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/Lasergoose/takethat.jpg

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 05:58 PM

Superman doesn't take no for an answer.

sto_vo_kor_2000

11-29-2008, 08:12 PM

@sto_vo_kor_2000

of course it won't be 100% fair. superman has way to many abilities. you take things to literal man. but superman needs to be able to use all his (usual) ability in a fight for it to be valid. same goes for batman. And what I meant when I said that he wouldn't have kryptonite w/ him when he fights the riddler is that it's not 1 of his usual gadgets. in some stories he has some in the batcave for emergansies but thats about it.

Again your stacking the odds in Supermans favor.You want Superman to be able to use what ever he has at his disposal but not allow Batman to do the same.

Batman does carry the Kryptonite every time he thinks he will encounter Superman.

Even if they are going out to lunch he carries it, that makes it a regular part of his arsenal.

look, at the end of the day..
batman=human<superhuman=superman

Irreverent.

tell me how batman can even hurt superman? (and that's w/o kryptonight or some stupid battle armor.)

Electricity,Magic,Supersonic sound Red solar radiation weapons and those are just the ones Batman can use on his own.

There's also the placeing of Supermans loved ones in danger.

And why cant he use the battle armor or the kryptonite?????

there's just no way batman can win w/o some pre-fight circumstances that either make batman stronger than he was b4, or that make superman weaker than he normally is.

That "pre-fight circumstances " as you call it is strategy and is one of Batmans greatest skills.

and thats what makes all the "batman wins" arguments unfair(er). you need to stop ignoring the obvious fact that batman doesn't stand a chance, and start using your common sense.:hehe:

Common sence is where your lacking.

Your expecting the characters to act "out of character" in this fight.

You want Superman to be able to use all his powers and skills but your limiting Batman to only half of his for this fight.

Fact is Batman would have the Kryptonite

Fact is that even if he didnt he could have it brought to him in a few seconds and he is capable of hideing from Superman for a few minutes

Same goes for the robot suit.

Fact is Superman has other weakness that Batman can and has exploited before and would again.

Kryptonite really isn't as damaging on Superman as everyone in this thread is making it out to be. It doesn't actually weaken him, it makes him sick. If he punched Batman while Batman was carrying Kryptonite it would still knocked Batman to dust. Unless Batman has a means of turning the sun red, he's not going to bring Superman down to his level. Furthermore Batman has admitted when and if Superman wants to kill him; he could, and Batman couldn't do anything about it (except hide). Superman could heat snipe him from space, speed blitz him so fast he couldn't even get off an errant thought, of just freeze him in place by F***ING BREATHING.

Which is what I've said.

If Superman wanted to kill bats it would be over.

But my point is that its not in his character to take the fight to that level.

But the Kryptone does weaken him if he's exposed long enough to a good enough amount.

well then he has his led suit. so even by your conditions superman's weakness wouldn't effect him.

Pay attention....Superman has other weaknesses beside Kryptonite.

Not to mention that the led suit has been shown to be quite eazy to rip.

a (true) fan has got to know his favorite heroes limitations. you seems to believe that batman has no limitations.

No not at all I'm fully awear of his abilities and limitations.

As a matter of fact I believe that the writters have gone too far in saying that he can figure out a way to beat anyone.....but the point is that is how they have writter him for the las 20+ years.

I pitty the fool. I doubt batman could even beat spiderman, much less superman. but that's another argument for another day.

Beating him would be far eazer for Bats.Spidy is eazer to manipulate.

however I do think that your love for batman is blinding you to the truth. And I mean that. ironic, isn't it?

You dont understand me at all.

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 08:25 PM

Batman would kill himself if he carried Krpytonite at all times, and I know for a fact he doesn't, because Superman's caught him without it once or twice.

sto_vo_kor_2000

11-29-2008, 08:30 PM

Batman would kill himself if he carried Krpytonite at all times, and I know for a fact he doesn't, because Superman's caught him without it once or twice.

He carries it sheiled and those times you speak of he was not expecting to encounter Superman.

Like I said every time he expects to encounter Superman ,wether for a mission or Mc Donalds he carries Kryptonite.

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 08:37 PM

The lead shielding only provides temporary protection. Luthor still gave himself cancer with lead shielded Krpytonite.

ShadowBoxing

11-29-2008, 08:45 PM

yavK0mnE3wI

sto_vo_kor_2000

11-29-2008, 11:23 PM

The lead shielding only provides temporary protection. Luthor still gave himself cancer with lead shielded Krpytonite.

Which could be the result of inatiquate lead sheilding.

They say Lex is the smartest man in the Dc u but he makes plenty of over confident mistakes.

Batman obvious has devised a safer way [better lead shielding] of storing the Kryptonite sine he's sitting on top of the largested amount accumulated in the cave.

yavK0mnE3wI

Funny:lmao:

scatterax

11-30-2008, 02:11 PM

Which could be the result of inatiquate lead sheilding.

They say Lex is the smartest man in the Dc u but he makes plenty of over confident mistakes.

Batman obvious has devised a safer way [better lead shielding] of storing the Kryptonite sine he's sitting on top of the largested amount accumulated in the cave.

Funny:lmao:

I think maybe you have an inadequate sense of reasoning. you stack the odds in batmans favor by giving him every possible advantage possible and ignoring all of supermans advantages.

batman can make mistakes too. he's not perfect.

ok, listen up son. no amount of training could prepare you for a fight against superman. batterangs sure wouldn't help much. neither would money. and if you were a genius level strategist, you'd know your best bet was to run away and find help. kryptonite would be unavailable to you, because even if you had the resources to find some you WOULDN'T know you had a fight coming up, so you wouldn't have time to find some b4 superman showed up. if you think that theres any level of intelligence, fighting ability, or (hand held) weapon that could give you the upper hand against superman, than you'd have just made ur own over confident (and deadly mistake). if you can't beat supes under those conditions neither can batman.

Infinity9999x

11-30-2008, 03:42 PM

Honestly, if Superman really wanted to, he could kill pretty much anyone. The only thing is, he rarely, if ever, actually lets loose on an opponent.

I think his biggest asset that most people forget is his speed. I mean, Superman's already one of the most powerful guys out there when we're talking raw power. He's incredibly strong, he can freeze you with his breath, and he has freakin heat vision. All that right there makes him incredibly powerful already.

But when you add his speed to the mix, he's basically unbeatable. Because when he wants to, he's the fastest person alive, besides the flash. If Superman wanted to, he could crush everyone without anyone being able to lay a hand on him.

However, most writers don't bring his speed into account, because quite honestly, it makes him too powerful. Which is why they overlook it so much. If they wrote Superman using all his powers to his full extent he'd be unbeatable, and that's boring, so they don't.

sto_vo_kor_2000

11-30-2008, 03:49 PM

I think maybe you have an inadequate sense of reasoning. you stack the odds in batmans favor by giving him every possible advantage possible and ignoring all of supermans advantages.

I havent given Batman any advantage that he hasnt proven himself capable of preforming time and time again.

And Superman has proven not to take every advantage that he powers provide him.

batman can make mistakes too. he's not perfect.

Never did I imply he was perfect.

But no one every brought up any mistake that ether may make.

Just known actions that the charters would take.Mistakes are a un-known variable that cant be accounted for.

Its like slipping on a banana peal........you cant factor in something like that.

What you do factor in is the known facts.

ok, listen up son.

Your calling me son?????How old are you??????

no amount of training could prepare you for a fight against superman.

Boy are you ignorant.

Training is the only way to win any fight with a Superior force.

and if you were a genius level strategist, you'd know your best bet was to run away and find help.

Again proving your ignorance.

Even finding help would be one of his plans....he's done it that way before.

kryptonite would be unavailable to you, because even if you had the resources to find some you WOULDN'T know you had a fight coming up, so you wouldn't have time to find some b4 superman showed up.

He doesnt need to find any because he owns the largest amount in the Dc universe.

He carries some almost at all times that he thinks he will meat up with Superman and I'm sure he has some already ridged by raido control to be delieverd to him with a touch of a botton in his belt.

The Kryptonite is always avaliable to him.

if you think that theres any level of intelligence, fighting ability, or (hand held) weapon that could give you the upper hand against superman, than you'd have just made ur own over confident (and deadly mistake). if you can't beat supes under those conditions neither can batman.

By your logic I should be able to play pro sports as well as any pro player.

Fact is a greater level of intelligence and fighting ability can help the right person to win in any contest with a superior force.

And the right weapons in the right hands would also make a difference.

Point in case I have to fist just like Mike tyson.....but his greater level of boxing knowlidgeand fighting ability would leave me no chance at all.

terry78

11-30-2008, 04:06 PM

He's been powered up over the decades, that's where I think the problem somewhat lies. Siegel and Schuster created him to be a superpowered being, but he had limits. Other writers have tried to make him more complex by giving him godlike abilities, and showcasing how it takes its toll on him mentally and what not, which is good, yet also bad.

scatterax

11-30-2008, 11:27 PM

sto_vo_kor_2000, ur not understanding anything I've said about how batman is human.

let's just put this whole debate to an end right here right now. Do you think that batman can beat superman w/o prep time and w/o de-powering him? I simple yes or no will do. (so don't beat around the bush.:cmad:)

Venomfan

11-30-2008, 11:42 PM

the question is practically "do you think you can beat Superman in a fight if you had enough money/training"

scatterax

11-30-2008, 11:52 PM

the question is practically "do you think you can beat Superman in a fight if you had enough money/training"

that's exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post. :grin:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-01-2008, 02:34 AM

sto_vo_kor_2000, ur not understanding anything I've said about how batman is human.

I understood it....its just irrelivent to the debate.

let's just put this whole debate to an end right here right now. Do you think that batman can beat superman w/o prep time

Again irrelivent since the pre-time is pretty much already in.

As look as he's know about Superman he's been working on ways to defeat him.

and w/o de-powering him?

And again you want Superman do be able to do everything he does but not Batman.....you just want to fix the fight.

In any fight the first order of buissness would be for Batman to even the odds.

Thats in his character....you want both characters to behave out of character so you can win the debate....Sorry buddy but you fail.

I simple yes or no will do. (so don't beat around the bush.:cmad:)

I never beat around the bush.

the question is practically "do you think you can beat Superman in a fight if you had enough money/training"

What????

Money and training is not all Batman has....its his strength of will and his unwillingness to ever give up.

blksuperman2

12-01-2008, 02:49 AM

LOL, why is this still a debate? I thought it was already established years ago that Bats is the only hero Supes trusted the kryptonite ring to because he knew Bruce wouldn't hesitate to use it to put him down. If I had a ring made out of my deadlist weakness I'd give it to hmmm:

Capt Marvel - No
Green Lantern - No
Wonder Woman - No
Flash - No

There's a number of heroes that could take on Supes but he decided to give it to Bruce. Seems to me that Clark acknowledges that Bats is the only one who will do everything it takes to beat Supes. And this is coming from someone who's always thought that if Supes really wanted to he could easliy defeat anyone. Part of his appeal to me is the fact that he always restrains himself when fighting which is probably his biggest weakness and greatest strength.

**PS - I know the kryptonite ring has since been destroyed**

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-01-2008, 02:53 AM

**PS - I know the kryptonite ring has since been destroyed**

Its back again....or an other was made.

blksuperman2

12-01-2008, 03:11 AM

Its back again....or an other was made.

hmm. Didn't know that. Who made it this time?

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-01-2008, 10:38 AM

hmm. Didn't know that. Who made it this time?

To tell the truth I dont know.

I'm not even sure if it was remade or just retconed back in.I just know its been used within the last year or so.

Unless its been destroyed since then....again, or I'm getting my time frames mixed up.

scatterax

12-01-2008, 12:58 PM

I understood it....its just irrelivent to the debate.

Again irrelivent since the pre-time is pretty much already in.

As look as he's know about Superman he's been working on ways to defeat him.

And again you want Superman do be able to do everything he does but not Batman.....you just want to fix the fight.

In any fight the first order of buissness would be for Batman to even the odds.

Thats in his character....you want both characters to behave out of character so you can win the debate....Sorry buddy but you fail.

I never beat around the bush.

What????

Money and training is not all Batman has....its his strength of will and his unwillingness to ever give up.

funny. you didn't seem to answer my question. do you think batman can beat superman w/o pretime and w/o de-powering him?

(I mean honestly. you want batman to have every advantage possible and want superman to lose the very powers that make him superman just batman can beat him.)

dnno1

12-01-2008, 02:37 PM

PeR1xvNQfH0

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-01-2008, 03:06 PM

funny. you didn't seem to answer my question.

I did answer your question.

do you think batman can beat superman w/o pretime

That question is irrelevant because Batman has already had years of prep time in planning to take down Superman.

and w/o de-powering him?

And here we are again to you limiting one of the characters.

It is Batmans greatest ability that he plans a way to defeat everyone.

You cant say that Superman has all of his abilities and then limit Batmans abilities for the fight.

Batmans abilities are as much a part of his character as Flying and super strength are to Supermans character.

If Superman has all his abilities in this fight then so should Batman....and one of his abilities would be his plans to even the odds.

(I mean honestly. you want batman to have every advantage possible and want superman to lose the very powers that make him superman just batman can beat him.)

No what I want is for both characters to be able to bring to the fight everything they are capable of doing and everything that is within their character to accomplish.

Thats the only way this fight can come close to being called "FAIR".

Batmans prep-time and planning to even the odds are as much a part of Batmans character as any of Supermans powers are to him.

For Batman not to have a plan or a way to even the odds would be for Batman to be acting out of character.

I want each character to bring to the table everything they are known to be able to do and is within their character.

You on the other hand want to alter how the characters behave and limit the abilities of Batman.

Why is that?????

Why do you insist that Superman be able to use all his abilities but want to limit Batmans?????

Why do you insist that ether behave out of character?????

Must be because your logic is faulty.

PeR1xvNQfH0

Pretty cool.

scatterax

12-01-2008, 11:15 PM

you say you want both of them to be able to bring everything they got, yet you want a powerless superman. interesting logic there.:grin:

RootBeerMaster

12-01-2008, 11:40 PM

Well if we are makeing the rules be batman vs Superman but batman doesn't have his Ulitiy belt, then yes Superman would beat batman with Easy, Heck I don't even think Superman would need to lift a finger However so would Clay-face and Manbat, they would kill him in his normal batsuit. however this in not how Batman works.

Watch these Batman vs Superman videos and tell me who wins, the last one with Amazo is enlighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yg_p7Rik5g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uklSyanOQfY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHe-i4ZXwxY&feature=related

the last vido in case you couldn't here the words cause it bad quality.

"do you away's carry Kryptonight around with you?' Hawkgirl
" Call it an Insurance Policy" Batman
" And they Say I am Scary" Hawkgirl - she scared. LOL

So I leave that one for you guys to think about other wise I will agree with the Superman does beat Batman with out Batman's Toys with no effort what so ever people. But I think its a mistake to count Batman out.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-01-2008, 11:40 PM

you say you want both of them to be able to bring everything they got, yet you want a powerless superman. interesting logic there.:grin:

I dont "WANT" a powerless Superman....its just that Batman would plan to take away the advantages that those powers give Superman.

Remember what this topic is....Batman vrs Superman.

Not the powers but the characters.

And if they are acting "in character" then Batman would have a way to even the odds.

Thats plain and simple logic.

You seem to be looking at this fight as if it were a set of numbers or stats.

And based on the numbers or stats....of course Superman would win.

But numbers and stats only win you points when your talking about a popularity contest.

Numbers and stats wont even win you the President of the United States.....Just look at how Bush got into office the first time.

This fight is not about the numbers or the powers but about the characters and their known abilities and behaviors.....and its in character for Batman to even the odds.

scatterax

12-01-2008, 11:57 PM

I dont "WANT" a powerless Superman....its just that Batman would plan to take away the advantages that those powers give Superman.

Remember what this topic is....Batman vrs Superman.

Not the powers but the characters.

And if they are acting "in character" then Batman would have a way to even the odds.

Thats plain and simple logic.

You seem to be looking at this fight as if it were a set of numbers or stats.

And based on the numbers or stats....of course Superman would win.

But numbers and stats only win you points when your talking about a popularity contest.

Numbers and stats wont even win you the President of the United States.....Just look at how Bush got into office the first time.

This fight is not about the numbers or the powers but about the characters and their known abilities and behaviors.....and its in character for Batman to even the odds.

but he wouldn't be able to do that in a fight he wasn't expecting is all I'm saying. for batman to stand a chance you have to give him knowlage of the fight ahead of time and giving both characters knowlege just makes it so theres to many things that could or couldn't happen and that doesn't give you a definate answer. maybe you think it's fair for batman to have pre-fight knowlage of superman coming but I don't.

so I'll ask again, do you think batman could beat superman w/o knowing he was gonna fight him and w/o de-powering him?

cause the way I see it, if he didn't know supes was coming he wouldn't think to bring kryptonite, or prepair any other tools, so superman would have use of all his abilities. and I don't think batman caries kryptonite w/ him at all times either. like if batman was in the middle of catching a bank robber and superman came out of nowhere and attacked him he whould be unprepared, and he wouldn't have kryptonite w/ him to use. That's my stance.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-02-2008, 12:58 AM

but he wouldn't be able to do that in a fight he wasn't expecting is all I'm saying. for batman to stand a chance you have to give him knowlage of the fight ahead of time and giving both characters knowlege just makes it so theres to many things that could or couldn't happen and that doesn't give you a definate answer. maybe you think it's fair for batman to have pre-fight knowlage of superman coming but I don't.

so I'll ask again, do you think batman could beat superman w/o knowing he was gonna fight him and w/o de-powering him?

cause the way I see it, if he didn't know supes was coming he wouldn't think to bring kryptonite, or prepair any other tools, so superman would have use of all his abilities. and I don't think batman caries kryptonite w/ him at all times either. like if batman was in the middle of catching a bank robber and superman came out of nowhere and attacked him he whould be unprepared, and he wouldn't have kryptonite w/ him to use. That's my stance.

Again your asking out of character questions.

A] Its not in Supermans character to plan a "sneak attack"

B] De-powering him is not the only way to even the odds.

Again he has been known to carry the Kryptonite at all times....or at least at time he thinks he will meat with Sups for good or bad.

Even thatvideo posted above shows that.

And Bat's has thing prepered in advanced.

He has his car,boat and plane all set up to come to him at the touch of a button on his belt.

Do you really think he doesnt have someway to have the Kryptonite brought to him if he needed it?????

Where talking about a parinoid control freak......of course he has the Kryptonite ready to be brought to him by a number of means.

And to answer your other question.....

Your trying to fix the fight again.

You want Superman to know about the fight but not Batman.

You want Superman to attack first with out Batman knowing he was coming.

And if you had been reading all of my post and paying attention you would have seen that I already gave an answer for that senerio.

If Superman were to ever launch a supprise attack trying to kill Batman he could beat Batman....Batman might still have a chance but that chance would have to depend on superman making a stupid mistake.

But again if you were paying attention....as long as Superman is acting in character and is in control of himself that would "NEVER" happen.

It is not in Superman's nature to plan a sneak attack on a person he calls friend.He would just never do that.

He's a better man then that.....and thats the reason why he loses the fight.

Like I said before...Superboy Prime wins in a secon but Superman loses.

hippie_hunter

12-02-2008, 01:21 AM

Batman cannot beat Superman...end of story.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-02-2008, 01:31 AM

Batman cannot beat Superman...end of story.

Batman has beat Superman......end of story.:whatever:

Savage

12-02-2008, 02:07 AM

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-02-2008, 02:16 AM

He can't beat him if they BOTH know of the upcoming fight. That's just impossible. Batman's advantage is knowing before his opponent or knowing something that the opponent doesn't. If Superman knows the fight is coming then he puts on his sunday's best lead suit and charges the guy at superspeed.

The Superspead attack really isint in his character to use as a first attack on a person he calls friend.

And as I said Kryptonite is not his only weakness that Batman can exploite so the lead suit doesnt help as much as you would like.

Even with both characters knowing Batman has a good chance...as long as Superman is in control of himself.

If he is under outside control then Bats is out for the count.

DieSmiling

12-02-2008, 01:11 PM

Preptime Batgod eats Superman's heart.

Mr.LethalWeapon

12-02-2008, 01:11 PM

The Superspead attack really isint in his character to use as a first attack on a person he calls friend.
Is this to say that if you haven't seen him do it, he wouldn't do it?

mojo-x

12-02-2008, 03:18 PM

Are you kidding me in TDK batman took one two of his most psycho crazy villains he ever faced and still came up on top. In SR Superman got his ass handed to him so bad he ended up on his death bed. I mean how is Superman going to go against Batman when he can’t even stand up to Kumar.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-02-2008, 03:34 PM

Is this to say that if you haven't seen him do it, he wouldn't do it?

No its to say that everything I have learned about the character, after 33 years of reading Superman comic books, leads me to believe that Superman is a much fairer fighter then that.

He's the guy that would walk away from a fight instead of throwing the first punch.

He's the guy that would turn the other cheek before getting into a fight.

He's the guy that holds his punch's even when the guy he's fighting can take it.

He's just over all a good hearted guy who's more interested in a peaceful way out of all conflicts.

Not that things work out that way for him.

scatterax

12-04-2008, 09:25 AM

Batman has beat Superman......end of story.:whatever:

but has he beaten him more times?

scatterax

12-04-2008, 10:25 AM

No its to say that everything I have learned about the character, after 33 years of reading Superman comic books, leads me to believe that Superman is a much fairer fighter then that.

He's the guy that would walk away from a fight instead of throwing the first punch.

He's the guy that would turn the other cheek before getting into a fight.

He's the guy that holds his punch's even when the guy he's fighting can take it.

He's just over all a good hearted guy who's more interested in a peaceful way out of all conflicts.

Not that things work out that way for him.

and batman's not as tuff as he wants every1 to think. he wouldn't kill you or nothin, and he wouldn't break your arm if he didn't need to. he's more like superman than you think. he just tries harder to intimidate people. and superman has killed before when he's had to so he knows when not to be nice.

but since you keep bringing up what's in the heroes character, remember;batman actually getting in a fist fight w/ some one who he calls his friend is more out of character than superman not holding back in a fight.

if superman had a good reason for fighting batman he'd end it as quickly as possible, so he wouldn't go easy on him. but he definetely whouldn't need to use all his power on him either. he only uses all his fighting strength when he's fighting some1 as strong or stronger than him, so of course he's gonna hold back a lil on some1 like batman who he knowes can't beat him. but if push came to shove and batman did something like try to use kryptonite or anything that whould tip the scale in his favor, superman would do whatever he had to to end the fight right there and than. even if it means wounding batman. not because he's cruel or anything, but simply out of self defense. and if you think supermans to nice to defend himself than you really don't no superman at all. so don't give us this bs about superman being to much of a nice guy to actually finish a fight w/ batman. cuz if he had reason enough to fight batman he'd have reason enough to end the fight as quickly as he could w/o killing batman

edit- oh, and batman would be thinking of a way to end it w/o killing superman as well. so if you think supermans unwillingness to kill batman gives batman some kinda advantage you don't know batmans character at all.

Venomfan

12-04-2008, 11:54 AM

Batman has trouble with the Joker, Two Face, Catwoman, Penguin etc.
Superman has trouble with Darkseid, Doomsday, etc

how long would batman last against Supermans villains vs. how long would Batmans villains last against Superman

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-04-2008, 01:13 PM

but has he beaten him more times?

Thats a good question that I dont have the answer to myself.

But after reading 23 pages of this thread nobody has posted a modern fight that Superman won while he was in control of himself.

The closest Superman win was one in which a "Future" Superman came back in time ,acting all emo and out of normal character, pulled a sneak attack and beat on Batman.

Which only proves what I've been saying.

Superman ,as he has been written over the past 20+ years, has not beaten Batman as he has been written over the past 20+ years.

Only under outside control or under extreme emotional conditions has he come close to beating Batman.

Now if anyone has other examples I'm more then willing to examine them.

and batman's not as tuff as he wants every1 to think. he wouldn't kill you or nothin,

He is willing and has planned to kill Superman if the need arises.

Not only that but durring the Armageddon 2001 story arc a future Batman did in fact "KILL" a future Superman that went bad.

and he wouldn't break your arm if he didn't need to.

Thats questionable.

There have been times that he broke arms when the bad guy gave up.

and superman has killed before when he's had to so he knows when not to be nice.

He's never come close to going that far with a non powered human.

but since you keep bringing up what's in the heroes character, remember;batman actually getting in a fist fight w/ some one who he calls his friend is more out of character than superman not holding back in a fight.

Just as I said you need to do some research on the characters in question.

Batman has been known to get into fist fights with those he calls "sons".He has gotten into fist fights with all 3 of his Robins.

Granted he may have held back a bit because he knew they were acting out but it doesnt change the fact that he faught them.

So its a hell of a lot more in character for Batman to fight those he calls friends.I can even remember a few times when he punched out Jim Gordan and one time he fired a "gun" at Jim Gordan.

Again he help back but he still did it.

So tell me......when was the last time that Superman punched a "un-powered" Jimmy Olson or fired his heat vision at ether Lois or Perry White????

Better yet when was the last time Superman rased a hand to hit ether Ma or Pa Kent.

If Batman is willing to fist fight or fire guns at friends and family I say he would be willing to fist fight a friend.

And more to the point Batman created plans to defeat and or kill the entire JLA.

He created the "Brother Eye" satalite program to spy on and track every super-human that he's aware of.

He created the "Omacs" to counter,defeat and kill every superhuman if needed.

You need to learn a bit about the character of Batman before you try to speak on whats in or out of character for him.

if superman had a good reason for fighting batman he'd end it as quickly as possible, so he wouldn't go easy on him

Looks like you need to research Supermans character as well.

Superman had a good reason to fight Batman in "The Dark Knight Returns" but he failed to end it quickly and even I would say that Superman was holding back....and it lead Superman to defeat.

but if push came to shove and batman did something like try to use kryptonite or anything that whould tip the scale in his favor, superman would do whatever he had to to end the fight right there and than.

Again Superman failer to do so in "TDNR" he also failed to do so in the Armageddon 2001 story arc under those same condistions you just posted.

and if you think supermans to nice to defend himself than you really don't no superman at all.

What I do know is that Superman has failed to do what you just suggest he would do on every encounter with Batman.

So let history be the judge of that.

so don't give us this bs about superman being to much of a nice guy to actually finish a fight w/ batman.

It is not bs...its evidence of history.

cuz if he had reason enough to fight batman he'd have reason enough to end the fight as quickly as he could w/o killing batman

Again he hasnt done it before when having a good reason to fight Batman.

edit- oh, and batman would be thinking of a way to end it w/o killing superman as well.

I'm sure he would but at the same time he wouldnt shy away from doing what he felt he needed to.

so if you think supermans unwillingness to kill batman gives batman some kinda advantage you don't know batmans character at all.

You have already proven not to have an understanding of these characters.

Batman has trouble with the Joker, Two Face, Catwoman, Penguin etc.
Superman has trouble with Darkseid, Doomsday, etc

how long would batman last against Supermans villains vs. how long would Batmans villains last against Superman

Thats completely irrelevant.

We're talking about how the characters would deal with each other not the others rougues.

And by the way, Batman pretty much defeated Darksied by threatening to destroy Apocalypse.

batman has also defeated Metalo a few times.

scatterax

12-04-2008, 08:56 PM

Not only that but durring the Armageddon 2001 story arc a future Batman did in fact "KILL" a future Superman that went bad.

but in the future. so it's non cannon.

He's never come close to going that far with a non powered human.

only because he knows he wouldn't have to. He's stronger than normal humans, including batman. so by saying he'd hold back against batman ur only proving my point on how far ahead of batman superman is ability wise.

Just as I said you need to do some research on the characters in question.

Batman has been known to get into fist fights with those he calls "sons".He has gotten into fist fights with all 3 of his Robins.

Granted he may have held back a bit because he knew they were acting out but it doesnt change the fact that he faught them.

So its a hell of a lot more in character for Batman to fight those he calls friends.I can even remember a few times when he punched out Jim Gordan and one time he fired a "gun" at Jim Gordan.

Again he help back but he still did it.

So tell me......when was the last time that Superman punched a "un-powered" Jimmy Olson or fired his heat vision at ether Lois or Perry White????

Better yet when was the last time Superman rased a hand to hit ether Ma or Pa Kent.

If Batman is willing to fist fight or fire guns at friends and family I say he would be willing to fist fight a friend.

And more to the point Batman created plans to defeat and or kill the entire JLA.

He created the "Brother Eye" satalite program to spy on and track every super-human that he's aware of.

He created the "Omacs" to counter,defeat and kill every superhuman if needed.

You need to learn a bit about the character of Batman before you try to speak on whats in or out of character for him.

you missed the whole point of what I was saying. I was saying that superman wouldn't hold back if he didn't need to. under normal circumstances he would hold back against batman cause, lets face it, batmans weak. but if for some strange reason batman became a threat, which would usually never happen w/o kryptonite. which is outlawed in this fight because batman can only use his usual. I mean, batman has special weapons for every heroe in the justice league, but that's not his usual. I'm talkin' the stuff he uses all the time like grappling hooks and batarangs. not stuff like bat-shark-repellant and kryptonite. Furthermore I'm not asking who would win in a particular issue of either of there comics. mostly because comic books are inconsistent overall. And who wins in the comic books is determined strictly by the writer. so depending on a riters bias any hero can beat any other hero. See for like half of the batman stories the writers challange is to come up w/ ways he can defeat villains like clayface and mr freeze. but for most of the superman stories the writers challenge is too come up w/ ways for the villain to somehow threaten superman. so of course when you look at how they've been writtin you'd find instances where superman gets beaten up by some1 weaker than him and where batman defeats some1 more powerful than him. but that's only to tell good stories, and doesn't allways have an accurate logic. Remember the idiotic crossover where batman beat the hulk?

Superman had a good reason to fight Batman in "The Dark Knight Returns" but he failed to end it quickly and even I would say that Superman was holding back....and it lead Superman to defeat.

Again Superman failer to do so in "TDNR" he also failed to do so in the Armageddon 2001 story arc under those same condistions you just posted.

so your really using a story where superman was weakened by a nucleur explosion, shot w/ a kryptonite arrow and lost to a armored up batman w/ a brief assistance by green arrow? or did that not happen in the dark knight returns???

well, since it's apparently ok to use alternate future versions of batman and superman I've got 2 words for you bub.

superboy prime!!

Venomfan

12-04-2008, 09:14 PM

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-04-2008, 10:49 PM

but in the future. so it's non cannon.

Boy you really cant be this dence....or maybe your just trying to reach for any point that might help you.

This fight we're talking about is not canon.

We're talking about a fantasy battle here and when doing so anything the character is personaly capable of doing is relivent to the debate.

Lost or once had powers are not relivent but a characters knowledge and personalty trates are relivent.

So the fact that a future Batman [from 10 years only I might add] killed a future Superman is a rellivent point to bring up because if his future version is capable of doing so then so is the present version.

Its an aspect of Batmans personalty.

only because he knows he wouldn't have to.

Nonsence.More then enough times Lex has had him on the brink of death and it was luck that saved Superman or Lex's stupidy.

Anyone of those times it would have been smarted to take out Lex but he has never been willing.

Just like he wouldnt with Batman.

you missed the whole point of what I was saying. I was saying that superman wouldn't hold back if he didn't need to.

Again there have been times that Superman needed to let lose on Lex the full range of his powers and he still did not.

And again Superman didnt let lose in TDKR's or Armegeden 2001 and in both case's he "NEEDED" too.

but if for some strange reason batman became a threat, which would usually never happen w/o kryptonite. which is outlawed in this fight because batman can only use his usual.

As I said Kryptonite is in his usaul bag of tricks.He almost always carries it and I'm sure he's devised a delivery system just as he can have his cars,planes and boats delievered to him.

Remember the idiotic crossover where batman beat the hulk?

Do you remember how logically it was done.

so your really using a story where superman was weakened by a nucleur explosion, shot w/ a kryptonite arrow and lost to a armored up batman w/ a brief assistance by green arrow? or did that not happen in the dark knight returns???

Yep I'm useing it because its in character for batman to plan for it to happen in that fachion.

As I keep telling you batman cheats, he will use any advantage he has,he will create advantages and he will exploite any and all weakness's.

And by the way, Batman already had Superman on the ropes by the time the kryptone arrow was used.

well, since it's apparently ok to use alternate future versions of batman and superman I've got 2 words for you bub.

superboy prime!!

Boy your really not that bright....ether that or you cant remember anything.

I already said like 10 times that Superboy Prime can beat Batman but Superman could not.

And BTW, I'm not useing the alternate versions to say "hah I proved my point" I'm useing them to establish the capabilities of the characters and their personalty traits.

i like batman when he's done well, but half the time in m opinion he's not. I've seen him get punched/thrown/kicked by guys with superman level strength so many times and he just gets up again, its so retarded

With that I can agree.

I personaly think that what they've done with Batman is pretty much the equil of what they did with Pre-crisis Superman.

Making him un-beatable.

And I personly have mixed feelings about it.

In 1 way its kind of afiming to think that the little guy can walk and dominate the big guys if he wanted but on the other hand it kinds of puts a damper on reading to comics because you sort of know the outcome before you open the book.

scatterax

12-05-2008, 12:52 AM

if you already admit this fight is non cannon why bother mentioning things that happened in comics that have little to do w/ batman vs superman?

And why the crap do you think batman has a kryptonite boat delivery system? are you dense???:hoboj:

scatterax

12-05-2008, 01:09 AM

you keap telling me that batman would cheat, and all I'm saying is in a fair fight, meaning nobody including batman cheats in the fight, superman would pound him to the ground. It's not a question of what's somebody's character, it's a simple question of who has the most fighting ability. I think that's superman. but do you honestly think batman could win w/o cheating? I know you prolly wanna bring up something that happened in the comics, but this is a hypothetical question. Just give me a yes or a know, because we obviously have different views on what we consider a fair fight. so humor me here..

scatterax

12-05-2008, 01:28 AM

i like batman when he's done well, but half the time in m opinion he's not. I've seen him get punched/thrown/kicked by guys with superman level strength so many times and he just gets up again, its so retarded

exactly. that's the stuff that's totally stupid and unrealistic. even by comic book standards. It's like they wanna put him up the strength-wise w/ most of the other dc characters. and imo that's the worst thing you can do to batman.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-05-2008, 03:15 AM

Do you even know how to follow a posting????

The answer to thes questions were in the very same post.

if you already admit this fight is non cannon why bother mentioning things that happened in comics that have little to do w/ batman vs superman?

Like I said I site them to show example of characterization,to show their behaviors,to point out personalty traits, to show their capabilities.

And why the crap do you think batman has a kryptonite boat delivery system? are you dense???:hoboj:

Your miswording what I said.

What I said is , "Do you think that a character like Batman, who has devised a way for his car,boat and planes to be delivered to him at the touch of a button in his belt, has not devised a delivery system for the Kyptonite if he needed it?????

Of course he would.Its in his character to do so.Ether by missal or by satalite Batman would devise a deliver system for the Kptonite.

you keap telling me that batman would cheat, and all I'm saying is in a fair fight,

As I keep telling you there's no way this could ever be called a fair fight.

Its David vrs Goliath plain and simple it could never be fair

meaning nobody including batman cheats in the fight,

Which would be out of character for Batman because he always cheats one way of the other.

If he didnt he'd be dead long ago.

superman would pound him to the ground.

Which would be out of character for Superman.

Why do you want these guys to act out of character?????

It's not a question of what's somebody's character, it's a simple question of who has the most fighting ability.

How do you figure???

The title of the topic is Batman Vs. Superman Who Would Win.

Not Some guy with Batmans gagets vrs some guy with Supermans powers.

In naming the characters the question does become about what the characters are willing to do.

I think that's superman. but do you honestly think batman could win w/o cheating? I know you prolly wanna bring up something that happened in the comics, but this is a hypothetical question. Just give me a yes or a know, because we obviously have different views on what we consider a fair fight. so humor me here..

Again since your nameing the characters then Batman will cheat.

There's no question about it.

Its the very nature of his character.

There's no way you can ask the question and name the characters with out expecting Batman to cheat.He does it every day.He takes every advantage he can find.

You cant ask a question about the characters and expect my to give you out of character answer.

exactly. that's the stuff that's totally stupid and unrealistic. even by comic book standards. It's like they wanna put him up the strength-wise w/ most of the other dc characters. and imo that's the worst thing you can do to batman.

With that I can agree with you.

As I said above

I personaly think that what they've done with Batman is pretty much the equil of what they did with Pre-crisis Superman.

Making him un-beatable.

And I personly have mixed feelings about it.

In 1 way its kind of afiming to think that the little guy can walk and dominate the big guys if he wanted but on the other hand it kinds of puts a damper on reading to comics because you sort of know the outcome before you open the book.

scatterax

12-05-2008, 02:49 PM

As I keep telling you there's no way this could ever be called a fair fight.

Its David vrs Goliath plain and simple it could never be fair

Which would be out of character for Batman because he always cheats one way of the other.

If he didnt he'd be dead long ago.

So your admitting he would lose w/o cheating. Good. Just making sure you still had your common sense.

So what it seems like to me is that your version of a fair fight is for batman to cheat to tip the scales in his favor. but in my view thats kinda an oxymoron. And saying that it can never be fair because superman is so much stronger just confirms that him beating superman is common sense. When you start letting batman use things like kryptonite than it becomes irrelevant, because it's not batmans brains that supermans fighting it's just his weakness that challenges him. lex luthor can beat superman w/ kryptonite, but that doesn't mean he'd win in a fight. the same goes for batman in my view. Btw, I don't think letting superman use all his powers is trying to tip the scale in his favor. I think taking them away is when you know that you have a bias for 1 character.

so even though it's clear that we don't agree on the rules of this fight am I correct in assuming your view as that batman can beat superman when he cheats to even the odds, but if batman didn't cheat than superman would win?

BlueLightning

12-05-2008, 04:29 PM

Cheating? That's wrong. If cheating is using gadgets, then superpowers is cheating too. Look at the Incredibles for example, Dash couldn´t use his powers in competition because it would be an unfair advantage.

Same applies on Smallville, when Clark was accepted on the Football team.

I will say this forever, strip them from his powers and gadgets. Then you can have a fair fight.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-05-2008, 11:06 PM

So your admitting he would lose w/o cheating. Good. Just making sure you still had your common sense.

I said that a long time ago.

I also said the its still a win in Batmans book.

So what it seems like to me is that your version of a fair fight is for batman to cheat to tip the scales in his favor.

Its not my version its how DC has been writting his character for the bast 20+ years.

And to be perfectly honest....can you really think of any other way that would allow for such a fight to truly be called "fair"??????

There is no other way for these to have a fair fight other then for Batman to create some advantages by cheating.

When you start letting batman use things like kryptonite than it becomes irrelevant,

Again it not me letting Batman use it, its DC that has given Batman the largest stock pile of the stuff that allows Batman to use it in a fight.

If you dont like that fact take it up with DC.

because it's not batmans brains that supermans fighting it's just his weakness that challenges him.

Actually it would be both.

Batman would have to find a way to lure Supes in close for the Kryptonite to have the best effect.

That takes brains.

I don't think letting superman use all his powers is trying to tip the scale in his favor. I think taking them away is when you know that you have a bias for 1 character.

Again take it up with DC....they gave Bats the ability and the tools to get the job done.

but if batman didn't cheat than superman would win?

But if Batman didnt cheat then we're not really talking about the character of Batman are we????
If cheating is using gadgets, then superpowers is cheating too.

Useing the gadgets isint cheating but how and why you use them may be.

I will say this forever, strip them from his powers and gadgets. Then you can have a fair fight.

Even that may not result in a "fair fight".

Think about letting a Pit bull fight a Chiwawa.

When it comes to fighting skill Batman would be the Pit Bull.

scatterax

12-05-2008, 11:58 PM

I said that a long time ago.

I also said the its still a win in Batmans book.

Its not my version its how DC has been writting his character for the bast 20+ years.

And to be perfectly honest....can you really think of any other way that would allow for such a fight to truly be called "fair"??????

There is no other way for these to have a fair fight other then for Batman to create some advantages by cheating.

Again it not me letting Batman use it, its DC that has given Batman the largest stock pile of the stuff that allows Batman to use it in a fight.

If you dont like that fact take it up with DC.

Actually it would be both.

Batman would have to find a way to lure Supes in close for the Kryptonite to have the best effect.

That takes brains.

Again take it up with DC....they gave Bats the ability and the tools to get the job done.

But if Batman didnt cheat then we're not really talking about the character of Batman are we????

Useing the gadgets isint cheating but how and why you use them may be.

Even that may not result in a "fair fight".

Think about letting a Pit bull fight a Chiwawa.

When it comes to fighting skill Batman would be the Pit Bull.

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/SupermanChokingBatman.jpg

just because some1s stronger does not mean the fights fair. an unfair fight is fight where both combatants have a set of rules, and they follow it. Jus because supermans the pitbull and batmans the chiwawa (and i do think supes is the pit bull in this case)doesn't mean you get to tip the scale in batmans favor.

and quit trying to make it a character study. it's not as complicated a fight as you think when nobody's allowed to cheat.

Than again who am I kidding. At this point our arguements are getting more repetitive and none of us is going to change their minds. I've said what I wanna say and you've said what you wanted to say, lets just agree to dissagree.

BlueLightning

12-05-2008, 11:59 PM

Even that may not result in a "fair fight".

Think about letting a Pit bull fight a Chiwawa.

When it comes to fighting skill Batman would be the Pit Bull.
Now you get my point.

AnorexicBatman

12-06-2008, 01:20 AM

Hasn't anyone considered a battle of wits?
C'mon, after Bats humiliates Superman, boy scout punches him simply out of spite...

Captain Kirk

12-06-2008, 01:25 AM

Hasn't anyone considered a battle of wits?
C'mon, after Bats humiliates Superman, boy scout punches him simply out of spite...Superman is way smarter than Batman! Super-intellect you know!:whatever:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-06-2008, 05:30 AM

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/SupermanChokingBatman.jpg

Funny you put that picture up....Superman lost that fight:woot:

Jus because supermans the pitbull and batmans the chiwawa (and i do think supes is the pit bull in this case)doesn't mean you get to tip the scale in batmans favor.

You need to learn how to follow post a bit better.

That was in responce to the idea of taking away Sups powers and Bats gadgets.

In a case like that Bats is the Pit bull because of his years in fighting training.

and quit trying to make it a character study.

Again the name of the topic is "Batman Vs. Superman Who Would Win"

In nameing the characters alone makes it a character study.

it's not as complicated a fight as you think when nobody's allowed to cheat.

And again...if Batman doesn't cheat he's not acting in character.

Than again who am I kidding. At this point our arguements are getting more repetitive and none of us is going to change their minds. I've said what I wanna say and you've said what you wanted to say, lets just agree to dissagree.

Thats fine by me.

Now you get my point.

Yep
Superman is way smarter than Batman! Super-intellect you know!:whatever:

As I said before " Super-intellect" went out of continuity with the first crisis.

Even thou their starting to being back many of his pre-crisis stats " Super-intellect" hasnt come back yet.

Captain Kirk

12-06-2008, 09:18 AM

Funny you put that picture up....Superman lost that fight:woot:

No he didn't! The only thing that saved Batman from getting smashed with a car was Catwoman pushing Lois from that building. Supes had Bats pissing in his tights.:hehe:

As I said before " Super-intellect" went out of continuity with the first crisis.

Even thou their starting to being back many of his pre-crisis stats " Super-intellect" hasnt come back yet.Sorry but you are wrong again. Go back and read the Up, Up and Away tpb. It explains that when Superman's powers are restored after the OYL event he gains new powers like super-intellect!:yay:

BlueLightning

12-06-2008, 08:03 PM

It maybe has superintellect in the sense that you have to control his powers, but not on a deductive level like Bruce.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-07-2008, 04:18 AM

Sorry but you are wrong again.

Again????? Where else did you prove me wrong????

Go back and read the Up, Up and Away tpb. It explains that when Superman's powers are restored after the OYL event he gains new powers like super-intellect!:yay:

I'll look it up as soon as I get a chance.

But regardless.....I've seen no evidence of Superman displaying any sort of super-intellect so maybe its a developing power.

And even at that there's no real reason to assume that "super-intellect" is beyond the capabilities of a normal human.

It would only mean that Supes has by nature that which normal humans have to work hard to develope.

And theres no mention of Sups gaining "super-intellect" on the DC Database entree for New Earth Superman.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(New_Earth)

Granted I dont always put my faith in such sites but that have been pretty up to date and I would thing if "super-intellect" had been brought back into continuity they would have some mention of it.

Captain Kirk

12-07-2008, 07:32 AM

Again????? Where else did you prove me wrong????

I'll look it up as soon as I get a chance.

But regardless.....I've seen no evidence of Superman displaying any sort of super-intellect so maybe its a developing power.

And even at that there's no real reason to assume that "super-intellect" is beyond the capabilities of a normal human.

It would only mean that Supes has by nature that which normal humans have to work hard to develope.

And theres no mention of Sups gaining "super-intellect" on the DC Database entree for New Earth Superman.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(New_Earth)

Granted I dont always put my faith in such sites by that have been pretty up to date and I would thing if "super-intellect" had been brought back into continuity they would have some mention of it.Just trust me! If you have not read Up, Up, and Away then you need to. Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns collaborated on the story and it's great. At the end Superman talks about how his mind has sped up and he can process info much quicker. It's a good read:yay:

dnno1

12-07-2008, 11:02 AM

...But regardless.....I've seen no evidence of Superman displaying any sort of super-intellect so maybe its a developing power.

And even at that there's no real reason to assume that "super-intellect" is beyond the capabilities of a normal human.

It would only mean that Supes has by nature that which normal humans have to work hard to develope.

And theres no mention of Sups gaining "super-intellect" on the DC Database entree for New Earth Superman.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(New_Earth)

Granted I dont always put my faith in such sites by that have been pretty up to date and I would thing if "super-intellect" had been brought back into continuity they would have some mention of it.

The DC wikia is not necessarily the authority on Superman (although it does have extensive infomation about the character and his different interpretations. This new Post Infinite Chrisis (PIC) Superman has an origin that has yet to be told and we will have to see if they include a Super intellect. It really seems that they want to merge the mythos of the Superman films with that of the Silver Age and Post Crisis Supermen. That would imply that he would have some type of super-intellect/vast knoweldge that was partly learned from Jor-El as a child (from the crystals). Keep in mind that prior to Infinite Crisis, he did develop tesseract space and was able to store his entire fortress into a portable globe.

Franklin Richards

12-07-2008, 11:09 AM

Let me ask this question.

Captain America vs. Thor.

Who would win?

Once you come to the conclusion that Cap would lose you must realize that Bats would lose too.

:doom: :doom: :doom:

Venomfan

12-07-2008, 07:57 PM

Let me ask this question.

Captain America vs. Thor.

Who would win?

Once you come to the conclusion that Cap would lose you must realize that Bats would lose too.

:doom: :doom: :doom:
thats almost a more fair fight just because Captain America has better phsyical abilities than Batman.

one thing i don't get about Batman though is how he's supposed to be the smart good guy in the DC universe. You've got guys that are from these high tech super advanced galaxies and they are all dumber then Batman. I mean on the Justice League there is no way Batman should be the "brains" when you've got guys like J'onn on it.

it is said a lot that Batman is the greatest detective, but what about the Question? if you ask me he should be a better detective. Batman to me is more of a jack of all trades, not the best at everything but good at everything. Like Wildcat or someone should be a better fighter since thats his schtick, Lex is smarter cuz thats his thing, Questions a better detective cuz thats his thing etc.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-07-2008, 11:15 PM

Just trust me! If you have not read Up, Up, and Away then you need to. Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns collaborated on the story and it's great. At the end Superman talks about how his mind has sped up and he can process info much quicker. It's a good read:yay:

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt since I havent read it yet....but

A] they havent shown any evidence of a super intelect
B] a sped up mind and quicker process [your words] is not evidence of a super intellect or that he has surpassed Batmans intellect.

Althou he may develop pass Batman he hasnt proven to yet.

The DC wikia is not necessarily the authority on Superman

Didn't I pretty much allude to that in my post??????

Granted I dont always put my faith in such sites

Yep I did.:woot:

Let me ask this question.

Captain America vs. Thor.

Who would win?

Once you come to the conclusion that Cap would lose you must realize that Bats would lose too.

:doom: :doom: :doom:

Every time you try these analogies you fail.

In Avengers #4, the first meating of Captain America's and the Avengers [consisting of Giant Man,the Wasp,Ironman and Thor, Captain America fought the entire team of Avengers till a stand still.

Thor couldnt even touch Captain America after throwing his hammer at him.

And besides that Captain Americas has defeated the Hulk....and the Hulk has defeated Thor more then enough times.

On top of that Captain Americas is capable of lifting and useing Mjollnir which would be a great disadvantage to Thor if cap got his hands on it.

Venomfan

12-08-2008, 12:22 AM

Every time you try these analogies you fail.

In Avengers #4, the first meating of Captain America's and the Avengers [consisting of Giant Man,the Wasp,Ironman and Thor, Captain America fought the entire team of Avengers till a stand still.

Thor couldnt even touch Captain America after throwing his hammer at him.

And besides that Captain Americas has defeated the Hulk....and the Hulk has defeated Thor more then enough times.

On top of that Captain Americas is capable of lifting and useing Mjollnir which would be a great disadvantage to Thor if cap got his hands on it.

see this is the kind of crap that i hate. this is just plain bad writing. don't tell me Captain America is only peak human when he does stuff like this all the time

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-08-2008, 12:53 AM

see this is the kind of crap that i hate. this is just plain bad writing. don't tell me Captain America is only peak human when he does stuff like this all the time

Oh I agree with you 100%.

Its not very consistent with what they claim are his limits.

But the fact remains that he did all of this.

Kevin Smith

12-08-2008, 05:24 PM

dnno1

12-09-2008, 09:14 AM

http://hotrodding.us/images/wallpaper/batmobile/supermanbatmobile.jpg

Ultimate_Superman

12-09-2008, 10:33 AM

Funny you put that picture up....Superman lost that fight:woot:

Umm no he didn't that fight was stopped when Superman was about to kill Batman because Catwoman was about to throw Lois off a building if not for that Batman would have been dead then. Also if you want to pick that fight back up during Superman: Sacrifice he owned Batman and almost killed him in under a min. Had it not been for the purple ray Batman would be dead.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-09-2008, 05:43 PM

Umm no he didn't that fight was stopped when Superman was about to kill Batman because Catwoman was about to throw Lois off a building if not for that Batman would have been dead then.

And who sent Catwoman to the Daily Planet with instructions to kidnap one of the workers in the reporters den???????

Batman did...hence it was a winning tactic and a win in his book.

As I said before.....Batman would use your loved ones againest you in a fight....just as he did in Hush.

Also if you want to pick that fight back up during Superman: Sacrifice he owned Batman and almost killed him in under a min. Had it not been for the purple ray Batman would be dead.

Why is is that none of you Superman supporters can find a single case of Superman beating Batman when both characters were in control of them selfs or not under the influance of someone elses or something elses control????

Every example I've posted of Bat's winning both characters were in control of them selfs.

In Superman: Sacrifice, Superman was under the control of Max Lord and believed he was fighting Brainiac not Batman.

Sup's used tactics that he believed would defeet Brainiac....he would never used those in a fight with Batman.

scatterax

12-09-2008, 10:56 PM

blksuperman2

12-10-2008, 01:02 AM

Why is is that none of you Superman supporters can find a single case of Superman beating Batman when both characters were in control of them selfs or not under the influance of someone elses or something elses control????

I'm probably one of the few Superman supporters that actually agree w/ most of your points but why would these 2 be fighting if one wasn't in control by another influence??? :huh:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-10-2008, 01:27 AM

um, so batman calling getting catwoman to help him means he's the 1 who 1? I'd say you need to give catwoman credit too man. just cause it wasn't her idea doesn't mean she didn't do anything.:whatever:

Batmans the "General" Catwoman is a soldier..

edit- and from reading the ur guy's post, batman only tied at most.

Batman manipulated that fight to his desired outcome.

Thats a win for him.

I'm probably one of the few Superman supporters that actually agree w/ most of your points but why would these 2 be fighting if one wasn't in control by another influence??? :huh:

I completly agree that that these two fighting while in control of them selfs wouldnt be a common place thing.

But I didnt start this topic and the op never set down a critira so you left with an open range of possibilites.

And I know of a few fight they had were both were in control of them selfs, The Dark Knight Returns,The Dark Knight Strikes again,Armageddon 2001.

In each case they were in control of them selfs and Batman came out on top.

Althu in Armageddon 2001 Superman seemed to be suffering from the effects of depresion from not saving Lois but he wasnt under the control of a third party.

blksuperman2

12-10-2008, 02:56 AM

I completly agree that that these two fighting while in control of them selfs wouldnt be a common place thing.

But I didnt start this topic and the op never set down a critira so you left with an open range of possibilites.

And I know of a few fight they had were both were in control of them selfs, The Dark Knight Returns,The Dark Knight Strikes again,Armageddon 2001.

In each case they were in control of them selfs and Batman came out on top.

Althu in Armageddon 2001 Superman seemed to be suffering from the effects of depresion from not saving Lois but he wasnt under the control of a third party.

IMO TDKR and most of Frank Miller's Batman stuff shouldn't be used as proof as to how Batman would or wouldn't fair up against Supes. Miller has stated numerous times how he distains Superman and always thought that Batman was a better character. He's also the first one to change the character dynamic of the Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent angle and pretty much made the 2 characters dislike each other.

Supes was in control of himself but was still manipulated into confronted Bats which really isn't in his character.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-10-2008, 07:09 AM

IMO TDKR and most of Frank Miller's Batman stuff shouldn't be used as proof as to how Batman would or wouldn't fair up against Supes.

I only use those examples for tactical purpose's.

The tactics imployed by Batman in those situations are very much in character for Batman

Miller has stated numerous times how he distains Superman and always thought that Batman was a better character.

I think thats a bit of an over statement but I can see your point.

He's also the first one to change the character dynamic of the Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent angle and pretty much made the 2 characters dislike each other.

True enough but it was a logical move.

Only in a fairy tail would two characters like Batman and Superman, with views of the world and justice that differ so much, be the best of friends.

Dont get me wrong I too like it when there friends but in the real world, to expect these 2 to be real friends wold be like having the head of the KKK be friends with Louis Farrakhan.

Supes was in control of himself but was still manipulated into confronted Bats which really isn't in his character.

I dont completely agree.

Superman was perfectly willing to stop Batman from taking down the Joker in "A Death in the Family" simple because a FBI agent and the President said that Joker had diplomatic imunuty.

scatterax

12-10-2008, 10:29 AM

Batmans the "General" Catwoman is a soldier..

Batman manipulated that fight to his desired outcome.

Thats a win for him.

I didn't know he desired to be beaten an inch from his life:whatever:

but I still haven't read that story u guys r talking about, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Union Jack

12-10-2008, 11:10 AM

batman does not stand a chance at all against superman.
In an all out fight no holds barred batman doesn't hold a candle to supes..and he knows this..he uses supes innate goodness and honour against him.
all superman has to do is move at super speed,freeze breath heat vision super strength..nah bats can't do nowt to that.
in a fight which is bats gone rogue over the superman who we know to be good and stuff bats does stand a chance cos superman is too honourable to fight to the death or do real damage.
but ina no holds barred superman all the way.

i'd like to see a time when bats goes to that famed utility belt and finds he aint brought that particular gadget with him...

Mr.LethalWeapon

12-10-2008, 01:15 PM

Bear in mind, that it's entirely possible to prepare for a battle and still get soundly defeated.

When someone is an underdog, it means he or she is more likely to lose.

Edit: In addition, I remember Superman acknowledging Batman as the most dangerous man in the world. Given that, I'd say he'd be less likely to hold back, not more.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-10-2008, 02:56 PM

I didn't know he desired to be beaten an inch from his life:whatever:

but I still haven't read that story u guys r talking about, so I guess it doesn't matter.

If were still talking about the "Hush" story.......

Superman was under the control of Poison Ivy.

Batman needed a way to slow Superman down and stop him.

Killing his friend would have been his last option......so he stalled long enough for his plan to free Superman of Ivy's control worked.

he uses supes innate goodness and honour against him.

And that right there gives Batman his chance.
Edit: In addition, I remember Superman acknowledging Batman as the most dangerous man in the world. Given that, I'd say he'd be less likely to hold back, not more.

Superman has also said that Batman is as close to him as any brother can be...... Given that, I'd say he'd be more likely to hold back in a fight with his "Brother", not less

Venomfan

12-10-2008, 05:38 PM

how did superman beat batman within an inch of his life or w/e?
same with the time that someone said about supes thinking batman was brainiac? if supes thought he was fighting brainiac he'd be hitting him hard wouldnt he?

i mean if superman is controlled he'd just poke batman in the head and the dudes dead. was it one of those dumb stories where supes is punching and throwing batman around yet batman keeps getting up?

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-10-2008, 10:52 PM

same with the time that someone said about supes thinking batman was brainiac? if supes thought he was fighting brainiac he'd be hitting him hard wouldnt he?

i mean if superman is controlled he'd just poke batman in the head and the dudes dead. was it one of those dumb stories where supes is punching and throwing batman around yet batman keeps getting up?

Logic dictates that is Superman were being controlled by a 3rd party, then Superman would do what ever that 3rd party wanted.

And the simple fact is that Maxwell Lord was in control of Superman and alter his thought to make Superman believe that he was fighting Brainiac and not Batman.

Why Superman didnt kill Batman could be as simple as the fact that Max Lord maybe didnt want Batman dead and made sure that Superman didnt kill him.

scatterax

12-10-2008, 11:53 PM

Logic dictates that is Superman were being controlled by a 3rd party, then Superman would do what ever that 3rd party wanted.

And the simple fact is that Maxwell Lord was in control of Superman and alter his thought to make Superman believe that he was fighting Brainiac and not Batman.

Why Superman didnt kill Batman could be as simple as the fact that Max Lord maybe didnt want Batman dead and made sure that Superman didnt kill him.

did he punch batman in that fight?

blksuperman2

12-11-2008, 02:14 AM

I have the Superman issue where Supes believes that Brainiac has held Perry White, Jimmy & Lois hostage under water in tubes. Somehow while trying to save them he ends of killing them all. He freaks out and takes his dispair out on Brainiac. Once he's done pounding on what he thought was Brainiac it shows him back in the FoS w/ his hands all bloody and he realizes that it wasn't Brainiac at all.

I honestly have never read the subsequent issues but from what I've been told it was actually Batman that Supes was punching. Really doesn't make sense to me that a being that can lift mountains wouldn't have utterly destroyed a human but that's the joy of make believe characters. They can do whatever the writers want them to.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-11-2008, 03:41 AM

did he punch batman in that fight?

Yes.

But before you post your next statement read on.........

Really doesn't make sense to me that a being that can lift mountains wouldn't have utterly destroyed a human

It doesnt make sense to me ether but there is a logical out in this particular case.

Superman was under the complete control of Max Lord.

All of his senses were also under Max's control.There was nothing about what Superman was seeing ,smelling, felling or hearing that Max couldnt distort.

So its not hard to believe that Max made sure that Superman didnt use and lethal force in the attack.

If Max could have such complete control over what Superman thought was happening then he could have also controlled the part of Superman's brain that governs muscle function.

blksuperman2

12-11-2008, 04:16 AM

It doesnt make sense to me ether but there is a logical out in this particular case.

Superman was under the complete control of Max Lord.

All of his senses were also under Max's control.There was nothing about what Superman was seeing ,smelling, felling or hearing that Max couldnt distort.

So its not hard to believe that Max made sure that Superman didnt use and lethal force in the attack.

If Max could have such complete control over what Superman thought was happening then he could have also controlled the part of Superman's brain that governs muscle function.

Fair enough. I can buy that explanation.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-11-2008, 05:04 AM

Fair enough. I can buy that explanation.

One is glad to be of service:woot:

Ultimate_Superman

12-11-2008, 06:56 AM

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-11-2008, 07:13 AM

If you really want to see a fight between Superman and Batman one on one read Lex Luthor Man of Steel that is how a fight between the two would go down. All the other times Batman "beat" Superman he had to get help Superman has always done it by himself. In Lex Luthor Superman beat Batman in his hometown no less.

Well if I'm right that story was supposed to take place early in their carriers.

One wouldnt expect Batman to know as much about Superman or to know what he might need to know to beat Superman soon after they first met.

But that book was very well written and I cant believe it slipped my mind.

scatterax

12-11-2008, 11:22 AM

Yes.

But before you post your next statement read on.........

It doesnt make sense to me ether but there is a logical out in this particular case.

Superman was under the complete control of Max Lord.

All of his senses were also under Max's control.There was nothing about what Superman was seeing ,smelling, felling or hearing that Max couldnt distort.

So its not hard to believe that Max made sure that Superman didnt use and lethal force in the attack.

If Max could have such complete control over what Superman thought was happening then he could have also controlled the part of Superman's brain that governs muscle function.

so according to you superman was holding still holding back, and he 1 after all. so whether or not he was under control doesn't make much differnce. I mean if the guy who controlled him could allso hold back enough not to kill him and still beat him senseless why wouldn't superman be able to do that when he wasn't under his control.

but than again i still don't get why yuo'd make superman hold back if you wanted him to fight sum1?

also, if batman has access to the worlds largest supply of krytonite at all times, why didn't he think to use it? (my answer is cause he doesn't have access to it at all times.)

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-11-2008, 12:36 PM

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p192/sto_vo_kor_2000/Comic%20Books/DC%20Superheroes/Batman%20family/Live%20action/94260412sf9.jpg

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-13-2008, 01:56 AM

so according to you superman was holding still holding back,

Not according to me....I said it was the only logical conclusion that could be reached that would explain why Batman still had a head on his shoulders.

and he 1 after all. so whether or not he was under control doesn't make much differnce.

Excuse me?????

I mean if the guy who controlled him could allso hold back enough not to kill him and still beat him senseless why wouldn't superman be able to do that when he wasn't under his control.

You just dont follow post very well.

While under control Superman launched a sneak attack, he just came out of no where and started attacking who he thought was Brainiac.

If Superman were under his own control he would never have launched such a vicues sneak attack.Its not in his nature.

but than again i still don't get why yuo'd make superman hold back if you wanted him to fight sum1?

What do you meen by "why would I make Superman hold back"?????

And I can ask you the same kind of question.

Why would you want to pit Batman in a fight with someone and not allow him to use all his tools,intelligence, stratigy,planning and what ever he is well known to be capable of?????

also, if batman has access to the worlds largest supply of krytonite at all times, why didn't he think to use it?

To begin with I never said Batman has "to the worlds largest supply of krytonite at all times".

I said he has it stored in the cave and can uitilize it anytime he wants.I said he has proven to carry some almost at all times, and I said that he has most likely devised a way to have some delievered to where ever he need it by some kind of means.

He has proven to have such tech and he has porven to think that far ahead.

Now to answer your question.......

The attack was too fast, too sudden,to ruthless and with out much of a chance to do anything.

The very kind of attack that you have been suggesting all this time....but like I said it happened while under the control of a 3rd party.

(my answer is cause he doesn't have access to it at all times.)

You like to make comments and judments about these characters but you have almost no basic knowlidge of the history and events in these characters lives.

The events of that attack took place "BEFORE" Batman came into possession of the largest supply of krytonite.

Batman only recently, earlier this year, collected the Kryptonite with Supermans help I might add.

The sneak attack on Batman by a Max Lord controlled Superman took place close to 2 years ago.

Althou I'm sure he had an ample supply of Kryptonite some where in the cave durring the attack, as I pointed out the attack was too sudden and quick for Batman to respond.

Mostpowerful

12-13-2008, 02:34 AM

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p192/sto_vo_kor_2000/Comic%20Books/DC%20Superheroes/Batman%20family/Live%20action/94260412sf9.jpg

AWESOME! :yay: :super::batty:= WF

scatterax

12-13-2008, 02:50 AM

I meant why would max lord bother to make superman fight batman if he was just gonna make him hold back.

and about how you said superman attacked to fast for batman to react, that's exactly what I was trying to explain to you when I said batman couldn't beat superman w/ 4ever and a day of planning and prep time. the fight would be over b4 battie could come up w/ a winning strategy. prep time's for people who pose as fighting experts. so if he was as good a fighting expert as you claim, he'd be able to win w/o it. I mean we ain't talkin some hyped up commercialized heavy weight boxing match. this hypothetical match is more along the lines of a bar fight. (but picture it in urban streets.)

and you said superman was holding back in that fight anyway, so don't change ur story and try to tell me that he wouldn't attack as hard as he did if he had control of his mind.

scatterax

12-13-2008, 02:57 AM

AWESOME! :yay: :super::batty:= WF

sure is.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-13-2008, 03:45 AM

AWESOME! :yay: :super::batty:= WF

Yeah its pretty cool.

I meant why would max lord bother to make superman fight batman if he was just gonna make him hold back.

There's only 2 ways to answer that question.

1] you need an understanding of his character
2] read the story in question

and about how you said superman attacked to fast for batman to react, that's exactly what I was trying to explain to you

I understand that and what you keep failing to understand is that its not in Supermans nature, its not in his character to attack a friend like that if he was in control of himself.

so if he was as good a fighting expert as you claim, he'd be able to win w/o it.

Nonsence.

Every great fighter studies his oponates fighting skills and capabilities by watching old fights on tape.

He then plans a strategy based on what he's learned from that.

Every football choach studies the opposing teems capabilites from watching them play, he then plans a winning stratigy based on what he's learned.

Thats called prep time.

Its part of being a great fighter or a coach or a leader.

I mean we ain't talkin some hyped up commercialized heavy weight boxing match. this hypothetical match is more along the lines of a bar fight. (but picture it in urban streets.)

I fail to see how it makes much of a difference.

Batman has studied Superman for close to 15 years [their time] already.

The prep time is already in.

You keep changing the critria of the fight just to see if it proves your argument and it doesnt.

and you said superman was holding back in that fight anyway,

Actually what I said is that it would seem that Max had Superman holding back because Batman should be dead if Superman hit Batman as hard as he would normally hit Brainic.

You really should try to follow whats been written.

so don't change ur story and try to tell me that he wouldn't attack as hard as he did if he had control of his mind.

Who's changing anything???

Superman has never, and I repeat "NEVER", proven to hit a normal human the way he would hit one of his superpowered enimys.

He has never, and I repeat "NEVER", proven to attack a normal human they way he would attack one of his superpowerd enimeys.

Its not in his character to do so.

Again if you dont like it..... take it up with DC comics.

Thats how they've been writting Superman for over the past 20 years.

Stop crying about it and accept it.

Every single argument you have put forth would have the characters action out of character, would be limiting Batman, and would be fixing the fight.

All your reasoning are based on your opinion that Superman is the "Superior" man placing powers far above the intelligence, training, strategy,intuition, capabilities,knowledge, will power,invention and determination.

Not to mention that Batman has the knowledge of what Supermans weaknesses are, access to materials needed to make wepons to capatilize on those weaknesses, the tools to get the job done and is willing to do what ever, and I repeat "WHAT EVER", it takes to do it.

All of these are as essential to Batmans character as Flying speed and what ever are essential parts of Supermans character.

But you would limit Batmans capabilites for the sake of streanghting your case,You would limit him acsess to his tools, you would limit him accsess to the materials he is known to have stored and you would also go as far as to suggest that he's not allowed the prep time.

Something he's had years of already in preperation of a possible fight with Superman.

And why????So you can stack the odds in Supermans favor, as if they werent already.

You've failed to prove your point.

Others here have provided some logical points in Superman favor but yours are full of opinion and dont have a leg to stand on.

scatterax

12-13-2008, 02:08 PM

Yeah its pretty cool.

I understand that and what you keep failing to understand is that its not in Supermans nature, its not in his character to attack a friend like that if he was in control of himself.

he has never, and I repeat "NEVER", proven to attack a normal human they way he would attack one of his superpowerd enimeys.

Its not in his character to do so.

Again if you dont like it..... take it up with DC comics.

Thats how they've been writting Superman for over the past 20 years.

Stop crying about it and accept it.

of course it's out of character for superman to hit a normal human being. this whole fight is out of character. but I'm saying if something pushed superman over the edge enough to do something out of character enough as fighting 1 of his allies, he'd make decisions and be doing other stuff he normally wouldn't choose to do as a side effect of being pushed so hard. superman would avoid a conflict w/ batman if he could. (out fear of accidentally hurting batman to much, and not fear of batman hurting him, incase you where wondering) but this is if superman was mad enough to fight batman, and vice versa, so most of what superman would and would not do if he was acting calm and like his usual self is pretty much irrelevant.

w/ that in mind the outcome of this fight seems little more random, and a little less predictable doesn't it?

now as far as superman holding back, I do believe even if he was angry he wouldn't hit or hurt batman enough to, say, cripple him or kill him, but if you really think that's how far he'd have to go to win a fight w/ batman you are seriously over estimating batmans chances.

but as far as prep time goes, this is a whould be fight that happens on the fly, meaning batman wouldn't have time to time to prepare his vast suply of kryptonite for using against superman, and that he wouldn't have time to prepare a red sun room, or take louis hostage, or plant bombs in the fortress of solitude, or bring green arrow, or robin, or any other dc character along to help him, or build a super armor suit, or use anything else to win that he normally wouldn't cary in his belt if he was just going out on patrol or something.

he still has his ability to strategize, his intelligence, his utiliy belt full of batterangs, a grappling hook, and what else he NORMALLY caries w/ him. he just has to improvise, instead of plan ahead for this fight.

and I know what ur gonna say, and no, this ISN'T to limit batman's abilities. it's only to help eliminate the random factor

but don't forget superman has intelligence, strategy,intuition, capabilities,knowledge, will power,invention and determination too. sure not as much as batie in some areas. but he still has enough intelligence to compete w/ batman. now he doesn't have enough intelligence to win w/o powers against batman, but guess what, he does have powers. and alot of them too. his fisical ability is on a whole new level compared to batmans. batman would break his hand w/ b4 he ever punched supes hard enough to actually hert him. once you stop crying and accept the fact that batman can't even phase superman, I'm sure it'll make much more sense to you why he would lose to superman.

now as for what HAS happened in comic issues. believe it or not, I don't consider crossover stories to be 100% accurate. now b4 you start jabbering on about how "comics the best examples of who would win this fight", that's not necessarily the case. see, the outcome of a fight is based solely on who the writer is, and who he wants to win. also on the story he's trying to tell. all that means that most of the fights are both unpredictable and irrelevant. And this is why I think that; because of the conditions the writer always has to follow. 1: it has to be a good fight. I mean, who wants to see a fight ended in 1 punch? so in order to make the fight more interesting they have to even the odds more. this is the main reason cross over fights are irrelevant.

whenever you see batman get punched hard enough to get thrown accross the room, and get back up like it was any other "normal", or human strength punch, it's the writer trying to make batman an even match for supermans physical powers. when ever batman uses kryptonite, or red solar rays, or anything happens to weaken superman, it's just the writer wanting to bring superman down to batmans level. whenever batman has a friend help him fight superman, or uses some tool that gives him extra abilitys like a suit of armor, it's the writers trying to give superman enough of a challenge to warrant a longer fight.

now, the second reason these crossover stories are irrelevant is, well because of the stories themselves. if the goal is to show what would happen if superman went out of control, he'd prolly end up slaughtering batman, and would fly off to fight sum1 else as soon as he did. if it's to show batman as a hero who can win fights just as easy as any other powered up hero he'd prolly win. it's the circumstances of the individual stories that I have a problem w/. Like if they make superman under mind control, you can ignore the story. if they give batman resilience to attacks than any normal human would have. forget about it. if they make 1 of the characters evil, 4get about it. so on so forth.

this fight, in order to truly be definitive, must have all the random factors removed. So that means no preptime in the batcave for batman, and no angry superman. and it can't be in anybody's home court. but ur prolly wonderin, "under what circumstances would there ever be a fight where batman wouldn't prepare in his batcave, or that superman would be angry enough to fight 1 of his friends w/ out being angry?" or "how is this fight even possible w/o 1 of them not acting like thmaselves, or w/ 1 of them turning eveil or be under mind control" well my answer to that is this...

]the only fair fight that has all the random factors removed (which would include preptime, mind control, raging superman), and is still in character for both, is if it was.... a practice fight!

now, that may sound anti climatic, or boring to some of you, but that really is the best, fairest way to see who would win imo. i don't think it's outa character.

so the conditions are this: they're just sparring in the justice leagues equivalent of the danger room. only w/ lasers and crap shooting at them. just a giant metal room w/ a flat surface, a ceiling, but alot of open space. (well, about 4 stories of open space that is) superman IS holding back. after all, it's just practice. batmans not using any kryptonite, or any thing that could seriously weaken or hurt supes. after all, it is just practice.

so who wins in that case? I'd say superman. what do you think?

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-13-2008, 04:06 PM

this whole fight is out of character.

Not nessesarily.

These two have had reason to fight in the past while still in character.

but I'm saying if something pushed superman over the edge enough to do something out of character enough as fighting 1 of his allies, he'd make decisions and be doing other stuff he normally wouldn't choose to do as a side effect of being pushed so hard.

Thats about the first thing that you have said that makes 100% sence......no insult intended.

superman would avoid a conflict w/ batman if he could. (out fear of accidentally hurting batman to much, and not fear of batman hurting him, incase you where wondering)

Funny because Superman has expressed a fear of Batman and what he could do if pushed.

but this is if superman was mad enough to fight batman, and vice versa, so most of what superman would and would not do if he was acting calm and like his usual self is pretty much irrelevant.

Who said that would be the case????

The original poster of this thread did not lay down any rules to govern the course of the fight.

w/ that in mind the outcome of this fight seems little more random, and a little less predictable doesn't it?

Not in my eyes.

now as far as superman holding back, I do believe even if he was angry he wouldn't hit or hurt batman enough to, say, cripple him or kill him,

I can see that.

but if you really think that's how far he'd have to go to win a fight w/ batman you are seriously over estimating batmans chances.

No your seriously under estimating Batman chances.

Batman would be willing to criple himself to stop Superman if it were needed.

Superman would have to be willing to go that far to stop him.

but as far as prep time goes, this is a whould be fight that happens on the fly,

Again who are you to dictate the course of this fight????

No critera was set by the original poster.

This is just you trying to manipulate the situation again to achieve your desired outcome.

meaning batman wouldn't have time to time to prepare his vast suply of kryptonite for using against superman, and that he wouldn't have time to prepare a red sun room,

Both are surry prepered at all times.

The only thing Batman would have to figure out would be "how to spring the trap"

or take louis hostage,

Taking Lois hostage last time was on the fly...as you call it.

If he did it once he can do it again.

or plant bombs in the fortress of solitude,

Altho I havent thought of bombs in the fortress, if Batman has such bombs I'm sure he planted them years ago.

or bring green arrow, or robin, or any other dc character along to help him,

All he has to do is make a call useing the phone in his mask.

or build a super armor suit,

Already built.

Althu getting it to where he needs it could be a problem.

he still has his ability to strategize, his intelligence, his utiliy belt full of batterangs, a grappling hook, and what else he NORMALLY caries w/ him.

Which includes a small amount of Kryptonite.

and I know what ur gonna say, and no, this ISN'T to limit batman's abilities. it's only to help eliminate the random factor

And why would you want to do that?????

Random factors are what great fights are made of.

but don't forget superman has intelligence, strategy,intuition, capabilities,knowledge, will power,invention and determination too.

Yes he does but they pale in compairison.

but guess what, he does have powers. and alot of them too.

Powers that can be negated.

his fisical ability is on a whole new level compared to batmans. batman would break his hand w/ b4 he ever punched supes hard enough to actually hert him. once you stop crying and accept the fact that batman can't even phase superman, I'm sure it'll make much more sense to you why he would lose to superman.

I havent been crying buddy.....I've been useing known exaples and logic.

You keep falling on the same tired argument that proves nothing.

now as for what HAS happened in comic issues. believe it or not, I don't consider crossover stories to be 100% accurate. now b4 you start jabbering on about how "comics the best examples of who would win this fight", that's not necessarily the case. see, the outcome of a fight is based solely on who the writer is, and who he wants to win. also on the story he's trying to tell. all that means that most of the fights are both unpredictable and irrelevant. And this is why I think that; because of the conditions the writer always has to follow. 1: it has to be a good fight. I mean, who wants to see a fight ended in 1 punch? so in order to make the fight more interesting they have to even the odds more. this is the main reason cross over fights are irrelevant.

So on what do you place your fait in???Which stories do you consider rellivent to the issue at hand???

Has to be his solo stories right????

Based on them alone its not in Supermans character to do what must be done to beat Batman.He's never done what was needed to ultimate beat Lex so he'll harly do so with Batman.

when ever batman uses kryptonite, or red solar rays, or anything happens to weaken superman, it's just the writer wanting to bring superman down to batmans level.

And its in character.

Batman normaly finds ways to improve his odds fighting with his regular superpowerd rouges....of course he would do the same with Superman.

whenever batman has a friend help him fight superman, or uses some tool that gives him extra abilitys like a suit of armor, it's the writers trying to give superman enough of a challenge to warrant a longer fight.

Again Batman uses examples of both of those in his day to day fights.

He has trained at least 4 partners and has worked closly with countless outhers.

this fight, in order to truly be definitive, must have all the random factors removed.

Again I dont agree.

So that means no preptime in the batcave for batman,

Its way too late to take that one away.

and no angry superman.

Take that away and all you'll see is them talking.

]the only fair fight that has all the random factors removed (which would include preptime, mind control, raging superman), and is still in character for both, is if it was.... a practice fight!

Prep time is not a random factor.

Its not a random factor if you study for a history test.

Preptime is no different then stuying.

And if its a "pratice fight" then they would have forknowlidge of the coming fight, leaving the possibility for Batman to set traps and bring what ever he wants.

Which would defeet the very critira your tring to set up.

now, that may sound anti climatic, or boring to some of you, but that really is the best, fairest way to see who would win imo. i don't think it's outa character.

so the conditions are this: they're just sparring in the justice leagues equivalent of the danger room. only w/ lasers and crap shooting at them. just a giant metal room w/ a flat surface, a ceiling, but alot of open space. (well, about 4 stories of open space that is) superman IS holding back. after all, it's just practice. batmans not using any kryptonite, or any thing that could seriously weaken or hurt supes. after all, it is just practice.

so who wins in that case? I'd say superman. what do you think?

What would be the purpose of this fight?????

To establish whats already fully known??????

We all know that Superman outclasses Batman on a physical level.

I've said it, you've said it.Its well known.

"On powers alone Superman should win"...that was the first thing I said on this topic.

But the point is that a fight between these 2 characters , practice or real, wouldnt fall on powers alone.

This fight your setting up is not a fair fight because just like your other senrios it robs Batman of all he has and would do to make the fight as fair as possible.

A real fair fight, even a pratice one where they make sure not to use leathal force, would allow Batman to use what ever tool and weapons are at his disposal.But set to a non lethal level.

A real pratice fight has both fighters useing all their skills, capabilities and knowlidge....but with non leathal force.

It would be like a game of tag.

Just look at the X-mans danger room practice fights.

Each character is capable of useing what ever tool,power or weapon they own but not at leathal levels.All their capabilites are used.

And in allowing for a fair "practice" fight between Bats and Sups we still see the same happening.

Batmans straigy and planing combined with his tools and weapons can bring him to victory.

dlClingenpeel

12-13-2008, 04:07 PM

seriously? not even a contest. spidey is an ass-wooper.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-16-2008, 09:18 AM

Ultimate_Superman

12-16-2008, 02:39 PM

seriously? not even a contest. spidey is an ass-wooper.

Spidey?????

Were talking about these two guys....
http://www.filmwad.com/ul/676-550x-Superman-v-Batman.jpg

http://www.illusiontv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/01714.jpgAlso if I remember correctly the only time Superman and Spider-Man went head to head Superman knocked Spider-Man clear across town with just the wind from the force of his punch. Keep in mind he didn't him it was just the wind from that punch.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-16-2008, 03:05 PM

Also if I remember correctly the only time Superman and Spider-Man went head to head Superman knocked Spider-Man clear across town with just the wind from the force of his punch. Keep in mind he didn't him it was just the wind from that punch.

I kind of remember that a bit differently [guess its time to break out the old book for memorys sake] but I still dont see how it pretains to the topic at hand.

Ultimate_Superman

12-16-2008, 05:13 PM

No thats how it happened Superman was trying to talk to Spider-Man and figure out whats going on but Spider-Man wanted to fight and since Spider-Man suit was giving off red sun rays he was holding his own for a min. Then it wore off just when Superman got fed up and was about to lay the Smackdown on him and Superman saw that and stopped his punch an inch from Spidey's face but the force of how hard he was going to hit him sent him flying.

stardust

12-18-2008, 05:56 AM

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p192/sto_vo_kor_2000/Comic%20Books/DC%20Superheroes/Batman%20family/Live%20action/94260412sf9.jpg
Nice, only that I'd put Christopher Reeve's face in there. And of course he would win. :oldrazz:

Sam Fisher

12-22-2008, 07:06 AM

Just get a piece of krytonite and Bats could win easily.

Ultimate_Superman

12-22-2008, 09:22 AM

Just get a piece of krytonite and Bats could win easily.
Not true read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. Lex had a huge chunk of kryptonite and Superman just kept his distance and blew it out of his hand. Then just beat him from there.

Sam Fisher

12-22-2008, 09:24 AM

Not true read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. Lex had a huge chunk of kryptonite and Superman just kept his distance and blew it out of his hand. Then just beat him from there.That wouldn't happen on Smallville:p

Ultimate_Superman

12-22-2008, 09:55 AM

That wouldn't happen on Smallville:pIf Superman acted like how they write Clark on Smallville he should be put out of his misery then. I mean don't get me wrong I like the show and all but they just have so many problems. After a while I just learned to like the show for what it is and not expect more or else I will be disappointed.

hippie_hunter

12-22-2008, 10:13 AM

Just get a piece of krytonite and Bats could win easily.

Superman has put up with massive amounts of kryptonite before.

And all Superman would have to do is keep a safe distance and then blast the kryptonite away with his heat vision.

Superman is just far too powerful to be beaten by Batman.

hippie_hunter

12-22-2008, 10:24 AM

Batman has beat Superman......end of story.:whatever:

The Dark Knight Returns doesn't count. The fight in Hush concluded before Superman could beat Batman (even in Batman's words). Superman defeated Batman with ease in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel and Sacrifice.

Any in canon comic that has Batman winning is clearly done with poor writing on account that they have no idea how to portray Batman being a regular human or Superman practically being a god.

hippie_hunter

12-22-2008, 10:25 AM

http://judgescourt.deviantart.com/art/Superman-vs-Batman-39965852

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 11:09 AM

Superman is just far too powerful to be beaten by Batman.

Funny since he's proven to be capable of doing it.

The Dark Knight Returns doesn't count.

Sure it does because it establishes how Batman did and could do it again.

The fight in Hush concluded before Superman could beat Batman (even in Batman's words).

Batman won that by tricking putting Lois in danger.

Batmans words, it was his staratigy to have Catwoman threated one of the Daily planets staff in the hope it would bring Superman to his sences.

And it did.Thats a win.And Batman would be willing to do so again if he had to.

Superman defeated Batman with ease in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel

Which is questionable sine many who read the book believe that the fight may have been staged to fool Luther.

To be honest I'm not sure where I stand on that one but eith way it was suposed to be early in both of their carrires as herors.

Batman wouldnt have known all he "NOW" knows about Superman and how to defeat him.

and Sacrifice.

Thats the one that doesnt count since Superman wasnt in control of himseld and was doing thing he would "NEVER" normally do.

Any in canon comic that has Batman winning is clearly done with poor writing on account that they have no idea how to portray Batman being a regular human or Superman practically being a god.

Canon has no bearing in this debate since no critria was set forth other then the nameing of the characters.

As for the rest of your statement....your welcome to your opinion but Superman being almost a God is hardly a bases for declaring him a winner.

As I said before....all the powers of a God are useless if that God isint willing to use those powers to their fullest extent.

And Gods can be killed...at least in comics.

http://judgescourt.deviantart.com/art/Superman-vs-Batman-39965852

Funny.....but Superman doing that would be out of character.

Spider-Vader

12-22-2008, 11:13 AM

Superman, no competition.

This coming from someone who like Bats way more.

Ultimate_Superman

12-22-2008, 11:51 AM

Which is questionable sine many who read the book believe that the fight may have been staged to fool Luther.

To be honest I'm not sure where I stand on that one but eith way it was suposed to be early in both of their carrires as herors.

Batman wouldnt have known all he "NOW" knows about Superman and how to defeat him.

Thats the one that doesnt count since Superman wasnt in control of himseld and was doing thing he would "NEVER" normally do.

So it doesn't count or come under question when Superman beats Batman but in all the time Batman has "beaten" Superman he has had to have help in doing so that he has in fact never done it alone but those do count.

The Sage

12-22-2008, 12:00 PM

Thats the one that doesnt count since Superman wasnt in control of himseld and was doing thing he would "NEVER" normally do.

Oh come on. You count Batman beating Superman in Hush despite Superman not being in control of himself, but Superman in Sacrifice doesn't? :funny:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 12:23 PM

So it doesn't count or come under question when Superman beats Batman but in all the time Batman has "beaten" Superman he has had to have help in doing so that he has in fact never done it alone but those do count.

Batman is known for cheating....its what he does any anyone would be stupid to expect any less from him.

And I didnt say that that the fight in "Luther: Man of steel doesnt count.

I said that there are 2 logical possible reasons why things went that way.

And how can anyone count "Sacrifice" as a win for Sups when Superman wasnt driving his body at the time???

Oh come on. You count Batman beating Superman in Hush despite Superman not being in control of himself, but Superman in Sacrifice doesn't? :funny:

Because Batman was in control of himself acting as he normally would.

He was not hampered at all.

Superman on the other hand was not in control of himself and was doing things he would never normally do and yet Batman still won.

The test is wether the winner was in control of himself and wether the loser was useing his abilities to his normal behaivor.

In both cases Superman was not under his own control and acting out of character.

Yes Superman beat on Batman in one fight but that doent count a s a win for Superman because Superman wasnt even awaer he was fighting Batman

Its a win for who ever was in control of Superman....in that case Max Lord.

On the other hand in Hush it was Batman that won......and it counts as a win for Batman because instead of taking out the person in control of Superman [Poison Ive] he used a tatic that would work on Superman even if he was under his own control.

Threating anyone of Supermans loved ones is a sound tatic and would be an eficent way to set up Superman for the killing blow....in a matter of speaking.

The Sage

12-22-2008, 12:43 PM

Batman is known for cheating....its what he does any anyone would be stupid to expect any less from him.

And I didnt say that that the fight in "Luther: Man of steel doesnt count.

I said that there are 2 logical possible reasons why things went that way.

And how can anyone count "Sacrifice" as a win for Sups when Superman wasnt driving his body at the time???

Because Batman was in control of himself acting as he normally would.

He was not hampered at all.

Superman on the other hand was not in control of himself and was doing things he would never normally do and yet Batman still won.

The test is wether the winner was in control of himself and wether the loser was useing his abilities to his normal behaivor.

In both cases Superman was not under his own control and acting out of character.

Yes Superman beat on Batman in one fight but that doent count a s a win for Superman because Superman wasnt even awaer he was fighting Batman

Its a win for who ever was in control of Superman....in that case Max Lord.

On the other hand in Hush it was Batman that won......and it counts as a win for Batman because instead of taking out the person in control of Superman [Poison Ive] he used a tatic that would work on Superman even if he was under his own control.

Threating anyone of Supermans loved ones is a sound tatic and would be an eficent way to set up Superman for the killing blow....in a matter of speaking.

I can't count Hush as legit win since Superman wasn't himself. Using Lois Lane as bait doesn't make a difference.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 12:51 PM

I can't count Hush as legit win since Superman wasn't himself.

Thats your right.

Using Lois Lane as bait doesn't make a difference.

To you it might not....and as I said thats your right, but in a real fight it could make all the difference giving Batman the advantage he needs to win.

It could provoke Superman in to making a mistake out of anger or it could distract him long enough to deliver the winning blow....by what ever means Batman does it by.

Franklin Richards

12-22-2008, 12:56 PM

What if Superman travels back in time and makes sure Bruce's parents weren't killed? Would that be a win?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 01:50 PM

What if Superman travels back in time and makes sure Bruce's parents weren't killed? Would that be a win?

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I dont know if I would even classify that as a fight.

But I guess if he did that in a middle of a fight with Batman so that he could win then yes it would be a win for Superman.

But here's the real question.........when has it been in Supermans character to do that type of thing just to win a fight????

The Sage

12-22-2008, 02:22 PM

To you it might not....and as I said thats your right, but in a real fight it could make all the difference giving Batman the advantage he needs to win.

It could provoke Superman in to making a mistake out of anger or it could distract him long enough to deliver the winning blow....by what ever means Batman does it by.

Yeah, but it doesn't count as a legit win over Superman since he wasn't himself, just as he wasn't himself in Sacrifice.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Yeah, but it doesn't count as a legit win over Superman since he wasn't himself, just as he wasn't himself in Sacrifice.

To me Hush counts as a more significant win for Batman because of that same fact.

Batman won against a Superman that was willing to do things that Superman would never stoop to doing while under his own control.

To me the fact that Batman won under those conditions proves hes more then capable of beating Superman and coming up with a winning strategy to beat Superman under normal control.

Lets face it, Batman's strategy to defeat the entire JLA worked in Tower of Bablel.

His plans there took down Plastic Man,The Flash,Green Lantern,Aquaman ,The Martin Manhunter, Wonderwoman and Superman.

You cant take that win away from him just because he didnt carry out the plan.

scatterax

12-22-2008, 03:55 PM

To me Hush counts as a more significant win for Batman because of that same fact.

i knew it, u do have double standard when it comes to this fight.:whatever::oldrazz:

Franklin Richards

12-22-2008, 03:58 PM

To me Hush counts as a more significant win for Batman because of that same fact.

Batman won against a Superman that was willing to do things that Superman would never stoop to doing while under his own control.

To me the fact that Batman won under those conditions proves hes more then capable of beating Superman and coming up with a winning strategy to beat Superman under normal control.

Lets face it, Batman's strategy to defeat the entire JLA worked in Tower of Bablel.

His plans there took down Plastic Man,The Flash,Green Lantern,Aquaman ,The Martin Manhunter, Wonderwoman and Superman.

You cant take that win away from him just because he didnt carry out the plan.

I guess you have to take away all of Batman's kryptonite wins away because Lex planned that first.

:doom: :doom: :doom:

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 04:11 PM

i knew it, u do have double standard when it comes to this fight.:whatever::oldrazz:

Where do you see a double standard????

How is it a double standard to credit the man for not only winning against a superior force but also a superior force unchecked by the norms that normally govern that force????

Fact is Batman won in "Hush" against a Superman that was not in control of himself because he had the chance to plan for the fight.

In "Sacrifice" Batman lost against a Superman that was not under his own control because he was caught off gard, because he didnt have a chance to plan for the fight.

Its not a double standard its a simple fact....given the time to plan Bats wins.

I guess you have to take away all of Batman's kryptonite wins away because Lex planned that first.

:doom: :doom: :doom:

What???

What does being first have to do with anything????

Sometimes your logic makes no sence at all.

I never said anything about Batman having plans first.

The fact is Batmans plans in Tower of Bablel took out the entir JLA.

Granted he didnt carry them out...the plans were stolen by Ras Al Ghul and then carried out by him but they were still Batmans plans.

Franklin Richards

12-22-2008, 04:13 PM

Mostpowerful

12-22-2008, 04:20 PM

This thread amuses me greatly. haha!

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 04:28 PM

Well Lex planned taking Superman out with Kryptonite. Those plans were stolen by Batman and then carried out by Batman but they were still Lex Luthor's plans.

This is your reasoning. Not mine. So it is in fact your logic that doesn't make sense.

:doom: :doom: :doom:

Again Your logic is staggering.

Batman did not take Lex's plans.

Fact is Supermans weakness to Kryptonite is public knowledge in the DC universe so any school kid could come up with a BS plan to use Kryptonite on Superman.

So Batman has no needs for Lex's plans.

What your suggesting now is that by any one trying to win a fight useing a known weakness is stealing his plan from an other person.

And thats just stupid.

The plan isint in useing the Kryptonite but in how and when your going to use it.

Your anoligies keep failing buddy.:woot:

This thread amuses me greatly. haha!

Its doing the same for me.

hippie_hunter

12-22-2008, 06:58 PM

Again Your logic is staggering.

Batman did not take Lex's plans.

Fact is Supermans weakness to Kryptonite is public knowledge in the DC universe so any school kid could come up with a BS plan to use Kryptonite on Superman.

So Batman has no needs for Lex's plans.

What your suggesting now is that by any one trying to win a fight useing a known weakness is stealing his plan from an other person.

And thats just stupid.

The plan isint in useing the Kryptonite but in how and when your going to use it.

Your anoligies keep failing buddy.:woot:

Its doing the same for me.
The flaw with any random person using Kryptonite to beat Superman is flawed on account that the only people who posses Kryptonite are Batman, Superman, and Lex Luthor. The rest of it has been destroyed.

And the Dark Knight Returns doesn't count because it's not canon and Frank Miller wrote it who has absolutely no concept on how to write Superman. Miller writes Superman as a retard, far weaker than how Superman truly is, and out of character.

And your logic makes no sense.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-22-2008, 07:34 PM

The flaw with any random person using Kryptonite to beat Superman is flawed on account that the only people who posses Kryptonite are Batman, Superman, and Lex Luthor. The rest of it has been destroyed.

And there appears to be a "flaw" in your reading.

I didnt say any random person could use kryptonite to beat Superman, I said any random person could "plan" to use Kryptonite to beat Superman.

And the fact is since his weakness to Kryptonite is public knowledge, any Tom,Dick and Harry could think up a plan evolving the use of Kryptronite.

And the Dark Knight Returns doesn't count because it's not canon

I guess you dont know the true definition of the word "canon" and how it shoyuld be used in the comic world.

The Dark Knight is "Canon" because it is an offically produced product of the characters owner or copyright holder.

Canon= official sanctioned material.

Canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is any material that is considered to be "genuine", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator or publisher of a series.

So the Dark Knight Returns is always canon.

What it wasint is part of the mainstream continuity.

So if I was counting The Dark Knight Returns as proof of Batman beating Superman then I might be in error.

But here's the catch.

I've been siteing TDKR only as a point of refrance in saying "this is how he could do it".And the fact is his actions and capabilities in TDKR are very much in character with his abilities in the mainstream continuity.

So The Dark Knight Returns counts in showing the capabilities of Batmans character and how far he's willing to go.

Ohhh and BTW....since the rebirth of the DC multiverse and the nameing of earth 31 as the earth of The Dark Knight returns.......that universe is more "canon" then ever before.

and Frank Miller wrote it who has absolutely no concept on how to write Superman.

In your opinion.

And I'm not saying I disagree but his characterazation of Superman in The Dark Knight returns isint that far off the mark.

Miller writes Superman as a retard, far weaker than how Superman truly is, and out of character.

Superman wasnt much weaker then his mainstream counterpart in The Dark Knight returns.

And your logic makes no sense.

Really???

Tell me how?????

Because so far you havent.

hippie_hunter

12-22-2008, 10:05 PM

Really???

Tell me how?????

Because so far you havent.
Your double standards on Batman and Superman. Batman snapping Superman from Poison Ivy's trance counts as him winning and defeating Superman, yet a mind controlled Superman pummeling Batman to near death doesn't :huh:

And using an utterly flawed and horrible interpretation of Superman that isn't in mainstream continuity (Frank Miller's) as well.

Batman is physical and mental human perfection. However, he's still human and has all the limits of a human being. He's frail. He can tire out. He can die. He can make mistakes.

Superman on the other hand is a Kyrptonian living in a yellow sun environment. He can't get hurt by any human means. Batman isn't a magician, and Batman isn't going to use enough kryptonite to kill Superman. He is also incredibly intelligent as well and isn't just going to rush into a fight with Batman. He knows that Batman is going to be prepared for him.

Any writer who has Batman beating Superman is using poor writing to make Batman look like a badass unnecessarily and it's downright absurd when you consider who they are, a human and a Kryptonian.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-23-2008, 07:50 AM

Your double standards on Batman and Superman. Batman snapping Superman from Poison Ivy's trance counts as him winning and defeating Superman, yet a mind controlled Superman pummeling Batman to near death doesn't :huh:

What double standard???

Dont you see the difference???

Here let me break it down for you since you appear to need the help.

Batman snapping Superman from Poison Ivy's trance was Batman's plan, its what he set out to do.He set up the situation,lured Superman to the planet,He sent Catwoman there ahead and distracted Superman in the sewers.

It was all part of his plan,it was his strategy and he succeeded.It was very much within his capabilities and known behaviors.And its something he would do again if he needed to.

Very Logical

Superman under the mind control of Max Lord, pummeling Batman to near death was not Supermans plan, it is not something he would normally do, the tactic he used on what he thought was Brainiac he would "NEVER" use on a non powered human.

Superman was not acting of his own volition, he employed tactic he would never use on a non powered human and non of his actions were his own.Superman was under the complete control of Max Lord.Superman didnt know what he was seeing,he didnt know what he was doing,he didnt know what he was smelling,he didnt know where he was going.

Superman was no different then a Nascar race car with a different driver at the wheel.

In a car race the guy driving is the winner not the car.Max deserves the win in "Sacifice" since he was pretty much in total control of Superman.

Sorry but I'm not employing any double standard I'm judging the fights for what they were.

Very Logical

And using an utterly flawed and horrible interpretation of Superman that isn't in mainstream continuity (Frank Miller's) as well.

Again useing it to show the capabilities of Batmans character.

Can you say that Batman hasent proven in other books to be capable of doing the things he did in The Dark Knight Returns???

I highly doubt it.

Batman has proven he's capable of beating Superman in other books besides Millers.

Very Logical

Batman is physical and mental human perfection. However, he's still human and has all the limits of a human being.

True

He's frail.

Batman is hardly frail.

You can say he's frail compaired to Superman but you cant say Batman himself is frail.

He can tire out. He can die. He can make mistakes.

Funny....Superman can tire out. He can die. He can make mistakes....and Superman has a number of weaknesses that Batman can and would exploite to win.

Superman on the other hand is a Kyrptonian living in a yellow sun environment. He can't get hurt by any human means.

Nonsence.

Superman can be hurt by object endowed by magic and by electricty....both can be used as "human means".

Batman isn't a magician,

How much do you know about Batman???

Batman studdies under the greatest magicians in the DC universe.

He understands enough about Magic to be able to use it if needed.

Not to mention that he's no above employing others to use the Magic for him.

and Batman isn't going to use enough kryptonite to kill Superman.

Hell yes he would if he felt there was a need.

Why eles gather the largest amount known???

Batman, in future stories, has used enough Kryptonite to kill Superman before....and I know future stories arent in continuity but again they prove the leanghts that Batman is willing to go to if needed.

He is also incredibly intelligent as well and isn't just going to rush into a fight with Batman. He knows that Batman is going to be prepared for him.

Which proves nothing.

Any writer who has Batman beating Superman is using poor writing to make Batman look like a badass unnecessarily and it's downright absurd when you consider who they are, a human and a Kryptonian.

And any person that thinks that powers alone should determin this fight has a poor imagination and a poor understanding of the characters.

I've said this way to many time....

All the powers of a God are worth nothing if he's not willing to use all those powers to their fullest extent.

And BTW, you showed my you disagree with me but you havent brought my logic into question yet.

scatterax

12-23-2008, 10:57 AM

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-23-2008, 12:19 PM

guys, in all the time I've spent on this thread, I've learned 1 very important thing. sto_vo_kor_2000 and every other batman supporter is completely biased and/or has a warped sense of reality. why else would they over estimate batman's strategy, and mind and underestimate, well, pretty much everything about superman?? I guess it's just a fixed fight in this guys head and nothing more.

Then you havent learned the right things.......about me at least.

If you follow all my post you would see how many time I said that I personally dont agree with how DC has made Batman un-beatable.If I had my way he would be more prone to mistakes in judgment and strategy.

DC has basicly done to Batman the last 20 years what they did to Superman before the first Crisis....making him un-beatable and almost un-relaitable.

And I dont agree with how they have made Superman a bit of a push over, making him to nice and to willing to turn the other cheek.They have not only weakened Superman in the sence of powers but also in character.

The made Superman afraid of Batman, they made him concerned about the lengths Batman is willing to go.

If I had my way these characters would be returned to the characterizations they had in the Golden Age and the early to mid Silver age.

The Golden Age Superman had "Balls" The Golden Age and Silver age Batman had limits and could be beat.

But DC has desided to depower and de-ball Superman and have desided to make Batman an un-beatable force of nature.

I'm not biased, I'm calling it how its been written.

And again if you dont like it take it up with DC.

Not one of you have put forth a logical argument that counters that little fact.

This is how DC has written the characters for close to 20 years now.

scatterax

12-24-2008, 02:26 AM

bad/inaccurate/inconsistent. writing does NOT equal an accurate source of information.

you'll just have to go by what you know the characters can and cannot do. so if different eras have different victors. for instance, do you think silver age batman can beat silver age superman?

you've admitted how ridiculous they're making batman and his ability to win in recent comics. so why even bother to use recent comics? I say just go by the characters strengths in their over all history, instead of picking 1 specific time where 1 character has more advantage than the other.

and I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that batmans been written unbeatable for the last 20 years either. it probably doesn't go that far back. I just recently read batman year 1, batman the long holloween, batman dark victory. and in those stories he's alot more down to human levels. like, in year 1 he has trouble fighting a group of teens, and he gets kicked repeatedly in the face. and in dark victory and the long halloween it takes him like a year to solve the cases. i know those stories were erly in his career, but it just proves that batmans mind, and fighting ability haven't always been perceived by the writers as superhuman.

so it's probably been more like the last 10 years that batman has been written strangely unstoppable.

but if you pay attention, you can see that he's treated almost completely different in his own comics than in crossovers. like he's less of a genious when he's solving crimes in his own city than when he's fighting other heroe's it seems. and he has more trouble w/ guys like the riddler in his comics than superhumans in crossover stories like the justice league. at least, that's how it seems to me.

so idk about the rest of you, but i think batman vs his own rouges gallery is better/more accurate sourse material than batman with the justice league.

and to enforce what i suggested in an earlier post. when you ignore the fact that batman has trouble w/ guys like the joker, and the normal humans in metropolis aren't even a challenge for superman, but acknowledge every single time batman has gotten the upper hand in a situation, than yes, I do think you have a bias.

scatterax

12-24-2008, 02:29 AM

well, I'm tired, it's like 3 in the morning here, and i had like 6 different points i was trying to get across in my last post. so if you have a hard time following it, than sorry, my bad.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-24-2008, 09:48 AM

bad/inaccurate/inconsistent. writing does NOT equal an accurate source of information.

So what your saying is that 20+ years or story telling, 20+ years or character development, 20+ years or reading about these characters ,their personalities, capabilities and methods doesnt count it trying to determine the out come of a fight between these 2 characters?????

Thats a crock of **** and you know it.

When trying to determine the outcome of any conflict between two people, their history,methods,character and personalities of the up most importance.

Again this is a fight between the character of Batman as he's been written and the character of Superman as he's been written.

Not a fight between some joe with Batmans gadgets and some joe with Supermans powers.

you'll just have to go by what you know the characters can and cannot do.
Pwers aloon dont answer this question buddy.

Its not "what they can do" but "what they are willing to do".

so if different eras have different victors. for instance, do you think silver age batman can beat silver age superman?

Like I said the Silver age is a bit Fragmented but over all I would say Batman has a chance is Superman makes a few stupid mistakes, which s possible.

But for the most part the Silver age Superman had a bit more of a "go get em" attidude and I believe that he would beat Batman 8 out of 10 times.

you've admitted how ridiculous they're making batman and his ability to win in recent comics.

Yes

so why even bother to use recent comics?

I didnt start or set the critria for this debate.

I just went with the flow.

Everyone was going with the moderen Bats so I posted my replys accordingly.

I say just go by the characters strengths

Which would be a stupid tactic in and fight or contest....no insult intended.

in their over all history, instead of picking 1 specific time where 1 character has more advantage than the other.

Which would be hard to do since they keep changing the "status qou" with each era.

And if DC keeps writting Batman they way they are now, their over all history will be that of an un-beeatable Batman.

and I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that batmans been written unbeatable for the last 20 years either. it probably doesn't go that far back. I just recently read batman year 1, batman the long holloween, batman dark victory. and in those stories he's alot more down to human levels. like, in year 1 he has trouble fighting a group of teens, and he gets kicked repeatedly in the face. and in dark victory and the long halloween it takes him like a year to solve the cases. i know those stories were erly in his career, but it just proves that batmans mind, and fighting ability haven't always been perceived by the writers as superhuman.

Those stories are written as part of Batmans past.Even when they were released they were not in the same time frame as the regular montly books.

So they were all written to take place durring batmans early years.

And when I say he's "un-beatable" its really a figure of speach and not to be taken litarly.

Its kind of like calling him "the Bat God" which has gotten popular these days.

Its just a bit of commentary on how DC keeps pitting him againest fighters he shouldnt be able to beat and yet he still does.

so it's probably been more like the last 10 years that batman has been written strangely unstoppable.

No they been building twards it since Frank Millers "The Dark Knight Returns".That came out in 86 so its been developing for 22 years now.

It wasnt alway consistant but comic book hardly ever are.

but if you pay attention, you can see that he's treated almost completely different in his own comics than in crossovers. like he's less of a genious when he's solving crimes in his own city than when he's fighting other heroe's it seems. and he has more trouble w/ guys like the riddler in his comics than superhumans in crossover stories like the justice league. at least, that's how it seems to me.

Not so much his own comics but the mini serries.

The main comics tend to have a lot of "guess stars" so they tend to keep the same tone as many of the cross overs.

But the mini serries or one shots do tend to write a more believeable version of Batman.

so idk about the rest of you, but i think batman vs his own rouges gallery is better/more accurate sourse material than batman with the justice league.

I agree its more believeable and entertaining.

But you cant really call it more accurate.

Simple fact is that the other stories, weather we like them or not, are as accurate and any other.They are offical stories coming out of DC comics and are in continuity.

We can not discount their accuracy...only DC can.

and to enforce what i suggested in an earlier post. when you ignore the fact that batman has trouble w/ guys like the joker, and the normal humans in metropolis aren't even a challenge for superman, but acknowledge every single time batman has gotten the upper hand in a situation, than yes, I do think you have a bias.

Even the Joker has given troubles to Superman so trying to use that as a point in your debate isint logical.

And one of the most normal humans in Metroplis has been the "GREATEST" challenge to Superman for all of his years.....Lex Luther.

So your last statement really doent make any sence.

Lex has almost beatened Superman more times then I can count......can you imaging what he could do if he wasnt doing it out of greed????

Batman and Lex are very simular but for one fact....Lex does what he does out of hate and greed.

Batman does what he does out of a sence of justice.

If Lex can come close to beating Superman, then Batman can get the job done.

There's just no bias in that.

well, I'm tired, it's like 3 in the morning here, and i had like 6 different points i was trying to get across in my last post. so if you have a hard time following it, than sorry, my bad.

I hope you sleep well.:grin:

dnno1

12-24-2008, 11:54 AM

...But DC has desided to depower and de-ball Superman and have desided to make Batman an un-beatable force of nature.

I'm not biased, I'm calling it how its been written.

And again if you dont like it take it up with DC.

Not one of you have put forth a logical argument that counters that little fact.

This is how DC has written the characters for close to 20 years now.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/supemanandspaceplane.png
Supeman Catches a Space Plane
(From "Superman, the Man of Steel" #1)

From what I have read, Superman was pretty powerful even when he was de-powered (reference John Byrne's so called "Weak Superman"). I wouldn't call someone who could catch a space plane a slouch. If you were to base the weigh of that vehicle on that of some of the proposed space planes (namely the x-30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-30#Specifications.28X-30_as_designed.29)) it should have weighed about 70 tons (fueled).

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/Supermanandtitanic.png
(Weak) Superman's Feats
(From "Superman, the Man of Steel" #1)

In addition, it was kind of subtle, but that version of superman was able to change the course of mighty rivers, raise ships out of the ocean (the Titanic displaced approximately 52,310 tons, which he supposedly raised in the news clip above). I don't think that version was any weaker than the original Golden Age Superman. If he didn't have a heart, Byrne's Superman could have knocked Batman's block off without even a thought.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-24-2008, 05:58 PM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/supemanandspaceplane.png
Supeman Catches a Space Plane
(From "Superman, the Man of Steel" #1)

From what I have read, Superman was pretty powerful even when he was de-powered (reference John Byrne's so called "Weak Superman"). I wouldn't call someone who could catch a space plane a slouch. If you were to base the weigh of that vehicle on that of some of the proposed space planes (namely the x-30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-30#Specifications.28X-30_as_designed.29)) it should have weighed about 70 tons (fueled).

I wasnt speaking literally about a marked decrease in strength when I said they de-powered Superman.

I was speaking metaphorically about the change in his character.

But since you brought it up I do recall Byrne's Superman [and the stories that followed] struggling a bit in many cases [not to sure about that plain scene anymore] and he was struggling doing thing that his silverage counterpart had no problems doing.

The Silver age Superman was capable of juggling planets.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/Supermanandtitanic.png
(Weak) Superman's Feats
(From "Superman, the Man of Steel" #1)

In addition, it was kind of subtle, but that version of superman was able to change the course of mighty rivers, raise ships out of the ocean (the Titanic displaced approximately 52,310 tons, which he supposedly raised in the news clip above). I don't think that version was any weaker than the original Golden Age Superman.

Again I wasnt really talking about power levels but the power of his character in the golden age.

I should have been clearer.

But regardless the Silver age Superman was far more powerful then both Byrnes Superman and the Golden age Superman.

If he didn't have a heart, Byrne's Superman could have knocked Batman's block off without even a thought.

With that I agree.

But that "Heart" as you called it has been a part of the character for almost 20 years now and its why he loses to Batman

terry78

12-24-2008, 06:40 PM

^So basically having compassion in fights is a weakness. Superman gets punished for actually having compassion.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-24-2008, 06:49 PM

^So basically having compassion in fights is a weakness. Superman gets punished for actually having compassion.

Does that really surprise you?????

If it allows your opponent to get the upper hand then its a weakness.

Can you imagine how many fights Mike Tyson would have lost if he showed the least bit of compassion in his fights.

And lets face it....giving Batman any advantage in a fight is a big mistake.

scatterax

12-26-2008, 01:16 PM

Does that really surprise you?????

If it allows your opponent to get the upper hand then its a weakness.

Can you imagine how many fights Mike Tyson would have lost if he showed the least bit of compassion in his fights.

And lets face it....giving Batman any advantage in a fight is a big mistake.

i can see what you mean, but i still say superman being as powerful as he is gives him the advantage that trumps all of batman's advantages.

when it comes down to it, the person who wins the fight is usually the person who can hit the hardest and take the most hits. and, in this case that person is superman. strategy helps allot, but not as much as strength and stamina in a fight.

that's still my stance.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-26-2008, 02:25 PM

i can see what you mean, but i still say superman being as powerful as he is gives him the advantage that trumps all of batman's advantages.

when it comes down to it, the person who wins the fight is usually the person who can hit the hardest and take the most hits. and, in this case that person is superman. strategy helps allot, but not as much as strength and stamina in a fight.

that's still my stance.

And I understand you....but as I pointed out it would be Batmans strategy [at least the modern interpretation of Batman] to reduce just how much "Power" ,strength and stamina Superman has.

And Batman has quite a few ways he can go about that.

dnno1

12-30-2008, 03:58 PM

I wasnt speaking literally about a marked decrease in strength when I said they de-powered Superman.

I was speaking metaphorically about the change in his character.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/Action_Comics.jpg

When most people speak of a de-powered Superman they mean his strenght and limits to his abilities. This is the general connotation when using that phrase. You will have to be more specific when you say change in his character. He has always pretty much been a boyscout type person since the late 1940's early 1950's or so.

But since you brought it up I do recall Byrne's Superman [and the stories that followed] struggling a bit in many cases [not to sure about that plain scene anymore] and he was struggling doing thing that his silverage counterpart had no problems doing.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/BigBardavsSuperman2.jpg

This is the one that disturbed me. That was when we was embarrassed by Big Barda, who should be much weaker.

The Silver age Superman was capable of juggling planets.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/Superboytowingplanets.jpg

Yep. He can at least move a planet today.

But that "Heart" as you called it has been a part of the character for almost 20 years now and its why he loses to Batman

That so called heart has been with him for much longer than that.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-30-2008, 04:08 PM

When most people speak of a de-powered Superman they mean his strenght and limits to his abilities. This is the general connotation when using that phrase. You will have to be more specific when you say change in his character. He has always pretty much been a boyscout type person since the late 1940's early 1950's or so.

I agree I could have been clear but regardless Byrns Superman was quite a bit weaker then the one that came before.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/BigBardavsSuperman2.jpg

This is the one that disturbed me. That was when we was embarrassed by Big Barda, who should be much weaker. .

I forgot about this one myself but in Supermans defence this really isint an example of being weaker but of not being ready.

Even Batman has done similar moves on Superman, in one medium or an other.

Yep. He can at least move a planet today..

Today yes but I thought you were talking about Byrnes Superman????

That so called heart has been with him for much longer than that.

And the character has change in the last 20.

And that change hasnt all be positive for the character.

Hellrider

12-31-2008, 12:27 AM

given the right or wrong circumstances either can win or lose.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-31-2008, 12:45 AM

given the right or wrong circumstances either can win or lose.

Very true.

MAN O STEEL

12-31-2008, 01:00 AM

TwilightPro101

12-31-2008, 01:01 AM

Voted Supes.

Superark

12-31-2008, 01:03 AM

I find this thread funny as heck! The fact that the poll numbers are as close as they are is unbelievably amusing and scary...

Superman wins.

Hellrider

12-31-2008, 01:16 AM

I find this thread funny as heck! The fact that the poll numbers are as close as they are is unbelievably amusing and scary...

Superman wins.

Why does it seem ridiculous to you... batman has defeated him before.

sto_vo_kor_2000

12-31-2008, 02:06 AM

Here's the thing though, if superman & batman were facing each other ready to fight, could superman not just run so fast that bats wouldn't even have time to flinch & just use his own index finger to flick batman into outerspace?. Game Over????. I don't see how any hero would be a match for superman, he's just to damn powerfull. then again I ain't a comic book reader so I don't really understand the whole pre & post crisis superman powers, so i may be inaccurate in my assumption somwhere along the line.

Steve

Its not really an issue of weather Superman "COULD" do as you suggested but weather he "WOULD" do as you suggested.

Yes Superman has the powers to do such but its not in his character to use an attack like that on a non powered human.

tisha_b

01-12-2009, 05:40 AM

obviously BATMAN....as batman got more gadgets

Heretic

01-12-2009, 10:45 AM

Batman has defeated Superman in every fight Ive ever read of theirs.

The fact is that Batman plans for fights...even fights he may never have to wage. he is always prepared and one step ahead of the game. The only way Superman could beat him is if he just randomly decided, "screw this noise, Im taking out the Bats" and flew over as fat as possible and knocked his head off. Anything that requires forethought or planning and Batman would be prepared for it.

scatterax

01-12-2009, 01:32 PM

well do any of you think he could beat superman w/o planning ahead? (like, if he didn't think there was gonna be a fight?)

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-12-2009, 02:02 PM

well do any of you think he could beat superman w/o planning ahead? (like, if he didn't think there was gonna be a fight?)

Thats not really a question that can be answered because he always has a plan waiting.

As long as Superman is acting of his own free will and it emotionally stable Batman has a fair chance at winning.

scatterax

01-12-2009, 02:10 PM

Thats not really a question that can be answered because he always has a plan waiting.

As long as Superman is acting of his own free will and it emotionally stable Batman has a fair chance at winning.

not always. batman CAN still make mistakes, he is STILL only human. it is POSSIBLE that he could be caught off guard. I'm just wondering if he could win if he was?

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-12-2009, 02:33 PM

not always. batman CAN still make mistakes, he is STILL only human. it is POSSIBLE that he could be caught off guard. I'm just wondering if he could win if he was?

And as "not human" as Superman is he is still just as capable ,if not more so, of making mistakes.

So I really dont see how that pertains to this debate.

And its not in Supermans nature to act in a way that would lead to Batman being caught off guard so you already have your answer:grin:.

As long as Superman is acting of his own free will, acting within the established norms of his personality and behaivor and it emotionally stable Batman has a fair chance at winning.

GarudA

01-12-2009, 06:16 PM

If Superman wanted to win, he would win.

KALEL114

01-12-2009, 06:44 PM

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-12-2009, 09:14 PM

If Superman wanted to win, he would win.

Which begs the question.....Why does he tend to lose these fights then????

With Superman's powers, he would win easily. Batman is great in preparing and out thinking his enemy, but how can he stop Supes from lobotomizing him from a mile away with his heat vision? That's just one example. As long as Supes keeps his distance he would win. IMO.

Simple fact is Superman would never lobotomize a regular human from a mile away with his heat vision.....its not in his character.

And there isint an attack that Superman would use that would be effective from that distance.

Kevin Smith

01-12-2009, 09:16 PM

With Superman's powers, he would win easily. Batman is great in preparing and out thinking his enemy, but how can he stop Supes from lobotomizing him from a mile away with his heat vision? That's just one example. As long as Supes keeps his distance he would win. IMO.

Amen ta that. And him "lobotomizing" someone is just as "out of character" as the two really trying to kill each other, so there's no holds barred here. :D

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-12-2009, 09:49 PM

Amen ta that. And him "lobotomizing" someone is just as "out of character" as the two really trying to kill each other, so there's no holds barred here. :D

Not as "Out of character" as you would like to believe since Batman has made planns to kill or stop every member of the JLA.

And I dont recall the original poster calling this a fight to the death so there are some holds barred here.

And the holds barred are those that would be out of character for either hero to use.

Superman "lobotomizing" a normal human is totally out of character.

Batman useing Kryptonite to stop [not kill] a Kryptonion is completly in character.

scatterax

01-12-2009, 10:41 PM

Not as "Out of character" as you would like to believe since Batman has made planns to kill or stop every member of the JLA.

And I dont recall the original poster calling this a fight to the death so there are some holds barred here.

And the holds barred are those that would be out of character for either hero to use.

Superman "lobotomizing" a normal human is totally out of character.

Batman useing Kryptonite to stop [not kill] a Kryptonion is completly in character.

well i still don't see how batman can win w/o using kryptonite or de-powering superman. That seems to be his only hope in this fight.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-12-2009, 10:49 PM

well i still don't see how batman can win w/o using kryptonite or de-powering superman. That seems to be his only hope in this fight.

Those would be Batmans best options but Superman does have other weaknesses.

But useing kryptonite and or finding a way to de-powering Superman would totally be in character for Batman.

dnno1

01-13-2009, 08:55 AM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/SupesVBats.jpg

I still think this would be the outcome.

terry78

01-13-2009, 09:11 AM

The only way Batman could win outside of kryptonite is magic, and both he and Superman hate the "m" word.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-13-2009, 01:44 PM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/SupesVBats.jpg

I still think this would be the outcome.

Hey we all have out opinions.

But which book is that from again????

The only way Batman could win outside of kryptonite is magic, and both he and Superman hate the "m" word.

Magic is not the only way and as a matter of fact there are other "More effective" ways for Batman to beat Superman then magic.

Even a weapon that uses Red Sun rays would be more effective then Magic.

And as much as Batman may hate useing Magic he wouldnt hesitate to do so if he needed too.

Adrian89

01-13-2009, 02:10 PM

Obviously SUPERMAN! If he would desire to finish Batman he would do it with 1 simple move!

scatterax

01-14-2009, 01:11 PM

Obviously SUPERMAN! If he would desire to finish Batman he would do it with 1 simple move!

ya, but some people are convinced supermans too much of a nice guy to even throw a punch. (which is really all it would take for superman too win)

superman knows how to punch some1 hard enough to STOP them w/o seriously injuring them or killing them.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-14-2009, 01:32 PM

If he would desire to finish Batman he would do it with 1 simple move!

As I've said all along.......if he really wanted too then yes he could Beat Batman.

But the simple fact that he keeps loseing only brings up the question about what he wants.

ya, but some people are convinced supermans too much of a nice guy to even throw a punch. (which is really all it would take for superman too win)

No not at all.....but Superman is too nice of a guy to just sneak up out of no-where and throw that first punch.

superman knows how to punch some1 hard enough to STOP them w/o seriously injuring them or killing them.

Which is irrelevant.....because having such power and knowledge is worthless if he's not willing to use them.

scatterax

01-14-2009, 02:18 PM

^he IS willing to use his power in a fight. just not more than he needs.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-14-2009, 02:54 PM

^he IS willing to use his power in a fight. just not more than he needs.

He's not willing to use his power in a fight with normal humans wether their capable of putting him down or not.

And there's plenty of proof to back that up.

Just look at how many times Lex has almost killed him either in direct combat or by other means.

He's never [at least to my knowledge] snuck up on Lex and knocked him out with one punch or attacked him from a safe distance or used all his superior to human abilities to put Lex down before Lex did enough damage.

Superman has never been willing to use the power necessary to put a stop to Lex but your expecting me to believe he would with Batman?????

Where's the logic in that????

BTW how you been bud???

scatterax

01-14-2009, 09:59 PM

He's not willing to use his power in a fight with normal humans wether their capable of putting him down or not.

And there's plenty of proof to back that up.

Just look at how many times Lex has almost killed him either in direct combat or by other means.

He's never [at least to my knowledge] snuck up on Lex and knocked him out with one punch or attacked him from a safe distance or used all his superior to human abilities to put Lex down before Lex did enough damage.

Superman has never been willing to use the power necessary to put a stop to Lex but your expecting me to believe he would with Batman?????

Where's the logic in that????

BTW how you been bud???

fine.:yay:

but i never said he had to sneak up on batman to win. but since we're comparing batman to lex...

when lex fights supes, he uses more powerfull, usually lethal weapons on him than batman would. and he know as much about superman's weakness and strengths as batman. maybe even more. and he's as much a genuis as batman. maybe even more.(he just doesn't have the hand-to-hand combat genius as batman. but i don't think that would be very effective against superman anyway.) and he uses kryptonite (aswell as other means of depowering superman) more than any other dc character. so I think if superman can come out on top most of the time against lex, he shouldn't have much more trouble against batman. I mean, every time superman fights lex, it's brains vs brawns, (which is the kind of fight we have here.)and superman almost always comes out on top.

I know superman has lost to baman allot in the comics, but I'm just wondering, who's comic are they fighting in when he loses? batman, superman, or jla?(i don't actually know myself:whatever:) cause if he loses in an issue of batman, so what? but if he loses in an issue of jla or superman, than that might actually mean something.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-14-2009, 10:57 PM

fine.:yay:

Good to hear:grin:

but i never said he had to sneak up on batman to win. but since we're comparing batman to lex...

when lex fights supes, he uses more powerfull, usually lethal weapons on him than batman would. and he know as much about superman's weakness and strengths as batman. maybe even more. and he's as much a genuis as batman. maybe even more.(he just doesn't have the hand-to-hand combat genius as batman. but i don't think that would be very effective against superman anyway.) and he uses kryptonite (aswell as other means of depowering superman) more than any other dc character. so I think if superman can come out on top most of the time against lex, he shouldn't have much more trouble against batman. I mean, every time superman fights lex, it's brains vs brawns, (which is the kind of fight we have here.)and superman almost always comes out on top.

Correct on all points....but your neglecting one very important thing.

Why does Lex keep losing???

Greed for Power lead Lex to making stupid little mistake and being over confident.

Lex wants to be the most powerful man on the planet so much that it blinds him to the stupid mistakes he makes.

Batman wouldnt make those mistake nor would Batman be doing this for any other reason other then that he had to.

I know superman has lost to baman allot in the comics, but I'm just wondering, who's comic are they fighting in when he loses? batman, superman, or jla?

You'll just look for any reason to discount the evidence wont you???:whatever:

It doent really matter because as I pointed out Lex has come way to close to beating Superman way to many times....and those were mostly in Supermans books.

If Lex can get that close to winning Batman can finish the job.

(i don't actually know myself:whatever:) cause if he loses in an issue of batman, so what?

Thats a cop out.

But to answer your question 2 out of the 4 fights I've been refreancing as examples of how Batman can win happened in Batman books.

but if he loses in an issue of jla or superman, than that might actually mean something.

Superman was taken down [along with the rest of the JLA] useing Batmans plans in JLA:Tower of Babel story arc.....

I guess that actually mean something right??????

A future Batman also "KILLED" Superman in the 1991 Superman Annual :Armageddon 2001 story arc.

I guess that actually mean something too right??????

scatterax

01-15-2009, 09:19 PM

Kevin Smith

01-15-2009, 10:04 PM

Not as "Out of character" as you would like to believe since Batman has made planns to kill or stop every member of the JLA.

And I dont recall the original poster calling this a fight to the death so there are some holds barred here.

And the holds barred are those that would be out of character for either hero to use.

True. :whatever:

Superman "lobotomizing" a normal human is totally out of character.

Batman useing Kryptonite to stop [not kill] a Kryptonion is completly in character.

True. Although if Superman wanted to he could simply take all of Batman's limbs off with his heat vision and stop Batman without killing him if he were really a threat to him. Heck, he could just blind him and take an arm or two off, or freeze Batman in a mile thick iceberg. End of the dark knight there. Superman still wins either way, IMO.

scatterax

01-15-2009, 10:07 PM

True. :whatever:

True. Although if Superman wanted to he could simply take all of Batman's limbs off with his heat vision and stop Batman without killing him if he were really a threat to him. Heck, he could just blind him and take an arm or two off, or freeze Batman in a mile thick iceberg. End of the dark knight there. Superman still wins either way, IMO.

Why do I already know what sto_vo_kor_2000 is gonna say about this? oh, who am I kidding. it's because I've been posting here for a couple months already!!

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-16-2009, 04:13 AM

Idk, I still think it would have the same results of a lex vs superman battle. w/ superman overcoming batmans scheme in the end:oldrazz:. but atleast now I can see why some1 would actually think batman stood a chance.

One is glad to be of service:grin:

True. Although if Superman wanted to he could simply take all of Batman's limbs off with his heat vision and stop Batman without killing him if he were really a threat to him. Heck, he could just blind him and take an arm or two off, or freeze Batman in a mile thick iceberg. End of the dark knight there. Superman still wins either way, IMO.

I dont deny that Superman is capable of any of that "IF" he "WANTED" to.

What I do no agree with you is one wether Superman "WOULD" do any of it soly based on if he felt Bat's "was really a threat to him".

The plain and simple fact is Superman would only take any of the actions you listed if he were suffering from a break down or under the control of an out side force.

Superman has never ,"NEVER", ripped limbs off with his heat vision of anyone who was not robotic in some way only because they were a threat.

Superman has never, "NEVER", Blinded any of the bad guys he was fighting by intent only because they were a threat [unless it was a robot or something]

And there's no way, "NO WAY", he going to just start doing these things in a fight with Batman and still be in character.

Why do I already know what sto_vo_kor_2000 is gonna say about this? oh, who am I kidding. it's because I've been posting here for a couple months already!!

Were you right???

scatterax

01-17-2009, 12:48 AM

Were you right???

yep. pretty much what I thought you'd say to that.:word:

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-17-2009, 06:28 PM

yep. pretty much what I thought you'd say to that.:word:

Glad I didnt disappoint.

At least I'm staying "IN CHARACTER" and sting with in the "personality and behavioral norms" that have been "established" by the history of my post.

Which should be how any fight between Superman and Batman should go.

House

01-18-2009, 11:04 AM

:super: FTW

Kevin Smith

01-18-2009, 05:49 PM

One is glad to be of service:grin:

I dont deny that Superman is capable of any of that "IF" he "WANTED" to.

What I do no agree with you is one wether Superman "WOULD" do any of it soly based on if he felt Bat's "was really a threat to him".

The plain and simple fact is Superman would only take any of the actions you listed if he were suffering from a break down or under the control of an out side force.

Superman has never ,"NEVER", ripped limbs off with his heat vision of anyone who was not robotic in some way only because they were a threat.

Superman has never, "NEVER", Blinded any of the bad guys he was fighting by intent only because they were a threat [unless it was a robot or something]

And there's no way, "NO WAY", he going to just start doing these things in a fight with Batman and still be in character.

Were you right???

So then you admit Superman would win. :pal::applaud

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-18-2009, 11:55 PM

So then you admit Superman would win. :pal::applaud

Not at all....follow the post and you'll see that I'm saying that Batman wins.

Follow all my post and you'll see that.

"SHOULD" and WOULD" are two very different things.

Superman should win this on powers alone but his personality,his compassion and his concern for human life prevent him from doing whats nessesery to win this fight.

Now if you want to take that as a "Not wanting to win" stance to say why he loses then fine.

Superman is capable of winning on powers alone but its his personality that keeps him from winning.

So you might want to bone up on your reading skills buddy:hehe:

Just kidding

GreenKToo

01-19-2009, 08:04 AM

Thats like asking who would win between The Punisher and the Hulk.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-19-2009, 08:22 AM

Thats like asking who would win between The Punisher and the Hulk.

Actually theres a hell of a big difference between both fights.

The Hulk would be willing to step on the Punisher.

Superman wouldnt be willing to do the same to Batman.

GreenKToo

01-19-2009, 09:00 AM

No your right, Supes wouldnt do that. He could just Fly Bats up high enough so he passes out. Unless you wanna give Bats prep time that is. If so, then Supes needs it as well.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-19-2009, 09:14 AM

No your right,

Thanks

Supes wouldnt do that. He could just Fly Bats up high enough so he passes out.

And yet an other example of an action that Superman wouldnt do.

Yes he could but he wouldnt.

And the proof is in the pudding.

In any of the fights they have had Superman hasnt done that...in any of the fights with Lex he hasnt done that.....in any of the fights he has had with other non powered humans he hasnt done that.

He's not going to start now just so you guys can win this argument.

Besides Batman has equipment in his belt so that he would be able to breath at those heights and not pass out.

And before you go and say Superman can fly him up so fast that Batman wouldnt have the time to get the equipment out of his belt.......those speeds would kill Batman from either wind shear, the mounting pressure or the cold caused from flying that fast.

And as I keep pointing out...thats something Superman would never do to a non powered human while under his own control.

Unless you wanna give Bats prep time that is. If so, then Supes needs it as well.

And again Batman has most of the prep time needed for this fight years ago.

You guys really need to think harder on this before you post because every example you guys come up with seems to be out of character for SUPERMAN.

GreenKToo

01-20-2009, 01:13 PM

Your debate is mute. In a normal situation, they wouldnt fight anyway. Now if one were under the influence of someone else, lets say Supes for instance. Why wouldnt he fly Bats up high if he wasnt in his right mind.

The same with Bats. If he were under the control of some villain, I have no problem believing Supes would fly him up high enough till he passed out, if only to prevent from seriously injuring him.

.

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-20-2009, 01:31 PM

Your debate is mute.

Really lets see.....

In a normal situation, they wouldnt fight anyway.

Granted.

But I can think of a few situations where they may have to fight that does not envolve either being under the control of a 3rd party.

As a matter of fact I've already posted the comic in which it was already done.

And again I'm not useing it as evidence of it being done but of how it could be done.

Now if one were under the influence of someone else, lets say Supes for instance. Why wouldnt he fly Bats up high if he wasnt in his right mind.

No one said he wouldnt.

The same with Bats. If he were under the control of some villain, I have no problem believing Supes would fly him up high enough till he passed out, if only to prevent from seriously injuring him.

That would only work if Batman were under the control of some dumb villian or didnt have access to his memories.

But if Batman were under the influence of someone or something that altered his personalty but still retains his memories and skills that trick wouldnt work for the same reasons I posted in my last post.

Here it is again to refresh your memory....

Batman has equipment in his belt that would allow him to breath in the upper atmosphere.

So to be able to prevent Batman from getting to the equipment Superman would have to fly him at speeds that would certainly kill Batman.

And thats something Supermans not willing to do.

So how was my debate mute????

You should have taken my advise and put some thought harder about what you wanted to post:grin:

GreenKToo

01-21-2009, 09:57 AM

I did. and I stand by what I said. Supes wins.

scatterax

01-21-2009, 10:00 AM

Your debate is mute. In a normal situation, they wouldnt fight anyway. Now if one were under the influence of someone else, lets say Supes for instance. Why wouldnt he fly Bats up high if he wasnt in his right mind.

The same with Bats. If he were under the control of some villain, I have no problem believing Supes would fly him up high enough till he passed out, if only to prevent from seriously injuring him.

.

some good points here.

I agree, superman would win.

Faded To Deaf

01-21-2009, 10:33 AM

Batman would win.

Doctor Doom would completely erase BOTH of them.

At the same time.

blksuperman2

01-21-2009, 10:54 PM

Your debate is mute. In a normal situation, they wouldnt fight anyway. Now if one were under the influence of someone else, lets say Supes for instance. Why wouldnt he fly Bats up high if he wasnt in his right mind.
.

I hate it when someone misuses this word.

moot (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gift)
n. 1. Law A hypothetical case argued by law students as an exercise.
2. An ancient English meeting, especially a representative meeting of the freemen of a shire.

tr.v. moot·ed, moot·ing, moots 1. a. To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.
b. To discuss or debate. See Synonyms at broach (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/broach)1.

2. Law To plead or argue (a case) in a moot court.

So really when you say moot. it means open for debate. Not the opposite.

dnno1

01-23-2009, 12:10 AM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/SupesVBats.jpg
Hey we all have out opinions.

But which book is that from again????..

Justice League: New Frontier

dnno1

01-23-2009, 12:20 AM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/FinalCirsis.jpg

Batman would be asking for trouble against Superman (especially if he wanted to kill).

DChero

01-23-2009, 12:49 AM

I think the speed at which Superman moves would be the deciding factor. Sure, there are ways to kill him, but if we have to resort to allowing Bats to sneak up on him to simply justify what some of us want to happen is a little unfair.

Let's have them meet in an abandoned city, Batman with his USUAL arsenal and Superman with his. Who wins?

Should we give them time to prepare? If we do then Superman, who is just as smart as Batman (see non-Frank Miller comics), would probably be able to protect his Kryptonite weakness. Then what?

Another factor would be which version of the character we base this on. Again I mention the strong differences between how writers like Johns, Frank Miller, etc. have created these variable styles of presenting the characters. In addition, there are very definitive differences in Superman's abilities based on the Age or version that we decide on.

So after all that, I think the rules need to be set before we play this game.

Jake Cassidy

01-23-2009, 03:28 AM

Since Batman is a normal human, Superman can just wait around until he dies. Than go up to Bats' coffin and say, "I win, pussy." :oldrazz:

CFE

01-23-2009, 07:51 AM

Mercurius

01-23-2009, 09:26 AM

A little rhyme I did on the subject::brucebat:

"Bats beats Supes.

It has happened before, it will happen again.

Supes has muscles, Bats has brains." :oldrazz:

scatterax

01-23-2009, 10:04 AM

supes has beat bats b4 too. it happened b4, it'll happen again.

GreenKToo

01-23-2009, 10:26 AM

I hate it when someone misuses this word.

moot (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gift)
n. 1. Law A hypothetical case argued by law students as an exercise.
2. An ancient English meeting, especially a representative meeting of the freemen of a shire.

tr.v. moot·ed, moot·ing, moots 1. a. To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.
b. To discuss or debate. See Synonyms at broach (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/broach)1.

2. Law To plead or argue (a case) in a moot court.

So really when you say moot. it means open for debate. Not the opposite.
It doesn't matter. You know what I meant Cap'n Grammar.

Mercurius

01-23-2009, 11:48 AM

supes has beat bats b4 too. it happened b4, it'll happen again.

Boyscouts are boyscouts, it doesn't matter if they come from Krypton with improvements.

Now, Bats is tough, smart and does not trust. He can beat Supes anytime.

Moreover, being a Double-Face and thus Bats' enemy, you root for the big blue, evidently. :oldrazz:

Mercurius

01-23-2009, 11:53 AM

It doesn't matter. You know what I meant Cap'n Grammar.

huh... pardon, but technically it is not grammar, but semantics instead.

You should call him Cap'n Semantics, that is.

shadowdog

01-23-2009, 12:36 PM

your definition is correct, but you're using the term "moot point" too litterally
when you say something is a moot point, you're saying it isn't worth discussing becasue it is ALWAYS on the table for discussion without resolution
the point is ALWAYS up for debate, like the definition suggests, so there is no point in discussing it.
but everyone knows what it means in context
so it's a moot point anyway
;p

blksuperman2

01-23-2009, 08:44 PM

It doesn't matter. You know what I meant Cap'n Grammar.

huh... pardon, but technically it is not grammar, but semantics instead.

You should call him Cap'n Semantics, that is.

LOL

your definition is correct, but you're using the term "moot point" too litterally
when you say something is a moot point, you're saying it isn't worth discussing becasue it is ALWAYS on the table for discussion without resolution
the point is ALWAYS up for debate, like the definition suggests, so there is no point in discussing it.
but everyone knows what it means in context
so it's a moot point anyway
;p

:huh: Why would something be ALWAYS up for debate and not have a point in discussing it. Then it wouldn't be moot.

**** Runs and googles an antonym for moot **********

shadowdog

01-23-2009, 10:57 PM

because it could always be up for conversation without resolution, becuase the topic is hypothetical or irrelevant
look
the supposed definition of the word, as we use it to reffer to a topic of conversation or subject matter that isn't worth discussing, is used as compared to the litteral definition of moot (a hypothetical case argued by lawyers) because you're classifying the point with all of the other hypothetical "moot points" that for what ever reason also aren't relevant for discussion

this is not the first time I've had this conversation
trust me

sto_vo_kor_2000

01-26-2009, 07:48 AM

I did. and I stand by what I said. Supes wins.

Well you did a poor job of making your point.

no offense intended.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/SupesVBats.jpg

Justice League: New Frontier

Thanks....I should have known.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/FinalCirsis.jpg

Batman would be asking for trouble against Superman (especially if he wanted to kill).

With that I agree.

But keep in mind that the key words are "if Superman wanted to kill"

Should we give them time to prepare? If we do then Superman, who is just as smart as Batman (see non-Frank Miller comics), would probably be able to protect his Kryptonite weakness. Then what?

Sorry but even in the "Non Frank Miller comics" Superman is not as smart as Batman.

Kryptonite? please...Superman can be at safe distance and roast Batman alive with heat vision.

This one again???

That kind of attack would be completly out of character for Superman.

Clark might be naive here and there...but he's WAY smarter than people give him credit for.

And??????

Also, watch the ending of "Superman: Doomsday" where the Superman Clone is fighting the army prior to the real Supes showing up.

Yeah it's not the REAL Superman, but the clone sufficiently showed what it'd be like if Kal-El threw all caution to the winds...if he wants to down F-22s and Helicopters, he can just do it...without flinching...If for some reason he wants you dead, you are DEAD.

Whats the point of continuing to point out "if Superman wanted" in the debate when its clear that Superman wouldnt "want" to do any of that.

Its not a question of wether he has the power of capability to beat Batman....its a question of weather Superman has the will or desire to beat Batman.

And the evidence suggests, if not proves, that he dosent.

I have said time and time again if Superman "WANTED" too..... he could kill Batman in a second.

But as I keep saying him "WANTING" to do anything like that would be out of character....unless were talking about a Superman that has suffered some kind of emotional breakdown or is in the control of some third party he would never "WANT" to do that to anyone.

We're not talking about Superman/Boy Prime here....its the Mainstream Superman we're talking about.

And the mainstream Superman has never shown any indication that he would be willing to fly to a "safe distance and roast Batman alive with heat vision".

supes has beat bats b4 too. it happened b4, it'll happen again.

As far as I can tell Sups only has 1 in continuity win over Bats under his belt.

Anti-Man

11-19-2010, 12:49 PM

I've also said this before....A fight between these 2,in which neither is in control of them selfs would most likely go to Superman.When not in control of himself Superman uses his powers in ways and in extreams of his normal use.

Batman still has a chance but its a very slim one in that kind of senerio and his chance is solely based on his skills and intelligence.

But for the record Batman carries the Kryptonite anytime he thinks he will encounter Superman in a fight or a team up.

Are you really sure about this?
In all eight one-shots of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, which sets after the events of Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne, show that Batman has developed an exosuit mimicking Amazo's capability of copying metahuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metahuman) powers, includes Superman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman)'s heat vision, superspeed possibly from the Man of Steel or The Flash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flash), Martian Manhunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_Manhunter)'s invisibility, emitting a Green Lantern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern)'s ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_ring_%28DC_Comics%29)'s energy, and a lasso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasso) mirroring Wonder Woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman)'s Lasso of Truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasso_of_Truth). However, There is a design flaw on this suit: it uses too much power to keep it functioning, which Batman must only use it for limited amount of time.

Let's suppose Superman becomes evil and wants to destroy entire Earth he defeats and actually kills all superheroes who tried to stop him. None is mind-controlling him, this is Superman's own choice he lost his in humanity, he lost his own humanity, and he uses his powers at the most extreme levels just to kill everyone. Let's suppose Batman is the last survivor on Earth, and he has built an high-tech super-powered battle exosuit to mimic all of metahuman powers like the above. But let's suppose also that that this exosuit is powered by nuclear energy inside itself with nuclear battery (which means it can function for immense amount of time and/or backed up by solar radiation and cosmic radiation, however nuclear battery should be just enough)-the question is could this Batman with power-mimicking exosuit (as described above) stand a chance against bloodlusted, evil Superman?

Or simply show a gold kryptonite which totally nullifies Superman's powers, so basically Superman becomes a normal human with no powers? Than he uses the sword and cuts Superman in half or simply transport him at the heart of red supergiant star like he (Batman) did to Super-Amazo?

The fact is, Batman only needs to improve this exosuit (and maybe combine with the most indestructible metal in DC universe) that its powers can last for immense amount of time and gold kryptonite.
What do you think about these possible fights, Sto_vo_kor_2000?

darknight7

05-08-2011, 01:16 PM

I am an extremely, HUGE! Batman Fan. (And as most Batman fans also respect and enjoy the Superman character).

As many have said, when this comes down to the movies (BALE vs ROUTH) Bale takes the cake.

If it comes to the comics? It is hard to say, depending on the writer and story. Batman is held in such high regard as the world's greatest detective with gadgets and genius level intelect. But Superman has also been shown as an unstoppable alien with powers beyond human understanding. That being said, it will usually end in a tie or with one character taking a bit more of a beating than the other (but never TRULY winning). And Kryptonite always comes into play.

Now...if you wanted to say these characters were real. And everything they are all about existed in the real world. Clearly if they were both out to KILL, Superman takes it. Hands down. Super speed and heat vision is enough to destroy the entire planet. The end.

That being said, I drew up a little cartoon that shows the essence of both characters, what they're about and pokes fun at them at the same time.

ROPE VS. STEEL

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4796/ropevssteelbydarknight7.jpg

--dk7

darknight7

05-08-2011, 01:34 PM

Superman. I'm a bigger fan of Batman, but Superman would destroy him with ease.

Kryptonite? please...Superman can be at safe distance and roast Batman alive with heat vision.

Clark might be naive here and there...but he's WAY smarter than people give him credit for.

Also, watch the ending of "Superman: Doomsday" where the Superman Clone is fighting the army prior to the real Supes showing up.

Yeah it's not the REAL Superman, but the clone sufficiently showed what it'd be like if Kal-El threw all caution to the winds...if he wants to down F-22s and Helicopters, he can just do it...without flinching...If for some reason he wants you dead, you are DEAD.

Couldn't agree more. I'm also a bigger Batman fan than I am Superman (although I do like Superman). And people like to think Superman is just some kind of doink idiot farmer hick. Kal El is a descendent from a race far superior to humans (sure he wasn't raised by them) but he has all the super human abilities. To learn at an excelled rate, plus all of the knowledge sent to earth with him that he has access to in the Fortress of Solitude.

I love Batman, and when people ask me this question...I usually say Batman would win because all it takes is Kryptonite. But that's just the denial Batman fanboy inside of me lol. (because as a kid I hated that he could be hurt by a rock but now understand why and see it as a sort of dramatic irony - the most powerful character in the universe can be taken down using a rock)

Because when it comes down to it, Superman is one of the most powerful characters. And he is intelligent too.

--dk7

darknight7

05-08-2011, 01:39 PM

You are aware that Superman did not sit on his hands for 12 years...He was learning. Training. Learning about earth and it's history as well as krypton's. That includes many sciences. Once again something many people (including the writers) tend to forget.

Yes but are we talking about a fight between the characters or how would the characters be written? I think I'm confused. I thought we were talking about a fight here and not how would would what writer write whom. :huh:

Which is useless if he's not fast enough to pull it out. But are we talking about a fight or what benefits a story the best?

^^yes to the bolded text

--dk7

Llama_Shepherd

05-08-2011, 02:02 PM

Superman should win.

Batman would win.

Everyone who has read a comic know it.

darknight7

05-08-2011, 03:26 PM

Well said Llama Shepherd

--dk7

Mondragon

05-08-2011, 10:48 PM

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x271/SupremeMod/biggrecheese-batman-vs-superman-thu.gif

Bren

05-09-2011, 03:41 AM

If they were both prepared for the fight = Superman.
If they were both unprepared for the fight? Whoever was less unprepared = Batman.

Fight to the death = Superman.
Fight to accomplish a goal = Batman.

The world is lucky Superman is a good guy. Batman is lucky Superman is a boyscout.

The Morningstar

05-09-2011, 04:00 AM

Without "plot induced stupidity" or "character induced stupidity"...

Superman would smear Batman against a wall. Doesn't matter how much prep Batman has. Or what gadgets he has... getting speed blitzed by a guy who can crack planets will only end in one way.

With Batman as a blood stain against a wall.

MoonChild

05-09-2011, 05:18 AM

Of all the powers in the super hero universe, the one that is criminally underused and very rarely used intelligently is super speed.

Batman would need time to react to Superman's attack, and if the attack is done at super speed, the human has no time to do so.

Who wins?

Logic (and no I am not Vulcan)

Jick09

05-09-2011, 05:58 AM

Superman
Even if Batman uses Kryptonite.
Supes uses super speed and smashes Bats before he can be fully affected. I have a comic where something like that is said by Batman. Don't remember exactly which one it is, but Superman is under Ivy's control.

The Morningstar

05-09-2011, 06:51 AM

The comic you're talking about is Hush.

The thing is, Superman rarely is shown to be fighting at his full capabilities. Because if he was, there would be no drama.

Worst case of this is against Doomsday in the Death of Superman. He doesn't speed blitz Doomsday at all. It's like he forgot that he could speed blitz in the biggest fight of his life. Why? Well, to add drama to the story, which isn't necessarily a bad thing I guess. But it's still "plot induced stupidity".

Seriously, no matter what armour Bruce has, how much prep, if he has a Kryptonite baseball bat... Kal-El, if written to his full capabilities, speed blitzes him into paste before Bruce even realizes he's being attacked.

Ultra Lantern

05-09-2011, 07:40 AM

If Superman used his heat vision at a distance,he could kill Batman.

Drz

05-09-2011, 09:39 AM

Oh boy these threads! Well everyone knows Superman wins no matter how much preparation Batman would have, he just can't outsmart those powers really.

PS. Inbefore people try to tell me how Batman is smarter than Superman while they got it all wrong. :p

Godzilla2014

05-09-2011, 12:37 PM

Something that I think would be a very important factor are Batman and Superman's moral codes. Could (certain incarnations of) Superman push the Earth into the sun? Yes. Would he? Hell no. Could he incinerate Batman from a safe distance from any Kryptonite he might have? Yes. Would he? No, or Lex Luthor wouldn't be a problem. Similarly, if they ended up in a bunch of Green Kryptonite, Batman is not going to leave Superman to die.

Other variables include which incarnation of Superman and Batman we're talking about. Silver Age Superman could push Earth into the Sun, but S: TAS Superman can't. How hot is his optical heat ray? Et cetera.

The thing about preparation time is Batman could make a special armor for battling the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman, such as in BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. Or maybe he ambushes Superman and hits him with Blue Kryptonite to kill his powers. Or maybe he empowered himself to Superman's level. Or maybe he brought help from other members of the Justice League. Or even all of the above. If he knew he was going to fight Superman, he wouldn't do so without knowing what he is getting himself into and being ready for it. Bruce would try to gain every possible advantage for himself and take it away from Clark, because that is what Batman does.

The Morningstar

05-09-2011, 12:39 PM

Even if Superman didn't want to kill Batman, he could speed blitz him with... a flick of his finger, and knock Bruce out.

Godzilla2014

05-09-2011, 01:05 PM

Even if Superman didn't want to kill Batman, he could speed blitz him with... a flick of his finger, and knock Bruce out.

Not if Batman used one of the solutions I presented. Really powerful armor, or turning himself into a Kryptonian. It also depends on if he has the drop on Superman. Blue Kryptonite is probably Bruce's favorite choice if he has to knock Clark Kent out. Blue Kryptonite will nullify Kal-El's Kryptonian superhuman abilities, which puts the proverbial ball in Bruce Wayne's court. If he can ambush Superman with that, and keep it on him, then it is a matter of man-to-man fighting skills, where Batman has the edge. But Batman will make damn sure to take everything he knows about into account and do his best to compensate for his own lack of super-powers.

Don't get me wrong, Batman is at a massive disadvantage against Superman, and his victory generally would require a lot of preparation, planning, and some luck, but it's not impossible. If it was impossible, then Superman's battles with Lex Luthor would be either pretty boring and/or short and Lex wouldn't be his archenemy.

hippie_hunter

05-09-2011, 01:11 PM

Why would Batman turn himself into a Kryptonian?

Drz

05-09-2011, 01:20 PM

Something that I think would be a very important factor are Batman and Superman's moral codes. Could (certain incarnations of) Superman push the Earth into the sun? Yes. Would he? Hell no. Could he incinerate Batman from a safe distance from any Kryptonite he might have? Yes. Would he? No, or Lex Luthor wouldn't be a problem. Similarly, if they ended up in a bunch of Green Kryptonite, Batman is not going to leave Superman to die.

Superman has been morally okay with murder far often then Batman has. Darkseid, Zod and whatnot others have gotten murdered by Superman while Batman has just fatally wounded criminals and god like being Darkseid for others to finish him off.

Other variables include which incarnation of Superman and Batman we're talking about. Silver Age Superman could push Earth into the Sun, but S: TAS Superman can't. How hot is his optical heat ray? Et cetera.

The thing about preparation time is Batman could make a special armor for battling the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman, such as in BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

Armor that Superman can from a distance just melt away isn't going to help him at all.

Or maybe he ambushes Superman and hits him with Blue Kryptonite to kill his powers.

Yeah because a mere Ninja can sneak upon a god like being lol. :p

If he knew he was going to fight Superman, he wouldn't do so without knowing what he is getting himself into and being ready for it. Bruce would try to gain every possible advantage for himself and take it away from Clark, because that is what Batman does.

And why can't Supes just go and stop Batman? He's so fast it's no rush, and he can just torment Bruce by playing with his dead parents corpses for giggles. :awesome: