The Official Batman Returns Thread

[TwilightPro101]

Returns is a very dark film, probably the darkest of the bunch. But just because it is extremely dark, does not mean its the best. It is however a very good film.

Agreed.

[Bat Attack]

Originally Posted by Whack Arnolds
Returns is a very dark film, probably the darkest of the bunch. But just because it is extremely dark, does not mean its the best. It is however a very good film.
I agree totally. I know it's not the best (that would be Batman Begins, IMO) but is is still my favorite Batman movie.

[Palpadious]

Batman Returns>>>>>>>>>>overrated Spider-Man crap movies

[Whack Arnolds]

Well, Batman Begins is definetely the second darkest...right behind Returns.

[Kevin Roegele]

Begins isn't very dark.

The Crow, that's a dark movie.

[Whack Arnolds]

Begins isn't very dark.

The Crow, that's a dark movie.That doesn't negate the fact that BEGINS is the second darkest Batman movie. No one is comparing it with other movies, ala the Crow. But BEGINS is most certainly a dark film.

[batmaluco]

Well, Batman Begins is definetely the second darkest...right behind Returns.
:up:

[Sandman138]

Begins isn't very dark.

The Crow, that's a dark movie.

Superficialy dark, yes.

[trustyside-kick]

Begins isn't very dark.

The Crow, that's a dark movie.

And a good one too.

[bdsproductions]

well,it is not THAT great,i enjoyed it thoughouglhy but it's not Batman,it's Tim burton it's a total Tim Burton syle over substance film.also far too unfaithful to the comics.it's good,visually and as a Tim Burton film butit's the second worst as a Batman film.

[MaskedManJRK]

well,it is not THAT great,i enjoyed it thoughouglhy but it's not Batman,it's Tim burton it's a total Tim Burton syle over substance film.also far too unfaithful to the comics.it's good,visually and as a Tim Burton film butit's the second worst as a Batman film.

It was hardly style of substance--they just hid a lot of the substance in the style. It's a modern day German Expressionism film, where you can figure out the character's thoughts and ideas within the visuals (such as Catwoman's costume falling apart in the end, representing her failing sanity at that point in time).

As for being unfaithfull, while there are differences, they're not as abundant as, say, BEGINS.

Quite frankly, they changed The Penguin for the better here. They turned a character that was almost always either a lameass super-villian or a dime-a-dozen crime boss into a flawed prophet/Christ-figure that was literary Batman's "lost orphan" side of him brought to life (same as how Catwoman was the "revenge seeking vigilantie" and Shreck was the "powerful businessman").

When it comes to Catwoman's origins, while details are changed about, the meaning of it is the same. In the pre-crisis origins of the character, Selina Kyle was a stewardiss onboard an airplane that crashed, giving her amnesia. The movie changed it by keeping it within Gotham City, giving her an equally sexist job (as a secretary in a large, male-dominated corperation), and having her fall off a building instead of an airplane.

And I still don't understand the "it's Burton, not Batman" arguement. Batman here is a wealthy businessman named Bruce Wayne who's parents were murdered and because of that, he decides to become a vigilantie known as "The Batman" to fight criminals. That is exactly the same as every other origin out there, and any other differences are either always been there, albiet subtext (Batman being a freak in a regular society), or were part of his character at some point in time (the killing was standard in the first Kane/Finger stories).

[El Payaso]

Quite frankly, they changed The Penguin for the better here. They turned a character that was almost always either a lameass super-villian or a dime-a-dozen crime boss into a flawed prophet/Christ-figure that was literary Batman's "lost orphan" side of him brought to life

...

And I still don't understand the "it's Burton, not Batman" arguement. Batman here is a wealthy businessman named Bruce Wayne who's parents were murdered and because of that, he decides to become a vigilantie known as "The Batman" to fight criminals. That is exactly the same as every other origin out there, and any other differences are either always been there, albiet subtext (Batman being a freak in a regular society), or were part of his character at some point in time (the killing was standard in the first Kane/Finger stories).

Bravo and Bravo respectively.

[Whack Arnolds]

Batman Returns...always loved it, but for years debated with myself whether I actually did??? lol, that sounded weird...but entirely true. On one hand, it is a flat out interesting movie and rather unsual expose on Batman and the mythos, on the other it dabbles in areas where it completely doesn't feel like anything close to a classic Batman story, and for the most part was one of the least entertaining of the entire bunch.

[HalloweenRes]

I agree with what many of you have said on these borads about Batman Returns. Some people seem to think that it is just a Burton movie and not a Batman movie. From a story point of view, I don't see where it is a GOOD Batman movie. I think it is a visually wonderful movie, but a Batman movie? Don't get me wrong, I love the movie; I think it is one of Burton's best, but I felt like I was watching a Burton movie and not a Batman movie. I still enjoy it though. It's a great pop corn flick and a lot of fun. Movies are suppose to transport you to places that you have never been before and who is best at doing that than Tim Burton?
However, the story lacks.. I think for kids, the movie is confusing and yes, I know, many will say, "But it's not for kids.." Well, it was marketed to kids, and I think they don't really get all of the jokes and symbolisms that are within the movie. Aside from that, the movie is one of my favorite Batman flicks. What strikes me though is that many people think it is a dark film. While Batman Returns is a DARK film, I always felt that the first Batman, perhaps, was darker. I mean, in tone and look of the sets, where as Batman Returns had a lot of scenes that took place during the day, and some of the scenes were downright bright. I guess what I mean is, the LOOK of the scenes were brighter, but the characters were DARKER.. I don't know. Both movies have a great level of darkness, and Nolan's Batman Begins is pretty dark, but they want to make the sequal even DARKER rumor has it. Visually, Batman Returns owns, but as far as telling an epic Batman tale, I think it kinda flopped...

[El Payaso]

However, the story lacks.. I think for kids, the movie is confusing and yes, I know, many will say, "But it's not for kids.." Well, it was marketed to kids, and I think they don't really get all of the jokes and symbolisms that are within the movie.

Magnific. Excellent. In terms of the hollywoodian concept of a movie for kids, the least it is for kids, the better is the movie.

[Mr. Killah]

Does anyone know what they did to Michelle's hair near the end, where it looks like a gigantic mushroom?

[snwboarder88]

Returns is a very dark film, probably the darkest of the bunch. But just because it is extremely dark, does not mean its the best. It is however a very good film.


True...but i still think its on par with BB.

It just has this feel i cant really explain to the entire movie...its awesome!

[Charlie No-One]

This was the first Batman movie I ever watched. I loved it as soon as I saw it. My favorite in the series.

[Arkady Rossovich]

I would think it was the last good Batman film before Begins came out.

[SKSpawn]

I think for kids, the movie is confusing and yes, I know, many will say, "But it's not for kids.." Well, it was marketed to kids, and I think they don't really get all of the jokes and symbolisms that are within the movie


Can just ask exactly how this film was marketed and geared towards kids? I don't recall the marketing process (was only young when the film was released) but I know there was some McDonald's marketing deal and stuff...

But, over here in England, this film, like the first, was always rated 15, so that means kiddies wouldn't be able to see it without their parents, and parents would/should have thought twice about taking their kids to see a film, even a comic book movie named Batman, to a film that is rated 15 and, thus, should have blamed themsevles rather than attacking the studio.

Parents can be real stupid sometimes.

[Cain]

I think for kids, the movie is confusing and yes, I know, many will say, "But it's not for kids.." Well, it was marketed to kids, and I think they don't really get all of the jokes and symbolisms that are within the movie.

The irony of this being that till this day there are a lot of adults out there who don't get a lot of the symbolism featured within the film. Love this movie man it has such a great atmoshphere and is easily one of the boldest blockbusters ever made. Still my favorite out of the live action ones.

[Red Mask]

There is symbolism? :huh: I just thought it had great dialogue and designs. :batty:

[DocLathropBrown]

There is symbolism? :huh: I just thought it had great dialogue and designs. :batty:

Sure there is. If nothing else, there's tons of sexual innuendo. Burton made a film that was meant to be appreciated by adults subtextually.

[Red Mask]

Sure there is. If nothing else, there's tons of sexual innuendo. Burton made a film that was meant to be appreciated by adults subtextually.

Oh yeah, skin tight costumes will bring out the hormones. Nobody does that costume more justice than Michelle Pfeiffer.

[DocLathropBrown]

Oh yeah, skin tight costumes will bring out the hormones. Nobody does that costume more justice than Michelle Pfeiffer.

There's a lot more besides that, there's plenty of verbal sexual innuendo.

[Red Mask]

There's a lot more besides that, there's plenty of verbal sexual innuendo.

I was just impressed with the overall cleverness of the dialogue. It was more poetic than the mundance stuff we hear in Batman Begins. Sexual innuendo I can get from Austin Powers.

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask".

"My name is not Oswald, my name is Penguin! I am not a human being! I am an animal!"

"It's the so-called 'normal' guys who let you down. Sickos never scare me. At least they're commited."

[DocLathropBrown]

I was just impressed with the overall cleverness of the dialogue. It was more poetic than the mundance stuff we hear in Batman Begins. Sexual innuendo I can get from Austin Powers.

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask".

"My name is not Oswald, my name is Penguin! I am not a human being! I am an animal!"

"It's the so-called 'normal' guys who let you down. Sickos never scare me. At least they're commited."

True, but my point was the verbal sexual innuendo was put in there for the adults. Kids may pick up on the other subtext, but the adults should be the only ones getting lines like "Just the pussy I've been looking for!"

[Cain]

True, but my point was the verbal sexual innuendo was put in there for the adults. Kids may pick up on the other subtext, but the adults should be the only ones getting lines like "Just the pussy I've been looking for!"

I got that line just fine when it was in theatres. Then again I had an unconvential childhood compared to most. The symbolism I was referring too though delved deeper than just sexual though. There are biblical symbolisms in this film amongst many others.

[SHADOWBAT69]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

[MaskedManJRK]

I got that line just fine when it was in theatres. Then again I had an unconvential childhood compared to most. The symbolism I was referring too though delved deeper than just sexual though. There are biblical symbolisms in this film amongst many others.

Hell, the whole opening credit sequence was an allusion to Moses. :o

There was a great thread on the BOF forum about all the symbolism in BR. I'll have to find it and put some on here.

[Cain]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

Except that with Batman Returns like 80% of Tim Burton's work the symbolism is deliberate and another way to help further the narrative since he relies on visuals a lot more than anything else.

Hell, the whole opening credit sequence was an allusion to Moses. :o

There was a great thread on the BOF forum about all the symbolism in BR. I'll have to find it and put some on here.

I'm surprised there isn't a thread like that on here already.

[Spider-Bat]

Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.

I was twelve at the time, I remember calling my best friend first thing after getting up and making plans to see the first show. We got there somewhat early but the line had already started, but we had a pretty good place in line. Maybe 15 minutes after we got there the line was into the parking lot and they had to tell people to come back for the next one, and that they couldn't be in the parking lot like that.

I was so happy to be there, I couldn't wait to see my favorite hero on the big screen again. I went every weekend to see Batman. And I saw this one every chance I got also.

I had a ton of the toys. The Batmobile, Bruce, a few different Batmans, including the one where his wings popped up, Catwoman, Penguin, and a 2 of his penguins with the missile packs.

I had all of the trading cards. I even had the cereal, which wasn't bad, it was chocolate with marshmallows.:woot:

The only thing I didn't see that I wanted to was the classic Grandfather Clock entrance, I'm still waiting to see that in a Bat-film. I'm not holding my breath for Nolan to do anything right.

All I know is Burton's Batman films are the best!!!

[Kevin Roegele]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

You do realise film is a visual art and symbolism is a huge part of that? You do realise that?

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.

Oh right. Clearly no kids were scared at all then, and we're all lying. Thanks for clearing that up.

[SHADOWBAT69]

You do realise film is a visual art and symbolism is a huge part of that? You do realise that?


I know that. I was just making a statement relating to the current discussion.



Originally Posted by Spider-Bat
Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.
Oh right. Clearly no kids were scared at all then, and we're all lying. Thanks for clearing that up.


He didnt say people were lying. He was just giving an observation based on his theatre experience. I went to see Returns 3 times in the theatre, and there were no upset kids in any of mine either. I did know about parent groups complaining tho. I think maybe they made it worse than what it actually was.


geez Kevin, quick on the trigger lately?:word:

[Bat Attack]

I caught BR on Turner Classic Movies yesterday. That channel is so awesome because they don't cut their films for content or have commercial breaks. :up:

[Bat Attack]

Batman Returns turns 15 years old in two weeks! wow.

[Catman]

Batman Returns turns 15 years old in two weeks! wow.

I feel old. :csad:

[mjbull23]

I can't believe it's been 15 years already. What a great movie.

[MaskedManJRK]

I'm surprised there isn't a thread like that on here already.

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

[fabman]

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

Yep, you def got it! I would've loved to see how the story would've continued, it's a shame Tim Burton got fired. What I would've loved to see in 'Batman 3' or 'Batman Forever' is the consequences of what happened in 'Batman Returns.'

[raleagh]

also max shrek represents a vampire.

the actor max shrek played the first screen incarnation of dracula.

in BR max shrek wants to suck the life from the city using his power station.

[ab38416]

edit

[mjbull23]

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

Great post. Very illuminating! I was on to the entire Selina revenge persona and how it ties back to Bruce.... but i never stopped to consider Schreck as representing the human side of Bruce's personality..

[ab38416]

edit

[SHADOWBAT69]

Batman Forever does build on the climax of Batman Returns & it completes the character arc Burton had crafted for Bruce Wayne. They didn't just abandon Burton's ideas. He was involved in pre-production & he even met with the writers several times to give his input. Batman Forever is about Bruce Wayne's redemption. The rediscovery of why he really became Batman, which leads to the reconciliation of his split personality. The whole "I am both Batman & Bruce Wayne not because I have to be but because I choose to be" comes from Burton.



This is a big misconception that has been debated several times here on the boards. Burton was not involved In Forever. They kept his name in the credits as a producer but had no real involvment in the film at all. He met with Schumacher ONCE so that Joel can give his take on how he wanted to do the character, he gave him the whole duality speech and Tim said "thats it. You got it". That was that, Tim basically stepped away. The only reason that even happened was because WB and Joel wanted "professional courtesy" towards Tim. WB made it very clear that they didnt want Burton involved in the project. They even told Joel to make this his own and do it his way. Burton did have a 3rd movie in mind, but nothing from Burton has ever been officialy revealed as to details. Just hearsay from others who may have worked with Tim during the duration of his 2 films, or the couple little things he may have blurbed out during interviews or his recent commentaries. Keaton was actually involved longer in Forever than Burton was, but he had no desire to go in the direction Schumacher was taking it and walked away. This rihgt there should be a hint that there is a big difference in what Burton wanted to do and what WB/Schumacher wanted to do because Keaton and Burton both were on the same page as to this franchises direction and feel. The whole duality thing wasnt Burtons sole idea, thats one of the basic premises of Batman, you cant just link one directors movie to anothers just because they keep some of the same basic elements of a character.

[Bat Attack]

This is a big misconception that has been debated several times here on the boards. Burton was not involved In Forever. They kept his name in the credits as a producer but had no real involvment in the film at all. He met with Schumacher ONCE so that Joel can give his take on how he wanted to do the character, he gave him the whole duality speech and Tim said "thats it. You got it". That was that, Tim basically stepped away. The only reason that even happened was because WB and Joel wanted "professional courtesy" towards Tim. WB made it very clear that they didnt want Burton involved in the project. They even told Joel to make this his own and do it his way. Burton did have a 3rd movie in mind, but nothing from Burton has ever been officialy revealed as to details. Just hearsay from others who may have worked with Tim during the duration of his 2 films, or the couple little things he may have blurbed out during interviews or his recent commentaries. Keaton was actually involved longer in Forever than Burton was, but he had no desire to go in the direction Schumacher was taking it and walked away. This rihgt there should be a hint that there is a big difference in what Burton wanted to do and what WB/Schumacher wanted to do because Keaton and Burton both were on the same page as to this franchises direction and feel. The whole duality thing wasnt Burtons sole idea, thats one of the basic premises of Batman, you cant just link one directors movie to anothers just because they keep some of the same basic elements of a character.
well said, :up::up:

[DocLathropBrown]

Well, I think it was Catman here that watched a TV special on Tim Burton and he said that Burton said he wrote a short treatment for BF, which was used as a basis by the Batchelors.

Dunno if it's true or not, but it would make sense, given how Burton was supposedly involved in some capacity to BF, which was decent, as opposed to B&R, where there was no Burton, and it sucked.

[SHADOWBAT69]

Yeh, it could be true. I wish it was online somewhere, I love watching stuff that has Burtons Batman info. Anyway, it could be possible Burton did have something outlined, but most treatments are only maybe 10 pages long at best, to give the studio an idea of what the basic premise of a film is. Even if some plot points were Burtons idea, it would have played so much differently with him directing it than with Schumaher. They have 2 such differenting styles of story telling when it comes to the Batman universe, in all aspects, that I find it hard to swallow that there is any link to their movies.

[Cain]

Yeh, it could be true. I wish it was online somewhere, I love watching stuff that has Burtons Batman info. Anyway, it could be possible Burton did have something outlined, but most treatments are only maybe 10 pages long at best, to give the studio an idea of what the basic premise of a film is. Even if some plot points were Burtons idea, it would have played so much differently with him directing it than with Schumaher. They have 2 such differenting styles of story telling when it comes to the Batman universe, in all aspects, that I find it hard to swallow that there is any link to their movies.

I agree with this but at the same time you can't deny whether intentional or not that the first 3 movies work very well as a trilogy in terms of Bruce/Batman's arc.

You could see how "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens was a huge influence on this film. Batman, Penguin & Catwoman represent the "ghosts" our Scrooge like character (Shreck) encounters. Only difference is they're all aspects of the same person as has been already mentioned. This movie is the psychological breakdown of Bruce Wayne in a sense and the next one represents the pieces finally being put together.

[Bat Attack]

And catwomans costume kind of represents her mental state. The costume starts out stiched together (after her big "freak out" in the apartment) but unravels throughout the rest of the film until the climax when she rips the mask off.

[ab38416]

edit

[Bat Attack]

If you watch the 3 movies carefully, there is a clear character arc going on for Bruce Wayne. The first film establishes him, the second film sends him down a dark path, & the third film redeems him. It's a classic trilogy structure. This leads me to believe that Burton did preliminary work on Batman Forever & he later met with the Batchlers to make sure they tie up all the loose ends correctly. That was all Tim contributed to the movie. Batman Forever resolves Wayne's arc, despite Schumacher's attempt to move as far away from Burton's films as possible.

Notice how the flashback scenes stand out. I'm willing to bet that most of the Red Diary subplot came from Burton's mind. He also mentioned in some interviews that if Bruce had ever gotten therapy, he wouldn't have to be Batman anymore. Well, in Batman Forever, Bruce gets therapy and is effectively cured at the end. I don't think this was a coincidence. Burton was involved with Batman Forever more than you think.

Do you have anything to back that up? The Batchlers themselves said (on the Batman Forever SE DVD, Disc 2) there was only one meeting and during it all that happened was the duality speech and it was a done deal after that.

[Mr.E.Nygma]

In conclusion, the author demonstrate that Burton directed an amazing film before turning nihilist in the third act.

[Emperor Bohe]

I was watching this 2 days ago. I forgot how beautiful this movie is.

[Kevin Roegele]

I was watching this 2 days ago. I forgot how beautiful this movie is.

It truly is. The abandoned zoo full of ice statues and the cathedral-like sewers are really wonderful, mystical places. That's what's so great about Batman movies; you can go from such gothic, borderline fantasy extremes to the sober reality(ish) of Nolan's Gotham.

[The Joker]

Batman Returns is one of the deepest, thematically rich Batman movies out there.

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Returns is one of the deepest, thematically rich Batman movies out there.

Indeed. Alongside Batman Forever.

[Bat Attack]

I love the lighting during the whole "things change" scene. Creepy and mysterious, thats the best thing about the film IMO, is the mystery of the characters. :up::up:

[Bat Attack]

wow, 15 years tomorrow.

[GoogleMe94]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6358/untitledmd1.png (http://imageshack.us)

This pic is makin me horny. god i love this film.

[GoogleMe94]

Indeed. Alongside Batman Forever.


no.


anyways, i consider thre 2 be 3 different bat-franchises. first there was burtons series, which lasted through 2 very good movies. then there was schumacher's series, which lasted through 2 pretty lousy movies. now there is nolans series, which will probably be around 3 movies, sinc haveing "trilogies" is the it thing to do with franchises nowadays. still would have prefered burtons batman 3 to all the other ones that came after his movies.

[mystory64]

If you watch the 3 movies carefully, there is a clear character arc going on for Bruce Wayne. The first film establishes him, the second film sends him down a dark path, & the third film redeems him. It's a classic trilogy structure. This leads me to believe that Burton did preliminary work on Batman Forever & he later met with the Batchlers to make sure they tie up all the loose ends correctly. That was all Tim contributed to the movie. Batman Forever resolves Wayne's arc, despite Schumacher's attempt to move as far away from Burton's films as possible.

Notice how the flashback scenes stand out. I'm willing to bet that most of the Red Diary subplot came from Burton's mind. He also mentioned in some interviews that if Bruce had ever gotten therapy, he wouldn't have to be Batman anymore. Well, in Batman Forever, Bruce gets therapy and is effectively cured at the end. I don't think this was a coincidence. Burton was involved with Batman Forever more than you think.


Uh... no I think you're reading way more into it than whats actually there. Batman Forever is a semi-sequel with a "vague" history.... :woot:

[Superman Prime]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6358/untitledmd1.png (http://imageshack.us)

This pic is makin me horny. god i love this film.


Definitive Catwoman. :hyper:

[mystory64]

Definitive Catwoman. :hyper:

Alright I gotta chime in here, visually hell ya, I totally agree, but character wise... uh, no I think not. A Secretary who gets reborn by cats biting her and then gains superpowers and turns to a life of crime? Not to mention she whoops up on Batman... uh say it again... BATMAN. To quote the film... Catwoman: "How could you? I'm a WOMAN"... and the Bats responds "I'm sorry..."... oh get outta here. It bothered me when I was 13 and it bothers me now.

I think most people mistake Returns' "darkness' with German Expressionism, Oh wow... check this out, I just now took a quick Google to get the exact definition of German Expressionism and look what I found... German Expressionist Film Today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_expressionism)

Ambitious adaptations of the style are depicted throughout the contemporary filmography of director Tim Burton. His 1992 film Batman Returns is often cited as a modern attempt to capture the essence of German Expressionism. The angular building designs and severe-looking city squares of Gotham City evoke the loom and menace present in Lang’s Metropolis. One may even notice the link between the evil character of Max Shreck portrayed by Christopher Walken, and Nosferatu's star, Max Schrek.

Burton's influences are most obvious through his fairy tale suburban landscape in Edward Scissorhands . The appearance of the titular Edward Scissorhands none too accidentally reflects the look of Caligari's somnambulist servant. Burton casts a kind of unease in his candy-colored suburb, where the tension is visually unmasked through Edward and his gothic castle perched above the houses. Burton subverts the Caligari nightmare with his own narrative branding, casting the garish “somnambulist” as the hero, and the villagers as the villains.

The familiar look of Caligari's main character can also be seen in the movie "The Crow". With the tight, black outfit, white makeup, and darkened eyes, Brandon Lee's character is obviously a close relative to Burton's film Edward Scissorhands.

If Catwoman had lit Batman on fire and tossed him out a window that would be dark, but Burton's films have a more romatic feel to them, I like them, (except penguin commandos... why corrupt penguins so?) I just want Nolans Catwoman (if it ever happens) to reflect the comic version more than the cat-powered unhappy secretary of Returns...

btw, Michelle Pfeiffer is HOT.

[GoogleMe94]

whateva mystory, michelle pfieffer IS catwoman and is the definitive film version of her, end of story. i wipe my ass with the comics, i could care less.

[mystory64]

whateva mystory, michelle pfieffer IS catwoman and is the definitive film version of her, end of story. i wipe my ass with the comics, i could care less.

Jeeze, over in the TDK forums all you do is talk up how the comics are the only way to go, great thought provoking comment you got there, Mr. Grow-Up... :whatever:

[Superman Prime]

Alright I gotta chime in here, visually hell ya, I totally agree, but character wise... uh, no I think not. A Secretary who gets reborn by cats biting her and then gains superpowers and turns to a life of crime?

What do you perceive as being her superpowers? Physical prowess? Selina already had the capability to do all those flips. Falling out the window and having cats chew on her was what instigated her mental breakdown, so she was better apt at unleashing those abilities to their fullest extent.

Not to mention she whoops up on Batman... uh say it again... BATMAN. To quote the film... Catwoman: "How could you? I'm a WOMAN"... and the Bats responds "I'm sorry..."... oh get outta here. I bothered me when I was 13 and it bothers me now.

Batman displaying sensible manners to women disturbs you? That little trick she pulled always makes me smile.

[mystory64]

What do you perceive as being her superpowers? Physical prowess? Selina already had the capability to do all those flips. Falling out the window and having cats chew on her was what instigated her mental breakdown, so she was better apt at unleashing those abilities to their fullest extent.



Batman displaying sensible manners to women disturbs you? That little trick she pulled always makes me smile.

Uh where so you get that from? She was falling all over herself in the beginning of the movie, she portrayed herself as a klutzy waitress with glasses and little self-confidence. She didn't have a mental breakdown, she DIED. The cats brought her back to life, heck, they even touched on this in the god-awful Catwoman movie. But lets say I'm wrong and you're correct, that she had some sort of physical prowess you say... enough to fight Batman? Are you kidding me? No secretary can beat up Batman, not even that broad from the Drew Carey Show, Mimi... :oldrazz: no, have to disagree with ya on this one, it's one of those things that made Returns more fantasy to me....

[Kevin Roegele]

whateva mystory, michelle pfieffer IS catwoman and is the definitive film version of her, end of story. i wipe my ass with the comics, i could care less.

Possibly the worst thing you could say on these forums.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

@GoogleMe94: Yeah, Returns Catwoman and Penguin are the definitive versions for me. If you say it like that, it makes you seem less *******-ish.

Face to Face is awesome. I just saw the vid on the Special Edition dvd a few minutes ago for the first time.

[mystory64]

@GoogleMe94: Yeah, Returns Catwoman and Penguin are the definitive versions for me. If you say it like that, it makes you seem less *******-ish.

Face to Face is awesome. I just saw the vid on the Special Edition dvd a few minutes ago for the first time.

yeah, Siouxsie and the Banshees Rocks :yay:

[Kevin Roegele]

@GoogleMe94: Yeah, Returns Catwoman and Penguin are the definitive versions for me. If you say it like that, it makes you seem less *******-ish.

Exactly.

I think Burton improved Catwoman and the Penguin. I think he elevated those characters. And then, of course, Pfeiffer and DeVito were both superb.

[Superman Prime]

Thought the first post didn't go through. Tired of having to type the same thing multiple times


stupid lag!

[Superman Prime]

Uh where so you get that from? She was falling all over herself in the beginning of the movie, she portrayed herself as a klutzy waitress with glasses and little self-confidence. She didn't have a mental breakdown, she DIED. The cats brought her back to life, heck, they even touched on this in the god-awful Catwoman movie. But lets say I'm wrong and you're correct, that she had some sort of physical prowess you say... enough to fight Batman? Are you kidding me? No secretary can beat up Batman, not even that broad from the Drew Carey Show, Mimi... :oldrazz: no, have to disagree with ya on this one, it's one of those things that made Returns more fantasy to me....

We were talking about Batman Returns, which has absolutely nothing to do with the movie called Catwoman.

:dry:

[mystory64]

We were talking about Batman Returns, which has absolutely nothing to do with the movie called Catwoman.

:dry:

Uh I think I've referenced Returns enough to make a valid point, the Catwoman movie ref was just for fun, dont make it out to be any more than that. Care to actually touch on any of my points or is that it?

ahem *insert sardonic smiley face here*

[Sandman138]

Alright I gotta chime in here, visually hell ya, I totally agree, but character wise... uh, no I think not. A Secretary who gets reborn by cats biting her and then gains superpowers and turns to a life of crime? Not to mention she whoops up on Batman... uh say it again... BATMAN. To quote the film... Catwoman: "How could you? I'm a WOMAN"... and the Bats responds "I'm sorry..."... oh get outta here. It bothered me when I was 13 and it bothers me now.

From wikipidia: In Batman #62, it is revealed that Catwoman (after a blow to the head jogged her memory) is an amnesiac flight attendant who had turned to crime after suffering a prior blow to the head during a plane crash she survived.

This is the Catwoman that they adapted in Returns, and they stayed pretty true to the basic idea: a timid woman in a sexist job suffers a near death experience, snaps, and lets loose a torrent of pent up sexuality and aggression as a costumed criminal.

I think most people mistake Returns' "darkness' with German Expressionism, Oh wow... check this out, I just now took a quick Google to get the exact definition of German Expressionism and look what I found... German Expressionist Film Today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_expressionism)

Ambitious adaptations of the style are depicted throughout the contemporary filmography of director Tim Burton. His 1992 film Batman Returns is often cited as a modern attempt to capture the essence of German Expressionism. The angular building designs and severe-looking city squares of Gotham City evoke the loom and menace present in Lang’s Metropolis. One may even notice the link between the evil character of Max Shreck portrayed by Christopher Walken, and Nosferatu's star, Max Schrek.

Burton's influences are most obvious through his fairy tale suburban landscape in Edward Scissorhands . The appearance of the titular Edward Scissorhands none too accidentally reflects the look of Caligari's somnambulist servant. Burton casts a kind of unease in his candy-colored suburb, where the tension is visually unmasked through Edward and his gothic castle perched above the houses. Burton subverts the Caligari nightmare with his own narrative branding, casting the garish “somnambulist” as the hero, and the villagers as the villains.

The familiar look of Caligari's main character can also be seen in the movie "The Crow". With the tight, black outfit, white makeup, and darkened eyes, Brandon Lee's character is obviously a close relative to Burton's film Edward Scissorhands.

If Catwoman had lit Batman on fire and tossed him out a window that would be dark, but Burton's films have a more romatic feel to them, I like them, (except penguin commandos... why corrupt penguins so?) I just want Nolans Catwoman (if it ever happens) to reflect the comic version more than the cat-powered unhappy secretary of Returns...

btw, Michelle Pfeiffer is HOT.

German Expressionist films were dark and macabre tales of madness and despair inevitably crushing the protaganists and bringing them down with the world around them. Like existentialism, German Expressionism was born out of the angst and hopelessness of the first World War, and the films reflected the idea that the world was cruel and the people who were forced to see the world for what it truely was would inevitably lose themselves to madness and despair.

As for Returns not being dark, what is romantic about kidnapping sleeping children and drowning them in industrial waste?

[mystory64]

Exactly.

I think Burton improved Catwoman and the Penguin. I think he elevated those characters. And then, of course, Pfeiffer and DeVito were both superb.

I would agree, tho I'm still stuck on Penguin... I like the monster movie take on the characters, in keeping with a fantasy theme it makes sense. I LOVE the set design per the Zoo, thats a cool base of operations for a comic book villain. That all being said, I still wish Selina had been a jewel thief, or animal activist chick rather than the secretary take. Ever read the San Hamm script for Returns?, Catwoman and Penguin teamed up to find a hidden lost treasure in Gotham City. Turns out it's in the Batcave, there was a whole cool twist as to why it's there, I really wish we would have gotten to see some of that in the film, but its neither here nor there. Love the music in Returns the most, especially Penguins march music... that still gives me the goosebumps...

[Superman Prime]

The secretary had the physical capability. She never exploited it while on her job, because she was obviously anxious, self-conscious and scatter-brained.

[mystory64]

From wikipidia: In Batman #62, it is revealed that Catwoman (after a blow to the head jogged her memory) is an amnesiac flight attendant who had turned to crime after suffering a prior blow to the head during a plane crash she survived.

This is the Catwoman that they adapted in Returns, and they stayed pretty true to the basic idea: a timid woman in a sexist job suffers a near death experience, snaps, and lets loose a torrent of pent up sexuality and aggression as a costumed criminal.



German Expressionist films were dark and macabre tales of madness and despair inevitably crushing the protaganists and bringing them down with the world around them. Like existentialism, German Expressionism was born out of the angst and hopelessness of the first World War, and the films reflected the idea that the world was cruel and the people who were forced to see the world for what it truely was would inevitably lose themselves to madness and despair.

As for Returns not being dark, what is romantic about kidnapping sleeping children and drowning them in industrial waste?

Yeah and think everyone here agrees that Returns fits your description nicely, Penguins story definitely sees that the world as a cruel place and each of the main characters loses themselves to madness. The Penguin killing children is him losing himself to madness, giving in to the cruelty of the world. His parents killed him, threw him away, he tried to play the game and be a part of society but fails and loses it. I didn't say it wasn't dark, I was merely trying to elaborate on how it's darkness is different from the Nolan film(s). When I say romantic, I'm talking in the Edward Scissorhands, evil monster, Frankenstein, Poe-esque realm dark fantasy kind of way, not wine and roses man.

Returns is most definitely dark and macabre, but it plays very much like a fairy tale right from the very beginning till the end. As for the Selina bit, sure I get her becoming evil, but no way could she take on Bruce who has spent a life time of training, I just dont buy that. Plane crash, being thrown out a building or whatever...

Useless example number one: Take Britney Spears in all her angst right now and throw her in the ring with Chuck Liddell... who do you think wins? :woot:

[Kevin Roegele]

As for the Selina bit, sure I get her becoming evil, but no way could she take on Bruce who has spent a life time of training, I just dont buy that. Plane crash, being thrown out a building or whatever...

Useless example number one: Take Britney Spears in all her angst right now and throw her in the ring with Chuck Liddell... who do you think wins? :woot:

Yeah, but it's not Britney and Liddell, it's Pfieffer and Keaton, and it works within the context of the movie. And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't.

[mystory64]

Yeah, but it's not Britney and Liddell, it's Pfieffer and Keaton, and it works within the context of the movie. And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't.

Uh okay, it's Batman man, I think it's safe to infer he's had alot of training to do the job, even if it's not directly mentioned in the Burton movies. As for the context, it's why I felt the cats gave her some kind of special powers or something, it's the only way I can rationalize her being able to fight with Batman out of nowhere. Still, I feel it's more a suspension of disbelief deal, it happens so you have to deal with it. Just like how Penguins gang just happens to have the blueprints of the Batmobile, or can turn real penguins in to the equivalent of a droid army. All that aside, I can disagree with that bit of story and still enjoy the film, don't think I'm saying it wasn't a cool flick, I do...

However, I still look forward to more interpretations of both those characters.

[Kevin Roegele]

Uh okay, it's Batman man, I think it's safe to infer he's had alot of training to do the job, even if it's not directly mentioned in the Burton movies. As for the context, it's why I felt the cats gave her some kind of special powers or something, it's the only way I can rationalize her being able to fight with Batman out of nowhere.

I don't think it's as much a suspension of disbelief as simply not important. In a more rational and logical version of Batman, i.e. Nolan's, it would all be explained exactly how old Selina Kyle was when she began kickboxing, which gym she went to, and so on. Such is Nolan's style.

Burton himself doesn't care about such things. He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important. As you yourself stated, "It's Batman, man". Same with Catwoman.

[Superman Prime]

I don't think it's as much a suspension of disbelief as simply not important. In a more rational and logical version of Batman, i.e. Nolan's, it would all be explained exactly how old Selina Kyle was when she began kickboxing, which gym she went to, and so on. Such is Nolan's style.

Burton himself doesn't care about such things. He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important. As you yourself stated, "It's Batman, man". Same with Catwoman.

Exactly.

And it's not that Burton utterly ignores the 'how' ... a hint was dropped in Batman 1989 that Bruce Wayne had been in Japan. So we fill in the blanks with imagination, since the finer details of the 'how' aren't too important to the movie itself. Batman is Batman, he has these fighting abilities, perhaps gaining some/most while training in Japan ... and we sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Bat Attack]

Happy 15th Anniversary Batman Returns! :batman:

[Superman Prime]

A decade and a half of existance, and still a great movie. That means it's classic.

[mystory64]

And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't....He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important.
Exactly. Batman is Batman, he has these fighting abilities, perhaps gaining some/most while training in Japan ... and we sit back and enjoy the ride.

Yeah thats what I've been saying you're both changing the discussion, my point was that Batman CAN fight, he's a trained professional, I already mentioned that it was INFERRED in the Burton films not actually shown, and that all being said, NO WAY could a disgruntled secretary whoop ass on Batman. She... IMO btw.... MUST have gotten some kind of supernatural power when she was resurrected, thats all I've been saying.

You've both shunted that idea to no end, so just to be clear, I LIKE THE MOVIE, it's a dark film that leans heavily on German Expressionism, it plays like a dark fantasy much in the vein of Edward Scissorhands, and Catwoman has supernatural strength as there is no way she could lay a hand on a trained fighter such as Batman.

Wheew.... okay, thanx. :)

[Kevin Roegele]

Yeah thats what I've been saying you're both changing the discussion, my point was that Batman CAN fight, he's a trained professional, I already mentioned that it was INFERRED in the Burton films not actually shown, and that all being said, NO WAY could a disgruntled secretary whoop ass on Batman. She... IMO btw.... MUST have gotten some kind of supernatural power when she was resurrected, thats all I've been saying.

You've both shunted that idea to no end, so just to be clear, I LIKE THE MOVIE, it's a dark film that leans heavily on German Expressionism, it plays like a dark fantasy much in the vein of Edward Scissorhands, and Catwoman has supernatural strength as there is no way she could lay a hand on a trained fighter such as Batman.

Wheew.... okay, thanx. :)

If you go back and read my post, we're not changing the discussion. It all relates. What I said was that, just as Burton feels no real need to explain Batman's physical prowess (because the audience already knows and expects Batman to be a great fighter), the same applies to Catwoman. You might very well assume that Selina is given some kind of ass-kicking powers by the cats, but that's not stated anywhere, and is ultimately not important. She kicks ass because she's Catwoman. Ipso facto.

It's just like the Penguin's crazy trick umbrellas (who cares where they come from? It's the Penguin). Or the Batmobile. Burton understands that there is no need to explain it or try and sell it to the audience because we love the Batmobile, we expect to see it and we're already willing to suspend disbelief for it. And it's just more dramatic and imposing if this huge, weird, creepy black car appears from nowhere. :):up:

[Rockbottom]

This maybe off topic from what your all currently talking about but i have to say it lol, something that i always notice from Returns is at the end when Bruce takes his mask off, you can see Keatons make up disappear in one shot of Bruce/Batman to the next, its really noticible lol, I dont know why they didnt have Bruce tear the mask off from the back, then no one would be able to see it. Anyone else noticed this?

[Kevin Roegele]

This maybe off topic from what your all currently talking about but i have to say it lol, something that i always notice from Returns is at the end when Bruce takes his mask off, you can see Keatons make up disappear in one shot of Bruce/Batman to the next, its really noticible lol, I dont know why they didnt have Bruce tear the mask off from the back, then no one would be able to see it. Anyone else noticed this?

Oh yeah, we've noticed that. It's a weird editing choice, one I'm tempted to correct myself on YouTube....

[Rockbottom]

I can understand that they had to do it, but I dont see why it couldnt of happened from a different angle or something. Its bugged me ever since i first noticed it lol.

[Kevin Roegele]

I can understand that they had to do it, but I dont see why it couldnt of happened from a different angle or something. Its bugged me ever since i first noticed it lol.

Exactly. Or just go straight to the part of the shot where he's tearing off his mask, so Batman's hand obscures his eyes and we can't see the lack of make-up.

[Rockbottom]

I agree totally.

[Bat Attack]

Or they could have shot it from behind...?

[mystory64]

Well, I think either way he would have ended up having "raccoon" eyes during his talk with Catwoman, so I guess no make-up would have been better than that.

[GoogleMe94]

yeah im glad they didnt do the "racoon" eyes cuz that would have been so damn lame, and ruin that brilliant scene. very poignant.

you know, a few years ago back when i was in about 10th/11th grade, i wasnt so crazy about this batman film, or batman in general. this was of course before Begins came out, and i got back into batman again. so one day around this time i decided to watch both Returns since it had been a while since i watched it and i remember it being kinda creepy and scary. so i watched it, expecting nothing much to happen, but damn, i walked away really effected by this film. it was so....deep! the characters were awsome and tragic, the atmosphere, the acting, it was all just done so well. the end scene for me is just breataking. i just remember thinking afterwards "why didnt burton make a 3rd one? this was brilliant!". the sharp, witty dark dialogue was great, and it was very emotional and entertaining all at the same time. i really felt for all the characters, and after i watched this film i always looked at the comics versions as somewhat lame and 2 dimensional. even Begins, which was pretty good, didnt effect me in the same way that Returns did. Returns was truly dark, and when i saw Begins, i thought it reminded me more of the first Spiderman, for some odd reason.

anyway, faithful or not so faithful, this is a brilliant, and underrated batman film. glad to see other ppl who see it for the masterpiece it is. i actually like it better then B89, but personally i think they are both on par with each other. michelle pfieffer stole the show in this one, but all 3 of them were great, but i loved her character the most. so beautiful, so tragic, so badass! keaton and her had GREAT chemistry, and the best love interest in all the batman films so far.

oh btw, that siouxie and he banshees video and song are just great. its romantic in a goth/new age kind of way, kinda hypnotic and it fit that whole scene very well. and cmon, siouxie is pretty hot herself! i wish elfman would release extended versions of both his batman albums, cuz i love elfmans little moments he throws in there. like at the exact moment when bruce realizes selinda is catwoman, and they pull back, elfmans music right at that moment is just so beautiful.

[SHADOWBAT69]

There are so many great scenes in Returns. The whole ending with Bruce and Alfred driving up until we see the symbol and Catwomans head pop up is fantastic. I also believe that the confrontation between Bats and Penguin during the Circus Gang attacks is one of the best hero/villain scenes ever.

[Jack O Lantern]

If Catwoman had lit Batman on fire and tossed him out a window that would be dark, but Burton's films have a more romatic feel to them, I like them, (except penguin commandos... why corrupt penguins so?) I just want Nolans Catwoman (if it ever happens) to reflect the comic version more than the cat-powered unhappy secretary of Returns...

btw, Michelle Pfeiffer is HOT.

What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark if we see that the incident has an emotional effect on that character, but, as in the case of Batman Begins, three days later he is OK again then that's not dark, that's just a guy on fire.

[Superman Prime]

What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark if we see that the incident has an emotional effect on that character, but, as in the case of Batman Begins, three days later he is OK again then that's not dark, that's just a guy on fire.

True.

[Kevin Roegele]

Dark is Mr and Mrs Cobblepott throwing their son into a sewer - at Christmas.

[Spider-Bat]

BR is such an amazing movie, at least Burton got Batman, his movies had that Batman feel to it, they have the Bat-spirit in them. Nolan's have nothing.

[GoogleMe94]

yeah, begins i would put on par with any other action movie today. it just didnt have that batman feel to it, and so far it looks like TDK wont have that "feel" to it, but i guess everyone has a right to there own interpretation, but nolans movies just dont have that batman mood to it. storywise, sure, begins is pretty faithful, and sure, wayne might be a bulked up football player like all the fanboys want, but does that alone give it the batman feel? not really. i think even worse then batman, the villians were extremly unentertaining and not like the comics at all, especially scarecrow. at least burton knew how to make his villians fun and scary at the same time, nolans version of the villians was underwhelming, to say the least. i really hope he doesnt screw up the joker.

[Kevin Roegele]

BR is such an amazing movie, at least Burton got Batman, his movies had that Batman feel to it, they have the Bat-spirit in them. Nolan's have nothing.

I wouldn't say Nolan's has nothing.

[mystory64]

BR is such an amazing movie, at least Burton got Batman, his movies had that Batman feel to it, they have the Bat-spirit in them. Nolan's have nothing.

Nothing? Hmmm have to disagree there, sorry but uh, as much as I like Burtons films theres plenty more material to cover beyond the uber creepy gothic version of the Batman mythos.

[Kevin Roegele]

Nothing? Hmmm have to disagree there, sorry but uh, as much as I like Burtons films theres plenty more material to cover beyond the uber creepy gothic version of the Batman mythos.

Exactly. If Batman could only be done in one tone, it would never have lasted.

Once Nolan has done his films, there will be a different version of Batman (and some will say that is the definitive Batman) and so on. It will always be like that, and thank goodness.

[GoogleMe94]

yeah, there will always be ppl saying "this is the definitive batman" "no, THIS is the definitive batman" "your BOTH wrong! "THIS is the definitive batman" and so on and so forth. IMO, noone is really wrong or right now. both nolan and burton have gotten and understood the character to a certain extent, but neither of them have gotten batman perfectly. there are still things that are missing or shouldnt be there, but does that really matter? no, not really. all that matters is, did you enjoy THIS film version of batman or not? did this film effect you in a good way or bad way?

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark if we see that the incident has an emotional effect on that character, but, as in the case of Batman Begins, three days later he is OK again then that's not dark, that's just a guy on fire.

Dark is having Pee Wee Herman for a daddy. :oldrazz:

"Ah ****! Picked the cute one."

I actually felt just a little sorry for pengy when the crowd turned on him and he started pacing back and forth like a caged animal. Perhaps it was the wonderful score during this scene. After it passed, I went back to hating his guts.

If setting a guy on fire is dark, then Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is a dark movie, by your standards.

[Jack O Lantern]

Did you just stop reading my post after I said "What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark?"

[Spider-Bat]

I'm watching Returns right now and, my God, Keaton is so incredible as Bruce Wayne/Batman. His eyes are so haunting, his voice is that perfect gravelly, dark tone, everything is perfect. I don't care that he's not as big as Bale, he just nailed it!

[Superman Prime]

I'm watching Returns right now and, my God, Keaton is so incredible as Bruce Wayne/Batman. His eyes are so haunting, his voice is that perfect gravelly, dark tone, everything is perfect. I don't care that he's not as big as Bale, he just nailed it!

Indeed he did!

[El Payaso]

I'm watching Returns right now and, my God, Keaton is so incredible as Bruce Wayne/Batman. His eyes are so haunting, his voice is that perfect gravelly, dark tone, everything is perfect. I don't care that he's not as big as Bale, he just nailed it!

In fact he doesn't neeed to be that tall. In fact not even Bale needs to be that tall.

[Superman Prime]

Any actor that requires extreme height can always be fixed with film magic (CGI technology).

[Rockbottom]

In fact he doesn't neeed to be that tall. In fact not even Bale needs to be that tall.
I agree, It never has bothered me that Keaton was short. Like Burton says, he chose Keaton because he looks like he would need to put on a Bat suit.

[Kevin Roegele]

Does Batman or Bruce Wayne ever look short in the movie?

It doesn't matter how tall Keaton is in real life, all that matters is how tall Batman looks in the movie. And he looks of average height.

[Mr. Socko]

Batman was just a badass in this film, he took no prisoners, definitely had a DKR feel to it mixed with AA.

I love when Batman sets the man on fire and when he straps dynamite to the fat man then punches his ass down the hole and he blows up. No remorse, didn't even think twice. Keaton must have been having a bad day on that day of shooting lol

[Superman Prime]

I agree, It never has bothered me that Keaton was short. Like Burton says, he chose Keaton because he looks like he would need to put on a Bat suit.

Yeah. The logic was that a tall body builder putting on the batsuit would be impractical. I understand where Burton was coming from, but I can imagine quite vividly a large muscular man putting on the batsuit and really needing it.

Whatever the reason behind it, I'm thankful that they settled on Keaton.

[Bat Attack]

yeah, there will always be ppl saying "this is the definitive batman" "no, THIS is the definitive batman" "your BOTH wrong! "THIS is the definitive batman" and so on and so forth. IMO, noone is really wrong or right now. both nolan and burton have gotten and understood the character to a certain extent, but neither of them have gotten batman perfectly. there are still things that are missing or shouldnt be there, but does that really matter? no, not really. all that matters is, did you enjoy THIS film version of batman or not? did this film effect you in a good way or bad way?
Calm down, Batwing6655.

[ab38416]

edit

[Damiean Dark]

BR Wwill always rule for me Keaton wore the suit like a perfect fitting glove i said it once and ill say it again Bales (who is 2nd in the best bat pantheon) only plus above Keaton is in his looks such is the strength of Keatons performance is that you completely forget about his looks during the movie.

[Damiean Dark]

Keaton displayed in his eyes more then any of the other batman interpretations did in pages of spoken script.

[SelinaAndBruce]

Batman Returns is my favorite out the series. Favorite Batsuit and favorite Batgirlfriend too if my name does not say so:oldrazz:

[WorthyStevens]

I can't decide if this or Begins is my favorite Batman movie. I just love the gothic look of Returns. And the music. And the acting/actors. And the SNES videogame, which I used to play religiously as a kid.

[JB14]

I remeber in the lead up to Returns being released these pictures gave me a knot in my stomach I was so excited I just stared at them on my bedroom wall in anticipation for a film that is burned into my conciousness and is just the best film film of all time. Just brilliant. Actually, looking at these I may have to go and watch it again.

http://www.moviebazaar.de/filmbat2.jpg


http://www.kino.de/pix/newspics/GALERIE/180704_3.jpg


http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/batman_returns/_group_photos/michael_keaton4.jpg


http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/quiz1053outcome1.jpg

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/batman_returns/danny_devito/batmanreturnsdvd2.jpg

http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/b/batmanr.jpg

http://www.batmannews.de/gotham_multimedia/bat_art/pics_big/batman_returns_wallpaper_ba.jpg

[JB14]

Here's an awesome video for all you Returns lovers out there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-L3X2cnjo0

Watch it right up to the end it's great.

[JP]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=278499

[Superman Prime]

Great avatar, JP.

[JP]

Why thank you. :)

[snwboarder88]

Bump

[Damiean Dark]

I actually HATED returns when i first saw it when i was around twelve (a dodgeypirate tape) i thought they massacared the batman franchise and the villains where terrible it was only years later when i grew and got older i realised what an amazing movie it was the acting and interaction between the characters has never been bettered in a hero movie.

[ab38416]

edit

[Mr. Socko]

I actually agree with what Burton says there, except the "Batman's not a strapping macho man." I'll take it as he was just referring to his films and not Batman in general because the real one, of the comics, really is a strapping macho man.

[ab38416]

edit

[Gianakin_]

“A square jaw does not make Batman. It's all about Bruce Wayne and an audience believing in Bruce Wayne. If we can create a portrayal of a guy so obsessed and so driven - nearly to the point of being psychotic - then we can convince them that he's the guy capable of dressing up like a Bat. He puts on a bat suit because he NEEDS to. Because he’s not this gigantic, strapping macho man. Because the knowledge of his vulnerability compels him to don the masquerade of the invincible strong man he knows he is not. It’s like, if he had gotten therapy he wouldn’t be putting on a bat suit. He didn’t, so this is his therapy” – TIM BURTON


He gets it IMO, the same way Nolan and Raimi get it. Believe in the man behind the mask, and you'll believe the symbol he is when he dons the costume.

[The Empire Ape]

“A square jaw does not make Batman. It's all about Bruce Wayne and an audience believing in Bruce Wayne. If we can create a portrayal of a guy so obsessed and so driven - nearly to the point of being psychotic - then we can convince them that he's the guy capable of dressing up like a Bat. He puts on a bat suit because he NEEDS to. Because he’s not this gigantic, strapping macho man. Because the knowledge of his vulnerability compels him to don the masquerade of the invincible strong man he knows he is not. It’s like, if he had gotten therapy he wouldn’t be putting on a bat suit. He didn’t, so this is his therapy” – TIM BURTON


Well, I think he was just trying to justify Keaton. He wanted Keaton, so he said this. Because even the most muscular man would get problems with weapons and a large number of guys :cwink:

[snwboarder88]

The Dark Knight was AWESOME!

But Batman Returns continues to be my favorite BatFilm.

Just amazing story, Characters, Humor, for me BR just has this feeling about it that is Batman. Somthing i dont think Nolan has captured...then again he might not be trying to.

Burton really got the erie feeling that Gotham should have, and the scenes Between Batman and Catwoman are amazing.

Plus...could the dialogue be any more witty!

Still my #1 Batman Film!

[DACrowe]

Well it may be my fourth favorite but I second that it is a great movie and probably the most artistic and creative Batman movie made to date. I'd also say Burton explored these characters far deeper and used a much richer cinematic vernacular in telling his story that pulled heavily from German Expressionism, film noir, grande guignol, etc. than in B'89.

A very beautiful, haunting and bizarre movie.

[obiwan]

BR was much more of an adult movie than TDK though. The problem with BR was the mass marketing of it to kids. The merchandise was everywhere. I think the only movie I've seen since with as much promotion aside from the newer SW movies was Jurassic Park. But ya it was mostly how violent, dark, and sexual BR turned out to be that made it a horrible kids movie. TDK wasn't marketed to kids like BR was by a long shot. I really didn't think TDK was that dark or twisted.. just more serious.

[Kevin Roegele]

What other movie franchise (or character) could give you two great movies (Returns and TDK) that are so radically different?

http://wayangtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/batman_the_dark_knight.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1699/148882-batman_400.jpg

[obiwan]

bale looks like val kilmer in that pic. actually, there were alot of moments in TDK where i thought bale looked like kilmer in the cowl.

[snwboarder88]

What other movie franchise (or character) could give you two great movies (Returns and TDK) that are so radically different?

http://wayangtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/batman_the_dark_knight.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1699/148882-batman_400.jpg

Great Point!

Just like different authors take on Batman in comic and change things to their own taste, i really enjoy how Burton, Nolan, and even that Shu guy...interperated Batman.

How boring would it be to have 6 movies all the same!!!

[snwboarder88]

Edit

[Cain]

Very good film not great but almost great lots of stand out performances and rock solid direction. Still strange how a major studio let Burton make a german expressionistic summer blockbuster with dickensian themes and other nods that people who know too much crap for their own good about movies and art will catch with repeat viewings lol. Probably one of the most divisive films of all time, I'm definitely in the love it category. It's very entertaining.

[DarkKnight245]

I feel Returns is the unsung hero of the Burton/Schumacher series. It's so wrongly underrated. I loved how dark and sinister it was which is something Burton brought to Batman really well. He captured Batman's dark side and always kept it dark. He showed us that Batman is more then just a guy in a batsuit. Danny and Michelle were excellent as Penguin and Catwoman. It's a shame that Burton wasn't able to do Forever since he wanted to make it exactly like Returns. I would have liked to have seen another Returns. It's my 2nd fav Batman movie.

[Cain]

Upping cuase I just came across a couple of interesting retrospective reviews

http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/batmanreturnsse.php

As with the 1989 release of Batman (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/batmanse.php), I was at the midnight showing with every other comic book geek in the Chicago suburbs. Yet, the feeling I had leaving the theater early that morning was profoundly different. To be honest, I didn't know what to think. Batman Returns was unlike any other film I'd experienced. If I had to think of four words that night to describe it, I'd have chosen…

Bleak

The wintry setting made the theater's air-conditioning that much colder.

Raw

Like chapped winter skin, the character's emotions envelop you in a sheath of exposed nerve endings.

Vulnerable

From the opening sequence to the final credits, there's an overwhelming sense of sadness that permeates nearly every frame.

Personal

I'd never felt such empathy for heroes and villains alike. There are no winners here. Even in victory, there is loss.

I wasn't the only one perplexed. Leaving the theater, it wasn't hard to overhear fellow audience members toss around phrases such as "I hated it," "That wasn't Batman," and "See, I knew they'd screw it up." Even though I was experiencing strong emotions, contempt wasn't one of them.

Now, having seen Batman Returns more than a dozen times over the course of the past 13 years, I firmly believe many films cannot be fully appreciated after only one viewing.

Oh, and those feelings I was struggling with on opening night? I now recognize them as…

Awe—at the world Burton and his creative team created.

Reverence—for peeling back and delving deep beneath the surface layers of these decades old characters to discover their humanity.

Am I gushing? Perhaps…but not without good reason.
Whereas other comic book films—X-Men (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/xmen1point5.php), Fantastic Four (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/fantasticfour.php), Spider-man (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/spidermandeluxe.php)—have taken the explosive, CGI, Jerry Bruckheimer route, Batman Returns is subtle, grounded, and real. Batman is a human consumed by the desire for justice. He has no super-human abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Batman's arsenal is made up of exceptional observation skills, a sharp intellect, finely honed physical skills, and the innate ability to emotionally detach from a stressful situation. Burton exploits this humanity as the foundation upon which the film is built.
The true power of Batman Returns is found in the character relationships…

"After dark all cats are leopards."—Native American Proverb

Selina and Max

Here we have the archetypal alpha-male—rich, powerful, feared—controlling the subservient zeta-female—meek, eager to please, lacking any self-confidence. Selina's awakening doesn't turn the tables, but rather puts her on a level playing field, opening Max's eyes to the opportunities her newfound confidence and overt sexuality represents, which in turn raises his own game. In essence, they've gone from show dog and house cat to timber wolf and black panther.

"Every bird loves to hear himself sing."—Italian Proverb

Max and Oswald

Yet another opportunistic pairing. Oswald blackmails Max into setting his plans in motion. Yet, at the same time, Max sees this as an opportunity to expand his own influence over the City of Gotham. Neither is trusting of the other, and both have built-in escape plans to be activated at the first sign of trouble. Even so, the awareness they receive from working together accelerates their respective personal agendas in ways neither anticipated.

"He who plays with a cat must bear its scratches."—Chinese Proverb

Penguin and Catwoman

A match made in hell. His interest in her is nothing more than unbridled lust. She sees him as little more than yet another tool to be exploited in pursuit of vengeance against The Batman. Their relationship is tenuous and short-lived, but no less entertaining.

"The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise, we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them."—author and monk Thomas Merton

Catwoman and Batman

A sadistic game of cat and mouse. She plays him and he allows it. Both are getting what they want—dangerous sexual excitement in the form of a worthy adversary.

"Love takes off masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within."—playwright James Arthur Baldwin

Bruce and Selina

Two lost souls, each drawn to the power the other generates, simply by knowing their true selves. So close they are to finding completeness in sharing themselves with another, and yet so afraid of revealing their secrets for fear of losing that very identity. The moment those masks are removed is the most touching and heartbreaking scene of the entire film.

Beautifully written and skillfully portrayed, Batman Returns showcases an ensemble par excellence. Michael Keaton returns to the role—somewhat hesitantly, as the story goes—giving Bruce depth of character and emotion. Often times, no dialogue is required to receive the volumes of subtext coming through loud and clear.

Michael Gough (Sleepy Hollow (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/sleepyhollow.php)) is once again by Keaton's side as Alfred Pennyworth—surrogate father, confidant, and voice of reason. Danny DeVito is brilliantly unrecognizable as Penguin, the grotesque chief denizen of Gotham's literal underworld.

Michelle Pfieffer gives a career making transformation from the hopelessly awkward Selina to the supremely commanding Catwoman. Christopher Walken once again brightens the screen with yet another masterful, smarmy psychopath in the body of Max Shreck. Let's face it, you will not find a superhero film with more depth of performance authenticity than is captured here.

Burton and company seal the deal with production values grander than the character's 75-year history. Shifting locations from London to Los Angeles, production design Bo Welch had 16 of Hollywood's largest soundstages upon which to build and chill a brand new Gotham. More creative control—earned through the enhanced box office respectability of Batman and Edward Scissorhands—gives Batman Returns the director's unique visual stamp. Like the cross section of a grand old tree, Gotham's history can be seen in its conglomeration of architectural styles—neo-classical here, art deco there—merging together to show it's innate ability to survive despite the decades of moral and spiritual degradation that has overtaken it. In essence, the city becomes as important a character as those who populate it.

With design as the infrastructure and story/acting as the building blocks, the heart of the film belongs to composer Danny Elfman's magnificent score. With more than twice the music of an average film, Elfman uses the holidays to underscore the character's conflicted emotions and dastardly manipulations. His themes will stay will you long after the final credits roll.


http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=4940


Strap in, kids. I’ve got a lot to say about this deeply misunderstood film. Upon its initial release, BATMAN RETURNS was deemed a commercial disappointment, and the general public seemed to feel that, in some way, Tim Burton had made a mistake, or had "ruined" the BATMAN sequel. I was a fan even then, and my love of the film has only grown in the years since. However, even with films I am fond of, I force myself to take long breaks between viewings. The last time I watched BR was in early ‘95, on laserdisc. After that, it sat on a shelf, just waiting for me to find the right time to pick it back up and re-examine its special wonders. The release of Joel Schumacher’s epic BATMAN IN RUBBER seemed to be the right time.

Boy, am I glad I did. BATMAN RETURNS was a whole new film for me, and a better one than ever before. This was the first time I truly picked up on what I believe the purpose of the film is. It’s something much bigger than just making a "cool superhero movie." In fact, I think the last thing on Burton’s mind was telling a typical action story.

Instead, this is a tribute to German Expressionism, and a chance to examine the fragmentation of personality. It’s a witty, multi-leveled screenplay that reveals greater riches the deeper the viewer digs, and there are any number of greatish performances to choose from. Of course, there’s Michael Keaton at the heart of the thing.

Let me first say that I’m no great admirer of the original 1989 BATMAN, having felt it was a case of missed potential. In particular, I never felt that Keaton really clicked with his dual role. By contrast, his work in the sequel is bold, cool, and confident. His performance reveals a man who has forgotten how to effectively be Bruce Wayne. He’s not really alive until he puts on the Batsuit and goes to work. He is truly losing his grip on "normal" life, and he doesn’t seem to mind in the least. A common criticism of the film is that it’s not really about Batman... but that’s not true. Not at all. In fact, every character in this movie is in some way a dark, perverted mirror of the various fragments of Bruce/Batman’s shattered personality.

There’s The Penguin... left without parents to rot, planning revenge on the forces that be. Wayne works his parental loss out nightly, and that’s really all The Penguin is doing. They simply act out in very different ways. In the first scene of The Penguin on TV, Bruce is shaken by his story. When Alfred asks why, Bruce can only mumble, "I hope he finds his parents." There’s also a sense that Bruce does not "belong" among normal people anymore. He seems uncomfortable with the most mundane things. He’s as much a freak on the inside as The Penguin is on the outside. Danny DeVito does some of the finest work of his career here, and Stan Winston’s brilliant makeup helps him in large part. There’s no doubt that this particular incarnation of The Penguin waddled out of the mind of Tim Burton... even without seeing his sketches of the character, I can guess exactly what they looked like.

This is a fantastic realization of one of Tim’s ideas, brought to life. It’s a wicked reimagining of the character, and unlike the changes Joel Schumacher has made to comic continuity, there’s a reason for it. Burton’s work always deals with outsiders, characters on the fringe, and The Penguin is a signature creation. It’s hard to believe that anyone could just call him "the bad guy" of the piece after the haunting opening sequence, one of the finest five minute segments of Tim’s career as a filmmaker so far. Like a dark, twisted Moses, the baby Cobblepot is set afloat, only to be taken in by... penguins in the sewers?! That’s the first hint that this is not going to be some safe, predictable comic book ride.

Catwoman, or Selina Kyle, is a totally different side of Batman’s personality, reflected back and distorted. The timid Kyle really comes into her own following her trauma, finding a voice and a power that she would have never had the nerve to claim as her own if not for Max Shreck’s actions. She is clearly the side of Batman that gets off on the whole thing, and I don’t mean that flippantly. If you really watch Batman in this movie, he loves his toys and his gadgets. Given the choice between the stairs or his funky Iron Maiden elevator chute, he takes the chute. After all... that’s why he built it, right? I can believe this particular Bruce Wayne is the kind of guy who would spend the time and the money to build all these bizarre, almost fetishistic items. As much as Schumacher wanted to make the "kinky" Batman, a sculpted butt does not signify kink. It’s behavior, the psychology of what makes these people tick. That’s why Bruce and Selina are so drawn to one another. They recognize something in each other, some sort of strange energy. Just as much as it attracts them, it also drives them apart.

The "love" scene set on the couch in Wayne Manor is smart and funny because it acknowledges the double life they’re leading, with them wanting to give in completely, but with their wounds keeping them apart. The very best moment in the movie is at Shreck’s costume ball, when the only two people to show up without masks are Selina and Bruce, although the argument could be made that those are their masks... that they are only really themselves as Catwoman and Batman. As the two of them dance, we see that Selina is holding on to the last bit of her sanity as best she can, and that she really wants to do what she sees as "good" by killing Shreck. Bruce tries to talk her out of it, and the two of them accidentally end up echoing some dialogue they had said to each other earlier in their other personas. "A kiss can be even deadlier if you mean it..." Bruce slips, and there is a moment, wonderfully performed by Keaton and Pfeiffer, of pure recognition. Bruce pulls her to himself, and as tears fill her eyes, she says, torn apart by the thought, "Does this mean we have to start fighting?" There has been no more human or naked moment in any of the films so far.

Finally, there’s Shreck, the "extra" villain. I’ve heard people say that he’s useless, that he adds nothing to the film. Yet, he manages to mirror another part of Bruce, the businessman. Even though Wayne seems to be a decent sort, it’s hard to be a billionaire and be completely clean. Bruce manages to stay above the daily dirt of his business empire, detached and therefore "innocent." Shreck, on the other hand, revels in his power to buy and sell practically anyone or anything. His manipulations of Gotham politics and money are in direct opposition to Bruce’s hands-off quality. He is exactly what Bruce could become with just a little push. So is Catwoman, and so is The Penguin. The fact that each of these characters cuts so close is what really fuels Batman in this film. He may not recognize or acknowledge what really scares him about this trio, but we can.

The creepiest moment in the whole thing is when Selina has just trashed Shreck’s department store, and she comes tumbling out to find Batman and The Penguin already exchanging threats. They’re alone, and they’re all three able to be honest about who and what they are. The moment is interrupted by the explosion of the store, but for just a moment, there is no one else in Gotham. We’re truly deep inside Batman’s warped head. Tim’s visuals in this film are extraordinary, and Bo Welch, his production designer deserves as much of the credit as Stefan Czapsky, his photographer. It’s appropriate that the film is set during the Christmas season, because it’s chilly, through and through.

These people are all broken, in pain, and acting out. The "normal" people are just as freaky in their own ways. There’s the shallow, vapid Ice Princess, the ineffectual Mayor, and even Alfred, frustrated and growing impatient with the nightly prowls of his employer. There is humor here, but it’s the kind that makes you uncomfortable even as you laugh. Burton must have read every single review for the original BATMAN, because he addresses some of the most common complaints about that film. One bit of dialogue in particular has Wayne taking shots at Alfred for letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, one of the first movie’s most unrepentantly stupid moves.

There’s little oddball touches, like Batman in the Batcave answering the phone with his mask still on (just how well does one hear through several inches of rubber, anyway?) or Bruce Wayne doing a scratch on the CD he uses to ruin The Penguin. They’re small, though, not like the massive punchlines of the first film. And there’s genuine pathos, too. The final moments between Selina/Catwoman and Batman/Bruce are agonizing. Each of them desperately wants and needs a human connection, but Selina manages to recognize that she’s too far gone to turn back. Rather than drag Bruce down with her, she seems to sacrifice herself, taking Shreck out for good.

The fact that Bruce pulls off his mask when he faces her shows him reaching out, trying to be "normal," trying for what he thinks everyone else has. The rejection destroys him, though, and sets the stage for a darker, even more troubled Batman that never surfaced, thanks to the guiding hand of Warner execs and the magic of Goldsman/Schumacher. It’s a shame... if Burton had kept at it, who knows where he would have taken the character? He proves conclusively with this film that he understands the complexity and psychological richness inherent to the character. It’s a shame we’ll never know how much further he could have gone.

[obiwan]

the problem was, back in the day, noone wanted an extremly dark bleak batman movie. they wanted kid friendly superhero flick, not deep, dark stuff. nowadays, look. EVERYONE wants a dark tormented superhero with wackjob sinister creepy lookin villians. burton was ahead of his time, in a way.

[El Payaso]

the problem was, back in the day, noone wanted an extremly dark bleak batman movie. they wanted kid friendly superhero flick, not deep, dark stuff. nowadays, look. EVERYONE wants a dark tormented superhero with wackjob sinister creepy lookin villians. burton was ahead of his time, in a way.

People like that never got the proper recognition. :up:

[The Sarge]

I wasn't allowed to watch Returns for years when I was a kid, (I was only 4 when it was released in theatres). I had seen 89 a bunch of times, and loved it, however my mom had decided that the sequel was too dark for me.
When Forever came out I asked my father if I could watch returns yet, and he just went "you haven't seen it?"
What a glorious moment my friends.

I've always wanted to see more Burton sequels. NEVER liked the Shumacher films.

[Finlandman]

I used to be in love with Burtons dualogy, but now I have found someone else...:word:

[union_jak]

You can love/appreciate both you know.

[mongoose-mania]

I love Batman Returns. It was the first Batman movie I ever saw. It was the movie that got me into Batman in the first place!
Everything about this movie is wonderful. Tim Burton's incredible direction, the costumes, Danny Elfman's haunting score, the impeccable casting, I love it all so much.
Danny DeVito's Penguin really stole the show. Tim Burton took him from being a short, pudgy man and made him something vile and really intimidating. And Pfeiffer's Catwoman was just so friggin' sexy! :cwink:
I love this movie. It will always have a very special place in my heart.

[Kevin Roegele]

I love Batman Returns. It was the first Batman movie I ever saw. It was the movie that got me into Batman in the first place!
Everything about this movie is wonderful. Tim Burton's incredible direction, the costumes, Danny Elfman's haunting score, the impeccable casting, I love it all so much.
Danny DeVito's Penguin really stole the show. Tim Burton took him from being a short, pudgy man and made him something vile and really intimidating. And Pfeiffer's Catwoman was just so friggin' sexy! :cwink:
I love this movie. It will always have a very special place in my heart.


:):up: I love you, man.

[Batman713]

Just finished watching it and I absolutely despised it. It was horrific. I couldn't stop nitpicking through all the cheesy dialogue and nonsense scenes.

[obiwan]

Just finished watching it and I absolutely despised it. It was horrific. I couldn't stop nitpicking through all the cheesy dialogue and nonsense scenes.



funny. i said the same thing after watching batman begins.

[-Arya-]

funny. i said the same thing after watching batman begins.
All of this is a matter of opinion. I personally loved Returns and 89. They along with BTAS were a big part of my childhood, and Ill love them for it however Nolans films showcase the Batman I have yearned for many, many years and Im so glad I finally got it!

Again just my opinion :woot:

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Batman '89, Batman Returns, and Batman: The Animated Series...they are all part of my childhood and have a special place in my heart.

Yes... Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are better movies...

But... Love and Nostalgia are powerful agents!!

[-Arya-]

Batman '89, Batman Returns, and Batman: The Animated Series...they are all part of my childhood and have a special place in my heart.

Yes... Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are better movies...

But... Love and Nostalgia are powerful agents!!

You must Learn to be more than a man in the mind of your oponent :woot:

Sry I had to do that!

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I love BR and I always will, its just the kinda film ya gotta love!

[union_jak]

Both The Dark Knight and Batman Returns have been selected as two of the top 500 greatest movies ever by Empire Magazine.

Unfortunately I missed the voting, but they are offering them as the covers for next month's issue.

I'm pleased Batman Returns is recognised like this, among so many decent movies, but then it deserves to be.

How can I not order this magazine!?

http://www.empireonline.com/500/large.asp?7

[MrWayne]

Can anyone post a pic from BATMAN RETURNS of bruce unmasked in his Bat suit?

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Both The Dark Knight and Batman Returns have been selected as two of the top 500 greatest movies ever by Empire Magazine.

Unfortunately I missed the voting, but they are offering them as the covers for next month's issue.

I'm pleased Batman Returns is recognised like this, among so many decent movies, but then it deserves to be.

How can I not order this magazine!?

http://www.empireonline.com/500/large.asp?7
that mag my friend, is truly badass!

[dlvillarreal]

That cover is awesome. I'd like to get it.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Can anyone post a pic from BATMAN RETURNS of bruce unmasked in his Bat suit?


Best I could do at the moment :yay:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/cap529.jpg

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Hmmm... I like the similarities for both these sequels posters!

http://www.impawards.com/1992/posters/batman_returns_ver8.jpg

http://eliburford.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dark-knight-posters.jpg

[MrWayne]

Best I could do at the moment :yay:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/cap529.jpg

Thanks for the effort... lol anyone else?

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Thanks for the effort... lol anyone else?


Hmmm... there's only so many shots of Batman unmasked you know - how about...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_015.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_010.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_019.jpg


Let's hope my effort did it this time...

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Hmmm... I like the similarities for both these sequels posters!

http://www.impawards.com/1992/posters/batman_returns_ver8.jpg

http://eliburford.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dark-knight-posters.jpg

The top one was done much much better than the bottom, and I like it better also!

[michael]

Just found this photo and thought I'd share...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/agent_005/BatmanReturns_502.jpg

[eledoremassis02]

Check out these shirts...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4774.jpg
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I also have these..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4778.jpg
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[eledoremassis02]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4849.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4826.jpg

[Spidey-Bat]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4835.jpg

What is that MOTP book?

Would it be possible for you to scan that cover? It's so awesome.

[eledoremassis02]

What is that MOTP book?

Would it be possible for you to scan that cover? It's so awesome.

It's the Mask of the Phantasm comic cover

I'll try to scan later

[Spidey-Bat]

Cool. I have the comic sequel to MOTP (called Shadow of the Phantasm). That had a great cover as well.

Thanks. No rush.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

god u guys have alotta memorabilia

[I Am The Knight]

I love memorabilia.

[BATS N' HORNETS]

How much acting inside the suit did he do in this movie? I heard that almost all the stunt work was not Keaton. Is that true?

[raleagh]

How much acting inside the suit did he do in this movie? I heard that almost all the stunt work was not Keaton. Is that true?

yeah.

[MrWayne]

Hmmm... there's only so many shots of Batman unmasked you know - how about...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_015.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_010.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/DVD_019.jpg


Let's hope my effort did it this time...

LOL it did.. THANKS!
I was trying to find one of him in the bat cave with his suit on mask off..
But again thank you...

[BATS N' HORNETS]

i love the film's darkness, although the campiness of some scenes (like the penguin's batmobile in his trailer) makes me roll my eyes

[MrWayne]

i think itd look funny if he forgot to take the black eye make up off when he ripped off his mask... lmao

[Cain]

i think itd look funny if he forgot to take the black eye make up off when he ripped off his mask... lmao

lol the racoon eyes would rock I was hoping top see them in TDK when Batman was in hong kong and about to put his helmet on but we got nothing :csad:

[the GRIN Reaper]

This movie is so polarizing. I constantly go back and forth in my mind about it. On one hand it's a decent movie. Then you realize how big of a failure it is compaired to the original. And how disappointing it makes you feel in comparison.

[Kevin Roegele]

i love the film's darkness, although the campiness of some scenes (like the penguin's batmobile in his trailer) makes me roll my eyes

That's not camp. It's simply supposd to be funny.

[The Joker]

This movie is so polarizing. I constantly go back and forth in my mind about it. On one hand it's a decent movie. Then you realize how big of a failure it is compaired to the original. And how disappointing it makes you feel in comparison.

Not for me.

I think it's an amazing movie, and vastly superior to Batman '89.

[union_jak]

This movie is so polarizing. I constantly go back and forth in my mind about it. On one hand it's a decent movie. Then you realize how big of a failure it is compaired to the original. And how disappointing it makes you feel in comparison.
Speak for yourself, I love this movie way more than Batman 89.

[I Am The Knight]

This movie is so polarizing. I constantly go back and forth in my mind about it. On one hand it's a decent movie. Then you realize how big of a failure it is compaired to the original. And how disappointing it makes you feel in comparison.

I strongly disagree.

[the GRIN Reaper]

I strongly disagree.
You disagree that I find it polarizing?

[the GRIN Reaper]

Speak for yourself, I love this movie way more than Batman 89.
I was speaking for myself. That's why the comments came from my SHH username.

[I Am The Knight]

You disagree that I find it polarizing?

OK, that came out wrong. "I don't find it polarizing at all, I think it's just as good or even better than B89" There, that better for you?

[the GRIN Reaper]

Not better for me, but better worded. Yes ... thanks.

[I Am The Knight]

No problem :o

[union_jak]

I was speaking for myself. That's why the comments came from my SHH username.
You worded it like it was a general consensus :huh:

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

blah blah blah lol you guys argue like husband and wife lol

[Sawyer]

Prior to Nolan's films, I think BR was probably the best of the films, dramatically speaking. The scene between Selina and Bruce during the party when they discover the other's secret identity was freaking great.

[the GRIN Reaper]

You worded it like it was a general consensus :huh:
Well even then it is pretty polarizing. People never feel in between about it. Either love it, or hate it. It didn't meet expectations at the box office by a long shot, and to alot of people doesn't come close to the quality that the B89 movie became. So yeah, I see alot of people split on the film. It's not in the most successful category for the Batman films in terms of amount of fan appreciation across the board. That means it's kind of polarizing.

[Ace of Knaves]

Batman Returns was brilliant IMO. While not completely accurate to the source material( i mean since when does Batman kill people, let alone seem to enjoy doing it) it was a really dark and disturbing Bat-film. Exactly how Bat-films should be. While the Penguin was radically changed I think it was necesary to make the character compelling and worthy of a serious threat to Gotham. Catwoman was perfect, even though her origin was a bit messed up, I found it suited the films dark tone perfectly. Michelle Phfifer was perfect as Selina and Catwoman. "Lifes a B!7ch, now so am I!!" classic line. And Penguin and Catwomans interaction was spot on. Penguin leering after her, Catwoman leading him on to a extent so she could get her own way. Who can forget the scene where she plucks Oswalds sweet little birdy from the cage and puts it in her mouth making orgasmic noises as he grabs her precious "Ms Kitty" and threatens to skewer it! Classic Bat-villain interaction if you ask me.

[union_jak]

It's been voted 401 out of 500 in that Empire thing.

Puts it above Batman, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, X2 and Iron Man.

http://www.empireonline.com/500/19.asp

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

That's pretty damn impressive :wow: !

[union_jak]

Well Empire, and many film critics, have always regarded the movie as one of the better comic book movies so I'm not surprised it was included in their list. On readers' vote it reached 401, but I guess they'd pick Begins or TDK as their Batmovie of choice these days.

[Ace of Knaves]

where did TDK come in that Empire poll?

[union_jak]

They've only revealed 500-401, and Batman Returns was the last one they revealed to date. More will be revealed soon.

[Charlie No-One]

I think the new Bat movies lost some of the style and comic book aspect that the Burton movies had. The new movies are great and all but something is just off about them. Batman seems out of place in his own movie to me.

[the GRIN Reaper]

The new Batman movies have a different style, not no style. And that style used fits Batman's mythos better in most cases.

[Charlie No-One]

I disagree.

[the GRIN Reaper]

I disagree.
The visual style of Nolan's two Batman films, are replicas of Batman Year One, and The Dark Knight looks like the contemporary Gotham City found in The Killing Joker, etc.

[Crook]

Killing Joke, you mean? I don't remember Gotham being prominently featured, if at all, in that book.

[the GRIN Reaper]

Killing Joke, you mean?
You know what I mean, LOL ...

I don't remember Gotham being prominently featured, if at all, in that book.
It wasn't prominently featured. But when it did the look of the city is very contemporary and realistic. Not full of Gothic structures, Neone lights, etc.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

gothic structures are part of most major cities in america, I can go into any city and find a building with gargoyles on it.

[the GRIN Reaper]

gothic structures are part of most major cities in america, I can go into any city and find a building with gargoyles on it.
No there isn't. There is some, but not to great extents. And there are Gothic architexture, but it doesn't equate to the ultra stylized version of Burton's Gotham City. That's the point I was making, and I don't understand what you're wanting to argue? The look of Gotham in BEGINS and TDK is similar to the Gotham in B:YO and The Killing Joke. Chicago has alot of Gothic architexture, but it isn't full of gargoyles. I'm saying a contemporary city can represent Gotham. Gotham isn't just represented by stylistic city scapes, with an abundance of Gothic architexture and gargoyles. I'm arguing that Nolan's Gotham certainly looks like different versions of Gotham seen in the comics. The poster I was arguing with said Nolan's Batman look was "off" and wasn't an accurate representation of what Gotham would or ever has looked like in the comics. Which is completely false.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Im not arguing with you I dont even care what your saying, Im saying that in america's architecture there are tons of gothic themes, TO EVERY CITY. Im not saying that its to the extent of Burtons films, I dont believe I stated that once.

[the GRIN Reaper]

I dont even care what your saying
Then why were you replying to me? And specifically refrencing what I was talking about?

LOL ...


Im saying that in america's architecture there are tons of gothic themes, TO EVERY CITY. Im not saying that its to the extent of Burtons films, I dont believe I stated that once.
Why? There was no point in mentioning any of this ... all I was explaining was that Nolan's visual interp of Batman's city is equivelent to quite a few ways its seen in Batman stories.

[snwboarder88]

I think the new Bat movies lost some of the style and comic book aspect that the Burton movies had. The new movies are great and all but something is just off about them. Batman seems out of place in his own movie to me.

Agreed, new batman films a great...

But Burtons have something really special to them, its a whole feeling you get from the entire movie.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

It's the look and feel of this image... that make's Burton's visual approach so great.

As much as I love Nolan, it IS something that his movie lack.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/returns3.jpg

[Crook]

I will have to agree. Burton's visual style just lends itself to a real grand iconography that defines the series.

Though I will note that Nolan did a superb job on Joker, which incidentally is very Burton-like in design. Ditto for Two-Face.

[batboy99]

^Agreed. I lvoed Burtons style, especially in BR. The snow, the music, the scenery..... beautiful. That is why BR is my favorite movie.

[theMan-Bat]

Batman Returns premiere - June 16, 1992 at Grauman's Chinese Theatre in Hollywood, California:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/650/01a123627995001a0000276.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8994/01a0000276885002.jpghttp://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8200/01a123628096001a0000276.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4049/01a0000276885001.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/523/01a0000276885005.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1935/01a0000276885006.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6729/01a123628174401a0000276.jpg

[theMan-Bat]

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6919/01a123628220901a0000276.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2007/01a0000276885014.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6227/01a0000276885012.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6369/01a0000276859004.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9121/01a0000276859012.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6218/01a0000276859014.jpg

[theMan-Bat]

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7149/01a0000276859011.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7875/01a0000276859013.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7402/01a0000276859003.jpg
Batman Returns costume designers Bob Ringwood and Mary Vogt.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9408/01a0000276859001.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/243/01a0000276859002.jpg

[theMan-Bat]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1608/01a0000276860001.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/677/01a123628833001a0000276.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/903/01a0000276860005.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3001/01a123628931501a0000276.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4784/01a0000276860012.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2144/01a123628980401a0000276.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2372/01a0000276860009.jpg

[theMan-Bat]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1206/0a1a002big.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9670/0a1a12362955090a1a1992c.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1158/0a1batmanreturns502.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2624/0a1a12363086090a1a51gvq.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2615/0a1aa6eb220dca09fee99a5.jpg

[The Joker]

Those pics ROCK!!! :up:

[snwboarder88]

nice pics...

really cool finds...were did you find all those?

[I Am The Knight]

It's the look and feel of this image... that make's Burton's visual approach so great.

As much as I love Nolan, it IS something that his movie lack.



Agreed. This is one of the things that bugs me the most about TDK in particular. I get what he was going for, but I'd like some more atmosphere.

[Two-Face]

Great pics :up:

[theMan-Bat]

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8621/0a1a23066lg.jpg

[theMan-Bat]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2421/0a1a12363753350a1a07673.gif
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9716/0a1a12363581030a1a82045.gif
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/470/0a1a076745529993.gif
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/198/0a1a076745529992.gif

[K.B.]

Awesome pics

[Rac]

I think it's an amazing movie, and vastly superior to Batman '89.
Seconded.

Batman Returns was brilliant IMO. While not completely accurate to the source material( i mean since when does Batman kill people, let alone seem to enjoy doing it) it was a really dark and disturbing Bat-film. Exactly how Bat-films should be. While the Penguin was radically changed I think it was necesary to make the character compelling and worthy of a serious threat to Gotham. Catwoman was perfect, even though her origin was a bit messed up, I found it suited the films dark tone perfectly. Michelle Phfifer was perfect as Selina and Catwoman. "Lifes a B!7ch, now so am I!!" classic line. And Penguin and Catwomans interaction was spot on. Penguin leering after her, Catwoman leading him on to a extent so she could get her own way. Who can forget the scene where she plucks Oswalds sweet little birdy from the cage and puts it in her mouth making orgasmic noises as he grabs her precious "Ms Kitty" and threatens to skewer it! Classic Bat-villain interaction if you ask me.
Seconded, as well. And about Batman killing, I know he isn't supposed to do it, but I just freaking loved it how Batman killed some of the Penguin's henchmen.

[eledoremassis02]

Some more merchandise

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4774.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4776.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4779.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4835.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4849.jpg

[K.B.]

I think 89 and Returns had the best merch of any Batman movie

[The Joker]

I still have that Sega Genesis game. I really love it. Still play it now and again. Can't beat the old school games.

[boog_spin]

yeh i remember being sick and my mom buying it for me when i was home from school...freakin awesome

[Homer J. Fong]

Ah, Batman Returns. This is pretty much the movie that defined Batman for me. I was born in May of '89, so I was obviously too young to be aware of the first movie, so for me this movie is among the most important cinematic experiences of my life. I don't think I saw it in the theater (I certainly hope not), but I remember having both Burton movies when they ran on HBO later - and having the trading cards, and Golden Book adaptation, and comic adaptation, and die-cast toys, and on and on, it was great.

The movie itself is still one I can go back to and never tire of and always find new things in (just watched it on Blu-ray on Friday, in fact). I'll just go through some of the elements that stand out the most to me:

-The relationship between Batman/Catwoman and Bruce/Selina is where the movie is at its most electrifying. As Burton said, with Keaton and then Pfeiffer, you've got four great eyes right there, and those two have that great talent of saying a ton with very little. My very favorite moments in the movie are: Bruce and Selina finding each other's scars, Catwoman straddling Batman on the rooftop (love Keaton licking his lips there), and discovering their true identities under the mistletoe ("Does this mean we have to start fighting?"). And the very last scene with Bruce just missing her in the alley and Catwoman showing herself as the Batsignal shines, the weight of everything that's gone on up to this point just sort of hits you, and it's a very understated but emotional moment.

-Danny Elfman's score is my second favorite film score to date (first is John Williams' Star Wars). I'm so sick of describing this movie or any parts of it as operatic, but it really is appropriate; almost the entire thing is set to music of some sort, and a lot of it flat-out eliminates need for dialogue! (Great example is the scene with The Penguin at his parents' graves.) It's haunting, it's cartoonish, it's exhilarating, it's great.

-Danny DeVito's Penguin. Like I said, this movie defined Batman for me, or at least a lot of his world, and this Penguin was my first exposure to the character, but that's not why I find him so compelling. To me, the heart of the character, the desire for more respect and a better life for himself no matter what he has to do to get it, is here, whether or not the character has flippers or not. DeVito makes a meal of the scenery alright, but he's very effective.

-The costume design. Michelle Pfeiffer, in that stitched, shiny black rubber suit? Thank you, Bob Ringwood & Mary Vogt.

-The German expressionistic (or pseudo-German expressionistic) approach. Only Tim Burton would even try to go this route, and I'm so glad he did.

-The big moment in Batman that says to me and probably most of us "That IS Batman" is the last shot, silhoutted on that rooftop, just waiting, as he always will be. The equivalent to that scene here is the one with the Batmobile roaring down the snowy streets with The Dark Knight on patrol ("I think he knows who his parents are. There's something else.")

So I'm probably just repeating a ton of stuff that's already been said; it's hard to find new things to say about a movie that's been talked about so much. But you know what, last summer I heard a lot of talk that The Dark Knight transcended the "comic book movie" to become real art. BR is pretty open to interpretation and has its enthusiastic lovers, its venomous haters, and some in between; to me, that is art.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

^^^

Oh My God... Bravo!!!

words... out of... my mouth!

[Jack O Lantern]

This Batman Returns game is for the Snes. I played and played that ****

[union_jak]

Ah, Batman Returns. This is pretty much the movie that defined Batman for me. I was born in May of '89, so I was obviously too young to be aware of the first movie, so for me this movie is among the most important cinematic experiences of my life. I don't think I saw it in the theater (I certainly hope not), but I remember having both Burton movies when they ran on HBO later - and having the trading cards, and Golden Book adaptation, and comic adaptation, and die-cast toys, and on and on, it was great.

The movie itself is still one I can go back to and never tire of and always find new things in (just watched it on Blu-ray on Friday, in fact). I'll just go through some of the elements that stand out the most to me:

-The relationship between Batman/Catwoman and Bruce/Selina is where the movie is at its most electrifying. As Burton said, with Keaton and then Pfeiffer, you've got four great eyes right there, and those two have that great talent of saying a ton with very little. My very favorite moments in the movie are: Bruce and Selina finding each other's scars, Catwoman straddling Batman on the rooftop (love Keaton licking his lips there), and discovering their true identities under the mistletoe ("Does this mean we have to start fighting?"). And the very last scene with Bruce just missing her in the alley and Catwoman showing herself as the Batsignal shines, the weight of everything that's gone on up to this point just sort of hits you, and it's a very understated but emotional moment.

-Danny Elfman's score is my second favorite film score to date (first is John Williams' Star Wars). I'm so sick of describing this movie or any parts of it as operatic, but it really is appropriate; almost the entire thing is set to music of some sort, and a lot of it flat-out eliminates need for dialogue! (Great example is the scene with The Penguin at his parents' graves.) It's haunting, it's cartoonish, it's exhilarating, it's great.

-Danny DeVito's Penguin. Like I said, this movie defined Batman for me, or at least a lot of his world, and this Penguin was my first exposure to the character, but that's not why I find him so compelling. To me, the heart of the character, the desire for more respect and a better life for himself no matter what he has to do to get it, is here, whether or not the character has flippers or not. DeVito makes a meal of the scenery alright, but he's very effective.

-The costume design. Michelle Pfeiffer, in that stitched, shiny black rubber suit? Thank you, Bob Ringwood & Mary Vogt.

-The German expressionistic (or pseudo-German expressionistic) approach. Only Tim Burton would even try to go this route, and I'm so glad he did.

-The big moment in Batman that says to me and probably most of us "That IS Batman" is the last shot, silhoutted on that rooftop, just waiting, as he always will be. The equivalent to that scene here is the one with the Batmobile roaring down the snowy streets with The Dark Knight on patrol ("I think he knows who his parents are. There's something else.")

So I'm probably just repeating a ton of stuff that's already been said; it's hard to find new things to say about a movie that's been talked about so much. But you know what, last summer I heard a lot of talk that The Dark Knight transcended the "comic book movie" to become real art. BR is pretty open to interpretation and has its enthusiastic lovers, its venomous haters, and some in between; to me, that is art.
Agree on all accounts :up:

[webhead731]

Batman and Batman Returns are the BEST Batman movies to me. I know everyone is all "omg teh drk nite!" but really, I love these much more. They feel like comic books, they feel dark and grim, but they're not plagued by all that realism BS. Joker is like the Joker. He's scary, threatening, and funny.
Penguin is one of the best sympathetic villains I know of. I felt for him. The character development in both films is interesting and done well.

Batman Returns is just underrated beyond belief.

[Ibn]

Batman and Batman Returns are the BEST Batman movies to me. I know everyone is all "omg teh drk nite!" but really, I love these much more. They feel like comic books, they feel dark and grim, but they're not plagued by all that realism BS. Joker is like the Joker. He's scary, threatening, and funny.
Penguin is one of the best sympathetic villains I know of. I felt for him. The character development in both films is interesting and done well.

Batman Returns is just underrated beyond belief.

:brucebat:

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Batman Returns is just underrated beyond belief.

I think what is great about Batman Returns is that it challenges people. It's not your typical movie and its certainly not your typical comic book movie.

Many will worship the DVD it is burned onto and others will claim it's nothing more than a spit in the face to the Batman legacy.

You either love it or hate it... and that makes it an interesting classic and legendary movie... for whatever the reasons.

[union_jak]

CFE has done a great review for this movie in his 100 Comic Book Movie Countdown.

[Sawyer]

I think 89 and Returns had the best merch of any Batman movie

And unfortunately, I was too young to remember any of it. :csad:

[Milu]

I was a little disappointed that Batman had its Diet Coke commerical on VHS just before the movie, but Returns didn't :( .

[Sawyer]

Some more merchandise

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4774.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4776.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4779.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4835.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4849.jpg

That's a helluva collection. I think I still have that Bruce Wayne figure.

[McGraw]

Changed this to my second favourite movie over '89 after another rewatch, Returns & '89 are like a yoyo on my favourite movies list.

[Doctor Jones]

Still have the VHS version of B89. Love that Diet Coke commercial. It even had a black cape.

"No, this black car will be rather late."

[batboy99]

I remember I used to have thosr wallstickers from BR :( I miss them...

[Panthro]

Some more merchandise

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4774.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4776.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4779.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4835.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/Collection/DSCF4849.jpg
I had at least one of those cups, used to play frisby with the lid, and the official BR comic book. I still have the SNES Nintendo Batman Returns & play it from time to time.

[TruerToTheCore]

Panthro

Clark Kent is the real person, Superman is the disguise. Get over it, Silver Age fans.

That's my old sig, bizarro-ized :wow:

Yet history, Siegel, the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages are on my side. :hehe:

[theMan-Bat]

That's my old sig, bizarro-ized :wow:

Yet history, Siegel, the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages are on my side. :hehe:

Both Daily Planet Clark and Superman are a bit of an act. The Clark Kent glasses are a disguise, Superman is another disguise in a way, he can't be completely honest with everyone around him. The Smallville Clark (I don't mean the TV show) is who he really is. The only time he can be completely honest is on the farm in Smallville. The "real" Clark is when he is at Smallville.

[TruerToTheCore]

this is NOT the Superman board :hehe:

[Panthro]

I actually just put Core boy on my ignore list. Just sayin'.

So, how about that Batman Returns? Gotta love Michelle Pfeiffer in leather.:grin: