The Official Batman Returns Thread

[TruerToTheCore]

I actually just put Core boy on my ignore list. Just sayin'.

So, how about that Batman Returns? Gotta love Michelle Pfeiffer in leather.:grin:

I am the most intelligent user here, and one of the most educated. :word::hehe:

[Travesty]

But you know what, last summer I heard a lot of talk that The Dark Knight transcended the "comic book movie" to become real art. BR is pretty open to interpretation and has its enthusiastic lovers, its venomous haters, and some in between; to me, that is art.
:applaud:bow::applaud

[aragen]

:woot: I just got a 1992 Horizon Model Kit of the Penguin from Batman Returns!
If I don't screw it up, I'll post pics when it's done.

[Chris Wallace]

I wanted to like it. I've even re-watched it, hoping my opinion would change. But I simply cannot get into this movie. The plot. The melodrama. The dialogue-I just can't take it. I hated it so much that for 3 years I allowed it to taint my perception of the character. Yet I've watched fanboys praise this film for well over a decade. Am I alone here?

[Wiseman]

I hated Batman Returns. I saw it in theaters just like I saw the first Batman and I walked out so upset. I think it's better then I used to think it was but I still wouldn't watch it unless there's nothing else on tv

[Cain]

There are plenty of people out there that hated Batman Returns. I was never one of them though.

[luke1234]

Yeah i always thought it was a mixed bag of reviews, I for one loved it but I can understand why other people didnt like it.

[Blackman]

I've always disliked it. I even think BF is better because at least I can laugh during it

[Chris Wallace]

I've always disliked it. I even think BF is better because at least I can laugh during it Same here.

[The Chris]

I don't hate it, but i don't like it as much as I used to and find it a little overrated (which is a shame because I hate that damn word) among bat circles.

[[A]]

I liked it. Didn't love it. Don't hate it either.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't like the Penguin. Never have. Not in any depiction. I didn't like what they did with Catwoman's origin. Batman came off incompetent to me & I hated Schreck. THen the dialogue. Lines like "Mistletoe can be deadly if you eat it." WHO THE **** WAS TALKING ABOUT EATING IT?!?!?!? It just didn't work for me at all.

[Blackman]

^^^^lol. I hate Burton's penguin too. I do believe that it would be pretty easy to bring Penguin to the big screen, it's just nobody has done it. Catwoman's origin was bogus, and Schreck was the stupidest villain

[Cain]

In contrast this is one of the few versions of The Penguin I could actually tolerate, the Catwoman and Batman dynamic I felt was spot on, I think it's one of the most interesting explorations of some of the main themes of the Batman mythos. Themes like duality, loneliness, tragedy, romance which gives it a very strong presence from Batman himself even through the secondary characters. I actually think Batman is more imposing and to the point than in the original here and to me still has the best overall romantic relationship of any superhero movie to date.

[Cain]

^^^^lol. I hate Burton's penguin too. I do believe that it would be pretty easy to bring Penguin to the big screen, it's just nobody has done it. Catwoman's origin was bogus, and Schreck was the stupidest villain


He doesn't like The Penguin, period and to be frank neither do I really.

[Travesty]

I've always disliked it. I even think BF is better because at least I can laugh during itHmmm? So do you happen to dislike TDK, then?

[Chris Wallace]

To be fair, TDK also provides laughs.

[Travesty]

To be fair, TDK also provides laughs.To be honest, I think Returns provides more then TDK.:cwink:

[TruerToTheCore]

I was never a big fan of the Burton movies. I don't like Keaton as Batman and I am not too fond of his character in these flicks. That said, my opinion towards Batman 89 has changed in the last few months. I confused too much things with Batman Returns, because Bruce Wayne is not as half as weird as he is the second movie. All those rocket penguins, zombie catwomen, let's run for mayor things... not my cup of tea. Although I will admit there is some depth to Batman Returns, and artistic quality. It was definitely a bold movie, perhaps the boldest comic book movie ever.

While I can get over the changes in Catwoman's character I could never forgive that the turned the gentleman villain Penguin into a sadistic creature. Afterall, I lived in a time when the Penguin was regarded as number 2 Batman villain, and not like a weak joke. I am a secret Penguin fan, I always liked him. (The did the same to the Joker in TDK, who was always a kind of dandy).

[The Joker]

Looooooove Batman Returns. Like it more than B'89.

[The Batman]

I was never a big fan of the Burton movies. I don't like Keaton as Batman and I am not too fond of his character in these flicks. That said, my opinion towards Batman 89 has changed in the last few months. I confused too much things with Batman Returns, because Bruce Wayne is not as half as weird as he is the second movie. All those rocket penguins, zombie catwomen, let's run for mayor things... not my cup of tea. Although I will admit there is some depth to Batman Returns, and artistic quality. It was definitely a bold movie, perhaps the boldest comic book movie ever.

While I can get over the changes in Catwoman's character I could never forgive that the turned the gentleman villain Penguin into a sadistic creature. Afterall, I lived in a time when the Penguin was regarded as number 2 Batman villain, and not like a weak joke. I am a secret Penguin fan, I always liked him. (The did the same to the Joker in TDK, who was always a kind of dandy).

was joker number one? I imagine theres a chance riddler wouldve been, due to frank gorshin

[Catman]

Batman Returns is a horrible movie on the surface but a brilliant one under it. Returns is possibly the most artistic movie in the superhero genre. Which is why some people hate it while others don't. Either you get it or you don't.

On the surface, the movie is about a bunch of weird-looking people messing with each other. Under the surface it's a movie about victims of crime and how they handled it differently and it shaped who they are.

Batman saw his parents murdered. So he became a superhero so others wouldn't go throught the same as him. Penguin got thrown into a river by his parents. So, he hates society. Catwoman was almost killed so she's angry and wants revenge. But, like Batman, she's willing to defend the innocent as it was shown with her saving that woman who was being mugged.

[Bathead]

You see, that's my problem. I really liked the movie, even though there were some elements I didn't care for, but,he thing is,(IMO) there are some fans who give it credit for more artistic depth than it deserves. I really don't believe it's all that deep. Again, IMO, it's all style and little substance, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. It was a fun (and in some parts, a little silly)Batman movie, nothing more, nothing less.

[TruerToTheCore]

was joker number one? I imagine theres a chance riddler wouldve been, due to frank gorshin

Joker was always number 1. Joker, Penguin, Catwoman - the classic foes till the 80s. The Riddler was usually a minor villain before the TV show and because of the change in the style of the Batman comics he didn't really have his big impact. The 70s also saw the rise of R'as Al'Ghul and Two-Face, much better fits for the Bronze Age. But the Riddler was still a big villain.

So... Joker was and is the number 1, the number 2 these days... probably R'as or Two-Face.

[The Joker]

I love old school Penguin. Always have. Making him a casino owner mob boss was such lazy writing. I can name a dozen stories where old school Penguin was written as a genuine threat and a real challenge for Batman.

[BatmanForNever]

I wanted to like it. I've even re-watched it, hoping my opinion would change. But I simply cannot get into this movie. The plot. The melodrama. The dialogue-I just can't take it. I hated it so much that for 3 years I allowed it to taint my perception of the character. Yet I've watched fanboys praise this film for well over a decade. Am I alone here?

I'm not going to agree or disagree. My friend swears that it's the best Batman film, I think it's the weakest. I love all Batman films (excluding Batman & Robin) I think it was too dark, too drawn out, and gave Tim Burton wayyy too much leash since he had a successful first film. They were like yea here you go bigger budget, bigger set, go crazy, do your thing. And the film suffered. The focus was too much on villains and not enough with Bruce/Batman. There were no real action/fight scenes even. In terms of rankings of the old films here's mine:


1.Batman Forever
2.Batman
3.Batman Returns

[Catman]

there are some fans who give it credit for more artistic depth than it deserves. I really don't believe it's all that deep.

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

That is really all there is to say about fan response to the movie...


I personally LOVE this movie and always have. I dunno, maybe it's because i'm just as big a Burton fan as a Batman fan... and that the worlds melded so perfectly.

I know why people hate it and it's fair enough... but it's one heck of a daring, powerful and artistic sequel in the superhero genre... and for that, it deserves credit alone!

Plus... Michelle Pfeiffer was amazing and spine-tingling good in the role of Catwoman. THE best actor to have ever played a Batman villain in a any medium...

Until Mr Ledger came along that is.

[david icke]

I loved it when i first saw it in the cinema, and enjoyed it for many years on vhs. But nowadays I cant really watch it at all, the penguin annoys me and is a main focus of the film, the fightscenes with Batman are a bit daft looking and weak. I really only like the Catwoman stuff. I think Walken was a little wasted too, shouldve saved him for a top tier rogues gallery villan.

[Bathead]

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

I "get it" just fine, I just don't agree that it's as deep as some seem to think. I find this attitude that I somehow don't "get it" just because of my opinion of the movie to be kind of arrogant and quite insulting.

[El Payaso]

You see, that's my problem. I really liked the movie, even though there were some elements I didn't care for, but,he thing is,(IMO) there are some fans who give it credit for more artistic depth than it deserves. I really don't believe it's all that deep. Again, IMO, it's all style and little substance, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. It was a fun (and in some parts, a little silly)Batman movie, nothing more, nothing less.

How is other people finding BR a deep movie a problem for you?

[DarthDaveBanner]

I know B89 is the better movie but personally I enjoy this one a lot more.

Burtons take on Catwoman and Penguin is possibly the greatest to this day. In fact up until Heath, De Vito's Penguin was my fave Bat movie villain ever.

[nathaniel]

I absolutely hated BR when it was released it was far to much a deviation from the original to me then.

I now rank it very very nearly the equal of B89 it has imo the best interpretation of batman to date in Keaton he is completely lost in the obsession of his mission by now, from the first shot of him brooding in Wayne Manor, to the part where he confronts penguin ("things change") he is amazing to watch NO ONE can paint a story with a few glances and manerisms like Keaton as Batman did imo.

Phiffer is amazing as catwoman period. Okay her "birth" is pure Burton fantasy but it works for his interpretation and Phiffers sultry scheming is a joy to watch the short scene with her and Penguin in the loft was poetry in motion.

[Ryan]

I don't usually go back and analyze films to see if I missed something or if something was better then it really was. I usually just go with my intial feeling of the movie from the first viewing. For me, hands down, Batman Begins was the best Batman movie and the one that I enjoyed the most. I never got into Keaton for whatever reason, although I really like him as an actor. I thought Batman 89 was ok but I felt like Batman Returns was a mess. At the time, I felt like the plot kept changing over and over again as if they didn't know where they wanted it to end or what direction it was going. Again, thats how I felt when I first saw it.
That being said, I still think Pfeiffer's Catwoman, origin story, presentation was one of or is the best told Batman rogue story on film to date. I think her protrayal and her look is timeless and would easily fit into any of the Nolan's films. I always thought there was room for improvement for the Joker, but I do have my doubts as to whether Nolan could do a better Catwoman.
The Penguin interpretation was ok. I just get a bit tired of Hollywood views where Catwoman must have "cat powers" and actually be like a cat as they did in the Halle Berry movie. Therefore a Penguin must actually look like an actual penguin etc. Not every character like Spiderman has to have the exact animalistic abilities of his/her namesake. If that was the case, I suppose Spiderman should have had spiderwebs coming out his arse if they went to keep it true to nature.

[BatmanForNever]

I liked the take on the Penguin...In the movie he appealed to me more rather than in the comics where he's a short, lame, gangster.

[Fenrir]

I wanted to like it. I've even re-watched it, hoping my opinion would change. But I simply cannot get into this movie. The plot. The melodrama. The dialogue-I just can't take it. I hated it so much that for 3 years I allowed it to taint my perception of the character. Yet I've watched fanboys praise this film for well over a decade. Am I alone here?

Agree 100%. It ranks just above B&R in the hierarchy of Batman films.

[Phaser]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish. It is both serious and tongue-in-cheek. It is one of the best comic book films of all time, yet in some regards, also the worst.

I think the one thing that almost kills the movie is Burton's macabre stylistic choices and the rather cheesy tone of a number scenes (again, too much Burton). Otherwise, judging it on the basis of screenplay alone it is damn near untouchable. If only the film had a more consistent feel throughout, didn't look like it completely took place on small soundstage and the producers hadn't let Burton completely loose like they did on B89, this would've been regarded as a landmark superhero movie even today. Still, I applaud it for its ambition to really push the genre envelope (even if it failed to do so). In fact, I think that The Dark Knight is sort of like Batman Returns done right. They both share so many little similarities, most prominent one being the tragic, bittersweet endings.

Nevertheless, I will always love this film because in my opinion, Burton's interpretation of the Penguin far surpasses its comic counterpart and actually turns into a threatening villain with a sort of mirror image of Batman. And Catwoman, though equally deviant from the source material, is also equally as good. Batman Returns is an immensely flawed classic, but a classic nonetheless.

[Chris Wallace]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish. It is both serious and tongue-in-cheek. It is one of the best comic book films of all time, yet in some regards, also the worst.

I think the one thing that almost kills the movie is Burton's macabre stylistic choices and the rather cheesy tone of a number scenes (again, too much Burton).

I think I agree with this. And again, my main problem was that Batman just seemed so damn inept. He walked into Penguin's trap, he let his guard down for Catwoman every time. He could've easily saved the Ice Princess-f*** up after f*** up after f*** up. And it's true-I felt a lot of the time like Burton just wouldn't get out of the movie's way.

[Blaztro]

To me, the movie is meh. While I hated the look and feel of the penguin, found that Burton used too much "potty humor", and disliked Batman's ineptitude, I found it enjoyable.

[Chris Wallace]

To me, the movie is meh. While I hated the look and feel of the penguin, found that Burton used too much "potty humor", and disliked Batman's ineptitude, I found it enjoyable.

So what were the things you did enjoy?

[theMan-Bat]

I think I agree with this. And again, my main problem was that Batman just seemed so damn inept. He walked into Penguin's trap, he let his guard down for Catwoman every time. He could've easily saved the Ice Princess-f*** up after f*** up after f*** up.

Even Batman makes mistakes. The classic Batman formula is that Batman fights the villain and loses and then in the end he wins. Do you really want to see a Batman movie where he's winning all the time? I hate Batman portrayed as mr. perfect, the worlds greatest everything. I love the less perfect Batman. Infinitely perfect is infinitely boring. If he doesn't have to struggle, and isn't ever at risk, there's no tension, and conflict isn't possible.

And it's true-I felt a lot of the time like Burton just wouldn't get out of the movie's way.

Tim Burton's macabre Gothic stylistic choices absolutely fits Batman and his city going back to the original comics. Bob Kane stated in his book Batman & Me, "The first year of Batman was heavily influenced by horror movies, and emulated a Dracula look." Neal Adams brought back the Gothic look of Gotham City in the 1970s with gargoyles on the buildings. And other artists followed.

[The Guard]

BATMAN RETURNS is a paradox, but so were the comics for years and years.

[Catman]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish.

That was the point. People need to remember that these movies were also for kids. So, you need those silly moments to entertain them. That was the mistake Batman Begins made. It bored kids. Which is why it didn't do better at the box office. People claimed at first that it was cause Batman & Robin was still a recent memory but it was cause kids had no desire to see it.

[Phaser]

That was the point. People need to remember that these movies were also for kids. So, you need those silly moments to entertain them.

And in doing so, it neglected both audiences. Children didn't like it because it was too gruesome in parts and the storyline was too mature while adults didn't like it because it was too silly and looked like a cartoon a lot of the time.

That was the mistake Batman Begins made. It bored kids. Which is why it didn't do better at the box office. People claimed at first that it was cause Batman & Robin was still a recent memory but it was cause kids had no desire to see it.

So how do you explain TDK, a far more serious, darker and adult film than BB, going on to gross a billion dollars worldwide? I mean, even if you bring up the excuse about Ledger's Joker (which is ridiculous), you have to contend with the fact that he was hardly a kid-friendly character.

[returntovoid]

edit

[Catman]

Children didn't like

Who said kids didn't like it? I was 10 when it came out and every kid loved it. Don't confuse kids with soccer moms. Plus, kids at the time were used to Tim Burton's style. Beetlejuice was a big hit at the time and even had a successful cartoon series. So, kids weren't turned off by the Burton style.

adults didn't like it

Again, I don't know where you're getting your info from. Don't confuse adults with fanboys. This was the summer's most successful movie. You don't become #1 by people hating your movie.

The ONLY people who hated this movie were fanboys and soccer moms. Everyone else enjoyed it.

So how do you explain TDK, a far more serious, darker and adult film than BB, going on to gross a billion dollars worldwide?

Dark Knight, while darker, was also more action-packed. The movie literally began with a bank robbery and then followed that up with Batman in a garage fighting the Scarecrow. Begins, on the other hand, began with a fight scene where nobody could see what was going on.

[theMan-Bat]

I disliked Batman Return but the only thing I liked about it was the Gothic look of Gotham City and Danny Elfman's score. The problem I had with the portrayal of Penguin and Catwoman was that Tim Burton took two of the sanest Batman villains and turned them into total psychopaths, I mean, if He wanted two psychopathic villains, then there are other psychopathic villains to choose from like The Riddler, Two-Face, Scarecrow, Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter or even bring back The Joker.

Penguin and Catwoman are not two of the sanest Batman villains.
Here Batman says Catwoman needs a psychiatrist. She is showing symptoms of Bipolar Disorder. Rapid violent mood swings. This is from Batman #355 (1983).
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2369/0a1a1245111718batman355.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2852/0a1a1245111557batman355.jpg
And the original version of Penguin was a cold-blooded murderer with what was described as a "fertile--but twisted--brain." The text described him as a "grotesque creature of ill-omen." Penguin's hellish childhood in the comic books is that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella even in the summers by his mentally disturbed mother because of his biological father dying of pneumonia. Possibly, the boy never really knew him. And Oswald was bullied for always carrying an umbrella and because of his grotesque appearance. A person with this childhood would have lasting psychological issues, especially considering he grew up to become a cold-blooded murderer using umbrella's to kill. As with the Batman Returns origin, he was an outcast, rejected by society.

[The Joker]

Penguin sane?

He's been in Arkham several times.

[Phaser]

Who said kids didn't like it? I was 10 when it came out and every kid loved it. Don't confuse kids with soccer moms. Plus, kids at the time were used to Tim Burton's style. Beetlejuice was a big hit at the time and even had a successful cartoon series. So, kids weren't turned off by the Burton style.

Let's see now - coming off of the biggest hit of 1989, Batman Returns managed a record opening weekend with a...35% less overall gross and shorter run by two months compared to its predecessor. It wasn't a complete failure, but it wasn't a complete success either. And Beetlejuice was a tongue-in-cheek

Again, I don't know where you're getting your info from. Don't confuse adults with fanboys. This was the summer's most successful movie. You don't become #1 by people hating your movie. The ONLY people who hated this movie were fanboys and soccer moms. Everyone else enjoyed it.

Then why was WB compelled to completely change the direction of the franchise after BR? Surely soccer moms neither had the political or legal backing to enforce such a change. WB did so because they saw BR for it what it was - a commercial disappointment. No studio wants to see a sequel on which they spent twice as much money only to get 35% less in return. If people thought BR was anywhere as good as B89, then they would've seen it just as many times. But they didn't. Hence the lower box office.

Of course, I hold BR as being slightly superior to B89, but facts are facts.

Dark Knight, while darker, was also more action-packed. The movie literally began with a bank robbery and then followed that up with Batman in a garage fighting the Scarecrow. Begins, on the other hand, began with a fight scene where nobody could see what was going on.

It still doesn't help your argument that a film needs to have silly moments like BR to attract the kids. And so we revert back to my original point - like TDK, BR didn't need to have those cheesy, silly moments to attract the kids. And there is a clear difference between the box-office of BB and BR. BR smashed opening weekend records, indicative of high interest in the film, yet it topped out at 18 weeks. In stark contrast, BB's opening weekend was the 9th highest opening film of 2005 only indicating little interest in the film, yet it good word of mouth helped it stay for more than 20 weeks in theaters ending with one of the strongest runs of the year. In short, people weren't turned off by the 'boring' content of BB like you say, many simply didn't bother to watch the film in cinemas to begin with.

[returntovoid]

edit

[Catman]

Surely soccer moms neither had the political or legal backing to enforce such a change.

Yeah, but they have a thing called MONEY. You see...kids don't have any money. So...whose gonna buy the toys? Seriously, dude, look at the first Ninja Turtles movie and then look at the second. What happened there? Soccer moms! So, this is not the first time it had happened.

It still doesn't help your argument that a film needs to have silly moments

TDK had silly moments within its action scenes. Or do I need to remind you of those two little kids pretending to shoot at cars and then seeing an explosion and Batman drive by? Who do you think that scene was for?

[El Payaso]

I think I agree with this. And again, my main problem was that Batman just seemed so damn inept. He walked into Penguin's trap, he let his guard down for Catwoman every time. He could've easily saved the Ice Princess-f*** up after f*** up after f*** up. And it's true-I felt a lot of the time like Burton just wouldn't get out of the movie's way.

Mh, Batman has been fallible many times, included in TDK. Joker owned him even when Batman was sure he was owning Joker.

If the hero can't fail then we have a 20 minutes movie where he just goes and gets the villian. But writers and people prefer conflict.

[Phaser]

Yeah, but they have a thing called MONEY. You see...kids don't have any money. So...whose gonna buy the toys? Seriously, dude, look at the first Ninja Turtles movie and then look at the second. What happened there? Soccer moms! So, this is not the first time it had happened.

Your position is one contradiction after another. Apparently soccer moms were troubled with their children seeing BR's gruesome moments, but had no problems whatsoever taking their kids to see a homicidal maniac that carves smiles in people's faces, blows them up every other second (including a hospital, of all places), hangs a copycat of the film's main character from a building after a torture scene very reminiscent of execution videos...oh, oh, and let's not forget, a madman with half his face charred to the bone threatening to kill a helpless woman with her two terrified children and then holding a gun against a weeping, whimpering boy's head in the film's climactic scene. Yes, no child would find those scenes disturbing at all. Yet these very soccer moms took their kids to see the film...all after every single review from critics warning parents that TDK is not a kid-friendly movie. :rolleyes:

TDK had silly moments within its action scenes. Or do I need to remind you of those two little kids pretending to shoot at cars and then seeing an explosion and Batman drive by? Who do you think that scene was for?

A plausible light-hearted moment or a simple one-liner joke does not equal the bizarreness of watching the Penguin eat raw fish, bite a man's nose, bleeding blue goo, Catwoman swallowing a living bird and so much more...the silly scenes in BR are not the ones that are funny, but the ones like these that are too campy for adults and too grotesque for kids.

[El Payaso]

Your position is one contradiction after another. Apparently soccer moms were troubled with their children seeing BR's gruesome moments, but had no problems whatsoever taking their kids to see a homicidal maniac that carves smiles in people's faces, blows them up every other second (including a hospital, of all places), hangs a copycat of the film's main character from a building after a torture scene very reminiscent of execution videos...oh, oh, and let's not forget, a madman with half his face charred to the bone threatening to kill a helpless woman with her two terrified children and then holding a gun against a weeping, whimpering boy's head in the film's climactic scene. Yes, no child would find those scenes disturbing at all. Yet these very soccer moms took their kids to see the film...all after every single review from critics warning parents that TDK is not a kid-friendly movie. :rolleyes:

Well, it would seem like people's sensitivities change in a lapse of 16 years. In fact 1992's teenagers could be today's soccer mums. :)

And well, as you said, every critics warned people abouit the nature of TDK. One of the problems of BR was that it was marketed as a kid-friendly movie (get your bat-happy meal kids) when it was not.

[Phaser]

Well, it would seem like people's sensitivities change in a lapse of 16 years. In fact 1992's teenagers could be today's soccer mums. :)

And well, as you said, every critics warned people about the nature of TDK. One of the problems of BR was that it was marketed as a kid-friendly movie (get your bat-happy meal kids) when it was not.

Well, according to Catman, thanks to the number of silly scenes in BR made specifically for kids, it wasn't a very adult-friendly movie either. :yellow:

I think it is best we all accept that the silly scenes in Batman Returns had nothing to do with making the film for kids and were Burton's own little quirks. The writing and most of the content of the actual film itself makes it inescapably clear that it was never intended for kids. Heck, if it weren't for the occasional silliness and macabre, it would've been the darkest and most mature comic book movie even today.

[The Guard]

Please...stop generalizing.

BATMAN RETURNS wasn't as hated as people like to pretend. There was a small amount of letters that WB Received, and it was palpable that the movie was a bit grotesque and weird. But I recall kids loving it at the time. I also recall the toys selling like hotcakes.

The Penguin was always a bit crazy. And Pre-Crisis Catwoman was always pretty nutso.

BATMAN RETURNS has cheese and silliness not just because of Burton (though that's certainly part of it), but for the same reason that BATMAN had some. The comics did.

And RETURNS made money, therefore it was a financial success. Who cares if it made quite as much as BATMAN?

[Ace of Knaves]

I love Batman returns. Love the look, love the score, love the characters(even the minor ones like Chip, in a love to hate way), love the fact that Penguin wasn't a lame ass gangster with delusions of grandeur, love the fact that Catwoman was really quite disturbed.

And I mean, that first scene of Bruce Wayne brooding in the darkness as the Bat signal comes on...that is just ****ing insanely brilliant. THAT'S Batman/Bruce for me. Brooding in the dark on his own, until he is called to dispense his own brand of justice on his city.

[Phaser]

Please...stop generalizing.

BATMAN RETURNS wasn't as hated as people like to pretend.

"It wasn't a complete failure, but it wasn't a complete success either."

"...a commercial disappointment."

How is that generalizing?

BATMAN RETURNS has cheese and silliness not just because of Burton (though that's certainly part of it), but for the same reason that BATMAN had some. The comics did.

Yes, because we all know Burton incorporated all that silliness and camp because he was trying so hard to make his films faithful to the comics. :whatever:

It's a good thing he didn't, because The Penguin was a far more interesting and superior character in BR than what he was in the comics. And the Catwoman from the comics wouldn't have worked half as well in the context of the film as the shattered and contemptuous victim hell bent on revenge.

I think it is high time for people to stop using fidelity to the comics as an excuse all the time for poor filmmaking decisions. The comics aren't exactly a mine full of undiscovered gems. In fact, a significant percentage of it is utter trash. So saying that Burton was trying to stay true to the source material (a lot of which wasn't very good in the first place) with the silliness is hardly a compelling argument in his favor.

[The Guard]

How is that generalizing?

I'm talking about the perceived parent/children reaction to the film. This whole "Kids hated BR" thing.

I probably should have said "People, please, stop generalizing", etc, but I'm feeling lazy today.

Yes, because we all know Burton incorporated all that silliness and camp because he was trying so hard to make his films faithful to the comics.

No, clearly it's an element he liked well enough, because he used it. Burton and his writers were clearly interested in bringing some of the elements from the comics to their films. There's silliness in the film. Some of it's just Burton weirdness, sure, but much of it is the kind of thing that's been seen in the comics for years. Puns, melodrama, soap opera plots, etc.

I think it is high time for people to stop using fidelity to the comics as an excuse all the time for poor filmmaking decisions.

I didn't realize I used it in a defensive capacity. I could have sworn I just made a statement about why such elements are in the movie.

I think it's time for people to stop generalizing everything that's not ultra serious and dark in a Batman movie as "silliness" and "campy" and "poor", especially when these elements have been a part of Batman's lore for decades. Even current Batman comics and movies still use some of these elements, albeit more sparingly.

The comics aren't exactly a mine full of undiscovered gems. In fact, a significant percentage of it is utter trash. So saying that Burton was trying to stay true to the source material (a lot of which wasn't very good in the first place) with the silliness is hardly a compelling argument in his favor.

I didn't say it was all good. I said it's clear why that stuff was in the movie. There's an inherent weirdness, even a silliness to Batman. There always has been, and probably always should be, in some sense. Burton and his writers were cognizant of that.

And good lord...it was 1992. Do you all remember 1992?

I mean...1992?

[Catman]

Apparently soccer moms were troubled with their children seeing BR's gruesome moments, but had no problems whatsoever taking their kids to see a homicidal maniac

You act as if 1992 was the other day. 1992 was 17 years ago. Times change. Remember when parents hated the Beatles because they had LONG HAIR! Times change. People change. And people also learn from the past. We live in the Internet era. Parents can research things beforehand and determine whether the movie is approriate for their children. Plus, the studio marketed the movie differently.


I think it is best we all accept that the silly scenes in Batman Returns had nothing to do with making the film for kids and were Burton's own little quirks.

Have you seen Nightmare Before Christmas? You're telling me that's NOT a kids movie? Obviously Burton has his own way of entertaining children. Which, of course, some parents find disturbing.


And RETURNS made money, therefore it was a financial success. Who cares if it made quite as much as BATMAN?

Look at it this way, has a sequel to Superman Returns been greenlit yet? No. Yet, Batman Forever was greenlit right away! So, obviously WB was happy enough to greenlit a sequel right away.

[returntovoid]

Love the look, love the score

Yeah, I thought the score and atmosphere were awesome.

love the fact that Penguin wasn't a lame ass gangster with delusions of grandeur

Penguins portrayal was good but I never found the Gangster version lame, maybe because I like Mafia films.

love the fact that Catwoman was really quite disturbed.

I disliked the disturbed psychopathic portrayal.

And I mean, that first scene of Bruce Wayne brooding in the darkness as the Bat signal comes on...that is just ****ing insanely brilliant. THAT'S Batman/Bruce for me. Brooding in the dark on his own, until he is called to dispense his own brand of justice on his city.

As much as I disliked the film. I got to admit, that scene was brilliant. Very Batman like moment. :woot:

[returntovoid]

Here Batman says Catwoman needs a psychiatrist. She is showing symptoms of Bipolar Disorder. Rapid violent mood swings. This is from Batman #355 (1983).
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2369/0a1a1245111718batman355.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2852/0a1a1245111557batman355.jpg


There is more explanation and humanity in that panel that I think Batman Returns lacked. One thing I never understood about Batman Returns was that, why did she want revenge against Batman??? And what other comics have shown these symptoms of Bipolar???

[theMan-Bat]

There is more explanation and humanity in that panel that I think Batman Returns lacked.

There is touching humanity like that in Batman Returns, for me it's particularly the scene when Batman revealed himself to her, opening up. Every time I watch that scene I'm struck by how sincerely moving it is. He is really looking for love and acceptance from her. Yet, tragically, she is for Batman a love object beyond the pale, however much she fascinates him. It is as a costumed villainess that Catwoman captures Batman's attention and holds his interest. The excitement and exhilaration of the relationship lie largely in the chase.

One thing I never understood about Batman Returns was that, why did she want revenge against Batman???

Because Batman napalmed her arm and hit her and knocked her off a building.

And what other comics have shown these symptoms of Bipolar???

Catwoman had shown violent mood swings in many of her appearances in the Batman comics, particularly the early ones. She had a love-hate relationship with Batman.

[returntovoid]

There is touching humanity like that in Batman Returns, for me it's particularly the scene when Batman revealed himself to her, opening up.

Still, I never noticed that humanity in the scene you're talking about but I'll have to analyze it since I have not seen Batman Returns in a long time.

Because Batman napalmed her arm and hit her and knocked her off a building.

That kind of makes sense. People with disorders tend to find it difficult to forgive the mistakes that others make.

Catwoman had shown violent mood swings in many of her appearances in the Batman comics, particularly the early ones.

I guess Tim Burton used that characteristic from those comics you're talking about. Characterization do keep changing in the comics, Batman went from dark to light, light to campy, campy to dark.

[Fenrir]

EDIT: Double Post

[Fenrir]

Because Batman napalmed her arm and hit her and knocked her off a building.

That was napalm?! :wow:

[Phaser]

I'm talking about the perceived parent/children reaction to the film. This whole "Kids hated BR" thing.

Care to explain why then BR made only about half as much money as its predecessor then?

No, clearly it's an element he liked well enough, because he used it. Burton and his writers were clearly interested in bringing some of the elements from the comics to their films. There's silliness in the film. Some of it's just Burton weirdness, sure, but much of it is the kind of thing that's been seen in the comics for years. Puns, melodrama, soap opera plots, etc.

I never said Batman Returns was criticized for its puns or melodrama. I'm talking about the fact that Batman Returns feeling like the bastard child of Beetlejuice and the original B89. Its tone was just all over the place. One minute it is dark and serious, and in a blink of an eye becomes outlandish, ridiculous and childish. Sure, there were comics at the time that were inherently silly, but there were also enough comics that were consistent in their serious and sober tone. And it is these mature stories like Year One, The Dark Knight, The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum that were responsible for revitalizing the character's mainstream popularity at the time, not campy drivel from the pre-crisis and Adam West era that Batman is so often ridiculed for. Sure, people may have loved it at the time for what it was - hilarious and entertaining, but the darker classic iterations of the character were what made the people to take the character seriously as a legitimately engaging superhero. So even if you make the argument that Burton picked the silliness from the comics, it doesn't make him look any better because it seems he picked from the bottom of the litter. It's okay to have a few lighthearted moments or a few tongue-in-cheek one liners in a predominantly serious film to lighten the mood (like B89) but it's a whole different thing for a film to come off just as juvenile as it is mature.

I think it's time for people to stop generalizing everything that's not ultra serious and dark in a Batman movie as "silliness" and "campy" and "poor", especially when these elements have been a part of Batman's lore for decades. Even current Batman comics and movies still use some of these elements, albeit more sparingly.

That's exactly it. No one's begrudging a little humor and silliness with anything Batman related. At it's core, he is after all a comic book character. Do not make the foolish assumption that anyone who dreads the excess of campy and silliness of Batman stories completely hates anything and everything even slightly cheesy altogether. Just because someone likes Batman does not mean they have to love everything associated with the character throughout its history. If I or anyone else happens to completely despise the Adam West Batman, it doesn't make one any less of a fan. It simply means they like one iteration of the character over the other. Besides, Batman was originally a darker character, was he not?

I didn't say it was all good. I said it's clear why that stuff was in the movie. There's an inherent weirdness, even a silliness to Batman. There always has been, and probably always should be, in some sense. Burton and his writers were cognizant of that.

Perhaps too cognizant, because there was simply too much of it than what was necessary.

[returntovoid]

Besides, Batman was originally a darker character, was he not?

Exactly!!!! The creators Bill Finger and Bob Kane intended the character to be dark originally.

[The Guard]

Care to explain why then BR made only about half as much money as its predecessor then?

I suspect that BATMAN made more money than BATMAN RETURNS because more people saw BATMAN than saw BATMAN RETURNS. Simple enough, really.

Frankly, I don't care why it didn't make as much money as BATMAN. I only care about the idea that has been out there that a majority of children hated the movie. I see, and saw, as a child who watched BATMAN RETURNS, no evidence of that.

I think BATMAN was a curiousity. It became a fad, even more than something like THE DARK KNIGHT did, which has been one of the most high profile and successful films of all time. BATMAN made a ridiculous, ridiculous amount of money for a character that, while known to many people in 1989, was not all that beloved. You have to remember...there was no animated series back then. Most people of Batman through the Adam West series, and only knew of that sparingly. And most kids had seen Superfriends at some point, and there was a small percentage of the population who were die hard comic book fans...and that's really about it. It wasn't like today, where BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT came into a public conscousness that has seen more serious approaches to the character, four major Batman films, something like four or five animated series, and countless toylines, videogames, etc.

I never said Batman Returns was criticized for its puns or melodrama. I'm talking about the fact that Batman Returns feeling like the bastard child of Beetlejuice and the original B89.

I see where you're going with that...but I don't think it was quite THAT weird. BATMAN had a lot of weird elements, too. It just had The Joker's brand of weirdness VS The Penguin's.

Its tone was just all over the place. One minute it is dark and serious, and in a blink of an eye becomes outlandish, ridiculous and childish.

Again, though, a majority of comic books, even the ones that were considered serious approaches, had this element in the late eighties and early 1990's as well. If your issue is that the tone of the movie is uneven...then yeah, the tone of the movie is sort of uneven. It's clearly intentional on the part of the filmmakers, not some horrible failure to keep a dramatic film in a consistent tone. When the film needed to maintain a consistent tone, it did.

Sure, there were comics at the time that were inherently silly, but there were also enough comics that were consistent in their serious and sober tone. And it is these mature stories like Year One, The Dark Knight, The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum that were responsible for revitalizing the character's mainstream popularity at the time, not campy drivel from the pre-crisis and Adam West era that Batman is so often ridiculed for.

And it's all well and good to want those comics to be the comics the movies are/were based on...but that's just not the way it was. Nor is that the way it is. Even THE DARK KNIGHT only took a few basic elements from any of these, as did BATMAN BEGINS.

YEAR ONE, THE DARK KNIGHT, ARKHAM ASYLUM and THE KILLING JOKE are certainly great stories...but they're also not the norm in comics. In general, even after those projects came out, even after their influence started to be felt in the mainstream titles, comic books were still pretty damn silly. They alternated a bit more between serious and silly, but the only period I can think of where they were mostly serious came long, long after BATMAN RETURNS was written.

Now don't get me wrong. I honor the elements of the Batman mythology, but I love dark, serious, explorative Batman stories. I'd rather see that brought to life on film. But I'm cognizant that there was a time when the rest of the world didn't feel this way. Some people still don't.

Sure, people may have loved it at the time for what it was - hilarious and entertaining, but the darker classic iterations of the character were what made the people to take the character seriously as a legitimately engaging superhero.

In a sense. Those classics you mentioned didn't exactly cause the general public to clamor for an uber serious third Batman movie (FOREVER was a blockbuster despite it's silliness). I don't think there were too many people looking for engagement who came out of BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS not being engaged with Bruce Wayne/Batman himself on some level.

The issue isn't really Batman, who was the straight man in it all, and was appropriately dark in both BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS. The issue was the villains. The Penguin was ridiculous. And he was ridiculous because he'd always been ridiculous. Batman's rogues, for a long, long time, were mostly zany, ridiculous psychopaths. The Joker was ridiculous in BATMAN, and it worked. Penguin was then ridiculous in RETURNS, and it...sort of worked. Catwoman wasn't too ridiculous comparatively speaking, so I don't consider her much of an issue with RETURNS.

So even if you make the argument that Burton picked the silliness from the comics, it doesn't make him look any better because it seems he picked from the bottom of the litter. It's okay to have a few lighthearted moments or a few tongue-in-cheek one liners in a predominantly serious film to lighten the mood (like B89) but it's a whole different thing for a film to come off just as juvenile as it is mature.

I don't feel RETURNS came off as entirely juvenile, save for a few short sequences, many of which were in character, and had a darker undertone to the juvenile antics. I would debate that heartily.

Do not make the foolish assumption that anyone who dreads the excess of campy and silliness of Batman stories completely hates anything and everything even slightly cheesy altogether.

I don't recall doing so.

Just because someone likes Batman does not mean they have to love everything associated with the character throughout its history. If I or anyone else happens to completely despise the Adam West Batman, it doesn't make one any less of a fan. It simply means they like one iteration of the character over the other. Besides, Batman was originally a darker character, was he not?

Yes, but again...unless you just weren't around in 1992, you will remember the nature of the comics of the era, and of movies in general.

Batman wasn't the uber-dark, serious comic book character he became later on.

Perhaps too cognizant, because there was simply too much of it than what was necessary.

I guess that depends. I thought most of the zaniness and the various weird element fit the characters quite well as they were written, if not in comparison to an entirely serious adaption of their comic book counterparts. I guess I'd need specific examples of what you think was "too much".

[theMan-Bat]

That was napalm?! :wow:

Yes, it was. The little blue chemical was napalm. A small amount. It left that permanent scar on her arm that she didn't want Bruce to see when they were kissing on their date at Wayne Manor, not knowing he's Batman yet and that it was him that gave her that scar. An unusual relationship.

[theMan-Bat]

Care to explain why then BR made only about half as much money as its predecessor then?

Tim Burton explained that in Starlog #180 (1992). "The reality is that Batman was a success because Batman was a cultural phenomena, which had less to do with the movie than with something else." It was a Bat-mania trend in the late 1980s that was happening before the movie, which was a combination of the 1960s nostalgia in the late '80s and Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore/Brian Bolland's Batman: The Killing Joke crossing over into the mainstream. People were wearing clothes with the Batman logo, earings of the batsymbol and some teenage guys even shaved the back of their high top hairstyle into the Batman logo. Were these people true Batman fans? Most of them were not, they were just following the current trend. By 1992, Bat-mania was dead. '80s glam and excess was over. The '90s jaded grunge trend with a too cool to care attitude was in. Trends are idiotic. Don't follow like sheep. Be yourself, people.

And other than the fact that the '80s Bat-mania was over, Batman Returns wasn't as big of a hit because considered too artsy, dark and depressing and Gothic and gloomy and gross and ugly by mainstream audiences, but I love it. Batman Forever was a bigger hit than Batman Returns because it was considered funny and fun and colorful and sexy escapism by mainstream audiences, but I've never liked it. And Batman & Robin flopped because it was considered too campy and ridiculous, which it is. Batman Begins was a hit because it's very much a mainstream action movie with plenty of fistfights, swordfights, shootings, car chases and crashes. Liam Nelson helped it appeal to the Star Wars fans. Casting leading actors Michael Caine and Gary Oldman and Morgan Freeman as Alfred and Gordon and Fox certainly helped it appeal to mainstream audiences, and giving Morgan Freeman a role like Q in the James Bond films presenting all the gadgets appealed to Bond fans. The Dark Knight was a hit because it is also very much a mainstream action film with lots of shootings, car chases and lots of explosions. Heath Ledger was a teen heartthrob and brought that element to his Joker making it a teen icon. The make up and long hair similar to Brandon Lee's The Crow helped it appeal to teens. The fact that Heath Ledger died before it was released, like Brandon Lee with The Crow, certainly added extra fascination to the film. People were even connecting Heath Ledger's death to The Dark Knight.

[jaymes_e06]

One of my favorite movies of all time. This is by far better than BB and just as good as TDK IMO.

[Charlie No-One]

In my eyes, this was the best Batman film.

[Cain]

Happy 17th birthday Batman Returns. Can't believe it's been that long since I saw this on opening weekend.

[jaymes_e06]

In my eyes, this was the best Batman film.
I know right? It got something right no other Batman movie got right a good actress that had good chemistry with Bruce and Batman and was super sexy! That alone puts it on top. Let alone it had the best action of all the movies to date.

[Charlie No-One]

Plus it just feels the most Batman to me. The newer films may be great, but I feel as though they don't grasp the style of the comics.

[jaymes_e06]

Exactly! I think this movie is so underrated it's annoying.

[The Joker]

I've always loved Batman Returns. Definitely one of my favs.

[BatmanForNever]

On a side note I just did get Michelle's autograph on the sexiest bed scene from the movie.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

Some may not like the direction the character went... but for commitment to the character, script, Burton and the film as a whole... DeVito was outstanding!!!

Did DeVito really give a bad performance??

[DarthDaveBanner]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

Some may not like the direction the character went... but for commitment to the character, script, Burton and the film as a whole... DeVito was outstanding!!!

Did DeVito really give a bad performance??

No way. Up until TDK he gave my favourite bat-villain performance.

[BatmanForNever]

I thought DeVito did a great job, he played the Penguin extremely well, and being in that suit all the time filming, the damn deserves an award. He is always the most gracious Batman actor and is always very generous to us fans, and seems like a great guy.

[returntovoid]

I have a question about Batman Returns.

Was Catwoman actually supernatural in Batman Returns or not???

It would be much appreciated if someone would elaborate an answer to it.

[The Joker]

It's pretty obvious she was supernatural. She could survive being shot repeatedly, falling off buildings etc. She had nine lives.

Catwoman to Shreck: "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me"

[El Payaso]

IMO it was very ambiguous. If you want to believe she was, then you have enough to fill that perspective. But people saturated of adrenaline have endured gun shots.

It's pretty obvious she was supernatural. She could survive being shot repeatedly, falling off buildings etc. She had nine lives.

I see your point, but many characters in the Burton's bat-films survived things nobody in real life could have.

Catwoman to Shreck: "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me"

Oh never believe what a character says about himself.

[Fresh Prince]

This movie was the third best in the bat franchise....Better then BB.

[Cain]

I never took it literally at all as well. Burton's main influences on these movies were german expressionism and film noir both sub-genres of cinema that excel at delivering ambiguous and vague moments that are left to the audience's imagination to interpret. Interactive cinema if you will. Had the awnings not been there to break her fall I'd say it was clear cut that there is a supernatural element at bay.

However since they were deliberately placed in the scene where she falls it can never really be called. Then the fact that her "deaths" are also ambiguous and have reasonable explanations for not actually being "deaths" leaves it all up to the individual viewer to determine what he/she thinks of Catwoman in BR.

There is no right or wrong answer at all nothing is clear cut and this is what I appreciate most. To some she's a crazy zombie ***** to me she's just another traumatized victim lashing out without a care because of the fractured psyche caused by her traumatic experience like the other rogues in Burton's Batman universe.

[Cain]

This movie was the third best in the bat franchise....Better then BB.

I agree, I consider it one of the boldest and most creatively ambitious blockbusters of all time as well. Possibly the most expensive "art film" ever made.

[The Joker]

I see your point, but many characters in the Burton's bat-films survived things nobody in real life could have.

True, but they hammered it home to us that Catwoman could survive repeated instances like this, and even had her say so herself to various characters that she can survive death nine times.

She seemed to embody alot of characteristics of a cat. Like when she comes home after being revived by the cats, she starts gulping down a carton of milk. She gives herself "a bath" like a cat does at the Penguin's place etc.

I really hope she washed that cat suit after falling into the truck full of kitty litter :cwink:

Oh never believe what a character says about himself.

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers? :oldrazz:

[mothy]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

no way. that razzie nomination was a total disgrace. in terms of descending into the character, he was as good as ledger in my book.

[Travesty]

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers? :oldrazz:
She probably had a Kevlar under her suit.:oldrazz:

[El Payaso]

True, but they hammered it home to us that Catwoman could survive repeated instances like this, and even had her say so herself to various characters that she can survive death nine times.

She seemed to embody alot of characteristics of a cat. Like when she comes home after being revived by the cats, she starts gulping down a carton of milk. She gives herself "a bath" like a cat does at the Penguin's place etc.

I really hope she washed that cat suit after falling into the truck full of kitty litter :cwink:

Haha.

Well, look; Burton gave us all the signals of her being a human cat. That doesn't mean that she is. Batman has survived as many accidents as Catwoman but since he's dressed as a bat, nobody makes the human-cat associationj like they do with Catwoman. Burton gives us the signals and we read them as we want to. Of course his idea is that Catwoman should be perceived as a human cat. But in spiote of his evident message, she could just be a crazy woman in a world where people don't die from falling (well, not even Nolan's bat-universe is like that too much).

Bottom line; it's all up to interpretation and thus I don't think the idea of the movie is to be conclusive in either way.

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers? :oldrazz:

Well, according to her she was "Saved by kitty litter." So how could have Batman killed her if she was saved?

But usually the characters in a movie or play are never honest about themselves unless they're in a monologue or something like that.

[The Joker]

Haha.

Well, look; Burton gave us all the signals of her being a human cat. That doesn't mean that she is. Batman has survived as many accidents as Catwoman but since he's dressed as a bat, nobody makes the human-cat associationj like they do with Catwoman. Burton gives us the signals and we read them as we want to. Of course his idea is that Catwoman should be perceived as a human cat. But in spiote of his evident message, she could just be a crazy woman in a world where people don't die from falling (well, not even Nolan's bat-universe is like that too much).

Again true, but Batman wears armour and stuff, and he was not revived from death by a bunch of bats. Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

Batman also doesn't behave like he is a bat like hang upside down from his batcave or anything like that. Catwoman displayed several cat like traits as I mentioned above.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Bottom line; it's all up to interpretation and thus I don't think the idea of the movie is to be conclusive in either way.

That's fair enough, but I think the evidence for her being supernatural is pretty darn heavy compared to the idea that's she's just insane. Not I don't think she didn't have a screw loose, because she did.

I love that crazy hysterical laugh she gives Bruce at the party when they're dancing, and she shows him the gun she's carrying to kill Schreck with.

Well, according to her she was "Saved by kitty litter." So how could have Batman killed her if she was saved?

I think when she said saved, she meant she wasn't splattered on the concrete street. Instead she got a more cushioned place to land.

But it could be interpreted that the fall into the truck might not have been fatal to a normal person.

But usually the characters in a movie or play are never honest about themselves unless they're in a monologue or something like that.

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.

I mean if that doesn't prove she's got nine lives, then I don't know what else could. We even saw her alive at the end, after surviving the electrical inferno in Penguin's lair.

[TruerToTheCore]

You forgot to mention that Selina Kyle suddenly became a crazy martial artist, too. Bitten by radioactive cats . :cwink:

[Fresh Prince]

I agree, I consider it one of the boldest and most creatively ambitious blockbusters of all time as well. Possibly the most expensive "art film" ever made.

Agreed.

[El Payaso]

Again true, but Batman wears armour and stuff, and he was not revived from death by a bunch of bats. Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

Was she actually dead (so the cats "brought her back")?

That's up for interpretation.

Yes, the scene is made so you can visually see a corpse being revived but that's not necessarily what happened.

"Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back"? I can say they were just looking for food and they smelt the blood.

It's not like the only possible reason for the cats doing that is to bring a person back from the death since it's something cats naturally do.

Batman also doesn't behave like he is a bat like hang upside down from his batcave or anything like that.

He actually does. When Vicky wakes up in the middle of the night, remember?

Catwoman displayed several cat like traits as I mentioned above.

Yes, she's insane; she believes in the cat within her. It's like a crazy man acting like Napoleon. It's not like he's actually Napoleon.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Absolutely. That is part of what i'd call suspension of disbelief. But then again we don't know if she was trained as a martial artist previous to her "accident." Nothing says otherwise.

That's fair enough, but I think the evidence for her being supernatural is pretty darn heavy compared to the idea that's she's just insane. Not I don't think she didn't have a screw loose, because she did.

I love that crazy hysterical laugh she gives Bruce at the party when they're dancing, and she shows him the gun she's carrying to kill Schreck with.

Fantastic scene actually.

As you say, there's evidence in both ways; that's why I say ity's up for interpretation. You feel that the supernatural angle is more fleshed than the realistic angle. Fantastic, so you can interpret the story that way in a perfectly valid way. My point is that it's not conclusive and I think that was Burton's idea.

I think when she said saved, she meant she wasn't splattered on the concrete street. Instead she got a more cushioned place to land.

Exactly. Her life was 'saved.' So when she says that "Batman killed her" she's refering to what she thinks Batman intended to so, not a fact. Same for Penguin and Schreck.

But it could be interpreted that the fall into the truck might not have been fatal to a normal person.

The magic word.

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.

I mean if that doesn't prove she's got nine lives, then I don't know what else could. We even saw her alive at the end, after surviving the electrical inferno in Penguin's lair.

Well, if we get strict, cats do not have nine lives, so if they transferred her their 'powers' that wouldn't be one of them - again, - strictly speaking. You can throw cats away trying to kill them and they will survive; that's what happenes with them and that's what happens with Selina. Now, as I said, there are - I seem to remember - cases of people who in extreme cases are helped by adrenaline and can bear gun shots. But if you look carefully, even if Selina doesn't fall, her legs and body look weaker as she is being shot.

And yes, I agree with you; the last surviving with the electrical schock is there to make you wonder what really happen. That is a real evidence. It was put there by Burton after the shooting was over but it's still there.

[The Joker]

Was she actually dead (so the cats "brought her back")?

That's up for interpretation.

Yes, the scene is made so you can visually see a corpse being revived but that's not necessarily what happened.

She was pale white, no breath was seen coming from her mouth in the cold, like it was just when she hit the ground etc.

What do you think happened to her?

It's not like the only possible reason for the cats doing that is to bring a person back from the death since it's something cats naturally do.

Never said that's why the cats were doing it. I'm saying that's what happened, whether the cats meant to revive her, or just wanted to eat her corpse.

The fact that a gang of cats followed her back to her apartment also suggests she's got some kind of connection to them that goes beyond her being fond of cats :cwink:

It was so darn eerie the way the were swarming into her apartment when she was trashing it, and hanging around her windows etc.

He actually does. When Vicky wakes up in the middle of the night, remember?

I think that was to show his obsession with his persona. Bruce Wayne never sleeps at night. That's when he operates. He sleeps during the day. Saw that in Begins, too. "Bats are nocturnal".

It's not that he thinks he's an actual bat.

Yes, she's insane; she believes in the cat within her. It's like a crazy man acting like Napoleon. It's not like he's actually Napoleon.

But a guy who acts like Napoleon doesn't walk off being tossed from buildings, and being shot four times at close range :cwink:

Absolutely. That is part of what i'd call suspension of disbelief. But then again we don't know if she was trained as a martial artist previous to her "accident." Nothing says otherwise.

Yes, it does. Her utter terror and helplessness when the Circus Gang attacks, and even gets taken hostage. She was the typical terrified damsel in distress.

A trained martial artist would have kicked that clown's ass.

Fantastic scene actually.

As you say, there's evidence in both ways; that's why I say ity's up for interpretation. You feel that the supernatural angle is more fleshed than the realistic angle. Fantastic, so you can interpret the story that way in a perfectly valid way. My point is that it's not conclusive and I think that was Burton's idea.

I would agree with that, if the final scene where she gets shot FOUR times at close range, but just keeps on walking like it was nothing convinces me otherwise.

It could be argued that a normal person could survive the attacks she got from Batman and the Penguin, but not four shots like she got off Shreck. No way.

Exactly. Her life was 'saved.' So when she says that "Batman killed her" she's refering to what she thinks Batman intended to so, not a fact. Same for Penguin and Schreck.

If that was the case, then she wouldn't have said "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me. That's three lives down. You got enough in there to finish me off?".

Attempted kills don't take three lives. They "killed" her.

Well, if we get strict, cats do not have nine lives, so if they transferred her their 'powers' that wouldn't be one of them - again, - strictly speaking.

If you want to get strict, you don't survive being tossed out of a window like Selina did without so much as a broken leg, or spine, much less be revived by cats with nothing more to show than a cut on your forehead.

But we're not being strict because this was utter fantasy. And in this fantasy story, Selina inherited nine lives from the cats who revived her. That's why she survived the attacks she endured all through the movie.

Now, as I said, there are - I seem to remember - cases of people who in extreme cases are helped by adrenaline and can bear gun shots. But if you look carefully, even if Selina doesn't fall, her legs and body look weaker as she is being shot.

Man, even if I believed that, she would have eventually died from bleeding to death, or one of those four shots would have struck some kind of major organ.

The fact is that the bullets did not stop her in any way. After the first two shots, she says "Four, five......still alive" and does a huge crack of her whip.

That's not adrenaline. That's supernatural ability. I mean one gunshot from Shreck put Batman on the floor for several minutes, and he was wearing ARMOUR.

[El Payaso]

Before multi-quoting you into heartbreaking nitpickness and trollity, I'll say you make very good points. I say it's up to interpretation but as you put it, there's everything to think it was a supernatural cat-human being right there.

[Rodrigo90]

Catwoman wasnt killed. She landed in kitty litter and bushes,lol.

[Two-Face]

But she was shown looking at Batsignal at the end which meant she was gonna appear in the 3rd movie if Burton directed.

[Young Superman]

Batman Returns is the BEST Bat film IMO, plus it also has the best Batsuit out of all the live action Bat films IMO.

[Two-Face]

Best bat film? Nah.

[Rodrigo90]

Returns if my mothers fav. But I consider it a testing ground for Burtons imaginative skills.

[The Joker]

I thought Beetlejuice did that.

Before multi-quoting you into heartbreaking nitpickness and trollity, I'll say you make very good points. I say it's up to interpretation but as you put it, there's everything to think it was a supernatural cat-human being right there.

Thank you, Payaso. Always a pleasure.

[Happy Jack]

Best bat film? Nah.
It's a Batman film in a loose sense honestly. The characters are just too different from their comic counterparts to be considered faithful adaptations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I think in some cases elements of the characters were improved. But at the end of the day it's a Tim Burton creation.

[returntovoid]

To those who think that Batman Returns is not faithful to the comics in any way.

Check this link out, it's an analysis between the comics and Batman Returns.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

[Cain]

To those who think that Batman Returns is not faithful to the comics in any way.

Check this link out, it's an analysis between the comics and Batman Returns.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58


I agree with this but I already see the counterpoints coming a mile away like

"Tim Burton doesn't like comic books it's just a coincidence"

as if every single Batman movie to date doesn't have moments that coincide with the comics in them or not. So what if they weren't purposeful they still exist. I'd also argue that the tone of the Gotham City that Doug Moench and Kelley Jones brought us is in the early to mid 90's is all over that movie. This is why I cannot understand all the people who bash one Batman movie in favor of the one they enjoy most.

At the end of the day they all pull from the character's 70 year history throughout all media. They also speak to different sets of fans that are part of the same family so why the bashing amongst each other still I say. It's time people learned to get over that and realize all these films are a testament and great tribute to how diverse the caped crusader actually is :woot:

The franchise playing out as it has has had an eerie purpose of completely matching the evolution of Batman as a character in comic books. So the good things are still gonna come for quite some time.

[X-Woman]

I found this only a so-so movie. One of the things that I didn't like about it was that I couldn't tell who the villains were. Well OK, I should say I know the villains are Penguin and Catwoman. But the way they're handled in the movie I'm not sure if the word Villain or Victim is the better way to describe them.

Both characters get origin stories in the movie. Neither story is necessary and they only slow down the action. But the real trouble is that both of the characters are shown as being victimized in some way, which is what led to their becoming villains. Selina Kyle gets crap from Max Shrek, and is thrown out a window. Oswold Cobblepot is a deformed child. Both of them suffer at the hands of others, and so become villains.

I find this approach unbelievably sappy. I don't want a villain who was victimized. I want a villain who is a villain because they enjoy being villainous. I want a villain who is bad not because they were treated badly, but because they have fun being bad.

Otherwise, I don't know if I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people or what. Should Batman bring these law-breakers to justice? Or should he give them a big bear hug and tell them everything will be all right?

I could not deal with the drippiness of this movie. I don't want a victim Catwoman. I want someone who is baaaaad to the boooone. And the Penguin should be full of diabolical wickedness, not feelings of inadequacy.

I like the signature that Happy Jack is using.....

Two Players,
Two Sides.
One is Light...
One is Dark.

That's what it is. That's what comic books are about. It's about characters who have an obvious delineation in terms of values. We know who the good guys are. And who the bad guys are. But in Batman Returns it's not clear. It's too ambiguous. We don't know who is dark and who is light. We don't know what dark and light even mean any more.

I walked out out the movie theater having no idea what I had just watched.

:xmen:

[The Joker]

Many of Batman's villains were victimized in some way in the comics. Scarecrow was bullied, Ivy was experimented on by Dr Woodrue, Mr Freeze lost his wife, Man Bat can't control the beast inside him, Two Face was scarred by the mob etc.

It doesn't make them any less a villain. Just because they had a harsh background or were mistreated in some way doesn't justify the evil they do. The Penguin trying to drown new born babies, and then trying to blow up all of Gotham City, are the most evil acts any villain tried to pull in the Batman movies, IMO.

[X-Woman]

Actually, yeah, you have a good point. But I think that what bothered me was that too much time and emphasis was put on the sad origins of these characters. Also, having not one but two sad origin stories really made things drag on for me. There was just too much focus on the victimization. And for me personally, I find watching villainy to be more fun than watching victimization. Just my 2 cents.

:xmen:

[returntovoid]

I agree with this but I already see the counterpoints coming a mile away like

"Tim Burton doesn't like comic books it's just a coincidence"

as if every single Batman movie to date doesn't have moments that coincide with the comics in them or not. So what if they weren't purposeful they still exist. I'd also argue that the tone of the Gotham City that Doug Moench and Kelley Jones brought us is in the early to mid 90's is all over that movie. This is why I cannot understand all the people who bash one Batman movie in favor of the one they enjoy most.

At the end of the day they all pull from the character's 70 year history throughout all media. They also speak to different sets of fans that are part of the same family so why the bashing amongst each other still I say. It's time people learned to get over that and realize all these films are a testament and great tribute to how diverse the caped crusader actually is :woot:

The franchise playing out as it has has had an eerie purpose of completely matching the evolution of Batman as a character in comic books. So the good things are still gonna come for quite some time.

Well said! :up:

The whole Nolanite Vs. Burtonite thing is downright juvenile/stupid because both Nolan and Burton films are equally as valid to the comics books.

[union_jak]

Actually, yeah, you have a good point. But I think that what bothered me was that too much time and emphasis was put on the sad origins of these characters. Also, having not one but two sad origin stories really made things drag on for me. There was just too much focus on the victimization. And for me personally, I find watching villainy to be more fun than watching victimization. Just my 2 cents.

:xmen:
Is anyone ever actually born evil? This may be too deep for discussion, especially here on the Hype, but people aren't inheritantly evil, or wake up and decide to inflict misery on others. History is full of evil people, but they would have had their reasons, motivations and past clashes that push them towards whatever crimes they did.

We saw what made The Penguin want to drown infants in toxic waste, and why Catwoman blew up department stores; this was the evolution of the movie. Without seeing the key moments that 'created' these characters the audience would be forced to simply accept that they are bad. Besides, some would say that Max Shrek was the most evil as he wasn't a victim; his motivation was power and control (even quite literally when he was actually building a power station).

[El Payaso]

Well in all Spiderman movies we have kind-hearted people submitted to a scietific experiment that turns them evil. They all had sad stories behind.

I don't think the world is divided between white-good and black-evil.

[El Payaso]

Is anyone ever actually born evil? This may be too deep for discussion, especially here on the Hype, but people aren't inheritantly evil, or wake up and decide to inflict misery on others. History is full of evil people, but they would have had their reasons, motivations and past clashes that push them towards whatever crimes they did.

Ironically enough, Batman returns showed that Penguin was born inherintly evil. He was days old when he killed a cat for fun.

We saw what made The Penguin want to drown infants in toxic waste, and why Catwoman blew up department stores; this was the evolution of the movie. Without seeing the key moments that 'created' these characters the audience would be forced to simply accept that they are bad. Besides, some would say that Max Shrek was the most evil as he wasn't a victim; his motivation was power and control (even quite literally when he was actually building a power station).

What makes the movie rich is that at the end you have that sad Penguin's death that makes you (ok at least me) feel bad about him and his life. And then again minutes before he was ready to kill a lot of children. Not any director and/or actor can achieve that.

[X-Woman]

Is anyone ever actually born evil?

I think evil is a strong word, but I do think that people are born with predispositions for all different kinds of personality traits. That's what makes everyone unique. There's a lot of people who go through bad and abusive experiences, but only some of them decide that they want to inflict harm on society. The rest of them join support groups.

:xmen:

[Happy Jack]

What makes the movie rich is that at the end you have that sad Penguin's death that makes you (ok at least me) feel bad about him and his life. And then again minutes before he was ready to kill a lot of children. Not any director and/or actor can achieve that.
That is quite a feat, but it is an illusion. Penguin made the choice to do what he did, and if he had actually succeeded all sympathy for him would be lost. I think he might be one of the most pathetic villains ever because not only does he have a tragic backstory, is treated as a monster, and dies without redemption, he fails at literally everything he sets out to do. For all his rage and malice it's hard not to feel a little sorry for him based on that, but again, he chose to be the monster.

[El Payaso]

^ According to the movie he was born a monster. Before learning to speak he was killing cats for fun.

[theMan-Bat]

Batman Returns is the BEST Bat film IMO, plus it also has the best Batsuit out of all the live action Bat films IMO.

I agree.

[returntovoid]

People tend to say The Penguin in Batman Returns is not accurate to the comic books, just based on aesthetic, black mucus spitting.

But both Batman Returns and comic book origins had the same psychological effects on The Penguin

Batman Returns Origin:

the Penguin is born disfigured and his wealthy parents throw him into Gotham's sewers. The child survives, floating down Gotham's sewers and under the city zoo, where he is taken in by a group of penguins and later joins a circus freak show. Comic Book Origin:

the Penguin was bullied as a child for his short stature, obesity, and beak-like nose. Several stories relate that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella by his over-protective mother, due to his father dying of pneumonia after being drenched in a downpour. He is an outcast in his rich, high society family; their rejection drives him to become a criminal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_%28comics%29

[The Joker]

That's right. Penguin has always been a tortured mind who was rejected by society. Burton just upped the ante, and made him a full on freak, who is alot more bitter and twisted, and wants to punish society alot more than just rob them blind.

The only thing that was missing was an explanation as to why Penguin had an affinity for umbrellas. But it's a very minor complaint. The umbrella weapons in Returns were so badass. Especially the Umbrella-Copter.

[Two-Face]

Sorry but I prefer comic book origin.

[returntovoid]

I might also add, that the look of The Penguin was used in the early episodes of BTAS that ran from 1992-1995.

The Penguins exaggerated freakish looks were there and his eyes had black circles just like Batman Returns.

Sorry but I prefer comic book origin.

It's OK if you prefer the comic book origin because it has an explanation for the umbrella obsession unlike the Batman Returns origin.

[Travesty]

The only thing that was missing was an explanation as to why Penguin had an affinity for umbrellas. But it's a very minor complaint. The umbrella weapons in Returns were so badass. Especially the Umbrella-Copter.
:up:

[Happy Jack]

I might also add, that the look of The Penguin was used in the early episodes of BTAS that ran from 1992-1995.

From what I understand that was due to TAS premiering close to when Batman Returns was released. The WB wanted the show to have a connection to the film.

[The Joker]

From what I understand that was due to TAS premiering close to when Batman Returns was released. The WB wanted the show to have a connection to the film.

Yep. Joker was even referred to as Jack Napier in one episode. And Selina Kyle was blonde like Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Two-Face]

Well it's no secret BTAS producers wanted to do a show based on Tim Burton's Batman movies.

[Rodrigo90]

I did a bit of digging a while ago. During an interview about Returns,Burton revealed that his ideas came from Arkham Asylum. Penguins grotesque appearance spawned from the characters in it, especially Clayfaces grotesque look. Their symbolic meanings was used for Catwoman. Burton actually spoke with Grant Morrison about his ideas. Ill try and find it again.

[returntovoid]

^I'd like to see a pic of The Penguin in Arkham Asylum.

I found out that there was a grotesque version of The Penguin in Dark Victory, also.

[The Joker]

^I'd like to see a pic of The Penguin in Arkham Asylum.

They did that in the comics, too:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/PenguininArkham1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/PenguininArkham2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/PenguininArkham3.jpg

[returntovoid]

They did that in the comics, too:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/PenguininArkham1.jpg




What exact comic book, is that from???

By the way, in my previous post, I was asking about The Penguin in Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum graphic novel.

[The Joker]

What exact comic book, is that from???

Detective Comics #628.

By the way, in my previous post, I was asking about The Penguin in Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum graphic novel.

I know. I'm just pointing out that Penguin being in Arkham is not as rare as alot of Bat fans sometimes think. He's one of the few Batman villains who's done time in Arkham as well as regular prison.

It's good to see Morrison acknowledge it, too. Penguin is very underrated in the last decade.

[Rodrigo90]

I found the interview piece from Burton.

Q. Did any of the comics help you in anyway for Returns?

TB. Yes, actually. I was really impressed with the graphic novel, Arkham Asylum A Serious House on Serious Earth. I personaly called the writer,Grant Morrison and we talked over the phone. He actually gave me some tips on The Penguins appearance,cause this was before production started and I was the one who had to come up with Penguins visual look. I told Grant my ideas and he was impressed,but those ideas couldnt have been created from my mind,if I didnt read that novel. It really appealed to me,the entire concept of itl just blew my mind and I wanted to use that concept in the movie.".

[Two-Face]

EDit

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Well it's no secret BTAS producers wanted to do a show based on Tim Burton's Batman movies.

Um... wrong.

The only thing the producers used the Tim Burton movies for was as the basis for the argument that it was better to go darker with Batman for success, even in children's animation.

The visuals of The Penguin and Catwoman were merely a studio mandate... In fact, Bruce Timm was not that big a fan of the Batman Returns script in general.

Bruce Timm:

it's utter nonsense -- wild fan speculation granted bogus "legitimacy" by being posted on wikipedia....irritating!.....never in a million years would we have considered using max schreck in B:TAS....we had the opportunity to read the BATMAN RETURNS script while the movie was in production, and i for one HATED the script, did everything in my power to distance us from the movie continuity...(i confess i kinda liked the movie itself when it came out, but still)...


http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=3342616#post3342616

Regardless... however the producers feel about Burton's movies, they certainly did not want to BASE the animated series around them.

[Two-Face]

Yes but the show was based on Burton's take........ hence the draker tone...........

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Well yes... the only gift the Burton movies gave Bruce Timm et al was the opportunity to go darker... thanks to the success of Batman (1989).

[Happy Jack]

Other than a few characters and the 40's/art deco feel, TAS doesn't have a whole lot in common with either Burton films. You could say that the darker tone was in place because of them, but that wasn't really inspired by the Burton films.

[El Payaso]

They had the Burton/Elfman theme, a quite similar Batmobile and the deformed Penguin with long hair in that particular duck-mobile shipping the sewers was obviously based on Burton's take. Also the blonde Catwoman and the Joker being gangster Jack Napier.I'm not saying they based TAS on Burton only, but too many burtonian elements were there.

[returntovoid]

I was just looking clips for fight scenes from Tim Burton's Batman films on YouTube to compare with the Nolan films.

But all I could find was this clip from Batman Returns that includes fights scenes and I got to say, these fight scenes are superior.

rgcmKI8RvOw

[The Joker]

Are you deliberately trying to start a Nolan vs Burton arguement in here?

[returntovoid]

Are you deliberately trying to start a Nolan vs Burton arguement in here?

No, I'm not. :doh: Just sharing my opinion. :cool:

[The Joker]

Uh huh, you come in and make a random post comparing Nolan's and Burton's movies to eachother.

Ugh. Moving on.

Anyone else love that Returns was set at Christmas time? I love the snow effect on Gotham City. It makes for some beautiful imagery. Especially in the scenes on the snowy rooftops of Gotham. And at Penguin's Zoo lair.

[returntovoid]

Anyone else love that Returns was set at Christmas time? I love the snow effect on Gotham City. It makes for some beautiful imagery. Especially in the scenes on the snowy rooftops of Gotham. And at Penguin's Zoo lair.

Yeah, I thought the snow looked visually cool.

[Fresh Prince]

They should do a mini BTAS like how they gonna do next year with Batman Beyond...But it could be a TDKR feel as Bruce Wayne is in his 50s and back fighting crime in Gotham City as Batman...Have that 1980s crime noir and atmosphere though.

[mothy]

Anyone else love that Returns was set at Christmas time? I love the snow effect on Gotham City. It makes for some beautiful imagery. Especially in the scenes on the snowy rooftops of Gotham. And at Penguin's Zoo lair.
i love the winter setting. (i'm a winter person) it's a key reason why i love batman returns. it's burton through and through. and as you say, it provides beautiful imagery.

[union_jak]

Ironically enough, Batman returns showed that Penguin was born inherintly evil. He was days old when he killed a cat for fun.

Oh whoops, I forgot about that.
That's right. Penguin has always been a tortured mind who was rejected by society. Burton just upped the ante, and made him a full on freak, who is alot more bitter and twisted, and wants to punish society alot more than just rob them blind.

The only thing that was missing was an explanation as to why Penguin had an affinity for umbrellas. But it's a very minor complaint. The umbrella weapons in Returns were so badass. Especially the Umbrella-Copter.
Surely if you lived in a damp sewer where water constantly dripped on you, you'd want an umbrella too!? :oldrazz:

[Two-Face]

They should do a mini BTAS like how they gonna do next year with Batman Beyond...But it could be a TDKR feel as Bruce Wayne is in his 50s and back fighting crime in Gotham City as Batman...Have that 1980s crime noir and atmosphere though.

That would be a TDKR movie.

[The Joker]

Surely if you lived in a damp sewer where water constantly dripped on you, you'd want an umbrella too!? :oldrazz:

:hehe:

Touche salesman :awesome:

[manhattanl]

I loved this film, mainly for what they did with the villains in capturing what they and most of the Rogues Gallery is about. Outcasts who fight back against the status quo. The Penguin being the “freak” who seeks revenge on those considered “above” him and Catwoman, the abused who just won’t take it anymore. Love them.

[Bat Attack]

Okay, so I was watching Batman Returns the other night and something struck me. When Max Shreck goes to see the Penguin right before he reveals the Campaign office he says "Your extended family...could have a family". What does he mean by that?

[Two-Face]

Maybe he means Penguin's circus freaks can raise their families in Gotham, I don't know.

[Bat Attack]

Maybe he means Penguin's circus freaks can raise their families in Gotham, I don't know.

:csad:

[Travesty]

Okay, so I was watching Batman Returns the other night and something struck me. When Max Shreck goes to see the Penguin right before he reveals the Campaign office he says "Your extended family...could have a family". What does he mean by that?I'm not to sure, as I haven't watched the movie in awhile, but is that when he's talking about reclaiming Penguins birthrights?

[union_jak]

Okay, so I was watching Batman Returns the other night and something struck me. When Max Shreck goes to see the Penguin right before he reveals the Campaign office he says "Your extended family...could have a family". What does he mean by that?

He says "Your extended family...? Good to have a family."

[El Payaso]

He says "Your extended family...? Good to have a family."

That is what I have always heard.

[The Joker]

Ditto. I thought it was a bit of sarcastic wit on Max's part there.

[Bat Attack]

Ahhhhhh, wow. I've been hearing it wrong all these years hahaha. :o

[Rodrigo90]

Couldnt you all just check subtitles? idiots,lol.

[Bat Attack]

Couldnt you all just check subtitles? idiots,lol.

Yes, but that never came to mind. Pssh. :oldrazz:

[Bruce Malone]

Yeah just saw it again on tv the other day, I kinda realized that while Keatons performance as Bruce Wayne is pretty far from his comic counterpart it works.

What do you guys think of the idea of a neurotic kind of stumbling Bruce Wayne?

also is it just me or is Batman returns on tv so much more than batman is? i mean like for as long as I can remember. Strange seeing as Batman was more financially succesful.

[El Payaso]

What do you guys think of the idea of a neurotic kind of stumbling Bruce Wayne?

I think it's the kind of person a traumatized child who becomes obssessed with revenge would grow into.

Love that vision of him.

[Bruce Malone]

Yeah its a different spin one that is pretty believable. The comic and the nolan bruce wayne puts up the fascade of this cocky care free playboy as a disguise in that nobody woulod suspect this guy to be a hero.

But with the burton Wayne its almost as if this guy is so unasumming and i guess kind of neurotic that you would probably equally have a hard time picturing him as a great hero.

[Bat Attack]

Yeah just saw it again on tv the other day, I kinda realized that while Keatons performance as Bruce Wayne is pretty far from his comic counterpart it works.

What do you guys think of the idea of a neurotic kind of stumbling Bruce Wayne?

also is it just me or is Batman returns on tv so much more than batman is? i mean like for as long as I can remember. Strange seeing as Batman was more financially succesful.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I can't bare to watch it on television though, it's always hacked to hell by the networks. Same goes for Batman (1989). The only channel so far to do the films justice is TCM; but it's almost never on that channel anymore. I'll stick with the Blu-rays.

[panda_eater]

sorry double post

[panda_eater]

My Batman Returns review...

Tim Burton's "The Penguin" (1992)

Batman Returns is widely considered by critics, the AFI institute and Roger Ebert as the greatest film of all time beating out Unforgiven for Best Picture at the 1992 academy awards and earning Tim Burton and Danny De Vito oscars for directing and acting. It's definetely my favorite film.

De Vito completely immerses himself into his role as the Penguin and was the inspiration for Heath Ledger's own amazing immersion into the role of the Joker 16 years later.

Returns isn't really a batman film at all... "Tim Burton's The Penguin" would have been a more fitting title. Strangely Michelle Pheiffer isn't really hot even in catwoman's skintight leather outfit. I think Angelina Jolie would play a hotter catwoman in the next Christopher Nolan Batman.

Batman Returns is my life. I've seen the film probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand times. And I watch it every morning smokin' my $4 Gold Coasts and sippin' my $2 Rocking Chair. I even talk about the film every week with my counselor for an hour. She's drop dead goregeous and she's beeen encouraging me to develop social and life skills at a social rehabilitation center. **** her. I'll stick with Tim Burton's masterpiece.


Danny Elfman's haunting score is beautiful and sublime. When I first watched the opening credits at a sold out theater and the music gently built up and reached a crescendo when the film's title came onscreen it was the single greatest moment of my life.

Eighteen years later the film still lives in my heart and soul and if I ever have a child I will name him Oswald. Sometimes I struggle with suicide so that I can finally arrive at the steps of the Penguin's lair and bathe in the chilly raw sewage with his majestic emperor penguins.

more articles and reviews at http://nyquil-addict-reviews.webs.com/

[El Payaso]

:dry:

You're too much into nyquil.

[Kevin Roegele]

I think it's the kind of person a traumatized child who becomes obssessed with revenge would grow into.

Love that vision of him.

Me too. And the confusion as well. In some scenes you can literally see him wondering who he really is. When he's not being Batman he doesn't know what his purpose is in life. He's still that lost little boy who's parents have gone and he doesn't know what to do.

As Kim Newman says on the Returns DVD, when watching the scene of Bruce sitting in Wayne Manor in darkness until the Batsignal lights up; it's like he has no purpose whatsoever in life, he's just sitting their waiting.

[returntovoid]

I kinda realized that while Keatons performance as Bruce Wayne is pretty far from his comic counterpart


I liked this change they made in the Tim Burton films and BTAS.

What do you guys think of the idea of a neurotic kind of stumbling Bruce Wayne?

I prefer this version of Bruce Wayne as opposed to the obnoxious playboy.

If I were Batman, I would keep the Bruce Wayne persona as this obsessed/brooding/awkward businessman.

In some scenes you can literally see him wondering who he really is.

The perfect example is when in Batman 89, Vicki Vale asks him who/where is Bruce Wayne and he responds that he does not know or points somewhere else (can't remember the exact response). It's as if he does not know that he is Bruce Wayne for a minute.

The other example would be in Batman Returns when he said "mistook me for someone else" (self explanatory).

[The Joker]

My Batman Returns review...

Tim Burton's "The Penguin" (1992)

Batman Returns is widely considered by critics, the AFI institute and Roger Ebert as the greatest film of all time beating out Unforgiven for Best Picture at the 1992 academy awards and earning Tim Burton and Danny De Vito oscars for directing and acting. It's definetely my favorite film.

De Vito completely immerses himself into his role as the Penguin and was the inspiration for Heath Ledger's own amazing immersion into the role of the Joker 16 years later.

Returns isn't really a batman film at all... "Tim Burton's The Penguin" would have been a more fitting title. Strangely Michelle Pheiffer isn't really hot even in catwoman's skintight leather outfit. I think Angelina Jolie would play a hotter catwoman in the next Christopher Nolan Batman.

Batman Returns is my life. I've seen the film probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand times. And I watch it every morning smokin' my $4 Gold Coasts and sippin' my $2 Rocking Chair. I even talk about the film every week with my counselor for an hour. She's drop dead goregeous and she's beeen encouraging me to develop social and life skills at a social rehabilitation center. **** her. I'll stick with Tim Burton's masterpiece.


Danny Elfman's haunting score is beautiful and sublime. When I first watched the opening credits at a sold out theater and the music gently built up and reached a crescendo when the film's title came onscreen it was the single greatest moment of my life.

Eighteen years later the film still lives in my heart and soul and if I ever have a child I will name him Oswald. Sometimes I struggle with suicide so that I can finally arrive at the steps of the Penguin's lair and bathe in the chilly raw sewage with his majestic emperor penguins.

more articles and reviews at http://nyquil-addict-reviews.webs.com/

I'm not sure if you're insulting or complimenting the movie with this review. Tim Burton's "The Penguin"? :dry:

[Happy Jack]

I
If I were Batman, I would keep the Bruce Wayne persona as this obsessed/brooding/awkward businessman.

Right, so that it would be more obvious that Bruce Wayne is Batman. And Bale's cocky playboy Bruce is just a facade, the real Wayne is just as brooding.

[Travesty]

Right, so that it would be more obvious that Bruce Wayne is Batman. And Bale's cocky playboy Bruce is just a facade, the real Wayne is just as brooding.Hehe, it's just a fictional characters persona, either way. I mean, Clark Kent's only disguise, is his pair of glasses, and nobody is the wiser. He just likes that Bruce Wayne more, nothing wrong there, IMO.:cwink:

[The Joker]

Right, so that it would be more obvious that Bruce Wayne is Batman. And Bale's cocky playboy Bruce is just a facade, the real Wayne is just as brooding.

Exactly :up:

[Kevin Roegele]

I love that Bruce Wayne, just like Batman, can be interpreted a number of ways. I adore Michael Keaton's Bruce, I find him fascinating. It's almost the less we know about him, the more intresting he is. Whereas Kilmer's Bruce is more open and emotional, and public, and has more clarity about what being Batman has done to him. I love that as well.

Clooney's Bruce Wayne is just a charming playboy. Adam West, for me, is the perfect Bruce from the comics, as he is as smooth and dapper and charismatic as only a 60's screen star can be (he was approached about playing James Bond) - but Batman is always at the forefront of his mind. He is he epitamy of cool one second, and racing off to the Batcave the next. Clooney never gave such an impression.

Bale, of course, is the most practical and logical of the Bruces. He does the playboy facade as exactly that - a facade. Little touches like poring away champagne out of sight of guests are wonderful. I think there is still a lot to be explored in Bale's Batman being more than a tool to fight crime - as Rachel said, Batman is his true face. In Nolan's films, Bruce is three characters - the public playboy Bruce, Batman, and the real Bruce that only Alfred and Rachel get to see.

[returntovoid]

This last scene in Batman Returns really demonstrated Batman/Bruce Wayne's loneliness, he's really emotionally scarred and spending Christmas in misery. Then sees a shadow running by (hint at Catwoman being alive) and then picks up a black cat in a alley, I think that's symbolizing his bad luck/curse with relationships. The shot of the Batsignal, showing of Catwoman actually being alive and the main theme playing keeps you really excited for how Tim Burton's third Batman film might be but sadly due to annoying conservative groups, we were not able see Burton tie the loose ends of the Batman/Catwoman sub-plot, redemption of Batman, give the happy ending and finishing the trilogy that never was, perfectly.

nC9QBntYz9o

[returntovoid]

I just read Detective Comics #36, the way Batman gets framed due the gunman of Hugo Strange shooting someone to death and running away then Batman talks to the dying person then the police arrive and they think Batman murdered him. This framing seemed similar to how it happened in Batman Returns when the Ice Princess fell to her death from the building and the police thought Batman was responsible.

[TheBatman1]

If I was a casting director for Batman Returns, I would have taken a huge risk and cast Joan Jett as Catwoman. Joan has that way about her which makes me believe that she could have pulled off the character. Call me crazy but I think it would have worked.

[returntovoid]

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers? :oldrazz:

I thought the exact same thing when you see Batman getting shot in the Batman 89 rooftop scene, that part was creepy and looked out of a horror flick.

She probably had a Kevlar under her suit.:oldrazz:

That's probably it, it's actually lifted off of a 1946 Batman comic.

Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

The licking woke her up from unconsciousness.

One thing happens a lot in films, a dog licks the asleep owner and he wakes up due to the licking.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Well, the film is called Batman Returns not Catwoman Begins, they can't dwell on every single detail since they have to focus on other things as well not just one character that's not the protagonist, so she probably took training but they never show that in detail.

Or maybe, she was a agile person that had a accident then had amnesia, then become secretary and then another accident via her boss pushing her out the window that led her back to have the brain of the agile person. ;) I don't mean to say that literally but just a guess considering the character's origin in the film is inspired by the amnesiac air-hostess origin from Batman #62 (1950).

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.


In Batman #35 (1946) "Nine Lives Has the Cat", Catwoman goes to hire new thugs but they say no because they're not impressed with the fact that Batman has defeated her many times nor are they scared/take her seriously then she thinks of something to scare them with due to knowing that Batman makes a impact on thugs through intimidation (it's never shown how she prepares the trick) but on the next day, the annoyed thug shoots at her (when she comes to see the thugs again) but she doesn't die and she claims that she has nine lives.

It's pretty obvious that Kevlar armor was used in that issue.

If you're not convinced then I can post the two pages of this issue.

She was pale white, no breath was seen coming from her mouth in the cold, like it was just when she hit the ground etc.

What do you think happened to her?

There was just a cut/bruise on the forehead, no sign of broken body and no pool of blood.

As for, pale white??? Bruce Wayne looked pale white when the Bat-Signal light lit up on his face in the Wayne Manor study scene where he just broods, it's all about lighting or Tim Burton's deliberate visual style.

[returntovoid]

If I was a casting director for Batman Returns, I would have taken a huge risk and cast Joan Jett as Catwoman. Joan has that way about her which makes me believe that she could have pulled off the character. Call me crazy but I think it would have worked.

Don't get me wrong, the hair color might have been comic-accurate but the acting would have been lackluster compared to how the part was acted out in the film. Even though, Batman Returns Catwoman was blonde and blue eyes instead of green, the character still resembled her comic counterpart a lot. A wig and lenses would have solved something for the sake of comic-accuracy but nevermind if a adaptation is not 100% faithful to the source material.

[Two-Face]

Michelle P. did a fine job as Selina/Catwoman yeah it was Burton version not comic book one.

[The Joker]

I thought the exact same thing when you see Batman getting shot in the Batman 89 rooftop scene, that part was creepy and looked out of a horror flick.

Batman wears armour. Catwoman wears an old leather jacket she turned into a Cat suit :woot:

The licking woke her up from unconsciousness.

Wow, it's a wonder paramedics don't bring cats with them when they tend to unconscious people. Especially ones unconscious from high falls :hehe:

One thing happens a lot in films, a dog licks the asleep owner and he wakes up due to the licking.

Was the asleep owner thrown out of the top window of a building?

Well, the film is called Batman Returns not Catwoman Begins, they can't dwell on every single detail since they have to focus on other things as well not just one character that's not the protagonist, so she probably took training but they never show that in detail.

LOL! Pull the other, it's got bells on it. From the second she comes home after being revived she starts acting like cat, gulping down the carton of milk.

Or maybe, she was a agile person that had a accident then had amnesia, then become secretary and then another accident via her boss pushing her out the window that led her back to have the brain of the agile person. ;)

Pass me some of that weed you're smoking :cwink:

I don't mean to say that literally but just a guess considering the character's origin in the film is inspired by the amnesiac air-hostess origin from Batman #62 (1950).

You can only judge the movie by what was shown in the movie. This is a Tim Burton movie. There was no specific origin from the comics used for either Catwoman or the Penguin.

Burton doesn't explain Catwoman's sudden athletic abilites because it's heavily implied she inherited it from the cats that brought her back to life. It's why she likes to slurp down milk like an animal, and lick her cat costume all over after it's been in cat litter :hehe:

In Batman #35 (1946) "Nine Lives Has the Cat", Catwoman goes to hire new thugs but they say no because they're not impressed with the fact that Batman has defeated her many times nor are they scared/take her seriously then she thinks of something to scare them with due to knowing that Batman makes a impact on thugs through intimidation (it's never shown how she prepares the trick) but on the next day, the annoyed thug shoots at her (when she comes to see the thugs again) but she doesn't die and she claims that she has nine lives.

It's pretty obvious that Kevlar armor was used in that issue.

Of course kevlar armour was used. Comic Catwoman is human.

If you're not convinced then I can post the two pages of this issue.

Post away. What is it supposed to convince me of?

Can you post me some pics where Pfeiffer's Catwoman put kevlar under her costume? Then we'll be cookin' with gas.

There was just a cut/bruise on the forehead, no sign of broken body and no pool of blood.

There was none of that when Joker fell off the Gotham cathedral either in Batman '89, but he was deader than Jacob Marley, too.

As for, pale white??? Bruce Wayne looked pale white when the Bat-Signal light lit up on his face in the Wayne Manor study scene where he just broods, it's all about lighting or Tim Burton's deliberate visual style.

My god, man, are you for real with these points you're making? Bruce was sitting in a dark room, and big white light shone on his face. Of course he looked pale in that light!!!

LOL!

[returntovoid]

There was no specific origin from the comics used for either Catwoman

Check this link out, surprisingly a lot is taken from the comics for the character.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

Can you post me some pics where Pfeiffer's Catwoman put kevlar under her costume?

Where was she shown putting kevlar under her costume in Batman #35??? ;) They just skip from the thought process of coming up with a unspecified trick to the thug shooting her and nothing happening.



I really don't want to argue but let's leave it at "it was left open to interpretation" as user Cain said few pages back.

[The Joker]

Check this link out, surprisingly a lot is taken from the comics for the character.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

Oh yes, I've seen that before. But there's nothing there that suggests the comic book Catwoman could survive the fatal attacks Pfeiffer's Catwoman sustained. She brushed all of them off like they were nothing.

Why? She had nine lives, as was specified in the movie. Not kevlar. Absolutely no evidence to support it.

Where was she shown putting kevlar under her costume in Batman #35??? ;) They just skip from the thought process of coming up with a unspecified trick to the thug shooting her and nothing happening.

So what you're saying is you've got nothing then?

I really don't want to argue but let's leave it at "it was left open to interpretation" as user Cain said few pages back.

Fair enough.

I'm not criticizing Burton's Catwoman. She was great. I loved her. But she had superhuman abilities that she inherited from the cats the revived her. No question.

And I'm not convinced she had amnesia either. Otherwise why did she start a revenge vendetta against Shreck? I think she was trying to make him squirm. She looks like she's enjoying herself when she shows up in his office at the Bruce Wayne meeting.

[union_jak]

Did you miss the several canopies that broke her fall, not to mention the snow she landed on? It wasn't exactly subtle. She did not die. She was not 'resurrected by cats' and she wasn't a zombie.

Also, what's to say Selina wasn't already an active, fit person to begin with. There was a purpose to that answer machine message "Guess I should've let him win that last racquetball game" and it wasn't soley to prove she was a failure with guys.

[The Joker]

Did you miss the several canopies that broke her fall, not to mention the snow she landed on? It wasn't exactly subtle. She did not die. She was not 'resurrected by cats' and she wasn't a zombie.

Riiiiiight, so her suddenly acting like a cat, gulping down milk, giving herself "a bath" by licking herself all over, and inheriting Jason Voorhees' knack for surviving death was just a coincidence?

Maybe she got that from racquet ball, too? ;) Btw, I never called her a zombie. Zombie's are mindless. Catwoman was not.

Also, what's to say Selina wasn't already an active, fit person to begin with. There was a purpose to that answer machine message "Guess I should've let him win that last racquetball game" and it wasn't soley to prove she was a failure with guys.

Oh please!

Racquet ball made her a physical match for Batman? Racquet ball gave her the ability to do amazing back flips? Racquet ball made her able to scale buildings in mere seconds? Racquet ball made her a genius with a whip? Racquet ball gave her the ability to shake off four gun shots at close range? And don't even try and give me the kevlar argument, either ;)

Batman wears armor, and one shot from Schreck's gun from a further distance put him on the ground for several minutes. Catwoman was barely phased by 4 consecutive shots at closer range. She had supernatural abilites from being revived by the cats.

I don't know why you even try and refute it. Read any description of the character, and they'll tell you she had supernatural ability. One of many examples: http://catwomanfan.com/en/film/1992/index.php

It's not a criticism either. So what if it was different to the comics? It was still cool as hell.

[returntovoid]

Riiiiiight, so her suddenly acting like a cat, gulping down milk, giving herself "a bath" by licking herself all over

Probably was delusional that she's a cat since she was not exactly sane.

But what about Batman acting like a bat, stealthily attacking criminals from the shadows by hanging up-side down in Batman Begins, Gliding in both Batman Returns and Batman Begins, hanging up-side in the middle of night as Bruce Wayne in the bedroom and flapping his cape behind two goons, both of these in Batman '89???

I don't know why you even try and refute it. Read any description of the character, and they'll tell you she had supernatural ability. One of many examples: http://catwomanfan.com/en/film/1992/index.php

People keep misunderstanding it as supernatural and they took it literally especially when film critics thought the same.

Has Tim Burton stated anywhere that it's supernatural??? Probably not since he obviously left it open for interpretation.

[The Joker]

Probably was delusional that she's a cat since she was not exactly sane.

She's not delusional that she's a cat, she just inherits cat like tendencies from being revived by them.

If she thought she was a cat, then she'd be pooping in a litter box, and down on all fours.

But what about Batman acting like a bat, stealthily attacking criminals from the shadows by hanging up-side down in Batman Begins, Gliding in both Batman Returns and Batman Begins, hanging up-side in the middle of night as Bruce Wayne in the bedroom and flapping his cape behind two goons, both of these in Batman '89???

That's Bruce Wayne adopting his persona to frighten the criminals of Gotham into thinking he's a giant bat, which they did. He doesn't actually think he's a bat. Nobody's going to be frightened of Selina slurping down milk and licking herself.

In fact, they'd probably be turned on by it :funny: The reaction of the Mall security guards when they first saw her was "I don't know whether to open fire or fall in love hahahahaha".

People keep misunderstanding it as supernatural and they took it literally especially when film critics thought the same.

Has Tim Burton stated anywhere that it's supernatural??? Probably not since he obviously left it open for interpretation.

Nobody's misunderstanding anything, except for you and a couple of other people who are blatantly ignoring the facts of the movie with wild far fetched theories that have no basis.

And don't even pull that "Did Burton state that" rubbish on me after the baseless theories you've been throwing out here. Burton did state she was supernatural....in the movie, when he showed her brushing off death countless times. When she blatantly states she keeps surviving being killed because she has 9 lives.

[returntovoid]

Nobody's misunderstanding anything, except for you and a couple of other people who are blatantly ignoring the facts of the movie with wild far fetched theories that have no basis.

Well, I didn't come with these theories.

Users, theMan-Bat, Cain and El Payaso brought this theory, I thought they had a good point about it.

When she blatantly states she keeps surviving being killed because she has 9 lives.

Fictional characters are not always exactly honest about themselves as El Payaso said few pages back and you believed what she said??? I mean, did you believe The Joker's different stories about how he got his scars??? Or when someone calls him insane and he says "No, I'm not"???

[The Joker]

Well, I didn't come with these theories.

Users, theMan-Bat, Cain and El Payaso brought this theory, I thought they had a good point about it.

No man, none of them brought up theories about kevlar etc. Some nice ideas, but they don't hold up based on what was shown and said in the movie.

The biggest deal breaker is the finale. Four gunshots in a row, and she shakes them all off. Batman, with his fancy armor, is knocked down unconscious for several minutes by one bullet, but Catwoman brushes off four shots at close range, and then survives the electrical inferno.

She had supernatural ability. No question.

Fictional characters are not always exactly honest about themselves as El Payaso said few pages back and you believed what she said??? I mean, did you believe The Joker's different stories about how he got his scars??? Or when someone calls him insane and he says "No, I'm not"???

The Joker is not saying he has supernatural abilities. Whether he's lying about how he got his scars, or he simply remembers it differently, we'll never know because there's no evidence shown in the movie to contradict him.

Catwoman's claims for having nine lives, however, is blatantly true.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

There's no way in Bat-Hell Catwoman could have survived all those things had she not had multiple lives.

[El Payaso]

There's no way in Bat-Hell Catwoman could have survived all those things had she not had multiple lives.

Same for Batman and Joker in every incarnation so far.

[returntovoid]

This is by far better than BB and just as good as TDK IMO.

I think the other way around.

I think this is by far better than TDK and just as good as BB, B89.

[The Joker]

I agree with jaymes_e06. Returns is better than BB. Especially regarding villains, who were much more interesting than Scarecrow and Ra's.

[theMan-Bat]

She had supernatural ability. No question.

Catwoman's claims for having nine lives, however, is blatantly true.

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

[The Joker]

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

I'm sorry, but Tim is having a laugh if he said that. He has to be. What did he say during the scene when Catwoman's getting shot repeatedly at close range by Shreck with no effect?

Not supernatural.....yeah, she probably just has her Weetabix in the morning.

[returntovoid]

I agree with jaymes_e06. Returns is better than BB. Especially regarding villains, who were much more interesting than Scarecrow and Ra's.

In terms of villains, I can't really decide as I found the villains of both films to be interesting in their own way although Scarecrow was underused (I can accept that since he was the side-villain as Two-Face was also in TDK, both were underused nonetheless), but I was talking about the films overall and I found Batman Begins/Batman Returns to be on par plus better than TDK.

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

Thanks for posting this. :up::up:

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural, I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural. :funny:

[The Joker]

In terms of villains, I can't really decide as I found the villains of both films to be interesting in their own way although Scarecrow was underused (I can accept that since he was the side-villain as Two-Face was also in TDK, both were underused nonetheless)

The glaring difference being that Harvey Dent was a major character who's storyline culminated in being Two Face, wheras Scarecrow/Crane was jsut a side character with no back story.

but I was talking about the films overall and I found Batman Begins/Batman Returns to be on par plus better than TDK.

That's what I was talking about, too. Returns is better than Begins.

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural

It's not a misconception. It's one thing to have Catwoman dropped from great heights several times without so much as a broken arm, leg, or a even a sprained ankle.

But to ask us to believe she shook off four gunshots at close range without a care in the world, and claim this character is not supernatural is an insult to the audience's intelligence. Not to mention have her survive the electrical inferno with Schreck, and appear again alive and well at the end.

I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural.

Critics had nothing to do with it. Anyone with two eyes in their head saw she was supernatural. For example, this guy was just reviewing the DVD of the movie:

Supernatural forces bring Selena back to life in the form of a Catwoman and this kitty's hungry for revenge.

Link: http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/batman-returns.html?post_id=70451&action=report

No offense to Burton, but if he was trying to portray a Catwoman who had no supernatural qualities, then he did a poor job of it. Catwoman in Returns could only be supernatural to survive all she did unscathed.

[Happy Jack]

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural, I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural. :funny:
They thought it was supernatural because that's how it seemed, especially towards the end of the movie.

[theMan-Bat]

I'm sorry, but Tim is having a laugh if he said that. He has to be.

No, he wasn't laughing. He was clearly serious. The director says she wasn't supernatural so she wasn't supernatural.

What did he say during the scene when Catwoman's getting shot repeatedly at close range by Shreck with no effect?

Not supernatural.....yeah, she probably just has her Weetabix in the morning.The 9 lives thing was metaphorical, part of her cat theme and the mythology of cats. She never actually died. The shots obviously do have an effect as we see her stubbing, struggling to keep walking, moaning in obvious pain. But she kept going running on intense adrenaline. Under increased adrenaline a person can do amazing feats of strength. And people have survived being shot in the gut. Basically, as long as you don't destroy a vital organ, it is possible to survive. That Catwoman survived everything she'd been through in Batman Returns are not likely things but they are possible things. Batman material has always featured many things that are not likely but possible.

What Tim Burton says in the commentary during that scene is "I'm not a big fan of gun fire so I actually found this quite disturbing and shocking and quite emotional. I enjoyed this and again I sort of hand it to the studio for allowing this because now days I think they would get freaked out about something like this for a movie like this, 'You can't shoot a woman at point blank range', you know, I felt it was strong, it was a strong thing to do and for them not to get too upset about it was great."

[The Joker]

They thought it was supernatural because that's how it seemed, especially towards the end of the movie.

Of course it was. Boggles the mind why some people try to refute the obvious. There was nothing ambiguous here. Burton was as subtle as a sledgehammer about it.

No, he wasn't laughing. He was clearly serious. The director says she wasn't supernatural so she wasn't supernatural.

Horse radish, man.

Burton could say Batman was a cross dressing transvestite, but that wouldn't make it so, because that's not what was shown in the movie. Ditto for him saying Catwoman not being supernatural.

You can only judge a movie based on what was shown. If Burton intended Catwoman not to be supernatural, then he failed epically.

The 9 lives thing was metaphorical, part of her cat theme and the mythology of cats. She never actually died. The shots obviously do have an effect as we see her stubbing, struggling to keep walking, moaning in obvious pain. But she kept going running on intense adrenaline. Under increased adrenaline a person can do amazing feats of strength. And people have survived being shot in the gut. Basically, as long as you don't destroy a vital organ, it is possible to survive. That Catwoman survived everything she'd been through in Batman Returns are not likely things but they are possible things. Batman material has always featured many things that are not likely but possible.

Adrenaline? That's your reasoning for her survival? Batman goes down for several minutes with ONE gun shot from Schreck at an even longer distance, and he's wearing armor, but Catwoman keeps going after being shot four times in a row at close range? And then she also survives the electrical inferno, too?

Ah man, I can just about buy her falling from great heights several times during the movie, without so much as a broken arm, leg, or even a sprained ankle to show for it. But that is just bull s***.

What Tim Burton says in the commentary during that scene is "I'm not a big fan of gun fire so I actually found this quite disturbing and shocking and quite emotional. I enjoyed this and again I sort of hand it to the studio for allowing this because now days I think they would get freaked out about something like this for a movie like this, 'You can't shoot a woman at point blank range', you know, I felt it was strong, it was a strong thing to do and for them not to get too upset about it was great."

He's right, it was a great and shocking scene. And indisputable proof that Catwoman did indeed have supernatural abilities. Not that that had not been confirmed several times already during the movie, but this confirmed it absolutely. And then she pops up again at the end of the movie, still prancing around Gotham's rooftops in her costume, healthy as can be. And we know it's very shortly after she'd been shot, because the scratches she inflicted on Bruce were still fresh on his face. Still Xmas time, too. You ever heard of any normal person being up and about and scaling rooftops after being shot in the chest four times at close range?

Yeah, she's not supernatural at all :-\

[theMan-Bat]

Of course it was. Boggles the mind why some people try to refute the obvious. There was nothing ambiguous here. Burton was as subtle as a sledgehammer about it.

Horse radish, man.

Burton could say Batman was a cross dressing transvestite, but that wouldn't make it so, because that's not what was shown in the movie. Ditto for him saying Catwoman not being supernatural.

You can only judge a movie based on what was shown. If Burton intended Catwoman not to be supernatural, then he failed epically.

You are misunderstanding what Catwoman is in the film. Tim Burton explained it in the commentary. Can't be any clearer than that. You are taking literally what is meant to be metaphorical.

Adrenaline? That's your reasoning for her survival? Batman goes down for several minutes with ONE gun shot from Schreck at an even longer distance, and he's wearing armor, but Catwoman keeps going after being shot four times in a row at close range? And then she also survives the electrical inferno, too?

Ah man, I can just about buy her falling from great heights several times during the movie, without so much as a broken arm, leg, or even a sprained ankle to show for it. But that is just bull s***.Catwoman being supernatural is what is just bull s***. She wasn't. Tim Burton says she wasn't supernatural. If she is supernatural then where is she getting powers from? Magical kitties? I think you've watched Halle Berry's Catwoman too many times.

He's right, it was a great and shocking scene.Tim Burton is right that it's a great scene but he's wrong that she's not supernatural? You must be joking, Joker.

And indisputable proof that Catwoman did indeed have supernatural abilities. Not that that had not been confirmed several times already during the movie, but this confirmed it absolutely. Not according to Tim Burton, the director of the movie.

And then she pops up again at the end of the movie, still prancing around Gotham's rooftops in her costume, healthy as can be. And we know it's very shortly after she'd been shot, because the scratches she inflicted on Bruce were still fresh on his face. Still Xmas time, too. You ever heard of any normal person being up and about and scaling rooftops after being shot in the chest four times at close range?

Yeah, she's not supernatural at all :-\She's not supernatural. Tim Burton states it himself. I tried to help you understand the film better by providing you with the directors explanation. And you seem to be arguing with everyone just to be argumentative.

[The Joker]

You are misunderstanding what Catwoman is in the film. Tim Burton explained it in the commentary. Can't be any clearer than that. You are taking literally what is meant to be metaphorical.

Yeah, silly me for misinterpreting someone surviving being shot 4 times at close range, an electrical inferno, and being dropped from great heights several times, and not a bother on them after any of it.

How silly of me and millions of others for not interpreting that as normal human endurance :cwink:

Catwoman being supernatural is what is just bull s***. She wasn't. Tim Burton says she wasn't supernatural. If she is supernatural then where is she getting powers from? Magical kitties? I think you've watched Halle Berry's Catwoman too many times.

I've actually never even seen Halle Berry's Catwoman movie. She has kitty powers, too? Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from? :cwink:

Wasn't Denise DiNovi, the producer of Returns also the producer on that movie, too?

Tim Burton is right that it's a great scene but he's wrong that she's not supernatural? You must be joking, Joker.

Not according to Tim Burton, the director of the movie.

She's not supernatural. Tim Burton states it himself. I tried to help you understand the film better by providing you with the directors explanation. And you seem to be arguing with everyone just to be argumentative.

Look mate, if your only argument is "because Tim Burton said so", then we're done here. Directors can be notorious for poorly conveying something in a movie, despite what their intentions were, and this is a prime example of one of them.

I don't know who Burton's medical consultant was for this movie, but they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground who ever they were.

I'm not knocking Catwoman's supernatural abilities, I think they were a very cool. But don't accuse me of being argumentative for the hell of it. Trying to tell me that Catwoman had no supernatural abilities with everything she endured is like trying to say black is white.

If you want to interpret her amazing survivals of death as adrenaline rushes, then go for it. I need a bit more meat to the debate other than "Because Tim Burton said so".

Just agree to disagree.

[theMan-Bat]

Yeah, silly me for misinterpreting
someone surviving being shot 4 times at close range,
an electrical inferno, and being dropped from great heights
several times, and not a bother on them after any of it.

How silly of me and millions of others for not interpreting that
as normal human endurance :cwink:

It's not supernatural. This is pretty standard stuff in Batman comic books.
In Batman #5 (1941), "The Case of the Honest Crook" by Bill Finger,
Batman is shot three times at close range, doesn't die and keeps coming after Smiley Sikes, and beats him,
plus forces a signed confession proving Joe Sands’ innocence and then drags him to the police.
http://i41.tinypic.com/vencew.jpg
Drops the paper and Smiley Sikes off at the Gotham Police Station,
then Batman goes to a doctor and collapses.
The doctor says "I don't know how he kept going the way he did with three bullets in him! Amazing...Amazing..."
http://i42.tinypic.com/34qlqc6.jpg
In Batman #245 (1972), "The Bruce Wayne Murder Case" by Denny O'Neil, Batman is electrocuted with hundreds of volts of electricity,
doesn't die and recovers almost immediately.
Also in the comics, Joker, for example, has been dropped from great heights many times:
http://i44.tinypic.com/671bom.jpg
http://batmanmovieonline.com/content/89comicanalysis/Batman390013.jpg
Been struck by lightning:
http://i44.tinypic.com/zogvb5.jpg
Appeared to have died many times:
http://i39.tinypic.com/9fr80i.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/rv9jb6.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2v8nv2g.jpg
And doesn't die. Does that mean Batman and Joker are supernatural?
No, and neither is Catwoman in Batman Returns.

I've actually never even seen Halle Berry's Catwoman movie.
She has kitty powers, too? Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from? :cwink:
Wasn't Denise DiNovi, the producer of Returns also the producer on that movie, too?And the writers of that movie were John D. Brancato, Michael Ferris, and John Rogers, not Batman Returns writers Daniel Waters and Wesley Strick,
and the director of that movie was Pitof, not Tim Burton,
the "Catwoman" of that movie was Patience Phillips with kitty powers, unlike Selina Kyle.
Director Pitof said "It’s very different, and that’s the whole point. To make something completely different and to start something with her.
I mean, it’s a new start to “Catwoman.” Halle Berry is Catwoman and I think it’s been designed for her to make it very different." http://movies.about.com/od/catwoman/a/catwmpi071904.htm
And director Pitof said "it's a different world. There's no link with Gotham City, and there's no link with any superheroes."
http://www.**************.com/catwoman/news/?a=892#int0
"The idea is to develop this character in a relatively realistic world à la Spider-Man," he said.
"We'll probably set it in the near future but in a North American urban setting, which is more classic.
The main idea is to develop a female superhero and give her depth not to make her a bimbo or a sexy vigilante.
She's a woman's hero for women. There will be no direct link with Batman, nor will there be Batman-esque imagery and it won't be set in Gotham City.
The story will be different and the costume will be different.
We aren't keeping anything from Catwoman except the original idea: the character.
The idea is to begin her story from scratch, and possibly begin a franchise." http://www.cinecon.com/news.php?id=0304164

Look mate, if your only argument is "because Tim Burton said so", then we're done here.
Directors can be notorious for poorly conveying something in a movie,
despite what their intentions were, and this is a prime example of one of them.

I don't know who Burton's medical consultant was for this movie,
but they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground who ever they were.

I'm not knocking Catwoman's supernatural abilities, I think they were a very cool. But don't accuse me of being argumentative for the hell of it.
Trying to tell me that Catwoman had no supernatural abilities with everything she endured is like trying to say black is white.

If you want to interpret her amazing survivals of death as adrenaline rushes, then go for it.
I need a bit more meat to the debate other than "Because Tim Burton said so".

Just agree to disagree.Tim Burton has explained this in the Batman Returns commentary so there is really nothing to argue about.
Tim Burton explains that it is deliberately ambiguous and intentionally mysterious, but not supernatural.
"The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around
and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing,
so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious,
we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

[The Joker]

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore :up:

You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say :up:

And it's given me a greater appreciation for Pfeiffer's Catwoman, whom I loved so much as it is.

[returntovoid]

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore :up:


Agreed. :up::up:

[returntovoid]

Batman 1989 is great but what I think is better about Batman Returns is that it has more psychological depth, more german expressionism, the difference between good and evil is more grey in the film, much more three-dimensional/tragic villain in The Penguin and a better female character that is stronger/more feminist (Batman's equal, not a damsel-in-distress).

Both are great films and both are on my favorite films list.

[RustyCage]

In response to theMan-Bat (http://forums.superherohype.com/member.php?u=36886): That post was fantastic in terms of Burton being true to the source material. I greatly enjoyed the nostalgia trip. :)

However, I have to say, while those things aren't necessarily 'supernatural', they clearly aren't very realistic. Most of the time.

Either way, this has me wondering whether or not Joker really died at the end of '89...

PS - Great post, returntovoid!

[eledoremassis02]

can any one provide links to scrips for Batman Forever scripts when they still had keaton/burton in mind

[returntovoid]

can any one provide links to scrips for Batman Forever scripts when they still had keaton/burton in mind

Well, the script can't be found.

But this Youtuber seems to remember reading it and maybe lost the copy.

Tim Burton's Batman III:

qCh34ORcXA0

Script points according to the Youtuber:

-Chip Shreck blames Batman for the death of his father Max Shreck

-Harvey Dent comes back from Metropolis

-Chip Shreck tries to sue Batman in court but Harvey Dent defends Batman

-Chip Shreck throws acid in Harvey Dent's face turning him into Two-Face

-Two-Face starts to blame Batman for being disfigured

-The mysterious Riddler played by Robin William sends Bruce Wayne riddles and seems to know he's Batman but they don't encounter each other until towards the end

-Bruce Wayne goes to psychiatrist Chase Meridian after getting the riddles and they start dating but she get's murdered mysteriously

-Batman think's Catwoman murdered her but he's not really sure

-Batman does detective work to find out who's sending him the riddles and who really murdered Chase Meridian

-Marlon Wayan's plays Batman's young mechanic but he never becomes Robin

-Toward the end, The Riddler get's Batman to reveal his identity through the riddles

-The Riddler and Two-Face never team-up in the script

-Batman and Catwoman team-up to battle each villain separately, first they capture Riddler to take him to Arkham Asylum and then they encounter Two-Face (who dies)

-At the very end, Batman and Catwoman are kissing under the moonlight then all of a sudden you hear the sound of him putting handcuffs on her. He takes her to Arkham for the murder of Chase Meridian but it's still unresolved since Catwoman says "Did I do that?" and it's open-ended, you never know whether she killed her or not.

[eledoremassis02]

Oh wow, thanks for the info. Sounds interesting.

Here are some film cells I scanned

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_001.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_002.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_015.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_020.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/duo_maxwell07740/film%20cells/BR_018.jpg

[Chiroptera]

God, i wish Tim Burton made a third movie :csad:

[eledoremassis02]

I was thinking, was the abandoned zoo suppose to be abandoned when penguins parents dropped him in the lake?

[Two-Face]

Well, the script can't be found.

But this Youtuber seems to remember reading it and maybe lost the copy.

Tim Burton's Batman III:

qCh34ORcXA0

Script points according to the Youtuber:

-Chip Shreck blames Batman for the death of his father Max Shreck

-Harvey Dent comes back from Metropolis

-Chip Shreck tries to sue Batman in court but Harvey Dent defends Batman

-Chip Shreck throws acid in Harvey Dent's face turning him into Two-Face

-Two-Face starts to blame Batman for being disfigured

-The mysterious Riddler played by Robin William sends Bruce Wayne riddles and seems to know he's Batman but they don't encounter each other until towards the end

-Bruce Wayne goes to psychiatrist Chase Meridian after getting the riddles and they start dating but she get's murdered mysteriously

-Batman think's Catwoman murdered her but he's not really sure

-Batman does detective work to find out who's sending him the riddles and who really murdered Chase Meridian

-Marlon Wayan's plays Batman's young mechanic but he never becomes Robin

-Toward the end, The Riddler get's Batman to reveal his identity through the riddles

-The Riddler and Two-Face never team-up in the script

-Batman and Catwoman team-up to battle each villain separately, first they capture Riddler to take him to Arkham Asylum and then they encounter Two-Face (who dies)

-At the very end, Batman and Catwoman are kissing under the moonlight then all of a sudden you hear the sound of him putting handcuffs on her. He takes her to Arkham for the murder of Chase Meridian but it's still unresolved since Catwoman says "Did I do that?" and it's open-ended, you never know whether she killed her or not.

Thanks for clearing this up I always kept thinking whenever I watched the movie "Where Dent went during the events in Batman Returns?"

[Excelsior.]

Is it just me or is Batman Return's Blu-Ray picture quality much better than Batman 89?

[The Joker]

Is it just me or is Batman Return's Blu-Ray picture quality much better than Batman 89?

I agree, it seems much more crisp and clear. But then I think the visuals in Returns are so much nicer than B'89's. The snowy Gotham is just gorgeous.

[RustyCage]

Yeah, it's always seemed like Returns had way better cameras or something, so I'm not surprised. You guys have me wanting to get a Blu-ray player!!

[Two-Face]

I agree, it seems much more crisp and clear. But then I think the visuals in Returns are so much nicer than B'89's. The snowy Gotham is just gorgeous.


Sure is. BR blu-ray is richer, sharper than Batman 89. If you look at Schumacher ones B&R has more crisp, clear and looked richer than Forever. Too bad B&R sucked though.

[mongoose-mania]

After watching Batman yesterday, I saw it only fitting to watch this film as well.
I never get tired of this movie. To me, it's just utterly beautiful throughout, and has such engaging character. Both Penguin and Catwoman are two of the most sympathetic characters, but because of all the things they do and get away with, you can't really root for them, and I love that.
And the scene in which Selena Kyle trashes her apartment is probably one of my favorite scenes of all-time. And Danny Elfman's score over it just adds so much more. I love it.

[returntovoid]

I learned a lot about Batman Returns from users Cain, Man-Bat, El Payaso and jamesCameronOnl. I've got a lot appreciation for Tim Burton's Batman films especially Batman Returns, now. :bow::awesome: Here's a blog post dedicated to every hard-core Batman Returns fan that got fed up with reiterating many times that Selina Kyle/Catwoman is not supernatural. Time to spread the word around that this is a misconception on the part of film-critics, audiences and some fans.


http://backtovoid.blogspot.com/2010/11/its-not-supernatural.html

[GothamAlleys]

^ yup. The way I've always seen it is that the fall caused a brain damage and awakened some primal instinct, therefore she had all those physical abilities. As for being shot repeatedly and surviving, I also always excluded the supernatural. Theres toying with the idea present, but that its just all real life stuff. people survive multiple shots and we dont know if Selina did get some medical attention or if she somewhat healed the wounds herself, since she was quite immune to pain. Not to mention that none of her wounds were life threatening, she got mostly hit in the arms and on the sides of her body. The evidence that the 9 lives thing is just a metaphor is that Selina never actually died and yet she refers to all of her failings or falls as deaths and counted down the lives. I tihnk all that is simply yet another homage to the Golden Age where Catwoman ...well, stuff happened like in the movie, see for yourself

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/lovegunner/Batman/9livesq.jpg

And again, if anyone's trying to judge this movie by the standards of the "regular" movies that hes missing the point. Batman Returns, like most of Tim Burton's early movies, does not comply to the rules of logic and technical accuracy - nor does it need to, nor did it ever claimed to do. It's a ethereal and expressionistic tale, its just not that type of a story

[returntovoid]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/lovegunner/Batman/9livesq.jpg



In the next panel for that comic, Catwoman declares in her thought bubbles that she made sure that the bullets in his gun were blank cartridges.

[GothamAlleys]

I know but just that scene always reminded me of the scene with Shreck shooting. Plus there were instances of Catwoman falling off the plane and her body missing

[GREEN =w= DAY]

with X-Mas season already among us, it's only fitting that i watch this movie :woot:

[El Payaso]

I know but just that scene always reminded me of the scene with Shreck shooting. Plus there were instances of Catwoman falling off the plane and her body missing

Catwoman fell into some kind of dam in the 1966 TV series and according to Batman no one could have survived that. He even cried over her death. But she came back... as Eartha Kitt. :woot:

[Bat-Mite]

Catwoman fell into some kind of dam in the 1966 TV series and according to Batman no one could have survived that. He even cried over her death. But she came back... as Eartha Kitt. :woot:If only everyone could have such a resurrection! I loved the purrrrrrrrrrfect way in which she rolled her R's. She is a legend and is missed dearly.

[returntovoid]

I know but just that scene always reminded me of the scene with Shreck shooting.

Ah, I get what you mean.


Plus there were instances of Catwoman falling off the plane and her body missing

Yeah, that happened in her first suggested origin from Batman #62 (1950). But what other comics did it happen in???

[GothamAlleys]

Yeah, that happened in her first suggested origin from Batman #62 (1950). But what other comics did it happen in???

It happened few times, the one that I can pinpoint is Batman #35 if Im not mistaken

[ALP]

And again, if anyone's trying to judge this movie by the standards of the "regular" movies that hes missing the point. Batman Returns, like most of Tim Burton's early movies, does not comply to the rules of logic and technical accuracy - nor does it need to, nor did it ever claimed to do. It's a ethereal and expressionistic tale, its just not that type of a story

The only true answer that needs to be stated :up:

[Cain]

I loved Max Schreck, such an unapologetic bastard.

[returntovoid]

edit

[returntovoid]

http://i42.tinypic.com/2v8nv2g.jpg


Which Batman comic from the 40's is that panel from???

[GothamAlleys]

Which Batman comic from the 40's is that panel from???


Batman #7

[HistoryChief]

Hi everyone, I'm a writer for Spectrum Culture. One of our writers recently wrote a piece about the film Batman Returns, which I think users of this forum would enjoy reading and hopefully commenting on. It's meant to be a humorous, slightly irreverant but also well-informed retrospective on the film.

All comments are welcome.

As this post is entirely Batman-related and hopefully will prompt discussion on this forum, I hope the admins will allow it.

Thanks for your consideration.

http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html (http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html)

[ALP]

Hi everyone, I'm a writer for Spectrum Culture. One of our writers recently wrote a piece about the film Batman Returns, which I think users of this forum would enjoy reading and hopefully commenting on. It's meant to be a humorous, slightly irreverant but also well-informed retrospective on the film.

All comments are welcome.

As this post is entirely Batman-related and hopefully will prompt discussion on this forum, I hope the admins will allow it.

Thanks for your consideration.

http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html (http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html)

All I can say is that I hope you don't get paid for writing that mind numbing dribble. You name drop Takashi Miike yet also refer to Batman Returns as "delirious out of whack, weird beyond belief." Which is it? You either know what real twisted cinema is or you're ignorant and think Batman Returns is as strange as films get.

The internet just proves that anyone can write a poorly executed excuse of an article on a blog and call themselves a journalist. lol Don't quite your day job.

[El Payaso]

Hi everyone, I'm a writer for Spectrum Culture. One of our writers recently wrote a piece about the film Batman Returns, which I think users of this forum would enjoy reading and hopefully commenting on. It's meant to be a humorous, slightly irreverant but also well-informed retrospective on the film.

All comments are welcome.

As this post is entirely Batman-related and hopefully will prompt discussion on this forum, I hope the admins will allow it.

Thanks for your consideration.

http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html (http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html)

Poor review - aka gratuitously sarcastic review with the only purpose of getting a few cheap laughs - with an even poorer vocabulary. Remember that if you want your reviews to be taken seriously you must avoid to repeat the word "s*itty" so much. :down

[Ponyboy]

Hi everyone, I'm a writer for Spectrum Culture. One of our writers recently wrote a piece about the film Batman Returns, which I think users of this forum would enjoy reading and hopefully commenting on. It's meant to be a humorous, slightly irreverant but also well-informed retrospective on the film.

All comments are welcome.

As this post is entirely Batman-related and hopefully will prompt discussion on this forum, I hope the admins will allow it.

Thanks for your consideration.

http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html (http://spectrumculture.com/2011/01/wtf-batman-returns.html)


I wouldn't say it's well informed at all. While delightfully sarcastic... it certainly wasn't funny... Batman Returns is what it is. A review like this, 20 years later, seems just as out of place as the writers sloppy choice of wording.

[Spider-Aziz]

Explaining Penguin alone makes me want to facepalm:

A new born baby from a rich family, because his parents saw him scary looking they caged him one day old
The baby could sit, reach his hand out of the cage bars to grab a cat, and who knows what he really did to it
Found in the sewers by penguins (what were they doing there?)
A circus finds him and lets him join them, but the penguins are still in the sewers. At least we get an insight on how Oswald learns to talk, let alone to read, I would refuse to believe penguins teach a human how to speak
What was his source of nutrition? He could have died in the sewers just one month old
Years after he was born, he went back to the sewers and the penguins are still there
How the heck did he trace whatever he found in the sewers back to its original source (Max Schreck)? He could have collected them from many places, how the heck does he know of the name of the dead partner of Schreck?
Where did all of his clothes come from?
How the heck did he get all his gadgets and thugs unseen in the sewers? And who would take orders from a fat smelly old....bird?
How does the city take a guy they only knew for so little as their leader?
How the heck did his minions know how to fix the bat-Mobile, let alone how to open the shield, without having any way to tamper with it beforehand?
Is that broad so stupid she can't recognize the talents scouts are the city mayor and another person? Good for her she's dead

This story is full of fail

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

By that logic... Explain Edward Scissorhands. I mean, come on, this is a Burton movie.

Batman Returns is a fable... a fairy tale... a gothic opera... and its beautiful because of it.


Its simply one artists take on the Batman mythology... I personally cant stand what Frank Miller does to the Batman characters (The Dark Knight Returns included) but its still only one persons very valid interpretation.

[GothamAlleys]

By that logic... Explain Edward Scissorhands. I mean, come on, this is a Burton movie.

Batman Returns is a fable... a fairy tale... a gothic opera... and its beautiful because of it.


Its simply one artists take on the Batman mythology... I personally cant stand what Frank Miller does to the Batman characters (The Dark Knight Returns included) but its still only one persons very valid interpretation.

Exactly, again as I mentioned in another thread, people who look for such realty and paralells to real life in classic Burton movies are completely missing the point. Especially in the case on Edward Scissorhands and Returns which are both for a fact confirmed (by Burton, by filmmakers and by Expresisonist circles) to be an Expressionist tale. Once again, to explain what does that mean in a pill:

Expressionism is a mode of representation whereby internal feelings and abstract concepts are displayed externally, often at the expense of realism and artistic convention. Expressionist art usually has a surreal or fantastic quality to it, presenting distorted aesthetics through which the true nature of a thing is belied in its external countenance (Catwoman's patchy suit - Selina's patchy and fragmented personality, Batman's suit - his inner darkness and psychosis, the look and design of Gotham with the statues in cry and despair - the dark and evil nature of the city, Selina's apartment in worn out pink - her sad and tired character etc). In narrative terms, Expressionist films were often preoccupied with dark subject matter such as evil and madness (Keaton's Batman and Catwoman = madness, Penguin-evil). The Penguin's home in a cathedral-like cave is furnished with elegantly curved Gothic arches and dark vaults

Batman Returns, like most of Tim Burton's early movies, does not comply to the rules of logic and technical accuracy - nor does it need to, nor did it ever claimed to do. It's a ethereal and expressionistic tale. Just like Edward Scissorhands, it follows a classic dark fairy tale formula mixed with modern storytelling and Burton's surreal, gloomy and artistic vision

More here for those who are interested and missed it - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/09/nightmare-that-tastes-like-candy-was.html

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Yeah, I've read a few articles on the inherent expressionism in Batman Returns... and as a film studies student, it made me appreciate the film so much more than I already did.

It's powerful stuff... and allows it to be the most artistic and therefore fascinating Batman movie that has been made.

[Spider-Aziz]

By that logic... Explain Edward Scissorhands. I mean, come on, this is a Burton movie.

Batman Returns is a fable... a fairy tale... a gothic opera... and its beautiful because of it.


Its simply one artists take on the Batman mythology... I personally cant stand what Frank Miller does to the Batman characters (The Dark Knight Returns included) but its still only one persons very valid interpretation.
I like the movie as it is, and I enjoy Edward Scissorhands

[theman]

batman was a badass in batman returns. i just watched this on bluray the other night on my 50" HDTV. looks amazing in HD let me tell you. bluray made me appreciate this film more, the look of it is like wow. i love the blue and black colors, those were always batman colors to me. catwoman...isnt that like pfieffers best role? ive seen her in many movies since then but this is by far her most complex role and memorable role. i liked her also in fabulous baker boys but this was a real challenge.

batman returns was way ahead of its time, simply put. look at batman movies today with nolan and how popular they are. yes they are realistic, but they also got that dark tone again which hasnt been seen since Returns came out. TDK wasnt as dark as Returns, but it was close, and it had some quite disturbing scenes like joker holding that guy hostage in the meathouse and just the way he was reminded me of the grotesqueness of devito's penguin. both ledger and devito took that comic character and turned it on its head and did something totally different. jack to me though is still the best joker overall, but ledger's version was certainly different from what we know from the movies and comics.

back to topic though, the new films have dark creepy scenes and stuff and the thing is, tim burton did this way before nolan did (better even, to me at least). Returns is defiently the more artistic and emotional of all the films, which maybe is why its not quite as popular as B89. all the characters are messed up bigtime, all of them are tragic in some way, and noone really wins in the end, even batman. that harkens back to the 40's film noirs exactly, where main characters would die and noone in the end wins. batman in this one did NOT get the girl, and the bad guys kinda defeat themselves. i would like to know though how the bats just appeared from the batboat after penguin pressed the button.

[returntovoid]

I think Max Shrek is a very relevant villain for the modern world because he represents the evil that is hidden in society. He has this public facade of respected business tycoon but behind that something sinister lurks.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/batmanreturnspremiere2.jpg

[Ponyboy]

interesting reading about Batman Returns...

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Batman_Returns

[The Joker]

The Penguin's arsenal of umbrellas were the best ever.

[Ancracks]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but this is a badass review:

http://366weirdmovies.com/batman-returns-1992-a-superhero-burlesque

[Ponyboy]

YkSKj3VXTi4

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

YkSKj3VXTi4

Ahh Michael Keaton...

Definitely better in the movie though.

[Ponyboy]

Yeah! Great to see extra footage like that... since there seems to be none. Or WB & Burton have kept a tight lid on it over the years..?

[Smalley]

Yeah! Great to see extra footage like that... since there seems to be none. Or WB & Burton have kept a tight lid on it over the years..?
In one of the docs on the special features disc of the 2-disc Returns set, you see a cut moment after Selina shocks the clown where she says "electro-shock therapy... what a bargain". Also, in one of the international trailers, you get to see Catwoman laughing laying on The Penguin's bed...