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Ponyboy

04-01-2011, 11:22 PM

Interesting. I never had the 2-disc set, although I have em on Bluray. Shame they havent released more footage on those films. Maybe when the films are 25 years old...

Ponyboy

04-03-2011, 01:41 AM

Does anyone in America remember seeing this poster in the theatres? I'd like to know more about it, whether it is fan made or not...:huh:

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/misc/paulo/batman/02.jpg

El Payaso

04-03-2011, 09:26 AM

Does anyone in America remember seeing this poster in the theatres? I'd like to know more about it, whether it is fan made or not...:huh:

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/misc/paulo/batman/02.jpg

I happen to own that poster. A friend of mine gave to me back in 1992. This guy was a journalist (student I think) and someone gave the poster to him and he gave it to me because he knew how much of a Batman fan I was. It's official and as far as I know it was for the theaters.

The Joker

04-03-2011, 10:32 AM

That is probably my second favorite Batman poster ever. I love it. I remember seeing it in the video rental stores when the movie was due to come out on VHS.

Godzilla2014

04-03-2011, 11:07 AM

Does anyone in America remember seeing this poster in the theatres? I'd like to know more about it, whether it is fan made or not...:huh:

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/misc/paulo/batman/02.jpg

Something weird I noticed: On the posters, the show Catwoman as having white skin, which she doesn't have in the film, but Batman's face is its natural color.

Ponyboy

04-03-2011, 03:04 PM

Her face makeup when she's dressed as Catwoman is noticeably whiter...

Godzilla2014

04-03-2011, 03:50 PM

Her face makeup when she's dressed as Catwoman is noticeably whiter...

Even so, in the film, its nowhere the Joker white is here, and in fact I notice no difference in skintone between when she is dressed as Catwoman and when not.

theman

04-03-2011, 04:29 PM

Godzilla2014

04-03-2011, 04:48 PM

yeah but the makeup definetly gives her the appearance of very pale and the color hue of the film makes her skin look alot more whiter.same with penguin.

btw, that above poster is probably my favorite Returns poster, right next to the original Returns "symbol" poster. was never crazy about the theatrical poster witht he 3 faces. i always thought it was cool if they had the batskiboat on the poster.

My favorite poster is the symbol with the snow you mentioned. I wish they used that one for the home video release cover. It fits better with BATMAN's cover with the symbol

Ponyboy

04-03-2011, 09:59 PM

this one is pretty cool...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JGgzOkYhIb0/TNROjyTlSGI/AAAAAAAAHEQ/zpWgX3UFIsU/s1600/batman+return+poster.jpg

theman

04-04-2011, 02:27 PM

ho0ly crap where did you get that? thats awsome! is it fan made?

Ponyboy

04-04-2011, 03:12 PM

Nah its by a guy named Tom Whalen.

http://strongstufftom.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html

genesis

04-07-2011, 12:34 PM

Classic movie wonder how Christopher Nolan Catwoman will be.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

04-07-2011, 12:44 PM

Something weird I noticed: On the posters, the show Catwoman as having white skin, which she doesn't have in the film, but Batman's face is its natural color.

It was the visual representation of the villians for the movie, certainly for the posters...

Plus... It's simply more striking I feel.

Ponyboy

04-09-2011, 07:48 PM

Link is dead, mate

Pfeiffer-Pfan

04-11-2011, 02:19 PM

Really funny UK advert for Batman Returns:

http://youtu.be/ikUTr4vpc5I

''Gotham City needs saving... so get your arse down the Batcave, Michael Keaton!'' :awesome:

Ponyboy

04-11-2011, 03:32 PM

haha, love it... thanks for sharin

Cain

04-13-2011, 10:07 PM

Does anyone in America remember seeing this poster in the theatres? I'd like to know more about it, whether it is fan made or not...:huh:

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/misc/paulo/batman/02.jpg

I much prefer the more common poster a lot more to this one. This poster is not representative of the tone of the film at all. It makes it look like a generic blockbuster in comparison to the other. Regular poster is a great image of Burton's artistic expression on this film, with it having the characters form a totem pole of sorts. It says that these 3 are not only a part of the same whole but also highlights the duality of these characters and how their animal avatars are the more dominant sides. Just a brilliant representation of this film's symbolism as a whole. I also do like the snow covered bat oval one too a lot. For the same reason that somebody stated before, it continues the theme from the poster of the first film rather nicely.

Blitzkrieg Bop

04-14-2011, 01:31 PM

Some part of my dream last night included DeVito's Penguin as my computer wallpaper.

Hellion

05-07-2011, 11:55 PM

And of course.....

http://www.karmaproductions.net/lisaguerrero/images/batman/bat13.jpg

"And you're the hottest young person a role model could have."

I loved how deliciously perverted Penguin was in the film.

Ponyboy

05-07-2011, 11:56 PM

"Lemme just... get it on there..." *puts button on boob* :funny:

Hellion

05-07-2011, 11:57 PM

Does anyone in America remember seeing this poster in the theatres? I'd like to know more about it, whether it is fan made or not...:huh:

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/misc/paulo/batman/02.jpg

I've seen this poster before...way, way, after the film came out...IIRC, the only poster I ever saw in theaters was the three faces one, someone mentioned earlier (same as most DVD, VHS art IIRC), I remember the first time I saw this one, I fell in love with it.

Ponyboy

05-08-2011, 12:17 AM

I found out from the same guy that told me about the 1989 Batman one sheet (in the 1989 official Batman thread) that this poster was printed in the U.S. and was used as the "International One Sheet" for overseas (non-US) markets.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/14700000/Batman-Returns-batman-returns-14752902-269-400.jpg

Mister Meddle

05-08-2011, 01:18 AM

My favorite poster is the symbol with the snow you mentioned. I wish they used that one for the home video release cover. It fits better with BATMAN's cover with the symbol

Kind of like this?

http://www.mangpong.co.th/ProductImage/product/002806.jpg

Ponyboy

05-08-2011, 01:38 AM

this one I think... also an awesome poster

http://thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Batman%20Returns%20poster.jpg

ChocheTheHero

05-08-2011, 08:24 AM

Mister Meddle

05-08-2011, 12:52 PM

this one I think... also an awesome poster

http://thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Batman%20Returns%20poster.jpg

Yes. Would've been appropriate for home video releases so it could resemble the 89 cover.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-08-2011, 01:49 PM

Yes. Would've been appropriate for home video releases so it could resemble the 89 cover.

It eventually did... quite a nice job they did too.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/BatmanDVD.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/BatmanReturnsDVD.jpg

Godzilla2014

05-08-2011, 02:01 PM

Mister Meddle

05-08-2011, 03:02 PM

It eventually did... quite a nice job they did too.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/BatmanDVD.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/BatmanReturnsDVD.jpg

Yeah it looks pretty nice. I have both on blu ray. I especially like the updated B89 emblem movie poster. But I can do without the generic "best seller font" for the text.

Ponyboy

05-08-2011, 03:11 PM

Yeah I wished they kept the original movie fonts for the Blu-ray covers. :doh:

Blitzkrieg Bop

05-08-2011, 03:12 PM

I don't care either way, because now I have the Blu-Rays. :awesome:

Mister Meddle

05-08-2011, 03:15 PM

And you thought the visuals were great in the Burton two, they looks ten times better in blu ray, especially Returns due to the lighting, the art aspect and better video quality.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-08-2011, 03:31 PM

Yeah... Returns looks spectacular on Blu-ray.

Two-Face

05-08-2011, 03:56 PM

I love my blurays same as DVD cover.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Two-Face24/1226928403.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Two-Face24/Batman-se-vraci-Batman-Returns-BluR.jpg

I love BF B&R covers as well BF one much beter than original one.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Two-Face24/1226928323.jpg

The Joker

05-08-2011, 07:24 PM

Yeah... Returns looks spectacular on Blu-ray.

It came out looking the best out of the four, IMO.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-08-2011, 09:38 PM

Once I got the bluerays I have a hard time watching them on any other platform, I think they did a tremendous job with the transfers which we should be thankful for.

Alot of transfers of older films just look plain awful I'm glad WB were smart and did a good job with these, I think they knew these would be good sellers considering the fanbase, and how us batfans like to rebuy new updated batman stuff for our collections.

Mister Meddle

05-08-2011, 09:54 PM

Definitely. Both films felt very fresh and exciting to watch when I got them on blu ray. It definitely boosted my interest in watching the films again and again.

Ponyboy

05-08-2011, 11:22 PM

Yeah... Returns looks spectacular on Blu-ray.

Oh man, you ain't lyin' :cwink:

bullets

05-19-2011, 03:44 PM

Yeah... Returns looks spectacular on Blu-ray.

Great transfer. So glad I picked this up for $10 at Walmart today.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-19-2011, 06:49 PM

Haha I had to buy mine used for 11.99 nowhere in my town had BR on blueray.

Milu

05-19-2011, 08:21 PM

Anyone else love the main title sequence? The way the music and the visuals set you up for the movie (even when it's just starting, as that violin creeps in and "WARNER BROS. PICTURES PRESENTS" fades in)...

This is why I tend to prefer opening credits over 10 second title cards.

Ponyboy

05-19-2011, 08:49 PM

Definitely. I love the music once the baby carriage drops down into the sewer. Beautiful. :woot:

Smalley

05-19-2011, 08:58 PM

Mister Meddle

05-19-2011, 09:22 PM

Two-Face

05-20-2011, 09:21 AM

I agree I love how B89 & BR start and in BR I love bats cover up the screen

IuMZHOHlpws

Milu

05-20-2011, 10:24 AM

B89's was awesome as well. I like how you don't know what kind of strange rock formation you're going through when you first watch it, and then as the last of the credits appear, BAM, you see the Bat-emblem in all of its glory.

Gosh I need those movies on Blu-Ray to watch on my HDTV/PS3. :awesome:

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-20-2011, 10:31 AM

Yes you do Milu at this point they're essentials. It will always bug me though that the extras on the bluerays are the same as the 05 release of the dvd anthology. Also that they could never get updated interviews on 89 and BR for Keaton or Pfieffer.

Two-Face

05-20-2011, 10:52 AM

that reminds me, Devito talks about staying in character then they show him pushing the camera away or something.

Mister Meddle

05-20-2011, 07:00 PM

Seeing Nicholson do the interview on his Joker character was a treat on the B89 blu ray.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-21-2011, 09:48 AM

ya those two are the only major cast members who did new interviews for the extras for the anthology. We all new Nicholson would do it considering how much money he's made from the first four films.

Marck87

05-21-2011, 01:25 PM

Reason for Keaton not doing interviews may have been because of that little dispute that WB started right before Batman Forever were being made?

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-21-2011, 03:08 PM

Ya I've heard that rumor before, plus many others but no real facts on the matter. Having Keaton do some new commentary or interviews would have made it awesome, much better than Burtons scatter brained responses.

It's ok though those new Keaton interviews just released a week or so ago were very interesting and satisfying.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-21-2011, 03:34 PM

ALP

05-21-2011, 03:53 PM

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-21-2011, 04:48 PM

www.herocomplex.latimes.com there are two interview pieces with Keaton one primarily about 89 and there's another about BR.

I'm sorry since I post on my phone it's difficult to find the exact link, if you search the site I'm sure you can locate it.

ALP

05-21-2011, 05:05 PM

Thanks!!! That's so brilliant to hear his thoughts looking back. I haven't ever heard him speak about Batman post-films. Cool:cool:

Damn I love him. I'm a big fan of Nolan's Batman movies and they're great but I'll always love what Keaton and Burton gave us too.

Ponyboy

05-21-2011, 05:30 PM

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/05/12/michael-keatons-dark-memories-of-batman-and-shining-love-for-beetlejuice/

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-21-2011, 05:36 PM

Hmm... on Letterman back in 1992, he said Returns was a FAR better picture than the first one.

Wonder why? :cwink:

Meh I love both equally.

Ponyboy

05-21-2011, 05:39 PM

Yeah! He said it's "Much much better than the first one." But if you note how he says it... looking down at the floor, and not being too convincing... ;)

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-21-2011, 05:42 PM

Ha yeah!

I think thematically its much better... and Burton seems more creative and happy behind the camera.

But Keaton really had nothing to do!

ALP

05-21-2011, 06:53 PM

Hmm... on Letterman back in 1992, he said Returns was a FAR better picture than the first one.

Wonder why? :cwink:

Meh I love both equally.

LOL, are you serious? In the interview posted above, Keaton says the first time he saw BR he thought it wasn't as focused as B'89 was.:funny:

Keaton was terrific in B'89, I really think he's just as good/memorable if not better than Jack in the first film. With the second film, it's true he didn't have as much to do but I thought he worked well with what was given to him. Great chemistry with Pfeiffer and I like the other Wayne scenes when he's talking to Alfred about the Penguin. And as Batman... I think it was for Returns when Keaton said he told Burton and Dan Waters that he should talk less. So you can thank him for such little Batman monologue:o

Overall Batman Returns remains my favorite. It was a grandiose, operatic, piece of dark fantasy. Clearly I understand why others might not like it but I thought it was great. Burton's characters are always strange, ridiculous, pathetic, beautiful, and gothic... it's just not for everyone. I'd say his rendition of Catwoman as fragile, ready-to-snap crazy, and sympathetic remains my favorite.

:awesome:

Mister Meddle

05-21-2011, 07:34 PM

Ha, of course he was going to put Returns over. He had to promote the film.

Batman 1989 was better as a Batman movie but as a film Batman Returns was superior. I really don't understand why it's criticized for being "too dark" as if it's a bad thing. You don't hear anyone criticizing movies for being "too light". Or it could be that I grew up thinking the tone was normal.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-21-2011, 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=Ponyboy;20392537][url]

thanks for posting the link Pony it's so hard to post on these boards with a little phone all day lol.

It's such a great interview any diehard batman fan needs to read this.

Ponyboy

05-21-2011, 10:32 PM

No problem! It's a great article. Great to hear from Keaton and though I've always respected him... I respect him even more now. He seems to be about as grounded and level headed as they come.

Marck87

05-22-2011, 07:09 AM

I don't recall hearing anything about a dispute. They were desperate for him to return, offering a HUGE salary... and he kindly told them the direction and script was ****.

Forever went on to be pretty big... so i'm not sure there were any hard feelings.

Yeeah, I meant that the dispute was from WB's side, claiming that Keaton wanted more money, when he actually just said politely no due to the direction the series were being taken.

Blitzkrieg Bop

05-22-2011, 11:59 AM

redfirebird2008

05-22-2011, 12:36 PM

I always had a real "like it/don't care for it" relationship with the movie up until I got the Blu-Ray. Now sure, the transfer's great, but I think then I finally just came to terms with what it is and now I really like it, more so than the first.

Favorite scene:
r2N4WNZipDA

Good choice! Here is my favorite:

PS_mGeTCQWc

Gives me chills every time. I love Burton's interpretation of Bruce as a lonely outsider just waiting to be called into action.

Smalley

05-22-2011, 02:46 PM

lalexosgwUk

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-22-2011, 02:55 PM

Love the torn up cat-suit with the hair hanging out. :hrt:

I don't care if its realistic or not... the suit rocks in general.

Smalley

05-22-2011, 02:56 PM

Love the torn up cat-suit with the hair hanging out. :hrt:

I don't care if its realistic or not... the suit rocks in general.
What do you mean not realistic?

El Payaso

05-22-2011, 03:02 PM

A scene that caught me forever is the whole sequence when Selina is thrown through the window and becomes Catwoman. It was really unsettling and masterfully executed.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-22-2011, 03:03 PM

There was some discussion in The Dark Knight Rises boards, along the lines of ''Catwoman would never wear high heels... it makes NO sense'', showing a pic of the Burton-Catwoman on all fours drinking milk...

But hey. I KNOW this costume is and always will be 10 times sexier than whatever Nolan dreams up. (Must repress fanboy tendancies :oldrazz:)

The Joker

05-22-2011, 03:23 PM

A scene that caught me forever is the whole sequence when Selina is thrown through the window and becomes Catwoman. It was really unsettling and masterfully executed.

I heard it took several takes to do the scene with the cats all over her because they kept irritating Michelle.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

05-23-2011, 03:19 PM

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/mh-1.jpg

I wonder of Halle knew here how much she was really ****ing up her Catwoman performance. :woot:

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-23-2011, 05:48 PM

I don't consider that travesty anything related to Catwoman, no Selina Kyle = NO CATWOMAN!

Ponyboy

05-23-2011, 06:38 PM

I remember actually giving Halle Berry's Catwoman a chance... I think I watched about 15 minutes and turned it right off.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

05-23-2011, 09:18 PM

I remember actually giving Halle Berry's Catwoman a chance... I think I watched about 15 minutes and turned it right off.

After they released an official pic of her in costume I felt there was nothing there to give a chance to.

Hellion

05-23-2011, 10:42 PM

But hey. I KNOW this costume is and always will be 10 times sexier than whatever Nolan dreams up. (Must repress fanboy tendancies :oldrazz:)

The Burton-era Catwoman is the definitive film Catwoman to me......I don't think Nolan can top it.

Smalley

05-23-2011, 10:44 PM

The Burton-era Catwoman is the definitive film Catwoman to me......I don't think Nolan can top it.
Fo' real.

bullets

05-28-2011, 08:39 PM

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm187/Merry_Mutant/mh-1.jpg

I wonder of Halle knew here how much she was really ****ing up her Catwoman performance. :woot:

Pfeiffer really looks good for her age.

bane

05-29-2011, 02:23 AM

Best scene from the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zuMMuFjpA

Bruce Malone

05-29-2011, 04:49 AM

Mister Meddle

05-29-2011, 11:55 AM

This is still to me the definitive burton Batman film. You can tell with the 1st one he was trying to fit into a mold here you can tell he got his way. It's my favorite of the two as well for likely that reason.
That's true but it's like that with all directors. Schumacher tried to provide something traditional but took his approach to a new extreme in Batman and Robin. Nolan's realistic tone was in full swing in his second film as well.

Ponyboy

06-07-2011, 03:19 AM

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/gallery/1227233742.JPG

Ponyboy

06-11-2011, 11:01 PM

http://p1.la-img.com/1120/24237/8841883_4_l.jpg

http://p2.la-img.com/1120/24237/8841883_5_l.jpg

Blitzkrieg Bop

06-12-2011, 12:04 PM

http://p1.la-img.com/1120/24237/8841883_4_l.jpg

That's inappropriate. :o

Reevz666

06-12-2011, 12:25 PM

my copy of the batshop Returns cowl fiberglass master ( looks like it could use some dusting tho :oldrazz:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/reevz666/8ed1029e.jpg

Diemtay

06-13-2011, 11:05 PM

I just came here to say this...

Selina and Bruce should have ended up together god damnit! :cmad:

I demand an alt ending be made depicting them having a happy ending.

Ponyboy

06-13-2011, 11:45 PM

I just came here to say this...

Selina and Bruce should have ended up together god damnit! :cmad:

I demand an alt ending be made depicting them having a happy ending.

While your post made me LOL.... I don't think that was a good idea. I like the fact that it didn't work. It kept the movie somber.

Smalley

06-13-2011, 11:52 PM

Diemtay

06-14-2011, 12:10 AM

As stated by Catwoman/Selina, that sort of "fairytale ending", where she comes to live in his castle, forever and ever, would be at odds with the film's constantly tragic, dark tone, and unlikely given Selina's degenerative mental state.
Even as a literature buff, I'd pick the happy ending over a theme-faithful ending any day. I would have been a joyfull man if I got to see Batman and Catwoman leaving Penquin's hide out, holding hands together, to live happily ever after. I mean, you have two toretured souls, they deserve to have someone they can love, who is truly like themselves. I think everyone would want to see them have each other in the end.

Yes, I have a 13 year old girl living inside me, who needs to see true love on film... hence why I love Titanic.

Hellion

06-14-2011, 12:35 AM

Best scene from the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zuMMuFjpA

I always tear up watching that scene(call me crazy, I know)...as evil and twisted and miseralbe a person as the Penguin was, if things had played out differently...:csad:...now I wanna watch Batman Returns again...

...this was my first Bat-Film, and to me, the definitive Bat-Film....

Ponyboy

06-14-2011, 03:09 AM

Yes, I have a 13 year old girl living inside me, who needs to see true love on film... hence why I love Titanic.

Get to your nearest hospital, please.

Mister Meddle

06-14-2011, 12:48 PM

Best scene from the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zuMMuFjpA

You know what's so badass? Although his cowl was ripped off the suit, Bruce still very much looks like Batman. It has a lot to do with Keaton's eyes.

The Penguin's death is one of my favorite scenes from the film. "Ahhh ****, I picked the cute one".

The best part of the scene is when Penguin dies. I like how the sad music plays after he dies rather than before or during (in most movies). He just drops dead like a fly as if it's no big deal until you see the Penguins coming out.

Mister Meddle

06-17-2011, 12:31 PM

The original Batman Returns trailer (not the one that's in the extras of the DVD or the blu ray) is probably the most epic Batman movie trailer ever made. Especially that shot of the emblem in the middle of a blizzard.

Wp4AguvAjkE

Smalley

06-17-2011, 04:42 PM

DaRkVeNgeanCe

06-17-2011, 07:07 PM

I remember seeing that trailer for the first time on it's premier on Entertainment Tonight, it was epic I can still feel the excitement like it was yesterday.

Ponyboy

06-17-2011, 07:27 PM

Here's one in HD... I think this one came first as they were using the '89 Batman font with the actors' names at the end.

Too3qgNaYBE

DaRkVeNgeanCe

06-17-2011, 07:33 PM

I'm pretty sure that's the same trailer on the extras for the BR SE dvd and blueray

SHADOWBAT69

06-18-2011, 05:17 PM

ShaneHelms

06-22-2011, 09:33 PM

Thanks goes to Reeves for these incredible images from the merchandising campaign.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/br-sg-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/1236041583.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/1236041797.jpg

Ponyboy

06-22-2011, 09:35 PM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/5162029389_92183e1ed6.jpg

Ponyboy

06-23-2011, 04:16 AM

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/d8f9f6f08acd0976_large

Sharkboy

06-24-2011, 08:25 AM

I still remember seeing the TV spot when i was a kid, then once I got it on vhs, i watched it over and over (as kids do) till the tape just broke down. Still my second fave batman film even after TDK came out.

Doctor Jones

06-24-2011, 03:25 PM

Keaton is a playa.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

06-24-2011, 10:42 PM

Awesome promo art, I remember having that one piece of grahic art on a tshirt as a kid, I wish I still had all my 89 and BR shirts.

RedSkull

06-24-2011, 11:57 PM

Genosha

06-26-2011, 04:17 AM

Huge X-Men fan first and foremost, so I hardly come to the Batman area. But I have to say, Batman Returns is one of my favorite films of all time.

It helps that it's Tim Burton (my favorite director), but I was just mesmerized by this film when it came out in '92. There is something so hypnotic about it. I got the VHS for Christmas that year and I've must've watched it a whole bunch of times since. I still get the chills when I throw the DVD in.

A beautiful, beautiful film and it's great to see there are still fans of this out there.

Genosha

06-26-2011, 04:37 AM

One more thing:

Do people remember the gigantic backlash this film got for being "too dark" or "too much a Burton film"?

It's kind of amusing to me because the film has aged so well (so epic) and I still consider one of the best in it's genre.

Hellion

06-26-2011, 10:59 AM

Huge X-Men fan first and foremost, so I hardly come to the Batman area. But I have to say, Batman Returns is one of my favorite films of all time.

Me too, and Batman Returns is the only comic films I'll say I enjoy more than the X-Films...

BR is still my favorite of the Bat-Films, the first Bat-Film I saw in theaters, and for years from the time it came out on VHS till maybe 5-6 years ago till I lost it in an unfortunate VCR accident...I would watch it.

Mister Meddle

06-26-2011, 11:14 AM

You gotta admit, Keaton can definitely get the ladies. He even went out with Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah that's right, the real Michelle Pfeiffer! :woot:

Ponyboy

06-26-2011, 02:28 PM

Yeah that's right, the real Michelle Pfeiffer! :woot:

Is there another one? :cwink:

Mister Meddle

06-26-2011, 02:57 PM

Is there another one? :cwink:
Often imitated but never duplicated.

JohnnyGobbs

06-26-2011, 04:24 PM

Hey guys, new member here and I just wanted to chime in say that I've really enjoyed paging through this thread and I wish I could go back and reply to everything.

Batman Returns is not only my favorite Batman film, but one of my favorite films in general. I think it has received a lot of harsh and undeserving criticism over the years due to people saying it's not a "batman" film but I positively love it. I'm looking forward to discussing it further in depth with you all.

I'd also like to add that I consider myself something of an expert on the film having written literally essays on the subject...so if anyone has any particular questions on Batman returns I'd love to go over it.

Welcome to the boards RedSkull!

I'd be really interested in reading any of your essays on Batman Returns if that's possible. I'm particularly interested in reading any type of discussion about the film's themes, characters, and also how they all tie into the film's visual motifs.

Also, do you have any little-known behind-the-scenes at all?

Thanks in advance!

RedSkull

06-26-2011, 05:46 PM

sure I've done some write ups on it. PM me if you care to read one of them which is far too long to post here.

as far as behind the scenes stuff. I did a lot of reading up on the penguin make up and the prosthetics process...there were some cine-fx magazines published back when returns came out which I was able to track down and pick up actually the day I visited the hall of records set (currently still located on the backlot in Burbank). Devito actually shaved his head (despite being already bald) in anticipation of the role, which was half his creation and half burtons. Burton told the make up designers that he wanted the Penguin to be the one character in Batman returns that had the "traditional" burton look with the dark circles around the eyes and the pale skin, which was totally intentional and he was modeled around the character types make up wise for beetlejucie and edward scissorhands. Around the mid 90's the "burton archetype" with the dark eyes and pale skin sort of faded until sweeney todd but you can still see traces of it in his current films.

The returns set was a giant sound stage including a pool filled with water and some real penguins and some animatronic penguins. To keep the temperatures right for the animals, it was frigid the entire time they were filming the sewer sequences and the production ran way over schedule.

I know plenty of tid bits about behind the scenes stuff if you had particular questions.

Ponyboy

06-26-2011, 09:04 PM

Often imitated but never duplicated.

I'm surprised Pfeiffer took the role... what with the fact that she had dated Keaton before (and obviously they were no longer together). So, I guess their break up was amicable?

Smalley

06-26-2011, 09:05 PM

I'm surprised Pfeiffer took the role... what with the fact that she had dated Keaton before (and obviously they were no longer together). So, I guess their break up was amicable?
Possibly.

RedSkull

06-26-2011, 09:44 PM

I think they wanted to take someone sane as opposed to Sean Young who auditioned for the role in full costume and wanted it very badly (she also tried out for Vales role in 89).

Smalley

06-26-2011, 09:46 PM

I'm just glad Annette Benning dropped out; no way she would've been able to have the same intensity!!!

The Joker

06-26-2011, 09:50 PM

You say that but she may have surprised you. Pfeiffer's movie history prior to Returns never really suggested she could play a psychotic dual conflicted character like Burton's Catwoman. DeVito was primarily a comedy actor.

Smalley

06-26-2011, 09:51 PM

Ponyboy

06-26-2011, 09:52 PM

I'm just glad Annette Benning dropped out; no way she would've been able to have the same intensity!!!

Hard to say. She was officially cast, wasn't she? So obviously they liked what they saw her do in terms of the audition. :huh:

Smalley

06-26-2011, 09:54 PM

Hard to say. She was officially cast, wasn't she? So obviously they liked what they saw her do in terms of the audition. :huh:
I'm sure; just saying, compared to Michelle's final performance, which is one of my favorites ever, I doubt Annette could have pulled off the same intensity.

The Joker

06-26-2011, 09:56 PM

You can't judge based on a performance you've never seen. Bening was nominated for an Oscar prior to Returns. She's a terrific actress. There's really nothing to suggest she couldn't have been as good as Pfeiffer.

Ponyboy

06-26-2011, 09:56 PM

Sure, the role would've been different. I always found Bening's casting unusual too, but Burton must've seen something wacky in it. I'm glad it was Pfeiffer in the end... she gave us all a Catwoman worth remembering. :cwink:

Smalley

06-26-2011, 09:58 PM

You can't judge based on a performance you've never seen. Bening was an Oscar winner prior to Returns. She's a terrific actress. There's really nothing to suggest she couldn't have been as good as Pfeiffer.
Looking at her Wiki, Bening was only ever nom'd for Oscars. Yeah, I know Michelle hasn't won 1 either, but still...

Mister Meddle

06-27-2011, 01:37 AM

I'm surprised Pfeiffer took the role... what with the fact that she had dated Keaton before (and obviously they were no longer together). So, I guess their break up was amicable?
I was thinking the same thing. It was probably a mutual break up. Keaton seems like a great guy so I can't picture anyone really having any problems with him, unless they're intimidated by his panther eyes :woot:

returntovoid

06-27-2011, 03:45 AM

Get to your nearest hospital, please.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Ponyboy

06-27-2011, 05:19 AM

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Glad somebody enjoyed that one. :cwink:

Pfeiffer-Pfan

06-27-2011, 05:18 PM

I'm surprised Pfeiffer took the role... what with the fact that she had dated Keaton before (and obviously they were no longer together). So, I guess their break up was amicable?

There was a number of factors in Pfeiffer's decision...

She desperately wanted to work with Burton, she remained very good friends with Michael Keaton... and she got a pretty good nudge from her agent to be in something commercial. :cwink:

She would have been insane to turn down the role...

ShaneHelms

06-28-2011, 02:38 PM

I posted my other one in the 89 thread, So i figured i should post this one also.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/shanehelms121/untitled.jpg

DaRkVeNgeanCe

06-29-2011, 10:13 AM

I absolutely love that artwork.

El Payaso

06-29-2011, 10:23 AM

I liked it too, but much of the panels were very small, in order too tell the whole story.

Mister Meddle

06-29-2011, 10:01 PM

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9846/catwomancatwomanselinak.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9846/catwomancatwomanselinak.jpg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Catwoman-catwoman-selina-kyle-18927984-362-500.jpg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Catwoman-catwoman-selina-kyle-18927987-425-620.jpg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Catwoman-catwoman-selina-kyle-18928412-995-801.jpg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Catwoman-catwoman-selina-kyle-18928414-995-788.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9846/catwomancatwomanselinak.jpg

Smalley

06-29-2011, 11:04 PM

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9846/catwomancatwomanselinak.jpg

Never seen this picture before!!! Sweet. I also adore the other pics you posted, 'specially the first one; wasn't it taken under a black-light or something to get the surreal coloring? Soooooo pretty...

Mister Meddle

06-30-2011, 12:18 AM

Never seen this picture before!!! Sweet. I also adore the other pics you posted, 'specially the first one; wasn't it taken under a black-light or something to get the surreal coloring? Soooooo pretty...

Here is another one :woot:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9846/catwomancatwomanselinak.jpg

Smalley

06-30-2011, 12:22 AM

Romantic!

RedSkull

06-30-2011, 12:37 AM

Anyone ever wonder if Batman tears the cowl literally every time he takes it off?

Hellion

06-30-2011, 11:19 AM

Two-Face

06-30-2011, 12:17 PM

Very Nice and we will see won't we?

Blitzkrieg Bop

06-30-2011, 01:28 PM

I just noticed that the picture on the top left on the back of the Blu-Ray has DeVito photoshopped out.

Smalley

06-30-2011, 03:57 PM

I just noticed that the picture on the top left on the back of the Blu-Ray has DeVito photoshopped out.
Of course. people don't watch the movie for him :woot:

Mister Meddle

06-30-2011, 03:58 PM

I just noticed that the picture on the top left on the back of the Blu-Ray has DeVito photoshopped out.
Haha I actually went to look at this on the back of my BR blu ray case. I never noticed it. Either that or they shot a separate picture of Batman without Devito.

We really need more pictures in this thread. It seems like there aren't that many promotional images or behind the scenes shots from Batman Returns floating around on the internet. I'll try to find some more later on.

I just had to post those Catwoman pictures. Michelle is so beautiful and she looks incredibly sexy in the Catwoman promotional shots. She was probably the first female I ever thought was hott.

Smalley

06-30-2011, 04:00 PM

Haha I actually went to look at this on the back of my BR blu ray case. I never noticed it. Either that or they shot a separate picture of Batman without Devito.

We really need more pictures in this thread. It seems like there aren't that many promotional images or behind the scenes shots from Batman Returns floating around on the internet. I'll try to find some more later on.
http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/gallery.php?cat=1&moviegallery=2

Mister Meddle

06-30-2011, 04:04 PM

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/gallery.php?cat=1&moviegallery=2
Thanks. Batman Movie Online is a great website. However they don't have as many promotional images from Batman Returns.

By the way Blitz is right, Devito was photoshopped out. I found the exact same picture on the website.

EDIT: Found another one. Michelle looks so sexy in these pictures. :hrt:

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/37/b603b2c5bc88423cbdb12c520b2d7575/l.jpg

Pfeiffer-Pfan

06-30-2011, 05:41 PM

Very Nice and we will see won't we?

Naturally... as Anne Hathaway will be shiny new and dripped in REALISM.

Michelle has about another year of glory left before she goes the way of Nicholson.

Smalley

06-30-2011, 05:43 PM

Naturally... as Anne Hathaway will be shiny new and dripped in REALISM.

Michelle has about another year of glory left before she goes the way of Nicholson.
Nah, no one will ever overshadow her.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

06-30-2011, 05:46 PM

Nah, no one will ever overshadow her.

Well Hathaway will never surpass Michelle in terms of acting ability...

After Heath... its my favourtite and most accomplished Bat-villian performance.

The Joker

06-30-2011, 07:16 PM

Nah, no one will ever overshadow her.

Well maybe not for you....

Smalley

06-30-2011, 07:22 PM

Well maybe not for you....
She shouldn't be overshadowed for ANYBODY.

Superman Prime

06-30-2011, 08:29 PM

Well maybe not for you....

She shouldn't be overshadowed for ANYBODY.

There's room for more than one star in the sky.

Happy Jack

06-30-2011, 10:53 PM

I think Hathaway has bigger shoes to fill than Ledger did, to be honest.

Bat-Mite

07-01-2011, 02:19 AM

I think Hathaway has bigger shoes to fill than Ledger did, to be honest.I agree. Jack really didn't have anything to prove, and it shows. Not saying that he was a bad Joker, just that he didn't give it his all like Michelle did with Catwoman.

Marx

07-01-2011, 02:16 PM

I think Hathaway has bigger shoes to fill than Ledger did, to be honest.

I completely agree. Pfeiffer is pretty much the gold standard for Catwoman. :up:

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-01-2011, 06:16 PM

Is it wrong of me to know in advance that while i'll no doubt appreciate the Nolan/Hathaway Catwoman... I'll never LOVE it like I did Michelle's.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

07-01-2011, 06:30 PM

Is it wrong of me to know in advance that while i'll no doubt appreciate the Nolan/Hathaway Catwoman... I'll never LOVE it like I did Michelle's.

I don't see it as a problem it's all really personal preference, I absolutely adore Michelles Catwoman in the same vein as you, and also feel while I may really like and enjoy Anne's interpretaion that I'll still like Michelles better.

I cant lie that nostalgia does have something to do with it, but either way she set the bar really high and put her heart into that role. I'm not even sure I'll feel the same way about Jack and Heaths Jokers as I do Michelle and Annes Catwomans. Where as I find that I like them both equally for their different amazing interpretations.

I guess well see what our true opinions are next summer :)

RedSkull

07-01-2011, 07:53 PM

Michelle was purrfect as Catwoman. I'd love to see Anne Hathaway top her as obviously I always love to see great things. Why hope for something to suck? But at the same time, it's a tough act to follow and Hathaway just doesn't seem as much the part. But I could be wrong as many of us were about Ledger

Macphisto

07-01-2011, 08:25 PM

Michelle has about another year of glory left before she goes the way of Nicholson.
Indeed. I do find it quite fascinating that most comic book/film fans are unable to appreciate more than one interpretation at the same time. One film - usually the newest - is hailed the greatest film ever made and the cast and crew should be knighted, while the other - usually the oldest - is now automatically the 'WurSt fiNg EvA!!!' despite itself having once been considered the bee's knees. Their world is very black and white. It's quite amusing, actually.

Mister Meddle

07-01-2011, 08:36 PM

Just like with Ledger, I'm not doubting Hathaway. Nor am I excited or saying that she's going to do a terrific job because we really don't know what's going to happen. Usually I place the criticism and praise on hold until I actually see something. The villains in the past two Nolan films did a great job but every director and actor will have their weaker moments. You never know when that's going to happen.

Regardless of all the praise that she gets to this day, there's no question in my mind that there will be fanboys bashing Michelle's Catwoman to no end just because they're buzzed about the new film. It's pathetic how blind and closed minded some people are.

returntovoid

07-02-2011, 06:56 AM

again...nothing will ever top this Catwoman.

I couldn't agree more.

Michelle looks so sexy in these pictures. :hrt

:up:

returntovoid

07-02-2011, 07:07 AM

References
Citizen Kane (1941)
Vertigo (1958)
Psycho (1960)
A Nightmare On Elm Street (1984)
A View to a Kill (1985)

I'm curious to know what are the references to these films in Returns

Bat-Mite

07-03-2011, 01:03 AM

I don't know about the others, but the Psycho reference is when Bruce and Selina are on their date at the mansion and Bruce mentions Norman Bates.

returntovoid

07-03-2011, 02:21 AM

I don't know about the others, but the Psycho reference is when Bruce and Selina are on their date at the mansion and Bruce mentions Norman Bates.

Yes, for a while it didn't occur to me.

The Joker

07-04-2011, 04:47 PM

"Hehehehehe you missed"

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/returnsdrywall.gif

Marx

07-04-2011, 04:54 PM

:yay:

Blitzkrieg Bop

07-04-2011, 06:27 PM

I just realized that Batman shooting the dart gun at the clown might have been a reference to what Batman did to that crook in the first one.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

07-04-2011, 10:29 PM

Awesome gif, Keaton always looks like a pure badass when he took out his criminals. The look he gives the clown thug when he says "you missed" right before he knocks him unconscious is priceless.

Mister Meddle

07-04-2011, 11:53 PM

Batman never looked better in live action.

http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/batman-returns-keaton.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4997/br01l.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6623/br02.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8219/br03s.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4924/br04.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5113/br05.jpg

returntovoid

07-05-2011, 03:50 AM

"Hehehehehe you missed"

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/returnsdrywall.gif

:hehe:

I just realized that Batman shooting the dart gun at the clown might have been a reference to what Batman did to that crook in the first one.

It's actually a reference to The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1038/dkrhs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/dkrhs.jpg/) http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9264/brhs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/brhs.jpg/)

Ponyboy

07-05-2011, 03:59 AM

Hmm. Interesting comparison to Miller's work. Although it's not so close to the material that it defies speculation. :cwink:

returntovoid

07-05-2011, 04:03 AM

Hmm. Interesting comparison to Miller's work. Although it's not so close to the material that it defies speculation. :cwink:

Click on the link, there are many comparisons to The Dark Knight Returns towards the end of the article.

In fact, Michael Keaton was given to read it to prepare for the role.

Ponyboy

07-05-2011, 04:06 AM

Oh I'm not arguing that. I've heard all about Burton & Keaton being influenced from DKR. Didn't Tim Burton say "The Killing Joke" was also an influence?

I'm merely saying those panels aren't so similar in providing proof that that's where the scene inspiration came from. :cwink:

returntovoid

07-05-2011, 04:58 AM

Didn't Tim Burton say "The Killing Joke" was also an influence?

He said it was the first Batman story he loved that he could get into. I think the B89 confrontation was inspired by it and Returns aspect of the 4 characters being metaphorically in a mental Asylum but I think Nolan borrowed more from The Killing Joke for the characterization of Joker.

I'm merely saying those panels aren't so similar in providing proof that that's where the scene inspiration came from. :cwink:

Not exactly the same scene, I agree but the idea of Batman shooting someone in the head due to a hostage situation sure did inspire it.

Marx

07-05-2011, 12:44 PM

Blitzkrieg Bop

07-05-2011, 02:00 PM

Keaton definitely looks the best as Batman.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-05-2011, 02:39 PM

I miss Burton's visual flair... Nolan never goes for those ''moments''.

Keaton always looked stunning as Batman.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

07-05-2011, 10:42 PM

I miss Burton's visual flair... Nolan never goes for those ''moments''.

Keaton always looked stunning as Batman.

Totally agreed, in every way.

returntovoid

07-06-2011, 01:27 AM

I miss Burton's visual flair... Nolan never goes for those ''moments''.

I completely agree.

Burton's visual style was mix of 1920's German Expressionism, 1940's/50's Film-noir and Gothic.

Nolan's visual style is more of Modern cinema along the lines of a realistic and gritty Crime-drama.

They both have their own vastly different respective visual styles.

The Joker

07-08-2011, 10:58 PM

After Arkham Asylum, this is my favorite Batman game:

f-aq2UEjEOY

Marx

07-08-2011, 11:08 PM

Keaton definitely looks the best as Batman.

I miss Burton's visual flair... Nolan never goes for those ''moments''.

Keaton always looked stunning as Batman.

I completely agree. :up:

Mister Meddle

07-08-2011, 11:12 PM

Batman Returns is definitely the best Batman game after Arkham Asylum. The music is very impressive.... it's exactly what a 16 bit version of Danny Elfman's score would sound like. Overall it's very fun. Batman (1989) for the NES is number three in the top Batman games. The biggest downside is the game (Batman 89 on NES) is hard as hell.

I completely agree.

Burton's visual style was mix of 1920's German Expressionism, 1940's/50's Film-noir and Gothic.

Nolan's visual style is more of Modern cinema along the lines of a realistic and gritty Crime-drama.

They both have their own vastly different respective visual styles.

Same here. I don't understand why anyone had a problem with Batman Returns being "too dark". It would be a problem if it's a comedy about people dancing to sparklers and music. In my opinion darker is better because the universe best suits Batman. I hope [visually] the next Batman films will be darker.

Ponyboy

07-08-2011, 11:45 PM

Same here. I don't understand why anyone had a problem with Batman Returns being "too dark". It would be a problem if it's a comedy about people dancing to sparklers and music. In my opinion darker is better because the universe best suits Batman. I hope [visually] the next Batman films will be darker.

I never got it either. The first Burton Batman film was just as dark (in my opinion)... And parents should've had some inclination as to what to expect in a sequel. Also, the film was rated PG-13 in America, right? So why expect that it's totally safe for your 8 year old? Ugh. Whatever.

Mister Meddle

07-09-2011, 12:09 AM

There were some sexual references. Such as that scene during that costume party Bruce asked if there were any hard feelings and Selina responded with "semi hard I'd say". But it's not like children understood what it meant.

Hell when I was a kid, as young as four or five years old, I didn't think it was that dark, well other than the visuals but I thought it was normal for a Batman universe.

DarkKnight88

07-09-2011, 09:21 AM

"Just the pussy I was looking for."

The Joker

07-09-2011, 09:23 AM

There was complaints about the violence, too. Batman setting people on fire, Penguin biting noses, cats chewing Selina's fingers etc.

Marx

07-09-2011, 11:15 AM

I prefer a darker Batman movie.

Grillz

07-09-2011, 03:23 PM

I prefer a darker Batman movie.

Amen to that. I've always loved Batman Returns because it is just so dark. Loved Devito's Penguin. Plus it helps that Michelle Pfeiffer was in that catsuit.

Marx

07-09-2011, 04:10 PM

Grillz

07-09-2011, 05:14 PM

True.

Ponyboy

07-09-2011, 05:24 PM

El Payaso

07-09-2011, 05:58 PM

My only problem with Returns was Penguin's characterization. I really enjoyed Devito's performance, but I wish that he would have been a regular mobster...not something with webbed fingers that ate fish.

That's like saying I wish the Joker was a regular man in a purple coat and make-up (nothing against Ledger's cuz he had the perma-smile anyways) or that Catwoman had been a regular woman in a black dress.

In this movie, the Penguin finally stopped being just a second-hand character with a big nose and became a real menacing penguin.

I don't mind that so much as the fact that he was overshadowed by Walken.

Was he? :wow:

Mister Meddle

07-09-2011, 07:48 PM

I really liked Burton's Penguin because the character was deep and it was easy to care about him. Who didn't feel for Oswald? He was abandoned by everyone, including his parents when he was a baby because he was deformed. And what was the outcome? Death.

Blitzkrieg Bop

07-09-2011, 08:04 PM

I like him because of his one-liners.

"Maybe this is a bad time to mention this, but my license has expired!"

"Helpless old lady, 12 o' clock!"

"You didn't invite me, so I crashed!"

"****! I picked the cute one."

ShaneHelms

07-09-2011, 08:44 PM

Awesome promo art, I remember having that one piece of grahic art on a tshirt as a kid, I wish I still had all my 89 and BR shirts.

I agree. I had a few t-shirts and a puzzle with that graphic art, I wish i had kept up with them over the years. Although i still have the puzzle that i kept and framed.

Marx

07-09-2011, 11:26 PM

That's like saying I wish the Joker was a regular man in a purple coat and make-up (nothing against Ledger's cuz he had the perma-smile anyways) or that Catwoman had been a regular woman in a black dress.

In this movie, the Penguin finally stopped being just a second-hand character with a big nose and became a real menacing penguin.

I really liked Burton's Penguin because the character was deep and it was easy to care about him. Who didn't feel for Oswald? He was abandoned by everyone, including his parents when he was a baby because he was deformed. And what was the outcome? Death.

Like I said, I absolutely loved Devito's performance. I just wish Penguin hadn't been a green goo oozing, fish eater with webbed fingers. The fact that Paul Reubens played his father was definitely a plus! :funny:

The Joker

07-09-2011, 11:30 PM

Would have been cooler if they got Burgess Meredith to play his father. I heard they tried to get him but he was too ill at the time to do it.

Marx

07-09-2011, 11:32 PM

I do :hrt: Burgess Meredith. :yay:

Ponyboy

07-10-2011, 12:45 AM

Was he? :wow:

I thought so. He was of a puppet of Max Schrek... even though he had the "master plan" to steal all the children that Max didn't seem to know about. I think Schreck was just overused. But they needed him as the foil for Catwoman (to create her) and as the guy who could bring Penguin out of the sewers and into the spotlight. Kind of a tricky thing to do, really.

redfirebird2008

07-11-2011, 02:16 AM

My only problem with Returns was Penguin's characterization. I really enjoyed Devito's performance, but I wish that he would have been a regular mobster...not something with webbed fingers that ate fish.

My only problem with the movie was the penguins with rocket launchers. I love the visuals, the music, the duality between the three main characters, etc. But the penguins with rocket launchers are simply a WTF moment more appropriate for Schumacher's movies than Burton's IMHO.

GothamAlleys

07-11-2011, 07:06 AM

My only problem with the movie was the penguins with rocket launchers. I love the visuals, the music, the duality between the three main characters, etc. But the penguins with rocket launchers are simply a WTF moment more appropriate for Schumacher's movies than Burton's IMHO.

Well, that was something from the comic books tho

redfirebird2008

07-11-2011, 11:05 AM

Well, that was something from the comic books tho

Plenty of the crap in Batman & Robin is from the comics too. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

El Payaso

07-11-2011, 05:54 PM

I thought so. He was of a puppet of Max Schrek... even though he had the "master plan" to steal all the children that Max didn't seem to know about. I think Schreck was just overused. But they needed him as the foil for Catwoman (to create her) and as the guy who could bring Penguin out of the sewers and into the spotlight. Kind of a tricky thing to do, really.

Ah ok. I had misunderstood you.

GothamAlleys

07-11-2011, 11:38 PM

Plenty of the crap in Batman & Robin is from the comics too. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Absolutely. But most Bat fans are just obsessed with "its in the comics so its great and valid no matter what it is" and "it wasnt in the comics, its wrong and its not what should be in the movie no matter what it is or how good it is"

cryptic name

07-12-2011, 05:04 AM

So I've got kind of a weird question; does anybody know if there's deleted material in Batman Returns of the batmobile firing a kind of disc during any of it's scenes? the reason I ask is multi-layered, one is this mcdonalds commercial from the time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWK1HC8PjUw&playnext=1&list=PL0C3A106B109D69C8

it looks kind of weird, but it seems like an awful lot of trouble for mcdonalds to go through to sell a cup lid if it's not actually from the movie.
also, if anyone remembers the Batman Returns SNES game, you are firing discs out of the batmobile during that level.
so yeah, maybe I sound like an idiot, but I find it fascinating that there could be something from the Burton batflicks that I was unaware of, seeing as how I don't think the footage is on any of the dvd or blu ray releases and i've just sort of happened upon it.

Elevator Man

07-12-2011, 08:54 AM

I wish I had those cups. And that shot of Batman running as he transforms into a drawing on one of the cups was cool. It would've been even cooler if that shot (of him running) was in the movie.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

07-12-2011, 09:29 AM

little batarang discs shot out of the batmobile in the beginning of BR at the skull headed motorcycle thugs.

akfj

07-12-2011, 11:57 AM

cryptic name

07-12-2011, 05:36 PM

little batarang discs shot out of the batmobile in the beginning of BR at the skull headed motorcycle thugs.

That's what I'm wondering. It doesn't actually happen in the movie, though. He knocks the one motorcycle guy off his bike with that flat piece that swings open on the side of the car, and backhands another one after he gets out to save selina from the clown with the taser.

DaRkVeNgeanCe

07-12-2011, 07:16 PM

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the extras or the comic for BR they explain that they are actually batarang discs that fly out when those openings are opened up if you look closely and slow down the film I think I can see it.

returntovoid

07-13-2011, 05:51 AM

If they made a sequel to BR, I think it should have been loosely based on The Dark Knight Returns. Batman retires for 3 years since the end of BR.

The Joker

07-15-2011, 10:42 AM

If they made a sequel they should have addressed how Batman got out of the frame up for the Ice Princess' murder.

Batman Forever just seemed to gloss over that.

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-15-2011, 11:10 AM

If they made a sequel they should have addressed how Batman got out of the frame up for the Ice Princess' murder.

Batman Forever just seemed to gloss over that.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view2/1414834/joker-not-sure-if-serious-o.gif

The Joker

07-15-2011, 11:12 AM

I'm confused by what you're trying to say with that?

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-15-2011, 11:16 AM

Im confused on whether or not your previous post was serious...

The Joker

07-15-2011, 11:26 AM

It was serious. returntovoid was talking about it they had made a sequel to Batman Returns, what they should do with it.

GothamAlleys

07-15-2011, 11:30 AM

Mister Meddle

07-15-2011, 12:08 PM

I'm actually working on a graphic novel that's inspired by the Burton-Two. It's supposed to be the story that takes place after Batman Returns. Pieces of the story are picked up from rumored ideas from Batman Returns and it's possible sequel. The death of the Ice Princess will be addressed. I know it's a cheap plug but I just wanted to say something. More information, including the logo & art, can be found here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=357911

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-15-2011, 05:29 PM

Im with Joker on that one. Its like if The Dark Knight Rises would completely ignore the framing aspect of The Dark Knight story. There was such a great story and potential in continuing this storyline of Batman seen as enemy and Forever ignored it completely

Tim Burton ignored his previous continuity with Returns... apart from a few cheap Vicki mentions.

Why should Forever... with a new vision mind you... be any different.

ALP

07-15-2011, 07:28 PM

Exactly. Batman Forever was a loose sequel at most. It's as moot as asking why Schumacher didn't explain why Gotham went from being bleak to being filled with neon. And on another level, it is something that could be left up to a comic tie in. BF didn't take place exactly after BR. Lots of things could have happened between the few years of the films(trying to rationalize it).

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-15-2011, 07:37 PM

Exactly... minus Pat Hingle and Michael Gough its almost a complete reboot.

WB wanted to quickly move on from Returns... so why on earth would they wish to bring any dangling plot points over.

The Burton/Shumacher series isn't continuity ridden... its just a series of episodes in Batman's life.

The Joker

07-15-2011, 07:47 PM

Pfeiffer-Pfan

07-15-2011, 07:50 PM

Didn't Tim Burton himself say he wouldn't really consider Returns a sequel...

I'm sure I read that somewhere.

JohnnyGobbs

07-15-2011, 07:56 PM

Batman was framed for murder and it was never rectified in Returns. That's a major plot point. It shouldn't have been ignored. They can slip in a reference about Batman liking strong women in skin tight vinyl and a whip but they can't mention how he got cleared of murder?

I don't know if it was such a major loose end as such. I always figured that The Red Trinagle Circus Gang members apprehended by Batman, during the kidnapping of the children, could quite easily have cleared Batman for the kidnap and murder of The Ice Princess, especially if there was any chance of a plea bargain for a lesser sentence. That's assuming Batman didn't kill the Organ Grinder etc like he apparently did with the Strong Man...:whatever:

The Joker

07-15-2011, 07:58 PM

I don't know if it was such a major loose end as such. I always figured that The Red Trinagle Circus Gang members apprehended by Batman, during the kidnapping of the children, could quite easily have cleared Batman for the kidnap and murder of The Ice Princess, especially if there was any chance of a plea bargain for a lesser sentence. That's assuming Batman didn't kill the Organ Grinder etc like he apparently did with the Strong Man...:whatever:

Nice theory but it is just baseless speculation. I didn't see the other Red Triangle members who got caught in the first and second attack on Gotham selling out Penguin for a lighter sentence. So why should they save Batman's bacon?

Didn't Tim Burton himself say he wouldn't really consider Returns a sequel...

I sure I read that somewhere.

He did. But read how he worded it:

"Batman Returns is not really a sequel to Batman. It doesn't pick up where the first film left off . . . The point was to make it all feel fresh and new."

http://imaginarycinema.com/bat2.html

How many sequels pick up where the last movie left off? I can only think of one off the top of my head and that's Halloween II. So I don't know where he's getting that logic from. A movie doesn't have to pick up from where the last one left off to be a sequel.

ALP

07-15-2011, 08:14 PM

It's not almost a complete reboot just because there's a new Batman and a new tone and visuals.

Batman 1989 and Batman Returns look and feel very different. Gotham City is different. Wayne Manor is different. The Batcave is different. Batman's got a new suit. Returns is way darker in tone. But it's still a sequel to Batman 1989. It's just that Batman 1989 didn't leave any lingering plots to be dealt with other than Bruce being with Vicki which was covered in his conversation with Selina.

Batman was framed for murder and it was never rectified in Returns. That's a major plot point. It shouldn't have been ignored. They can slip in a reference about Batman liking strong women in skin tight vinyl and a whip but they can't mention how he got cleared of murder?

In that case, it's a problem within Returns. I'm sure it's been mentioned before but we see the Batsignal turn on at the end of BR. Why would Gordon and the cops turn on the batsignal if Batman is wanted for murder (and reckless driving)?

And that reminds me of the same scene when we see Catwoman. So did she survive that ending with Shreck!? I've honestly always just seen that scene as Burton just screwing with us, inserting whatever he wanted to in the movie. And for the sake of it, the camera is panning up buildings and Catwoman just appears out of nowhere... is she floating in the air!? I believe someone from the movie even questioned this, saying it made no sense.

Mister Meddle

07-15-2011, 08:20 PM

The Joker

07-15-2011, 08:20 PM

I think Gordon knew that Batman didn't push the Ice Princess. When you think of it, how can anyone prove it? Sure it looked like it but no one witnessed Batman actually pushing her. Awhile ago someone mentioned that in the script it says something like the Mayor asks Gordon if "he" will forgive them.

Everyone in Gotham Square thought they saw him push her. Then five minutes later he's seen getting into his Batmobile which then goes on a wreckless joy ride through Gotham mowing down citizens and Police cars.

Batman's name was mud.

In that case, it's a problem within Returns. I'm sure it's been mentioned before but we see the Batsignal turn on at the end of BR. Why would Gordon and the cops turn on the batsignal if Batman is wanted for murder (and reckless driving)?

That was a goof.

And that reminds me of the same scene when we see Catwoman. So did she survive that ending with Shreck!? I've honestly always just seen that scene as Burton just screwing with us, inserting whatever he wanted to in the movie. And for the sake of it, the camera is panning up buildings and Catwoman just appears out of nowhere... is she floating in the air!? I believe someone from the movie even questioned this, saying it made no sense.

But wasn't that scene shoe horned in at the last minute by WB to show Catwoman is alive?

Wasn't Burton toying with the idea to do a Catwoman spin off?

ALP

07-15-2011, 08:57 PM

I have heard about Burton possibly doing a Catwoman spin off during that time. I'm glad it didn't happen though. I think she works best as a supporting character in Batman than on her own. I did not know WB wanted that scene though.

JohnnyGobbs

07-15-2011, 09:21 PM

Nice theory but it is just baseless speculation. I didn't see the other Red Triangle members who got caught in the first and second attack on Gotham selling out Penguin for a lighter sentence. So why should they save Batman's bacon?

The police didn't know that The Penguin existed after the first attack, and thought Oswald Cobblepot was Gotham's new hero after the second attack so they had no reason to do a deal with The Triangle Gang. By the time they were caught for attempting to kidnap and kill children they were looking at an attempted murder rap so the stakes were much higher, plus Gordon presumably knew Batman was innocent and may have decided to get the truth out of the gang in exchange for lower sentences. Sure it's speculation but it makes perfect sense to me.

Anyway, why would the public think Batman killed The Ice Princess to begin with? Once the truth came out I'm sure they'd find it easier to believe Batman was framed and that this was a part of the now exposed Penguin's master plan to defraud Gotham City.

Another thing, many of the goons during the initial attack on Gotham may just have been hired thugs and not close members of The Penguin's 'inner circle'. After all, we only ever see a small group, including The Organ Grinder and The Poodle Lady, with The Penguin. The few that were caught after the first attack on the tree-lighting ceremony (and it was probably only a few, including the clown who seized Selina Kyle and was eventually knocked out by Batman) might not even have met or known about The Penguin.

GothamAlleys

07-15-2011, 09:36 PM

As Joker already said, not only Batman was on the rooftop seen by an entire crowd, in the very spot where the Princess just fell from, not only did the bats attack the crowd but also cops and the crowd actually saw Batman getting into the Batmobile and then going on this killing spree. To believe that after seeing all this crowd would assume that Batmobile was remotely controled by someone else is silly and way too much of a stretch to believe they would deduce/suspect and believe that scenario. Entire crowds saw Batman put in such situations that theres no doubt in their mind that he got mad, getting into Batmobile (like in TDK cops seeing him getting on the Batpod). And again, as Joker already said too, the last scene was added in the very last minute and was just a visual ending more than anything, so I wouldnt focus on the Bat signal thing at the end as much

And some seem to have misunderstood my point. Im not saying Forever has to answer what happened (although it wouldve been nice since, again, its like TDKR ignoring the same situation from TDK), but Im saying that its wasting a very interesting story, which now will be told in TDKR, which is dealing with Batman who is seen by Gotham as a murderer and lunatic who went mad, with only Gordon knowing (or in the case of Returns suspecting) otherwise

The Joker

07-15-2011, 09:45 PM

The police didn't know that The Penguin existed after the first attack

And what was preventing the Circus gang from telling the Cops about him and where they can find him?

and thought Oswald Cobblepot was Gotham's new hero after the second attack

That still wouldn't stop them from proving they work for him. And they could prove it.

By the time they were caught for attempting to kidnap and kill children they were looking at an attempted murder rap so the stakes were much higher

There was enough counts of criminal assault and damage against them to get them a hundred years in jail before this. Not to mention they did kill many of Gotham's citizens in their attacks. They blew up several shops with people inside. LOL the poodle even went into a cafe with a grenade in it's mouth. You even saw one citizen on fire in the first attack.

plus Gordon presumably knew Batman was innocent and may have decided to get the truth out of the gang in exchange for lower sentences. Sure it's speculation but it makes perfect sense to me.

Two things:

1. As I've already established these guys were already facing murder charges. Criminal damages. Multiple assaults. Attempted murder. Not even Gordon could get them off easy on that list of charges in exchange for helping a masked vigilante.

2. What even makes you think the Red Triangle gang would sell Penguin out?

Anyway, why would the public think Batman killed The Ice Princess to begin with?

All they know about Batman is that he's a masked vigilante who likes to beat up and murder criminals. He's a man who dresses up as a bat. He's not going to be viewed as some kind of sane or stable person.

Plus they all saw him do it, or they thought they saw him do it. Then they get attacked by a swarm of bats. Then 5 minutes later an angry crowd of cops and citizens see him getting into his Batmobile and then he goes on a joyride mowing down citizens and plowing through cop cars and civilian cars.

Once the truth came out I'm sure they'd find it easier to believe Batman was framed and that this was a part of the now exposed Penguin's master plan to defraud Gotham City.

Without proof of any of that it's only hearsay.

Another thing, many of the goons during the initial attack on Gotham may just have been hired thugs and not close members of The Penguin's 'inner circle'.

Again baseless speculation on your part. I can't debate with something that is just totally unfounded.

After all, we only ever see a small group, including The Organ Grinder and The Poodle Lady, with The Penguin.

That doesn't mean diddly squat. We predominately only ever saw Bob and two or three others around Joker most of the time in Batman 1989. But when it came to the action scenes he had lots of men at his disposal.

They were not going to over crowd Penguin's cool hideouts with crowds of clown thugs. Only a select few were needed to show they're his gang.

he few that were caught after the first attack on the tree-lighting ceremony (and it was probably only a few, including the clown who seized Selina Kyle and was eventually knocked out by Batman) might not even have met or known about The Penguin.

More baseless speculation. I can only go by what the movie showed us and told us. What we're told is that these guys are the Red Triangle gang. They have an ugly history of being involved in child disappearances. The Penguin controls them. He uses them when ever he needs them. There's no reason to believe why they never met the Penguin.

Batman took down several of the gang in that first attack including stilt walkers, bikers, clowns and that guy who tried to taze Selina.

JohnnyGobbs

07-15-2011, 11:04 PM

And what was preventing the Circus gang from telling the Cops about him and where they can find him? But why would they at this stage? The cops didn't know about The Penguin so there's no reason to offer any kind of deal. Plus, at this point all they were looking at was criminal damage and assault. If they had given away The Penguin's whereabouts they would have led the police to further indictable criminal activity including conspiracy, and plans to murder Gotham's first-born children. It wouldn't have been in their interest to give anything away at this stage.

There was enough counts of criminal assault and damage against them to get them a hundred years in jail before this. Not to mention they did kill many of Gotham's citizens in their attacks. They blew up several shops with people inside. LOL the poodle even went into a cafe with a grenade in it's mouth. You even saw one citizen on fire in the first attack. We don't see them kill anybody. It was apparently very late at night (Shreck's Department Store was already closed), so why would any of the other shops be open? It's more likely that they were empty and the gang were responsible for criminal damage rather than murder. We do see them beat up on a shop-keeper but nothing that would cause the poor man to die. Apart from that I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that they killed anyone during this attack.

Two things:

1. As I've already established these guys were already facing murder charges. Criminal damages. Multiple assaults. Attempted murder. Not even Gordon could get them off easy on that list of charges in exchange for helping a masked vigilante.

2. What even makes you think the Red Triangle gang would sell Penguin out?

Firstly, I'm still not sure where you have got these multiple murder charges from. We don't see the Circus Gang kill anyone. Plus, even if some of the apprehended gang were guilty of murder that doesn't mean all of them were looking at murder charges. Sure, all of them were looking at large sentences, but primarily as accessories to The Penguin's crimes.

Criminals cut deals all the time. Even criminals facing murder charges especially if they commit their crimes within a state that still carries the death sentence. If Gordon was so adamant that Batman was guilty, and bearing in mind he was Gotham's senior police officer, he would surely be able to find an angle that would clear Batman, especially if he had a sympathetic DA on his side (i.e. Harvey Dent - yes, I know we don't see him in Returns, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist).

As for why I believe The Red Circus Triangle Gang would sell The Penguin out. Simple. We see the remianing members of the gang quite happily abandon The Penguin when it's finally clear Batman is going to foil his plans. They evidently weren't as loyal as you seem to be suggesting, and if it was the choice between a particularly long sentence and ratting out their boss, who is in anycase in all probability dead by the time the police interrogate them, it's not much of a choice. Why would they be loyal to a dead man (especially one they were so willing to abandon when things went pear-shaped)?

All they know about Batman is that he's a masked vigilante who likes to beat up and murder criminals. He's a man who dresses up as a bat. He's not going to be viewed as some kind of sane or stable person. Gotham has happily accepted Batman as their saviour for what is probably a good few years after the events of the first movie. Like you say, he beats up and yes, occasionally kills criminals. That doesn't suggest that he goes around kidnapping and then pushing innocent beauty queens off tall buildings. Would you believe it if say, Dirty Harry went around murdering innocent people? He has beaten up and killed at least as many criminals as Batman.

Plus they all saw him do it, or they thought they saw him do it. Then they get attacked by a swarm of bats. Then 5 minutes later an angry crowd of cops and citizens see him getting into his Batmobile and then he goes on a joyride mowing down citizens and plowing through cop cars and civilian cars. The Gotham public were a fickle crowd, and at the time of the Ice Princess' death all the apparent evidence did indicate that Batman had pushed her off the roof. However, once the realisation that The Penguin was a crook came to light (i.e. they all heard him say he'd 'played Gotham like a harp from hell' - what do you suppose that must have meant?), it wouldn't be too difficult to put two and two together and establish that he was guilty for the previous night's events. Not Batman.

After all, what have they really got to go on? Some loud mouth claims he saw Batman push the Ice Princess off the roof, and the fact that bats came out of the tree must automatically mean Batman is responsible...

That doesn't mean diddly squat. We predominately only ever saw Bob and two or three others around Joker most of the time in Batman 1989. But when it came to the action scenes he had lots of men at his disposal. NO, The Joker's gang was generally much smaller. The same actors appeared beside him in most of the action scenes. Only Bob and Lawrence, the big, bald guy had any extra screentime with him, probably because Bob was his de facto Lieutenant and Lawrence was a particularly loyal and handy member to have around at all times.

More baseless speculation. I can only go by what the movie showed us and told us. What we're told is that these guys are the Red Triangle gang. They have an ugly history of being involved in child disappearances. The Penguin controls them. He uses them when ever he needs them. There's no reason to believe why they never met the Penguin. Now you're just arguing for the sake of it because I can easily turn your argument around and say that since the movie doesn't show us certain members hanging around The Penguin there is no reason to believe they are close members of his gang.

Batman took down several of the gang in that first attack including stilt walkers, bikers, clowns and that guy who tried to taze Selina. Sure, but we don't see any of them get arrested. The guy who tried to taze Selina was almost certainly arrested since he was knocked out and down for the count, but we don't see anyone else knocked out. For all we know the majority of them could have got away. The Organ Grinder, Sword-Swallower and Indian Head-dress woman, all of whom were present at the first tree-lighting riot, certainly got away because we see them in later scenes.

Another thing, just because we see the Bat-signal lit up at the end of the film doesn't even mean that Batman has been cleared at this stage. For all we know, Gordon could be trying to contact Batman for questioning. Since Gordon clearly trusts Batman, he probably thinks Batman will voluntarily come in himself to try and clear his name.

In any case, I don't think we can take any thing for granted with this film. A lot of the plot is purposefully ambiguous.

GothamAlleys

07-15-2011, 11:20 PM

ALP

07-15-2011, 11:22 PM

Luckily in Forever they all love Batman and happily scream his name when he drops in from the roof.

JohnnyGobbs

07-15-2011, 11:39 PM

I dont know why the realization that Penguin is a villain would in any way lead people that with some miracle Batman is innocent, when people saw him flying above them after the bat attacks and getting into Batmobile that started driving over people.For all I know Gotham will now be even more wary of their heores after Penguin appeared to be a criminal and Batman attacked the citizens The public heard The Penguin say 'I've played this city like a stinking hard from hell' etc, before turning on him. What did they think he meant when he said that? Obviously they got the impression he'd been up to no good, otherwise it's just a load of meaningless words.

I find it hard to believe that Gotham would still consider Batman to be a killer of innocent people, particularly on the basis of such flimsy evidence, when he later saved their children from being drowned from The Penguin, not to mention stopped The Penguin from blowing up the entire city.

Sure they saw him drive away from the scene of a crime. But when a mob of angry citizens start turning on you for an apparent crime you didn't commit, you and I would probably do the same thing.

Any half-decent criminal investigation would have cleared Batman of the crimes that were pinned against him, especially once it was clear that The Penguin had the means to plant the tree with bats. Also, are you sure that someone wouldn't have discovered the mini-Batmobile linked to the real thing once The Penguin had been exposed as a criminal? An investigation into The Penguin's hideout and 'campaign van' once The Penguin had been outed as a villain would prove to be a veritable treasure-trove of evidence, all of which would easily have led to Batman's exoneration. It may have taken a while, but honestly I don't see how there could have been any doubt about Batman's innocence once the various possible pieces of evidence stacked up against The Penguin and his henchmen and women. Like Gordon said, all the police had against Batman was essentially 'circumstantial evidence'.

Not really, not according to Burton. Burton said in Returns' commentary that people in Returns are actually scared of Batman and avoid him This I do agree with, but it doesn't really contradict the main thrust of my argument with respect to the evidence, nor does it really give any credit to the conceit of Batman killing an entirely innocent woman when he had thus far only tackled or killed criminals.

The Joker

07-15-2011, 11:58 PM

But why would they at this stage? The cops didn't know about The Penguin so there's no reason to offer any kind of deal.

Yes, there is if the Cops want to find out where the rest of the gang is and who they are working for. Someone put them up to it.

Plus, at this point all they were looking at was criminal damage and assault.

No, they were also up on murder charges.

If they had given away The Penguin's whereabouts they would have led the police to further indictable criminal activity including conspiracy, and plans to murder Gotham's first-born children.

No, they wouldn't since Penguin had not even put that plan down on paper yet. He had not gotten access to the Hall of Records after the first attack.

We don't see them kill anybody. It was apparently very late at night (Shreck's Department Store was already closed), so why would any of the other shops be open? It's more likely that they were empty and the gang were responsible for criminal damage rather than murder. We do see them beat up on a shop-keeper but nothing that would cause the poor man to die. Apart from that I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that they killed anyone during this attack.

Oh man, come on. You just said yourself you saw a shop keeper being attacked. What was a shop keeper doing in there if the store was closed? How did the poodle just walk into the cafe with the grenade unless it was open?

There was people present in all of these buildings that they blew up. Just because Schreck's was closed doesn't mean every where was. There's no universal hour for a close of business. Plus even if they had blown up Schreck's they would have killed the two security guards whom Catwoman had frightened off.

Make no mistake, they killed people. Many people.

Firstly, I'm still not sure where you have got these multiple murder charges from. We don't see the Circus Gang kill anyone.

Covered this above.

Plus, even if some of the apprehended gang were guilty of murder that doesn't mean all of them were looking at murder charges.

They would all be charged with murder because the it was a mass gang attack. The Cops can't be sure which specific ones blew up one store. They just know the circus gang was involved. They'd all be charged as one criminal conspiracy.

Criminals cut deals all the time. Even criminals facing murder charges especially if they commit their crimes within a state that still carries the death sentence.

And how do you know Gotham carries a death sentence for murder? In fact all evidence suggests it doesn't since none of them ratted Penguin out.

If Gordon was so adamant that Batman was guilty, and bearing in mind he was Gotham's senior police officer, he would surely be able to find an angle that would clear Batman, especially if he had a sympathetic DA on his side (i.e. Harvey Dent - yes, I know we don't see him in Returns, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist).

Whether Gordon believed Batman was guilty or not was irrelevant. Without a shred of proof to clear him he's got nothing.

What he has got is evidence against Batman like the batarang and the eye witness accounts.

And you think Gordon is going to make some sort of case to prove Batman is innocent by getting the circus gang to squeal on Penguin just to clear a vigilante whom he already allows to go around killing criminals anyway?

As for why I believe The Red Circus Triangle Gang would sell The Penguin out. Simple. We see the remianing members of the gang quite happily abandon The Penguin when it's finally clear Batman is going to foil his plans.

That was a simple case of they don't have a hope in hell of beating Batman so lets get the hell out of here before he arrives. They already saw he was coming in something very large and fast.

What were they going to do? He's whupped their butts twice already. Did you think the skeleton crew of clowns Pengy had left were going to be able to take him on? Even Penguin was bricking it.

Gotham has happily accepted Batman as their saviour for what is probably a good few years after the events of the first movie. Like you say, he beats up and yes, occasionally kills criminals. That doesn't suggest that he goes around kidnapping and then pushing innocent beauty queens off tall buildings.

Oh yes it does. If a man who's chosen to hide his identity and willingly kill criminals pushed a beauty queen off a roof, why would that be so hard to believe?

It's a murdering vigilante dressed up as a bat whom Gotham don't know diddly squat about personally. Anything is possible with an individual like that.

Would you believe it if say, Dirty Harry went around murdering innocent people? He has beaten up and killed at least as many criminals as Batman.

Dirty Harry is a well known figure with an identity and a past and probably a psychological profile done on him, too. He's not a mysterious figure people have clue who he is and he doesn't operate outside the law.

The Gotham public were a fickle crowd, and at the time of the Ice Princess' death all the apparent evidence did indicate that Batman had pushed her off the roof. However, once the realisation that The Penguin was a crook came to light (i.e. they all heard him say he'd 'played Gotham like a harp from hell' - what do you suppose that must have meant?), it wouldn't be too difficult to put two and two together and establish that he was guilty for the previous night's events. Not Batman.

And why on earth should they come to that conclusion? Penguin wasn't seen anywhere near the scenes of these events. Neither was the Red Triangle gang come to that. Nobody was except Batman.

Only Batman was found on the roof by the Cops where the Ice Princess fell. Only Batman was seen getting into the Batmobile before it went on it's reckless joyride.

How could anyone connect any of this to Penguin or his circus gang? Even Catwoman couldn't be implicated in the Ice Princess kidnapping. Only Batman saw her.

After all, what have they really got to go on? Some loud mouth claims he saw Batman push the Ice Princess off the roof, and the fact that bats came out of the tree must automatically mean Batman is responsible...

It wasn't just one loud mouth, they were all looking up when it happened, just one citizen shouted out what Batman did.

And yes, the bats certainly implicate him as using them as a diversion while he escaped.

NO, The Joker's gang was generally much smaller. The same actors appeared beside him in most of the action scenes. Only Bob and Lawrence, the big, bald guy had any extra screentime with him, probably because Bob was his de facto Lieutenant and Lawrence was a particularly loyal and handy member to have around at all times.

Really? So lets take into account all the goons Joker had with him at the parade including the ones Batman gunned down, then the ones he conveniently had up in the church tower, then the ones he had come collect him in the helicopter.

You're trying to tell me his gang was small just because he kept a small handful around him?

Now you're just arguing for the sake of it because I can easily turn your argument around and say that since the movie doesn't show us certain members hanging around The Penguin there is no reason to believe they are close members of his gang.

You couldn't argue any such thing because you've got no basis for that argument. I, on the other hand, have the facts I quoted you above from the movie to support mine.

Unless you think Gotham's generic thugs are experts at juggling, walking on stilts, riding unicycles and blowing fire etc. because I didn't see them hanging around in Penguin's lair.

Sure, but we don't see any of them get arrested.

Did you really need to see the Police slapping the cuffs on them to know they got arrested? What did you think they did with all those beaten clowns, gave them a good talking to and sent them on their way? :cwink:

The guy who tried to taze Selina was almost certainly arrested since he was knocked out and down for the count, but we don't see anyone else knocked out. For all we know the majority of them could have got away. The Organ Grinder, Sword-Swallower and Indian Head-dress woman, all of whom were present at the first tree-lighting riot, certainly got away because we see them in later scenes.

They got away because none of them had a run in with Batman. Keep in mind all this happens in less than five minutes. Batman comes in, takes out stilt walkers, bikers, gun clowns. This all happens in under two minutes. Then he toasts the fire clown and rescues Selina. Right after Selina is saved you hear the Cop sirens and Gordon and his men are on the scene.

You're not trying to tell me all those guys Batman beat all managed to get up and clear out in that short time, are you?

There's a reason we never see the stilt walkers and bikers again in the second attack.

Another thing, just because we see the Bat-signal lit up at the end of the film doesn't even mean that Batman has been cleared at this stage. For all we know, Gordon could be trying to contact Batman for questioning. Since Gordon clearly trusts Batman, he probably thinks Batman will voluntarily come in himself to try and clear his name.

How dumb would Batman be to go to Police HQ voluntarily when he's wanted for murder? If that's what Gordon was doing, then he's an idiot. Batman was never going to come when he was a wanted man by them.

JohnnyGobbs

07-16-2011, 10:39 AM

As far as I'm concerned my point is as simple as the following questions and their obvious answers should suggest:

Did Batman stop the Red Triangle Circus Gang from kidnapping Gotham's first-born sons?

If the answer is yes, move onto to the next question...

Is it likely that some, if not all, of The Red Triangle Circus Gang members stopped by Batman were apprehended by the police?

If the answer is yes, move onto the next question...

Is it likely that the police would have questioned the various members of The Red Triangle Circus Gang regarding The Penguin's various activities (especially since the link between them and The Penguin was now incontrovertible seeing as The Penguin had publically announced his plans to capture and kill the first-born sons at Max Shreck's party)?

If the answer is yes, move onto the next question...

Is It highly possible that Commissioner Gordon, Gotham's highest ranking plice officer and a man who clearly had doubts about Batman's part in The Ice Princess' kidnap and murder (having stated that the batarang was merely 'circumstantial evidence', and having stopped his men from firing at Batman when they were on the roof), would have sought confessions from The Red Triangle Circus Gang exonerating Batman of his alleged crimes?

Furthermore, is it also not highly possible that Commissioner Gordon would question Batman's alleged part in an innocent woman's death bearing in mind this was the first time Batman had ever been linked with such a random crime?

Would Batman's other recent actions, including saving Gotham's first-born sons from drowning and stopping The Penguin from blasting all of Gotham to hell not seem to conflict with his alleged murder of The Ice Princess, and wouldn't the police therefore have a duty to investigate further before pinning the crime on Batman on the basis of circumstantial evidence (and Batman's presence at the scene of the crime is circumstantial until any more compelling evidence can be uncovered linking Batman to the alleged crime)? Wouldn't the police be duty-bound to consider what Batman's motive was for killing The Ice Princess bearing in mind he had done nothing as crazy or unfathonable before or since her death?

If the answers to all or even most of these questions is yes the overwhelming likilhood is that Batman would have been eventually cleared of murder, regardless of what a few mistaken eyewitnesses claim they saw occurring on a roof 100 feet or so above their vantage point.

As for some of your arguments The Joker...

Yes, there is if the Cops want to find out where the rest of the gang is and who they are working for. Someone put them up to it. That may have been the case, and could even be considered to be a plothole (even as a fan of the film I won't pretend this film contains more than its fair share of these). However, whether The Red Triangle Circus Gang did or did not buckle under pressure to give up there boss' identity at this stage has little bearing on whether they'd do the same later on once it became clear who their boss was and what he had been up to. Not to mention, their supposed (but IMHO questionable) loyalty to The Penguin would have been a moot point once their boss was dead. By that stage it would make little to no sense for them to remian loyal to The Penguin bearing in mind the stack of evidence against them.

No, they were also up on murder charges. With all due respect, you have accused me of speculation but a number of the points you make including this one, is pure speculation. Unless we saw the circus gang kill anyone and I maintain that we didn't, although it's clear that a number of the gang who had evaded arrest until the end were going to be indicted with attempted murder for their part in the kidnapping of the first-born sons, I don't see how anyone can state with any certainty that they were going to be indicted with murder charges.

Your belief makes little to no sense bearing in mind that the murder of various Gotham citizens would surely have merited front-page news on the covers of Gotham's various newspapers, and yet headlines like 'ME-OUCH' and 'Batman Blows It' seem to focus entirely on the millions of dollars of structural damage sustained against its various shops and properties. Since when has damage to a few shops taken precedence in the news over mass killings? No doubt you will argue this point as well as you strike me as the type of person who won't back down in an argument but I'd have more respect if you'd concede this point since does not seem particularly arguable to me.

No, they wouldn't since Penguin had not even put that plan down on paper yet. He had not gotten access to the Hall of Records after the first attack. So what if he hadn't yet gotten access to the Hall of Records? That was his intention in ascending to the surface. He surely would have included his gang members in his masterplan which was always to kill Gotham's first-born children, NOT to become Mayor, which was merely a side-issue cooked up by Max Shreck.

Oh man, come on. You just said yourself you saw a shop keeper being attacked. What was a shop keeper doing in there if the store was closed? How did the poodle just walk into the cafe with the grenade unless it was open? I've already addressed this point, but if you're going to be pedantic...the shop-keeper I was referring to seemed to be an unfortunate victim of what looked like 'happy-slapping'. Sure, it can very, very occasionally result in someone's death but that's hardly ever the case. In fact, the clowns slapping the shopkeeper on the head was almost comical in how relatively tame it appeared. I think the gang merely wanted to create as much chaos as possible. If they really wanted to kill anyone they would have pushed the shopkeeper to the ground and then proceeded to kick the proverbial out of him, or even simpler, just have shot him with one of the various weapons at their disposal.

The shopkeeper probably lived above the shop, although it may also have been a 24-hour convenience store. However, it appeared quite clear to me thata the attack occurred late at night. We even see a clock a couple of scenes later indicating that the gang's rampage took place during the late hours of the night/early hours of the morning.

As for how the poodle got into the store, admittedly that may be a plothole but since we don't see any customers in the restaurant, nor even any lights on, I refuse to believe it was open. The more likely possibility is that one of the circus thugs had already broken into the restaurant and absconded before the poodle could caus maximum damage with the grenade. Anyway, it was just a funny, cool looking shot. I don't think we're meant to take the whys and wherefores too seriously in this instance.

There was people present in all of these buildings that they blew up. Just because Schreck's was closed doesn't mean every where was. There's no universal hour for a close of business. Plus even if they had blown up Schreck's they would have killed the two security guards whom Catwoman had frightened off. I've answered this point above, but I will reiterate the most compelling point. If the gang had killed anyone in this attack it would be reasonable to assume that their deaths would have made front-page news and have been the focal-point of The Penguin's post-riot speech to the public. Instead, no mention was made of any casualties, although millions of dollars in property damage was cited.

Another thing, why would the circus gang blow up Shreck's Department Store? The point is The Penguin was working alongside Shreck so as far as his gang went that was a no-go zone. Therefore, there was no chance of them killing Shreck's security guards.

One final point here. Catwoman later demonstrates that she's not interested in killing innocent people; in fact it goes against her nature. Why would she then team up with The Penguin if she believed and understood him and his gang to be murderers? Your argument makes no sense. Bear in mind that when Catwoman teamed up with The Penguin she had no idea he was going to kill Gotham's first-born sons and simply believed his list to be an 'enemies list' ala Nixon.

Make no mistake, they killed people. Many people. If you believe that after what I would argue is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary that's your prerogative.

I like it when people are able to raise their hands up and say 'maybe I was wrong', or at least 'you have a point'. I do this whenever I believe someone has a strong argument. However, I suspect (although hope I am wrong) that you will maintain your stance and seek to argue these points however tenuous your arguments might be.

They would all be charged with murder because the it was a mass gang attack. The Cops can't be sure which specific ones blew up one store. They just know the circus gang was involved. They'd all be charged as one criminal conspiracy. They would not all be charged with murder. They'd be charged with criminal conspiracy sure, but this is not the same as a collective murder charge, unless it can be established that each member of the gang had a part in anyone person's killing.

Assuming anyone did commit murder in the first two attacks on Gotham, the nature of the rioting was so haphazard I can't see how anyone would come to the conclusion that there was an orchestrated plan to kill anyone. It would go completely against the interests of justice and a fair trial if the gang were to be indicted as one for any individual killing undertaken by one or more members of the gang.

And how do you know Gotham carries a death sentence for murder? In fact all evidence suggests it doesn't since none of them ratted Penguin out. I don't know. Neither do you. I never stated that I did. It was a minor point to underscore how useful a confession might be, but the stakes don't have to be quite as high as a death sentence. There are other bargaining 'chips' even for a crime as cut-and-dry as murder, or conspiracy to murder. Even if life-imprisonment was on the cards a deal for a particular prison might be made. It's also likely that some of the members of the gang involved in the kidnapping of the children could negotiate a lesser sentence as 'accessories' to kidnap etc.

Of course all this is pure speculation, but as my questions at the above of this post should illustrate, the overwhelming likelihood is that Gordon and his officers would have found some way of getting the truth out of one of the gang during routine questioning. It's very difficult in such circumstances involving multiple arrestees for everything to remain under wraps. That's just common-sense.

Whether Gordon believed Batman was guilty or not was irrelevant. Without a shred of proof to clear him he's got nothing.

What he has got is evidence against Batman, including:

- A blood stained batarang found in the Ice Princess' dressing room
- Hundreds of eye witness accounts of Batman pushing the Ice Princess
- More eye witness accounts of Batman getting into his Batmobile and trashing the city with it The first and second 'pieces of evidence' are purely circumstantial. A blood-stained batarang and Batman getting into his car to evade a mob of blood-thirsty members of the public mean nothing without any other overwhelming evidence.

Before anyone starts jumping to conclusions regarding the batarang who is to say that it even belongs to Batman in the first place?

I trust you've seen 12 Angry Men. I'm guessing you'd have been one of the ones on the jury voting 'guilty' on the basis of the knife and the fact that there couldn't be more than one such weapon.

And you think Gordon is going to make some sort of case to prove Batman is innocent by getting the circus gang to squeal on Penguin just to clear a vigilante whom he already allows to go around killing criminals anyway?

Without a motive, or any witnesses who clearly saw Batman oush the princess, and I'd argue that noone could clearly see what Batman had or had not done from one-hundred or so feet below, the evidence against Batman is pretty flimsy. I'd agree that the police would want to bring him in for questioning but if, as I suspect, Gordon was able to find evidence exonerating Batman, including possible confessions from The Penguin's gang and corrorobative evidence including the plans to the Batmobile inside The Penguin's lair, and The Penguin's campaign van and the mini-Batmobile, it wouldn't have been too difficult to establish a case against The Penguin which would in time, clear Batman from any intentional wrong-doing.

That was a simple case of they don't have a hope in hell of beating Batman so lets get the hell out of here before he arrives. They already saw he was coming in something very large and fast. The Penguin felt clearly betrayed by his gang's decision to abandon him. If they were as blindly loyal as you seem to suggest they are they would have stuck around until the end even if it meant having their asses whopped by Batman.

Also, your point applies to their arrests. Asuming the gang abandoned The Penguin because they didn't have a hope in hell of beating Batman, then it only stands to reason that they would try to cut a deal with the police if that was there 'only hope in hell' of a lengthy prison sentence.

Oh yes it does. If a man who's chosen to hide his identity and willingly kill criminals pushed a beauty queen off a roof, why would that be so hard to believe? He's killed criminals liked you state. NOT innocents. If we assume the same length of time has passed between the events of Batman and Batman Returns as the gap between the two movies' respective releases, and I see no reason to suspect otherwise, Batman has presumably been known to the public for approximately three years. In that time he haas apparently gained the trust of Commissioner Gordon and even the Mayor who we see casually chatting to him after the first Red Triangle Circus Gang attack on the city. Even if Batman was capable of randomly killing a beauty queen, it doesn't fit with everything the public knows about him, no matter how limited that might be. People would naturally be asking questions as to why Batman would do such a thing, and it's only reasonable that the issue of motive would need to be addressed before concluding that Batman did kill The Ice Princess without any shread of doubt.

Dirty Harry is a well known figure with an identity and a past and probably a psychological profile done on him, too. He's not a mysterious figure people have clue who he is and he doesn't operate outside the law. I haven't sen those films for a long time but I'm pretty sure he did operate outside the law, which is why he was in constant trouble with his superior officers and why in one instance he threw his badge away.

And why on earth should they come to that conclusion? Penguin wasn't seen anywhere near the scenes of these events. Neither was the Red Triangle gang come to that. Nobody was except Batman. To begin with I would agree that there was little reason to suspect The Penguin's involvement in The Ice Princess' murder, which is why I maintain that Gordon's dogged determinaton to establish the truth and not automatically assume that Batman was a killer for the flimsiest of reasons, plus the later revelations concerning The Penguin's manipulation of Gotham, hatred of Batman and various other plans to kill people, not to mention Batman's part in foiling those same plans, would surely have led to a thorough investigation.

I don't doubt for a moment that a cloud would always hang over Batman, even if he was exonerated of an innocent's murder, following the events of Batman Returns, and that the public and as a result, the plice, would be very wary of having anything to do with him once any degree of suspicion had fallen on him regarding a beloved figure's kidnap and death. However, I still maintain that as far as the law was concerned it wouldn't have been too difficult for the truth to emerge once Batman had foiled The Penguin and some arrests had been made.

In any case, I'm one of those people who don't consider Batman Forever to be a proper sequel to Batman Returns. I suspect that if the events of Batman Forever really did follow Batman Returns, we would be looking at a much more fractured relationship between Batman and the public/police, more on par with the type of relationship they shared during the first half of Batman where Batman was still regarded as a shadowy, somewhat untrustworthy individual and not one who could simply be summoned to action any time Gotham needed some help.

Really? So lets take into account all the goons Joker had with him at the parade including the ones Batman gunned down, then the ones he conveniently had up in the church tower, then the ones he had come collect him in the helicopter.

You're trying to tell me his gang was small just because he kept a small handful around him? Once again, this is a rather minor point which does little for either side of the argument, but I still maintain that The Joker's gang is much smaller than The Red Triangle Circus Gang. Apart from the black shade-wearing guy who knocks the crap out of Batman, the other two goons in the church tower were regularly seen with The Joker, including during the gallery scene. The goons in the helicopter were at the parade and were also sen in the gallery scene, and only a handful of other goons were killed at the parade.

JohnnyGobbs

07-16-2011, 10:41 AM

You couldn't argue any such thing because you've got no basis for that argument. I, on the other hand, have the facts I quoted you above from the movie to support mine. What facts? They seem less facts than personal observations and speculationl, which to be fair is also what I'm mainly going on. Please don't assert these as FACTS though since it only weakens your argument and gives the impression of unreasonability when as I state it's clear that much of what you have stated is pure speculation and assumption as well. At least I have provided a logical, coherent argument for my position based on various factors, speculation or not.

Oh for god's sake, man, did you really need to see the Police slapping the cuffs on them to know they got arrested? What did you think they did with all those beaten clowns, gave them a good talking to and sent them on their way? Weren't you the one who earlier stated that unles you see or are told somehing it's only speculation? Seems like that statement applies to the both of us...

I don't doubt for a moment that some of tha gang, at least the guy who apprehended Selina, were arrested during the first attack on the Plaza, but apart from that one guy we don't see any other thugs knocked out, and we certainly don't see any police officers make any arrests prior to Batman's exit. Since the gang's objective was always to cause maximum chaos and either capture Max Shreck or cause him to flee and then get captured, it's much more likely that the various members of the gang who attacked the Plaza fled as soon as Batman arrived, and that the ones who were beaten up by him also ran off as soon as they got off their asses.

You're not trying to tell me all those guys Batman beat all managed to get up and clear out in that short time, are you? Wny not? The film wasn't shot in 'real time'. They could quite easily have got away before the proper police arrived. Once Batman gets out of the Batmobile we only ever see him take on one thug, the guy who manhandled Selina. During this encounter it seems like the various thugs have fled the scene.

I have watched the film several times and I don't recall hearing any police sirens, although assuming you're right, and it's a fair point, the gang could easily have fled before the police got to the plaza since they already seemed to have dispersed by the time Batman has knocked out the one thug.

There's a reason we never see the stilt walkers and bikers again in the second attack. Yes, because the action didn't require them. How cumbersome is it going to be for stilt walkers and bikers to enter shops and beat up random shop-keepers etc? They were more effectiveduring the initial attack on the Plaza since that attack was taking place inn a much more open environment.

How dumb would Batman be to go to Police HQ voluntarily when he's wanted for murder? If that's what Gordon was doing, then he's an idiot. Batman was never going to come when he was a wanted man by them. I never said Batman would voluntarily turn himself in did I? However, if Gordon trusts Batman, and all evidence indicates that he does, he would surely want to get in touch with him, and how else is he going to do that? It's a criticism of the film that I will readily accept and you no doubt harbour, that Gordon and Batman's relationship was never as developed as deeply as it should have been. However, whatever the film's shortcomings there is no reason to believe that Batman and Gordon don't enjoy the same relationship they do in the Nolan films even if we don't see it.

I have no idea who controls the Bat-signal in Batman Returns but comic-lore not to mention Schumacher and Nolan's entirely independent Batman-movies might suggest Gordon is primarily responsible for it. It's not stupid to think that Gordon would wish to speak to Batman one-to-one to try and get to the bottom of what happened. If Batman heard Gordon tell his men to stop firing during the rooftop scene Batman may even be well aware that Gordon is sympathetic and that his trust might be in Batman's best interest.

The Joker

07-16-2011, 11:24 AM

JohnnyGobbs

07-16-2011, 11:53 AM

JohnnyGobbs, I'm not going to go through all of that again to just essentially repeat what I've already said to you twice already now.

If you want to believe some unfounded notion that Batman got cleared off screen by the Red Triangle gang then go for it. I don't write off such major plot points based on nothing. Good movies don't do that. Which is why I suspect it was going to be left for the next movie to be addressed. But the backlash Returns got put an end to that. By all means rubbish the film. I don't have a problem with you having a negative opinion about the film, but when people try and make unfounded claims based on little to no evidence, or rubbish perfectly reasonable arguments by people who d like the film I do question their agenda.

You can't even seem to acknowledge the basics shown in the movie without conjuring up your own unfounded what ifs. Case in point, the whole Red Triangle gang actually killing people during their attacks like in the cafe bombing. You make up some notion that because you don't see any customers in it that it was deserted. The door was open. The lights were on. No sign it was broken into. There was undoubtedly some people in there, staff at the very least:

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff398/myscans1/cafe.jpg This is laughable! You've failed to address all my other points and instead give me a screencap of a clearly empty cafe with outside lights illuminating the interior. There's nobody in there for goodness sake! Plus there are no inside lights on. LOL! :woot: Priceless!

Thanks for the laugh though mate! I appreciate it.

Even your other points like Batman stopping the Penguin from destroying the city has no basis because how is anyone going to know Batman did that? It was all done through the Batcave. Who else could have stopped The Penguin from blowing up Gotham or indeed kidnapping the children and drowning them? Some other masked vigilante with hi-tech devices at their exposal that Gotham doesn't yet know about? It certainly wasn't the police, and as far as whether Batman is guilty for murder or not, they are the only ones that count unless someone tries to bring a private prosecution, which is admittedly a possibility.

I can't debate with someone who can't even acknowledge the basics. No offense.

Peace out. I went to very conscientious detail to address all your points offering many, many arguments you have failed to acknowledge and therefore, rebut. I can only conclude that you are unable to satisfactorily address these points which is fine. I don't hold that against you at all, but to lack the humility to either admit that or to shrug off my lengthy and forensic arguments by suggesting that I 'can't even ackowledge the basics' takes such chutzpah.

No probs. I've made my point. If you don't accept them that's fine. I hope others on this board will be more receptive, or at least willing to engage in reasoned discussion if they don't agree. Besides, a hardened Batman Returns hater (and judging by the tone and style of your post I believe I have encountered you elsewhere on this topic) is going to take such an antagonistic position on this film no matter what. It's a pity because if you are who I think you are we generally get along much better on another forum. Apologies however if this is a case of mistaken identity.

ALP

07-16-2011, 12:13 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Joker in that you can't just rely on unfounded speculation to provide an answer. The film does not address Batman's name being cleared. Had Burton did a third film it would have been cool if he went over that but alas.

Kevin Roegele

07-16-2011, 02:37 PM

The whole issue of Batman's name being cleared is dealt with in Peter David's excellent Batman Forever novelisation, in which Bats is helped out by none other than Harvey Dent.

JohnnyGobbs

07-16-2011, 02:48 PM

The whole issue of Batman's name being cleared is dealt with in Peter David's excellent Batman Forever novelisation, in which Bats is helped out by none other than Harvey Dent.

Yes, I might get it out and quote some passages but I believe it is suggested that once various members of The Penguin's gang were apprehended their evidence helped clear Batman.

The novelisation, which is incidentally much superior to the film, also establishes a fascinating basis for the friendship and mutual support between Batman and Harvey Dent, pre-Two Face. On an unrelated note, the novelisation also adds some extra character shading to Edward Nygma during one of its opening passages which depicts his childhood, including being the victim of bullying and developing an early admiration, bordering on obsession for Bruce Wayne after glimpsing a newspaper picture of a determined looking Bruce post-murder of his parents.

thebatandthecat

07-16-2011, 07:12 PM

I think the real question is why was the door to the cafe open since its clearly the middle of winter in a freezing cold town....that's the real problem! haha

Marx

07-16-2011, 09:02 PM

And that reminds me of the same scene when we see Catwoman. So did she survive that ending with Shreck!? I've honestly always just seen that scene as Burton just screwing with us, inserting whatever he wanted to in the movie. And for the sake of it, the camera is panning up buildings and Catwoman just appears out of nowhere... is she floating in the air!? I believe someone from the movie even questioned this, saying it made no sense.

I'm pretty sure Catwoman still had one life left after the ending with Shreck. Bruce saw her shadow run away before he picked up her black cat at the end.

As far as her popping up at the very end of the movie when the batsignal goes off, I saw it as a way to mirror the ending of B89. I assumed she was standing on a ledge with a camera behind her.

ALP

07-16-2011, 09:19 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love Returns, it's my favorite Batman movie but there are some moments that make me go "huh."

I like that we're not given a definitive answer about whether or not Catwoman really has 9 supernatural lives. Lots of mystique!!!

Marx

07-16-2011, 09:34 PM

I just remember her twisted countdown as she was being shot by Shreck. :funny:

"Two lives left. I think I'll save one for next Christmas. In the mean time, how about a kiss Santy Claus?" Then she goes in for the propane and electric wire for the kiss.

ALP

07-16-2011, 11:03 PM

Six, seven, all good girls go to heaven.

Burton always takes something dark, and still makes it grim but in his own silly whimsy style. Like when Shreck is electrocuted, his corpse is burned to a crisp but his hair and eyes remain. It's dark, but in a Burton way.

thebatandthecat

07-17-2011, 09:32 AM

I always liked the "4...5...STILL ALIVE!"

Michelle Pfeiffer absolutely owned that character! If anyone could have pulled off a spin-off movie it would have been her!