The Ultimate Jossverse Thread

[JLBats]

It wouldve been nice for them to hash out those issues. I don't think she brought out the worst in him. I did think it was annoying as it seemed every other scene together Xander was apologizing for something she said.

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. It brought out something of a misogynist in him, and ninety percent of the time it just seemed like he was using her for sex with no emotional connection. I would have liked if Anya somehow atoned for her sins earlier than season 7, but I don't expect much out of the later seasons anyway.

[Abaddon]

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. It brought out something of a misogynist in him, and ninety percent of the time it just seemed like he was using her for sex with no emotional connection. I would have liked if Anya somehow atoned for her sins earlier than season 7, but I don't expect much out of the later seasons anyway.


Well I don't think she was ever that remorseful to begin with. Her story was more about learning to be human again, than turning a new leaf. As for Xander,I dunno. I wasn't the biggest fan of their relationship. I guess maybe he wanted to care for her more than he could. But we also have to take into account Xander's family issues and stuff. I always saw he and Anya as boyfriend/girlfriend rather than lovers,soulmates,or what you have you thats pretty evident in the other Scooby relationships. I think it probably has alot to do with Xander's characterization.

Anya and Oz mightve made an interesting couple.:o

[JLBats]

Well I don't think she was ever that remorseful to begin with. Her story was more about learning to be human again, than turning a new leaf. As for Xander,I dunno. I wasn't the biggest fan of their relationship. I guess maybe he wanted to care for her more than he could. But we also have to take into account Xander's family issues and stuff. I always saw he and Anya as boyfriend/girlfriend rather than lovers,soulmates,or what you have you thats pretty evident in the other Scooby relationships. I think it probably has alot to do with Xander's characterization.

Anya and Oz mightve made an interesting couple.:o

But Anya killed, maimed and mutilated for hundreds of years. I would have liked to see her understanding that and regretting it a lot more and a lot sooner.

[Abaddon]

But Anya killed, maimed and mutilated for hundreds of years. I would have liked to see her understanding that and regretting it a lot more and a lot sooner.

Yeah, that would have made for an interesting development in season 6. Especially after the demon wedding fiasco.

[ico]

How would you all have liked to have seen the Illyria storyline play out if Angel had indeed gotten itself another season and presumably, Season Five ended not so dead-endy?

I heard the writers were going to eventually have Fred back and in the body but with Illyria's powers :confused:

No offence to the writers, because no matter how much I have moaned about certain things, they are still genius' compared to me on the writing front, but I feel like simply bringing Fred back would've sullied the devastating effect that her death had on fans.

The most I would have liked to have seen would be them discovering that Fred's soul wasn't destroying and incinerated during the ressurection and that she has actually found peace.

I just had a thought, and maybe it would've been a good way to bring Fred back. I was thinking that maybe after all Wesley was teaching her, and the gang discoevered Fred's soul, etc, that Illyria gave up the body, and sacrificed herself so Fred could come back alive. It would've been a neat way to show that Illyria had finally learned and came away from the homicidal monster that she once was.

[Happenstance]

From what I remember reading I think it was that Freds memories started to overwhelm Illyria in season 6 and Freds personality kind of came back that way.

[ico]

Yeah that was supposed to be how it came about with eventually Fred coming back in her entirely and somehow Illyria disapeering and it ending with Fred, with Illyria's power (or what remained of it).

[Happenstance]

I thought Freds death in the show was done really well, probably the best death in the Buffyverse but I loved the character so much that id definately welcome her back.

[ico]

This is where I'm torn. I loved Fred too. And I agree that her death was the best in the Buffyverse. And this is the reason why, as much as I'd love to see her again, I'd rather she stayed dead. I just feel like ressurecting her would cheapen her death and it would lose its impact for me because I'd know that it wasn't the end, for her.

[Happenstance]

I think it would have brought about some interesting storylines, especially with Wesley (who'd still be alive). I mean it still wouldnt really be Fred seeing as her soul was destroyed so really what would this new person be? Would Wes be able to carry on his relationship with her even though Fred is still technically dead?

[Harlekin]

I've heard two versions of the S6-Illyria:
- Fred and Illyria as seperate characters.
- Fred being able to transform into Illyria.

[Abaddon]

I assume it'd be the latter. The whole Willow splitting them in half might've been fan speculation. I sort of like that idea, as long as Illyria's personality wouldn't have ben swallowed entirely.

[ico]

Splitting Illyria and Fred wouldn't exactly be the best idea. as soon as Illyria was cut off from Fred's memories and conciousness she would revert back to her 100% demon ways and go all homicidal, as it was Fred's bits that were anchoring Illyria to good and keeping her from killing everyone.

[Speedball]

I always liked that Fred was dead and Illyria was permenantly in her body.
If they were to seperate, it would just make her death pointless and would make me very angry :mad:

[The Question]

Splitting Illyria and Fred wouldn't exactly be the best idea. as soon as Illyria was cut off from Fred's memories and conciousness she would revert back to her 100% demon ways and go all homicidal, as it was Fred's bits that were anchoring Illyria to good and keeping her from killing everyone.

No it wasn't. She gave up taking over the world when she found out that her armies were dead.

[JLBats]

The discussion of Illyria is one of those things that has been done so many times I can't care anymore. It seems that, unless Joss addresses it in Buffy season 8, we'll never really know:(

[Abaddon]

That applies to most of what we've ever discussed.:o

[ico]

No it wasn't. She gave up taking over the world when she found out that her armies were dead.

I don't think so. I think it was purely the remnants of Fred that were keeping Illyria anchored in humanity and stopping her from just going off and destroying everything and anything.

Even Wesley said it himself in Time Bomb, even after he drained her of the majority of her power:

"Much of what she was is still intact. I doubt she'll ever stop trying to conquer... everything."

Without Fred's memories, emotions and feelings in Illyria's head, Illyria would just be a killing machine, and as heartless and cold as any other purebread evil demon.

[ico]

That applies to most of what we've ever discussed.:o

Your avatar just reminded me of that faith scene as she is dancing to 'Living Dead Girl' by Rob Zombie, and I always felt that 'Feel So Numb' by Rob Zombie would've been more apt for that scene.

The lyrics for the chorus go;

Blacken the sun. What have I done? I feel so bad, I feel so numb.
Blacken the sun. What have I done? I feel so good, I feel so numb.

[The Question]

I don't think so. I think it was purely the remnants of Fred that were keeping Illyria anchored in humanity and stopping her from just going off and destroying everything and anything.

Even Wesley said it himself in Time Bomb, even after he drained her of the majority of her power:

"Much of what she was is still intact. I doubt she'll ever stop trying to conquer... everything."

Without Fred's memories, emotions and feelings in Illyria's head, Illyria would just be a killing machine, and as heartless and cold as any other purebread evil demon.

There's almost no evidence to support that. The only stated reason that she didn't go about her path of conquest was that her armies were dead and it would have been a futile effort otherwise. I tend to like to think that Illyria simply stopped being a homicidal dictator of her own accord.

[Abaddon]

There's almost no evidence to support that. The only stated reason that she didn't go about her path of conquest was that her armies were dead and it would have been a futile effort otherwise. I tend to like to think that Illyria simply stopped being a homicidal dictator of her own accord.


I agree. Illyria isn't stupid. She realized the world she knew was dead,and any attempt to reclaim what was once hers would be pointless. Illyria wasn't about spreading chaos. She/It was about having control. And even without Fred's memories,she still had limitations.

I think it was purely the remnants of Fred that were keeping Illyria anchored in humanity and stopping her from just going off and destroying everything and anything.

Why,cause she was bored?:confused:

[ico]

I agree. Illyria isn't stupid. She realized the world she knew was dead,and any attempt to reclaim what was once hers would be pointless. Illyria wasn't about spreading chaos. She/It was about having control. And even without Fred's memories,she still had limitations.

Why,cause she was bored?:confused:

She may not be stupid, but that doesn't mean that she can just drop the very feelings and drive that she has had for her entire life. Illyria was a soulless monster. To quote Sineya, she lived in the action of death. Her world was destruction, murder, chaos. She lived to rule over everything as she saw fit.

It was the remnants of Fred that bound her to humanity. It made her feel. She felt guilt. She felt grief. She had a conscience. As powerful as Illyria was, she was a slave to Fred's humanity that was left within her. Without this, we can only imagine what Illyria would be like. But it would have to be something pretty horrific, seeing as she was top of the food chain, even when the Old Ones were around.

Its because of all these reasons that I don't think that if she became Illyria in full and lost Fred's essence left within her, that she would justs it back and be all "oh well. i guess i still have to fit in here." It is just my educated guess, after researching her lines, things the writers/Joss has said about her, how she has been on screen, and also how other demons have acted, that Illyria would immediately try and regain control of at least something. Whether it be a group, a cult, a new gathering of her followers, but at least something. Control and being worshipped would be her top priority.

[Abaddon]

Demons don't need souls to feel. They are slaves to grief,anger,and all the same passions humans are. Of course she can't drop the feelings that drive her,those are part of her nature. But that doesn't mean she needs someones essence to make her consider other options. I do think Fred's feelings kept her grounded to an extent. But only because she was so curious about them.

[ico]

But judging by the descriptions of Illyria's past and her own recounts of her past, she doesn't exactly sound like the kind of demon who would even notice things like her conscience, if she had one, at all.

Not only that, but what really sets it in stone for me is that she was so obviously surprised and confused when she encountered not only Wesley's grief, but her own.

I do think Fred's feelings kept her grounded to an extent. But only because she was so curious about them.

I disagree. Fred's feelings were a part of Illyria. Illyria quoted herself that fragments of Fred had collapsed into her own systems. She had some of Freds memories. And her feelings, her humanity.

Illyria wasn't only curious about the feelings, she was infact feeling them. Whether she was curious or not, she couldn't deny these new emotions that were overwhelming to her as she seemed to have never felt anything like them before.

[Abaddon]

But judging by the descriptions of Illyria's past and her own recounts of her past, she doesn't exactly sound like the kind of demon who would even notice things like her conscience, if she had one, at all.

Not only that, but what really sets it in stone for me is that she was so obviously surprised and confused when she encountered not only Wesley's grief, but her own.

Well it's the first time she's taken a human form.



I disagree. Fred's feelings were a part of Illyria. Illyria quoted herself that fragments of Fred had collapsed into her own systems. She had some of Freds memories. And her feelings, her humanity.

Illyria wasn't only curious about the feelings, she was infact feeling them. Whether she was curious or not, she couldn't deny these new emotions that were overwhelming to her as she seemed to have never felt anything like them before.


Vampires have the same memoriesand feelings they had when they were alive. Yes,what was left of Fred had an effect on her,but do you truly believe if it didn't she'd just go around destroying things?:confused:

[ico]

Well it's the first time she's taken a human form.

.... I have absolutely no idea why you put that. It's just such a redundant remark. I have nothing to say. :confused:

Vampires have the same memoriesand feelings they had when they were alive. Yes,what was left of Fred had an effect on her,but do you truly believe if it didn't she'd just go around destroying things?:confused:

I didn't say she would just storm off and start smashing things like a mindless idiot. I think she would try and reclaim some kind of Kingdom or following. I do believe her intelligent enough to the chances of her reclaiming the Earth again are slim, but again, I doubt this is going to put a dampner on her feelings of wanting control and rulership.

And vampires are so different from Illyria, that they're not even worth comparing.

[Abaddon]

.... I have absolutely no idea why you put that. It's just such a redundant remark. I have nothing to say. :confused:

I actually wasn't even referring to her conscience,but her feelings.:confused:

I didn't say she would just storm off and start smashing things like a mindless idiot. I think she would try and reclaim some kind of Kingdom or following. I do believe her intelligent enough to the chances of her reclaiming the Earth again are slim, but again, I doubt this is going to put a dampner on her feelings of wanting control and rulership.

And vampires are so different from Illyria, that they're not even worth comparing.
The implication in your original statement was that without Fred's memories Illyria would kill everyone and try to take over the world,when she had absolutely no support,no guidance,and no real plan. How different are vampires from Illyria? Aside from maybe the physical differences, I can say that pure demons already come with own unique personality and thats it.

[ico]

The implication in your original statement was that without Fred's memories Illyria would kill everyone and try to take over the world,when she had absolutely no support,no guidance,and no real plan. How different are vampires from Illyria? Aside from maybe the physical differences, I can say that pure demons already come with own unique personality and thats it.

Then I must've worded it all wrong. My implication is that without Fred's humanity inside of her, I believe that Illyria would not be in the position that she is now and probably would've killed Angel and Co. long ago the first time they stood against her will.

[Abaddon]

She did that even with Fred's humanity inside her,when she thought they were going to kill her.:o

[ico]

Again this is an entirely different situation. She felt cornered and had witnessed herself being, what she thought to be, murdered by them. And even then, she didn't outright murder them all instantly, she waited, and hesistated, until finally choosing to destroy them.

I think if the "pure" Illyria were put in that place she would've annhiliated them immediately without a bat of an eyelid. Infact, like I've said, I think she probably would've murdered them long long ago.

[Happenstance]

I still think Illyria is mostly what we see, yeah she had Freds memories but you could see that they were seperate from her own in season 5 as she could access them easily. All we know of Illyria was that she was an old one and a ruler, of course she would want to reclaim her land and even though she is powerful I didnt see that she wanted to kill loads of people, just to rule them.

[Abaddon]

Again this is an entirely different situation. She felt cornered and had witnessed herself being, what she thought to be, murdered by them. And even then, she didn't outright murder them all instantly, she waited, and hesistated, until finally choosing to destroy them.

I think if the "pure" Illyria were put in that place she would've annhiliated them immediately without a bat of an eyelid. Infact, like I've said, I think she probably would've murdered them long long ago.
She might've hesuistated because she wasn't sure of what was happening,but not because she cared about them. When she first appeared Wes tried to drive an axe into her back and she didn't hardly gave him beatdown. And the Freds memories argument doesn't really apply there since she didn't even recognize that Fred existed. Illyria just doesn't think humans are worth the time.

[ico]

She might've hesistated because she wasn't sure of what was happening,but not because she cared about them. When she first appeared Wes tried to drive an axe into her back and she didn't hardly gave him beatdown. And the Freds memories argument doesn't really apply there since she didn't even recognize that Fred existed. Illyria just doesn't think humans are worth the time.

I'm not saying she totally cared for any of them, I just mean that her new emotions were clouding her judgement. Yes, she was confused, by not only the situation but by her emotions too. Yet, and again I say this, I do believe that the "pure" Illyria would've killed Wesley when she appeared in his office and pinned him with the table when she knew he was going to try and kill her. And then would've killed everybody else if they got in her as she left the building.

And as for the instance with Wesley attacking her with the axe, I would simply assume that she was so overwhelmed with being alive again, feeling again, feeling strange and confused about her new form, new sense, that, what must've felt like a tap on the back of her head, would've bothered her much, or even caught her attention.

Yes, I agree that she thinks humans to be so far below her that they're not worth her time. At least Illyria does. But then Fred has feelings for all these people, and Illyria could feel that too.

I still think Illyria is mostly what we see, yeah she had Freds memories but you could see that they were seperate from her own in season 5 as she could access them easily. All we know of Illyria was that she was an old one and a ruler, of course she would want to reclaim her land and even though she is powerful I didnt see that she wanted to kill loads of people, just to rule them.

Firstly, it was made pretty obvious that while Illyria knew that they were Freds memories and Freds emotions, it didn't stop the fact like they felt like her own, which is why many time she appeared confused and overwhelmed.

And Illyria doesn't care for humans. As she said, they were so unevolved that they were the muck beneath her feet when she once reigned, and I doubt she see's humans as a threat, more like a bad case of cockroaches or something. I didn't say that she will go out and kill them all. I said I think she would go out and build herself an empire, and if humans stand in her way, she would destroy them just like she would any other adversary.

[ico]

I've pulled up a few quotes to back me up:

Quotes proving that Illyria has never experienced "emotions" such as grief, remorse, guilt, etc, and has became more humanized due to Freds remnants:

This is grief. I'm watching human grief. It's like offal in my mouth.
Clearly she had never witnessed grief before, and now that she has she compares it to having raw waste animal body parts in her mouth. delightful.

We cling to what is gone. Is there anything in this life but grief?
She finds herself grieving over her lost kingdom and is overwhelmed by it. She also knows Wesley is grieving and is saddened by the fact that doesn't think hope enough to live in when consumed by grief.

Strange... though I've been made more human, this place remains disconcerting.

She plainly states she is more humanized.

Wesley's dead. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it. I wish to do more violence.
Once again, she's feeling grief and is surprised/overwhelmed by it.



Quotes proving that there was next to no, if any, humanity within Illyria in her purest form:

In my time, nightmares walked among us, walked and danced, skewering victims in plain sight, laying their fears and worst desires out for everyone to see. This...to make us laugh.
I lived 7 lives at once. I was power and the ecstasy of death. I was god to a god.
I enjoy hurting you.
I possess so much grace, more grace than this bag of sticks could express. I was the immaculate embodiment of rule. I blame this on the weakness of your species.



Quotes proving that Illyria would've destroyed them without a blink of an eye in the past, but only doesn't because she is so overwhelmed by the new world:

I should gut you where you stand. You challenged me. There's not enough space to open my jaws. My face is not my face. I don't know what it will say.
In my time, a leader would punish your insolence with death.
That you learn when you become a king. You learn to destroy everything that's not utterly yours. All that matters is victory. That's how your reign persists. You're a slave to an insane construct. You are moral. A true ruler is as moral as a hurricane, empty but for the force of his gale.
I will fight. I've been broken and humiliated. I will return in kind every blow, every sting. I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces.

Quotes proving that Illyria will never truly give up trying to reclaim control and rulership:

Adaptation is compromise. When the world met me, it shuddered, groaned. It knelt at my feet. Illyria was all they needed to know. You have nothing. Your kind has pulled this domain apart. Each of you has snatched a tiny piece of it. Even those with the mightiest hoards are paupers. To never die... and to conquer all, that is winning.
You must serve no master but your ambition.

How Illyria see's humans:

Motes of dust. Mayflies who die so soon after they're born they might as well not live at all.
Jealous. Plankton envying the ocean that holds them.

[The Question]

So? That doesn't mean that it was Fred and Fred alone that caused Illyria to grow as a person. She new that her armies were dead and the ways of her world had come and gone. It would have been foolish to try and reclaim her kingdom. A true warrior does not march towards victor when the only possible outcome is defeat. Besides, she just did what Spike did when he got the chip and couldn't cause trouble like he used to: vent her anger on people who deserved it anyway.

[Abaddon]

I'm not saying she totally cared for any of them, I just mean that her new emotions were clouding her judgement. Yes, she was confused, by not only the situation but by her emotions too. Yet, and again I say this, I do believe that the "pure" Illyria would've killed Wesley when she appeared in his office and pinned him with the table when she knew he was going to try and kill her. And then would've killed everybody else if they got in her as she left the building.

I think you're forgetting the fact that she knew something was happening to her. She just assumed Angel and the others were responsible and were trying to kill her. Of course she'd want to find out what they did to her before just killing them all.

And as for the instance with Wesley attacking her with the axe, I would simply assume that she was so overwhelmed with being alive again, feeling again, feeling strange and confused about her new form, new sense, that, what must've felt like a tap on the back of her head, would've bothered her much, or even caught her attention.

I disagree. She just didn't see Wesley as much of a threat.

Yes, I agree that she thinks humans to be so far below her that they're not worth her time. At least Illyria does. But then Fred has feelings for all these people, and Illyria could feel that too.



Firstly, it was made pretty obvious that while Illyria knew that they were Freds memories and Freds emotions, it didn't stop the fact like they felt like her own, which is why many time she appeared confused and overwhelmed.

After most of her powers were siphoned yes.

Quotes proving that Illyria would've destroyed them without a blink of an eye in the past, but only doesn't because she is so overwhelmed by the new world:

Right,except that being overwhlemed isn't stopping her. She knows she has no power. Everyone who worshipped her was dead. It's the equivalent of a young woman working in retail babbling about her glory days in high school when she couldve emotionally destroyed anyone at the bottomn of the social hierarchy.

[Angelus7181]

Are we ever going to get anything from the buffyverse anytime soon..or what?

So bored of what tv has to offer so far. :(

[Abaddon]

check the previous page.

[Happenstance]

I think its time this thread was brought back to page 1 again!

So whats everyone hoping for then from Buffy Season 8?

[The Question]

Well, there are a few things I've thought would be cool to see in a Buffy season 8/Angel season 6:


1) Buffy and the Slayers have formed a new Watcher's council, which is now kind of like a mystical, demon killing version of SHEILD, with Buffy and Giles serving as the leaders of the organization.

2) Spike, Angel, and Illyria have become urban vigilantes in L.A., fighting both regular crimes and supernatural threats.

3) Harmony joins the Watcher's organization as a "Training Specialist." In other words, the slayers get to beta the crap out of her as practice.

4) Oz, by this point, has become a sort of zen guru of werewoflism, and comes to L.A. to teach Nina how to control her animal side.

5) Angel takes in a young Irish girl who is both a slayer and, as he soon finds out, his own neice (plus a few centuries worth of greats), and thus his only living relative besides Connor.

6) At some point, during a strange mystical event where the barriers if time and space are torn asunder, we finally see a caveman and an astronaut fight each other.

[Poetic Chaos]

Watching these last season 5 episodes of Angel on TNT...wow, it's so much better than Buffy ever was. Angel is just so much more interesting to follow. He has so much more potential for storylines just because he's so unique and old. There are plenty of slayers but only 2 vampires with souls. He could get a show for his time in the Scourge of Europe alone. I really wish this show was still on.

[The Question]

Buffy's main flaw as a show was that the main character was the least interesting character in the series. All of my favorite stories centered around the supporting cast. Angel took all of those cool supporting characters who weren't getting enough exposure and gave them their own show.

[JLBats]

See, I really loved Buffy in the first few seasons. She could be a selfish *****, but she was funny and intelligent and, particularly towards the end of season three, she showed real maturity. I feel one of the biggest flaws of later seasons was that they dropped the ball on how her character was handled.

[The Question]

Still, I found all of the supporting characters to be much more interesting. Xander, Willow, Angel, Spike, Anya, Dawn, Giles, Faith, hell, even Joyce. All much more interesting characters, I thought.

[JLBats]

I still think a huge problem with the show was the huge switch in season four. For me, I don't think of either The Gift or Chosen as real series finales, although I do like The Gift. For me, the moment all of the organic storylines played themselves out and came to a natural end was Graduation Day.

[Happenstance]

After season 3 ended Buffy really did become a less likable character. For teh first 3 seasons she was one of my favourites, probably just behind Xander but after season 3 she dropped to pretty much the bottom of the list.

[GyLocke]

I think the fact that the "balance" on earth is screwed because of the large number of slayers (and increasing number of vampires with souls) and the destruction of the Hellmouth is an opportunity to tell great stories about the other side's "retribution".

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I'm really looking forward to the Buffy Season 8 comics. Now, if we could get some official Angel Season 6 comics, that would be awesome. The IDW Angel comics have been okay, but FOX isn't really letting the writers shake anything up. I'd like to see a writer, maybe Whedon or someone, take the characters in new directions.

As far as what I'd like to see, I'd prefer a story set after The Girl in Question, but perhaps one that gives us tidbits on specifics of what the Scoobies have been up to since Chosen.

I want Whedon not to play it safe - like I said about the Angel comics, I really want to see Whedon really take the characters in new directions and be willing to shake things up like he was in the series.

I also want to see a lot of cameos from old characters. :) Oz, maybe?

[The Question]

I think the fact that the "balance" on earth is screwed because of the large number of slayers (and increasing number of vampires with souls) and the destruction of the Hellmouth is an opportunity to tell great stories about the other side's "retribution".


Well, the Hellmouth in Sunnydale wasn't the only Hellmouth in the world.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Hm...that idea still works, though. Perhaps the reason there are as many Hellmouths as there are is because of some sort of balance between good and evil...without it things are out of whack maybe?

[The Question]

It is possible that losing even one Hellmouth does shift the balance of power against the various Hell dimensions. At least the ones connected to the Sunnydale Hellmouth. Maybe they could do a story about, after the Hellmouth was destroyed, Wolfram and Hart try to take control of that area of California, which up until that point had far too much demonic activity to be properly controlled.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Maybe...that might be something cool to do in the Buffy comic...a nice way to cross that aspect of Angel into Buffy's world.

[Abaddon]

I'm surprised we didn't see any of Alyson Hannigan in that WB farewell.

[vampireslayer97]

I can't believe I missed that re-airing of the pilot. :( Has it really been nearly 10 years?

[Primal Slayer]

I'm surprised we didn't see any of Alyson Hannigan in that WB farewell.

She was in it. She was in the group shot.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I can't believe I missed that re-airing of the pilot. :( Has it really been nearly 10 years?

Actually, if you want to look at it a certain way, it's been exactly ten years, as the entire first season of Buffy was produced in '96, but wasn't aired until '97.

It's kind of weird to imagine that one of my favorite shows of all time was being filmed and created when I was only ten years old.

Weird, huh?

[Happenstance]

Does anyone know if information was ever given out on what was originally planned for Angel season 4 before Charisma got pregnant? Id be interested to know.

[Harlekin]

Actually, if you want to look at it a certain way, it's been exactly ten years, as the entire first season of Buffy was produced in '96, but wasn't aired until '97.

It's kind of weird to imagine that one of my favorite shows of all time was being filmed and created when I was only ten years old.

Weird, huh?
Dude, I was like... 8 when this first show came on. :eek:

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Does anyone know if information was ever given out on what was originally planned for Angel season 4 before Charisma got pregnant? Id be interested to know.

I think they always planned on making her the villain of that season, but the pregnancy necessitated the Connor/Jasmine aspect of that storyline.

I personally always thought it had something to to with The First Evil, myself...

[Abaddon]

Before the season started it was said that the villains on both Buffy and Angel would be one in the same way. Didn't quite work out that way, obviously. I do remember reading an interview shortly after the show ended where one of the writers stated that the one thing he regretted was having Cordy ascend.:huh:

[Happenstance]

I wish they'd done something else with Cordy, it was her last full season and I would like to have seen her as herself not possesed by Jasmine. I didnt like her in season 3 too much, she'd become a bit preachy etc. Im just glad when she came back in season 5 her character was back to the best.

[JLBats]

I really would have liked it better if Cordy kept the visions and went into her coma in the end because of them. Making her half demon was such a cop-out from the brilliance of that storyline.

[Happenstance]

Yeah that would have been good actually, dragging it out longer and having her leave the show showing some real character by never giving up the visions.

[Ghostvirus]

So what going on with the Movies that were planned?

[Happenstance]

They got brought down to just one, the Spike movie and now from what ive heard thats pretty much dead aswell.

[JLBats]

Ha, I'm just rewatching Once More With Feeling.

How can ANYONE not like this show?:csad:

[Abaddon]

I really would have liked it better if Cordy kept the visions and went into her coma in the end because of them. Making her half demon was such a cop-out from the brilliance of that storyline.


That would've been best. Though I think they'd need some sort of temporary solution since they established early on that the visions were doing her damage. Having her die because of the visions would've been more tragic, but in a good way.:yay::csad:

[Mike]

I feel depressed watching David Boreanaz playing Seely Booth. I just want the guy to vamp out already.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Before the season started it was said that the villains on both Buffy and Angel would be one in the same way. Didn't quite work out that way, obviously.

First Evil, baby...

If you pay close attention to the first part of the season (IE, before Jasmine), it's SO obvious that's what they were going for...

[LadyVader]

And they changed it just to suit Charisma's pregnancy!?

[PyroChamber]

Did anyone know that Mercedes McNab is going to be in November's issue of Playboy? I just found out about it on Wiki.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

And they changed it just to suit Charisma's pregnancy!?

I guess so. I was really hoping that the baby would end up being a physical embodiment of the First.

[Abaddon]

First Evil, baby...

If you pay close attention to the first part of the season (IE, before Jasmine), it's SO obvious that's what they were going for...


I've no doubt he meant The First...originally. I'm not convinced that Cordy's pregnancy changed that part of the storyline though.:huh: :csad:

[JLBats]

That would've been best. Though I think they'd need some sort of temporary solution since they established early on that the visions were doing her damage. Having her die because of the visions would've been more tragic, but in a good way.:yay::csad:

For me, it would have been much more of a character thing. The whole ascension thing was just so out there, and kind of made me feel like her character arc had become inevitable, not dependent on her own choices.

[The Question]

I've no doubt he meant The First...originally. I'm not convinced that Cordy's pregnancy changed that part of the storyline though.:huh: :csad:

Remember when Connor talked to the ghost of his mother, but it wasn't the ghost of his mother? Well, I think that it was the first trying to convince Connor into getting rid of Jasmine, who's existence was screwing with it's plans.

[Happenstance]

But that was the ghost of Darla, im pretty sure I read a quote confirming it.

[Abaddon]

How can Darla have a ghost, she died in like the 14/1500s. The Darla we know is just the demon with her memories.:huh:

That and the fact that only Connor could see her(Cordy could only because of Jasmine is sort of an Old One, I guess) seemed to support the idea it was the First. Man it sucks just thinking about how badass a villain they couldve made the First.

Remember when Connor talked to the ghost of his mother, but it wasn't the ghost of his mother? Well, I think that it was the first trying to convince Connor into getting rid of Jasmine, who's existence was screwing with it's plans.


Yeah, I figured that as well. Same with Lilah and Wes. The latter scene screamed First Evil to me, and the later appearance of Darla was similar as well. I wish Joss would just say it already.:cmad:

[Happenstance]

The powers could have easily sent Darla to try and stop Connor from bringing Jasmine into the world.

[Abaddon]

Yes, but I don't buy it.:o

[The Question]

How can Darla have a ghost, she died in like the 14/1500s. The Darla we know is just the demon with her memories.:huh:

Pretty much everything after seasons one and two of Buffy suggest that the nature of a vampire is much more complex than that. Besides, demons can have ghosts.

[Abaddon]

Pretty much everything after seasons one and two of Buffy suggest that the nature of a vampire is much more complex than that.

I disagree.:cmad:

Besides, demons can have ghosts.

Wha-huh?:huh:

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Hm...the Darla/First ghost is a pretty cool idea. I like that idea - it makes thing connected even though they weren't the same evil, you know what I mean?

Although I would've liked Angel's big-bad being the First a lot better. Very cross-over-y.

[Abaddon]

I think it wouldve been better if they just made Cordys demoness part of some evil plan. It didn't make her grow as a character or anything. It was pretty pointless.[/non sequitur]

[PyroChamber]

Not sure if anyone cares, but I found this online...

http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=33621_MercedesMcNabNov2006001_123_36 8lo.jpg

[Harlekin]

I care. Heard about. Now I see a pic of it. Now I care even more.

Hot damn. :D

[Eklypze]

her pictures arent even that good Charismas were alot better but it was still nice to see harmonys tits

[The Question]

I disagree.:cmad:

So, I guess you missed Spike's entire character arc, plus all the times where Angel talked about Angelus as if he were an aspect of his own mind, not simply a demon taking his place.

Wha-huh?:huh:

Demons can have ghosts too. I mean, I don't see any reason why they couldn't.

[Abaddon]

So, I guess you missed Spike's entire character arc, plus all the times where Angel talked about Angelus as if he were an aspect of his own mind, not simply a demon taking his place.

Angelus is apparently a separate entity, when he shouldn't be. There was nothing all that complex about Spike.

Demons can have ghosts too. I mean, I don't see any reason why they couldn't.

I guess the ones that have souls do.:huh:

[The Question]

Angelus is apparently a separate entity, when he shouldn't be.

No, he isn't. He's a part of Angel. A part that Angel manages to keep burried most of the time, but comes out when Angel looses his soul (which seems to simply mean that his Id is dominant over his Super Ego, since other vampires have been shown to be pretty much harmless since their baser desires are much more harmless.

There was nothing all that complex about Spike.

Are you kidding me? Spike's probably one of the more cplex characters in the series. And his whole story pretty much proved that a vampire isn't a completely seperate entity from the human they once were, but simply a less restrained extension.

I guess the ones that have souls do.:huh:

They all have souls. A soul, in Buffy, seems to simply be the energy that animates the body. Demon souls are just slightly different from human souls.

[Abaddon]

No, he isn't. He's a part of Angel. A part that Angel manages to keep burried most of the time, but comes out when Angel looses his soul (which seems to simply mean that his Id is dominant over his Super Ego, since other vampires have been shown to be pretty much harmless since their baser desires are much more harmless.

Angelus is evil Liam, and Angel is remorseful Liam. Once he was ensouled, he became so horrified by his actions that he surpressed his urges for a hundred years. Without a soul, he doesn't have to so he's evil. I don't think there's much more involved than that.



Are you kidding me? Spike's probably one of the more cplex characters in the series. And his whole story pretty much proved that a vampire isn't a completely seperate entity from the human they once were, but simply a less restrained extension.



Kinda figured that once VampWillow showed up on the scene. And eventually Harmony.

They all have souls. A soul, in Buffy, seems to simply be the energy that animates the body. Demon souls are just slightly different from human souls.

Where was this confirmed?:huh:

[The Question]

Angelus is evil Liam, and Angel is remorseful Liam. Once he was ensouled, he became so horrified by his actions that he surpressed his urges for a hundred years. Without a soul, he doesn't have to so he's evil. I don't think there's much more involved than that.

Except that he has often slipped back into his darker, more sadistic tendancies in the past, as evident with the incident where he allowed Darla to massacre Wolfram & Hart's top lawyers. Also, when high on drugs in season two, he began acting exactly like Angelus. Meaning, at least to me, that Angel and Angelus are much more intertwined. Angel is Angelus when he is in control of his more violent urges. He probably feels the urge to commit murders like Angelus regularly, but is simply able to stop himself.


Where was this confirmed?:huh:

In the first episode. Giles said that an elder demon, upon leaving our world, mixed his blood and his soul with a human, creating the hybrid race known as the vampire. Vampires, and presumably all other demonic creatures, have souls. They're just different from human ones.

[Abaddon]

Except that he has often slipped back into his darker, more sadistic tendancies in the past, as evident with the incident where he allowed Darla to massacre Wolfram & Hart's top lawyers. Also, when high on drugs in season two, he began acting exactly like Angelus. Meaning, at least to me, that Angel and Angelus are much more intertwined. Angel is Angelus when he is in control of his more violent urges. He probably feels the urge to commit murders like Angelus regularly, but is simply able to stop himself.

I agree, which is why it's dumb to treat them separate entities. Unless you want to buy into the multiple personality thing.




In the first episode. Giles said that an elder demon, upon leaving our world, mixed his blood and his soul with a human, creating the hybrid race known as the vampire. Vampires, and presumably all other demonic creatures, have souls. They're just different from human ones.

I don't remember that he specifically mentioned soul.

[The Question]

I agree, which is why it's dumb to treat them separate entities. Unless you want to buy into the multiple personality thing.

Actually, I do sort of buy into the multiple personality thing to a degree. I think a way he keeps his psychotic urges in check is by treating them as a seperate entity that he can confront within his own mind.

I don't remember that he specifically mentioned soul.

He did. And really, in Buffy, the soul simply seams to be the energy that animates the body. So, demons kind of have to have souls to be alive.

[Harlekin]

her pictures arent even that good Charismas were alot better but it was still nice to see harmonys tits
Eh, they were actually kind of... eww-ish. The rest of it was still hot enough though.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Actually, I do sort of buy into the multiple personality thing to a degree. I think a way he keeps his psychotic urges in check is by treating them as a seperate entity that he can confront within his own mind.


Wow...that actually makes sense, and it allows AtS S4 Angelus to not totally contradict BtVS S2 Angelus...

Good job. :up:

[Abaddon]

Actually, I do sort of buy into the multiple personality thing to a degree. I think a way he keeps his psychotic urges in check is by treating them as a seperate entity that he can confront within his own mind.

That's fair, but for everyone else to do the same is very silly. I'm mostly referring to the memory wipe/Beast thing.


[quote]He did. And really, in Buffy, the soul simply seams to be the energy that animates the body. So, demons kind of have to have souls to be alive.

It's more than energy if Buffy was in some form of heaven.:huh:

[The Question]

Wow...that actually makes sense, and it allows AtS S4 Angelus to not totally contradict BtVS S2 Angelus...



Good job. :up:

Thanks. And really, even the S4 Angelus/Angel fight within Angel's mind supports this, as they were fighting long before Angel regained his soul, implying that it wasn't Human Soul VS. Demon Soul, but two halves of a fractured mind, the sane half and the dangerously homicidal half, battling for dominance.

That's fair, but for everyone else to do the same is very silly. I'm mostly referring to the memory wipe/Beast thing.

True. That's the way I think it is with Angel. It's not the way it is with most other vampires.

It's more than energy if Buffy was in some form of heaven.:huh:

Well, I think we need to make a distinction between soul and consciousness. That's why, I think, when a person becomes a vampire, their consciousness, who and what they are, remains intact. Their soul, the energy that makes them biologically live, is replaced with a demonic soul, which gives them their vampirinc abilities, their predatory instincts, and maybe causes enough brain damage for their super ego to function and lessened capacity, making them more driven by desire and impulse than rational thinking.

[Abaddon]

I'm onboard with that, though I've tended to assume that the demonic entity doesn't have the same consciousness, just the memories and experiences of the person whose body they inhabit. But then we could go into a whole thing about whether memories or consciousness makes a person, etc.:o

[The Question]

I'm onboard with that, though I've tended to assume that the demonic entity doesn't have the same consciousness, just the memories and experiences of the person whose body they inhabit. But then we could go into a whole thing about whether memories or consciousness makes a person, etc.:o

I tend to go with the theory that that's simply BS the Watcher's Council spews so the new recruits don't feel guilty about killing what are, in fact, sentient beings that are not inherently evil, and simply have predatory insticts that put them in conflict with humans regularly.

[Abaddon]

They're animals basically.

[The Question]

They're animals basically.

True, but in the same way that humans are animals. They also have sentience and inteligence and all that stufff that humans do. Psychologically, they're not too different from us. It's their instincts that make up the difference.

[Twitch]

So I picked up Buffy Seasons 4 and 5 over the weekend and I watched the first episode of Season 4 and I felt like it was dragging the whole time. Seriously what the point of that season? The only reason I could see was that they were setting Spike up to be a major player in seasons 5-7. The only reason I got season 4 in the first place was that I'm a ***** for continunity. :o

[Abaddon]

It was a pretty lame season, but demon-Giles and Hush were standouts.:o

[Sawyer]

Hey guys, I just read on Comics continuum that Jeph Loeb will be writing an arc of the Buffy season 8 comic book. This is great news.

[JLBats]

It was a pretty lame season, but demon-Giles and Hush were standouts.:o

Arc-wise, I think it's the sound of the show dying a terrible death. On an episode by episode basis though, it's a decent season. I've been rewatching the whole show, and I just got to season 5. I was starting to forget how ****ing amazing this show was in it prime. I'm now reminded.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I enjoyed Season 4...:o

[Darren Daring]

You are wrong:down

[Twitch]

Arc-wise, I think it's the sound of the show dying a terrible death. On an episode by episode basis though, it's a decent season. I've been rewatching the whole show, and I just got to season 5. I was starting to forget how ****ing amazing this show was in it prime. I'm now reminded.

I really like Season 4 if it seperated like this Good/Bad. As a whole it pretty much sucked. Season 4 did show one thing for me was the strength of the supporting characters.

Most of the episodes I liked had:
Oz
Angel
Faith

Buffy in my mind wouldn't have survived so long as it did if they didn't have such awesome supporting characters.

[JLBats]

I really like Season 4 if it seperated like this Good/Bad. As a whole it pretty much sucked. Season 4 did show one thing for me was the strength of the supporting characters.

Most of the episodes I liked had:
Oz
Angel
Faith

Buffy in my mind wouldn't have survived so long as it did if they didn't have such awesome supporting characters.

It's one of the huge disadvantages of the show post-high school for me. The loss of some great supporting players.

Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Faith, Snyder, etc.

For me, the first three seasons of the show nearly revolve around Angel and Buffy. Taking that dynamic out was bound to weaken the show.

I also really felt that an on campus base of operations, like the library in seasons 1-3, would have greatly improved season 4.

[Twitch]

It's one of the huge disadvantages of the show post-high school for me. The loss of some great supporting players.

Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Faith, Snyder, etc.

For me, the first three seasons of the show nearly revolve around Angel and Buffy. Taking that dynamic out was bound to weaken the show.

I also really felt that an on campus base of operations, like the library in seasons 1-3, would have greatly improved season 4.

Wasn't Giles' home their base of operations?

I agree the loss of those characters showed greatly in Season 4. However in Season 4 through the rest of the series they smartly fleshed out guys like Giles, Willow, Xander, and Spike to their fullest potenial. To make up for those losses.

I kind of hate it that they never had Oz on Angel after New Moon Rising. I mean come the **** on, it would have been so cool.

[JLBats]

Wasn't Giles' home their base of operations?


Hence my suggestion of an "On campus" base of operation. I never liked using Gile's house for it. It also sort of distracted, to me, from the college storylines the show would do. A nice, rundown fraternity would've worked.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I kind of hate it that they never had Oz on Angel after New Moon Rising. I mean come the **** on, it would have been so cool.

I had heard he was supposed to show in Season 6 had it come to pass...

...but that's one of those "urban legends" so to speak that's never been 100% confirmed.

[Twitch]

Hence my suggestion of an "On campus" base of operation. I never liked using Gile's house for it. It also sort of distracted, to me, from the college storylines the show would do. A nice, rundown fraternity would've worked.

Oh I see now gotcha

Xander mumbling about not being in College every time they meet would have been hilarious.

[PyroChamber]

Does anyone by chance know if there's an Angel collection, sorta like Buffy's Chosen collection?

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Does anyone by chance know if there's an Angel collection, sorta like Buffy's Chosen collection?

There is, but for some reason it's only been released in the UK. I don't know why the US hasn't gotten it yet.

[Darren Daring]

Hey, Buffy fans, come read pt 3 of Three Times A Lady: A Darren Daring Adventure

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255884&page=3

It's awesome!

[Abaddon]

Question: How would you like to see or have seen the characters exit?

[Primal Slayer]

I just wish that they would have had Coredlia do a cross over to Buffy before the show eneded since she is the only original cast member not to make an appearence on the show after she left.

And it sucks that UPN and WB had to be b*tches during Season6 of Buffy/ Season3 of Angel since that wouldve been a great season to do a cross over in for Angel since Buffy just came back. And we wouldnt have had that off screen meeting.

[Abaddon]

There was really no reason for her to drop by though, except maybe Buffy's funeral, which was offscreen.

[Abaddon]

Just wnated to point out Robia Lamorte's appearance in a Tassimo coommercial. but I found a few others on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsZ7ocPp8tw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iycd8Qy5aAE&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFJ1TQRCk2c&mode=related&search=

Still stunning.:up:

[Warhammer]

Bump.

Anyone out there who's favorite character was Angel, like I?

[Abaddon]

Can't say he was my favorite.:o

[Primal Slayer]

Angel was ok but I didnt like him as much when he slept with Darla and went all moody then became all cheery.

Season4 had plenty of stand out episodes

you had

This Years Girl
Who Are You
Hush
The episode where Giles turns into a demon
The Yoko Factor
Primevil
Restless
Fearless
The episode where Oz leaves
The episode where Oz returns
The episode with Kathy sucking out Buffys soul(it was funny)
The episode where Spike returns and sets up the Angel crossover


Sure it wasnt the best season but wasnt the worse. I didnt like it upon first viewing but after seeing it again I loved Season4.

It was a good introduction to their college life.

[LastSunrise1981]

Bump.

Anyone out there who's favorite character was Angel, like I?

Angel was definitely an interesting character. Wesley, on the other hand, was always a joy to watch mainly due to his complex nature and how he went through one of the best transformations in the show.

In Buffy he started out as a weak whiney and snobby Watcher, came to L.A. as a "Rogue Demon Hunter" but was still the same weakling, and he gradually became a true badass with each season.

First he was a weakling, which ultimately led to him being tortured by Faith, being shot in the stomach, having his throat slit and was nearly killed by Angel in the hospital, and the list goes on. I have to say he became one of the best characters of the show after having his throat cut by Justine.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season3/vidcaps/48_21.jpg

http://www.kuschelirmel.de/pics/angel/angel%20s5/season%205%20promo/season%205%20angel7.jpeg

http://images.zap2it.com/20040706/angel_gallery/46_alysonhannigan_alexisdenisof_four.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Wesley_Wyndam-Price.jpg

[Abaddon]

I really wish he'd have had a meeting with Giles after all the crap he went through. As different as they started out, they became more alike than ever.

[Warhammer]

There really needs to be an Angel movie, to give proper closure and to see the characters on the big screen, ala Serenity. :up:

[Warhammer]

I really wish he'd have had a meeting with Giles after all the crap he went through. As different as they started out, they became more alike than ever.

That would've been great.

[Warhammer]

Angel was definitely an interesting character. Wesley, on the other hand, was always a joy to watch mainly due to his complex nature and how he went through one of the best transformations in the show.

In Buffy he started out as a weak whiney and snobby Watcher, came to L.A. as a "Rogue Demon Hunter" but was still the same weakling, and he gradually became a true badass with each season.

First he was a weakling, which ultimately led to him being tortured by Faith, being shot in the stomach, having his throat slit and was nearly killed by Angel in the hospital, and the list goes on. I have to say he became one of the best characters of the show after having his throat cut by Justine.

I see what you mean.
Wes was my 2nd favorite character in the Jossverse, followed by Spike, of course.

[Abaddon]

That would've been great.


It also would've been cool to see how Giles reacts to Illyria.

[Warhammer]

Seconded. :up:

[LastSunrise1981]

There really needs to be an Angel movie, to give proper closure and to see the characters on the big screen, ala Serenity. :up:

After the season finale they should've done an Angel movie to bring closure to the story and the characters. However, Boreanaz and Marsters have both said Angel is long gone and will not be seen again. :csad: :csad:

Plus an Angel movie without Wesley isn't going to work at all.

One thing that always interested me is Lorne as well. I'd love to ask Joss how would he write Lorne after he killed Lindsay.

[Abaddon]

I don't even see ho it was necessary to kill Lindsey. I['m still not sure what to make of his death

[Warhammer]

After the season finale they should've done an Angel movie to bring closure to the story and the characters. However, Boreanaz and Marsters have both said Angel is long gone and will not be seen again. :csad: :csad:

What about the Spike (TV) Movie which was going to come out at one time?

I also remember Boreanaz saying that he wouldn't be Angel again UNLESS it was a movie. Maybe I misunderstood? :csad:

Plus an Angel movie without Wesley isn't going to work at all.

Well, they could write up a good enough reason to bring him back. ;)

One thing that always interested me is Lorne as well. I'd love to ask Joss how would he write Lorne after he killed Lindsay.

Agreed. That was a big shocker for me on the finale even though I wondered why he did it.

[Harlekin]

My fave character was always Wesley. If I wanted to see one character cross over to Buffy again it was Wesley. Preferably during S7, where he would've gotten the chance to show his badassitude with the Turok Han, giving the Buffy the key to defeating him or something. It also would've made for some great interaction with Giles, Spike, Dawn et al.

[Warhammer]

We need another Jossverse show.
Without one on TV, TV is a bit incomplete.

[Sawyer]

We need another Jossverse show.
Without one on TV, TV is a bit incomplete.
I agree. I'm just not sure if it should be original or Buffyverse though. I wouldnt mind a Whedon developed X-Men show.

[Abaddon]

Too bad the Buffy catroon didn't get picked up. :csad: x 100

[The Question]

I agree. I'm just not sure if it should be original or Buffyverse though. I wouldnt mind a Whedon developed X-Men show.

I heard that there was a short lived rumor of that a few years back, but it must have folded rather quickly.

[Twitch]

My fave character was always Wesley. If I wanted to see one character cross over to Buffy again it was Wesley. Preferably during S7, where he would've gotten the chance to show his badassitude with the Turok Han, giving the Buffy the key to defeating him or something. It also would've made for some great interaction with Giles, Spike, Dawn et al.

I would have loved to have seen their reactions :woot:

Akward and everything, would have been awesome

[PyroChamber]

What about the Spike (TV) Movie which was going to come out at one time?Apparently, FOX decided not to go forward with it.

[Warhammer]

Apparently, FOX decided not to go forward with it.

Damn FOX. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/mad/1336.gif

[Primal Slayer]

No studio would put up enough money to produce a quality tv movie, same thing happened with animated show. Noone wants to put up money to produce them which is a shame.

[Abaddon]

The Buffy cartoon couldve easily been successful on CN.:csad:

[The Batman]

Bump.

Anyone out there who's favorite character was Angel, like I?


He is, but I like him when he's more dark and brooding, like in seasons 1 and 2 of Angel. When he gets all happy, its weird.

[Abaddon]

It was a pretty dramatic personality shift

[Eklypze]

i wish we coulda seen Willows reaction o Illyria considering that Giles never had any contact with fred or maybe even Andrew seeing Illyria that woulld be total greatness

[Abaddon]

It wouldve been nice to see Giles reaction to an Old One.

[Sawyer]

i wish we coulda seen Willows reaction o Illyria considering that Giles never had any contact with fred or maybe even Andrew seeing Illyria that woulld be total greatness
Andrew would make some geeky comment which would be pretty funny.

[Sawyer]

Heres the next great cover of Buffy season 8. I love Jo Chen's illustrations.
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0701/09/buffy2.htm
Xander looks badass.

[Abaddon]

they don't look like the actors.:csad:

[Sawyer]

they don't look like the actors.:csad:
Well Buffy looks like SMG to me.

[Abaddon]

in the nose and hair, other than that i don't see it.

[LastSunrise1981]

My fave character was always Wesley. If I wanted to see one character cross over to Buffy again it was Wesley. Preferably during S7, where he would've gotten the chance to show his badassitude with the Turok Han, giving the Buffy the key to defeating him or something. It also would've made for some great interaction with Giles, Spike, Dawn et al.

That was one thing I was disappointed in. They never explored Wesley returning to help out Buffy, Giles, Xander, or Anya. Considering how they always looked at him as a joke, weakling, and a loser it would've been satisfying to see their reactions as to how much he changed.

[Abaddon]

Wes, Cordy, and even Angel became very different people after leaving Sunnydale, and it wouldve been nice for the classic Scoobs to acknowledge that.

[LastSunrise1981]

Wes, Cordy, and even Angel became very different people after leaving Sunnydale, and it wouldve been nice for the classic Scoobs to acknowledge that.

Willow and Faith were the only ones that actually acknowledged the change in Wesley. I remember Faith was initially shocked at how Wesley tortured a drug/vampire addict for information.

[xxAPCxx]

I tend to go with the theory that that's simply BS the Watcher's Council spews so the new recruits don't feel guilty about killing what are, in fact, sentient beings that are not inherently evil, and simply have predatory insticts that put them in conflict with humans regularly.
I agree w/ you that they are not inherently evil since if you look at Spike he wasn't necessarily evil, he just did whatever he wanted which just so happened to be in line against what buffy and friends supported, however it shows that he is still capable of having 'good' intentions with the way he was w/ buffy in season 5 and most of 6.

You want contradictions how about when Angel says in season 1 that he has no breath yet Spike is always smoking.

[Warhammer]

That was one thing I was disappointed in. They never explored Wesley returning to help out Buffy, Giles, Xander, or Anya. Considering how they always looked at him as a joke, weakling, and a loser it would've been satisfying to see their reactions as to how much he changed.

That would've been great.

[Warhammer]

You know, I've been watching the Angel eps with The Beast, and now, they really aren't that good, IMO.

[Abaddon]

why do you say that?

[Warhammer]

Well, they're good, but not in the same calibur as the Holtz eps.
I love seeing the new Wes, but I like the Holtz episodes a bit more. Cordelia also bothers me, but I guess it's because she is wayy out of character.

The Beast eps don't really get good until Angelus returns and Wes breaks Faith out of prison. :up:

[Abaddon]

Fair enough. I hated Holtz though.:down

[Warhammer]

You know, one villain that I really like for some reason is Hamilton. :confused:

[Abaddon]

Hamilton was alright, i guess. He had a great prescence, but there wasn't much to him.:huh:


I think I liked Lilah best.:up:

[Warhammer]

Lilah was nice.
And she survived for almost the whole show.

[The Batman]

The Beast stuff, save for connor and cordy, is the best stuff from season 4...it gets whack when jasmine is born, imo...

[LadyVader]

You want contradictions how about when Angel says in season 1 that he has no breath yet Spike is always smoking.

Their lungs aren't working but they can still inhale. :whatever:
I don't know. :)

[Abaddon]

For anyone interested the final two episodes of The Batman this season are being penned by Doug Petrie and Jane Espenson

[LastSunrise1981]

I found it pretty badass when Fred knocked out a homeless person who was under Jasmine's spell.

Wesley, Fred, Spike, Lorne, and Gunn are very underrated characters in my opinion. In my opinion Fred could be badass when she wanted to be in desperate situations.

But it's a shame really. Angel was an awesome show that didn't deserve to be cancelled. :csad:

It also would've been nice to see the evolution of Lorne. We never saw him really mix it up battles like most characters of Angel did. In the Season Finale he was still the scared, somewhat hesitant demon who didn't want to fight anything or anyone. Yet in other episodes we saw him get a punch or a kick in, or better yet, when Angel Investigations made their last stand against Jasmine's minions Lorne ended up kicking the **** out of some poor helpless soldier with a hockey stick. :D

My favorite Lorne moment is after Wesley knocks him out in order to kidnap Connor, some demons invade Angel Investigations and the chaos happens to wake Lorne up. Bleeding and pissed off he sings a high shrieking note and kicks the demon in the face.

[Abaddon]

I found it pretty badass when Fred knocked out a homeless person who was under Jasmine's spell.

Wesley, Fred, Spike, Lorne, and Gunn are very underrated characters in my opinion. In my opinion Fred could be badass when she wanted to be in desperate situations.

You can cross those two off your list. Especially Spike.

[LastSunrise1981]

You can cross those two off your list. Especially Spike.

As in underrated characters? I believe they were very underrated to some extent. They're recognized as being interesting characters, but others feel that Angel will always be the best over them, you know?

Wesley is definitely underrated. I always said he went through the best transformation as the series progressed into darker realms. I truly believe his character isn't recognized like he should be.

Spike, maybe I shouldn't have put Spike on the list. I loved how he maintained his same attitude despite having a soul.

[Abaddon]

As in underrated characters? I believe they were very underrated to some extent. They're recognized as being interesting characters, but others feel that Angel will always be the best over them, you know?

Not really.:huh:

Angel is the focus character, and most everything is driven around him but many fans including myself enjoy the supporting characters much more. I loved Fred and Lilah. I liked Gunn in seasons 3 and 4 but not 5. Lorne is okay, but they never really did much with him.

Wesley is definitely underrated. I always said he went through the best transformation as the series progressed into darker realms. I truly believe his character isn't recognized like he should be.


Pretty much everyone agrees Wesley had one of, if not, the best character transformations out of both Buffy and Angel. I'd say his kickassery is widely acknowledge. Just check through many of the posts in this very thread.:o:up:

[Sawyer]

Who do you guys think will be the villain in season 8? I think it would be interesting if the big bad was Ethan Rayne.

[Abaddon]

Hopefully Willows spell would've caused an even greater imbalance and some powerful whatsit decides to even things out by exterminating them or something.:dry:

[04nbod]

god i hated xander's patch. why poke his eye out- why?

[Warhammer]

The Xander thing was stupid.
I hated Caleb doing that.

Now that I think about it, I wish they did more with Caleb.
I also thought that the Buffy clone was so stupid. Also, I wish that Angel actually came back for a purpose. It would've been cool to see him and Buffy fight Caleb. Not the stupid "I need to do this, myself."

:whatever:

[Abaddon]

Alot of aspects of season 7 were stupid.

[Donnie Darko]

yes, like all of the "potentials" and anything involving Kennedy.

on the other hand, there were a few cool things, like Caleb

[Warhammer]

Caleb should've been a bigger villain than he was.
Writing wasn't worth s*** in the later seasons of Buffy, though. :o

It jumped the shark when Buffy was resurrected, IMO.

[Abaddon]

It jumped the shark when Buffy started boinking Spike and they decided magic was like drugs.:whatever:

[Mike]

It jumped the shark when Buffy started boinking Spike and they decided magic was like drugs.:whatever: For Me, it jumped the shark when Buffy went to College. Season 1-3 were kick ass then the show just fell off.

[Warhammer]

edit

[Warhammer]

It jumped the shark when Buffy started boinking Spike and they decided magic was like drugs.:whatever:

For Me, it jumped the shark when Buffy went to College. Season 1-3 were kick ass then the show just fell off.

Damn, those were pretty bad.

[Abaddon]

well the show began to suffer a significant loss once Angel, Cordelia, and eventually Oz left.

[Warhammer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/EvePromo.jpg

I always thought that Eve was pretty. :heart:

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Angel showing up at the end was weird, especially how out-of-character he acted considering that he'd just sliced open his sons throat (timeline-wise). We don't need him to be all like "Oh man, guess what totally happened to me?!" but he comes off like a jealous ex.

[Abaddon]

supposedly he would've had a talk with Buffy discussing his issues(Connor,Cordelia,etc.) but thought it would've come off bad or something.



and yes Eve was cute.

[PenanceStare]

I was watching Bones tonight and when David Boreanez gets pissed, I keep wanting him to go Vamp. :(

[Warhammer]

David Boreanez is awesome.

Also, what real purpose did it serve to have Angel on the last episode of Buffy?
For the sake of him being on the last episode?

[LadyVader]

One word. Closure.

...and to have Spike do that hilarious sketch of Angel. With hair sticking up mind you!

[Warhammer]

...and him being in the dark corner saying, "******".

I remember when he kept on saying "****** gotta learn" in the past seasons of Buffy.

[Abaddon]

David Boreanez is awesome.

Also, what real purpose did it serve to have Angel on the last episode of Buffy?
For the sake of him being on the last episode?

well a little of that, a little of what LadyVader said, but mostly to deliver the handy-dandy plot device.:o

[Ghostvirus]

Buffy should've ended after season 5.

[Ghostvirus]

Oh yeah. This just in. Whedon is off Wonder Woman.

[Sawyer]

Therefore, the movie shall fail.

[Savage]

Don't want to create another Whedon thread but would anyone like to see the Firefly series continued through a video game? Maybe GTA style but larger considering there's entire freakin planets to see and all. Taking on different jobs and such...Yes I just finished watching Firefly. :p

[Abaddon]

I have to make the effort to actually watch Firefly/Serenity.
Oh yeah. This just in. Whedon is off Wonder Woman.

I'm surprised and not surprised.:huh: :dry:

[Warhammer]

I'd have to borrow my friend's Firefly series DVD.

It was an acclaimed show, but I barely knew that it was on.
Fox screwed that show over.
I did watch Serenity, but it wasn't as good as it could've been because I never did watch Firefly.

[Savage]

Serenity was what got me into Firefly actually. After watching the movie, I bought it and immediately ordered the show afterwords. Real good stuff. :up: Fox did a S**t job marketing it. I caught commercials barely and never knew when it was on.

The episodes, for their budget, look brilliant though. Very good CGI to go with the very well written script and screenplay. Creatively cut corners in the budget to look almost theatrical. Even the action is very well done. Got it for 20 bucks online from Best Buy. I even went out and got the Serenity prequel TPB. :up:

[SWAT]

Yea, I also saw Serenity before Firefly. It did't ruin it for me tho, made me understand more of it.

[Reptile]

I'm havin a Jossverse marathon right now
ive watched all of firefly and ive watched up to season 3 of buffy
still more to go

[PyroChamber]

Oh yeah. This just in. Whedon is off Wonder Woman.So I guess Morena Baccarin for Wonder Woman is out of the question, and Charisma Carpenter and forget about playing her also.

[Harlekin]

Angel showing up at the end was weird, especially how out-of-character he acted considering that he'd just sliced open his sons throat (timeline-wise). We don't need him to be all like "Oh man, guess what totally happened to me?!" but he comes off like a jealous ex.
It was weird, but fun. I loved seeing Angel in the finale. He needed to be there.

[Warhammer]

The last episode of Angel came on this morning on TNT.
I wasn't home.

:csad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWzci3Wxi7o

(Last minute of the finale, crappy quality)

[Warhammer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/MarcusHamilton.jpg

Hamilton was such a cool villain, but had a really short time.
He beat the shyit out of Illyria, too.

[Ghostvirus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/MarcusHamilton.jpg

Hamilton was such a cool villain, but had a really short time.
He beat the shyit out of Illyria, too.

I was watching the Finale on TNT this morning, & got to thinking. When Angel stole some of Hamilton's power. I wonder if that would stick with him forever, & if so how would that of played out in the show?

[Warhammer]

^So many possibilities.

It's a shame that the show got canned, but it did go out with a bang, unlike certain shows.....*coughBuffycough*

[Roughneck]

Buffy went out with a Bang....and bang that left Sunnydale as a hunge crater

[Ghostvirus]

^So many possibilities.

It's a shame that the show got canned, but it did go out with a bang, unlike certain shows.....*coughBuffycough*

I agree a kind of. The difference is that at the end of season 5 for buffy. They really had no where else to go. I mean buffy went toe to toe with a god!

Angel on the other hand literally left off on a epic battle. I would have loved just one more season of Angel to close some doors. Like:

1. Did Gunn die?

2. Is Spike the true champion since. He chose to get a soul, & Angel gave up his right to be champion.

3. What is left to fight after the battle is over? (That is why I would want just one more season.)

4. Did Hamilton Survive?

5. Will Connor end up joining the gang again?

Etc....

[Warhammer]

I agree.

[Abaddon]

I think Angel's finale really put Buffy's to shame.

[Savage]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/MarcusHamilton.jpg

Hamilton was such a cool villain, but had a really short time.
He beat the shyit out of Illyria, too.
You know, I forgot Baldwin was on this show too. Man, after X-men and Firefly, I think I'm jumping on the Whedon bandwagon...I'm looking up some DVDs.

EDIT: uhp. Forget it. Just remembered I don't buy DVDs I only watched once. I literally could only watch each episode once and never bothered to watch the reruns.

[Donnie Darko]

I was watching the Finale on TNT this morning, & got to thinking. When Angel stole some of Hamilton's power. I wonder if that would stick with him forever, & if so how would that of played out in the show?

yeah, I was thinking that he shouldn't have stopped at just that little bit of blood he drank... like he should have sucked Hamilton dry (insert obvious gay joke here) for the inevitable battle ahead.

[PenanceStare]

Also, what real purpose did it serve to have Angel on the last episode of Buffy?
For the sake of him being on the last episode?

Yes, that and the fact at the end of the episode before when he throws that awesome right cross to hit ole' Priesty, I yelled "BADASS!" out loud when it orginally aired.

[Harlekin]

Angel's last episode definitely blew Buffy's out of the water.

[SWAT]

Me on the the endings, when I saw them:

Buffy: Well, I guess it's "kinda" over than.

Angel: WHAT!? Are you ****ing kidding me!? **** YOU, WARNER BROTHERS! Goddamnit!

but it was in Norwegian.

[Sawyer]

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0702/06/darkhorsemay.htm

A Buffy Omnibus and issue 3. Good month for me.

[Warhammer]

So, we've all came to the conclusion that Angel's finale was kickass. :up:

[LadyVader]

Angel's last episode definitely blew Buffy's out of the water.
Maybe it was slightly better but I don't think it's fair we say it blew it out of the water.

Chosen worked for Buffy like Not fade away worked for Angel. Chosen ended with hope and Not Fade Way ended with... well... no hope. :)

[PyroChamber]

I agree a kind of. The difference is that at the end of season 5 for buffy. They really had no where else to go. I mean buffy went toe to toe with a god!

Angel on the other hand literally left off on a epic battle. I would have loved just one more season of Angel to close some doors. Like:

1. Did Gunn die?

2. Is Spike the true champion since. He chose to get a soul, & Angel gave up his right to be champion.

3. What is left to fight after the battle is over? (That is why I would want just one more season.)

4. Did Hamilton Survive?

5. Will Connor end up joining the gang again?

Etc....Or if Eve survived, and what became of Lorne. I remember reading something about how they were thinking of having Willow appear in Season 6 and try to bring back Fred, or Wesley I forget.

Which probably wouldn't have worked with Fred being that her soul was destroyed when Illyria took over; when you think about it that's kinda said. On the shows, someone either goes to heaven or hell, Fred went no where.

[Hitch-Hiker]

Anyone here have any idea when the next Firefly comic is coming out? May have been mentioned already but I didn't want to read through 60 pages.

[Ghostvirus]

Or if Eve survived, and what became of Lorne. I remember reading something about how they were thinking of having Willow appear in Season 6 and try to bring back Fred, or Wesley I forget.

Which probably wouldn't have worked with Fred being that her soul was destroyed when Illyria took over; when you think about it that's kinda said. On the shows, someone either goes to heaven or hell, Fred went no where.

1. I think she is dead.

2. I think Lorne went back to Plyia/Pylar? He seemed to have a real disgust for humanity in the last few episodes.

3. When watching the finale. I was thinking how cool it would have been to have Willow appear when Wesley was fighting that Magic demon. Like have her appear just as he says "Now let me show you what a real wizard can do", then have her appear. That would have been AWESOME!

[Savage]

Anyone here have any idea when the next Firefly comic is coming out? May have been mentioned already but I didn't want to read through 60 pages.

...There's a comic? All I have is that Serenity TPB that you can read in 15 minutes.:huh:

[Abaddon]

Maybe it was slightly better but I don't think it's fair we say it blew it out of the water.

Chosen worked for Buffy like Not fade away worked for Angel. Chosen ended with hope and Not Fade Way ended with... well... no hope. :)

Not Fade Away made sense and overall did justice to the characters. Chosen did not.:csad:

Or if Eve survived, and what became of Lorne. I remember reading something about how they were thinking of having Willow appear in Season 6 and try to bring back Fred, or Wesley I forget.

Which probably wouldn't have worked with Fred being that her soul was destroyed when Illyria took over; when you think about it that's kinda said. On the shows, someone either goes to heaven or hell, Fred went no where.

From what I understand Fred was supposed to be slplit in half or something so she'd transform back and forth between herself and Illyria. Not really what to make of that. I loved Fred, but I thought the ambiguity and sense of belonging Illyria was looking for was very compelling.

1. I think she is dead.


Eve was supposed to become a regular in season 6.

[Sawyer]

This Idea just came to me, but what if the idea of Buffy the Animated series wasnt a total waste? I think that the scripts that were written should be used in comic form and, potentially, they could come up with new ones. What do you all think?

[Abaddon]

well I think most of the energy is being put into the season 7 comic right now. It's a shame since it was such a cool idea.:csad:

[Sawyer]

Dont know if you guys have heard this, but David Boreanaz (Angel) has been cast as the voice of Green Lantern Hal Jordan in the Justice League: New Frontier DTV, James Marsters (Spike) has been cast as Lex Luthor in the Superman: Doomsday DTV, and Adam Baldwin (Hamilton on Angel, and Jayne on Firefly) has been cast as Superman in the same movie.
Pretty awesome if you ask me.

[Abaddon]

I'm not going to ask you, but I agree.:o:up:

[Savage]

Wow, that is pretty cool. More members of Whedon's clique being cast in DC roles. :up:

[Sawyer]

Guys, FYI, the 10th anniversary of Buffy was last week. I didnt even realize that on March 3rd it was 10 years since Welcome to the Hellmouth. Its been a LONG time.

[Abaddon]

beat me to the bump.

we missed the anniversary.:csad::cmad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okeRBGYXXac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJOTKokm-_A

[Sawyer]

Aah, it was a good collective 12 seasons of the Buffyverse.
But I need MORE...

[Abaddon]

a good 10 1/2 for me, but that's neither here nor there.:o


at least we get the season 8 comic.

[Abaddon]

because Andrew is hilarious- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5BU-X5Ajsg

[Sawyer]

Wow, that second clip you posted was friggin epic.

[Sawyer]

Andrew: Come with me now, if you will gentle viewers, with a little tale I like to call "Buffy, Slayer of the Vampires"
Oh, wasnt Andrew the best..
Xander: I'm mentally undressing Scott Bakula. Thats a start, right?
Andrew: Captain Archer...

[Abaddon]

he was so gay. they should keep that in the comic.:o

[Sawyer]

It was a bit obvious.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Actually, it premiered on March 10, meaning that today is the tenth anniversary...

[Sawyer]

Are you sure, cause the booklet in the first season DVD of Buffy, it says Welcome to the Hellmouth aired March 3rd. Anyways, Happy Anniversary everyone!!!

[Abaddon]

not that it's reliable but wiki says March 10. Celebrate!

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Yeah, it says that in my booklet too. But I'm seeing it listed as March 10 on a few different websites, and a couple of websites are running "Anniversary" features today.

So I guess it's today. Eithe way, still damn sweet.

[Sawyer]

Long live the Slayer!!!!

[Abaddon]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/Cyrene3721/Buffy.jpghttp://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g10/kimhorner13/buffy.pnghttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g251/mismama1823/gang2.jpg

[Abaddon]

http://www.tv.com/ :)

[Warhammer]

Damn, I was 8 minutes late. :csad:
Yay!

[Abaddon]

Alright so in doing some wikipediaing the other day, I stumbled on this David Fury interview:
http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html


can you believe they didn't even intend to give Cordelia a send-off?! Crazy!:eek:

[Harlekin]

10 years? Gosh, I feel old at 18.

[Abaddon]

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BuffyScott/Buffy%20Icons/85abe464.png

[NotFadeAway]

I love both shows, but Im actually a bigger fan of Angel, and I think that puts me in the minority.

[Abaddon]

Not at all. Plenty of people prefer Angel.