The Ultimate Jossverse Thread

[Abaddon]

Discuss here all of Joss Whedon's great television series'.From Buffy, to Angel, to Firefly, the attempted Ripper mini series, and hell even the failed Buffy cartoon. Let us look back at some of the greatest tv making ever.


And of course every now and then I'll pop up with the occasional tv tidbit.:)


Here's a few to start of off:

*Oz(Seth Green) was originally supposed to be killed in the episode Passion.
*Darla(Julie Benz) was supposed to be killed by Angel at the end of Reprise
*Emma Caulfield(Anya) was planning on leaving Buffy in season 7.Her character would have been written out,however,once Emma found out that it would be the final season she decided to stay for the rest.Eventually leading to a very poor decision which I hate her for.:mad:

[The Question]

Dammit. There shoulda been a Buffy cartoon. That woulda been tight.



Oh, and Spike is the best.

[Abaddon]

Spike was cool.Then he sold out.

[The Question]

But then he got cool again in Angel.

[Abaddon]

I never cared for him much the same.:(:down

[PyroChamber]

Has anyone ever read the Angel comic book that tells what happened at the last fight in Not Fade Away, and if so is it any good?

[Abaddon]

The Angel comic book does not tell what happened at the end of Not Fade Away.

[PyroChamber]

Well damn, my mistake.

and when were they gonna do a Buffy cartoon?

[Abaddon]

its been talked about for about a year now.Do a google search and you should fin some more info on it,along with pictures.Most of the Buffy cast was to be part of it,except SMG who was to be replaced by the chick that voices Buffy in the games.

[Sawyer]

Oh I just recently got the first Whedon volume of Astonishing X-Men (because buffy and angel were great) and it was pretty kickass. I could definatly tell it was Whedon writing (mostly because Wolverine sounded exactly like Spike) but it was great.

[The Question]

Well, Spike was pretty obviously based on Wolverine.

[Abaddon]

No,Spike was based on Sid,of Sid & Nancy.

[The Question]

Reall? I don't know what that is. I always got Wolverine vibes from him.

[JLBats]

Yeah, some pretty heavy Wolverine vibes at points.

[lars573]

Reall? I don't know what that is. I always got Wolverine vibes from him.
Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols as in. Sid and Nancy was a movie about Sid and his girlfriend Nancy. Now that I think about it Drucilla is a lot like Nancy from that movie, spaced out crazy and wired.

[The Question]

Hmm. Aint that interesting.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought Spike was supposed to be based on Billy Idol, myself. I didn't like that Spike sold out, either, but he was pretty good in Angel. That actually surprised me; I thought two vampires with souls would've gotten redundant and boring, but nope.

Anyone watching Firefly on the Sci Fi Channel on Fridays now? I'd forgotten how unbelievably awesome the show was until now. I'm gonna buy the DVDs soon. I think, in the long run, Firefly is the Whedonverse show that entertained me the most.

[Abaddon]

I think Spike has a better sense of humor than Wolvie.

Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols as in. Sid and Nancy was a movie about Sid and his girlfriend Nancy. Now that I think about it Drucilla is a lot like Nancy from that movie, spaced out crazy and wired.

Thats exactly where the inspiration for the characters came from.

[lars573]

The biggest difference between Spike 'n' Dru and Sid 'n' Nancy (fashion aside) is that Joss flipped their hair colours.

[Abaddon]

heh.Joss does like to borrow from movies when creating villains.The Gentlemen looked like those guys from Dark City.

[Matthew_Murdock]

yeah and there were so many villains that ripped off of nasferatu its ridiculous.
Also, not having Xander as Buffy's love interest was a crime against humanity. They should make season 8 just to correct this fault.

[Abaddon]

She wasnt into Xander.He was a dorky,powerless,human.:confused:

[SuperFerret]

Also, not having Xander as Buffy's love interest was a crime against humanity. They should make season 8 just to correct this fault.

Not true. Guys like Xander, and myself, always have that one female friend that they want for years, but it never happens. :(

[JLBats]

One problem I had with Xander was that he basically doomed me. He was the guy on the show I expected to break out of his shell, become a more useful character. When he got the soldier memories, I was sure he would have a huge character arc where he became functional and useful. Kinda like I hope to do one day. But no, the soldier memories faded. WHAT THE ****?!!? And then he basically became old sit on the sidelines Xander, until his eye was crushed init's socket and he became slightly more useful. Luckily, I later got the character arc I was looking for in Wesley.

[Abaddon]

Similar situation with Fred,JL.Since her first appearances,everyones wondered how she fits into the group.Actually now tht I think about it,it was never made clear how she fit in.I loved her anyway.

[JLBats]

Well, she did start to get more useful towards the end, with Jasmine, and running her own science lab. Then she became Illyria, which was sad but opened up a lot of possibilties. Then they cancelled the show.

[Abaddon]

Illyria was a fascinating character.But what bothered me most about Season 5 is that no one but Angel acknowledge Cordelia's death.

[JLBats]

Yeah, that did bother me. It's morbidly funny watching the end of Your Welcome and realising that the gang is waiting to party with Cordy when she's dead. That'd be a bummer.

[Abaddon]

You'd think that at least Lorne would react.It sucks.I think they shouldve had a funeral scene at the beginning of the following ep. or something.

[The Question]

That would have been fitting.

[TheCorpulent1]

Not true. Guys like Xander, and myself, always have that one female friend that they want for years, but it never happens. :(
So true. I identified more with Xander because of that than anything else. That kind of thing is like my curse. Happens to me all the time. :o

Of course, Xander was also the wittiest of the group and managed to inspire just about everybody at some point.

[Harlekin]

Xander was definitely useful. He did have the crowning achievement of saving the world in Season 6.

Also, I don't think a funeral for Cordy would have fit, especially not since Smile Time was the next episode, but also because I thought it best that it happened off-screen. It was necessary to be viewed. A passing comment by all of them (especially Wesley) would have been good though.

[JLBats]

Xander was definitely useful. He did have the crowning achievement of saving the world in Season 6.

Also, I don't think a funeral for Cordy would have fit, especially not since Smile Time was the next episode, but also because I thought it best that it happened off-screen. It was necessary to be viewed. A passing comment by all of them (especially Wesley) would have been good though.

I believe the next episode was Why We Fight. The submarine episode. Then Smile Time.

Yeah, Xander was useful in a lot of ways, but I felt that compared to many of the others, he never really found a place in the group. Jimmy olsen Forever, I guess.

[Matthew_Murdock]

well, even smg said they needed more xander and that it made more since for buffy to go out with xander than for her to go out with spike, which is the only thing she's ever said in an interview that I absolutely 100% agree with.

[Matthew_Murdock]

Also, just to add to this, somebody on this thread said xander saved the world once. This is incorrect. Xander saved the world THREE TIMES in the course of the show. Once in prophecy girl by bringing buffy back to life, once in the zeppo and once in the season 6 finale. Thats half as many times as buffy and two more times than spike, who only saved the world once. OWNED.

[Harlekin]

All the other saves are more or less indirect, although they can still be attributed to Xander, but his direct saving the world happened once, and was the best one of them all actually on Buffy.

[The_Guyver]

I wish Xander had not lost an eye in season 7. Had he escaped Sunnydale unharmed, it would've capped off an unbelievable run of good luck. Think about it, all the ***** that went down and after the final apocalyptic battle culminating in the destruction of Sunnydale... Xander Harris, lord geek, is standing tall when many a bada$$ bit the dust, including at one point or another, Buffy (twice), Angel and Spike.

Alternatively, how sad would it have been if Xander was captured and tortured much like Spike was by The First. The twist being, he would've lost both eyes and his tongue, and basically being made to look identical to a Bringer. Buffy would then have confused him as one of them in the final showdown in Chosen, only to realise it was Xander after she had killed him in the heat of the battle. It would've been extremely sad if this was shot from Xander's point of view, him approaching her in hopes of being recognised and seeking protection, only for her to react by killing him. I thought this was where they were heading when I saw him lose an eye, I thought Caleb would capture him and use him to somehow get to the Slayer emotionally. Thank goodness it didn't happen, but it certainly would've made a huge impact if it had.

[TheCorpulent1]

That would've sucked. I was sad enough when Anya died, and she was just a secondary character.

[Happenstance]

I would have hated it if Xander had been killed off, he was always my fav character on the show. I always seemed to be hoping he'd be able to save the day infront of Buffy and co. this time so they would finally realise his worth.
Shame in the end that it seemed only Dawn and Caleb knew Xander was a great ally to have

[BAKERS_12]

One problem I had with Xander was that he basically doomed me. He was the guy on the show I expected to break out of his shell, become a more useful character. When he got the soldier memories, I was sure he would have a huge character arc where he became functional and useful. Kinda like I hope to do one day. But no, the soldier memories faded. WHAT THE ****?!!? And then he basically became old sit on the sidelines Xander, until his eye was crushed init's socket and he became slightly more useful. Luckily, I later got the character arc I was looking for in Wesley.


well he did save the day at the end of the 6th run . Remember the yellow crayon

[Abaddon]

In an alternate Chosen script Xander died saving Dawn.

[Happenstance]

He was also going to be the human side of Glory at one point when they were coming up with the consept for season 5.
Glory was also going to be helping the first in the last season but due to fans hating Glory so much they created Caleb instead

[PyroChamber]

Here's something I always wondered.....

When Willow and Tara were together it was ok to show them kissing because, of course, that's what two people that love each other do.

But when Willow got together with Kennedy it was almost like they were kinda effy about showing them kiss, and I was wondering why that might be?

Also, did anyone else know that they gave Faith and Spike last names after the shows were done?

[The Question]

They didn't show Willow and Kenedy because Kenedy sucked.

[Happenstance]

I didnt think they seemed iffy about Willow and Kennedy at all, if anything their kisses were longer. I do agree though, Kennedy never should have been paired up with Willow, it was too soon and just didnt seem necessary at all.


On another note I still think Xander should have ended up with Buffy in the end!

[Abaddon]

Here's something I always wondered.....

When Willow and Tara were together it was ok to show them kissing because, of course, that's what two people that love each other do.

But when Willow got together with Kennedy it was almost like they were kinda effy about showing them kiss, and I was wondering why that might be?

Also, did anyone else know that they gave Faith and Spike last names after the shows were done?


Faith LeHane I believe.I dont know Spikes.


I think the Willow/Kennedy thing was because Tara meant so much to Willow.It didnt have anything to do with the networks or anything,if thats what youre thinking.If you remember the kiss between Kennedy and Willow was very significant.


He was also going to be the human side of Glory at one point when they were coming up with the consept for season 5.

This is true.Tara was going to die,Willow wouldve went evil and joined Glory.Then she wouldve bled Dawn,and Sunnydale wouldve been sucked into the Hellmouth.The A.I. team wouldve also appeared.

Glory was also going to be helping the first in the last season but due to fans hating Glory so much they created Caleb instead

Not really.Plenty of fans loved Glory.They decided not to do it,because they felt it wouldve been a betrayal to resurrect a Big Bad from the dead.

[Abaddon]

Kennedy and Willow were a horrible match.No chemistry at all.Even worse is that Tara was only acknowledged for a few eps and then they made it seem like she didnt exist.Suddenly Willows afraid of sleeping with Kennedy because she's afraid she'll go evil?WTF?When did she turn into Angel?Did anyone else catch Willgelus,or am I missing something?

[Happenstance]

Not really.Plenty of fans loved Glory.They decided not to do it,because they felt it wouldve been a betrayal to resurrect a Big Bad from the dead.

Im just going on what Joss said in an interview ages ago

[JLBats]

Kennedy and Willow were a horrible match.No chemistry at all.Even worse is that Tara was only acknowledged for a few eps and then they made it seem like she didnt exist.Suddenly Willows afraid of sleeping with Kennedy because she's afraid she'll go evil?WTF?When did she turn into Angel?Did anyone else catch Willgelus,or am I missing something?

It didn't make sense within the show, but according to my cousin, sexual relations can influence Wicca powers... or somethin'.

[Abaddon]

Im just going on what Joss said in an interview ages ago


If Joss listened to the fans Kennedy wouldnt have been with Willow,and Chosen wouldve been two hours.Whats your source?

[Abaddon]

It didn't make sense within the show, but according to my cousin, sexual relations can influence Wicca powers... or somethin'.


But Willow is in control of those powers.She chose to go evil,the magics weren't controlling her.

[Happenstance]

If Joss listened to the fans Kennedy wouldnt have been with Willow,and Chosen wouldve been two hours.Whats your source?

Ive no link as i said it was ages ago. Im not defending any choices he made, im just stating what I read

[JLBats]

But Willow is in control of those powers.She chose to go evil,the magics weren't controlling her.

...Yeah, that makes sense. Never mind.

[Abaddon]

...Yeah, that makes sense. Never mind.


Don't ever question me again.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v34/Drakon/SHH/Old%20Smileys/mad.gif

[Happenstance]

Don't ever question me again.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v34/Drakon/SHH/Old%20Smileys/mad.gif

Good thing he wasnt actually questioning you :P

[JLBats]

Don't ever question me again.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v34/Drakon/SHH/Old%20Smileys/mad.gif

Now that I think about it, we should do that with more characters!

Xander can't have sex or he becomes an evil troll names Xangelus

Buffy can;t have sex or she becomes an evil zombie named Bufgelus.

Giles can't have sex or he becomes a creepy old man having sex named Gilegelus.

Gunn can't do it because he is impotent.

[Abaddon]

eh..?:confused::confused:


Good thing he wasnt actually questioning you :P


Quiet you.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v34/Drakon/SHH/Old%20Smileys/mad.gif

[Happenstance]

Does that mean all the other characters can go around humping like Bunnies? (Maybe not Bunnies for Anya of course :P)

If thats so then im glad you didnt add Fred to the no sex list :P

[Abaddon]

Imagine Wes having sex with Illyria!:eek:

[Happenstance]

I hope we arent thinking about this after the Angel finale, if so Wes is dead so that definately would be a disturbing image.

Although thinking about it we do tend to see a lot of dead people having sex in the Jossverse :P

[The Question]

Hey, I just realized something. When Spike was non corporeal, he could fight ghosts and other non corporeal beings. Does that mean he could ahve fought The First?

[Abaddon]

Probably not.:o

[JLBats]

Hey, I just realized something. When Spike was non corporeal, he could fight ghosts and other non corporeal beings. Does that mean he could ahve fought The First?

Probably two different levels of non corporeal, but it is possible.

[The Question]

Man, that would have been a sweet fight.

[Happenstance]

Im guessing it would have been a very quick fight, The First would be way too powerful for Spike

[Abaddon]

well the First can't physically affect reality,except through magic,so I just don't see it getting into a physical confrontation with Spike.

[Happenstance]

We dont really know what the First could do though do we, especially to none corporeal beings

[Abaddon]

We dont really know what the First could do though do we, especially to none corporeal beings


Good point.

[PyroChamber]

Faith LeHane I believe.I dont know Spikes.From what I read, Joss gave him the name William Pratt.

It's too bad that there aren't any shows being made within the Jossverse right now, at least none that we know of. This may sound strange but I'm interested in what they could have done with characters like Dana the psycho slayer from Angel.

Wasn't there talks about having a show about Giles?

[Happenstance]

Yeah there were talks of that after he left in season 6, never really came to anything. Shame the rumours of the Spike or Faith spin offs never came to anything either, I would have loved to see anything from the Jossverse back.

[JLBats]

I'm still holding out hope for TAS, even though I know it's suprisingly unlikely.

[PyroChamber]

Does anyone think that any of the Scoobies knew, or were informed, about Cordelia's death?

[Happenstance]

Its possible that Angel may have rang Giles or someone later after it happened but its hard to say as Angel Inc was on bad terms with the rest of them as it was

[JLBats]

Well, Cordelia hadn't seen some of them for more than five years, so I'm not sure how much it would matter, which sounds bad, but it's just real. Buffy only knew her for 3 years, wasn't friends with her for one of those years, and hasen't seen her for five. On the other hand, Willow and Xander knew her for a long time during childhood. It might matter more to them.

[Odin's Lapdog]

sorry to jump in here, but one thing always bugged me about buffy...

the super slayer idea they used to defeat adam was never called upon again...

The first thing i would have done after a confrontation with glory would be to get that super slayer out before i even had time to crap my pants. The use of that being would have solved so many problems and maybe made season baddies even more tougher than they would have been before...

i would have liked to see that idea used more...

buffy turning that bullet into doves is one of the scenes that stands out for me...


everyone complains about series four, but i kinda like it:o

especially if you consider all the tie ins with the first series of angel, which ****ing rules btw..

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked season 5 more for Angel tie-ins, since that's the season with the tie-in where Angel beats the living hell out of Riley. :p The Super-Slayer should've been the first idea on Buffy's mind after meeting the Ubervamp champion and Caleb, though. I can't understand why she didn't try that instead of just helplessly flailing against Caleb for like 4 episodes.

[JLBats]

sorry to jump in here, but one thing always bugged me about buffy...

the super slayer idea they used to defeat adam was never called upon again...

The first thing i would have done after a confrontation with glory would be to get that super slayer out before i even had time to crap my pants. The use of that being would have solved so many problems and maybe made season baddies even more tougher than they would have been before...

i would have liked to see that idea used more...

buffy turning that bullet into doves is one of the scenes that stands out for me...


everyone complains about series four, but i kinda like it:o

especially if you consider all the tie ins with the first series of angel, which ****ing rules btw..

It might not have been logical, but it would have been incredibly boring if every time someone confronted them, they just turned her into a super slayer.

[Odin's Lapdog]

I liked season 5 more for Angel tie-ins, since that's the season with the tie-in where Angel beats the living hell out of Riley. :p The Super-Slayer should've been the first idea on Buffy's mind after meeting the Ubervamp champion and Caleb, though. I can't understand why she didn't try that instead of just helplessly flailing against Caleb for like 4 episodes.
i always thought that happened in the fourth series of buffy, ya learn something new everyday (it's been a while since i've watched those earlier series)

super slayer should always be an option, to use it once and never again is such a waste, plus it ties in xanders character as being actually more useful than he is...

[Odin's Lapdog]

It might not have been logical, but it would have been incredibly boring if every time someone confronted them, they just turned her into a super slayer.
well it may not have always worked. she could have still been taken out or found it difficult to win in certain situations, like against caleb or glory

it would have also been used to emphasise how hardcore the villains were...

in my mind, no one series ending baddie is tougher than adam, cause buffy has not resorted to using that super slayer idea yet....

which is a shame.

[Happenstance]

i always thought that happened in the fourth series of buffy, ya learn something new everyday (it's been a while since i've watched those earlier series)

It was the fourth series coz Riley was on the run from the initiative when it happened. He intercepted a call for backup when Angel was taking out some of the initiative so Riley decided to go help

EDIT:

Infact the only appearence of Angel in series 5 was at Buffys mums funeral coz thats when the shows were getting ready to go on new networks. I mean after they switched it took ages for them to let characters appear on the other show.
Willow appeared at the end of season 2 of Angel to tell them Buffy was dead, by season 3 (new network now) they couldnt even say Buffys name on Angel to show his reaction

[Odin's Lapdog]

i had a feeling it was series four...

but when you haven't watched it in a while and people say otherwise, you tend to agree with them...

thanks for clearing that up happenstance...

:up:

[Abaddon]

The UberBuffy plan wasnt exactly foolproof.If you remember the next episode,"Restless",the First Slayer showed up and started killing them in their dreams.Adam isnt tough in comparison to villains like Glory,and the Mayor in his pure demonic form.

[Abaddon]

Does anyone think that any of the Scoobies knew, or were informed, about Cordelia's death?


I dont think its likely,but if Angel would have told anyone it'd be Willow.Its funny to think about when characters die on other shows.Like when Willow took Faith back to Sunnydale.By then Oz and Riley had left,Tara was murdered,and Joyce died of an aneurysm.I always wondered what the conversation between them on that trip was like.Especially considering Willow wasnt very fond of Faith.I imagine a lot of awkward silences.

[Happenstance]

Probably along the lines of:

"Soooooooooo, how was prison?....Glad you enjoyed it, oh yeah quite a few people have died or left from the show.....I mean Sunnydale Sunnydale! Cant think why I said show then" :P

[Doomed_hero]

Ok, here is the question that has been asked alot, but not in awhile. What does everyone think happen in the Alley in the final ep. of Angel?

[Abaddon]

They all died.

[Abaddon]

Probably along the lines of:

"Soooooooooo, how was prison?....Glad you enjoyed it, oh yeah quite a few people have died or left from the show.....I mean Sunnydale Sunnydale! Cant think why I said show then" :P


Faith: So,hows the magic thing going?
Willow: Good...sorta.
Faith: And the love life?
Willow: My last girlfriend died,and I flayed a guy alive.Then I went evil and tried to end the world.
Faith: Oh.
Willow:....
Faith:......
Willow: How was prison?
Faith: enlightening.
Willow: Oh,well thats great.
Faith: Yeah,you'd be surprise how fighting off lezzies can you give you perspective.No offense.
Willow: None taken.
Faith: .....
Willow: ......

[Happenstance]

Ok, here is the question that has been asked alot, but not in awhile. What does everyone think happen in the Alley in the final ep. of Angel?

Id say they either went down fighting or if a spin off/Angel tv movie is made then whatever that says happened, happened

[TheCorpulent1]

Wasn't there a comic about what happened, or are the minis that have come out since then prequels?

[Abaddon]

The minis dont address what happened.

[Matthew Fabb]

Id say they either went down fighting or if a spin off/Angel tv movie is made then whatever that says happened, happened

Maybe it might be addressed in the Spike tv movie. Nothing has been signed yet, but Joss Whedon wants to do it and has talked with Tim Minear to write and direct it (http://whedonesque.com/comments/7596). James Marsters wants to do it as long as it's in the next couple of years (afterwards he thinks he's too old to play an unaging vampire). Meanwhile WB has expressed interest in doing it. So it seems like it's only a matter of time for the 4 parties to get together and work out a schedule and sign a deal.

[Happenstance]

Ive only read the second issue but I did read what the comics would be about when they came out. All i know is they are set after the finale and Angel (possibly spike) survived and are in Romania

[JLBats]

I'd assume Illyria survived. Gunn died no doubt. He probably would have died anyway.

[Happenstance]

Yeah I always figured that Illyria would survive, I just dont think the comic mentioned that or if they did she simply wasnt transported to Romania aswell.

Its still such a shame that season 6 didnt happen because were gonna get Fred back

[JLBats]

Yeah I always figured that Illyria would survive, I just dont think the comic mentioned that or if they did she simply wasnt transported to Romania aswell.

Its still such a shame that season 6 didnt happen because were gonna get Fred back

Now we have to live knowing Wesley and Fred are pretty much definately dead, Gunn will likely die... it's nuts.

[Happenstance]

I was really annoyed when Wes was killed off. I understood perfectly why it was done and I thought it made really good television. I just thought the character had made amazing progress throughout the shows and I would have liked to be able to at least think in my mind that he survives at the end.

I mean my fav ever scene in Angel was when shot his "father" without hesitation when he pointed the gun at Fred. I just found that amazingly good tv

[JLBats]

I was really annoyed when Wes was killed off. I understood perfectly why it was done and I thought it made really good television. I just thought the character had made amazing progress throughout the shows and I would have liked to be able to at least think in my mind that he survives at the end.

I mean my fav ever scene in Angel was when shot his "father" without hesitation when he pointed the gun at Fred. I just found that amazingly good tv

Completely agree.

Somehow, in my head I still pretend he survived. Like... the knife he was stabbed with was a magical knife that absorbed his essence! He can come back. Or some cops heard the fight, came in, found Wesley basically dead, but managed to revive him. Then, Wes called for help from old friends or something and saved the rest of the group.

[TheCorpulent1]

I was upset when Wes died, but after thinking it over for a while, I realized that it was pretty much necessary for the character arc that had been set up for him. They completed his character arc from season 3 to season 5 and, after his story was done, he died. Wesley is "the other guy." He's not the hero. He doesn't live happily ever after. He doesn't get the happy ending. His life was a storm of pain and confusion that he tried to make the best of and his death was basically the same: taken out suddenly and painfully in the midst of a fight to ultimately save all of humanity. I say kudos to the Angel crew for having the balls to follow through on Wesley's story and give it its proper ending.

[Abaddon]

I too disliked the idea of Wes dying.I was a latecomer on the Angel-fan bandwagon,so when I started watching regularly I found it incredibly difficult to buy into the "new" Wes.I still remember the dorky,watcher from season 3 of Buffy.There were a few times I even laughed watching Wes give orders,and being taken seriously.Eventually I caught up on the Angel eps.,and I found Wes character arc very compelling.Alexis Denisov is a fine actor.I especially liked him in the season 3 ep.,I forget the title,but it was the one before Wes kidnaps Connor.




Ah,well he's dead now.I think his death very well done,and much as I hated to see it.

[Doomed_hero]

I felt Death wish, as already stated, was a perfect end to his character. Now Wes was my fav, but since Season 3 he has not truely been happy. The only time he was is when him and Fred where together. Wes was always faded to go out figting and fight the good fight. He went from a man bound by the rules of the council, to a ,amn who left those chains and found out how life can really be outside stories of evil. Yet threw all the loss, the greater good is what must be fought for. That stuck with him till the end. Its why he followed Angel, even if it meant his father dissaproving, why he stole Conner, cause he thought he was helping the child, and why in the end he did his best to put a dink in the armor of evil. Wes on the show to me was the character that was most like us. His arc, like Angel said, life may screw you over and throw obsticles in your way, but never stop fighting for what you belive in.

Wow that turn out longer then I thought. Guess we know who my fav, Whedonverse character is.

[Abaddon]

Funny how one of Wes' most admirable qualities,and at the same time one of his greatest flawsmlead to his death.That being,his desire to above all else,do what is best.Why a flaw you say?He thought it was best to alert the Council to what went on with Faith,which ultimately lead to her turn to evil.He thought it was best to take Connor away because Angel,though oblivious to the prophecy,might still be a threat to his child.He thought it was best to follow Angel and destroy the Circle of the Black Thorn,and he died.

[The_Guyver]

Has anybody here read Fray The Vampire Slayer?? I assume it's worth picking up since Joss himself wrote it, but is the conclusion final or is it left open-ended for a possible sequel??

Re: Uber-Slayer - I always thought they should've saved that for Glory, seeing as she's a Goddess, and used a weapon to destroy Adam, instead of the other way around. I know the hammer Buffy used was a God's weapon, but Uber-Slayer would've made for a cooler final battle, and a mystical sword or spear of some sort to impale Adam's nuclear heart would've done the trick.

[Happenstance]

If they had used the uber slayer to defeat Glory it would have made it a lot harder to explain why Buffy didnt make it up it time to save Dawn and have to sacrifice herself and as Buffy died in that episode we wouldnt have been able to see the consequences of doing the uber slayer spell aswell as the cheese guy

[Abaddon]

:up::up::up:


"I wear the cheese.The cheese does not wear me."



:D

[The_Guyver]

They could've just shown an exhausted Buffy as the spell wore off. Cheese guy could've been on ep 1 of season 6.

[Abaddon]

Youre joking right?:confused:

[Happenstance]

Theres no way they could have just shown an exausted Buffy. Seeing the 1st slayer wasnt just for show. For one it showed the price they paid for doing that spell and it showed Buffy learning that she is not simply the slayer and nothing else

[JLBats]

Does anyone regularly go to the Joss Whedon site Whedonesque? Joss occasionally posts, it seems awesome. Here's a thread he posted specifically:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/7502#more

[Happenstance]

Thats pretty cool, I always think its great when you get to actually talk to famous people and they take the time to do it

[JLBats]

Thats pretty cool, I always think its great when you get to actually talk to famous people and they take the time to do it

Yeah, it's great. Joss REALLY likes Veronica Mars, apparently. He even sent an email to creator Rob Thomas, full of compliments. Rumours are flying that Joss might write an episode.:):up:

[Abaddon]

THats hot.:eek::up::up:

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Has anyone read the IDW one-shot "Spike: Old Times" by Peter David?

It was pretty decent, but I have a feeling it's a continuity bender.

The story focuses on Spike and Halfrek, and it addressed the moment in the season 6 episode Older and Far Away, where Halfrek recognized Spike (the same actress who played Halfrek played Cecily in season 5's Fool for Love, and a lot of people speculated that they were one and the same).

Anyway, the issue takes place after Older and Far Away, but my issue with it is that it takes place in Los Angeles and Spike seems to have a soul which implies that it takes place during season 5 of Angel...but Halfrek was killed in the season 7 episode Selfless...hrm. Just somethin' that bugged me. Anyone else read it?

Speaking of the comics, has anyone else been reading Angel: The Curse? So far I like that they haven't exactly revealed anything that happened in the alley after Not Fade Away, but #3 has Angel reminiscing over people close to him who've died, and it only mentions Doyle, Cordelia, and Wesley, so that may imply that everyone survived. So far, I'm enjoying the mini, a LOT better than the writer's attempt to write my favorite cop Vic Mackey last year...

[Abaddon]

Havnt read it.And the reminiscing part may just be because those three (Doyle,Cordy,And Wes) were early members of Angel Investigations.Fred also died,and if he didn't mention her then....

[BT18]

Should people just give up all hope that he'll ever get this universe going again? I'm not up for reading books and stuff to find out what happens.

It's looking more and more like we'll never get any closure on what happens to everyone. Other than the ones who are dead that is.

[PyroChamber]

What do you think a Faith show would focus on besides vampire slaying and demon fighting? Maybe her relationship with Robin Wood?

[Happenstance]

We were never really supposed to get closure on the Angel finale, that was the point of it. The fact that evil will always be out there but you keep fighting anyway till the end.

As for a Faith spin off I dont think id like Wood to be in it, I was never that big of a fan of his character and liked him even less with Faith so id prefer the spin off to be her going from town to town doing good where she can while still trying to avoid the police

[The_Guyver]

Theres no way they could have just shown an exausted Buffy. Seeing the 1st slayer wasnt just for show. For one it showed the price they paid for doing that spell and it showed Buffy learning that she is not simply the slayer and nothing else

She didn't see the 1st slayer in the same ep she killed Adam, it was in the season 4 finale. What I said was they could've saved Restless for the third ep of season 6, after Buffy is resurrected.

[Happenstance]

The simple fact is that they didnt know what was going to happen in later series of the show so they do what they want when it can be used.

[JLBats]

She didn't see the 1st slayer in the same ep she killed Adam, it was in the season 4 finale. What I said was they could've saved Restless for the third ep of season 6, after Buffy is resurrected.So the Primal wouldn't have struck at Giles, Willow and Xander over the summer?

Nah... too many plotholes.

[BAKERS_12]

The ill fated Giles spinoff Ripper would have been well good

[Abaddon]

Yeah,we mightve had the chance to see Jenny Calendar again.:(







In a dream sequence of course.:o

[Abaddon]

We were never really supposed to get closure on the Angel finale, that was the point of it. The fact that evil will always be out there but you keep fighting anyway till the end.

Absolutely.:up:

As for a Faith spin off I dont think id like Wood to be in it, I was never that big of a fan of his character and liked him even less with Faith so id prefer the spin off to be her going from town to town doing good where she can while still trying to avoid the police

I agree as well.Wood was only interesting in the beginning when we werent sure if he was evil or not,afterwards he just got dull.I imagine he'd be helping Giles with the Watchers Council anyway.I like the idea of a Faith show,but I just find it hard to imagine her with her own group of Scoobies.I think it'd be best if she just had one side-kick,and maybe a Buffy alumni as the occassional guest.

[Harlekin]

I always really liked the idea of either an Oz and Xander on the road show or an Oz and Faith on the road show. The Oz and Faith show would probably be the most interesting though from a character perspective.

[Happenstance]

Just been watching Buffy season 7 again on dvd with the commentary. They were talking about the possible Spike and Faith spin off show which had been pitched, I know I would have liked to see that.

Thats basically why they had the scene in the basement with Spike and Faith talking about when they 1st met (Faith in Buffy's body), to see how the 2 worked together

[Abaddon]

Interesting.

[The_Guyver]

So the Primal wouldn't have struck at Giles, Willow and Xander over the summer?

Nah... too many plotholes.

I would assume it needed all four of them to manifest itself... but anyway, my point was I would've preferred the Buffy Uber-Slayer to take on Glory instead of Adam, I'm not speaking for anybody else or saying this is how it should have been done, it's just something I've always thought of.

[Happenstance]

Just finished watching "A Hole In The World" on dvd. I still think its probably the most sad episode Joss has ever done, Fred's character had really been growing on me and I liked her more than Cordelia so it was a big impact when she was killed off, even if she comes back as Illyria.

[JLBats]

Just finished watching "A Hole In The World" on dvd. I still think its probably the most sad episode Joss has ever done, Fred's character had really been growing on me and I liked her more than Cordelia so it was a big impact when she was killed off, even if she comes back as Illyria.

A Hole in the World was awesome, and it probably has one of my favourite episode titles.

[Doomed_hero]

Ya, I like what Spike said about the Whole in the world i that episode.

hey, everyone should list there fav Buffy or Angel episodes. Like your top 5, if you dont know the title just a description.

1. Angel vs. Spike: Highly emotional episode which dwells into Angel and Spike like nothing has before. It shows why Angel truely hates Spike, cause he mad him pure evil. "Dru syered me, but you made me a monster"

2. Ep. Where Wes kidnaps Conner and then Conner is taken into another demension. High emotion, Holts at his evil best, and set the tone for the character shift of Wesely.

3. Never Fade Away: The Last episode which reinstates what the show is all about, you cannot destory evil, but you can always fight for what you belive in.

4.Theres a Whole In the World: As stated before the saddest episode I have seen.

5.Season finale of season one: Angle cuts off linseys hand, Darla returns and the Propecy is discovered.

[JLBats]

1) Once More With Feeling: Just classic. An awesome episode through and through

2) Forgiving: Wesley's pain is just palpable

3) Not Fade Away: Epic. Plus we get to see how each character sums up their life

4) Apocalypse Nowish: Just sooo epic.

5) Innocence: Just soooo heartbreaking.

[Happenstance]

My favourite Buffy/Angel Episodes (In no particular order):

* Graduation Day Part II - Such an amazing episode, seeing all the students "de-robe" and take on the vamps and the mayor was just great.

* Apocalypse Nowish - Great special effects and fight scenes with a real epic feel to it as JL said

* The Girl In Question - I think this is possibly the funniest episode of Angel ever, the chemistry between Angel and Spike was the best ive seen and their rivalry with the Immortal over the years was hilarious.

* A Hole In The World - As I said before just one of the saddest and well written episodes.

* Hush - A very creepy episode simply due to the lack of speech and those damn gentleman demons

Other episodes that I loved:

Once More With Feeling, Not Fade Away, Lineage.....Im sure i'll come up with more as this thread goes on

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Well, I love too many episodes of both shows to just name a few, so I won't do that right now, but...

I always really liked the idea of either an Oz and Xander on the road show or an Oz and Faith on the road show. The Oz and Faith show would probably be the most interesting though from a character perspective.

Personally, I never thought that Oz could have carried his own show. I've seen it pitched before, having a show just about Oz, but I never saw it. Oz to me was a great supporting character and he was awesome, but just the way he was written on the show didn't seem like he had much room to expand from that. I don't think you could do an entire series with Oz as the centerpiece without destroying what made him so cool and likable in the first place - the fact that he was always just kind of there, and he didn't say anything unless he needed to. Just look at how different Angel from Welcome to the Hellmouth was from Angel from Not Fade Away.

Now, having him in a supporting role in another spin-off - Spike, Faith, Giles, whoever - would be perfect. I just don't see him as the lead.

Also, someone mentioned the Giles spin-off...that would have kicked ass and I'm sad they never got it off the ground. Would've been cool to see Giles on his own like that.

[Abaddon]

Best ep.?The Body
Fav ep.? Becoming-Truly epic.
On Angel? Reprise-I love Holland MAnners revelation to Angel at the end.

Some of my many other favorites-

Graduation Day-Pretty great.Especially Faiths showdown with Buffy,and in the second their dream "reconciliation".IT had a boatload of foreshadowing too.

The Gift-Another epic event.The show couldve easily made this the series finale.

Selfless-I love Anya,and this ep had a perfect blend of humor and tragedy.

Inside Out-Cordy is outed and the gang finds out theyve been played since before they couldve possibly imagined.I also like the scene where "Darla" and Cordelia fight for control of Connor,and he chooses Cordy.:(:(


The Girl In Question-I didnt love this ep,but I liked parts of it.The Angel and Spike stuff was hilarious,but it didnt really go well against the Wes/Illyria stuff,which I also loved.How haunting was it to see Illyria mimicking Fred to a tee,knowing she was really dead.

That Vision Thing-My oh my,how Cordy has grown.And Lilah proved herself to be far more vicious than Lindsey.


Loyalty-I enjoyed seeing Wes's struggle to do whats right,when things had gone into a very murky area.I think its one of Alexis Denisovs best performances.

[Matthew Fabb]

Should people just give up all hope that he'll ever get this universe going again? I'm not up for reading books and stuff to find out what happens.
I guess you missed my previous post about the Spike tv movie. Nothing has been signed yet, but Joss Whedon wants to do it and has talked with Tim Minear to writing and directing it (http://whedonesque.com/comments/7596). James Marsters wants to do it as long as it's in the next couple of years (afterwards he thinks he's too old to play an unaging vampire). Meanwhile WB has expressed interest in doing it. So it seems like it's only a matter of time for the 4 parties to get together and work out a schedule and sign a deal.

Joss Whedon has also talked about making other tv movies focusing on some of the other Buffy-verse characters (Willow, Faith, etc.). If the Spike movie is a success, the other tv movies are more likely to happen.

It's looking more and more like we'll never get any closure on what happens to everyone. Other than the ones who are dead that is.I think the episode works better leaving it as a mystery on what exactly happened. I mean we all want to know who survives, but I think how exactly they survive should remain a mystery.

[JLBats]

If you could do a spinoff, how would you do it?

I'd have a Spike spinoff, perhaps withFaith along for the ride. It takes place a while after Not Fade Away. Basically, Faith and Spike discover a prophecy pertaining to something that will happen at a museum in 7 days, somewhere in Britain. They discover a secret society, a breakoff from the Watcher's Council, that is operating from the museum. Basically, we follow Spike and Faith's adventures as the champions of this society.

[Abaddon]

Well Faith is not really an "along the ride" kinda person.She is a Slayer after all,so she'd want to be running the show.I could never see Spike holding his own show,its just not in his nature to be a leader.Maybe if he were alone,or had a wacky sidekick(Andrew).

[JLBats]

Well Faith is not really an "along the ride" kinda person.She is a Slayer after all,so she'd want to be running the show.I could never see Spike holding his own show,its just not in his nature to be a leader.Maybe if he were alone,or had a wacky sidekick(Andrew).

The fun of it, to me, would be the dynamic between the two, arguing over who is the sidekick and who is the hero and what not. Of course it'll have a strong "Scooby Gang" type group, it would suck with just Spike and Faith.

[Abaddon]

The fun of it, to me, would be the dynamic between the two, arguing over who is the sidekick and who is the hero and what not. Of course it'll have a strong "Scooby Gang" type group, it would suck with just Spike and Faith.


I agree with you there.It's interesting because both of them are usually drawn in comparison to Angel and Buffy,respectively.Both seem to operate on the pleasure principle,and both are trying to right the wrongs theyve done.I don't think they'd need a Scooby-type group.Maybe just one other human person or something.I dont like the idea of having too many scooby gangs going around.

[JLBats]

I agree with you there.It's interesting because both of them are usually drawn in comparison to Angel and Buffy,respectively.Both seem to operate on the pleasure principle,and both are trying to right the wrongs theyve done.I don't think they'd need a Scooby-type group.Maybe just one other human person or something.I dont like the idea of having too many scooby gangs going around.

Hmmm, it couldn't be a BIG one, but I think you'd need some really strong supporting characters. Maybe 2 or 3. No more than 3, anyway. I find that when I watch Buffy and Angel, it's never Buffy or Angel I'm really watching for, you know? Over the seasons, I've tended to be more interested in Wesley, Willow and other characters like that. It would sort of ground the show and round out Spike and Faith a little more.

[Abaddon]

If necessary I'd want to see some familiar faces as supporting players.There's a whole range of characters to draw upon for a spinoff-Gwen,Amy,Clem,Andrew,Harmony,Tucker,Groo,Wood,etc.

[JLBats]

If necessary I'd want to see some familiar faces as supporting players.There's a whole range of characters to draw upon for a spinoff-Gwen,Amy,Clem,Andrew,Harmony,Tucker,Groo,Wood,etc.

Bingo. I'd also like to see one or two new characters though, maybe a quiet, low self esteem type, non-confrontational... maybe something is up with his soul that makes him one of the most important factors in the war on demons... or something.

[Abaddon]

Here's some more Buffy facts to chew on.

*the bag Wood brings to Buffy in GEt it Done is the same bag filled with mud from Buffy's dream in Restless

*Tucker from The Prom was originally supposed to be the leader of the trio.When they couldnt get the actor back they instead made Warren the leader and created the character Andrew as Tuckers brother.Always made me wonder if it was Tucker that was meant to shoot Tara.

*Jenny Calendar was originally going to be named Nicky,but they opted to change it because it would cause confusion on the set(Nicholas Brendons nickname is Nicky).

[Happenstance]

Yeah I remember reading/hearing those facts. All good and interesting ones.

As for scoobies for a Spike and Faith spin off show I dont really think they would work anyway. They worked in Buffy because it started in school so they were just friends as you would expect. It worked in Angel because it was primarily a business so you would expect other characters in it.

Spike and Faith would be better off as loners, drifting from town to town helping out where they can. Hopefully running into Gwen coz she was damn fine!!!

[Abaddon]

Yeah I remember reading/hearing those facts. All good and interesting ones.

As for scoobies for a Spike and Faith spin off show I dont really think they would work anyway. They worked in Buffy because it started in school so they were just friends as you would expect. It worked in Angel because it was primarily a business so you would expect other characters in it.

Spike and Faith would be better off as loners, drifting from town to town helping out where they can. Hopefully running into Gwen coz she was damn fine!!!


I thought you were a chick.:(:o


And here's some Buffy facts you didnt hear about:


*Jenny,Amy,and Cordelia were all planned to appear in Restless.Things didnt work out.

*Glory was going to be called Cherry.

*Gwen Raiden was supposed to appear in the first episode of season 4,Deep Down,but they couldnt find room for her,so she appeared a few eps later.

*One of the Angel writers(I forget who) stated in an interview that when asked what one thing he regretted,was having Cordy ascend.

*Julie Benz(Darla),Mercedes Mcnab(Harmony),Elizabeth Anne Allen(Amy),and Charisma Carpenter(Cordelia) all tried out for the part of Buffy.

*Anya was originally supposed to appear in only two eps.,but they enjoyed Emma Caulfields portrayal so much they arrainged so that she could be a regular.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.:mad:

[PyroChamber]

I thought you were a chick.:(:o


And here's some Buffy facts you didnt hear about:


*Jenny,Amy,and Cordelia were all planned to appear in Restless.Things didnt work out.

*Glory was going to be called Cherry.

*Gwen Raiden was supposed to appear in the first episode of season 4,Deep Down,but they couldnt find room for her,so she appeared a few eps later.

*One of the Angel writers(I forget who) stated in an interview that when asked what one thing he regretted,was having Cordy ascend.

*Julie Benz(Darla),Mercedes Mcnab(Harmony),Elizabeth Anne Allen(Amy),and Charisma Carpenter(Cordelia) all tried out for the part of Buffy.

*Anya was originally supposed to appear in only two eps.,but they enjoyed Emma Caulfields portrayal so much they arrainged so that she could be a regular.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.:mad:hahaha......Cherry?

How ironic that Gwen's last name is Raiden, and she has electrical powers. Wow, looks like a lot of girls tried out for Buffy, just imagine Carpenter as Buffy and Gellar as Cordelia. What about a show about one of the potentials....or maybe not. I'd like to see them do something with Dana from Angel.

Also, after watching I Robot, You Jane; was I the only one who thought Jenny was hot?

[Happenstance]

I did know a few of those but im not particularly bothered if you know more little facts than me or not :P

[TheCorpulent1]

Also, after watching I Robot, You Jane; was I the only one who thought Jenny was hot?
Jenny Calendar? No way, as soon as she showed up and it became obvious that she was gonna be romantic fodder for Giles, I was like, "Giles, you STUD!" She's pretty hot.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

If I remember correctly, didn't Sarah Michelle Gellar actually land the part of Cordelia before trying out for Buffy and getting it?

[Harlekin]

Have to agree with Corp here. Jenny was pretty damn fine. Too bad Giles never got to tap it.

[JLBats]

Have to agree with Corp here. Jenny was pretty damn fine. Too bad Giles never got to tap it.

I want to pretend Giles and her did do it, I don't care if it's illogical, if he can do it with "Olivia"... then he did it with Jenny, damnit. Dig her up. Become a necrophile. I don't care. Just do it.

[Abaddon]

Jenny was ****ing fine.It's a tragedy Giles never tapped it.:(:(

I really liked her.She was spunky,and independent,things most of the other adult female characters didnt have.Her death changed the way I looked at Angel,and the show forever.I defy you to watch Passion and not feel a thing.Poor Jenny.Poor Giles.Damn Angelus.:mad:

[Happenstance]

Oh yeah she definately was one hot teacher, wish I had teachers like that!

Even though it was a shame to see her character go so early it definately showed the fact that Angelus was more than the average vamp and he was more evil than the rest aswell, reveling in every little bit even after the kill.

[Abaddon]

Everytime that ep. plays,I still watch hoping she'd get away from him,and I still feel that sense of horror at seeing what he does to her.

[Harlekin]

What I particularly found haunting from that episode, was the neck-snap. He didn't drink her blood, didn't give her one last torture. A quick snap, and as he had that pure look of extasy on his face.

Passion was a great ep. Poor Jenny. :(

[Lt. Figgnuts]

In the commentary, Joss Whedon says that the neck-snap is sort of an insult to Jenny, in the sense that it's sort of Angelus saying "I'm not even going to bother to drink from you."

In that commentary, Joss also said that they debated on whether or not to have Angelus kill Jenny Calendar with his human face or his vampire face. They eventually decided on vampire because they thought that fans wouldn't want to ever see Buffy kiss Angel's human face again.

Personally, I kind of wish they had gone with Angelus in human form. Would've been more morbid and creepifyin'.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Also, for those that are interested, a new Angel miniseries from IDW starts in November. It's called "Old Friends" and deals with Angel going back to Los Angeles and meeting up with old friends and enemies.

A new Spike one-shot is scheduled for January, as well.

[JLBats]

In the commentary, Joss Whedon says that the neck-snap is sort of an insult to Jenny, in the sense that it's sort of Angelus saying "I'm not even going to bother to drink from you."

In that commentary, Joss also said that they debated on whether or not to have Angelus kill Jenny Calendar with his human face or his vampire face. They eventually decided on vampire because they thought that fans wouldn't want to ever see Buffy kiss Angel's human face again.

Personally, I kind of wish they had gone with Angelus in human form. Would've been more morbid and creepifyin'.

Yeah, maybe I'm nuts, but I really wish he'd killed in her in normal face.

[Harlekin]

In the commentary, Joss Whedon says that the neck-snap is sort of an insult to Jenny, in the sense that it's sort of Angelus saying "I'm not even going to bother to drink from you."

In that commentary, Joss also said that they debated on whether or not to have Angelus kill Jenny Calendar with his human face or his vampire face. They eventually decided on vampire because they thought that fans wouldn't want to ever see Buffy kiss Angel's human face again.

Personally, I kind of wish they had gone with Angelus in human form. Would've been more morbid and creepifyin'.
Yeah I knew the reason and thought it added to the scene. I also kind've would've liked to see Angelus do it with the normal face. That'd just be horrifying.

[Abaddon]

What I particularly found haunting from that episode, was the neck-snap. He didn't drink her blood, didn't give her one last torture. A quick snap, and as he had that pure look of extasy on his face.

Passion was a great ep. Poor Jenny. :(


I agree.I still think back at that look of shock on her face when he caught up with her.Then "Sorry Jenny.This is where get off".My jaw literally dropped when he snapped her neck.Sheer horror.And then of course was the romantic scene with La Boheme playing when Giles found her.Sick.Too bad they couldnt make Angelus just as creepy on "Angel".


I think the normal face wouldve definitely made the scene more haunting.BUt what we got was pretty great as well.And it wouldn't have mattered much to me at the time,seeing as Jennys murder is what got me on the anti-Angel bandwagon.

[The_Guyver]

http://www.moviehole.net/news/6251.html

Very cool interview :up: Looks like we may get a Spike TV movie afterall.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

It looks to me like there were some pretty big spoilers for Serenity in there...probably should've been mentioned...

[Matthew Fabb]

It looks to me like there were some pretty big spoilers for Serenity in there...probably should've been mentioned...Yeah, some really MAJOR spoilers that everyone who hasn't seen the movie should avoid!

Here's the bit from the article where he talks about bringing the Buffy-verse back for those who want to avoid the Serenity spoilers:
"Angel", he says, didn’t deserve to be axed when it did. Though going on five seasons, Whedon feels it still had some more oil in the engine – and could’ve gone for a while longer. Still, it’s another series that might have another life, hints Whedon.

“I mostly miss all the people [there], but if things go the way I hope they do – I might not miss them as much”, he says, raising an all-telling eyebrow.

It’s rumoured that Whedon’s looking to bring the character of Spike (played by James Marsters on Buffy and Angel) back for a telemovie, and he’s happy to validate that. “I’m talking in reference to that…..and possibly more”, he smiles. “I can only teasingly hint unfortunately until it’s got backing and we’ve got a schedule and a contract. I have been talking to some of the actors, writers, and some executives and are trying to put something together - - but it’s not happening fast. [But no] I haven’t left the Buffyverse behind”.So not only a Spike tv movie, but possibly more!! A series of tv movies like Whedon was talking about ages ago or something else?

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Yeah, some really MAJOR spoilers that everyone who hasn't seen the movie should avoid!


They didn't come right out and say anything, so I'm just going to turn a blind eye and pretend I didn't see it...:(

Damn, I was trying to stay as spoiler-free as possible...

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Too bad they couldnt make Angelus just as creepy on "Angel".

Right. Angelus was my favorite Buffyverse villain, but his appearance in Season 4 of Angel was just NOT the Angelus that I know and love to hate, y'know?

[JLBats]

Right. Angelus was my favorite Buffyverse villain, but his appearance in Season 4 of Angel was just NOT the Angelus that I know and love to hate, y'know?

He was good, but he was too damn close to your heart by then, you know?

Although, in season 1 when he became Angelus for a bit at the end of an episode... that was DAMN good.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

He was good, but he was too damn close to your heart by then, you know?

Although, in season 1 when he became Angelus for a bit at the end of an episode... that was DAMN good.

Angelus from the end of that season 1 episode (I believe it was Eternity) is the way he should've been written in all of the season 4 episodes he appeared in.

[JLBats]

Angelus from the end of that season 1 episode (I believe it was Eternity) is the way he should've been written in all of the season 4 episodes he appeared in.

Him squirting the blood into her mouth was awesome. He was a bit too laid back in season 4.

[Harlekin]

I still liked Angelus when he was in the cage, a bit Hannibal like and when fighting Faith. Beyond that, he was a tad annoying, but still cool.

[Doomed_hero]

I liked his mind games while he was in the cage, I thought that was great. And his fight with Faith was good. Angelius to me is great when he is playing mind games.

[Abaddon]

Yeah,the mind games were fun.


ANGELUS: I guess Fred didn't quite see it that way, huh? Wow. You do a chick a favor, you think she'd be grateful, but no. Mm-mm. She still goes for the broody smart guy, all mysterious and tortured. I guess, when you think about it, for the first time in your life, you just weren't dark enough.

[Doomed_hero]

Ya I like what he said to Conner about how he slept with a women who just months earlier was changing hs diapers. I thought that was real messed up.

[Abaddon]

The Connor/Cordy thing was icky.

[Doomed_hero]

ya, that was the one thing I didnt like on Angel. I remeber that episode was really good, and then that happen and it was just wrong.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I still liked Angelus when he was in the cage, a bit Hannibal like and when fighting Faith. Beyond that, he was a tad annoying, but still cool.

The problem with Angelus, especially in the cage, is that he was too talkative.

Which isn't necessarily a problem.

But it was the WAY he was talkative. He was over-the-top, loud, obnoxious, and made WAY too many sex jokes. It just didn't FEEL like the Angelus of old, you know?

[PyroChamber]

Angelus from the end of that season 1 episode (I believe it was Eternity) is the way he should've been written in all of the season 4 episodes he appeared in.I always thought the first real appearence of Angelus was near the end of "School Hard" in season 2, when Angel pretended to have Xander captured and he was talking to Spike about the slayer.

Also, for anyone in the Chicago area (myself included), I just found out that this saturday and sunday will be the last time FOX will show Buffy and Angel. It's now being replaced by Alias and The Twilight Zone (the UPN version).

[cyrus02pso]

i wonder how long it will be until E will do a thing on them... hmm

anyways, does anyone know what the 5th season would have originoly been like had they not cancled the show?

[Harlekin]

The exact same minus Wesley's death is how I heard it, cyrus.

Beyond that, I really didn't mind Angelus in the cage. Its how I had envisioned him a bit, a real hunter being caught. His words hit home everytime. When he got out is when the OTT-ness became irritating.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

i wonder how long it will be until E will do a thing on them... hmm


I want to say someone did a special on Buffy and Whedon just before Buffy's seventh season premiered. I don't know if it was E!, but SOMEONE did...it was on one of the DVD sets too, either Six or Seven.

anyways, does anyone know what the 5th season would have originoly been like had they not cancled the show?

The exact same minus Wesley's death is how I heard it, cyrus.

I think they would have ended up going with a less "climactic" season finale. There was no way they were going to move them out of the Wolfram and Hart offices that early if they had more episodes - firstly, I believe one reason the change was made was to facilitate a budget cut that they got at the end of Season 4. Secondly, I don't think they'd gone as far as they'd wanted with the "What are the Senior Partners planning?" story.

I've read too, however, that Season 5 was always going to end that way, and that some of the writers wanted Season 6 to be a "Mad Max" style, post-apocalyptic world, but they wouldn't have been able to do it because it'd be too expensive.

Personally, I'm glad that they never got the chance to get that far with that idea. I think it would have ruined the show and maybe the whole Buffyverse, IMO.

[cyrus02pso]

I've read too, however, that Season 5 was always going to end that way, and that some of the writers wanted Season 6 to be a "Mad Max" style, post-apocalyptic world, but they wouldn't have been able to do it because it'd be too expensive.

Personally, I'm glad that they never got the chance to get that far with that idea. I think it would have ruined the show and maybe the whole Buffyverse, IMO.

that would have been kinda kool though... seeing angel or spike finaly get the shanshu and what not but if they were going to do things they way they did you would think that the circle of the black thorn would have been more introduced... i know all of the memebers we had seen all over the season but still it seems like more of an afther thought and just bringing in every evil guest they could think of...

[jdogg willie]

Joss isn't done with the Buffyverse.

With a Spike tele-movie in the works, and Whedon talking to the other cast members, there may very well be other tele-movies.
'Oz the Werewolf' could be cool, Oz traveling the world, maybe join a werewolf occult. Although Seth Green has alot right now; Family Guy, Robot Chicken, and an occasional cameo on 'Greg the Bunny' at the IFC Channel.
'Giles the Warlock' has some very good potential I think.
'Willow the Lesbian Witch' doesn't sound interesting to me at all.
Xander Harris, there is nothing you can do with him, and Dawn, IMO, the lamest character in the whole series.

[Abaddon]

I've heard that season 5 was supposed to have Fred return in some way as the Clark Kent to Illyria's Superman.Mightve been interesting,but I'd prefer to see Illyria develop as an independent character and deal with humanity.


The problem with Angelus, especially in the cage, is that he was too talkative.

Which isn't necessarily a problem.

But it was the WAY he was talkative. He was over-the-top, loud, obnoxious, and made WAY too many sex jokes. It just didn't FEEL like the Angelus of old, you know?


What bothered me most is how they insisted that Angelus and Angel were disparate beings.Angelus is Angel without a conscience.Thats the only difference.It just seemed bizarre having them regard each other as different people.I hated the whole fight scene between them in Orpheus.:down

[Lt. Figgnuts]

What bothered me most is how they insisted that Angelus and Angel were disparate beings.Angelus is Angel without a conscience.Thats the only difference.It just seemed bizarre having them regard each other as different people.I hated the whole fight scene between them in Orpheus.:down

Yes! Thank you. Angelus is merely Angel without inhibitions. Angel would LOVE to maim, torture, and kill, but his consience stops him from going hog wild.

I've heard that season 5 was supposed to have Fred return in some way as the Clark Kent to Illyria's Superman.Mightve been interesting,but I'd prefer to see Illyria develop as an independent character and deal with humanity.

I've heard something similar, but I heard that Illyria and Fred would have been split into two completely seperate beings. Amy Acker would have played dual roles as both Fred and Illyria.

If Angel and Angelus were two seperate entities, Angel would have no reason to feel remorse for the things Angelus did, because it wasn't really him.

that would have been kinda kool though...

I wouldn't have liked to see the post-apocalyptic desert world thing, honestly. Part of the reason the shows are so cool is that the events could theoretically happen in your own backyard...it takes place in a real world.

'Oz the Werewolf' could be cool, Oz traveling the world, maybe join a werewolf occult. Although Seth Green has alot right now; Family Guy, Robot Chicken, and an occasional cameo on 'Greg the Bunny' at the IFC Channel.
'Giles the Warlock' has some very good potential I think.

Personally, I don't see an Oz show working...for my thoughts on that, skip back a couple of pages. An Oz tele-film, MAYBE, if they had a good story and maybe another Buffyverse alum.

I've been wanting a Giles series/tele-movie since I can't remember. Maybe not him as a warlock, but him kicking ass in that totally awesome British way that only Giles can.

[Harlekin]

VOICE-OVER:
This summer, it's the ultimate roadtrip movie.

SCENE: Shots of the Oz-van riding down a road through the desert, than a shot inside the van of them rocking out to some music.

VOICE-OVER:
He's a werewolf.

SCENE: A shot of Oz standing up in a circle of people, very support-group like.

OZ
I'm Oz, and I'm a werewolf.

ALL
Hi Oz.

VOICE-OVER:
He's not much of anything.

SCENE: Shot of Xander in a pirate costume at fast food place.

XANDER
I'm a pirate... yarr.

VOICE-OVER:
And they are the best of friends.

SCENE: Inside the van again.

XANDER
Batman!

OZ
Superman!

XANDER
Batman!

OZ
Superman!

VOICE-OVER:
This is a buddy movie you won't want to miss.

SCENE: Various shots of the van, Oz and Xander stopping at places, and meeting women, as well as a suitcase with money.

VOICE-OVER: Starring Seth Green and Nicholas Brendon.

SCENE: Shots of Seth and Nicholas with the typical prison-mugshots with the the numbers and stuff.

VOICE-OVER:
Coming to a theatre near you. Rated PG-13 and over.

SCENE: Oz roaring as a werewolf, and Xander stepping back.

XANDER
Down boy! Down!

SCENE: Werewolf Oz jumps.
FADE TO BLACK.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I'd pay to see that.

[Harlekin]

If they ever said to me:

"You're writing and producing this."

I'd do it for free.

[Mike]

The zeppo was the best episode. I started watching Buffy because of xander, a very relateable character.

[JLBats]

The zeppo was the best episode. I started watching Buffy because of xander, a very relateable character.

Zeppo was pretty good.

[Sawyer]

I think it would be great if they did telemovies for other characters too, sort of acting like pilots for what their own show would be like, and possibly one, or mabye more, of them getting their own show. For example:
Giles: A warlock/Excorsist/House-cleaner (Whoever gets rid of poltergeists) working in London.
Riley: Military Man/Monster killer.
Willow: Powerful witch trying to keep her dark side in check while training the many slayers.
Gunn: Keeping Angels dream alive by trying to keep the cities safe from demons.
^Spikes could be the same.
Illyria: Trying to deal with the fact that she is not as powerful as she once was and that she lost her only friend.

[Abaddon]

Zeppo was good.I liked Bewitched,Bothered,and Bewildered a little better...or actually,alot better.I mean who didnt love Buffy's "surprise" for Xander.;)

[Mike]

I never understood why Buffy and Xander didnt hook up. it just seems right for those to be together. I didnt really buy the relationship Xander had with Anya or the relationship Buffy had with Spike. Both relationships were stale rehashes. Anya was sort of a cordy rip off and Spike "was" like the poor man's Angel.

[Happenstance]

I always wanted Xander and Buffy to hook up aswell, he always stuck with her and obviously cared deeply

[TheCorpulent1]

Nah, I never really wanted them to get together. First off, I always thought Xander deserved better than Buffy. Second, it would've ruined the whole tone of the show if they fell into the stupid, totally unrealistic cliché where the good, nice guy gets the girl. The nice guy never gets the girl. I thought Buffy hooking up with Spike always made the most sense. He definitely seems more like her type.

I wanted Xander and Willow to stop beating around the bush, though. Right up until Oz came along, then I was like screw Xander, Oz rules. :)

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I never understood why Buffy and Xander didnt hook up. it just seems right for those to be together. I didnt really buy the relationship Xander had with Anya or the relationship Buffy had with Spike. Both relationships were stale rehashes. Anya was sort of a Cordy rip off and Spike "was" like the poor man's Angel.

I heard on one of the commentaries that they initially planned for Buffy and Xander to get together, and there were a lot of potential hints dropped along the way...but in the end, they decided to go with Spike.

[JLBats]

I found it interesting that the only relationship that went out alive was the Kennedy-Willow one.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Well, as much as I hate Kennedy, if anyone deserved to come out happy it was Willow.

[Harlekin]

Nah, I never really wanted them to get together. First off, I always thought Xander deserved better than Buffy. Second, it would've ruined the whole tone of the show if they fell into the stupid, totally unrealistic cliché where the good, nice guy gets the girl. The nice guy never gets the girl. I thought Buffy hooking up with Spike always made the most sense. He definitely seems more like her type.

I wanted Xander and Willow to stop beating around the bush, though. Right up until Oz came along, then I was like screw Xander, Oz rules. :)
Corpulent has summed up my thoughts on the matter. I was a tad more of a Xander/Cordy fan but still...

[Happenstance]

I wanted Xander and Willow to stop beating around the bush, though. Right up until Oz came along, then I was like screw Xander, Oz rules. :)

Well Willow never really did stop beating around the "bush" did she? :p

[JLBats]

Well Willow never really did stop beating around the "bush" did she? :p

I wish it had been more graphic:o

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, as much as I hate Kennedy, if anyone deserved to come out happy it was Willow.
I liked Kennedy. I never understood why everyone hated her so much. It was kind of abrupt that she and Willow got together, but it didn't seem like any kind of affront to what she and Tara had or anything. I was always puzzled by the abject hatred for Kennedy.

[Happenstance]

I never really hated Kennedy as a character but I didnt really like her getting thrown together with Willow.

It felt way too soon and I had mostly thought (I dont know about anyone else with this) that Willow was mostly attracted to Tara for who she was instead of the fact she was an attractive women (occassionally :p ). So I didnt see the need for her to get together with another women.

[Abaddon]

Xander and Buffy?Ech.I just don't see it.He's not her type.Its as simple as that.With all that we've learned about Buffy,how could she possibly be attracted to Xander?


Kennedy and Willow had no chemistry.It just seems like they were thrown together for the sake of being thrown together.And Willow never got the chance to get over Tara,and the events surrounding her death. I don't think it was ever made clear that Willow understood that Warren didnt deserve to die.I think it wouldve been interesting if The First taunted Willow,as either Tara or Warren.As Tara it would talk about how Warren deserved to die,and how people like him shoould pay(perhaps to goad her into killing Spike).And as Warren it would pick at her nerves by mentioning how much he enjoyed killing Tara,and about how her friends tried to stop her from giving him what he deserves.


I never understood why Buffy and Xander didnt hook up. it just seems right for those to be together. I didnt really buy the relationship Xander had with Anya or the relationship Buffy had with Spike. Both relationships were stale rehashes. Anya was sort of a cordy rip off and Spike "was" like the poor man's Angel.


um Anya wasnt a Cordy rip-off,and Spike is nothing like Angel.I couldn't disagree more.:confused::down

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Spike's kinda like Angel in that he's a vampire who used to be among the baddest of the bad, got a soul, fell for a Slayer, and became a total pussy. So they're kinda alike. ;) Seriously though, in seasons 6 and 7 I couldn't stand Spike. He really did come off like a neutered Angel. While Angel was allowed to move on from being a simpering crybaby who constantly whined over how he and Buffy could never be together in his own series, Spike, in season 6, basically took up right where Angel left off in season 3.

[Abaddon]

You mean 7.Season 6 we were treated to abusive,though somtimes caring and affectionate,Spike and his sadomasochistic sexual appetites.Oh,and then there's the attempted rape.Beautiful.:rolleyes:



Season 7 we had simpering Spike.Not too much like Angel.More annoying actually.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it was much more pronounced in season 7. In season 6, there were still Angel overtones, though. He was still a bad vamp trying to be good out of his overarching desire to prove to Buffy that he was worthy of her. He just failed miserably because he didn't have a soul.

[Abaddon]

Nah,even then I didnt see any resemblance to Angel.Angel tended to be much broodier.Spike was still a wise-ass who only fought demons because he couldn't hurt humans.Then his desire for fighting grew when he fell in love with Buffy.

[Mike]

Xander and Buffy?Ech.I just don't see it.He's not her type.Its as simple as that.With all that we've learned about Buffy,how could she possibly be attracted to Xander?


Kennedy and Willow had no chemistry.It just seems like they were thrown together for the sake of being thrown together.And Willow never got the chance to get over Tara,and the events surrounding her death. I don't think it was ever made clear that Willow understood that Warren didnt deserve to die.I think it wouldve been interesting if The First taunted Willow,as either Tara or Warren.As Tara it would talk about how Warren deserved to die,and how people like him shoould pay(perhaps to goad her into killing Spike).And as Warren it would pick at her nerves by mentioning how much he enjoyed killing Tara,and about how her friends tried to stop her from giving him what he deserves.





um Anya wasnt a Cordy rip-off,and Spike is nothing like Angel.I couldn't disagree more.:confused::down Hmmmmmm Anya, a blunt female character who speaks her mind in a rude manner not really knowing that sometimes her honesty may hurt peoples feelings........!!!COUGH CORDY COUGH!!!! Oh and Spike, do I really have to explain anything, come on. Vampire bad boy with a soul who falls for the slayer, who most of Buffy's friends seem to hate.:confused: But about Xander, I half agree with you that Buffy and Xander wouldnt seem right together...............In high school. It would seem out of character if they got together in high school but later down the road it just seemed destined. Buffy was looking for someone strong but fail to realise that Xander has been the strongest out of all of her boyfriends. Saved the world 3 times, fought a crap load of demons, saved Buffy's life, mental and probably physical abuse from his pops, horrible luck with the ladies/demons, got his eye poked, anya getting killed, and much more, but still manages to crack a few jokes here and there.........Oh and he's just human :eek:

[Sweeney Todd]

Well, according to Mutant Enemy, Buffy became a globetrotting party girl shacking up with demonic Casanovas in Italy.

I try to reconcile this with the girl we met in the pilot and it makes me wonder 'WTF happened??'

[Mike]

Well I just read on the IMDB forums that there is a Angel and Spike TV movie in the works. The link is on some BBC website, I cant give you the link because if you go to it it will take you to another part of the website. But go check out the imdb Angel forums for more info, if you can get it.

[Harlekin]

Anya was basically what Cordy could have been on Buffy. Cordy never had a place in Buffy, she was a real outsider and just there to be hot and for a time be Xander's boyfriend. Before and afterwards she didn't even deserve a spot on the opening credits IMO. Anya was much more a group person, and made the Cordy-traits likeable. There were differences, but also similarities.

Spike became an underdeveloped Angel in the first half of S6 and S7. Not just the soul thing, but like Corp pointed out, the bad boy trying to be good for Buffy. Heck, you could maybe even classify Spike's actions in the later episodes of S6 as his Angelus period.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I think it wouldve been interesting if The First taunted Willow,as either Tara or Warren.As Tara it would talk about how Warren deserved to die,and how people like him shoould pay(perhaps to goad her into killing Spike).And as Warren it would pick at her nerves by mentioning how much he enjoyed killing Tara,and about how her friends tried to stop her

In the episode Conversations with Dead People, Willow's "conversation" was supposed to be with Tara, not the girl that died in Help. Supposedly, Amber Benson was approached, and she turned the role down because of the way The First/Tara was portrayed in the episode.

You mean 7.Season 6 we were treated to abusive,though somtimes caring and affectionate,Spike and his sadomasochistic sexual appetites.Oh,and then there's the attempted rape.Beautiful.

I hated Spike in the top half of Season 6. He was pretty much the same ol' Spike (at least the Spike from Season 5) at the bottom half, but once he and Buffy started goin' at it, he was pretty much relegated to being Buffy's sex-*****, and that bugged me.

Season 7 we had simpering Spike.Not too much like Angel.More annoying actually.

The way they handled Spike in Season 7 kind of irked me, too. After I watched Grave (the Season 6 finale), I was worried. "Oh, ****, they're gonna turn Spike into an Angel-clone." Imagine my immense surprise when, in the Season 7 premiere Lessons, Spike was BAT**** INSANE. "Aw, ****! The soul drove him crazy."

Nope. It was The First driving him insane, and apparently the soul had no part in that. Once they got him out of the basement, he was the Spike of old.

I would have really enjoyed it if Spike's sanity was something that was slowly regained over the course of the season. Even if The First's torture WAS making him crazy, his soul should have had a part in that too. Once he was out of the basement, I would have liked to see him more coherent, but still pretty bonkers. That way, when Spike becomes Spike again, it's much more satisfying because you KNOW he didn't just "get over" his soul.

[Happenstance]

Well I think the soul did play a part in the insanity, I doubt the first would have been able to get to him nearly as much as it did if he didnt have one. I mean the first probably showed up as loads of people Spike tortured and killed over the years before we saw him when he was already insane.

Anyway im glad they went back to the Spike of old for series 5 of Angel. Great line where Angels talking about how he spent decades coming to terms with his soul and what he'd done whereas Spike just spent a few weeks down in the basement and then was fine :p

[Harlekin]

I agree that I would've preferred Spike being insane a lot longer. I really liked that phase. They should'nt have bothered with the First as it is beyond Conversations with Dead People. Also, I heard Amber didn't decline just on the way Tara was portrayed, but because she felt that her re-appearance would be too hard on the audience and the character of Willow.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Well I think the soul did play a part in the insanity, I doubt the first would have been able to get to him nearly as much as it did if he didnt have one. I mean the first probably showed up as loads of people Spike tortured and killed over the years before we saw him when he was already insane.

You're right, but it seems like as soon as they got Spike out of the high school basement, he was pretty much fine.

I agree that I would've preferred Spike being insane a lot longer. I really liked that phase. They should'nt have bothered with the First as it is beyond Conversations with Dead People. Also, I heard Amber didn't decline just on the way Tara was portrayed, but because she felt that her re-appearance would be too hard on the audience and the character of Willow.

I REALLY liked the idea of The First as the main villain at the start of that season.

A non-corporeal villain that can take the shape of anyone dead? That has SO much potential - both from a psychological standpoint, and as an excuse to bring back old characters.

I kind of feel like that potential was wasted. It was utilized a few times, yes, like Lessons, Conversations with Dead People, and some others, but towards the end it just kind of stuck to posing as Buffy, and that kind of bugged me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Anya was basically what Cordy could have been on Buffy. Cordy never had a place in Buffy, she was a real outsider and just there to be hot and for a time be Xander's boyfriend. Before and afterwards she didn't even deserve a spot on the opening credits IMO. Anya was much more a group person, and made the Cordy-traits likeable. There were differences, but also similarities.
Cordelia's the hottest boy I've ever seen. :eek:

[PyroChamber]

Am I the only person who thinks Season 7 was better once the Potentials showed up?

Not that I liked the potentials, but it was more like once they showed up there was now a solid story to go on; because in the first few episodes it's almost like they were going all over the place.

[Harlekin]

Cordelia's the hottest boy I've ever seen. :eek:
You didn't know Xander was gay? :p

No, okay, I admit, I made a mistake, and if she ever turned out to be a guy (with woman parts), I'd be gay, because she's very hot.

Onto stuff that actually matters :p:

I agree that the First was great from a psychological point, but not in the corporeal, fighting the bad guy sense. It worked a bit with the Ubervamp, but afterwards they messed up. I consider everything good (even the potentials) up till she beats the Ubervamp. After that it all went downhill and the focus was way too much on the potentials.

One thing I always would've liked to have seen was a change in that Conversations with Dead People episode, that they had originally planned, Xander getting the First as Jesse. I would've even minded if that had replaced the Willow-Tara bit, but rather the Dawn-Joyce bit since that ultimately served no purpose and because of it, it's the one episode of Buffy that Xander did not appear in.

But the idea of Jesse talking to Xander after 7 years. A full-on: "You killed me, and this was set into motion. These last 7 years, is it right? What you've seen, what you've done. Was it worth it? Was it worth killing your best friend for."

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I would have loved to see a Xander-Jesse conversation, especially because they really didn't focus too much (at all, really) on how Xander and Willow felt about Jesse's death outside of Welcome to the Hellmouth.

I think a big problem with Season 7 was that they "blew their load" too soon. The ending scene of Lessons was a GREAT taste...but after that they started setting things up way too quickly in my opinion. It felt like there were some patches of the season where they just didn't know what to do - and thus we got batches of episodes where The First was mysteriously "in remission" or "hiding out," which just didn't make any sense to me.

I liked the idea of the Turok-Han, but the problem with that was when they decided to bring in the idea of the Army of Turok-Han - a good idea in theory, but it led to an eventual continuity error in the fact that if ONE Turok-Han almost beat Buffy to death, an ARMY of them surely would have slaughtered Buffy and her army of completely inexperienced, newly minted Slayers.

It's hard to say what could have made Season 7 better than the "meh" that we got. Make Spike crazy longer? Introduce Caleb sooner? Reintroduce the First later? Who knows.

[Mike]

They screwed up Season 7 completely. Why use "The first" if you're not going to use the most important people that mattered to the scooby gang? Yeah there should of been a Jesse and Xander, Buffy/Joyce, Willow/Tara, Giles/ (forgot the chicks name....the one Angelus killed) convo,with Tara being the appearance "The First" stays as the most. If you're going to use "The First" as the big bad atleast have the actors come back.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Well, as much as I've *****ed and moaned about it already, the actors have to want to come back to do the show...

[Matthew Fabb]

Well, as much as I've *****ed and moaned about it already, the actors have to want to come back to do the show...
It's only Sarah Michelle Gellar and David Boreanaz who aren't interested in doing any more Buffy-verse parts (maybe outside a small cameo). Most of the other actors have expressed interest at one point or another.

Meanwhile Joss Whedon keeps talking about bringing the Buffy-verse back to life:

From: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?category=0&id=32494
Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, told SCI FI Wire that he definitely plans to revisit the "Buffyverse" in a future, unspecified TV project. "I think it's realistic," Whedon said in an interview while promoting his upcoming SF movie, Serenity. "I like my chances. But it is absolutely still too amorphous for me to make any kind of announcement about it. I'm out there trying, and there's other people trying, to put it together. But until something falls in place, I really can't say."

Whedon is especially keen on doing a movie centering on the vampire character of Spike (James Marsters). "Let's say it's a good jumping off point," he said. As for Marsters' reported comments that he is growing too old to play the eternally youthful former bloodsucker, Whedon said: "Well, we're working. We're trying. I know. ... James is in very good shape. Keep working out, James."

[Abaddon]

Anya was basically what Cordy could have been on Buffy. Cordy never had a place in Buffy, she was a real outsider and just there to be hot and for a time be Xander's boyfriend. Before and afterwards she didn't even deserve a spot on the opening credits IMO. Anya was much more a group person, and made the Cordy-traits likeable. There were differences, but also similarities.

Spike became an underdeveloped Angel in the first half of S6 and S7. Not just the soul thing, but like Corp pointed out, the bad boy trying to be good for Buffy. Heck, you could maybe even classify Spike's actions in the later episodes of S6 as his Angelus period.


I was going to respond to Mike's post,but I think you summed that up pretty nicely.:up:

And being similar doesn't mean Anya was a rip-off.THey got along quite well,as I remember in her first appearance and they seemed to have alot in common.Its not like they decided,"we need another Cordy,but this time lets make her an ex-demon."Anya was very much her own person.Their approaches to bluntness we're very different.Anya was more of a wrecking-ball of straightforwardness,while Cordy was more like a sixshooter.I could go on and on and on.......

but I wont,so there.:confused::up:

[Abaddon]

I could write books on what went wrong in season 7.All of you stated most of the reasons.The potentials werent interesting,and all they did was steal screen time from Willow,Xander,and Dawn.Yes,Dawn!She may have been annoying in earlier seasons but in the final one she really did seem to mature and become useful.The potentials were not worth spending time on,if they were just going to killed off in the end.Same with the ubervamp.Buffy struggles with one for two eps.,and in the finale everyone,including Anya sans demon strength,is taking them on.Hell she took out two in one clean sweep.WTF?!


The First couldve been the greatest villain,but it failed entirely because the writers had no idea what to do with it.Every move it made seemed to make less and less sense.Caleb was introduced way too late in the season,and I didnt care much for the country boy act.I found him completely two-dimensional.The season sucked,and sucked hard.And the of course the finale had to sum up all that suckiness in one hour,in a series of events that made no sense.Willow uses the scythe to activate the potentials because it has the essence of the slayer.Since when?We were clearly told that the source of the slayers power was the spirit of a demon that was channeled into the Primitive.I could go on and on..........

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Buffy struggles with one for two eps.,and in the finale everyone,including Anya sans demon strength,is taking them on.Hell she took out two in one clean sweep.WTF?!

Right, and all after Anya told the potentials that they were impossible to stake because of their "Sternums of Steel."

And the of course the finale had to sum up all that suckiness in one hour,in a series of events that made no sense.Willow uses the scythe to activate the potentials because it has the essence of the slayer.Since when?We were clearly told that the source of the slayers power was the spirit of a demon that was channeled into the Primitive.I could go on and on..........

Personally, I didn't mind the finale...but then, I'm a sucker for big fight scenes. My biggest problem with Chosen (aside from the Uber-vamp continuity blunder) was the fact that, like the rest of the season, it was all about the battle. The driving force of the episode was them prepping for, going into, and actually being in the final battle. There were a couple of good character moments here and there, but not enough for me to believe that the story for that final episode was character driven.

Angel's series finale, however, was the exact opposite. Yeah, there was a final mission and all, but it was sort of on the back burner. Not Fade Away was all about the characters - who they are and what they've been through. Part of the beauty of that episode was that we never saw the giant, Chosen-esque battle - and to me, it works better that way.

[Abaddon]

Agreed.Except about not minding the finale.I hated it with a passion.

[Abaddon]

I agree that I would've preferred Spike being insane a lot longer. I really liked that phase. They should'nt have bothered with the First as it is beyond Conversations with Dead People. Also, I heard Amber didn't decline just on the way Tara was portrayed, but because she felt that her re-appearance would be too hard on the audience and the character of Willow.


My understanding is that Amer felt it wouldve been cruel to Willow and the fans,to appear as a false Tara.

[Harlekin]

Exactly.

I didn't mind the finale much either. It was a real bag-of-popcorn-and-on-the-couch ending where iy was more for the entertainment value, series finale. I was on the edge of my seat for the Angel finale.

[Jack O Lantern]

Is it just me or did Buffy strating suckiing once Angel left, it became to much about sex and gimmick epsiodes. Then they have Buffy sacrfice herself only to be brought back to life, pretty pointless. Also they seemed to put jokes in for the sake of having jokes instead of having a reason for them.

Angel was much better but in season five Joss made it into Buffy Season 8 stupid jokes, bright and shinning offices, things resolved just like that, things that made no sense, like when did Fred fall for Wes, when did Wes and Gunn become friends again, Gunn is a lawyer, Angel reverted to being madly in love with Buffy. Only real Angel spsiodes were Hellbound, Destiny, Soul Purpose, the one with the slayer,Your Welcome, and all after Hole in the World with the exception of A Girl in Question.

Did anyone else think Angel was more realistic, it had grey characters, whereas on Buffy, it was black and white, even characters that went from good to bad would have a sudden shift instead of a character arc. It was always happy and stuff, best example, was the slayers, when they went through all the potentials on Buffy becoming slayers they showed it from the good side, only in Angel did they show what a dangerous one could do

[Mike]

I agree, after season 3 everything went down hill from there.

[JLBats]

I think it was one of those things where the greatness of the first three seasons often came from the high school dynamic and the Angel-Buffy relationship, along with Cordelia's relationship with the rest of the group. When they took those dynamics out, it greatly weakened the appeal of the show. I feel that Spike and Anya being such big parts of the show as time went on was an attempt to replace those dynamics, but it didn't work quite as well. They didn't manage ot catch lightning in a bottle twice.

[Harlekin]

Angel was much better but in season five Joss made it into Buffy Season 8 stupid jokes, bright and shinning offices, things resolved just like that, things that made no sense, like when did Fred fall for Wes, when did Wes and Gunn become friends again, Gunn is a lawyer, Angel reverted to being madly in love with Buffy. Only real Angel spsiodes were Hellbound, Destiny, Soul Purpose, the one with the slayer,Your Welcome, and all after Hole in the World with the exception of A Girl in Question.

I suggest you re-watch Home (last ep of Season 4) and than rewatch Season 5. Fred's falling for Wes happened gradually, and is portrayed in one or two episodes leading up to it, and many have theorised that because the whole Wesley-betrayal didn't happen for them, she was able to fall in love with him, essentially falling in love with a different Wesley. She also showed attraction to him in season 4 anyway.

Wesley's betrayal didn't happen, so Gunn and Wes could be friends again. Which was great since I'm like the biggest Gunn-Wes friendship fan since they rock together and the later dynamic was still great. The first few standoffs between them in S4 were badass but got annoying at a point.

It was a completely new perspective in Angel, and it made the show in some senses a lot more real (even though it was very realistic for its genre) by showing the real grey side the characters had to deal with right now.

[PyroChamber]

I'm not sure if anyone one else has ever though of this....

But in the beginning of You're Welcome does anyone think that the body Angel and Wes found in the hospital room was Cordelia's; right before she came and pulled the curtain back, even though they didn't show the face of the body?

My guess was that she actually did wake up from the coma but by the time they got there it was too late.....but then again, they did say that she never woke up in the first place.

This always confused me. Was it ever truly explained how that all happened?

[Happenstance]

Yes it was Cordelias body still in the bed when they go into the room, its explained in the commentary. The only thing which wasnt explained was who rang Angel to tell him Cordelia woke up when she never actually did.

[Jack O Lantern]

I suggest you re-watch Home (last ep of Season 4) and than rewatch Season 5. Fred's falling for Wes happened gradually, and is portrayed in one or two episodes leading up to it, and many have theorised that because the whole Wesley-betrayal didn't happen for them, she was able to fall in love with him, essentially falling in love with a different Wesley. She also showed attraction to him in season 4 anyway.

Know it wasn't, Fred and Wes were barely in the two episodes leading up to Smile Time, and leading up to that it looked like Fred was getting with Knox

Wesley's betrayal didn't happen, so Gunn and Wes could be friends again. Which was great since I'm like the biggest Gunn-Wes friendship fan since they rock together and the later dynamic was still great. The first few standoffs between them in S4 were badass but got annoying at a point.

It wasn't Wes' betrayel that ended Gunn and Wes' friendsship, it was all about Fred, thats why Gunn said to Wes after he asked if it was ok with him about fred "A year ago you wouldn't have asked me a question"

[Abaddon]

I'm not sure if anyone one else has ever though of this....

But in the beginning of You're Welcome does anyone think that the body Angel and Wes found in the hospital room was Cordelia's; right before she came and pulled the curtain back, even though they didn't show the face of the body?

My guess was that she actually did wake up from the coma but by the time they got there it was too late.....but then again, they did say that she never woke up in the first place.

This always confused me. Was it ever truly explained how that all happened?


Well being that I read spoilers before watching the ep.,it was clear to me that its Cordelia's own body she's trying to cover up when they arrive.The PTB essentially made her spirit flesh.Its similar to the episode "Birthday" when she's thrown out of her body,except now she was flesh.Which also explains why when Spike bit her,he didnt taste anything demony.The demony stuff was still within her body.

[Abaddon]

Know it wasn't, Fred and Wes were barely in the two episodes leading up to Smile Time, and leading up to that it looked like Fred was getting with Knox



It wasn't Wes' betrayel that ended Gunn and Wes' friendsship, it was all about Fred, thats why Gunn said to Wes after he asked if it was ok with him about fred "A year ago you wouldn't have asked me a question"


Addressing a few things:

-The WB asked them to do more self-contained eps as opposed to story arcs,to draw in a new audience.THats why there werent much story arcs.

-Fred was attracted to Wesley in season 4,so its not something new that came up.

-Gunn and Wes sort of reconciled when Jasmine talked to them both.She mentioned how their love for Fred should bring them closer,and not pull them apart.

-As far as Buffy,once they lost the high school element,they needed to find a new theme.For three seasons the basic concept was that high school is hell.Once high school ended,they needed something new.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Personally, I think Seasons 1 - 5 of Buffy were great, I liked them all. Things started to go down the pooper with Season 6.

In regards to the way Season 5 was handled, part of it was by order of The WB, but Joss Whedon has always called Angel a sort of "mid-20s" show in the way that Buffy was originally concieved as a "high school" show. At the start of the series, Angel was very much enemies with Wolfram and Hart, which sort of embodies how some 20-somethings hate the corporate fatcat lifestyle. However, to really make it in the real world, eventually you have to put on that suit and tie and become one of those fatcats yourself...and that's kind of why Season 5 went in the direction that it did. At least, that's how Joss explained it in the commentary for Conviction (although he said it infinitely better).

As for the Wes-Gunn thing...Fred played a part in that, but a lot of animosity came from the fact that Wesley essentially kidnapped Connor and got him stuck in a Quar'toth. Since we can safely assume that never happened after Angel "Dawn-inized" everyone's memory, their falling out wasn't nearly as disasterous.

Which also reminds me...am I the only one who's curious as to what Wesley, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne remember about the events of Seasons 3 and 4?

[JLBats]

Personally, I think Seasons 1 - 5 of Buffy were great, I liked them all. Things started to go down the pooper with Season 6.

In regards to the way Season 5 was handled, part of it was by order of The WB, but Joss Whedon has always called Angel a sort of "mid-20s" show in the way that Buffy was originally concieved as a "high school" show. At the start of the series, Angel was very much enemies with Wolfram and Hart, which sort of embodies how some 20-somethings hate the corporate fatcat lifestyle. However, to really make it in the real world, eventually you have to put on that suit and tie and become one of those fatcats yourself...and that's kind of why Season 5 went in the direction that it did. At least, that's how Joss explained it in the commentary for Conviction (although he said it infinitely better).

As for the Wes-Gunn thing...Fred played a part in that, but a lot of animosity came from the fact that Wesley essentially kidnapped Connor and got him stuck in a Quar'toth. Since we can safely assume that never happened after Angel "Dawn-inized" everyone's memory, their falling out wasn't nearly as disasterous.

Which also reminds me...am I the only one who's curious as to what Wesley, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne remember about the events of Seasons 3 and 4?

According to Alexis Denisof, it was described as a weak sort of redirection. Wesley knew something happened to his throat. He knew there was a bit of a falling out. But he didn't really realise the specifics.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Hmmm...interesting.

[Not Jake]

I want to participate but for fear of spoilers:(

[Lt. Figgnuts]

How far're you into Angel?

[Matthew Fabb]

Well, according to Mutant Enemy, Buffy became a globetrotting party girl shacking up with demonic Casanovas in Italy.

I try to reconcile this with the girl we met in the pilot and it makes me wonder 'WTF happened??'Well, with all the different slayers in the world Buffy no longer had the weight of the world on her shoulders. After all that time taking on so much responsibility seems she just wants to get away from it all and party. After saving the world time and time again, I think it's a well deserved break. Maybe after a year or two settle down a bit and try to figure out what she's going to do with her life now that things are so different.

As for the quality of the various seasons, season five of Buffy is my personal favorite. There didn't seem to be hardly any average episodes, they were all really good or just outright incredible like "The Body" (which was actually the first episode of Buffy that I sat down and watched beginning to end). Also I thought it was great that just about every episode seem to keep the similar themes and just build and build until the season finale. So yeah, while season two and three were good, it certainly didn't feel like the best.

Meanwhile season 5 for Angel is also my favorite season. Having the team work from inside the evil firm was a great premise and paid off with a lot of great episodes. Plus it really revived the show when it was really getting stale with the horrible season 4. Also Spike and Angel were just great playing off of each other.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

According to Alexis Denisof, it was described as a weak sort of redirection. Wesley knew something happened to his throat. He knew there was a bit of a falling out. But he didn't really realise the specifics.

You'd think, though, that they'd start to question things a lot sooner if this were the case. "Hmm...something happened to my neck, but I don't know what..." If that were me, I'd be like, "Dude, WTF happened to my neck?"

I would think that all of them - not just Wes - would be really curious a lot sooner than Origin - and that was only because Angel was acting weird about Connor.

[Harlekin]

This kind of reminds me of the whole Batman-mindwipe thing, and especially with Wesley finding out, since he was basically their Batman. He also gives a look at Angel in You're Welcome (when they pick up Cordy), where its obvious that he doesn't remember the same stuff.

I think the mind-altering didn't need to be a little more detailed, because:
A) You sooner think of the good memories than the bad. You prefer to anyway.
B) Just remembering having your throat slit would make most people not want to think about it anymore. How much do you think about bad stuff happening to you in relation to how much you think about the good?

[Abaddon]

Its something I wondered as well.Especially considering Cordy giving birth to Jasmine.Who'd they think the father was?I guess it was kinda like the whole Ben is Glory thing.Everyone knew something was off,but they didn't care enough to remember because of the nature of the spell.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Personally, I always figured that everything that happened in seasons 3 and 4 happened, but the gang remembers it differently because Connor was taken out of the equation.

I'd love to see some sort of comic where a writer tackles what memories may have changed...

[Abaddon]

They did a comic dealing with the Dawn thing.It was kinda funny how she was squeezed into some memorable moments.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

They did a comic dealing with the Dawn thing.It was kinda funny how she was squeezed into some memorable moments.

I flipped through it at one point, and it didn't seem like something I would have enjoyed. The thing that's sticking out to me right now was that in Innocence(I believe), Angelus grabbed and threatened Dawn instead of Willow at the High School.

But, IMO, the way the relationship was played out in Season 5 of the show, there was no good reason for Dawn to be anywhere near Sunnydale High, especially at night when they were doing research.

A lot of the Dark Horse Buffy comics seemed lackluster to me. I never got into 'em. :(

[Doomed_hero]

I think the whole mind wipe thing was like a dream to everyone. One of those you can remeber vagely but can't rmeber happening. I mean it is obvious they remeber Jamine cause they mention her in "Your Welcome" in Season 5 when Cordy and Wes are talking, Also from that convo everyone remebers that Cordy was possed at one point. So it seems all the events happen without Conner. They also remeber bringing in Angelius cause Wes remebers Layla's death(even if he didnt kill her, he was involved.) So it is very intresting.

I think Wes always had a feeling, much like Batman in IC, due to some looks he gave Angel in season 5. Also out of all the memories his would be the hardest to erase if you think about it. His whole turn from book worm to bad ass was caused when he stole Conner, had his throat cut, and lost all his friends. To take Conner away from that memory is a very complicated thing to do without destorying his whole psych. Which explains why he went alittle crazy when he got the memories back.

Wow wrote more then I thought. I love this show.

[Abaddon]

I flipped through it at one point, and it didn't seem like something I would have enjoyed. The thing that's sticking out to me right now was that in Innocence(I believe), Angelus grabbed and threatened Dawn instead of Willow at the High School.

But, IMO, the way the relationship was played out in Season 5 of the show, there was no good reason for Dawn to be anywhere near Sunnydale High, especially at night when they were doing research.

A lot of the Dark Horse Buffy comics seemed lackluster to me. I never got into 'em. :(

I'm with you there.The ones I've read have been pretty sucky.Also Dawn really should not have been hanging with the Scoobs.Kinda makes me wonder what the cartoon wouldve been like with Dawn involved.

[Not Jake]

How far're you into Angel?
season 3 just came in the mail