The Battlestar Galactica and Caprica Discussion Thread

[Superfreak]

Although, to be fair, Leoben's always been tuned into a different wavelength to everyone else.

indeed, but like everyone else, he can only guess at what the prophecy of the Hybrids means. He does not understand

[ttotheusher]

indeed, but like everyone else, he can only guess at what the prophecy of the Hybrids means. He does not understand

I think on some level he does. He just cant word it.

[ariellem]

But Leoben wouldn't have known that Adama (be it Lee or Bill) was a Cylon. No one but D'Anna knew who the Final 5 are, and even she wouldn't find out for another couple of seasons.

Although, to be fair, Leoben's always been tuned into a different wavelength to everyone else.

Leoben has been there from the very first episode. He's always magnetically creepy. He manipulates and twists the truth extensively but I'm not sure he has outright lied. He does seem to have a channel to the truth; whether he lets you in on it or not is a matter of whim. It would make a lot of sense for Leoben to know/recognize/have figured out the Final Five without anyone else's input.

[Superfreak]

Leoben has been there from the very first episode. He's always magnetically creepy. He manipulates and twists the truth extensively but I'm not sure he has outright lied. He does seem to have a channel to the truth; whether he lets you in on it or not is a matter of whim. It would make a lot of sense for Leoben to know/recognize/have figured out the Final Five without anyone else's input.


but was it not the belief of the O7 that they cannot and should not look for or find the F5? That's why they boxed D'anna wasn't it?

[ariellem]

Did Leoben vote to box D'Anna? If so, was it because she knew who the Five were - and therefore might realize Leoben already knew somehow? Was it because she felt it was wrong to figure out who they were, and he was making a preventive strike? Because she knew but wouldn't tell? Just because he didn't like her?

[ttotheusher]

Whatever the case, he later voted to unbox her.

[Superfreak]

so, was just thinking about the Adama magic lighter. Will we see it in Caprica?

[EdRyder]

Sci Fi channel put up a new webpage
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth

[BlackLantern]

my theory....Tom Zarek is behind it all

[The Apocalypse]

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/webisodes/

Webisode airs on Friday at noon.

[Evelisse]

Just saw the first webisode, so the best they can do for Gaeta is a metal pole with a shoe on it? Might as well have a peg leg.

[EdRyder]

^ Dood,..they still use crank phones...

[Superfreak]

anybody want to upload the webisodes to youtube, because SciFi is still run by a bunch of pro american Nazis

[Superfreak]

Just saw the first webisode, so the best they can do for Gaeta is a metal pole with a shoe on it? Might as well have a peg leg.


you'd think the friendly cylons would be able to help with something like that.

[Evelisse]

exactly should have been using a spare or old cylon #2's leg :) Oh well can't wait til January, but did i just sit through that webisode just to make it clear Gaeta was gay?

[BlackLantern]

Yes he is

[blksuperman2]

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/webisodes/

Webisode airs on Friday at noon.

Thanks. I can't wait for this show to return.

[Jodo]

Webisode spoiler -

The don't call him Gay-Duh for nothing.

[EdRyder]

^ I remember in the Miniseries when everyone pronounced it guy-ta

[The Apocalypse]

gays in space..a new sequel to bsg :D

[Fading]

Sci Fi channel put up a new webpage
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth

Heh, not sure if any of that is too helpful. Some of it seems like clips made to mislead. Some (like Baltar's speech) didn't reveal any info. I'd like to know what Lee said to the press (someone good at lip reading?), but wouldn't be suprised if it was a "frak you!".

The main thing I thought was interesting was the very first clue. Something like, "You have heard my voice many times, but don't know my name". I have a feeling the 6 Baltar sees is important, and has stayed around this long for a reason. He's heard her voice, but doesn't know who she is which fits that clue.

I do hope that they reveal the 5th right off the bat. They have so much to do, and so much to wrap up, they need to just finally do the reveal so they can move on.

[Superfreak]

Heh, not sure if any of that is too helpful. Some of it seems like clips made to mislead. Some (like Baltar's speech) didn't reveal any info. I'd like to know what Lee said to the press (someone good at lip reading?), but wouldn't be suprised if it was a "frak you!".

The main thing I thought was interesting was the very first clue. Something like, "You have heard my voice many times, but don't know my name". I have a feeling the 6 Baltar sees is important, and has stayed around this long for a reason. He's heard her voice, but doesn't know who she is which fits that clue.

I do hope that they reveal the 5th right off the bat. They have so much to do, and so much to wrap up, they need to just finally do the reveal so they can move on.


indeed. The whole series has been geared towards who these hidden cylons are for atleast 2 seasons now. I hope you're right, that Cylon #12 is revealed in the top 3 episodes, leaving a majority of the remaining 10 episodes on resolving the other deeper narratives of the show, the prophecy, peace with all the cylons, finding a permanent home.

[ariellem]

The main thing I thought was interesting was the very first clue. Something like, "You have heard my voice many times, but don't know my name". I have a feeling the 6 Baltar sees is important, and has stayed around this long for a reason. He's heard her voice, but doesn't know who she is which fits that clue.

Speculation time, fans: what do you think Baltar's "head 6"'s name actually is? Not Caprica, Gina, Natalie, D'Anna, or Sharon, clearly...

Does the meaning of the name come into play? Could we find a pattern?
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Language_in_the_Twelve_Colonies
-> Gina Invierre ~~ "Queen of Resurrection"
and Natalie ~~ "Birth" (Christmas, specifically)
so the original Six's name is probably something similar.

After reading the above webpage, it sounds likely that Dualla is the last Cylon. "Resurrection Double"?

As for the original Six's name, here are some guesses. We need one Biblical name and one location or tribe.
Noelle (another Xmas reference)
Lilith (Adam's first wife)
Elizabeth (I, the Virgin Queen)
*** Rebecca (Pocahontas married foreign invader John Rolfe and got baptized, then christened as Rebecca - http://www.apva.org/history/pocahont.html; this would be a good parallel to this Six's being in love with Baltar, and "Rebecca" has a similar cadence to "Caprica")
*** Ariel(le) (Shakespeare's "airy spirit" in Tempest; "lion of God" in Hebrew; in the Bible, it sometimes is used to refer to Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_%28city%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Jerusalem#Ariel
What more appropriate name for an invisible, very religious, very warriorlike woman?)
*** Gabrielle (feminine version of the ]arch]angel Gabriel's name - lots of parallels to Six's character here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel_Gabriel)
or
Eve
Julia (to go with Gaius)

I'm guessing her last name will be Annunciata or a variation thereof (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annunciation).

[The Apocalypse]

I'm not sure what to take on this but I'll put it in spoilers anyway.

I was on IMDB and I ended up clicking on Zak Adama's name on the BSG page and it says he's casted in the final three eps.

[blksuperman2]

I'm not sure what to take on this but I'll put it in spoilers anyway.

I was on IMDB and I ended up clicking on Zak Adama's name on the BSG page and it says he's casted in the final three eps.

That's very interesting.

Maybe he never died and went to lala land like Starbuck

[ariellem]

Or maybe they're showing him but just in flashbacks, to fill in Starbuck's backstory.

[The Apocalypse]

Or maybe they're showing him but just in flashbacks, to fill in Starbuck's backstory.

That's was my first guess but you still never know. It wouldn't make much sense if he was the 5th anyway.

[Evelisse]

So NASA's Robonaut, IT HAS BEGUN!!! Soon Cylons will walk/roll among us.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq117/gabepiks/robonaut-centaur.jpg

[the_joker]

That's very interesting.

Maybe he never died and went to lala land like Starbuck
It would be a nice twist, but Ronald Moore said that the final cylon would be revealed earlier on in the next part of the season to avoid an anti-climax when the show ends. So unless the cylon is revealed through word of mouth earlier on and we finally see the cylon later on - it's unlikely to be Zak Adama.
Also, Moore has said that the final cylon is not a main character but has been in the show since season one. My money is on the final cylon being either Zarek or the battlestar galactica ship.

[EdRyder]

^ If its the ship that would be so disappointing!
* Ive given up trying to figure it all out.Time to just strap in and enjoy the final ride...20 more days till the beginning of the end.

[the_joker]

^ If its the ship that would be so disappointing!
* Ive given up trying to figure it all out.Time to just strap in and enjoy the final ride...20 more days till the beginning of the end.
Yeah, not long now! :woot:

[Pink Ranger]

So NASA's Robonaut, IT HAS BEGUN!!! Soon Cylons will walk/roll among us.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq117/gabepiks/robonaut-centaur.jpg

I think Baltar will still try to have sex with that.

[BlackLantern]

I think Baltar will still try to have sex with that.

He already did....

[Jodo]

...Twice.

[DesertBat86]

It's almost here!!!!

Just a couple of weeks now

[Jodo]

Don't forget to pick up your S4.0 DVD's to get ready! :D

[ttotheusher]

Has anyone thought of Doc Cottle as a Cylon possibility?

[BlackLantern]

Once or twice....but I dismissed it

[Superfreak]

any ideas as to what Gaeta is up to?

[echostation]

fantasizing about Helo

[The Apocalypse]

fantasizing about Helo

:lmao:

Who doesn't!?! :woot:

[Superfreak]

any ideas as to what Gaeta is up to?

if you care if he's gay or not, I suppose these are the comments that would occur. Get over it, and just accept it as normal.

what I'm more interested in, is who is Gaeta going to meet at the end of the webisodes, and what decision did his experience on the Raptor lead him to?

[Fading]

To be honest, I never cared about Gaeta. Suddenly changing his sexual orientation isn't going to make him a more interesting character, just as having him sing didn't either. IMO he's just boring, you can pile all the extra **** in the world on Gaeta, but he's still a dull, boring, pile of **** heh.

Ok, pile of **** may be harsh....I just find it hard to get interested in his character, despite every season he has some new thing (trying to kill Baltar, suddenly being a semi-opera singer, etc).

The less time they give his character this season the better.

[Superfreak]

To be honest, I never cared about Gaeta. Suddenly changing his sexual orientation isn't going to make him a more interesting character, just as having him sing didn't either. IMO he's just boring, you can pile all the extra **** in the world on Gaeta, but he's still a dull, boring, pile of **** heh.

Ok, pile of **** may be harsh....I just find it hard to get interested in his character, despite every season he has some new thing (trying to kill Baltar, suddenly being a semi-opera singer, etc).

The less time they give his character this season the better.

please guys, the gayness was not that ridiculous, to dudes pecked each other, and from then on, nothing. It was tastefully done, and was not an in your face gay parade. Moreover, he's bi... because he clearly also wanted to bang the sharon. Metro would be fair in his case. And, in all fairness, Gaeta is a secondary character, so I don't think you have to worry all that much FadingCB. Only 10 episodes to go, so not much fleshing out of the secondaries is going to occur, except for 1 lucky last cylon

I thought the webisodes were actually pretty interesting, and that it would be intersting to see what his role in the occupation of NC was, we've seen a pretty bias view of it.

moreover, who was killing people on the Raptor? The sharon admitted to it, but was it her? Or did Gaeta kill everybody? If so, then he was blacking out, and not remembering things he'd done. Was it the oxygen? Or is he programmed?

I'm getting the feeling that Gaeta will start a KKK, against cylons, and then may end up being cylon.

[Fading]

:huh: Kinda confused. I didn't make a big deal out of him being gay. Everyone was talking about it, I was just merely commenting that I find him boring and a small character change won't change that. That's all, not bashing him being gay, or bi.

In fact I didn't even watch the webisodes, so only going off of what you guys are commenting on.

Edit - So to re-emphasize, I'm just saying I don't see the big deal as I don't care about anything Gaeta related in the first place. The only thing I would care about is if he was the final Cylon, and only then because he'd be taking away a bad ass moment from a good character.

[BlackLantern]

Is there anyone left on Earth?? and at what point in time have they all shown up on Earth?

[Fading]

Is there anyone left on Earth?? and at what point in time have they all shown up on Earth?

A lot of buildings are still standing, so it couldn't have been too long after WW3, or whatever war caused the destruction. Eventually wind, weather, etc. would crumble them.

I'd guess no one is on Earth either, it'd be nice, but it looks like the fallout of a massive nuclear war, doubt anything could survive. In fact it's probably so bad that the BSG crew aren't going to be able to live there either (hence the anger in the speeches from the previews, like Baltar's "What have you done to deserve this?").

Either way it can't be anything too elaborate since the series is winding down.

[Superfreak]

Is there anyone left on Earth?? and at what point in time have they all shown up on Earth?

I would say no, given that the webisodes start 6 days after earth was found, and there is no mention. And it seems like everybody still lives on the ships, and they go through a routine escape jump when a false cylon reading is taken

[Superfreak]

:huh: Kinda confused. I didn't make a big deal out of him being gay. Everyone was talking about it, I was just merely commenting that I find him boring and a small character change won't change that. That's all, not bashing him being gay, or bi.

In fact I didn't even watch the webisodes, so only going off of what you guys are commenting on.

Edit - So to re-emphasize, I'm just saying I don't see the big deal as I don't care about anything Gaeta related in the first place. The only thing I would care about is if he was the final Cylon, and only then because he'd be taking away a bad ass moment from a good character.

sorry, it's the number of curses you used... seemed pretty passionate. If it's not such a big deal, then you should avoid the ******* that make it look like you really care a lot.

that being said, Gaeta's been built up for a long time. Especially since he was Baltar's aid.

[BlackLantern]

So I guess the big question is "What to do next?"....Try and find a safe place on Earth, try and go back to the Colonies and take the Cylons out there??

[Superfreak]

So I guess the big question is "What to do next?"....Try and find a safe place on Earth, try and go back to the Colonies and take the Cylons out there??


fight the cavill's... although the fleet doesn't have the manpower, nor the firepower, even with their new/damaged baseship, to win such a battle

[DesertBat86]

has anyone considered.......TIME TRAVEL :wow::wow::wow:

[BlackLantern]

....now that I've thought about it...they could go back to Kobol....

[Superfreak]

....now that I've thought about it...they could go back to Kobol....

thought about it too, time travel back to earth of the past? I dunno. Time travel might be a bit much... I'd much rather see the drama come to a head in an apocoliptic event.

[Pink Ranger]

I hope not time travel: it would be a cop out, as that kind of "Star Trek physics" doesn't appear to be able to exist in the BSG universe.

[OsGom]

Time travel is an overused device in Sci-Fi. Just look at what it's done to Heroes. Time travel is all too often an all to easy way to reveal a potential story or a cheap fix to change unfortunate outcomes. Using time travel without establishing mechanics and with no respect to the challenges and penalties that are inherent with it is just bad writing.

Now I'm not saying it can't be used well. I think the Sarah Conner Chronicles manages it well but there is still potential for misuse there.

My favorite use of time travel in Sci-Fi has to be 12 Monkeys. I think that film effectively demonstrates the challenges that time travel presents to the story and it's possible impact.

Introducing it to BSG now will severly hurt the integrity of the show. Especially if they use it to provide an acceptably happy ending. Who is to say that BSG has or should have a happy ending? I am fine with a tragic ending as long as it is done well. The human race going out in a blaze of glory kind seems poetic.

[BlackLantern]

Remember 6 has said "This has all happened before, and will happen again"

I don't know if it means some weird cryptic end....or some time paradox

[Superfreak]

Remember 6 has said "This has all happened before, and will happen again"

I don't know if it means some weird cryptic end....or some time paradox


yeah, but Apollo said it doesn't have to happen again, if they change and learn from their mistakes.

[OsGom]

I think we will find that the progenitors of the Capricans were Cylon/Human hybrids and that all their ancestors go through this cycle. As evidence the BSG crew will find that the humans of the 13th colony were wiped out and maybe exiled by their mechanical creations.

[Fading]

Yeah, I can see the personal reveal now that involves the audience. That Earth, much like the BSG crew's homeworld, is just part of the cycle. That the ppl of Earth came from somewhere else before Cylons bombed it and they had to find their old home back where the BSG crew came from.

Probably give it some kind of Matrix reveal vibe too. The reveal will be explained by the 5th Cylon who is some white hair and beared elderly man, played by a Shakespearian actor, and the dialogue that explains it be something that no one can follow.

[TheCorpulent1]

So, I only just learned that there was a webisode series featuring Gaeta. I watched it and it was awesome. I can't wait for Friday.

[BlackLantern]

Ive been rewatching season 2....and I realize that Tom Zarek is awesome...my favorite secondary character on the show

[ariellem]

My favorite use of time travel in Sci-Fi has to be 12 Monkeys. I think that film effectively demonstrates the challenges that time travel presents to the story and it's possible impact.

Excellent, underrated film and a very good example here.


I think we will find that the progenitors of the Capricans were Cylon/Human hybrids and that all their ancestors go through this cycle. As evidence the BSG crew will find that the humans of the 13th colony were wiped out and maybe exiled by their mechanical creations.

A theory I hadn't thought of; would fit nicely. Not sure whether I want that to be the reveal, but at least it would be interesting.

[Superfreak]

Probably give it some kind of Matrix reveal vibe too. The reveal will be explained by the 5th Cylon who is some white hair and beared elderly man, played by a Shakespearian actor, and the dialogue that explains it be something that no one can follow.


uh, you couldn't follow that? The explanation was very simple and straight forward I thought.


I'm just hoping that they kick off this last chapter with a little bit of excitement... and then settle into the final 9 episodes, as there really hasn't been very much action this season so far.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've found this season to be pretty exciting even without a lot of action. I tend to like stories with a lot of character stuff, though, and there's been a ton of that with the final four learning to cope with their new identities.

[BlackLantern]

well there are 12 Cylons and there were 12 Colonies....maybe this is part of the circle, that the 12 left Earth and decided to search for new homes...I'm thinking the Cylons have always been around, hiding in society, pretending to "create" Cylons, and then culling humanity when they felt necessary....

[Superfreak]

I've found this season to be pretty exciting even without a lot of action. I tend to like stories with a lot of character stuff, though, and there's been a ton of that with the final four learning to cope with their new identities.

indeed, I'm just saying is all. I could use a hopeful victory episode before things really start to get bad.

[BlackLantern]

I saw an interview with Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonnell, promoting the new season of BSG....Olmos was up for the role of Picard in TNG, and didn't want to do BSG, but he said his wife and kids read the script before him and got him to read it, and 3 pages in he decided to do it....

I think Admiral Bill Adama has earned a place among guys like Kirk, Picard, Jack O'Neill and the like as great commanding officers in sci-fi

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, yeah. He'd be the gritty son of a b**** who'd shoot all the others as soon as look at them. :)

[Evelisse]

I just hope alot of loose ends get handled nicely this season, I hope Callie's fate comes to light even though her character wasnt liked much, I think the Chief deserves to know, not to mention no one saying anything about his own human/cylong hybrid son. Either way it has been a hell of a ride. :boba:

[BlackLantern]

I just hope alot of loose ends get handled nicely this season, I hope Callie's fate comes to light even though her character wasnt liked much, I think the Chief deserves to know, not to mention no one saying anything about his own human/cylong hybrid son. Either way it has been a hell of a ride. :boba:

She got blown out of an airlock (which she had coming anyway IMO), I'd say that's pretty clear

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope Tyrol finds out and kills Tori because, frankly, Tori's had it coming a lot more than Callie ever did.

[BlackLantern]

I'd like to see Helo either end up in command of Galactica or with some important role....I've always liked him....

I think the following will end up dead:

the old man
Tigh
President Roslyn
Chief
Anders
Tori

[Lord Doom]

I, for one, have never seen an episode of Battlestar Galactica. I watched the "Ten Things" special Sci-Fi has been airing and now I'm really sad that this series is ending. It looks really awesome. Can't wait 'till tonight.

[Fading]

uh, you couldn't follow that? The explanation was very simple and straight forward I thought.

:(....sarcasm and joking still don't translate well on the internet I guess....

The Matrix thing is a running joke. Hell, I even remember someone doing a sketch with Will Ferrel as the guy and he was just mumbling or something. I understood it, I was just trying (apparently poorly) to joke around.

[BlackLantern]

:(....sarcasm and joking still don't translate well on the internet I guess....

The Matrix thing is a running joke. Hell, I even remember someone doing a sketch with Will Ferrel as the guy and he was just mumbling or something. I understood it, I was just trying (apparently poorly) to joke around.

Ive seen that....its actually pretty funny....

[Fading]

Ive seen that....its actually pretty funny....

Edited, found a version with the cussword bleeped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5-H9ZBS1U&feature=related

Made me sad when I realized it was from the MTV movie awards, and had Justin Timberlake in it (don't watch MTV, and def don't care for Timberlake). Still funny tho.

[BlackLantern]

Timberlake is a funny guy (D**k in a box from SNL, I thought that whole skit was great, they even included it on the Matrix Reloaded DVD) and he did a great job hosting the ESPYs this year....poked fun at the whole Super Bowl fiasco

[Evelisse]

She got blown out of an airlock (which she had coming anyway IMO), I'd say that's pretty clear

guess what i meant is I want the truth about the situation to come out to Tyrol

[BlackLantern]

Tyrol never loved her, he even told her he was settling

[OsGom]

Okay. New theory I developed with the help of my lovely daughter.

Baltar is Jesus. And the Colonials are the the Romans. They even worship the appropriate gods. Baltar is an instrument of the one God and the Colonials follow the Greek gods.

I don't know where that leads them but watching Baltar in the beard today convinced me he is Jesus.

[Manic]

Okay. New theory I developed with the help of my lovely daughter.

Baltar is Jesus. And the Colonials are the the Romans. They even worship the appropriate gods. Baltar is an instrument of the one God and the Colonials follow the Greek gods.

I don't know where that leads them but watching Baltar in the beard today convinced me he is Jesus.
So... does this mean one of the 12 Cylons will betray him?

[OsGom]

That would be totally awesome! 12 Cylons = 12 Apostles. So which Cylon is Judas? Maybe Caprica 6??

I think we're on to something here!

[BlackLantern]

then who is Starbuck?

[Manic]

In Christianity, it is said that all who accept Jesus and the Lord Thy God will be granted everlasting life.

Well, what if Earth is the key to the remaining humans being given the ability to resurrect themselves, one copy at a time? It would certainly explain why/how Starbuck came back from the dead with images of Earth in her head.

[Manic]

then who is Starbuck?
Starbuck might be part of a triple representation of Jesus. Baltar is the leader who teaches the people, Starbuck is the death/rebirth that will usher in everlasting life for all, and Hera is the birth of a new leader.

[BlackLantern]

well the 12 Cylons / 12 Colonies are connected somewhat....I'm sure of that....I own seasons 1 and 2 and have been rewatching them....rewatched "Home - Part 2" last night where they find the Tomb of Athena and see the constellations that bear the ancient names of the Colonies...Aries, Gemini, Cancer.....

[The Apocalypse]

With 4.5 premiere in a few hours my final pick for the 5th Cylon is Ellen Tigh. Reasons being:

-RDM has said the final Cylon is not in the Last Supper pic (http://scenescreen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/battlestar-galactica_lastsupper.jpg)
- D'Anna said the four are in the fleet meaning the 5th isn't around. That rules out Adama, Lee, Starbuck, Zarek, Gaeta, Duella, Doc Cottle and many others. It also means that no one on the Basestar at that time who was in the Last Supper photo could be the 5th, so that rules out Roslin, Baltar and Helo.
- If you go by those two clues then it eliminates most of the characters on the show except some dead ones.
-If you put the 5th Cylon at the missing spot in the Last Supper pic then it is in between Tigh and Lee with a chalice in front. Tigh looks to be reacting to the person missing.
- Who fits having a chalice or cup in front of him/her?
-The fourth place over, is the seat of Judas the betrayer. Which of those dead characters also were viewed as a "betrayer" or "traitor"?
- Which character drank from a cup of "suffering" or "death"?

That person = Ellen Tigh.

Just my opinion though but I am really looking forward to the final stretch of the show.

[BlackLantern]

Apocalypse....you may be right....I think it is either Ellen or Tom Zarek....but Ellen is a good pick...but her body was left on New Caprica?? wasn't it??

[Fading]

I'm going with Dee again. I think Dualla is the fifth. I thought it awhile back, and am getting a feeling she is again. So my final guess (the President and Dee have been the only ones I've had a good feeling were it anyway).

[Manic]

Well, this episode seems to be giving Dee quite a bit of focus. I'd say she's a shoe-in.

[Evelisse]

What is Starbuck?

And was that Tyrol seeing himself or copy of himself back on earth?

[Manic]

I think Tyrol saw the death of one of his old copies.

[Fading]

Wow, good solid segment. They revealed some stuff pretty casually. That last reveal tho....guess I might have been wrong about my last post heh. That really did have a vibe from the movie Imposter with Gary Sinse tho.

Don't want to say anymore without putting things in spoilers....still wow tho. I guess there is one thing

I might subscribe to the theory now of a mix of time travel + Starbuck's crash being what destroyed Earth. Maybe her exiting the wormhole near Earth is what caused it's destruction. Then another Starbuck body woke up when the signal finally reached it (1,000 years for her to get to Earth, 1,000 for the signal to reach the new body)

[Fading]

Holy....did NOT see that coming. This episode is delivering big time....

Edit - Posted this awhile back heh, Hype's acting up again. Thought I was going to have 5 double posts with how many times I had to refresh.

[Manic]

...and BSG comes out swinging. Holy crap.

[phoenixflight]

ELLEN...she is the 5 frakin' CYLON!!!!!

[Manic]

With 4.5 premiere in a few hours my final pick for the 5th Cylon is Ellen Tigh. Reasons being:

-RDM has said the final Cylon is not in the Last Supper pic (http://scenescreen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/battlestar-galactica_lastsupper.jpg)
- D'Anna said the four are in the fleet meaning the 5th isn't around. That rules out Adama, Lee, Starbuck, Zarek, Gaeta, Duella, Doc Cottle and many others. It also means that no one on the Basestar at that time who was in the Last Supper photo could be the 5th, so that rules out Roslin, Baltar and Helo.
- If you go by those two clues then it eliminates most of the characters on the show except some dead ones.
-If you put the 5th Cylon at the missing spot in the Last Supper pic then it is in between Tigh and Lee with a chalice in front. Tigh looks to be reacting to the person missing.
- Who fits having a chalice or cup in front of him/her?
-The fourth place over, is the seat of Judas the betrayer. Which of those dead characters also were viewed as a "betrayer" or "traitor"?
- Which character drank from a cup of "suffering" or "death"?

That person = Ellen Tigh.

Just my opinion though but I am really looking forward to the final stretch of the show.
Well done.

[Evelisse]

Wow....just wow.

[phoenixflight]

All I can say is WOW...I have to watch this episode again...NOW!!! It's ELLEN..ELLEN. Holy frak!!!!

[Fading]

Looks like someone was right about the Cylon reveal.

So...wait...whu? If that's true then what the hell is Starbuck?


Overall, good episode. Worth the wait. Lots happened in this episode, and next episode looks to tie up another thing.


Edit - Isn't Europe a week behind? If so, I hope they don't check out this thread lol.

[The Apocalypse]

That was the most depressing hour of TV I've seen in a long long time. BSG hit a grandslam in their first episode back though. I wonder what purpose Ellen is going to serve though. I know she's probably alive somewhere but what is her job?

[Manic]

There's so much left unexplained regarding the 2,000 year gap, Starbuck (including where the hell her brand new viper came from), how the Final 5 have been resurrecting, and the opera house dream practically everyone is having these days.

And let's not forget that there's still a faction of Cylons who still want to kill everyone.

[DesertBat86]

Dee.....WOW!!! Take a chill pill.

[ariellem]

I guess there is one thing

I might subscribe to the theory now of a mix of time travel + Starbuck's crash being what destroyed Earth. Maybe her exiting the wormhole near Earth is what caused it's destruction. Then another Starbuck body woke up when the signal finally reached it (1,000 years for her to get to Earth, 1,000 for the signal to reach the new body)

Love it!!! That would be why the Hybrid said she was the harbinger of death as well as why Starbuck's ship seemed to be at Ground Zero for the destruction. Still have some questions in my head to iron out a lot of details... Like, how did they call her to that spot on Earth to begin with? Did Dee kill herself BECAUSE she got memories when she touched the jacks - and thus in a future reveal we'll find out we're all Cylons - or because they just made her sad and she felt she had no future?

[OsGom]

well the 12 Cylons / 12 Colonies are connected somewhat

Ah, but there were 13 colonies. If they are connected, why not 13 Cylon Models? #12 = Ellen #13 = Starbuck???

[888]

I noticed Ellen Tigh said, "resurrect again". So she must of known she was a cylon. Who else knew? The rest of the final five? The rest of Earth? If everyone on Earth knew than how can it be us?

[echostation]

So technically there are NO human beings are there? This is what i'm getting confused on... everyone on Caprica must've been a cylon?

[The Apocalypse]

So technically there are NO human beings are there? This is what i'm getting confused on... everyone on Caprica must've been a cylon?

I think the humans were on Earth at some point but everyone in the colonies are Cylons. I feel that the definition of Cylon is going to change in the upcoming weeks though.

[888]

There's also still the obvious question of if there hasn't been any contact between the people of the colonies and the people of Earth for 2,000 years; how is it that their cultures, styles etc. are so similar.

[Superfreak]

10pm, too late for superfreak. Fell asleep out of boredom when the webisodes aired, and slept through the first half of the episode... now I'm screaming at my BT to hurry up and dl the epi

[Evelisse]

My only thing about the Starbuck being the cause or ground zero, for such a explosion to occur that would wipe out life on the planet, how could they find any remains of her ship or her, she should have been vaporized. But i guess the explosion could have happened in space and knocked her out of the sky, but still, she looked pretty well preserved, didn't look like a 2,000 year old corpse. Its all starting to look Startrekie, time space continuum type stuff, like they are caused in a time loop that keeps repeating.

And, Dee will be missed.

[union_jak]

Oh big fat ****ing b*ll*cks

I opened this thread, forgot the Americans saw the new episode, and have now seen spoilers in capital letters.

Fantastic, time to unsubscribe again :cmad::csad:

[Superfreak]

Oh big fat ****ing b*ll*cks

I opened this thread, forgot the Americans saw the new episode, and have now seen spoilers in capital letters.

Fantastic, time to unsubscribe again :cmad::csad:

you should know better, this is a spoiler tag free thread

[Superfreak]

There's also still the obvious question of if there hasn't been any contact between the people of the colonies and the people of Earth for 2,000 years; how is it that their cultures, styles etc. are so similar.

remember that they still all come from the same place, Kobol. And that at the point all the humans left Kobol, they were not cave men... they had space ships and what not. So it could be safe to say (the occurance of dark ages not withstanding), that the developmental level of human culture, as it departed Kobol, was at a level that would allow for the various colonies to develop similar, but not identical individual cultures...

[BlackLantern]

My only thing about the Starbuck being the cause or ground zero, for such a explosion to occur that would wipe out life on the planet, how could they find any remains of her ship or her, she should have been vaporized. But i guess the explosion could have happened in space and knocked her out of the sky, but still, she looked pretty well preserved, didn't look like a 2,000 year old corpse. Its all starting to look Startrekie, time space continuum type stuff, like they are caused in a time loop that keeps repeating.

And, Dee will be missed.

Maybe by you and 4 other people.....she's a coward as far as I'm concerned....and it looks like Zarek is making his move next week....

This episode did deliver a swift kick to the balls, as you remember BSG is not about super happy funtime, it's about life sucking....and sucking hard...but then you get to shoot something, so it balances out...

[888]

remember that they still all come from the same place, Kobol. And that at the point all the humans left Kobol, they were not cave men... they had space ships and what not. So it could be safe to say (the occurance of dark ages not withstanding), that the developmental level of human culture, as it departed Kobol, was at a level that would allow for the various colonies to develop similar, but not identical individual cultures...

That's just the thing though, if the 13th tribe is supposed to be us then how does that explain our primitive history?

[BlackLantern]

It's never been explained how far in the future/past?? the show is set in human history....

[Superfreak]

That's just the thing though, if the 13th tribe is supposed to be us then how does that explain our primitive history?

well, I don't exactly see cavemen building space ships and flying through space. But our human history: there is still no conclusive connection that humans evolved from apes.... it is still a theory, and the missing link has not yet been found.

given that little peice of info, we could say that maybe the 13th crashed on earth, and their culture began to 'redevelop' thanks to it's survivors. But alas, much of the technology and information that these people had, would be lost over time, and a new culture would develop, but from the foundations of the cultures of those first few generations after said crash.

basically what I'm saying: the 13th colony is like the children at the end of Beyond the Thunderdome, they clearly have their own 'cave man' culture, but that it was developed off the foundation of their parent's (who abandoned them in the desert oasis) culture and knowledge imparted to the children before they left.

[Superfreak]

It's never been explained how far in the future/past?? the show is set in human history....

there's that too.

don't take my arguments too seriously though, I only caught the last 20 minutes of the episode after the webisodes knocked me out.

[BlackLantern]

I think it's set far, far into Earts future.....maybe there was a rift between Cylons, humans who supported them, and humans who didn't like the Cylons....maybe that second group took off to find their own place and bombed Earth.....

[Superfreak]

I think it's set far, far into Earts future.....maybe there was a rift between Cylons, humans who supported them, and humans who didn't like the Cylons....maybe that second group took off to find their own place and bombed Earth.....

the only flashback I saw was Tigh's... but I'm thinking the cylons are the decendants of the 13th colony, an attempt at human immortality via technology, resulting in cylons.

But then it raises the questions about the facts that were introduced in Razor. That the old man hybrid was the first step in developing the baseship hybrids, and subsequently the human form cylons.

And then the next question, is how do the 12 gods of Kobol, with whom humanity lived with in peace for a time on Kobol, figure into the story?

[888]

If the 13th tribe redeveloped than it's quite a coincidence that after thousands of years of toiling in soil, living in grass huts, and spreading out so that all the different ethnicities would create their own little empires and war with each other until finally coming together to develop a society that's almost an exact replica of the original society that came to earth(while forgetting the knowledge of that original society ever existing).

[BlackLantern]

Maybe the "gods" weren't "gods" at all....just Cylons who kept resurrecting, and we're seen as such....and as time went on, the story became twisted into "gods"

[Superfreak]

If the 13th tribe redeveloped than it's quite a coincidence that after thousands of years of toiling in soil, living in grass huts, and spreading out so that all the different ethnicities would create their own little empires and war with each other until finally coming together to develop a society that's almost an exact replica of the original society that came to earth(while forgetting the knowledge of that original society ever existing).

it doesn't mean that they were reduced to cavemen after my crash theory, only that after several generations, of living like the survivors of the 12 were on New Caprica, that human origin may have been forgotten to the 13th. But the religious concepts may have survived on.

again, this is assuming that there is no missing link between man and apes, and that humanity just arrived on the planet a few thousand years ago, had a dark age, in which much knowledge was lost but some survives, resulting in the various multi-theistic cultures that developed on earth, before the concept of singular godhood came about. Simply put: the 13th colony may have lost their technological/historical information, yet retained their cultural heritage: this is what happened in our dark ages. it's plausible that it happened to the fictional BSG 13th colony.

The library of knowledge may burn, but the people and the culture lives on. But they must now work to regain that knowledge of what was lost...

[Superfreak]

Maybe the "gods" weren't "gods" at all....just Cylons who kept resurrecting, and we're seen as such....and as time went on, the story became twisted into "gods"

indeed

[BlackLantern]

Let's go with what we know....Dee blew her brains out, Starbuck found herself (ha ha) and is now more lost than ever, and even Leoben was scared....the Cavills are still out there....and the Admiral is about to pull up stakes and head out into oblivion

[Superfreak]

Let's go with what we know....Dee blew her brains out, Starbuck found herself (ha ha) and is now more lost than ever, and even Leoben was scared....the Cavills are still out there....and the Admiral is about to pull up stakes and head out into oblivion

All I know is that Dee killed herself, the old man and Tigh had a crazy drunken discussion, and that Tigh went swimming at the end of the episode.

clearly I'm burning time on here trying to figure out what happened while I snoozed through the first 40minutes of the epi... and waiting for the epi to Dl. I blame the webisode marathon before the episode aired... 1)boring 2)seen it 3)WAY TO MANY COMMERCIALS FOR SF NOT TO FALL ASLEEP

[BlackLantern]

not to be a jerk, but how is 10pm on a friday too late for you??

[Superfreak]

not to be a jerk, but how is 10pm on a friday too late for you??

working and school gets in the way of sleeping

[BlackLantern]

Fair enough....you'll see the episode, but basically Dee went out like a punk IMO....

[888]

it doesn't mean that they were reduced to cavemen after my crash theory, only that after several generations, of living like the survivors of the 12 were on New Caprica, that human origin may have been forgotten to the 13th. But the religious concepts may have survived on.

again, this is assuming that there is no missing link between man and apes, and that humanity just arrived on the planet a few thousand years ago, had a dark age, in which much knowledge was lost but some survives, resulting in the various multi-theistic cultures that developed on earth, before the concept of singular godhood came about. Simply put: the 13th colony may have lost their technological/historical information, yet retained their cultural heritage: this is what happened in our dark ages. it's plausible that it happened to the fictional BSG 13th colony.

The library of knowledge may burn, but the people and the culture lives on. But they must now work to regain that knowledge of what was lost...

I'm more confused not so much on the traditions and religions, but more on the aesthetics. The design of business suits, automobiles, radios. That kind of knowledge was obviously lost at some point, unless it's somehow ingrained in our psyches.

[Superfreak]

Fair enough....you'll see the episode, but basically Dee went out like a punk IMO....

that's what I heard. On the sleepy thing, I've got an hour commute each way to and from uni, +the commute to work afterwards... I'm usually up and out the door by 6am.

I never understood why BSG was on so late anyhow. Subject matter wise, it's no more disturbing/violent etc. than 24. I much better prefered when BSG was Sunday at 8

[Superfreak]

I'm more confused not so much on the traditions and religions, but more on the aesthetics. The design of business suits, automobiles, radios. That kind of knowledge was obviously lost at some point, unless it's somehow ingrained in our psyches.

maybe the cylons that were imbedded in their societies were 'helping'. I agree though. It's like when they were back on the original Caprica, and it was like, hey, Starbuck's got a hummer in her garage, how'd she get that?

I'm sure things will make some sort of sense sooner or later, unless they totally crap out of explaining things, or make it too complicated or open ended to really come to a definitive answer.




I'm just gonna explod though, if by episode 10, they don't reveal who left the note. It's really the primary mystery for me now. Who is the person who started this hunt for the cylons in Adama's mind? Who warned Adama, and sent him down this path?

[BlackLantern]

Now they aren't hunting anyone, they are going to try and find a new home....I would just head back to Kobol, fight the Cavills if needed and settle there

[Superfreak]

Now they aren't hunting anyone, they are going to try and find a new home....I would just head back to Kobol, fight the Cavills if needed and settle there

indeed, but it was that note that kind of instigated everything that followed.

[BlackLantern]

I wonder what Zarek is going to try to do....split the fleet? take over? I like Zarek and would hate for this to end badly, but it is BSG after all

[888]

maybe Imperious Leader sent the note, or the 13th cylon who wasn't referring to his/herself and thus only mentioned 12 cylons.

[888]

I wonder what Zarek is going to try to do....split the fleet? take over? I like Zarek and would hate for this to end badly, but it is BSG after all

I'm just glad they didn't forget about zarek.

[echostation]

piece it together... in the preview that twirp Gaeta yells at Zarek that "he never signed up for this... that this is MURDER.."

Methinks Zarek and Gaeta (as seen in the webisodes when he tells buddy to keep his head down) are going to start a civil war between the cylons and humans and Gaeta will be too filled with guilt through it all... And somehow through this even all will begin anew

I'm just weirded out by how less of a role Baltar is playing... I wonder how he'll impact the next several episodes, it'd be great if somehow he redeems himself in some way...

[Superfreak]

now I've seen it all, I dunno.

1)13th tribe is all cylon
2)Ellen was seen in a flashback
3)Starbuck is Ressurected, and Leoben freaked out
4)Dee is either there to illustrate the loss of hope, or something more
5)and what seems to be the final dilemna will be wether or not to continue the cycle of death and rebirth, or to float out to sea as Adama put it.
6)with a frame of reference, we can now examine starbuck's prophecy a little more in depth
7)how did Starbuck travel back 2000 years? did she travel back 2000 years? When did she crash?
8)how did new Starbuck get back to the fleet
9)I'm assuming that D'anna is now gone, was she apologizing to Tigh, for forcing him to kill ellen indirectly?
10)If ellen is such, then Adama's first instinct about the character, when she was first introduced was correct. Is there anything to that?


now assumptions

-ellen said that she a tigh would be resurrected again, does this mean they had been before, or was she just saying they be resurrected? However, I'm thinking that maybe there has to always be 12 cylons, ellen is dead, and starbuck presents herself as the replacement?


I dunno, this episode made things even more confusing. This episode should be entitled: 'Now What?'

[BlackLantern]

Dee felt good and she knew it wouldn't last, that there would be hard times ahead...and she wanted that good feeling to be the last thing she knew....that's cowardice in my book....

I think Ellen meant they would be resurrected....but how would she know that back then??

It is confusing....

and I happen to like Gaeta...

[Superfreak]

me too. I guess, what's really grinding my gears, is that this episode kind of answered nothing, but delivered a whole avalanche of new questions. I hope that all this ties up nice and neat within the 9 episodes left.

[Manic]

Right now, I'm of the theory that BSG takes place in some alternate history of the human race in which the humans of Earth probably aren't all that much like us. Humanity really started on Kobol, branched out to 13 different planets, society developed remarkably similarly on Earth as it did in the other 12 colonies, and there's no point in trying to reconcile this TV show's fictional Earth history with our own real life history.

[Sawyer]

Whether Dee went out like a punk or not, that still completely caught me off guard. I'm not sure why, I should have seen it coming, but it still shocked the **** outta me.

I'm looking forward to seeing where the series goes from here... I loved the flashbacks from Tyrol and Tigh. I also loved Adama completely losing his ****. And Mary McDonnell completely knocked it out of the park. Every scene of Roslin nearly had tears running down my face.

So overall, great damn episode.

[Fading]

I think it's set far, far into Earts future.....maybe there was a rift between Cylons, humans who supported them, and humans who didn't like the Cylons....maybe that second group took off to find their own place and bombed Earth.....

I agree. If this all has happened before, and will again...who knows how many times Earth has been nuked and they had to start over again. We could have been part of the original Earth and it got destroyed 4 times after.

[Superfreak]

I agree. If this all has happened before, and will again...who knows how many times Earth has been nuked and they had to start over again. We could have been part of the original Earth and it got destroyed 4 times after.

yes, much like the matrix. Question is, how are our protagonists finally going to break this cycle?

[Darthphere]

With their gangsterificness.

[Sawyer]

Are we cylons?! :huh:

[Darthphere]

Are we human?

[Sawyer]

Are we human?

I honestly dont know anymore...

DAMN YOU, BSG!!!! :cmad::cmad:

[BlackLantern]

like I said before BSG is like the hot psycho girlfriend who abuses and berates you, but you stick around because she's hot and the sex is fantastic...

[wobbly]

Damn, they really are messing with our heads with this show...

Some thoughts and maybe theories:

1) I don't think they ever showed a shot of 'Earth' from orbit that showed the planet was our Earth. ie, any recognizable land masses. Nor was any recognizable landmark used in the 2 flashbacks. Is it possible this might not be our Earth at all?

2) Starbuck's resurrection...I can only think of 2 options that might make sense here: a) She is an 'Earth' Cylon copy or b), and this one goes into the murky waters of time paradoxs's and the like: The corpse she found was her future self. Bear with me a moment...Maybe the Starbuck we saw finally head into and blow up in the maelstrom/wormhole/whatever the hell it was, was sent from a future point in time, with the Starbuck we saw sent back to the fleet the one pulled from that past moment. No idea how they would approach explaining the how and why for something like this, it's just an idea I had trying to think of where they are going (assuming option 1 is wrong).
If she is some sort of Cylon/clone copy, where have all the 'Earth' version Cylons that created her (and her spanking new ship) gone?

[Sawyer]

I dont want time travel at all. A big "no thank you" to any sort of time travel or paradox or anything like that. They have gone three and a half seasons without really a hint of time travel. I honestly would hope that they dont start now.

[C. Lee]

Time travel.....more fun than a barrel of Cylons.

[Fading]

The Cylon Earth looked to be roughly at our level of tech. So Starbuck lands, they find debri, backwards engineer it, and use the tech developed from it to blow themselves up. Or the wormhole opening next to Earth blasted it.

One problem tho, I think it was BL who commented that the corpse looked somewhat fresh. That could have been done for effect, the hair to let us know it was her, it still being slightly meaty for the gag and shock effect. Otherwise it could be timeline accurate, she crashed seconds after she went in the hole, then another Starbuck awoke at the same time...but in an identical ship with a map to Earth?


I guess Starbuck could always be one of the 'Gods' of BSG, one of death and war or something, and just not realize it. I wouldn't mind Chief or Tigh having a flash back of Starbuck reaking havok during their past lives, and realize what she really is.

So many new questions pop up the second the old ones are answered, I really hope they answer them and don't let them just hang there.

[wobbly]

The Cylon Earth looked to be roughly at our level of tech. So Starbuck lands, they find debri, backwards engineer it, and use the tech developed from it to blow themselves up. Or the wormhole opening next to Earth blasted it.

The first option doesn't make much sense to me: they find her ship, reverse engineer it's tech, then just leave it (and her corpse) out in the open?

The second, her arrival causing the destruction, might be a possibility but I have a feeling that wont be the case: Aside from the 'fresh' corpse condition as you noted, we saw in the flashbacks it wasn't just one big bang: In Tigh's flashback the destruction was ongoing, indicating a war.

Also, both the Galactica and Cylons scanned the planet: If they had seen evidence of one big hit wiping out the planet I figure they would have seen it. What they did see led them to conclude the planet had, like Caprica, been 'nuked'.

[Fading]

I meant the debri from the ship, not the ship itself. Just as when she was walking to the ship Starbuck was finding pieces scattered around. Personally I don't think it's that. This episode just opened a lot of new cans of worms, so many possible outcomes, but most likely it'll be the simplest solutions since time for the series is running out.

[Neto Magnus]

wow, I actually woulda preferred the show to end on the mid season finale. Now its just getting more and more confusing. With this and Lost coming next week, my mind can't take anymore of it.

[MaskedManJRK]

I actually just started watching, catching up a bit from the recap and marathon. Hella good show.

I think I have a theory on the Starbuck thing--one bred from my own confusion, but might be possible.

So Ellen is one of the Five Cylons. I don't think it's been said whether they have their own ressurection pods or not, but I assume they do, otherwise, the other four wouldn't be there.

What if Starbuck is actually a young Ellen?

[ariellem]

Let's go with what we know....Dee blew her brains out, Starbuck found herself (ha ha) and is now more lost than ever, and even Leoben was scared....

Leoben scared was a surprise for me. He doesn't tend to get scared. He obviously didn't see the Starbuck-Starbuck thing coming OR he realizes it means something big that she isn't getting because she doesn't know Cylon folklore.


now I've seen it all, I dunno.
...10)If ellen is such, then Adama's first instinct about the character, when she was first introduced was correct. Is there anything to that?
...ellen said that she a tigh would be resurrected ...
I think I have a theory on the Starbuck thing... What if Starbuck is actually a young Ellen?

Adama has good instincts. When I first saw Ellen I was sure she was a Cylon too - she was sex-crazed and slightly manic, like red-dress Six.

Starbuck could certainly be a young Ellen, grown from babyhood rather than awaking as an adult. That could be the difference with the Five.

My & hubby's take on the Earth resurrection business: Ellen, Tigh, and the others of the Five (if not the Twelve) lived on Earth. Normal lives. They got involved with or even spearheaded a project to download their consciousnesses upon death. Possibly they knew the planet was going to be nuked, possibly they were planning this in general. Planet gets nuked; they all get downloaded. Where?

Don't forget - Earth is the 13th colony, so there are already people (Cylons, human, or both) on the other known worlds, 2000 years before Galactica.

Still trying to wrap my head around all of the clues. Haven't come up with a coherent, all-encompassing explanation yet; if/when I do, I'll post it.

[Superfreak]

Leoben scared was a surprise for me. He doesn't tend to get scared. He obviously didn't see the Starbuck-Starbuck thing coming OR he realizes it means something big that she isn't getting because she doesn't know Cylon folklore.





Adama has good instincts. When I first saw Ellen I was sure she was a Cylon too - she was sex-crazed and slightly manic, like red-dress Six.

Starbuck could certainly be a young Ellen, grown from babyhood rather than awaking as an adult. That could be the difference with the Five.

My & hubby's take on the Earth resurrection business: Ellen, Tigh, and the others of the Five (if not the Twelve) lived on Earth. Normal lives. They got involved with or even spearheaded a project to download their consciousnesses upon death. Possibly they knew the planet was going to be nuked, possibly they were planning this in general. Planet gets nuked; they all get downloaded. Where?




I'm actually thinking something like this:the 5 were on earth. The holocaust happened there 2000 years ago. 1950 years later Tigh and Ellen were born as humans again, as babies, grew up on Caprica, etc. But that this rebirth on Caprica, is like the 13th's attempt to survive their holocaust, and be reicarnated on the 12 colonies. (ie. the actual 12 colonies are acting like a ressurection ship for the 13th colony, but in this case, a reincarnation ship)

simply put: 13th Colony cylon souls are being reborn in 12 Colonies human bodies (anybody who watch Babylon 5 will kind of understand what I'm getting at)

Now that the wheels are turning in my head.

1)humanity and the gods of Kobol(maybe they are the cylons) live in peace on Kobol
2)12 colonies leave kobol
3)13 colony (maybe cylons and also the gods of kobol) goes to earth

now, the question of the never ending Cycle, where all this has happened before and will happen again: There are really two options for the fleet here.

1)return to Kobol after making peace with the remaining cylons, and restarting the cycle. Kobol is 1 of 3 planets they've found on the show that they could possibly live on (Kobol, New Caprica, and the Algea planet, which doesn't exist anymore)
-how to make peace with the other cylons? wipe them out with the virus, while saving one copy of each model, by vacinating them with Hera's blood.
-but this leaves a hole, if the 12 cylons are the 12 gods, how will they now ressurect 'as gods', without cylon ressurection technology?

2)or, as Adama put it, 'float out to sea'. Which I assume means, follow Starbuck. Perhaps Starbuck represents the 'real deities' in the galaxy, and is leading humanity and cylon alike to their deaths... but also to 'heaven'.

If that makes sense.

[wobbly]

Another reason for my thinking the planet might not be our Earth: The prophecy regarding Roslin stated she dies before they reach Earth/the promised land, etc. As the prophecy had been uncannily accurate it seems odd they would have it go pear-shaped on such a specific point now.

I'm guessing atm that the planet might not be ours, but one in a solar system not too far away (this would explain why the constellations seen from this planet would seem very similar).

Another thing to note: According to the scrolls the 13 tribes left Kobol 2000 years in the BSG timeline's past. Yet this planet was also devastated 2000 years in the past. This obviously suggests the final five, as seen being killed in the flashbacks, were part of a human/cylon race living on this planet long before the 13th tribe could have ever come along.

Could it be the 13th tribe nuked this planet?

[Superfreak]

Another reason for my thinking the planet might not be our Earth: The prophecy regarding Roslin stated she dies before they reach Earth/the promised land, etc. As the prophecy had been uncannily accurate it seems odd they would have it go pear-shaped on such a specific point now.

I'm guessing atm that the planet might not be ours, but one in a solar system not too far away (this would explain why the constellations seen from this planet would seem very similar).

Another thing to note: According to the scrolls the 13 tribes left Kobol 2000 years in the BSG timeline's past. Yet this planet was also devastated 2000 years in the past. This obviously suggests the final five, as seen being killed in the flashbacks, were part of a human/cylon race living on this planet long before the 13th tribe could have ever come along.

Could it be the 13th tribe nuked this planet?

the book of pythia was talking about events 3600 years ago, while the nuking occured 2000 years ago.

[wobbly]

the book of pythia was talking about events 3600 years ago, while the nuking occured 2000 years ago.

No, the book was written 3600 years ago. The exodus from Kobol was 2000 years ago.

[Superfreak]

No, the book was written 3600 years ago. The exodus from Kobol was 2000 years ago.

the book of pythia is about the events of leaving Kobol, it makes absolutely no sense for the book to be written 1600 years before the exodus from Kobol. The pythian prophecy is about our people today. the exodus was 3600 years ago goes hand in hand with the book, the book tells the story of the departure from Kobol, Earth died 2000 years ago, the 12 colonies died 3 years ago.

did some research, the date of the exodus is unknown. All that is said is that it is no less than 2000 years ago. But is that is so, then there is no way that the 13th could have gotten to earth and started this civilization so quickly... unless they were cylons, with cylon know how.

[BlackLantern]

It's all Dean Cains fault....

[Dr Lee]

how?

[Superfreak]

more questions: when did kara arrive on Earth the first time? 1) there were no other bodies left on the planet, just skeletons, which I find unlikely given the 2000 year time frame. 2) Starbucks corpse was still fleshy, and still had hair. Unlikely that she's been their sitting in that open field for 2000 years. Her corpse would ahve decayed, unless she is cylon and special. 3) if she arrived after calamity, what brought her viper down?

[wobbly]

the book of pythia is about the events of leaving Kobol, it makes absolutely no sense for the book to be written 1600 years before the exodus from Kobol. The pythian prophecy is about our people today. the exodus was 3600 years ago goes hand in hand with the book, the book tells the story of the departure from Kobol, Earth died 2000 years ago, the 12 colonies died 3 years ago.

did some research, the date of the exodus is unknown. All that is said is that it is no less than 2000 years ago. But is that is so, then there is no way that the 13th could have gotten to earth and started this civilization so quickly... unless they were cylons, with cylon know how.

What we know of the book of Pythia is a bit vague. There are mentions of it depicting past history (the 'flood') but many of the references we've seen have been about it's prophecies: It foretelling the future rather than depicting the past.
Whatever the case there, though I don't think they have the time set in stone as such, we do have this as evidence of the approximate timing for the Exodus:

From 'Kobols last gleaming':

Elosha: How old are the ruins?
Billy: Well, we won't know for sure until we send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol.

Now having that number be nearly doubled isn't 'around the time' (That'd be as off the mark as an Earth historian saying Jesus died around the time Moses led the Exodus from Egypt).

Then there's this from RDM on this question:

""In the last two episodes it is noted by the priestess that the thirteen tribes left Kobol about "2000 years ago" and the initial estimate of the age of the ruins is the same, but nothing is concrete of course. This is where I have a problem: They were obviously a star faring civilization to leave Kobol to begin with. To do so requires information technology. Why is their history of that time so sketchy and lacking of concrete records? Yes it was 2000 years in the past but come on, it's not like they only had papyrus to write on."

I've been presupposing some kind of cataclysm or crisis that occurred soon after mankind settled on the 12 worlds which either wiped out the knowledge base or had it deliberately destroyed for some reason. This doesn't seem that implausible when one considers that a tremendous amount of knowledge from the Greco-Roman tradition was lost after the fall of the Roman Empire and plunged the western world into the so called Dark Ages. Clearly, the Colonials did not fall all the way back to papyrus, and they do in fact, know that they are descendants of refugees from Kobol, hence the term "Colonies". They must have possessed star-faring technology at the time of the exodus, but I don't know how far we'll go into this specific backstory in the series, however."
---

Now Moore could have shot down the 2000 years as a writing blip, but responds to that as if its accurate. When you consider he has said everything needed to work out what is going on has already been seen in the series (not sure I believe that, btw), I think them stating explicitly when this 'Earth' was nuked is no co-incidence.

Edited to add:
After looking for confirmation on the rough date for the exodus I found this conflicting statement made by Tyrol:
"Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe."

And another from Adama in the episode where they found an ancient probe:
"According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol."

So we have 2,000 years from Elosha saying all 13 tribes left at the same time, and 3,000 from Adama and 4,000 from Tyrol suggesting the 13th left at a different, earlier time.

Looks like writing blips might be to blame after all.

[wobbly]

more questions: when did kara arrive on Earth the first time? 1) there were no other bodies left on the planet, just skeletons, which I find unlikely given the 2000 year time frame. 2) Starbucks corpse was still fleshy, and still had hair. Unlikely that she's been their sitting in that open field for 2000 years. Her corpse would ahve decayed, unless she is cylon and special. 3) if she arrived after calamity, what brought her viper down?

1) Based on the state of her remains and the beacon's weakening charge, her viper might well have arrived when she was killed in the maelstrom (a corpse left exposed to the elements for several months would not look far off what we saw) and they found a couple of hundred skeletons, but these were dug up wherever each landing site was sent. It's probably safe to assume there are many many more buried or, like Tyrol's past self, vaporised.

2) Agreed. No way that is a 2000 year old corpse. It arrived much sooner.

3) We have no idea on this one. Just as pertinent questions on this matter are: How the hell did the Viper, a ship with no FTL drive, get there in the first place, and how did the re-created Kara/Viper make it from Earth back to the nebula?
For the latter, someone obviously sent her, but who?

[Superfreak]

What we know of the book of Pythia is a bit vague. There are mentions of it depicting past history (the 'flood') but many of the references we've seen have been about it's prophecies: It foretelling the future rather than depicting the past.
Whatever the case there, though I don't think they have the time set in stone as such, we do have this as evidence of the approximate timing for the Exodus:

From 'Kobols last gleaming':

Elosha: How old are the ruins?
Billy: Well, we won't know for sure until we send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol.

Now having that number be nearly doubled isn't 'around the time' (That'd be as off the mark as an Earth historian saying Jesus died around the time Moses led the Exodus from Egypt).

Then there's this from RDM on this question:

""In the last two episodes it is noted by the priestess that the thirteen tribes left Kobol about "2000 years ago" and the initial estimate of the age of the ruins is the same, but nothing is concrete of course. This is where I have a problem: They were obviously a star faring civilization to leave Kobol to begin with. To do so requires information technology. Why is their history of that time so sketchy and lacking of concrete records? Yes it was 2000 years in the past but come on, it's not like they only had papyrus to write on."

I've been presupposing some kind of cataclysm or crisis that occurred soon after mankind settled on the 12 worlds which either wiped out the knowledge base or had it deliberately destroyed for some reason. This doesn't seem that implausible when one considers that a tremendous amount of knowledge from the Greco-Roman tradition was lost after the fall of the Roman Empire and plunged the western world into the so called Dark Ages. Clearly, the Colonials did not fall all the way back to papyrus, and they do in fact, know that they are descendants of refugees from Kobol, hence the term "Colonies". They must have possessed star-faring technology at the time of the exodus, but I don't know how far we'll go into this specific backstory in the series, however."
---

Now Moore could have shot down the 2000 years as a writing blip, but responds to that as if its accurate. When you consider he has said everything needed to work out what is going on has already been seen in the series (not sure I believe that, btw), I think them stating explicitly when this 'Earth' was nuked is no co-incidence.

Edited to add:
After looking for confirmation on the rough date for the exodus I found this conflicting statement made by Tyrol:
"Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe."

And another from Adama in the episode where they found an ancient probe:
"According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol."

So we have 2,000 years from Elosha saying all 13 tribes left at the same time, and 3,000 from Adama and 4,000 from Tyrol suggesting the 13th left at a different, earlier time.

Looks like writing blips might be to blame after all.

awesome post wobbly. Indeed, perhaps if time travel does come into play, it may have something to do with the maelstrom eye. And perhaps explain the time inaccuracies. Like the 13th tribe left 3000 years ago, travelled back in time 2000 years to earth, had their civilization... built the temple of 5 4000 years ago, and nuked themselves 2000 years ago. Something like that.

another thing is this: it's been alluded to that in every cycle of the 'this has happened before, and will happen again', that different people are thrust into the different roles played out in the prophecy. ie. last cycle Starbuck was a dude, this cycle, Starbuck is a fem. last cycle Adama was Lorne, this cycle Adama is James... etc. I'd just like to ask the question, if this is true, then perhaps Tigh was not seeing Ellen as the 5th cylon, but rather, seeing his previous life before this cycle began. Kind of like a bodisatva (forgive my spelling, it's been a long time since my bhudism class), a person who is able to commune with all his or her past reincarnated lives. Perhaps ellen isn't the 5th, but rather a person like Tigh, who has figure out how to ensure that a couple will remain together in their next reincarnated lives.


I think in the end, the story will be about wether to settle and start over on Kobol, or to follow Kara and end the endless cycle.

[Superfreak]

1) Based on the state of her remains and the beacon's weakening charge, her viper might well have arrived when she was killed in the maelstrom (a corpse left exposed to the elements for several months would not look far off what we saw) and they found a couple of hundred skeletons, but these were dug up wherever each landing site was sent. It's probably safe to assume there are many many more buried or, like Tyrol's past self, vaporised.

2) Agreed. No way that is a 2000 year old corpse. It arrived much sooner.

3) We have no idea on this one. Just as pertinent questions on this matter are: How the hell did the Viper, a ship with no FTL drive, get there in the first place, and how did the re-created Kara/Viper make it from Earth back to the nebula?
For the latter, someone obviously sent her, but who?

Indeed, something is helping Kara, I remember reading a rumor about the ship of lights... which could tie in very well with Count Iblis, if you take a look at Kara.

[wobbly]

Indeed, something is helping Kara, I remember reading a rumor about the ship of lights... which could tie in very well with Count Iblis, if you take a look at Kara.

When she first returned from her apparent (and now confirmed) death I speculated a re-imagined version of "the ship of lights" might be behind it and I still think some form of that idea might be at hand. I can't say I think they will go with an alien race though as that would feel a little at odds with the tone of this series.
Perhaps an evolved form of the humans/Cylons who inhabited the devastated planet (or migrated to a new one) might serve?

And Kara's finding her own body did echo the scene in the old series where they found Iblis ship. Her role as apparent Saviour, but really a herald/harbinger of doom does echo his too.

[Superfreak]

When she first returned from her apparent (and now confirmed) death I speculated a re-imagined version of "the ship of lights" might be behind it and I still think some form of that idea might be at hand. I can't say I think they will go with an alien race though as that would feel a little at odds with the tone of this series.
Perhaps an evolved form of the humans/Cylons who inhabited the devastated planet (or migrated to a new one) might serve?

And Kara's finding her own body did echo the scene in the old series where they found Iblis ship. Her role as apparent Saviour, but really a herald/harbinger of doom does echo his too.

yeah, like the themes are all there, so I think it's a valid rumor. I all depends on if the rumors are true, and how such a thing would be excecuted in this interpretation of the material.

[Mikelus]

Hold on to your seats frakkers, here comes the great Ron Moore with some good frakking answers, and the Earth is.....:

(Interviewer bolded):

The crazy thing about this is, even without Ellen, even without Dee, we also got a ton of information or clues about what happened on Earth and what happened with the Colonies in the past. I could spend an hour asking you questions about that. Tigh and Baltar are offering this theory that the Cylons are the 13th tribe and they found this planet and they called it Earth. Are we to read that as a theory or as fact?

I think you can read that as fact.

The part of the timeline I’m having trouble with is this: We know that the Colonies had a cataclysm 2,000 years ago, then we find out Earth had a cataclysm 2,000 years ago. Am I getting something wrong in how I’m looking at the history?

No, you are getting it correctly. I can say that later, as we get through subsequent episodes, there will be more explanations, and actually all this timeline stuff does lock into place. You have to read the subsequent chapters, but it will actually make sense.

We see the flashback of Tyrol in that marketplace, and it seemed like a planet full of lots of different kinds of people, not just 12 different models. Is that right?

Yes.

That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.

Then there’s the whole Starbuck thing. We don’t know what she is now, right? All 12 Cylons have been accounted for, but she doesn’t know that. Is she suspecting she’s a Cylon?

Yeah, I think all questions are open for her at this point.

What I really found surprising about that scene where she appears to find her own body is -- Leoben seems taken aback. Normally he’s the guy who’s spewing this mixture of [not-truth] and truth and getting in her head. But he seems severely freaked out.

Oh yeah. I love the fact that Leoben gets to a place where he says, “I was wrong. I don’t know what to do. I thought I saw streams and rivers and I thought I saw stuff [this refers to Leoben’s dialogue in “Flesh and Bone”], but I don’t know.” That makes him mortal, in a certain sense.

In general with this episode, did anyone at the network or studio say, you know, this is too dark?

I think they had qualms. There were questions about, “Wow, this is really dark. Is anyone ever going to come back and watch the rest of the episodes?” I said, “Well, it is the end of the show.”

My attitude was pretty much, “Look, we’re in the last chapter here. Anyone who’s come this far and doesn’t want to watch the rest -- they’re a minority at best.” People are going to want to see how this turns out. And yeah, this is a very dark chapter. This may not even be the darkest chapter.

That’s a scary thought.

[laughs] It may not get better.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html


I freaking love it, can't wait for more!

[wobbly]

Ha. I noted the way he neither confirmed nor denied that the planet in question is our Earth.

That evasion, the lack of identifiable detail in orbital or ground shots...atm, I really don't think this is gonna be revealed as our planet at all.

[LadyVader]

Ha. I noted the way he neither confirmed nor denied that the planet in question is our Earth.

That evasion, the lack of identifiable detail in orbital or ground shots...atm, I really don't think this is gonna be revealed as our planet at all.

Well depends what you mean by that. If you look at the planet that we see in the last few seconds of season 3, right after Kara reveals herself to Apollo, you can make out North America so it is clearly a planet identical to our own, but if you're asking if it's our Earth, 6 billion people, Starbucks at every corner, ozone layer full of holes Earth... well that is open to discussion.

But unless the planet we saw in those final seconds is different than the planet they've arrived at now (which I highly doubt), then it's obviously Earth.

[BlackLantern]

Let's also remember that the last time anyone saw Caprica, the Cylons were policing up the bodies and rebuilding some of it....I think that's connected to the Colonies as well

[wobbly]

Well depends what you mean by that. If you look at the planet that we see in the last few seconds of season 3, right after Kara reveals herself to Apollo, you can make out North America so it is clearly a planet identical to our own, but if you're asking if it's our Earth, 6 billion people, Starbucks at every corner, ozone layer full of holes Earth... well that is open to discussion.

But unless the planet we saw in those final seconds is different than the planet they've arrived at now (which I highly doubt), then it's obviously Earth.

I do mean our Earth in general: this planet itself, rather than whatever point in time or state it's in when the Fleet are arriving at it.

For me, I think the absence of identifying detail in the shots of the planet the fleet have arrived at (in the arrival and current episodes) is not some oversight. I ask why use an identifying detail in that one quick shot at the end of S3, but avoid one now?

I have just 2 answers: The S3 final shot was used so we would all just assume it was our Earth when the fleet arrived.

or 2) No identifiable detail (so far) either really is an oversight, or a red herring in itself to have suspicious minds like my own questioning it.

[Superfreak]

'No, you are getting it correctly. I can say that later, as we get through subsequent episodes, there will be more explanations, and actually all this timeline stuff does lock into place. You have to read the subsequent chapters, but it will actually make sense. '

interesting, hmmmmmmm, Wobbly, wonder what that means, given our earlier discussion

[wobbly]

'No, you are getting it correctly. I can say that later, as we get through subsequent episodes, there will be more explanations, and actually all this timeline stuff does lock into place. You have to read the subsequent chapters, but it will actually make sense. '

interesting, hmmmmmmm, Wobbly, wonder what that means, given our earlier discussion

That would tend to suggest they might indeed have an explanation for the conflicting dates of the 13ths exodus. No idea what that will be, but he does seem to hint at it.

[Darkly Dexter]

now I've seen it all, I dunno.

1)13th tribe is all cylon



I'm really trying but I still can understand that.

Besides, if the 13th tribe is all cylon then who created them? I'm mean, cylons = machines. This is very confusing...

[Manic]

The 13th tribe could've been created on Kobol.

[Darkly Dexter]

The 13th tribe could've been created on Kobol.

yes, but by WHO? And why the other tribes didn't know about it?

[Manic]

yes, but by WHO?
The human race when it lived on Kobol.

And why the other tribes didn't know about it?
You got me there. There's got to be one hell of a reason why these people didn't keep detailed records.

[blksuperman2]

I'm really looking forward to this season. It's been far too long.

[Fading]

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate the last episode. This whole time we thought Earth was the goal. Get to Earth, defeat cylons, get to makin' babies. We were all asking 'what's next'. This last episode just basically threw everything out the window, no Earth is not the goal, no Earth was not populated by humans, cylons are now alligned with humans, and this series may not have a happy ending.

This series has had it's surprises, but even this late in the game they still show they can surprise you. A lot of series anymore are so clear cut in goals, and it's usually the journey that makes it worth watching. BSG is not only making the journey enjoyable, but it's constantly changing the goals, and adding in surprises and twists most shows don't care to take the energy to put in.

I have a feeling the BSG cast and crew want the ending of this series to leave a mark. The last episode had me wrong on a lot of things, I think they'll come up with something none of us guessed by the end of the series.

[LadyVader]

I just thought the scenes of the Galactica crew all depressed and crying in corners were completely over the top. Galactica is a military vessel, not a civilian one. You can't sit around and sulk in a corner because chances are you're supposed to be somewhere doing something.

Other than that minor quibble I loved everything about the episode,

[Manic]

I think they were perfectly justified in sulking all over the ship, military or not. I think the thing that keeps a lot of military men & women fighting is the idea that they're actually fighting for something. Their homes, families, and civilizations are all dead. The only thing that kept them fighting this whole time was the hope of reaching the Earth. That hope is now gone. It was the final hope of the entire human race, and it's gone. There's nothing to look forward to. There's nothing to fight for.

It's the perfect time to cry in a corner.

[Superfreak]

yes, but by WHO? And why the other tribes didn't know about it?

by humanity. I don't think it's be defined when the cylons were created. They may have existed on Kobol, before the colonies went their seperate ways. We know who created the Cylons: It was painted in a giant billboard at the beginning of early season episodes. Man Created Cylon

[Superfreak]

I just thought the scenes of the Galactica crew all depressed and crying in corners were completely over the top. Galactica is a military vessel, not a civilian one. You can't sit around and sulk in a corner because chances are you're supposed to be somewhere doing something.

Other than that minor quibble I loved everything about the episode,

Indeed, I was expecting a little more than a mind twister out of this episode. But the depression is totally justified.


as to the end of the series: I posted my thoughts on it already. It's either gonna be make peace with the cylons and return to Kobol to start over, or 'float out to sea' (probably following starbuck) and see what happens.

[LadyVader]

I think they were perfectly justified in sulking all over the ship, military or not. I think the thing that keeps a lot of military men & women fighting is the idea that they're actually fighting for something. Their homes, families, and civilizations are all dead. The only thing that kept them fighting this whole time was the hope of reaching the Earth. That hope is now gone. It was the final hope of the entire human race, and it's gone. There's nothing to look forward to. There's nothing to fight for.

It's the perfect time to cry in a corner.

They landed once and tried to rebuild their society, only the cylons found them and enslaved them. Now that the cylons are supposedly their allies, that threat has been eliminated.

I still feel those scenes were tacked on.

[Superfreak]

They landed once and tried to rebuild their society, only the cylons found them and enslaved them. Now that the cylons are supposedly their allies, that threat has been eliminated.

I still feel those scenes were tacked on.

is everybody forgetting that the majority of 'early' cylons are still trying to kill everybody? Meaning they can't go back to NC or to Kobol. Earth is dead, so again, their stuck in their ships. I'd find that pretty depressing, and apretty big let down.

[Mikelus]

Ha. I noted the way he neither confirmed nor denied that the planet in question is our Earth.

That evasion, the lack of identifiable detail in orbital or ground shots...atm, I really don't think this is gonna be revealed as our planet at all.

It is Earth, Ron Moore was pretty clear about it in the interview. Just because the Earth shot wasn't the way you thought it should be, it has to be another planet.

[Superfreak]

It is Earth, Ron Moore was pretty clear about it in the interview. Just because the Earth shot wasn't the way you thought it should be, it has to be another planet.

Indeed, it's too late in the series for cheap misdirection.

[Mikelus]

^^ Agreed. ;)

[Darthphere]

So couldn't Starbuck be a Cylon as well? If you think about it, we always made the connection of 12 Cylons=12 Colonies. Couldn't Starbuck be a Cylon representative wise of the 13 colony numerically?

[wobbly]

It is Earth, Ron Moore was pretty clear about it in the interview. Just because the Earth shot wasn't the way you thought it should be, it has to be another planet.

Maybe, and it wouldn't be the first time I've got things wrong guessing whats going on in the show, but what interview are you basing him being pretty clear on the matter?

If it's the above this is what he said:
"They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. "

Now to me he is pretty clear they have found a planet that is named Earth, but he doesn't explicitly say it is our Earth.

But if I am wrong (like I said, it wouldn't be a first) then there's something else to think about given his statement: He is saying the 13th tribe discovered and christened the planet, (so they didn't inherit the name) so if this is our Earth, just when are the 13th tribe supposed to have arrived in our timeline?

Given the problems in trying to make this all occur in our past (I cant see that being workable in any logical manner) then it has to be in our future, which would seem all the more likely with the use of Dylan's 'All Along the Watchtower" (and Anders remembering he sang it). If that is the case, then the name Earth was already bestowed by us long before the 13th tribe ever came along. Even if we were gone for whatever reason when they arrived, they found out enough to inherit that old Dylan song, so they would have known where the planets name came from too.

[wobbly]

Indeed, it's too late in the series for cheap misdirection.

If Kara is not a Cylon, then what should we call her finding her own corpse?

Seriously, if there's one thing we can be sure of with the remaining episodes, it's that there will be more misdirection, twists, turns, with reveals and a conclusion that most of us wont get close close to guessing (at least not for a few more episodes).

[BlackLantern]

I've always felt this show takes place far far FAR in the future....

[Darthphere]

This is Galactica 1980 again.

[BlackLantern]

I didn't watch that....or would even know where to look to watch that

[Darthphere]

I don't think you want to watch that.

[wobbly]

I didn't watch that....or would even know where to look to watch that

Look away from your Tv if you ever see it's on...

It was rather awful, even at the time, never mind now.

[Darthphere]

I don't really understand the argument of a place called Earth versus our Earth. We're assuming that they've always been looking for our Earth. I mean, did you guys expect the Galactica to land in Times Square?

[BlackLantern]

I don't really understand the argument of a place called Earth versus our Earth. We're assuming that they've always been looking for our Earth. I mean, did you guys expect the Galactica to land in Times Square?

I never did....Im sure there is some retarded fan fiction out there that has the Galactica showing up right when Stargate Command is fighting the Gaould or the Ori or some crap and the Galactica saves the day and Starbuck and O'Neil do it....or some crap like that

[Darthphere]

I never did....Im sure there is some retarded fan fiction out there that has the Galactica showing up right when Stargate Command is fighting the Gaould or the Ori or some crap and the Galactica saves the day and Starbuck and O'Neil do it....or some crap like that

Seriously, stop reading my livejournal.

[wobbly]

I don't really understand the argument of a place called Earth versus our Earth.
We're assuming that they've always been looking for our Earth. I mean, did you guys expect the Galactica to land in Times Square?

Not at all.
But in general any sci-fi show with ships orbiting the Earth do usually show something we can recognize of the planet in those orbital shots (a continent at least) That they haven't done so (yet) might be a clue to something else going on, or it might just be me getting it wrong.

[BlackLantern]

I've always just wanted them to find a home, period....whether it's Earth, Earth 2, or Earths retarded brother planet Dearth....

[Superfreak]

guys, it's Earth. Earth of the past, or future is yet to be determined.

if you want galactica to arrive in the present, watch bsg1980... but it's ba ah aaad. Think Dukes of Hazard, but throw in some guys in oldschool BSG costumes, and a couple of BSG vehicles that can turn invisible, sneaking around 'Superman II' era earth: retarded

[Specter313]

Ok, holy ****. I just caught up on BSG, and I did NOT see it coming that Ellen would be the fifth. Took me completely and utterly surprised. I love this show.

[FreeRadical]

The episode was shown tonight in the UK.....

Even though Ellen was revealed as the 5th, Dee's suicide is what surprised me the most.

Bloody depressing show, but damn good television!

[Angry Sentinel]

The human race when it lived on Kobol.


You got me there. There's got to be one hell of a reason why these people didn't keep detailed records. Just a guess, but if we created a race of "conscious" living robots, discriminated against them to the point where they had to leave (much like the Cylons did after the war with the 12 colonies 43 years ago), and then tracked them down and exterminated them, then we would probably leave it out of the history books. In which case the only record would exist in rumor, stories and other "non-official" writings. Which by studying our own society's tendencies, we can see how this turns into a religion, much like what seems to have happened in the show.

[BlackLantern]

^^^good theory...I was thinking something similar

[Angry Sentinel]

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that the Colonies from over 2,000 years ago killed the earth Cylons. Probably nuked them from orbit, but the five learned of the dowloading method and somehow downloaded themselves to the attacking ships mainframes. Or maybe even a mainframe of their own creation which they launched into space with their new bodies or somehow deposited secretly on the colony ships. This process probably caused their memory loss, even when they finally re-downloaded years later.

The Baltar six hallucination, all the premonitions and Starbuck situation are answers that are going to involve an alien or supernatural outcome. I just can't think of any other way.

[Superfreak]

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that the Colonies from over 2,000 years ago killed the earth Cylons. Probably nuked them from orbit, but the five learned of the dowloading method and somehow downloaded themselves to the attacking ships mainframes. Or maybe even a mainframe of their own creation which they launched into space with their new bodies or somehow deposited secretly on the colony ships. This process probably caused their memory loss, even when they finally re-downloaded years later.

The Baltar six hallucination, all the premonitions and Starbuck situation are answers that are going to involve an alien or supernatural outcome. I just can't think of any other way.

didn't ellen say that they would be 'born' again... rather than saying they'd be ressurected? I think the final five may have actually been born, and been babies, and grown up. Reincarnated rather than Ressurected

[TheCorpulent1]

The Earth Cylons did seem to be a bit more advanced than the colonies' Cylons, and the latter already had resurrection tech. Seems logical that the Earth Cylons might've developed something even more advanced where they're born into human bodies somehow.

I don't think we need an alien or supernatural outcome. I think it can be explained with crazy-high-level technology, courtesy of the Earth Cylons. Granted, they are basically a new alien race, since no one knew about them and they're different from both the colonies' humans and Cylons.

[BlackLantern]

but who destroyed them and why....maybe when the original twelve colonies were established, word got back that there was a Cylon planet...and the twelve decided to take them out....I think Earth could be considered the Cylon homeworld, they were gone for 50 years....

[TheCorpulent1]

When they revealed that Earth was a Cylon planet, my initial thought was that their Earth is our Earth, future humans created Cylons and basically enslaved them, they became sentient and drove the humans off of Earth, and Cylon society flourished on Earth while the humans found new homes on the colonies. I like Angry Sentinel's idea that the humans found Earth 2000 years ago and annihilated it, and then Earth passed out of future generations' collective memory and into myth. I'm still not sure what it means that 5 Earth Cylons were reborn into human civilization on the colonies, though...

[Superfreak]

The Earth Cylons did seem to be a bit more advanced than the colonies' Cylons, and the latter already had resurrection tech. Seems logical that the Earth Cylons might've developed something even more advanced where they're born into human bodies somehow.

I don't think we need an alien or supernatural outcome. I think it can be explained with crazy-high-level technology, courtesy of the Earth Cylons. Granted, they are basically a new alien race, since no one knew about them and they're different from both the colonies' humans and Cylons.

oh of course it'll be technology based... I wasn't really arguing the process.
I just use the word 'reincarnate' as a way to differentiate it from 'ressurect'. By reincarnate, 13th Colony Cylons are reborn as human babies. While the O.7 ressurect into new identical bodies.

How this process is achieved, I dunno.

but when Ellen says they'll be born 'again', I think she is refering that they will be 'together again' after ressurection/reincarnation, rather than actually being reincarnated/ressurected again.

[BlackLantern]

maybe the Cylons saw it coming and implanted those 5 as sort of a map/road flare....so that way the rest of the Cylons could find their way back to Earth eventually

[TheCorpulent1]

Hmm. This is all sort of a head trip with just tiny fragments of information that could add up in a number of ways.

Oh, and I wonder how Ellen will return. I'm assuming she will, since they wouldn't reveal her as the final Cylon without doing anything with that. I thought she might have been reincarnated as Hera, but the timing doesn't match up.

[BlackLantern]

Is it wrong to still be attracted to Starbuck even though she's "dead"??

[TheCorpulent1]

She could've cleared the whole thing up if she'd gotten Baltar to test her and the corpse's DNA. But no, she had to be all creeped out and burn her body. :o

[BlackLantern]

Ya she went all Darth Vader on herself.....

[Brian Braddock]

Maybe she was hungry and fancied BBQ?

[Superfreak]

maybe the Cylons saw it coming and implanted those 5 as sort of a map/road flare....so that way the rest of the Cylons could find their way back to Earth eventually

indeed.

but I've also got this nagging feeling that this all has something to do with Hera.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, her importance as the first (or maybe not, now) Cylon/human hybrid has been on the back burner for this whole season and some of the previous season. It seems like she's about due to come back to the fore.

I'm still really sad about Dee, by the way. :(

[BlackLantern]

Yeah, her importance as the first (or maybe not, now) Cylon/human hybrid has been on the back burner for this whole season and some of the previous season. It seems like she's about due to come back to the fore.

I'm still really sad about Dee, by the way. :(

I do not mourn for cowards....

[TheCorpulent1]

Like Lee, I'm as upset that we'll never really know why she did it as I am sad that she's gone in the first place. It came pretty much out of nowhere. The only thing I can think of is that she's from that super-religious colony and, in discovering that Earth is a barren wasteland, her faith was effectively shattered.

[union_jak]

I do not mourn for cowards....
You've never liked her :csad:

Her death was symbolic of 'hope dying among the crew'

Someone had to do it, to drive the plot forwards and Dee probably had less relevance alive. Now her dying has probably opened up more questions.

[TheCorpulent1]

I got the symbolic part of her death, but I still miss her. I liked the thought of her and Lee giving it another go now that Lee's over his stupid Starbuck phase.

[BlackLantern]

She did it because she wanted that feeling she had with Lee on that night to be the last thing she felt....she, way deep down, didn't believe things would get better so she went out like a sissy....

[union_jak]

I hoped Dee and Lee get some sort of happy ending, and we'd see the Adama family extend finally to include a son (Zak) or daughter (Cassiopeia?). Come to think of it, I remember them saying BSG won't end happily...

I hope it won't be too depressing :(

[LadyVader]

She did it because she wanted that feeling she had with Lee on that night to be the last thing she felt....she, way deep down, didn't believe things would get better so she went out like a sissy....

Word.

Funny how things turn out. Back when New Caprica was established and Lee was falling apart, physically and mentally, Dee was the one who got on his case and tried to snap him out of it because he was going soft.

Now Lee is the one who is keeping it together, and Dee broke down.

[TheCorpulent1]

Only Dee still got him to snap out of it again when he was all "oh noes, what will I ever tell the quorum?" in this episode and she was dealing with, apparently, really serious suicidal tendencies.

[BlackLantern]

I hoped Dee and Lee get some sort of happy ending, and we'd see the Adama family extend finally to include a son (Zak) or daughter (Cassiopeia?). Come to think of it, I remember them saying BSG won't end happily...

I hope it won't be too depressing :(

the show started with the human race being taken from a couple billion people to less than 50,000....it's not a fun time....you want happy, go watch The Cosby Show

[Superfreak]

Like Lee, I'm as upset that we'll never really know why she did it as I am sad that she's gone in the first place. It came pretty much out of nowhere. The only thing I can think of is that she's from that super-religious colony and, in discovering that Earth is a barren wasteland, her faith was effectively shattered.


I like the point about the her colony and the religion. It actually makes the suicide make much more sense. Like what would happen to us today, if suddenly it was proven without a doubt that the Judeo/Christian/Islam scripture was all false? It would be a disaster.

Infact now that I think about it more, I'm actually suprised there wasn't more hopeless suicide throughout the fleet illustrated in the episode.

[LadyVader]

Only Dee still got him to snap out of it again when he was all "oh noes, what will I ever tell the quorum?" in this episode and she was dealing with, apparently, really serious suicidal tendencies.

Lee would've reached a decision eventually. He didn't come to Dee to ask if it's ok to throw Tigh out the airlock, and I think that would've been far more dammaging for his spirit than having to be the bearer of bad news.

[TheCorpulent1]

I like the point about the her colony and the religion. It actually makes the suicide make much more sense. Like what would happen to us today, if suddenly it was proven without a doubt that the Judeo/Christian/Islam scripture was all false? It would be a disaster.

Infact now that I think about it more, I'm actually suprised there wasn't more hopeless suicide throughout the fleet illustrated in the episode.
Well, Roslyn lost her faith too, if that counts. Not quite as emphatic as suicide, but bible-burning's still pretty big.

[The Apocalypse]

I do not mourn for cowards....

After what she did to Billy...arghhhh I can't even speak of it! :cmad:

[TheCorpulent1]

What, broke up with him for being the least interesting character ever?

[BlackLantern]

What, broke up with him for being the least interesting character ever?

Billy was OK....it was bad enough that he was shot dead, but to die right after a girl you thought liked you dumps you for a pretty boy Viper Pilot...

[The Apocalypse]

What, broke up with him for being the least interesting character ever?

He was nice! :csad:

[ttotheusher]

Billy was OK....it was bad enough that he was shot dead, but to die right after a girl you thought liked you dumps you for a pretty boy Viper Pilot...

Pretty much my worst nightmare...:oldrazz::csad:

[BlackLantern]

Pretty much my worst nightmare...:oldrazz::csad:

There was a lot of nerd rage when that happened

[ttotheusher]

There was a lot of nerd rage when that happened

Maybe it was the writers exorcising past demons...

[wobbly]

Read a theory there might more to Dualla's death than meets the eye. The thinking is that she too had a flashback when she dug up the jacks on Earth (they made a point of focusing on them again when Lee went to her corpse), plus her comment on the pictures of herself as a child and her father before blowing her brains out. The flashback maybe being that she saw herself as a child in the past.

Can't say I place much stock in this idea atm (I think it more likely her suicide was to reflect the general hopelessness they would all be feeling and nothing more), but with this show I wouldn't rule anything out.

[Superfreak]

has there been any explanation as to 'why' humanity was exiled from Kobol? Usually when you are exiled, it's for being ba ah aad. This could be a key unknown fact about what is going on