Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[comic book girl]

Is there a Native American mutant besides Forge ?

[OutcryX]

Is there a Native American mutant besides Forge ?

There are a few...quite literally..a few. James Proudstar...formerly Thunderbird II and Warpath...Danielle Moonstar...i think her code name is Karma...Gloria Munoz...aka Risque(she is half seminole/half cuban) and then there is Forge...other than that I cannot think of any others.

[Crowley9]

And John Proudstar for his brief career.

[SuperVenom]

Warpath

[OutcryX]

Warpath

John Proudstar was Thunderbird. Died at the hands of Count Nefaria

Warpath is James Proudstar. His younger brother and only surviving member of their tribe.

[SuperVenom]

John Proudstar was Thunderbird. Died at the hands of Count Nefaria

Warpath is James Proudstar. His younger brother and only surviving member of their tribe.

Ah ok thanks. I get confused with their real names, thanks.

[Zoken]

Danielle Moonstar was actually Mirage, Karma is X'an Mihn Coy, or Shan for short.

[FieryBalrog]

*sigh*

not unexpectedly, this thread has become a bit of a "oppressed minority" discussion... I thought this was going to be about black superheroes? For the record, I am mildly annoyed by the fact that a nation that forms 1/6 of the world's population is represented by 1 whole superhero that I know of, an incredibly obscure and rather dim one at that.

But again, I dont see the need to put on the "badge" of minority status and talk about how marginalized the community is...as some might be doing...

[SuperVenom]

*sigh*

not unexpectedly, this thread has become a bit of a "oppressed minority" discussion... I thought this was going to be about black superheroes? For the record, I am mildly annoyed by the fact that a nation that forms 1/6 of the world's population is represented by 1 whole superhero that I know of, an incredibly obscure and rather dim one at that.

But again, I dont see the need to put on the "badge" of minority status and talk about how marginalized the community is...as some might be doing...

Bishop, Amazon, Storm, Steel, Spike, John Stewart, Blade, etc., theres a lot more than 1.

I tried bringing up others, but no one wants to talk about them. After talking about Bishop for awhile, theres not nothing much to talk about.

[FieryBalrog]

Bishop, Amazon, Storm, Steel, Spike, John Stewart, Blade, etc., theres a lot more than 1.

I tried bringing up others, but no one wants to talk about them. After talking about Bishop for awhile, theres not nothing much to talk about.

:D


I meant India. I'm of Indian ethnicity.

[SuperVenom]

Heres one for ya Fiery:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/amasoni2002/shl/dc/the_indian_superman_(1987).htm

:p

[FieryBalrog]

Heres one for ya Fiery:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/amasoni2002/shl/dc/the_indian_superman_(1987).htm

:p


that really made me laugh, thanks. I shouldn't be totally surprised, they often take popular American movies and remake them in Bollywood.

[comic book girl]

Big thanks to those who answered my question. :-)

[OutcryX]

*sigh*

not unexpectedly, this thread has become a bit of a "oppressed minority" discussion... I thought this was going to be about black superheroes? For the record, I am mildly annoyed by the fact that a nation that forms 1/6 of the world's population is represented by 1 whole superhero that I know of, an incredibly obscure and rather dim one at that.

But again, I dont see the need to put on the "badge" of minority status and talk about how marginalized the community is...as some might be doing...

are u referring to Thunderbird III?

[FieryBalrog]

are u referring to Thunderbird III?yea.

[Arach Knight]

For some reason, when you said 1/6 of the world population, I instantly thought China, even though India has nearly the same number of people. Anyways, Indians shoudn't feel that bad. One of mainstream comics most recognizable faces, has been reimagined as an Indian, rather than a caucasian New Yorker.

http://www.gothamcomics.com/spiderman_india/

That right there good sir, is Spider-Man India. The graphic novel for the first five or so issues, came out just a couple of months ago. Check it out if you care to see what it is all about.

[OutcryX]

I don't like how they keep creating cool new characters then either drop them or relegate them to....for lack of a better word...token status.

Maggot, Marrow, Cecila Reyes, Proudstar, Caliban, Bedlam, Random, Sabra(the isreali mutant) Dust, ThungerBirdIII, Lifeguard, Red Lotus, Generation X.....where are they now?

[The Storm]

Don't let this thread die again!!

[Zoken]

lets talk about the real minority among Marvel's heroes: severly non-humanoid ones. (I'm a Beak fan-boy). we don't really know what ethnicity he was before due to his new look. plus, you've got him with Angel Salvadore and their... was it five or six kids?

[terry78]

This thread lost its main focus pages ago. :p

[The Storm]

I think Lightning needs to write another great essay, asking more questions.

[New Mutant]

We shouldn't let this thread stray so far from the original point. I simply brought up Apocalypse because he is one of the few black super villains in comic books today. I think the point has been made that Egyptians are black. So we should move on from there and return to the main discussion. Not that this hasn't been enlightening...

Up until this thread, I have never thought as Apocalypse (or Black Adam for that matter) as black guys, and now I can't think of them as anything else. (Although I feel almost positive that Black Adam wasn't named that the way they named "Black Lightning", after his ethnicity. Was he???)

Cool.

[Arach Knight]

Well I was really grasping at straws when I listed Black Adam. Sometimes he appears African American (like in a Shazam comic I have) but other times he looks caucasian (like in Infinite Crisis #1). Apocalypse though, I have believed to be "black" ever since his Egyptian heritage was made clear.

[terry78]

It's obvious he's not white, just by his facial structure alone, and his skin is gray due to his mutation, but looking at the area he grew up in, it's pretty obvious.

[Arach Knight]

I don't really follow Shazam, much less DC comics. I bought my first DC book in 7 years, as of last month's release of Supergirl #1. I also picked up JSA Classified, and WildCAts Nemesis (well Wildstorm...but an imprint of DC). So I am not as savy on DC. I just have that one Shazam book...and he looks pretty darn black. Then I saw the preview of Infinite Crisis in last months Wizard...and he didn't look so black. Maybe it was the inker, or maybe his ethnicinty isn't clear. But with a name like Black Adam, one can be hopeful....

[Lightning Strykez!]

I think Lightning needs to write another great essay, asking more questions.


I don't know about "another great essay" per se, :p but let me ask you all this:

What do you guys think of the recent pairing between Storm and T'Challa in the comics? Does it reek of Easy-Bake Solution to you?

Thus far, according to the writers Storm's relationships with black characters have been the most poorly recieved by fans. Her tryst with white or non-black characters i.e. Forge, Wolverine, Cable, etc. have been more warmly welcomed. In fact, it appears that X3 will have her involved with the franchise's other big star Wolverine. Why is that? Why does the sense of interest die when she's not in an interracial relationship?

And does this underscore a larger social issue among white comic fans? Feel free to discuss.

[terry78]

Because the white fanboys can't fantasize about being with her if she's with a black character. That sounds kinda stupid, but ponder it.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Because the white fanboys can't fantasize about being with her if she's with a black character. That sounds kinda stupid, but ponder it.


Do you think it stops at the just fantasy though? I sometimes wonder if it's rooted even deeper along the lines of taboo. It's no revelation that Black Women have been desired by White Men, just as Black Men have coveted the White Woman. Although we have more sophisticated terminologies today, the basic fundamental remains.

And I often wonder if the reason for the lukewarm response to Storm's involvement with powerful male characters of color (i.e. a King like T'Challa) is because some feel that black-on-black love in comics is mundane, ordinary, even uninteresting. Whereas interracial relationships are considered to be pushing the envelope more.

[Arach Knight]

The social implications behind Storm's interracial relations can be viewed in numerous ways. The first logical conclusion drawn, could stem from a social view. Changes have occured in social structures that allow for growth in the number of interracial relationships that exist today. If I am not mistaken, California only appealed the illegal status of interracial marriage, in the mid to late 1950's. With that in mind, we can see that interracial relationships are still a burgeoning trend and not a pedestrian occurence. With a minority status still defining interracial relations, Storm's current partners may be a reflection of this changing value.


The second possible perspective, is one taken from a trendy aspect. For some time, interracial relationships were highly exposed in popular media. Films like Parriah and Jungle Fever examined the often "forbidden" side to an interracial relationship. Television shows like The Jeffersons also explored the "undesired" side to an interracial relationship. Even Wonder Woman has had feelings for a man of "color" in the past. Though homosexuality is the current trendy social statement in the media, interracial relationships have never fully left the public eye. This could be a return to a former trend, in the hopes of raising social conciousness.

[Lightning Strykez!]

You're right Arach. And Wonder Woman wasn't the only one to have a thing for a black character. The Fantastic Four's Invisible Woman bombshell also had a tryst with The Black Panther...and she was yet married to Reed at the time. :eek:

[terry78]

Does that mean we're a threat? :p

[Zoken]

Personally I feel that interracial relationships and friendships are actually hindered by the sort of spotlight they get. People show it like this and more often then not people don't think "They have a point" they think "Thats more hassel than its worth". also it stereotypes both sides. I just think that any realtionship shouldn't be treated as "interracial" and just a relationship.

[spider-jide]

I just think that any realtionship shouldn't be treated as "interracial" and just a relationship.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, society is far too ignorant to understand that logic.

[Zoken]

society is far to ignorant to understand logic, full stop.

[terry78]

Well, we all have that one relative that's against IR relationships. And if you don't know one, you're probably the one. (cliche BET Comic View line)

[Angry Sentinel]

As Terry said earlier, This may sound stupid, but realistically I dont give D##m when Brad Pitt boinks Angelina Jolie, or Rachel whatever! But let him pull up on Halle Berry, Garcias Beauvais, or the like. It would grab my attention. Not just because it's so taboo, but also because An African American is INVOLVED in it. We put ourselves in every aspect of our lives. And it's only after real thought or effort are we able to look at something objectively(or as an impersonal third party). If African Americans were the "majority" in America, then there would be more characters written about them and for them. There would be more tv shows, movies, presidents, head coaches, news, etc... Some issues arent so much a matter of racism, moreso (or firstly) a matter of "me"ism!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Does that mean we're a threat? :p

To some I'm sure we are....

You know, I was watching PBS the other night and they had a special that revisited the O.J. Simpson trial--and the impact it had on whites and blacks. Did anyone else catch this?

Anyway, the broadcast was very interesting, as it pointed out that for as much as we *think* things have gotten better, we've made very, very little progress. And it was all about race: In other words, if O.J. had killed a Black woman that trial wouldn't have gotten half the publicity. If it had been a black man killing a black man--again, no big deal.

But let it be a black man killing a white woman...now that's taboo--and newsworthy. And she was blonde too? :eek: Hell, that's the real forbidden fruit. :rolleyes:


So people today are not as open to Interracial relationships as we like to kid ourselves into believing.

[spider-jide]

Unfortunately that is so true.

[tamron]

IMHO, OJ was about race, but it was also about image. Look at Jayson Williams. Former NBA All-Star with the NJ Nets, he killed a man with a shotgun 'on accident'. No where near as much coverage as OJ. Kobe Bryant, accused of raping, and at the very least, guilty of sleeping with, a white woman, no where near as much pub as OJ. Why?

Because OJ "acted white." He dated white women exclusively before Nicole, and still does. He shunned the stereotype of a 'black athlete.' OJ spoke proper, voted Republican, got admittance into nearly all-white golf clubs, and carried himself mannerably, parlaying that into commercials, announcer gigs, movie roles. So as soon as there was even a chance to bring him down, it was jumped on and capitalized, to show that at the end of the day, nothing you can do can help escape your blackness.

Kobe and Jayson act more 'black' than OJ ever did, which is why though both of them fell from grace, it was no where near as swift or hard.

[Guyverjay]

What exactly is "acting black"??

[spider-jide]

Kobe and Jayson act more 'black' than OJ ever did, which is why though both of them fell from grace, it was no where near as swift or hard.

They didn't act more black, they just weren't frontin' about who they really are, which is something that cant be said for OJ. :o

[Lightning Strykez!]

They didn't act more black, they just weren't frontin' about who they really are, which is something that cant be said for OJ. :o


Says who? A black man can't dress and speak properly and date outside his race? Why is it that a black male HAS to have his pants saggin, talking loud slang, "thugged out" and rude to qualify as "black", while an articulate, sophisticated, educated black man has to be "frontin'"?

That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Just because a black male has the ability to "cross over" and appeal to people of different cultures doesn't qualify him as a "wannabe white" sell-out, "gay" or any other negative sterotype heaped on by jealous African Americans who can't cope in the White Man's world.

And yes, you've struck a nerve. :o

[chamber-music]

I agree with lightning strikes there is no ACTING BLACK as everyone is different and an individual your saying OJ was NOT acting black means he was not the sterotypical Black person. It also sounds like your saying accusations of rape and murder is a part of being black.

[Arach Knight]

They didn't act more black, they just weren't frontin' about who they really are, which is something that cant be said for OJ. :o

That statement held a monumental degree of ignorance. Not to say that I don't believe in the existence of the black stereotype. There is a large portion of the African American community that further spurns on this stereotype. This would include popular hip hop artists, some sports stars and some actors. But not every black man is the victim of unintelligble language, poor fashion choices, "hood rich/ghetto fab" lifestyles. Some of us prefer to adhere to academics. Some of us find worth in exercising our intellect. And some of us keep it more real then half the people who say they "act black." Truth be told, most people who think they act black, couldn't even tell you the first thing about what black really is. Go ask some thug who Fred Hampton is. He may get lucky on Huey P. Newton, but he probably won't have a clue about Fred Hampton. As them about Brown vs. Topeka Kansas. See how "real" they keep it on our history. The only people who "front" being black, are the same ones who refer to each other with a word that has the deepest racist sentiment. The people who think being ignorant is more prized than being intelligent. If life were like Save The Last Dance, i'd much rather be Sean Patric Thomas than Fredro Starr...

[Blade_fan1911]

Says who? A black man can't dress and speak properly and date outside his race? Why is it that a black male HAS to have his pants saggin, talking loud slang, "thugged out" and rude to qualify as "black", while an articulate, sophisticated, educated black man has to be "frontin'"?

That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Just because a black male has the ability to "cross over" and appeal to people of different cultures doesn't qualify him as a "wannabe white" sell-out, "gay" or any other negative sterotype heaped on by jealous African Americans who can't cope in the White Man's world.

And yes, you've struck a nerve. :o

Thank you, just because you don't want to talk like an idiot that instanly makes someone a "sell-out". In fact i never understood why education isn't stressed enough. Instead stuff like "acting black" is.:(

[Zoken]

why must a person "act black" or "Act white" or "act whatever". why must we be confined to such simplistic roles. the truth is that the stereotypes of each race's place is being outlined more and more people people OF THAT RACE. blacks who believe that they are supposed to sound a certain way and act in a certain manner only help those idiots who are stupid enough to still cling to detrimental racisms.

[Lightning Strykez!]

why must a person "act black" or "Act white" or "act whatever". why must we be confined to such simplistic roles. the truth is that the stereotypes of each race's place is being outlined more and more people people OF THAT RACE. blacks who believe that they are supposed to sound a certain way and act in a certain manner only help those idiots who are stupid enough to still cling to detrimental racisms.


Exactly! It just encourages them. Ignorance begets ignorance. That's about as stupid as trying to determine if a person is "black enough" based on how dark their complexion is. As someone who's father is white and mother is black, I can tell you all that people actually have told me I'm "not black enough".


I'm like, "What does that mean?"

[Zoken]

My cousin had never mentioned anything like that to me. he just likes being able to call himself the "token Black Guy." he finds it hilarious. and if anyone doesn't "act black", its him. he's into anime, plays Yu-Gi-Oh cards and listens to O-Town.

[terry78]

My cousin had never mentioned anything like that to me. he just likes being able to call himself the "token Black Guy." he finds it hilarious. and if anyone doesn't "act black", its him. he's into anime, plays Yu-Gi-Oh cards and listens to O-Town.
Hell, there are a lot of white dudes that wouldn't listen to O-Town. I listen to hip hop and jazz mostly though i do enjoy a few rock cuts on occasion. I was bumping some in the car one day and my cousin is like, "why you got that white music on, dude?" I was like, number one, black people invented rock, and number two, there's no such thing.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm surprised that Jide didn't come back? :confused:

[Arach Knight]

I don't blame him. Who would want to return to an argument after making such a poor statement?

[Zoken]

So... whats the next topic?

[OutcryX]

Why did this thread die?!?!

[The Storm]

Its happened before, don't worry it will come back to life some time soon. Did anyone know what Nicolas Cage's favourite comic book character is Luke Cage hence Nick's last name. (trying to get this thread going again)

[Angry Sentinel]

Ok let's revive this thing
why must a person "act black" or "Act white" or "act whatever". why must we be confined to such simplistic roles. the truth is that the stereotypes of each race's place is being outlined more and more people people OF THAT RACE. blacks who believe that they are supposed to sound a certain way and act in a certain manner only help those idiots who are stupid enough to still cling to detrimental racisms. I dont think the original poster Meant "Acting Black" as a stereotype per-se. I just think they were using that classification to make the point that, it's currently how people still perceive each other... consciously or unconsciously.

In other words, we see a specific type of behavior all the time and instantly attribute it to a specific race. Let's be real, stereotypes have roots in truth. There are a large majority of people that will often fit any given stereotype. So it is very likely that their behavior is classified as being "common" and we all probably have at least one or two moments when we succumb to these feelings. It's only after some additional thought that we can begin to just look at the individual.

Exactly! It just encourages them. Ignorance begets ignorance. That's about as stupid as trying to determine if a person is "black enough" based on how dark their complexion is. As someone who's father is white and mother is black, I can tell you all that people actually have told me I'm "not black enough".


I'm like, "What does that mean?"
It means we have way toooo many races and with race (or categorization) comes more categorization, unfortunately. ALL HUMAN BEINGS SEEK TO PUT DEFINITIONS ON EVERYTHING! So the end result will be the "classic" stereotype. And you will either fit this stereotype or you won't.

:up: Dont feel bad, I get the same thing sometimes. Most of us fanboy, Sci-fi, comic, techno geeks dont fit any "racial" stereotype. :rolleyes: So they created different "social" ones for us.

[terry78]

Truth be told, if you see a black guy acting like a crusty old businessman and a white dude acting like Lil' Jon, your eyebrow will raise, because that's something out of the norm as far as what the media portrays.

[Angry Sentinel]

Truth be told, if you see a black guy acting like a crusty old businessman and a white dude acting like Lil' Jon, your eyebrow will raise, because that's something out of the norm as far as what the media portrays. :up: ... and it's not just what the media shows us, we all see certain behavior and classify it. Yes we have been conditioned to do this as well, but I believe it can also be attributed to nature.... So are we by nature racists? Not specifically no, but we are by nature self-aware, and we do by nature attempt to "define" our surroundings. So some part of our actions or re-actions are very natural.

Now the blatant racial indignations, or intentional ones are definitely a concern. And YES they do still exist, just more secretive due in large account to their "unpopularity"(not PC)! Which leads to the next point...

Anyway, the broadcast was very interesting, as it pointed out that for as much as we *think* things have gotten better, we've made very, very little progress. And it was all about race: In other words, if O.J. had killed a Black woman that trial wouldn't have gotten half the publicity. If it had been a black man killing a black man--again, no big deal.
Some part of the reason for this situation is intentional... some is unconscious. Which is more, is for you to decide!

But mostly I want to speak to the broadcast you were referencing. A little while back, I read an article titled "The State of the African-American" in essence magazine or such. It gave factual accounts about our "economic stand point in America today(2003) in direct comparison to the civil rights era (1968).

Our total net worth then = one half of a percentage point
Our total net worth now = one half of a percentage point

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Looks like we got our prayers answered comrades! BEHOLD!!!



AWARD-WINNING AND NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR ERIC JEROME DICKEY
TO PEN SIX-ISSUE LIMITED SERIES OF STORM!

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9104/storm8ua.gif


New Series Reveals the Epic Romance of X-Men Favorite Storm and Black Panther Series to Launch in February 2006, Coinciding With Black History Month


NEW YORK – Eric Jerome Dickey, critically acclaimed author of New York Times bestsellers Thieves’ Paradise, The Other Woman, and Genevieve, has signed on to create a spectacular, six-issue limited series of Storm, spotlighting the ever-popular X-Men heroine. The first highly anticipated issue is scheduled to debut in February 2006, coinciding with Black History Month.

Dickey’s Storm story arc will present an epic romance, revealing the untold love story of the world’s two most popular African American Super Heroes, Ororo (also known as Storm of the X-Men) and T'Challa (a.k.a. The Black Panther), the world's first African American Super Hero. Marking Dickey’s first comic book writing effort, the captivating series blends romance and adventure against the backdrop of Africa’s cruel plains. Emerging star David Yardin (Black Panther, District X) will illustrate the books.

“I never would have imagined that I'd get an opportunity to step into the Marvel Universe and work on Storm,” says Dickey. “She is such a remarkable character. And being allowed to incorporate T'Challa, the future Black Panther in the same series...wake me up because I have to be dreaming.”

The six-issue series follows how the famed African Prince T'Challa crosses paths with Ororo, an orphaned street urchin who only survives by sheer wit as her mutant powers are still in their infancy. As the story and romance unfold, the duo come together to fight against a mutual foe who seeks to put them in a cage and exploit them toward wicked ends.

“This is a truly groundbreaking storyline that will draw in readers from all cultural backgrounds,” said Joe Quesada, Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics. “Eric’s unique vision for this series will thrill traditional comic fans of Storm and The Black Panther, as well as appeal to a whole new audience drawn towards Eric’s remarkable storytelling ability.”


http://marvel.com/company/showarticle.htm?id=148



*Note from Lightning: This is major, MAJOR news!:eek::up:

[OutcryX]

Looks like we got our prayers answered comrades! BEHOLD!!!



AWARD-WINNING AND NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR ERIC JEROME DICKEY
TO PEN SIX-ISSUE LIMITED SERIES OF STORM!

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9104/storm8ua.gif


New Series Reveals the Epic Romance of X-Men Favorite Storm and Black Panther Series to Launch in February 2006, Coinciding With Black History Month


NEW YORK – Eric Jerome Dickey, critically acclaimed author of New York Times bestsellers Thieves’ Paradise, The Other Woman, and Genevieve, has signed on to create a spectacular, six-issue limited series of Storm, spotlighting the ever-popular X-Men heroine. The first highly anticipated issue is scheduled to debut in February 2006, coinciding with Black History Month.

Dickey’s Storm story arc will present an epic romance, revealing the untold love story of the world’s two most popular African American Super Heroes, Ororo (also known as Storm of the X-Men) and T'Challa (a.k.a. The Black Panther), the world's first African American Super Hero. Marking Dickey’s first comic book writing effort, the captivating series blends romance and adventure against the backdrop of Africa’s cruel plains. Emerging star David Yardin (Black Panther, District X) will illustrate the books.

“I never would have imagined that I'd get an opportunity to step into the Marvel Universe and work on Storm,” says Dickey. “She is such a remarkable character. And being allowed to incorporate T'Challa, the future Black Panther in the same series...wake me up because I have to be dreaming.”

The six-issue series follows how the famed African Prince T'Challa crosses paths with Ororo, an orphaned street urchin who only survives by sheer wit as her mutant powers are still in their infancy. As the story and romance unfold, the duo come together to fight against a mutual foe who seeks to put them in a cage and exploit them toward wicked ends.

“This is a truly groundbreaking storyline that will draw in readers from all cultural backgrounds,” said Joe Quesada, Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics. “Eric’s unique vision for this series will thrill traditional comic fans of Storm and The Black Panther, as well as appeal to a whole new audience drawn towards Eric’s remarkable storytelling ability.”


http://marvel.com/company/showarticle.htm?id=148



*Note from Lightning: This is major, MAJOR news!:eek::up:

Hey Lightning...there is already a thread on this major major news

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205611

And I am actually NOT looking forward to this mini series...and not even becuase of Storm or Panther....but becuase of Dickey...am I not much of a fan of his...but it will be quite interesting to see how he adapts from writing romance novels to action comics(unless its a romance comic...eww)

we will wait and see

[Lightning Strykez!]

Hey Lightning...there is already a thread on this major major news

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205611

And I am actually NOT looking forward to this mini series...and not even becuase of Storm or Panther....but becuase of Dickey...am I not much of a fan of his...but it will be quite interesting to see how he adapts from writing romance novels to action comics(unless its a romance comic...eww)

we will wait and see


Yes, I'm aware of Sebita's thread...I just think the news had relevance here as well as it has to do with the future of Marvel's most popular Mutants of Color. It's good to see that Marvel is putting forth the effort to invest some quality in the writing department for Storm. She needs a good romance. :up:

[LittleMissVixen]

edit

[Lightning Strykez!]

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/802/stormtchalla5eb.jpg

I've hosted a larger shot...it appears they have used Angela Basset as an inspiration for this artwork...

[terry78]

Yeah, that's how you do it. Or if Angela wasn't available, at the least -

http://findfamous.com/pictures/golden_brooks.jpg

[OutcryX]

Monica from Girlfriends!!! Yes! YEs!! YES!!! I just had an orgasm! She will definetly do!! Yes indeed!! The chick that plays Toni could do a good job too!! Yum-meee!

[Lightning Strykez!]

She is stunning indeed.

Some have suggested Michael Michele for the role...

http://blackfilm.com/i2/movies/h/howtoloseaguyin10days/005.jpg

...but just because she's black and beautiful doesn't mean she'll make a good strong (but this girl actually has a really commanding voice so aesthetics could be forgiven).

[OutcryX]

I dunno....I dont wat another fair skinned sista in the role...there are PLENTY of undeniable dark skinned beauties WHO CAN ACT TOO out there to do the role justice. But ms. M&M can get it...all of it :)

[Lightning Strykez!]

I dunno. None of these actresses have the clout and box office draw that Halle Berry has tho. I think it's kinda ironic that Marvel's best known female black character is played by Hollywood's best known black actress. :p

[GL1]

To make more glue:

I don't believe 'acting black' as far as racial stereotypes are concerned is so much a concern as being connected to the black community. I wouldn't say Jesse Jackson 'acts black,' but I wouldn't call him a sellout either. Same with Dr. King. Act however you want, but if, as a black person, ALL of your friends are wealthy caucasians and you show absolutely no concern for the African American community, then you have, apparently, turned your back on your culture, "forgotten where you've come from," and the like.

What do you guys think of the recent pairing between Storm and T'Challa in the comics? Does it reek of Easy-Bake Solution to you?

Thus far, according to the writers Storm's relationships with black characters have been the most poorly recieved by fans. Her tryst with white or non-black characters i.e. Forge, Wolverine, Cable, etc. have been more warmly welcomed. In fact, it appears that X3 will have her involved with the franchise's other big star Wolverine. Why is that? Why does the sense of interest die when she's not in an interracial relationship?

And does this underscore a larger social issue among white comic fans? Feel free to discuss.

I LOVE the idea of T'Challa and Storm's past... it's always played in my head as both of their first major romantic experiences. Between the interaction of Storm's worshipful tribe and T'Challa's developing nation, and the raw physical ability each of the characters have, it's awesome to imagine a plot unfolding, culminating in a heart-breaking battle between the two lovers on opposite sides of a brewing war. It just seems like a great story with a sad ending that should be told gloriously.

I have a feeling we won't get that, but a boy can dream, eh?

[terry78]

If someone acts similar to a Carlton Banks but has mostly black friends and is aware of what goes on in the community, that's what we call an intelligent brother, not a sellout. Now if he just doesn't care whatsoever and finds the idea of black people disgusting, then we gots a problem, capiece? ^

[Lightning Strykez!]

If someone acts similar to a Carlton Banks but has mostly black friends and is aware of what goes on in the community, that's what we call an intelligent brother, not a sellout. Now if he just doesn't care whatsoever and finds the idea of black people disgusting, then we gots a problem, capiece? ^


Carlton was an unmitigated mess for more reasons than his blackness. :o

Society today deals in strict absolutes. You're either all this way, or all that way--there is no allottment for middle-ground.

My father is white, but my mother is black and we lived in an all-white suburb, and I attended all-white schools. Yet the vast majority of my friends are black simply due to the way circumstances have turned out. I have many white friends as well, and I can "adjust" to either culture with ease. Doesn't make me a sell-out--it means I've struck a balance. I'm not "pro-black" any more than I am "pro-white"--I am biracial and can't afford to take sides.

[OutcryX]

This thread dies more than Jean Grey (ba-zing!)

[The Storm]

It certainly does!

[tamron]

Ok let's revive this thing
I dont think the original poster Meant "Acting Black" as a stereotype per-se. I just think they were using that classification to make the point that, it's currently how people still perceive each other... consciously or unconsciously.

In other words, we see a specific type of behavior all the time and instantly attribute it to a specific race.

That's exactly what I meant, which is why I put "acting black" in quotations. I figured I didn't have to explain it, silly me. :o

Golden Brooks has the right facial structure for Storm.

[Lightning Strykez!]

This thread dies more than Jean Gray (ba-zing!)


Well, it takes the Soul Of SHH to keep it alive. :o Ya'll ain't got no soul powuhzz!!!! :p

[Lightning Strykez!]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8GyMQ6U0FaxVGX8MLBW-FiLsNvsu2ytzXaTryjLvgy5SR9VBi0gZbVN0tUGlTCkKb0kRIB G7EH2RCgMrJr-lK_WjzFqIq9eAFVKrDlHz/The%20Brotherhood/commission4.jpg

[Angry Sentinel]

Edit...Golden Brooks has the right facial structure for Storm. the Lawd sho-nuff stuffed a lot of fineness in that little package!
... let's see that picture again shall we


http://findfamous.com/pictures/golden_brooks.jpg

[Lightning Strykez!]

Angry, are we the only coloured folk left on SHH? :( Where is the species?

[Angry Sentinel]

I think their "nerd" or "geek" cards are outweighing their "black" license...

*checks license for expiration date; re-affirms watermelon, chicken and pigs feet emblem is authentic*

Everything checks out on mines!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Watermelon makes my gums swell. I lose a turn. :(

[OutcryX]

I'll eat Lightning's watermelon ;)

[terry78]

We're all still here, but the topic keeps on dying. I check it on occasion, but sadly, there are no new issues to talk about because, well, there are no new revalations in the comic world about our folks. :(

[Lightning Strykez!]

We're all still here, but the topic keeps on dying. I check it on occasion, but sadly, there are no new issues to talk about because, well, there are no new revalations in the comic world about our folks. :(

I know. Did you hear that they are thinking about canceling Black Panther? That pisses me off to no end. :o

[OutcryX]

I know. Did you hear that they are thinking about canceling Black Panther? That pisses me off to no end. :o

Wow...didnt Storm just go over to that book to feel some Mandingo lovin from the Panther? That book is like this thread...it keeps dying *ba-zing*

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wow...didnt Storm just go over to that book to feel some Mandingo lovin from the Panther? That book is like this thread...it keeps dying *ba-zing*

You're referring to the miniseries for next year? That's going to be a Storm comic series actually; it won't be under T'Challa's. And it's true, the X-Men have been making guest appearances there; Luke Cage is currently.

Chris Claremont is threatening to shut it down (this is like his 3rd time over the last several years) but I doubt that Joe Quesada is going to let it happen. The book is selling wonderfully, and it continues to get rave critical reviews. In my opinion it's one of the best written, most complex yet underrated comics Marvel owns.

[OutcryX]

You're referring to the miniseries for next year? That's going to be a Storm comic series actually; it won't be under T'Challa's. And it's true, the X-Men have been making guest appearances there; Luke Cage is currently.

Chris Claremont is threatening to shut it down (this is like his 3rd time over the last several years) but I doubt that Joe Quesada is going to let it happen. The book is selling wonderfully, and it continues to get rave critical reviews. In my opinion it's one of the best written, most complex yet underrated comics Marvel owns.


I actually thought that she would be joining the cast of his official comic in addition to their miniseries

[Angry Sentinel]

Edit...(this is like his 3rd time over the last several years) but I doubt that Joe Quesada is going to let it happen. I was just going to say this...

Uuummm, KEEP HOPE ALIVE

[OutcryX]

How can Chris Claremont shut down Black Panther? What I mean is..what authority does he have to do so?

[Lightning Strykez!]

How can Chris Claremont shut down Black Panther? What I mean is..what authority does he have to do so?
He's one of Marvel's top officers.

Have you guys seen the November Black Panther issue?!?!?! One word: WOW. It is some of the most well-written stuff I've read in a while! New writers, new artists and a new storyline. This issue brings Luke Cage himself into the comic; he's now joining T'Challa's side as a regular mainstay in the book. There is also a scene where T'Challa is walking down a sidewalk in the rain and a mirage of Storm's face can be seen in the clouds over him. Powerful stuff...

[terry78]

Haven't seen it, but will check it out. While it's cool to see the team ups, I hope they don't make it a habit of having all the black characters in one book all the time. Storm, BP, and LC all featured in the same book. Granted, they are all black, but their personalities are all as different as can be.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm trying to find a picture of the cover...which to me was awesome in itself!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Ah...I'll just scan one in!

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4586/picture19ya.jpg

[Lightning Strykez!]

Haven't seen it, but will check it out. While it's cool to see the team ups, I hope they don't make it a habit of having all the black characters in one book all the time. Storm, BP, and LC all featured in the same book. Granted, they are all black, but their personalities are all as different as can be.

T'Challa is going to ask for Storm's hand in marriage. This month's issue has it written all over it--especially in the way he deals with this character who has been obviously drawn to look just like Aaliyah! :eek:

[ctvampslayer]

Something about that cover seems "60's SFX" to me. I'm thinking it's Cage's outlines.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Something about that cover seems "60's SFX" to me. I'm thinking it's Cage's outlines.


Actually, it's more 70's retro-hotness.

I think it's schweet! :eek::up:

[S7ilver]

I hope this is on-topic, I found these great images of Marvel's heroes and heroines of color (I'm not sure if they're all of Marvel's, I see Green Lantern so..)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B2.jpg
If only the artist colored them! :)

[LittleMissVixen]

wow....those are awesome photos. I will have to visit this thread more often.

[LittleMissVixen]

T'Challa is going to ask for Storm's hand in marriage. This month's issue has it written all over it--especially in the way he deals with this character who has been obviously drawn to look just like Aaliyah! :eek:

I love how the "punk @ss" celeb and his girlfriend look like P. Diddy and Kim Porter.

[James"007"Bond]

I hope this is on-topic, I found these great images of Marvel's heroes and heroines of color (I'm not sure if they're all of Marvel's, I see Green Lantern so..)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/Silver7striker/B2.jpg
If only the artist colored them! :)

Impressive.

[terry78]

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/

Anyone caught this site yet?

[S7ilver]

Yeah I saw that site, I never knew there were so many Black superheroes. Although I did find a like to an article that I think is a little off

"Most of the time when a Black character (The Falcon, Storm, Green Lantern, Agent J, Captain Marvel, Cyborg, Pete on Smallsville, etc.) emerges in the world of mainstream comic books he or she are simply a watered down side kick or a modern day slave to the White characters in the comic book."
Do they even know who Storm is?..

[The Storm]

Thanks for that Terry!

[terry78]

Now this I like. :D

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/artomonth/artomonth-DSXjpg.jpg

[S7ilver]

Finally, a token white guy lol

[terry78]

Don't forget the lovely Ant.

http://www.newsarama.com/Image/Ant/02/ANT-2-pg-02-03.jpg

[James"007"Bond]

I thought this thread had died...

[terry78]

You can't kill us.

[GNR]

You guys want a nice little arc with some color?Check out the current BP arc which features BP,Cage,Falcon,Shang Chi,and Blade.Even though the book had a rocky start,issue #10 on has been exceptional.

[tamron]

"Most of the time when a Black character (The Falcon, Storm, Green Lantern, Agent J, Captain Marvel, Cyborg, Pete on Smallsville, etc.) emerges in the world of mainstream comic books he or she are simply a watered down side kick or a modern day slave to the White characters in the comic book."
Do they even know who Storm is?..

Storm is the exception, not the rule. Whether real or perceived, many black comic heroes seem to be knockoffs of other characters.


Tyrese is confrimed as Luke Cage, with a second draft on the script pending. Any thoughts? I for one, think it's a horrible casting job, but par for the course of closed-minded John Singleton.

[Lightning Strykez!]

You guys want a nice little arc with some color?Check out the current BP arc which features BP,Cage,Falcon,Shang Chi,and Blade.Even though the book had a rocky start,issue #10 on has been exceptional.


I agree. Hudlin's run is coming together nicely.

[Lightning Strykez!]

You can't kill us.


Certainly not. Especially now, as there is so much to discuss along this subject:

*Tyrese Gibson being seriously considered for Luke Cage

*T'Challa's elevated role in the Marvel Universe

*Storm's upcoming wedding

*The ROLO connection finally having real fufillment in the upcoming X3 film

[terry78]

Now this I like. :D

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/artomonth/artomonth-DSXjpg.jpg
LOL, last dude on the bottom with the dreads, you make him bald and a little les ripped, that's me to a tee. :cool: Well, I at least have a goatee like him.:o

[The Storm]

So Tyrese Gibson is Luke Cage and Terrance Howard (excellent actor) is Diamondback. What are your thoughts?

[The Storm]

So Tyrese Gibson is Luke Cage and Terrance Howard (excellent actor) is Diamondback. What are your thoughts?

[OutcryX]

Has all this Luke Cage stuff been confirmed yet?!?! It is good to see the thread back alive again!?!?!

[The Storm]

I assumed so after I saw the thread on the Marvel film forums.

[GL1]

It has a great deal of potential. Terrence Howard is AWESOME, and, honestly... he can do just about anything. As a villain, especialliy a dark shade of gray as opposed to pure black, he would be the truth. I mean, really... I like everything that man puts his hand to... well... at least his part in it...

As for Tyrese... not sure... Tyrese... well... he really isn't that good an actor... but then, Luke Cage isn't always such a deep introspective soul, honestly... he's pretty much a badass with a point to prove, and, I honestly think Tyrese can pull that off decent. With a good villain, plot and SFX to hold him up, Luke Cage could be a really good movie, no "Matrix," sure... but it could be a lot worse...

Isn't John Singleton attatched to this?

[The Storm]

Yeah, on the Marvel thread it says Singleton didn't want to direct without Tyreses as Cage. I agree with you about Terrance, incredibly talented actor I look forward to his films.

[terry78]

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/diamb110.gif

Diamondback, circa the 1970's.


Terrence Howard.

http://www.raremovieimages.com/movienews/terrence-howard.jpg

[Specter313]

I have to say that Tyrese isn't really that good of a choice for Luke Cage. He's too much of a pretty boy(and it's hard to lose that when you're the main character in a movie called "Baby Boy") when Luke clearly is supposed to be a rough and tumble type of guy. Plus, his acting isn't that good, and just looking at the previews for Annapolis, he can't do "tough guy" that well. A much better choice would have been someone like Mario Van Peebles.

[terry78]

^About 20 years ago, sure.

[Red Mask]

If Tyrese can just buff some more for the movie, I could become more convinced. We'll see as the time passes.

[tamron]

Henry Simmons would be a much better choice for Luke Cage, IMHO.

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050905/23/3564006177.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2985/henrysimmons996pi.jpg

[Lightning Strykez!]

For the posters who inquired about this thread...it was actually in X-World, not here. ;)

[Darthphere]

Hudlin is the worse thing to happen to black characters in the Marvel Universe. I'll never forgive him for making BP utter the line "You're straight trippin' boo."

[Arkady Rossovich]

Bishop was one of my favorite X-Men during the 1990`s,but its sad what was done to him now.I dont think anything will change..color wise...

You can't kill us.

Actually..it has been done before,and its actually going on now.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Hudlin is the worse thing to happen to black characters in the Marvel Universe. I'll never forgive him for making BP utter the line "You're straight trippin' boo."

Amen. :csad:

He really...really doesn't get Storm. At all. I've noticed that lately her eyes don't even go white when she manipulates the weather. I read somewhere that he feels this power manifestation (glowing eyes) somehow competes with T'Challa's greatness, so he's been instructing artists to stop drawing her that way. :rolleyes: He's taken one of Marvel's greatest black heroines and stripped away everything decent about her in favor of appealing to the lowest common denominator--his BET-ridden audience. :o I haven't caught the last 3 issues of BP but I really hope they've gotten it together.

Oh...and speaking of stereotypes: he made Dr. Doom a fricken racist! :cmad:

[Upset Spideyfan]

he made Dr. Doom a fricken racist! :cmad:



Really? :wow: That's just so incredibly stupid. Doom couldn't give a **** about skin color.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Really? :wow: That's just so incredibly stupid. Doom couldn't give a **** about skin color.

My sentiments exactly. It....was disgusting.

First Doom made some comment that black people are superior physical specimens which compensates for their lack of intellect. He then went on to make "Tonto" jokes about T'Challa and said that the only reason the King had any level of smarts was due to a probable "low-grade" mutant strain.

It was offensive--and not just because I'm a man of color. It was offensive because it was stupid...it was wack for the sheer sake of being wack. It read as if Hudlin was deliberately trying to sew in racial conflict in any way he could...even if it meant taking Doom out of character.

[terry78]

^Yeah, that is a bit much. Doctor Doom wants EVERYONE to bow to him, not just the minorities.

[Doctor of Doom]

He made the entire nation of LATVERIA racist.

When the King of a nation who is also an Avenger and a super hero walks down the street casually in costume beside his Queen who also happens to be a renowned super hero and X-man...

...People stare at them....

And the Panther tells Storm "It's because we're black!"

That made me smack my forehead. And then he destroyed the character of Doom, yes. Let us not forget though...

He made him a misogynist too!

[supermarvelman]

If anybody's a racist its Magneto.

[Iron Maiden]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. You know, Reggie got busted by Comic Book Resources. The Black Panther MB over at Alvaro's (that's where I co-mod an FF board) found out he was posting under multiple ID's --- trying to post both as himself and a fan who likes his work! That tells you something there (I will see if I can find the link later)

But getting back to Doom, there is a very old story written by Gerry Conway back in the Astonishing Tales series. Doom tries to sneak into Wakanda and mine some of the vibranium and I think there is a remark where he uses the term "savages". Again, I have to dig that up. I suspect that's where it came from because that was recently reprinted in Essential Super Villian Team Up. The story also was incorrect in giving the impression that Wakanda was a bit backward without the thriving economy in the FF stories. Doom does come away in the end having gained respect for T'Challa.

There are far more events that point to the contrary which to me would negate this one aberration. For example, in the graphic novel, "Emperor Doom", one of his first acts was to eliminate the aparthetid government in South Africa (this was pre-Nelson Mandela). Also, when Doom came back from the Secret Wars and was shut out of Latveria by Kristoff-Doom, he sought out T'Challa to provide him with asylum, which was granted. Of course, he turned on everyone to further his own ends in that story :cwink:

Before Hudlin took over BP (and I truly miss Priest), T'Challa had a big summit meeting with all the monarchs of the MU in his old classroom in NYC in the "Sturm und Drang" storyline. Namor, Magneto, they guy from Lemuria (forgot his name) and Doom all answered his summons, which again would tell me there is still some degree of mutual respect.

My feeling on the matter is Doom would not single out an ethnic group, like the Red Skull, to feel superior to... he feels he is superior to EVERYONE. If anything, if one were to compare Victor's life experiences to T'Challa's, he would be more aware of the evils of racism that T'Challa. After all, he and his Romany tribe the Zefiro were considered the lowest of the low in Latveria while T'Challa lived in a homogenous society and at the very top rung of the ladder.

[GNR]

I don't read Hudlin's BP anymore,but I find all this fan backlash funny as hell.

[LibrarianThorne]

See, I could buy Doom being racist but only if it was against everyone who wasn't, well, Doom. Doom is Doomist, in that, if you're not Doom, you're clearly inferior and oftentimes he will go to great lengths to illustrate just how inferior one really is to the glory that is Doom.

Hudlin, well, Hudlin didn't do that.

[Lightning Strykez!]

My feeling on the matter is Doom would not single out an ethnic group, like the Red Skull, to feel superior to... he feels he is superior to EVERYONE. If anything, if one were to compare Victor's life experiences to T'Challa's, he would be more aware of the evils of racism that T'Challa. After all, he and his Romany tribe the Zefiro were considered the lowest of the low in Latveria while T'Challa lived in a homogenous society and at the very top rung of the ladder.

Exactly.

Victor is a gypsy. He of all people should understand the ills of prejudice. Not saying that minorities can't be bigots too--they can--but Doom has never struck me as one. He wants complete domination, but over all, not just one race.

I thought Hudlin's racist "take" on Victor is yet another example of his lack of understanding and research on these characters.

I also think that his BP book has actually taken high profile black characters like Storm and T'Challa several steps back, not forward.

[blind_fury]

I read one Hudlin BP comic. That was enough for me.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He made him a misogynist too!

Oh, you mean all his snide remarks to T'Challa to get his "female" under subjection? Yeah. :rolleyes:

There is no way in the world the REAL Storm would've taken that comment with a "what's wrong beloved?"

[blind_fury]

Doom is way to classy to reduce himself to any form of bigotry.

[Darthphere]

Man, that whole Hudlin messageboard thing was embarassing, isnt he like the CEO of BET, wow.

[blind_fury]

CEO of BET? :huh:

[Darthphere]

CEO of BET? :huh:

n July 2005, Hudlin was hired as President of Entertainment for BET. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Hudlin)

[Lightning Strykez!]

Doom is way to classy to reduce himself to any form of bigotry.

Agreed. What's most infuriating to me is that this Hudlin guy is BLACK and yet he's revamping characters who don't have a history of bigotry and deliberately giving them this ailment. There are a thousand different ways of creating inter-character conflict and tension without pulling the retarded race card.

Resorting to such means is both stupid and shows a lack of creativity. :down:whatever:

[Lightning Strykez!]

n July 2005, Hudlin was hired as President of Entertainment for BET. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Hudlin)

Aye, but I think that's just for one division of the company. Not that I watch the garbage that's on BET (or MTV for that matter) but I'll weep sad tears if he's their chief executive officer too. :csad:



Man, that whole Hudlin messageboard thing was embarassing, isnt he like the CEO of BET, wow.

What's happened?

[Darthphere]

He pretty much just got caught posting on a messageboard under his name and a few other names acting like fans of his book.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He pretty much just got caught posting on a messageboard under his name and a few other names acting like fans of his book.

Ah, you're talking about what Iron Maiden was referring to? Heh. :rolleyes: Yeah, I'd heard something similar from another site. It's predictable behavior. You know your book sucks when....:rolleyes:

And you're right...he should be far above that...but ego and ambition knows no bounds...especially when you've pissed off 90% of your fanbase. LOL

[CaptainStacy]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. You know, Reggie got busted by Comic Book Resources. The Black Panther MB over at Alvaro's (that's where I co-mod an FF board) found out he was posting under multiple ID's --- trying to post both as himself and a fan who likes his work! That tells you something there (I will see if I can find the link later)

But getting back to Doom, there is a very old story written by Gerry Conway back in the Astonishing Tales series. Doom tries to sneak into Wakanda and mine some of the vibranium and I think there is a remark where he uses the term "savages". Again, I have to dig that up. I suspect that's where it came from because that was recently reprinted in Essential Super Villian Team Up. The story also was incorrect in giving the impression that Wakanda was a bit backward without the thriving economy in the FF stories. Doom does come away in the end having gained respect for T'Challa.

There are far more events that point to the contrary which to me would negate this one aberration. For example, in the graphic novel, "Emperor Doom", one of his first acts was to eliminate the aparthetid government in South Africa (this was pre-Nelson Mandela). Also, when Doom came back from the Secret Wars and was shut out of Latveria by Kristoff-Doom, he sought out T'Challa to provide him with asylum, which was granted. Of course, he turned on everyone to further his own ends in that story :cwink:

Before Hudlin took over BP (and I truly miss Priest), T'Challa had a big summit meeting with all the monarchs of the MU in his old classroom in NYC in the "Sturm und Drang" storyline. Namor, Magneto, they guy from Lemuria (forgot his name) and Doom all answered his summons, which again would tell me there is still some degree of mutual respect.

My feeling on the matter is Doom would not single out an ethnic group, like the Red Skull, to feel superior to... he feels he is superior to EVERYONE. If anything, if one were to compare Victor's life experiences to T'Challa's, he would be more aware of the evils of racism that T'Challa. After all, he and his Romany tribe the Zefiro were considered the lowest of the low in Latveria while T'Challa lived in a homogenous society and at the very top rung of the ladder.

I also seem to remember Doom romancing Ororo a bit over in Uncanny X-Men...dont remember the exact issue, but it was shortly after Byrne left...maybe around #145 or so...

Hudlin needs to do his homework.

[Harlekin]

Even though I dislike Hudlin, he posted once or twice to support his own argument. It's really not that big of a deal.

[Kitsune]

Someday we will see a visual of Doom slaying a minion for programming a Doombot to be racist.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Even though I dislike Hudlin, he posted once or twice to support his own argument. It's really not that big of a deal.

What did he have to say?

As far as it not being a big deal...I dunno Harlekin. To me, it's just another glaring example of his lack of interest in being faithful to these characters' personalities. Storm and T'Challa are BLACK. We get it. But does their ethnicity have to bleed through every panel, conversation, and relationship the two characters have? Must iconic villains like Dr. Doom, etc., be rewritten to also have a racist bone just to offset their blackness?

I also seem to remember Doom romancing Ororo a bit over in Uncanny X-Men...dont remember the exact issue, but it was shortly after Byrne left...maybe around #145 or so...

Hudlin needs to do his homework.

Someone correct me, but wasn't that retconned by Victor himself? I seem to recall him claiming that it was a defective Doombot that fell for Storm.

*goes to search stacks*

[CaptainStacy]

What did he have to say?

As far as it not being a big deal...I dunno Harlekin. To me, it's just another glaring example of his lack of interest in being faithful to these characters' personalities. Storm and T'Challa are BLACK. We get it. But does their ethnicity have to bleed through every panel, conversation, and relationship the two characters have? Must iconic villains like Dr. Doom, etc., be rewritten to also have a racist bone just to offset their blackness?



Someone correct me, but wasn't that retconned by Victor himself? I seem to recall him claiming that it was a defective Doombot that fell for Storm.

*goes to search stacks*


Dont recall, but if so, that Doombot definitely had good taste! :cwink:

[Harlekin]

What did he have to say?

As far as it not being a big deal...I dunno Harlekin. To me, it's just another glaring example of his lack of interest in being faithful to these characters' personalities. Storm and T'Challa are BLACK. We get it. But does their ethnicity have to bleed through every panel, conversation, and relationship the two characters have? Must iconic villains like Dr. Doom, etc., be rewritten to also have a racist bone just to offset their blackness?


That's not what it was about. Doc Doom being a racist? Don't like it either. I was just talking about his impersonating a fan that likes his book.

[Lightning Strykez!]

That's not what it was about. Doc Doom being a racist? Don't like it either. I was just talking about his impersonating a fan that likes his book.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

What did he say when he got busted?

[Harlekin]

Can't recall.

[Iron Maiden]

I will have to go back and check with my co-mods to find out how all that played out on the other message board.

But Cap mentioned the Storm / Doom "romance", which is another example of egos at play in the comic book industry. John Byrne was on the FF when Chris Claremont wrote the story where the X-Men faced Doom (Uncanny #145 or so). The part that got John Byrne's goat was that Arcade struck a match off of Doom's armor... and got away with it :woot:

So, when he wrote the FF#258, which is unique in the FF history because Doom is the "star" of the comic and the FF don't appear, he decided to remedy the slight to Doom's personage. He retconned (in fact, I think the term retcon may have evolved from this incident) the incident into a faulty Doombot, as we can see....

http://members.aol.com/peachy9783/FF259A.jpg


http://members.aol.com/peachy9783/FF259B.jpg

http://members.aol.com/peachy9783/FF259C.jpg



Bryne and Claremont did have a bit of a rivalry back then but years later, Byrne said on his MB that there's really no grudge between them about this. It's just something he felt Doom would never let a minor mook like Arcade get away with and Claremont later agreed.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Exactly.

Victor is a gypsy. He of all people should understand the ills of prejudice. Not saying that minorities can't be bigots too--they can--but Doom has never struck me as one. He wants complete domination, but over all, not just one race.

I thought Hudlin's racist "take" on Victor is yet another example of his lack of understanding and research on these characters.

WHAT research???? :woot:


I also think that his BP book has actually taken high profile black characters like Storm and T'Challa several steps back, not forward.

In term of characterization, yup.

In term of prowess, well, let's just say I ain't touching that one because of the upcoming 'Clor getting owned' thingy. :woot:

[spideyboy_1111]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

See, I could buy Doom being racist but only if it was against everyone who wasn't, well, Doom. Doom is Doomist, in that, if you're not Doom, you're clearly inferior and oftentimes he will go to great lengths to illustrate just how inferior one really is to the glory that is Doom.

Hudlin, well, Hudlin didn't do that.

Doomist. Love it. :D

And there are quite a few things Hudlin doesn't get. :woot:

[blind_fury]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things


Doom is not Hitler. He's classy and doesn't resort to something as pointless as racism.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

Huh, it's sort of canon that Doom is more dignified than that.

[spideyboy_1111]

Doom is not Hitler. He's classy and doesn't resort to something as pointless as racism.

i didnt find it as racist as i found it bigatory... and dooms a big bigot... infact... i felt like he was being more "humanist" then racist... i felt he was implying the mutant gene, rather then skin color.

[spideyboy_1111]

Huh, it's sort of canon that Doom is more dignified than that.

see post above

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

i didnt find it as racist as i found it bigatory... and dooms a big bigot... infact... i felt like he was being more "humanist" then racist... i felt he was implying the mutant gene, rather then skin color.

Bah, how about we settle with the fact that Hudlin just couldn't come up with good villanous one-liners for said scene? :D

[spideyboy_1111]

i dunno... i kinda liked em... to be honest.. and he hit a nerve... thats the doom i like, one who says he wants you to join him, but then degrades you

[spideyboy_1111]

come to think of it... i think doom has a very anti-social problem... i see it alot with home schooled kids or "nerds" who kinda have sheltered themselves into this big bubble, where they have nothing but there brains, there very lonely people so they become very pompous and egotistical. They don't know how to comunicate with others, and are forever stuck inside this shell

[Kitsune]

Doom thinks everyone is inferior to him. I don't think he cares much about weather the dark skin monkeys are superior to the light skinned ones.

(And just to clarify, I'm not calling anyone a monkey, I'm just saying that's how Doom sees us)

[spideyboy_1111]

Doom thinks everyone is inferior to him. I don't think he cares much about weather the dark skin monkeys are superior to the light skinned ones.

(And just to clarify, I'm not calling anyone a monkey, I'm just saying that's how Doom sees us)

i think in this particular case... doom was just trying to justify his superiority... (in his own way) wich came off racist or humanist? mutantist?

[Lightning Strykez!]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments?


I agree with you--Victor is egotistical.

But he's also sophisticated with is ego...he has a purpose...a goal that it feeds. Let us remember that Dr. Doom is one of the most intelligent men of all (MU) time--in Reed Richards' range, mind you. He's met and communicated with every intelligent being out there--from the Phoenix, to Galactus, to every alien in between. Doom has literally seen it all. Therefore he knows better than anyone that there is no scientific evidence that suggests that blacks are inferior to other human races. He knows that's not true--and to suggest he suddenly believes that stupidity is really an insult to his intelligence. :o It trivializes his greatness.


itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

A good writer knows how to make an antagonist's villainy potent without resorting to cliched stereotypes. :whatever:

Sadly, Mr. Hudlin is not--and probably will never be--that good writer. It was blatantly obvious that he was "searching" for a way to get his readers to view Doom as T'Challa's enemy. Instead of creating some sophisticated way of causing a conflict what does he do? Go for the lowest denominator: the race card (TRANSLATION: "I really want my readers--who are mostly black--to hate Dr. Doom as my black protagonist's enemy, so I'll just make this classic villain insult most of my readers! Yeah! That'll get their goat! :rolleyes).

It's wack writing at its zenith. :cmad:

[spideyboy_1111]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

[Lightning Strykez!]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

And that's fine.

But I don't believe he would stoop to the racist garbage that the "mortals" beneath him resort to. That would be confirmation that he subscribes to their manner of thinking and again, this is out of character for Victor.

He would consider such foolishness to be petty--not indulge in it himself.

[Upset Spideyfan]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Good use of analogy there Upset Spideyfan.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

The point we're making is that DOOM wouldn't HAVE to resort to RACE. Like, EVER.

Hell, if anything he'd be ashamed at not coming up with something more clever or ruthless.

[Iron Maiden]

For the curious, here is Rich Johnston's Lying in the Gutters (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2642) where he reports on the posts Hudlin made on the Black Panther MB under different names.

[spideyboy_1111]

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

but like i said, i found it to be more of him being offensive torward mutants, in that there "special" because how they were born, not by earning it, rather then being racist

[spideyboy_1111]

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

ahh but did doom DIRECTLY say Black? or Race? he never said black, but race wise one could argue the mutant race, after all he reffered to T'challa as having a latent mutant gene within the biggatory comments

[spideyboy_1111]

And that's fine.

But I don't believe he would stoop to the racist garbage that the "mortals" beneath him resort to. That would be confirmation that he subscribes to their manner of thinking and again, this is out of character for Victor.

He would consider such foolishness to be petty--not indulge in it himself.

see last post

[highguard]

You know I think that this is endemic of a greater problem at marvel which must go all the way to the top. There have been in the last few years too much mischaracterization of characters in ways that seem to be deliberately designed to shock the readers.

I think this is an editorial and ultimately a culture that must be coming from the editor in chief, namely Mr Joe Queseda. Something is off.

In the recent blockbuster civil war storyline, many of the primary characters are unrecognizable.

Recently Gwen Stacy has become through a retcon a bedhopper and a cheat.

Crystal of the Inhumans... same thing and situation as Gwen.

The Rawhide Kid who I grew up reading was recently revealed as being Gay. This is hard to wrap your mind around as this obviously is not how the character was presented in his debut or decades of continuity.

Thor decided a while back that he should rule the world and tell men what to do, although this was possibly the one that was best explained but probably hurt that book tremendously.

Doom himself actually kidnapped and threatened the Richards Children and with intent, worse he killed his lifelong love. This to me is way out of character for Doom.

And now to hear this from Black Panther, honestly I liked the early issues when Romita Jr was doing the art and I enjoyed the Black Centric storyline and dealing with historical realities but yeah letting it drip into characteriztions that are off shows a lack of creativity.

And here people may be the heart of the problem. Maybe the "House of Ideas" has run out of ideas. If everything has already been done what is left, basically the storylines that no one would write or were unwilling to write until now.

Clearly the powers that be at marvel think that these are the only stories left to be told.

So we should prepare ourselves for the desecration of many things once thought sacred at the house of ideas.

We live in a time where this kind of story is not really very far off;

"Susan Richards pregnant with the Submariner's child"!



Nuff said.

[spideyboy_1111]

You know I think that this is endemic of a greater problem at marvel which must go all the way to the top. There have been in the last few years too much mischaracterization of characters in ways that seem to be deliberately designed to shock the readers.

I think this is an editorial and ultimately a culture that must be coming from the editor in chief, namely Mr Joe Queseda. Something is off.

In the recent blockbuster civil war storyline, many of the primary characters are unrecognizable.

Recently Gwen Stacy has become through a retcon a bedhopper and a cheat.

Crystal of the Inhumans... same thing and situation as Gwen.

The Rawhide Kid who I grew up reading was recently revealed as being Gay. This is hard to wrap your mind around as this obviously is not how the character was presented in his debut or decades of continuity.

Thor decided a while back that he should rule the world and tell men what to do, although this was possibly the one that was best explained but probably hurt that book tremendously.

Doom himself actually kidnapped and threatened the Richards Children and with intent, worse he killed his lifelong love. This to me is way out of character for Doom.

And now to hear this from Black Panther, honestly I liked the early issues when Romita Jr was doing the art and I enjoyed the Black Centric storyline and dealing with historical realities but yeah letting it drip into characteriztions that are off shows a lack of creativity.

And here people may be the heart of the problem. Maybe the "House of Ideas" has run out of ideas. If everything has already been done what is left, basically the storylines that no one would write or were unwilling to write until now.

Clearly the powers that be at marvel think that these are the only stories left to be told.

So we should prepare ourselves for the desecration of many things once thought sacred at the house of ideas.

We live in a time where this kind of story is not really very far off;

"Susan Richards pregnant with the Submariner's child"!



Nuff said.

i agree to an extents... but...

we still dont know really what happened the night norman slept with gwen... we were never given a "real" reason behind it... and we might never... kinda like wheres kaine and baby may?

Crystal in my eyes can sleep with whoever she wants... shes not cheating on anyone, its pretty clear she can hardly stand pietro these days, and what he did to the inhumans, last thing she needs to be is loyal to him

as for people being gay, get used to it, someone coming out is sometimes a shocker... its not always obvious and i see nothing wrong with that... its realistic.

but i do agree that the house of Ideas, is indeed running out.. because its all shock value

[highguard]

i agree to an extents... but...

we still dont know really what happened the night norman slept with gwen... we were never given a "real" reason behind it... and we might never... kinda like wheres kaine and baby may?

Crystal in my eyes can sleep with whoever she wants... shes not cheating on anyone, its pretty clear she can hardly stand pietro these days, and what he did to the inhumans, last thing she needs to be is loyal to him

as for people being gay, get used to it, someone coming out is sometimes a shocker... its not always obvious and i see nothing wrong with that... its realistic.

but i do agree that the house of Ideas, is indeed running out.. because its all shock value


You misunderstand what I am saying, but its my fault, I should have been clear in what I was talking about.

Recently in an issue of new avengers, #24 it was revealed that one time Johnny and Crystal had a fight and that she basically went off and slept with the Sentry a character no one remembers, I just thought that the Crystal of those days, like Gwen would never do that.

On the Rawhide issue, buddy, people can do what they want, that is why God gave us free will, I may not think that it is a good thing, the homosexual lifestyle but that is why Jesus came I believe to help us overcome things that are not good and all of us have things in us that are not good. So none of us can throw stones.

Of course I am aware that some people feel there is nothing wrong with being gay and as I said we are free to believe what we want.

I was not throwing a stone at people who were or are gay, what I was saying is that it is not how the character was first presented and as such it is like eliminating decades of continutity of a character and how you view them.

Now i think that they wanted to do a story where they took a famous character who was NOT KNOWN to be gay and out him to get maximum traction but I am suggesting that this is the same as taking DOOM who is not known to be a racist and making him one by Hudlin.

The change is so shocking as to be unbelievable and hard to grasp.

And for me it is easier to grasp DOOM as a racist than the Raw Hide Kid as gay. Cause you can't go much farther than changing a character than that.

That is the point I was making.

[spideyboy_1111]

the thing you don't understand, is unless rawhide was shown as a johnny storm or iceman kinda player and having his way with women... thats one thing, but you'd be shocked at how many masculine gay men are out there... ones you would NEVER ever guess... and hell many gay men even do sleep around with women because they are in denile.... and that later calls serious problems... so ya you might be upset a hero you liked "switched sides" but i say get over it, its still the same character, he just likes the same sex.. if you can't handle it then realise theres a problem with yourself, not the character

[highguard]

^^ Well I have many problems so I guess I better go deal with them and accept that the Rawhide storyline should not have raised any eyebrows.

In any case I was just saying that Marvel is doing a lot of shock type stories and I think they may feel they have no other place to go and I think that with a little bit of imagination they could avoid butchering characters.

[spideyboy_1111]

hey...people seem very accepting of Batwoman becoming a lesbian... i see nothing wrong with Rawhide becoming gay... esp since hes kinda a no name character... where not many will care. Least of wich should be shocking about rawhide... hes not a big enough character.

[spideyboy_1111]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

[highguard]

^^ Even more shocking is what they did to Gwen Stacy, not a no name character but a revision that changes the entire perception of one of the most beloved characters in all of Marvel.

I still can't believe that one, and that is one I think they have to fix or Spiderman will have lost a piece of the heart of what made him who is is.

[highguard]

hey...people seem very accepting of Batwoman becoming a lesbian... i see nothing wrong with Rawhide becoming gay... esp since hes kinda a no name character... where not many will care. Least of wich should be shocking about rawhide... hes not a big enough character.


Been out of the loop on DC stuff, did not know about this and yeah she is a much bigger character than Rawhide.

Well gotta catch some sleep but this is an interesting discussion.

[spideyboy_1111]

honestly.. it doesnt change my perception much... but then again, i still truely believe she was drugged... and "thinks" she made the choice.. kinda like how when people are drunk and know what they did the next day, just don't know why... thus she blamed herself and felt ashamed

[Lightning Strykez!]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

Interesting. Why does that offend you? You think his name suggests having sex bareback or is it this reference:

http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Rawhide_kid_2.jpg

[Darthphere]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

That was his name long before they made him gay.:huh:

[Malus]

You misunderstand what I am saying, but its my fault, I should have been clear in what I was talking about.

Recently in an issue of new avengers, #24 it was revealed that one time Johnny and Crystal had a fight and that she basically went off and slept with the Sentry a character no one remembers, I just thought that the Crystal of those days, like Gwen would never do that.

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice. :up:
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.

[highguard]

^^ Yeah Bendis seems to be very efficient at screwing over characters.

[supermarvelman]

I dont have any problem with homosexuality, so to me there is absolutely no shock value in a character that is gay or lesbian.

[Lightning Strykez!]

That was his name long before they made him gay.:huh:

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy? :confused:

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw." :csad:

*wipes bleeding eyes*

[supermarvelman]

I thought the name sounded gay before he ever became gay.

[Lightning Strykez!]

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice. :up:
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.

Amen--you hit the nail on the head bro.

With all these "erractic" character changes and baseless relationship fluctuations (i.e. Storm's microwaved "marriage" to T'Challa, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if Q & Co. all get fired one day and a huge retcon comes through...like Wanda strikes again or something. :whatever:

Oh...and I can sooo see Namor being Susan's baby daddy under the current circumstances. She and Reed are never going to be the same. :csad:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy? :confused:

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw." :csad:

*wipes bleeding eyes*

rotflmao. :woot: :woot: :woot:

But yeah, I never thought his name was gay innuendo or anything... :huh:

[Malus]

Amen--you hit the nail on the head bro.

With all these "erractic" character changes and baseless relationship fluctuations (i.e. Storm's microwaved "marriage" to T'Challa, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if Q & Co. all get fired one day and a huge retcon comes through...like Wanda strikes again or something. :whatever:

Oh...and I can sooo see Namor being Susan's baby daddy under the current circumstances. She and Reed are never going to be the same. :csad:

A one-shot "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type thing on one of the traditional skip weeks that turns the clock back on EVERYTHING since X-Men #136 would be fine by me.
Then resume publishing as if everything since 1981 has been a dream.

I'm half-kidding of course...

But I do think most of the real damage has been done in the years since then.
All the mishandled characterization... The Clone Saga.... The Gwen Stacey crap last year. I'm not even reading most of the junk they're turning out these days, so I can't imagine how unrecognizable the X-Men has become...But I know that Dr.Doom killing his first love and creating a mystic armor out of her skin for Christ's sake....THAT was seriously screwed up.

The Marvel characters have been dead for years now.
What we try to enjoy every month these days is just product.

It's just not the same anymore, especially for the young reader. Just last year we had Morlun plucking out Spider-man's eye and eating it - in the pages of a main line Spidey title, not the "mature" Knights title...WHO in their right mind would want that to be some 8-year old's first Spiderman comic??
If the comics of my childhood had been a fraction as disturbing and inappropriate as much of Marvel's main line titles are today, I know that comics would have been off-limits for me and many others.

Marvel is undermining their future by appealing almost exclusively to the 24-year old male.

A whole generation of comics readers...isn't coming.
Of the few that do start reading comics, most of them (a much higher percentage than generations past) will drift away (there's just too much competing media now) and as a result they will not be making the weekly visits to the shops the way so many of us have.

Superhero comics began as juveniule literature, and there's nothing wrong with that. But Stan and company managed to craft exciting juvenile literature that adults could also enjoy.
Quesada and company don't have a freakin' clue.

[LouFerignoDemon]

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice. :up:
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.


I could not have said it better myself.

And someone said something about Namor being Sue's kid's father?

Unfortunately, given Marvel's current handling, I've been dreading that possibility for a while now.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

A one-shot "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type thing on one of the traditional skip weeks that turns the clock back on EVERYTHING since X-Men #136 would be fine by me.

:woot: :woot: :woot:


But I know that Dr.Doom killing his first love and creating a mystic armor out of her skin for Christ's sake....THAT was seriously screwed up.

Definitely one of those 'wtf' moments. Would comment on the Gwen thingy, but I haven't read Spidey in ages. Will do a bit of a search and most likely agree. :woot:

Edit: OMFG. Osborn twins??? *gags*


Marvel is undermining their future by appealing almost exclusively to the 24-year old male.

Huh. Kinda fit the bill and agree with pretty much all of your points. :cwink:

[spideyboy_1111]

Interesting. Why does that offend you? You think his name suggests having sex bareback or is it this reference:

http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Rawhide_kid_2.jpg

its just to cliche.. kinda degrading there like.. hey this is kinda a funny gay sounding name lets make this character gay in an out of continuity limited series

[spideyboy_1111]

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy? :confused:

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw." :csad:

*wipes bleeding eyes*

like i said... its like they took a gay sounding name.. and went ooo lets make him gay.. cuz no strait cowboy would namehimself that

[LouFerignoDemon]

How is his name stereotypical?

[spideyboy_1111]

How is his name stereotypical?

you don't think its a bit of a stereo typical thing to see a cowboy named "rawhide kid" and think... "what a gay name" and then go and make the guy gay? not only gay.. but a cover thats extremely flamboyant?

[Darthphere]

you don't think its a bit of a stereo typical thing to see a cowboy named "rawhide kid" and think... "what a gay name" and then go and make the guy guy? not only gay.. but a cover thats extremely flamboyant?

Thats not a stereotype, thats stupid, there's a difference.

[spideyboy_1111]

Thats not a stereotype, thats stupid, there's a difference.

well as a gay male, i feel its playing off the flamboyant stereotype the entertainment industry is obsessed with... or was in the early 2000's... least we now have people like billy and teddy who are real... and dont play into a stereo type

[Darthphere]

well as a gay male, i feel its playing off the flamboyant stereotype the entertainment industry is obsessed with... or was in the early 2000's... least we now have people like billy and teddy who are real... and dont play into a stereo type

But there are flamboyant gays though. Steroetypes always have some truth behind them.

[spideyboy_1111]

But there are flamboyant gays though. Steroetypes always have some truth behind them.

yes i know this, but when the media 99% of the time only shows this.. thats what spreads homophobia... soo many people i know when they find out im gay or someones gay there always like... "your (or he) arn't(/Isnt) "girlie" are you (is he)" its annoying

[deemar325]

But there are flamboyant gays though. Steroetypes always have some truth behind them.


yeah it's one of the reasons why my wife wanted to have sex with me when we first met, to see if it's true.












I didn't dissappoint. :woot:

[Darthphere]

yes i know this, but when the media 99% of the time only shows this.. thats what spreads homophobia... soo many people i know when they find out im gay or someones gay there always like... "your (or he) arn't(/Isnt) "girlie" are you (is he)" its annoying

But its true for a lot of gays. Why should we only represent one type of gay, because thats offensive to other homosexuals?:huh:

[spideyboy_1111]

But its true for a lot of gays. Why should we only represent one type of gay, because thats offensive to other homosexuals?:huh:

yes but what you don't understand is the majority really isn't queeny... alot arn't ALOT... and we (that half) get sick and tired of always being represented that way... people think the "queens" rule because thats the most standing out type you can think... plus its VERY obvious.... and unfortunatly people believe what they see... and when they don't know alot of strait "acting" (i say acting not as in "faking" but as in a way a persons personality is) they believe that its impossible for a gay guy to not be "obviously" gay

[Darthphere]

yes but what you don't understand is the majority really isn't queeny... alot arn't ALOT... and we (that half) get sick and tired of always being represented that way... people think the "queens" rule because thats the most standing out type you can think... plus its VERY obvious.... and unfortunatly people believe what they see... and when they don't know alot of strait "acting" (i say acting not as in "faking" but as in a way a persons personality is) they believe that its impossible for a gay guy to not be "obviously" gay

Do you have statistics to back those claims up? I mean you say the majority aren't "queeny" but is that actually true? I mean, should every black character created be like Luke Cage, because someone percieves that to be how the majority of black people are? Thats ridiculous. The depiction of a "queeny" homosexual is just as correct as any other, and equally as viable. Your argument also has no merit since most gay characters in the Marvel Universe are not "queeny" so we're talking exception to the rule here.

[Eros]

yes but what you don't understand is the majority really isn't queeny... alot arn't ALOT... and we (that half) get sick and tired of always being represented that way... people think the "queens" rule because thats the most standing out type you can think... plus its VERY obvious.... and unfortunatly people believe what they see... and when they don't know alot of strait "acting" (i say acting not as in "faking" but as in a way a persons personality is) they believe that its impossible for a gay guy to not be "obviously" gay

You are gay?:huh:

[deemar325]

Queens are real.

[Red Mask]

Hey everybody! This week Luke Cage kicked Elektra in the ****! Now don't you be calling Luke a 'misogynist' now. Elektra's become a villain and a cult leader! It comes with the job.

[spideyboy_1111]

Do you have statistics to back those claims up? I mean you say the majority aren't "queeny" but is that actually true? I mean, should every black character created be like Luke Cage, because someone percieves that to be how the majority of black people are? Thats ridiculous. The depiction of a "queeny" homosexual is just as correct as any other, and equally as viable. Your argument also has no merit since most gay characters in the Marvel Universe are not "queeny" so we're talking exception to the rule here.

dude.. all im saying is there are alot of us out there... your not going to find statistics on "us" because your not going to get alot of guys taking a test saying "are you queenie or not" hell alot of people think there not queenie when they are.. lol. im just telling you there alot of us out there... i live in LA, i know alot of gay guys... and i know this to be true based on the amount i've met... trust me the angry black male routine is played out too much too like with luke cage and patriot... and i get what your saying by having it be an exception to the rule.. the queenieness is fine.. and its an alternate universe so its not as if it really even counts... but none the less they found a marvel character whos name by todays standard would come off as "gay" ... so they make him that way... the idea behind that is offensive..

[Darthphere]

dude.. all im saying is there are alot of us out there... your not going to find statistics on "us" because your not going to get alot of guys taking a test saying "are you queenie or not" hell alot of people think there not queenie when they are.. lol. im just telling you there alot of us out there... i live in LA, i know alot of gay guys... and i know this to be true based on the amount i've met... trust me the angry black male routine is played out too much too like with luke cage and patriot... and i get what your saying by having it be an exception to the rule.. the queenieness is fine.. and its an alternate universe so its not as if it really even counts... but none the less they found a marvel character whos name by todays standard would come off as "gay" ... so they make him that way... the idea behind that is offensive..

Though, you're assuming that. You have no real evidence to back that up. I mean Two-Gun Kid can be percieved as gay as well.

[Eros]

Queens are real.

Most gay people I have meant in school, and other places,pretty much fit the stereotype. The truth is, the reason why the "queens" are more known then the averge gay dudes, is because alot of the "Queens" run their mouths, and act like they are above everyone else. Like that Ian guy from American Idol.

[spideyboy_1111]

Though, you're assuming that. You have no real evidence to back that up. I mean Two-Gun Kid can be percieved as gay as well.

why? guns usually reffer to muscles.. not phallus

All im stating is my point of view coming from a Gay man... as other black men and women have been offeneded by hudlin's remarks coming from doom... i didnt find them offensive... cuz i didnt think they were refered to race but mutant gene... though i would prob think different if i was black... just like you arn't understanding how i feel since im gay

[deemar325]

Most gay people I have meant in school, and other places,pretty much fit the stereotype. The truth is, the reason why the "queens" are more known then the averge gay dudes, is because alot of the "Queens" run their mouths, and act like they are above everyone else. Like that Ian guy from American Idol.

The gay people I know are seriously limp wristed. You might find the occassional 'tough guy' homosexual, but usually they're pretty sissyfied.

[spideyboy_1111]

Most gay people I have meant in school, and other places,pretty much fit the stereotype. The truth is, the reason why the "queens" are more known then the averge gay dudes, is because alot of the "Queens" run their mouths, and act like they are above everyone else. Like that Ian guy from American Idol.

exactly.. plus alot of the "strait" ones don't wanna be thought as, as the "gay guy" that doesnt define who we are.. its just a part of who we are... and alot are closeted.. so you cant always tell if there gay.. hell i know gay guys who knew they were gay for years.. but were so paranoid they slept with women for years... because they couldnt admit to themselves that they were gay

[Darthphere]

why? guns usually reffer to muscles.. not phallus

All im stating is my point of view coming from a Gay man... as other black men and women have been offeneded by hudlin's remarks coming from doom... i didnt find them offensive... cuz i didnt think they were refered to race but mutant gene... though i would prob think different if i was black... just like you arn't understanding how i feel since im gay

I understand plenty. I just see this as a gross over reaction.

[spideyboy_1111]

I understand plenty. I just see this as a gross over reaction.

well you wouldnt.. because you seem to think majority of gay guys are limp wristed femy boys... :o

[Darthphere]

well you wouldnt.. because you seem to think majority of gay guys are limp wristed femy boys... :o

Yes, because thats what I said. I actually said quite the opposite. To me it seems like you're projecting your own insecurities toward your homosexuality.

[deemar325]

well you wouldnt.. because you seem to think majority of gay guys are limp wristed femy boys... :o


Hey sorry if I offended you Spidey, I'm insensitive at times. I'm just saying dude a good chunk of gay guys mannerisms are like women.


That's not to say a gay dude can't be a person of strong character, just that it's kinda hard to respect a guy who acts in a feminate way.

[spideyboy_1111]

Hey sorry if I offended you Spidey, I'm insensitive at times. I'm just saying dude a good chunk of gay guys mannerisms are like women.


That's not to say a gay dude can't be a person of strong character, just that it's kinda hard to respect a guy who acts in a feminate way.

o i agree, which is why i get tired of people thinking the majority is that way... you'd be surprised at how many "Strait" actors in hollywood are really gay... and how many "strait" gay guys there are... its just not fun to be lumped into a group full of "fems" when everyone thinks thats what being gay is because that group stands out the most.. because they demand attention... and thats what the media likes to show because its "comical"

[spideyboy_1111]

Yes, because thats what I said. I actually said quite the opposite. To me it seems like you're projecting your own insecurities toward your homosexuality.

dude.. im perfectly fine with my sexuality... i just get frustrated when people assume i'm something im not.. and i know alot of "us" feel that way

[deemar325]

o i agree, which is why i get tired of people thinking the majority is that way... you'd be surprised at how many "Strait" actors in hollywood are really gay... and how many "strait" gay guys there are... its just not fun to be lumped into a group full of "fems" when everyone thinks thats what being gay is because that group stands out the most.. because they demand attention... and thats what the media likes to show because its "comical"


I hear ol' Johnny travolta is a 'Pitch Hitter'.

I get your annoyance on the stereotype of the 'Queen' but sometimes you can use a stereotype to your advantage. Me, I'll cop to the fact I'll play up the scary big black guy thing too get ahead of a line at the movies or if I'm not in the mood to be bothered with co-workers, I'll beef up the angry blackman bit to be left alone to my thoughts.

[spideyboy_1111]

I hear ol' Johnny travolta is a 'Pitch Hitter'.

I get your annoyance on the stereotype of the 'Queen' but sometimes you can use a stereotype to your advantage. Me, I'll cop to the fact I'll play up the scary big black guy thing too get ahead of a line at the movies or if I'm not in the mood to be bothered with co-workers, I'll beef up the angry blackman bit to be left alone to my thoughts.

lol you mean like if i don't wanna carry something heavy or do something that just so happens to be "manly" i should use being gay as a cop out? lol see.. with being black it usually makes you "scary" or tougher... with stereotypes.. with gays.. kinda makes us weaker

[Nokio]

My sentiments exactly. It....was disgusting.

First Doom made some comment that black people are superior physical specimens which compensates for their lack of intellect. He then went on to make "Tonto" jokes about T'Challa and said that the only reason the King had any level of smarts was due to a probable "low-grade" mutant strain.

It was offensive--and not just because I'm a man of color. It was offensive because it was stupid...it was wack for the sheer sake of being wack. It read as if Hudlin was deliberately trying to sew in racial conflict in any way he could...even if it meant taking Doom out of character.

I truly despise Hudlin's writing. Both Storm and T'Challa are so out of character, that i'm surprised that Hudlin is still writing BP or more to the point that Marvel is still letting him write it. This man has no writing skills in my opinion and he doesn't even set up complex stories. He has declassed BP and Storm. Hudlin has played into every cliche that the entertainment industry does on black people. These characters are not the knuckle headedness that goes on over at BET, which very sadly Hudlin has a hand in shaping.

As a black man I don't get what is going on in this man's head. His work as well as others are the reason I stopped watching BET, and now sadly, and as much as i want to support a comic featuring a person of color i no longer will support BP. Both him and Storm are iconic and classy characters and Hudlin in his short run has undone all the backstory that other writers have set up. Well maybe that's a bit over the top, but I DO NOT LIKE THIS MAN'S INVOLVEMENT OVER AT AARVEL. Please dear god no more Luke Cage /50 Cent guest appearences.

[Nokio]

I don't know what both marvel and Hudlin were thinking with that Doom debacle.Doom a racist? I've always thought of Doom as being above the pettiness of racism considering his intelligence. What was Marvel thinking. A black writer does not equal the sole authority on black characters. There are talented black writers out there that can do BP justice if marvel for some strange reason has to put a black writer on BP.

[Fried Gold]

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1473/emotgaylv3.gif

[Lightning Strykez!]

you don't think its a bit of a stereo typical thing to see a cowboy named "rawhide kid" and think... "what a gay name" and then go and make the guy gay? not only gay.. but a cover thats extremely flamboyant?

Actually, no. No I don't. Now, if they had made a character named "Dick Gayson" or "Ursa Major" gay...then yeah, I could see it. But Rawhide Kid? Meh. I think Rawhide Kid is a wack name--gay or Str8 actually. :oldrazz:


The gay people I know are seriously limp wristed. You might find the occassional 'tough guy' homosexual, but usually they're pretty sissyfied.

Really? That's interesting because as a bodybuilder in New York I know/have met a lot of men in the life--especially at the gym where I train. And you know what? The most cut-up, masculine cats that frequent our joint are gay.

The same can be said for many of the Pro-bodybuilders in the IFBB circuit. Seeeeriously, some of the biggest, "straight-acting" cats (you know--the ones that have the blonde bimbo babes draping themselves all over them on the Flex Magazine covers :whatever: ) are tricking for men of every shape, age and profession. No limp wrists, lisps, or finger-snapping there...they're totally manned-up. Yet, later you find out through the grape vine that they get down on the low...and off the "gaydar". The difference? They're discreet with it and choose to conduct themselves as men first and foremost--at all times.

Ironically, the media doesn't play that version of gay male life up...at all. I guess it's not sensational enough. Now, don't get me wrong--I do see plenty of these....

http://images.zap2it.com/20050304/inlivingcolor_240_001.jpg


...skipping around the burroughs too. But over the years, I've learned that it's the cats dipped in thuggery--the ones holding up the walls nodding their heads saying "sup"--that are the real "queens"...not necessarily the "fembots."

[Lightning Strykez!]

I truly despise Hudlin's writing. Both Storm and T'Challa are so out of character, that i'm surprised that Hudlin is still writing BP or more to the point that Marvel is still letting him write it. This man has no writing skills in my opinion and he doesn't even set up complex stories. He has declassed BP and Storm. Hudlin has played into every cliche that the entertainment industry does on black people. These characters are not the knuckle headedness that goes on over at BET, which very sadly Hudlin has a hand in shaping.

As a black man I don't get what is going on in this man's head. His work as well as others are the reason I stopped watching BET, and now sadly, and as much as i want to support a comic featuring a person of color i no longer will support BP. Both him and Storm are iconic and classy characters and Hudlin in his short run has undone all the backstory that other writers have set up. Well maybe that's a bit over the top, but I DO NOT LIKE THIS MAN'S INVOLVEMENT OVER AT AARVEL. Please dear god no more Luke Cage /50 Cent guest appearences.

Truer words have never been spoken my friend.

His writing insults me--not only as a fan--but also as an African American male. You would think he'd use this privelege of writing to open new doors of creativity...to blaze new trails...and take a B-list character like the Panther to new levels of sophistication. But instead of enlightening us with something groundbreaking--or at the very least entertaining--he's chosen to plod through tired-ass, played-out black stereotypes that do nothing but alienate readers of other cultures. And most revolting of all is the fact that there are several examples in his writing where he is deliberately spitting sly insults at comic readers who don't care for his vibe. Way to go Mr. Professional. :whatever:

The whole intention of marrying the Black Panther to Storm was to expand the former's fanbase. Through his arrogance, haughtiness, literary incompetence and lack of canon knowledge Hudlin has wasted this opportunity. As a result, Storm, T'Challa, Doom, and anyone else he gets his grimy hands on...is being tarnished.

I've read all Hudlin's BP stuff. Even bought some of it for a while. And I'm all for black writers getting chances to write high profile monthly titles. But can we please get some with a modicum of--oh, I dunno--TALENT? Yeah. :rolleyes:

[Anubis]

It hasn't been that bad.

[Lightning Strykez!]

It hasn't been that bad.

It hasn't been that good. :cmad:





















;)

And as far as protecting the identities of the characters under his charge...it certainly has been that bad--at least in my humble opinion. Then again, I've only been reading these characters for 20-plus years, so what the hell do I know? :confused:

[Anubis]

The only problem I had with Hudlin's BP was the first arc when he basically rebooted his origin and changed Klaw into, well it for damn sure aint Klaw anymore. Other than that, it's been pretty entertaining at best, and meh at worst. Enjoyed the House of M tie in. Really dug the arc where he hung out with Cage, the wedding was boring. (Though I did enjoy the batchlor party issue.) Didn't really give a s**t about the Doom flub, not that I think it really was a flub. I think Doom was just trying to push his buttons. Though I would have perfured if they were on good terms. They always seemed rather Civil with one another in the past. He did screw up, but like I said, I wasn't too broken up about it.

Current arc has been pretty good, though the art is crap.

[Lightning Strykez!]

The only problem I had with Hudlin's BP was the first arc when he basically rebooted his origin and changed Klaw into, well it for damn sure aint Klaw anymore. Other than that, it's been pretty entertaining at best, and meh at worst. Enjoyed the House of M tie in. Really dug the arc where he hung out with Cage, the wedding was boring. (Though I did enjoy the batchlor party issue.) Didn't really give a s**t about the Doom flub, not that I think it really was a flub. I think Doom was just trying to push his buttons. Though I would have perfured if they were on good terms. They always seemed rather Civil with one another in the past. He did screw up, but like I said, I wasn't too broken up about it.

Current arc has been pretty good, though the art is crap.

Okay, well I can appreciate your thoughts. I too enjoyed the House Of M title--and his total ownage of Sabertooth and Magneto...but that's when things started going south for me. What's your opinion of Storm's addition to the book?

[Anubis]

I'm cool with it. So far it's been handled margenally well I suppose. She's still pretty independent, and trying to come to terms with her new status as a world leader, and BP's still being BP. Or at least Hudlin's BP.

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm cool with it. So far it's been handled margenally well I suppose. She's still pretty independent, and trying to come to terms with her new status as a world leader, and BP's still being BP. Or at least Hudlin's BP.

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.


Meh...I have to dissagree bro. I don't even recognize Storm under this guy's care. And it's interesting because she's only gotten sappily out of character since she married T'Challa. When he was gunning for her affection she still managed to come across as a Goddess-like leader. But as soon as she agreed to court him, she transformed into silly putty. Now, she's his Tonto...totally in the background, underused and underwhelmed so as to play up his significance. Her eyes don't even go white when she calls on her powers. LOL :rolleyes:

From what I've read, Hudlin doesn't seem to be interested in developing T'Challa and Ororo as a power couple a la Susan & Reed or Jean & Scott--where folks are equals. He's more concerned with manipping all of her statements and actions to display how dominant T'Challa is. I know it's his book but Hudlin truly doesn't get what a powerful character Storm can be. He's underusing her bigtime and as a result, Storm has become a shell...no substance at all...just this giggly, lovestruck naivete--hardly the champion who led the X-Men for decades.

And don't even get me started on the continuity issues... ;)

[Anubis]

Are we reading the same book? Because I haven't seen anything like that happen. Storm hasn't been in any way shape or form his "Tonto". Of course, i've never been all that huge of a Storm fan, so I guess the people who follow her more would have a better vantage point. Or maybe that's the problem. You're trying to apply her role as a leader of the X-Men to what she's doing now, which is really on a much grander scale. Has she ever really been in a position like she is now? Being a world leader? This isn't the X-Men, this is a major world power. The way I figure, she's gonna need time to adjust to this new role. And so far, they've been showing it. Just look at her recent tiff with Stark, and now making the decision of possibly registering. This not only goes against what BP wants, but her fellow X-Men as well. She's making decisions for the good of her people now. (or adopted people or whatever.)

As far as her eyes not going white, that's just the artists interpritation. Unless i've missed some sorta memo where they say she can't have her eyes go white all of a sudden. Seems kinda petty to me.

[Inhuman63]

This has really piqued my interest to the point that I will have to pick up a BP issue to see what is going on. The Black Panther, to me, was such an exciting character, especially since he was the first African character to grace the pages of the FF and most regally at that. He was finally a character that looked like me and that really meant something. Now to read all the things that is going on with the character, it has left me a little distressed. And to top it off, to hear about Doom being made out to be racist. That is a joke in itself, so out of character for the man. And to read that Storm's character is being wasted also...such a shame. Don't know who this guy is that is writing BP but if he has anything to do with BET then I can see how he goes for the lowest common denominator. Personally, I have not looked at the main BET channel in years, and if I do check out any of the affiliates, it usually is BETJ.

BTW, as far the other convo is concerned, living in NY and doing some theatre I still don't know that many limp wrist gay's. Most of the people that I know are just your average people who happen to prefer the same sex.

Back on topic though, once I pick up an issue of BP, I will hopefully be able to participate in this conversation. Such thought provoking stuff.

[Anubis]

With BP and Storm possibly taking over for Sue and Reed in Fantastic Four, you may be able to get a better interpritation of the couple from a more compitent writer in McDuffie.

[HandOfFate]

The thing is, sure, it could be better, and if they replaced Hudlin, I wouldn't cry about it. But it really hasn't been as bad as some people have made it out to be. It's been avarage for the most part. Good enough for me not to drop the book at least.

I agree, it's not great but its good enough to keep me coming back for more ever month.

I've been reading the X-Men for almost 20 years now and I really don't see this big change in Storm that some complain about. While I agree that Hudlin doesn't fully understand her, I think if we give him time, he'll make some great improvements.:cwink:

Now if somebody could find a decent artist for the book.:csad:

[Lightning Strykez!]

Are we reading the same book? Because I haven't seen anything like that happen. Storm hasn't been in any way shape or form his "Tonto".

Oh? You believe she's being portrayed as his equal? Sorry, but I'm not. I'm seeing this:

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DSN/DSN008/1775943.jpg

"Big Pharoah & His Knee-High Queen." :whatever:

Storm's character has been watered down...diminished. It's not just that she's taken a back seat to him. She's just so damn sappy around him. Even when she was romantically involved with Forge she was never this...well, weak. I mean, it is good to see a vulnerable side of her...but I don't believe the compromise has been equally shown in T'Challa. Do you?

One of my biggest issues surrounds their microwaved marriage. No time was spent developing their relationship. Just a retcon. Even you admitted that the whole process was boring. And I agree...it was empty because there was no history behind it, no substance. Considering how popular Storm is, it could've been HUGE...had the concept been given some time to incubate longer.

Perhaps if we had been given a year to see this bond between them grow I could more readily believe her newfound "freeness" around him. But to go from 30 years of her being so stoic and emotionally guarded to this euphoric "School-girl"-like behavior in all of like 2 issues...it just felt wrong.

For example: she's been chastised often by him for getting "out of line". Now, that in itself is not my biggest gripe--I expect T'Challa's arrogance to move him that direction (that's what makes him great), but it's her "doting" "What's wrong Beloved?" reactions that are sooooooooo out of character. Storm is not one that needs to be told that "conflicts cannot be resolved with a kiss"--she knows that. She's extremely intelligent--especially when it comes to tech. Yet, she asks him the most dumbass of questions about things like jets, etc. Why? To play up T'Challa's character.

It's not balanced to me, Anubis.



Of course, i've never been all that huge of a Storm fan, so I guess the people who follow her more would have a better vantage point.

Actually, I've been collecting BP since Priest had the run. And the X-Men? Well, since 1981. So I knew both characters rather thoroughly before this marriage. And the things they do and say now are just off-target ("You've got me straight trippin' boo?" When did the King Of Wakanda get hood!? :csad: ) I agree with you: Storm is a unique role now--and I appreciate the concept. But I disagree that it's being actioned off well.



As far as her eyes not going white, that's just the artists interpritation. Unless i've missed some sorta memo where they say she can't have her eyes go white all of a sudden. Seems kinda petty to me.

Storm's eyes have been that way since she was created man. It's her iconic trademark. So now she's married and they've stopped working? :confused: If you're going to win new readers over, why not keep the things they know consistent?

Rumor: I read somewhere here (or it might have been Newsrama) that he told artists to stop drawing her that way because it makes her seem too powerful and godly--a level that a human like T'Challa can't attain. Not sure how true that is because if I recall, her eyes did whiten during mutant manifestations early on in Hudlin's run. I agree it's a minor detail, but it's a part of her characterization...and if it's been taken out to downplay her "power", then I think it's wrong.

[Lightning Strykez!]

This has really piqued my interest to the point that I will have to pick up a BP issue to see what is going on. The Black Panther, to me, was such an exciting character, especially since he was the first African character to grace the pages of the FF and most regally at that. He was finally a character that looked like me and that really meant something. Now to read all the things that is going on with the character, it has left me a little distressed. And to top it off, to hear about Doom being made out to be racist. That is a joke in itself, so out of character for the man. And to read that Storm's character is being wasted also...such a shame. Don't know who this guy is that is writing BP but if he has anything to do with BET then I can see how he goes for the lowest common denominator. Personally, I have not looked at the main BET channel in years, and if I do check out any of the affiliates, it usually is BETJ.


Well, don't let my "review" overly influence you. You may very well love it. ;) I've been following this since its inception. And to be fair, I will admit that his stuff has gotten slightly better in recent issues. But for me, 80% of it has been very flawed work. And it started out great...that's why I (and many others) have been so put off with it.

Also, if Hudlin wasn't so arrogant I'd be a bit more forgiving. As HandOfFate mentioned, it's only fair that we give him a chance. But from the venom I've read from him directed at readers, he doesn't give a damn what they think. :o This is a one-man show as far as he's concerned--the fanbase be damned. And a lot of people--especially X-Men fans--have been burned by his indifference. We care about these characters...he does not. For him, it's just another commercial venture...and his comments reflect that.


BTW, as far the other convo is concerned, living in NY and doing some theatre I still don't know that many limp wrist gay's. Most of the people that I know are just your average people who happen to prefer the same sex.


Same here.

[Lightning Strykez!]

While I agree that Hudlin doesn't fully understand her, I think if we give him time, he'll make some great improvements.:cwink:

To be honest with you? I don't think Reggie wants to understand her. If he did, he'd be a helluva lot more receptive to the fans concerns. I mean, seriously man, soooooo many fans have written in trying to help him understand. I'm continuously shocked by his haughty, condescending replies though...which ultimately I think has pissed them off.

You can't see where you're going if you don't know where you (or your characters) have been. :o



Now if somebody could find a decent artist for the book.:csad:

Agreed. Wassup with that? The art was fine all the way through the earlier arcs and the wedding. But now? Blech.

[Anubis]

Oh? You believe she's being portrayed as his equal? Sorry, but I'm not. I'm seeing this:

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DSN/DSN008/1775943.jpg

"Big Pharoah & His Knee-High Queen." :whatever:

Storm's character has been watered down...diminished. It's not just that she's taken a back seat to him. She's just so damn sappy around him. Even when she was romantically involved with Forge she was never this...well, weak. I mean, it is good to see a vulnerable side of her...but I don't believe the compromise has been equally shown in T'Challa. Do you?


One of my biggest issues surrounds their microwaved marriage. No time was spent developing their relationship. Just a retcon. Even you admitted that the whole process was boring. And I agree...it was empty because there was no history behind it, no substance. Considering how popular Storm is, it could've been HUGE...had the concept been given some time to incubate longer.

Perhaps if we had been given a year to see this bond between them grow I could more readily believe her newfound "freeness" around him. But to go from 30 years of her being so stoic and emotionally guarded to this euphoric "School-girl"-like behavior in all of like 2 issues...it just felt wrong.

For example: she's been chastised often by him for getting "out of line". Now, that in itself is not my biggest gripe--I expect T'Challa's arrogance to move him that direction (that's what makes him great), but it's her "doting" "What's wrong Beloved?" reactions that are sooooooooo out of character. Storm is not one that needs to be told that "conflicts cannot be resolved with a kiss"--she knows that. She's extremely intelligent--especially when it comes to tech. Yet, she asks him the most dumbass of questions about things like jets, etc. Why? To play up T'Challa's character.

It's not balanced to me, Anubis.

Sure she's intelligent, but I mean, think about her position here. She's never really been in this kinda role before. we're talking about having to play international peace maker, for a nation that isn't even her own. I chalk it up to simply taking time to learn her place in the monarcy. Aparently she weilds more power than she relizes. At the momment, she's just gonna have to defur to the guy that's been running s**t for the last fifteen years. At least for now. That could change, and it will by all indications of upcoming events.



Actually, I've been collecting BP since Priest had the run. And the X-Men? Well, since 1981. So I knew both characters rather thoroughly before this marriage. And the things they do and say now are just off-target ("You've got me straight trippin' boo?" When did the King Of Wakanda get hood!? :csad: ) I agree with you: Storm is a unique role now--and I appreciate the concept. But I disagree that it's being actioned off well.

I'm willing to let it slide because it was an alternate universe version of the character.



Storm's eyes have been that way since she was created man. It's her iconic trademark. So now she's married and they've stopped working? :confused: If you're going to win new readers over, why not keep the things they know consistent?

Rumor: I read somewhere here (or it might have been Newsrama) that he told artists to stop drawing her that way because it makes her seem too powerful and godly--a level that a human like T'Challa can't attain. Not sure how true that is because if I recall, her eyes did whiten during mutant manifestations early on in Hudlin's run. I agree it's a minor detail, but it's a part of her characterization...and if it's been taken out to downplay her "power", then I think it's wrong.



Still seems petty to me. And come on, it's an internet rumor. I've also heard a rumor that that guy in that R. Kelly kiddie porn video was really Al Sharpton in disguise. Doesn't make it true.

[highguard]

To be honest with you? I don't think Reggie wants to understand her. If he did, he'd be a helluva lot more receptive to the fans concerns. I mean, seriously man, soooooo many fans have written in trying to help him understand. I'm continuously shocked by his haughty, condescending replies though...which ultimately I think has pissed them off.

You can't see where you're going if you don't know where you (or your characters) have been. :o




Agreed. Wassup with that? The art was fine all the way through the earlier arcs and the wedding. But now? Blech.

Well if Hudlin is that way with the fans maybe he is that way with the hired help. I thought Romita jr ended his run kind of quickly, .. I dunno.

Also he may be having a hard time attracting top talent to the book if he is not going to be collaborative.

It is sad to hear that he has chosen to cast BP as hood, I think that works for Luke Cage cause the hood is part of our society but it is a stereotype that does not apply to all black people, and a lot of the elements of hood life are not to be glamorized but overcome.

The culture of BET is attractive to a lot of people, black and white because they think it is reality and exciting, the thug life.

There is a lot of fear out there among Black Men and Women that they are percieved as being ashamed of their roots and as a result they feel pressured to "keep it real".

Who can forget the charge against Alan Iverson when he tried to release his rap album.

Someone said what does a millionaire B baller know about kicking it in the streets. So a lot of rappers love to show their bullet wounds and prison records.

The truth is that all the lables and studios feel that this is what the public wants. It's a change of pace from the dreariness of our lives they think. Seeing how it is to live on the streets while bullets fly by.

Its as close as to being in a real life Miami Vice as we can be they reason, so the music, the drugs, the guns, the girls this is what they push cause they think that it is what we want.

The truth is sales will dictate whether that is what continues to be pushed.

Its the law of demand and supply.

As 50 cent said I am going to get rich or die trying.

As long as that is all it's about, "getting paid" and the peddlers get paid that is what we are going to get.

But BP saying your tripping boo hahahahhahhahahah.

Maybe BP is trying to be real too, lol, man the editors clearly don't care anymore, it is never ending.

I am telling you the culture at Marvel has clearly shifted tremendously towards peddling the lowest common denominator.

Its MTV/BET in the "House....... of Ideas"

[deemar325]

Bump.

[spideyboy_1111]

Actually, no. No I don't. Now, if they had made a character named "Dick Gayson" or "Ursa Major" gay...then yeah, I could see it. But Rawhide Kid? Meh. I think Rawhide Kid is a wack name--gay or Str8 actually. :oldrazz:

i dont see how ursa major sounds gay... Dick Gayson would be about as forward as you could get next to "Uranus man" but raw hide def sounds like he loves to bare back, i don't think one gay guy would even not consider that a gay sounding name



Really? That's interesting because as a bodybuilder in New York I know/have met a lot of men in the life--especially at the gym where I train. And you know what? The most cut-up, masculine cats that frequent our joint are gay.

The same can be said for many of the Pro-bodybuilders in the IFBB circuit. Seeeeriously, some of the biggest, "straight-acting" cats (you know--the ones that have the blonde bimbo babes draping themselves all over them on the Flex Magazine covers :whatever: ) are tricking for men of every shape, age and profession. No limp wrists, lisps, or finger-snapping there...they're totally manned-up. Yet, later you find out through the grape vine that they get down on the low...and off the "gaydar". The difference? They're discreet with it and choose to conduct themselves as men first and foremost--at all times.

Ironically, the media doesn't play that version of gay male life up...at all. I guess it's not sensational enough. Now, don't get me wrong--I do see plenty of these....

http://images.zap2it.com/20050304/inlivingcolor_240_001.jpg


...skipping around the burroughs too. But over the years, I've learned that it's the cats dipped in thuggery--the ones holding up the walls nodding their heads saying "sup"--that are the real "queens"...not necessarily the "fembots."
agrees, great post! thank you

[spideyboy_1111]

i'd say storm was watered down at first... but i think thats simply because she hasn't been fitting in well with her new status quo and shes just trying to adjust.. i can yell you though i've notices a huge difference since civil war has started... she does what she wants more often now... and shes back to kicking some ass.. and independance... i think whats hardest for us to vision is the fact that storm is now married... and with marriage, like it or not.. you cant be 100% independant... and i think when we see any sign of dependancy on her its hard to understand. But again, over all.. i think her portrayal during civil war has been on par...