Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[Lightning Strykez!]

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"Black Knights"
A Focus On Marvel's Mutants Of Colour
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An Essay By:
Caliph a.k.a. "Lightning Strikez!"
August 29th, 2005

As we get press forward into the 21st Century, it is interesting to note the many changes that are happening in Hollywood. Break-throughs are slowly, but surely being accomplished. Opportunities are being awarded that 20 years ago were considered taboo. And with A-listers like Denzel Washington, Jamie Foxx and Halle Berry finally getting recognition with prestigous awards perhaps greater things are to come.

Considering that the hottest cinematic genre at the moment is the comic book film industry, it could be only a matter of time before Hollywood turns its attention to black comic characters. To say that Black audiences are not major comic readers would be sheer naivety, and yet, several of Marvel's black characters appeal to audiences comprised of all colors and backgrounds.

Is A Storm Really Coming?

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For example, consider The Weather Goddess AKA Storm. She is arguably Marvel's most iconic and well-loved black heroine. Yet, according to the general consensus, the character has not been given the same kind of focus and development as her counterparts.

Many feel that a lack of respect has been shown towards Marvel's premier black heroine: from bad wigs, bad lines, bad directing...and perhaps even miscasting, the Halle Berry/Storm fiasco is the only X-Men related hot-button that continues to garner controversial attention from critics and fanboys alike. In both X-Men films, the vast majority of the character development was chopped and left on the cutting room floor--even a reported African origin scene was dropped. Aware of what Storm means to people worldwide, Halle Berry (the actress who plays the role) has fought for improvements, but she has consistently been slammed with criticism for speaking out.

Does such poor treatment bode well for future cinematic treatment of other mutants of colour? It's not like we have a lot to pick from you know. :rolleyes: Is this how it's going to be? Already, there have been rumblings about possible film developments, but currently they remain in development hell while millions of dollars are spent on other B and C-list comic characters (i.e. Elektra and Swamp Thing).

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What Does The Future Hold?

Storm. Cecilia Reyes. Luke Cage. Bishop. Black Panther. All are mutated and/or specially powered heroes that offer compelling stories--each of which could easily sustain a strong film and audience. Will Hollywood take a step backward by ignoring these rich stories in favor of characters that garner little interest? A glimmer of hope was shown with the Blade series, but considering its subject matter and rating, only limited audiences could benefit from that. Could something more mainstream be created? Do you believe that they may be afraid to "go there" with developing a true, full blown urban superhero story?

In this thread, let us discuss what the future may hold for Marvel's mutants of color.


Some Topics For Discussion


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*The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film?

*What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions?

*The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?

*Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood?

*Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars?

*What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises?


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A NOTE TO MY FELLOW HYPESTERS: This is meant to be a sophisticated, cerebral discussion--a place where people of like mind can discuss these kinds of issues freely. Keep in mind that this thread is not exclusive per se, and that all Hypesters have a right to speak on these matters.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Original debuted in X3: Spoilers (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193055)

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The ROLO Factor
Marvel's 1st Silver-Screen Interracial Romance?
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An Essay By Dark Lightning AKA Lightning Strikez!


Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men in the early 1960s, when the African-American civil rights movement was prominent in the news. Interestingly enough, both Stan and Jack are Jewish-Americans; consciously or unconsciously, perhaps they were really aiming at anti-Semitism. Decades later, it was Chris Claremont who established that Magneto, as a child, had been imprisoned at the Auschwitz Nazi Concentration Camps.

The point?

From the very beginning, Marvel Comics, and more specifically the X-Men, have continued to explore the differences between peoples and cultures, and to break down those barriers. In fact, it is a well-known fact that the antagonism spewed towards mutants in the X-Men comics is actually a metaphor for racism.

So perhaps it is apropros that X-Men 3 will push the envelope further with the ROLO Factor. For those of you who are not acquainted with the terminology, ROLO stands for the romantic relationship between Ororo Munroe (Storm) and Logan (Wolverine). Some have already labeled this aspect of X3's plot as another "controversial Thom Rothman antic" but if people actually did their homework,they'd find that the two characters have been involved for years in the comic book cannon. Even now, in both the Ultimate and Uncanny X-Men series the two characters are once again fooling around.

However, I sense that FOX putting these two together in this film is about more than just being controversial. And it's probably bigger than the source material too. I think they are doing it for cinematic purposes. If fleshed out well, this relationship could really bring something special to X3 for several reasons.

Let's discuss some of them:

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1.) Closure For Logan: Let's face it, at some point the feral Wolverine would have to move on with his life in the wake of Jean Grey's death. The most logical choice would be the team's beautiful second-in-command. But since X3 will revolve around Dark Phoenix, the ROLO factor coooould also pose some interesting struggles within Logan once the fire goddess arises from Alkali Lake. Much will hinge on if Jean will simply return as herself with increased abilities, or as a maniac driven by lunacy and a thirst for power.

2.) Better Utilization Of Halle Berry: For both Hugh Jackman and Halle Berry the ROLO factor could bring another dimension to their characters. In my opinion, Halle will benefit the most. After standing in as the SFX coordinator for the last two films :rolleyes:, it will be good to finally see Storm being a WOMAN with an emotional attachment to someone.

And despite the vitriol some fanboys spit at the actress, many will agree that her heaviest gravitas lie in her dramatic portrayals. As demonstrated in Monster's Ball, Queen, The Dorothy Dandridge Story and her recent Their Eyes Were Watching God, Halle seems to excel best when in her own comfort zone--drama. While her turn in action films i.e. 007 and Catwoman have been met with mixed results, if Brett Ratner and his writers can give her some real meat on the character development end, she should shine here.

3.) A New Dimension For Hugh Jackman: The ROLO Factor will also give Hugh a nice departure from the slice-em-dice-em deal he's been stuck with so far in this saga. Hugh does well with romantic comedy as shown in his hit films Kate & Leopold and Someone Like You. But so far, his action films like Van Helsing and the X-Men series haven't really given him a chance to fully integrate the romantic element. We actually got a brief glimpse of the sexual side of Logan in X2 (with Jean and Mystique), but it will be interesting to see this side of the character really fleshed out this time around.

4.)Chemistry: The ROLO factor might bring a great opportunity for the actors involved--but not only on an individualized level. As a pair, Halle and Hugh seem to have an electric chemistry on screen, as shown in Swordfish. Chemistry between the actors is key, especially in this genre where films generally focus on SFX and action.

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Chemistry lacks to a large extent between Famke and James Marsden, and while it sizzles between Rebecca Romijn and Hugh--it's also very restricted. We can't have a repeat performance here with Storm and Logan. Halle and Hugh are arguably this film's biggest stars so if it's done right it's sure to raise the bar on comic book movies' love stories.

5.)Comicdom's 1st Silver-Screen Interracial Love Story: As noted above, we've enjoyed watching the love stories develop between Peter and Mary Jane, Reed and Susan, Bobby and Rogue and Scott and Jean--but we've never seen a high profile interracial love story in any comic book film (unless you count whatever Vivica A. Fox had going on with Mr. Freeze in 1997's deplorable Batman & Robin. *rolls eyes and lifts fist in wretched motions* Having Marvel's first black heroine involved with its ultimate Bad-Ass will be a treat, and the plot will also keep in line with X-Men's legacy: Breaking down cultural, sexual and racial barriers.

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To my fellow Hypesters: What do you think of the ROLO factor? Will it hurt or help X3? Will Logan's passion for Jean resurface? Will Storm's relationship with Logan be purely a sexual one, or will it have some depth as it does in the comics?

[Chris Wallace]

Storm is my absolute favorite character to wear an X. And while I agree she has not been given justice in the movies, I don't think this is an issue of her color so much as a popularity matter. She doesn't have the level of clout that Wolverine has, so they're not gonna focus on her as much. A solo movie wouldn't improve matters, IMO. I don't think they should flood the market with X-Men solo projects.

[Rizpower]

I absolutely agree, Chris. I think they're overdoing it with Magneto as is. Wolverine I only support to give more balance to the franchise.

Cyclops is totally ignored in the X-Films, and yuppies aren't complaining about the clearly pro-Canadian stance of the filmmakers, it's just the way it is.

I've been anti-Halle from day one. She just doesn't have the personality to play Storm on film, nor do I think the character is ever going to be properly adapted in the X-Universe as created by Bryan Singer. It's a damn shame, but I'd rather we stick to the mythology he made (And a shoddy job he did) rather than risk a Schumacher style jump in style.

[Chris Wallace]

I wouldn't go as far as to say he did a shoddy job overall. But again, I don't wanna make this a race issue. When I see all the threads/posts that turn everything into a black issue-"Blade didn't have the Marvel logo/appear in the fighting games/have a trading card/ have this & that b/c he's BLACK!" Not b/c he's a foul-mouthed, drug dependent murderer, but b/c he's black. This is dangerous territory, to even bring this up. At some point it gets silly.

[Rizpower]

Indeed. The reason no one but Wolverine gets screen time is because Wolverine is ****in' WOLVERINE. He's the biggest draw in the MU this side of Spider-Man. Every other X-Man takes a back seat.

I really REALLY fear what Luke Cage is going to end up being like. It has so much potential, but I feel it's entirely likely it will end up being blaxploitation at it's worst

[Slim_X]

My all time favorite female comic book character is Storm, I've always like how strong she was when I watched the TAS as a kid. I think it's such a shame they made a crappy job with her in the first X-Men movie, though I have to say she had one of the most memorable scenes in the movie. They improved her in X2, but overall we don't know much about her. I just wanna hear they mention her African roots and even her claustrophobia, I also wanna know why she's so angry at humans.
I hope X3 does Storm some justice since (I think) she's the most popular X-Woman.

Next month you can see her in two videogames:
-Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects: I think she's the only X-Woman in this game and she looks so cool :D.
-X-Men Legends 2: Rise of Apocalypse: She's been a confirmed playable character since day 1, with over 10 powers (including lightnings, winds and blizzards) I think she'll be one of the strongest characters in the game. I can't wait for this one :D. Plus she'll have a lot of unlockable costumes. Bishop, another black mutant, will also be in this game.

[The Sage]

Storm is my absolute favorite character to wear an X. And while I agree she has not been given justice in the movies, I don't think this is an issue of her color so much as a popularity matter. She doesn't have the level of clout that Wolverine has, so they're not gonna focus on her as much. A solo movie wouldn't improve matters, IMO. I don't think they should flood the market with X-Men solo projects.

I agree. The market is already flooded as it is. Plus after CINO I doubt the public will be all too keen to see a solo superhero movie with Halle in the lead.

I'd love to see Black Panther get adapted. Rumors were flying for a while about it, with Wesley Snipes as the lead, though now I prefer someone else since he's Blade.

[Rizpower]

I really, really want Djimon Hounsou for Black Panther. He really doesn't get enough parts in Hollywood for such a talented actor.

[JP]

Halle was definitely miscast for Storm, but that wasn't the reason for her poor portrayal of Storm in the movies. IMO, Storm should have never been in X-Men. Instead, she should have been introduced in a later film, were she would most likely have been given what her character deserves. One thing I like about Singers films is that he doesn’t just add a character to the movie because they are popular (Like Gambit), but because they fit the story. And that was the problem with Storm. She did not fit the story.

Storm is finally getting a better role in the third installment, but I’m not sure she will be the Storm we know from the comics. Most likely she will have a few characteristics changed, like Rogue and Bobby.

[The Sage]

I really, really want Djimon Hounsou for Black Panther. He really doesn't get enough parts in Hollywood for such a talented actor.

Great choice. He was excellent in Amistad.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Storm is my absolute favorite character to wear an X. And while I agree she has not been given justice in the movies, I don't think this is an issue of her color so much as a popularity matter. She doesn't have the level of clout that Wolverine has, so they're not gonna focus on her as much. A solo movie wouldn't improve matters, IMO. I don't think they should flood the market with X-Men solo projects.


I dunno Chris.

Storm is arguably the most-well known and identifiable X-Woman. I think her fanbase is actually as large or close to Wolverine's. I mean, when you look at various message boards and polls Storm comes out easily in the Top 3 consistently behind Wolverine and perhaps Gambit.

So I believe that if done well, a Storm spin-off film could really be something special. Think about it: These young girls of colour don't really have a black heroine to identify with. They've got Wonder Woman, Invisible Woman but no true kick-ass black female heroine.

The problem is that Hollywood doesn't know how to handle/write a screen play for strong female black character, with powers that are god-like. I think they are skurred. And they (Hollywood) are not capitalizing on Storm's fame--especially the distinction of being Marvel's First Lady of Colour. The fact that they've got an Oscar Winner being wasted in the role is further cause of concern.

Then folks want to talk about bring Bishop on board? :rolleyes: I say, hell no--fix what we've got now.

[OutcryX]

Storm IS the most popular X-Man behind Wolverine if not right there with him. She deserves to have her character respected on film and not sidelined just b/c the director doesn't like her. Storm deserved to be in the first, second and now third X-Men movie. Why should she have to wait until the story 'fits' her? If these movies were made properly from the get go and focused on the X-Men as a team then Storm could have easily been developed....along with Cyclops and Jean Grey as well, but alas they werent. Thankful they were made, b/c we would have X3 to look forward to.

[JP]

Cyclops and Jean were well developed. Storm did not fit the story, and she shouldn't have been included. Beast was cut from X1 because of budget issues. Well, I've read the script that included him, and frankly that wasn't Beast. He was a doctor at the institute, and that was it. Well, thanks to him not being included in the first movie he is now in the third, and with the casting of Grammar, I'm sure Beast will be alot closer to his comic self then what was originally planned.

And the same should have been held for Storm.

[OutcryX]

Cyclops and Jean were well developed. Storm did not fit the story, and she shouldn't have been included. Beast was cut from X1 because of budget issues. Well, I've read the script that included him, and frankly that wasn't Beast. He was a doctor at the institute, and that was it. Well, thanks to him not being included in the first movie he is now in the third, and with the casting of Grammar, I'm sure Beast will be alot closer to his comic self then what was originally planned.

And the same should have been held for Storm.

You r absolutley correct. I just like Cyclops and personally feel he should have done...i dunno..more. But Storm's character was little more than 4th mutant on the right.....Halla also wasn't the star she later became...she was know...but she wasnt HUGE

[the a1ant]

For being such an iconic and recognizeable character, Storm was given a horrible role. I blame some of this on Bryan Singer. He has openly admitted that he didn't know what to do with Storm, and that her place in the films, was with the kids. Anyone who actually would sit and read the comics, would know that Storm is more than someone who takes cares of the kids.

I remember Lauren Shuller Donner first mentioned the idea of a Storm film. Now...was Halle miscast? Maybe yes, maybe no. I can picture Halle as being Storm, if she would get the chance to actually BE Storm. Sure...she's not tall, etc, but she can pull off the fury, the essence of Storm. Catwoman was NOT a good film at all, but she showed she could be powerful and feirce (I think I spelled that wrong) :p

[Sardan]

Hmm...adding the Logan/Storm romance aspect to the movies..well, it could help or it could hurt depending on how they would do it. It the comics, yeah they've had kinda a flirtatious relationship, but it's never struck me as going beyond very close friends. In the comics you obviously have more time for character development and relationship development which is what's made Storm and Wolverine's friendship so perfect and touching in the comics. I think each time they've kissed it's given a lot of fans that chance to go "what if...." and then they went back to just being friends.

For the movie though.
Pro-possibilities: Through the course of the movie, Storm to learn to relax more and act instead of react all the time. This would bring her closer to Wolverine's characteristic and he could step in to help her not get out of control giving them a connection that is to this point lacking.
Since we never really saw much of a reaction from Storm to Jean sacrificing herself to save the others (yeah, I know, we didn't see much reaction from Storm for anything..), she could step in and provide Logan a shoulder to cry on and someone to confide in.

Con-possibilities: Given that it's a movie we could open up the film and have them already together and be expected to just be ok with it having happened "before this film started."

Actually though, from the conversations in X2, I'd more expect to see a romance between Storm and Nightcrawler develop. Remember how fascinated she was with his scars? And she was willing to trust his blind teleporting....and then he stayed with her in the rebuild Cerebro after being warned it was going to get cold...

For Halle as Storm. I've never really felt she was properly cast. Sure she brings big name recognition to the movie, but she just doesn't have the presence that Storm is supposed to convey. THe larger than life, you could worship me as a goddess, presence. From her face, with the right makeup, yeah, she could look like some of the artists renditions of Storm, but the wigs...they're bad... and while I've said other places that she's being kinda childish about complaining about Storm being underdeveloped (yes, Storm is under developed and underused in the movies), I can appreciate that as long as additional development and screen time were to be given over to all the characters.

I don't see the missing Storm pieces as being due to skin color as much as I suspect to the director/writer/movie crew not having any real idea how to properly utilize her. How do you bring in her background? And if you don't do it the same, how much complaining will there be? The backgrounds of Cyclops and Jean were left out as well, much I suspect for the same reason. Time constraints, and that wasn't really the focus of the movie. The backgrounds we did get each served a purpose for furthering the story. Rogues introduced not only the character who was central to the movie, but also gave the first indication of a dangerous mutant. We got parts of Xavier and Magneto's in order to reveal why they know each other so well and why they're opposing each other. Wolverine's parts that we got served to only make you wonder more about the parts that were missing and to keep you wondering why Magneto would want him.

My one great hope for the future use of Storm in the X movies is that we lose the speeches. That comes so much from the animated series of the 90s and just doesn't translate well to the big screen.

Storm solo movie. If its timed right, I think it could be a moderately successful film. It'll take some pushing from Marvel to get advertising out there to the casual movie goer to go see it though. Most of the other titles, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Hulk. Those are characters who've been out there forever, have had their own comics for a long time and generally are seen as stand alones, and each really ties into family. Blade, he's never really been a main hero, and so his movies weren't marketed as Marvel Comics Blade. Instead the blade movies were marketed as vampire movies. Elektra...I really think Elektra was a mistake. THe movie ignored everything about the character from Daredevil really and failed to introduce properly the one recognizable villian. Storm unfortunatly could fall into that same category. She's got a large fan base, sure, but they're the X-Men fans for the most part I'd wager. Fans from the comics are going to expect something tied to the comics, while fans from the movies are going to expect Storm to be like in the movies (which would be a boring movie) and if Storm were to overshadow her own character in the X movies...well, then that causes another problem. Wolverine...I suspect he's got enough cross market recognition for Marvel to pull off a solo movie, any of the other X-Men....probably not.

[MJB]

Indeed. The reason no one but Wolverine gets screen time is because Wolverine is ****in' WOLVERINE. He's the biggest draw in the MU this side of Spider-Man. Every other X-Man takes a back seat.

I really REALLY fear what Luke Cage is going to end up being like. It has so much potential, but I feel it's entirely likely it will end up being blaxploitation at it's worst


Your fear is justfied with Singleton at the helm.

[Hunter Rider]

One thing i do agree with is the reason that Wolverine was thrust to the front
He is Marvel's second biggest Icon and also even in this day and age ppl like a "hero figure" in the lead of a film,and Jackman with his presence and look fitted that perfectly

Now this film coming up is hugely important for the character of Storm,it appears she is gonna have a lot more focus put on the godess part of her character with the battle with Pheonix plus of course the inpending relationship with Logan

The other 2 major Black characters that are up for adapting are both gonna show what hollywood thinks of Black superheroes and actors and their drawing power.Luke Cage i have a feeling will be made into some tacky "hip hop" movie geared more towards selling the latest Ja Rule single and subsequent merchandise than telling a good story
Black Panther should be epic and there is no other way to do him properly and the onscreen treatment he gets both in casting/directing and budget choices will say a lot about how hollywood views black heroes/actors as draws

[Hunter Rider]

To address the point Lightning put forward:

*The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film?

I think it's more a case of Fox trying to bleed all they can out of the X brand,

*What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions ?

studio execs and them having the balls to put all they have into a production built around a black actor,i really don't think ppl's will be put off by a black lead,but unless the studio has the guts to go all out on one we will never know

*The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?

The door will really be opened when it's a Black man white woman IMO


*Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood?

Snipes not really,Halle has been unfairly blamed for Storm IMO

*Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars?

In the case of superheroes yes but not so much as actors IMO



*What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises?


I think a lot will depend on what happens with Storm in X3 and how Black Panther is handled,they are so important to the black superhero community that if they are mis-handled then the future for heroes of colour onscreen is bleak IMO

[Hunter Rider]

Another interesting situation in Hollywood recently was Universal stopping production of Tru Blue,a film by Antoine Fuqua starring Denzel and Benicio Del Torro.the film was apparently "to expensive" given the dark subject matter (A Harlem drug kingpin smuggling drugs into the country in the coffins of vietnam soldiers),they figured they wouldn't make their money back,However right now martin Scorscese is making The Dpearted with Leo Dicaprio and Matt Damon and it is a dark thriller that won't be a blockbuster and yet despite being over budget and over schedule already, the production continues unhampered by the studio

[Connor MacLeod]

Well...a lot to say here...

First, I don't think Halle/Storm was as short-changed as everyone thinks. Each movie had a display of her powers. She got plenty of screen time. But I have to balance that by saying that despite all that what wasn't present was Storm's strength and power. I don't think it's as bad as A1ant's statement, "fourth mutant on the right." But I think everyone's real problem is that the character isn't coming off charismatic, bold, or dynamic. Storm so far has been rather flat.
This may change in X3 and it may not. For all the complaining about Storm and Logan hooking up, at least they are giving her something to do, which could be seen as positive. Hopefully it isn't a cop out and there are some good ideas behind this potential plot development.
Is a Storm solo a good idea? For now at least the climate is wrong. CINO definitely put a blackeye on Halle as an action star. It's concerning that even if they made a great movie no one would see it because they already saw Halle in a "similar" role, and/or because that movie sucked.

As to Blade, right now he has to be the best black character to screen so far. I will give a nod to Al Simmons, aka Spawn, who many people forget. But Blade transcended race. Hell, Blade transcended comicbook. You didn't even need to know who he was, what he was about... blood, gore, vampires? People are gonna see that. Which is probably why they took so many risks and screwed up the third movie. After you establish a franchise and a heavy following on the labor of two spectacular movies, handing the job over to a rookie director with a hit/miss record as a writer isn't a very good idea. But the thing that made Trinity bad wasn't the movie itself. It was the fact it was overshadowed by two much better movies, and that it lacked the mood and tone of those two movies.
Will we see Blade again? We can hope. Wesley Snipes and Guillermo Del Toro want to make another and make it right to send the franchise off on the right note. But for now it seems our best hope is a Blade TV show. The Blade franchise will continue to make money for a long time. Merchandise is still popular. And having Wesley Snipes as the face on a multimillion dollar propety is not a bad thing. We have to hope that future minorities in Marvel films are treated with the same respect and care as Blade.

Connor Macleod
aka SonOfLogan

[KenK]

Say what you want about Halle, but Lightning hit the nail on the head; They just didn't know how to write Storm properly. For as little screentime as Cyclops has had, he's been a more developed character. He's had his moments of antagonism between Wolverine, however brief they may have been, exhibitions of his concern and love for Jean, especially in X2, despite being conspicuously absent for more than an hour of that film! We see his loyalty to Xavier, and all of that. But there's a lot of depth to Storm that's since gone untapped. They don't touch on her background, or her regal demeanor or her maternal quality, which is why I wish they had kept in a scene from the first film where Storm talks to Rogue after the history class and has to deal with Rogue's question about whether or not she can be cured of being a mutant. And Storm doesn't just stand around as she uses her powers, she gets down right theatrical with the s**t! She doesn't just call lightning from the sky, she can shoot it from her freakin' hands! The woman purports herself as a goddess, but shows none of those treats in the film. As for the accent, I think there could have been a compromise given one, on rare occassions have I heard black actors do incredibly convincing African accents(which is a bit of a shame), and two, Storm may have grown up in Kenya, but wasn't she born in New York, and lived there until she was at least four or five? I'd be more concerned with Storm just having a commanding, regal voice, regardless of the accent. That, if anything, would be something to fault Miss Berry. And even then, it's still the screenwriters' and the director's responsibility to try and pull that out of their actress. I've seen Halle do enough roles to know that she can find the qualities of her character if the filmmakers inform her of what's required. And one thing I've noticed in her demands to make Storm a more formidable character is that she seems to be staying informed about the kind of character Storm is in the comics. Everything she's demanded of the filmmakers to enhance Storm in the film are things us fans want Storm to be. So I don't know why so many try and re-interpret this as primadona behavior on her part. She wants the exact same things for Storm that fans want! How is that wrong?!

On the subject of ROLO, as Lightning has said, there's been presedence for a Storm/Wolverine romance in the comics for YEARS!! Long before the first X-Men film was even in development, there's always been playful fraternizations and whatnot between these characters. I even remember an episode of the Fox X-Men cartoon where Logan and Ororo were lovers in an alternate timeline. So for all the people who want to piss and moan about the filmmakers going in this direction, you can't say it's not faithful to the comics!


*The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film?

I don't see it happening. And not due solely because of race, but just for the fact that female action films in general are always a risky proposition. You can get lucky at least commercially with films like the first Tomb Raider and Charlie's Angels movies, but both sequels failed critically AND financially. Catwoman and Elektra were dismal failures right out the box. Warner Bros. is will to roll the dice with Wonder Woman because she's arguably THE MOST popular female superhero of all-time. Storm may be a popular character within the Marvel Universe, but Wonder Woman has firmly cemented herself within all of comicdom, and has previously gained notariety in live-action through the 70s Lynda Carter series. Storm is a much bigger gamble.

*What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions?

Basically the history of recent female-fronted action films as I stated above in the case of a Storm spin-off. Black Panther, the fear I have with a possible film is that they'll cut out a lot of what makes the character who he is. An example, M.A.N.T.I.S. For those who may not know, M.A.N.T.I.S. was a character developed by Sam Hamm and Sam Raimi for a made-for-tv movie. A black scientist is paralyzed during an inner city riot and develops technology to allow him to walk, and he subsequently uses this technology to fight crime. As far as the film is concerned, he's the sole creator of the technology, and is aided by two African(not african-american, AFRICAN) graduate students. Obviously, FOX, the television network, had enough faith to turn the film into a series, and what followed was the epitome of white-washing. Gone were the african assistants, replaced by a white british guy who seems to have had more to do with the development of the M.A.N.T.I.S. technology than the black scientist, Miles Hawkins. Another white character is included, a young bike messanger who discovers Hawkins' secret. No longer does he fight ordinary criminals in inner cities and donate money to urban youth centers, he fights superpowered frankenstein-like individuals and mad scientiests in upscale metropolises. I fear filmmakers will not properly include the technological aspects of Wakandan society, giving them the sole credit they deserve to have for their advancements. As for Luke Cage, I think they could either go the "hip-hop gangsta" route with him, which would parallel the 70s blacksploitation overtones of his character anyway, or they could completely reimagine him as they did with Blade.

*The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?

I don't think it's about opening or closing doors. From a studio standpoint, it's two of their hottest stars in the franchise and in Hollywood gettin' it on for gettin' it on's sake. Whether it opens or closes doors only time will tell.

*Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood?

Halle, yeah, because as I've said, all she's demanded of filmmakers is what fans have demanded for Storm since they were unsatisfied with her portrayl in the first film. Wesley is a victim of his own arrogance. He has a history of this behavior, and I've actually seen an interview he did when Singleton's Shaft film came out, and he denounced the script as terrible, when asked about his being considered for the role. He further went on to say the film would have been better financially if he had starred in it. Furthermore, there's the infamous open letter to the press about New Line's alleged mistreatment of him during the filming of Blade Trinity. I'll elaborate on this on the next question.

*Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars?

While Storm may not be the headliner, nor is she meant to be, clearly the character has been pushed a little to far onto the sidelines. Even Rogue and Bobby got more development than Storm in X2! Yeah, promotional materials featured Halle prominently along with Hugh Jackman, but once you get into the film, there's not that much done with her aside from piloting the Blackbird(and don't get me started on them neglecting to refer to the X-Men's jet as such!) and create a few tornados. There's no delving into her past or romantic hook-ups. She should be standing alongside the X-Men, not behind them. In the case of Blade Trinity, Snipes grievances weren't exactly unfounded. New Line and David Goyer seemed to make it pretty clear that they were looking to use Blade Trinity as a springboard for the Nightstalkers. To say nothing of the film's abundance of stuntcasting; Jessica Biel and Ryan Reynolds, despite impressive training for the film, were totally unexpected casting decisions given their previous roles in WB dramas and sitcoms, respecitively. The cast also included regulars from the films of Christopher Guest, Parker Posey and John Michael Higgins, not to mention Wrestling star HHH and comedian Patton Oswald. What resulted was more of a spoof of the Blade films than an actual Blade film. The actors who are known primarily for comedy are in the film to provide just that, thereby diminishing the seriousness of the main character. While I'm sure Wesley could have handled it better, I understand his frustration, as Blade had been a character he truly believed in and immersed himself in whenever he played him.

*What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises?

In the case of Blade, I have little hope of the upcoming series being all that great. Call me simple, but I don't think Spike TV will provide a Blade comparable to the movie Blade, as say HBO or Showtime could. You would think if the series was going to be on cable, they would opt for a network with a little more leeway than Spike TV. Blade was a film that pulled no punches when it came to violence and gore and vulgarity. Much of this will be lost on Spike TV. Furthermore, Wesley Snipes IS Blade. Too much of Snipes can be seen in Blade to accept anyone else in the role.

[terry78]

Point blank, Storm is supposed to be the second in command of the X-Men. That's what the comics have gotten across, that's what the animated '90's series has gotten across. And a couple instances she did show it, like the climax of X2, but she still has yet to give off that "regal" aura that I feel that she needs. As far as a thing between her and Logan, I know it's in the books, but it would seem a tad forced in the movie to me, as I don't want them falling for each other in like 20 min. screen time when they've felt nothing or barely talked in the first two. I do think some more African American superheroines are needed in general, not in X-Men, but in comic movies, period. They're out there, but just aren't used.

[Arach Knight]

1) I don't think this is an issue of race. I can agree that black people (among other minorities) are poorly misrepresented in both television and film. However, I don't feel that is the case with Storm. Her character has been poorly handled. The true pity in that, is the fact that Storm is such a powerful black character, that is being under utilized. The most depth we see coming from Storm in the films, is as a comforter. In the first film she comforted Senator Kelly in his death, and in the second film, it was Nightcrawler. That is a nice touch, but it leaves Storm as a shallow character compared to the other mutants who are more fleshed out or better characterized.

2) Interracial dating is a nice social achievement in this nation, but I see it is a mostly flat dynamic to explore. Storm is more than just the resident black chick. She is a strong female character. Constantly paralleling her to black issues may weaken the character more than strengthen her. I am all for her receiving a proper portrayal as a strong black woman, but I don't feel an interracial relationship is needed to perpetuate that. Love and relationships are what they are. Race is a superflous matter when love is involved. Nobody should be looking for some "factor" to play off of. If Ororo and James date, that is because that is the choice they reach as people. Not as a race....

3) People are continually disapproving of Halle Berry as Storm, but I honestly can't think of another choice, other than perhaps Kerry Washington. But unless you really know your black actresses, then the name will be lost on 90% of the public. I mean really...who else could look and act the role? Somebody too old like Angela Basset? Or perhaps somebody else obscure like Nia Long? I don't mind people dismissing Halle, but at least offer up some substitutions. Otherwise, it is just baseless ranting.

Ultimately, Storm is a deep character. She is one of the few times on film (even if a comic film) that a black woman or black character in general, can be displayed without the cliche of steroetype and and other well known ideologies. Storm doesn't have to wiggle her head and snap fingers. She doen't need to date a whie man. She doesn't need to be a spokes person for black america. As long as she is the strong and independent woman she has been portrayed as in the comic books, she will speak the loudest in her actions...

[Connor MacLeod]

When speaking of the future of black characters in superhero movies, I am definitely nervous. Let's discuss a few of them...

Black Panther: What concerns me most here is that no one can agree that an AFRICAN actor would be best to play this role because a black lead can carry a film, but can a foriegn blackman do it? The best actors to portray BP have to be Djimon Hounsou (Gladiator, Amistad, Constantine) or Aewale Ainnouye-Abaje (Oz, Ace Venture, Bourne Identity). It would also be great to see some good African character actors like Issach De Bankole (Ghost Dog, Skeleton Key) in this film. But will people pay to see this character or these actors?
Bishop: Bishop is so screwed. X-Mania is gonna die down a bit before he can appear in a movie. And more than likely writers, directors, movie studios will probably use Cable instead of Bishop and then use that as an excuse not to cast Bishop. (ala Gambit) Bishop is by far one of my favorite X-Men. I would love to see a District X movie or even a Bishop solo. It may be the only way he makes it to the big screen. Oh, and Keith Hamilton Cobb or Malcolm Jamal Warner for Bishop.

Luke Cage: Powerman has the best chance to become a success. Why? For all the wrong reasons. Like Blade, Luke Cage will probably transcend comicbooks. The concern however is that it will be turned into a blaxploitation film, a 2-hour video, a over-glorified hood flick, or all three. I like Singleton, but not for this film. Tyrese as Luke Cage? Ridiculous. I want Powerman. But I want to see a new trilogy idea. Powerman The Movie, Iron Fist The Movie, and top it off with Heroes For Hire The Movie. Will it happen? I doubt it.

Connor MacLeod
aka SonOfLogan

[terry78]

I was gonna mention John Stewart within DC's confines, but so many fanboys on here are so rampant about him merely being a supporting player in an upcoming GL movie, it's kind of a moot point. The thing is, I don't want the characters totally defined by their blackness, but how much of a hero they are. I want it acknowleged that they are black, but I don't want it run into the ground, either.

[KenK]

I think filmmakers missed their chance to jumpstart Nona Gaye's career. She had been around but had never been a "name actress", seeing her in roles in the Matrix sequels and Ali, I think she could have done very well as Storm. Of course, it's still the job of the screenwriters and director to make sure they include elements of her character in line with what we've always seen in the comics. If that doesn't happen, the actress isn't gonna matter.

[Connor MacLeod]

The thing is, I don't want the characters totally defined by their blackness, but how much of a hero they are. I want it acknowleged that they are black, but I don't want it run into the ground, either.

Exactly how I feel. Blade was an excellent example of this.

[Arach Knight]

-I don't think Blade really fits in this conversation. Most don't even think of Blade as a comic book film. Most mainstream movie goers aren't even aware that Blade is an old comic book character. Wesley Snipes already has a strong following as an actor, not just as a black actor. So Blade is in a league of its own. Even though it was no where near as sucessful as Spider-Man or even X-Men, Blade garnered three films. That shows how different it is. Blade is just Blade.

-Luke Cage doesn't have to be "blaxploitation." As crappy as it was, Steel didn't turn out that way. Cage doesn't have to either. He is a tough guy who lives in the streets. It wouldn't be a stereotype. It would just be his character. But if it calmed people any, they could always team him back up with Iron Fist...

[KenK]

Yeah, Steel was just a poorly made film regardless. Steel was made not for love of the character, but as a 90-minute Shaquille O'Neal commercial. Note all the in-jokes that reference Shaquille, especially one of him trying to toss a balled-up paper into a trash can, missing, and saying, "I never could make the free throws."

[Lightning Strykez!]

3) People are continually disapproving of Halle Berry as Storm, but I honestly can't think of another choice, other than perhaps Kerry Washington. But unless you really know your black actresses, then the name will be lost on 90% of the public. I mean really...who else could look and act the role? Somebody too old like Angela Basset? Or perhaps somebody else obscure like Nia Long? I don't mind people dismissing Halle, but at least offer up some substitutions. Otherwise, it is just baseless ranting.



Call me unorthodox...but Beverly Johnson was born to play Storm in my opinion.

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/oscars/74th_academy_awards_after_parties_photos/beverly_johnson/oscars2.jpg

http://www.anorexics.net/images/celebs/beverly_johnson.jpg

She's 5'11, regal and elegant. A bad-ass actress...and these are relatively recent pics; she's 47 years old here.

I just want to know who else FOX was considering back in 2000 aside from Halle Berry for the role of Storm. :( The fact that they'd cast someone fairskinned and petite for this character when other actresses like this were available (and Beverly has that deep throaty voice that Storm has--I can just imagine her shrieking "The Wind Cries Storm!" LOL ) brings up the whole "one-size-fits-all" token black actress thing.

We know that Bryen Singer didn't want the character included anyways, so did he just say "Well fuggit!" and just cast the first pretty face he saw? To me, this betrays a lack of understanding for the character. I love Halle Berry, and I am looking forward to her in X3. But one look at her and it's blatantly obvious that the director/casting crew just didn't give a damn in casting Storm.

[Arach Knight]

She may be a good actress and tall enough for the role...but her age shows. I'd rather they cast Free from 106 and Park, than Beverly Johnson. But I do applaud the thought that went into that choice. That is much better than just saying Halle was miscast and then offering no other possibility. If Halle turned the role down, Beverly Johnson could fill in nicely.

[KenK]

I'd rather they cast Free from 106 and Park, than Beverly Johnson.

Wow, you're officially an idiot! I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but comments like this just don't make sense to me! I will agree that despite being beautiful for her age, you can still tell that Beverly Johnson's up there in age. But saying you'd rather they cast Free from 106 & Park?!?! Has Free EVER acted?!? Damn all that, what about the fact that she's all of five-foot-nothing! This is what we talk about, there just don't seem to be many viable alternatives that fit the character. There aren't that many high-profile black actresses to begin with, let alone ones who are a closer physical match to Storm, and can bring the qualities of the character to life. It's not a simple matter of hiring any black actress and slapping a white wig on her.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wow, you're officially an idiot!

:( Ken!!

Remember my invitation requested sophistication? Um, yeah...let's keep it nice in here...there's so much to discuss. But I agree, Free from 106 & Park wouldn't be my first choice.

As far as Beverly's age, she's certainly mature, but Halle and Famke themselves are in the 40-year old range. Makeup, lighting and other tricks could have easily transformed Beverly into the consummate Storm. Plus, she's an underrated actress who excels with "in-your-face" fiery roles--something that Storm needs.

Besides, I think Storm being more mature would work fine for this franchise. After all, Storm is the Earth mother and Guardian of the group--and such protectiveness and respect comes with age. After all, the biggest weight in that cast comes from seasoned cast members (Pat Stewart and Ian McKellan).

[Arach Knight]

I didn't think it was possible to encounter two morons in a single morning, but KenK, you gladly proved that theory wrong. As if you can't read the sarcasm...maybe the part where I said Beverly Johnson would make a good fill in if Halle Berry turned down the role, wasn't enough for you to know that I approved of that choice. Do any people on Super Hero Hype actually read what the hell I say? Can you read worth a damn? My conjecture is no....no you can't. I clearly say Beverly Johnson is a nice substitution for Halle Berry, but here you come with a statement that you formed without reading the WHOLE damn post. Good grief....

[KenK]

Sorry, sorry. But damn, Free? How's that even an option?

[Arach Knight]

Sorry, sorry. But damn, Free? How's that even an option?

Can you freaking read? Can you freaking read?!?!?!

"I do applaud the thought that went into that choice. That is much better than just saying Halle was miscast and then offering no other possibility. If Halle turned the role down, Beverly Johnson could fill in nicely."

Oh wait...reading the whole damn post would require a thought process and effort. Which must be twice as much as you were willing to offer. I came here to contribute to a friendly discussion. Heaven forbid I sarcastically say Free from 106 & Park, only to renege it with my above statement. But obviously sarcasm and reading for context are severely beyond you. Get bent....

[Angry Sentinel]

Yeah, Steel was just a poorly made film regardless. Steel was made not for love of the character, but as a 90-minute Shaquille O'Neal commercial. Note all the in-jokes that reference Shaquille, especially one of him trying to toss a balled-up paper into a trash can, missing, and saying, "I never could make the free throws." The good news is that there have been precious "few" offerings like this one. Otherwise I could see Hollyfake quickly using it as their "reason" why they dont want to make "Black" powered superhero movies.

Now we just have to remove the scars of Catwoman. The deep part of that is that the movie was crap, but Halle actually tried to put the "Grrrr" in that character. Too bad it was such a wasted effort.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Okay, I think you guys are even now, so let's move on. :p

So Arachknight, do you believe that Halle's casting betrays a lack of respect for the character? Iman, Beverly Johnsnon, Vivica A. Fox, Angela Basset, hell--even eccentric-ass Grace Jones was on the scene doing big things in 2000. Why would they go for someone that is the polar opposite of the character in both appearance and mannerisms?

See, to me this spells certain gloom and doom for future productions like Black Panther, Luke Cage. I fear they will just cast any black actor rather than one that can capture the essence of the character. So instead of casting someone like Djimon for Panther, they'd go for someone "pretty" and mainstream like Boris Kodjoe.

Djimon vs. Boris Kodjoe is to Panther what Beverly Johnson vs. Halle Berry is to Storm...in my opinion.

[tamron]

Storm
The problem with a Storm film, in my mind, is that she's been so strongly connected to the X-Men throughout her history. She's had only two solo series, to my knowledge, compared to characters like Gambit and Rogue, who have had several. She's rarely left the mansion for long stretches, and what's ironic is that on her longest stretch (X-Treme X-Men), she took a team with her! She doesn't have the personal villians for a solo film, the way Wolverine has a Sabretooth or a Cyber, the way Gambit has Sinister. Callisto, maybe, or Marrow, but the Morlocks should be in an X-Men movie. And to take her away from the X-Men takes away one of her defining characteristics, that of den mother of the X-Men. In short, I'd rather they just take the time to get Storm right in the X-films, rather than give her a spinoff. In no way is a Storm solo film Marvel's answer to WW, as hunter rider said, its a method to milk the X-brand dry.

A Kerry Washington or a Nona Gaye might be good options if they were casting now, but Storm was cast in '99. Look at Nona Gaye's filmography. '01's "Ali" was her big break, she hadn't done anything of note before that. Kerry Washington became known with last years' 'Ray'. How would they have known of them? It's not like they did a big casting call for Storm. As for Beverly Johnson, she's not a good actress, she's just a model. Iman, Angela Bassett? Love them, especially Angela, but they are too old for Storm. Vivica was a good option, but in the end, I think Singer simply wanted some starpower in that slot, and Halle was then and still is the biggest black actress in the biz.

Blade
We all know Wesley was screwed with Trinity. The less said about that cluster**** of a film, the better.

The Blade show could be good, depending on how its done. If it is about a young Blade, as previously rumored, I say get Lee Thompson Young (The Famous Jett Jackson, Friday Night Lights), maybe let Wesley produce, and it could work. The movie to TV transition has been done successfully before, it can work with Blade, if they put in effort and don't expect the name to carry the show.

Luke Cage
I honestly believe Singleton's Luke Cage should not, and hopefully, will not, see the light of day. If you've noticed, Avi has been quite quiet about it since Singleton made his 'Tyrese or bust' comment. It's not just the possibility of Tyrese and Singleton that worries me though, the fact that the script was written by Ben Ramsey. His two feature films 'The Big Hit' and 'Love and a Bullet' hamfistedly combine action and humor, and a Luke Cage film written in that tone would be absolutely disasterous.

It will be very interesting to see if Cage's current love interest Jessica Jones, a white woman, is put into the film, if Cage is made.

I definitely want Henry Simmons for Cage, and someone like Mario Van Peebles directing.

Bishop
Three words: Keith...Hamilton...Cobb.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/2201/tyr51hu.jpg

Black Panther
Djimon Hounsou as T'Challa, Antoine Fuqua directing, and get Chris Priest to co-write the script with a veteran scriptwriter.

[terry78]

I actually would've liked to see those two chicks from Girlfriends, if they had a little more acting experience outside of the show, take on Storm, if only because they look a little more like her.

http://www.600.org/tv_stars/pictures/golden_brooks.jpg

She has the look, but her acting is a little...meh.

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/blackdcc/nubiandeuce/DCC_JillJones_Kingmag2.jpg

http://ultimatecomics.free.fr/xmen/wallpapers/Storm_Wallpaper_01.jpg

[tamron]

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/blackdcc/nubiandeuce/DCC_JillJones_Kingmag2.jpg



Jill Marie Jones definitely has the look of Storm. I can't stand her character on Girlfriends though. She plays a total man-eating, self-serving heifer.

[Arach Knight]

Okay, I think you guys are even now, so let's move on. :p

So Arachknight, do you believe that Halle's casting betrays a lack of respect for the character? Iman, Beverly Johnsnon, Vivica A. Fox, Angela Basset, hell--even eccentric-ass Grace Jones was on the scene doing big things in 2000. Why would they go for someone that is the polar opposite of the character in both appearance and mannerisms?


-I didn't mean to mark the thread with that little argument. I just don't appreciate being called a moron when I was clearly being sarcastic. I already had somebody call me a homophobe in the gay colossus thread for the X-Men Comics forum. And I guess I was still upset over that. I'll try to keep tenable from there on out.

-I don't think Halle was the worst choice. The only thing that bothers me is the wig. Her own hair can be long enough to dye white or at least a very light shade of blonde. The wig she has in the films is just terribly obvious. I think the problem is in the writing of the character. She is fierce while wielding her powers, yet she is timid otherwise. She is portrayed as this comforting type of character. Not that Storm is not comforting. It is just sad to see the character under developed and under utilized. I guess if aesthetic was the main desire, Kerry Washington wouldn't be that bad

http://images.hollywood.com/images/4_1742946.jpg

Or Gabrielle Union perhaps

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/290/3384/320/gabrielle_union08.jpg

But that is just my thoughts on aesthetics. Though I must say, Kerry Washington is a very competent and diverse actress. I just feel that most of Storm's problems were in the character writing and not with Halle Berry, who was obviously very limited in what she could do with the role.

[terry78]

And while I know it doesn't matter due to them not being accurate with several characters physical traits in the movie, Storm is supposed to be almost 6 ft. Her height shouldn't overshadow her persona, but she would be an intimidating looking woman in real life, and Halle just looks very tiny, even compared to the younger females in the cast. I think the comics and the shows got her pretty well, as she is this almost Amazonian statuesque African, yet as soon as she gets into an enclosed space and her claustrophobia sets in, that means jack ****.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Storm...would be an intimidating looking woman in real life


http://www.pathguy.com/grace_jones2.jpg

http://www.keystone.ch/public/teaser/15110578.jpg

I will kicka ya ass brack gurl!!!!!

[terry78]

The body of Grace Jones, but the face of Jill Marie Jones. That's what Storm should be.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I just feel that most of Storm's problems were in the character writing and not with Halle Berry, who was obviously very limited in what she could do with the role.

You know what's really sad? Because of Hollywood's carelessness, they've done two things with these X-Men films: They've ruined Storm. And they've also ruined Halle Berry's career.

Think about it: Halle was never on the lips of fanboys and being hated on this level until she was involved with Storm. The writing, the look, the directing--all screamed "We don't know what we're doing with this character", and they botched the job.

As a result, Halle got black-balled, and even when she used her Oscar clout to get better treatment for the character, such attempts were flamed. Then she did Catwoman to give herself an "out" from the franchise and that was a disaster.

If the execs respected the source material, Halle wouldn't have been put in that position. Now our top black actress and top black Marvel heroine have been simitaneously ruined. :rolleyes:

[terry78]

The only "mutant" that I really honestly relate to is Alex from the Runaways series. My mom actually read a few pages of a book I had and was like, "that's you to a tee, boy."

http://www.whatthefun.net/runaways/visuals/alex02.jpg
http://www.whatthefun.net/runaways/visuals/alex06.jpg

His character I liked, because that's what most black dudes really are, and not that whole extreme gangsta that the media likes to perpetuate.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Another interesting situation in Hollywood recently was Universal stopping production of Tru Blue,a film by Antoine Fuqua starring Denzel and Benicio Del Torro.the film was apparently "to expensive" given the dark subject matter (A Harlem drug kingpin smuggling drugs into the country in the coffins of vietnam soldiers),they figured they wouldn't make their money back,However right now martin Scorscese is making The Dpearted with Leo Dicaprio and Matt Damon and it is a dark thriller that won't be a blockbuster and yet despite being over budget and over schedule already, the production continues unhampered by the studio

Good point.

It sounds like a double standard to me, but since I'm not involved with either production who knows...but to do Tru Blue film with Oscar talent from Denzel Washington involved would be low-hanging fruit for a studio...at least a studio who's smart and fearless.

[KenK]

The only "mutant" that I really honestly relate to is Alex from the Runaways series. My mom actually read a few pages of a book I had and was like, "that's you to a tee, boy."

http://www.whatthefun.net/runaways/visuals/alex02.jpg
http://www.whatthefun.net/runaways/visuals/alex06.jpg

His character I liked, because that's what most black dudes really are, and not that whole extreme gangsta that the media likes to perpetuate.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I was as a teen(kinda still am that way now, I'm only 25).


Think about it: Halle was never on the lips of fanboys and being hated on this level until she was involved with Storm. The writing, the look, the directing--all screamed "We don't know what we're doing with this character", and they botched the job.

THANK YOU! No one ever had a single thing bad to say about Halle until this film. And worse, people insist on claiming she only got an Oscar for taking her clothes off. I bet you no one would have said that sh** if Diane Lane had won when she was nominated for Unfaithful. People forget her winning a Golden Globe for Introducting Dorothy Dandrige, so clearly she doesn't just get praise for nuding up.

[Angry Sentinel]

I think the main problem here is that most of the concepts are limited by the original source documentation. Think about it, we have several characters, but not a ton of developement in most cases. Arguabley Luke Cage, Bishop, Blade, and Storm have the most exposure and characterizations in the last 30 years, but that's really it. Oh sure there have been plenty of characters, but maintstream depictions? Most of these identities (including the big 4) stories and comic saturation pale in comparison to that of Spiderman, Superman, Batman, even Wolverine (the guy is in every Xmen book and has sustained his own for 20 yrs).

Dont get me wrong, I would love to see it happen. We just got to keep in mind that as far as these characters are concerned they have even more of a "Do I care" obstacle to hurdle than some of the past or future offerings (hulk, daredevil, wonderwoman).

The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film?

-Thank goodness for the Xmen movies for getting this character fully fleshed out, introduced and ready to make her stride into....wait a minute! My fellow posters have already elaborated in detail on this, so I'm just gonna make one more suggestion....If you do it, your gonna need a whole lot more than a few lame lines and some "special" effects tornados. Go get Chris claremont and have him handfist the screenwiter and director all the WAY THROUGH PRODUCTION!!

*What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions?
-My guess would be chicken hearted production companies. Dont get me wrong, most, if not all, would be huge gambles and undertakings. But imagine the pay off if they succeed.


*The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?

-You know this may surprise some but I actually thought of ROLO when I was maybe 16yrs old (over 10yrs ago). I love the thought of these two taking aim at each others heart. But I'm sticking to my original guns that this doesnt belong in X3. Two reasons:
Phoenix SAGA!!!...which brings me to my second...
ROLO deserves and needs more time than an honorable mention.

*Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood?

-No, they are pioneers, All "firsts" get lots of attention and spamming and whatnot. There would be a ton of talk if they were the first woman to Stand lead in a major hollywood production. Yes, their color plays a factor but its due largely to the fact that they are pioneers. Hopefully we can see more succesful offerings and that should pave the way for more characters and better characterizations.

*Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars?

-Yes, as far as actors are concerned, but things are starting to change largely due to the fact/success of Denzel, Halle, Jamie. They have made it "acceptable" (not necessarily because they are special) to have the lead roles be a "Black" person and still be popular or demanded. The superheroes I think is more a product of the source material not expanding in that direction yet.

*What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises?

-It's expanding in leaps and bounds, seems like just today I was having the conversation about the laws of business. Color/race is in the eye of the consumer. The business man is primarily interested in raping the consumer. He will feed into the demands of said consumer. The consumer is now showing great interest in a broader based product (not just exclusionary ones). The most prejudice and biggoted business man will not ignore his favorite color.... the COLOR OF MONEY!

Great thread! http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[OutcryX]

http://www.pathguy.com/grace_jones2.jpg

http://www.keystone.ch/public/teaser/15110578.jpg

I will kicka ya ass brack gurl!!!!!


I would seriously commit random acts of MURDER if Grace Jones had been Storm. eew yuk, nasty, disgusting, puke. horror! HORROR! My freakin eyes hurt maan!

[Lightning Strykez!]

I would seriously commit random acts of MURDER if Grace Jones had been Storm. eew yuk, nasty, disgusting, puke. horror! HORROR! My freakin eyes hurt maan!


LOL

Yeah it makes what we have in Halle seem like a gift from God doesn't it. :p

[Caliber]

I think if they choice to make a storm movie, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't work because I don't think people want to see Storm. I like how she was in the X Men movies but I'm not a huge X Men fan. I like the idea of Luke Cage because I feel it can be done without be ing stereotypical. It would be different from most marvel films.

I haven't notice any unfair treatment but only to Halle Berry for taking the Catwoman role. It wasn't neccessary at all but thats different. She has done a great job as Storm but she hasn't been given much to work with.

[KenK]

I would seriously commit random acts of MURDER if Grace Jones had been Storm. eew yuk, nasty, disgusting, puke. horror! HORROR! My freakin eyes hurt maan!

LOL

Yeah it makes what we have in Halle seem like a gift from God doesn't it.

Hey now! No, she probably wouldn't have made a good Storm, she definitely wasn't a good Bond Girl, but there's no need to be mean! This woman's still a fashion/pop culture icon! Show her some freakin' respect!

[The Storm]

*The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film

I think it could work but not right now. IMO there is a bit of a superhero overload. The general movie goers are going to get sick of them just like they have with other genres. I think a mini series would be better, gives viewers a chance to get to know the real Storm. Giving us more of a drama and story rather than an effect laden show.

*What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions?

One word: HOLLYWOOD. Its hard for them to green light a project showing black people in a different light. They are happy to show us as drug dealers etc. They wouldn't know how to do it, it would take up too much of their time because it needs to be done properly. Why waste time and money when they can just keep chucking us remakes and sequels?!

*The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?

This is the first I've heard of it, never read the comics and don't remember everything from the 90's cartoon. But I do remember the episode where they were lovers, someone mentioned this on a previous page. IMO its a good thing but there is so much going on in X3 I would rather they just hinted at the possibilities (sp?). Hugh and Halle have fantastic chemistry, as seen in Swordfish.

*Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood?

Never really heard much about it until I came on here but I do think its unfair. Halle has received some harsh treatment from critics and fanboys alike for firstly not being the Storm everyone knows and loves and then for asking for her. Fanboys need to make up their mind, would they rather stick with the Storm they've had or support Halle. There are a number of reasons of why Storm was watered down but they've been discussed and argued too many times for me to go over them.

I'm not really a Blade fan so I'm not aware of problems in the Blade camp.

*Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars?

I would say black superheros and not black actors. They are certain characters in the X-Men films who had more development than Storm and I couldn't see the point in that. The only reason I saw was Bryan Singer's obvious dislike of the character and love for others. Storm had a more prominent role in X2 which I was glad of ; I was sick of arguing people who said Storm was only in X1 to get her ass kicked and served no other purpose than being the token ethnic character. Although most people didn't agree with Storm in X2 I was just glad she was still there!

Blade hasn't done as well as other films such as Spiderman and Batman because firstly it has more edge to it and secondly because it was marketed differently (sp?) to others. I mean Elektra was all over the place and it was complete cack and Blade Trinity got more publicity because of its cast i.e. Ryan Renolds and Jessica Biel. IMO Blade Trinity was a video and was promoting Renolds and Biel rather than Blade. Although Batman, Spiderman, X-Men are the most popular comics/films I still think others should receive the marketing that they do. Those films aside, there hasn't been a decent comic book movie in a while (Sin City exception).


*What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises?

Possibilities are endless, as long as black superheros are portrayed well and are just as worthy of attention of their white counterparts.

[OutcryX]

Hey now! No, she probably wouldn't have made a good Storm, she definitely wasn't a good Bond Girl, but there's no need to be mean! This woman's still a fashion/pop culture icon! Show her some freakin' respect!


Oh. oops. my bad. I'll turn away as I puke and murder people alot less randomly now. Hows that for some respect.

[terry78]

http://www.ibiza-voice.com/news/photo/Grace-Jones-lookalike-+-2-x.jpg
http://www.a-diction.com/featr/images/storm_mohawk.gif

[spider-jide]

I don't think they should flood the market with X-Men solo projects.

Agreed. Thats one of the factors that turns me off the x-comics, there are just too many. I'm sure most if not all of you have heard about the wolverine and magneto spin off movies, these ideas are an unecessary waste imo. Wolverine is pretty much the star of the x-movies while everyone else has cameos and a magneto movie?? Why? What is to gain from such a movie? Audiences saw the intro t x1 and we all know how mageto turns out, so why go back again and try to elaborate on something that is completely unecessary when other more deserving characters should get their time.

For every spin off movie made, its a wasted opportunity to advance in the developments of flms based on caracters like, ironman, thor, black panther, characters who would have something to actually offer.

[spider-jide]

I'd love to see Black Panther get adapted. Rumors were flying for a while about it, with Wesley Snipes as the lead, though now I prefer someone else since he's Blade.

Yeah, however, I heard that Snipes is now keen in producing the movie instead, which I personally think is a better idea.

[spider-jide]

I remember Lauren Shuller Donner first mentioned the idea of a Storm film. Now...was Halle miscast? Maybe yes, maybe no. I can picture Halle as being Storm, if she would get the chance to actually BE Storm. Sure...she's not tall, etc, but she can pull off the fury, the essence of Storm. Catwoman was NOT a good film at all, but she showed she could be powerful and feirce (I think I spelled that wrong) :p

Personally, I dont seee the point in a storm movie or any related x-movie to be honest. However, given the circumstances regarding the treatment of the characters on film, out of a wolverine, storm and magneto movie, I'd rather see a storm movie because the potential for it to be a great movie is definately there, plus it redeems Berry as a heroine in a movie that actually is good. One big difference that is unique in a movie based on storm over mags and wolvie is the setting. Capturing various parts of Africa and witnessing a character develop and come to be with her mutant abilities, its something different and something that I for one would appreciate a lot more over a magneto movie.

[spider-jide]

If the execs respected the source material, Halle wouldn't have been put in that position. Now our top black actress and top black Marvel heroine have been simitaneously ruined. :rolleyes:

Thats an interesting pont you made. Execs dont respect the source material. I'll go on record as saying the majority of these execs have little to no knowledge of the comic mythos. It doesn't help either when you have Avi Arad shooting his mouth off all over the place, thinking out loud his horrible ideas and sactioning horrible script and plot ideas. There are just too many clueless people involved with our beloved comic bok movies.

Imagine if there was no internet.... :eek: there'd be anarchy, we'd get James Cameron's horrendous rendition of spider-man no doubt and a plathora of craptastic movies if ever made, will shame the comic book industry and the thoght of comic book movies based on heoes and characters of colour probably wont even be considered, if at all, it'd be a joke.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Yes, indeed Jide.

Personally, if they do make a Storm spin-off film, I'd actually rather them NOT cast Halle to do the role. That would be the perfect opportunity to get an actress that really looks like the character. I know some would complain about continuity with the X-Men films, but people would eventually get over it.

Continuity certainly didn't handicap Christian Bale in assuming the Dark Knight's cowl.

[terry78]

http://www.brokenfrontier.com/img/2005/mar/marvel/STORM001_COV.jpg
http://marvel1.scanz.tripod.com/image-marvel/marvel/Marvel1995Fleer_Storm.jpg
http://underworld.fortunecity.com/blood/201/marvel/storm011.JPG
http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/mophat/storm4.jpg
http://www.knightfalls.net/comics/marvel/x-men/storm/storm10.jpg
http://www.phonogram.us/images/comics/panther/Storm_1A.JPG


Artists never had any problem with wanting to keep her clothed, I'll tell you that much.;)

[Kmack]

http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/mophat/storm4.jpg
I've never saw this pic before. Awesome:up:

[Trickyg]

Has anyone spoken of Nick Fury yet, if not.

A possible role for him if they ever make a Nick Fury movie, or an Avengers movie with him featured. I know he started off White in the comic book series, but recently as you may know in the Ultimate Marvel franchise, he is now a black character. And a role by him could be: Samuel L. Jackson. Or even Ving Rhames. OOH! What about Laurence Fishburne?

And what about Green Lantern. A black actor could play John Stewart. And I have seen a pole on Yahoo movies for who could possbly play him if they had a Green Lantern movie. Don't flame for this, but: Will Smith could play him, and maybe even Blair Underwood, (where ever he is.) And the many black actors we have in the urban films. Possibilities are limitness right?

[Arach Knight]

Imagine if there was no internet.... :eek: there'd be anarchy, we'd get James Cameron's horrendous rendition of spider-man no doubt and a plathora of craptastic movies if ever made, will shame the comic book industry and the thoght of comic book movies based on heoes and characters of colour probably wont even be considered, if at all, it'd be a joke.

-Comic movies may be a more serious medium now than they were in the days of Nicholas Hammond and Bill Bixby, but they still aren't as well off as they could be. Today I was at the video rental store....to my dismay, Lion Gate Films released Man-Thing on DVD. Craptastic doesn't even begin to describe what I saw as I read the case. Lets not forget about the medicority of Elektra and Catwoman (with Catwoman obviously being the worst of the two). Comic films have come quite a way, but they still have a few more rungs on the ladder before they reach the top.

-I don't think that Hollywood, Avi Arad or Brian Singer, are unaware of the character. It isn't difficult to draw on some source material to come up with a reasonable adapation of Storm. That is why I said earlier that I don't blame Halle Berry at all. She is just doing what her role limits her to. I blame the writers for not having the concern to script her character with depth. They gave no origin to Storm. Not everybody needs one, but it can help if you are missing the other element. Motivation...Storm had no real motivation. We know that movie Storm fears humans. We know she is kind and powerful, but that is just about it. We don't know what motivates her to keep on being an X-Man. I think that is where the biggest mistake has been with Storm. She has no history or motivation. You can sometimes have one without the other, but never can a supporting character function as they should, without either.

-Actually in the Ultimates comic book, Nick Fury and the Ultimates were talking about who could play each of them in a movie. Nick of course said that Samuel L. Jackson would play him in a film adaption. I guess we'll find out who plays him in the new Ultimate Avengers animated film that is coming up next year (if I am not mistaken). Perhaps they did use Samuel L. Jackson. He did The Incredibles, so why not be Nick Fury in Ultimate Avengers?

[spider-jide]

Has anyone spoken of Nick Fury yet, if not.

A possible role for him if they ever make a Nick Fury movie, or an Avengers movie with him featured. I know he started off White in the comic book series, but recently as you may know in the Ultimate Marvel franchise, he is now a black character. And a role by him could be: Samuel L. Jackson. Or even Ving Rhames. OOH! What about Laurence Fishburne?

In regards to the nick fury movie, its being made by Marvel studios and Bruce Willis has been cast to play him.

An what about Green Lantern. A black actor could play John Stewart. And I have seen a pole on Yahoo movies for who could possbly play him if they had a Green Lantern movie. Don't flame for this, but: Will Smith could play him, and maybe even Blair Underwood, (where ever he is.) And the many black actors we have in the urban films. Possibilities are limitness right?

Personally, I'm not sure Will Smith is a good idea. I know he's capable of doing serious films but Will Smith as Green Latern wont work imo. I can just see him being himself. However, if he was asked to do it, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd accept because afterall, he did turn down the role of Neo and he may want some sort of iconic redemption. Then theres the sequals to worry about, Smith is pushing fourty and I dont see 3 lantern movies being made so quickly, I see it spanning at least 7 years. With that said, Smith isn't my choice, I'd rather someone else, a rising actor take the role.

[Arach Knight]

Isn't Jack Black playing Green Lantern in the new GL movie?

[spider-jide]

-Comic movies may be a more serious medium now than they were in the days of Nicholas Hammond and Bill Bixby, but they still aren't as well off as they could be. Today I was at the video rental store....to my dismay, Lion Gate Films released Man-Thing on DVD. Craptastic doesn't even begin to describe what I saw as I read the case. Lets not forget about the medicority of Elektra and Catwoman (with Catwoman obviously being the worst of the two). Comic films have come quite a way, but they still have a few more rungs on the ladder before they reach the top.

Agreed. I think its fair to say that comic book movies and live action shows being better than what they were 10, 20 and 30 years ago is something that isn't surprising and is expected, given the advancements in technical achievements and whatnot, however, as you said thats not the same as saying that these newer movies are spectacular and flawless. Much still needs to be done to make these movies better than they are. For me, I believe that a huge problem is, deviation. In every Marvel movie, there has been a strong sense of deviation that veers away from the source material and ideas that can be exctracted from the source material.

Take Blade for example. The first 2 movies were awesome but th 3rd was garbage, why? Because you had dracula, king of all vampires who to me, was a joke. His fear factor was significantly lower than Decon Frost's and Nomak's, was is that about, its dracula for godness sake. Then here was the nighstalkers. I get that they were supposed to be introduced and then get their own movie but damn, it was prety much their movie. For the premise of blade 3 to feel like a blade movie and still introduce the NS, they should have had blade do his thing, hardcore and have sick-ass batles with vamps and dracula. The NS should have had much smaller roles and should merely have been lowkey characters, in which the audience can see that they have the potential to be great on their own. Thats how it should have been done imo but instead the film deviated, heavily from its roots, pushing the main character of the trilogy to the sidelines and ruining a legendary character, dracula.

Then there's the spider-man movies, I dont even want to get started on this beause I've said it all in the spidey forums, so I'm going to keep this insanely brief. These movies are mediocre at best and what's annoying is that these movies are potentially the easiest in terms of storytelling and compelling plots to make and bring to the audience. Instead the powers that be shamefully deviate from the source material. No webshooters, GG's silly costume (I saw the other designs they had and they were much better), wimpifying peter parker to the point he's nothing but a shy, clumsy, monotonous, socially inept individual and thats still by the end of the second movie. Then there's doc ock, who's background origin was completely unecessary and a slap in the face to the greatness of the source material.
Then there's the hulk movie, thats self explanatory. If you've seen it, then you'll know how much unecessary deviating took place.

I dont want people to think I don like change because I do but what I dont like is unecessary deviations from the comics that could easily work well and perhaps even better on film


-I don't think that Hollywood, Avi Arad or Brian Singer, are unaware of the character. It isn't difficult to draw on some source material to come up with a reasonable adapation of Storm. That is why I said earlier that I don't blame Halle Berry at all. She is just doing what her role limits her to. I blame the writers for not having the concern to script her character with depth. They gave no origin to Storm. Not everybody needs one, but it can help if you are missing the other element. Motivation...Storm had no real motivation. We know that movie Storm fears humans. We know she is kind and powerful, but that is just about it. We don't know what motivates her to keep on being an X-Man. I think that is where the biggest mistake has been with Storm. She has no history or motivation. You can sometimes have one without the other, but never can a supporting character function as they should, without either.

I'm not saying that the powers that be are unaware of the character, I'm merely saying that their knowledge regarding the mythos/characters are severly limited. In order to bring out the best results for these movies, one has to consult the source material and to try and at least, gain a profound appreciation for what they're going to be working on. These days, we get writers and directors who are only familiar with the characters/mythos and have Avi Arad giving them synopsis'. Its interesing because I'm willing o bet most of these directors directing Marvel movies havn't actually sat down and read a comic for over a decade prior to filming.
In regards to storm, they're aware of who she is and what her powers are but have instead deviated from her true character and made her a shallow shadow of her comic book counterpart. Wether people like Halle or not, its undeniable thats she's a good actress, so its not her that is the problem. Care and attention needs to be applied to the script and thats whats been missing in not only the X-movies bt every other Marvel movie made.

[KenK]

Personally, I'm not sure Will Smith is a good idea. I know he's capable of doing serious films but Will Smith as Green Latern wont work imo. I can just see him being himself. However, if he was asked to do it, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd accept because afterall, he did turn down the role of Neo and he may want some sort of iconic redemption. Then theres the sequals to worry about, Smith is pushing fourty and I dont see 3 lantern movies being made so quickly, I see it spanning at least 7 years. With that said, Smith isn't my choice, I'd rather someone else, a rising actor take the role.

Smith was actually in talks with Rob Liefeld to play a Green Lantern-type character called The Mark, which would have had a comic series coinciding with the movie, but it never happened. Jada Pinkett-Smith was also a co-writer on an Awesome Entertainment comic, but like most of the stuff Awesome advertised, it never came out.

[Valechan]

I don't Like Logan... :(

[Lightning Strykez!]

I don't Like Logan... :(

I was waiting for you to arrive Sebita...welcome.

Can you clarify your statement? You don't like Logan as a character, or you don't care for a connection between him and Storm?

[spider-jide]

Smith was actually in talks with Rob Liefeld to play a Green Lantern-type character called The Mark, which would have had a comic series coinciding with the movie, but it never happened. Jada Pinkett-Smith was also a co-writer on an Awesome Entertainment comic, but like most of the stuff Awesome advertised, it never came out.


Thank God.

[comic book girl]

Thank you lighting strikez for inviting me here. In my personal opinion, I do believe that Halle Berry was an excellent choice for Storm. I mean who else can do it ?

[Connor MacLeod]

Thank you lighting strikez for inviting me here. In my personal opinion, I do believe that Halle Berry was an excellent choice for Storm. I mean who else can do it ?

Uh...Angela Bassett comes to mind pretty quickly. And there have been a lot of other suggestions. But I for one didn't think Halle was too bad. But she wasn't particularly great either.

[Arach Knight]

Uh...Angela Bassett comes to mind pretty quickly. And there have been a lot of other suggestions. But I for one didn't think Halle was too bad. But she wasn't particularly great either.

-Angela Basset wouldn't work. She is too known for movies like X and How Stella Got Her Groove Back. She is already type-cast in the minds of audiences. That alone would bring down even an astounding performance as Storm. Acting wise she could do it, but that is about it.


Smith was actually in talks with Rob Liefeld to play a Green Lantern-type character called The Mark, which would have had a comic series coinciding with the movie, but it never happened. Jada Pinkett-Smith was also a co-writer on an Awesome Entertainment comic, but like most of the stuff Awesome advertised, it never came out.

- I miss Awesome entertainment. They had KaBoom. That was on of my favorite comic books when I was younger. Too bad people don't remember the gauntlet wielding insanity of that comic....

[spider-jide]

But she wasn't particularly great either.

She wasn't "particularly great either" because her script was lacklustre. Berry cant be blamed for the job of the script writer or director. She acted out her scenes pretty well and had she been characterised properly she could have been awesome.

[Xfanfan]

Hi Lightning Im here

Well as far as Black super heroes getting their due its about time. I think that Storm does deserve her own movie however, I do agree that right now they should wait. It would be cool if Marvel could first give her an ongoing series to establish her as a solo character then we could have her in her own movie about 10 years from now. As far as the Wolverine/Storm relationship, I think its great and I am looking forward to that and hope they do it tastefully and not make it seem like a one night stand type of thing.

Xfanfan

[tamron]

Has anyone spoken of Nick Fury yet, if not.

Nick Fury shouldn't be black in the films. 616 is the real Fury. Ult. is Samuel Jackson:the comicbook.

[spider-jide]

Nick Fury shouldn't be black in the films. 616 is the real Fury. Ult. is Samuel Jackson:the comicbook.

You didn't read my earlier post. Its been confirmed that Marvel studios is making the movie and Bruce Willis has been cast to play Fury.

[PoSeiDon]

im just speaking on the issue of halle here. since im not into any other black comic character other than storm!

i am a firm believer that any other actress who would have played storm in x1 wouldnt have done a better job than halle for the simple fact that storm was a weak written character and would not have challenged any actress to out do themselves other than learning an accent, which everyone cant dovery well!

everyone has their opinions about halle. but i dont kno if common sense is working in some peoples favor! singer and company didnt write the character like the comic counter-part or close to it! so of course the protrayal of storm didnt go over well. i think halle did a fine job with what she had to do and the lines given to her! the problems with storm dont start with halle but the people who put x1 together!

halle isnt going to be liked by everyone just like everyone else. but the name calling, people typing things about her as if they know her, making threats to other members are all just god awful.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Hi Lightning Im here

Well as far as Black super heroes getting their due its about time. I think that Storm does deserve her own movie however, I do agree that right now they should wait. It would be cool if Marvel could first give her an ongoing series to establish her as a solo character then we could have her in her own movie about 10 years from now. As far as the Wolverine/Storm relationship, I think its great and I am looking forward to that and hope they do it tastefully and not make it seem like a one night stand type of thing.

Xfanfan


I'm annoyed though that Hollywood continues to perpetuate that every black character has to be ghetto, finger-snapping hos or drug dealers who can't articulate themselves. There is more to our culture than this.

And yet, when they get a chance to portrary a character that is revered, sophisticated and heralded as a GODDESS for Christ's sake, what do they do? They revamp her into a first-rate weak pu$$y with bad lines, bad hair and expositioning--"Driving Ms. Daisy" in the Blackbird for two movies straight. :o Meanwhile they empower her white counterparts with relationships and drama and better opportunities for development.

I'm not saying it's a race issue per se, but it's pretty clear Hollywood is intimidated by the chance to bring out a character who's presence SHOULD be swallowing all other female X-Men. Singer & Co. watered Storm down to a "Seen and not heard" level...and it's irritating because her voice is among the largest and most definitive of the entire X-Men saga.

[OutcryX]

-Angela Basset wouldn't work. She is too known for movies like X and How Stella Got Her Groove Back. She is already type-cast in the minds of audiences. That alone would bring down even an astounding performance as Storm. Acting wise she could do it, but that is about it.




- I miss Awesome entertainment. They had KaBoom. That was on of my favorite comic books when I was younger. Too bad people don't remember the gauntlet wielding insanity of that comic....


KaBOOM was an awesome comic. I loved it too! Oh i remember very well the gauntlety goodness of that book!...but back on topic...

Angela Bassett as Storm.....NO!!!! Please will you people QUIT with the Angela Bassett would have been great as Storm...cuz guess what....She ISN'T Storm, Halle Berry is....and seeing how most of the folk in this forum are well..of color, lol Shout out to the WHITE FOLK, lol. Then I would like to assume that you have seen Mrs. Bassett's work. the question comes to mind tho...what has she done lately, hell, what has she done since 1998? SuperNova? Ruby's Bucket of Blood? she was a bit player in that Bernie Mac baseball movie....For her to be as critically acclaimed and whatnot, then why isnt she getting anymore roles?

She COULD have made a good Storm....even though I think Storm is supposed to be JAW DROPPING ASTONISHINGLY OUT OF THIS WORLD GORGEOUS....Mrs. Basset is not. Halle Berry....well....she is damn fine, lol. I am not saying Angela Basset is ugly...she isnt, by far. But she has a certain...manliness to her that certainly ISNT Storm IMO. She had the height, the walk, the fiestiness...but NOT the attitude, personification, or look. She may have the regalness of the character tho. I can certainly see her as a Goddess....but she seems too Diva-eque for Storm. Just my opinion.

[tamron]

You didn't read my earlier post. Its been confirmed that Marvel studios is making the movie and Bruce Willis has been cast to play Fury.

I caught it. Just stating my opinion, since the subject came up.

[Arach Knight]

Nick Fury shouldn't be black in the films. 616 is the real Fury. Ult. is Samuel Jackson:the comicbook.

They could just do a film about the Ultimates. They are already doing Ultimate Avengers (animated film). That still leaves an opportunity for a black Nick Fury. And to quell all of this. I would just like to remind everybody that Fox already did that terrible made for T.V. movie, Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. It starred David Hasslehoff. It came out around the same time that the terrible Generation X made for T.V. movie came out. Anyways, if Ultimate Avengers is about the Ultimate universe, then I say Samuel L. Jackson all the way.

[JustABill]

Thanks for the invite Lightning. As a big fan of Storm, I think that this thread speaks volumes about how she should have been handled in the films.

It makes me mad that I'm not big in the script writing/directing business. I have tons of ways to portray our Weather Goddess right. And even ideas for a solo film. She'd be her strong mother hen figure, that's for damn sure.

Like others have said...Halle was a pretty good choice, if not the obvious one. She really has a 90 percent chance of hitting the role out of the park if given the right written material. What's so hard for most screenwriters to write Storm correctly? It's not as if she's some totally alien character arc type.

[Trickyg]

Anyways, if Ultimate Avengers is about the Ultimate universe, then I say Samuel L. Jackson all the way.

Here Here! That's what I've been saying!

[MJB]

The other 2 major Black characters that are up for adapting are both gonna show what hollywood thinks of Black superheroes and actors and their drawing power.Luke Cage i have a feeling will be made into some tacky "hip hop" movie geared more towards selling the latest Ja Rule single and subsequent merchandise than telling a good story
Black Panther should be epic and there is no other way to do him properly and the onscreen treatment he gets both in casting/directing and budget choices will say a lot about how hollywood views black heroes/actors as draws


Well I agree with you on Cage. it will be hiphopped uped with Singleton, but Ja Rule?? Ja Rule is played out, has been for a while.

Blank Panther should be epic and great, but no studio is going to front a big budget unless Will Smith is cast as T'Challa

[MJB]

Storm
The problem with a Storm film, in my mind, is that she's been so strongly connected to the X-Men throughout her history. She's had only two solo series, to my knowledge, compared to characters like Gambit and Rogue, who have had several. She's rarely left the mansion for long stretches, and what's ironic is that on her longest stretch (X-Treme X-Men), she took a team with her! She doesn't have the personal villians for a solo film, the way Wolverine has a Sabretooth or a Cyber, the way Gambit has Sinister. Callisto, maybe, or Marrow, but the Morlocks should be in an X-Men movie. And to take her away from the X-Men takes away one of her defining characteristics, that of den mother of the X-Men. In short, I'd rather they just take the time to get Storm right in the X-films, rather than give her a spinoff. In no way is a Storm solo film Marvel's answer to WW, as hunter rider said, its a method to milk the X-brand dry.

A Kerry Washington or a Nona Gaye might be good options, Vivica was a good option.


A solo storm movie would have been good if handled right and had FOX jumped on halle's wave of successs after her oscar win and beat WB to the punch with that whole Catwoman mess.

As for storm having a villian, it's true she really doesn't have any personel villians, but I liked the idea someone suggested a while back that The Shadow King would've made for a good villian in a solo movie. The thing also good about the xmen is their rich stable of characters of mutant bad guys that the xmen have delt with and we know are never going to make the movie. One of them could easily could be fitted as a villian for Storm. You have bad guys like Selene, Exodus, Candra or any of the externals, Sauron, Shinobi Shaw, The GamesMaster, The Upstarts, and so forth, the list can go on. Their is also a stable of undelings who can work with any of these x villians.


Vivica Fox for Storm??? Ughhhh and Thank God, she doesn't need to be anywhere near this role.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Does anyone think that the current House Of M: Black Panther series could be a great starting point for a solo film for T'Challa AND Storm together?

I mean let's look at it: A sapien and Mutant Queen ruling over Africa, and facing common enemies i.e. Kraven or even Ian McKellan as Magneto. :eek: A film shot in native Africa would give those two characters plenty of time to do the following:

*Delve deep into Storm's origin--her loss of her parents at a young age

*Show how Ororo was worshipped by tribes for her Goddess-like dominion over the elements and agriculture

*Delve deep into T'Challa's origin and explain his royalty

*By having the two characters in a love story, the need for relationships will be satisfied

*Mind-blowing SFX with the weather etc. could be created against an African landscape

If two notable actors of colour were cast for these roles, I bet this concept would make one helluva splash at the box office. As long as the writing is good the possibilities are endless. All people have to do is get creative!

[Hunter Rider]

Well I agree with you on Cage. it will be hiphopped uped with Singleton, but Ja Rule?? Ja Rule is played out, has been for a while.

Blank Panther should be epic and great, but no studio is going to front a big budget unless Will Smith is cast as T'Challa

Thats the sad thing,i like Will but he isnt right for T'Challa IMO but since he is one of only 2 Black actors that are big money draws he is the only chance of HW bankrolling a big budget Black Panther movie

[Hunter Rider]

You didn't read my earlier post. Its been confirmed that Marvel studios is making the movie and Bruce Willis has been cast to play Fury.

Marvel and Paramount are definately making it but Willis isnt cast,Arad said he is interested but no deal has been signed yet

[Hunter Rider]

Good point.

It sounds like a double standard to me, but since I'm not involved with either production who knows...but to do Tru Blue film with Oscar talent from Denzel Washington involved would be low-hanging fruit for a studio...at least a studio who's smart and fearless.

Thats exactly it,im not sure if it is Denzel they dont have faith in,it's more Fuqua but again i do find it a double standard in this case given the juaxtaposition of The Departed

[KenK]

Thats exactly it,im not sure if it is Denzel they dont have faith in,it's more Fuqua but again i do find it a double standard in this case given the juaxtaposition of The Departed

Oh there's definitely a double standard here, but also maybe, just maybe, waryness given Fuqua's last directorial outing, King Aurthur, which didn't do too well. Still you'd think they'd look at Denzel being the big name that he is, and the fact that it was the Fuqua-directed Training Day that Denzel carried out a performance that subsequently won him the first Best Actor Oscar for a black actor since Sidney Poitier. That should be enough clout, but clearly, something else is keeping the film from being made.

[MJB]

Oh there's definitely a double standard here, but also maybe, just maybe, waryness given Fuqua's last directorial outing, King Aurthur, which didn't do too well. Still you'd think they'd look at Denzel being the big name that he is, and the fact that it was the Fuqua-directed Training Day that Denzel carried out a performance that subsequently won him the first Best Actor Oscar for a black actor since Sidney Poitier. That should be enough clout, but clearly, something else is keeping the film from being made.

Denzil is cool, but to old for BP.

[Hunter Rider]

Denzil is cool, but to old for BP.

I dont think you read the full convo,we wernt talking about BP,we were talking about Tru Blu

[comic book girl]

Uh...Angela Bassett comes to mind pretty quickly. And there have been a lot of other suggestions. But I for one didn't think Halle was too bad. But she wasn't particularly great either.
I didn't mean for the acting. I have said Angela Bassett before and I got ridiculed.

[spider-jide]

Marvel and Paramount are definately making it but Willis isnt cast,Arad said he is interested but no deal has been signed yet

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. :up:

[Hunter Rider]

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. :up:

:up: persoanly im hoping he does take the role,the Sam J UF choice is not so interesting IMO

[Arach Knight]

Does anyone think that the current House Of M: Black Panther series could be a great starting point for a solo film for T'Challa AND Storm together?

I mean let's look at it: A sapien and Mutant Queen ruling over Africa, and facing common enemies i.e. Kraven or even Ian McKellan as Magneto. :eek: A film shot in native Africa would give those two characters plenty of time to do the following:

*Delve deep into Storm's origin--her loss of her parents at a young age

*Show how Ororo was worshipped by tribes for her Goddess-like dominion over the elements and agriculture

*Delve deep into T'Challa's origin and explain his royalty

*By having the two characters in a love story, the need for relationships will be satisfied

*Mind-blowing SFX with the weather etc. could be created against an African landscape

If two notable actors of colour were cast for these roles, I bet this concept would make one helluva splash at the box office. As long as the writing is good the possibilities are endless. All people have to do is get creative!

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

[JustABill]

I couldn't have said it better Arach.

[James"007"Bond]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.

Bingo.

[Bluefire]

As an african american male i was immediately drawn to storm.Mostly due to the fact that not only was she one of few black superheros she was a female, who lead a team and was incredibly powerful.In those days comic book women were screaming for their lovers to come save them and most black characters spoke horrible ebonics but storm was none of those things.while i did find a rich and compelling character in storm i found that as time went on she started heavily lacking her ethnicity. she would no longer wear her african beads, jewells or cloth she wouldn't even mention her homeland.You would think as the only black mutant on the team she was on she would be shown to deal with some racism but we never saw that.it was like the ethnicity in storm was sucked dry turning her personality into that of a mild mannered white woman [no offense].When storms hair became braided i was begining to think that maybe the old storm would return to me and while pieces of her appear once and awhile the old ororo appears to be dead.As for my opinions on x2 storm she doesn't even deserve to be called storm she lacks ANY substance and has been nothing but a device used to enhance OTHER characters personalities and not her own.Truth be told this isn't the first time, storm was given the exact same crappy treatment in x-men evolution. all the other x-men were made younger while storm was turned into a granny that would appear once and while to do magic tricks for the kiddies then disappear. the producers of x-men evolution commented that they never really got storms character but i'm sure the split personality freak rogue and the psychotic loving mother/babbling psycho mystique's personality were so much easier to understand [not sarcasm]. Basicly The only way they can possibly redeem storm in x3 in my eyes is put back that tragic origin scene of hers give her some god damn character development give her a civilian outfit that represents her deep ties to africa like comic storm use to do and for the love of god make her FLY! they call her a weatherwitch for a reason!

[OutcryX]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.


DIARY OF A MAD BLACK WOMAN
Production Budget: $5.5 million
Domestic: $50,633,099 + Overseas: $19,104

= Worldwide: $50,652,203

THE HONEYMOONERS
Production Budget: $25 million
Domestic Total Gross: $12,843,849

BEAUTY SHOP
Production Budget: N/A
Domestic Total Gross: $36,351,350


Now, I dunno about Beauty Shop( the movie was ...meh) But The Honeymooners was a complete and total disaster. Never ever ever should have been made.
But Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a run away success. It was number one when released. It goes to show that Black Folk will invest their money in christian themed family oriented fare. The funny thing is, Tyler Perry is gay...but thats another story, nor is it confirmed..kinda like Luther Vandross. None of these movies are blockbusters but it does show that there IS an audience for an all black cast film. Other races may not go to them b/c they feel like the movie isnt marketed for them...like they are made especially 'for us, by us' which in most cases is kinda true. But a film like Storm, who has millions of fans across the racial spectrum shouldnt be made as or marketed as a blaxploitation kinda film or a film made only for blacks.

A Storm film or a Black Panther film CAN do well and very well. Blade proved that. and he is a MUCH lesser known character than Storm, slightly if not neck and neck with Black Panther. People WOULD go see a movie about black heroes set in Africa...they wouldn't expect a WHITE hero set in Africa.

People *****ed about Catwoman(a film i enjoyed) because Halle Berry was in the role. The character had none of the origin, name, setting, abilities, background OR race as the comic it was based upon. If the movie had been called anything else, people wouldnt have *****ed. Not everything has to be set in NYC or americanized in general.

Besides a Black Panther starring Djimon Hounsou would rock our worlds. Luke Cage.....I would say Michael Jai White....but he was already Spawn....
Storm...if not played by Halle Berry....Nona Gaye would be good.

[MJB]

DIARY OF A MAD BLACK WOMAN
Production Budget: $5.5 million
Domestic: $50,633,099 + Overseas: $19,104

= Worldwide: $50,652,203

Tyler Perry is gay

[/color][/left]

Tyler Perry is GAY?? Whoa! I don't know a lot about him, but I never heard he was gay. At any rate it's his business, but i'm glad you posted the figures for the guy who said it was a bomb financially.

[Arach Knight]

Blade is different. It doesn't even involve the Marvel logo. On top of that, it isn't a movie set in Africa with an all black cast. I didn't say black people are doomed if they try to take a leading role. I said an all black super hero film set in Africa, isn't going to do well nation wide. How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for super heroes. Especially one they don't know about. T'Challa isn't the same as having Blade, who is a vampire hunting martial artist. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal...

[JP]

Tyler Perry is NOT gay.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Damn, this thread is turning out better than I even expected. Thanks to all of ya'll for your input...keep 'em coming! :up:

[terry78]

I think black audiences will support it. There are quite a few of us that do read comics and are into them, hence so many of us making sure we see every new one that comes out. Even the most thuggish ignorant dude you know more than likely has comics stashed somewhere, or reads them in the store at least.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I too think it could be a great box office blow-out if done right. The key to a successful outing like what Terry's mentioning boils down to 5 things:

*A strong cast

*A strong director

*A studio who believes in this project

*A powerful script

*Savvy marketing

[tamron]

The main reason "Diary" worked was because it was adapted from a wildly successful series of stageplays by Tyler Perry. It's name recognition in the black community made it an almost automatic success, even though the general public had no idea what it was. It also didn't hurt that Perry was very smart with bankrolling and filming the movie (fronting his own money for production, filming in his home,) which increased profit.

[The Storm]

I still haven't a chance to see 'Diary' but from one review I read I heard it was very corny. I think a black superhero film could possibly if done properly as I said before. With rap/rnb as the most popular form of music and seeing more black actors on the A list IMO there is an audience for it. As long as the marketing was done properly and the studio are behind as Lightning said.

[OutcryX]

I still haven't a chance to see 'Diary' but from one review I read I heard it was very corny. I think a black superhero film could possibly if done properly as I said before. With rap/rnb as the most popular form of music and seeing more black actors on the A list IMO there is an audience for it. As long as the marketing was done properly and the studio are behind as Lightning said.

The movie was a bit corny and a little long as well....but overall was enjoyable. They threw alot of subplots in that needed tying up too(The drug addicted aunt who happens to be the wife of the main character's lawyer, Madea's house arrest, the new love interest, revenge again the former husband, the ex husband's underworld dealings....) the movie had alot going on. was good. but not for repeat viewings...kinda like the plays, IMHO.

But back on topic....An all black cast Superhero film set in Africa CAN work. As stated by others, If the subject matter is taken seriously and the studio and director and cast are all behind it...it can work. i had more to say...but I got distracted and lost my train of thought...oh well.

[Arach Knight]

I don't want anybody to be of the idea that I am heavily against this sort of film. I am the kind of person that formulates an opinion to express my own view, rather than a superficial belief. To my experince, ethnic movies just don't do well. Even if they have the catch of super heroes, I honestly don't see a massive audience. $55 million is great for Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but if you look at the monsterous success of Marvel's recent films....I think Punisher did the worst and even that mostl likely reached/topped $100 million. I love a good "ethnic movie." In fact, I own The Debut, Better Luck Tomorrow, "O" and Save the Last Dance. Of all of those, only Save The Last Dance succeeded on a wide scale. I'd be willing to attribute that success to its MTV aimed themes and white lead actress as the story focus. But you look at "O" (which carries over many of the same themes found in Save The Last Dance) and that movie did horrible. I don't know how much one is willing to contribute to coinscidence, when "O" is the film with the lead actor being a black male. So I honestly don't know. I don't think Storm and T'Challa would have a shot in hell up against most other films of hte same genre.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think focusing on an African aspect would really do that film any kind of justice. As a black man it pains me to say it, but it is true. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, The Honey Mooners, Beauty Shop etc etc. All movies with all black casts. Each of those movies were box office failures. I thought (for its better parts) that Diary of a Mad Black Woman was a fairly strong film. Not Oscar material, but really strong. But like the rest, it floundered. There is no way to convince the American masses to go see an all black super hero film set in Africa. People pitched a fit just because Halle Berry played Catwoman, who is a traditionally white female. I don't think people could handle Storm and T'Challa (no less a person named T'Challa) in Africa. The villains they would battle there would also be limiting. If they did a film about the two, it would be better to keep them in New York like they have been. T'Challa is (or at least was) an Avenger.

That puts them back in the convenience of NY. Perhaps a movie focusing on two super heroes in love, but with different super hero goals, would be a better choice. They could perhaps even turn Storm into an adventurer, who joins T'Challa from time to time. Then, by explaining T'Challa's royalty and blood right to the Black Panther legacy, they could then explain Storm and how she once lived in Africa and was a different kind of royal. A false royalty found in false divinity. It gives American audiences a relatable location, and keeps the rogues gallery more open, since most of Marvel's characters live in New York.
I disagree. While I don't think there should be a Storm solo film, location & skin color have nothing to do with it. And Halle Barry didn't play Catwoman; she played CINO. She didn't play Selina Kyle in Gotham City. The uproar was b/c the movie was crap, not because of her color. Same goes for the Honeymooners. Like many of the TV-to-film adaptations of the past year, it was just plain unwanted. (I personally don't wanna see a guy calling himself Ralph Kramden, who never threatens his wife.) And for that matter, the public has thus far embraced a black Pete Ross, Kingpin, (moreso than not) Alicia Masters, Harvey Dent, Agent J-not to mention a Chinese Lana Lang, a British Magneto, a Scottish Nightcrawler &, most recently, a Welsh Batman!
Give people a good movie & they'll come. To say that these "racial barriers" can't be overcome is like saying we should just stick to movies like "Soul Plane", b/c that's all that Black people can ever hope for.

[Arach Knight]

I never said they can't be over come. It is a demographic thing. Obviously movies like Soul Food, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Jungle Fever, Malcom X, Do The Right Thing, Higher Learning etc etc...all succeed when compared with movies like Honeymooners, Soul Plane, Beauty Shop etc etc. But they cater to a different demographic. Comics have done some amazing things, but using a comic movie to break new ground isn't going to happen. And if you notice, I simply said having the film be in Africa, with the two of them, isn't going to work. I clearly offered a remedy that put the same two black characters, in a familar back drop (New York). So they can do a movie with the two of them...but it would fail if it were set in New York. I would wager dollars to pecos that the movie would gross 3 times as much money, were it based around their X-Man/Avenger lives, rather than limiting their rogue gallery and scenery, to Africa. And for the record, I just want it to be known that I now officially abhor the term "CINO" Not to your personal fault though Chris. It is just one of those irksome internet acronyms like "lol" or "afk" that just get to me...

[Nathaniel_Essex]

I'd be tempted to say do a "Heroes For Hire" movie, but someone will say that having a black super hero only doing it for the loot would be degrading and racist. As for the black panther and storm thing, i'd say why mix them to start? Storm has a fantastic story, from losing her parents, to her being trained as a thief, to becoming worshipped as a goddess. thats more than enough for 1 film. i'm not too knowlageable on black panther, but i'm guessing the same can be said for him.

[comic book girl]

As an african american male i was immediately drawn to storm.Mostly due to the fact that not only was she one of few black superheros she was a female, who lead a team and was incredibly powerful.In those days comic book women were screaming for their lovers to come save them and most black characters spoke horrible ebonics but storm was none of those things.while i did find a rich and compelling character in storm i found that as time went on she started heavily lacking her ethnicity. she would no longer wear her african beads, jewells or cloth she wouldn't even mention her homeland.You would think as the only black mutant on the team she was on she would be shown to deal with some racism but we never saw that.it was like the ethnicity in storm was sucked dry turning her personality into that of a mild mannered white woman [no offense].When storms hair became braided i was begining to think that maybe the old storm would return to me and while pieces of her appear once and awhile the old ororo appears to be dead.As for my opinions on x2 storm she doesn't even deserve to be called storm she lacks ANY substance and has been nothing but a device used to enhance OTHER characters personalities and not her own.Truth be told this isn't the first time, storm was given the exact same crappy treatment in x-men evolution. all the other x-men were made younger while storm was turned into a granny that would appear once and while to do magic tricks for the kiddies then disappear. the producers of x-men evolution commented that they never really got storms character but i'm sure the split personality freak rogue and the psychotic loving mother/babbling psycho mystique's personality were so much easier to understand [not sarcasm]. Basicly The only way they can possibly redeem storm in x3 in my eyes is put back that tragic origin scene of hers give her some god damn character development give her a civilian outfit that represents her deep ties to africa like comic storm use to do and for the love of god make her FLY! they call her a weatherwitch for a reason!

Hallelujah. Finally someone says it.

[Chris Wallace]

I never said they can't be over come. It is a demographic thing. Obviously movies like Soul Food, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Jungle Fever, Malcom X, Do The Right Thing, Higher Learning etc etc...all succeed when compared with movies like Honeymooners, Soul Plane, Beauty Shop etc etc. But they cater to a different demographic. Comics have done some amazing things, but using a comic movie to break new ground isn't going to happen. And if you notice, I simply said having the film be in Africa, with the two of them, isn't going to work. I clearly offered a remedy that put the same two black characters, in a familar back drop (New York). So they can do a movie with the two of them...but it would fail if it were set in New York. I would wager dollars to pecos that the movie would gross 3 times as much money, were it based around their X-Man/Avenger lives, rather than limiting their rogue gallery and scenery, to Africa. And for the record, I just want it to be known that I now officially abhor the term "CINO" Not to your personal fault though Chris. It is just one of those irksome internet acronyms like "lol" or "afk" that just get to me...
The Black Panther/Storm movie isn't going to happen. A Black Panther solo film would be a marketing disaster if aimed at just one demographic. And breaking nwe ground w/a comic film can happen. What do you think the first "Batman" did?
And I call Patience Phillips "CINO" b/c I refuse to call her "Catwoman". She's not Catwoman by any definition other than her name.

[X-Maniac]

Good arguments here, great thread.

The things that come to my mind at this late hour are:

1) When i first watched X1, I thought Storm was 'different' but fine - she was shorter, her powers were toned down, she had her moments - some good, some not as good. She was not the regal Amazonian woman of the comics, but maybe that was difficult to achieve...or maybe they just didn't want that image...maybe the scriptwriters didn't see her that way when they wrote the story, maybe they thought it was something people would not relate to. I've watched both X-movies dozens of times and although Storm is often under-utilised, she doesn't seem as bad as people often say, and neither is Halle in that role. The characterisation was a bit 'off', and we hope for a better portrayal in X3, but it's always going to be hard to service so many characters properly.

2) Halle's portrayal of a black superhero in Catwoman didn't work, everyone knows this. I had no problem with their being another Catwoman who was black, but they should somehow have linked it much more strongly to the source material. Patience Phillips should have been connected somehow to Selina Kyle..somehow the mantle of Catwoman was passed from one to another. The movie itself has some good moments (the opening sequence flashing back through the history of cat worship and cat folklore stands out, some of the fight sequences) and some crap moments (Patience rolling catnip over her face, Patience making a big thing out of having her hair done).

3) Storm is a difficult character. Although black, she has white hair and blue eyes, she is not a typical African-American and she is not a neck-rolling, finger-snapping ghetto sista type. This makes her difficult to aim at a specific audience. The ghetto/rap culture probably don't relate to her, and most white cultures wouldn't relate to her. They've often not known how to write the character (in comics or movies) and i sometimes wonder if that's why she became this aloof vision of serenity - it was an excuse that meant they didn't have to bother giving her depth.

4) Female superhero movies are difficult --- the genre is very male. Wonder Woman may work because of the iconic status provided largely by Lynda Carter. However, Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider has been successful as a movie female superhero (not of comicbook origin) - lots of action, some tongue-in-cheek parts (Asked 'Are we going to save the world again?', Lara answers: 'Absolutely!), some brilliant mystical/supernatural storylines. Elektra failed with its poor characterisation and boring, non-epic storyline.

5) I'm not sure of a Storm solo movie... it could work, it could be a disaster, people may be wary after Catwoman. Linking it in with Black Panther and his African underground super-city could be a very good move. Setting it entirely in Africa wouldn't work, making it an entirely black movie probably wouldn't work. Focusing only on Storm might not work. Should we see Halle again? Could she pull it off? X3 will give us more clues about how the profile of Storm has been raised. I'd love to see a movie in which Storm is linked in with T'Challa and possibly Forge (he could be the one behind Black Panther's hi-tech city).

I'll add/clarify thoughts later after a good night's sleep!

[OutcryX]

Good arguments here, great thread.


:up: :up: :) Agreed:) :up: :up:

I'm not sure of a Storm solo movie... it could work, it could be a disaster, people may be wary after Catwoman. Linking it in with Black Panther and his African underground super-city could be a very good move. Setting it entirely in Africa wouldn't work, making it an entirely black movie probably wouldn't work. Focusing only on Storm might not work. Should we see Halle again? Could she pull it off? X3 will give us more clues about how the profile of Storm has been raised. I'd love to see a movie in which Storm is linked in with T'Challa and possibly Forge (he could be the one behind Black Panther's hi-tech city).

I'll add/clarify thoughts later after a good night's sleep!


Setting it in Africa WOULD work. Especially if it will be in T'Challa's advanced city. Taking the characters out of their settings doesnt work. Didn't for Punisher at least. Elektra either. An all black cast would NOT work for it to have broad appeal. There would have to be other ethnicities..particularly WHITE people in order to get large amounts of butt in seats. That and Halle could pull off a solo Storm movie....i wouldnt want it to happen though. She was good...for the X-men films, but let an actress that is more similar in appearance to Storm be the one who is burned into our retenas and consciousness as the definitive image of Storm in the hollywood history. That and I kinda like Storm with Black Panther...she shouldnt have to give up being an X-man to be with him tho. Then again i also like her with Forge....but i kinda like him with Mystique...so confusing!

[Chris Wallace]

Agreed overall. But there doesn't HAVE to be an all-black cast. There's White Wolf. There's Klaw. There's Everett Ross. All of them have a place in the story. Bringing BP to NY just makes him another Batman. Keep him in his element. And Arach Knight-all your posts about including Storm & including the Avengers (neither of which can be done) suggest that he hasn't the appeal to cut it on his own. I do not agree. Didn't his first MK comic do well? Didn't the first ish of the current series practically FLY off the shelves? There is a market; you just have to find a way to tap into it.

[Arach Knight]

1)I didn't say the movie would have to involve the other Avengers. I simply said that Black Panther should return to NYC if he is going to be in a movie where it is just him and Storm. It would be dumb if he arbitrarily came back...so having him return because of the Avengers, just makes sense.

2) Black Panther isn't strong enough on his own. His comic book sales are terrible and have been terrible from the start. His book couldn't even muster 70k initially. It has been on a decline since issue 1.

Feb 05 Black Panther #1 - 69,930
Mar 05 Black Panther #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
Apr 05 Black Panther #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)
May 05 Black Panther #4 - 40,804 ( -9.2%)
Jun 05 Black Panther #5 - 37,401 ( -8.1%)
Jul 05 Black Panther #6 - 35,256 ( -5.7%)
6 mnth ( n/a )
1 year ( n/a )
2 year (+123.5%)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe/msg/b92ae264cb569862?hl=en

I mean....it could be doing worst...but it is number 58 out of 100. So it isn't like the book is that popular. It isn't even in the top 30. It can't be more obvious that Black Panther isn't a very viable book...and would be an even less viable movie, if they keep T'Challa in Africa. I didn't see people lining up to see Hotel Rwanda...so I wouldn't expect T'Challa to be any more of a winner with the crowd.

[X-Maniac]

Well, a comic with low sales doesn't mean he's a poor character, it just means the writing and stories are poor. The concept of an African from a secret advanced civilisation with strength derived partly from a herb and weaponry based on vibranium is something that could work really well.

If in a movie, they may have to be careful about Black Panther seeming to be a hybrid of Batman, Catwoman and Wolverine (comparisons with his vibranium suit and 'anti-metal' claws), but the idea of an advanced civilisation beneath an African village would work great on film.

It would need an epic storyline, something big and powerful. T'Challa comes to America to find Storm and Forge to save the dying civilisation of Wakanda whose technology has been stolen by a US terror group to bring about mass destruction.

[spider-jide]

1)
2) Black Panther isn't strong enough on his own. His comic book sales are terrible and have been terrible from the start. His book couldn't even muster 70k initially. It has been on a decline since issue 1.

Feb 05 Black Panther #1 - 69,930
Mar 05 Black Panther #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
Apr 05 Black Panther #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)
May 05 Black Panther #4 - 40,804 ( -9.2%)
Jun 05 Black Panther #5 - 37,401 ( -8.1%)
Jul 05 Black Panther #6 - 35,256 ( -5.7%)
6 mnth ( n/a )
1 year ( n/a )
2 year (+123.5%)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe/msg/b92ae264cb569862?hl=en

I mean....it could be doing worst...but it is number 58 out of 100. So it isn't like the book is that popular. It isn't even in the top 30. It can't be more obvious that Black Panther isn't a very viable book...and would be an even less viable movie, if they keep T'Challa in Africa. I didn't see people lining up to see Hotel Rwanda...so I wouldn't expect T'Challa to be any more of a winner with the crowd.

First of all, you cant compare hotel Rwanda to a black panther movie, they're 2 completely different movies, not to mention the former being quite depressing.

As for the BP comics doing bad sales figures, so what?? Overall Marvel havn't been doing that great in general. Anybody who has an understanding of BP knows that it is clear for a good enough movie to me made based on the character. Hire a decent scriptwriter and director and there shouldn't be any problems. BP's character and premise is different and challenges teh perceptions of audiences and any stereotypical views one may have of Africa. I dont feel like highlighting what is so special about wakanda and BP himself but to sa he's not strong enough o carry a movie is something I completely disagree with, BP is more than capable and if done right, his movie could end up being better than most of Marvel's better movies and there aren't many of those I might add.

[Bluefire]

Hallelujah. Finally someone says it.


glad some agrees with me.:) oh, and i made a mistake on that part where i put [not sarcasm] i was being VERY sarcastic regarding the so called "basic" personalities of those x-men i mentioned.

[Lightning Strykez!]

It would need an epic storyline, something big and powerful. T'Challa comes to America to find Storm and Forge to save the dying civilisation of Wakanda whose technology has been stolen by a US terror group to bring about mass destruction.

Melikes that concept... :up:

[Arach Knight]

Did I say Black Panther had bad writing? I just said he is an unpopular character. I backed this up by showing that his books are not fairing so well. Also, I don't know where you've been, but for the past three months, Marvel has been kicking DC's ass. Not only has Marvel been selling more books, they have been making more money. Marvel also has more books in the top 20. Though the number one bok has bounced between DC and Marvel (currently DC hold the position thanks to All Star Batman & Robin), Marvel has still been the king of books sold and dollars made.

Anyways, I personally would love to see a Black Panther movie. With the Avengers, or solo, I would see it. I am an African American male. As stereotypical as it sounds, I don't think the black community does enough or has enough, to make a positive and uplifting image for itself. We are the lowest rank in this countries academid system. We have the highest teen pregnancy rate. We have the highest number of people 21 and below, in prison (though I could chalk some of that up to racism). I have no problem with seeing a black character being portrayed as something more than another character in a movie like Belly (though I really like that movie). However, despite my best hopes, I know society. you can be as ignorant to reality as you want about what will and won't work, but i've seen enough of the worlds bad side to know what's real.

His name is T'Challa, he is an African Prince and his name is Black Panther. Right off the bat, people will b expecting him to be in a loin cloth, herding animals in a jungle (all stereotype, since nobody knows how beautiful African cities truly are). Then, you have the fact that his name is Black Panther. Granted Stan Lee and Kirby created him before Huey P. Newton ever formed the Black Panther Party for Self Defense, most people won't, know that. So now he is going to seem like a black militant character, thus alienating an audience. So you can pretend like we live in some happy go lucky world where people are smarter than i'm giving them credit for. In the mean time, i'll stick to the reality of it all. T'Challa, on his own, in Africa=box office mediocrity at best.

[spider-jide]

Did I say Black Panther had bad writing? I just said he is an unpopular character. I backed this up by showing that his books are not fairing so well. Also, I don't know where you've been, but for the past three months, Marvel has been kicking DC's ass. Not only has Marvel been selling more books, they have been making more money. Marvel also has more books in the top 20. Though the number one bok has bounced between DC and Marvel (currently DC hold the position thanks to All Star Batman & Robin), Marvel has still been the king of books sold and dollars made.

Did you say BP had bad writing? No but you most definately implied it. You said he's weak on is own,how so? Clearly it boils down to the writing not being as good compared to another comic that may sell better. Then you said he's an unpopular character, well if he's so unpopular, why? He's been around for longer than most, could it be because the writing isn't as good?

So? Whats your point? Marvel's been making more money than DC? And? The fact still remains that regardless of how well Marvel are doing as opposed to DC, their standard of story telling hasn't been that great at all. I'm not impresed by you measuring Marvel upto DC because I dont care about DC, I care about Marvel and as is stands, Marvel are barely entertaining me these days.

Anyways, I personally would love to see a Black Panther movie. With the Avengers, or solo, I would see it. I am an African American male. As stereotypical as it sounds, I don't think the black community does enough or has enough, to make a positive and uplifting image for itself.

What are you talking about? What does improving on the black community have to do with creating an entertaining BP movie? You do realise nobody is expecting spider-man type figures at the BO? You do realise that dont you? So what has this got to do with creating a generally good and entertaing movie that is able to make back its money and of course a profit?

We are the lowest rank in this countries academid system. We have the highest teen pregnancy rate. We have the highest number of people 21 and below, in prison (though I could chalk some of that up to racism). I have no problem with seeing a black character being portrayed as something more than another character in a movie like Belly (though I really like that movie). However, despite my best hopes, I know society. you can be as ignorant to reality as you want about what will and won't work, but i've seen enough of the worlds bad side to know what's real.

Somebody has clearly crapped on your dougnut. Thanks for the crash course on black community stats but it is completely unecessary and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. With that said, all the stats you mentioned, you feel that this will hinder from a good and sucessful BP movie? Lol, ok whatever, "Mr I'm black too btw" if anyone is comming off as ignorant, its you.

His name is T'Challa, he is an African Prince and his name is Black Panther. Right off the bat, people will b expecting him to be in a loin cloth, herding animals in a jungle (all stereotype, since nobody knows how beautiful African cities truly are).

You dont know what people will be expecting. People who are aware of the character no otherwise and guess what, there's such a thing called marketing. What you should be discussing is how the studio making this movie needs to focus on the right vision for this movie and adhereing to the source material so not only will the movie be good but they can market the movie effectively, giving people a taste of what the movie and the character involved is about.
Your stance and perception of society is accutare to a degree but is entirely your own point of view. Regardless of the stats you posted, believe it or not there are plenty of educated black people out there who aren't criminals or act out roles of being bums and the decay of society. Either way, like I said before, your stats have no bearing on producing an entertaining BP movie.


Then, you have the fact that his name is Black Panther. Granted Stan Lee and Kirby created him before Huey P. Newton ever formed the Black Panther Party for Self Defense, most people won't, know that.

Thats one of the key factors of marketing, to inform.

So now he is going to seem like a black militant character, thus alienating an audience. So you can pretend like we live in some happy go lucky world where people are smarter than i'm giving them credit for. In the mean time, i'll stick to the reality of it all. T'Challa, on his own, in Africa=box office mediocrity at best.

This last part of your post makes you look like a pre-judging, ignorant "realist". You clearly have too much information at your disposal but dont know how to process and use it under the right terms.

[Neto Magnus]

Hey, interesting essay, Lighty!

and sorry guys for not reading all the replies.(i'm on doody dial-up right now)

The rumored Storm movie Spin-off: Marvel's answer to a DC Wonder Woman film?Honestly, I would love to see a Storm movie. I mean, she's one of my favorite X-men or better yet one of my favorite female characters ever. But as for Helle Berry...I don't know. It's not that she's a bad actress, I mean she's beautiful but it's just that she doesn't have that spark or strong presence to be a super hero. She kinda brings out the 'diva' or 'ghetto-ness' in some of her movies. Maybe that's why that Jinx movie never got anywhere. I dunno, it all really depends on how well she does and redeems herself in X3. If anything, I think the rumored 3rd spin-off would be better suited for a Fox tv series. A show starring Patrick Stewart and the school. Kinda like the O.C. meets Smallville. And cast a bunch of hot teenagers and the ratings will go through the roof. And and...Gambit can be the main character. You know, the new kid in town.

What realistic obstacles lie in the way of these productions? I don't think that there are that many obstacles into making black superhero films just as long as its the positive black ppl making them. Like for example, John Singleton who is one of my fav filmmakers and who is making the Luke Cage movie. Now we all know that it's gonna be a 'hip hop' movie but I hope that they don't have to 'dumb' it down so the young audience can enjoy it. I think it woulda been better if that movie actually took place in the 70s and 80s to give it more distance from other comic movies. Sorta pay homage to the blaxploitation films. But whatever, if the Cage movie is half as good as Four Brothers, then thats progress.

The rumored X3 relationship between Storm & Wolverine: Opening doors or closing them?I don't quite understand what you mean by that. I don't think interracial banging is that controversial anymore. If anything I really don't see that 'relationship' going anywhere. I think that ROLO is just gonna have one night of hot, 'wet' & angry-I-haven't-been-laid-in-awhile-sex. It's probably just another Fox gimmick(sp?) to draw more audiences. I bet Halle and Hugh will be the main marketing ploy too.

Do you believe that Halle Berry and Wesley Snipes are unfairly singled out by fanboys for their complaints for better treatment by Hollywood? For who's complaints? The actor's or fanboys'? Either way I think the 'race card' will always be an played on minority actors.

Are current black actors/superheroes overshadowed by their co-stars? :confused: hmm...I guess it depends on the story or context. If it's a movie like 'Braveheart' then yes. If it's a movie liek 'Glory' then no.

What do you think the future holds for these characters in comics, video games, toys, film and other franchises? Well, that's a tough question. Racism will ALWAYS exist because it is human nature. But as far as the mainstream media, it has changed for the good over the years but theres one thing I fear...that is: it might go the wrong way. I don't want to get into detail because I'd be writing all night about this subject but I can sum it all up into two words and you can ponder and judge for yourselves..."JIGGY" & "IZZLE".
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3773/snl20tl.jpg


.

[tamron]

BP's current sales have been down b/c the current series is a psuedo-reboot to the character. It always takes a little while to find a character's voice and hook an audience when you do that.

Sales were very solid during the Christopher Priest run, which IMHO, should be the basis of a BP script. He really made T'Challa a player, emphasizing the fact that he's the leader of a country first, superhero second. To me, a good BP movie would be kind of like a Tom Clancy novel, a superhero film with an emphasis on politics. That's essential, because it's what makes BP different from any other superhero.

I just hope it's not an origin movie. They should just start with T'Challa in play, ruling Wakanda.

[Arach Knight]

Overall Marvel havn't been doing that great in general

So? Whats your point? Marvel's been making more money than DC?

I believe you answered your own question in your previous statement. You brought up Marvel's status as a comapny, and fact of the matter is that they are the number one comic book publisher in market share and dollars made. If you didn't want to have an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question.


Did you say BP had bad writing? No but you most definately implied it.

I implied it? Really now? Because from where i'm sitting, it seems like I infered exactly what the hell I said, and nothing else. I said the book has poor sales. There are a myriad of reasons as to why that could be the case, but I made no such mention of why. I simply said that the book IS selling poorly. And considering that I provided the figurs to back it, you have no further argument. You are just putting words in my mouth to suit your purpose. So don't go saying what I implied. I bluntly said, Black Panther's book has been on a decline. This is indicative of a lack of popularity. Neither of my statements is untrue. So get off it please...


-So you expect Marvel to come up with a magical campaign that shows the difference between their Black Panther, which came first, and a civil rights group? Nothing says stupid like piss off an entire community. "Hey two Jewish guys made this character before Huey P. Newton ever made up his Black Panther party. We're original. Who cares about the trials and tribulations of Fred Hampton and Huey P. Newton...we were first" yeah...I don't see that bowling over well. And thank God for Marvel, you aren't in charge of anything they do. It would be a marketing debacle to even attempt to approach this little historical tidbit.

-Maybe you aren't black Spider-Jide. But I am. I get tired of us only being rappers, thugs or saved from a horrible life in the ghetto by some saint who swoops in to make life better. Black's are rarely portrayed as strong characters. That is how I think Black Panther could be helpful. He is one of the few mainstream heroes (well sort of mainstream) that are even Black or African. I like to see positive reinforcment. And I think Black Panther could do that under the right circumstances. Also, if I were you, I would avoid trying to trivialize my ethnicitiy with lame "oh i'm black too btw" statements. That is perhaps the most ignornat thing i've seen stated in this thread. And last time I checked, this thread was about black characters and their marketability. If you can't deal, then don't be here.

-Spider-Jide, I typically don't have any problem with you. We are both Spidey fans....and comic readers. That gives us at least a little positive starting ground. But I don't need your crap with you trying to come insult me and make assertions that are made on a false basis. If you have a problem with me, more power to you. But don't be belligerent and attack me out of the blue. I'm simply providing my opinion on things. I'm also pointing out facts. If you don't think people have a poor perception of black people in this world, I kindly direct you to hurricane Katraina. All of the stories that show black survivors, use the word "looting" where as white people are simply "looking for food." Get over it. People are racists and stereotypical in their view on life. I don't think there is much else to be said on the subject matter.

[spider-jide]

I believe you answered your own question in your previous statement. You brought up Marvel's status as a comapny, and fact of the matter is that they are the number one comic book publisher in market share and dollars made. If you didn't want to have an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question.




I implied it? Really now? Because from where i'm sitting, it seems like I infered exactly what the hell I said, and nothing else. I said the book has poor sales. There are a myriad of reasons as to why that could be the case, but I made no such mention of why. I simply said that the book IS selling poorly. And considering that I provided the figurs to back it, you have no further argument. You are just putting words in my mouth to suit your purpose. So don't go saying what I implied. I bluntly said, Black Panther's book has been on a decline. This is indicative of a lack of popularity. Neither of my statements is untrue. So get off it please...


-So you expect Marvel to come up with a magical campaign that shows the difference between their Black Panther, which came first, and a civil rights group? Nothing says stupid like piss off an entire community. "Hey two Jewish guys made this character before Huey P. Newton ever made up his Black Panther party. We're original. Who cares about the trials and tribulations of Fred Hampton and Huey P. Newton...we were first" yeah...I don't see that bowling over well. And thank God for Marvel, you aren't in charge of anything they do. It would be a marketing debacle to even attempt to approach this little historical tidbit.

-Maybe you aren't black Spider-Jide. But I am. I get tired of us only being rappers, thugs or saved from a horrible life in the ghetto by some saint who swoops in to make life better. Black's are rarely portrayed as strong characters. That is how I think Black Panther could be helpful. He is one of the few mainstream heroes (well sort of mainstream) that are even Black or African. I like to see positive reinforcment. And I think Black Panther could do that under the right circumstances. Also, if I were you, I would avoid trying to trivialize my ethnicitiy with lame "oh i'm black too btw" statements. That is perhaps the most ignornat thing i've seen stated in this thread. And last time I checked, this thread was about black characters and their marketability. If you can't deal, then don't be here.

-Spider-Jide, I typically don't have any problem with you. We are both Spidey fans....and comic readers. That gives us at least a little positive starting ground. But I don't need your crap with you trying to come insult me and make assertions that are made on a false basis. If you have a problem with me, more power to you. But don't be belligerent and attack me out of the blue. I'm simply providing my opinion on things. I'm also pointing out facts. If you don't think people have a poor perception of black people in this world, I kindly direct you to hurricane Katraina. All of the stories that show black survivors, use the word "looting" where as white people are simply "looking for food." Get over it. People are racists and stereotypical in their view on life. I don't think there is much else to be said on the subject matter.

For the record, I am black and secodly, it wasn't my intetion to purposely insult you, if I did, my bad. I'd like to adhere to lightning's wishes and keep things civil. I agree with you on the general perception of how black people are portrayed and this whole katrina incident as you mentioned is a primary example that confirms such perceptions. However, its my belief that a good enough and entertaining BP movie can be made with the right care and handeling. As for the BP group, I wasn't saying the marketing for the movie should deliberately contrast and diffrenciate itself from the BP party so blatantly, I meant that when advertising/marketing the movie they should emphasise who/what BP is about, his story and mythos. The BP group doesn't have to be mentioned at all. If done right and handled with care, audiences would/should understand that this movie will have nothing to do wih the BP group.

[Arach Knight]

For the record, I am black and secodly, it wasn't my intetion to purposely insult you, if I did, my bad. I'd like to adhere to lightning's wishes and keep things civil. I agree with you on the general perception of how black people are portrayed and this whole katrina incident as you mentioned is a primary example that confirms such perceptions. However, its my belief that a good enough and entertaining BP movie can be made with the right care and handeling. As for the BP group, I wasn't saying the marketing for the movie should deliberately contrast and diffrenciate itself from the BP party so blatantly, I meant that when advertising/marketing the movie they should emphasise who/what BP is about, his story and mythos. The BP group doesn't have to be mentioned at all. If done right and handled with care, audiences would/should understand that this movie will have nothing to do wih the BP group.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to give such a knee jerk reaction. I mean, this is an open discussion and opinions are likely to clash. I just didn't like being targeted for harassment because of my opinion. Like I said, i'd love to see a Black Panther movie...they would just have to do it very well for any kind of marketable success....

[X-Maniac]

It would need an epic storyline, something big and powerful. T'Challa comes to America to find Storm and Forge to save the dying civilisation of Wakanda whose technology has been stolen by a US terror group to bring about mass destruction.

The more i think about it, the more I love my own idea. It includes Africa, but also includes the required US cities to make it relate to most people's everyday lives. Setting it entirely in Africa would not work, in my view.

[X-Maniac]

The one thing that bugs me is a title for the movie. I think it should have a wider title than the name of one character like Storm or Black Panther.

Halle's role and performance in X3 would be an indication of whether she would be the right person to include.

[terry78]

If it's just Black Panther, Black Panther should suit it just fine. If they can create a big fan base for him by opening up a new series, and at least getting some merchandising out there treating it like a blockbuster a la Batman, I think it'd have a shot.

[Diamondhead]

All I can say is that black men and black women needs to get together more than ever!

It wasn’t so long ago that white men was raping black women and lynch the black men for having whistling at a white woman.

The white man just hasn’t paid enough due for their mistreatment of the black race yet


And now that black women are reaching and striving for a better place in societies
It is simply not the time for the white men to embark on a campaign teaching the black women to be with them instead
Especially that black men needs the support of their strong black women more than ever.

Therefore I think it was way too soon for Hollywood to come out with movies such as “guess who”. It was simply way too soon for that.

Black men needs to do their best to be with their black women and not so willingly to hand over their black sisters to the white man just in the name of being “cool”.
Because white men aren’t like that at all, and they still have never agree to see their women with any other race than Caucasian men only.

This huge campaign that you see on the media nowadays teaching black women to be with white men instead, is not helping the black community’s relation at all
And some black women are aiding and abating, even turning out to be traitor to their race by saying “black men just aren’t good enough for them”
Just like rumor has it quoted by Serena Williams!

The point is that black people needs to be together in other to grow stronger.
Getting the most popular hero or heroin at marvel to end up with anything other than their own race is not the way to go
Especially when there are not even enough of them to go around in the first place.

[tamron]

And some black women are aiding and abating, even turning out to be traitor to their race by saying “black men just aren’t good enough for them”
Just like rumor has it quoted by Serena Williams!


Serena never said that. It was a lie, she issued a press release denying it as soon as that started. She supposedly said it on a tv show, but there's no tape of it, anywhere. But some black women, like Maia Campbell, have said they don't date brothas. Just felt the need to defend Serena, b/c she's not one of them.

[Minisinoo]

Hmmm.

The very title of this thread "Black Knights" contrasted with it's subtitle, "Marvel's Mutants of Color" made me raise my eyebrows. Marvel has "mutants of color" who aren't black, y'know. ;) The Buckskin curtain exists, too, and is, if possible, even worse.

Can any of you name ten top black American actors?

Yes, of course you can. So can I, and I'm not black.

Can any of you name ten top American Indian actors without running to Google?

I didn't think so. Even I'd have trouble with that, without resorting to naming Canadians -- even though I'm Indian.

We're the invisible minority in the U.S. (less so in Canada), though Hollywood was built on Indian land. Movies about Indians are more likely to be Dances With Wolves than Smoke Signals, but if you want to know what we're like today, you need to see the latter, not the former.

This in NO way is to say that blacks are fairly treated. They're not. But they're not alone in being overlooked, stereotyped and shoved into the background. ;) Marvel has created five Indian mutants (John and Jimmy Proudstar, Dani Moonstar, Forge and Shaman), plus a few others that have floated in and out. None of them have been handled much better. And none of them showed up as a named character in an X-Man film. (The native girl in Xavier's office in X1 may have been meant to be Dani, but she wasn't listed in the credits.)

So in fighting for fair and varied representation of black characters, don't forget the rest of the "mutants of color," 'kay? :eek:

[Arach Knight]

That is a very well raised point that holds a lot of truth. Native Americans among one of the chiefly ill treated races historically (by my measure, it is blacks, jews, native americans and mexicans....not in any specific order). There are plenty of other minorities out there. The struggle between black and white or black and wrong....just happens to be a globally well known struggle. But this is a thread about minorities. Or rather, "mutants of color" so I don't see why conversation about other minorities would be unacceptable.

[terry78]

Though I think Lightning chose black mutants specifically when he started the thread, but it could be expanded upon most definitely.

[X-Maniac]

Hmmm.

The very title of this thread "Black Knights" contrasted with it's subtitle, "Marvel's Mutants of Color" made me raise my eyebrows. Marvel has "mutants of color" who aren't black, y'know. ;) The Buckskin curtain exists, too, and is, if possible, even worse.

Can any of you name ten top black American actors?

Yes, of course you can. So can I, and I'm not black.

Can any of you name ten top American Indian actors without running to Google?

I didn't think so. Even I'd have trouble with that, without resorting to naming Canadians -- even though I'm Indian.

We're the invisible minority in the U.S. (less so in Canada), though Hollywood was built on Indian land. Movies about Indians are more likely to be Dances With Wolves than Smoke Signals, but if you want to know what we're like today, you need to see the latter, not the former.

This in NO way is to say that blacks are fairly treated. They're not. But they're not alone in being overlooked, stereotyped and shoved into the background. ;) Marvel has created five Indian mutants (John and Jimmy Proudstar, Dani Moonstar, Forge and Shaman), plus a few others that have floated in and out. None of them have been handled much better. And none of them showed up as a named character in an X-Man film. (The native girl in Xavier's office in X1 may have been meant to be Dani, but she wasn't listed in the credits.)

So in fighting for fair and varied representation of black characters, don't forget the rest of the "mutants of color," 'kay? :eek:

I think the general 'trigger' for this thread was the Halle-hating phenomenon that has happened on these boards, so it was focused primarily on black people.

But, yes, the American Indians are also worth of discussion. By the way, Shaman is not a mutant, he is quite literally a shaman who has magical powers. Talisman is one you didn't mention - i believe she was a mutant, whose power was to tap into environmental magical energies that existed naturally around her. Thunderbird was a good character in the comics, though he didn't last long. The current Thunderbird isn't even an American Indian, he's from Nepal and has fire powers so the codename they used for him is very inappropriate.

[OutcryX]

Risque is/was Native American. cool character that was Proudstar's girlfriend...until they killed her

[terry78]

They also killed off Sunfire in Exiles.

[OutcryX]

They also killed off Sunfire in Exiles.

They...killed...Sunfire...AGAIN!?!?! Twice in 6 months, thats gotta be a record

[X-Maniac]

They also killed off Sunfire in Exiles.

What does the Japanese mutant Sunfire have to do with all this?????

[Lightning Strykez!]

Hmmm.

The very title of this thread "Black Knights" contrasted with it's subtitle, "Marvel's Mutants of Color" made me raise my eyebrows. Marvel has "mutants of color" who aren't black, y'know. ;) The Buckskin curtain exists, too, and is, if possible, even worse.

Can any of you name ten top black American actors?

Yes, of course you can. So can I, and I'm not black.

Can any of you name ten top American Indian actors without running to Google?

I didn't think so. Even I'd have trouble with that, without resorting to naming Canadians -- even though I'm Indian.

We're the invisible minority in the U.S. (less so in Canada), though Hollywood was built on Indian land. Movies about Indians are more likely to be Dances With Wolves than Smoke Signals, but if you want to know what we're like today, you need to see the latter, not the former.

This in NO way is to say that blacks are fairly treated. They're not. But they're not alone in being overlooked, stereotyped and shoved into the background. ;) Marvel has created five Indian mutants (John and Jimmy Proudstar, Dani Moonstar, Forge and Shaman), plus a few others that have floated in and out. None of them have been handled much better. And none of them showed up as a named character in an X-Man film. (The native girl in Xavier's office in X1 may have been meant to be Dani, but she wasn't listed in the credits.)

So in fighting for fair and varied representation of black characters, don't forget the rest of the "mutants of color," 'kay? :eek:

Goodmorning Minisinoo,

As someone who's father is white and mother's black/cuban I'm pretty well versed in what it means to be a "man of colour". :cool:

That said, the term "Black Knights" was actually meant to be a metaphor of sorts and not to be taken literally. That is why the subtitle mentions "Mutants Of Color"--which means that the discussion is meant to expand to all non-caucasian cultures.

In fact, the list of users invited to this discussion via PM was comprised of people from different backgrounds and countries, so it was never meant to strictly focus on the "Black" race per se, since the plight we face is mirrored in the treatment of other cultures. In the very first post, other mutants of different races were alluded to, i.e. Cecilia Reyes who is of Spanish descent.

So by all means--feel free to expand the conversation to other minorities as long as it pertains to the general topic at hand. I'd love to see a discussion developed on Moonstar, Forge in this thread here, and others as they too have been sorely neglected by Hollywood.

Thanks....

Caliph

[terry78]

What does the Japanese mutant Sunfire have to do with all this?????
She was a mutant of color, her character wasn't all that developed, and she was written out of the series, similar to her earlier male counterpart, that's what.

[megawatt]

A quick note...a long project at work plus a long Labor Day holiday = latecomer to this thread. With that said I apologize if I repeat something that someone else has said previously because I skimmed through the posts but did not read all of them as throughly as I normally do.

I have ranted against the nit-picking fanboys who sometimes run rabid on this board but truth be told, they are sometimes the last defense against Hollywood dumbasses who would ruin one comic book character after another. Since Storm is my favorite comic book character, I will use her as an example. I could overlook the blue eyes/contact issue and I really was disappointed with Halle's weak then non existent accent in the films. That being said, one of the problems that I saw in the X-films is that
the writer/director either did not know the character or chose to ignore her background completely. I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.

She is the earth mother, loving and giving. I like that part of her character but tell me how in the hell a woman so beautiful and so giving couldn't buy a seemingly happy relationship until recently (in the comics). Forge/Storm has been over sooo long ago it's not worth mentioning.

As far as the movie goes and the rumored relationship between Storm and Wolverine, I say go for it because as an avid RoLo fan, they are kindred spirits who must constantly battle their inner demons.

I have so much more to write but right now I need to get my butt back in the lab and work on my project. :O
So far I am really enjoying this thread and look forward to catching up on all the posts.

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?

[OutcryX]

A quick note...a long project at work plus a long Labor Day holiday = latecomer to this thread. With that said I apologize if I repeat something that someone else has said previously because I skimmed through the posts but did not read all of them as throughly as I normally do.

I have ranted against the nit-picking fanboys who sometimes run rabid on this board but truth be told, they are sometimes the last defense against Hollywood dumbasses who would ruin one comic book character after another. Since Storm is my favorite comic book character, I will use her as an example. I could overlook the blue eyes/contact issue and I really was disappointed with Halle's weak then non existent accent in the films. That being said, one of the problems that I saw in the X-films is that
the writer/director either did not know the character or chose to ignore her background completely. I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.

She is the earth mother, loving and giving. I like that part of her character but tell me how in the hell a woman so beautiful and so giving couldn't buy a seemingly happy relationship until recently (in the comics). Forge/Storm has been over sooo long ago it's not worth mentioning.

As far as the movie goes and the rumored relationship between Storm and Wolverine, I say go for it because as an avid RoLo fan, they are kindred spirits who must constantly battle their inner demons.

I have so much more to write but right now I need to get my butt back in the lab and work on my project. :O
So far I am really enjoying this thread and look forward to catching up on all the posts.

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?


Emplate is a black Super Villain

[Lightning Strykez!]

I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.



*sigh*^^^

I love this sista. :D:up:

Excellent points Megawatt...and yes, the sexxed-up Storm we see in the films is a far cry from what the iconic character represented in the comics. Even when Storm was shown floating among the clouded elements buck-nekkid she wasn't overtly sexy, she still came across like a regal Goddess of the wind. Everything about Storm screams taste and sophistication. Halle is capable of portraying that, but that has to be the vision of the writers and directors to bring that to the screen.

I swear when Halle came down the stairs to greet Logan's return in X2 it was simply shot from that angle to draw attention to her glorious tiggle-bitties...and not much else. Storm is nothing like that.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Emplate is a black Super Villain

As well as CINO. :p

[Electrix]

I swear when Halle came down the stairs to greet Logan's return in X2 it was simply shot from that angle to draw attention to her glorious tiggle-bitties...and not much else. Storm is nothing like that.

I agree. I dont like that scene at all. Its not Storm at all but Halle with a wig.

Halle bounced down them stairs, juggling her things about and the camera shots made it so that we saw it. Singer should have had Halle come down the stair a little slower. She could have put her hand on the banister, making her look more regal.

I'm sat here on my backside and I know how Storm should be portrayed and there are people like Bryan Singer being paid millions and doing nothing.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.

Storm is BLACK. Born of Africa...She's been portrayed with afrocentric features and I believe that Singer and his crew were just toooooooo scared to "go there" and create a dark-skinned action heroine that could really strike fear in the hearts of audiences.

http://www.ffbooks.co.uk/images/n21/n108307.jpg


So instead, they got a "safe-looking" biracial actress, and then powdered her skin tone to the lightest denominator.

http://movies.kikizo.com/media/storm/storm.jpg


And yet, Halle Berry herself is a black woman--complete with caramel skin tones. There's no reason for her to be as pale as she's been portrayed in X2--she was darker-complexioned in the first film!! Maybe it's just the lighting, but Halle possesses the right African features to capture Storm's look, even if she's not a dark-skinned black woman. As you can see below, with the appropriate make-up (damn, did Storm even have any make-up on in X2?) Halle is certainly not an albino by any stretch of the word.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r720242257.jpg?x=380&y=297&sig=lmCXMZfEbF160S2.r9t.WA--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r3365838366.jpg?x=380&y=253&sig=FQm.JChBBGyCDuudGAQ2mA--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r814820351.jpg?x=380&y=251&sig=.VzvykPsjsmUcBkXE_Q0mQ--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r164015776.jpg?x=380&y=275&sig=eKVULgzHDIGKDDJxCsLAuQ--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050815/capt.cadb11908150258.teen_choice_awards_cadb119.jp g?x=380&y=268&sig=uxgqdS_QLSl0ARc36r_3Gw--

Like I said...it's a matter of the writers' and director's focus. I hope Brett gets it right this time.

[Arach Knight]

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?

Apocalypse (X-Men)
Cardiac (Spider-Man)
Black Adam (Captain Marvel a.k.a Shazam)
Chapel (Spawn)
Charles Graham (Superman -- Team Luthor member)


Those are the only ones I could name off the top of my head, but I find it interesting that most of them are A list in terms of writing. Chapel killed Spawn when he was Al. Black Adam is Shazam's mainstay villain. Charles Graham has beaten Superman before and Apocalypse is of course one of the greatest villains the X-Men have ever fought. I'm sure there are tons of other black supervillains...but it would wreck my brain to flip through all my comic books and the internet to compose a list. I'm sure others can add to this list.

[terry78]

Now how many debates would spark if we claimed En Sabah Nur as a brotha? Never mind the "Egyptians aren't black" spiel. :p

[Arach Knight]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."

[megawatt]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.



Halle being biracial did not bother me at all.
Take the second awards picture and slap the white wig on Halle and you have Storm, confident, warm with a subtle regal aura.

Yes Hollywood still has a phobia about darker skinned people....unless they need some "Super Negro" bad ass ...then they can find one.

A question about the Blade movies. How much sense did it make for Blade to completely forget about the doctor who found a developed a cure for herself, helped Whistler refine some of Blades weapons and serum? Did Karen Jensen (N'Bushe Wright) just drop off the face of the earth? Whistler miraculously recovers from a self-inflicted gunshot **cough***bull$#it***cough but she is gone ....zip zero nada! Then they learn about the new strain of vampires and no one even thinks to look up this woman with her medical training, not to mention her personal encounters with our toothy friends. Oh sorry by the way we can't even recommend she show up in the third movie because it would make too much sense to have her working with the Nighthunters. I mean she is just a doctor who was bitten by a vampire, cured herself, worked with Blade, fought along side him. Oh wait I am repeating myself. :mad: God forbid we have a strong black intelligent woman in two movies...I mean they are all over the place. :rolleyes:

[Arach Knight]

That seems to be a bit of extreme nitpicking. Most super hero films tend to abandon the previous woman. When Batman Returns came out, Viki Vale was no where in sight. Maybe that is because Bruce stopped seeing her in the comic books at that time, but the film could have just gone its own route with continuity. And then what about Batman Forever and Nicole Kidman's character? Most super hero films, where the love interest isn't a consistent character (Spider-Man, Cyclops etc), wind up dumping the previous chick. Blade is a shades wearing, trench coat rocking bad ass. It would weigh down his character and marketability if suddenly he went steady. So I wouldn't chalk that one up to racism. They do it to Batman all the time for the same reason...and he is a wealthy white playboy...

[megawatt]

That seems to be a bit of extreme nitpicking. Most super hero films tend to abandon the previous woman. When Batman Returns came out, Viki Vale was no where in sight. Maybe that is because Bruce stopped seeing her in the comic books at that time, but the film could have just gone its own route with continuity. And then what about Batman Forever and Nicole Kidman's character? Most super hero films, where the love interest isn't a consistent character (Spider-Man, Cyclops etc), wind up dumping the previous chick. Blade is a shades wearing, trench coat rocking bad ass. It would weigh down his character and marketability if suddenly he went steady. So I wouldn't chalk that one up to racism. They do it to Batman all the time for the same reason...and he is a wealthy white playboy...

I wasn't trying to nitpick but simply give a plausible reason for Karen Jensen to reappear in the movies. I did not mean for her to show up as his love interest...just as a person he could turn to as a resource so to speak. Much like Whistler not as a replacement for Whistler but a contact if you will. As for Batman...you said it yourself...wealthy playboy.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."


Yeah but...it is the racist white peoples of the past that really established and determined what is truly "blackness". In the times of slavery, it didn't matter if you had no African blood in you, if you were darkskinned you were black--plain and simple. That's why, despite my biraciality, I'm considered "black"--a fact that really annoys my father because in his mind it completely dismisses my caucasian roots.

Yet it is the thinking of bigoted white folk that established the whole "one drop" standard.

[The Storm]

I think sometimes it depends where you live. I live in a very multicultral city, its hard to find someone who is just once race. There are a lot of mixed race/biracial people in this city and some say they are black and others say they are mixed race. Some white people see them as black this includes Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladesh etc) as well as Caribbeans and Africans and others see them as half cast (hate that word) or mixed race.

But on the other hand some black people see light skinned black people as just that light skinned black people and others see them as mixed race and the latter tend to dislike them.

[tamron]

A question about the Blade movies. How much sense did it make for Blade to completely forget about the doctor who found a developed a cure for herself, helped Whistler refine some of Blades weapons and serum? Did Karen Jensen (N'Bushe Wright) just drop off the face of the earth?

Blame David Goyer. He said on the official Blade:Trinity message board that he didn't see a good reason to bring her back. His point of view was that Dr. Jensen's only purpose was to give the audience a lense from which to view and introduce Blade's world. That purpose served, he deemed her unnecessary in the sequels.

[Minisinoo]

Actually, an ancient African would be largely confused by the whole question. They belonged to (from the Mediterranean POV) the oldest civilization. They were EGYPTIAN. "Race" is a modern invention, and entirely bogus from the point of view of biology. That's not to say it doesn't exist in terms of social conceptualization, mind, simply to point out that Apocalypse would be proud of his *Egyptian* heritage, not his African heritage. There was entirely too much ethnic (and skin) variation in the ancient Mediterranean for 'race' ever to develop. There isn't even a WORD for 'race' in either Greek or Latin. The words concern ethnicity and culture (or "nomos"). And from the Roman point of view, those fair Germans to the north were just as exotic (and expensive) a slave as the black Nubians from the south. Furthermore, if one adapted to Roman "nomos" (culture), your ethnic origin wasn't that important, by the time of the Empire, or even late Republic. So we have Spanish, Celtic, Greek and other Roman emperors, and we have playwrights such as Terrence, who was a Berber from S. of Carthage -- quite 'black' by modern standards but thoroughly Roman.

Their ideas were very different from ours. For a VERY good treatment, see Frank Snowden (formerly of Howard) Blacks in Antiquity. He wrote the book (literally) on the question. He also happens to be black, in case anyone wonders.

So yeah, just providing some historic context for Apocalypse. (Never mind that Marvel's "history" for him is completely bogus and makes this historian pull out her hair.)

On another topic entirely, and going back to earlier comments, Marvel has a rather bad habit of stereotyping a lot of non-American ethnic characters, not just Indians, but the Rom (gypsies), and even Russians. There has been some improvement of late, but the problems persist.

[megawatt]

Actually, an ancient African would be largely confused by the whole question. They belonged to (from the Mediterranean POV) the oldest civilization. They were EGYPTIAN. "Race" is a modern invention, and entirely bogus from the point of view of biology. That's not to say it doesn't exist in terms of social conceptualization, mind, simply to point out that Apocalypse would be proud of his *Egyptian* heritage, not his African heritage. There was entirely too much ethnic (and skin) variation in the ancient Mediterranean for 'race' ever to develop. There isn't even a WORD for 'race' in either Greek or Latin. The words concern ethnicity and culture (or "nomos"). And from the Roman point of view, those fair Germans to the north were just as exotic (and expensive) a slave as the black Nubians from the south. Furthermore, if one adapted to Roman "nomos" (culture), your ethnic origin wasn't that important, by the time of the Empire, or even late Republic. So we have Spanish, Celtic, Greek and other Roman emperors, and we have playwrights such as Terrence, who was a Berber from S. of Carthage -- quite 'black' by modern standards but thoroughly Roman.

Their ideas were very different from ours. For a VERY good treatment, see Frank Snowden (formerly of Howard) Blacks in Antiquity. He wrote the book (literally) on the question. He also happens to be black, in case anyone wonders.

So yeah, just providing some historic context for Apocalypse. (Never mind that Marvel's "history" for him is completely bogus and makes this historian pull out her hair.)

On another topic entirely, and going back to earlier comments, Marvel has a rather bad habit of stereotyping a lot of non-American ethnic characters, not just Indians, but the Rom (gypsies), and even Russians. There has been some improvement of late, but the problems persist.


/AGREE!!!!

American racial ideas and mythology ...yes I meant mythology has screwed up so many peoples' perception of themselves not to mention others both historically and in the current culture.

Oh and could someone fill me in on who the guy was that defeated Apocolypse in the House of M Black Panther issue. I believe his name is/was
Black Bolt but I don't know anything about him.

[Arach Knight]

Black Bolt is the leader of the Inhumans. He is married to Medusa and Crystal is his sister in law. He has a quasi-sonic scream power (sort of like Banshee, but far more destructive). The power is fueled by absoring energy from the environment. This absorption also allows him flight, super human strength and a slew of other abilities. You may best remember him from the old 90's Fantastic Four cartoon.

[Bluefire]

Risque is/was Native American. cool character that was Proudstar's girlfriend...until they killed her


risque is/was cuban. and while i agree native people are quite an under appreciated race, i think we should just stick with the topic this thread has started.

[Bluefire]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.

Storm is BLACK. Born of Africa...She's been portrayed with afrocentric features and I believe that Singer and his crew were just toooooooo scared to "go there" and create a dark-skinned action heroine that could really strike fear in the hearts of audiences.

http://www.ffbooks.co.uk/images/n21/n108307.jpg


So instead, they got a "safe-looking" biracial actress, and then powdered her skin tone to the lightest denominator.

http://movies.kikizo.com/media/storm/storm.jpg


And yet, Halle Berry herself is a black woman--complete with caramel skin tones. There's no reason for her to be as pale as she's been portrayed in X2--she was darker-complexioned in the first film!! Maybe it's just the lighting, but Halle possesses the right African features to capture Storm's look, even if she's not a dark-skinned black woman. As you can see below, with the appropriate make-up (damn, did Storm even have any make-up on in X2?) Halle is certainly not an albino by any stretch of the word.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r720242257.jpg?x=380&y=297&sig=lmCXMZfEbF160S2.r9t.WA--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r3365838366.jpg?x=380&y=253&sig=FQm.JChBBGyCDuudGAQ2mA--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r814820351.jpg?x=380&y=251&sig=.VzvykPsjsmUcBkXE_Q0mQ--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050815/i/r164015776.jpg?x=380&y=275&sig=eKVULgzHDIGKDDJxCsLAuQ--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050815/capt.cadb11908150258.teen_choice_awards_cadb119.jp g?x=380&y=268&sig=uxgqdS_QLSl0ARc36r_3Gw--

Like I said...it's a matter of the writers' and director's focus. I hope Brett gets it right this time.


but if that were the case, wouldn't they force halle to wear the blue contacts?

[spider-jide]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."


To cement this a tad further, how old is Apocalypse, roughly? People need to understand that Egypt was inhabited by black people with skin tones as dark as the night sky even up to and surpassing the time of Moses. If Apocalypse is centuries old or whatever, this establishes him as being a black man.

[Arach Knight]

Indeed many denizens of Africa are dark of skin. In fact, the Moores who ruled over spain until the late 1400's, were in fact black muslims who hailed from the northern region of Africa (Egypt is in northern Africa). So it is very possible for Apocalypse to be black.

[terry78]

I've always figured he was black, if not by his egyptian roots, but by his facial structure. But I know there are dozens upon dozens of fanboys who would retort with, "He's not black!" for the usual reasons.

http://www.a-bd.com/images/products/TOYBIZ_71117_256.jpg
http://fanlistings.org/apocalypse/images/extras.jpg
http://www.marvel.com/wallpaper/papers/x-men_aoa_os_1_800.jpg

[OutcryX]

risque is/was cuban. and while i agree native people are quite an under appreciated race, i think we should just stick with the topic this thread has started.


Risque was Cuban Seminole, which makes her part native american. I knew what i was talking about.

[The Storm]

There are light skinned and dark skinned people in Egypt. Surely if someone was from there they would be black.

I remember I used to go on a Queen of the Damned site and fans of Anna Rice's book were complaining that Aaliyah was too dark to play Akasha. In the book despite being Egyptian she was described as being pale, but a white Egyptian! In the end most people would agree for those who haven't read the book, Aaliyah was the perfect choice for an Egyptian Queen.

[Minisinoo]

There are light skinned and dark skinned people in Egypt. Surely if someone was from there they would be black.

Well, it depends on when you're talking about -- as is often the case in history.

Egypt has been populated by a wide variety of peoples. We've had the native Coptic population, we've had folks up from the south (Kush/Meroe/Nubia), we've had large populations of both Greeks and Jews, particularly in the delta area, etc.

In short, you have to define WHERE and WHEN and even WHO when you talk about people in ancient Egypt.

But I also want to point out that there is a LOT more variation in skin tone ALL throughout the Mediterranean that does not reflect ethnic divisions in the U.S. today. You simply can't compare 'racial' issues in modern America (or even modern Europe) to that of the Mediterranean in antiquity. Apples and oranges, folks.

[The Storm]

When I visited Egypt I didn't see any caucasian (sp?) people apart from tourists. But I understand in ancient times when countries invaded each other there was a mix of races. For example the Nubians despite being dark skinned have features similar to that of a caucasian. My assumption was that Egypt being in Africa that people would be black but again taking in the invasions.

Now I'm going on history programmes and what my guide told when I was out there. But since your a historian you'll know more than both of my sources so just take my post as simple persons idea.

[OutcryX]

Just wondering why this thread just died suddenly...and it was doing so well too...

[Arach Knight]

Well, it depends on when you're talking about -- as is often the case in history.

Egypt has been populated by a wide variety of peoples. We've had the native Coptic population, we've had folks up from the south (Kush/Meroe/Nubia), we've had large populations of both Greeks and Jews, particularly in the delta area, etc.

In short, you have to define WHERE and WHEN and even WHO when you talk about people in ancient Egypt.

You simply can't compare 'racial' issues in modern America (or even modern Europe) to that of the Mediterranean in antiquity. Apples and oranges, folks.

Comparing Jews living in Egypt, to being Egyptian is the only apples and oranges circumstance. You are talking about denizens of Egypt, rather than natives of Egypt. Being a denizen isn't the same as belonging to an ethnic group. You are correct that you can't use modern Western ideas on race. But sadly, you still do. You are comparing nationalism with ethnicity. In some cases, national identity is not racial. In some instances, cultural identity is not racial. But in most cases, your ethnicity, nation and culture are one in the same. I am a black man. Both of my parents could have lived in Japan for five years and had me there. That however wouldn't make me Japanese. On the other hand, if a Mexican couple migrated from Mexico and had a baby here, that child would be American. In the case of Egypt, being Egyptian isn't like beign American. Being Egyptian is both a national, cultural and ethnic association. Further more, Jews were the slaves of Egyptians, as historically shown in the Bible. They were denizens of Egypt, not natives. Your perspective is plausible but ultimately flawed in delivery. You might as well call the Moores, spanish because they lived in Spain for hundreds of years (which the Moores are black if anybody didn't know).

[spider-jide]

Comparing Jews living in Egypt, to being Egyptian is the only apples and oranges circumstance. You are talking about denizens of Egypt, rather than natives of Egypt. Being a denizen isn't the same as belonging to an ethnic group. You are correct that you can't use modern Western ideas on race. But sadly, you still do. You are comparing nationalism with ethnicity. In some cases, national identity is not racial. In some instances, cultural identity is not racial. But in most cases, your ethnicity, nation and culture are one in the same. I am a black man. Both of my parents could have lived in Japan for five years and had me there. That however wouldn't make me Japanese. On the other hand, if a Mexican couple migrated from Mexico and had a baby here, that child would be American. In the case of Egypt, being Egyptian isn't like beign American. Being Egyptian is both a national, cultural and ethnic association. Further more, Jews were the slaves of Egyptians, as historically shown in the Bible. They were denizens of Egypt, not natives. Your perspective is plausible but ultimately flawed in delivery. You might as well call the Moores, spanish because they lived in Spain for hundreds of years (which the Moores are black if anybody didn't know).

Good points :up:

[comic book girl]

When talking about egyptians I think I know how it went. The first Egyptians were black but then Greeks came and started mating with them.

[comic book girl]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.

[Lightning Strykez!]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.


Isn't Nefertiti on Halle's list of upcoming films?

[The Storm]

I read that somewhere and I'm sure that Jessica Alba was a possibility for a Cleopatra film.

[comic book girl]

Isn't Nefertiti on Halle's list of upcoming films?
Probably. Thanks for the correct spelling.

[comic book girl]

Jessica Alba would not be a bad choice but she would need to go a shade darker.Like Eva Mendes.

[OutcryX]

Jessica Alba would not be a bad choice but she would need to go a shade darker.Like Eva Mendes.

Alba would not be a bad choice to play whom exactly? Nefertiti? I must disagree with you.

[The Storm]

Not Nefertiti, Cleopatra. I've always thought that Iman would be perfect for Nefertiti. OK so shes not an actress but she is Nefertiti!!!

[OutcryX]

Not Nefertiti, Cleopatra. I've always thought that Iman would be perfect for Nefertiti. OK so shes not an actress but she is Nefertiti!!!


Ahh ok...but still...Cleopatra is black right? of fair skin....shouldn't they get her race correct for once in the films?

[The Storm]

To add to that point yes I do believe Cleopatra was of Greek descent but she was also black. Nefitiri, Nefititi, and Tut however have more of the African features.

Was posted earlier tonight.

[Arach Knight]

We shouldn't let this thread stray so far from the original point. I simply brought up Apocalypse because he is one of the few black super villains in comic books today. I think the point has been made that Egyptians are black. So we should move on from there and return to the main discussion. Not that this hasn't been enlightening...

[Lightning Strykez!]

^^^ Agreed....

...but before we get back on topic, let me slide this in there: No Jessica Alba for Cleo.

At all.

:p

[OutcryX]

^^^ Agreed....

...but before we get back on topic, let me slide this in there: No Jessica Alba for Cleo.

At all.

:p


I concure as well....Even tho Ms. Alba es muy caliente!!! I love a spanish lady! ;)

[Arach Knight]

So how does everybody feel about Ben Reilly being made into an African American in the Ultimate universe? I think that was a cool way to add him to the continuity and even involve him in the "clone" saga, without having to make things so messy.

[Lightning Strykez!]

So how does everybody feel about Ben Reilly being made into an African American in the Ultimate universe? I think that was a cool way to add him to the continuity and even involve him in the "clone" saga, without having to make things so messy.


Actually I haven't seen it yet. Got any pics?

[Arach Knight]

Sadly I don't. He was simply a lab technician that helped Kurt Conners to accidentally create Carnage. I just found it interesting that they chose to make him an African American. On a more interesting note though, I just got through reading House of M Prelude TPB. The story revolves around the invasion of Zanzibar land, which is a small island nation off the coast of Africa. The president of the country is actually a super hero named Askari The Spear. I don't know much about his powers, but he is fairly strong and can produce energy bolts. I find this characterization to be refreshing, because not only is this character a black super hero, they are also a world leader. It is almost like having a second Black Panther around.

[SuperVenom]

Too much afrocentricity. We should just say, "They are egyptian" and leave it at that. In the Western mind, we have to fit people into certain groups, "Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid" because that's the way we were raised, but it is completley wrong.

People have their own lives and cultures, and we best leave it that way. Some may look black, but genetically, they are not. Melanesians and Aborigines looks black, but genetically, they are closer to asians than africans. Just leave it as it is.

Also, as many said, there are a lot of diversities that move in to a certain location, which changes the people. In a lot of the Arab countries, there are South Asians there that do menial jobs, therefore this might be the reason that a lot of them seem dark to you, such as the Bengalis. Some arabs I have seen look white. A lot of people from Lebanon that I have seen fit that description. Also a lot of the people labeled as "Terrorists" underneath the beard and such, can pass for a white person. Ever see the American Taliban?


Back on topic, John Stewart = best Black Knight

[comic book girl]

Was posted earlier tonight.
Just wanted to agree.

[Arach Knight]

Nobody was really mentioning race in relationship to ethnic cliches. At least not thus far. And I believe the issue of Egypt, is more related to the fact that the entire land mass is contiguoous. The native inhabitants of most every country on the continent, are of Black-African descent. Of course the reflection of that today has changed a great deal. Now there are "Afrikaans" who live in South Africa. They are the white Dutch that introduced themselves to the land in the late 19th century. But they are obviously not black. Also, there is a difference of dark skin and sometimes even region, and ethnicity. Nobody thinks of Aboriginals as being ethnically African in descent. However a lot of Brazillians that are black, are African in descent. A Filipino person is often viewed as being asian, even though they are actually part of the Maylay race and not the asian race. In some cases, region and skin color are not ethnic indicators. But in others they can be. I think that is what everybody was getting at as far as Apocalypse being black, and more specifically, Egyptians being black.

[KenK]

We shouldn't let this thread stray so far from the original point. I simply brought up Apocalypse because he is one of the few black super villains in comic books today. I think the point has been made that Egyptians are black. So we should move on from there and return to the main discussion. Not that this hasn't been enlightening...

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

[Red Mask]

Marvel Entertainment and Universal will be releasing a 'Black Panther' film, but I doubt he'll be grouped with the mutants in this thread.

Peace and prosperity to Africa.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Too much afrocentricity. We should just say, "They are egyptian" and leave it at that. In the Western mind, we have to fit people into certain groups, "Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid" because that's the way we were raised, but it is completley wrong.

People have their own lives and cultures, and we best leave it that way. Some may look black, but genetically, they are not. Melanesians and Aborigines looks black, but genetically, they are closer to asians than africans. Just leave it as it is.

Also, as many said, there are a lot of diversities that move in to a certain location, which changes the people. In a lot of the Arab countries, there are South Asians there that do menial jobs, therefore this might be the reason that a lot of them seem dark to you, such as the Bengalis. Some arabs I have seen look white. A lot of people from Lebanon that I have seen fit that description. Also a lot of the people labeled as "Terrorists" underneath the beard and such, can pass for a white person. Ever see the American Taliban?


Back on topic, John Stewart = best Black Knight

Good points.

[Arach Knight]

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/

That website has Apocalypse listed. Though one of the contributors was dubious about Apocalypse and his standing as being black. Much like it is in this thread, it is a subject still up for debate. But he is still included in that collection of black heroes and villains across the comic industry.

[SuperVenom]

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

And they say white people are racist for trying to claim everything, geesh!

I agree, if you Africa (not the northern part where arabs are), then they are black. It's even much debate if they are from the Carribeans or Dominican Republic, because while they are black, they are closer to that culture and therefore many do not even consider themselves Africans.

Next I am going to hear them claiming Chinese heroes, yes from China, as a black man. Stop going by phenotypes folks, genetically you are different!

[Arach Knight]

Other than you getting my Emma Frost thread closed, I have no problems with you SuperVenom. You generally seem like a good person....but that last statement was writhe with unintentional ignorance. I suppose in the most basic sense, people are genetically different. Some people have genes for blond hair, others for black etc etc. But at the base of it all, we are all human. So ultimately we are all the same oxygen dependent carbon based life forms. Nobody is trying to claim everything. but when you consider that the entire continent of Africa has historically been natively inhabited by black people...there should be no real debate about that kind of blackness. And people in the Carribean, like some (not all) people in Brazil, are descendents of people dropped off on the slave route. If you are savy enough on the matter, you will know that African slaves were not solely exported to America. Nor were they only taken by the English to America. The Dutch and the Portuguese were also huge African slave traders. And the slave trade route is three points, like a triangle. From the eastern coast of Africa, to the Carribean/South American area up to America and then back to Africa. So nobody is falsely claiming people in that region to be of African descent either. History is history despite your best efforts to rob black people of what little heritage they are left today, in this part of the world.

[SuperVenom]

Other than you getting my Emma Frost thread closed, I have no problems with you SuperVenom. You generally seem like a good person....but that last statement was writhe with unintentional ignorance. I suppose in the most basic sense, people are genetically different. Some people have genes for blond hair, others for black etc etc. But at the base of it all, we are all human. So ultimately we are all the same oxygen dependent carbon based life forms. Nobody is trying to claim everything. but when you consider that the entire continent of Africa has historically been natively inhabited by black people...there should be no real debate about that kind of blackness. And people in the Carribean, like some (not all) people in Brazil, are descendents of people dropped off on the slave route. If you are savy enough on the matter, you will know that African slaves were not solely exported to America. Nor were they only taken by the English to America. The Dutch and the Portuguese were also huge African slave traders. And the slave trade route is three points, like a triangle. From the eastern coast of Africa, to the Carribean/South American area up to America and then back to Africa. So nobody is falsely claiming people in that region to be of African descent either. History is history despite your best efforts to rob black people of what little heritage they are left today, in this part of the world.

I have no problem with you either, and furthermore I didn't call you the N (since you don't like it spelled out, either way it's the same) Word, which you implied after I corrected you twice. That is the only problem I have with you, since you jumped to conclusions and accused me of something I didn't do. I don't water things down, I tell it like it is. If someone cannot join in a conversation, and join in it as an analytical one when I made it out to be that way, then I do not know what to say. You just see the N word and automatically you go bonkers, no matter what the subject is about, and accuse someone of calling you that even though in their post no where near did it say such a thing. But I'll leave it at that.

Genes changed the entire being. You would be surprised to find out if a European person had closer genes to Africans than Melanesians and Aborigines. Apparently, everyone (almost everyone) judges people by phenotype and not by genetics, which makes that person almost as ignorant as someone who thinks all hispanics are Mexicans.

You have to get into environmental factors and such in order to judge the reason why they look such a way they do.

As for Apocalypse, dunno how the heck someone claimed him as African. It's either, "He is white" or "He is black", just leave him as Egyptian and stop trying to fit him into societies mold.

Just because somewhere is right next to the place, doesn't make them that. If this was the case, we might as well claim Europeans as Africans, since they are close to the next country which is closer to the next country that is close to Africa. And btw, we don't even know if people were even charcoal or even black for that matter when it even started on Africa.

We know currently that the Khoisan are one (if not thee) oldest people on the earth, and they reside in a place in Africa. Even these Khoisan have different genetic markers from other places in Africa, so even there things start to break down and you can see it start to become diverse even within the African population.


Another subject I want to ask, are there even that many black heroes or villans in Marvel or DC? I believe Omega Comics is geared toward the Black Community, but what of the two major comics?

I know of John Stewart, Black Panther, Steel, Two Face (he's black right?), Ororo, Spike, Ororos Nephew with quick speed (anyone know his name, saw him in the cartoon when he got possessed), and thats about it I think.

[terry78]

No, there aren't that many well known, but there are more that were created, hence our having the discussion.

[SuperVenom]

No, there aren't that many well known, but there are more that were created, hence our having the discussion.

Shucks, thanks though.

John Stewart is still on me tops then, I love his stoic nature, and he's unique compared to the other GLs that have been on Earth.

[comic book girl]

This reminds me of the time when my Israeli friend was happy when she found out Magneto was not only Jewish, but suffered through the Holocuast.

[SuperVenom]

This reminds me of the time when my Israeli friend was happy when she found out Magneto was not only Jewish, but suffered through the Holocuast.

The heck? I guess it adds more credibility to her being Jewish and makes Jewish people look more powerful, thats my take on that one. But I dunno whats so happy about someone suffering, especially since it was a real event.

[Arach Knight]

-Well Supervenom i'm glad we can reach some middle ground. I never said that you personally called me that word, I simply said you implied that you hated black people...and for the most part, you statement did seem to give that idea. Even the moderator took you to mean that. But misunderstandings happen. Sometimes we have the right idea in our mind, but when we give birth to words...it sometimes come out differently than we were thinking it. So consider us tabula rasa good sir.

As it were, being "black" by modern social standards mostly refers to being from Africa. In other countries, it may refer to any dark skinned individual including Arabs, Aborigines and in some odd cases, even Samoans. I understand your points about geneology versus phenotype. And for those that are not aware, phenotype refers to the physical expression of genes. So things like almond eyes (Asians) or lush lips (Africans), would be examples of phenotype. As it were though, Apocalypse does have a mostly African phenotype. Lush lips, broad nose. Depending on who inks him, his skin at times even does resmble a vauge beige tone.

In regards to Egypt and Africa however....the continent may house numerous nations, but the ethnic composition is unified. Africa is often viewed as being "black." Though, it is not always the case that continental region is an expression of phenotype or other ethnic factors. The Maylay for instance are often considered Asian, because of their phenotype. However, regionally, they are not Asian. An Indian from India however, is technically Asian (South-East Asian). So I know full well the argument you are making. But in the case of Egypt, I am inclined to side with the idea that ancient Egyptians are indeed "black" by the most common association with the word (of dark skin and African descent). Even ancient Egyptian art has them depicting themselves as being of a dark complexion.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/EUR/1500-15349.jpg


Compare that to this older portrait of an Arab princess with her African maid

http://home.globalfrontiers.com/Zanzibar/Arab%20Princess%20and%20Maid%201731%20.jpg

We can see how pale she is, especially compared to the way that the Egyptians depict themselves in their own ancient art. You can see why it is quite reasonable to define Egyptians as "black." Especially in comparison to your Arab parallels. For even further insight on the difficult subject, I found this apt quote. "Genetically, Egyptians are very closely related to the other people of Africa, and (compared to Europeans or Asians) they are African or black." This encompasses your idea Supervenom, but maintains my point. Egyptians are seen as "black" because the natives of the entire contient are "black" by most modern associations of the word. They may have become lighter in skin and have intergrated other cultures and ideas, but they are ultimately related to the same darker skinned inhabitants that make up the face of Africa. You can read the rest of the article (which is very well stated)....here http://www.jimloy.com/issues/afro.htm


-There are numerous black figures in the gallery of characters from both major publishers...including...

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)

Those are just ones I can personally name off the top of my head. If you go to http://www.blacksuperhero.com (http://www.blacksuperhero.com/) they have an entire list by with publishers, of black characters in the comic industry. It makes my list look pitiful. But my list is at least an example. We are not as ignored in some regards. Black characters exist...they just aren't always headliners.

[SuperVenom]

-Well Supervenom i'm glad we can reach some middle ground. I never said that you personally called me that word, I simply said you implied that you hated black people...and for the most part, you statement did seem to give that idea. Even the moderator took you to mean that. But misunderstandings happen. Sometimes we have the right idea in our mind, but when we give birth to words...it sometimes come out differently than we were thinking it. So consider us tabula rasa good sir.


Sounds good then. BTW I said, "IF, I didnt like a black character and decided to say that is just as BAD as saying that about women, since both are degrading." Thanks for explaining. *extends hand


As it were, being "black" by modern social standards mostly refers to being from Africa. In other countries, it may refer to any dark skinned individual including Arabs, Aborigines and in some odd cases, even Samoans. I understand your points about geneology versus phenotype. And for those that are not aware, phenotype refers to the physical expression of genes. So things like almond eyes (Asians) or lush lips (Africans), would be examples of phenotype. As it were though, Apocalypse does have a mostly African phenotype. Lush lips, broad nose. Depending on who inks him, his skin at times even does resmble a vauge beige tone.

I'm Polynesian, heres how my folks look:

In case you didnt read my Polynesian thread, that is how real Polynesians look like, not the stereotypical media showing asians doing our stuff, sucks to see that our people are pushed back thanks to it. And I mean pure or almost pure Polys, not mixies. But thats a different topic and I digress.

Apocalypse could be polynesian for that matter, since he matches all of those phenotype characteristics according to that logic, but I think I know what you are saying. I personally like the big nose version.


In regards to Egypt and Africa however....the continent may house numerous nations, but the ethnic composition is unified. Africa is often viewed as being "black." Though, it is not always the case that continental region is an expression of phenotype or other ethnic factors. The Maylay for instance are often considered Asian, because of their phenotype. However, regionally, they are not Asian. An Indian from India however, is technically Asian (South-East Asian). So I know full well the argument you are making. But in the case of Egypt, I am inclined to side with the idea that ancient Egyptians are indeed "black" by the most common association with the word (of dark skin and African descent). Even ancient Egyptian art has them depicting themselves as being of a dark complexion.

So you are judging this based on a phenotypical reasons, am I correct? Also, skin is not a good way of distinguishing such things, as I have seen Indians darker than most black people.


We can see how pale she is, especially compared to the way that the Egyptians depict themselves in their own ancient art. You can see why it is quite reasonable to define Egyptians as "black." Especially in comparison to your Arab parallels. Moving on from this thought though....


They can get blacks from the other parts of Africa, and use them as slaves or maids. They did this to the Jews.


Those are just ones I can personally name off the top of my head. If you go to http://www.blacksuperhero.com they have an entire list by with publishers, of black characters in the comic industry. It makes my list look pitiful. But my list is at least an example. We are not as ignored in some regards. Black characters exist...they just aren't always headliners.

Thanks for the tips mate, and again, thanks for explaining, I personally didnt mean any offense. Sadly there aint that many blacks that are headliners.

[Red Mask]

For those who live in Philadelphia, check out University of Penn's Museum of Archeology and Anthropology. If you look at some of the statues of Ancient Egyptians you'll notice they have African facial features.

[Arach Knight]

It is quite alright man. People are bound to clash. This is the internet after all. Opinions will collide and the occasional feeling will be hurt. But I try not to get all butt hurt over small things. Everybody can disagree and still be civil. Or they can have a misunderstanding (like we did). You after all did respond to my Emma Frost 2.0 thread, and maintained the same stance, without the questionable phrasing. So everything is fine. And for that matter, Apocalypse could very well be a number of ethnic variants, based on phenotype alone. He could be Brazilian, Aboriginal, Dominican etc. Some of those are of African descent (non-native, slave ancestory Brazilians), and some are not (Aboriginals). But given that the comic books have stated Apocalypse to be Egyptian, we can summise that he was a black Egyptian.

I believe his current altered appearence is the result of his exposure to the Celestial technology that provides him the bulk of his other powers. As a mutant, he is only an Eternal (a group of immortal mutants, like Cannon Ball for instance). But with the Celestial tech, he gains the other powers like shape shifting etc. So that may be why he has lost skin tone related phenotypes. By the by, I must applaud the thought you have put into this discussion. First Herr Logan surprises me by intergrating philosophy into his over view of Peter Parker (another thread) and then you use biology to approach a character like Apocalypse. For every person that saddens me on this forum....there are people like you Supervenom, who use some note worthy degree of intelligence.

[SuperVenom]

It is quite alright man. People are bound to clash. This is the internet after all. Opinions will collide and the occasional feeling will be hurt. But I try not to get all butt hurt over small things. Everybody can disagree and still be civil. Or they can have a misunderstanding (like we did). You after all did respond to my Emma Frost 2.0 thread, and maintained the same stance, without the questionable phrasing. So everything is fine. And for that matter, Apocalypse could very well be a number of ethnic variants, based on phenotype alone. He could be Brazilian, Aboriginal, Dominican etc. Some of those are of African descent (non-native, slave ancestory Brazilians), and some are not (Aboriginals). But given that the comic books have stated Apocalypse to be Egyptian, we can summise that he was a black Egyptian.

I believe his current altered appearence is the result of his exposure to the Celestial technology that provides him the bulk of his other powers. As a mutant, he is only an Eternal (a group of immortal mutants, like Cannon Ball for instance). But with the Celestial tech, he gains the other powers like shape shifting etc. So that may be why he has lost skin tone related phenotypes. By the by, I must applaud the thought you have put into this discussion. First Herr Logan surprises me by intergrating philosophy into his over view of Peter Parker (another thread) and then you use biology to approach a character like Apocalypse. For every person that saddens me on this forum....there are people like you Supervenom, who use some note worthy degree of intelligence.

Why thanks for the kind words mate. At least someone here knows what I am talking about in regards to phenotype vs genealogy matters. I have to admit I was the type of person that said, "If it looks black, it's black" and I obviously didn't know that even Melanesians are closer to Asians than Africans in genetics.

I understand your point on the Egypt and Africa deal, but I personally cannot summarise my ideas on him being either Black or Arab, since we do not know how it was back then or not. It's not that it matters what he is, but when we start to put him into a group of some sort, I tend to be careful.

For example, there are Blacks that claim that they had sovereignty in the United States, meaning Hawai'i. If you look at the queen, yes she may have some features and stuff, but when they claim stuff like that it kind of gets people infuriated if you know what I mean. In the case of Africans and Hawaiians, I do not get as mad as others, but there are some that just get pissed. So this is why I am careful when putting poeple in a group.

[Arach Knight]

- This is an ammended version of my earlier list of black comic characters. I left out two people and I honestly don't know how I could have. They are both fairly well known

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)
-Warmachine (Marvel)
-Deathlok (Marvel)

-I don't know why anybody who is black, would claim Hawaiin heritage unless they have a Hawaiin in their family. Hawaiin's are Asian...I always figured that was common knowledge. But, some people have taken afrocentricity to new lengths. Usually the kind that lay claim to more history than necessary. I think it is some attempt at regaining a degree of respect that slavery has robbed us of. But I don't buy into most of that. I am black and my father is a South African raised in Kenya. I have a proud enough history. I have no need to rob others of theirs, to make mine seem greater. That, is taking it too far, by my measure.

[SuperVenom]

- This is an ammended version of my earlier list of black comic characters. I left out two people and I honestly don't know how I could have. They are both fairly well known

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)
-Warmachine (Marvel)
-Deathlok (Marvel)


O my how could I forget Spawn. He was one of my favorite characters, the best back then IMO. One of the biggest black figures out there, that is if people knew he was black.


-I don't know why anybody who is black, would claim Hawaiin heritage unless they have a Hawaiin in their family. Hawaiin's are Asian...I always figured that was common knowledge. But, some people have taken afrocentricity to new lengths. Usually the kind that lay claim to more history than necessary. I think it is some attempt at regaining a degree of respect that slavery has robbed us of. But I don't buy into most of that. I am black and my father is a South African raised in Kenya. I have a proud enough history. I have no need to rob others of theirs, to make mine seem greater. That, is taking it too far, by my measure.

Very good points. Everyone has their own history and should be proud of that. But I have to correct you on one of your points. First Hawaiians are not asian. The reason why you thinkthey are asian is because there was the plantation era in which the Americans brough Asians from all over asia, the Phillipines, Korea, and prior to that the Chinese before they banned them from ever coming here. This is why a lot of Hawaiians look asian because it is just that, they are mixed. It is hard to find a pure Hawaiian at all, and when you do they do not look asian at all. I dunno if you could see my pictures, but they have no asian features at all.

Polynesians (which Hawaiians are in case you didn't know) in theory the forebears are from South East Asia, which then went through Melanesia (such as Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, etc) and mixed there. This is why we have a lot of African features, some have the hair thing going on some don't (because of the asian mix IMO), as well as some people with asian features (although I rarely see it in pure bloods). Also Polynesians are mesomorphs (meaning naturally muscular), of course again talking about the pure ones again. Many of these reasons is why the afrocentrists consider them African and if I was oblivious to culture, migration patterns, and identity, I wouldn't argue.

[Arach Knight]

Thank you for the clairification. I have a friend who is Japanese (her father hails from Okinawa) and she has a lot of family in Hawaii. I was under the impression that there was a long running heritage with Hawaiin people being some variant of Asian.

[SuperVenom]

Thank you for the clairification. I have a friend who is Japanese (her father hails from Okinawa) and she has a lot of family in Hawaii. I was under the impression that there was a long running heritage with Hawaiin people being some variant of Asian.

O no mate, see thats the exact thing right there that really needs to stop, as our people are shunned away and people start seeing asians as the real Hawaiians. Glad that you know now mate :) BTW, heres the royal family, before it was stolen:

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/3714/kamehamehaohana3ar.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Don't look asian to me :p

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://imageshack.us)

[Arach Knight]

Ahh yes....everybody should be familar with the Hawaiin King, Kamehameha. Dragon Ball after all borrowed the name for one of the series most powerful attacks.

[SuperVenom]

Ahh yes....everybody should be familar with the Hawaiin King, Kamehameha. Dragon Ball after all borrowed the name for one of the series most powerful attacks.

Ya....sadly....and btw thats King Kamehameha the 2nd.


Back on topic, anyone have any good pics or writings on Amazon? She's pretty cool even though I have only read one episode (and it was more of a cameo).

[comic book girl]

The heck? I guess it adds more credibility to her being Jewish and makes Jewish people look more powerful, thats my take on that one. But I dunno whats so happy about someone suffering, especially since it was a real event.
I don't mean she was happy about suffering, she was happy there was a character created that went through what her great grandparents went through.

[SuperVenom]

I don't mean she was happy about suffering, she was happy there was a character created that went through what her great grandparents went through.

O ok I see.

[terry78]

Isn't The Rock supposed to be starring in a movie version of his life? Kamehameha, I mean.

[SuperVenom]

Isn't The Rock supposed to be starring in a movie version of his life? Kamehameha, I mean.

Apparently, and he's a good choice IMO since he looks Polynesian compared to a lot of other Hawaiian stars who are mixed like crazy and therefore lost the physical traits.

Not sure what's going on though.

[Arach Knight]

Dwayne Johnson is actually half black/half samoan.

[OutcryX]

Speaking of Samoans...whatever happened to Mondo?

[SuperVenom]

Dwayne Johnson is actually half black/half samoan.

Ya, he don't look black at all though, that's why he would make a good choice to represent the Polynesians. His uncles, the Wild Samoans, look more black than he does and they arent even black.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5031/rocky4wl.th.gif (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rocky4wl.gif)

The guy on the right is Rocks dad the one on the left is his uncle Afa.

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://imageshack.us)

[SuperVenom]

Speaking of Samoans...whatever happened to Mondo?

Not sure, I asked for pics on my Polynesian thread but no one responded, so I don't even know how he looks aside from AoA but thats all when hes already transformed.

[OutcryX]

Not sure, I asked for pics on my Polynesian thread but no one responded, so I don't even know how he looks aside from AoA but thats all when hes already transformed.

Pictures of Mondo coming up.

http://ultimatecomics.free.fr/xmen/miniatures/mondo.gif http://thcousin.nerim.net/xmen/images/Mondo_genx.jpg http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/headshots/aoa-mondo.jpg


The thing I liked about Mondo, other than his powers...was that he was Husky and represented for the big boys!!!

[OutcryX]

Ya, he don't look black at all though, that's why he would make a good choice to represent the Polynesians. His uncles, the Wild Samoans, look more black than he does and they arent even black.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5031/rocky4wl.th.gif (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rocky4wl.gif)

The guy on the right is Rocks dad the one on the left is his uncle Afa.

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://imageshack.us/)


I can see African American features in him for sure.

http://www.celebstation.org/actors/_therock/dwayne_johnson-8.jpg

not to demean his Samoan features...
I have a thing for Samoans, Polynesians and all of the Pacific Islanders tho....just plain sexxy...dayum.

[SuperVenom]

Pictures of Mondo coming up.

http://ultimatecomics.free.fr/xmen/miniatures/mondo.gif http://thcousin.nerim.net/xmen/images/Mondo_genx.jpg http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/headshots/aoa-mondo.jpg


The thing I liked about Mondo, other than his powers...was that he was Husky and represented for the big boys!!!

Now thats ridiculous. The one in the middle looks no where near a polynesian.

But thanks for the pictures.

[SuperVenom]

I can see African American features in him for sure.

http://www.celebstation.org/actors/_therock/dwayne_johnson-8.jpg

not to demean his Samoan features...
I have a thing for Samoans, Polynesians and all of the Pacific Islanders tho....just plain sexxy...dayum.


Polynesians themselves have features similar to Africans. I see no African independant features in the Rock though, since a lot of Polynesians already look like him without any Black in them.

And btw, Pacific Islanders includes Micronesia, Melanesia, and Polynesia, so you have to be specific. Phillipines is not part of it, though for some reason they claim it.

[OutcryX]

Polynesians themselves have features similar to Africans. I see no African independant features in the Rock though, since a lot of Polynesians already look like him without any Black in them.

And btw, Pacific Islanders includes Micronesia, Melanesia, and Polynesia, so you have to be specific. Phillipines is not part of it, though for some reason they claim it.

i know that pacific islanders includes all those groups...i have no preferances...any and all will do. I don't include the Phillipines in it either. I find the fact that there are other dark races that are not technically 'black' but can easily be confused for it extremely interesting.

That and i have yet to meet a Samoan, Micronesian, Melanesian, or Polynesian that i have NOT found attractive. Beautiful people.

[SuperVenom]

i know that pacific islanders includes all those groups...i have no preferances...any and all will do. I don't include the Phillipines in it either. I find the fact that there are other dark races that are not technically 'black' but can easily be confused for it extremely interesting.

That and i have yet to meet a Samoan, Micronesian, Melanesian, or Polynesian that i have NOT found attractive. Beautiful people.

Thanks for the compliment on my people :)

Micronesians tend to look asian, such as Guam since there is a heavy mongoloid mixture there.

http://img23.imagevenue.com/loc23/th_603_guamkids.jpg

Melanesian, although not black, can be confused as such because they have the same charcoal skin, hair, and such.

http://img12.imagevenue.com/loc137/th_d31_fiji_lady_01_lg.jpg (http://img12.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc137&image=d31_fiji_lady_01_lg.jpg)

Polynesians (and I am not bragging or anything, just facts) are bigger than the previous two mentioned, and like I also mentioned before are naturally mesomorphic (tend to have muscle mass). Samoans, Hawaiians, Tahitians, Tongans, etc. Now adays though, like I also mentioned, the Polynesians are really not that pure since there is so many mixtures such as in Hawai'i during the plantation days when they immigrated the asians to work the fields. Plus a lot of them died due to no medical care, poverty, disease brought over, etc.

http://img111.imagevenue.com/loc182/th_0f1_kkuanaoa.jpg

http://img111.imagevenue.com/loc19/th_cf8_Kahili_Bearer_3.JPG (http://img111.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc19&image=cf8_Kahili_Bearer_3.JPG)

http://img102.imagevenue.com/loc211/th_384_taholelei.jpg

Sorry if I talked too much, I just like to get the most information on these people as possible since thanks to the media, barely anyone knows the true polynesians, just like Arach was under the false idea that they were "obviously asian".


Thanks to www.imagevenue.com for image hosting.

[OutcryX]

Lets move forward shall we? How about we change the topic to one of MY favorite characters. The X-Man we all know as:
BISHOP

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/831199b9/8007/__sr_/b9c4.jpg?ph4vNLDBg7dFDUbZhttp://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/831199b9/8007/__sr_/c09e.jpg?ph3vNLDB9cdanZGmhttp://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/831199b9/8007/__sr_/3b39.jpg?ph4vNLDB0I2yfYefhttp://www.chezcomics.com/comics-resources-information-pages/marvel-comics-information-resources/marvel-comics-superhero-character-profiles/bishop.gifhttp://ultimatecomics.free.fr/xmen/images/x-men/Bishop_01.jpg http://mcity.compholio.com/revx/headshots/bishop.jpg
Why is it that Bishop is not as Popular as his fellow X-Men? He is one of only 2 Black male X-Men(Maggot being the other...he's kinda dead right now) and 4 Black X-Men all together(Storm and Cecilia Reyes who is Blatino).
Why is it that he has been always written as a Big Badass Mofo who is also a cop? When he was actually given an interesting storyline, IMO, the one involving him and Deathbird in Space...it was quickly ended and wrapped up so he could go back to being good soldier boy. He has the potential to be one of the most powerful and interesting X-Men ever but apparently....NOBODY knows how to write this character. Lobdell and Nicieza(i spelled that wrong) were close and the best so far as writing him. But Claremont? He is killing the character along with everyone else on his book. Your opinions are welcome

[SuperVenom]

Cant see the pics mate.

[OutcryX]

they are there for all to see

[SuperVenom]

Bishop is not a favorite because of what you already pointed out. He was good when we were first introduced to him, but IMO got slowly boring. In Age of Apocalypse, all he does is get beat.

BTW, I still can't see the pictures.

[OutcryX]

Bishop is not a favorite because of what you already pointed out. He was good when we were first introduced to him, but IMO got slowly boring. In Age of Apocalypse, all he does is get beat.

BTW, I still can't see the pictures.

The pics are back up. Not the ones i wanted originally but they'll do. But Thats just it. Bishop got boring because the writers act as if they don't know what to do with him. Him and Storm both actually but she had her turn already. Bishop is man displaced in time. His reality may or may not come to be. He came back to stop the traitor to the X-Men, he achieved that when Onslaught(Prof. X) tried to kill the X-Men. So what now? There are sooo many option that this character has and nobody does anything with him. It is sickening.

[SuperVenom]

The pics are back up. Not the ones i wanted originally but they'll do. But Thats just it. Bishop got boring because the writers act as if they don't know what to do with him. Him and Storm both actually but she had her turn already. Bishop is man displaced in time. His reality may or may not come to be. He came back to stop the traitor to the X-Men, he achieved that when Onslaught(Prof. X) tried to kill the X-Men. So what now? There are sooo many option that this character has and nobody does anything with him. It is sickening.

I like the second one, looks cool.

It's really hard to decide what to do with Bishop since his mission is already done. Theres really nothing left for him to do (in terms of why he was introduced into the story). Leaving it as a cop is basically just keeping things neutral and nothing at the calibur as how he used to be. Maybe it would be cool to just have him scour different realities and such, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

[terry78]

Not to get off the issue of Bishop, but as a side note regarding the thread's topic, what do you think of Dwayne McDuffie and his involvement in the comic world as a writer for both books and tv series?

http://homepage.mac.com/dmcduffie/site/dwaynephoto.gif

[Zoken]

I think that Bishop isn't that popular of a character because of the complicated backstory on him. look at the popular characters and their backstories.

Kurt: former circus performer, almost burned at the stake.

Gambit: former theif, cajun charmer.

the really popular characters have catchy easy to remember back stories. I know I dumbed those two down a lot, but that is what people remember. I really think that Bishop's problem is just as stated above; he's lost his functionality. they're trying to find a place fore him, a serious place for him, and I think it might really be best in either the District X series or the Uncanny X-Men (the series following the XSE)

[OutcryX]

I think that Bishop isn't that popular of a character because of the complicated backstory on him. look at the popular characters and their backstories.

Kurt: former circus performer, almost burned at the stake.

Gambit: former theif, cajun charmer.

the really popular characters have catchy easy to remember back stories. I know I dumbed those two down a lot, but that is what people remember. I really think that Bishop's problem is just as stated above; he's lost his functionality. they're trying to find a place fore him, a serious place for him, and I think it might really be best in either the District X series or the Uncanny X-Men (the series following the XSE)

Complicated back story...that may well be...but had Bishop een say ...Cable...or Rachel(other time/relatiy displaced mutants who HAPPEN to be SUmmers AND white) then his history would have been fully delved into and explored.

Yeah he had Bishop the last Xman mini series...but that was a joke. Any interesting subplot involving Bishop has been dropped. Sush as Bishop and Gambit's rivalry, Bishop being the target of Dark Beast due to his invovlement with AoA, Bishop and his sister, Shard's relationship, hell how about an update as to where Shard is? Bishop and DeathBird's relationship? Do they NOT have a daughter named Aaliyah? Bishop and Sage? Bishop and Storm? Bishop's relationship if any...to Gateway....or M(he called her mother once).....all have been pushed aside.

The fact is that his possibilites for story expansion and to make him interesting and cool again ARE there...WHY aren't they being used? They are trying to make Gambit and Rogue popular again(and failing miserably) they brought Havok and Lorna back from obscurity and have given them some major spotlight as far as their backstory goes...But as for Bishop? He is good soldier boy, there to follow Storm's command or he is a 'cop'....and that is just...lame.

[Zoken]

okay, one, Cop, does not equal "lame". I like that they have a mutant finally aquire a REAL job. I'm sorry but most of the mutants marvel puts out, for their Occupation the list "Adventurer" Bishop is one of the few that has a real job. he is an officer of the law. I think thats pretty damn cool.

and you want to suggest that its because he's black that he's not getting enough press? oh my god! what about the ten million white characters that are written off into obscurity. they don't even appear in OTHER people's titles. Bishop is in two. and so what if he's following storm's lead? She's a good leader. also he is in two titles tht I know about. care to continue whining?

[OutcryX]

Dont put words in my mouth. And i did not suggest that b/c he is cop he is lame. I am suggesting that they DO something with it. And yes there may be 'ten million' other white superheros written into oblivion but Bishop is THE lone Black male X-Man.....lets have him do more than be the 'token' And I will "whine" if I want. I am voicing my opinion. Do not come at me trying to talk down to me about my opinion. I will say and do as I please. I will not further get into a discusiion with you seeing as you are missing my point. This thread is about a positive dialogue about Marvels mutants of COLOR...which Bishop is. Moving along...

[Zoken]

I understand that this thread is about mutants of color, thats why I kept the focus of my argument on Bishop. And I certainly hope my dialouge wasn't negative. Bishop is a great character, he can be used more. I just don't think that the reason he isn't is because he's black.

I didn't put words in your mouth.: He is good soldier boy, there to follow Storm's command or he is a 'cop'....and that is just...lame.

^ your words. maybe I misinterperted what you meant. if I did, then I'm sorry. I thought you were alleging that being a police officer was lame. again, my apolgies if I misunderstood.

and about him being the "Lone Black X-Man" you youself said there was also Maggot. there is also Prodigy and Tag in the New X-Men books. do you complain about Skin as well, he is the "Lone hispanic X-Man". I don't see him as a "Token". that would be my cousin (Seriously he has a shirt that says "TBG" on the front, and "Token Black Guy" on the back, he thinks its hilarious).

Frankly Bishop is in major roles in two ongoing titles right now. thats more than some have.

[Guyverjay]

Ahh yes....everybody should be familar with the Hawaiin King, Kamehameha. Dragon Ball after all borrowed the name for one of the series most powerful attacks.


Coincidence actually


The move was invented by Kamesennin (muten roshi) which translates into "Turtle master" which is what he is. Akira torayamas wife actually came with "hame ha" for Kamesennin's special attack according to the interview he did with Shonen Jump magazine

[OutcryX]

I understand that this thread is about mutants of color, thats why I kept the focus of my argument on Bishop. And I certainly hope my dialouge wasn't negative. Bishop is a great character, he can be used more. I just don't think that the reason he isn't is because he's black.

I didn't put words in your mouth.: He is good soldier boy, there to follow Storm's command or he is a 'cop'....and that is just...lame.

^ your words. maybe I misinterperted what you meant. if I did, then I'm sorry. I thought you were alleging that being a police officer was lame. again, my apolgies if I misunderstood.

and about him being the "Lone Black X-Man" you youself said there was also Maggot. there is also Prodigy and Tag in the New X-Men books. do you complain about Skin as well, he is the "Lone hispanic X-Man". I don't see him as a "Token". that would be my cousin (Seriously he has a shirt that says "TBG" on the front, and "Token Black Guy" on the back, he thinks its hilarious).

Frankly Bishop is in major roles in two ongoing titles right now. thats more than some have.

Maggot tho..is dead...for now anyways. Bishop is in two books but name your top 5 X-Men...is he in the list? more often 'No' than 'Yes'. It is because the writers will not do anything interesting with his character. Hell in District X they had to give him a partner who is having trouble at home just to keep the book interesting. That book is more about, I believe, Ismael Ortega than Bishop. When Bishop came back in time he was written as a hard core XSE officer suddenly left without a home or friends or family but had a sole purpose of protecting the X-Men from the 'traitor' now that he has done that...He has gained the friends, the family and a home. So let's push him to the back and bring him around every so often... I am not implying anything. Its obvious how they write him. I frankly, just don't like the way the character is being written.

As for Skin being the only 'hispanic' or latino....well he isn't much of either now that they killed him without reason. But there is also Rictor, Sunspot and...well damn...Skin would have been the third. There are some females: Feral and Thornn, Reyes...also Skin's ex girlfriend Torres who displayed some sort of telekinetic/telepathic abilities. Now there is yet another outrage, where are the Latino heroes, or Native American(Proudstar, Risque[she is actually part cuban as well], Karma....and?) not many from ANY minority. It is because most readership is NOT black, latino, native american, or from the pacific islands(Poly, Mico, Mela-nesian)[Mondo] or east indian[Thunderbird III], or arabic[Dust]? Me thinks yes. But that does not mean that the characters that DO exist should be written poorly or just given something to do to keep people appeased(Bishop being a cop, Karma being a teacher) Dammit im ranting. Just wish he were more popular and not understanding why he isn't, thats all...carry on