OMG, more deaths? 100th episode spoilers [Archive] - Page 2

Brainiac 8

11-23-2005, 02:50 PM

I doubt Jonathan is the one to go at least NOT NOW

A) Clark is still talking to Lex in Future Episodes after the 100th

B) If Jonathan died DURING THE ELECTION Clark will just blame Lex & NOT talk to him Period

C) Having Jonathan die during the Election will NOT look good for Lex & EVERYONE who knows Lex well enough will just Blame him & according to Future Spoilers it seems like Clark & Lex are still Friends after the 100th Episode so that is hint enough Jonathan might NOT die.

It would be MORE interesting if Lex LOST the Election to Jonathan then that'd give Lex even MORE reason to go INSANE

Remember though, any spoilers past the 100th episode have had disclaimers saying that future spoilers could be part of the false scripts circulating around. So nothing we hear past Reckoning can't be taken as fact. We will all have to wait and see.

AgentPat

11-23-2005, 02:55 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOO Pa kent must not die. i hate the whole idea of PA kent dying. I hated it in the silver ages and hate it now.:oWell, I wouldn't want ANY of 'em to die, but if it came down to a choice, I'd rather go with Jonathan before Chloe. (Chloe can die later LOL)

Guaranteed, if they off Jonathan, we'll still "see" him on the show. Mark my words. If The Sopranos could bring back Big Pus.... (um, you guys know the name LOL), then SV will manage to keep Jonathan in the show, some way, some how.

GinaRenee

11-23-2005, 03:03 PM

I appreciate it, Pat.

But just so you know, the person at TWOP is not the only one with sources. And not all sources say the same thing. ;)

I wish I could say more, but I'm not allowed.

avidreader

11-23-2005, 03:08 PM

I appreciate it, Pat.

But just so you know, the person at TWOP is not the only one with sources. And not all sources say the same thing. ;)

I wish I could say more, but I'm not allowed.

What's that supposed to mean? :confused: :rolleyes: :)

GinaRenee

11-23-2005, 03:12 PM

triplet

11-23-2005, 03:13 PM

I gotta stay outta here from now on....

crap. I didn't want to be spoiled on that point.

I don't know what to think now.

AgentPat

11-23-2005, 03:17 PM

Hmm.. So we're back we're we started: not knowing SQUAT!!!

LMAO!!! This is too funny.

Well, I gotta hand it to 'em; they've kept this one under wraps better than a LOT of shows can do, and considering the size of SV and its production team, that's pretty amazing. I wonder if they shot multiple versions? The finale episode for Sex and the City did that.

avidreader

11-23-2005, 03:20 PM

It means that I was told something -- on condition of anonymity -- that makes me cautiously optimistic. Not 100 percent optimistic, but at least a little bit hopeful.

I wish I could tell you guys. I really do. But I promised not to.

I thought that's what you meant, but I thought if I acted all naive you might tell us. :D

Actually, I dont want to know, so I'm glad all these false rumours are being released.

Pat, I didnt know they did that with Sex and the City. They kept the death of Maggie Grace on Lost under wraps too.

GinaRenee

11-23-2005, 03:27 PM

Nice try, avid. But I've used that technique myself too many times to be snookered by it. :D

AgentPat

11-23-2005, 03:32 PM

Pat, I didnt know they did that with Sex and the City.Yeah, in a big way. I had a... um... vested interest in SATC back when "Aidan" was a part of the show. (VERY LONG story) So I knew just about everything you could possibly "want" to know about the actors and story arcs. Like I said, tis a LONG story. Suffice it to say though, I'm glad it's ovah. LOL ;)

[Pat waves to James, if he's lurking. :D ]

Red

11-23-2005, 03:38 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOO Pa kent must not die. i hate the whole idea of PA kent dying. I hated it in the silver ages and hate it now.:o

agreed :up: make supes too much like spidey

Serene

11-23-2005, 03:51 PM

You all know that I'm in a carefully restrained state of panic about this, don't you?

:(

avidreader

11-23-2005, 04:01 PM

You all know that I'm in a carefully restrained state of panic about this, don't you?

:(

In regards to your panic, I always think back to Hereafter when we see Lana dying as an old woman. Doesnt that seal her fate or could things change?

Serene

11-23-2005, 04:21 PM

In regards to your panic, I always think back to Hereafter when we see Lana dying as an old woman. Doesnt that seal her fate or could things change?
Omg.. I'd forgotten about that. I think it was shown in that ep that the foretold "fates" could be changed.. but that does make me feel at least a little bit better.

You rock, avid. :)

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 04:26 PM

gotta love the old "miscellaneous poster on so-so forum said so and he just happened to be right about other things" so it's definitely going down this way..... To many people are making the easy assumption that its gonna be Jonathan now, without thinking through the repercussions of it. Having Jor-El take Jonathan's life on account of Clark would be a COLOSSAL mistake. Clark would hate Jor-El and get a MEGA guilt complex out of it. Yes, Jonathan bought it in Superman the movie but the fact his death was natural teaches Clark about the fragility of human life and how he cant do a thing to stop nature. If they off Jonathan at Jor-El's hands, you make Superman into someone like Batman or the Punisher...
Superman wasnt born out of guilt, thats the guy with the webs..... Al & Miles arent that dumb....If Jonathan buys it, it's gonna be Donner-esque and later on down the line, not one father kills the other....

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 04:29 PM

In regards to your panic, I always think back to Hereafter when we see Lana dying as an old woman. Doesnt that seal her fate or could things change?

yeah but didnt that change later to her dying in that fire that Clark pulled her out of?

KalKai

11-23-2005, 04:34 PM

This is his/her post

Nov 18, 2005 @ 09:37 AM Anchor (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3112634&st=14430#) Email (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?act=Mail&CODE=00&MID=26675) I just read a new part of Vengeance. " Maya" is now called " Andrea", and it is Clark's father that dies. As far as anyone else dying, I don't know.

This post has been edited by secretagentman: Nov 18, 2005 @ 09:40 AM

and TWoP is 1 HUGE TV forum.

Serene

11-23-2005, 04:38 PM

.... Al & Miles arent that dumb....If Jonathan buys it, it's gonna be Donner-esque and later on down the line, not one father kills the other....

This kind of brings to mind the whole thing about Jeph Loeb leaving SV and now joining up with Lost. I'm *totally* speculating here, or not even that, more like wondering out loud. I read his comments about why he left and why he's now writing for another show..but I can't help but wonder if there wasn't some fundamental decision made that he disagreed with enough to leave.

I guess I'm still a little surprised that he would leave SV, a show about Superman who is so close to his heart, and go from taking a break, to immediately signing up with another show. Of course, Lost is a HUGE hit, so it could just be a smart career choice as well. But I still wonder..

GinaRenee

11-23-2005, 04:45 PM

It's a minor point, but Craig at K-site has it that Maya is now called "Angela."

KalKai

11-23-2005, 05:33 PM

Craig's K-Site says November 21st, the person on TWoP said it on the 18th.

OobeDoobBenubi

11-23-2005, 05:34 PM

If Clark & Lex start hating each other at 100th Episode I do NOT see this Show going for 7 Seasons. I don't want to see Clark hating Lex / saying things to himself & hate that he is an alien even more for 2 & a half Seasons & Clark would be just the most stupidest ass in the World to want to hang out with Lex after Jonathan dying during the Election. Like I said everyone would just pin point Lex & blame him for it. I HIGHLY doubt this show will last 2 more Seasons if all Clark has is Martha & Chole to hang with :p & all Clark would do is mumble on how he hates Lex etc. Its just a BAD MOVE killing off Jonathan THIS EARLY.

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 07:12 PM

OobeDoobBenubi

11-23-2005, 07:18 PM

Clark's father = Jor-El

Just like in Donner's version of Superman II, Jor-El extinguishes his life force in the Fortress to give Clark his power's back..

Clark does NOT love Jor El though

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 07:18 PM

This kind of brings to mind the whole thing about Jeph Loeb leaving SV and now joining up with Lost. I'm *totally* speculating here, or not even that, more like wondering out loud. I read his comments about why he left and why he's now writing for another show..but I can't help but wonder if there wasn't some fundamental decision made that he disagreed with enough to leave.

I guess I'm still a little surprised that he would leave SV, a show about Superman who is so close to his heart, and go from taking a break, to immediately signing up with another show. Of course, Lost is a HUGE hit, so it could just be a smart career choice as well. But I still wonder..

I doubt the two are related. Loeb's role on the show was mostly as a consultant and he wrote an occassional mythology episode. He never really had much creative control anyway. I think him taking a break from Smallville had more to do with his son dying and him needing to get things in order, more than anything.. It has been about 4 months or so since he stopped working with Smallville... Where did you see that he took a job with Lost?

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 07:20 PM

Clark does NOT love Jor El though

when did love become a requirement? :confused: Jor-El merely said "someone close to you"... who was "closer" to Clark at that time than Jor-El?

KalKai

11-23-2005, 07:22 PM

Kal-El's father = Jor-El, Clark Kent's father = Jonathan Kent.

Jor-El also said "someone you love", and Jor-El is no major character, and if Jor-El dies, it'll be the 2nd death.

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 07:26 PM

Kal-El's father = Jor-El, Clark Kent's father = Jonathan Kent.

That's all semantics since Clark Kent is Kal-El. Heck even with your equations, using simple deductive reasoning, if Kal-El = Clark Kent, than Jor-EL is = Clark Kent's father, and Jonathan Kent is = Kal El's father

KalKai

11-23-2005, 07:28 PM

Still the person he meant was Jonathan not Jor-El.

avidreader

11-23-2005, 07:33 PM

I doubt the two are related. Loeb's role on the show was mostly as a consultant and he wrote an occassional mythology episode. He never really had much creative control anyway. I think him taking a break from Smallville had more to do with his son dying and him needing to get things in order, more than anything.. It has been about 4 months or so since he stopped working with Smallville... Where did you see that he took a job with Lost?

From memory, someone posted something about it in The Talon thread.

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 07:36 PM

Still the person he meant was Jonathan not Jor-El.

did he clarify it any further than that post?

Not that I trust the guy from Adam, just curious

KalKai

11-23-2005, 07:49 PM

No, didn't say anything else, even if it's false info, I won't be surprised by the death, these are Jor-El's exact words:

Jor-El: Your mortal journey is over, yes, but your eminent destiny is too important to sacrifice. You will return with all your natural gifts. Unfortunately, this rectification does not come without a price. The life of someone close to you will be exchanged for your's.

Jor-El: It's too late. For everything in nature, there is a balance. The life force that has been returned to you will soon be taken from..from someone you love. You're about to face your darkest hour, my son. But, remember: The lessons that we learn from pain are the ones that make us the strongest.

.. the only people Clark loves are just 4: Jonathan & Martha, Chloe & Lana, so everybody, pick 1 of those, and when the time comes, say "I was right". :D

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 08:10 PM

I went over to TWOP (which is like K-Site lite BTW :down ) and I did see that he never said anything else other than that. The thing with this storyline is that its such a closely guarded secret that the show has gone to lengths of putting out phoney spoilers for future episodes, so who knows what info people are getting? Even K-Site and DTS dont seem to know what to believe..

And you are correct, I just watched that scene in Hidden again, Lion-El did sneak that love comment in at the end. However I still stand by my theory. Having Jor-El knock off Jonathan or really anyone else human that Clakr loves is going to cause them SERIOUS character problems for Clark. I still think however that theyre going the route of extinguishing Jor-El, even if Clark doesnt "love" him per se. The line about it being Clark's "darkest hour" sort of lends creedence to that to, because Jor-El is the one who's providing guidance to Clark for his destiny.

Maybe Jonathan will die, but it cant be at Jor-El's hands because of Clark, it just causes WAY too many issues...

And if for some reason they do go ahead and do that, I'll tear em a new one in my review, the Kingdom will have to expand bandwidth to be able to host my rant :D

KalKai

11-23-2005, 08:30 PM

I'm with you, I don't think Jor-El is capable of killing any human, especially if it's someone close to Clark, but think, what if Jor-El is already dead and Clark just doesn't know yet? and WE don't know yet, and we'll find out in the 100th eppy?

To me it looked like he already extinguished himself in Hidden, and the other death will just be a natural 1.

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 08:39 PM

yeah I thought that too until he spoke to Clark in Solitude

Serene

11-23-2005, 08:40 PM

You know.. I don't really think it's Jor-El that's responsible for the imminent death. He's the one that explains it but that doesn't necessarily mean he has control over it. In Solitude, he as much as tells Clark that it's out of his hands.. the wheel has been set in motion. We assume that Jor-El is the one that set it in motion because of Clark missing his deadline to get back to the FOS, but we don't really know that. Perhaps Jor-El is just the messenger in all this. So even if Jonathan does die (or anyone else) it won't be at the hands of Jor-El.

KalKai

11-23-2005, 08:41 PM

oh I forgot Solitude lol.

GinaRenee

11-23-2005, 08:43 PM

Having Jor-El knock off Jonathan or really anyone else human that Clakr loves is going to cause them SERIOUS character problems for Clark.

Exactly.

But I worry that they might just be that inconsistent. They have been before. I mean, I've still got a major problem with, to take just one example, Jor-El brainwashing Clark into a zombie who couldn't think for himself. So you've got an important end to accomplish -- that's still not how you do it, by taking someone's mind and free will away (not to mention driving his mother crazy with worry for three months and keeping his father in a coma). Yet the problem was never addressed. Clark apparently never thought to say, "Um, can we talk about how you mind-raped me?" Seems like they thought we'd all be so awed by the flying and special effects that we wouldn't care. Well, they were great special effects, but I'm still bugged by that. JE's nothing but a utilitarian, and that's not much of an ethical system to train a superhero in.

Was somebody saying something about rants just now? :D All that long-windedness was to say that Hulk's right about how wrong that storyline would be, but I'm not sure I trust the writers to see the wrongness of it.

Serene

11-23-2005, 08:56 PM

Exactly.

But I worry that they might just be that inconsistent. They have been before. I mean, I've still got a major problem with, to take just one example, Jor-El brainwashing Clark into a zombie who couldn't think for himself. So you've got an important end to accomplish -- that's still not how you do it, by taking someone's mind and free will away (not to mention driving his mother crazy with worry for three months and keeping his father in a coma). Yet the problem was never addressed. Clark apparently never thought to say, "Um, can we talk about how you mind-raped me?" Seems like they thought we'd all be so awed by the flying and special effects that we wouldn't care. Well, they were great special effects, but I'm still bugged by that. JE's nothing but a utilitarian, and that's not much of an ethical system to train a superhero in..

I get what you're saying Gina, but I guess I can justify that by assuming that there is a "greater good" that Jor-El feels he must prepare Clark for and the details of his earthly life are secondary to that. Whether or not it's a "right" thing to do is hard to judge until Jor-El lays all his cards out on the table. My assumption is that everything Jor-El has done and will do is to prepare Clark for defending the earth and all it's inhabitants. Which is really a pretty good end to justify all his questionable means. :)

triplet

11-23-2005, 09:04 PM

I don't think Jor-El is responsible, like Serene said.... The ball's in motion and can't be stopped at this point by anyone...

KalKai

11-23-2005, 09:12 PM

so wait a minute, Jor-El can see the future then?

The Incredible Hulk

11-23-2005, 10:12 PM

Exactly.

But I worry that they might just be that inconsistent. They have been before. I mean, I've still got a major problem with, to take just one example, Jor-El brainwashing Clark into a zombie who couldn't think for himself. So you've got an important end to accomplish -- that's still not how you do it, by taking someone's mind and free will away (not to mention driving his mother crazy with worry for three months and keeping his father in a coma). Yet the problem was never addressed. Clark apparently never thought to say, "Um, can we talk about how you mind-raped me?" Seems like they thought we'd all be so awed by the flying and special effects that we wouldn't care. Well, they were great special effects, but I'm still bugged by that. JE's nothing but a utilitarian, and that's not much of an ethical system to train a superhero in.
.

I dont exactly think he was a zombie, I think he was Clark as a fully realized Kryptonian. The thing is he'll never be a fully realized Kryptonian as he'll always have human emotions. I can sort of see Jor-El wanting to immerse him in that for a while, but I do agree with you in that they should have Clark asking Jor-El, "well why the heck did you do that to me?" And then atleast create some plausible answer for it, whatever that might be.

I do give the writers/creators a lot of credit though as there is a lot of stuff put into the scripts even on subliminal levels with colors, lighting, symbolism, etc. I just think sometimes they paint themselves into corners. Having Jor-El kill Jonathan because of Clark would be a huge one of those, that they wouldnt be able to get of with the Superman we know.. Then again I just write bad smallville reviews and crappy movie scripts, so perhaps they can think of another way out of that mess...

Brainiac 8

11-24-2005, 12:15 AM

We keep talking about these different sites and the fact that several anonymous sources are saying they know who dies. Doesn't it strike you as odd that one site says Maya's name is Angela, and another says Andrea.

I don't know but it sounds to me like they could be those fake scripts that are said to be circulating around. Especially with different names on each of them. I think we are all being fed bogus info, and we really can't trust any sources until the episode actually airs. Unfortunatly that won't be till February.:mad:

As for what Hulk was saying, I think it will totally be plausible that one of the deaths could be Jor-El. The love for him may not be shown now, but think if Jor-El sacrafices his life for his son, Clark won't be able to help but love a father that would do that for his son. Just my thought's.;)

War Lord

11-24-2005, 01:08 AM

Clark does NOT love Jor El though

He doesn't understand Jor-el. However, if Jor-el gave his existence in exchange for Clark's life, he might understand everything Jor-el said in a different light.

Red

11-24-2005, 03:43 AM

so wait a minute, Jor-El can see the future then?

nope

avidreader

11-26-2005, 10:40 AM

I've been away for a couple of days and I've been thinking and weighing up all the repercussions of everyone's possible demise. The only one that I think that could die, without Clark feeling guilt that would destroy him, is Jor-el. It would be the ultimate sacrifice for the son that he loves and Clark will finally understand the sacrifices Jor-el and Lara made in this in this episode.

He will then be able to embrace his destiny without any feelings of guilt.

As to Jor-el already being dead, what and who is it that we saw inhabiting Lionel's body. It was some kind of life force.

And killing off Jor-el does not necessarily mean that is the end of him, we still could have holograms of Jor-el within the fortress, who is able to pre-empt the answers to Clark's questions, like in the movies.

GinaRenee

11-26-2005, 11:23 AM

I completely agree with you on why that's the only logical solution, avid. I just really hope the writers see it the same way!!

War Lord

11-26-2005, 11:24 AM

I completely agree with you on why that's the only logical solution, avid. I just really hope the writers see it the same way!!

Remember I suggested it first.

Look way back.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 11:48 AM

I completely agree with you on why that's the only logical solution, avid. I just really hope the writers see it the same way!!

Well I really believe that Al & Miles know how to write Superman. They know who and what the character is about. They have bent the mythos from time to time, just to add interest, but they sill know the heart of this character.

Which makes me believe.

AgentPat

11-26-2005, 12:00 PM

As much as I'd love to see this be wrapped up all nice and tidy - that is to say, no guilt trips - Jor-El is already dead. There is nothing corporeal to die, and a "will" or "memory" (as he first describes himself to Clark in Tempest) doth not a life force make LOL. Furthermore, Clark doesn't "love" Jor-El.

Sorry to say gang, I think this one's pretty much in the cards. And while my thoughts on who the Ace of Spades holder will be changes on a daily basis, today I'm back to believing it's gonna be Jonathan.

Excerpt from Starlog Magazine, #327, October 2004
Tom Welling, Dark Turn
By Ian Spelling

...That leaves Jonathan, who, as everyone even remotely familiar with the Superman mythos knows, must soon perish. The questions are when and how. This season? Next year? Of natural causes? At the hands of Jor-El? Lionel? Perhaps even Lex or, inadvertently, Clark? "In the [third] season finale, Clark is sucked into the cave trying to save his dad, but I don't know when they're going to [kill off Jonathan]," Welling insists. "I would just be speculating. I have no idea."

Serene

11-26-2005, 12:07 PM

I was rereading the interview with Tom in the last SV magazine and while talking about Chloe finding out Clark's secret he makes a 'joking' comment about how every who finds out dies.

Actually, he makes several interesting comments about this season. I'll have to grab it and post some of them later today for anyone who never got that issue.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 12:27 PM

The only other plausible explanation for say Jonathan being the one, would be if he sacrificed himself protecting Clark, much the same way that Alicia put herself in front of the bullet.

It would be something that Jonathan decided to do and that could possibly lead Clark into thinking that he needs that other identity.

If it were Chloe that died as a consequence of knowing his secret, and not revealing it under threat, then Clark would never tell another living soul and he would never want to get close to anyone again.

Hello Lois Lane.

rumpuso

11-26-2005, 12:36 PM

I really don't want Jonathan to die. I think it is too predictable and in the end, too devastating for Clark to recover from. I don't think Clark needs Chloe to become Superman. Right now, she is his confidant since Pete is no longer around, but he is who he is irregardless of Chloe knowing his secret. With Jonathan, his loss would be huge to Clark as he is his father and has shaped him into the man he has become. I feel that even though Jonathan's guidance in Clark's life has scaled back considerably, he (and Martha too for that matter) is still a very prominent guiding force in our future superhero. As for Lana, she is his dream girl; his first love/crush. With her removal from his life, it would be a crushing blow that he'd struggle to rise from, especially since his other lady love, Alicia, was also taken from him through death. That would be a major chink in his armor I'm afraid, but a very bold move if TPTB took this direction. I do know this, as Martha stated (and as a parent myself), it is not unthinkable to offer your life for your child's. I have to wonder if TPTB will twist this into a choice that one of Clark's parents inevitably will make for their son.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 12:47 PM

It wont be Lana. Clark and Lana's story is not done yet. It hasnt made that full circle, we need to see him tell her his secret, her not react very well to the news and then for them to finally come back together as trusting long life friends.

Chloe's pretty much come full circle with Clark, and considering she was the one that he left the FOS for in the first place, it kind of balances out, but I just think that her character is needed to drive some of these Metropolis storylines.

I dont want Jonathan to die, I also think its too predictable, but if it was to be him, the reason I said above seems the only course they could take without Clark feeling guilty for having given up his powers.

Having said all that Jor-el still seems like the likely choice.

Serene

11-26-2005, 03:22 PM

Here's an interesting question..Maybe it should be a separate thread, but I'll put it here for now.

If it was your choice to make, who would you choose to die in the 100th ep? And yes, you have to choose someone. To make it more interesting..name your second choice as well.

Lionel/Jor-El
Chloe
Jonathan
Lana
Martha

I think we can all agree that those are the top five candidates in the dead pool.

My top vote goes to Lionel/Jor-El - just because I'm not ready to part with any of the others.

My second vote goes to.. uh.. umm... damn, it's hard, but I'd have to say Chloe. We have Lois to fill her "role" in the show (granted, with a lot of tweaking), and I just think it's way too early to lose Jonathan. I refuse to give up on Lana or Martha.

GinaRenee

11-26-2005, 03:32 PM

1. Lionel/Jor-El
2. Lana (sorry, Lana fans). That said, though, I'd be shocked if they killed her. I really don't think they'd do it.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 03:35 PM

As much as I'd love to see this be wrapped up all nice and tidy - that is to say, no guilt trips - Jor-El is already dead. There is nothing corporeal to die, and a "will" or "memory" (as he first describes himself to Clark in Tempest) doth not a life force make LOL. Furthermore, Clark doesn't "love" Jor-El.

So who and what was possessing Lionel then?

What if Jor-el was able to transfer his life force into the Transference stone, as he sort of indicated in Hidden.

He's Kryptonian, an advanced culture, just because his body is dead it doesnt mean that his life force is.

When Lion-el said you will lose someone you love, he said it with some hesitation, which makes me think that he is hoping that Clark will come to love him.

Serene my choices are:

Lionel/Jor-el
Jonathan
Chloe
Martha/Lana

avidreader

11-26-2005, 03:37 PM

double post

avidreader

11-26-2005, 03:37 PM

Well, I'm clever, I got a triple post.

GinaRenee

11-26-2005, 04:06 PM

When Lion-el said you will lose someone you love, he said it with some hesitation, which makes me think that he is hoping that Clark will come to love him.

Yep, I caught that too. And add to that what he'd just said about hoping Clark would call him "father." I really can't see any other circumstances under which Clark would do so.

KalKai

11-26-2005, 04:21 PM

If Jor-El can't see the future, how does he know that he's gonna die soon? and how will he die? and remember there'll be 2 deaths.

Maybe he'll just transfer himself into someone's body, and die together with that person, I still have my doubts on Jor-El dying though.

I'm convinced on Jonathan's death, and probably Lionel's. It's all about the 3 father's, Clark still needs Jor-El he can't die, if he does he'll have to come back somehow.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 04:46 PM

If Jor-El can't see the future, how does he know that he's gonna die soon? and how will he die? and remember there'll be 2 deaths.

Well he appears to know that someone Clark loves is going to die, even if it is just to restore the balance.

Maybe he'll just transfer himself into someone's body, and die together with that person, I still have my doubts on Jor-El dying though.

Well he's somehow connected to Lionel so that would be away to kill Lionel as well.

There just doesnt appear to be anywhere else left for Lionel to go, other than out.

Lex has already admitted that he is the man that he wanted him to become. Lionel has done his job in that respect.

I'm convinced on Jonathan's death, and probably Lionel's. It's all about the 3 father's, Clark still needs Jor-El he can't die, if he does he'll have to come back somehow.

I'm just not convinced of Jonathan, its too predictable.

KalKai

11-26-2005, 04:54 PM

It is, and that's why it will happen. :D

The Incredible Hulk

11-26-2005, 05:02 PM

I'm telling you guys, read the script of Donner's version of Superman II, and all of your questions about this will be answered....

http://superman.rossiters.com/s2_466A-466J.html

GinaRenee

11-26-2005, 05:03 PM

I've read it. I just don't know whether Gough & Millar have read it. But I hope they have, because it fits perfectly. :)

My problem is I've come up with other theories in the past of what was going to happen on the show, and I've usually turned out to be dead wrong, so I'm a little leery of trusting my instincts now.

avidreader

11-26-2005, 05:27 PM

I'm telling you guys, read the script of Donner's version of Superman II, and all of your questions about this will be answered....

http://superman.rossiters.com/s2_466A-466J.html

Wow! That sounds like a powerful scene. We know in Smallville some of this has already happened. When Lion-el embraced Clark there was a transfer of light, as if he was passing his energy onto him.

As much as I'm all for this sequence of events and have been since we first heard of the upcoming death/s, I would still like to think that Clark still needs Jor-el for instructions. Or will he be able to receive his education if he once again puts himself inside the chamber like he did in Arrival?

GinaRenee

11-26-2005, 06:05 PM

Well, suppose JE "kills" himself and then Brainiac pops up again, and Clark has to deal with him all on his own with no training. Now that would make for an interesting turn of events! Not to mention making him grow up in a hurry.

AgentPat

11-26-2005, 06:58 PM

So who and what was possessing Lionel then?Ya got me hangin' by my thumbs. LOL I know what you know. Lion-El tells Clark in Hidden, "When this body [Lionel's] was activated by the crystal, it became an oracle of Kryptonian knowledge, a vessel to inhabit if ever you should need me. That time is now." He doesn't say anything about a life force, but I suppose that can be inferred if you're inclined in that direction.

What if Jor-el was able to transfer his life force into the Transference stone, as he sort of indicated in Hidden.

He's Kryptonian, an advanced culture, just because his body is dead it doesn't mean that his life force is.

When Lion-el said you will lose someone you love, he said it with some hesitation, which makes me think that he is hoping that Clark will come to love him.Okay, I'll give you all that. Hell, I'll even accept that Jor-El's "life force," or whatever you want to call it, may be ixnayed in the 100th episode too. But I *still* think Jonathan is toast. :p

Hopefully though - for all the reasons Hulk mentioned earlier - it won't be *because* of Jor-El. Clark can't have Jonathan's death on his conscious for the rest of his life. He can't feel responsible for that, at ALL! Jonathan's eventual death - whenever it occurs - should be of "natural" causes. SV better not mess with that part of the canon. I'll be very disappointed if they do. It's bad enough Clark still has Lana's parents' deaths hanging over his head as one of the reasons he's reluctant to spill the beans to Lana about himself.

Kaboom

11-26-2005, 07:20 PM

Ya got me hangin' by my thumbs. LOL I know what you know. Lion-El tells Clark in Hidden, "When this body [Lionel's] was activated by the crystal, it became an oracle of Kryptonian knowledge, a vessel to inhabit if ever you should need me. That time is now." He doesn't say anything about a life force, but I suppose that can be inferred if you're inclined in that direction.

Okay, I'll give you all that. Hell, I'll even accept that Jor-El's "life force," or whatever you want to call it, may be ixnayed in the 100th episode too. But I *still* think Jonathan is toast. :p

Hopefully though - for all the reasons Hulk mentioned earlier - it won't be *because* of Jor-El. Clark can't have Jonathan's death on his conscious for the rest of his life. He can't feel responsible for that, at ALL! Jonathan's eventual death - whenever it occurs - should be of "natural" causes. SV better not mess with that part of the canon. I'll be very disappointed if they do. It's bad enough Clark still has Lana's parents' deaths hanging over his head as one of the reasons he's reluctant to spill the beans to Lana about himself.

what part of the canon are we talking about? pa kent lives in the modern age superman right? he nly died in the movie version and in silver age superman i think. jonathan doesnt have to die at all and itll will still be consistent with superman comic lore.

The Incredible Hulk

11-26-2005, 07:39 PM

smallville is more closely tied to the silver age and donner films than it is to current continuity

M.O.Steel

11-26-2005, 08:23 PM

too late, i think that scene is already being used somewhere else

The Incredible Hulk

11-26-2005, 08:55 PM

:confused:

Sentinal Prime

11-26-2005, 09:25 PM

I really think Chloe will die in the show, I perfer her to Johnathan

AgentPat

11-26-2005, 10:49 PM

what part of the canon are we talking about? pa kent lives in the modern age superman right? he only died in the movie version and in silver age superman i think. jonathan doesn't have to die at all and it will still be consistent with superman comic lore.Unfortunately, TPTB seem hell bent on keeping SV free of "egregious inconsistencies in the mythology" with the Reeve films and by extension, SR. You're preaching to the choir if you say that's ludicrous, 'cause I agree with you. But it doesn't change the fact that right now, they do seem to want to keep things as consistent as possible, and that means Jonathan dies, soon. We'll just disregard the fact that Clark not only knew Lex and Perry White while still in high school, he lived with Lois, lost his virginity with Lana, and had run-ins with Mxy, Brainiac and Zod's disciples - all when he was still a teenager. We'll also gloss over the fact that Kryptonite is more common in Smallville than asphalt, Metropolis is three hours away from the town, Jor-El and other Kryptonians visited Earth in the past, and there's a transportation device ala Star Trek in a Smallville cave that can beam *anybody* to Clark's Fortress of Solitude at the North Pole with the use of an octagonal key.

Yeah, we'll just ignore those tiny little details. But Jonathan living into Clark's adulthood... oh no. We can't have that. That'll just be a glaring glitch in continuity, doncha know?

/sarcasm

<- Loves SV, and wishes they'd be left alone to do their own thing. I don't want to see Jonathan offed any more than you guys do. *sigh*

darkzombiemutt

11-26-2005, 11:42 PM

Jonathan MUST die.

As great of a character he is, he has served his purpose. With his death, the son will become the father. Clark will have learned everything he will needs to know from Jonathan by the time he expires, most importantly, that he cannot save everyone.

Besides, once he dies, Smallville will be forced not to fall back into the same old same old. The structure of the show will change and to be honest, it really needs to.

GothicPowerMix1

11-27-2005, 12:13 AM

But then consider this Season the LAST Seaosn if they are going to "Force" a big change on the Show which should NOT happen right now. Maybe if the ratings were dropping sure but Story Wise Jonathan is STILL needed. A big move like that = Season 5 being the Final Season. Otherwise in Season 6 & maybe 7 Clark will be the Stupid A$$ & will still want to hang out with Lex or not yada. Killing Jonathan is NOT needed right now. He is STILL important. Jonathan dying should be THE thing that helps Clark accept who he is & becomes Superman in Jonathans name. Jonathan should ALWAYS die of Natural Cause & NOT Jor El. Like someone said if they mess this part up then they are truly nuts.

Jonathan dying because of Jor El can NOT happen. Other wise that is just forcing the Story to go to a point it does not need to be yet unless Season 5 is the Final Season which it isnt. All I got to say is if Jor El kills Jonathan I won't be very happy. They will be messing up a BIG reason Clark becomes Superman & Jonathan should NOT die until Clark is ready to BECOME Superman shortly after his death.

AgentPat

11-27-2005, 12:34 AM

LOL@all the speculation.

Is it February yet? :D

GothicPowerMix1

11-27-2005, 12:40 AM

Haven't you heard ?

February has been skipped :p

jk

KalKai

11-27-2005, 12:52 AM

Jonathan is still needed? how is he still needed? and nobody is saying Jonathan dies because of Jor-El.

GothicPowerMix1

11-27-2005, 12:55 AM

too late, i think that scene is already being used somewhere else

Lois & Clark ?

If your talking about Jonathan being alive that is

KalKai

11-27-2005, 01:26 AM

It's pretty simple..

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/808/dead3ae.jpg

Dead, and..

http://media.putfile.com/gong15

dead. lol.

Everything is possible on SV.

AgentPat

11-27-2005, 01:58 AM

Bingo. For whom the bell tolls.

Seriously folks, I think people need to come to terms with this un. Jonathan's a goner. Chloe will eventually be too, as will Lionel. Hell, give 'em all enough time and only Clark will be left standing LOL. But it's looking like Jonathan will be toast first.

triplet

11-27-2005, 02:09 AM

I had vacilated on who would be toast, but in the end I think I agree with you, Pat.

Jonathan makes the most sense at this point, as distasteful as his eventual fate would be to most, I think Lionel and Chloe have more uses story wise than Jonathan at this point in time.

He's served his purpose. Martha said it in Solitude (I'm paraphrasing).

"You're a man. My job as a parent is done. I meet my death gladly if it will let you live."

That statement is as true for Jonathan as it was for Martha.

GinaRenee

11-27-2005, 09:11 AM

Don't you remember Clark telling her it wasn't true? And he was right. No offense to you personally, triplet -- I've heard many others say the same thing -- but the implication that your parents can just go kick the bucket the minute you turn 18, because they're not needed anymore, really annoys me. Heck, I'm 30 and I still need my mom and dad! And besides, just because they're done raising me doesn't mean they've fulfilled their whole purpose in life. I'm not arrogant enough to think they were put on this earth solely for the purpose of getting my sister and me safely to adulthood.

triplet

11-27-2005, 09:46 AM

Well, of course in real life your parents job being over as soon as you become an adult isn't true. I know that and I don't think that.

My own father died when I was a teen and I sometimes think that some of the stupidity in my early adulthood could have been avoided if I'd had his advice to go off of instead of just my mother's....

However, in a dramatic sense the Kents have done their jobs. And I can see that insofar as the show is concerned, Jonathan's job IS over and he may be a prime candidate to be the one to kick it.

AgentPat

11-27-2005, 09:47 AM

Well, you're both right, so to speak. In terms of having served their purpose, Triplet is talking from a literary POV. Gina is looking at the real life metaphor. In either case, losing a parent is a tragedy that nobody is ready for, be they 18 or 80, but it's something most people will experience at least once in their lives.

In the ever-changing world of the Superman mythos, Clark's father doesn't always die when Clark is 18. In point of fact, in some versions, he doesn't die at all. But we all know how SV is following certain plot elements from the Silver Age and more specifically, the S:TM/SR continuity, so Jonathan's death is inevitable.

But if this depresses people, lemme remind everybody that this is SV LOL. As much as they like to hit us between they eyes with realistic drama, the show is still a fantasy. The parable can still be conveyed, even if they break their own rules. And we all know how much the SV producers LOVE to break the rules. :p

avidreader

11-27-2005, 10:12 AM

Good arguments and speculation, from everybody.

I agree Jonathan and Chloe will be gonners, I just dont think it will happen yet, and not as a consequence of Clark's actions. They've been throwing us hints left, right and centre about these two since Hidden and it all just seems too obvious.

And as you say this is Smallville and they follow their own continuity, they just borrow from the other storylines.

Now just to throw something totally wild and crazy out there, what if Lana does die in Clark's arms, he thinks she's gone.

Later on Lex gets her back, revives her somehow, she has no memory of her past and sees him as her saviour and falls in love with him.

I dont know if anyone remembers the Bionic Woman, but I kind of drew that storyline from that show.

Basically what I'm saying is, that they could twist this and throw anything in there.

But I still think its Lion-el.:D

GinaRenee

11-27-2005, 10:23 AM

I'm sorry to hear that about your dad, triplet (even though it happened a while ago, I'm still sorry!). I hope I wasn't offensive or hurtful.

I do tend to conflate the real-life POV and the literary POV a lot -- comes from being an English major, I think. :) And I can see why a character sometimes has to die to serve an end in literature (e.g., Dickens's Sydney Carton or Victor Hugo's Jean Valjean). However, I don't think that's the case here.

And I sometimes think we all give TPTB a little too much credit when we try to figure out why they do things. Via the grapevine, I've heard rather sketchy accounts of John's contract dispute with the network this summer, from both sides. The accounts differ, of course, but both sides agree on the root of the trouble: The network thought it could save a little cash by kicking John off the show.

So much for Donner versions and Silver Ages and all the rest of it being the reason for anything.

Anyway, the dispute seems to have been resolved, and as I said, I've recently heard a bit of news that makes me hopeful, though not 100 percent confident, that the network will keep its word. But apparently you never know for certain with these things, so we'll have to wait and see.

The Incredible Hulk

11-27-2005, 11:11 AM

Jonathan's a goner....just not at the hands of Jor-El, and most likely not in Episode 100...

GothicPowerMix1

11-27-2005, 11:20 AM

Jonathan's a goner....just not at the hands of Jor-El, and most likely not in Episode 100...

100 % agreed

Serene

11-27-2005, 12:16 PM

343 posts on this subject so far. :)

We can speculate all we want, and even try to apply logic backed up with canonical references.. bottom line is that there is just no way of knowing. All bets are off. They certainly *could* throw the ball completely into left field and make it Martha or Lana.

Not that I'm complaining. I'm really enjoying reading all the varying opinions and reasonings behind them.

I still say.. Lionel/Jor-El, or Chloe.

triplet

11-27-2005, 12:29 PM

Wow... triplet has a triple post... ;) :D

triplet

11-27-2005, 12:29 PM

I'm talented, I suppose.

triplet

11-27-2005, 12:29 PM

I'm sorry to hear that about your dad, triplet (even though it happened a while ago, I'm still sorry!). I hope I wasn't offensive or hurtful.

No, not at all... Thanks. It was sobering a few years back when I realized that I'd seen more years of my father out of my life than I had with him in it.

The biggest thing I regret is him never meeting my husband, I think he would have like my choice of life companion, and he never had a chance to be a grand dad to my and my sister's kids. They're great kids and he would have been a wonderful grandfather.

I do tend to conflate the real-life POV and the literary POV a lot -- comes from being an English major, I think. :) And I can see why a character sometimes has to die to serve an end in literature (e.g., Dickens's Sydney Carton or Victor Hugo's Jean Valjean). However, I don't think that's the case here.

And I sometimes think we all give TPTB a little too much credit when we try to figure out why they do things. Via the grapevine, I've heard rather sketchy accounts of John's contract dispute with the network this summer, from both sides. The accounts differ, of course, but both sides agree on the root of the trouble: The network thought it could save a little cash by kicking John off the show.

So much for Donner versions and Silver Ages and all the rest of it being the reason for anything.

Interesting...

Things are sometimes done just because it's convenient (for whatever reason) not because it means anything. Fans tend to read more into things than was ever intended. True.

Anyway, the dispute seems to have been resolved, and as I said, I've recently heard a bit of news that makes me hopeful, though not 100 percent confident, that the network will keep its word. But apparently you never know for certain with these things, so we'll have to wait and see.

Yeah, I think ultimately we will just have to wait and see but in today's environment on TV I don't think anyone is really safe. (Except for Clark, in the case of Smallville.) It seems to be in vogue right now to kill off regular characters. Lost has already killed off several and apparently isn't done yet and Desperate Housewives is doing the same, from what I've heard.

Jack O Lantern

11-27-2005, 06:02 PM

I doubt they would tease Johnathons death in S3 at Jor'El hads just to have him die now by his hands. They wouldn't have set up Chloe at the DP just to kill her. I haven't read all 14 pages on this so this may have been discussed but does anyone think it could be Pete, he's Clarks best friend even if Chloe has taken that in role in his absence, they could shock us by bringing him back only to die. The second major death could also just be arecurring character rather than a main one, it could be one of the freaks that die, or the sheriff, somebody like that