Singers Vision Of Xmen 3?

[boywonder13]

All this infromation comes from news/rumors that came while Singer was on. He had written a treatment that only a few people have read. Reportdley Singer's treatmen went missing meaning he must have taken it with him or it is literally missing.

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- X-Men 3 would have come out in 2005, followed by the Fourth movie (in the same year) since they were filmed back to back.

- An Early Story was this: The film will likely be centered more on Wolverine's story and Jean Grey's transformation, while Storm may be completely absent or only appear in a cameo performance.

-New Characters in the treatment included Angel, Beast, Gambit, Emma Frost, Dazzler, and Psylocke. Lady Death Strike may have also appeared again.

- This was what the new treatment was about:
According to one source, the current treatment focuses on Cyclops, and as a result Marsden has apparently already signed on the dotted line. Director Bryan Singer is rumoured to have wanted to bring in a bunch of new characters, but was told "no" for budgetary reasons, though they may end up with cameos in the film. Emma Frost was apparently one such character considered, but ultimately dropped. As to the film being about Dark Phoenix, as the end of X2 has led many to believe, rumours have it that Jean Grey isn't in the current treatment until the very end, so Phoenix may be left until X4

-Here's a description of what Beast would have looked like if Singer did it :

The challenge with Beast is that most of the time in the comics he's blue and has a very similar hairstyle to Wolverine's. This meant that we needed to set him apart by accentuating his most Beast like characteristics. We tried to do this by giving him more of a blue-grey tint, covering him with a layer of fine hair and by making him extremely muscular. Our concept for Beast was never tested on an actor, but we could already see that he is going to be a great cinematic presence! We've made every effort to be as faithful as possible to the comics.

The Sentinels:
The Sentinels are something that Bryan and I were already designing even before the start of pre-production on X2. We wanted to have a specific Sentinel design in mind so as to better help Bryan and the writers incorporate them into the story. For inspiration I mostly looked at Alex Ross' designs of the Sentinels because they are simultaneously beautiful, industrial and eerie. I then made a visual chart of every robot ever portrayed on film so as to influence myself to come up with a brand new design, in the hopes of creating something truly original. Without sounding pretentious I just wanted to design something never seen before on film for the Sentinels! Currently my sketches are locked away and are waiting to hopefully be used in a future film...
View Pics of the Sentinels here: http://www.xmenfilms.net/exclusive/sentinel1.html

-Sigourney Weaver would have played Emma Frost.

- The general premise of X-3 will be both humans and mutants battling evolution itself.

-Early X3 Summary:Jean Grey is dead...or at least that's what everyone assumes. Everyone, but Professor Charles Xavier. He believes that somehow, his student survived the fatal events that took place at Stryker's base in Canada.

The Mutant Registration Act is close to being established. The passing of this act, introduces the SENTINELS program. Powerful and massive, these select mutant hunting machines, have the uncanny ability to hover above ground and capture unregistered mutants...but a threat behind the program, causes another frightening problem.

With the Sentinels introduced, the full X-Men team must ban together to battle against the government, deal with a fallen member, and even deal with a bigger threat!

The third (and possible final) film, could see the introduction of rumored mutants: Dr. Hank McCoy, Angel, Emma Frost, Gambit, and others. Film plot and character info are only considered RUMORS and could easily change...remember that!

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Anybody have anymore things about Singers X-Men 3.

I wonder what Singer meant by Humans and Mutants against evoloution. I bet they meant to use Apocalpse. I don't know.

I guess we will never know... (I pray the treatment is released or at least released)


:marv: :up: :)




- Nightcrawler would be back as an active member.

[aaron]

I know that he watched all of the 90's television cartoon episodes and realised the importance of gambit, he says somewhere that he would have a nightcrawler sized role in x3

[GreatWhiteWhale]

Two things:

In Singer's vision, Emma Frost was an Empath, meaning she could manipulate peoples emotions rather than thoughts, I believe this is how he intended for Jean to to 'lose control' and I also believe that Emma was to be involved with the Hellfire Club.

Also in regards to Humand and Mutants fighting againts evolution: the ultimate goal of Evolution is survival against all odds,so what happens when someone (Jean) reaches the pinacle of evolution and the rest of humankind and mutantkind are reduced to the 'all odds'?
When should the continuing 'evolution' stop, for the good of existence?
Where might the barriers be drawn? Who will make the last stand?


(Couldn't help but throw that last sentence in)

[boywonder13]

Yep.

ANother thing I will add to the top is that Nightcrawler would have been back!!

[boywonder13]

Two things:

Also in regards to Humand and Mutants fighting againts evolution: the ultimate goal of Evolution is survival against all odds...

(Couldn't help but throw that last sentence in)

That sounds like Apocalpsye to me....

"Survial of the Fittest"

[berzerko89]

Um... I would preferrably go with Ratner's vision.

[Electrix]

X-Men 3 or Wolverine 3?

[boywonder13]

X-Men 3 or Wolverine 3?

Well it seems like it could have been mainly on Cyclops and the new characters.

I guess it still would have bee Wolverines movie.

[CapBeerCino]

According to one source, the current treatment focuses on Cyclops, and as a result Marsden has apparently already signed on the dotted line.


These are hard days for Cyclops fans.
Don't tease us!

[boywonder13]

Yeah Singers X-Men 3 would have things people want to see but wont in Ratners like.

- Cyclops being a real leader

-Nightcrawler

-Gambit

- Less New characters but they would be fleshed out more.

[boywonder13]

Um... I would preferrably go with Ratner's vision.

Why?

[MoPlaYa]

Yeah Singers X-Men 3 would have things people want to see but wont in Ratners like.

- Cyclops being a real leader

-Nightcrawler

-Gambit

- Less New characters but they would be fleshed out more.

Singer is the one who screwed Cyclops in X2

[Electrix]

Singer is the one who screwed Cyclops in X2

Good point

[boywonder13]

He didnt really screw him up. He just didnt't use him that much. I beliee X3 would have been Marsdens turn to shine.

[MoPlaYa]

I think Singer would have screwed Cyclops again...to me Singer has made Cyclops look like a bad guy in the sense that he is getting in between Wolverine and Jean

[MoPlaYa]

I never said he screwed Cyclops up ( I`m sure he would like to..if you know what I mean)..I mean he screwed Cyclop`s screen time

[boywonder13]

I gues you are sorda right on that Moplaya but Jean would have been gone.

oh...I guess Cyclops would be some angry guy. I wish Emma Frost joined the team and she tried to get Cyclops to like her, but Ckye still thinks Jean is alive.

[MoPlaYa]

If Emma started hitting on Scott that would be cool

[Avalanche]

Why does everyone presume Nigthcrawler would be back? Alan didn't want to come back, and though he was contractually obliged, the liklihood is it would have been too time consuming to follow up such an action.

[MoPlaYa]

I lost all respect for Alan Cummings when I heard he didnt want to come back for X3 because of having to sit through make-up.... Because of his *****ing he isnt back and now we get no NightCrawler in X3...Nightcrawler is one of my favorite characters and I would have loved to see Nightcrawler and Wolverine build on thier friendship and hear Logan call him "elf"

[boywonder13]

No, Mr. Cumming was the person who said when the film was going to come out. He talked about when filming started and was pretty interested until.

BAMF

He's not even going to be in it.

Well Cumming said he did not even like Bryan Singer.

[boywonder13]

I lost all respect for Alan Cummings when I heard he didnt want to come back for X3 because of having to sit through make-up.... Because of his *****ing he isnt back and now we get no NightCrawler in X3...Nightcrawler is one of my favorite characters and I would have loved to see Nightcrawler and Wolverine build on thier friendship and hear Logan call him "elf"

"Elf" LOL.

That would hae been amazing.

I'm not sure that is why he was pulled out. It was because they did not have the budget for him and no use for him the script.

[MoPlaYa]

He did complain publicly about sitting through make-up and I`m sure that lead to his role in X3 getting smaller and smaller until they finally wrote him off

[aaron]

didnt have the budget....x3s budget is $225 mil

however it was lower then

[boywonder13]

didnt have the budget....x3s budget is $225 mil

however it was lower then

Are you sure that is the budget.That budget is darn high.

X-Men 1 was 75 - X-Men 2 was 133 million.

King Kongs is 207 million.

Do you have a link to where you got this news from.

That is amazing news than...Uncanny!!!

:)

[aaron]

Pm lightning strikez or ant or some one, theyll tell you

[aaron]

Kongs got their moneys worth with weta hehe

[Chasers1984(2)]

Yep.

ANother thing I will add to the top is that Nightcrawler would have been back!!

Actually probably not because it's a well known fact that Cummings hated working with Singer. He would've dropped out.

[Electrix]

I can remember reading something about having Nightcrawler in X3 with each development Nightcrawlers role got smaller and smaller. I also think they wanted to get rid of Nightcrawler so that there wasnt a 'blue overload'.

Nightcrawler got his screentime and development in X2.

[aaron]

Now its beasts and angels turn, although i wish someone else could get some exploration and development aswell

[aaron]

Ill have to wait another 3 years :(

[boywonder13]

Maybe only 2 for Wolverine and maybe the Yougn X-Men in 2008.

[Retroman]

I never said he screwed Cyclops up ( I`m sure he would like to..if you know what I mean)..I mean he screwed Cyclop`s screen time
Explain how you'd split screen time with 12 - 20 characters with out making it suck? Yeah sure, Cyclops could and probably should have had more screen time in X2 but people say the same about Storm, Rogue etc. You can't have it both ways, you need to balance things out with so many characters.Everyone wants to have their favorite character in the movies and everyones wants that charracter to shine. Thats logical.

I think Singer did a very good job of the movies + keep in mind(people always forget this)He NEVER got the kind of money that is been thrown at X3 now (200 M +). Danger Room, Sentinels, Angel, Beast, etc etc. were cut because they were 'too expensive'.

[Retroman]

I know that he watched all of the 90's television cartoon episodes and realised the importance of gambit, he says somewhere that he would have a nightcrawler sized role in x3
Yup, Gambit would have been in his X3 yes.

[MoPlaYa]

well its dang near impossible to give everyone the same amount of screen time but IMO Cyclops,Storm and Xavier should have the most seeing how they are the leaders

[lordofthenerds]

didnt have the budget....x3s budget is $225 mil

however it was lower then

Yeah I've heard that the budget was $225m somewhere also.

[lordofthenerds]

I think that Ratners version sounds a little better bcause if Singer was to direct X3 you might as well call the movie Wolverine 3. I mean I got what I wanted to know with X2 and they are going to make a Wolverine movie anyway. But the things that I like about Singers version are Sentinels, Gambit and Nightcrawler.

[MoPlaYa]

my problem with Singer has always been he never made the X-Men a team and work as a team....Hopefully Ratner can do that

[Retroman]

my problem with Singer has always been he never made the X-Men a team and work as a team....Hopefully Ratner can do that
So how did they stop Stryker and Dark Cerebro? I'm sure it was just Logan...

[LivingInClip]

If Singer would of done it, it would be another Wolverine film using the X-men as backdrop characters and nothing else. I'll pass, thank you. Let him go screw Superman up..
:mad:

[Retroman]

If Singer would of done it, it would be another Wolverine film using the X-men as backdrop characters and nothing else. I'll pass, thank you. Let him go screw Superman up..
:mad:
Yes Superman is doomed:rolleyes:

[Lightning Strykez!]

I would've been extremely dissapointed with this concept. To have Storm to go out as a weak, mousy, undeveloped cameo would have pissed me (and many others) off to no end. :down

I'm not happy with the idea of Cykes taking a back seat in X3 (if that is indeed what happens) but at least Ratner is giving Storm a more commanding, fierce role.

She'll actually get to have a personality this time it seems.

[boywonder13]

If they made Singers budget high his X-Men movies would have been alot better. We would have had Danger Room and Sentinels earlier.

I hate Fox!

:)

[logansoldcigar]

So how did they stop Stryker and Dark Cerebro? I'm sure it was just Logan...

Or at the end of Xmen. Sorm lifts wolverine to Magneto's machine. Jean uses her Teke to keep him steady, and Cyclops takes the shot that knocks out Magneto, enabling Wolverine to knacker the machine. looked like teamwork to me

[LivingInClip]

Yes Superman is doomed:rolleyes:

If you ask me, it is. I thought Singer made two piss poor versions of X-Men and glad to see the series change hands. I just wish he wouldn't go butcher Superman now. And this is from someone who likes Singer's other films, but I think him not being a comic fan shows.

[Retroman]

I would've been extremely dissapointed with this concept. To have Storm to go out as a weak, mousy, undeveloped cameo would have pissed me (and many others) off to no end. :down

I'm not happy with the idea of Cykes taking a back seat in X3 (if that is indeed what happens) but at least Ratner is giving Storm a more commanding, fierce role.

She'll actually get to have a personality this time it seems.
But you're biased being a major Storm fan and all.:)

[Retroman]

If you ask me, it is. I thought Singer made two piss poor versions of X-Men and glad to see the series change hands. I just wish he wouldn't go butcher Superman now. And this is from someone who likes Singer's other films, but I think him not being a comic fan shows.
Forgive me but i completely disagree.:down

[Jan Irisi]

If you ask me, it is. I thought Singer made two piss poor versions of X-Men and glad to see the series change hands. I just wish he wouldn't go butcher Superman now. And this is from someone who likes Singer's other films, but I think him not being a comic fan shows.


Opinion.

And if that was a wide ranging belief.....the second film would never have been made, and we wouldn't even be discussing a third.

Bottom line, the films may have disappointed some fans because they just didn't see what they wanted to see, but when the broader picture is looked at, Singer's films were not poor, they were well received, and also recognized right up there with the almighty Spider-man films.

[Lightning Strykez!]

But you're biased being a major Storm fan and all.:)

Doesn't matter. I'll feel the exact same way if Scott is vaporized in the first 20 minutes of X3. He too wasn't handled right and it's a shame.

Basically Storm and Cyclops have been bastardized in this series so badly that if they're finally fixed in X3 fans are not going to know how to accept them. And it's sad, considering they are the leaders of the X-Men. Of course, we all know they were pushed into the background was to make way for Wolverine to be leader...as if the first two films didn't focus on him enough. :rolleyes: So to have a third Singer film focus on him would've made me sick. :down

The ONLY good thing about this concept was Sigourney Weaver being cast as Emma Frost...that's a brilliant proposal. The rest? BLECH.

[LivingInClip]

...

Almighty Spider-Man films? I hope that is sarcasm. That is another series that has been butchered to death in the course of two films.

[RedIsNotBlue]

The ONLY good thing about this concept was Sigourney Weaver being cast as Emma Frost...that's a brilliant proposal. The rest? BLECH.

Your joking right?

Yeah but I am glad Singer left. It was time for a change. He never gave some characters the chance to shine.

[stretcho]

I can't say I'm thrilled he left, but it certainly opens up the possibility of fresh and exciting ideas. Did you like the first two movies. If so, why are happy Singer left?

[boywonder13]

It's hard to when you have a huge cast list.

You think Ratner will achive that with an even bigger cast.

I think not...!

[RedIsNotBlue]

It's hard to when you have a huge cast list.

You think Ratner will achive that with an even bigger cast.

I think not...!

Singer could have done it but for some reason he decided to make Wolverine movies co-starring the X-Men.

[Sean Madrox]

I'm pretty sure which ever director was to take the job everyone would find flaws so this really isn't getting us anywhere. Just bashing the two directors that have/are directing the X-Men films.

I also agree with Lightning that Sigourney Weaver would been a great choice for Emma Frost, also the addition of Gambit.

Do you think that Sigourney and Mardsen would have had good chemistry on the film, if they went with a storyline between the two?

[BMM]

I didn't know Singer wanted to add Dazzler or Psylocke . . . I think Storm's taking a back seat in the supposed treatment was simply due to the possibility of Halle Berry not returning, as was rumored at the end of X2 . . . which would have sucked . . . because Storm is necessary in an X-film (especially in more than a cameo appearance) . . . but I think had Halle Berry been locked for Singer's X3/X4, Storm would have been included beyond that of a cameo role (although most likely not given the increased status she appears to maintain in the current version of X3) . . . but you never know.

I also think Weaver would have brought much to the role of Emma Frost.

[boywonder13]

Do you think that Sigourney and Mardsen would have had good chemistry on the film, if they went with a storyline between the two?

Sigourney Weaver is old but sexy. She is 55/56 and Marden is 32/33.
Might have been "interesting"

[RedIsNotBlue]

Emma Frost/Sigourney Weaver concept art

http://www.macdonaldsranch.com/images/horseface-a.jpg

[berzerko89]

Why?

probably because, the script that singer was trying to create is quite complicating and has lots of important stories that needs more time and can not be fit in one movie with the other major impt plots. Phoenix StoryLine can go solo, so can apocalypse's and the others. just a thought.

[bosef982]

So how did they stop Stryker and Dark Cerebro? I'm sure it was just Logan...

LMAO!

Yes, wasn't it the under-developed, totally had nothing to do in the movies, Storm who managed to stop the machine from killing every human on the planet?

[skruloos]

If you ask me, it is. I thought Singer made two piss poor versions of X-Men and glad to see the series change hands. I just wish he wouldn't go butcher Superman now. And this is from someone who likes Singer's other films, but I think him not being a comic fan shows.
Yes. It shows he understands movies and how to adapt a work for the general audience without being a slave to the comics.

[bosef982]

I would've been extremely dissapointed with this concept. To have Storm to go out as a weak, mousy, undeveloped cameo would have pissed me (and many others) off to no end. :down

I'm not happy with the idea of Cykes taking a back seat in X3 (if that is indeed what happens) but at least Ratner is giving Storm a more commanding, fierce role.

She'll actually get to have a personality this time it seems.

Ratner's not giving her a bigger role. The studio is. Storm said she would only come back when and if she got more screentime. Kingberg and Penn designed the script with this concept in mind. Storm has a larger role b/c Halle Berry threatened not to come back if she didn't get a larger role. It has nothing to do with Ratner respecting the character or whatever the case -- it's studio politics.

[skruloos]

Singer could have done it but for some reason he decided to make Wolverine movies co-starring the X-Men.
Unfortunately, Wolverine has one of the more intriguing stories in the mythos that doesn't rely on a lot of history. The general audience loves the rough guy with the heart of gold. The fact that he's mysterious to boot is just gold waiting to happen. Is it any coincidence that he also happens to be one of the few X-Men who can actually carry his own solo title?

[CapBeerCino]

as if the first two films didn't focus on him enough. :rolleyes: So to have a third Singer film focus on him would've made me sick.

So now you have a Ratner film focus on him instead. (Yeah, yeah more Storm I know - how would you feel if it was her who's romured to be vaporized?)
I'd rather see Bryan's vision if it meant the two of them (Storm and Cyclops) taking the back seat but working as a team. (kinda like X-1).

[boywonder13]

probably because, the script that singer was trying to create is quite complicating and has lots of important stories that needs more time and can not be fit in one movie with the other major impt plots. Phoenix StoryLine can go solo, so can apocalypse's and the others. just a thought.

All of this is speculation and rumor. No one has read the treatment and said what is actually in it.

Ratner's film is cluttered more 'cause they are making it he last X-Men film (with the mani cast, not spin off).

Singer wanted to 3 and than 4 making it a much better and crafted story.

[bosef982]

Opinion.

And if that was a wide ranging belief.....the second film would never have been made, and we wouldn't even be discussing a third.

Bottom line, the films may have disappointed some fans because they just didn't see what they wanted to see, but when the broader picture is looked at, Singer's films were not poor, they were well received, and also recognized right up there with the almighty Spider-man films.


Very true. Singer is -- and I am bias but I can support this -- the generator of the modern comic book movie. Spider-Man's development awaited the green light contigent upon X-Men's performance.

If you remove the fanboy variable, the immense satisfaction that moviegoers have with these movies is apparent. They are both critically (more so X2) and publicly well-recieved.

Could Singer have done things differently? Yes, of course. But he had budget constraints. Look what WB's doing, they're not lassoing him with money, they're letting him some large free range. This to me says alot -- and I feel X-fans will be gnashing their teeth once they see SR and realize what Singer could have done had he had the support of Fox.

I hate that people act like X3 is so radically different from Singer's movies. It's not. Storm's larger role is due to Halle Berry *****ing, not Ratner's faithfulness. Beast being it -- nothing different. Jean Grey's awakening -- nothing different. Scott possibly dying -- different, but is that a good thing? Singer was going to put him in a larger role.

It's like the X-Movies themselves became horrible b/c a fanboy's particular favorite wasn't treated exactly how they're comic-booked bias opinion wanted it too. There's no cinematic integrity grafted into their judgements that the X-Movies suck -- just that, "It's not how I would have done it, so it must suck!" This takes an enormous amount of ego -- and an ego I don't think is realized -- to say something like this and to whole the quality of a film to purely your own standards.

I doubt Ratner would get up and say, "Singer's X-Movie's suck because they weren't done the way I would have done them." Such a statement is a logical fallacy. You may say, "Singer's X-Movie's suck because Storm had to take a back seat" -- but already in that statement is implied a preference for Storm and a judgement made on how you would have done it -- which has no relevance to whether or not the movie is good or bad.

Everyone turns their eyes when another character's role is shafted -- what about all Wolverine fans -- yet cry forever when theirs are. Then, you attempt to employ a sort of categorical -- a standard -- from your preference and this is where we find ourselves in that no one can be satisifed. Everyone's too busy *****ing and moaning and pawning of their opinions as cinematic fact that they lose sight of what makes a good movie: plot, character, spectacle, drama, dialogue, performance, music, etc.

It's really getting pathetic, as I see this "pawning of opinion" occuring more frequently now. Fans refuse to even look at the basic principals of cinema and see why some things cannot be done. I for one, am very concerned by how many characters we have in X3 -- this could hurt it severely. Fans may not notice, becuase we have a huge amount of personal knowledge to fall back on. But non-fans won't. And if non-fans are lost, we all know the movie is lost as well.

I am known as the raving Singerite. Perhaps this is true, but if I were to outline to you what I would have done with the X-Men, it would not resemble Singer's X-Films in many respects. Yet, however, I love the X-Men films -- how is this so? It's due to the fact that just because it's not done with my favorite characters or the way I would do it, doesn't mean it's not a good piece of cinema.

Fans need to get some perspective.

[Tony Stark]

Ratner had nothing to do with the changes in the script. Ratner didn't write the script, he was hired on after the script was complete. So this whole argument is pointless.

Singer did a good job with the dramatic sequences, but he had no sense of action. The only good action scene in either of the X-men films was the invasion of the mansion.

[Jan Irisi]

Ratner had nothing to do with the changes in the script. Ratner didn't write the script, he was hired on after the script was complete. So this whole argument is pointless.

Singer did a good job with the dramatic sequences, but he had no sense of action. The only good action scene in either of the X-men films was the invasion of the mansion.

No, the script was still being written even aftrer shooting began.

[bosef982]

Funny thing was, I thought that was the coolest thing about X-Men. They didn't rely on action.

Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man (although maybe Spider-man) can't rely on their dramatic premise alone. X-Men is the film that has come closest to that - to me that is a huge credit to comics as a legitimate medium of dramatic expression and to the talents of those on board who carried the excitement and interest through mere drama alone.

However, if to look at at action, we can see there was more than just the mansion sequence. The Tornado scene was fairly well done and cool -- and the Lady Deathstrike/Logan fight is awesome.

That's the percuilar thing about the X-men film, little action when compared to other comic book movies, yet still enrapturing and engaging to fans and non-fans alike. To me, that says alot.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Unfortunately, Wolverine has one of the more intriguing stories in the mythos that doesn't rely on a lot of history. The general audience loves the rough guy with the heart of gold. The fact that he's mysterious to boot is just gold waiting to happen. Is it any coincidence that he also happens to be one of the few X-Men who can actually carry his own solo title?

I never said Wolverine isn't a great character. But these are X-MEN movies. Singer had a personal connection with him which is why he got a big chunk of the screentime and development. And this caused the shafting of others.

[The Storm]

Great post Bosef!

About the first post, I heard something along them lines....I'm sure somewhere I read or heard about Jessica Simpson auditioning for Dazzler.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Ratner's not giving her a bigger role. The studio is. Storm said she would only come back when and if she got more screentime. Kingberg and Penn designed the script with this concept in mind. Storm has a larger role b/c Halle Berry threatened not to come back if she didn't get a larger role. It has nothing to do with Ratner respecting the character or whatever the case -- it's studio politics.

That's incorrect.

FOX was more than prepared for Halle to not return; that's why they instructed Zak and Simon to prepare script versions with and without the character.

Bryan was NOT going to develop Storm any further. Halle knew that. They had differences regarding it. And that's when the threats started to come.

Halle is well aware of the importance of Storm to the mythos. She was also likely sick of hearing the whining about her portrayal. She tried using her status to get better writing for the character. Bryan could've cared less, and he showed it by counter-proposing this "cameo/no appearance" concept to drive her away. With all the egos flared, understandably Halle said "forget it." (Surprise! :rolleyes: )

After faltering with Catwoman, Halle changed her mind, humbly stating that she would return even if it was for a smaller role. Unexpectantly, Singer quit for Superman Returns. Matthew was hired and he began the revamp on the character. With Singer out of the picture, and the proposal for Storm to have a larger role, naturally Halle's interest was peaked even further.

Suddenly Matthew left and then Brett arrived. Brett is continuing with the characterization, and as we can see from the trailer, she's got a more prominent role--as Storm should have. She, along with Cykes, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine are the most popular X-Men of all time. Bryan didn't "get it".

Things just happened to work out with all of this. Studio politics played a part to an extent, but Halle wanted to come back.

[RedIsNotBlue]

That's incorrect.

FOX was more than prepared for Halle to not return; that's why they instructed Zak and Simon to prepare script versions with and without the character.

Bryan was NOT going to develop Storm any further. Halle knew that. They had differences regarding it. And that's when the threats started to come.

Halle is well aware of the importance of Storm to the mythos. She was also likely sick of hearing the whining about her portrayal. She tried using her status to get better writing for the character. Bryan could've cared less, and he showed it by counter-proposing this "cameo/no appearance" concept to drive her away. With all the egos flared, understandably Halle said "forget it." (Surprise! :rolleyes: )

After faltering with Catwoman, Halle changed her mind, humbly stating that she would return even if it was for a smaller role. Unexpectantly, Singer quit for Superman Returns. Matthew was hired and he began the revamp on the character. With Singer out of the picture, and the proposal for Storm to have a larger role, naturally Halle's interest was peaked even further.

Suddenly Matthew left and then Brett arrived. Brett is continuing with the characterization, and as we can see from the trailer, she's got a more prominent role--as Storm should have. She, along with Cykes, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine are the most popular X-Men of all time. Bryan didn't "get it".

Things just happened to work out with all of this. Studio politics played a part to an extent, but Halle wanted to come back.

:up:

[bosef982]

No, the script was still being written even aftrer shooting began.


True, but Storm's confirmed return and expanded role were already completed -- BEFORE Ratner signed on.

[bosef982]

That's incorrect.

FOX was more than prepared for Halle to not return; that's why they instructed Zak and Simon to prepare script versions with and without the character.

Bryan was NOT going to develop Storm any further. Halle knew that. They had differences regarding it. And that's when the threats started to come.

Halle is well aware of the importance of Storm to the mythos. She was also likely sick of hearing the whining about her portrayal. She tried using her status to get better writing for the character. Bryan could've cared less, and he showed it by counter-proposing this "cameo/no appearance" concept to drive her away. With all the egos flared, understandably Halle said "forget it." (Surprise! :rolleyes: )

After faltering with Catwoman, Halle changed her mind, humbly stating that she would return even if it was for a smaller role. Unexpectantly, Singer quit for Superman Returns. Matthew was hired and he began the revamp on the character. With Singer out of the picture, and the proposal for Storm to have a larger role, naturally Halle's interest was peaked even further.

Suddenly Matthew left and then Brett arrived. Brett is continuing with the characterization, and as we can see from the trailer, she's got a more prominent role--as Storm should have. She, along with Cykes, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine are the most popular X-Men of all time. Bryan didn't "get it".

Things just happened to work out with all of this. Studio politics played a part to an extent, but Halle wanted to come back.


I'm not discreding Halle wanting or not wanting to come back. I'm countering your claim that Ratner is the reason that Storm has a larger role. It's not. The AICN script -- b/f Ratner's hire -- showed us that Storm already had a larger role. That's your argument I was taking issue with -- you were falsely attributing credit to Ratner for Storm's expanded role when it predated his hire. Sure, he continued to ride with it, but did he have a choice? Such a change would be unneccessary.

Singer "didn't get it"? Come on, Lightining...please. Singer got what was neccessary to make a damn good X-film. He got the philosophy, the character interactions, the drama and the spectacle of it all.

BTW, Storm and Cyclops are not key to the mythos of X-Men. Both members have at times been absent from the comics due to one reason or another -- if anything, in modern times, Logan is the key member and most popular member in the X-Men books. But, i'm not going down that road.

Also, it is common knowledge that Bryan Singer and Halle Berry did not get along. So, who's at fault here? Could the reduction in Storm's role just be a fallout between them? Perhaps, and perhaps that is wrong on Singer's behalf. Or perhaps - as is rumored - he didn't agree with Halle's acting skills and decided to sideline her otherwise. Could it be that Singer just didn't like the character of storm and found more interesting stories in Magneto, Xavier, Logan, Jean, and (if X3 was to come) Cyclops?

Everyone needs to stop attributing a difference in taste and preference as a defecit in not knowing source material, directorial skill, or cinematic prowess!

[Jan Irisi]

True, but Storm's confirmed return and expanded role were already completed -- BEFORE Ratner signed on.

Oh, I was just correcting the "script was complete" part. It wasn't.

[bosef982]

I never said Wolverine isn't a great character. But these are X-MEN movies. Singer had a personal connection with him which is why he got a big chunk of the screentime and development. And this caused the shafting of others.


You're not countering her point. Skulroos stated that Logan was the most inriguing character cinematically for the films -- he had the most potential to resonate with the audience.

[bosef982]

Oh, I was just correcting the "script was complete" part. It wasn't.


True, true.

[Octoberist]

Yup, Gambit would have been in his X3 yes.

(sobbing) Gambit where are you?


I rather not create this war between Ratner and Singer, since we're on the same boat. Let's get along.

I felt that Singer's version would of been more...thoughtout. Ratner's (along with the writers) had to re-write the script several times during the late pre-production. I'm not saying that Ratner's story will be bad, b/c I don't what it's all about, but judging from the teaser, there's a lot of things happening at once. Now, that could be good thing...or bad. It depends on the script.

Personally, I would focus onto the Phoenix and drop the 'cure' angle.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I hate that people act like X3 is so radically different from Singer's movies. It's not. Storm's larger role is due to Halle Berry *****ing, not Ratner's faithfulness.

That's not entirely true. She complained yes. But with good cause--the fan outcry over Storm's portrayal has been larger than any other character cast in these X-Men films. That's a documented fact. None of us have been able to recognize Singer's pseudo-Storm with her weak, mousy "I'm scared but anger helps me survive while I get my ass kicked, strangled, gutpunched, stabbed and thrown down an elevator." The writing, the wigs, the acting, the directing...it's all sucked consistently.

The studio has been listening to the fans over the last 5 years. Halle Berry obviously has been listening too, since she got the brunt of the complaints.

Bryan however, was not, and his stupid proposal to relegate her to a cameo or--worse yet--non-existence in X3 and X4 would've been the ultimate slap in the face for many X-Men and Storm fans everywhere. :o

You can only disrespect your fanbase so much.

[bosef982]

I would've been extremely dissapointed with this concept. To have Storm to go out as a weak, mousy, undeveloped cameo would have pissed me (and many others) off to no end. :down

I'm not happy with the idea of Cykes taking a back seat in X3 (if that is indeed what happens) but at least Ratner is giving Storm a more commanding, fierce role.

She'll actually get to have a personality this time it seems.


That's what I'm talking about. It's not Ratner giving it to her, it's the script and that role was penned previous to Ratner signing on as seen in the AICN script.

[RedIsNotBlue]

You're not countering her point. Skulroos stated that Logan was the most inriguing character cinematically for the films -- he had the most potential to resonate with the audience.

I am not saying Logan shouldn't have been the main character. But he was TOO focused on. Storm was a complete mess, Cyclops barely there, and Rogue nothing but a damsel in distress. I just think his large amount of screentime took away from others.

[bosef982]

That's not entirely true. She complained yes. But with good cause--the fan outcry over Storm's portrayal has been larger than any other character cast in these X-Men films. That's a documented fact. None of us have been able to recognize Singer's pseudo-Storm with her weak, mousy "I'm scared but anger helps me survive while I get my ass kicked, strangled, gutpunched, stabbed and thrown down an elevator." The writing, the wigs, the acting, the directing...it's all sucked consistently.

The studio has been listening to the fans over the last 5 years. Halle Berry obviously has been listening too, since she got the brunt of the complaints.

Bryan however, was not, and his stupid proprosal to relegate her to a cameo or--worse yet--non-existence in X3 and X4 would've been the ultimate slap in the face for many X-Men and Storm fans everywhere. :o

Well the fact that her acting sucked is for Halle Berry, not Singer.

Two, I'm an X-Fan and I actually love the concept of Storm. Think it's awesome. Would have expanded her myself. Yet, if she was camoed in X3 it would not have been an ultimate slap, or a slap at all, in my face. WHat does that say?

I'm not a fan. Now you're outline prerequisites for who is and who is not a fan.

[VincenFilmerset]

Google can be our friend ;)

Maze.

Q: Will Halle Berry be returning as Storm for this film?
Vaughn: Halle's probably the only member of the X-Men I haven't spoken to yet. [Storm] is in the script, I've written her a very good role without even knowing her. But I'm hoping she'll be enthusiastic. I talked to Fox, and I told them the only thing about Storm that was better in X2 than X1 was her haircut. So it's not going to be hard to give her more to do.


http://www.countingdown.com/features?feature_id=3709839

[Octoberist]

I'm glad that they are developing Storm, but I don't want it to be the Halle Berry Movie. I hope that they realize that.

Cyclops is getting a harsh treatment from the filmakers in X3 (from what we know). He's always been the one that was way underdevloped, moreso than Storm. Sure, he shined in X1, but now he's getting killed off (maybe) while HIS DARN girlfriend is on the loose?

There so many Storm fans here. THere's nothing wrong with that. That's why I was upset a while back b/c nobody was too vocal on Cyclops. It's like a "Crap happens" attitude taht I hated. With the Storm fans, it's like "Poor Cyclops, but our Stomr is becoming a leader".

Great to know...

[bosef982]

I am not saying Logan shouldn't have been the main character. But he was TOO focused on. Storm was a complete mess, Cyclops barely there, and Rogue nothing but a damsel in distress. I just think his large amount of screentime took away from others.


Oh yes, it most certainly did. However, remember the focus we had on Xavier and Magneto especially. The thing with Singer's films are they can be too subtle sometimes and I think alot of people miss the small character scenes in there. Oh well, what can you do?

I'm just saying, we have to ask ourselves a few questions while realizing a few things:

No X-Man film can successfully focus on all X-Men, or a large deal of them, and be at the same time a good piece of character/plot developed cinema. Can't happen. All ensemble pieces concentrate or anchor the piece done in a few core characters. Now, hopefully, X3 does this, if it doesn't however -- the movie will fail and be nothing more than action.

So, knowing this, who are the characters that have the best history to do the following:

1) open up the struggle of being a mutant?
2) explicate the consequences of being a mutant?
3) introduce and represent and harmonize with the conflict and philosophies between human and mutants?
4) posses enough room for a character arc that would mimic those philosophical concepts and ideas?
5) be fiscally doable on screen?
6) have the most startling impact on all other ensemble characters and produce the most conflict in the situations around them?

WHat I've outlined above are typical criteria one considers when crafting a movie. It's always about the conflict and the themes and the represenations. Going through those, I can see why Singer saw Magneto, Mystique, Logan, and Rogue as ideal frontstage characters, and in the second movie Nightcrawler.

[skruloos]

I never said Wolverine isn't a great character. But these are X-MEN movies. Singer had a personal connection with him which is why he got a big chunk of the screentime and development. And this caused the shafting of others.
Not just that though. Sure, Singer connected but there's a reason for that. And because he's obviously the biggest draw for the studio as a character. Sad? Yes since I'm not a huge Wolverine fan at all. It's not like the studio is going to say, "Give the most popular guy less screentime."

[RedIsNotBlue]

Not just that though. Sure, Singer connected but there's a reason for that. And because he's obviously the biggest draw for the studio as a character. Sad? Yes since I'm not a huge Wolverine fan at all. It's not like the studio is going to say, "Give the most popular guy less screentime."

Oh yeah. Forgot the franchise is at Fox. :o

[skruloos]

That's not entirely true. She complained yes. But with good cause--the fan outcry over Storm's portrayal has been larger than any other character cast in these X-Men films. That's a documented fact. None of us have been able to recognize Singer's pseudo-Storm with her weak, mousy "I'm scared but anger helps me survive while I get my ass kicked, strangled, gutpunched, stabbed and thrown down an elevator." The writing, the wigs, the acting, the directing...it's all sucked consistently.
Which is great for me since I've never been a Storm fan and Berry playing her just made things worse.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Singer "didn't get it"? Come on, Lightining...please. Singer got what was neccessary to make a damn good X-film. He got the philosophy, the character interactions, the drama and the spectacle of it all.



I appreciate and respect the fact that you support Bryan Singer. He deserves major credit for the many things he accomplished with this franchise. But he is not getting a free pass from me regarding this subject. Excuses are N/A.

Even if Halle Berry was miscast it was due to the fact that Bryan didn't understand the character. Bryan screened her. Bryan hired her in the first place. Bryan (and his team) wrote the characterization. Bryan (and his team) costumed her. Bryan directed her. This was all Bryan's vision for "Storm". It was Bryan who would've left the character a mess by dropping her in X3 and X4.

So at the end of the day Bryan ****ed the character of Storm up. Halle is not exempt from responsibility, but the process started and ended with Bryan. For me, the case closed.

Don't get me started on Cyclops. :cool:

[Milkman95]

Yeah, having Storm return in a larger role or a smaller role doesn't matter to me. Halle has been less than spectacular in the scenes she has been in. She better step up her game in this film. Cyclops is getting screwed over again but this time by Ratner, the studio, and the writers.

[boywonder13]

Dont forget we don't really know what would have happend to Storm in Singers X3 and X4.

Unless we get our hands on the treatment that is..

[tirminyl]

Like stated before, not everyone can have focus in the films unless your name is Wolverine. No one in the first two had personalities except him. It may also be the fact that I never have liked Wolverine because he is extremely overused in the comics. Anyway, I think all the characters can branch off into seperate movies because it will bring other new and fresh characters on the scene.

For this film, I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a Wolverine 3. GOD I hate Wolverine. He should have been dead already. He has the weakest healing ability of them all.

[green]

I appreciate and respect the fact that you support Bryan Singer. He deserves major credit for the many things he accomplished with this franchise. But I am NOT giving him a free pass from me regarding this subject. Excuses are N/A.

Even if Halle Berry was miscast it was due to the fact that Bryan didn't understand the character. Bryan screened her. Bryan hired her in the first place. Bryan (and his team) wrote the characterization. Bryan (and his team) costumed her. Bryan directed her. This was all Bryan's vision for "Storm". It was Bryan who would've left the character a mess by dropping her in X3 and X4.

So at the end of the day Bryan ****ed the character of Storm up. Halle is not exempt from responsibility, but the process started and ended with Bryan. For me, the case closed.

[SIZE="1"]Don't get me started on Cyclops. :cool:

You know I guess we'll really see what he thinks of the character of Storm when he takes over Ultimate X-Men...:D

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm glad that they are developing Storm, but I don't want it to be the Halle Berry Movie. I hope that they realize that.

Cyclops is getting a harsh treatment from the filmakers in X3 (from what we know). He's always been the one that was way underdevloped, moreso than Storm. Sure, he shined in X1, but now he's getting killed off (maybe) while HIS DARN girlfriend is on the loose?

There so many Storm fans here. THere's nothing wrong with that. That's why I was upset a while back b/c nobody was too vocal on Cyclops. It's like a "Crap happens" attitude taht I hated. With the Storm fans, it's like "Poor Cyclops, but our Stomr is becoming a leader".

Great to know...

I feel your pain. There is nothing more that I'd like to have Storm #2 as a co-leader to Scott. See, I don't think it's neccessary for her to be in a leadership role just to be a presence among the X-Men--good writing and direction can assure that. But what is necessary is that Logan becomes part of the X-Men--and not THE X-Men incarnate. :rolleyes:

The problem is, Cykes and Storm have been messed up so badly that it's going to take a lot of work to get them corrected. Vaporizing Scott will not fix matters (if that happens), and I agree the studio is not handling this correctly (if that happens). It's a waste...James is such a talented, underused actor.

[Lightning Strykez!]

...

[Lightning Strykez!]

You know I guess we'll really see what he thinks of the character of Storm when he takes over Ultimate X-Men...:D


:p

This time she'll be vaporized in the first issue! :D

[bosef982]

It's a waste...James is such a talented, underused actor.

As usual, I can usually find something we agree on. This is so true.

[RedIsNotBlue]

As usual, I can usually find something we agree on. This is so true.

I third it.

[aaron]

I fourth it

i remember that guy who reviewed the script for aicn saying that he didnt care about cyclops dying, and that marsden was basically a s*** actor, quote - James Marsden was never a particularly strong actor, and his only legitimate place in the first two films has been as the thorn in Wolverine’s side in acquiring the love of Jean Grey.

[HighVoltage]

Bryan Singer Sucks.

[MoPlaYa]

Very true. Singer is -- and I am bias but I can support this -- the generator of the modern comic book movie. Spider-Man's development awaited the green light contigent upon X-Men's performance.

If you remove the fanboy variable, the immense satisfaction that moviegoers have with these movies is apparent. They are both critically (more so X2) and publicly well-recieved.

Could Singer have done things differently? Yes, of course. But he had budget constraints. Look what WB's doing, they're not lassoing him with money, they're letting him some large free range. This to me says alot -- and I feel X-fans will be gnashing their teeth once they see SR and realize what Singer could have done had he had the support of Fox.

I hate that people act like X3 is so radically different from Singer's movies. It's not. Storm's larger role is due to Halle Berry *****ing, not Ratner's faithfulness. Beast being it -- nothing different. Jean Grey's awakening -- nothing different. Scott possibly dying -- different, but is that a good thing? Singer was going to put him in a larger role.

It's like the X-Movies themselves became horrible b/c a fanboy's particular favorite wasn't treated exactly how they're comic-booked bias opinion wanted it too. There's no cinematic integrity grafted into their judgements that the X-Movies suck -- just that, "It's not how I would have done it, so it must suck!" This takes an enormous amount of ego -- and an ego I don't think is realized -- to say something like this and to whole the quality of a film to purely your own standards.

I doubt Ratner would get up and say, "Singer's X-Movie's suck because they weren't done the way I would have done them." Such a statement is a logical fallacy. You may say, "Singer's X-Movie's suck because Storm had to take a back seat" -- but already in that statement is implied a preference for Storm and a judgement made on how you would have done it -- which has no relevance to whether or not the movie is good or bad.

Everyone turns their eyes when another character's role is shafted -- what about all Wolverine fans -- yet cry forever when theirs are. Then, you attempt to employ a sort of categorical -- a standard -- from your preference and this is where we find ourselves in that no one can be satisifed. Everyone's too busy *****ing and moaning and pawning of their opinions as cinematic fact that they lose sight of what makes a good movie: plot, character, spectacle, drama, dialogue, performance, music, etc.

It's really getting pathetic, as I see this "pawning of opinion" occuring more frequently now. Fans refuse to even look at the basic principals of cinema and see why some things cannot be done. I for one, am very concerned by how many characters we have in X3 -- this could hurt it severely. Fans may not notice, becuase we have a huge amount of personal knowledge to fall back on. But non-fans won't. And if non-fans are lost, we all know the movie is lost as well.

I am known as the raving Singerite. Perhaps this is true, but if I were to outline to you what I would have done with the X-Men, it would not resemble Singer's X-Films in many respects. Yet, however, I love the X-Men films -- how is this so? It's due to the fact that just because it's not done with my favorite characters or the way I would do it, doesn't mean it's not a good piece of cinema.

Fans need to get some perspective.



Singer should have named the first two films Wolverine and the X-Men

[Lightning Strykez!]

As usual, I can usually find something we agree on. This is so true.


Good. So do you care to address my post below?

I appreciate and respect the fact that you support Bryan Singer. He deserves major credit for the many things he accomplished with this franchise. But he is not getting a free pass from me regarding this subject. Excuses are N/A.

Even if Halle Berry was miscast it was due to the fact that Bryan didn't understand the character. Bryan screened her. Bryan hired her in the first place. Bryan (and his team) wrote the characterization. Bryan (and his team) costumed her. Bryan directed her. This was all Bryan's vision for "Storm". And it was Bryan who would've left the character a mess by dropping her in X3 and X4.

So at the end of the day Bryan ****ed the character of Storm up. Halle is not exempt from responsibility, but the process started and ended with Bryan. For me, the case closed.



Or do you think I have a point there? :p

[MoPlaYa]

No, the script was still being written even aftrer shooting began.

no it was complete but they were always rewriting parts of the script

[RedIsNotBlue]

Bryan Singer Sucks.


http://axe.acadiau.ca/~057712y/slap.gif

[MoPlaYa]

That's incorrect.

FOX was more than prepared for Halle to not return; that's why they instructed Zak and Simon to prepare script versions with and without the character.

Bryan was NOT going to develop Storm any further. Halle knew that. They had differences regarding it. And that's when the threats started to come.

Halle is well aware of the importance of Storm to the mythos. She was also likely sick of hearing the whining about her portrayal. She tried using her status to get better writing for the character. Bryan could've cared less, and he showed it by counter-proposing this "cameo/no appearance" concept to drive her away. With all the egos flared, understandably Halle said "forget it." (Surprise! :rolleyes: )

After faltering with Catwoman, Halle changed her mind, humbly stating that she would return even if it was for a smaller role. Unexpectantly, Singer quit for Superman Returns. Matthew was hired and he began the revamp on the character. With Singer out of the picture, and the proposal for Storm to have a larger role, naturally Halle's interest was peaked even further.

Suddenly Matthew left and then Brett arrived. Brett is continuing with the characterization, and as we can see from the trailer, she's got a more prominent role--as Storm should have. She, along with Cykes, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine are the most popular X-Men of all time. Bryan didn't "get it".

Things just happened to work out with all of this. Studio politics played a part to an extent, but Halle wanted to come back.


I agree 100% :up:

[Milkman95]

Bryan Singer Sucks.


Insightful. You're probably one of the many hypocrites that jumps from bandwagon to bandwagon. Clown.................

[HighVoltage]

Insightful. You're probably one of the many hypocrites that jumps from bandwagon to bandwagon. Clown.................

Hypocrite? about what?

[MoPlaYa]

I appreciate and respect the fact that you support Bryan Singer. He deserves major credit for the many things he accomplished with this franchise. But he is not getting a free pass from me regarding this subject. Excuses are N/A.

Even if Halle Berry was miscast it was due to the fact that Bryan didn't understand the character. Bryan screened her. Bryan hired her in the first place. Bryan (and his team) wrote the characterization. Bryan (and his team) costumed her. Bryan directed her. This was all Bryan's vision for "Storm". It was Bryan who would've left the character a mess by dropping her in X3 and X4.

So at the end of the day Bryan ****ed the character of Storm up. Halle is not exempt from responsibility, but the process started and ended with Bryan. For me, the case closed.

Don't get me started on Cyclops. :cool:

Amen Brotha!! :up:

[MoPlaYa]

For this film, I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a Wolverine 3. GOD I hate Wolverine. He should have been dead already. He has the weakest healing ability of them all.

WTF are you talking about???

[HighVoltage]

http://axe.acadiau.ca/%7E057712y/slap.gif

Ah yes, now I understand, I forgot Singer fans are defending him from the real critics.

Anyway Bryan Singer Sucks.:down

[MoPlaYa]

I fourth it

i remember that guy who reviewed the script for aicn saying that he didnt care about cyclops dying, and that marsden was basically a s*** actor, quote - James Marsden was never a particularly strong actor, and his only legitimate place in the first two films has been as the thorn in Wolverine’s side in acquiring the love of Jean Grey.

Well thats how Singer made him look and act

[Milkman95]

Hypocrite? about what?

I've read your close-minded hypocritical posts in multiple threads. No need to explain.

[HighVoltage]

I've read your close-minded hypocritical posts in multiple threads. No need to explain.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DACrowe]

Well all this says is Singer would've made a superior X-Men movie than Ratner's "studio first, quality second" hit and run deal (and remember the studio made most of the decisions on FF too though :eek: ) but Fox bullied him and he went to do SR which will probably be better than X3 as well.

Thanks Fox. Oh well. Maybe Spider-Man will be the first superhero franchise to make it to 3 solid good movies.

[X-Maniac]

I think it has worked out well that Singer has moved on... I don't think he would have brought the right sense of climax, scale and power to X3.

Cyclops was poorly treated in X1 and X2 - walked over by Wolverine in X1, absent for most of X2. And now studio politics might affect what becomes of Cyclops in X3. We won't know for sure till next May.

I also would not want Storm reduced in the way Singer wanted in X3. She had some good moments of powers/FX, but a poor portrayal of who the character is. Not Halle's fault. She wouldn't have been the first choice for Storm that popped into my head, but it looks like X3 is getting it right finally.

[Retroman]

Doesn't matter. I'll feel the exact same way if Scott is vaporized in the first 20 minutes of X3. He too wasn't handled right and it's a shame.

Basically Storm and Cyclops have been bastardized in this series so badly that if they're finally fixed in X3 fans are not going to know how to accept them. And it's sad, considering they are the leaders of the X-Men. Of course, we all know they were pushed into the background was to make way for Wolverine to be leader...as if the first two films didn't focus on him enough. :rolleyes: So to have a third Singer film focus on him would've made me sick. :down

The ONLY good thing about this concept was Sigourney Weaver being cast as Emma Frost...that's a brilliant proposal. The rest? BLECH.
So what if you're a fan of Pyro, Iceman, Rogue etc etc? Those characters deserve development too don't they not only the almighty Storm. If i remember correctly Bryan wanted to shoot a Storm and Cyclops origin sequence but didn't get the time and money to complete it.

You think the idea of Beast, Gambit, Sentinels, Danger Room and concentrating on Dark Phoenix etc are blech?:(

[The Guard]

Even if Halle Berry was miscast it was due to the fact that Bryan didn't understand the character. Bryan screened her. Bryan hired her in the first place. Bryan (and his team) wrote the characterization. Bryan (and his team) costumed her. Bryan directed her. This was all Bryan's vision for "Storm". It was Bryan who would've left the character a mess by dropping her in X3 and X4.

I don't buy it. One, I don't think Bryan Singer wanted Halle Berry, at least as his first or second choice. They fought almost constantly on the set of X-MEN. There is far too much evidence to point to the fact that FOX said "Hey, we're not going to cast for you, but there's this Halle Berry chick you should take a long, hard look at". Also, Storm is not written as meek and mousy in the X-MEN script, or the X2 script. These are acting choices Halle Berry made, in the same vein as most of her acting choices in her other action roles. The woman just does not do "intense" well unless she is ****ing or crying. Does Bryan Singer share some of the blame for her subpar performance in X-MEN? I guess. But remember, he was also pressed for time, and not in any position to tell THE Halle Berry how to act.

i remember that guy who reviewed the script for aicn saying that he didnt care about cyclops dying, and that marsden was basically a s*** actor, quote - James Marsden was never a particularly strong actor, and his only legitimate place in the first two films has been as the thorn in Wolverine’s side in acquiring the love of Jean Grey.

Cyclops was poorly treated in X1 and X2 - walked over by Wolverine in X1, absent for most of X2. And now studio politics might affect what becomes of Cyclops in X3. We won't know for sure till next May.

Jesus tapdancing Christ...

Poorly treated in terms of character or in terms of how much respect his character got in terms of screentime. Because he was not poorly treated in either film. He was Cyclops. Examples please, of why you all think he was treated so badly.

[Retroman]

I feel your pain. There is nothing more that I'd like to have Storm #2 as a co-leader to Scott. See, I don't think it's neccessary for her to be in a leadership role just to be a presence among the X-Men--good writing and direction can assure that. But what is necessary is that Logan becomes part of the X-Men--and not THE X-Men incarnate. :rolleyes:

The problem is, Cykes and Storm have been messed up so badly that it's going to take a lot of work to get them corrected. Vaporizing Scott will not fix matters (if that happens), and I agree the studio is not handling this correctly (if that happens). It's a waste...James is such a talented, underused actor.
Vaporizing Cyclops is not Singers fault. The new team wrote that in the script and this before he even signed for supes i think.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Ah yes, now I understand, I forgot Singer fans are defending him from the real critics.

Anyway Bryan Singer Sucks.:down


He had flaws in his films but they were still great films. And I have a feeling if he were still on board you would be washing his feet.

[weatherwitch]

Every one has a favorite character, a favorite genre, and an ideal that they would like to see on screen, so there are no truly unbiased opinions--especially on a thread such as this. To pretend otherwise is denying a simple truth that people like what people like. Period. However, one can take an appreciative look at something that may not be exactly what we'd like to see, and give it it's due. Having said that I think Singer is a fine director most times. I loved The Triangle on Sci-Fi and thought the characters were really well developed. He's young, talented and full of potential. ;)

Having said that, I ask how anyone can argue Ratner's vision from a leaked script and a 1 minute 39 second trailer? It's a bit ridiculous to assume you can. We've all seen the first two movies, and have a pretty good grasp of how Singer handled the characters. I myself disliked Singer's rendition of almost every character in the first two movies. (In my opinion before you direct a movie about comic book characters, you should--I don't know read the comics.) But I can't fault him entirely for that. The scripts and production and studios have a lot of pull. There has been statements from different sources that the actors in the first two films had an awkward if not openly hostile working relationship with Singer, so regardless of vision, I think a new director was needed to allow for maximum creativity.
Singer's ideas for X-3 draw on a few characters and concepts that are well loved, such as Gambit and the sentinels. As far as Gambit is concerned (and I LOVE the Ragin' Cajun) Singer had no idea of his worth until watching the 90's cartoons? Puh-lease. If he was that clueless as to the X-Men comics and the largest fanbases, he shouldn't have grabbed the reigns. I'd love to see Gambit X3, but for reasons unknown, he isn't in it. I'll deal.
Now, I hate the idea of Cyke biting it in the first few minutes, and I vehemently hope that's not true, and if the first two movies had made him a more prominent character I could see the dramatic worth of such a sacrafice, however the big flaw in that is we never grew to care enough about Cyke in the first two films. Or any other character really. If I had never read a comic (and some people haven't) aside from Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier and Magneto, I couldn't of cared less about the characters of the first two films, and that is a big flaw in any movie.

I have not seen Ratner's version of these characters for more than a few moments--nor has anyone else on this thread that I know of--so to try and compare visions is a bit premature.

Complaints such as Singer sucks and Ratner Blows are opinions, and mostly seconded or thirded by several members on either side of the fence--but getting angry and discontent becasue someone doesn't agree with your opinion. (Example SR vs. X3) is a bit juevinile. State an opinion, argue it, make a valid point, but in an effort to validate one's own arguement I'd try and reduce the name calling and personal jabs (unless of course you know the person personally, then feel free to call them a hypocritical douchbag) otherwise you sound like a whiny child who isn't getting their way. :D

[bosef982]

Good. So do you care to address my post below?



Or do you think I have a point there? :p

I don't give Bryan a free pass. I think he just prioritized. No movie is going to be perfect. However, it is a pity that Storm had to be the imperfection, and it alienates some fans. But, as I said, this does not neccessarily make it a bad movie or a bad X-Men film or is the fact that he messed her up indicative of the fact that he didn't "get" X-Men. I think that term you used was a bit X-Treme. perhaps he didn't get STorm, get Cyclops, but he as a totality, flaws and all, he got the X-Men.

That's what I was taking issue with. You used Storm as a litmus test for "understanding" X-Men. I think that's a bit of a exaggeration. I'm not defending his treatment of Storm so much as understanding why it is that way. Cinema produces challenges. More time on Storm would have come at the expense of another character -- then we'd have another (insert X-Men here)-fan coming on and complaining that Singer messed that up.

Fans put him in a Catch-22 and while doing so, refuse to acknowledge they put him there. It's unfair.

[X-Maniac]

I don't buy it. One, I don't think Bryan Singer wanted Halle Berry, at least as his first or second choice.

Quote your source, give your evidence

They fought almost constantly on the set of X-MEN.


We've heard rumours of an argument in which she said 'Kiss my black ass' but that's all and that does not amount to almost constantly by my reckoning. Present your evidence for this statement.

There is far too much evidence to point to the fact that FOX said "Hey, we're not going to cast for you, but there's this Halle Berry chick you should take a long, hard look at".

Far too much evidence? Let's see it please.

Also, Storm is not written as meek and mousy in the X-MEN script, or the X2 script.

Again, present your evidence.


These are acting choices Halle Berry made, in the same vein as most of her acting choices in her other action roles. The woman just does not do "intense" well unless she is ****ing or crying. Does Bryan Singer share some of the blame for her subpar performance in X-MEN? I guess. But remember, he was also pressed for time, and not in any position to tell THE Halle Berry how to act.

'Acting choices'? The cast were not allowed to refer to the comicbook sources, it was Bryan's directing they had to follow. I wouldn't say it was a 'sub-par performance' either, it was not the acting, it was the portrayal (the lines, the characterisation).

Poorly treated in terms of character or in terms of how much respect his character got in terms of screentime. Because he was not poorly treated in either film. He was Cyclops. Examples please, of why you all think he was treated so badly.

I gave my examples. A man who should be a competent, authoritative leader bellyflopped the X-jet, thus giving Wolverine the chance to mock his flight skills. A man who should be leading the way allowed Wolverine to call him a 'dick' and just answered 'okay'. Bryan's favouritism for Wolverine shines likes a beacon here. And in X2, although he got to do some defensive beam-firing and fisticuffs at the prison, he is then absent for much of the rest of the movie, suddenly appearing (no one sees him being freed, he is just staggering around). It's not what i would call a portrayal of a commanding, competent leader. Nothing like the source material, nothing like how ANY leader should be portrayed.

[cookiva]

Bryan Singer Sucks.


The same might be said for you.....

[Pickle-El]

That's not entirely true. She complained yes. But with good cause--the fan outcry over Storm's portrayal has been larger than any other character cast in these X-Men films. That's a documented fact. None of us have been able to recognize Singer's pseudo-Storm with her weak, mousy "I'm scared but anger helps me survive while I get my ass kicked, strangled, gutpunched, stabbed and thrown down an elevator." The writing, the wigs, the acting, the directing...it's all sucked consistently.

The studio has been listening to the fans over the last 5 years. Halle Berry obviously has been listening too, since she got the brunt of the complaints.

Bryan however, was not, and his stupid proposal to relegate her to a cameo or--worse yet--non-existence in X3 and X4 would've been the ultimate slap in the face for many X-Men and Storm fans everywhere. :o

You can only disrespect your fanbase so much.

See, this is the problem I have with Storm suddenly being the hero. It's not that the character doesn't deserve it, it's just that I personally feel Halle Berry can't pull it off. She doesn't have the commanding presence that Storm should have....She just doesn't, no amount of Special FX will change that.

I blame FOX and Singer for that in the first place. She shouldn't have been cast. Though from what I've heard, she was the 'studio choice' for the role. And Singer actually wanted Angela Bassett.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I don't buy it. One, I don't think Bryan Singer wanted Halle Berry, at least as his first or second choice. They fought almost constantly on the set of X-MEN. There is far too much evidence to point to the fact that FOX said "Hey, we're not going to cast for you, but there's this Halle Berry chick you should take a long, hard look at". Also, Storm is not written as meek and mousy in the X-MEN script, or the X2 script. These are acting choices Halle Berry made, in the same vein as most of her acting choices in her other action roles. The woman just does not do "intense" well unless she is ****ing or crying. Does Bryan Singer share some of the blame for her subpar performance in X-MEN? I guess. But remember, he was also pressed for time, and not in any position to tell THE Halle Berry how to act.



Okay. Let's look at the first film, shall we?

Tell me: Was it Halle Berry then who forced Bryan and his writers to make the "Storm" character do the following?

*Get strangled

*Smashed against glass

*Get kicked in the face

*Send carreening into various displays

*Get kicked in the stomach

*Get thrown down an elevator shaft

*Get gut-punched in the stomach

*Get stabbed (although technically that was really a morph, but Storm was still used)

*Say out-of-character lines i.e. "I can't control it like that", "I can't!" etc.

*Give the character the worst punchline in comic moviedom history

And that's just from the first film. Pray do tell, why wasn't Jean or Cyclops treated in a similar manner? Why should Storm get the lion's share of whoop-a$$?

These events spelled out one character trait for Storm to moviegoers: WEAKNESS. She can't fight, defend herself, and the baddies go straight for her and kick her ass. She only gets a lightning bolt in after she's had some time to recuperate and get some prep time in the elevator shaft! :rolleyes: And if you read the reviews and the fans' displeasure that was the unifying theme among all--Storm was weak.

Now, who's responsible for that characterization Guard? Who is to blame for not giving the character much of anything else to do accept get her a$$ stomped throughout the first film? Who directed this "first impression" of the cinematic version of a character who is known to be a commanding Warrior "Goddess"? Halle? :o

True, to an extent Halle's responsible for her tone of voice with her lines, but even that can be directed--for example: the magically dissappearing African accent in X2--at Bryan's demand. :o . And of course, lacking the star power then that she has now, Halle didn't determine her own lines or screen time for those first two films. Bryan and the writers did.

I don't care if Halle and Bryan didn't get along. I don't care if Fox did insist that Bryan add Storm for diversity. Do such factors give him the go-ahead to make her into some unmitigated disaster? Was he getting some sort of latent revenge by treating her like ****? :rolleyes: That's real mature. :rolleyes:

And even if he simply didn't know much about Storm as a character, he should've done his homework and directed the character more accurately. Remember, Bryan got Wolverine, Magneto, Jean, Xavier and Scott right (more or less), so to screw Storm up says something--not about his talent--but about his motives and appreciation for the character.


It's not like he's not capable.

[X-Maniac]

See, this is the problem I have with Storm suddenly being the hero. It's not that the character doesn't deserve it, it's just that I personally feel Halle Berry can't pull it off. She doesn't have the commanding presence that Storm should have....She just doesn't, no amount of Special FX will change that.

I blame FOX and Singer for that in the first place. She shouldn't have been cast. Though from what I've heard, she was the 'studio choice' for the role. And Singer actually wanted Angela Bassett.

But Angela apparently didn't want it, and she may not have been the right look (judge from the Black Panther and Storm miniseries artwork, where Storm's look is based on Angela and comes off as rather stern and butch).

Regardless of any of this, Halle IS in X3 and she looked damned fine in that trailer. It just showed what can be done. Now we have to hope the lines and characterisation match up - seeing her looking at that cloudy sky makes me think they will.

I didn't want her to be commanding, that's the role for Cyclops. I just wanted her more defined and accurate than in the dialogue so far. If only they'd had her land on the snow in X1 when she and Storm stop Sabretooth; that would have told us straight away that she could fly.

[bosef982]

'Acting choices'? The cast were not allowed to refer to the comicbook sources, it was Bryan's directing they had to follow. I wouldn't say it was a 'sub-par performance' either, it was not the acting, it was the portrayal (the lines, the characterisation).






Sigh...did you own any of the X-Men scripts? I own both X1 and X2, multiple drafts. In it, Storm is not written as weak and weasly. And in the case of X2, that writing came off screen. Things Storm did in X2:

-- Defeated an two airplane Jets by whipping up multiple tornadoes.

Not enough, still weak...?

-- Defeated the spillway guards -- as seen by the lightening. Budgetary efforts made the actual fight scen there cut.

Oh wait, she doesn't matter...her character's wasted...

-- Enters Dark Cerebro and single-handedly saves all of humanity from telepathic extinction.

I mean, come the f-k on people. It sounds to me like you guys want a STORM MOVIE. How much more do you want her to do?

And yes, it does fall upon the actors to make more screentime for themselves. How come no one whines about Xavier having LESS screentime than Storm...? Why? Because when Patrick Stewart was on screen, he made the persona, he made the presence, and it was all we needed. We didn't need multiple scenes to establish his character -- he alluded him. Halle Berry couldn't do it -- her acting was weak, and her conflicts on the set made it worse (which is just unprofessional).

Her acting's weak in the X-films. She's her own worst enemy. Not Singer. Now, yes, Singer could have pushed her. But as The Guard said, "She's the f-ing Halle Berry." And does anyone want to venture what their f-ing battles were about on set? Probably Singer telling her to step it up!

Are you all really this blind? Storm had a great deal to do in X2, yet you're still not satisfied. She basically functioned as the leader of the X-Men in that film, piloting the plane, giving directions on the spillway mechanism, partitioning the team up inside Stryker's base, and figuring out the soultion to stop Dark Cerebro, as well as stopping it herself -- and then assisting in Xavier in disrupting the White House electronics so they could slip in.

What else did you want her to do?

[Pickle-El]

That is THE problem I have with this whole situation right now....A more commanding presence could have easily pulled off the same lines from X1 and X2. It's called 'stealing your scenes', Oscar or not, Halle doesn't have that ability and commanding presence to do it. I mean, I thought Cumming (yes, The Mask 2 Alan Cumming) did a better job at provoking emotion in the Jet dialogue than Berry. (The 'I pity them' scene) Her tone of voice, and delivery if pretty flat. I think that has a lot to do with he coming off as weak. To be honest, can someone give me a GOOD example of differntiation between 'normal' Storm and 'pissed off and ready to kick ass' Storm?


In X1 I'll give you an example, 'Hold on to something'.....she says it like it's breakfast time.

[X-Maniac]

Sigh...did you own any of the X-Men scripts? I own both X1 and X2, multiple drafts. In it, Storm is not written as weak and weasly. And in the case of X2, that writing came off screen. Things Storm did in X2:

-- Defeated an two airplane Jets by whipping up multiple tornadoes.

Not enough, still weak...?

-- Defeated the spillway guards -- as seen by the lightening. Budgetary efforts made the actual fight scen there cut.

Oh wait, she doesn't matter...her character's wasted...

-- Enters Dark Cerebro and single-handedly saves all of humanity from telepathic extinction.

I mean, come the f-k on people. It sounds to me like you guys want a STORM MOVIE. How much more do you want her to do?

And yes, it does fall upon the actors to make more screentime for themselves. How come no one whines about Xavier having LESS screentime than Storm...? Why? Because when Patrick Stewart was on screen, he made the persona, he made the presence, and it was all we needed. We didn't need multiple scenes to establish his character -- he alluded him. Halle Berry couldn't do it -- her acting was weak, and her conflicts on the set made it worse (which is just unprofessional).

Her acting's weak in the X-films. She's her own worst enemy. Not Singer. Now, yes, Singer could have pushed her. But as The Guard said, "She's the f-ing Halle Berry." And does anyone want to venture what their f-ing battles were about on set? Probably Singer telling her to step it up!

Are you all really this blind? Storm had a great deal to do in X2, yet you're still not satisfied. She basically functioned as the leader of the X-Men in that film, piloting the plane, giving directions on the spillway mechanism, partitioning the team up inside Stryker's base, and figuring out the soultion to stop Dark Cerebro, as well as stopping it herself -- and then assisting in Xavier in disrupting the White House electronics so they could slip in.

What else did you want her to do?

Oh come on, wake up, it was the lines and the characterisation that were wrong :rolleyes:

She acted the lines given to her. But they were the wrong lines, they were't consistent, they were random and nonsensical. They didn't define the character and the writer of X3 agreed with that. She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?), and her failure to defend herself at all from Toad was absurd. She could have put up a bit of a fight before he kicked her into the elevator. Even in X2, summoning tornadoes while flying the jet - it didn't seem right to be able to concentrate on flying manoeuvres and also on bringing down multiple tornado funnels, she should have handed over the jet controls and flown out into the sky.

[TheVileOne]

bosef seems to keep making the best points.

And quite frankly, after CINO and Halle Berry herself saying she never wanted to another super hero or comic book movie OTHER THAN CATWOMAN 2...I see no reason for her deserving to get a larger starring role in X-men 3, or being in X-men 3 at all.

Guard is also right, Halle Berry is not good at playing strong female character types. She does not exude the sort of Goddess-like power and strength that the Storm of the comics has.

[Lightning Strykez!]

So what if you're a fan of Pyro, Iceman, Rogue etc etc? Those characters deserve development too don't they not only the almighty Storm. If i remember correctly Bryan wanted to shoot a Storm and Cyclops origin sequence but didn't get the time and money to complete it.

You think the idea of Beast, Gambit, Sentinels, Danger Room and concentrating on Dark Phoenix etc are blech?:(


Iceman had a character arc in X2--we met his parents, brothers and witnessed their discrimination. Rogue had a fully fleshed out origin in the first film, and she was at the center of the plot device. Pryo could use a bit more development.

Beast and Gambit are cool. But I don't care for the World War II Danger Room scenes I'm hearing about...and that Sentinel design is hideous.

In my opinion of course. :p

[bosef982]

*Get strangled

Does not recieve one single impact or hit in X2 and actually delivers them. (i.e. Nightcrawler and Stryker's men).

*Smashed against glass

Yes, but in movies the heroes have to be pulled. Did she not rise out of the elevator shaft and f-ing blow the room apart with wind and lightening. Uh-huh...I thought so.

*Get kicked in the face

So are you going to do a blow by blow of how she was hit? Should we do it for Wolverine as well and then call him a weak ****? Seriously, you're groping here.

*Send carreening into various displays

This is one fight. You can't keep referencing it as if it was each a single instance. All these things happend win a twenty second time span.

*Get kicked in the stomach

Again, same fight.

*Get thrown down an elevator shaft

After which she rises and blows the place apart and electrocutes Toad.

*Get gut-punched in the stomach

Again, same fight. Sigh...

*Get stabbed (although technically that was really a morph, but Storm was still used)

Ah come on, please...:rolleyes:

*Say out-of-character lines i.e. "I can't control it like that", "I can't!" etc.

It's all in the delivery.

*Give the character the worst punchline in comic moviedom history

Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

X2: Revisited:

-- Storm leads the group to go find Nightcrawler, bringing him down.

-- Storm lands the X-Jet before Bobby's house, after delivering a speech about giving up on pity and anger helping her survive.

-- Storm pilots the jet, evading trained Air Force pilots, all the while whipping up multiple tornadoes to effectively, yet harmlessly, allow them to escape.

-- Storm studies and relays information concerning the dam system, explaining what they can and cannot do.

-- It is Storm's lightening we see flashing over the guards when they break into the base. Electromagnetic interference (Storm) blacks out Stryker's troops.

-- Storm partitions the team up in the base and then goes and rescues the kidnapped children.

-- Storm figures out how to get into Dark Cerebro.

--Storm stops Dark Cerebro.

--Storm helps Xavier break into the White House.


Again, what more did you want? Where was she weak in there? I need an answer, not an evasion. No one, NO ONE, has ever answered this question in re: to X2!

[cookiva]

Again, what more did you want? Where was she weak in there? I need an answer, not an evasion. No one, NO ONE, has ever answered this question in re: to X2!

You ask for an answer, but you are not answering LS's questions!!!!!

[bosef982]

Even in X2, summoning tornadoes while flying the jet - it didn't seem right to be able to concentrate on flying manoeuvres and also on bringing down multiple tornado funnels, she should have handed over the jet controls and flown out into the sky.

Oh, so now it's not that she didn't have stuff to do, it just wasn't done the way you wanted it -- or in a comic book, spectacle sort of way?

Please, to me it was a testament that she was able to fly and make tornadoes. That shows skill and an amazing amount of concentration.

So in your scenario, let's see...they would have put the plane in hover at that altitude (:rolleyes: ) and Storm should go ahead and fly up into the thin atmosphere (:rolleyes: ) and expose herself to machine-gun armed and missle locked pilots -- not to mention the plane's themselves -- and conjured up some tornadoes...as the X-Jet hovered there waiting for her to finish, hoping that being a sitting duck wouldn't make them more of a target, and waiting for Storm's tornadoes to not distract the planes, but instead KILL THEM -- cuz they wouldn't be moving. Unless, they'd leave Storm behind in your scenario, in that case -- how does she catch up all the way in Western Canada? God, then we'd have to hear about how she disappeared for a quarter of the movie while flying back...

...oh yeah, and we need to keep the audience believing and accepting all that as well.

**shakes head**

[X-Maniac]

bosef seems to keep making the best points.

And quite frankly, after CINO and Halle Berry herself saying she never wanted to another super hero or comic book movie OTHER THAN CATWOMAN 2...I see no reason for her deserving to get a larger starring role in X-men 3, or being in X-men 3 at all.

Guard is also right, Halle Berry is not good at playing strong female character types. She does not exude the sort of Goddess-like power and strength that the Storm of the comics has.

Who is 'right' and 'best' is a matter of opinion. You can flap and flail like a fish on a hot griddle as much as you want. I don't think we'd ever get a Storm 'goddess' in the movies - but someone with some confidence, with a defined reason for being what she is and doing what she does - that's what fans wanted. The power displays have been, generally, fine. If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight. And if he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.

[bosef982]

You ask for an answer, but you are not answering LS's questions!!!!!


How did I not? Have you been reading my posts?

[cookiva]

How did I not? Have you been reading my posts?

Yes, I have. I have stayed out of this argument till this point to tell you both this. Neither of you have answered eachothers questions. Dont ask him for an answer if you wont answer his. LS has made as much of an argument as you have.

[X-Maniac]

Oh, so now it's not that she didn't have stuff to do, it just wasn't done the way you wanted it -- or in a comic book, spectacle sort of way?

Please, to me it was a testament that she was able to fly and make tornadoes. That shows skill and an amazing amount of concentration.

And yes, they should have put the plane in hover at that altitude (:rolleyes: ) and Storm should go ahead and fly up into the thin atmosphere (:rolleyes: ) and expose herself to machine-gun armed and missle locked pilots -- not to mention the plane's themselves -- and conjured up some tornadoes...as the X-Jet hovered there waiting for her to finish, hoping that being a sitting duck wouldn't make them more of a target, and waiting for Storm's tornadoes to not distract the planes, but instead KILL THEM -- cuz they wouldn't be moving. Unless, they'd leave Storm behind in your scenario, in that case -- how does she catch up all the way in Western Canada? God, then we'd have to hear about how she disappeared for a quarter of the movie while flying back...

...oh yeah, and we need to keep the audience believing and accepting all that as well.

**shakes head**

Shake all you want, but I found that scene odd. No one else has mentioned it, but I have said what i thought. And i still think it. You do not have the power to remove that viewpoint, much though you seem to think you can.

You totally misrepresent what i meant. Who the frigging hell said anything about putting the plane in hover? She should have flown out and up into the clouds and then generated the tornadoes. No one has said anything about putting the plane in hover so DO NOT put words in my mouth and let your twisted bias take over.

[Lightning Strykez!]

bosef seems to keep making the best points.



No, you're just agreeing with him because of your obsessive CINO hatred...a bone you have yet to stop picking. It peppers your posts.

Next. :p

[cookiva]

No, you're just agreeing with him because of your obsessive CINO hatred...a bone you have yet to stop picking. It peppers your posts.

Next. :p

Ya, I agree with that.....

[bosef982]

Who is 'right' and 'best' is a matter of opinion. You can flap and flail like a fish on a hot griddle as much as you want. I don't think we'd ever get a Storm 'goddess' in the movies - but someone with some confidence, with a defined reason for being what she is and doing what she does - that's what fans wanted. The power displays have been, generally, fine. If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight. And if he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.

But do you see what you refute with? There's a point where this surpasses being a matter of opinion and becomes a matter of reason.

You counter conceptual, character-oriented argumetns in support of Singer's handling of Storm overall, you conter these with "What about this line...." and "this punch..."

I mean, come on. And to the whole, Storm getting beat up. Okay, let's refer to the Matrix movies. In Matrix One, Neo gets his ass handed to him repeatedly, until at the very end, he manages to fight back and barely win. However, those scenes are so stunning, so cool because we know the odds are stacked against him, and like him, we have all this pent up frusteration that we ant to unleash so that when Neo fights back, we're like "YES!" However, in Matrix Reloaded, the common critique was that Neo was no longer a dramatic underdog. He was powerful enough taht we had no doubt in our minds what was too happen next. He'd face agents. Done. He'd face 100 Smiths. Done without breaking a sweat. Then, faced the Merovingians guards. Done, with only a drop of blood. There was no suspense, it was just fight spectacle for the sake of fight spectacle. You didn't root for them.

You guys want Storm to be like Neo in Matrix Reloaded, where her success in winning is a forgone conclusion. For me, her getting her ass handed to her by Toad made the scene where she rises from the elevator shaft all the more dramatic and stunning. In the end, she won. Just like in the first Matrix, weak as he may have been in COMPARISON to Smith, Neo won. You want Storm to be the most powerful person out there -- and she always has to win. Well, good drama doesn't work that way.

[HighVoltage]

The same might be said for you.....

Hahahaha. Yeah Yeah The War Has Started.:down

[bosef982]

No, you're just agreeing with him because of your obsessive CINO hatred...a bone you have yet to stop picking. It peppers your posts.

Next. :p


Me and theVileone have seen eye to eye on many issues. This is below you to make such a idiotic comment. You saying he has a bone to pick with CINO clouds his judgement is as bad as me saying you being a Storm fan clouds your -- you're arguing eveyrthing but the point, creating a straw man, and attacking crediblity, not the argument before you.

[cookiva]

Hahahaha. Yeah Yeah The War Has Started.:down

hahaha!

[bosef982]

Yes, I have. I have stayed out of this argument till this point to tell you both this. Neither of you have answered eachothers questions. Dont ask him for an answer if you wont answer his. LS has made as much of an argument as you have.

I'm not denying him that, and my question was phrased in a general sense.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Sigh...did you own any of the X-Men scripts? I own both X1 and X2, multiple drafts. In it, Storm is not written as weak and weasly. And in the case of X2, that writing came off screen. Things Storm did in X2:

-- Defeated an two airplane Jets by whipping up multiple tornadoes.

Not enough, still weak...?

-- Defeated the spillway guards -- as seen by the lightening. Budgetary efforts made the actual fight scen there cut.

Oh wait, she doesn't matter...her character's wasted...

-- Enters Dark Cerebro and single-handedly saves all of humanity from telepathic extinction.

I mean, come the f-k on people. It sounds to me like you guys want a STORM MOVIE. How much more do you want her to do?

And yes, it does fall upon the actors to make more screentime for themselves. How come no one whines about Xavier having LESS screentime than Storm...? Why? Because when Patrick Stewart was on screen, he made the persona, he made the presence, and it was all we needed. We didn't need multiple scenes to establish his character -- he alluded him. Halle Berry couldn't do it -- her acting was weak, and her conflicts on the set made it worse (which is just unprofessional).

Her acting's weak in the X-films. She's her own worst enemy. Not Singer. Now, yes, Singer could have pushed her. But as The Guard said, "She's the f-ing Halle Berry." And does anyone want to venture what their f-ing battles were about on set? Probably Singer telling her to step it up!

Are you all really this blind? Storm had a great deal to do in X2, yet you're still not satisfied. She basically functioned as the leader of the X-Men in that film, piloting the plane, giving directions on the spillway mechanism, partitioning the team up inside Stryker's base, and figuring out the soultion to stop Dark Cerebro, as well as stopping it herself -- and then assisting in Xavier in disrupting the White House electronics so they could slip in.

What else did you want her to do?

I think most people (judging from the reviews and fans) felt Storm was much improved in X2. Her "I have faith in you" themes were executed perfectly--there was great chemistry between Halle and Alan. Critics loved these things about that film. And you're right, she did have more to do SFX wise and of course as field leader. But if you note, I wasn't complaining about X2. :p

See, in this case, unfortunately the first impression is a lasting impression. The first impression we got of Storm was that she is a weakling...it's taking additional sequels to shake that perception...and to be honest--in regards to the topic at hand--I don't believe Singer would've been the one to make it happen for Storm in X3 or X4.

[cookiva]

Me and theVileone have seen eye to eye on many issues. This is below you to make such a idiotic comment. You saying he has a bone to pick with CINO clouds his judgement is as bad as me saying you being a Storm fan clouds your -- you're arguing eveyrthing but the point, creating a straw man, and attacking crediblity, not the argument before you.

Im not a Halle lover, or Halle hater, so I can see both of your sides easily. But you have not proved anything at all. LS keeps saying that its one way, Bosef says another. You are not going to change anything. Halle has a strong role in X3, that is something everyone can agree on, correct? Just accept the fact.

[cookiva]

I'm not denying him that, and my question was phrased in a general sense.

That is true....

[TheVileOne]

No, you're just agreeing with him because of your obsessive CINO hatred...a bone you have yet to stop picking. It peppers your posts.

Next. :p

He's not nitpicking everything Storm does in the movies like you seem to be doing.

And Halle Berry herself is the one that went on record and said Catwoman 2 was the only sequel she wanted to do.

[bosef982]

Shake all you want, but I found that scene odd. No one else has mentioned it, but I have said what i thought. And i still think it. You do not have the power to remove that viewpoint, much though you seem to think you can.

You totally misrepresent what i meant. Who the frigging hell said anything about putting the plane in hover? She should have flown out and up into the clouds and then generated the tornadoes. No one has said anything about putting the plane in hover so DO NOT put words in my mouth and let your twisted bias take over.

Okay, I won't. I'll let you. So, Storm hovers out of the jet and makes some tornados. I just need some clarification?

1) As fast as that jet's moving -- we'll say in the Mach region -- how is she going to get out of that plane without the relative adjustment in air pressure and speed killing her or the people in the cock pit?

2) If she manages to somehow to get out of the moving jet during this high speed chase -- when they're all supposed to be buckled in by the way -- how does she get back into the jet since the tornadoes are meant to distract and disable the jets long enough for the X-Jet to escape?

2a) If the X-Jet then does escape, as Storm has now escape the fast-moving jet and now disable the jets, how does she get back into the moving jet if one, it's already left, or two, if it's moving in?

3) If she's left behind, how does she meet the X-Men miles away in West Canada when the Jet scene takes place on the Eastern seaboard?

4) Do you think the audience would literally believe any of this?

[Lightning Strykez!]

Me and theVileone have seen eye to eye on many issues. This is below you to make such a idiotic comment. You saying he has a bone to pick with CINO clouds his judgement is as bad as me saying you being a Storm fan clouds your -- you're arguing eveyrthing but the point, creating a straw man, and attacking crediblity, not the argument before you.

First of all, that statement was made in jest. Secondly, it was directed to him, not you. Therefore, it is not a reflection on you or your opinion.

For the record, VileOne has a habit of bringing CINO up in any post he makes regarding Halle Berry, and he's persecuted A1ant for months about it. It's something he can't get over. And he knows what I'm talking about. :cool:

[bosef982]

I think most people (judging from the reviews and fans) felt Storm was much improved in X2. Her "I have faith in you" themes were executed perfectly--there was great chemistry between Halle and Alan. Critics loved these things about that film. And you're right, she did have more to do SFX wise and of course as field leader. But if you note, I wasn't complaining about X2. :p

See, in this case, unfortunately the first impression is a lasting impression. The first impression we got of Storm was that she is a weakling...it's taking additional sequels to shake that perception...and to be honest--in regards to the topic at hand--I don't believe Singer would've been the one to make it happen for Storm in X3 or X4.

Don't you have another thread talking about the last impression is the first remembered or something?

And, so, when we fans critique Singer, and he listens to us and changes things, then do we go ahead and ignore the improvements he made for the sake of making a argument?

AND

If our first impression of Storm is the one that lasts, as you said, why does it matter for Ratner to give Storm a more promiment role if it's not going to override that lasting first impression you spoke of?

[cookiva]

First of all, that statement was made in jest. Secondly, it was directed to him, not you. Therefore, it is not a reflection on you or your opinion.

For the record, VileOne has a habit of bringing CINO up in any post he makes regarding Halle Berry, and he's persecuted A1ant for months about it. It's something he can't get over. And he knows what I'm talking about. :cool:

Its true. I remember A1NT and TheVileOne arguing, then TVO said that he shouldnt read A1nts posts because of CINO...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Does not recieve one single impact or hit in X2 and actually delivers them. (i.e. Nightcrawler and Stryker's men).



Yes, but in movies the heroes have to be pulled. Did she not rise out of the elevator shaft and f-ing blow the room apart with wind and lightening. Uh-huh...I thought so.



So are you going to do a blow by blow of how she was hit? Should we do it for Wolverine as well and then call him a weak ****? Seriously, you're groping here.



This is one fight. You can't keep referencing it as if it was each a single instance. All these things happend win a twenty second time span.



Again, same fight.



After which she rises and blows the place apart and electrocutes Toad.



Again, same fight. Sigh...



Ah come on, please...:rolleyes:



It's all in the delivery.




Storm is a woman. Hollywood already often portrays women in the same way men in the world consider them: weak.

So to add to that perception by reducing the strongest, commanding female leader in the X-Men franchise to a weak, mousy damsel in distress was not only stereotypical, but also out-of-character.

And again, why wasn't Jean treated in a similiar vein? Could it be because of some directorial bias? Can you answer that question?

[X-Maniac]

But do you see what you refute with? There's a point where this surpasses being a matter of opinion and becomes a matter of reason.

You counter conceptual, character-oriented argumetns in support of Singer's handling of Storm overall, you conter these with "What about this line...." and "this punch..."

I mean, come on. And to the whole, Storm getting beat up. Okay, let's refer to the Matrix movies. In Matrix One, Neo gets his ass handed to him repeatedly, until at the very end, he manages to fight back and barely win. However, those scenes are so stunning, so cool because we know the odds are stacked against him, and like him, we have all this pent up frusteration that we ant to unleash so that when Neo fights back, we're like "YES!" However, in Matrix Reloaded, the common critique was that Neo was no longer a dramatic underdog. He was powerful enough taht we had no doubt in our minds what was too happen next. He'd face agents. Done. He'd face 100 Smiths. Done without breaking a sweat. Then, faced the Merovingians guards. Done, with only a drop of blood. There was no suspense, it was just fight spectacle for the sake of fight spectacle. You didn't root for them.

You guys want Storm to be like Neo in Matrix Reloaded, where her success in winning is a forgone conclusion. For me, her getting her ass handed to her by Toad made the scene where she rises from the elevator shaft all the more dramatic and stunning. In the end, she won. Just like in the first Matrix, weak as he may have been in COMPARISON to Smith, Neo won. You want Storm to be the most powerful person out there -- and she always has to win. Well, good drama doesn't work that way.

Bosef, you keep trying to put words in my mouth, you keep projecting your interpretations on to me, as though i said them. STOP IT NOW.

Forget the Matrix. Forget people wanting victory to be guaranteed. Forget wanting Storm to be most powerful. You are completely inventing the other side of the argument so it suits your counterargument. What you think the Storm fans think is complete and utter crap.

Fans wanted a more accurate, defined, logical portrayal. At least SOME defence against Toad (as anyone would do, especially a weather-control mutant), and better lines.

I repeat, and this time read it:

1) If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight.

2) If he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.

3) She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, and why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?), these were all random lines, they weren't even consistent. They didn't really hint at anything that was before or after they were said.

4) Flying out of the plane to create the tornadoes - my own personal view, not essential, but it has crossed my mind everytime i think of that scene.

The main gripe is the dialogue. Not the acting. Not the power displays. There is a general and overriding feeling that Storm was not properly defined or portrayed. Those who dislike Halle just blame her because they cannot see past the hatred.

[Karea07]

Basically, Wolverine, Storm and Cyclops are the most popular X-men ever. They are the ones with the dolls at the D&B's and Jillians to win as prizes. They are the faces of Marvel and the X-men. For Singer to overshadow two of them and focus on one is wrong, it should have never been that way. I'm glad it's getting fixed (with more Storm) but the absense of Cyclops in the teaser and his rumored death would be really horrible.

[tirminyl]

WTF are you talking about???

Im sorry, I didn't speak English:

I hope this movie does not turn into Wolverine 3: And the Other X-Men, as the first two movies did. I then went on to speak about my hatred for Wolverine and how he should have been dead by now but the writers always has it that he is able to heal himself out of any situation. Even though his mutant healing factor is the weakest of all mutants who have that ability, he somehow manages to survive what should have killed him.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Storm is a woman. Hollywood already often portrays women in the same way men in the world consider them: weak.

So to add to that perception by reducing the strongest, commanding female leader in the X-Men franchise to a weak, mousy damsel in distress was not only stereotypical, but also out-of-character.

And again, why wasn't Jean treated in a similiar vein? Could it be because of some directorial bias? Can you answer that question?

Yeah and I am curious what accent she will have in X3. :o

[bosef982]

Storm is a woman. Hollywood already often portrays women in the same way men in the world consider them: weak.

So to add to that perception by reducing the strongest, commanding female leader in the X-Men franchise to a weak, mousy damsel in distress was not only stereotypical, but also out-of-character.

And again, why wasn't Jean treated in a similiar vein? Could it be because of some directorial bias? Can you answer that question?

I thought Jean was notoriously weak (and she's actually my secret favorite next to magneto) in X1. I mean, she gets no action first of all, and shen she does, all she manages after being kicked and throttled, is a stop in mid-air, then a spit of acid into her face.

But then again, I understand taht the hero (as a collective the X-Men) need to come close to being defeated in this part of the movie, so as to set the stakes and create drama and suspense. If they all just beat the Brotherhood at this point, it'd seemed to easy and the movie would have felt anti-climatic.

What alot of peoplea are saying almost nears an argument like, "Why wasn't Spider-Man able to beat Doc Ock on the train? Spider-Man's weak! Raimi got it wrong!" or "How did Scarecrow gas Batman and push him out the window? Nolan needs to read the comic books! Batman always wins!"

The answer to all those is, quite simply, "it's not the end of the movie yet!" They're not suppose to win then, they're suppose to struggle, to be unclear -- the outcome indecisive. Otherwise, it's TOO predictable.

In the end, by working as A TEAM, the X-Men stopped Magneto and saved the day.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Don't you have another thread talking about the last impression is the first remembered or something?

And, so, when we fans critique Singer, and he listens to us and changes things, then do we go ahead and ignore the improvements he made for the sake of making a argument?

AND

If our first impression of Storm is the one that lasts, as you said, why does it matter for Ratner to give Storm a more promiment role if it's not going to override that lasting first impression you spoke of?


That thread--and it's metaphorical connection--was in reference to sales and marketing. Not characterization. It's N/A....and to be honest, even if Halle Berry puts her FOOT in this X3 role, some fans will never forgive her. Ever.

*looks at VileOne* :p

[X-Maniac]

Okay, I won't. I'll let you. So, Storm hovers out of the jet and makes some tornados. I just need some clarification?

1) As fast as that jet's moving -- we'll say in the Mach region -- how is she going to get out of that plane without the relative adjustment in air pressure and speed killing her or the people in the cock pit?

2) If she manages to somehow to get out of the moving jet during this high speed chase -- when they're all supposed to be buckled in by the way -- how does she get back into the jet since the tornadoes are meant to distract and disable the jets long enough for the X-Jet to escape?

2a) If the X-Jet then does escape, as Storm has now escape the fast-moving jet and now disable the jets, how does she get back into the moving jet if one, it's already left, or two, if it's moving in?

3) If she's left behind, how does she meet the X-Men miles away in West Canada when the Jet scene takes place on the Eastern seaboard?

4) Do you think the audience would literally believe any of this?

Those are good points. I accept that it may not have worked for her to leave the jet, for those reasons or for storyline reasons, but it is something that crosses my mind when i see that scene. Her eyes glaze over and presumably energy begins flowing psionically/physically to allow the tornadoes to form, all during the time she is carrying out evasive manoeuvres - well, yes, it does show great concentration...but I also have that other alternative scenario in my mind where she somehow is able to go outside to do it. I accept that it does not look very practical or possible in the particular situation, but let's not hang our entire Storm argument on this point as it's my own personal thought, no one else has mentioned it. Maybe it's just a wish, a fancy, but I wanted to see some Storm flight and that seemed the right place for it, even though the exact practical set-up of that scene makes it very unlikely.

[bosef982]

Bosef, you keep trying to put words in my mouth, you keep projecting your interpretations on to me, as though i said them. STOP IT NOW.

Forget the Matrix. Forget people wanting victory to be guaranteed. Forget wanting Storm to be most powerful. You are completely inventing the other side of the argument so it suits your counterargument. What you think the Storm fans think is complete and utter crap.

Fans wanted a more accurate, defined, logical portrayal. At least SOME defence against Toad (as anyone would do, especially a weather-control mutant), and better lines.

I repeat, and this time read it:

1) If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight.

2) If he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence. Also, by X2, she's obviously demonstrating an enormous amount of control and confidence in her poweres -- which you seem to feel lacking.

3) She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, and why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?), these were all random lines, they weren't even consistent. They didn't really hint at anything that was before or after they were said.

4) Flying out of the plane to create the tornadoes - my own personal view, not essential, but it has crossed my mind everytime i think of that scene.

The main gripe is the dialogue. Not the acting. Not the power displays. There is a general and overriding feeling that Storm was not properly defined or portrayed. Those who dislike Halle just blame her because they cannot see past the hatred.

I'm not so certain we're feeling each other here.

The "I can't control it like that" line to me just made sense, and offered an opportunity for the X-Men to work as a team (which is another common critique that people make, while overlooking that they did). So, her saying that presented that opportunity for a team effort.

"Sometimes anger can help you survive..." is a line that doesn't neccessarily have to reference her. In the context of her conversation with Nightcrawler, the line makes perfect sense to me and doesn't neccessarily mean she's survived it that way. Also, it's subtle, if you look at her in the beginning of the film, her comment, "And we know how the government will respond...they'll reinstitute the registration act." There's a slight note of anger in the way she says that...or in the way it's delivered. In teh script, it's even presented that way...

..."I suppose I'm afraid of them." I think all the X-Men are afraid of humans. Its why they do what they do -- out of the fear of what humans and/or mutants will do to each other. Plus, I think this was a tender moment, that showed the impact of discrimnation and prejudice and thus, warranted that line. To me, it painted STorm a tad lighter.

Storm not defending herself -- I think my Matrix argument applies quite aptly. It sets the stakes. Toad is just that fast. Plus, what was she going to do inside an indoor facility like that with so little time in taht ambush - - she's never been a hand to hand fighter.

I can see the whole "landing" in the snow thing. But is it that neccessary.

[bosef982]

Those are good points. I accept that it may not have worked for her to leave the jet, for those reasons or for storyline reasons, but it is something that crosses my mind when i see that scene. Her eyes glaze over and presumably energy begins flowing psionically/physically to allow the tornadoes to form, all during the time she is carrying out evasive manoeuvres - well, yes, it does show great concentration...but I also have that other alternative scenario in my mind where she somehow is able to go outside to do it. I accept that it does not look very practical or possible in the particular situation, but let's not hang our entire Storm argument on this point as it's my own personal thought, no one else has mentioned it. Maybe it's just a wish, a fancy, but I wanted to see some Storm flight and that seemed the right place for it, even though the exact practical set-up of that scene makes it very unlikely.

Yea, I don't want to hang my point here, but I'm trying to respond to as many thigns as I can so people know I'm not being evasive.

This is quite the work out on my fingers.

[bosef982]

That thread--and it's metaphorical connection--was in reference to sales and marketing. Not characterization. It's N/A....and to be honest, even if Halle Berry puts her FOOT in this X3 role, some fans will never forgive her. Ever.

*looks at VileOne* :p


True, but the other two questions remain. If the first impression lasts, than Singer's efforst to listen to fans and change Storm (as you said she was in X2) are futile? As is any alteration they make in X3 for as you said, the first impression lasts.

[X-Maniac]

...I envisaged her handing controls over to someone, ejecting into the clouds, creating the tornadoes while flying along.. and then landing beside the jet as Magneto suspends it in the air.

I can just imagine if Magneto said 'When will you people learn how to fly' and then Storm descends and lands beside him 'Some of us already can'.

That, for me, would have been a Storm moment. Flight is part of her power.

[tirminyl]

That, for me, would have been a Storm moment. Flight is part of her power.

No, it's not. Its just a manipulation of her power to do so :p

Everyone is arguing over the same thing. Funny.

[PikaZeroX]

...I envisaged her handing controls over to someone, ejecting into the clouds, creating the tornadoes while flying along.. and then landing beside the jet as Magneto suspends it in the air.

I can just imagine if Magneto said 'When will you people learn how to fly' and then Storm descends and lands beside him 'Some of us already can'.

That, for me, would have been a Storm moment. Flight is part of her power.

That would have been badass.

But it is a little cartoony having her eject out of the jet Lol.

[Lightning Strykez!]

He's not nitpicking everything Storm does in the movies like you seem to be doing.

And Halle Berry herself is the one that went on record and said Catwoman 2 was the only sequel she wanted to do.

:rolleyes:

You're taking that out of context, so I will put it back in: She said she'd do a Catwoman 2 when she thought she had a launched a new franchise, which utterly failed. She then came to her senses and humbly accepted her Razzie award (unprecedented for an Oscar actress) and said (and I quote): "I want to thank my management for convincing me to star in this piece of ****."

Let it go. A1ant has. Halle has.

You should too. :D

[bosef982]

...I envisaged her handing controls over to someone, ejecting into the clouds, creating the tornadoes while flying along.. and then landing beside the jet as Magneto suspends it in the air.

I can just imagine if Magneto said 'When will you people learn how to fly' and then Storm descends and lands beside him 'Some of us already can'.

That, for me, would have been a Storm moment. Flight is part of her power.


I'll admit that's pretty cool. The only way I can see that scene working -- and it'd be logical -- is that the jet has a sort of vacum tube built into it designed for Storm. That'd make sense.

But, the amount of distance the jets are covering is still fairly huge for Storm to catch up on wind drafts alone. It's almost as unbelievable as believing that out of all the places, Magneto happened to be there to catch the X-Jet as it plummeted.

[X-Maniac]

That would have been badass.

But it is a little cartoony having her eject out of the jet Lol.

Maybe, but don't wreck my dream! It's my little personal vision of how i'd have done that scene. :supes:

[cookiva]

Maybe, but don't wreck my dream! It's my little personal vision of how i'd have done that scene. :supes:

I like the idea...dont worry XM!

[Lightning Strykez!]

No, it's not. Its just a manipulation of her power to do so :p



*scratches head*

What's the difference? Her abilities are psionically generated. Her ability to ride the slightest breeze or a strong gale come courtesy of psionics.

[Angry Sentinel]

:eek: Oooh NO!! How/Why did I miss this? WHY WHY WHY!!!

*Chokes self, dies*

[Lightning Strykez!]

^^^ Gotta be quicker man....gotta strike like lightning...:p

[Angry Sentinel]

^^^ Gotta be quicker man....gotta strike like lightning...:p I missed all the excitement today... to many meetings :(

[RedIsNotBlue]

Any news on Storm's accent this time around? Australian perhaps?

[Milkman95]

Any news on Storm's accent this time around? Australian perhaps?

Who knows - it's been different in each film.......

[The Geek Vault]

she's had a accent?

[cookiva]

she's had a accent?

....joke????....

[The Guard]

Quote your source, give your evidence

I can't quote him because the conversations took place years ago, when X-MEN was just coming into the public eye. But they consisted of repeated statements about how much Bryan Singer didn't want Halle Berry to be his Storm, and that FOX wanted her. Bryan Singer wanted Angela Basset, but FOX wasn't interested. Angela Basset wasn't "marketable".

We've heard rumours of an argument in which she said 'Kiss my black ass' but that's all and that does not amount to almost constantly by my reckoning. Present your evidence for this statement.

I don't have any evidence that isn't hearsay, so I have nothing that will sway you. It's hearsay from people I trust a hell of a lot more than you, but hearsay nonetheless.

Far too much evidence? Let's see it please.

No. It basically involves the obvious...that Halle Berry, for the last seven years or so, seems to be the only "marketable" black actress of any note when it comes to major action films. My "evidence" wouldn't have any bearing on your feelings about her.

'Acting choices'? The cast were not allowed to refer to the comicbook sources, it was Bryan's directing they had to follow. I wouldn't say it was a 'sub-par performance' either, it was not the acting, it was the portrayal (the lines, the characterisation).

Not allowed to refer to comic book sources my ass. Then how did McKellan, Jackman and Marsden become such fans of the material? What Singer told them about it? I'll tell you how: they did their damned research. Many of them got the animated series for inspiration, and yes, read the comics. What Bryan Singer didn't want was his cast to do was to be trying for broad, over-the-top, "comic book" performances (as he had seen in many other comic movies). He never told them not to look at the comics, just not to rely too much on what they saw there in terms of tone.

Halle Berry's acting in X-MEN was subpar, even by her standards. Don't get me started on her accent (how'd she know Storm had an accent, btw? How did Singer, if he didn't care about the character?)

I gave my examples. A man who should be a competent, authoritative leader bellyflopped the X-jet, thus giving Wolverine the chance to mock his flight skills.

That is not an example of a character being incorrectly portrayed. It's a valid moment, and it injects humor. I'll explain it for you. One, the X-Men are CLEARLY shown to be fallible in X-MEN. Every single one of them. This was one of the major THEMES of the movie. To show them growing as a team, working together while facing new, more dangerous threats than the ones they had in the past.

Cyclops is a young hero, who is piloting an obviously high tech supersonic jet, and piloting it well. He has a bit of a rough landing, which he knows someone will call him on, providing a humorous moment when they all kind of look around like "who's gonna say it". Wolverine says it. And with this "example", are you telling me that any small failure on a character's part makes their portrayal invalid or weak? Shall we talk about BATMAN BEGINS?

A man who should be leading the way allowed Wolverine to call him a 'dick' and just answered 'okay'.

Did you even watch the movie? He wants something to prove that's Wolverine, and not Mystique posing as Wolverine. Wolverine knows simply pointing out he doesn't like him will both ease the tension in a humorous way, and prove to Cyclops that he is the real Wolverine. That's not Wolverine outright insulting Cyclops, it's Wolverine easing Cyclops's mind, and saying "yeah, I'm the real one".

Bryan's favouritism for Wolverine shines likes a beacon here.

Uh, that's a humorous moment put into the script by the writers. It has nothing to do with Bryan's favoritism for Wolverine. And the whole Wolverine VS. Cyclops thing is not about favoritism. That's how their relationship has played out for years. They are foils. Wolverine ribs Cyclops, and Cyclops either restrains himself or beats the crap out of Wolverine. There's no real reason for him to beat the crap out of Wolverine in X-MEN, so he just chooses to be the bigger man.

More coming...

[MoPlaYa]

...I envisaged her handing controls over to someone, ejecting into the clouds, creating the tornadoes while flying along.. and then landing beside the jet as Magneto suspends it in the air.

I can just imagine if Magneto said 'When will you people learn how to fly' and then Storm descends and lands beside him 'Some of us already can'.

That, for me, would have been a Storm moment. Flight is part of her power.

that would have been awesome!! :up:

[Ichi]

A man who should be leading the way allowed Wolverine to call him a 'dick' and just answered 'okay'.

Yeah, Cyclops is the leader!! When Wolverine said "You're a dick.", Cyclops should've blown him away like a leader would. Right??

[The Guard]

And in X2, although he got to do some defensive beam-firing and fisticuffs at the prison, he is then absent for much of the rest of the movie, suddenly appearing (no one sees him being freed, he is just staggering around). It's not what i would call a portrayal of a commanding, competent leader.

That's right. He isn't in the movie a whole lot. When he is, what's so wrong with how he's portrayed? He's still the same old Cyclops, until he gets brainwashed (SO DOES XAVIER AND ALMOST KILLS MUTANT AND HUMANKIND ALIKE, BTW). He's staggering around because he's just been in a fight with a powerful telepath. I see him sparring with Wolverine, deeply in love and deepy concerned about Jean, and very protective of Xavier. Seems pretty in character to me. So he gets taken out of action. The main villain plot of the film was for Stryker to remove the X-Men's leadership and turn it against them. Or didn't you catch that?

Nothing like the source material, nothing like how ANY leader should be portrayed.

So you've never seen Cyclops hurt in the comics? Ever? And you've never seen him or Xavier, or any comic book leader taken out of action or "turned"? Bull****.

Tell me: Was it Halle Berry then who forced Bryan and his writers to make the "Storm" character do the following?

*Get strangled

Uh, Wolverine got strangled, too. Does that make it a bad portrayal.

*Smashed against glass

Wolverine got hit with a tree.

*Get kicked in the face

Wolverine got kicked in the face, too.

*Send carreening into various displays

Wolvering got sent careening several times.

*Get kicked in the stomach

I'm pretty sure he got his ass flat-out handed to him by Mystique.

*Get thrown down an elevator shaft

Your examples suck, and I'm starting to see why.

*Get gut-punched in the stomach

Yeah, definitely seeing why now.

*Get stabbed (although technically that was really a morph, but Storm was still used)

Uh, that was Mystique, and no, it doesn't count, because Wolverine KNEW it was Mystique.

Your examples blow, It's like you're saying "If they get their ass kicked, it's a bad portrayal because Storm kicks ass". Newflash: Wolverine has gotten his ass kicked and been defeated repeatedly in the films in some most embarrassing ways, and Cyclops, Jean Grey and others have been bettered as well. Know why? Because it shows that the villains are actual THREATS, not pushovers. And you do realize half of the stuff Sabertooth does to Storm is via surprising her, right?

*Say out-of-character lines i.e. "I can't control it like that", "I can't!" etc.

"I can't control it like that" is not out of character. It's simple honesty. In this film, and probably in the comics, she can't. She's worried about the possibility of their mission failing because of it. AND, AND, that "out of character" line leads Wolverine to step up, and Cyclops to realize Jean can use her power to steady Wolverine, giving them a better chance at success. So in sequence, it ends up a good line.

*Give the character the worst punchline in comic moviedom history

It's only that bad because she gave an abysmal delivery of it with almost no emotion or weight to it (which it damn well should have had, given the situation). She plays it like a jilted high school cheerleader, not like a woman seeking vengeance. The line itself is not that bad. Her delivery was horrid.

And that's just from the first film. Pray do tell, why wasn't Jean or Cyclops treated in a similar manner?

They were. Toad spit slime all over Jean Grey's face, and Cyclops got his ass handed to him by Toad as well. Now you're going to say "Why did Storm get her ass kicked so badly?" Because it takes MORE to take Storm out. She was shown going through and surviving all that because they were trying to show you how much damage she could take and then, and this is the important part, STILL BOUNCE BACK DEFEAT HER OPPONENTS (It happened with Sabertooth, and it happened with Toad). That's the whole point of the damned fight/revenge sequence, and you missed it. Congratulations.

Why should Storm get the lion's share of whoop-a$$?

She did. She blew Sabertooth through a wall, her own way. And she blew Toad out to sea, AFTER hitting him with lightning.

These events spelled out one character trait for Storm to moviegoers: WEAKNESS. She can't fight, defend herself, and the baddies go straight for her and kick her ass.

Unless you're an idiot, and can't see that Sabertooth and Toad caused ALL the X-Men trouble througout the movie, then it should spell out this one thing: Sabertooth and Toad are dangerous enemies who are not pushovers.

She only gets a lightning bolt in after she's had some time to recuperate and get some prep time in the elevator shaft!

The woman has just fallen down an elevator shaft. And then she "gets right back up", pissed as hell, and blows him away. Literally. Prep time, my ass. Are you saying it's not ok for her to take a few seconds to recover from falling down an elevator shaft?

True, to an extent Halle's responsible for her tone of voice with her lines, but even that can be directed--for example: the magically dissappearing African accent in X2--at Bryan's demand. That's real mature.

He had to do it. Because apparently Halle Berry wasn't talented enough to hold an accent without her African wavering into Spanish and then god knows what.

And even if he simply didn't know much about Storm as a character, he should've done his homework and directed the character more accurately.

One generally doesn't tell Halle Berry what to do. Odds are he tried and she gave him crappy take after crappy take.

Remember, Bryan got Wolverine, Magneto, Jean, Xavier and Scott right (more or less), so to screw Storm up says something--not about his talent--but about his motives and appreciation for the character.

What did he get wrong about Storm again? That she wasn't a goddess? That she was a bit more human and vulnerable (as they all were) than her comic book counterpart?

Sigh...did you own any of the X-Men scripts? I own both X1 and X2, multiple drafts. In it, Storm is not written as weak and weasly.

Agreed.

Bosef made some good points that I agree with. In X2...

-Storm helps track down Nightcrawler. She is integral in convincing him to join their cause.

-Storm flies the X-Jet. She helps the X-Men escape their pursuers by creating dozens of tornadoes. Tornadoes. Not rain. Or snow. Huge tornadoes.

-She is the one who sets out to save the children and convinces Nightcrawler to help rescue the children.

-She is integral in getting into the spillway.

-She saves the damned day at the end of the movie. She saves humanity. Apparently people missed that.

-She helps cause electrical interference at the end so Xavier can speak to the president.

In a movie packed with characters and plot points, that's a sizeable, and very important, role.

That is THE problem I have with this whole situation right now....A more commanding presence could have easily pulled off the same lines from X1 and X2.

Exactly.

It's called 'stealing your scenes', Oscar or not, Halle doesn't have that ability and commanding presence to do it.

Actually, she does, which is odd. The problem is, she rarely chooses to do so. It's baffling.

Oh come on, wake up, it was the lines and the characterisation that were wrong.

Wrong because she didn't go around screaming "WINDS HEAR MY CRY"?

She acted the lines given to her.

Not very well.

But they were the wrong lines, they were't consistent

What the hell does "the lines weren't consistent" mean? If you mean they didn't establish a consistent character, you're wrong. Storm was clearly one of the levelheaded ones in X-MEN and X2. The mother figure. The one who calmed people down, who made emotional connections with people. She also was clearly supposed to have an edge when provoked.

they were random and nonsensical.

Examples, please.

They didn't define the character and the writer of X3 agreed with that.

Oh, they clearly defined the character. Did they lean toward "mother figure" more than "warrior goddess"? Yes. But it's a valid take on the character.

She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?)

The point to these lines was the irony of it. This is Storm. Strong, silent, capable of great feats, and yet, here she is, underneath it all, just as vulnerable and frightened and uncertain of anyone. They were fantastic character moments which, had she nailed, would have been amazing onscreen. Halle Berry's acting didn't help uncover this theme. Thank God it's RIGHT THERE in the writing for anyone with a brain.

and her failure to defend herself at all from Toad was absurd.

Uh, Toad kicked everyone's ass who he came up against at some point.

She could have put up a bit of a fight before he kicked her into the elevator.

She was getting her ass kicked. She's a mutant, not Superman.

Even in X2, summoning tornadoes while flying the jet - it didn't seem right to be able to concentrate on flying manoeuvres and also on bringing down multiple tornado funnels, she should have handed over the jet controls and flown out into the sky.

Flown out into the sky to do what? Get buffeted around by the tornadoes she was creating? Get shot by the planes chasing them? Get hit by one? Get left miles behind when the supersonic X-Jet flies way, way, way further, way faster than Storm could possibly catch up to it? Yeah. That makes sense. The point of her not leaving the jet was that it's that EASY for her to control the weather. She's that good.

Who is 'right' and 'best' is a matter of opinion. You can flap and flail like a fish on a hot griddle as much as you want. I don't think we'd ever get a Storm 'goddess' in the movies - but someone with some confidence, with a defined reason for being what she is and doing what she does - that's what fans wanted.

Use your damned imagination. Xavier teaches at a school for gifted mutants. He does so to help those who struggle with being different. Cyclops, Jean and Storm are also teachers there. They also fight for mutant rights. HMM...they are mutants...WONDER WHY THEY DO IT.

The power displays have been, generally, fine. If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight.

Except that then there's less surprise factor to the first shot of her. And they established flight in the elevator sequence.

And if he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.[/quote]

It would also have killed any chances for one of the best "teamwork" moments of the film, where the "new guy" steps up to show his true colors.

Okay, I won't. I'll let you. So, Storm hovers out of the jet and makes some tornados. I just need some clarification?

1) As fast as that jet's moving -- we'll say in the Mach region -- how is she going to get out of that plane without the relative adjustment in air pressure and speed killing her or the people in the cock pit?

2) If she manages to somehow to get out of the moving jet during this high speed chase -- when they're all supposed to be buckled in by the way -- how does she get back into the jet since the tornadoes are meant to distract and disable the jets long enough for the X-Jet to escape?

2a) If the X-Jet then does escape, as Storm has now escape the fast-moving jet and now disable the jets, how does she get back into the moving jet if one, it's already left, or two, if it's moving in?

3) If she's left behind, how does she meet the X-Men miles away in West Canada when the Jet scene takes place on the Eastern seaboard?

4) Do you think the audience would literally believe any of this?

(Applause)

1) If Singer had shown Storm landing on the snow in her first scene in X1, then that would have established flight.

Destroys surprise factor of two people standing behind that blizzard.

2) If he replaced the 'I can't control it like that' with something else, or just cut it altogether. 'Storm can you fly me up there' 'Yes, everyone hold on to something' and that would have served the purpose without any hint of lack of control or lack of confidence.

Been over this one.

3) She was 'scared of humans' (too meek, and why is this?), 'gave up on pity long ago' (why? what happened?) 'anger helped her survive' (how, when?), these were all random lines, they weren't even consistent. They didn't really hint at anything that was before or after they were said.

Who cares what happened? Use your imagination! She's a mutant, she's probably experienced bigotry! Duh! The lines are extremely consistent. They paint a picture of a young person fed up with a world that hates her for no good reason, to the point where she begins to hate them back.

4) Flying out of the plane to create the tornadoes - my own personal view, not essential, but it has crossed my mind everytime i think of that scene.

Apparently half the problems with that scenario didn't.

The main gripe is the dialogue. Not the acting. Not the power displays. There is a general and overriding feeling that Storm was not properly defined or portrayed. Those who dislike Halle just blame her because they cannot see past the hatred.

Which dialogue has problems with it?

I thought Jean was notoriously weak (and she's actually my secret favorite next to magneto) in X1. I mean, she gets no action first of all, and shen she does, all she manages after being kicked and throttled, is a stop in mid-air, then a spit of acid into her face.

Ok...but the point of her character arc (here and in X2) is that she's reluctant to trust herself, to trust her power. She's not portrayed as one of the "muscle", she's the doctor, the scientist, the policital side of the team, the mentalist, the student who still has much to learn.

And, lest we forget, she opens the movie in Congress, she's integral in helping Wolverine and discovering his adamantium skeleton, she has emotional moments with him and Cyclops, and is integral iun both finding out what was wrong with Cerebro, discovering where Magneto is going, and saving the day at the end of the film. Or did you just forget these minor details?

[Yve]

bosef982, I agree with many of the things you've said thus far. Just thought you should know. :)

Re:Halle

I wouldn't say it was a 'sub-par performance' either, it was not the acting, it was the portrayal (the lines, the characterisation).

I couldn't disagree more with this. I'll use Angela Bassett as an example since she was mentioned earlier: If you were to hand Angela that script (X1 or 2), I'd bet good money that the delivery of those lines, as well as the performance in general, would not come off as weak in the slightest. I've seen good actors spin gold out of the crappiest dialogue imaginable. Halle should have made the best of what she was given and she didn't. Either because she chose not to, or because she can't. And to be frank, I think it's the latter.


And if you read the reviews and the fans' displeasure that was the unifying theme among all--Storm was weak.

I don't agree with this either. Look, I'm a Storm fan in general, and not once did I think to myself while watching the films "Christ all mighty, why is Storm so effing weak!?" Not regarding her powers, and not regarding her lines either. The only thing that came off as weak to me was Halle's performance. And I can't recall who at the moment, but someone upthread said that Singer didn't "get" Storm. And I would agree that Singer's characterization of Storm did leave a lot to be desired, but the person who really doesn't "get" Storm is Ms. Berry.


The "I can't control it like that" line to me just made sense, and offered an opportunity for the X-Men to work as a team (which is another common critique that people make, while overlooking that they did). So, her saying that presented that opportunity for a team effort.

Word. I could just as easily argue that Storm's part in this scenario is pointless, when Jean could have just floated him up there with her TK. But I like the fact that the four of them each had a hand in bringing Magneto and the machine down. It should be about teamwork and it was.

And to bring this back around to topic:


I am known as the raving Singerite. Perhaps this is true, but if I were to outline to you what I would have done with the X-Men, it would not resemble Singer's X-Films in many respects. Yet, however, I love the X-Men films -- how is this so? It's due to the fact that just because it's not done with my favorite characters or the way I would do it, doesn't mean it's not a good piece of cinema.

I feel the same way. Which is why I'm not gonna start prematurely bashing Ratner's film. I'd prefer to see the finished product and form my opinion accordingly. And I'm sure there's gonna be things I won't agree with, or that I would have done differently. Because there are things in the first two that I personally would have done differently. But in the end, what matters the most to me is that the film, as a whole, is a quality piece of work that does right by the franchise. And I feel like Singer accomplished that with the first two.

[David33]

If you ask me, it is. I thought Singer made two piss poor versions of X-Men and glad to see the series change hands. I just wish he wouldn't go butcher Superman now. And this is from someone who likes Singer's other films, but I think him not being a comic fan shows.

Agree.Im happy Singer is not doing X3.And yes,in my humble opinion,Superman is doomed.

[blind_fury]

Singer has zero vision. That's probably why the action scenes and characterizations suck in X-men 1 and 2.

[SilentType]

Looks like another episode of GUARDBALL in here.

[theJust]

singer really didnt grasp x-men, you can tell. he kept saying oh give characters enough to do, and blah blah.

and everyone thought X2 was an improvement. over the summer action b.s. that the first was, sure.

but theres no team work in x2, theres no team scenes period.
and he kept saying the world of x-men, more like the mansion!
we hardly saw anything, it was like there was no other mutants in the entire world. and im not uncluding that cheap trick in cerebro. ooooh dots! cool cameos!
and enough time for characters?! um MAKE IT LONGER! did anyone ask for an hour and half movie?! i dont think so...

[boywonder13]

singer really didnt grasp x-men, you can tell. he kept saying oh give characters enough to do, and blah blah.

and everyone thought X2 was an improvement. over the summer action b.s. that the first was, sure.

but theres no team work in x2, theres no team scenes period.
and he kept saying the world of x-men, more like the mansion!
we hardly saw anything, it was like there was no other mutants in the entire world. and im not uncluding that cheap trick in cerebro. ooooh dots! cool cameos!
and enough time for characters?! um MAKE IT LONGER! did anyone ask for an hour and half movie?! i dont think so...

You think Ratner seriously graps it more LOL. Remember the script was torn apart on AICN.

X-Men 1 = 1 hour 44 minutes

X-Men 2 = 2 hours and 13

Yeah...what was Singer doing makeing an hour and a half movies.

:)

[X-Maniac]

Dear Mr Guard

I am not going to type detailed rebuttals in ever-smaller analytical justifications until I am validating a syllable or a single letter.

What I think is what I think. What I believe is what I believe. You may attempt to wriggle between the lines and letters of my reply as much as you want, but I stand by those points.

But i note that YOU, the person who demands examples and evidence for every comma and apostrophe, were unable to authenticate your comments on Storm when i asked for hard evidence. To me that speaks volumes.

Without facts and evidence, this is just a battle of opinions. And you cannot just take my opinion away and replace it with yours, so you can then feel much better. Not how it works.

I did not like those things i said i did not like. I loved the movie, but I did not like some of the portrayals. I think they stemmed from a misinterpretation of the source material.

Each of those things can be justified within the movie, but there are still moments when, on reflection, I do not feel it is not in sync with what I have been reading for the past 30 years. Like it or not, these characters are going to get compared to their comicbook sources over and over. That's where the characters came from. Storm has been around for 30 years in the comics, that's a lot of stories and a lot of characterisation. She is well established. Cyclops and Jean have been around even longer, another 12 years.

In general, I think that Storm, and Halle, were fine. I do not watch the movies ranting and raving in anger or criticism but I can see room for improvements when i reflect on the films, especially when comparing with the Storm that is known from the comics. The same applies to other characters too.

A friend of mine who hadn't seen X1 before came round and watched it. I asked what he thought. First thing he said was that Storm 'didn't really do much'. He's not a comicbook fan, and did not know the character before. But his overriding impression of what he thought was a great film was of something that was not properly accomplished with the Storm character. My own local newspaper described Storm as being 'more like a mild drizzle.' We can argue over what can be blamed on Halle, or on the lines, or on Bryan, but in my experience the inaccuracy of the Storm character is an overriding impression. It's reflected in the amount of debate on here, which usually turns into Halle-bashing.

It looks like X3 will redress the balance. Curiously, the version of Storm in X3 may actually fully validate the versions seen in X1 and X2. We can now see the character has grown and matured, and aged, since the version in X1. Even the progression in hairstyles now looks okay.

It's almost like the pagan goddess cycle of virgin-mother-crone. The young Storm in X1 (in her 20s perhaps? a teacher, but innocent, scared, not in control). The older more motherly Storm in X2 (in her 30s? a mumsy hairdo, more in control, able to summon tornadoes while flying a hi-tech jet, more angry than scared). Now in X3 we will see an older Storm (greying hair, seemingly fully in control - now able to fly!). It presents an evolution (over seven years of real-world time, from X1 casting to X3 release and over an unspecified amount of movie-world time) that is very appealing.

[bosef982]

Looks like another episode of GUARDBALL in here.


What's Guardball?

[boywonder13]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

What in Heavens's name is Guard Ball!

[skruloos]

s
and enough time for characters?! um MAKE IT LONGER! did anyone ask for an hour and half movie?! i dont think so...
Yes. Fox did. Did you see what they also did to Daredevil and to Fantastic Four? Character moments are not welcome at Fox films. For reference, watch the DD: Director's Cut documentary on the Fox mentality for superhero movies.

[Angry Sentinel]

What's Guardball? Dont be silly, you've played that game before... The Guard and his balls... oh never mind!:p

Actually, she does, which is odd. The problem is, she rarely chooses to do so. It's baffling.
Actually it's not baffling at all, except to you who just doesnt want to admit at the very least BOTH Halle and Singer(writers, and whatever) are responsible for that WEAK Storm characterization.

Which brings me back to...Deny working for FOX, fine, but you work or are affiliated with the "business" jerks on a major scale. I know you are and I'm watching you. :spidey:

In general, I think that Storm, and Halle, were fine. I do not watch the movies ranting and raving in anger or criticism but I can see room for improvements when i reflect on the films, especially when comparing with the Storm that is known from the comics. The same applies to other characters too.


Good Job Xmaniac, I'm with you man, tell this conformist madman that you aren't changing your mind .... "so take that weak crap outta here" (sorry for the colloquialism)!

[RedIsNotBlue]

The main reason Halle was cast as Storm is because she was one the top black females in Hollywood at the time. She was just miscast plain and simple. Basset would have made the perfect Storm but I think her age is one of the main reasons she didn't get the part. And she didn't really want the part because at the times comic book films weren't considered great films to be in.

[SilentType]

What's Guardball?
Huge arguments that go on for pages, where two or more people go back and forth responding to every line of the other persons post. The arguments are cyclical and rarely evolve. The end result is page upon page filled with enormous posts, representing hours of the posters life where nobody agrees on anything.
X-Maniac posted what is perhaps the only way out of the game.

[cookiva]

The main reason Halle was cast as Storm is because she was one the top black females in Hollywood at the time. She was just miscast plain and simple.

She was cast because she was an up and coming actress. No one could have forseen her being the massive star she is now. I mean, hell, after Next Friday, Ice Cube was the star of the week...similar to Halle after Bullworth.

[Hotaru]

Quote by guard:
-Storm helps track down Nightcrawler. She is integral in convincing him to join their cause.
Yes, but you don't really see it that way watching the movie. The whole "convincing" was of screen, and that process was serving to introduce Nightcrawler, not to show Storm as an inteligent and toughtful person.

-Storm flies the X-Jet. She helps the X-Men escape their pursuers by creating dozens of tornadoes. Tornadoes. Not rain. Or snow. Huge tornadoes.
Yeah, that was supposed to be her scene. However, she didn't succeed, did she? The rockets were still coming, and Jean and then Magneto had to save the day. Out of this plane pursue scene all you remeber is Jean fiery eyes and meeting Magneto who saves our helpless heroes.

-She is the one who sets out to save the children and convinces Nightcrawler to help rescue the children.
That made people see har as a motherly figure. Great job! (no sarcasm)

-She is integral in getting into the spillway.
Ok, we know that, 'cos distrupting electrical systems is something Storm often does in the books. But in the movie it wasn't shown on screen, and that one sentence slipped away very easily among all this mayhem Mystique was doing.

-She saves the damned day at the end of the movie. She saves humanity. Apparently people missed that.
She saves humanity and a second later she needs to be saved by Nighcrawler. That takes a little of the splendor away.

-She helps cause electrical interference at the end so Xavier can speak to the president.
All those examples can give you an idea of what actually Storm was in the movie - A BACKGROUND.

And one more thing:
The point to these lines was the irony of it. This is Storm. Strong, silent, capable of great feats, and yet, here she is, underneath it all, just as vulnerable and frightened and uncertain of anyone. They were fantastic character moments which, had she nailed, would have been amazing onscreen. Halle Berry's acting didn't help uncover this theme.
I disagree - this scene carried a great emotional value. I didn't like it however. Why? Storm being fearful and ANGRY at regular humans? So what the hell is she doing at Xavier's, that's EXACTLY what Magneto is feeling! In the books Storm would NEVER said such a thing.

Now, that being said, I hope that in X3 Storm will be given justice.

[Morgoth]

Singer has no imagination and the other two could've been way better and huge in scope like the Lord of the Rings.

[Octoberist]

Singer built the franchise. Give him more credit.

I don't like it when people turn their backs on someone like that. It's very 'internet' like.

[RedIsNotBlue]

She was cast because she was an up and coming actress. No one could have forseen her being the massive star she is now. I mean, hell, after Next Friday, Ice Cube was the star of the week...similar to Halle after Bullworth.

I guess the movies Introducing Dorothy Dandridge, Why Do Fools Fall in Love, Losing Isaiah, and Boomerang did nothing for her. :o

She was one of the top black female actresses in Hollywood at the time which is why she even got consideration.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Singer built the franchise. Give him more credit.

I don't like it when people turn their backs on someone like that. It's very 'internet' like.

Yeah I agree. Singer made two great films that built a solid franchise. But I am however glad we got a director now that looks like he is going to take these characters places where Singer wouldn't have.

[Octoberist]

I agree.

But when I said people turn their backs on someone, it's so 'fanboyish'. People in real life don't do things like that. None of buds do that.

I guess people online are more critical, but maybe I just don't understand their views. I try to see things from both sides...too bad I'm in the minority.

[RedIsNotBlue]

I agree.

But when I said people turn their backs on someone, it's so 'fanboyish'. People in real life don't do things like that. None of buds do that.

I guess people online are more critical, but maybe I just don't understand their views. I try to see things from both sides...too bad I'm in the minority.

Well maybe some people her feel a sense of betrayal on the part of Singer. That they feel he chose Superman over finishing his X-Men trilogy. I dunno.

[Hotaru]

I will decide whether I'm happy or not after I see Ratner's X3. If it'll be good, I'll be glad to see Singer directing his Superman... in case X3 will suck, I will be really sad :D.

[Octoberist]

There's more to the story that we just don't know about, Red.

While, I was sad that Singer left, I felt like a lot of SHOOT was going on. My guess...studio politics than anything else.

[RedIsNotBlue]

There's more to the story that we just don't know about, Red.

While, I was sad that Singer left, I felt like a lot of SHOOT was going on. My guess...studio politics than anything else.

I am just telling you how some of these Singer bashers might feel.

And I am pretty sure Fox was trying to force Brian to do things he just didn't wanna do. I mean it is no secret Fox likes to be a part of the director's vision. It is one of the things I am worried about with Ratner. I pray Fox leaves him alone or Ratner keeps them away from work the best he can.

[CapBeerCino]

Singer built the franchise. Give him more credit.

I don't like it when people turn their backs on someone like that. It's very 'internet' like.

:up: Same goes for Avi Arad. Why ppl dishing the two of them all the time?

[RedIsNotBlue]

:up: Same goes for Avi Arad. Why ppl dishing the two of them all the time?

Well Arad has recognized mistakes in the past with Marvel movies. At least he is man enough to admit them though.

[XrubyRatner]

Singer built the franchise. Give him more credit.

I don't like it when people turn their backs on someone like that. It's very 'internet' like.he built jack! there was alraedy a major fanbase craving for a film wayyy Before Singer got on, just because it was the first xmen film ever of course everyone was gonna see it!!

[XrubyRatner]

Well maybe some people her feel a sense of betrayal on the part of Singer. That they feel he chose Superman over finishing his X-Men trilogy. I dunno.i felt a sense of OVERJOYING Happiness when that Ahole singer left! now the xmen can be free to be themselves, not singers lameass vision!:down

[Obsidian]

Well Arad has recognized mistakes in the past with Marvel movies. At least he is man enough to admit them though.

too bad he repeats them:o

[aaron]

Yeah only one thing arad thinks about

[pdrumans]

Singer was okay and he got X-Men on the movie map. As an X-Men fan since at least 1977, I was not always happy with the decisions that were made for the first two movies, so I am looking forward to some new direction.

[bosef982]

Quote by guard:

Yes, but you don't really see it that way watching the movie. The whole "convincing" was of screen, and that process was serving to introduce Nightcrawler, not to show Storm as an inteligent and toughtful person.


Yeah, that was supposed to be her scene. However, she didn't succeed, did she? The rockets were still coming, and Jean and then Magneto had to save the day. Out of this plane pursue scene all you remeber is Jean fiery eyes and meeting Magneto who saves our helpless heroes.


That made people see har as a motherly figure. Great job! (no sarcasm)


Ok, we know that, 'cos distrupting electrical systems is something Storm often does in the books. But in the movie it wasn't shown on screen, and that one sentence slipped away very easily among all this mayhem Mystique was doing.


She saves humanity and a second later she needs to be saved by Nighcrawler. That takes a little of the splendor away.


All those examples can give you an idea of what actually Storm was in the movie - A BACKGROUND.

And one more thing:

I disagree - this scene carried a great emotional value. I didn't like it however. Why? Storm being fearful and ANGRY at regular humans? So what the hell is she doing at Xavier's, that's EXACTLY what Magneto is feeling! In the books Storm would NEVER said such a thing.

Now, that being said, I hope that in X3 Storm will be given justice.


Going by your logic -- if you want to be charitable and call it that -- even though fans whine about how they don't work as a "team", you want them not too -- you want Storm to walk around kicking ass and taking names and no one helping her even though she's part of a TEAM!!!

Wow, are you Halle Berry?

[bosef982]

Well maybe some people her feel a sense of betrayal on the part of Singer. That they feel he chose Superman over finishing his X-Men trilogy. I dunno.

That sense of betrayl is unfounded. One, Singer left because Fox was jerking him around. He wanted X3 now, not later -- as the first post states. We would have alreayd had an X3 by now if Singer was still helming and had Fox allowed him to go ahead. Singer was restless, sick of putting projects on hiatus, and needed to make sure he kept his name out there -- he does work in a hard industry.

I have nothing but respect and understanding for Singer's decision to "leave" (if you want to call being escorted off the Fox studio by guards) and blame much of it on Fox's inability to realize they gold they had. Too bad.

Betrayl also implies a sort of obligation and debt. Singer never has, nor ever will, owe us anything. The self importance of fanboys is sickening.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

That sense of betrayl is unfounded. One, Singer left because Fox was jerking him around. He wanted X3 now, not later -- as the first post states. We would have alreayd had an X3 by now if Singer was still helming and had Fox allowed him to go ahead. Singer was restless, sick of putting projects on hiatus, and needed to make sure he kept his name out there -- he does work in a hard industry.

I have nothing but respect and understanding for Singer's decision to "leave" (if you want to call being escorted off the Fox studio by guards) and blame much of it on Fox's inability to realize they gold they had. Too bad.

Betrayl also implies a sort of obligation and debt. Singer never has, nor ever will, owe us anything. The self importance of fanboys is sickening.

:up:

And I just want to say, in the 3 - 4 page long or so debate raging on between you & The Guard vs. Lightning Strikez & X-Maniac (at least so it seems, though I know that there's no hostility on either side), I think you're totally spot on, bosef.

I won't say what I wanna say, because what I wanna say has already been posted.

Though I will say that Storm's character has been inaccurate to her comic counterpart. That much I will say. But she has been given plenty to do, and yea X2 was heavily based on Wolverine's history with Weapon X, Storm probably had more to do than Wolverine did.

I just wish there was a way to get Storm's current portrayal (as this go round is supposed to be more accurate) combined with Singer's X-Men 3 / X-Men 4 vision, because Singer was gonna bring EVERYTHING to the table that I wanted to see; Beast, Gambit, Sentinels, Danger Room...

With X-Men 3 (I won't say Ratner, because I don't thin he had a say in the overall storyline), I won't get Gambit (which is the biggest thing I ever wanted to see in an X-Men movie, and I will forever be deprived of that, thanks a lot Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg :mad: ), might not get Sentinels, could very possibly get a dead Cyclops & Xavier (I've always stated I never believed that would happen, but lately I'm starting to get kinda nervous over it) and might get a pointless, Tom Rothman sex romp between Storm and Wolverine.

With that said, I'm really really really hoping that Cyclops and Xavier don't die, because that will totally ruin the movie for me if they did (as well as the entire franchise)

If they stay alive, then this could potentially be the best movie of the franchise.

[bosef982]

:up:

And I just want to say, in the 3 - 4 page long or so debate raging on between you & The Guard vs. Lightning Strikez & X-Maniac (at least so it seems, though I know that there's no hostility on either side), I think you're totally spot on, bosef.

I won't say what I wanna say, because what I wanna say has already been posted.

Though I will say that Storm's character has been inaccurate to her comic counterpart. That much I will say. But she has been given plenty to do, and yea X2 was heavily based on Wolverine's history with Weapon X, Storm probably had more to do than Wolverine did.

I just wish there was a way to get Storm's current portrayal (as this go round is supposed to be more accurate) combined with Singer's X-Men 3 / X-Men 4 vision, because Singer was gonna bring EVERYTHING to the table that I wanted to see; Beast, Gambit, Sentinels, Danger Room...

With X-Men 3 (I won't say Ratner, because I don't thin he had a say in the overall storyline), I won't get Gambit (which is the biggest thing I ever wanted to see in an X-Men movie, and I will forever be deprived of that, thanks a lot Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg :mad: ), might not get Sentinels, could very possibly get a dead Cyclops & Xavier (I've always stated I never believed that would happen, but lately I'm starting to get kinda nervous over it) and might get a pointless, Tom Rothman sex romp between Storm and Wolverine.

With that said, I'm really really really hoping that Cyclops and Xavier don't die, because that will totally ruin the movie for me if they did (as well as the entire franchise)

If they stay alive, then this could potentially be the best movie of the franchise.

You know, I'm really seeing how you Gambit fans are annoyed and mad. Singer was going to bring alot...

You know what, I could see Gambit as some sort of mercenary hired by the gov't to take back Logan or something...hmm...

[CapBeerCino]

You know, I'm really seeing how you Gambit fans are annoyed and mad. Singer was going to bring alot...

You know what, I could see Gambit as some sort of mercenary hired by the gov't to take back Logan or something...hmm...

Or on Magnito's side - like in Evolution.

[The Guard]

Singer has zero vision. That's probably why the action scenes and characterizations suck in X-men 1 and 2[
Idiotic statement number...hell I've lost count. It's the blatant hyperbole here that keeps me warm at night.
singer really didnt grasp x-men, you can tell. he kept saying oh give characters enough to do, and blah blah.
What does that have to do with not grasping X-Men?

but theres no team work in x2, theres no team scenes period.
Uh, apparently you missed the part where Jean and Storm had to Boston as a duo. That's teamwork. Apparently you also missed the part where the X-Men join up with Magneto and Mystique, plan things, split off into teams, etc. That's teamwork, too.
I am not going to type detailed rebuttals in ever-smaller analytical justifications until I am validating a syllable or a single letter.
You know, I could simply type huge blocks of text that respond to your points, but most people get confused when I do that. I find it much easier to break them down, so that you can see that not only did I read your argument, I gave each point you made consideration. So when I debate, I debate point by point. If you don't like it, don't make point after point for your own argument.

What I think is what I think. What I believe is what I believe. You may attempt to wriggle between the lines and letters of my reply as much as you want, but I stand by those points.
I'm not wiggling anything. I'm addressing the points you made. Shall we go back and see if the points you made were points you now deny making? You're obviously not willing to stand behind what you believe if you have to provide any reasoining for it, or can't counter it when asked to.

But i note that YOU, the person who demands examples and evidence for every comma and apostrophe, were unable to authenticate your comments on Storm when i asked for hard evidence. To me that speaks volumes.

I don't demand evidence all the time. I demand evidence for an opinion when someone says something incredibly stupid...for instance "Cyclops was a jerk in X-MEN and X2". And I gave my evidence re: Halle Berry (much of which has been echoed by many on these boards over the years, btw, including those in the know). I also admitted it was something I heard, combined with various reports and rumors (most of which seem to have ended up being true). Rather than be evasive, I was up front, and told you the truth. I cannot provide hard evidence (and you know there's no such thing in this kind of situation). Nor can I recall the (probably dozens) of conversations I had with various people in the know circa 2000 or when X2 was in production about Halle Berry and the situation with Bryan Singer. Because I had those conversations in 2000 and several years ago. I do, however, recall what they were about. That's my evidence. I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you weant me to go dig up "evidence" to make you feel better? Because I'm pretty sure that I can dig up more than implies there was trouble on set than that everything was hunky dory. And the fact that Halle Berry ended up Storm when she did pointing to WHY she did is just common sense, especially given how FOX has handled Halle then and since.

Without facts and evidence, this is just a battle of opinions. And you cannot just take my opinion away and replace it with yours, so you can then feel much better. Not how it works.
It's hardly a battle of opinions. Only the political stuff about Halle is. The rest is very obviously a discussion of things found in the films.

I did not like those things i said i did not like. I loved the movie, but I did not like some of the portrayals. I think they stemmed from a misinterpretation of the source material.
That's you. I think (and have given some pretty clear examples of why) you're misinterpreting some of what you see onscreen to a large degree. As posters around here have done for YEARS. It's not a new trend. If you want to continue to misinterpret those aspects, and not listen to an ounce of reason, and hate certain aspects of the movie you need not hate simply because you misinterpreted them, be my guest.

Each of those things can be justified within the movie, but there are still moments when, on reflection, I do not feel it is not in sync with what I have been reading for the past 30 years.
What you have been reading for 30 years has hardly always been the same exact thing. Nor can comic book movies ever be slavishly faithful to most of the basics given the demands of drama and story these days (Which X-MEN and X2 were. Quite faithful to the basics).
Like it or not, these characters are going to get compared to their comicbook sources over and over.
Then compare them. But don't tell me a man who is trying not to let an ******* get the best of him is an outright jerk, or that because he lands a plane less than perfectly, he's incompetent. Those interpretations are insanely biased, and frankly, quite wrong. And if you try to do the same with any character in almost any movie, the characters look incompetent, what have you. Which is why I brought up BATMAN BEGINS, actually.
That's where the characters came from. Storm has been around for 30 years in the comics, that's a lot of stories and a lot of characterisation. She is well established. Cyclops and Jean have been around even longer, another 12 years.
I don't care. BATMAN BEGINS made massive deviations from even the basics of Bruce Wayne's crusade. SPIDER-MAN almost completely changed the characterization of Peter Parker. Do you see tons and tons of people even recognizing that?

In general, I think that Storm, and Halle, were fine. I do not watch the movies ranting and raving in anger or criticism but I can see room for improvements when i reflect on the films, especially when comparing with the Storm that is known from the comics. The same applies to other characters too.
You know, I've been trying to discuss just that. In fact, I made several specific points addressing your specific points. You can either address my concerns with YOUR views, and we can continue the debate, or we can argue so broadly that absolutely nothing will be discussed. I don't feel like doing that. Arguing broad concepts like "is it faithful or not?" bores the hell out of me and is a waste of time in my mind. I'd rather argue WHY it was or wasn't faithful.

A friend of mine who hadn't seen X1 before came round and watched it. I asked what he thought. First thing he said was that Storm 'didn't really do much'.
"Didn't really do much compared to what?" She, like most of the other characters, is right there in the thick of most of the important goings' on. She's clearly established as a teacher, one of Xavier's field leaders, an incredibly powerful being, and her emotional side and scenes rivals anything any of the other characters are given (or should have, at least).
He's not a comicbook fan, and did not know the character before. But his overriding impression of what he thought was a great film was of something that was not properly accomplished with the Storm character.
What the hell does that mean? "Something was not properly accomplished". And why are you ignoring all the points I made and then making more points?
My own local newspaper described Storm as being 'more like a mild drizzle.'
I don't agree, as I've never found snowstorms and lightning and such to be a mild drizzle, but whatever. If she did come across that way, it's because that's how Halle Berry/Bryan Singer portrayed her. I don't think anyone's denying that.
We can argue over what can be blamed on Halle, or on the lines, or on Bryan, but in my experience the inaccuracy of the Storm character is an overriding impression. It's reflected in the amount of debate on here, which usually turns into Halle-bashing.
The inaccuracy of Storm in X-MEN has nothing to do with how she was written. She was most definitely not written as "a mild drizzle". In any draft I've read. And ask Bosef about the ones he's seen.

What's Guardball?
Why, The Guard rolling over everyone, of course.
Huge arguments that go on for pages, where two or more people go back and forth responding to every line of the other persons post. The arguments are cyclical and rarely evolve. The end result is page upon page filled with enormous posts, representing hours of the posters life where nobody agrees on anything.
X-Maniac posted what is perhaps the only way out of the game.
The arguements, however, usually drag more people into them, and provide much more entertainment and thought-provoking debate. Accentuate the positive, you know?
Yes, but you don't really see it that way watching the movie. The whole "convincing" was of screen, and that process was serving to introduce Nightcrawler, not to show Storm as an inteligent and toughtful person.
I'm sorry...are you telling me you cannot see Storm being a part of tracking down Nightcrawler from watching the movie? Not only can you see that, you can see Storm and Nightcrawler bonding, right there, onscreen. She's clearly the one he trusts. And if they hadn't wanted to show her as an intelligent, thoguthful person, they wouldn't have had Storm say something to him about his scars like "They're beautiful. What are they?"
Yeah, that was supposed to be her scene. However, she didn't succeed, did she? The rockets were still coming, and Jean and then Magneto had to save the day. Out of this plane pursue scene all you remeber is Jean fiery eyes and meeting Magneto who saves our helpless heroes.
I love when people do this in a debate. Essentially they ignore the response to the original point they made and go off on a tangent to try to make the othe rperson look wrong. Hilarity ensues. Guess what? It doesn't MATTER if she succeeded or not. She certainly succeeded in getting those fighter jets off them, and the tornado scene was a massive display of power and pretty damn unique, which was the original point of contention, I believe. Maybe that's all you remember. I have a far better memory, apparently, though frankly, I tend to remember things like massive tornadoes better than Jean's fiery eyes and the quip from Magneto.
Ok, we know that, 'cos distrupting electrical systems is something Storm often does in the books. But in the movie it wasn't shown on screen, and that one sentence slipped away very easily among all this mayhem Mystique was doing.
It didn't need to be shown. Just implied. Sometimes less is more.
She saves humanity and a second later she needs to be saved by Nighcrawler. That takes a little of the splendor away.
No it doesn't. Your own heroic acts don't become less important to the story if someone helps you out later on.
All those examples can give you an idea of what actually Storm was in the movie - A BACKGROUND.
You're going to have to explain to me how saving the world and having one of the "call and response "lessons" of the film makes you a background character.

And one more thing:
I disagree - this scene carried a great emotional value. I didn't like it however. Why? Storm being fearful and ANGRY at regular humans? So what the hell is she doing at Xavier's, that's EXACTLY what Magneto is feeling! In the books Storm would NEVER said such a thing.
Yes she would. Storm's character has always had to deal with this insecurity, with her anger at humanity and circumstance. And you think FEAR isn't at the root of that? Think again. It's a very valid take on her character.

[spideyboy_1111]

Doesn't matter. I'll feel the exact same way if Scott is vaporized in the first 20 minutes of X3. He too wasn't handled right and it's a shame.

Basically Storm and Cyclops have been bastardized in this series so badly that if they're finally fixed in X3 fans are not going to know how to accept them. And it's sad, considering they are the leaders of the X-Men. Of course, we all know they were pushed into the background was to make way for Wolverine to be leader...as if the first two films didn't focus on him enough. :rolleyes: So to have a third Singer film focus on him would've made me sick. :down

The ONLY good thing about this concept was Sigourney Weaver being cast as Emma Frost...that's a brilliant proposal. The rest? BLECH.


except for the fact she was suppose to play the ex lover of charles Xavier! YUCK:down

[Hotaru]

By The Guard:
Yes she would. Storm's character has always had to deal with this insecurity, with her anger at humanity and circumstance. And you think FEAR isn't at the root of that? Think again. It's a very valid take on her character.
I disagree. In the comic books, it was Magneto who feared baselines 'cos of what they had done to him and his family during Holocaust. Out of this fear, he grew anger and hate towards humans.
Stom was considered a goddess among her tribe. Even after joining the X-Men and meeting mutant prosecutions she never was that angry at normal people just to sit at the school and be safe (and that's what she's suggesting Kurt does in X2) - she wanted to act to change the way people percived mutants. She left the Institute after Xavier decided to close mutant students in it and create their own sub-culture. She had an argument with him, she funded XSE with a goal of protecting baselines from the mutant threat!
The fear was the root of this decision. The fear of mutants feeling better than humans, not the fear towards all baselines! That's the crucial difference. The anger and fear she's showing in X2 is Magneto's way of thinking, not early-Xavier's and definetly not her ideology during XSE.

And about all the examples I've been talking about earlier on... there's a saying: "it's not how you start that counts, it's how you finish". Storm started good, and finished being saved by others (Magneto, Jean, Nightcrawler). That how I feel about that.
Yeah, sure, you may argue that by saying that I don't want Storm to be a team player and you may be right to some extent, but Ororo's my favorite charater and you can't be really surprised that I want to see her more. And seeing her more on screen doesn't impicate she's no longer a team player.

[X-Maniac]

Guard, your arrogance is astonishing. Just because people see things in a different way does not make them wrong, or idiotic. Your attempts to validate everything may not change the way other people saw it. (To go off on a tangent, take Narnia - some people have criticised it heavily for religious overtones in which Aslan was seen as a Jesus figure, some people have loved it for the same overtones, some people are refusing to see it because of hearing reports of these apparent overtones, I saw it with some friends and we saw none of these overtones at all - who is right, who is valid, who is an idiot and who isn't????)

I still would have liked to see Storm descending and landing on snow at the start of X1. The shot could have been done so we saw Cyclops, then saw Storm landing next to to him. It would have established flight. I would have liked to have seen it. Argue all you like, but I would have liked to have seen it. I believe it could have been done.

Apparently, you say, I am misinterpreting what I've seen in the films. But I can interpet them how i please, I can think of how I might have done them, what improvements i would make. What's wrong with that? Please do do dare to think that only you are able to interpret everthing correctly. That is crap. Must we see the films as something that can never be criticised? Are they that perfect in your eyes? Were you involved in them or something, and thus cannot stand anyone seeing them in any other way? So you truly think you can come here and 'roll over everyone'? Is that what you think? That your view, your opinion, can just roll over the top of everyone else's?

Anyway:


Shall we go back and see if the points you made were points you now deny making? You're obviously not willing to stand behind what you believe if you have to provide any reasoining for it, or can't counter it when asked to.

I do stand behind my points. All of them. They are what I believe.

I don't demand evidence all the time. I demand evidence for an opinion when someone says something incredibly stupid...for instance "Cyclops was a jerk in X-MEN and X2".

But don't tell me a man who is trying not to let an ******* get the best of him is an outright jerk, or that because he lands a plane less than perfectly, he's incompetent. Those interpretations are insanely biased, and frankly, quite wrong. And if you try to do the same with any character in almost any movie, the characters look incompetent, what have you. Which is why I brought up BATMAN BEGINS, actually.

I believe those two instances did make him look like a bit of a jerk. Call me stupid (which I am not) but that's what I think. Cyclops was made to seem less than competent - even Magneto walked over him after the 'Storm fry him' remark. Cyclops was in several instances not portrayed as a competent leader. The X-Men's underground base, uniforms and jet etc lead the viewer to believe they have been operating as a team for some time, this was not some virgin mission where they were all new to the game. In the male power balance, it was maverick Wolverine out on top most of the time. Yes, he was meant to be some no-nonsense lonewolf, but I still think Cyclops could have been more authoritative. Yes, these scenes -- the bad jet landing, the 'you're a dick', Magneto's response to the 'fry him' comment and also Wolverine's mockery of the codenames - added humour, worked within the film itself, and I don't think they were wrong, but i have a small question mark over them sometimes. Am i wrong to think that? Does that make me an idiot?

And I gave my evidence re: Halle Berry (much of which has been echoed by many on these boards over the years, btw, including those in the know). I also admitted it was something I heard, combined with various reports and rumors (most of which seem to have ended up being true). Rather than be evasive, I was up front, and told you the truth. I cannot provide hard evidence (and you know there's no such thing in this kind of situation). Nor can I recall the (probably dozens) of conversations I had with various people in the know circa 2000 or when X2 was in production about Halle Berry and the situation with Bryan Singer. Because I had those conversations in 2000 and several years ago. I do, however, recall what they were about. That's my evidence. I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you weant me to go dig up "evidence" to make you feel better? Because I'm pretty sure that I can dig up more than implies there was trouble on set than that everything was hunky dory. And the fact that Halle Berry ended up Storm when she did pointing to WHY she did is just common sense, especially given how FOX has handled Halle then and since.

Actually, I would like the exact evidence that there was trouble on set if you are going to make it one of your main reasons for Storm not being the Storm that Bryan wanted, and thus absolving him of any blame for the character being how she was. What are we trying to prove though? Nothing can be undone now. Halle was in X1 and X2. And I still believe she was not an accurate portrayal of the Storm character, largely because of the scriptwriting and the lines.

I think (and have given some pretty clear examples of why) you're misinterpreting some of what you see onscreen to a large degree. As posters around here have done for YEARS. It's not a new trend. If you want to continue to misinterpret those aspects, and not listen to an ounce of reason, and hate certain aspects of the movie you need not hate simply because you misinterpreted them, be my guest.

Misinterpretation is a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe the misinterpretation lies with the portrayal of Storm (and some other characters too, but I won't go off on a tangent here). These films were excellent movies, and excellent adaptations of the comicbooks, but that is not to say we cannot discuss where some fans felt they could have been improved. Surely you are not saying they are 100 per cent perfect and can never be criticised?

I don't care. BATMAN BEGINS made massive deviations from even the basics of Bruce Wayne's crusade. SPIDER-MAN almost completely changed the characterization of Peter Parker. Do you see tons and tons of people even recognizing that?

Well, Batman and Spider-Man had much less chance of error. Firstly, they focus on only one hero character so there is not such a delicate balancing act of multiple characters going on as in X-Men. Secondly, both have come along in a time of thriving superhero movies, whereas X1 was made at a time when there was nervousness and caution about the superhero genre after Schumacher's over-the-top interpretations. Thirdly, they are iconic heroes, so they are well-established before the movie even starts shooting.

"Didn't really do much compared to what?" She, like most of the other characters, is right there in the thick of most of the important goings' on. She's clearly established as a teacher, one of Xavier's field leaders, an incredibly powerful being, and her emotional side and scenes rivals anything any of the other characters are given (or should have, at least).

That was a friend's view not mine, an opinion that he expressed. The writer of X3 also says Storm was 'under-utilised' if i recall correctly. i don't agree with this entirely (my argument is more with character portrayal and some toning down of powers) but it does indicate that others have had a perception of the character not being as good as she could have been.

What the hell does that mean? "Something was not properly accomplished". And why are you ignoring all the points I made and then making more points?

I'm not ignoring them, I was trying hard to avoid these endless pages of debate that others here find boring and too much to wade through. And, yes, let me say it again: Something was not properly accomplished. The character was not right. Have you seen the feedback here from fans??? There is an overriding impression that the character was not accurate. This was not the Storm that comicbook fans were familiar with.

I don't agree, as I've never found snowstorms and lightning and such to be a mild drizzle, but whatever. If she did come across that way, it's because that's how Halle Berry/Bryan Singer portrayed her. I don't think anyone's denying that.

That newspaper used the 'mild drizzle' remark as a sarcastic comparison against the name 'Storm'. In other words, the name itself suggests something dramatic and powerful and strong. The character in the movie was not like that on several occasions. She was scared of humans, she had limited control (over a powerful upward gust of wind) -- those things do not tally with the name 'Storm'.

The inaccuracy of Storm in X-MEN has nothing to do with how she was written. She was most definitely not written as "a mild drizzle". In any draft I've read. And ask Bosef about the ones he's seen.

I shall have to see those drafts then. No way of me comparing things otherwise. Even so, and even if she were not written in that way, the directing of the character has to be in some way responsible. Directors should ensure accents do not waver, they should make sure wigs look perfect, they should try their damned hardest to be faithful to the source. Bryan Singer has to take some blame. He made brilliant movies, but there is still room for improvement, there are still areas where fans are not happy. And there is nothing wrong with that.


Why, The Guard rolling over everyone, of course.

Is this how you see yourself? Exactly who are you a guard for? Do you really see yourself as having the upper hand all the time????

It didn't need to be shown. Just implied. Sometimes less is more.

If that electrical interference scene at the dam didn't need to be shown, then why was it filmed? Why did they bother to film Halle flying and creating an electrical storm? It was cut for reasons of film length, most likely.

[Asteroid-Man]

There wasnt going to bbe a fourth one. Singer said in an early wizard issue before x-men 1 was even in theatres that he woould only made 3. and apacolypse woould appear in the last one and prof. x would most likly see the x-mens futures like the x-men:evolution

[The Guard]

I disagree. In the comic books, it was Magneto who feared baselines 'cos of what they had done to him and his family during Holocaust. Out of this fear, he grew anger and hate towards humans.

So what you're saying is that Magneto is the only character in the entire pantheon of the X-Men universe who has hate/fear as motivations. Riiight.

Storm was considered a goddess among her tribe.

Yes. Among her tribe. Not among hum ans. Storm faced discrimination and hatred in the comics like any other mutant in the X-Men universe. I recall quite well a story where she was being chased and I believe stoned before joining Professor X. I recall quite a bit of righteous anger from her over the years, directed at those who hate and fear mutants.

Even after joining the X-Men and meeting mutant prosecutions she never was that angry at normal people just to sit at the school and be safe (and that's what she's suggesting Kurt does in X2) - she wanted to act to change the way people percived mutants. She left the Institute after Xavier decided to close mutant students in it and create their own sub-culture. She had an argument with him, she funded XSE with a goal of protecting baselines from the mutant threat!

The fear was the root of this decision. The fear of mutants feeling better than humans, not the fear towards all baselines! That's the crucial difference. The anger and fear she's showing in X2 is Magneto's way of thinking, not early-Xavier's and definetly not her ideology during XSE.

Who cares if it was the EXACT specific motivatrion for doing what she does (clearly part of it IS, because she's also become a teacher, a mother figure, and seeks to educate the mutants at Xavier's school in the films)?

Storm in the comics does what she does as a response to hatred and bigotry, yes? Ditto the movies, clearly.

Storm's characterizatiom in X-MEN is a realistic, and valid human reaction to racism/bigotry, what have you. It has obvious strong ties to those themes. I don't care if there was ever a scene in an X-MEN comic where Storm said "I'm afraid of humans". It's a completely valid take on the character.

I blame the hell out of Halle Berry and Bryan Singer's direction for making it look like she is that meek, for completely missing the point that this is an ironic point of view for someone as strong as Storm to take. That she's this "scared of the world" kind of character. I don't think for a second that's what Bryan Singer and his writers originally intended, and earlier and later script drafts bear this out. Frankly, her LINES don't even indicate this. Nor do her actions. They indicate that on some level she fears those who hate her, and that she is angry with what she's seen, not that she's a terrified sex kitten.

And about all the examples I've been talking about earlier on... there's a saying: "it's not how you start that counts, it's how you finish". Storm started good, and finished being saved by others (Magneto, Jean, Nightcrawler). That how I feel about that.

They were ALL saved by Jean at the end of X3. Does that invalidate their prior characterizations or make them less worthy as characters? I mean, Professor X had to be rescued after he almost destroyed billions of lives. Does that invalidate his character? Why does Storm being rescued by her new friend bother you so much?

Yeah, sure, you may argue that by saying that I don't want Storm to be a team player and you may be right to some extent, but Ororo's my favorite charater and you can't be really surprised that I want to see her more.

So it's just bias then. A desire to see Storm elevated beyond other characters. Glad we cleared that up.

And seeing her more on screen doesn't impicate she's no longer a team player.

I think you're referring to Bosef's comments, not mine.

Guard, your arrogance is astonishing. Just because people see things in a different way does not make them wrong, or idiotic.

It most certainly does make them wrong if they are in fact, wrong, and refuse to accept reason. Cyclops defending himself from emotional attacks or Wolverine's bullying does not make him a jerk by almost any standard we use to judge people. Ever. And hell, Cyclops HAS been portrayed as more of a jerk in the comics many times. So if he DID come across as a bit testy, it'd actually be very IN CHARACTER for him.

Your attempts to validate everything may not change the way other people saw it.

Of course it won't, because how many people are actually open-minded? I'm willing to say "maybe Cyclops does come across as a jerk". But when I look at the scene, how it's written, how it's played, how it's acted, he doesn 't. Wolverine does.

(To go off on a tangent, take Narnia - some people have criticised it heavily for religious overtones in which Aslan was seen as a Jesus figure, some people have loved it for the same overtones, some people are refusing to see it because of hearing reports of these apparent overtones, I saw it with some friends and we saw none of these overtones at all - who is right, who is valid, who is an idiot and who isn't????)

Well, odds are the people who know some background on C.S. Lewis, realize what Aslan was created as, and what his part in Narnia is would be the non-idiots if it ever came to debate. Aslan clearly fits the mold as a literary Christ figure in several ways. That's pretty much simple fact. Whether you want to allow that notion to enter your head as you watch the movie is up to you, but good luck proving it doesn't exist in a qualified debate. But we're not talking about religious overtones, we're talking about CHARACTER ASPECTS. These aren't abstract th ings we can just twist to be what we want, they are right there in the script, and onscreen. Specific ones, I.E, "was Cyclops portrayed as a jerk". And frankly, your examples (or anyone who takes that view) of why you think Cyclops was a jerk are like me going "Well, Bruce Wayne cried in BATMAN BEGINS, therefore he's portrayed as a crybaby."

Because the majority of the time, this is now how Cyclops is portrayed. When he is stern, he has GOOD REASONS for it. He comes across as a very caring, albeit stern member of the X-Men who simply doesn't like being messed with after a certain point. JUST LIKE IN THE COMICS. The difference is, unlike the comics, he doesn't engage Wolverine in fisticuffs. That would make him a jerk. :)

I still would have liked to see Storm descending and landing on snow at the start of X1. The shot could have been done so we saw Cyclops, then saw Storm landing next to to him. It would have established flight. I would have liked to have seen it. Argue all you like, but I would have liked to have seen it. I believe it could have been done.

It wasn't, though. It would have been hard to do in the middle of a snowstorm visual, they might not have had the money to waste, who knows why it wasn't done that way. What is there worked quite well visually anyway.

Apparently, you say, I am misinterpreting what I've seen in the films.

Not all of it, surely, just some aspects. Many fans around here do and have.

But I can interpet them how i please, I can think of how I might have done them, what improvements i would make. What's wrong with that?

Nothing. The only thing that I see you doing "wrong" is taking one or two lines, ignoring their context in the film, and blowing them WAY out of proportion in how the character has been portrayed. Too many people here allow their own personal bias to sway them so much that they end up misterpreting what's onscreen.

Example: In the comics, Cyclops is the field leader of the X-Men. He is also the leader in the movies. But since they didn't show a whole LOT of field leading in the films, you might say "He wasn't a leader, or a capable one" when in fact, all the evidence in X-MEN points to the fact that he was. Honestly, I wonder how often some of you watch these movies and how much you accurately remember with some of the comments I hear about them every day.

Please do do dare to think that only you are able to interpret everthing correctly.

I don't. And I'm not referring to "everything". Merely specific aspects of the film. And frankly, I provide facts to back up my statements. Not just opinion.

That is crap. Must we see the films as something that can never be criticised?

No, and I have never implied this.

Are they that perfect in your eyes?

No, and I have never implied this.

Were you involved in them or something, and thus cannot stand anyone seeing them in any other way?

No I wasn't involved with them. I loathe blatant misinterpreation of what's onscreen. In any film.

So you truly think you can come here and 'roll over everyone'? Is that what you think? That your view, your opinion, can just roll over the top of everyone else's?

It was a joke. Someone made a joke at my expense. I went along with it.

I do stand behind my points. All of them. They are what I believe.

But you didn't. You were evasive. Standing behind your points consisted of "it's my opinion". That's not standing behind it, that's repeating yourself. So tell me one more time, what do you not like about the X-Men movies? Why do you feel Cyclops has been incorrectly portrayed?

I believe those two instances did make him look like a bit of a jerk.

If you ignore context, and how Wolverine is treating him, sure. Me, I think those two scenes made him look like he was angry at Wolverine for treating him like ****. Which does not make one a jerk. Blasting a hole in Wolverine's chest would make him a jerk. Tossing the keys of the bike Wolverine stole (twice) and brought back drained of gas? Hardly.

Call me stupid (which I am not) but that's what I think.

Cyclops was made to seem less than competent - even Magneto walked over him after the 'Storm fry him' remark.

Magneto didn't walk over him. He pointed out the obvious. Occassional errors in judgement doesn't make Cyclops incompetent. It makes him human. And I don't know if you've noticed, but the whole point of that scene is that Magneto IS walking over them. They are pretty much out of their league when it comes to him.

Cyclops was in several instances not portrayed as a competent leader.

Examples, please. Though the problem seems to be that you believe "errors" equals incompetence.

The X-Men's underground base, uniforms and jet etc lead the viewer to believe they have been operating as a team for some time, this was not some virgin mission where they were all new to the game.

It doesn't matter. Are you telling me people with experience never make mistakes?

In the male power balance, it was maverick Wolverine out on top most of the time.

On top in what way? That he got most of the insults in, or always had the last word? Untrue. It was in fact usually Cyclops who had the last word in their conversations. Was Wolverine more of an *******? Yes. Did he sink lower than Cyclops did? Yes.

But in the end...not only did Cyclops lead the team, but Cyclops came up with the plan to save the day, and Cyclops ended up with the girl. So tell me how Wolverine was on top? Because he postured and strutted more and was more of the brash *******? That doesn't put him on top on the power balance, it means he TRIED to be through his demonstrations of masculinity. And it's his character, that's how their relationship is supposed to be. I mean, some of you act liuke you're disappointed because Cyclops didn't b last Wolverine's penis off when he gave him lip. Cyclops didn't need to. H ewas the better man.

Yes, he was meant to be some no-nonsense lonewolf, but I still think Cyclops could have been more authoritative.

And the point of his being more authoritative would have been what, exactly? Wolverine wasn't going to follow his orders or show him much respect anyway. Cyclops was being as authoritative as he could without sinking to Wolverine's level. Which is THEIR RELATIONSHIP FROM THE COMICS other than a few key points where they beat the hell out of each other, which would have been just pointless in this movie.

Yes, these scenes -- the bad jet landing, the 'you're a dick', Magneto's response to the 'fry him' comment and also Wolverine's mockery of the codenames - added humour, worked within the film itself, and I don't think they were wrong, but i have a small question mark over them sometimes. Am i wrong to think that? Does that make me an idiot?

You're taking some things far too literally, and blowing most of it way, way out of context.

What you're doing here is using those few moments (which don't denote incompetence) to say "cyclops is incompetent". You're not even taking into context the situations, OR any of the things he did at other points in the film that CLEARLY show he is NOT incompetent, and very capable. Is he perfect? No. A perfect character is BORING.

Actually, I would like the exact evidence that there was trouble on set if you are going to make it one of your main reasons for Storm not being the Storm that Bryan wanted, and thus absolving him of any blame for the character being how she was.

I haven't absolved Singer for the blame. Singer was clashing with producers over Halle from pretty much Day One. There were several reports and rumors to this effect. Do you really want me to dig them up? Are the dozens of threads where other people have posted the same exact thing repeatedly not enough for you?

What are we trying to prove though? Nothing can be undone now. Halle was in X1 and X2. And I still believe she was not an accurate portrayal of the Storm character, largely because of the scriptwriting and the lines.

Oh no , a comic book movie presents something that hasn't always been a driving force behind the comic book character's motivations to give him/her more depth. Run for the hills...wait, wait...it seems that almost EVERY COMIC BOOK MOVIE EVER MADE contains that.

Misinterpretation is a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe the misinterpretation lies with the portrayal of Storm (and some other characters too, but I won't go off on a tangent here).

No, please do.

These films were excellent movies, and excellent adaptations of the comicbooks, but that is not to say we cannot discuss where some fans felt they could have been improved. Surely you are not saying they are 100 per cent perfect and can never be criticised?

No. And as I've said before, I've never implied such.

Well, Batman and Spider-Man had much less chance of error. Firstly, they focus on only one hero character so there is not such a delicate balancing act of multiple characters going on as in X-Men.

Uh, the point I made was that those films weren't all that faithful. Frankly if they had less to worry out, they could have been even MORE faithful than they were.

Secondly, both have come along in a time of thriving superhero movies, whereas X1 was made at a time when there was nervousness and caution about the superhero genre after Schumacher's over-the-top interpretations.

And that has what to do with the fact that both BATMAN BE GINS and SPIDER-MAN made deviations from the source material as X-MEN did?

[Thirdly, they are iconic heroes, so they are well-established before the movie even starts shooting.

Then why does the movie deviate from the well-established source material? And are we really pretending the X-Men aren't somewhat iconic, and well established, too?

I'm not ignoring them, I was trying hard to avoid these endless pages of debate that others here find boring and too much to wade through.

If people find discussion boring, what the hell are they doing here? Odd that people continue to wade through these endless four pages. If they don't want to debate, or to see people make points, they probably shouldn't go into a thread expressly set up for people to make points and discuss things.

And, yes, let me say it again: Something was not properly accomplished. The character was not right. Have you seen the feedback here from fans??? There is an overriding impression that the character was not accurate. This was not the Storm that comicbook fans were familiar with.

I have never said Storm was perfect. I've only said that much of what was there was accurate in terms of the basics. And it was. And frankly, for a supporting character in a crowded comic book movie, I don't see how you can ask for a whole lot more. Other superhero films sometimes don't even get the basics right about major players.

That newspaper used the 'mild drizzle' remark as a sarcastic comparison against the name 'Storm'. In other words, the name itself suggests something dramatic and powerful and strong.

I get that. But that's the performance, not the part. Storm was written as strong in the script, and her actions and dialogue in also convey that.

The character in the movie was not like that on several occasions. She was scared of humans, she had limited control (over a powerful upward gust of wind) -- those things do not tally with the name 'Storm'.

And yet, on several occassions, she was like that. This is like saying "Wolverine" was more like a duck billed platypus because he was tender and emotional at points in the film. How does one carefully float someone up on a gust of wind? Honestly. Sh e's not using telekenisis, she's using powerful wind gusts.

I shall have to see those drafts then. No way of me comparing things otherwise.

Bosef might be able to post some of the dialogue exchanges between Storm and other characters for you.

Even so, and even if she were not written in that way, the directing of the character has to be in some way responsible. Directors should ensure accents do not waver, they should make sure wigs look perfect, they should try their damned hardest to be faithful to the source.

Bryan Singer has to take some blame. He made brilliant movies, but there is still room for improvement, there are still areas where fans are not happy. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Never said there was.

Is this how you see yourself? Exactly who are you a guard for? Do you really see yourself as having the upper hand all the time????

"The Guard" is a screename I've had since I was 17. And the "rolling over" thing is a joke. "BALL". "ROLLING". Me playing on the fact that everyone thinks I just do this to roll over other people's opinions.

If that electrical interference scene at the dam didn't need to be shown, then why was it filmed? Why did they bother to film Halle flying and creating an electrical storm? It was cut for reasons of film length, most likely.

Why was it filmed? So the X-Men don't just suddenly appear inside the base. Why wasn't it shown it's in entirety? Budget, probably. And because it didn't have to be.

[StevieNicks1988]

Good God, go TG. :up:

[Hotaru]

The Guard, you're either misreading what I have written on purpose or it's your superego allowing you to understand words the way fits your ego the most. Preventing such reaction on your side - it was not an attack, it was a consideration on why you write the way you do.
So what you're saying is that Magneto is the only character in the entire pantheon of the X-Men universe who has hate/fear as motivations. Riiight.
Out of the context of this whole discussion it's easy to understand, that I was referring to Magneto as one of the most extreme examples of where can your fears take you. I have never said that he's the only one.

Yes. Among her tribe. Not among humans. Storm faced discrimination and hatred in the comics like any other mutant in the X-Men universe. I recall quite well a story where she was being chased and I believe stoned before joining Professor X. I recall quite a bit of righteous anger from her over the years, directed at those who hate and fear mutants.
Nightcrawler was the one chased by the mob, not Ororo. Many times she was showing regrets that her looks are normal and in casual clothes she can walk the streets without being noticed, while people like Hank, Angel or Kurt, not mentioning Morlocks had to hide behind image inducers. Of course, she was prosecuted many times after joining the X-Men, fighting by their side or as their leader, however she was never that fearful and angry at humans to hide in Xavier's school. And that's the way she's being portrayed in X2!!!
Let me quote Magneto and Storm, from X-Men Unlimited #39. If you don't belive me on what Storm motives were, maybe you'll believe one of the books' writers.
MAGNETO:
Of all the X-Men only you have avoided the prejudice and persecution that typically accompanies mutants upon their power's manifestation. Only you, with your incredible abilities, had become so revered in your homeland, that your people regarded you as a god! Why did you relinquish it all to follow Xavier?

There's some action, Magneto tries killing regular humans, Storm saves them and in return receives a bullet through her arm from a guy she just saved.

MAGNETO:
See how these humans bite the hands of their superiors? How can you consider saving their pathetic lifes?
STORM:
How are we any better!? Do we not bleed? Do we not fear death as they do? (...) Maybe I should not safe their lives? Maybe mutants and humans should not coexist? These are but probabilities. But there are also possibilities. Ones with hope.
If this dialoge and what I have said earlier don't get through to you and you don't understand an error they have done in very understanding of Ororo's character, then sorry - there's no use for me to keep trying. I could rewrite the dialoges from Shism storyline (her discussion with Xavier and Emma), or from the time she funded X.S.E., or from Life-Death when she was saving a human infant and hundreds of more, but I guess it would be pointless, as you're not even considering an option of you not being right.
Storm in the comics does what she does as a response to hatred and bigotry, yes?
No.
Who cares if it was the EXACT specific motivation for doing what she does?
Apparently, I do.
So it's just bias then. A desire to see Storm elevated beyond other characters. Glad we cleared that up.
I have said that you may argue, for you to read in between the lines that this argument with me would be pointles, 'cos my feelings towards the character are already established. Is it so strange that I would like to see me favorite character more than characters I don't like? Is that bias? I don't think so - that's being normal. Again, your superego is doing some nasty work on your process of understanding.
It most certainly does make them wrong if they are in fact, wrong, and refuse to accept reason.
Now read that. You've said that, Guard. Do I smell hipocrisy?

[Electrix]

Guard....I had to keep scrolling for about 3 minutes to get to the bottom of your post

:D

[Lightning Strykez!]

*shakes head*

;)

[Seen]

After seeing the X3 trailer I think we are better without Singer.

[The Guard]

Out of the context of this whole discussion it's easy to understand, that I was referring to Magneto as one of the most extreme examples of where can your fears take you. I have never said that he's the only one.

It's not "easy to understand that", since you didn't use any qualifiers. You just disagreed, apparently with my entire point about Storm, as a mutant, being subjected to people who hate and fear her and having some insecurities and anger because of it (But I guess when she has to throw down with bigots, she's angry in the comics for no reason, right?), and went on a rant about how that's Magneto's bag. Why even make the point? I'm not stupid. I know Magneto's motivations are not the same as Storm's. Never at any point did I compare them to Storm's or try to make her look as extreme as Magneto.

Nightcrawler was the one chased by the mob, not Ororo.

In two particular versions of the story, yes. I have seen Storm chased/attacked by a mob and discriminated against in the comics. She was in civilian clothes and it was one of those "flashback" stories. Don't ask me to remember which issue, or what title, because I can't. But I've seen it.

Many times she was showing regrets that her looks are normal and in casual clothes she can walk the streets without being noticed, while people like Hank, Angel or Kurt, not mentioning Morlocks had to hide behind image inducers. Of course, she was prosecuted many times after joining the X-Men, fighting by their side or as their leader, however she was never that fearful and angry at humans to hide in Xavier's school. And that's the way she's being portrayed in X2!!!

She's hiding? How is she hiding in Xavier's school in X-MEN or X2. I seem to recall her out in public several times.

Let me quote Magneto and Storm, from X-Men Unlimited #39. If you don't belive me on what Storm motives were, maybe you'll believe one of the books' writers.

I never DISAGREED with you that this character aspect was one of Storm's motives. But there are many parts to her character.

MAGNETO:
Of all the X-Men only you have avoided the prejudice and persecution that typically accompanies mutants upon their power's manifestation. Only you, with your incredible abilities, had become so revered in your homeland, that your people regarded you as a god! Why did you relinquish it all to follow Xavier?

There's some action, Magneto tries killing regular humans, Storm saves them and in return receives a bullet through her arm from a guy she just saved.

MAGNETO:
See how these humans bite the hands of their superiors? How can you consider saving their pathetic lifes?
STORM:
How are we any better!? Do we not bleed? Do we not fear death as they do? (...) Maybe I should not safe their lives? Maybe mutants and humans should not coexist? These are but probabilities. But there are also possibilities. Ones with hope.

Except that Storm HASN'T avoided prejudice and persecution, going by what I've read in the comics. She avoided it in her homeland, not when she went elsewhere, not when she was "outed" as a mutant.

If this dialoge and what I have said earlier don't get through to you and you don't understand an error they have done in very understanding of Ororo's character, then sorry - there's no use for me to keep trying.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is more to a character than one motivation, characterwise and psychologically speaking. I'm not saying that she doesn't have other motives beyond anger. I'm saying that pretty much IS one of her motivations.

I could rewrite the dialoges from Shism storyline (her discussion with Xavier and Emma), or from the time she funded X.S.E., or from Life-Death when she was saving a human infant and hundreds of more, but I guess it would be pointless, as you're not even considering an option of you not being right.

I don't care if you can quote three sources that indicates her motivation is to help people and prevent all out war while fostering peace. I've never, ever said that wasn't the case. And no, that wasn't heavily featured in X-MEN (though you could easily make the assumpti on that that IS her motive, since she chooses to fight for this particular cause and to teach it at the school. She's obviously not just in it for herself in this film franchise). All I've said is that what IS there in the films IS in many ways a part of what made Storm such a fascinating character in the comics.

Attacking me for a point i never made is not going to sway me. I never said that they nailed Storm's motivations in relation to the comic books. Never even implied it. I only said that they nailed some of her basic character aspects, and implied that the ones shown on film were valid takes on who her character might be in the real world, in the context of the films.

No.

So what you're telling me, is that in the comics, Storm trying to foster understanding as a response to the hatred and bigotry that would otherwise exist, has nothing to do with responding to hatred and bigotry? That little excerpt you just showed me only fuirther PROVES that this is one of her aims.

In large part, Xavier's actions are all about responding to hatred and bigotry, too.

I have said that you may argue, for you to read in between the lines that this argument with me would be pointles, 'cos my feelings towards the character are already established. Is it so strange that I would like to see me favorite character more than characters I don't like? Is that bias? I don't think so - that's being normal. Again, your superego is doing some nasty work on your process of understanding.

Yes, wanting to see your character more than another character that is bias. Bias is not neccessarily always a bad thing.

It most certainly does make them wrong if they are in fact, wrong, and refuse to accept reason.

Now read that. You've said that, Guard. Do I smell hipocrisy?

No. Because your point about Storm changes nothing about what I've said. I have never once implied that Storm does not care about other people, or that her quest is purely personal. All I've said is that quite a bit of what appeared in X-MEN and X2 is in line with the comic book character's motives and characterization. What exactly have I been hypocritical about?

Personally, she is a kind, gentle, deep soul with a great affection for nature, life and those she holds dear. However, many do not see this side as her intelligence and often stoic demeanor can be off putting.

One of several references I found to Storm's gentle side. I'm sure I can find more.

[Lightning Strykez!]

After seeing the X3 trailer I think we are better without Singer.


Huh? What have you done with Seen?

I think someone has hacked into Seen's SHH user account! :eek:

[Seen]

Huh? What have you done with Seen?

I think someone has hacked into Seen's SHH user account! :eek:

I know...but watching that trailer and seeing those images of Beast, Angel, Juggernaut and the old gang...damn it just got me very excited.

Really, that trailer makes it possible that X3 can be the best X-Men film yet. It delivered far more than the Superman trailer.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I know...but watching that trailer and seeing those images of Beast, Angel, Juggernaut and the old gang...damn it just got me very excited.

Really, that trailer makes it possible that X3 can be the best X-Men film yet. It delivered far more than the Superman trailer.


Wonders never cease....

[RedIsNotBlue]

I just really hope that they aren't blowing their load with the trailers like they did with Fantastic Four.

[X-Maniac]

Well, yes.. but now they have seen they have to deliver... I pray to God we get it. We've only seen 99 seconds of footage, so let's hope there's a whole lot more.

Remember, a whole FX company is handling Phoenix, and since we saw no Phoenix effects, there must be a helluva lot we haven't seen. We know Angel's 'flight of freedom' was filmed, as pictures of the filming were leaked, but that was not in the trailer.

I publicly plead to Brett, Zak, Avi and Fox not to let us down. To keep back some amazing drama and action. To think EPIC.

[Yve]

I still would have liked to see Storm descending and landing on snow at the start of X1. The shot could have been done so we saw Cyclops, then saw Storm landing next to to him. It would have established flight. I would have liked to have seen it. Argue all you like, but I would have liked to have seen it. I believe it could have been done.

I'm sure it could have been done, but did you ever consider that maybe they refrained from showing Storm fly early on, so that when she finally did (during the fight with Toad) that it would have more impact? Which in my opinion, it did. It was an impressive moment. It's like in Jaws, where we don't see the shark until the end, but when we do it's awesome. :)

I still would have loved to have seen Singer's take on X3. Especially after reading what some of his plans were. It seems like his basic plotline was a logical extension of the first two films. And I have faith in Singer based on what he accomplished with the previous two. His take on the third film surely would have surpassed both 1 & 2. :(

[Ichi]

After seeing the X3 trailer I think we are better without Singer.

A 90 second teaser really did that for you? It doesn't even tell you what the plot of the movie is. Do you not like Singer's X movies to begin with?

[Seen]

A 90 second teaser really did that for you?

Yes. The epic shots, the action, the intensity of the drama, the new classic X-Men characters...it just feels more bigger than Singer's films.

And I LOVE Singer, so that's saying a lot.

It doesn't even tell you what the plot of the movie is.

Magneto's line about a cure pretty much summarizes the plot.

Do you not like Singer's X movies to begin with?

Ask a few members on this board. I absolutley loved his X-Men films, but X3 looks by far the most incredible.

Alas, I'll reserve proper judgement until I see the film, but I'm just thinking out loud.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Yes. The epic shots, the action, the intensity of the drama, the new classic X-Men characters...it just feels more bigger than Singer's films.

And I LOVE Singer, so that's saying a lot.



Magneto's line about a cure pretty much summarizes the plot.



Ask a few members on this board. I absolutley loved his X-Men films, but X3 looks by far the most incredible.

Alas, I'll reserve proper judgement until I see the film, but I'm just thinking out loud.


:up:

[cookiva]

Yes. The epic shots, the action, the intensity of the drama, the new classic X-Men characters...it just feels more bigger than Singer's films.

And I LOVE Singer, so that's saying a lot.



Magneto's line about a cure pretty much summarizes the plot.



Ask a few members on this board. I absolutley loved his X-Men films, but X3 looks by far the most incredible.

Alas, I'll reserve proper judgement until I see the film, but I'm just thinking out loud.

Gotta agree with Red....:up:

[RedIsNotBlue]

But regarding the plot thing. This is supposed to be a TEASER. The plots shouldn't be there right in front of your face. A teaser is supposed to make you excited, speculate, and to look forward to what is coming. There will be MANY plots and subplots in this film.

[Seen]

But regarding the plot thing. This is supposed to be a TEASER. The plots shouldn't be there right in front of your face. A teaser is supposed to make you excited, speculate, and to look forward to what is coming. There will be MANY plots and subplots in this film.

Exactly. And this trailer definitely accomplished that goal. Of course since us fans know more about the plot from rumors and speculation, so it's a bit more clearer, imagine the excitment and wonder when regular audiences see it.

I can only imagine a lot of the scenes in the trailer, like the funeral scene and such, will have a lot more mystery and intrigue to it from a fresh perspective. It has a finality feel to it, which should be inticing.

[RedIsNotBlue]

How do you think it compared to the Superman teaser Seen?

[Ichi]

Yes. The epic shots, the action, the intensity of the drama, the new classic X-Men characters...it just feels more bigger than Singer's films.

What is epic about it? Some action scenes and more mutants? Singer's movies seemed to be building in a similar direction.

Magneto's line about a cure pretty much summarizes the plot.

I hope that isn't the entire plot. The movie may end up being a bunch of doctors running around trying to injected the X-Men with "the cure".

I'm not trying to bust your horns or anything. Just trying to make sure everyone realizes that this is just a teaser. They're whole movies of Singer's X-Men and 99 seconds of Ratner's and people are already going "This is/will be way better than anything Singer could have or would've done.". You can like the teaser(I do), but I think it is shallow to say stuff like we're better off without Singer before even seeing X3.

[Seen]

How do you think it compared to the Superman teaser Seen?

It totally blows the Superman trailer out of the water. With this you get a lot more -- that equates to a lot more excitment, a lot more energy and a lot more intrigue.

Plus it was just so cool to see the old gang back together and seeing Beast, Juggernaut and Angel was a huge added bonus.

When I saw the X3 trailer it gave me chills. The good kind. Something in retrospect the Superman teaser accomplished but not nearly as well.

[Seen]

What is epic about it? Some action scenes and more mutants? Singer's movies seemed to be building in a similar direction.

Singer's movies never had an epic quality -- they were admittedly smaller, more character-driven pictures. Here we have the Golden Gate Bridge sequence, which looked amazing from those small snippets, with TONS of mutants causing havoc, we have Magneto, Storm, and Wolverine doing things we haven't seen before, and the list goes on.

Plus Xavier's V.O. -- "the last stand", "great sacriface", etc all points to a grand direction. In X2 there was actually an implication that the waters are calm and all is good -- watch President McKenna gesture at the file Xavier gave him and Xavier himself smiling, giving some reassurance. There was little sense of trepidation, actually in retrospect, that alluded to harder times like the ending for the first X-MEN did.

Here, we have Xavier speak of harder times. We see Magneto with TONS of followers doing horrible acts, and we get a feel that people will suffer consequences and that nothing will remain the same. It forshadows something far more epic and hostile than Singer's films suggested.

I hope that isn't the entire plot. The movie may end up being a bunch of doctors running around trying to injected the X-Men with "the cure".

I doubt that. We really don't know for sure, although rumors hint at other elements like character relationships and other factors that will play a large role in forming and shapping the story.

Like others have said, a teaser isn't suppose to spoil the plot for you but allude to it. Get you excited and speculating. And that's certainly what the X3 teaser did.

I'm not trying to bust your horns or anything.

Of course not. :)

Just trying to make sure everyone realizes that this is just a teaser. [/ They're whole movies of Singer's X-Men and 99 seconds of Ratner's and people are already going "This is/will be way better than anything Singer could have or would've done."

I did say I was going to wait and reserve proper judgement until the right time of the film's release, but really this is months of speculation and rumors. This trailer really confirms a lot of those. Myself, I was speculative but the execution thus far seems incredible.

You can like the teaser(I do), but I think it is shallow to say stuff like we're better off without Singer before even seeing X3.

Well we've seen stuff in this teaser that we didn't even get in Singer's films, so for me it's all relative.

[TheVileOne]

Singer's movies never had an epic quality -- they were admittedly smaller, more character-driven pictures. Here we have the Golden Gate Bridge sequence, which looked amazing from those small snippets, with TONS of mutants causing havoc, we have Magneto, Storm, and Wolverine doing things we haven't seen before, and the list goes on.

Even though in Singer's movie we had sequences on Liberty Island, White House, and the Alkali lake dam which I'd say were pretty EPIC.

[Seen]

Even though in Singer's movie we had sequences on Liberty Island, White House, and the Alkali lake dam which I'd say were pretty EPIC.

The Liberty Island sequence was mostly IN DOORS. As was the White House sequence, which was cool nonetheless. The Alakli Lake Dam sequence was an improvement, yes.

But they weren't nearly as epic as Magneto re-routing the entire Golden Gate Bridge, infiltrating Alcatraz, toppling vehicles, with multiple mutants, Storm flying & fighting assorted mutant villains, a Danger Room sequence (supposedly, with Colossus giving Wolverine the Fastball special) etc etc.

This film just seems to boast more spectactular action sequences, where Singer's films had them in short supply.