Iceman vs Human Torch

[icetorchdude]

I was wondering who would win. Because since Iceman does not know the limits of his power,and Human Torch can get as hot as the sun, who would win between the two titans?Personally I think Iceman would.

[ghost113]

Big fan of both characters but the human torch would melt Mr. drake easily

[Brainiac 8]

If Human Torch can go Supernova and destroy all life on earth, then I don't think Iceman has much of a chance.:)

[Sweeney Todd]

Iceman didn't even know his powers were still active. Johnny takes it.

[Dark Beast]

Torches can't burn when they're packed in Ice. Sorry Johnny...

[Colossal Spoons]

If Human Torch can go Supernova and destroy all life on earth, then I don't think Iceman has much of a chance.:)

When has he been able to do that!?

[Arkady Rossovich]

If your talking about Iceman from the 90`s,and the Classic Human Torch.Then its a really hard battle to decide on.

[Cyclops]

I think Johnny takes it. He's been at the hero business longer, is more creative and experimental with his powers, plus he's faster and more aggressive than Bobby.

[cookiva]

I gotta go with Johnny, but if it was Emma Frost in Bobbys body, then I gotta go with Iceman. Remember, Iceman doesnt even know half of the stuff he can do.....

[psylockolussus]

Torch is hot as Sun, Iceman can't beat him.

[Brainiac 8]

When has he been able to do that!?



Powers

The torch's primary power is to envelop himself in, and manipulate flame. The Human Torch can direct this flame as a blast of superheated plasma, or manipulate it for various shapes, temperatures, or effects. The Torch has the ability to fly at speeds approaching the speed of sound, and he has vaporized bullets in flight. The uppermost level of The Human Torch's power is his "Nova Flame," which is usually released omni-directionally and reaches temperatures of 1,000,000 degrees. Any level lower than this cannot burn him. The Human Torch can also direct beams of "Nova Heat" as an offensive weapon for very brief periods of time before his heat energy gives out.

I think that would be enough to wipe out a good many people, plus on resident man made of ice.;)

[icetorchdude]

Well,
Since Iceman was invaded by Emma Frost, he is much more experimental and has even explored transporting himself without the use of his customary ice slides. I think that Iceman would win because he has frozen entire body's of water *ON CONTACT*! I Think that is real serious crap.Even if Torch used his "Nova Blast", Iceman could still regenarate his body.He has entered a steam in somewhere, and came out almost an instant later at a diffrent place. So, if Human torch did that "Nova Blast" Iceman could go to another part of the world,come back and beat a weak Torch. i think Iceman is smart enough to do that.

[Kmack]

Johnny

[Odin's Lapdog]

i like the way people are saying johhny can get as hot as the sun,

yeah, like bobby is every going to let that happen....

:o

in a no hold's barred match, johnny is gone before he knows what's going on.

Robert practically can control remove kinetic energy of molecules, no kinetic energy, no friction, no friction, no heat, no heat no fight no contest....


besides, i'v posted this opinion in another thread already and i'm sure many others similar to this have been done in the past.

[Brainiac 8]

i like the way people are saying johhny can get as hot as the sun,

yeah, like bobby is every going to let that happen....

:o

in a no hold's barred match, johnny is gone before he knows what's going on.

Robert practically can control remove kinetic energy of molecules, no kinetic energy, no friction, no friction, no heat, no heat no fight no contest....


besides, i'v posted this opinion in another thread already and i'm sure many others similar to this have been done in the past.

Great logic, Odin.

With that argument I agree with you, chances are bobby would take Johnny out before he could get that hot. Plus the fact that bobby could freeze the blood in people veins, effectively killing them.

If you pitted them together in a match to the death, like you said, With said argument, I think bobby would also win. :up:

[Ratcrawler]

Johnny is gone before he knows what's going on? What part of "The Torch has the ability to fly at speeds approaching the speed of sound" did you miss? Not only does Johnny have experience and better knowledge of his powers over Bobby, he too manipulates molecular energy (his own at least) to counter Iceman's attempts. Plus, he's not re-written nearly as often to seem invincible so that steam crap will probably go the way of Angel's energy wings or Magneto's Magnetic Glare thing.

[Odin's Lapdog]

dude, johnny doens't even stand a chance....


ice man has full control of his body on a molecular level, just because johnny evaporates him in a bout doesn't mean he's dead, just means he's turned to water vapour, and will revive himself at another point.

Now please explain to me how Johnny can beat someone like that via flames cause changing the molecular makeup of someone doesn't costitute a victory?

you speak of flying but you forget that johnny has to be on fire for that to happen. Again how is this going to happen if bobby forbids it from occuring. Johnny has to use up far more energy to stay ignite than bobby has to from stopping him. At the end of the day bobby has more in the bank and spends relatively less of it doing what he has to in order to make sure johnny brings nothing to the table (and even if he did, it would be useless)


I don't feel there is anything johnny can do to kill bobby, while there is plenty bobby can do to make johnny redundant in battle or perhaps kill him if he so desires.


in any given situation johnny needs oxygen fuel and heat, he certainly isn't in control in the oxygen around him, if bobby was to freeze this and turn it all into liquid form, not only with bobby be unable to breathe but to also ignite. There is so much going against johnny here, its just unfait to think about it.

johnny
goes
down
hard.

[9livesKitty]

since i'm kinda in love with johnny, i guess my vote is biased, but bobby is a truly formidable opponent and i'm confident it would be a very close fight: its possible for either man to win depending on how level headed they stay during the fight
-kittycat :p

[cookiva]

Wait....johnny needs oxygen to fight, if you think about it. Icemans powers are to manipulate the water in the air to form into ice...If he makes all of the water in the air hover around Johnnys body, he couldnt form into fire...

[Cyclops]

What you guys are forgetting is that while Iceman might someday maybe be that powerful... his own ineptitude as a person prevents him from reaching that potential. Johnny doesn't have that problem.

[OutcryX]

hmmm...I'm thinking that the results of this will turn out to be a big smoky cloud over a puddle of water

[CYBER-ME]

Sorry Drake, but Johnny Storm would win.

[ShadowBoxing]

Both have unknown and possibly limitless potential with their powers. However Johnny Storm (:eek:) has more discipline and confidence than Drake in regards to his powers. Storm takes it

[nimrod]

Both can defeat the other depending on setting, circumstance.
But all-out and in most cases, The Torch would win.

[Star]

Right now= Johnny

If Iceman completely explored his powers then him. but since he hasnt done that then..yeah.

[Oakley]

Johnny Storm has confidence, and the current Iceman is a wuss.

[Midnight Ice]

Iceman could freeze the Torch's brian with a thought. :xmen:

[Cyclops]

And then the Torch would get really mad and melt frosty with a vengeance for freezing his buddy Brian.

[undisclosed]

iceman because i did eeny meeny miny mo, and iceman got it.

[Weapon]

i like the way people are saying johhny can get as hot as the sun,

yeah, like bobby is every going to let that happen....

:o

in a no hold's barred match, johnny is gone before he knows what's going on.

Robert practically can control remove kinetic energy of molecules, no kinetic energy, no friction, no friction, no heat, no heat no fight no contest....


besides, i'v posted this opinion in another thread already and i'm sure many others similar to this have been done in the past.


Officially one of the biggest geeks Ive ever seen

[Phoenix342]

Officially one of the biggest geeks Ive ever seen

Whats the matter jealous you didnt think of it first?
just cause your lil brain is to small to think of anything besides
"fire melts ice" dont being dissing other ppl who think of cool stuff loser

[Chamber_UK]

Torch is hot as Sun, Iceman can't beat him.

Yes but Bobby can go absolute kelvin, nothing colder then that.

However my response would be a tie, when u look at the physics of their power the are polar oppossities that concel each other out, resulting in a stalemate.

[Weapon]

Whats the matter jealous you didnt think of it first?
just cause your lil brain is to small to think of anything besides
"fire melts ice" dont being dissing other ppl who think of cool stuff loser

LMAO

only cool if your a geek too. You're officially the biggest ass kiss Ive seen on these boards

[Phoenix342]

Yeah actually i do consider myself a geek so i really dont care if you call me that...and as far ass being a kiss ass you got it wrong i just cant stand when losers jump on the internet and diss ppl because it makes them feel somehow better since in real life they are outcast and got beat up when they were little...and if you think this board is so full of geeks then why do come here?

[Weapon]

Yeah actually i do consider myself a geek so i really dont care if you call me that...and as far ass being a kiss ass you got it wrong i just cant stand when losers jump on the internet and diss ppl because it makes them feel somehow better since in real life they are outcast and got beat up when they were little...and if you think this board is so full of geeks then why do come here?

I didnt say it was full of geeks - ass kiss. N It dont make me fell better telling the truth about people on here, I dont need to feel better about anything - so nice comeback bum. Anyway even mentioning the topic it's apparent you were shoved in lockers in school and had your ass kicked, no one else. Stop being a geek and meet some real people you outcast. Snooguns

-CLDE-

[Nightwolf]

Weapon, I dont know what your problem is but coming on a comic book forum and calling people geeks is a bit redundant isnt it. What have you actually contributed to this thread except for calling people names?

[Phoenix342]

Stop being a geek and meet some real people you outcast. Snooguns

-CLDE-
LOL I already told you i consider myself a geek so call me that all you want but as far as you telling me to meet real ppl arnt you doing exactly opposite of what your telling me to do, You tell me to meet real ppl yet you too are also on the board, hmm. and also im on here to post not make my self seem like a toughguy calling people "geeks" OH NO!!!! so why dont u cut the tough guy bullcrap and chill out and maybe actually contribute to the board not just run around lookin like some 10 year old wanna be tough guy and if thats to hard for you why dont you go suck a bottle of warm milk fall alseep and come back in about 9-10 years when your over the middle school though guy act

[Phoenix342]

oh sorry and one more thing sorry about the post getting off topic guys but i agree with what someone said earlier too about their powers canceling each other out but if that didnt happen, Iceman all the way!

[La The Darkman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if Johhny Storm goes "supernova" isn't he unable to use his powers for HOURS afterwards?

[Weapon]

LOL I already told you i consider myself a geek so call me that all you want but as far as you telling me to meet real ppl arnt you doing exactly opposite of what your telling me to do, You tell me to meet real ppl yet you too are also on the board, hmm. and also im on here to post not make my self seem like a toughguy calling people "geeks" OH NO!!!! so why dont u cut the tough guy bullcrap and chill out and maybe actually contribute to the board not just run around lookin like some 10 year old wanna be tough guy and if thats to hard for you why dont you go suck a bottle of warm milk fall alseep and come back in about 9-10 years when your over the middle school though guy act

So who's name calling? Anyone who uses comments like you is bitter about how their life has turned out, and I actually do get out and have a real life so its ok for me to ocasionally post on message boards unlike you bum. And what you talkin bout suckin for ????? A subconcious wish of yours???
Im not trying to be tough btw - Its just so laughable when people try to work out battles for fake comic book charecters with actual science and logic - its a ****in comic - dont have an orgasm.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Officially one of the biggest geeks Ive ever seen
i don't see what relevance this has to the conversation at hand...

:o


if you have any relevant input, please feel free to express it instead of taking the conversation off at a tangent.

danke

;)

[Odin's Lapdog]

alright, for those of you who are voting for johnny, please tell me how the converstion of a state of matter (i.e. solid to liquid or even gas form) constitutes a victory...

melting iceman doesn't mean he's dead, or even defeated, it just means he is no longer in solid form.

What can Johnny do to a vapour, you can't hit it, or constrain it, or knock it unconcious.

i don't get why the whole, 'fire may melt ice' argument is feasible when we know robert has full molecular control of his self.

could someone take me through a johnny storm victory in a realistic situation of both parties going full out at their peaks.

[Weapon]

Super hot sun destroys snow man ....... snow man floats away into the atmosphere

[Odin's Lapdog]

how does heat destroy ice? It just changes it into another form of state, one bobby has full control over.

Hence bobby now is in a less vulnerable state to attack.

how does this constitute a victory?


consider the vice versa, just because johnny isn't able to flame on doesn't automatically make bobby the victor, it's what bobby can do in johnny's vulnerable state that determines this. Mr storm has no such trump card in his artillary.


So again, i reiterate, how does Johnny beat Bobby?

[Weapon]

if someone cant fight back they're out

[Phoenix342]

yeah but all bobby has to do is reform his molecules back to solid and he's back in the fight and eventually johnny would wear out or iceman would figure out a way to defeat him

[Weapon]

So youre arguement is 'he'd figure out a way to beat him' ?? damm fanboy argument

[Phoenix342]

Yeah well at least im not just saying "fire melts ice", think out side of the box man there are alot of different ways that bobby could beat torch he could turn into vapor, go inside the torch and freeze his lngs or something, its just stupid keep thinking "fire melts" ice is the most obvious solution when theres alot of other factors to be considered

[Weapon]

Dam Im finished here I aint got any time to debate the outcome of fictional charecter battlse anymore- real lifes a calling

[cookiva]

Yeah well at least im not just saying "fire melts ice", think out side of the box man there are alot of different ways that bobby could beat torch he could turn into vapor, go inside the torch and freeze his lngs or something, its just stupid keep thinking "fire melts" ice is the most obvious solution when theres alot of other factors to be considered


Exactamundo!

[Iceman]

Iceman with Emma Frost as backup and you can't lose - he's got range
Torch is a hothead - Iceman will stay cool

btw Torch ain't as hot as the *****ng sun whatever any stupid comic says - if he was there would be no Marvel or DC universe

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I just don't see how Iceman can win this a majority of the time. If this is a no holds bare all out battle then Johnny Wins. The guy can reach well above the temp of the sun 1,000,000 freaking F. That's just ridiculous, Iceman stands no chance if Johnny doesn't care if he kills him.

On the other hand I doubt Johnny would kill to win, where as Bobby could push hard and still not kill Johnny. If this fight isn't all out and they take into consideration not only each others lives but surely others that are in the area bobby takes this.

[Galadhlight]

It's amazing how geeks getting together can argue about the slightest thing. The first blow would be the one to win. It just depends on who gets it off first. Second of all the closest thing that would probablt happen in a battle like that is a big puddle of water.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

It's amazing how geeks getting together can argue about the slightest thing. The first blow would be the one to win. It just depends on who gets it off first. Second of all the closest thing that would probablt happen in a battle like that is a big puddle of water.

I resent that! I'm a nerd damn it!

[Odin's Lapdog]

if someone cant fight back they're out
what makes you think he can't fight when in vapour form?

so if johnny went nova, melted drake, then drake reformed and johnny was exhausted, wouldn't johnny be out because he couldn't fight?


I don't see your argument here

[Odin's Lapdog]

I just don't see how Iceman can win this a majority of the time. If this is a no holds bare all out battle then Johnny Wins. The guy can reach well above the temp of the sun 1,000,000 freaking F. That's just ridiculous, Iceman stands no chance if Johnny doesn't care if he kills him.

On the other hand I doubt Johnny would kill to win, where as Bobby could push hard and still not kill Johnny. If this fight isn't all out and they take into consideration not only each others lives but surely others that are in the area bobby takes this.Firstly, how would Johnny be able to kill Iceman, melting him or turning him into vapour isn't killing him. tell me exactly how Fire 'KILLS' ice, water or even vapour, please enlighten me cause i've never heard anything along those lines before.

what does it matter what temp johnny can go to, once over the boiling temperature of water, it doesn't matter how much hotter he goes, drake still remains a vapour so maxing temp is irrelevant here, not to mention the fact that Bobby would never allow such a feat to be done, not allowing johnny to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to combust and set himself alight anywho.

no hold's barred matches like these need not necessarily end in death, but sufficient damage can be caused to end a confrontation, or infact if one character is rendered defenceless or unable to provide a viable means of attack, a victory can be gained by the other.

[Odin's Lapdog]

I'm sorry but i've stated my argument, if any Johnny storm defenders have any other argument over the non relevant 'fire melts ice' one, i'll make a decent stance but i seem to be going round in circles here pointing out the fact it doesn't matter.

:o

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Firstly, how would Johnny be able to kill Iceman, melting him or turning him into vapour isn't killing him. tell me exactly how Fire 'KILLS' ice, water or even vapour, please enlighten me cause i've never heard anything along those lines before.

what does it matter what temp johnny can go to, once over the boiling temperature of water, it doesn't matter how much hotter he goes, drake still remains a vapour so maxing temp is irrelevant here, not to mention the fact that Bobby would never allow such a feat to be done, not allowing johnny to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to combust and set himself alight anywho.

no hold's barred matches like these need not necessarily end in death, but sufficient damage can be caused to end a confrontation, or infact if one character is rendered defenceless or unable to provide a viable means of attack, a victory can be gained by the other.

So Bobby is purely made up of water/ice? His entire physical structe is water/ice?

[Odin's Lapdog]

I believe when he is in ice form, yes, plus he can use surrounding water molecules in the atmosphere to help regenerate parts of his body if he is injured.

at least that's what i think.

[Iceman]

If human torch is really as hot as the sun surely he is one of the most powerful things ever - there's not that many who can withstand that kind of heat.

The truth is he's not as hot as the sun

Fire melts ice
Ice becomes water
Water puts out fire

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I believe when he is in ice form, yes, plus he can use surrounding water molecules in the atmosphere to help regenerate parts of his body if he is injured.

at least that's what i think.

Now you are basing your information off of what you think, not fact. I am not saying you are wrong but it's clearly stated that Johnny can reach 1,000,000 degrees F.

If you show me facts proving Bobby is clearly made up of Water/Ice and that he can heal himself then I'm okay with what you said.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

If human torch is really as hot as the sun surely he is one of the most powerful things ever - there's not that many who can withstand that kind of heat.

The truth is he's not as hot as the sun

Fire melts ice
Ice becomes water
Water puts out fire

Why can't he be? Because you say so? He isn't ALWAYS as hot as the sun but CAN reach 9,000 degrees F and much much hotter.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Now you are basing your information off of what you think, not fact. I am not saying you are wrong but it's clearly stated that Johnny can reach 1,000,000 degrees F.

If you show me facts proving Bobby is clearly made up of Water/Ice and that he can heal himself then I'm okay with what you said.
Dude, the truth is indeed hard to swallow, but it's true, Bobby can regenerate himself from ambient ice in the atmosphere, take a look at what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(comics)) says


Over the years, his mutant physiology has gone through radical changes. First, he was able to fashion an armor of densely packed snow around his human form when lowering his temperature; later, this became armor of solid ice. Eventually, he was actually able to transform his body into organic ice in which his strength and endurance were augmented to enhanced levels, but when he turned his body back to normal, he would be an ordinary human.

For a time, Iceman could no longer revert to a human form. He was constantly in a translucent organic ice-form. Iceman is also able to reconstitute his ice-form if any part of it is damaged or even if it is completely shattered, without permanent harm to himself. He is able to temporarily add the mass of a body of water to his own to increase his mass, size and physical power. His strength and durability in his ice-form are enhanced beyond normal human levels. He can survive not only as sentient ice but as sentient water and vapor. He has the capacity to manipulate all forms of moisture. He has all of the abilities to generate projectiles, slides and shields that he always has had but they have been augmented greatly. He can also deposit his bodily mass into a river or stream and reconstitute his entire mass a great distance away in a matter of minutes.



in his ice form, he's no longer surrounded by ice but is completely made up of ice.


now the second sentence shows he can survive as a vapour, and he will start boiling at 100 degrees celcius. once completely in a vapour stage, it doesn't matter how much hotter johnny gets, iceman is still a vapour, the added still means its a vapour.

the johnny storm argument is like saying if megatron turns optimus prime into a truck, he wins a fight against them. when all optimus prime has to do is turn back and continue the bout, the argument holds no water

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Dude, the truth is indeed hard to swallow, but it's true, Bobby can regenerate himself from ambient ice in the atmosphere, take a look at what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(comics)) says




in his ice form, he's no longer surrounded by ice but is completely made up of ice.


now the second sentence shows he can survive as a vapour, and he will start boiling at 100 degrees celcius. once completely in a vapour stage, it doesn't matter how much hotter johnny gets, iceman is still a vapour, the added still means its a vapour.

the johnny storm argument is like saying if megatron turns optimus prime into a truck, he wins a fight against them. when all optimus prime has to do is turn back and continue the bout, the argument holds no water

No the truth is not hard to swallow. DId you read what I said? I said if you show me I will accept what you stated. You did, so I do?

Where's the problem?

[thor87]

well i think because johnny is a hothead he would make an ignorant move, and get incapsulated in ice thus nullifying his powers. I dont think johny stands much of a chance if you think about this practically. The first move johhny makes isnt going to be going supernova, but the first move bobby makes will probably be to freeze him, when that happens the fight is over.

[Cyclops]

I think, Odin, what you're ignoring entirely is Bobby himself. You've got the potential range of his powers down pat, but just since when does he EVER explore the full range of his powers? Keep in mind that the most extensive his power has ever gotten was when someone else was using.

Iceman would win this fight if Bobby Drake wasn't in the way. But since he is, he stands no chance against Johnny Storm, who has experimented with his powers to a level that Bobby has never even come close to attempting.

An expert with a pistol could kill a novice with a rocket launcher any day of the week. And despite Bobby's years in the heroing business, he remains said novice, while Johnny's the expert. Bobby could be so much better, but he simply refuses to go to that length, and thus falls way short of the mark in this battle against the Human Torch.

[Odin's Lapdog]

No the truth is not hard to swallow. DId you read what I said? I said if you show me I will accept what you stated. You did, so I do?

Where's the problem?
there is no problem

:confused:

it wasn't said in malice....

:o

[Odin's Lapdog]

I think, Odin, what you're ignoring entirely is Bobby himself. You've got the potential range of his powers down pat, but just since when does he EVER explore the full range of his powers? Keep in mind that the most extensive his power has ever gotten was when someone else was using.

Iceman would win this fight if Bobby Drake wasn't in the way. But since he is, he stands no chance against Johnny Storm, who has experimented with his powers to a level that Bobby has never even come close to attempting.

An expert with a pistol could kill a novice with a rocket launcher any day of the week. And despite Bobby's years in the heroing business, he remains said novice, while Johnny's the expert. Bobby could be so much better, but he simply refuses to go to that length, and thus falls way short of the mark in this battle against the Human Torch.

I'm only really basing my point of view against those who were just thinking that purely because fire has the ability to change the state of mater of ice into vapour, it doesn't automatically make it a victory.

sure there are tatical advantages that need to be brought to the table, however i assume whenever putting together a 'VS' thread, you take both characters at their potential best when pitting them against one another, mentally, physically, the works.

Saying this, i still don't see what form of attack johnny could have to take johnny out. If you want to throw me a potential scenario, i'm all ears, or at least a range of Johnny's abilities, because except for the basics, i don't know what skills he brings to the table.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I'm only really basing my point of view against those who were just thinking that purely because fire has the ability to change the state of mater of ice into vapour, it doesn't automatically make it a victory.

sure there are tatical advantages that need to be brought to the table, however i assume whenever putting together a 'VS' thread, you take both characters at their potential best when pitting them against one another, mentally, physically, the works.

Saying this, i still don't see what form of attack johnny could have to take johnny out. If you want to throw me a potential scenario, i'm all ears, or at least a range of Johnny's abilities, because except for the basics, i don't know what skills he brings to the table.

I don't see how Johnny could take Johnny out either, unless he gave up?

[Odin's Lapdog]

It's just a typo, you know what i meant...

:o

[ProfeZZor X]

You kiddies are driving me CRAZY with all these speculations on what Iceman's powers are and what he's capable of accomplishing. Well, to start off, he has been classed as an OMEGA mutant. Which basically means that he has the ability to do some serious damage on a global scale and wipe out life as we know it. He's known to be one of the most powerful mutants on the planet next to Dark Phoenix and a few others. Even further proof is a quote from the recent book of "The 198", where it goes on to say that he may quite possibly "THE" most dangerous mutant in existance. Or something to that extent. And for those that don't understand his capabilities (in the comic world), I will give you a run down of what he is actually capable of doing:

THE HERO IN HIM
1) Convert part of, or his entire body into ice (including internal organs)
2) Freeze all forms of moisture, including bodily fluids, or oils
3) Add mass to his form for defensive purposes
4) Detect thermal signals in any object, or being (like infra red vision)
5) Evaporate & teleport himself through any body of water faster than
the speed of sound
6) Transport himself and others using a molecular inversion process
(liquifying himself and others and travel as a mist cloud)
7) Create animated clones of himself by rapidly freezing and unfreezing
ice
8) Cryogenically freeze a person to slow down any life threatening illness
9) Disperse his body into any cold environment and live as an essence
(live without a body indefinitely)
10) Can bring moisture to the driest environment on the planet.

THE EVIL IN HIM
1) Can freeze every molecule of water in your body and shatter you
2) Can extract every molecule of water from your body
3) Can freeze the blood of telepaths to prevent mental attacks
4) Can reform himself after being shattered into many pieces
(even survive long periods of time as just a head of ice)
5) Can create extra limbs or restructure his body out of ice
6) Can freeze areas the size of Tokyo with ease
7) Can create all forms of wet or freezing storms
8) Can create ice tidal waves or avalanches
9) Can absorb large bodies of water to become an immense giant
10) Can create any blunt object or weapon out of ice
11) Can lower the temperature in any environment within seconds

I'm sure there are over a dozen more abilities that I forgot, but those are some of his powers that come to mind. Iceman has undergone many transformations, but one thing that has kept him from achieving even greater feats, is his light-heartedness, and lack of desire to push himself further. Many allies and villains have hinted at the unlimited posibilities he's capable of, but at this time in his life, he is comfortable with the way he is. And as much as I hate to admit it, I think the Human Torch might win. But I only say that based on his experience level, and willingness to push himself. Then again, Bobby has done some extrordinary feats as well when forced into a cornered situation. And he usually comes out on top...

If you want to learn more about him or other X-Men characters, go to www.uncannyxmen.net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/) and look under the "Cerebro files" on the left hand side.

[ProfeZZor X]

I'm sorry but i've stated my argument, if any Johnny storm defenders have any other argument over the non relevant 'fire melts ice' one, i'll make a decent stance but i seem to be going round in circles here pointing out the fact it doesn't matter.

:o

You seem to be missing the point buddy. Regardless if "fire melts ice", ice can also extinguish fire. Johnny cant exist as fire itself without have a fuel source, however Iceman can exist as water mist, hot or cold. And if you're talking about physical attacks, both can land punches upon each other. Even if Johnny was radiating at a high temperature I'm sure Iceman's fist wouldn't just evaporate as he's throwing it. Remember, he's also radiating cold too, and also regenerating the mosture he's using.

Lets say they were both contained in a stadium going at it. And Iceman does his evaporation trick and freezes the entire stadium to lower the temperature on Torch. Then he merges with the iced stadium thinking Torch can't get to him, only he has a stradegy. Torch naturally tries to flush him out and goes supernova. However, he didn't take into account that the ice damage changed the molecules & integrity of the structure and soon the Torch has hundreds of tons of water, molten steel and rubble crashing down on him. In the mean time, Iceman is in an entirely different place (in vapor form) laughing at him....

[Odin's Lapdog]

I have no idea what you are on about.

You put down all drake's potential parts, then vote go for johnny but again don't say how this victory would come up?

anywho with both contestants having abilities that will work from a distance, what good would it do being up close and personal and trading blows?, strategically it just doesn't seem likely for either side to want to make that kinda decision especially being aware of what the other person is capable of performing.

and a supernova can quite well have the potential to vapourise the structures of a stadium, or johnny is quite capable of melting any imposing threat coming his way so not sure if that would be likely. Also placing the bout in a place where it limits the room and agility and oxygen supply that johnny has at stake wouldn't be wise. The torch would burn his way through the ceiling of the structure and find his way out to open ground to continue the bout and wouldn't go for means of attack you've just described.


I don't know why i'm putting up better arguments for potential Storm battle strategies and plans that people that voted for him.

:confused:

Even if Drake was being entirely defensive and not attacking I would like to know how johnny would come about beating him, just tell me, walk me through it because no one has done that yet and that's all i'm really interested in.

[Nightwing]

Human Torch.

[ProfeZZor X]

You put down all drake's potential parts, then vote go for johnny but again don't say how this victory would come up?

Even if Drake was being entirely defensive and not attacking I would like to know how johnny would come about beating him, just tell me, walk me through it because no one has done that yet and that's all i'm really interested in.

Actually, at the end of that statement I said that Iceman would more than likely come out on top, as he always does when backed into a corner. But considering the Torch's experience level and willingness to be more creative with his abilities, he'd best Bobby in that category. That's the only way I see Torch beating the "Popsicle".

I also have to correct you on a few things you mentioned about Drake: He pulls the ambient moisture of the air, not ice. He can also cover many miles in any body of water in seconds, not minutes (Uncanny #314). Wikipedia is also a bit outdated and incorrect on quite a few things on him too. www.Uncannyxmen.net (http://www.Uncannyxmen.net) is far more acurate.

I will admit though that you got me on that whole stadium bout. I didn't condsider the fact that the ice would turn into vapour once Johnny went supernova. However, now that I think about it, Johnny usually exhausts his powers immediately after he goes supernova, and reverts back to his human form. During this time, Iceman could easily take advantage of this situation, regardless of if he was in mist, liquid, or ice form.

So I guess you and I were on the same page after all.

:marv:

[Cyclops]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.

Well said :up:

[ProfeZZor X]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

I am probably one of the biggest experts when it comes to Robert Louis Drake, aka: Iceman, aka: Drake Roberts, aka: Rampage II, aka: Mr. Frost, aka: Popsicle, aka: Freeze Face.... and according to the current universe, Iceman has possessed 98% of those powers I mentioned in my previously post.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are..

It's unfortunate that Bobby has gone through some really crappy writers over the past couple of years, but I managed to stick it out and remember some of the good issues he's had. One of the first issues that got me re-interested in this character was Uncanny #302, "Colossus Unleashed" in which he had shown a great deal of power control years before your so called "Emma" situation. Then there was the onslaught issues where he survived and functioned with his chest being blown out. Then there was X-Men Forever, in which he realized that he could be incinerated and survive in a vapour form, could travel through the air as vapour in seconds, could freeze a structure 50 times the size of the space shuttle, and travel through water at the speed of sound.

Even long before that, he wore a dampener belt to reduce the amount of power he had, he walked up to the Sentinel leader Bastion's doorstep and single-handedly defeated him using an animated ice clone, and could have killed one of the most powerful mutants in exsistance: David Haller aka: Legion, by shattering him after freezing every water molecule of water in his body. He could also grow to gigantic proportions using water. None of that was shown to him by Emma... So open your mind and realize that he's capable of far more feats than Johnny.

And all of these things happened in the continuity of THIS UNIVERSE, not an alternate one.


As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him...

Again, you're basing Iceman's powers from the one issue he had with Emma Frost. Just because he's written as immature doesn't mean that he's not creative with his powers. He's just not as disceplined and as driven as Johnny these days. If you can find a copy of X-Men #1, the very first issue, you'll read that he was the most powerful and cunning with his powers than any of the X-Men.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. Johnny's melted bullets midair. Bobby tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration.

Like I said, Iceman can travel at the speed of sound in water OR vapour form. He can also either STOP, or ABSORB bullets and survive. It would also be stupid to think that Bobby could even pull moisture out of the Torch to begin with, so why bother come up with that scenario. If anything, he'd use some sort of extinguishing tactics to take him down. Remember, this is a survival match, and I'm pretty sure he'd be a hell of a lot more creative with his powers if his life depended on it...

[Cyclops]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they? :confused:

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

Your entire argument for Bobby winning seems to hinge on "If Johnny was trying to kill him, Bobby's survival instincts would kick in and he'd go ape**** nuts on him." But there's no reason for Bobby's survival instincts to go in because Johnny Storm is not a murderer.

He's capable of alot, yeah, but really... is he going to use these capabilities? Johnny could go supernova and KO Bobby with one hit. And he'd do it faster than Bobby could react. But I sincerely doubt that Johnny would go that far. Just like I sincerely doubt that Bobby would ever go as far as trying to kill Johnny Storm like you're suggesting he would.

Remember, the potential scope of one's powers is not necessarily what is going to be used in a fight. Remember - powerwise, most of Captain America's foes should have spanked him silly - yet every time, he comes out on top.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

[ProfeZZor X]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they? :confused:

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

I was pointing out far better self-recognizing abilities from past issues that you assumed Emma had shown him, which seemed to be the basis of your initial arguement. The big difference here which makes Iceman the more powerful is that Bobby can survive WITHOUT a physical body, whereas Johnny cannot. Johnny needs a plasma form, whereas Iceman only needs any remote form of moisture to survive. That in itself is a huge difference.

And I never said that I thought this was a death match between the two.

[Cyclops]

Then where did "Remember, this is a survival match" come from?

[Odin's Lapdog]

How can he take the advantage when he himself has never done these kind of things? You don't pit battles at their potential bests, but even if you did, Johnny would still win, as his potential best was when he was a herald of Galactus.

You take them as they are now. Right - now. Not at the "maybe if Bobby was able to do all the crazy things Emma Frost did with his powers that he never figured out how to do" level, but as they are. Because that way, let's face it - you're just trying to tip the scales in Bobby's favor because you know that in the here and now, Bobby would lose bad.

As they are, Johnny can melt steel, fly at speeds that nearly break the sound barrier, and knock nearly anybody for a loop in energy-based combat. Bobby does not have nearly the experience using his own powers as other people do, so how can you factor him in at doing things with ease, mind you, that he has never himself done before? This is what confuses me about those who think Iceman wins easily. How can you have him doing things he only did when Emma Frost was controlling his mind? He can't do those kinds of things. His body can, but not him.

Johnny overwhelms Bobby with sheer speed and power. As was demonstrated when the X-Men went to investigate Ranch X or whatever it was called, Bobby is not impervious to flames even in ice form, so Johnny can hurt him alot. Meanwhile, Iceman's repertoire of attacks, mainly blasting at him with ice in either beam form or solid form, isn't doing much to help him, as Johnny's melted bullets midair. Icicles pose no threat. So Bobby switches tactics. Tries to sap some moisture out of the air, dry up the Torch and drop him that way. Problem is, this takes concentration. A whole lot more concentration than it takes Johnny to not be a stationary target and smack the popsicle in the face with a well-tossed fireball, taking him down and out for the count. We're not going for a kill, we're going for a knockout, and Johnny KOs Iceman more often than not.
you see a post more along the lines as this one stated here was one that i was looking for and i thank you for taking the time to post it.

HOwever i still have reservations about a victory.

Granted iceman can be hurt by flames, however does he have the ability at this instance to draw water molecules from the surrounding area to regenerate or survive as other forms of states of matter?

i understand that drake doesn't have the means and experience or perhaps imagination to go on an all attack and johnny may be well capable of that. My concerns are that if ambient defence mechanisms are kicked in (knee jerk reactions) by Bobby, then what does johnny have as a means of taking victory.

any direct physical attack would have bobby regenerating and any heat based attack would just have bobby becoming far harder to detect and move around.

or if you feel that such a bout wouldn't have bobby reverting to such desparate measures, bring that up as well?

I'm only looking for good reasoning here, i'm not looking to blindly defend or attack. As seen in another post earlier, i've defended johnny as well so i'm not character bias here.

[ProfeZZor X]

Granted iceman can be hurt by flames, however does he have the ability at this instance to draw water molecules from the surrounding area to regenerate or survive as other forms of states of matter?.

Why wouldn't he be able to collect moisture from the air now? He's been doing it for years. Just because his powers recently kicked back in doesn't mean that he's forgotten how to do it.

Remember when they went to China to rescue Xorn a few issues back, and they went up against the Chinese army? They shot him multiple times in the back, and he didn't shatter. He also didn't scream out in agonizing pain either, he just just used the humid environment to fill in his holes, and told Havok not to sweat it. Remember that? He also did some other amazing feats in that issue too (Fastball special with (the very heavy)Juggernaut, and he also grew 50 feet tall using water from the same river he was being drowned in by the Collective Man.

The only issue where he was in vapour form was in the X-Men Forever story arc. Since then, no writer has gone on to use the those abilities in other combat situations.... And by the way, Emma didn't teach him how to do any of those things.

[Cyclops]

No, Professor Ship did or something. ;)

[ProfeZZor X]

No, Professor Ship did or something. ;)

:spidey:... I sense a bad joke.

All joking aside though, I think Iceman has had the short end of the stick when it comes to good character development writing. Compared to character changing stories of all of the original 5 X-men characters, his pales incomparison.... Even the late Marvel Girl gets more attention than he does now. Had his secondary mutation be for him to evaporate into a mist form, or become bigger, thicker and "cragglier" like the thing (with chunks of iceberg-like ice growing out like now), it could have opened up tons of story arcs.

[ProfeZZor X]

I wonder if both characters will be working together or against each other during the Civil War story arc.

[javon]

Is this a new thread because it sure wasn't here 45 minutes ago.

[Cyclops]

Yeah. You can tell just how new it is judging by the dates of each post.

[ProfeZZor X]

Is this a new thread because it sure wasn't here 45 minutes ago.

No, I was archiving through my old subscriptions and this was my very first posting on this website. And if you scroll back through the pages, you'll see that I was even more tenacious with defending Iceman than I was with you, HandOfFate, and Sebita. But also, I was reading an article saying that the X-Men will be involved with the Civil War story, as with the Fantastic Four. And the page that I saw had Johnny Storm in a hospital bed, suffering from injuries from an angry mob. So the topic of this thread made me wonder if Iceman and Torch will go up against each other. That would be a great show down... :eek: :up:

[ProfeZZor X]

Yeah. You can tell just how new it is judging by the dates of each post.

Wow, I haven't seen you since I left this post. Hope all is well.

[javon]

No, I was archiving through my old subscriptions and this was my very first posting on this website. And if you scroll back through the pages, you'll see that I was even more tenacious with defending Iceman than I was with you, HandOfFate, and Sebita.
I never argued with you. I just sat back and looked at the information that I didn't know about her. And BELEIVE me, your not the only one that had to fight for your character.

[ProfeZZor X]

I never argued with you. I just sat back and looked at the information that I didn't know about her. And BELEIVE me, your not the only one that had to fight for your character.

Now what character would that be.......Hmmm?...j/k

[javon]

Lol.

[stormcloud03]

would you look at that it's a tie!

[CHObiWan]

I say the Torch. But this is an X-Men board so I think Bobbys gonna win anyway.

[ProfeZZor X]

I say the Torch. But this is an X-Men board so I think Bobbys gonna win anyway.

Pretty much bro....And would Torch be considered omega classwith hiscurrent power level?... Even IF he wasn't a mutant...

[Dynasty]

2 words...

Super Nova

[Dynasty]

just to make it a bit more well known, here you all go.

http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_157.htm

[Midnight Ice]

just to make it a bit more well known, here you all go.

http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_157.htm
And since Iceman just proved he can turn to steam and back into human form (as he did in the last issue of X-Men) I see no way the torch would end up winning. It would probably have to come down to a fist fight. I don't know who would win that.:xmen:

[Fading]

Who said this was a survival match? Neither Johnny nor Bobby have any reason to kill the other, so why would they? :confused:

And before you say "They have no reason to fight each other either", superheroes fight each other all the time. But they don't KILL each other. Neither Bobby nor Johnny are killers, so I don't see any reason why life or death would be brought into it.

Your entire argument for Bobby winning seems to hinge on "If Johnny was trying to kill him, Bobby's survival instincts would kick in and he'd go ape**** nuts on him." But there's no reason for Bobby's survival instincts to go in because Johnny Storm is not a murderer.

He's capable of alot, yeah, but really... is he going to use these capabilities? Johnny could go supernova and KO Bobby with one hit. And he'd do it faster than Bobby could react. But I sincerely doubt that Johnny would go that far. Just like I sincerely doubt that Bobby would ever go as far as trying to kill Johnny Storm like you're suggesting he would.

Remember, the potential scope of one's powers is not necessarily what is going to be used in a fight. Remember - powerwise, most of Captain America's foes should have spanked him silly - yet every time, he comes out on top.

While both Johnny and Bobby are quite powerful in their own rights, Johnny's got the edge skillwise to put him over the top.

Thing that confuses me is you have Cyclops as an avatar, then seem to think Iceman only gained his powers when Frost took over his body. He displayed tons of powers before Emma took his body over. What's more you say that Bobby can't go to vapor, then say well he can but will never pull it off, then say that vs. fights aren't about someone using their full potential or something like that, then claim Torch will win in a second with Nova his ultimate move...contradictions galore...no offense.

Why would Bobby not be allowed to use his better techniques in your opinion, but Torch be able to use his best right off the bat. Also I don't see Iceman immediately making Torch a popcycle, more likely Torch is already lit up in the air when him and Bobby meet up, not sure why Torch would be in human form standing in front of Iceman for no reason.

I see the fight starting out as a test, both blast a few times, neithers stupid enough to waste all their energy at just seeing their opponent. They both blast eachother and cancel eachother out a few times, Bobby notices the heat more than Johnny, and Johnny gets over confident saying something like "Hot enough for ya" or something corny. They do a more powerful blast, and Iceman holds back the stream barely, as even tho it's just turning into vapor, Torch's heat is easily melting Iceman's blast. Torch tho probably knows little about Iceman's powers past he can generate Ice, Iceman on the other hand probably knows plenty about Johnny as Johnny is practically a celebrity in the MU and well known power wise. Iceman like said about probably wouldn't use all his powers or think to use them, just as :spidey: doesn't web ppl in the eyes and punch them out blind everytime. He realizes a straight up ice vs fire blast test isn't going to win it for him. Torch is getting impatient and...eh nm, can't think of a good end to the scenario.

Point is I vote Iceman. Like said above when backed in a corner he lets more power leak out. His power is more unbeatable than Johnny's. Johnny's fire destroys, but doesn't protect Johnny outside of melting projectiles, which is why Hulk's sonic clap put the Torch out in another issue. Iceman on the other hand when in vapor form is untouchable, and really he doesn't have to concentrate to do it. When in ice form he is ice, when that ice is melted he's vapor, no difference, and no more thought than him being in ice form, he's just became a less tangible form of water. In vapor form Torch can go supernova and still not destroy that vapor. Basically Torch can out power Iceman, but Torch can't fully defeat Iceman. Torch can hold the upper hand for awhile, but can't deliver the final blow becomes Iceman can become untouchable, meanwhile Torch's power leaks out like a siv. After being Supernova Johnny's done for, and in human form. Iceman on the other hand is reforming from vapor and still fully powered. ONLY way I see Torch winning is if Iceman goes stupid for some reason and reverts to human form mid fight and gets torched, past that as long as Iceman is frosty, Torch just can't win. It's like trying to destroy butter with a knife, sure it cuts it easy, but that butter still exists even in separate pieces, even if you melt it it just becomes liquid and vapor. Same here, Iceman can be a puddle from Torch's heat, or vapor in the air, but Iceman's still alive and far from down, Torch runs out of juice, and virtually unijured Iceman reforms and ko's him.

[ProfeZZor X]

Wow... This thread is a blast from my past. This is pretty much where I made my mark as a newbie in this forum.

And not to add fuel the fire even more over this debate, but Iceman has recently been charred by Northstar and Aurora in a firey blast... In human form. Apparently he has the ability to automatically turn into ice/snow/vapour when instantly incenerated, or in a dangerous situation. This recent situation only adds to the debate held during his time as just a living head during the "Draco" story arc. After that empaled arrow exploded his human torso, there was really never any resolve as to what or how it happened when he converted to ice. The same can be said during X-Men Forever when he was evaporated by the Sentinels.

Although, I find it advantageous of him to be able to create a clone of himself, or other animated ice creations to fool his opponents. The close of Zero Tolerance was a good example, when Bastion thought he had the upper hand, while pummelling a downed Iceman with punches. What he thought was Iceman, was actually a clone, and the real Iceman had turned into mist form, resolidified, and snuck up behind Bastion to land a sucker punch to the back of his head.... Who says the same thing can't be done with the Torch?

Oh yeah... Then there was that time when Iceman went Supernova too. I think it was Chris Claremonts and Jim Lee's last book together, when the X-Men were pitted in a fight against each other. Psylocke snuck up behind Iceman and stabbed him in the head with a psi-blade. As a result, it screwed up his neural patterns or something like that, and it sent out a shockwave of cold energy that froze everything within a certain radius into solid ice... which obviously included Psylocke and every person within that radius.

[Nature's Rising]

He's not god, and certainly no match to an Omega mutant who he is able to reconstitute his body every time. He can what? Control fire? Big deal. His opponent can control his own powers on molecular level, clearly he's outmatched in every way.

First, it takes a while to form that much temperature. Second, is that it is already his most powerful attack and it strains him on a very high level. Iceman would just laugh on his face. The energy he spent to form that nova will only take a snap for Bobby to remove all the moisture from his body, or freeze his blood, etc. If Johnny's supernova puts him in greater risk, then he is clearly outclassed because Bobby can actually put him out of his misery in a blink of an eye without resolving to his 'most' powerful attacks. There is no way Torch is going to win this thing. Unless Bobby is a wuss like right now. But then we're talking about Torch producing supernova, which is entirely out of his normal characterization so I assume both are in bloodlust mode. Having said that, Iceman's arsenal is far broader and more powerful than Torch's.
Iceman > Torch.

[Cyclops]

Thing that confuses me is you have Cyclops as an avatar, then seem to think Iceman only gained his powers when Frost took over his body. He displayed tons of powers before Emma took his body over. What's more you say that Bobby can't go to vapor, then say well he can but will never pull it off, then say that vs. fights aren't about someone using their full potential or something like that, then claim Torch will win in a second with Nova his ultimate move...contradictions galore...no offense.

Complete lack of reading comprehension galore... no offense. When Emma Frost took over his body, she used his powers to a level he never had done. THAT is what I said. I cannot be held accountable if you couldn't understand that.

Why would Bobby not be allowed to use his better techniques in your opinion, but Torch be able to use his best right off the bat. Also I don't see Iceman immediately making Torch a popcycle, more likely Torch is already lit up in the air when him and Bobby meet up, not sure why Torch would be in human form standing in front of Iceman for no reason.

I said nothing about Bobby at normal levels but Johnny at his best. I said both as they were at the time I wrote that post ages ago (good job on the timely criticism, by the way). And at that time, Johnny was confident, powerful, and wholly in control of his abilities. And at that time, Bobby was a whiny punk who had nothing to offer other than being a total bastard.

I see the fight starting out as a test, both blast a few times, neithers stupid enough to waste all their energy at just seeing their opponent. They both blast eachother and cancel eachother out a few times, Bobby notices the heat more than Johnny, and Johnny gets over confident saying something like "Hot enough for ya" or something corny. They do a more powerful blast, and Iceman holds back the stream barely, as even tho it's just turning into vapor, Torch's heat is easily melting Iceman's blast. Torch tho probably knows little about Iceman's powers past he can generate Ice, Iceman on the other hand probably knows plenty about Johnny as Johnny is practically a celebrity in the MU and well known power wise. Iceman like said about probably wouldn't use all his powers or think to use them, just as :spidey: doesn't web ppl in the eyes and punch them out blind everytime. He realizes a straight up ice vs fire blast test isn't going to win it for him. Torch is getting impatient and...eh nm, can't think of a good end to the scenario.

Point is I vote Iceman. Like said above when backed in a corner he lets more power leak out. His power is more unbeatable than Johnny's. Johnny's fire destroys, but doesn't protect Johnny outside of melting projectiles, which is why Hulk's sonic clap put the Torch out in another issue. Iceman on the other hand when in vapor form is untouchable, and really he doesn't have to concentrate to do it. When in ice form he is ice, when that ice is melted he's vapor, no difference, and no more thought than him being in ice form, he's just became a less tangible form of water. In vapor form Torch can go supernova and still not destroy that vapor. Basically Torch can out power Iceman, but Torch can't fully defeat Iceman. Torch can hold the upper hand for awhile, but can't deliver the final blow becomes Iceman can become untouchable, meanwhile Torch's power leaks out like a siv. After being Supernova Johnny's done for, and in human form. Iceman on the other hand is reforming from vapor and still fully powered. ONLY way I see Torch winning is if Iceman goes stupid for some reason and reverts to human form mid fight and gets torched, past that as long as Iceman is frosty, Torch just can't win. It's like trying to destroy butter with a knife, sure it cuts it easy, but that butter still exists even in separate pieces, even if you melt it it just becomes liquid and vapor. Same here, Iceman can be a puddle from Torch's heat, or vapor in the air, but Iceman's still alive and far from down, Torch runs out of juice, and virtually unijured Iceman reforms and ko's him.

If this is so, then why isn't Iceman the most powerful and effective being on the entire planet? I dunno about you, but the Iceman I know has been treated like a joke for so long that he's got no advantages in a fight with the Human Torch.

[Fading]

Honestly didn't mean to offend, and with characters constantly fluctating in power you can start an argument when ones powerful and the other weak and pathetic, and 2 months later roles reverse. I know you know X-Men as you've posted plenty, just in my mind Iceman's one of the more underappreciated hero's. Sure he's had his share of downer's, but the guys trained hard since he was a kid along with Cyke and the rest, been fighting longer than some of us have been alive. He's been thru plenty, and discovered more about himself than Icing up before Emma took him over. Though I do agree Emma made him realize he was only touching the tip of the Iceburg (no pun intended) of his power, but now that he's realized he has that power, it's probably a lot easier to tap into it. Like the first time you went skating and didn't want to because you didn't know you could, after a few tries you get better to the point of being able to without thinking about it.

I do agree his attitude is why he's not more fearsome. But he always struck me as the type when needed and called upon he can step up, and when backed into a corner he tries harder. Plus like stated above about him even being in human form and not killed when torched (body is what 90% water?), so for all we know his ability to control himself on a molecular level might not even be a concious one. Depending on the writer I guess, he might be near the lvl of turning into vapor being instinct, and a natural reaction to almost being killed.

[ProfeZZor X]

Complete lack of reading comprehension galore... no offense. When Emma Frost took over his body, she used his powers to a level he never had done. THAT is what I said. I cannot be held accountable if you couldn't understand that.

Actually, Iceman had already done two of the three things Emma did, LONG BEFORE she did.

1) Travel in water (her)
2) Heal from a massive wound (him, Uncanny #300)
3) Shape shift into organic form (him, Uncanny #302)

Because she did these things doesn't make her a better Iceman. I get tired of people using her as a leverage to what he's capable of doing. That's like saying Colossus is a better Magneto, because Colossus can manipulate organic metal better... It makes no sense.

The Official Iceman thread has plenty of pictures of him doing tons of things with his powers before and after Emma came along.... Most of them done on his own.

[Cyclops]

Then why did he go to her for advice during the Generation X years? Why did he go to her? Did he not say that she used his powers to a level he never had? Or am I just hallucinating?

[ProfeZZor X]

Then why did he go to her for advice during the Generation X years? Why did he go to her? Did he not say that she used his powers to a level he never had? Or am I just hallucinating?

That's because Marvel fell through the cracks once again and didn't bother to educate their writers on Iceman's previous history. In Uncanny #300, ten or more issues before Emma took over his body, he had his face shattered by someone with super strength, but recovered by healing and adding mass and spikes to defeat that foe. In #302, he became a ice slick on the road, and morphed into a giant hand, to capture a mutant hater. Then morphed into the bulkier (#300) version, with the mutant hater still in his giant hand. To me, that would have to take a tremendous amount of concentration to pull off.

Besides, you're talking about one minute little snippet of information that was a couple of panels long, in one book, and carried on into another issue. He even slowed the blood flow to her brain to prevent her from using her telepathy in that issue. Something she didn't expect from him, or do to those guards that blew the hole in her chest in that one issue. She travelled in water, and closed a hole in his chest... that's it. If you think that constitues her as being better than he's ever done, then I really do think you're hallucinating...

[toya thegr8]

I voted Iceman, because he has more in his arsenal than Human Torch.