Bane

[Dark Knight]

These are the new characters and actors/actress' I would like to see be involved in this film:


Main new characters:
Roman Sionis/Black Mask- Viggo Mortensen or Tom Hardy
Selina Kyle/Catwoman- Marion Cotillard, Eva Green or Olivia Wilde
Floyd Lawton/Deadshot- Tom Hardy

Minor supporting new characters:
Dr. Hugo Strange- Robin Williams
Oswald Cobblepot/Penguin- Bob Hoskins or Robin Williams

[Majik1387]

Please don't turn this into a casting thread

[Paste Pot Pete]

Majik, don't take this as an insult, but I'm kind of confused by the disparity between your dislike of casting threads and your avatar filled with fan-casted Avengers. :huh:

[Dark Knight]

Majik, don't take this as an insult, but I'm kind of confused by the disparity between your dislike of casting threads and your avatar filled with fan-casted Avengers. :huh:






LOL! :oldrazz:

[Sith Scotti]

Can we stop throwing around the term Redemption as evidence that Deacon Backfire is the villain. Many trilogies deal with Redemption without bringing in a religious leader( or someone using relion as misguided weapon) This is the hero's personal redemption in the eyes of the public.

[Sith Scotti]

Can we stop throwing around the term Redemption as evidence that Deacon Backfire is the villain. Many trilogies deal with Redemption without bringing in a religious leader( or someone using religion as misguided weapon) This is the hero's personal redemption in the eyes of the public.

[Majik1387]

Majik, don't take this as an insult, but I'm kind of confused by the disparity between your dislike of casting threads and your avatar filled with fan-casted Avengers. :huh:
Not insulted. Without straying too far off topic, my avatar is 15 characters. A majority of actors actually cast(8 of them), some are rumor based manips(4 of them), and the last 3 are my personal choices for the roles.

As for disliking the fan casting threads, the kind of logic and reasoning used in the threads never make sense with their choices, and the fact that everyone just goes like 'oh yeah, awesome' to truly horrible choices, it does hurt my eyes about the "sheeple" on these boards.

And that abridged is my feeling on casting threads.

[Asteroid-Man]

Well who's to say your choices aren't horrible? :huh:

[HighFivingMF]

Not insulted. Without straying too far off topic, my avatar is 15 characters. A majority of actors actually cast(8 of them), some are rumor based manips(4 of them), and the last 3 are my personal choices for the roles.

As for disliking the fan casting threads, the kind of logic and reasoning used in the threads never make sense with their choices, and the fact that everyone just goes like 'oh yeah, awesome' to truly horrible choices, it does hurt my eyes about the "sheeple" on these boards.

And that abridged is my feeling on casting threads.
oh yeah, awesome

[Majik1387]

Well who's to say your choices aren't horrible? :huh:
Not saying mine aren't horrible to some on here, but most the time when I see their suggestions, it just blows my mind what they consider quality.
When's the last time I went to the casting threads calling out every single horrible suggestion? A long time ago.
It became a waste of time and energy for me to take part in those threads to the point where I'd rather discuss the actual actors cast or rumored, or possible characters to appear, as opposed to just going into "Casting Threads"
I express my choices sometimes in the actor/character threads, but don't spam the threads with it; I simply do some fan arts and share them in my art thread, fan art threads and/or the character threads.

But I'm done talking about that in this thread.
oh yeah, awesome
Thanks? :huh:

[ScarecrowMan666]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think there's any possible way that Deacon Blackfire will be in this movie....:doh:

[The Guard]

Is it because of the taboo of religion? Because these themes have been dealt with in PG-13 movies before like RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, TEMPLE OF DOOM, LAST CRUSADE, DA VINCI CODE, ANGELS & DEMONS, SIGNS, etc

That's religion. Not REEEEELLIIIIIIGIOOOOON!

[bullets]

I would of never guessed Deacon Backfire ... interesting suggestion .

[TheBatman072]

I can't believe a one-shot, completely throw away villain like ****ing Deacon Blackfire is being banged round this thread.

My god. We've sunk low.

[Micah12345]

I'm in the middle of watching the take right now, the guys a really great actor. I can see why nolan cast him now.

[Doctor Who]

I'm still hoping for Bane right now; just rereading Knightfall again, and know the Nolan's and Tom Hardy could pull off him off as the main villain with a great success. Seriously, I think it's about time we saw him finally done some justice. :hrt:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rolM7UNc3jE/SIOH5ZsrwNI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/EG42vO37Kw8/s400/batman_bane_12.jpg

[Symbiotic]

Does Bane deserve to be done right in a live-action film? Yes. No question. Will we get it though? That's a little trickier to say. I wish someone would ask Nolan what his thoughts are on the character.

[ronny]

I can't believe a one-shot, completely throw away villain like ****ing Deacon Blackfire is being banged round this thread.

My god. We've sunk low.

I just love how you say things like that whilst ignoring everything I said. It really makes contributing to this topic worthwhile when people **** on your suggestions without even pretending to listen to your arguments and ideas.

[Solidus]

I've been thinking the same thing. Knightfall would fit perfectly after TDK's events, of course some tweaking here and there, but the whole arc is about a hero never giving up even when things are the worst. I think using Bane and Knightfall arc would be a good choice.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Other possible Hardy roles -

Signalman
Lord Death Man
Ratcatcher
Bag O'Bones

....

Magpie :wow:

[Lungrocket]

Can we stop throwing around the term Redemption as evidence that Deacon Backfire is the villain.

I never said Blackfire was the villain. I just don't think he's such an unlikely choice as everyone keeps making him out to be. And i really don't see any reason why people keep dismissing him when they offer no real reason for them not to use him.

They don't like him as a choice cause they want a more popular character (which isn't necessarily grounds for a character's inclusion or dismissal) or they haven't read the comic.

So Blackfire isn't popular... So what?! Ra's wasn't popular outside of Batman comic book fans (who by the way make up a very SMALL percentage of the people who actually see the films -- even with repeat business)

Many trilogies deal with Redemption without bringing in a religious leader( or someone using religion as misguided weapon) This is the hero's personal redemption in the eyes of the public.

So your telling me I shouldn't speculate what kind of redemption this will be, yet your now telling me (like its a fact) that its a "hero's personal redemption in the eyes of the public" Yeah, okay. :whatever:

If redemption is the theme, you can guarantee that Nolan will have many levels to his themes, and it won't be a simple pat answer or necessarily have one meaning.

[HighFivingMF]

Other possible Hardy roles -

Signalman
Lord Death Man
Ratcatcher
Bag O'Bones

....

Magpie :wow:
Baby Doll damn it!

[Lungrocket]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think there's any possible way that Deacon Blackfire will be in this movie....:doh:

Why not?

Back up your claim.

[Lungrocket]

I can't believe a one-shot, completely throw away villain like ****ing Deacon Blackfire is being banged round this thread. My god. We've sunk low.

You've read THE CULT then? How is he throw-away?

[Majik1387]

He's a nobody villain in terms of recognition to general public and even some comic fans, who was in a one shot story that even the link you provided called it "One of the most overlooked Batman tales" no matter how high quality the story has been; Plus a random cult leader is a random sense of direction after TDK.

There's nothing else that needs to be backed up.

You know what, Tom Hardy for Baby Doll.:o

[Lungrocket]

He's a nobody villain in terms of recognition to general public and even some comic fans,

RA'S AL GHUL! General public had no idea who this guy was!

who was in a one shot story that even the link you provided called it "One of the most overlooked Batman tales" no matter how high quality the story has been;

Whoever the villain is we are getting in TDK, they aren't going to be known outside of comic book fans. The biggies aren't being used. No Riddler. No Freeze. Catwoman (unless MADE more threatening doesn't count as a villain) No Penguin.

The general public doesn't care who the villain is as long as the movie is good. So again, your point does nothing to dismiss the possible inclusion of Blackfire. He stands as much chance of being included as Hugo Strange or Black Mask...

Again, I fail to see the relevance between overlooked and can't be used...

"Well that villain was amazingly well formed with a great premise and unique characteristics that make him a far more psychologically complex villain who poses a very realistic threat, but lets not use him because he's not popular enough."

Really? You think?

Plus a random cult leader is a random sense of direction after TDK.

How is he random? What's that even mean? How does that even qualify as an arguement?

There's nothing else that needs to be backed up.

Oh, I beg to differ.

[Bat-Mite]

Other possible Hardy roles -

Signalman
Lord Death Man
Ratcatcher
Bag O'Bones

....

Magpie :wow:Baby Doll damn it!Y'all are both way off. My sources have just given me the latest scoop. These are the two villains:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5868/nomnoma.jpg

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8494/fatty.jpg

Hardy will be playing the Sewer King (top one) and Rosie O'Donnell will be playing the other. Their characters will be known as the Drumstick Brothers, and they will terrorize Gotham by stealing all of the city's fried chicken.

[Wolverine1988]

Was watching Aviator and came to the conlusion that if by some unlikley chance that Penguin were to appear in this, i think Danny Huston would be awsome as that role.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Oh, god. If Hardy is Sewer King I'm locking myself in my room, boycotting all of Nolan's movies, and crying in the corner clutching my Joker plush.

THAT'S NOT MY BATMAN!!!

[Octoberist]

RA'S AL GHUL! General public had no idea who this guy was!



You keep picking and choosing what you what to respond to, Lungrocket. Admit it.

Because again and again, people have stated that Ra's may not be well known to the public, he is known to the comic book audience. Same thing with Scarecrow. And both have been in major, multiple arcs in the comics. But I'm sure you're smart enough to know why people are super skeptical about Blackfire, right? From the get-go, you can't expect people to really back you up unless they knew the character (and not out of being gracious to a fellow comic book fan.)

Blackfire negates BOTH the general public and the comic book audience. What are the chances David Goyer and Nolan know about Blackfire, I don't know. I think it's pretty slim, sir.

Again, I'm not trying to bash you or Blackfire, but your persistence on using the character is both amusing and out of this world!!!! :)

[clownboy]

Tom WILL be the main bad guy in TDKR, so all that Bullock bollocks can be put to rest and it WILL be a character that we have never seen in a Batman film EVER!! Which means NO BANE, NO FREEZE, NO COBBLEPOT!

Who will he be? F**K knows but at least we have a slightly smaller pool to swim in.

Ignore this if you want but when the news drops remember.........

'I'm a man of my word!!!'

[Lungrocket]

You keep picking and choosing what you what to respond to, Lungrocket. Admit it.

I answered both questions. I just answered the second part of question in the post above that one. Problem is no one seems to read, or seem to IGNORE what I wrote in their responses.

Popularity has no baring on which villain is going to play a factor in the story, since all the famous rogue characters are not being used. So it levels the playing field as there is no arguing Black Mask, Killer Croc, Strange over Blackfire...

I also mentioned that Batman comic fans make up very LITTLE of the gross for the films. Even with repeat viewings. So it really doesn't matter which villain Nolan chooses, he will choose who he thinks will be the best villain...not the popular one...

Because again and again, people have stated that Ra's may not be well known to the public, he is known to the comic book audience.

Again. Comic audience is minimal. What matters is...does the villain work for the story...

Same thing with Scarecrow. And both have been in major, multiple arcs in the comics. But I'm sure you're smart enough to know why people are super skeptical about Blackfire, right?

Yes. Cause he isn't popular :whatever: or they either haven't read the graphic novel. :woot:

From the get-go, you can't expect people to really back you up unless they knew the character (and not out of being gracious to a fellow comic book fan.)

Then perhaps they should read the graphic novel before dismissing him as a possibility.

Blackfire negates BOTH the general public and the comic book audience.

Well, Nolan likes surprises....

What are the chances David Goyer and Nolan know about Blackfire, I don't know. I think it's pretty slim, sir.

Pretty good actually, since Goyer is older and has an extensive knowledge of Batman.

Again, I'm not trying to bash you or Blackfire, but your persistence on using the character is both amusing and out of this world!!!! :)

He's just as likely as any other villain to be used, since the ones he has left to choose from aren't known.

[Keyser Soze]

I'm in the middle of watching the take right now, the guys a really great actor. I can see why nolan cast him now.

The Take was great. Tom Hardy's character is really vile in that, isn't he?

[Keyser Soze]

Also, as much as I highly doubt Deacon Blackfire is going to be the villain, to be honest it's as reasonable a guess as any other at this stage. We're totally in the dark here, and all any of us are doing is speculating. I don't agree with him, but maybe people shouldn't be giving Lungrocket so hard a time for his outside-the-box GUESS, just because it's different from our more obvious GUESS.

[King K]

I remember a long time ago an article that said Phillip Seymore Hofman told his old drama professor that he was offered The Penguin in TDK and he turned it down, always wondered if it was true or just a rumor.

[The Joker]

Y'all are both way off. My sources have just given me the latest scoop. These are the two villains:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5868/nomnoma.jpg

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8494/fatty.jpg

Hardy will be playing the Sewer King (top one) and Rosie O'Donnell will be playing the other. Their characters will be known as the Drumstick Brothers, and they will terrorize Gotham by stealing all of the city's fried chicken.

LOL!

They were both great one shot villains. Especially Boss Biggis.

[Octoberist]

[/B]

I answered both questions. I just answered the second part of question in the post above that one. Problem is no one seems to read, or seem to IGNORE what I wrote in their responses.

Popularity has no baring on which villain is going to play a factor in the story, since all the famous rogue characters are not being used. So it levels the playing field as there is no arguing Black Mask, Killer Croc, Strange over Blackfire...

I also mentioned that Batman comic fans make up very LITTLE of the gross for the films. Even with repeat viewings. So it really doesn't matter which villain Nolan chooses, he will choose who he thinks will be the best villain...not the popular one...



Again. Comic audience is minimal. What matters is...does the villain work for the story...



Yes. Cause he isn't popular :whatever: or they either haven't read the graphic novel. :woot:



Then perhaps they should read the graphic novel before dismissing him as a possibility.



Well, Nolan likes surprises....



Pretty good actually, since Goyer is older and has an extensive knowledge of Batman.



He's just as likely as any other villain to be used, since the ones he has left to choose from aren't known.

I think you're a good guy, Lungrocket. haha, so I'm not trying to BUST YOUR CHOPS

[Dark Sentinel]

Even though Hardy has the look for Strange thanks to Bronson, I don't think that, as a character, Strange would work in a Nolan Batman film. I'm going with my gut here, but Hardy has the look for Roman Sionis/Black Mask. And it would work storywise: Bruce could find himself pushed to the edge not just as Batman but in the corporate world as well, with Sionis trying to take over Wayne Enterprises. Works a hell of a lot better for a movie than Hugo Strange if you ask me.

And from what I've read about Blackfire, I actually like him. He'd work great as a minor villain, probably a schitzophrenic Fear Toxin victim living in the Narrows.

[Majik1387]

I remember a long time ago an article that said Phillip Seymore Hofman told his old drama professor that he was offered The Penguin in TDK and he turned it down, always wondered if it was true or just a rumor.
It was a horrible rumor

[raybia]

You keep picking and choosing what you what to respond to, Lungrocket. Admit it.

Because again and again, people have stated that Ra's may not be well known to the public, he is known to the comic book audience. Same thing with Scarecrow. And both have been in major, multiple arcs in the comics. But I'm sure you're smart enough to know why people are super skeptical about Blackfire, right? From the get-go, you can't expect people to really back you up unless they knew the character (and not out of being gracious to a fellow comic book fan.)

Blackfire negates BOTH the general public and the comic book audience. What are the chances David Goyer and Nolan know about Blackfire, I don't know. I think it's pretty slim, sir.

Again, I'm not trying to bash you or Blackfire, but your persistence on using the character is both amusing and out of this world!!!! :)

Goyer I would say 100%, Jonah 90%, Chris 50%

[Dark Sentinel]

Raybia's back!

[raybia]

Not to burst anyone's bubble put the blacfkfire speculation, though its beginning to take on a life of its own, is still just speculation. Do this with all of the villains that hasn't been ruled out, someone is bound to be right. Personally, and I know this isn't a popular choice, but I wouldn't mind scarecrow being the main villain. Scarecrow himself, though in the last 2 movies, only really made cameo appearances. The fear gas, or a new Version of it could be used in a very clever way in the 3rd movie. Maybe in a very inception type way where Nolan could actually justify not using his "grounded realism" for at least a portionof the film.

[raybia]

Raybia's back!

A new Batman movie must be coming out!:cwink:

[Dark Sentinel]

Not to burst anyone's bubble put the blacfkfire speculation, though its beginning to take on a life of its own, is still just speculation. Do this with all of the villains that hasn't been ruled out, someone is bound to be right. Personally, and I know this isn't a popular choice, but I wouldn't mind scarecrow being the main villain. Scarecrow himself, though in the last 2 movies, only really made cameo appearances. The fear gas, or a new Version of it could be used in a very clever way in the 3rd movie. Maybe in a very inception type way where Nolan could actually justify not using his "grounded realism" for at least a portionof the film.

Interesting idea, raybia. I like it :up:

[Figs]

LOL!

They were both great one shot villains. Especially Boss Biggis.

The recurring theme music to that episode was so great and full of machismo.

[Dark Sentinel]

A new Batman movie must be coming out!:cwink:

As Freeman said in RED: "Looks like we're gettin' the band back together!" :hoboj:

[raybia]

As Freeman said in RED: "Looks like we're gettin' the band back together!" :hoboj:

We're on a mission...from God.

[MotherFlippa]

Raybia's back!
Coming out the wood work in preperation ...

:cwink:

It's go time ...

[Dark Sentinel]

Flippa, were you a lurker during the TDK virals? Not being rude man, just asking :hoboj:

[MotherFlippa]

Flippa, were you a lurker during the TDK virals? Not being rude man, just asking :hoboj:
Not lurking ...

[Solidus]

Were you banned?

[RustyCage]

Not to burst anyone's bubble put the blacfkfire speculation, though its beginning to take on a life of its own, is still just speculation. Do this with all of the villains that hasn't been ruled out, someone is bound to be right. Personally, and I know this isn't a popular choice, but I wouldn't mind scarecrow being the main villain. Scarecrow himself, though in the last 2 movies, only really made cameo appearances. The fear gas, or a new Version of it could be used in a very clever way in the 3rd movie. Maybe in a very inception type way where Nolan could actually justify not using his "grounded realism" for at least a portionof the film.

Totally down for this. Some complimentary side villains that we haven't seen before would be great of course.

I said this before, but Scarecrow would be a great enhancement for Black Mask if they teamed up. Black Mask's torture scenes would be terrifying, and if he had the expressionless mask most people here seem to want, perhaps while under the gas, victims see it as a black skull, to appease fans of that look as well.

Scarecrow could benefit the movie in just about any direction it goes after TDK. A truly scary Batman film would be a dream come true.

I still want to hear screaming like we heard in the beginning of this:

yK_0GAWPKtQ

[Dark Sentinel]

Totally down for this. Some complimentary side villains that we haven't seen before would be great of course .

I said this before, but Scarecrow would be a great enhancement for Black Mask if they teamed up. Black Mask's torture scenes would be terrifying, and if he had the expressionless mask most people here seem to want, perhaps while under the gas, victims see it as a black skull, to appease fans of that look as well.

Scarecrow could benefit the movie in just about any direction it goes after TDK. A truly scary Batman film would be a dream come true.

I still want to hear screaming like we heard in the beginning of this:

yK_0GAWPKtQ

:up: this

[MotherFlippa]

A truly scary Batman film would be a dream come true.
That's subjective. Many reviewers thought TDK was "haunting" and "frightening" ... and it is ... from its brutal fight scenes, decaying Joker look, but more important the frightening ideas and themes of the movie, which echo real world post 9-11 fears.

[The Guard]

Even though Hardy has the look for Strange thanks to Bronson, I don't think that, as a character, Strange would work in a Nolan Batman film

Why?

[The Demon's Head]

Hugo Strange and Christopher Nolan are a perfect match.

[Solidus]

I still think using Bane may a good choice. Using a super intelligent character, that can also pose a physical challenge would be good. That and the Knightfall series really is about a hero over coming, and the first part is all about him being hated by everyone.

But I'm sure whoever Nolan picks will be good. He will make it into an interesting adaptation I'm sure.

[Dark Sentinel]

Why?

Nothing in particular, to me it doesn't seem like Strange would fit. I mean sure, Nolan could strip him down to his bare essentials as a psycho psychologist, but we already had that in Scarecrow. It would seem a bit repetitive to me IMO, and Nolan isnt repetitive when it comes to characters. Plus, Hardy's swagger in Inception better suits himmfor Sionis. But then again I still haven't seen BRONSON yet, so I have somewhat of a one-sided opinion.

[RustyCage]

That's subjective. Many reviewers thought TDK was "haunting" and "frightening" ... and it is ... from its brutal fight scenes, decaying Joker look, but more important the frightening ideas and themes of the movie, which echo real world post 9-11 fears.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Joker spooked my socks off the first time. It was very chilling. But I still believe things could get a lot scarier.

Also, I didn't find the fights to be all that brutal, they were decidedly tame compared to those of Begins. In TDK, they were more about looking technical, and were rather robotic and clean, and typically lacked emotion. [Insert unnecessarily long description of what was so aggressive and emotive about Begins' fight scenes by comparison here.]

I'll try not to get started again. :funny:

[The Demon's Head]

I still think using Bane may a good choice. Using a super intelligent character, that can also pose a physical challenge would be good. That and the Knightfall series really is about a hero over coming, and the first part is all about him being hated by everyone.

But I'm sure whoever Nolan picks will be good. He will make it into an interesting adaptation I'm sure. Bane would be a great choice, and for a while I was convinced Hardy is playing him, but Jett ruled him out when he said Hardy is playing a character that hasn't appeared on screen.

[Majik1387]

Totally down for this. Some complimentary side villains that we haven't seen before would be great of course.

I said this before, but Scarecrow would be a great enhancement for Black Mask if they teamed up. Black Mask's torture scenes would be terrifying, and if he had the expressionless mask most people here seem to want, perhaps while under the gas, victims see it as a black skull, to appease fans of that look as well.

Scarecrow could benefit the movie in just about any direction it goes after TDK. A truly scary Batman film would be a dream come true.

I still want to hear screaming like we heard in the beginning of this:

yK_0GAWPKtQ
Now this I fully like.:up:

[Majik1387]

Nothing in particular, to me it doesn't seem like Strange would fit. I mean sure, Nolan could strip him down to his bare essentials as a psycho psychologist, but we already had that in Scarecrow. It would seem a bit repetitive to me IMO, and Nolan isnt repetitive when it comes to characters. Plus, Hardy's swagger in Inception better suits himmfor Sionis. But then again I still haven't seen BRONSON yet, so I have somewhat of a one-sided opinion.
:huh:
Are you sure about that?

[Dark Sentinel]

:huh:
Are you sure about that?

Pretty sure. But I've been wrong before...

[ScarecrowMan666]

Why not?

Back up your claim.


For one, do you honestly think that anyone really gives a damn about Blackfire besides you? I mean seriously dude, out of all the great Rogues that Batman has, you pick him. I've read The Cult, and I don't really see the big deal about it. Of course it was interesting to see Batman broken mentally....but that's not cause enough for him to be the villain in TDKR. Furthermore, if he was used, he would pretty much have to be used as a side villain. Nolan couldn't seriously expect a character like that to carry one of the most anticipated movies in years. For you to think that Blackfire could stand up to the threat that Joker posed is simply laughable.

[ScarecrowMan666]

Not to burst anyone's bubble put the blacfkfire speculation, though its beginning to take on a life of its own, is still just speculation. Do this with all of the villains that hasn't been ruled out, someone is bound to be right. Personally, and I know this isn't a popular choice, but I wouldn't mind scarecrow being the main villain. Scarecrow himself, though in the last 2 movies, only really made cameo appearances. The fear gas, or a new Version of it could be used in a very clever way in the 3rd movie. Maybe in a very inception type way where Nolan could actually justify not using his "grounded realism" for at least a portionof the film.


I would personally love to see this happen given that Scarecrow is my favorite all time villain, and I feel he deserves something more than what we've seen thus far. I still think we need another villain though...

[The Demon's Head]

Guys, Nolan likes intellectual, layered villains, who challenge Batman both mentally and physically, while testing his moral boundaries. Both Hugo Strange and Black Mask could potentially fit with the themes established in Nolan's movies, but I honestly can't see Black Mask getting under Batman's skin, while Hugo Strange has a lot of potential to do just that.

Think about it. On the one hand, we have a psychopath who wants to replace Batman, and on the other hand, we have another disfigured villain, who happens to be connected to the mob.

[Majik1387]

Guys, Nolan likes intellectual, layered villains, who challenge Batman both mentally and physically, while testing his moral boundaries. Both Hugo Strange and Black Mask could potentially fit with the themes established in Nolan's movies, but I honestly can't see Black Mask getting under Batman's skin, while Hugo Strange has a lot of potential to do just that.

Think about it. On the one hand, we have a psychopath who wants to replace Batman, and on the other hand, we have another disfigured villain, who happens to be connected to the mob.
Scarecrow can get under Batman's skin and test his moral boundaries, while Black Mask would be able to challenge him physically and mentally, as well as Bruce Wayne.

It's a win-win.

Strange just doesn't work to me, same for Bane.

[raybia]

I would personally love to see this happen given that Scarecrow is my favorite all time villain, and I feel he deserves something more than what we've seen thus far. I still think we need another villain though...

I agree. Pair him with anyone and it could be interesting, especially with blacfkfire, you could have a movie along the lines of Constantine and the Crow.

[MotherFlippa]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Joker spooked my socks off the first time. It was very chilling. But I still believe things could get a lot scarier.
There is ideas more chilling than simply what the Joker brings to the movie . . .

What do you consider to be scary? Torture porn and grotesque imagery, or frightening ideas and concepts with which the mind can run with infinetely? Is Clockwork Orange a scary movie to you? I find it more frightening than any "Hostel" or "Saw" movie ...

Also, I didn't find the fights to be all that brutal, they were decidedly tame compared to those of Begins.
I disagree ... the sound effects, and the way they let the camera linger on the fight scenes without the quick cuts, and fast editing made it more brutal. They cut the fights scene in BEGINS to be fast and to the point, to play up the quickstrike nature of this "Batman creature" ...

Batman slamming Joker's head into glass in the interrogation room, the brutal sounds of bones breaking when he's beating Maroni's men in the night club.

All to me was much more brutal than anything in BEGINS.

[Doctor Who]

I still think using Bane may a good choice. Using a super intelligent character, that can also pose a physical challenge would be good. That and the Knightfall series really is about a hero over coming, and the first part is all about him being hated by everyone.

But I'm sure whoever Nolan picks will be good. He will make it into an interesting adaptation I'm sure.

Agreed.

[Excelsior.]

:huh:
Are you sure about that?


Nolan is repetitive? :huh:

[Dark Knight]

There is ideas more chilling than simply what the Joker brings to the movie . . .

What do you consider to be scary? Torture porn and grotesque imagery, or frightening ideas and concepts with which the mind can run with infinetely? Is Clockwork Orange a scary movie to you? I find it more frightening than any "Hostel" or "Saw" movie ...


I disagree ... the sound effects, and the way they let the camera linger on the fight scenes without the quick cuts, and fast editing made it more brutal. They cut the fights scene in BEGINS to be fast and to the point, to play up the quickstrike nature of this "Batman creature" ...

Batman slamming Joker's head into glass in the interrogation room, the brutal sounds of bones breaking when he's beating Maroni's men in the night club.

All to me was much more brutal than anything in BEGINS.





A Clockwork Orange was a very disturbing film.

[mustangman]

Hello,

I am new here but I have followed this board for some time and had a few comments!

Batman 'begins' as a result of the mob and their influence in Gotham. In TDK we see the Joker rip apart the mob either himself or through Dent/Batman. Point being, in Nolan's 'realistic' Gotham the mob is a central theme to the stories, and the escalation villains come after Batman is introduced to the city. In a realistic world, it is hard to believe that the mob would just stop due to all of the members being wacked! IMO, the mob is too central to Nolan's films to just be dropped so I expect either a new mob boss or one of the escalation villians to take over the mob. (Black Mask/Penguin probably the front runners)

Regardless, Nolan has shown he will probably use two or three villians in the film, be it the loony escalation villians or mob bosses. Begins used all new villians while TDK used the classic ones. I'm thinking he'll use at least one classic character and one that is less known in TDKRises to balance things out. Just a guess though!

Personally, I think Black Mask would be neat to see but I think Nolan will avoid telling any backstory to a villian in this one. He'll likely pick a character that simply moves the plot against Batman while focusing the film on Bruce Wayne/Batman.

BTW, I'm not even sure Hardy is going to be a villian. Could be the guy Gordan has to put in charge of bringing the Batman in. Here's an out of right field suggeston but how about Deathstroke as a side villian?

[Keyser Soze]

Welcome to the Hype!

[mustangman]

Welcome to the Hype!

Thanks

[Lungrocket]

Also, as much as I highly doubt Deacon Blackfire is going to be the villain, to be honest it's as reasonable a guess as any other at this stage. We're totally in the dark here, and all any of us are doing is speculating. I don't agree with him, but maybe people shouldn't be giving Lungrocket so hard a time for his outside-the-box GUESS, just because it's different from our more obvious GUESS.

Thank you.

[Lungrocket]

I think you're a good guy, Lungrocket. haha, so I'm not trying to BUST YOUR CHOPS

It's cool. :woot:

[TheBatman072]

You've read THE CULT then? How is he throw-away?


Yes I've read The Cult. It was alright.

How many times since The Cult have you seen Deacon Blackfire used? Blackest night. As a zombie Lantern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon_Blackfire

that's how much he sucks.

He's a conman with an army of homeless people. Real exciting.

[Dark Sentinel]

Yes I've read The Cult. It was alright.

How many times since The Cult have you seen Deacon Blackfire used? Blackest night. As a zombie Lantern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon_Blackfire

that's how much he sucks.

He's a conman with an army of homeless people. Real exciting.

Dude, chill..don't go all Jett on him man, sheesh..

[HighFivingMF]

He's a conman with an army of homeless people. Real exciting.
Yeah, Joker totally didn't con the mob out of their money with a troop of former mental patients. :woot:

[TheBatman072]

Yeah, Joker totally didn't con the mob out of their money with a troop of former mental patients. :woot:


Not even remotely the same thing.

[Lungrocket]

Yes I've read The Cult. It was alright.

It's stuck with me for 20 years. It's a pretty memorable story.

Yeah, you must have read it according to your next question... :whatever:

How many times since The Cult have you seen Deacon Blackfire used? Blackest night. As a zombie Lantern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon_Blackfire


I don't know... DEATH can tend to put a damper on future appearances. :doh:

He's a conman with an army of homeless people. Real exciting.

And a psychologically complex man, who mentally bends people's will and breaks Batman (before Bane came along and did it). Who also turns Gotham itself into a prison/battle zone (with shades of ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK.) The Government can't even stop him. But alas... the dark knight rises. :cwink:

[TheBatman072]

It's stuck with me for 20 years. It's a pretty memorable story.

Yeah, you must have read it according to your next question... :whatever:



I don't know... DEATH can tend to put a damper on future appearances. :doh:

You should probably stop bringing up people's abilities to read things when you yourself apparently aren't able to.

If you had read my post, I made mention that he came back as a zombie lantern in Blackest Night.

Meaning...I knew he was dead.

See how simple that was?

And since when has death stopped POPULAR characters from coming back?

I guess The Cult's impression wasn't all that great eh?

[Paste Pot Pete]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g149/wingedfreakterrorizes/0JimStarlin.jpg

Jim Starlin is upset that his work is causing such conflict. :o

[Figs]

Hello,

I am new here but I have followed this board for some time and had a few comments!

Welcome!

Batman 'begins' as a result of the mob and their influence in Gotham. In TDK we see the Joker rip apart the mob either himself or through Dent/Batman. Point being, in Nolan's 'realistic' Gotham the mob is a central theme to the stories, and the escalation villains come after Batman is introduced to the city. In a realistic world, it is hard to believe that the mob would just stop due to all of the members being wacked! IMO, the mob is too central to Nolan's films to just be dropped so I expect either a new mob boss or one of the escalation villians to take over the mob. (Black Mask/Penguin probably the front runners)

That's what I'm hoping for, in regards to the more freak like villians taking over the mob. I just don't want to see any regular mobsters other than goons really.

Regardless, Nolan has shown he will probably use two or three villians in the film, be it the loony escalation villians or mob bosses. Begins used all new villians while TDK used the classic ones. I'm thinking he'll use at least one classic character and one that is less known in TDK Rises to balance things out. Just a guess though!

That's a good guess, I can see that happening as well. Being a big fan of the comics I don't think I'll mind who the villian or villians are in the end because I think the Nolans and Goyer will do a good job. Like a lot of other people my guesses are Hugo Strange and Blackmask.

Personally, I think Black Mask would be neat to see but I think Nolan will avoid telling any backstory to a villian in this one. He'll likely pick a character that simply moves the plot against Batman while focusing the film on Bruce Wayne/Batman.

What I was thinking is that he would just skip the Black Mask's background and just have him as a rival corporate owner to Wayne and on the side he's the criminal taking over the mob. They don't really need to get into his childhood and him killing his parents to make him work.

BTW, I'm not even sure Hardy is going to be a villian. Could be the guy Gordan has to put in charge of bringing the Batman in. Here's an out of right field suggeston but how about Deathstroke as a side villian?

Deathstroke is pretty cool but if they have a character like that in the next film I'm pulling for Deadshot, I like him a little more. As for Hardy, I won't mind if he's not a villian but I think he would excel at being one of the bad guys.

[Lungrocket]

You should probably stop bringing up people's abilities to read things when you yourself apparently aren't able to.

I didn't. But now i will, since your bringing it up. I said you obviously didn't read THE CULT. It had zero to do with reading comprehension.

If you had read my post, I made mention that he came back as a zombie lantern in Blackest Night. Meaning...I knew he was dead.

Then if you knew that, then why would you ask me why he wasn't reused? You answered your own question. So you must realize it was kind of a dumb question to ask.

And since when has death stopped POPULAR characters from coming back?

The better question is, when has bringing characters back from the dead ever been a good plot device? Outside of RA'S, who obviously has that worked into his backstory, it's a lame story contrivance for any other reason.

I guess The Cult's impression wasn't all that great eh?

IGN ranked THE CULT as 6th out of the 25 best Batman Graphic Novels. It might be too dark a story for your sensitive tastes, but its still a revered piece of work.

But seeing as how you judge things based on POPULARITY, I'm sure your a big Jonas Brother's fan and also loved Brittany Spears back in the day. :cwink:

[TheBatman072]

Then if you knew that, then why would you ask me why he wasn't reused? You answered your own question. So you must realize it was kind of a dumb question to ask.

No, not a dumb question. Like I said, if he was at all a good character worthy of being brought back from the dead, he would have been already and not a a zombie.

The better question is, when has bringing characters back from the dead ever been a good plot device? Outside of RA'S, who obviously has that worked into his backstory, it's a lame story contrivance for any other reason.

I agree. But it hasn't stopped DC or Marvel from bringing back a lot of the good characters they killed off. Unlike Deacon Blackfire.

[Lungrocket]

No, not a dumb question. Like I said, if he was at all a good character worthy of being brought back from the dead, he would have been already and not a a zombie.

Yes, that obviously validates your arguement. :doh:

I agree. But it hasn't stopped DC or Marvel from bringing back a lot of the good characters they killed off. Unlike Deacon Blackfire.

So only worthwhile characters get brought back from the dead. Yeah, okay. :whatever:

You know, I get why some don't like him. He isn't sexy enough. Doesn't have that gimmick. But one thing the character has is teeth. He's a much more layered and real character than most of the Batman villains, which makes him perfect for Nolan's take.

I don't see people getting excited if he was announced as the villain either. Not much in the way of costume, etc.

Fanboys crave desert. They want to see the imagery of the known characters brought to life. Deacon doesn't offer that, so its no fun. Deacon is the healthy meal no one wants to eat, but would feel more nourished after eating it. They would be singing a different tune once they saw the finished film and would get a more satisfying experience.

That's my theory.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Do you understand though, Lungrocket, the prefered desire by many fans on this board to see a more classic, "essential" rogue in TDKR? Many of whom have either never been represented (Hugo Strange, Black Mask) or have received inadequate representation (Bane). And it doesn't mean these characters are better, or "deserve" a spot over Blackfire; but if faced with the choice, I don't think it's shocking that people would choose to see a more beloved character immortalized on film.

[Lungrocket]

Do you understand though, Lungrocket, the prefered desire by many fans on this board to see a more classic, "essential" rogue in TDKR? Many of whom have either never been represented (Hugo Strange, Black Mask) or have received inadequate representation (Bane). And it doesn't mean these characters are better, or "deserve" a spot over Blackfire; but if faced with the choice, I don't think it's shocking that people would choose to see a more beloved character immortalized on film.

I totally get it. But I'm not basing my judgement on Blackfire because that's who I want to see the most. I am suggesting him because I think he is closer to what Nolan is doing.

Take Black Mask. Say he is a dark mirror for wayne with his upbringing and the like. That's all well and good, but Nolan isn't Burton or Schumacher who works an origin in for every villain. His world the villain just IS. Outside of Dent, who was still the supporting villain, because he was one of the good guys to begin with, Nolan's villains are already formed, so I don't see him using Black Mask's origin and without that little morsel, he is just a mob guy with a mask.

And the mob villains are relagated to support villains in Nolan's world, so if BM is included, I don't see that going farther than say Scarecrow in Begins (probably just one up from Falcone, Maroni), because he doesn't offer the kind of global style menace or threat that the Joker or Ras do.

Nolan recently stated he is looking to keep that epic sweep the prior films had, so with that in mind, I am trying to think of villains that bring that level of seriousness, and i don't get that from say Black Mask or Hugo Strange. Least not as the main villain.

I can see Hugo working within the story. But him wanting to take out batman to become batman -- is that really big enough or involving enough or moving enough or gripping enough to merit him as the main heavy? The only plus to Hugo acting like batman is that he could take the fall as a fake batman for what Batman is being accused of at the end of TDK.

But again, to me, I don't see that as grandiose enough. I'm not saying i wouldn't see it at all, but it doesn't feel like an epic conclusion to the trilogy.

Blackfire is the only one so far I can think of that has the potential for that epic kind of sweep.

So again...

Not ruling against other villains out of spite. Just seeing where Nolan has gone twice before and how does he maintain that level of scope without being redundant? Yes, you could rewrite those characters, but why would you when you already have rich material to work with.

[Paste Pot Pete]

The villain in this final installment needs to represent the ultimate logical conclusion of all the ideas and themes that Nolan has been building up to this point.

I just don't see Blackfire as the logical conclusion to the ideas of BB and TDK. I think whoever the villain ends up being needs to represent the culmination of the "rise of the freaks" concept.

I think the idea of a cult leader fits perfectly, but I think Black Mask would make the better leader. His False Face society is perfectly poised to be a great, epic threat - it fulfills the idea of the disenfranchised and mentally disturbed of Gotham being attracted to a charismatic leader, while at the same time allowing for a "freak army" - almost a counterpoint to the fake Batmen in TDK. Maybe some of them wear Joker masks. You could even use it as an opportunity to throw in cameos (or simply visual nods - maybe three False Facers bare the visages of the Terrible Trio?)

I just think the text of the last two films is too strong to abandon. It sounds like a superficial thing, but I genuinely feel that it's important, thematically, for the final villain to be a "costumed" villain.

[The Guard]

I totally get it. But I'm not basing my judgement on Blackfire because that's who I want to see the most. I am suggesting him because I think he is closer to what Nolan is doing.

In what sense?

[Lungrocket]

In what sense?

The fact that blackfire feels more like a real world threat, like Koresh, Phelps, etc. And we know how much Nolan likes his realism.

[raybia]

The villain in this final installment needs to represent the ultimate logical conclusion of all the ideas and themes that Nolan has been building up to this point.

I just don't see Blackfire as the logical conclusion to the ideas of BB and TDK. I think whoever the villain ends up being needs to represent the culmination of the "rise of the freaks" concept.

I think the idea of a cult leader fits perfectly, but I think Black Mask would make the better leader. His False Face society is perfectly poised to be a great, epic threat - it fulfills the idea of the disenfranchised and mentally disturbed of Gotham being attracted to a charismatic leader, while at the same time allowing for a "freak army" - almost a counterpoint to the fake Batmen in TDK. Maybe some of them wear Joker masks. You could even use it as an opportunity to throw in cameos (or simply visual nods - maybe three False Facers bare the visages of the Terrible Trio?)

I just think the text of the last two films is too strong to abandon. It sounds like a superficial thing, but I genuinely feel that it's important, thematically, for the final villain to be a "costumed" villain.
Well said and I agree with you wholeheartedly except that black mask should be that villain. Maybe he will be but I'm just not convinced at this point.

[The Guard]

The fact that blackfire feels more like a real world threat, like Koresh, Phelps, etc. And we know how much Nolan likes his realism.

Except that the villains in BATMAN BEGINS were a man who leads a secret society of ninjas...and a guy who uses toxin to create fear while dressing in a Scarecrow mask.

And the villains in THE DARK KNIGHT were a killer clown and a man with half his face and body burned to the point where he shouldn't have been able to survive. Other than the mobsters, Nolan hasn't touched a realistic villain.

[raybia]

The fact that blackfire feels more like a real world threat, like Koresh, Phelps, etc. And we know how much Nolan likes his realism.

I don't think that is the case at all based on some of his movie selections. It's just that he thought he could extract more from the Batman mythology with this approach and he wasn't the first to do so.

[raybia]

Except that the villains in BATMAN BEGINS were a man who leads a secret society of ninjas...and a guy who uses toxin to create fear while dressing in a Scarecrow mask.

And the villains in THE DARK KNIGHT were a killer clown and a man with half his face and body burned to the point where he shouldn't have been able to survive. Other than the mobsters, Nolan hasn't touched a realistic villain.

Yeah that too. It's not realsm, it a perception of realism that he uses.

[solidsnake86]

Yeah that too. It's not realsm, it a perception of realism that he uses.

Some people fail to grasp that though.

[raybia]

Some people fail to grasp that though.

Many people. M. Night did it before Nolan did as well as many other directors.

[Paste Pot Pete]

I think the theme might appeal to Nolan, but the character itself may be too on-the-nose (yes, even for Nolan!). He's almost too close to Koresh, without the buffer layer of fantasy.

It'd almost be like Nolan, instead of using Ra's or Joker as a symbol for real world terrorism, simply had Batman fight Osama bin Laden himself.

[raybia]

I think the theme might appeal to Nolan, but the character itself may be too on-the-nose (yes, even for Nolan!). He's almost too close to Koresh, without the buffer layer of fantasy.

It'd almost be like Nolan, instead of using Ra's or Joker as a symbol for real world terrorism, simply had Batman fight Osama bin Laden himself.

Good point. Maybe its too close to home.

[Happy Jack]

Many people. M. Night did it before Nolan did as well as many other directors.
As far as superheroes go Richard Donner was the first to do it with Superman. Nolan's approach to the Batman mythos has basically been the same template that Donner used.

[raybia]

As far as superheroes go Richard Donner was the first to do with Superman. Nolan's approach to the Batman mythos has basically been the same template that Donner used.

True dat.

[childeroland]

The villain in this final installment needs to represent the ultimate logical conclusion of all the ideas and themes that Nolan has been building up to this point.

[...]

I think the idea of a cult leader fits perfectly, but I think Black Mask would make the better leader. His False Face society is perfectly poised to be a great, epic threat - it fulfills the idea of the disenfranchised and mentally disturbed of Gotham being attracted to a charismatic leader, while at the same time allowing for a "freak army" - almost a counterpoint to the fake Batmen in TDK. Maybe some of them wear Joker masks. You could even use it as an opportunity to throw in cameos (or simply visual nods - maybe three False Facers bare the visages of the Terrible Trio?)

I just think the text of the last two films is too strong to abandon. It sounds like a superficial thing, but I genuinely feel that it's important, thematically, for the final villain to be a "costumed" villain.

In the comics, does Black Mask fit into the mob as perfectly as he does the freaks? Maybe the final villain will be someone who inhabits those two worlds equally well as, I suppose, Bruce/Batman will have to learn to inhabit both sides of his personality, to call it that. And Black Mask might be perfect for that?

[antsman41]

As far as superheroes go Richard Donner was the first to do it with Superman. Nolan's approach to the Batman mythos has basically been the same template that Donner used.

That's why and how Nolan got the job...

He told WB he wanted to follow the Superman: The Movie, Donner, etc.

-Unknown for the lead (hero): Bale = Reeve
-Classic actors for supporting: Neeson/Cain/Freeman = Brando, etc...
-Real Locations: Chicago = New York
-Origin = Origin

lay-de-dah...

[Octoberist]

I don't recall Nolan wanting to the origin....again.

[Lungrocket]

The villain in this final installment needs to represent the ultimate logical conclusion of all the ideas and themes that Nolan has been building up to this point.

Should the story feel like it belongs with the other two? Absolutely, but as far as theme goes, they can do whatever they want.

I just don't see Blackfire as the logical conclusion to the ideas of BB and TDK.

But then you say this...

I think the idea of a cult leader fits perfectly,

So you agree then? Oh wait, You're not done...

but I think Black Mask would make the better leader. His False Face society is perfectly poised to be a great, epic threat

See the only difference here is, the gimmick. Blackfire is way more complex a character than Black Mask. Now this is just an opinion, but Black Mask is a limp character name. Deacon Blackfire sounds much more intense and creepy.

And Blackfire is a freak, he just doesn't have the scars to show it. But they could just give Deacon a CULT mask for ceremonies, and boom! Gimmick created!

And why do you want the mob as the main focus? We've been there and done that. Have Black Mask run the mob. Thats fine. But he's definitely more of a supporting villain as is the mob.

- it fulfills the idea of the disenfranchised and mentally disturbed of Gotham being attracted to a charismatic leader, while at the same time allowing for a "freak army" - almost a counterpoint to the fake Batmen in TDK. Maybe some of them wear Joker masks. You could even use it as an opportunity to throw in cameos (or simply visual nods - maybe three False Facers bare the visages of the Terrible Trio?)

I'm not seeing how this is deeper than Blackfire. At least he can psychologically twist people's minds, and break their spirit (including Batman) but what does Black Mask offer that's interesting psychologically?

I just think the text of the last two films is too strong to abandon. It sounds like a superficial thing, but I genuinely feel that it's important, thematically, for the final villain to be a "costumed" villain.

It is a superficial thing. Ra's wasn't costumed. He wore a suit. Or a coat. Scarecrow wore a suit. Joker wore a suit. Harvey wore a suit.

[Lungrocket]

Except that the villains in BATMAN BEGINS were a man who leads a secret society of ninjas...and a guy who uses toxin to create fear while dressing in a Scarecrow mask.

Yes, but they weren't as garishly cartoonish as say the Burton or Schumacher interpretations.

And Deacon has a cult (not just a few ninjas) but an entire army of devotees, and if I recall correctly and uses hallucinagenic drugs to create visions, so he works on that same level.

And the villains in THE DARK KNIGHT were a killer clown and a man with half his face and body burned to the point where he shouldn't have been able to survive. Other than the mobsters, Nolan hasn't touched a realistic villain.

Your talking at face value. I am not. Look deeper than that. I am talking more in the fact that Nolan's main villain choices offer something far more human in the way of psychology. Deacon fits into that realm. They have something deeper and more meaningful to say. Deacon fits into that realm. What does Black Mask offer?

[Lungrocket]

Yeah that too. It's not realsm, it a perception of realism that he uses.

I know its not realism. It's really about Nolan trying to make things more "plausible" is the correct term. Nolan just likes to throw the word "realism" around. It's still an apt description though.

He wants these things to appear more grounded so they are percieved as being more believable.

[Lungrocket]

I think the theme might appeal to Nolan, but the character itself may be too on-the-nose (yes, even for Nolan!). He's almost too close to Koresh, without the buffer layer of fantasy.

It'd almost be like Nolan, instead of using Ra's or Joker as a symbol for real world terrorism, simply had Batman fight Osama bin Laden himself.

No actually Ra's was still an echo of terrorism in much the same manor. His visuals cues where on the nose for him being like Osama. Hides out on a mountain. Check. Trying to destroy a NY-like city. Check. A clash of ideals and beliefs. Check.

Deacon Blackfire is also a fictional character, who just so happens to inhabit traits of people like Manson, Koresh, Phelps.

I don't agree with your arguement here at all.

[raybia]

I know its not realism. It's really about Nolan trying to make things more "plausible" is the correct term. Nolan just likes to throw the word "realism" around. It's still an apt description though.

He wants these things to appear more grounded so they are percieved as being more believable.

Well said. I think the phrase verisimilitude comes to mind.

[raybia]

No actually Ra's was still an echo of terrorism in much the same manor. His visuals cues where on the nose for him being like Osama. Hides out on a mountain. Check. Trying to destroy a NY-like city. Check. A clash of ideals and beliefs. Check.

Deacon Blackfire is also a fictional character, who just so happens to inhabit traits of people like Manson, Koresh, Phelps.

I don't agree with your arguement here at all.

If Nolan was to use Blackfire then that interjects the theme of religion or religious extremism into the movie. I wonder if as a filmmaker if Nolan has something he wants to say on the subject. I don't think any of his other movies have touched on this. Nolan seems to like exploring issues of identity and perception. If he stays with this, would the religious piece complement this or be a hinderance?

[Lungrocket]

If Nolan was to use Blackfire then that interjects the theme of religion or religious extremism into the movie.

Yes, and of course I am merely speculating. But to add further fuel to the fire, both Ra's and Joker where deep characters. Both of them, though villainous, offered moral quandries. Not matter how heinous their acts, there was still truth in what they said. I'd expect no less from the next villain Nolan uses.

Thats why I feel Blackfire is a perfect candidate.

I wonder if as a filmmaker if Nolan has something he wants to say on the subject. I don't think any of his other movies have touched on this. Nolan seems to like exploring issues of identity and perception. If he stays with this, would the religious piece complement this or be a hinderance?

Don't know if he does. I have no doubt it could work though. What better way to end his trilogy than on faith. There are no bigger stories than the ones that deal with spirituality. I mean, what's the most famous book on the planet? :cwink:

And before everyone goes off on me about me pushing religion, its not true, as I am an agnostic. :woot: But i do think it makes for some terrific cinematic and epic storytelling. The Indiana Jones Trilogy are some of my favorite films. (not counting Crystal Skull)

[Keyser Soze]

I think it's funny that, according to this latest report, Tom Hardy signed up for the movie without knowing what role he was playing or reading the script. How's that for "I have faith in Nolan"? :)

[raybia]

Yes, and of course I am merely speculating. But to add further fuel to the fire, both Ra's and Joker where deep characters. Both of them, though villainous, offered moral quandries. Not matter how heinous their acts, there was still truth in what they said. I'd expect no less from the next villain Nolan uses.

Thats why I feel Blackfire is a perfect candidate.



Don't know if he does. I have no doubt it could work though. What better way to end his trilogy than on faith. There are no bigger stories than the ones that deal with spirituality. I mean, what's the most famous book on the planet? :cwink:

And before everyone goes off on me about me pushing religion, its not true, as I am an agnostic. :woot: But i do think it makes for some terrific cinematic and epic storytelling. The Indiana Jones Trilogy are some of my favorite films. (not counting Crystal Skull)

Those are all good points, of course one of the biggest themes in today's popular culture is zombies and the zombie apocalypse.

Make Blackfire the leader of a zombie outbreak on Gotham and I'm there.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Batman should struggle with faith, but not of the organized religion type. It's his faith in humanity, in himself, in Gotham City.

I believe in Harvey Dent. I believe in Gotham City. Etc.

Nolan is telling parables about the human spirit. I think bringing in a literal Deacon for him to fight is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

[Lungrocket]

I think it's funny that, according to this latest report, Tom Hardy signed up for the movie without knowing what role he was playing or reading the script. How's that for "I have faith in Nolan"? :)

That is pretty crazy. :woot:

[Nightwing]

Recent pic of Hardy (taken Tuesday) on the set of his new film This Means War.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6770/reesewitherspoontomhard.jpg

[Lungrocket]

Batman should struggle with faith, but not of the organized religion type. It's his faith in humanity, in himself, in Gotham City.

Why not have all those things plus the religious kind. Nolan usually works on multiple levels anyway.

I believe in Harvey Dent. I believe in Gotham City. Etc.

See. Maybe Nolan DOES have a story of faith in him. :cwink:

I think bringing in a literal Deacon for him to fight is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

No more than him fighting a killer clown who causes chaos. :oldrazz:

It's all in the execution.

[Keyser Soze]

Recent pic of Hardy (taken Tuesday) on the set of his new film This Means War.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6770/reesewitherspoontomhard.jpg

Alas, he's not yet bald with a massive Amish beard.

[batman11]

He does look very handsome though.

Any villains we know that are handsome? This could be a big clue.

[Lungrocket]

He does look very handsome though.

Any villains we know that are handsome? This could be a big clue.

and for the win!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B49rvfQPG60/SNoWZijtz7I/AAAAAAAAA3Q/Dt9JTT-PxjI/s400/blackfire.jpg

[batman11]

You think Deacon is handsome? I still can't get over how he was 3rd runner-up sexiest man alive 1998. He didn't even deserve to be in the top 200 if you ask me.

I'd hate to see who else you have on your top 100 handsome men list. :o

[Lungrocket]

You think Deacon is handsome? I still can't get over how he was 3rd runner-up sexiest man alive 1998. He didn't even deserve to be in the top 200 if you ask me.

I'd hate to see who else you have on your top 100 handsome men list. :o

It was a joke. I was being a smartass. And i don't have a handsome men list. I prefer women.

[Sky Captain]

He does look very handsome though.

Any villains we know that are handsome? This could be a big clue.

I've been un-ironically called handsome before. And if I've been called handsome, any of Batman's villains can be considered handsome.

ANY OF THEM.

[Lungrocket]

I've been un-ironically called handsome before. And if I've been called handsome, any of Batman's villains can be considered handsome.

ANY OF THEM.

Right. And even still, doesn't mean he will appear "handsome" as they could potentially ugly Hardy up for whatever the role requires.

His looks aren't a clue towards what part he will be playing.

[batman11]

Wait a second...

...you guys thought I was serious about his looks? I was just working off of Keyser's post in a jokey manner. And then, Lung, you thought that my quip about Deacon and your list was serious as well?

Really? LOL.

I was aware that you were joking and being a smartass. So was I. Get it? :) :woot:

On a more serious note, I know this guy that works wonders with sarcasm detectors. Perhaps you'd like his number?

Please don't hate me. :( :funny:

[Nightwing]

Haha.

[Lungrocket]

Wait a second...

...you guys thought I was serious about his looks? I was just working off of Keyser's post in a jokey manner. And then, Lung, you thought that my quip about Deacon and your list was serious as well?

Really? LOL.

I was aware that you were joking and being a smartass. So was I. Get it? :) :woot:

On a more serious note, I know this guy that works wonders with sarcasm detectors. Perhaps you'd like his number?

Please don't hate me. :( :funny:

:woot: Sometimes sarcasm is hard to detect. My bad. :yay:

[batman11]

:woot: Sometimes sarcasm is hard to detect. My bad. :yay:

I guess you also missed the Tropic Thunder reference too. This is not my day. :( :oldrazz:

[Lungrocket]

I guess you also missed the Tropic Thunder reference too. This is not my day. :( :oldrazz:

Still laughed though. :woot:

[batman11]

Now I feel better. :)

Still crying on the inside. Perhaps you'll join me for a weep. :(

[Bat-Mite]

and for the win!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B49rvfQPG60/SNoWZijtz7I/AAAAAAAAA3Q/Dt9JTT-PxjI/s400/blackfire.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6177/tonylittlegazelle.jpg

[Figs]

^

Hahaha!

[Lungrocket]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6177/tonylittlegazelle.jpg

HAHAHA!

Amusing, but pointless. :cwink: It not like Batman looks like that (a bulking mass) when they translate him to film either.

[Paste Pot Pete]

I'd fancast an early 80s Nature Boy myself -

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g149/wingedfreakterrorizes/flair_mo-champ.jpg

WHOOOO!!

[regwec]

That's uncanny.

[Dark Sentinel]

I guess you also missed the Tropic Thunder reference too. This is not my day. :( :oldrazz:

Don't be sad b11...I got it:woot:

[Boom]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I honestly cannot figure out how Batman can redeem himself for the murder of two cops and a district attorney. That's not something you can exactly rectify.

Honestly, the only realistic resolution I can think of is that somebody comes along that Batman can pass the blame onto. Say... another Batman that isn't afraid to kill... like Hugo Strange. Batman defeats him, and the public believes that they've been blaming the wrong Batman all this time.

No matter who Batman defeats in this film, and no matter what threat he protects Gotham City against, at the end of the day he is still a cop killer in the eyes of the city. The only true way he can find redemption is to clear his name. And since he can't admit Dent killed those people, it has to be something else.

[Majik1387]

:dry:

[HighFivingMF]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I honestly cannot figure out how Batman can redeem himself for the murder of two cops. That's not something you can exactly rectify.
He can save 4 cops! :oldrazz:

[SentinelMind]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I honestly cannot figure out how Batman can redeem himself for the murder of two cops and a district attorney. That's not something you can exactly rectify.

Honestly, the only realistic resolution I can think of is that somebody comes along that Batman can pass the blame onto. Say... another Batman that isn't afraid to kill... like Hugo Strange. Batman defeats him, and the public believes that they've been blaming the wrong Batman all this time.

No matter who Batman defeats in this film, and no matter what threat he protects Gotham City against, at the end of the day he is still a cop killer in the eyes of the city. The only true way he can find redemption is to clear his name. And since he can't admit Dent killed those people, it has to be something else.

I think it could be leaked that they were crooked cops. Maybe an investigation of their premises shows evidence of a corrupt collaboration with mob bosses or they find cocaine on the premises. Not an excuse to kill them, but a huge scandal would city feel more conflicted about their deaths. Either way, I don't anticipate a Spider-Man 3 welcome for Batman in the next film, no matter how it plays out.

[The Guard]

Yes, but they weren't as garishly cartoonish as say the Burton or Schumacher interpretations.

That's because Burton and Schumacher didn't develop them. Chris Nolan did.

But they were still over the top characters. You don't tend to see leaders of ancient ninja cults training superheroes and trying to get a city to tear itself apart through fear gas in the real world, do you?

Nor do you see a single man who dresses like a killer clown and somehow is singlehandedly able to bring a mob and a city to its knees with a few random acts of terrorism. Well...maybe John Wayne Gacy.

Still, these do not tend to be real world elements.

And Deacon has a cult (not just a few ninjas) but an entire army of devotees, and if I recall correctly and uses hallucinagenic drugs to create visions, so he works on that same level.

And thus, you put the final nail in the Deacon Blackfire coffin.

Without total reinvention, he is redundant.

We already saw the cult of followers with Ra's, and saw hallucination causing drugs with both Ra's and The Scarecrow.

As far as the brainwashing goes, Hugo Strange brainwashed Batman long before Deacon Blackfire, and for a more interesting reason.

Your talking at face value. I am not. Look deeper than that. I am talking more in the fact that Nolan's main villain choices offer something far more human in the way of psychology. Deacon fits into that realm. They have something deeper and more meaningful to say. Deacon fits into that realm. What does Black Mask offer?

I am, in fact, not taking it at face value. I don't let anything at face value.

I do not find the fact that Deacon can provide some psychological exploration in the context of a Batman storyline clever, or as something that somehow makes him special.

1, every Batman character offers psychological elements and themes relevant to Batman and the world he operates in.

2, It's become very clear to me that Nolan's not going to delve very deeply into that psychology anyway. He's going to skim the surface of it, and pick a few obvious, albeit elements of a character's thematic relevance to spotlight.

3. I am not, and never have been, advocating for Black Mask to be a lead villain in this franchise, but were he to become one:

-He also has a "cult" of sorts (arguably a far more interesting one, and definitely one more thematically and story relevant to Nolan's franchise)

-Some serious parental issues, and is sort of a more psychotic version of the Penguin.

-He's enough of a loose cannot that he can use a number of different methods, a la The Joker, and it will fit with his character.

Ra's Al Ghul has always been a terrorist. That's not some clever thing Nolan made up. That's what the character has always been.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I honestly cannot figure out how Batman can redeem himself for the murder of two cops. That's not something you can exactly rectify.

He could have one of those cheesy 80's or 90's movie scenes where he admits he lied about something, and how he learned his lesson.

You've got to love the brilliance of having Batman and Gordon blame Batman for the crimes of Harvey Dent. Why make Gotham worry about what's happening to its people when you can whitewash it and reduce its significance to everyone except Batman and Gordon?

Sigh.

[Boom]

I just think about how ballsy it would have been if there was no cover-up , and everybody knew Dent committed the murders. Not only does the villain (The Joker) win in the end, but **** would absolutely hit the fan in the third film. It' would've been glorious.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Yeah, I can't figure out a single satisfying way to clear Batman's name.

Nolan must have one though; I really doubt he would paint himself into such a corner without an out. I'm really curious to find out how he does it.

[Octoberist]

I've always thought about making Batman more...Shakespearian in this one. Where he's absent but Bruce is growing antsy, wanting to be Batman again.

But you're right, I don't know how they can clear his name WITHOUT a Scap Goat. I don't think Bruce would do that.

[batman11]

I just think about how ballsy it would have been if there was no cover-up , and everybody knew Dent committed the murders. Not only does the villain (The Joker) win in the end, but **** would absolutely hit the fan in the third film. It' would've been glorious.

I would say it's just as ballsy to have your hero take the fall on behalf of the villain, essentially making the further outcasting and rejection of the hero entirely his decision. We have a Batman who is willing to hide the truth from his city, put his own ass further on the line, and subsequently has to deal with the repercussions (both literally and emotionally) of harbouring a secret of such magnitude. We also get to deal with Gordon facing a similar struggle. It might be interesting to get some scenes of him in TDKR where he almost loses it, and feels that it's just too much to keep the lie intact. He cares more about Bats' well-being that Bats cares about himself. Could be really cool.

I do like your post and idea though. I'm not knocking it. It think it would have also been a neat direction, and equally as ballsy. It would've opened up doors that TDK's ending shut, whereas TDK's ending opens up its own, separate doors. Either way, I think the Nolans crafted a situation for TDK's ending that is not only pretty unconventional for a superhero film, but it also allows for some great insight into further trying to figure out who Bruce is and what his motivation and end-goal is. Of course, this will come with the continuing development of his arc in TDKR.

[Octoberist]

Tom Hardy..is a handsome fellow isn't he? :p

[Bat-Mite]

I'd hit it.

[Majik1387]

I know I would.:up:

[Octoberist]

Look at them pouty lips of his. Rivals Emily Browning!

[raybia]

Do u know how I know u guys are gay?

[raybia]

Do u know how I know u guys are gay?

[HighFivingMF]

Do u know how I know u guys are gay?
Because you're gay? And you can tell who other gay people are?


Seth Rogen's delivery of that line gets me every time.

[raybia]

Because you're gay? And you can tell who other gay people are?


Seth Rogen's delivery of that line gets me every time.

No because u like coldplay.:oldrazz:

[Dark Sentinel]

Do u know how I know u guys are gay?

Because you like MANakin Skywalker.

[batman11]

Can we just stop with the insults and go back to talking about Tom's pouty lips?

K thanks. :) :o

[Majik1387]

Do u know how I know u guys are gay?
Because I am gay. :huh:

[Dark Sentinel]

Can we just stop with the insults and go back to talking about Tom's pouty lips?

K thanks. :) :o

Tom does have great pouty lips.


No homo.

[Octoberist]

pouty, pouty!

[raybia]

Because I am gay. :huh:

Not there is anything wrong with that.

[Doctor Who]

Tom Hardy..is a handsome fellow isn't he? :p

Sadly, a big man crush...... :oldrazz:






God I miss Heath. :csad:

[HighFivingMF]

Because I am gay. :huh:
Hmmm. Nope, that's not it. :oldrazz:

[Doctor Who]

Tom does have great pouty lips.


No homo.

Not pouty: Tom Hardy has been blessed with Jesus lips.

[raybia]

Anyway back on topic. I cannot wait for the big physical climax at the end of the movie between Bale and Hardy. Yum

[RachelDawes]

I've always thought about making Batman more...Shakespearian in this one. Where he's absent but Bruce is growing antsy, wanting to be Batman again.

But you're right, I don't know how they can clear his name WITHOUT a Scap Goat. I don't think Bruce would do that.

Maybe Strange will die at the end and Batman won't feel so bad about a dead man taking the blame. Or it could be that the public will draw their own conclusions from Strange imitating Batman. Bruce wouldn't be able to do much about that.

[Dark Sentinel]

Anyway back on topic. I cannot wait for the big physical climax at the end of the movie between Bale and Hardy. Yum

I'm starting to worry about you raybia...

[Bat-Mite]

Anyway back on topic. I cannot wait for the big physical climax at the end of the movie between Bale and Hardy. YumI'm sure they'll really be pounding each other and working up a sweat.

[Dark Sentinel]

I'm sure they'll really be pounding each other and working up a sweat.

http://l.yimg.com/l/im_siggHI0gm0WLgUJD9deH1kIJuA---y626/tv/us/img/site/20/09/0000062009_20091008153811.jpg

Gay-gay-gaygaygay you are GAAAAAYYYY!!!!


:oldrazz:

[Happy Jack]

Yeah, I can't figure out a single satisfying way to clear Batman's name.

Nolan must have one though; I really doubt he would paint himself into such a corner without an out. I'm really curious to find out how he does it.
I don't think he has to clear his name, honestly. Batman as a symbol in some ways represents something more than the normal ideas of good and evil, which is what Batman not being a hero but being something more was about. The trick would be for Batman to end film 3 on a high, triumphant note, which I think could be done without undoing the ending to TDK.

[raybia]

I'm starting to worry about you raybia...

Time to take a break from the Hype.:csad:

[Bat-Mite]

http://l.yimg.com/l/im_siggHI0gm0WLgUJD9deH1kIJuA---y626/tv/us/img/site/20/09/0000062009_20091008153811.jpg

Gay-gay-gaygaygay you are GAAAAAYYYY!!!!


:oldrazz:Of course I am. Why, the first time I became interested in Batman was when I saw a picture of the Joker riding a giant... well.. you know... http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3734/detective33204.jpg

[raybia]

I don't think he has to clear his name, honestly. Batman as a symbol in some ways represents something more than the normal ideas of good and evil, which is what Batman not being a hero but being something more was about. The trick would be for Batman to end film 3 on a high, triumphant note, which I think could be done without undoing the ending to TDK.

Exactly. Who says he has to be cleared. Its not like Nolan's Batman goes on to become Adam West's Batman.

[Solidus]

I can't wait for this to be announced. I'm thinking Bane, Hush, Black Mask. Lots of possibilities.

[Dark Sentinel]

I like Black Mask and Hush as possibilities, though Hush I think is a little too recent to be used in a film. Still like it though.

[Dark Sentinel]

Oh, and welcome back Solid!

[Octoberist]

I kinda like Black Mask for the potential of corporate kidnappings and espionage.

Now if BLACK MASK's..mask is burnt onto his face, they can have him 'emote' by making the mask a series of plates like Batman's suit in The Dark Knight. So along the jaw, he can move his mouth due to the spacing in-between the plates. If that were case, of course.

[Boom]

Maybe Strange will die at the end and Batman won't feel so bad about a dead man taking the blame. Or it could be that the public will draw their own conclusions from Strange imitating Batman. Bruce wouldn't be able to do much about that.
There you go :up:.

[Boom]

I don't think he has to clear his name, honestly.
So I guess we wouldn't get a new bat signal then.

[Bat-Mite]

So I guess we wouldn't get a new bat signal then.:csad: That would suck.

[Octoberist]

I never thought about that...crap you're right!

[batman11]

I think Gordon could still put up a signal. I think we can all agree that in one way or another, there will be some redemption for Bats in TDKR. Whether that means a full resolution in the eyes of the people of Gotham or not, I can see the Nolans working something in where the view on Batman is still very much divided. His name could be cleared, yet in a questionable way, making it possible for people to still believe him to be a cop killer, yet others could embrace what they hear and learn to see him as a hero. This could tie nicely into the idea of faith, and testing one's faith: what are you willing to believe? More specifically, what are you willing to believe in when the facts aren't black and white? Did you believe in Harvey Dent? Do you believe in Batman? Do you believe in Gordon? By creating this split, we leave room for Bats to straddle the fence in the eyes of the public, the cops, etc. (As a side note, it would be kind of neat to have a little sub-plot revolving around how some of Batman's most devoted followers believe that the whole thing with Dent is a conspiracy. I'm sure that would fall more along the lines of a viral though. It would be cool though, to see opinions opposite ends of the spectrum regarding the coverup, especially if we had some citizens actually thinking it was indeed a coverup. Of course, these are extreme citizens. :woot:)

If we think back to Begins, Gordon put up the signal even though Loeb had the force on Bats' case. The cops weren't exactly welcoming (why should they be? Bats totally busted them up during the chase. LOL), yet Gordon went against the grain and tried to forge some sort of relationship. We never saw how the cops reacted to that, but fast forward a year, and some of Gordon's closest cops go along with working with Batman. Anyhow, little bit of a tangent. So, the signal was destroyed in TDK because Bats was just painted completely as the enemy. Even if not "fully" redeemed in the eyes of Gotham, I can see Gordon putting back up the signal like he did in Begins. A nice mirror, he returns the signal that he destroyed, showcasing that Batman is here, he seems to want to help, and we have to deal with it. We have to do the best we can with what he have. Killer or not, Batman has fought for us. Whether you like it or not is up to you Gotham. Do you believe in Batman?

I know a lot of that can be seen as contradictory, but I'm not writing the story. LOL. Let Jonah and Chris come up with a way to make this all work.

[raybia]

So I guess we wouldn't get a new bat signal then.

Signal? We don't need no stinkin signal!

[bullets]

It wouldn't make sense for there to be a signal at the beginning but it should be part of the ending.

[Doctor Who]

I can't wait for this to be announced. I'm thinking Bane, Hush, Black Mask. Lots of possibilities.

Those are whom I'm thinking too; I'm also thinking Strange or Deadshot too.

[hegele]

i think i am at the point where announcements of any villain in the film will surprise me. We all knew The Joker was going to be in TDK, and it wasn't a huge surprise when Harvey Dent was in the running. Here though, my God... who knows?

[The Demon's Head]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they introduced Catwoman as the female villain, and Talia as the love interest, and then towards the ending, Catwoman becomes Batman's ally, while Talia is revealed as a villain?

Food for thought.

[Bat-Mite]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they introduced Catwoman as the female villain, and Talia as the love interest, and then towards the ending, Catwoman becomes Batman's ally, while Talia is revealed as a villain?

Food for thought.Talia IS Catwoman. :awesome:

[BareYourTeeth]

I can't wait for this to be announced. I'm thinking Bane, Hush, Black Mask. Lots of possibilities.

I've got the list narrowed down to Hugo Strange, Catwoman, Deadshot, Black Mask, and Rupert Thorne.

EDIT:The list above is, IMO, the villain(s) we will most likely be seeing in TDKR not the character Hardy will be playing(I obviously don't think Hardy will be playing Catwoman or even Thorne for that matter).

[AllyBabble]

Ras Al Ghul, Scarecrow, Two-Face, Joker....all guys with beards, masks, make-up and burnt faces who below the neck just wear suits....something tells me we are not going to get another villan in a suit with a mask, he is going to go for something different this time with the lead male villan.
Some things you just can't imagine, 'Zach Snyder's Superman starring Bradon Routh' is one, 'The Dark Knight Rises new villan is....Black Mask' is another.
I think he will use Hardy for either Bane or Killer Croc, someone who is a physical threat to Batman, and who will sport a different look from the rent a suit brigade. A villan whose look is dependant on his physical bulk. I would be very happy with either of those villans.

and I don't think Mark Millar is full of it when it came to his line about the new villan being someone he grew up reading who he was surprised to see included. I just don't think the guy would bs about knowing, there's something believable about what he said about that. So, final guess is Croc, as he was presented in his original appearances, a smart scary guy with a skin condition who used to wrestle alligators, can beat BM in a fair physical fight and is manouvering his way to taking over the mobs. I guess he will go back to those comics much in the same way he did with the Joker's 1st appearance, and Croc was never better than in that first arc.

[CrypticOne]

It wouldn't make sense for there to be a signal at the beginning but it should be part of the ending.

Agreed.

[Nightwing]

It wouldn't make sense for there to be a signal at the beginning but it should be part of the ending.
Definitely.

[Keyser Soze]

Some things you just can't imagine, 'Zach Snyder's Superman starring Bradon Routh' is one, 'The Dark Knight Rises new villan is....Black Mask' is another.
I think he will use Hardy for either Bane or Killer Croc, someone who is a physical threat to Batman, and who will sport a different look from the rent a suit brigade. A villan whose look is dependant on his physical bulk. I would be very happy with either of those villans.

Black Mask is not my top choice to be the villain in the film. But he's certainly one of the more likely choices, and I'd say his presence in the film is very easy to imagine. Certainly easier than Tom Hardy playing Bane or Killer Croc.

Tom Hardy is about 5'9". Despite his proven ability to bulk up for physical roles, I don't see gigantic behomoths like Bane or Killer Croc as likely choices for him to play. Especially when you consider that Bane is Caribbean and Killer Croc is African-American.

[The Demon's Head]

If Black Mask is indeed the movie's main villain, he needs to be almost completely revamped. The comics' Black Mask isn't a very compelling villain, mostly due to poor writing, which is unfortunate, because on the page, he sounds like a villain that could have been MUCH more interesting. For instance, outside of his first apperances, the parellels between him and Batman were explored, and his backstory as an old friend of Bruce Wayne was forgotten.

He CAN be an interesting villain in the hands of a director like Nolan, but they need to tweak the character quite a bit.

[MechaOrga]

If Black Mask is indeed the movie's main villain, he needs to be almost completely revamped. The comics' Black Mask isn't a very compelling villain, mostly due to poor writing, which is unfortunate, because on the page, he sounds like a villain that could have been MUCH more interesting. For instance, outside of his first apperances, the parellels between him and Batman were explored, and his backstory as an old friend of Bruce Wayne was forgotten.

He CAN be an interesting villain in the hands of a director like Nolan, but they need to tweak the character quite a bit.

agree.

I dont put it past nolan to revamp or combine characters either. Black mask combines with Hush's backstory would make the character better...

even having bane but with more of a dead shot personality would be great as well(but keeping Banes secret to run the underworld of gotham)...

characters should be tweaked if they lack in any department IMO...

[returntovoid]

Tom Hardy could also be David Cain besides Black Mask or Deadshot.

[Dark Knight]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they introduced Catwoman as the female villain, and Talia as the love interest, and then towards the ending, Catwoman becomes Batman's ally, while Talia is revealed as a villain?

Food for thought.





I could definitely see something like that.

[AllyBabble]

Black Mask is not my top choice to be the villain in the film. But he's certainly one of the more likely choices, and I'd say his presence in the film is very easy to imagine. Certainly easier than Tom Hardy playing Bane or Killer Croc.

Tom Hardy is about 5'9". Despite his proven ability to bulk up for physical roles, I don't see gigantic behomoths like Bane or Killer Croc as likely choices for him to play. Especially when you consider that Bane is Caribbean and Killer Croc is African-American.

I don't think that the ethnicity of those characters is important at all, and would not factor in Nolan's casting desicion. I don't even think about Bane's nationality when reading Knightfall, he just looks like a well built caucasian guy in the books, and Croc's skin condition is so pronounced in the artwork as to make his ethnicity impossible to determine beyond big lizard man.

I don't know, I'm just going with a gut feeling and that says that Black Mask will not be the villan in TDKR^(i am adding that little arrow thing to distinguish the abbreviation from the Miller book, my all-knowing gut feeling tells me this will not catch on).

[The Demon's Head]

I really wanted Bane to be TDKR's main villain, but it looks unlikely, considering the fact Jett claims the villain is a character that hasn't appeared on screen before, and Bane appeared in B &R.

[Keyser Soze]

I don't think that the ethnicity of those characters is important at all, and would not factor in Nolan's casting desicion. I don't even think about Bane's nationality when reading Knightfall, he just looks like a well built caucasian guy in the books, and Croc's skin condition is so pronounced in the artwork as to make his ethnicity impossible to determine beyond big lizard man.

I don't know, I'm just going with a gut feeling and that says that Black Mask will not be the villan in TDKR^(i am adding that little arrow thing to distinguish the abbreviation from the Miller book, my all-knowing gut feeling tells me this will not catch on).

Yes, the Croc of the comics is green-skinned and reptilian, so his ethnicity isn't really clear anymore. But you talked about going back to the character's early comics appearances, and in those he was quite clearly a black man with a skin condition.

Bane's ethnicity may not seem like a big deal, Croc's either. But remember the major backlash that The Last Airbender got even before the film was released, largely based around the scandal of "whitewashing" - taking minority characters and having them be played by white actors. This is the kind of thing that a lot of people don't look on kindly, and casting a white actor to play a traditionally black or Hispanic role could get Nolan a lot of negative publicity before a single frame of the movie is shot.

[AllyBabble]

Yes, the Croc of the comics is green-skinned and reptilian, so his ethnicity isn't really clear anymore. But you talked about going back to the character's early comics appearances, and in those he was quite clearly a black man with a skin condition.

I read those books when they came out and i still have them, and his African American ethnicity did/does not register with me, he just looks like a big guy with reptilian skin all over.
About the only point in the story where you could maybe make a claim to his ethnicity being clearly marked out as AA is in the flashbacks to his childhood, where I think there are a couple of other AA kids hanging around in the background with him, but even then I may be mistaken in recalling that detail.
Again, I just don't think it was clearly stated or important.
edit: ok, i just checked, there are 3 white kids and one black kid bullying him in the fb, and no ref to his ethnicity.
I think his lizard skin is so pronounced that asking someone from looks what ethnicity he was is tantamount to expecting someone to realise the Thing is caucasian under all of those rocks. In other words he could be any ethnicity under that lizard skin from looks alone and it is not reffered to in the story.
It also has no impact on his tale of woe, as the predudice he encounters, beatings from police and bullying stems from his lizard like skin condition, and his penchant for trouble stems from both this and an untamed childhood due to being raised by an alcoholic aunt, not from being beaten by cops or bullied because he was AA. So an actor of any ethnicity could slip into the role with no bumps in the story.


Bane's ethnicity may not seem like a big deal, Croc's either. But remember the major backlash that The Last Airbender got even before the film was released, largely based around the scandal of "whitewashing" - taking minority characters and having them be played by white actors. This is the kind of thing that a lot of people don't look on kindly, and casting a white actor to play a traditionally black or Hispanic role could get Nolan a lot of negative publicity before a single frame of the movie is shot.

Ras Al Ghul is from the middle East and they had a caucasian irish guy on the job right? I don't think anyone would blink if he cast a white guy in the role of Croc. No big deal with MCD as Kingpin in DD either. I don't know much about TLA tv show or movie at all, but that seemed like a bit of an isolated case in regards to that kind of ongoing controvesy.

[Happy Jack]

I think Gordon could still put up a signal. I think we can all agree that in one way or another, there will be some redemption for Bats in TDKR. Whether that means a full resolution in the eyes of the people of Gotham or not, I can see the Nolans working something in where the view on Batman is still very much divided. His name could be cleared, yet in a questionable way, making it possible for people to still believe him to be a cop killer, yet others could embrace what they hear and learn to see him as a hero. This could tie nicely into the idea of faith, and testing one's faith: what are you willing to believe? More specifically, what are you willing to believe in when the facts aren't black and white? Did you believe in Harvey Dent? Do you believe in Batman? Do you believe in Gordon? By creating this split, we leave room for Bats to straddle the fence in the eyes of the public, the cops, etc. (As a side note, it would be kind of neat to have a little sub-plot revolving around how some of Batman's most devoted followers believe that the whole thing with Dent is a conspiracy. I'm sure that would fall more along the lines of a viral though. It would be cool though, to see opinions opposite ends of the spectrum regarding the coverup, especially if we had some citizens actually thinking it was indeed a coverup. Of course, these are extreme citizens. :woot:)

If we think back to Begins, Gordon put up the signal even though Loeb had the force on Bats' case. The cops weren't exactly welcoming (why should they be? Bats totally busted them up during the chase. LOL), yet Gordon went against the grain and tried to forge some sort of relationship. We never saw how the cops reacted to that, but fast forward a year, and some of Gordon's closest cops go along with working with Batman. Anyhow, little bit of a tangent. So, the signal was destroyed in TDK because Bats was just painted completely as the enemy. Even if not "fully" redeemed in the eyes of Gotham, I can see Gordon putting back up the signal like he did in Begins. A nice mirror, he returns the signal that he destroyed, showcasing that Batman is here, he seems to want to help, and we have to deal with it. We have to do the best we can with what he have. Killer or not, Batman has fought for us. Whether you like it or not is up to you Gotham. Do you believe in Batman?

I know a lot of that can be seen as contradictory, but I'm not writing the story. LOL. Let Jonah and Chris come up with a way to make this all work.
That's basically what I had in mind. It's not full redemption, but it's enough that Gordon can defy Batman's detractors and re-install the signal (he's chief of police, after all). One way to make it easier to handle would be to set the sequel years after TDK, so that the stigma surrounding Batman is still around but the hatred isn't as fresh. You could even do a Dark Knight Returns-type of scenario and have Batman be inactive for that length of time.

[Excelsior.]

Why does Batman need redemption? He is innocent. We as the audience know that.

[The Guard]

Maybe he needs to redeem himself for killing Harvey Dent.

[namtaB]

Why does Batman need redemption? He is innocent. We as the audience know that.

Exactly. The audience knows he's a hero. Its not imperative that Gotham needs to know that. However, it shouldn't be left that the public believes Batman is a murderer either. Someone mentioned this before and I agree that Gotham should be left with ambivalent feelings towards Batman. But the audience will always be left knowing that Batman is the hero.

[The Demon's Head]

Batman needs to be redeemed in the eyes of Gotham's citizens, and possibly in the audience's eyes, because he took quite a fall in TDK. The Joker won by bringing down Gotham's White Knight, forcing Batman to unitentionally kill Dent.

[Octoberist]

Why does Batman need redemption? He is innocent. We as the audience know that.

The audience knows that...but what about the GCPD and the citizens of Gotham?

[Happy Jack]

Batman needs to be redeemed in the eyes of Gotham's citizens, and possibly in the audience's eyes, because he took quite a fall in TDK. The Joker won by bringing down Gotham's White Knight, forcing Batman to unitentionally kill Dent.
No. We know Batman is a good guy, if anything his sacrifice should only make us like him more, because he is willing to disgrace himself to save Gotham. And again, I don't get why some are saying that Batman needs to be redeemed in the eyes of the public, as if there is no other option in the story. You are not the screenwriter, who's to say that that's the only viable narrative outcome?

[The Demon's Head]

Perhaps "Redeemed" was the wrong word to use. What I meant to say is that Batman needs to metaphorically "Rise" after the events of TDK. The Joker won, and Batman lost the fight in the previous movie. Sure, he saved the people on the ferries and The Joker was caught, but the price came with Harvey Dent's life.

[Dark Sentinel]

Perhaps "Redeemed" was the wrong word to use. What I meant to say is that Batman needs to metaphorically "Rise" after the events of TDK. The Joker won, and Batman lost the fight in the previous movie. Sure, he saved the people on the ferries and The Joker was caught, but the price came with Harvey Dent's life.

Very good point :up:

[Wolverine1988]

What could Batman have done to really save Dent from going insanse and eventually leading to his death?

If were gonna give blame, it would fall on Gordon, Dent warned him that a couple cops in his unit were suspect and Gordon didn't seem to take that advice, and as a result it led to Rachel being blown up and Dent going insane.

Dents/Two Face main gripe i felt was with Gordon, thus why he snatched his family and held them at gun point, Batman was guilty by association

[Keyser Soze]

What could Batman have done to really save Dent from going insanse and eventually leading to his death?

If were gonna give blame, it would fall on Gordon, Dent warned him that a couple cops in his unit were suspect and Gordon didn't seem to take that advice, and as a result it led to Rachel being blown up and Dent going insane.

Dents/Two Face main gripe i felt was with Gordon, thus why he snatched his family and held them at gun point, Batman was guilty by association

How's this for a kicker, though? Remember that The Joker made Batman choose to save either Rachel Dawes or Harvey Dent. He chose Rachel, choosing selfishly instead of for the good of Gotham. But because The Joker had done a switcheroo, Batman ended up saving (and in the process, destroying) Harvey Dent instead. If he'd chosen to save Harvey, he'd have saved Rachel and Harvey would have died a hero.... instead of living to become the villain.

[The Demon's Head]

Well, based on Gordon's escalation argument, you could blame Batman for drawing out costumed freaks like The Joker in the first place. Bruce pretty much blamed himself for Rachel's death, thinking he inspire The Joker.

[Asteroid-Man]

How's this for a kicker, though? Remember that The Joker made Batman choose to save either Rachel Dawes or Harvey Dent. He chose Rachel, choosing selfishly instead of for the good of Gotham. But because The Joker had done a switcheroo, Batman ended up saving (and in the process, destroying) Harvey Dent instead. If he'd chosen to save Harvey, he'd have saved Rachel and Harvey would have died a hero.... instead of living to become the villain.
:up: Which is exactly why The Dark Knight was soooooooooooooooo awesome! :woot:


Haha, also remember that Joker had two objectives: Making Batman break his one rule and showing Gotham that everyone can become just as crazy as him, including Gotham's white knight. He also told Batman that Gotham would cast him out like a leper... all of this happened. Batman lost.

[regwec]

How's this for a kicker, though? Remember that The Joker made Batman choose to save either Rachel Dawes or Harvey Dent. He chose Rachel, choosing selfishly instead of for the good of Gotham. But because The Joker had done a switcheroo, Batman ended up saving (and in the process, destroying) Harvey Dent instead. If he'd chosen to save Harvey, he'd have saved Rachel and Harvey would have died a hero.... instead of living to become the villain.
The Joker of TDK had infallible foresight and general omniscience. It was only turned on its head when he underestimated the finer points of human nature during the boat sequence. I don't know whether I love that or hate it.

[Happy Jack]

Well, based on Gordon's escalation argument, you could blame Batman for drawing out costumed freaks like The Joker in the first place. Bruce pretty much blamed himself for Rachel's death, thinking he inspire The Joker.
Well, yeah. None of it would have happened if Bruce didn't decide to become Batman, he ultimately was the cause of it all and he was the one who shouldered the consequences.

[Lungrocket]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they introduced Catwoman as the female villain, and Talia as the love interest, and then towards the ending, Catwoman becomes Batman's ally, while Talia is revealed as a villain?

Food for thought.

Yep. I said this twice in the sequel info hunters thread yesterday myself.

[Keyser Soze]

The Joker of TDK had infallible foresight and general omniscience. It was only turned on its head when he underestimated the finer points of human nature during the boat sequence. I don't know whether I love that or hate it.

I love that The Joker in TDK was like an onion with all these layers. And that the omniscient, primal force of chaos that many think lies at the core was in fact only the second-last layer. At his very core, as demonstrated by that ending, he is ultimately just a small, petty man who wants everyone to be as miserable and rotten as he is.

[regwec]

Who here has read Conrad's "The Secret Agent"? I think there is something about The Professor's fear and loathing of the decency and normality of the masses that is borrowed by TDK's Joker.

[The Joker]

TDK's Joker was inspired by The Killing Joke. Instead of just trying to push one man over the edge, the Joker in TDK try to do it to all of Gotham.

[regwec]

Well, the plot was basically lifted from The Joker's first appearance, but I was talking more generally about The Joker's character.

[Figs]

The Joker of TDK had infallible foresight and general omniscience. It was only turned on its head when he underestimated the finer points of human nature during the boat sequence. I don't know whether I love that or hate it.

Part of me wishes one of the boats blew up. As far as I'm concerned, due to it being set up by the Joker, I always believed that the detonator each boat got was for their own boat and not the other. That would be a huge laugh factor for the Joker, that or either detonator blows up both boats.

[The Joker]

Joker was going to blow them both up anyway. "You can't rely on anyone these days, you've got to do everything yourself, don't we? That's ok, I came prepared. It's a funny world we live in".

And reg, I was talking about his specific plot to prove that everyone was like him.

Batman: "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone"


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/JokerTKJTDK.jpg

[Figs]

Joker was going to blow them both up anyway. "You can't rely on anyone these days, you've got to do everything yourself, don't we? That's ok, I came prepared. It's a funny world we live in".

How does that imply that he was in fact going to blow both of them up and maybe not just one of them?

[Bat-Mite]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he warned the ferries at the start of the whole thing that if neither of them pressed the button, he'd blow both ferries up.

[marvelrobbins]

Does any others think Tom Hardy Is playing Black Mask who Is moving to take control of Gotham and the female villian Is Talia and Black mask could be doing her bidding.Like how
in Begins the Scarecrow and falcone were paws of Ra's.I could easily see a love triangle
between Bruce,Talia,and the other love Intrest(Original character,Julie Madsion,another from
the comic books) and people would think Black mask Is the film's villian only to discover he
Is pawn of Talia.

[Octoberist]

The only problem is that you don't want to rethread Batman Begins.

[childeroland]

Who here has read Conrad's "The Secret Agent"? I think there is something about The Professor's fear and loathing of the decency and normality of the masses that is borrowed by TDK's Joker.

Maybe, though Conrad's Professor seems a bit too ineffectual and fearful, a bit of a poser, to succeed as a terrorist, compared to the Joker's near-complete mastery of his world.

[Solidus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he warned the ferries at the start of the whole thing that if neither of them pressed the button, he'd blow both ferries up.

Yea he says, if none of you presses it...."you all die." I'm pretty sure that means both ferries.

[The Joker]

How does that imply that he was in fact going to blow both of them up and maybe not just one of them?

I believe these two gentlemen answered this nicely:

Actually, I'm pretty sure he warned the ferries at the start of the whole thing that if neither of them pressed the button, he'd blow both ferries up.

Yea he says, if none of you presses it...."you all die." I'm pretty sure that means both ferries.

[Doctor Who]

Joker was going to blow them both up anyway. "You can't rely on anyone these days, you've got to do everything yourself, don't we? That's ok, I came prepared. It's a funny world we live in".

And reg, I was talking about his specific plot to prove that everyone was like him.

Batman: "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone"


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/Jokerfan1980/JokerTKJTDK.jpg

Nice referance; TDK is very faithful to TKJ in any aspects, and even more than we realize. :hrt:

[Figs]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he warned the ferries at the start of the whole thing that if neither of them pressed the button, he'd blow both ferries up.

Yea he says, if none of you presses it...."you all die." I'm pretty sure that means both ferries.

Totally forgot about that line. :doh:

[Excelsior.]

Batman needs to be redeemed in the eyes of Gotham's citizensBatman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.

[The Joker]

Batman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.

Yep. Opinion has at best been mixed in Gotham regarding Batman.

[Excelsior.]

Maybe he needs to redeem himself for killing Harvey Dent.

He did, by taking the fall for Harvey's murders.

[The Joker]

He still has to redeem himself for blowing away a bunch of ninjas in the Himalayas.

[Gianakin_]

Batman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.

That's true, however perceiving him as a killer shouldn't be the case, imo.

[returntovoid]

Batman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.

Exactly, Batman needs to be perceived as a freak/psycho in order to be mysterious and intimidating.

[Excelsior.]

He still has to redeem himself for blowing away a bunch of ninjas in the Himalayas.:up:

[Boom]

Watch.

Hardy will be Hugo Strange, but he won't be bald and have an Amish beard.

[HighFivingMF]

Watch.

Hardy will be Hugo Strange, but he won't be bald and have an Amish beard.
That would look hilarious on Hardy. :awesome:

[GarzaUK]

Batman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.


What about that Batman and Robin celebration party Gothan City threw in Batman and Robin? Batman credit card! :awesome:

[AllyBabble]

Watch.

Hardy will be Hugo Strange, but he won't be bald and have an Amish beard.

You might be onto something there, they could use parts of 'Prey'(which in turn used elements of the Marshall Rogers/Engleheart run), which featured Catwoman and the plotline of Batman being violently pursued by the police.
I can see him as a buff Hugo Strange dressing up in the Batman costume, the wannabe BM wanting to get into his head and screw him up when he is at his weakest, and also figuring out his secret identity but being too proud of his achievement to give it up to anyone else.

[Boom]

That would look hilarious on Hardy. :awesome:
More like awesome :up:.

[The Demon's Head]

Hugo Strange is the best fit for the themes already established in Nolan's Bat-Films.

I could see them using Black Mask instead, but they'll need to tweak his chracter A LOT. I'd introduce The False Face Society as a cult controling Gotham's underworld. Black Mask will obviously be their leader, and the Freaks will follow him. Taking it even further, I think Roman Sionis should be introduced as the complete opposite of the "Playboy" Bruce Wayne. He'll be a rich businessman, who is also an Philanthropist and a political activist, donating to various charities, etc. He'll also use his political connections to lobby the city against Batman, while strengthing his own position in the city.

[souvlaki]

I am REALLY warming up to the idea of Hardy as Hugo Strange. Englehart and Rogers' run on Batman is probably my favorite writer/artist team-up ever, and Batman and the Monster Men is in my opinion the best Batman story in the last five years so there is plenty of good material for them to draw from.

[Doctor Who]

More like awesome :up:.

http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tom-hardy-charles-bronson.jpg

Well, he's already 2/3 there. :word:




The more I think about it now, I can see Hardy forcing women to make love to Him wearing a Batman mask. LOL Bane's still my first choice.

[Jack]

Hardy for Bane...hell...even Deadshot.....just no Hugo Strange.
:doh:

[souvlaki]

Hardy for Bane...hell...even Deadshot.....just no Hugo Strange.
:doh:

Why? I get the impression that people knocking Hugo Strange are doing so because of his name and not because of any real knowledge of the character. I'd love for someone to point to a Bane or Deadshot storyline that is better than even the worst Hugo Strange story (of which there really aren't many bad ones, and none in post-crisis to my knowledge).

[StorminNorman]

Batman has never been popular with the Gothamites. He never will.

I don't think you can necessarily defend that statement in the source material.

Furthermore I don't like a Batman that's not popular with Gothamites. Being popular amongst law abiding citizens is kinda, IMO, important to the character of Batman.

I think it's only Frank Miller's idiotic over-the-top psycho Batman that doesnt' jibe with a cities conscious.