Spidey never actually defeated Ock once

[Kevin Roegele]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."

[SpideyLad]

That sucks......

[Joker]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax

The biggest sin of all in that movie.

Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."

LOL!

Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:

[Kevin Roegele]

The biggest sin of all in that movie.

Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.



LOL!

Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:

In real life, 'violence is not the answer' is an admirable opinion. In movies, especially action movies, especially movies based on characters who have been solving problems with violence for over forty years, yes, violence does solve problems.

[TheSlag]

The bigger crime/sin was Ock not biatch-slapping Spidey in their first encounter. :down

[Kipobe]

He beat Ock with his words.

Haha.

[TheVileOne]

The biggest sin of all in that movie.

Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.



LOL!

Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:

Yeah and what did that solve? It just made him even more distant with his best friend causing Harry to hate his alter-ego and pledge to get revenge. It racked him with guilt and caused him to isolate himself from his loved ones.

So no, it didn't solve anything.

I don't see what's wrong with Raimi expressing this opinion, I don't see how it hurt the movies.

Spider-man did defeat Doctor Octopus. He defeated him by making peace and acceptance with himself. By doing this, Doctor Octopus was no longer a threat.

If violence and ACTION is all you guys care about, I'd say having the tentacles stab the electric wires and zapping him was a pretty sound defeat.

[TheSlag]

:rolleyes: It's sad that you really don't have a clue on this one do you VileOne.

Perhaps in the next one, Harry can forgive Peter, and Sandy and Spidey can go to counseling to learn to talk out their differences.

[Joker]

Yeah and what did that solve? It just made him even more distant with his best friend causing Harry to hate his alter-ego and pledge to get revenge. It racked him with guilt and caused him to isolate himself from his loved ones.

So no, it didn't solve anything.

That's what's SUPPOSED to happen.

You ever hear of a famous story where Harry becomes GG2?? It's in these things called Spider-Man comics.You should really read a few some time.You might understand why some people don't like Raimi's "artistic" changes.

Violence is the only way Spider-Man can defeat most of his major enemies.Not giving them speeches about being selfless and decent :rolleyes:


I don't see what's wrong with Raimi expressing this opinion, I don't see how it hurt the movies.

And this is why you are absolutely clueless of practically all things Spider-Man IMO. Raimi's opinions have made a mess of several very important Spidey elements.

Spider-man did defeat Doctor Octopus. He defeated him by making peace and acceptance with himself. By doing this, Doctor Octopus was no longer a threat.

And here is a great example of it :D

Ock making peace and acceptance with himself??? That's how Doctor Octopus should be defeated?? Get a CLUE!!! :rolleyes:

If violence and ACTION is all you guys care about,

It's not.

We also care about a faithful portrayl of the characters.Which for the most part,we're not getting.You gave a shining example of it above.

[The Bruce]

I have to agree with Doc Ock on this one...But I have to add that the Spider-man movies STILL IMO are the best comic book movies ever....The action sceenes are amazing.

[Darth Wolverine]

I kinda agree with Doc Ock, but there is one point I don't think anyone seems to understand:
Ock making peace and acceptance with himself??? That's how Doctor Octopus should be defeated?? Get a CLUE!!!
Ock didn't make peace and acceptance with himself...Spidey helped him to overcome the influence and manipulation of the mechanical arms. And I thought this was much more effective than a fight scene which resulted in his death; we had that in the first movie.

[TheVileOne]

That's what's SUPPOSED to happen.

You ever hear of a famous story where Harry becomes GG2?? It's in these things called Spider-Man comics.You should really read a few some time.You might understand why some people don't like Raimi's "artistic" changes.

I do read them. Some people = a few people on SHH.

And guess what happens when Harry Osborn becomes the second Green Goblin in the comics? They HATE each other. They fight each other a lot. And what did it solve? NOTHING! They fought and fought and fought and it never solved anything! Though at the end, when Peter was dying and his life was threatened and Harry could've just let him die and finally get his revenge, Harry saved Peter's life before dying himself.

If this happened in the movies, you guys would just start a thread about how Peter never beats the Goblin in the movies and how at the end, The Goblin saves him.


Violence is the only way Spider-Man can defeat most of his major enemies.Not giving them speeches about being selfless and decent :rolleyes:


:rolleyes: . And did he not use it to temporarily incapacitate Doctor Octopus at one point? He couldn't stop the machine and needed his help, they could've kept fighting maybe, but then New York would've been destroyed, and I guess you would've been happier with that.


And this is why you are absolutely clueless of practically all things Spider-Man IMO. Raimi's opinions have made a mess of several very important Spidey elements.

You sound like a broken record.


And here is a great example of it :D

Ock making peace and acceptance with himself??? That's how Doctor Octopus should be defeated?? Get a CLUE!!! :rolleyes:

I didn't say Doctor Octopus, but Peter Parker/Spider-man.

And it worked, so yeah I think I have a clue.


It's not.

We also care about a faithful portrayl of the characters.Which for the most part,we're not getting.You gave a shining example of it above.

I don't think you give a jack about faithful portrayals, you just care about your portrayal.

Guys like Herr Logan and TheSlag are trauamatized that Ock never pimp slapped Spider-man...SO UNFAITHFUL!

[TheSlag]

Guys like Herr Logan and TheSlag are trauamatized that Ock never pimp slapped Spider-man...SO UNFAITHFUL!

Traumatized? Hardly. Just another example of where Raimi is missing the boat. Now... guys like you who claim to be Spider-Man fans and have no clue.... Now there, you got something.

[TheVileOne]

Actually it would be YOU got something TheSlag, since I never brought it up.

But...

if I don't have a clue then ignorance is bliss

[TheSlag]

if I don't have a clue then ignorance is bliss


Then you should be like a pig in Pig-Slop Heaven. :p

TheVileOne Presents SM2 (scenes from the classic)

Spidey vs. the infamous Doc Ock Final Battle(?) Royale:

Spidey: I say Guvenor... Care for a Spot'O'Tea?
Guvenor(Ock): Why Dear Chap... throw in some Poetry Reading and I'm sooo there...
Spidey: But Guv.. what about your project?
Guv: Project... Smojrect... Throw in some crumpets and I'll fix you Breakfast in the morning too...
Spidey: Ooooo Behavvveeee...

:D

[Darth Wolverine]

Will you guys stop arguing and just agree to disagree?

[Joker]

I do read them.

It doesn't show.Either that or you have no appreciation for the real characters.

And guess what happens when Harry Osborn becomes the second Green Goblin in the comics? They HATE each other. They fight each other a lot. And what did it solve? NOTHING!

Exactly.And it made for one of the finest Spider-Man stories ever.Dramatic and tragic.Here's a newsflash for you.Villains like GG1,Ock,Electro etc don't think "Oh violence never solves anything".They're bad guys.Crazy,evil people.Usually like to flaunt their power thru violence.

But Raimi will probably have Harry talked down by a recycled Aunt May speech too :rolleyes:

They fought and fought and fought and it never solved anything! Though at the end, when Peter was dying and his life was threatened and Harry could've just let him die and finally get his revenge, Harry saved Peter's life before dying himself.

Again,like I said it makes for a fantastic story.Only difference is that if Raimi makes Harry save the day,it will be rehash of Ock in SM-2.

Ock saving the city.Jesus Christ :rolleyes:

If this happened in the movies, you guys would just start a thread about how Peter never beats the Goblin in the movies and how at the end, The Goblin saves him.

I doubt it.Because if that did happen,it would be faithful to the comics.

:rolleyes: . And did he not use it to temporarily incapacitate Doctor Octopus at one point? He couldn't stop the machine and needed his help,

And Doctor Octopus,the REAL Doctor Octopus would not give it.Not in a million years.Sacrifice himself and let Spider-Man go???

Yeah that's real Doc Ock :rolleyes:

but then New York would've been destroyed, and I guess you would've been happier with that.

Oh yeah that would rock :rolleyes:

You sound like a broken record.

Well you sound like a clueless kid.So cest la vie :)

And it worked, so yeah I think I have a clue.

It worked as a cheap way to save New York,when it should have been Spider-Man stopping the reactor and defeating Ock.

So you have no clue.

I don't think you give a jack about faithful portrayals, you just care about your portrayal.

My portrayl is a faithful portrayl.Name one thing I've said that is not true to the characters in the comics.

You're the one constantly defending Raimi and his tasteless changes.

Guys like Herr Logan and TheSlag are trauamatized that Ock never pimp slapped Spider-man...SO UNFAITHFUL!

Traumatized?? Hardly.

Disappointed and possibly annoyed?? Definitely.

[Joker]

And I thought this was much more effective than a fight scene which resulted in his death; we had that in the first movie.

Who says Ock has to die??? I would love to have seen him imprisoned in a steel cell at the end,with his tentacles locked to the wall,like in the 90's animated series.

Spider-Man does not kill.He didn't kill the Green Goblin.

Frankly I'd rather have Ock go down as a villain like GG1 did,rather than as an A.I. controlled hero :down

Don't make well established and loved characters something they're not.If it ain't broken don't try and 'fix' it.

[Darth Wolverine]

You all seemed to ignore my previous post, so I'll quote it now.

Will you guys stop arguing and just agree to disagree?

[TheVileOne]

It doesn't show.Either that or you have no appreciation for the real characters.

Of course I don't. Because these are real flesh and blood characters that have never evolved or changed at all, no sir. These characters are REAL, the Spider-man comics are just history books documenting REAL events in our history.


Exactly.And it made for one of the finest Spider-Man stories ever.Dramatic and tragic.Here's a newsflash for you.Villains like GG1,Ock,Electro etc don't think "Oh violence never solves anything".They're bad guys.Crazy,evil people.Usually like to flaunt their power thru violence.

Well because they are villains. Why should the director agree with a villains' point of view? Aren't the villains supposed to be wrong?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but I don't see what the violence of super villains' ever solves other than satisfying their own twisted minds.


But Raimi will probably have Harry talked down by a recycled Aunt May speech too :rolleyes:


No matter what happens in the movie, you will find something to nitpick or whine about. He never talked down Norman in the first movie.


Again,like I said it makes for a fantastic story.Only difference is that if Raimi makes Harry save the day,it will be rehash of Ock in SM-2.

Its still a fantastic story, and it enforces the CLUELESS theme you hate so much that violence doesn't solve anything.


Ock saving the city.Jesus Christ :rolleyes:


And what's wrong with this? He took responsibility for his actions and stopped being selfish for once. You are just going to respond and talk about THE REAL DOC OCK! THE REAL CHARACTERS, FAITHFULNESS!

I thought it made for a fantastic story that he destroyed his dream and creation seeing the damage it was causing.

I don't think its much different than seeing the COMICS Doctor Octopus saving innocent civilians from a collapsing building.


I doubt it.Because if that did happen,it would be faithful to the comics.


Nope if it did happen you'd complain that oh RAIMI IS CLUELESS! SPIDER-MAN 2 REHASH! VIOLENCE SOLVES EVERYTHING!


And Doctor Octopus,the REAL Doctor Octopus would not give it.Not in a million years.Sacrifice himself and let Spider-Man go???

Yeah that's real Doc Ock :rolleyes:

Fine we'll call movie Doctor Octopus FAKE Doctor Octopus. The FAKE Doctor Octopus you brandish in your avatar and have claimed was one of the best parts about the movie.

Are you happy now?

I'm making it official, from now on we shall refer to movie Doctor Octopus as FAKE Doctor Octopus.

Well you sound like a clueless kid.So cest la vie :)


I guess that makes Raimi a clueless adult, and the millions of people that loved the Spider-man movies clueless as well.


It worked as a cheap way to save New York,when it should have been Spider-Man stopping the reactor and defeating Ock.

He did defeat Doctor Octopus. And so they did something a little different than what you expected or wanted. What's the big deal?


So you have no clue.


It seems the only person that gets to have a clue is you. You're like Akito from Fruits Basket.


My portrayl is a faithful portrayl.Name one thing I've said that is not true to the characters in the comics.

I don't see why movies have to be so slavishly faithful PORTRAYALS of the comics. I'm clueless though because I still the movies as being faithful to the comics and their characters. All you see is just one giant nitpick and complaint after another.


You're the one constantly defending Raimi and his tasteless changes.

The ONLY, only people I ever see making TASTELESS changes to Spider-man are the idiot comic book writers. Guys like Stracynski with stories like Sins Past or the latest crap that's called THE OTHER. The clone saga, it goes on and on.

I'd call Raimi's changes tasteful in comparison, but I'm clueless so don't even respond.


Traumatized?? Hardly.

Disappointed and possibly annoyed?? Definitely.

With the posts you make, it really seems like its gone beyond disappointed and annoyed for you. My best suggestion would just be to stay away from the movies and just watch reruns of the cartoons and read the comics from now on.

[Happenstance]

I dont mind bad guys being beaten with words at all but only certain ones that should be able to be redeamed. Yeah movie Ock could be redeamed but I dont think he should have been written that way.

[Joker]

You all seemed to ignore my previous post, so I'll quote it now.

Don't be ridiculous.

If we can't discuss our opinions then what's the point in coming here??

I know and I'm sure Vileone knows we're not going to change eachother's minds.We're not even trying to.

The art of debate is something I enjoy.If we all agreed on everything,life would be boring here.

Of course I don't. Because these are real flesh and blood characters that have never evolved or changed at all, no sir. These characters are REAL, the Spider-man comics are just history books documenting REAL events in our history.

The movie characters are real but the comic characters are not??

What?? You find the characters of the movie more real?? A Peter Parker who hasn't gotten any more confident in the two years of being a superhero,and stays a shy love sick puppy.That's more real to you??

Or a man controlled by robotic arms is more real,as opposed to a sociopathic,arrogant,power hungry scientist who is given a great power and lashes out at the world with it.

Mmmmkay whatever floats your boat.

No matter what happens in the movie, you will find something to nitpick or whine about. He never talked down Norman in the first movie.

Because Norman's character was written faithfully.He was an actual bad guy


It's still a fantastic story, and it enforces the CLUELESS theme you hate so much that violence doesn't solve anything.

It's a mediocre story.

All about the girl again,Peter loses his powers because MJ has found yet another guy,and Peter's supposed idol Otto Octavius,whom Peter doesn't try and help until the last minute,is controlled by his own invention.

And as I said,with villains like GG and Ock,violence is the only way to stop them.These guys cannot be reasoned with.



I guess that makes Raimi a clueless adult, and the millions of people that loved the Spider-man movies clueless as well.

Raimi is very clueless about alot of important Spidey elements.

I like the Spider-Man movies too,as I have said to you several times before.It's when people like yourself step in and claim them to be faithful to the source material,then I start the criticisms.Of which there are many.

You can love a movie without it being faithful or even a brilliant movie.I've seen people praise the hell out of the FF movie and Elektra.Much like you're doing with SM-2.

He did defeat Doctor Octopus. And so they did something a little different than what you expected or wanted. What's the big deal?

No he didn't defeat him.Ock had Spidey by the throat,and Peter pleaded to Otto's good nature to do the right thing by regurgitating Aunt May's corny speech.

Otto overcame the tentacles.Not Spider-Man.Otto destroyed the reactor.Not Spider-Man.That is not a defeat.

The big deal is,every single time,Spider-Man and Doc Ock face off,it ends with Spider-Man physically defeating Ock,or Ock escaping.

Doctor Octopus is bad.A villain.With little to no morals.He has no problem killing innocents,threatening millions of lives.He does not work for the good of mankind.And he needs no A.I. to influence his decisions.

Fine we'll call movie Doctor Octopus FAKE Doctor Octopus. The FAKE Doctor Octopus you brandish in your avatar and have claimed was one of the best parts about the movie.

Are you happy now?

I'm making it official, from now on we shall refer to movie Doctor Octopus as FAKE Doctor Octopus.

Well I always liked Slag's name of Doc Ock lite.

But Fake Doctor Octopus is good too :up:

And he was the best part,not one of the best,the best part of the movie.I loved Alfred Molina's performance as Ock.When he was being bad he rocked.Visually stunning,and the action scenes are the best ever.No comic book movie has topped them.

Movie Ock left some big shoes to fill in SM-3.And I'll miss him not being in it.I loved Molina as Ock and I proudly brandish him in my avatar.

I just don't like how he was written in some parts.Namely the poetry loving goody guy,being controlled by the tentacles,and redempting at the end.That's not Otto Octavius.


I don't think its much different than seeing the COMICS Doctor Octopus saving innocent civilians from a collapsing building.

Oh you mean the story written by JMS??? The guy you just blasted below for making tasteless changes to Spider-Man?? ;)


It seems the only person that gets to have a clue is you.

You're too kind.But I can't take all the praise.People like Herr Logan,Slag,Symbiotica,Vile,Saph,The Green Goblin,Daisy etc.

They all have a clue too :)

I don't see why movies have to be so slavishly faithful PORTRAYALS of the comics. I'm clueless though because I still the movies as being faithful to the comics and their characters. All you see is just one giant nitpick and complaint after another.

Nobody,least of all me,has asked for 100% faithfulness.Word for word,panel by panel recreations of the comics.

All I ask is that they portray the characters faithfully.And we're not getting that with several of the major characters.

It's not much to ask for.To write the characters faithfully.They're not difficult characters to do on screen.All the material is there.Use it.

The ONLY, only people I ever see making TASTELESS changes to Spider-man are the idiot comic book writers. Guys like Stracynski with stories like Sins Past or the latest crap that's called THE OTHER. The clone saga, it goes on and on.

Oh yes I agree.The comics are a MESS right now.

Like you mentioned above with that stupid thing JMS did with Ock.That's JMS for you :)

With the posts you make, it really seems like its gone beyond disappointed and annoyed for you.

Why?? Because we passionately defend the character of Spider-Man and other classic characters,like you passionately defend Raimi's version of the characters??

My best suggestion would just be to stay away from the movies and just watch reruns of the cartoons and read the comics from now on.

I have no intention to stay away from the movies.I like them alot,but they are very flawed.

So I shall continue to watch them,read the comics,watch the cartoons and give my opinions every time :)

[Darth Wolverine]

If we all agreed on everything,life would be boring here.
True, but couldn't it work this way as well:
If everything was the same, watching the Spider-Man movies would be boring.
We had plenty of cool action in that movie, and you think it's flawed because Spidey manage to talk to him and relate to him enough to free him of the arms' influence instead of beating him senseless?

[Joker]

We had plenty of cool action in that movie, and you think it's flawed because Spidey manage to talk to him and relate to him enough to free him of the arms' influence instead of beating him senseless?

It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

Ridiculous.

That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.

[Darth Wolverine]

I see your point...but if every single TV series, comic, film etc showed Doc Ock as the same, stereotypical evil guy with four mechanical arms, he'd be pretty boring. It's the personality that makes a character...and a personality has got to have depth, and be layered. Although some people mess perfectly good characters, saying that they are developing them, each writer shows different portrayals of that character, and each version adds something to the character, no matter how stupid it appears to some people.

[Joker]

I see your point...but if every single TV series, comic, film etc showed Doc Ock as the same, stereotypical evil guy with four mechanical arms, he'd be pretty boring.

You claim he'd be boring??

And yet he has been portrayed as a true villain for over 40 years in the comics,and readers have not bored of him.

The Green Goblin is the same.Why were people not bored of him in SM-1???

Should we make The Joker a misguided soul in the Batman Begins sequal?? Should we have him turned good and save Gotham from his laughing gas or something,because people might be bored of the sterotypical crazy clown after 65 years???

Of course not.

You think having Octavius controlled by A.I. tentacles gave him layers?? If anything it stripped him of what makes him so special.

[Darth Wolverine]

I don't think you read the rest of my post. If you remember, I also said that whatever 'layers' they may add may be silly. And, yes, if every villain was portrayed a pure evil, then yes it would be boring, and stupid; pure evil doesn't let personality show through. With Joker and Goblin, they are so psychotic and messed up that their 'conditions' and relationships with their enemies make them interesting enough; but with most other foes, we need to know motives, personality, attitude etc. And, as I said before, this can be displayed in conflicting ways.
I don't think you realise that the Doc Ock you see in Spider-Man 2 is NOT the Doc Ock you read about in the comics; the one portrayed in the film is merely a differen interpretation of the same character. I'm not saying you should like it....I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect to see exactly the same Doc Ock in his every appearance.

[Joker]

I don't think you read the rest of my post. If you remember, I also said that whatever 'layers' they may add may be silly.

Ok my bad.Sorry I misread what you said there.

And, yes, if every villain was portrayed a pure evil, then yes it would be boring, and stupid; pure evil doesn't let personality show through.

And you think Doctor Octopus has no personality??

-The man who was the first villain to defeat and humiliate Spider-Man
-the first villain to unmask Spider-Man
-who founded the Sinister Six
-who was the Master Planner
-who brain washed Spider-Man into joining him in crime
-who was involved in the death of Captain Stacy
-who tried to marry Aunt May for her inheritance of a nuclear facility so he could build atomic wepaons in it
-Who saved Spider-Man's life so he could be the one to kill him in a grand and glorious manner
-Who tried to force Spider-Man to unmask himself in Times Square,or else he's kill the palestinian ambassador

That's just a list of some of his nefarious deeds.Never mind the fact that Octavius sees himself as Spider-Man's superior.Both powerwise and intellectually.That he wants to use his power and genius to get the wealth and power he believes he deserves.

That in childhood his father verbally abused him for being weak,that he told him constantly that a man is measured by his STRENGTH and POWER. While his mother coddled him.She told him he was a genius,that others were just jealous of him and his talents.Those were the seeds of Ock sewn at an early age.

But best of all,Otto Octavius is considered the dark side of Peter Parker.Both were bullied as kids,both were science geeks,both had rough childhoods,both lost their fathers at a young age,both acquired their powers thru a scientific accident.
And that's the parallel.Where Peter used his powers with great responsibility and for good,Octavius used his for selfish,evil purposes.Showing no responsibility for what he was doing.

Doc Ock is not PURE evil.I don't think even Norman Osborn is.But these guys are not poster people for the Red Cross.They're not altar boys or saints.They're bad.Very,very bad.So bad they kill innocents without batting an eye.

With Joker and Goblin, they are so psychotic and messed up that their 'conditions' and relationships with their enemies make them interesting enough; but with most other foes, we need to know motives, personality, attitude etc.

I agree.

But you'd have to be illiterate not to know Ock's motives,personality and attitude.As I've explained above.

I don't think you realise that the Doc Ock you see in Spider-Man 2 is NOT the Doc Ock you read about in the comics; the one portrayed in the film is merely a differen interpretation of the same character.

Have you not been reading this thread??

I realise it all too well ;)

I'm not saying you should like it....I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect to see exactly the same Doc Ock in his every appearance.

SM-2 is the ONLY dramatically different interpretation of Doc Ock I have ever seen.If there is another one then please point me to it.

I loved Molina as Ock.He had some great moments.But the character was written very unfaithfully.

[Darth Wolverine]

I didn't mean Ock was boring...he's my favourite Spidey villain! I meant that he is interesting because of the fact that he is not pure evil. He doesn't go round killing people for the heck of it, or blowing up cities. Thus, we see his motives, attitude, and most importantly: his personality. However, in the movie, his personality changed from greedy-scientist-with-a-grudge, to much-loved-family-man-taken-over-by-evil-robotic-arms.

The more I think of it, the more I tend to agree with you that it is a bit of a disappointment...but nevertheless, that's what we got. Ina ctuality, if you took away the two versions' powers, you'd be left with 2 totally different characters...which is why it's probably best to think of them as 2 totally separate villains. I never really thought of Ock as Peter's dark equivalent, but I suppose it's kinda true...and if that is true, then maybe Spidey would be able to relate to him a little more than we all thought. Perhaps not in the way as shown in the film, but it could be explored elsewhere...

[Joker]

I didn't mean Ock was boring...he's my favourite Spidey villain!

Again sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying.It's just you gave the impression that you were saying Ock in the comics had little personality,so Raimi improved on that by having him controlled by the tentacles.

I meant that he is interesting because of the fact that he is not pure evil. He doesn't go round killing people for the heck of it, or blowing up cities. Thus, we see his motives, attitude, and most importantly: his personality.

Agreed.Ock does not kill for pleasure.He does it as a necessity to achieve his goals.Not that he has any inhibitions about murdering innocents.And he does enjoy it on occasion.

But he does not go out and kill simply for pleasure.

However, in the movie, his personality changed from greedy-scientist-with-a-grudge, to much-loved-family-man-taken-over-by-evil-robotic-arms.

I know :down

I never really thought of Ock as Peter's dark equivalent, but I suppose it's kinda true...and if that is true, then maybe Spidey would be able to relate to him a little more than we all thought. Perhaps not in the way as shown in the film, but it could be explored elsewhere...

You should visit the comics forum more dude.Most Spidey fans,and even Marvel writers believe that.And of course that Venom is the evil Spider-Man.

They could have explored that parallel between Peter and Octavius in the movie.But it,like so many other interesting possibilities lost out to the all about a girl stuff.

It's been a pleasure chatting to you dude.You're a gentleman :)

[Darth Wolverine]

It's been a pleasure chatting to you dude.You're a gentleman

Same to you! :D
I never knew debating could be so fun...especially with a fellow Spidey/Doc Ock fan!

[Infinity9999x]

He should have ousted Ock fairly easily, seeing as how he got to hit him in the face about 20FRIGGIN TIMES. But going by the logic in that movie, spidey couldn't knock out ock, even though he was strong enough to stop a train, and hold up a wall of a warehouse building.....anyone else see flawed logic there?

[Kevin Roegele]

It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

Ridiculous.

That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.


Hhhhhey - that makes me think. We know the Lizard was in early drafts of Spidey 2. Do you suppose Doc Ock was given most of Connor's role?

I.e...

Spidey defeats Ock at the climax with the electricity pipes thing. Doc is uncouncious. The it's the Lizard who grabs Spidey by the neck and Peter convinces to 'be a good man'. And the the Lizard destroys the machine.

[James"007"Bond]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."

You sure? Because the last time I watched that painfull let down of a movie, I saw spidey hld up some cables that immobalized ock at least temporarily. Now that I think about it, they both defeated each other once....temporarily so it cancels out. Ock knocked out spidey on the train, handing him over to Harru, was ock's temporary win. So its all square.

[Murder]

This place is like Days of our Lives with all the drama.

[Red X]

It's got nothing to do with the action,despite what some might think.

Spidey relating to Ock,and making him see sense,is not the nature of the Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus relationship.Doctor Octopus should have no INFLUENCE on his actions.His actions should be his own doing.

If Raimi wanted a tragic scientist villain,who is not really evil and simply a victim of his own experiment,then he should have used the Lizard.

Curt Connors is a decent guy,happily married,and a mentor to Peter.And that's what Raimi made Otto Octavius in SM-2.

Ridiculous.

That scene with Otto,Peter and Rosie at the dinner table is a scene we should have been watching with Curt Connors and his wife.

You know though if they use The Lizard at some point it will just end up a rehash of Ock.

[Joker!]

You know though if they use The Lizard at some point it will just end up a rehash of Ock.

Indeed.Assuming he does the Lizard faithfully that is :o

Good one Raimi :down

[Donald Thomas]

He should have ousted Ock fairly easily, seeing as how he got to hit him in the face about 20FRIGGIN TIMES. But going by the logic in that movie, spidey couldn't knock out ock, even though he was strong enough to stop a train, and hold up a wall of a warehouse building.....anyone else see flawed logic there?
ALoha,
Very good observation.In Amazing SPider-MAn #3-Spidey commments that its strange that an old fashioned sock to the jaw defeated his most dangerous opponent.
Spidey rules-Hollywood fools

[G man]

Hhhhhey - that makes me think. We know the Lizard was in early drafts of Spidey 2. Do you suppose Doc Ock was given most of Connor's role?

I.e...

Spidey defeats Ock at the climax with the electricity pipes thing. Doc is uncouncious. The it's the Lizard who grabs Spidey by the neck and Peter convinces to 'be a good man'. And the the Lizard destroys the machine.

You may actually be on to something there! Movie-Ock did seem to be written very Connors-like. Anyway, I agree with alot of what "Doc Ock" is saying about them not being at all faithul to the character. They had better not screw up the Lizard!

First post, don't mind me. :)

[Infinity9999x]

ALoha,
Very good observation.In Amazing SPider-MAn #3-Spidey commments that its strange that an old fashioned sock to the jaw defeated his most dangerous opponent.
Spidey rules-Hollywood fools

yes! And that's the way it should have been. Spidey shouldn't have been able to get to ock so easily, make it harder for him to get through his tentacles, and only allow him to get minor hits in because he has to doge the tentacles so much.

[Jon Hex]

yes! And that's the way it should have been. Spidey shouldn't have been able to get to ock so easily, make it harder for him to get through his tentacles, and only allow him to get minor hits in because he has to doge the tentacles so much.

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

[Joker]

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

With just 4 arms??

How about we re-phrase that.With four titanium,and occasionally adamantium arms,each one can extend up to 24 feet in length,move at speeds of up to 70 m.p.h. and can swing subway trains like they're baseball bats.

Yeah he should not have been so tough......NOT! :o ;)

If anyone watched 'Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's animated show,that depicted how it should have been between Spidey and Ock.Ock kept Spider-Man at arms length,if you'll pardon the pun,thru the entire episode.In the end Spidey had to use his brains to defeat Octavius.

Spidey got too close to Ock too often in SM-2.But still their fight scenes were spectacular nonetheless.

[Jon Hex]

With just 4 arms??

How about we re-phrase that.With four titanium,and occasionally adamantium arms,each one can extend up to 24 feet in length,move at speeds of up to 70 m.p.h. and can swing subway trains like they're baseball bats.

Yeah he should not have been so tough......NOT! :o ;)

If anyone watched 'Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's animated show,that depicted how it should have been between Spidey and Ock.Ock kept Spider-Man at arms length,if you'll pardon the pun,thru the entire episode.In the end Spidey had to use his brains to defeat Octavius.

Spidey got too close to Ock too often in SM-2.But still their fight scenes were spectacular nonetheless.


I see you're quite the Doc ock fan. Not just in name.

Keeping Spidey at arm's length is reasonably but having him capture or trap Spidey with his tentacles as in a lot of their fights is what i have a problem with when you factor-in incredible speed, reflexes and spider sense.

[Joker]

I see you're quite the Doc ock fan. Not just in name.

Keeping Spidey at arm's length is reasonably but having him capture or trap Spidey with his tentacles as in a lot of their fights is what i have a problem with when you factor-in incredible speed, reflexes and spider sense.

I think you missed what I said.Ock's arms can move just as fast as Spider-Man,and are strong enough to hold Spider-Man.Each arm can lift up to 4 tons.The arms can move as quickly as 70 m.p.h and are fast enough to deflect gun fire.

Heck he can even topple whole buildings with them:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/octopus/Knockdown2.jpg

You find a problem with them ensnaring Spider-Man during battle???

[Infinity9999x]

I disagree. With spider sense and speed, Ock shouldn't have been as tough as he is in the comics. With only 4 arms and no Super powers? Nope.

well Ock beat me to this one. But basically, yes Spidey is very fast, but he's not the flash. Ock's arms are just as fast as him, he should have never gotten so close to ock in the movie. Or had to resort to nailing him in the face 20 times before he got knocked out. But like Ock said, the fight secenes were still amazing to watch, that was just my little pet peeve. It bugged me.

[terry78]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action? :cool:

I enjoy pathos in my heroes, but I don't want to sit there crying my eyes out either over what they're going through.

[El Payaso]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action? :cool:

Artist.

[TheVileOne]

I hate to get so neanderthal, but how can you call yourself a man and favor drama scenes over action? :cool:

I enjoy pathos in my heroes, but I don't want to sit there crying my eyes out either over what they're going through.

If it makes me less of a man, then fine.

For me its not about favoring one over the other. Its about finding the characters compelling and engaging, and then the action scenes as well as a result. Action scenes don't mean **** to me if I don't care about the characters. The Spider-man movies did that for me and a lot of other people. Something the Hulk wasn't able to do.

[Kevin Roegele]

I think you missed what I said.Ock's arms can move just as fast as Spider-Man,and are strong enough to hold Spider-Man.Each arm can lift up to 4 tons.The arms can move as quickly as 70 m.p.h and are fast enough to deflect gun fire.

Heck he can even topple whole buildings with them:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/octopus/Knockdown2.jpg

You find a problem with them ensnaring Spider-Man during battle???

That was an awesome fight sequence. Drawn by the guy who designed all the action in The Matrix movies.

[Kevin Roegele]

If this happened in the movies, you guys would just start a thread about how Peter never beats the Goblin in the movies and how at the end, The Goblin saves him

As I said in the original post, "Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest."

And please, don't take anything I or anyone else posts here personally, even if it is criticism of a movie.

[Beelze]

LOL!

Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:
It's worth noting that the death of Norman caused problems (the friendship between Peter and Harry going sour, and Harry becoming a villain). Anyway, a director's personal opinion doesn't have to be reflected in his movies.

[Vile]

Not only did Spidey never actually defeat Octopus, but Spidey also never saved the day.

Shame, really.

[Happenstance]

Id call saving a train saving the day

[Vile]

Well, I'm sure we can lump in all the purse snatchers and whatnot with that too, but...I dunno. I was kinda hoping he'd save NYC from the evil Dr Octopus and his fusion machine.

Whoops...He didn't save NYC and whoops Octopus wasn't evil.

Le sigh.

[Kevin Roegele]

Id call saving a train saving the day

<Smacks head against keyboard> Of course! I was never sure why the climatic battle was interupted for a big rescue scene - it's odd pacing - but it's because Spidey has to do a big save and doesn't stop Ock's machine.

[Symbiotica]

Who says Ock has to die??? I would love to have seen him imprisoned in a steel cell at the end,with his tentacles locked to the wall,like in the 90's animated series.

That's how it should have ended, with Ock in jail. I cannot decide if he should have been restrained and drugged to the gills a la his first arc in Ultimate, being kept alive for research by SHIELD [and where the hell is SHIELD in these movies, anyways?] or alert and planning in his cell a la the cartoon, bragging about how "stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage; not against the genius of DOCTOR OCTOPUS...! MWA-HAHAHAHAHA," but whichever... that sure would have been sweet to see. :(

[TheVileOne]

Why should it have ended that way? Not all Doctor Octopus stories end like that.

I bet if it did end that way, you probably would've found it "too cheesy."

I like the image and everything, of Doctor Octopus imprisoned like that, still alive and he could strike again some day. But the ending in the film still works as he goes down in the depths ith his dream and his creation.

We already kind of got that image though at the end of the X-men movie with Magneto in a plastic prison.

[Joker]

Why should it have ended that way? Not all Doctor Octopus stories end like that.

None of the Doc Ock stories ended the way it did in SM-2,because that's not Doc Ock.

I bet if it did end that way, you probably would've found it "too cheesy."

You'll say anything to defend Raimi's tasteless decisions :rolleyes:

Trust me,compared to some of the cheese Raimi has done,seeing a manical imprisoned Ock would have been a treat.

But the ending in the film still works as he goes down in the depths ith his dream and his creation.

It might have done,if he hadn't deliberately sank himself with it to save everyone.

We already kind of got that image though at the end of the X-men movie with Magneto in a plastic prison.

Two completely different endings.

Magneto is a not a villain's villain.He really is trying to do the best for his kind.Fighting for his own kind.He just goes about it the wrong way.As was scene in that wonderful end scene in his cell with Xavier.They're both very strong minded and opinionated men,who look at the mutant/human relationship very differently,and were sitting there in Magneto's cell having a civilized conversation about it over a game of chess.

We didn't see Magneto chained up and ranting to himself like Ock would have done.Octavius knows what he is,and makes no apologies for it.Because he's a real villain.

So please,don't try and use the chess game in Magneto's cell as a comparison to a bitter and vengeful Ock,locked up and restrained in a steel cell,ranting to himself.

Apples and oranges they are.

If you really want to complain about repetitive scenes,talk about stuff like Peter saving infants in burning buildings.Don't pull scenes from different movies.

[TheVileOne]

None of the Doc Ock stories ended the way it did in SM-2,because that's not Doc Ock.


None of them ended with us thinking that Doctor Octopus might be dead?


You'll say anything to defend Raimi's tasteless decisions :rolleyes:

This is like the millionth time you said this.

You don't even know what tasteless truly means. This is getting really old Doc Ock.

I just like what they showed. Why does that make me tasteless? Why does that make Raimi tasteless? I don't fathom it at all.


Trust me,compared to some of the cheese Raimi has done,seeing a manical imprisoned Ock would have been a treat.


But they didn't. Instead we see a maniacal and off the deep end Harry Osborn, which I thought was good.


It might have done,if he hadn't deliberately sank himself with it to save everyone.

I don't think there is anything tasteless about finding a person who done wrong and takes responsibilities for his actions and owns up to them pretty compelling.

Two completely different endings.

Magneto is a not a villain's villain.He really is trying to do the best for his kind.Fighting for his own kind.He just goes about it the wrong way.As was scene in that wonderful end scene in his cell with Xavier.They're both very strong minded and opinionated men,who look at the mutant/human relationship very differently,and were sitting there in Magneto's cell having a civilized conversation about it over a game of chess.

Magneto is still the villain.


We didn't see Magneto chained up and ranting to himself like Ock would have done.Octavius knows what he is,and makes no apologies for it.Because he's a real villain.

Just like Magneto, I always get the sense from Doctor Octopus that he feels what is doing is right, whatever he does wrong is simply means to an end.


So please,don't try and use the chess game in Magneto's cell as a comparison to a bitter and vengeful Ock,locked up and restrained in a steel cell,ranting to himself.

Magneto was still pretty bitter and vengeful locked up in his cell. He says its not going to hold him forever. He's still going to get out and take his vengeance on the human race, or at least try.


If you really want to complain about repetitive scenes,talk about stuff like Peter saving infants in burning buildings.Don't pull scenes from different movies.

Its a pretty repetitive image of heroes or Spider-man saving people from burning buildings. Or buildings that are about to collapse or blow-up. And in the second movie, he didn't even have his powers, so it made the scene more unique. Just like bad guys robbing banks and heroes stopping it. Or thugs robbing people and Spider-man stopping it.

[Joker]

None of them ended with us thinking that Doctor Octopus might be dead?

Oh yes,but not dead because he played the hero and sacrificed himself.

That kind of thing is done by the likes of The Lizard or GG2.Not Ock.

This is like the millionth time you said this.

You don't even know what tasteless truly means. This is getting really old Doc Ock.

And your same poor reasons for excusing unnecessary changes to the Spider-Man characters is getting old.So what are you going to do?? :)

I know exactly what tasteless is.Tasteless is taking a classic villain,and giving him another classic villain's personality traits.

Octavius was Curt Connors with tentacles.The nice scientist guy,the happy marriage,the mentor relationship with Peter,becoming a victim of his own experiment,and redempting at the end.

That's the Lizard,not Ock.And that's tasteless.

If he wanted a scientist villain who's a nice guy,married,has a mentor relationship with Peter,becomes a victim of his own experiment,and then redempts at the end,then use the Lizard.Leave Ock alone.That's not his character.

I just like what they showed. Why does that make me tasteless? Why does that make Raimi tasteless? I don't fathom it at all.

And you never will fathom it from what I can see.Changing a villain when they don't need changing is tasteless.

Simple as that.

Nothing wrong with YOU liking it.Like whatever you want.But that doesn't make the changes any less unnecessary and tasteless.If it ain't broken then don't 'fix' it.

But they didn't. Instead we see a maniacal and off the deep end Harry Osborn, which I thought was good.

It was good.But heaven forbid we should of seen both Harry going off the deep end,and a imprisoned Ock.

I don't think there is anything tasteless about finding a person who done wrong and takes responsibilities for his actions and owns up to them pretty compelling.

But Doctor Octopus doesn't take responsibility for his actions.That's the difference between him and Spider-Man.

Otto Octavius is the Peter Parker gone bad.The anti Peter Parker.So making him redempt is like making Spider-Man kill the villain to save the city.

Spider-Man doesn't kill,even if it is for a good cause.And Ock doesn't destroy his ultimate creation to save the whole damn city.

Magneto is still the villain.

A very different villain to Ock,hence their imprisonment scenes would have been vastly different.

Just like Magneto, I always get the sense from Doctor Octopus that he feels what is doing is right, whatever he does wrong is simply means to an end.

LOL! You did?? Are you talking about movie Ock or the comics one?? Because I'll be more than happy to whip out a few scans to show you that Ock knows very well what he's doing is evil.

Magneto was still pretty bitter and vengeful locked up in his cell. He says its not going to hold him forever. He's still going to get out and take his vengeance on the human race, or at least try.

He didn't raise his voice,he didn't get aggressive,he didn't laugh like a lunatic.Completely different to Ock being imprisoned.


Its a pretty repetitive image of heroes or Spider-man saving people from burning buildings. Or buildings that are about to collapse or blow-up. And in the second movie, he didn't even have his powers, so it made the scene more unique. Just like bad guys robbing banks and heroes stopping it. Or thugs robbing people and Spider-man stopping it.

I haven't seen heros in any of the other current movies saving peope from burning buildings.Has Raimi taken it upon himself to tire out that image?? If so it's working.

I don't recalling him apprehending any bank robbers.Only petty thugs,muggers,convienence store robbers etc.

Also a whole scene wasn't made out of it.Unlike the burning building one.Same old same old.Only difference from the one in SM-1 was that Peter wasn't in costume,and was getting pulled up to safety by an infant ;)

[Jack O Lantern]

And you never will fathom it from what I can see.Changing a villain when they don't need changing is tasteless.

ut Doctor Octopus doesn't take responsibility for his actions.That's the difference between him and Spider-Man.

Otto Octavius is the Peter Parker gone bad.The anti Peter Parker.So making him redempt is like making Spider-Man kill the villain to save the city.


I liked Spider-Man 2 but I can see where people are coming from in their arguments aganist.

Its alll anout interpetations you interpet Doc Ock as a cold blooded killer, I don't agree with that and I don't agree with Raimi's eiter but I can see where he's coming from, I'm not an authority on Doc Ocks history pre accident but as far as I know he was a a law abbiding citizen and then when the acccident happened he became a villian, I can see jow one can interpet that as protrayed in the movie

[Joker]

I liked Spider-Man 2

So did I.But it's characterization of some of the characters leaves alot to be desired.

Its alll anout interpetations you interpet Doc Ock as a cold blooded killer, I don't agree with that

I don't see why you disagree.Ock has killed many people.I can post some scans if you like.He doesn't kill for pleasure,he kills if it means it achieves his goal.But he has no inhibitions or reservations about killing,if it means he get's what he wants.

And in Spider-Man's case,he would thoroughly enjoy killing him.

I'm not an authority on Doc Ocks history pre accident but as far as I know he was a a law abbiding citizen and then when the acccident happened he became a villian, I can see jow one can interpet that as protrayed in the movie

Well I am an authority on Octavius pre accident ;) He,like most of Spidey's other villains,were law abiding citizens,save for Sandman and Carnage.They were not killers,save for Carnage.

Octavius was an arrogant,egotistical,power hungry man who saw himself above everyone else.He was your classic sociopath.A seething cauldron of anger and resentment towards others.When the accident bonded him to his tentacles,his inhibitions were removed and he lashed out because he could.He had the power to do what he wanted.

He was never a nice scientist guy,married,and giving love advice to people.And he was never a victim villain either.He did what he does because he wanted to.As I said above,he certainly was never a redemptive villain.That's all the Lizard's gig.

I thoroughly enjoyed Alfred Molina as Ock.Best thing in SM-2 IMO.But certain aspects of the character were not Doctor Octopus at all.

[Jack O Lantern]

So did I.But it's characterization of some of the characters leaves alot to be desired.



I don't see why you disagree.Ock has killed many people.I can post some scans if you like.He doesn't kill for pleasure,he kills if it means it achieves his goal.But he has no inhibitions or reservations about killing,if it means he get's what he wants.

And in Spider-Man's case,he would thoroughly enjoy killing him.

I think it more to do with what believe cold blooded killer to mean, I always felt it means someone who kills for pleasure, I always looked at Ock as a calculated killer


Well I am an authority on Octavius pre accident ;) He,like most of Spidey's other villains,were law abiding citizens,save for Sandman and Carnage.They were not killers,save for Carnage.

Octavius was an arrogant,egotistical,power hungry man who saw himself above everyone else.He was your classic sociopath.A seething cauldron of anger and resentment towards others.When the accident bonded him to his tentacles,his inhibitions were removed and he lashed out because he could.He had the power to do what he wanted.

He was never a nice scientist guy,married,and giving love advice to people.And he was never a victim villain either.He did what he does because he wanted to.As I said above,he certainly was never a redemptive villain.That's all the Lizard's gig.

I thoroughly enjoyed Alfred Molina as Ock.Best thing in SM-2 IMO.But certain aspects of the character were not Doctor Octopus at all.

Like I said before I don't actually agree with Raimi but was just stating that I could see how someone could come to the conclusion he did

[November Rain]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."whoa whoa whoa...

bank fight, ock decided that re-kidnapping aunt may was the best line way to go after the battering he got.

ock kept spidey's at (get ready for it) arms length for most of the clock tower fight since he didn't want a face pounding, he nearly got done in by a clock hand, got dragged of a building, beating on a train which resulted in him deciding sappignn spidey's strength with an impossible feat was the way to go, which followed by a sucker punch.

so tha's 1-1 in my book...

parker got thrown through a window in their last fight (which he's used to by now) then layed a smack down from about 10 feet high right on ock's chest, proceeded to beat him severly, then shocked the living brains out of him. the only reason spidey didn't pummel him was because he needed his help.

c'est tout.

2-1

technically ock was on the back foot for all their encounters and spidey could have taken him out at any time, especially due to the reasoning some fans have that he was holding back his punches as well, even though he hit him more than a superpowered goblin and he never begged for his life or really lost conciousness (that was really due to the electric shocks)

all in all spidey's fighting prowess completely overwhelmed ock in nearly all examples, completely the reverse of most of their confrontations in animated media and across numerous comic based universes.

booo.

i dont think this 'never' defeated stance holds much water.

[Chris Wallace]

I kinda like the idea, & Spidey generally doesn't solve problems with his fists, which is why so many of his enemies are stronger than he is, (Rhino, for example) more powerful, (Electro) or have a weapon he can't defend against, (Shocker) but he still comes out on top.

[Chris Wallace]

Don't take this as a criticism per se, merely a point of intrest.

During the bank/wall fight, Aunt May pretty much ended the fight and saved Spidey from him, and then Peter himself had to convince Ock he was A Good Man Really at the climax.

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."
And from a certain point of view, that's not entirely true.
Ock clearly knew he couldn't win against Spidey, so he resorted to taking a hostage, attacking Spidey while he was struggling to save her, & trying to ambush him w/his tentacle spike.
Round 2-w/Spidey's mind mainly occupied by MJ's whereabouts, he still held his own rather well until Ock sabotaged the train, forcing him to tire himself out in his attempt to stop it.
Round 3-Spidey, again worried about MJ, is subjected to a sneak attack, & he still delivered the final blow.
But to me, a superhero is about more than just punching out the bad guy.

[Joker]

And from a certain point of view, that's not entirely true.
Ock clearly knew he couldn't win against Spidey, so he resorted to taking a hostage

No I don't agree with that.

The reason Ock grabbed Aunt May was to make the Police back off while he escaped.When he grabbed her they were forced to hold their fire,then he said "Don't follow me".

Spider-Man was already down at this time.Ock took him out by smacking him with the cab door.

[Chris Wallace]

Down but not out. Ock CLEARLY took advantage of Spidey's concern for the hostage's safety over his own.

[Joker]

Nope I don't agree.

Ock didn't go near a hostage until all the cops showed up and told him to freeze.That's when he snatched Aunt May and dangled her in front of them.

If he really didn't think he could take Spidey,he wouldn't have arranged to meet him on a clock tower,where there are no civilians to grab.It was pure fluke that they landed on a speeding train.Heck Ock had no intention of falling off that clock tower.It's just Spidey snagged him with his webs.

[Trooper]

now come to think about it, i agree

[Chris Wallace]

Nope I don't agree.

Ock didn't go near a hostage until all the cops showed up and told him to freeze.That's when he snatched Aunt May and dangled her in front of them.

If he really didn't think he could take Spidey,he wouldn't have arranged to meet him on a clock tower,where there are no civilians to grab.It was pure fluke that they landed on a speeding train.Heck Ock had no intention of falling off that clock tower.It's just Spidey snagged him with his webs.
And he resorted to throwing passengers off the train & then ripping out the control to wear Spidey down because...?

[terry78]

^He actually just did that to occupy him so he could get back to his precious Trinium, I thought. I think he feels he can beat him, but he knows he has a soft spot for innocents. He only sees Spidey as an annoyance in the way of his experiment, not someone he needs to kill. But he would had Harry not told him otherwise.

[Joker]

And he resorted to throwing passengers off the train & then ripping out the control to wear Spidey down because...?

You missed the point entirely.He ended up on the train not by choice.He and Spidey ended up there by fluke because Spidey pulled them both off the clock tower.

Ock's original choice of battle setting was the clock tower.He obviously intended to take Spidey down there,where no innocent civilians or any other interruptions were present.

Simple as that.

And to answer your question,he threw passengers off the train to either distract or enrage Spidey.A rather ruthless move too.

^He actually just did that to occupy him so he could get back to his precious Trinium, I thought. I think he feels he can beat him, but he knows he has a soft spot for innocents. He only sees Spidey as an annoyance in the way of his experiment, not someone he needs to kill. But he would had Harry not told him otherwise.

Exactly.

[Vile]

The reason Ock grabbed Aunt May was to make the Police back off while he escaped.When he grabbed her they were forced to hold their fire,then he said "Don't follow me".

I never understood that - since when does the mighty Dr Octopus run from a handful of cops?

Octopus should have slaughtered the cops instead of kidnapping an old woman. *rolls eyes*

[Trevor Goodchild]

I never understood that - since when does the mighty Dr Octopus run from a handful of cops?
Since man invented flesh piercing projectiles propelled through a barrel at high velocity by the gases produced through rapid, confined burning of a propellant.

Just my own two cents...

[Vile]

The guy can climb buildings and hurl cars with tentacles that can withstand large cutting tools, intense heat and magnetism...

What? They can't deflect bullets now? We've seen Octopus do this...what? hundreds of times throughout the comic books?

Please.

[Jack O Lantern]

I never understood that - since when does the mighty Dr Octopus run from a handful of cops?

Octopus should have slaughtered the cops instead of kidnapping an old woman. *rolls eyes*

Is a PG movie, there's your answer

[Vile]

He slaughtered a hospital full of surgeons - there's my responce.

Again, please.

[Trevor Goodchild]

It's not like in movie reality his tentacles could be as fast as a shower of bullets.

[Vile]

....Movie reality?

Are you serious?

Le sigh.

[Trevor Goodchild]

Alright, scratch that and forget you ever read it then.

It's not like his tentacles could be as fast as a shower of bullets.

[Vile]

A shower? What? 2 officers with handguns?

But, again, thats besides the point - we've seen Octopus do this...how many dozens of times in the comics?

If Spidey can dodge bullets, why can't Octopus' tentacles?

It could have happened - but Raimi just had to get Aunt May into an action scene...along with her stunning Umbrella-save.

[Trevor Goodchild]

I simply don't see this as a 'flaw' worthy of being discussed (I know, look who’s talking…).
Yes, he probably could've simply taken the chance and effort to dodge the bullets and punch them out. But being in a hurry and in the heat of the moment he went the easier and faster way to get them off his back.

[Geko]

The guy can climb buildings and hurl cars with tentacles that can withstand large cutting tools, intense heat and magnetism...

What? They can't deflect bullets now? We've seen Octopus do this...what? hundreds of times throughout the comic books?

Please.

Sure we've seen that hundreds of times in the comics, but in the comics he routinely upgrades his tentacles. So in the comics, did he do it in his first appearance?
In the movie, the tentacles are DESIGNED to lift heavy objects and be impervious to heat and magnetism, but they weren't designed for the speed and accuracy it would take to dodge a bullet.
And even if they theoretically could, would you want to test that theory (with your life) if you could just avoid it by taking a hostage?

[Matt]

The biggest sin of all in that movie.

Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.



I disagree. If comic Octavius saw his project failing, he would abort. Octavius is not a bad man per se...he is a very stubborn arrogant man...but not evil. He believes he cannot be wrong, he believes that his goals are worthy of any action to accomplish them, but I believe if Octavius in the comics were faced with a similiar situation he would stop it by any means necessary. Doc Ock isn't your "Destroy/take over the world" type villian.

And just for the record, Pete beats the bejesus out of Ock in their final confrontation, he electricutes him. He definitely defeats Doc Ock, its his machine he can't defeat.

[Joker]

I disagree. If comic Octavius saw his project failing, he would abort. Octavius is not a bad man per se...he is a very stubborn arrogant man...but not evil. He believes he cannot be wrong, he believes that his goals are worthy of any action to accomplish them, but I believe if Octavius in the comics were faced with a similiar situation he would stop it by any means necessary.

Ock is not evil?? You cannot be serious.Would you like me to post a few comic scans where he murders innocent people?? Tries to poison the city?? Blow it up maybe?? Drown it radiation?? Take your pick,I've got them all.

Doc Ock isn't your "Destroy/take over the world" type villian.


LOL! Please tell me you're joking.I gotta whip out the scanner.I've got several Ock arcs where he tries to take over the world.Pics coming up later folks.Stay tuned.

EDIT: Go here for response: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227029

[Mr. Socko]

Does anyone know more about Ock then you and Stan Lee? ;)

[Comic Book Boy]

The biggest sin of all in that movie.

Raimi hasn't got a damn clue sometimes.



LOL!

Yeah that's why the Goblin beat the living snot out of Spidey before being impaled with his own glider,blood dribbling from his mouth and all.

Good one Raimi,considering you believe it solves nothing :rolleyes:
And the reprocussions of that event are still effecting their lives, so Raimi's point is valid.

[Comic Book Boy]

Ock is not evil?? You cannot be serious.Would you like me to post a few comic scans where he murders innocent people?? Tries to poison the city?? Blow it up maybe?? Drown it radiation?? Take your pick,I've got them all.



LOL! Please tell me you're joking.I gotta whip out the scanner.I've got several Ock arcs where he tries to take over the world.Pics coming up later folks.Stay tuned.

EDIT: Go here for response: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227029
Matt was clearly reffering to the MOVIE version of Ock, which would make him right.

[Joker]

Matt was clearly reffering to the MOVIE version of Ock, which would make him right.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8445492&postcount=18

:)

[Spider-Girl™]

The comics and movies are too different mediums with two different audiences, Raimi can't please everyone, but he has to make the story believable to both audiences, and it would have been a major flop if he would have made Ock a personality replica of GG1. Just like in SM-3 were everyone is hoping GG2 is not just another GG1. I think Sam did a wonderful job with Doc Ock.

[Joker]

The comics and movies are too different mediums with two different audiences

So?? Movies audiences seem to accept the comic version of Jonah Jameson,Aunt May,Green Goblin and Harry Osborn,Batman,The Joker,Catwoman,The Scarecrow,Blade,Whistler,Magneto,Xavier and so many more comic book characters put on screen quite faithfully.What's your line of reasoning here??

Raimi can't please everyone, but he has to make the story believable to both audiences, and it would have been a major flop if he would have made Ock a personality replica of GG1

The last time I checked,he did make Ock have some of GG's personality.The whole talking to the arms,evil 2nd personality thing.Seems Raimi has a thing for schizo type villains who have a devil whispering in their ear.

Ock doesn't talk to himself,he doesn't say "We" when referring to himself.That's Venom's gig.

Comic Osborn and Octavius have two different personalities.Osborn is the driven business man and father.Octavius is the arrogant and egotistical scientist.They are not replicas of eachother.Different characters,different personalities,different motivations,different villains.

You want to talk about copying personalities?? Which of Spidey's villains is a nice scientist,who is happily married,a friend and mentor to Peter,and becomes a victim of his own experiment,and turns good at the end?? No it's not Octavius,but he was in SM-2 briefly.

Btw you spoke of making a story believable.You really think evil robot tentacles,who's A.I. is only programmed to control and sustain fusion reactions,have the smarts to tell Octavius to rob a bank?? How do they even know what a bank is?? Or money for that matter?? This is believable to you??

just like in SM-3 were everyone is hoping GG2 is not just another GG1.

How could anyone have that fear?? Norman and Harry are two different people with different personalities.Same as Norman and Otto.

[Spider-Girl™]

Whoa Ock, I wasn't posting to get my words dissected and analyzed, I was just saying there are people out there who dont read the comics, that would not pick up on alot of things in the movies. Not all characters can patrayed comic-ly on the big screen. Sometimes "Artistic" changes are needed. If Ock would have been another villain that was out to kill and cause mass chaos in the movie, he would have been just another Goblin to some people. You have to learn to see things from a non comic perspective also.

I didn't say anything about Ock saying we, so that was completely random. lol.:)

I have just seen posts on here,the official boards, and random other spidey/hero boards talking about people hoping harry isnt just another GG1. I am not here to argue, cause I know when it comes to the comics, youve got me beat. I was just here stating my opinion, thats all :)

[Joker]

Whoa Ock, I wasn't posting to get my words dissected and analyzed

I was not dissecting and analyzing.I was addressing each point you made for discussion,as is the nature of these boards ;)

Not all characters can patrayed comic-ly on the big screen

Maybe so,but Ock's not one of them.He can easily be translated faithfully on screen.It's just Raimi chose to make him sympathetic.When that is not the nature of a villain like Ock.

Sometimes "Artistic" changes are needed

I agree.But there are changes made that are also tasteless and unnecessary.Like those made to Ock IMO.

If Ock would have been another villain that was out to kill and cause mass chaos in the movie, he would have been just another Goblin to some people

But Ock did kill and cause mass chaos in the movie.You don't seem to understand that these villains are seperated by motivation and personality.Can you name one of Spidey's major villains who doesn't cause chaos in some form or another or kill for that matter??

It's how and why they do it that makes them unique.

I didn't say anything about Ock saying we, so that was completely random. lol.:)

No that was my own observation.You said copying other villain's personality traits was a bad thing.Well we had Octavius as a Curt Connors clone,the schizo trait of talking to his evil half ala GG,and referring to himself as "we" like Venom does.

I am not here to argue, cause I know when it comes to the comics, youve got me beat. I was just here stating my opinion, thats all :)

My dear I am not arguing with you.I am debating with you.You offered your opinion and I opened up a discussion with you about it.That's what we do around here.

I don't think I showed any hostlity or rudeness to you did I?? So please don't think of my posts as directing hostility towards you,because that is not their intention :)

[Spider-Girl™]

Ah sorry, didnt mean to seem %^$chy towards you, some of the forums I have been on, some people are quick to jump on others, didnt mean to place you in the category. I do agree with wholey that Doc Ock didnt seem in character. But with what they did to him, I guess I don't mind it, I have only read a handful of comics in my life. And Molina did a good job with his character, I was thrown off when he didnt have the accent though, I guess thats what I get for watching the animated series LOL.

[Joker]

Ah sorry, didnt mean to seem %^$chy towards you, some of the forums I have been on, some people are quick to jump on others, didnt mean to place you in the category

No problem :)

I do agree with wholey that Doc Ock didnt seem in character. But with what they did to him, I guess I don't mind it, I have only read a handful of comics in my life. And Molina did a good job with his character

I loved every minute of Molina's Ock.I really did.I thought he was great.He was the best thing in the movie IMO.But the changes made to his character were unnecessary.I have nothing against changes.Look how cool they made his tentacles and his costume.He looked more badass than ever.But the characterization was off.

I was thrown off when he didnt have the accent though, I guess thats what I get for watching the animated series LOL.

LOL! Alot of people made that mistake.Especially after we saw the first trailer.People were like "Hey why didn't he have the german accent??".

Funny seeing as Octavius was born and raised in New York.

[SpideyLad]

Am I the only person who finds Doc Ock's infinite knowledge on the character scary...?

[The Amazing Lee]

It's worth noting in the DVD commentary, Raimi says, "I don't think violence really solves anything...."

that statement oozes with so much Irony!

Considering this is the director/creator of Evil Dead we are talking about :rolleyes:

[Infinity9999x]

I still say the most annoying thing out of all the fights is the fact that Spidey SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OCK OUT WITH ONE PUNCH. He was just a normal guy, Spidey can lift a gigantic wall and stop a train...but he can't knock out a fat scientist when he hits him....yaa. That pissed me off.

[Everyman]

Octavius was an arrogant,egotistical,power hungry man who saw himself above everyone else.He was your classic sociopath.A seething cauldron of anger and resentment towards others.When the accident bonded him to his tentacles,his inhibitions were removed and he lashed out because he could.He had the power to do what he wanted.

He was never a nice scientist guy,married,and giving love advice to people.And he was never a victim villain either.He did what he does because he wanted to.As I said above,he certainly was never a redemptive villain.That's all the Lizard's gig.

I thoroughly enjoyed Alfred Molina as Ock.Best thing in SM-2 IMO.But certain aspects of the character were not Doctor Octopus at all.

I do think that Doctor Octopus was modified on the big screen, in many ways these modifications could be corrected in a subsequent movie (presuming he survived in the end of SM2), but I wonder if it was to thate xtend. Sure, he isn't as cold and selfish before the accident, but as I mentionned in a thread (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127430), there was a dark side in him from the beginning. Yes, movie Ock had a wife, but when the cold fusion experiment started going wrong, he didn't care too much about her safety, being right about his experiment seemed much more important. Octavius was, underneath an amiable personnality (and if I remember correctly the comic book Otto Octavius was nice to some people), already arrogant and overconfident, and more interested in the results than the risks taken to attain them.

[Image]

I still say the most annoying thing out of all the fights is the fact that Spidey SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OCK OUT WITH ONE PUNCH. He was just a normal guy, Spidey can lift a gigantic wall and stop a train...but he can't knock out a fat scientist when he hits him....yaa. That pissed me off.

I was thinking that as well when I saw the movie again yesterday lol. Maybe Spidey held his punches from fully being as strong as they could?? I'll take it like that. I really like the movie, I won't complain.

[iceberg325]

I was thinking that as well when I saw the movie again yesterday lol. Maybe Spidey held his punches from fully being as strong as they could?? I'll take it like that. I really like the movie, I won't complain.

Spidey did look up to the Doc before he went crazy. Probably didnt want to hurt him much.

[Image]

Exactly. I don't know why I just didn't say it like that aha.

[Vile]

Whatever helps you guys sleep at night. =)

[Fathermithras]

In the comics and books Spidey occasionally mentions how he pulls his punches and such against non super strong opponents to avoid killing them. That's why he can beat the Sinister six by himself, because he stops holding back in desparation.

[Everyman]

Question: in the comics, how many times did Spider-Man loose a fight against Doctor Octopus? It must have happened a couple of times.

[Joker]

Question: in the comics, how many times did Spider-Man lose a fight against Doctor Octopus? It must have happened a couple of times.

Well during Stan Lee's run alone he lost a fight with Ock in ASM#3,12,55,89 and 90.

[Everyman]

Well during Stan Lee's run alone he lost a fight with Ock in ASM#3,12,55,89 and 90.

Well, the movie is in that way quite faithful with the comics. Spidey does loose sometimes. That said, I hope Ock will be back for a sequel. What,s the status about it?

[Doctor Octopus]

Well, the movie is in that way quite faithful with the comics. Spidey does loose sometimes. That said, I hope Ock will be back for a sequel. What,s the status about it?

Alfred Molina said they have an option for him to come back for SM-4.

And he is willing to return. And both Raimi and Arad said he is not actually dead. So it's all good :)