"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"

[Lightning Strykez!]

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/trailer/10009185/trailer_07.jpg
"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"
A Theory On Why Cyclops' Death Might Work

An Essay By Lightning Strikez!



I've given much thought to these alleged "death" rumors, and have come to the conclusion that Cyclop's death might--just might--actually work for this film depending on how it's executed. Now, don't get wrong, I think it'd be a crime to waste such a promising and underdeveloped character, especially in lieu of the great actor that is James Marsden. However, this thread is not meant to discuss the *crimes* of this possible outcome, but rather how it might actually work--if it's done for emotional impact.


A Deeper Motive
Bryan Singer's prior X-films contained a certain level of believability and realism. Therefore, there obviously won't be outer space aliens or entities taking over bodies as they do in comic books. So what other element could feasibly drive Jean Grey to become Dark Phoenix without compromising the realistic tone in this series?

The answer? Accidental Manslaughter & Revenge.

If Jean accidentally deals a fatal blow to her lover, she (and the audience) will be forced to come to a chilling conclusion: She is out of control. And from what we understand, it will be revealed that Charles Xavier set her up for that failure--not only by putting psionic "brakes" in her mind at a tender young age, but also by stifling her attempts to develop her powers (i.e. in Cerebro).

http://www.thexverse.com/assets/gallery/x3/trailers/teaser1/cap050.jpg

Understandably, this revelation would likely pitch Jean into a wide plethora of emotions--including feelings of rage, betrayal, grief, confusion...and of course, insanity. Charles Xavier was her figurative "father" figure, her protector, her teacher. Yet, due to his overprotectiveness, he might have interfered with her natural evolution, thereby "framing" her in a sense with the future murder of Scott Summers. As a result, I think audiences would totally understand her defection to Magneto's Brotherhood Of Mutants.

So for this reason (and this reason alone), I believe that Scott's death--if it is true--could be one of the most emotionally gripping and pivotal scenes of the film for 3 different reasons: (1) It will show audiences just how powerful Jean has become, (2) his death would provide a "realistic" motive for Jean to apostasize against her mentor and (3) it would give basis to Jean's avenging Scott by killing someone else--as speculated.

http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/2003_X2/Thumb/003XMN_Patrick_Stewart_001.jpg

"We hurt the ones we love the most"
If these rumors hold true, this old adage will take on significant emotional meaning for Jean Grey, and the two most important men in her life. If done right, I believe it could be a powerful element in this movie--and most importantly--it would ensure that Scott's death would not be an "empty" thing.

Your thoughts?

[The Hurricane]

It could be the other way around with Cyclops killing jean or something like that. But my guess is the professor dies. At the funeral scene heis the only person who isnt there from the panning shot.

[deemar325]

Nah! WOLVERINE is the cash cow, so knock the guy who's supposed to be the leader out of the equation and put Hugh"Break out star"Jackman in the front spot and watch the money roll in.

[JP]

Speaking with both Zack Penn and Simon Kinberg on The Xverse, I must say it seems like those two are bent on doing the Phoenix saga justice and still making it very believable and realistic. I wouldn't be surprised if those points you've made are indeed what they were thinking.

Although, most people wont see it that way after reading your post, Lighty.

[The Hurricane]

He has still got to make the wolverine movie though so he cant die yet

[Lightning Strykez!]

Nah! WOLVERINE is the cash cow, so knock the guy who's supposed to be the leader out of the equation and put Hugh"Break out star"Jackman in the front spot and watch the money roll in.


Whoa...before we get off-subject, allow me to make the focus of this thread a bit more clear: It's not meant to be a "the funeral is for this person" etc., nor to go off on the "screentime" thing.

What do you guys think the emotional impact of Scott's death would have on audiences? And do you think it could be an event powerful enough to make moviegoers believe that Dark Phoenix is justified--without the comic book's "Phoenix Force" from the universe.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Speaking with both Zack Penn and Simon Kinberg on The Xverse, I must say it seems like those two are bent on doing the Phoenix saga justice and still making it very believable and realistic. I wouldn't be surprised if those points you've made are indeed what they were thinking.

Although, most people wont see it that way after reading your post, Lighty.

Why not? How do you think audiences would interpret it? Please explain.

[JP]

Why not? How do you think audiences would interpret it? Please explain.

Oh no, I meant the rabid fanboys that are Hype members. I think the first two posts in this thread show exactly what I mean.

[imaperson2]

heres what i think is gonna happen: cyclops will go to alkali lake to mourn... phoenix rises... hes surprised to see her... he dies...wolverine gets there..jean fainted...he takes her to the x-mansion...they put that thing on her head(dunno what its called).... meanwhile storm is talking...professor x leaves for a while, maybe to talk at the funeral... meanwhile she wakes up and wolverine tells her that she killed cyclops... she cries... blasts through the door to look for revenge...

yeah i know this probably wont happen but i think its a good idea.. what do u guys think?

[Lightning Strykez!]

Oh no, I meant the rabid fanboys that are Hype members. I think the first two posts in this thread show exactly what I mean.

Even "rabid fanboys" have brains. If they can read and reason, hopefully my theory will give them some food for thought.

I honestly believe this is the ONLY way that Scott Summers could lose his life and it NOT come across cheap to fans.

[Lightning Strykez!]

heres what i think is gonna happen: cyclops will go to alkali lake to mourn... phoenix rises... hes surprised to see her... he dies...wolverine gets there..jean fainted...he takes her to the x-mansion...they put that thing on her head(dunno what its called).... meanwhile storm is talking...professor x leaves for a while, maybe to talk at the funeral... meanwhile she wakes up and wolverine tells her that she killed cyclops... she cries... blasts through the door to look for revenge...

yeah i know this probably wont happen but i think its a good idea.. what do u guys think?

Um, no offense but...did you even read my thread? It's purpose is not to speculate on what the sequence of movie events might be.

Rather we are taking about kind of emotional impact Scott's death would have on audiences--and whether it's a good enough reason to bring Dark Phoenix into the storyline.

*smiles pleasantly*

:cool:

[sebaa]

cool! theory!!! but i dont want that the profesor or cyclops died!!!
question lightinig were do you get that "We hurt the ones we love the most" i listen that before..

[imaperson2]

yes i read the thread i just felt like putting it. what else would i reply: oh yea that would have a lot of emotional impact...? But seriously... i think that cyclops death is for a good reason... not just another death in the movie.

[The Hurricane]

I think it could work and justify the change if done correctly. But I do think it wont work out that way. They will make her transition i believe do to the ever growing power inside her sort of making her insane. Sort of a power hungry villain. Bent on destruction and so forth

[JP]

Even "rabid fanboys" have brains. If they can read and reason, hopefully my theory will give them some food for thought.

I honestly believe this is the ONLY way that Scott Summers could lose his life and it NOT come across cheap to fans.

I know. But there are some hard headed fans out there. The fans who claim they'd walk out the theater if Scott dies (yeah right). They don't want Scott dead because it isn't faithfull to the sourse material. But, these are the same fans who wouldn't mind MJ dying because they don't like Dunst.

The AICN draft never got into how Scott dies, why he dies, or what time in the movie he dies. Fans just jumt to assumptions without knowing the facts and automatically hate.

I for one am okay with his death as I am certain it will serve the story. I look at Scott and Jean as the Romeo and Juliet of the movies, and I think they should die together.

[Lightning Strykez!]

yes i read the thread i just felt like putting it. what else would i reply: oh yea that would have a lot of emotional impact...? But seriously... i think that cyclops death is for a good reason... not just another death in the movie.

Yeah, that's how I feel. I mean, I really can't think of any other believable way that Jean could become the Dark Phoenix in this "realistic" universe. There would have to be a sense of loss or some tragedy to push her over the edge. She's not going to be a symbiote for some heavenly being like in the comics.

For Magneto it was the separation from his parents that embittered him against humanity. A similiar separation (from Scott in this case) is what I think will drive Jean to apostasize against Xavier.

[imaperson2]

by the way... i love how u make these posts lightning... ur little essay posts... very cool to read

[JustABill]

Brava Lightning! Brava! It's magnifcent. Truely beautiful. I was just thinking about this earlier tonight myself. It really is the best and most logical way for Jean to go all the way evil, and even outright kill Xavier. Of course, the only problem with this theory is, if she kills herself in the end to save the day, what would send her to the point of realizing. ''Oh god, I've done wrong. Scott's dead. Xavier's dead."

[Lightning Strykez!]

I know. But there are some hard headed fans out there. The fans who claim they'd walk out the theater if Scott dies (yeah right). They don't want Scott dead because it isn't faithfull to the sourse material.


And that's my point. This entire series has only loosely been based on the comics. There have been a LOT of liberties taken. So while characters like Collossus, Rachel, Xavier, Jean, Psylocke, etc., can die and return over and over, that's not going to happen in the movieverse.

I think they might kill Cyclops, but not for arbitrary, empty reasons like revenge on the actor James Marsden. I believe the writers think his death will escalate Jean's reasons for losing her mind.

[sebaa]

i really like the thing that JP wrote, the thing that jean and scott died together, a type of romeo and juliet! that will be so dramatic ,strong and shoking! i dont want that these charactes died no way! but if the died this its a very beautifull and dramatic way

[The Hurricane]

but if jean is going to turn to the darkside which is the anti human side. Wouldnt a human have to inflict pain in her life like by killing scott or the prof X

[JP]

Brava Lightning! Brava! It's magnifcent. Truely beautiful. I was just thinking about earlier tonight myself. It really is the best and most logical way for Jean to go all the way evil, and even outright kill Xavier. Of course, the only problem with this theory is, if she kills herself in the end to save the day, what would send her to the point of realizing. ''Oh god, I've done wrong. Scott's dead. Xavier's dead."

I think you've just answered your own question.

She rises to see the man she loves standing before her, but something goes terribly wrong. Now he is gone. This drives her insane. Xavier tries to reason with her, but of course it will not work. She goes out on her own, thus finding Magneto.

Now Magneto, being the devilishly evil being that he is, will see the beauty that is Jean. Someone who is not restricted by the laws of man. A true mutant with imense power. Power that he had to sit back and watch his 'friend' take away. Magneto will use this to his advantage. He'll toy with her mind and pin her against Xavier. This will drive Jean even farther away from sanity, thus murdering Xavier.

Now comes the redemption. She will see the error of her ways, an hopefully be an aid to the X-Men in the final battle. Only to die/vanish in the end in a final climactic rush leaving not a single trace of her exsistance.

Jean MUST die a hero. If she dies an evil *****, then that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[JustABill]

The problem with this is Famke's performance might come off so fierce and so crazy, that it just might logicistical seem weird for suddenly in the middle of the war for Jean to come to her own senses and say ''I've killed my father....and my lover...Oh god. I have to do something. I must redeem myself."

To me, it'd be much better if Cyclops/Storm/Wolverine, someone close to her that was still alive spoke to her, and she finally realized that ''Hey! I'm not in the right here".

[JP]

And that's my point. This entire series has only loosely been based on the comics. There have been a LOT of liberties taken. So while characters like Collossus, Rachel, Xavier, Jean, Psylocke, etc., can die and return over and over, that's not going to happen in the movieverse.

I think they might kill Cyclops, but not for arbitrary, empty reasons like revenge on the actor James Marsden. I believe the writers think his death will escalate Jean's reasons for losing her mind.

Very true. I just hope that these 'fans' go into X3 without the comics in the mind. If they do, they'll just end up hating this move a lot more than the first two.

[JP]

The problem with this is Famke's performance might come off so fierce and so crazy, that it just might logicistical seem weird for suddenly in the middle of the war for Jean to come to her own senses and say ''I've killed my father....and my lover...Oh god. I have to do something. I must redeem myself."

To me, it'd be much better if Cyclops/Storm/Wolverine, someone close to her that was still alive spoke to her, and she finally realized that ''Hey! I'm not in the right here".

I'm more than sure that will come into play somehow. And I'm almost certain that it will be Storm. The two will definately go at it at some point.

[sebaa]

i agree!!! jean must die as a Hero!! scot too!

[bosef982]

I think it's important to keep in mind that in the comics, it was Scott's psychic death that opened the floodgates for Dark Phoenix.

[The Hurricane]

hopefully not to many die. I want to see some X4

[berzerko89]

hmm... how about the theory of her rising from the dead? or was she really dead in the frist place? they should explain why she rose from the dead? and i dont want her to die at the end of the film... that would really suck. but if she dies as a hero... in the end realizing that she is good and she goes against the brotherhood she ends up using a great amount of power and she destroys herself... to avoid trying to be a grave problem to earth she just kills her self vanishes into thin air...

[CapBeerCino]

Even "rabid fanboys" have brains.

They do? Why thank you! I'm blushing.


What do you guys think the emotional impact of Scott's death would have on audiences?

None for an average moviegoer who didn't get to know Cyclops enough to care (and if X-3 won't do Cyke justice he never will.)
And for the X-fans watching the movie- let me ask you Lightning:
How would you feel if Storm bit the dust at the begining? (But really- try to relate to that kind of hype)
I don't think you'd care if her death was cheap or the single most important moment in the film. You'd just want her alive and fighting with the rest of the team.
That basically it- Cyke dying is wrong. It doesn't fit right and has a feeling of having more to do with studio politics than with story telling.

You said "it would ensure that Scott's death would not be an "empty" thing" but that's like saying "it will suck, but that way it will suck the least".
Why should he die at the first place?

Jean kills Scott, then Charles and then the x-men bring her down. And?
I want to see the X-men talking her out of it. I don't want to leave the cinema with a sad/bitter feeling at the end of the trilogy.

"I believe it could be a powerful element in this movie"
That maybe, but it's not a price worth paying imo.

[Daniella]

I read the thread and found just one thing wrong with your theory, Lightning Strikes...

Avi Arad ( it was him, if I.not mistaken ) said that most fans forget that heros die and come back after, in the comics... if Cyke will be the one that will bring Jean back, how could they kill him *right* when he went to Alkali Lake ???

Now, if he dies, trying to help Jean to overcome the Dark Phoenix, we may have an emotional death... but this is another story...

Dany

[Hugh'sMrs]

Because Jean 'died' and came back, even if the whole cast is wiped out in X3, people are going to think 'oh well, who cares they're just gonna be alive in the next film anyway.'

I don't think any of the deaths will have much of an impact.

[X-Maniac]

The audience for what happens will fall into three categories...

1) 'Mainstream' non-fan moviegoers who do not know the source material well, or do not know it at all.
2) Comicbook readers who are NOT fans of Cyclops - they either don't like him or have no strong feeling for him
3) Comicbook readers who ARE fans of Cyclops - he is their favourite character, or one of their favourites.

Groups 1 and 2 will accept his death if it is done meaningfully; some may accept it even if it is done in a bad, superficial way.

Group 3 does not want his death in any circumstances.

[X-Maniac]

And i think they will say that Jean did NOT die in X2, but simply was swept away, assumed dead and has been evolving in some sort of suspended state, perhaps an energy cocoon somewhere. I hope she does not physically die in X3, but somehow vanishes in a fiery flash.

A battle with Cyclops and Jean in X3 would be too much like what happened in X2 and should be avoided. But I can see her feeding on his optic blasts as an energy source when she 'awakens' at the lake.

[Aiden]

I fit into the number 2 category. I'm not bothered if Cyke dies, but I dont his death to just be something to demonstrate Jean's power. I want his death to at least have some meaning.

[Daniella]

Jean died and come back, but she's Phoenix now... the others aren't... and Cyke shouldn't fight with her... he just will help bring her back... he will have to be alive to do it... even if he and she die after...

Dany

[The Batman]

its not gonna have any emotional impact...because the general audience dont care bout cyclops

And it may have an emotional impact on jean fans...but the wolvie and storm fans wont care, hell, some of them will be happy to see cyke go. and cyke fans will be too pissed of to feel sad

[JustABill]

Okay..

Cykes would matter to casual fans of the series. You know why? He has had development. I am a fan of Cyclops now (thanks to Octoberist and Marsden's portrayal in the first two films), didn't give a damn about him before.

Marsden's Cyclops was shown to be the loyalist he is to Xavier in the first film, he was shown to bear a somewhat brotherly grudge towards Logan, he was shown to be the X-Men's commanding and stead fast leader.

In the second film, he was shown to be some of these elements once again, and his love for Jean really shines through during her final moments of life. So to say that he has no development, and the general audience won't care if he goes, is just a flat out excuse by the very die hard Cykes fans, who just can't accept Cykes death in any form/whatsoever.

[The Batman]

its not gonna have any emotional impact...because the general audience dont care bout cyclops

And it may have an emotional impact on jean fans...but the wolvie and storm fans wont care, hell, some of them will be happy to see cyke go. and cyke fans will be too pissed of to feel sad

[JustABill]

Yeah, did you just copy and post your previous response, cause you know I am indeed right? I know about 10 general fans (All girls, and not all of them find Marsden attractive) of the movies now, who say that if Cyclops dies, they will be sad.

[The Batman]

Okay..

Cykes would matter to casual fans of the series. You know why? He has had development. I am a fan of Cyclops now (thanks to Octoberist and Marsden's portrayal in the first two films), didn't give a damn about him before.

Marsden's Cyclops was shown to be the loyalist he is to Xavier in the first film, he was shown to bear a somewhat brotherly grudge towards Logan, he was shown to be the X-Men's commanding and stead fast leader.

In the second film, he was shown to be some of these elements once again, and his love for Jean really shines through during her final moments of life. So to say that he has no development, and the general audience won't care if he goes, is just a flat out excuse by the very die hard Cykes fans, who just can't accept Cykes death in any form/whatsoever.


He has no development.

Where's the insecurities Scott has? We barely have any idea of Scott's actual CHARACTER, save that he loves jean, and hates logan. He hasnt been portrayed as leader since the first movie. In fact, hes been portrayed as a moron. Asking Storm to fry magneto in a place made of copper? About to blast down a door that, he should know, would kill the professor? He comes off as an ass, and most people would rather see logan and jean together. Cant accept his death? I'm sorry, but you're full of it. Had you gone into cyclops' actual thread on the hype, most agree that, if he got actual development and screentime, they wouldnt mind his death. and by the way, the hypocracy of this thread is amazing. had your favorite character been killed, you know you'd all be crying too. especially if your favorite character's storm

[The Batman]

no...that was a double post. And you're not right. 10 general fans, out of millions of movie goers, who happen to support your point? Yeah, i was right...you are full of it.

[JustABill]

Cyclops always has come off as somewhat of an ass, so if you ask me, there's Cyclops right there. :o.

[The Batman]

That shows how much you really dont know the character. He may come off as an ass, but thats only because he does whats necessary. in the films...he's just an ass....

[JustABill]

Whatever. You are just obviously splitting hairs. :rolleyes:. If general audience's didn't care about Cyclops, then there wouldn't be that story of Hugh Jackman being in the toy store and finding out the little kid's favorite was Cyclops.

[Angry Sentinel]

That shows how much you really dont know the character. He may come off as an ass, but thats only because he does whats necessary. in the films...he's just an ass....

WHAT HE SAID!!!.. sorry Bill, but I got The Batman's back on this one.

The only impact his death will have emotionally will be due to the fact that he was an original movieverse character. No-one I know cares "deeply" about the movie cyclops "solely" because of his movie portrayal.


Sorry I've been away people... but the Sentinel is back.

[JustABill]

I understand why you die hards are upset though, this logical should be his film, seeing as it's Dark Phoenix. It really should.

[The Batman]

Whatever. You are just obviously splitting hairs. :rolleyes:. If general audience's didn't care about Cyclops, then there wouldn't be that story of Hugh Jackman being in the toy store and finding out the little kid's favorite was Cyclops.

the General Audience dosent care about Cyclops. you can grasp at as many straws as you can, but until i get some concrete proof, other than something about ten friends or some kid in a store(By the way, even if i did believe that, would only amount to 11 out of millions giving a rats ass about scott), than i still belive no one really cares about cyclops

[The Blob]

I wouldnt say no one cares about Cyclops

Now Rogue on the other hand... i dont think anyone not even the people making the film give a rats ass about the charcter

[The Blob]

whicyh i guess is okay because i to never really cared for her i thought her mutant powers were always dull imo

[WorthyStevens]

the General Audience dosent care about Cyclops. you can grasp at as many straws as you can, but until i get some concrete proof, other than something about ten friends or some kid in a store(By the way, even if i did believe that, would only amount to 11 out of millions giving a rats ass about scott), than i still belive no one really cares about cyclops

Where do you get that people don't care about movie Cyclops? Where do you get that the general audience doesn't care about Cyclops? Where's the concrete proof on that?

I'm not trying to jump on your back or anything (I apologize if I am), but you seem so sure that noone likes movie Cyclops.

[Valorman]

I understand what your getting at Lightning. and although im a huge cyclops fan and i really hate the idea of him being killed, the way you put it does seem like a justifiable way to make jean "go over to the dark side" in a sence.My only fear is that the general auidence has really barley gotten to know scott.i mean i know for certian those who wereint fans of the character or the x-men in general were even more focused on wolverines greif than on scotts.which is pretty fustrating considdering scott lost something more important in a sence.

He hasint gotten a chance to connect with the auidence for his death to mean what it should. His death may effect the universe and jean in turn but the auidence will mostly shrug it off, as he simply isint important enough to them.

ive said it before, they made wolverine their friend and they made scott their aquantiance.

[lordofthenerds]

Unlike most people here I wouldn't really care if Cyclops dies in the movie. Maybe they could make the scene with him and Jena good and dramatic. Good theory Lightning.:up:

[The Guard]

I don't think Jean died. I think she evolved, and I think, during X3, she will continue to evolve beyond basic human emotion and attachment. Cyclops's loss (or apparent loss, or coma, or what have you) may well be a part of that, and if it is, and it's done well, then it can work well.

As for how Cyclops has been portrayed, some of you need to grow up. Last time I checked, Cyclops was not the one initiating conflict between himself and Wolverine. That was, as it tends to be, Wolverine. Cyclops is also not the person trying to steal another person's girlfriend/fiancee. So why the hell does he come across as an ass in your minds? Because he's defending himself in some small way from what is essentially Wolverine's emotional abuses? Cyclops has not been portrayed as a moron, he has been portrayed as a less-than-perfect leader, which is not exactly a bastardization of is character. Read a damned comic book. And stop ignoring all the things in the movies that show that the man does think logically in battle.

[The Batman]

Where do you get that people don't care about movie Cyclops? Where do you get that the general audience doesn't care about Cyclops? Where's the concrete proof on that?

I'm not trying to jump on your back or anything (I apologize if I am), but you seem so sure that noone likes movie Cyclops.

Because, when most people talk about the scott/jean/logan triangle, its always said the that logan should be with jean. one review of x-men described cyclops as the ******* jock boyfriend, and logan as the guy the girl should really be with with.When i say to people that scott's my favorite character, they laugh at me and tell me hes lame.

[The Blob]

I think Scott is a very cool charcter i personally always liked his great leadership abilities and how much he cares for the x-men

[The Batman]

so why dont we get that in the films?

[WorthyStevens]

Because, when most people talk about the scott/jean/logan triangle, its always said the that logan should be with jean. one review of x-men described cyclops as the ******* jock boyfriend, and logan as the guy the girl should really be with with.When i say to people that scott's my favorite character, they laugh at me and tell me hes lame.

I think the ending of X2 gave a different side to Scott. A more vulnerable side, from when mind-controlled Cyclops realized that he just attacked the love of his life, right up until the end.

X3 should continue Scott's emotional and personal growth. The ending to X2 also showed a kind of understanding between Logan and himself, and it should show into X3.

If he indeed dies, the writers will HAVE to make Cyclops grow further, and have the audience understand him a little better. Otherwise, the reasoning for Jean's descent into madness will be meaningless.

[The Batman]

Cyclop's scene at the end was great...but even THEN they decided to focus on logan more

[The Guard]

X3 should continue Scott's emotional and personal growth. The ending to X2 also showed a kind of understanding between Logan and himself, and it should show into X3.

There's definitely the potential for growth in there relationship to happen, and I believe it will. We know that Logan and Cyclops are at Alkali when Jean rises. You can't possibly put them in that situation and not have some interaction and character growth.

[WorthyStevens]

There's definitely the potential for growth in there relationship to happen, and I believe it will. We know that Logan and Cyclops are at Alkali when Jean rises. You can't possibly put them in that situation and not have some interaction and character growth.

Exactly. It wouldn't be just Jean who would be affected by Scott's untimely death, Logan would also, after what we've seen from the end of X2.

[The Guard]

Because, when most people talk about the scott/jean/logan triangle, its always said the that logan should be with jean. one review of x-men described cyclops as the ******* jock boyfriend, and logan as the guy the girl should really be with with.When i say to people that scott's my favorite character, they laugh at me and tell me hes lame.

Your friends strike me as far too concerned with what society thinks about masculinity. Try setting them straight by pointing out all the cool things Cyclops does. And if that doesn't work, steal their girlfriends and then point out that that's what Wolverine did. See how they feel. :)

[CapBeerCino]

There's definitely the potential for growth in there relationship to happen, and I believe it will. We know that Logan and Cyclops are at Alkali when Jean rises. You can't possibly put them in that situation and not have some interaction and character growth.

You don't know if they are there at the same time.

[The Guard]

And yet I'm pretty sure that they are. Odd.

[FireFli]

lightning I luv these discussions! i think audiences would feel the point of jeans going evil on the xmen. scoot's death would make sense to them.

[The Batman]

Your friends strike me as far too concerned with what society thinks about masculinity. Try setting them straight by pointing out all the cool things Cyclops does. And if that doesn't work, steal their girlfriends and then point out that that's what Wolverine did. See how they feel. :)


but the thing is...i shouldnt have to do that. Claremonts Cyclops, Millar's Cyclops...all good portrayals. the filmmakers shouldve done more regarding scott. They may have covered the basics, but unlike with logan, jean, and everyone else, they dont really go deeper.

i think its just that scott is as charismatic or "cool" like logan or nightcrawler to the general audience. thats why movie cyke should be more like the ultimate version

[The Batman]

And yet I'm pretty sure that they are. Odd.

if scott dies, hes supposed to die before logan reaches the lake

[The Guard]

but the thing is...i shouldnt have to do that. Claremonts Cyclops, Millar's Cyclops...all good portrayals. the filmmakers shouldve done more regarding scott. They may have covered the basics, but unlike with logan, jean, and everyone else, they dont really go deeper.

i think its just that scott is as charismatic or "cool" like logan or nightcrawler to the general audience. thats why movie cyke should be more like the ultimate version

No you shouldn't. The movie does it for you. And where did you want them to go, and explore about Cyclops (within reason, obviously)? And didn't the ULTIMATE version of Cyclops present the reckless, didn't-think-things through version that people claimed to see in X-MEN?

[tonytr1687]

I'm kinda sick of Lightening's attempts to make EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' THING in X3 sound positive. I mean come on...stop denying the inevitable and realize that there's probably gonna be some things in this movie that shouldnt have happened. Whether its a good catalyst or not, Cyclops should not just be there for the benefit of Jean's character. While the Cyke we have seen so far is fairly accurate to the comics IMO, it doesnt mean hes been done justice. He needs his time to shine and when I say that I mean his character needs to be developed a whole lot more, just like Storm, for his death to mean anything to the general public other than a contrived way to send Jean on a destructive path. Cyclops is too important a character to just be some casualty that makes Jean go evil. And its not even a realistic catalyst anyway. "Oh I just killed my boyfriend so I'm gonna go kill more ppl." Plus theres already the whole deal with Xavier which is a much better and realistic catalyst for why she goes bad, and therefore makes the point of Cyke's death completely moot.

1. Jean should not die at the end b/c we've alredy seen that. Complete redundancy
2. And because Jean must live...Cyke must live.

[The Batman]

The Ultimate version's attitude, not his skills. I think Ultimate Cyke would be more appealing to the general audience, match that with the seasoned skills of claremonts cyke, and you have a good match

Where i wanted them to go? I wanted to see more insight into his character. his need to have control. Why exactly he loves jean, and show that they beong together so that the general audience realizes that logans being a creep. For X2, i wanted to see him over the course of the film. Show him being captured and his thoughts and feelings. Maybe show us more about what he really thinks of logan, or what he thinks about leading the x-men. He dosent have to have a logan sized role. Wolvie's the most marketable x-man, i get that. but there shouldve been more substance

[The Batman]

I'm kinda sick of Lightening's attempts to make EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' THING in X3 sound positive. I mean come on...stop denying the inevitable and realize that there's probably gonna be some things in this movie that shouldnt have happened. Whether its a good catalyst or not, Cyclops should not just be there for the benefit of Jean's character. While the Cyke we have seen so far is fairly accurate to the comics IMO, it doesnt mean hes been done justice. He needs his time to shine and when I say that I mean his character needs to be developed a whole lot more, just like Storm, for his death to mean anything to the general public other than a contrived way to send Jean on a destructive path. Cyclops is too important a character to just be some casualty that makes Jean go evil. And its not even a realistic catalyst anyway. "Oh I just killed my boyfriend so I'm gonna go kill more ppl." Plus theres already the whole deal with Xavier which is a much better and realistic catalyst for why she goes bad, and therefore makes the point of Cyke's death completely moot.

1. Jean should not die at the end b/c we've alredy seen that. Complete redundancy
2. And because Jean must live...Cyke must live.

thats a problem i have with this board...it seems to many that scott and jean are joined at the hip, and that one cant survive without the other. Both can thrive independently.

[tonytr1687]

thats a problem i have with this board...it seems to many that scott and jean are joined at the hip, and that one cant survive without the other. Both can thrive independently.

Yes but do you relly wanna see Jean alive at the end and fallen into the arms of Wolverine? And while Cyclops was killed for a reason that is rendered moot by other plot points?

[The Guard]

The Ultimate version's attitude, not his skills. I think Ultimate Cyke would be more appealing to the general audience, match that with the seasoned skills of claremonts cyke, and you have a good match.

Examples, please. Of this "attitude" you wish he had. ULTIMATE Cyclops's attitude, as I recall, at least in the first arc, was "passionate about his mission, but reckless and unfocused".

Where i wanted them to go? I wanted to see more insight into his character. his need to have control.

He did have control, and the reasons for the need for that were made pretty clear. Would you like examples of the scenes that make it fairly obvious? Because there are several of them.

Why exactly he loves jean, and show that they beong together so that the general audience realizes that logans being a creep.

Why does he love Jean in the comics?

And the general audience can't realize that Logan is being a creep from the insults and emotional abuse he subjects everyone to? That's pathetic if they can't.

For X2, i wanted to see him over the course of the film. Show him being captured and his thoughts and feelings. Maybe show us more about what he really thinks of logan, or what he thinks about leading the x-men. He dosent have to have a logan sized role. Wolvie's the most marketable x-man, i get that. but there shouldve been more substance

Substance requires screentime. Obviously there wasn't a whole lot of extra screentime to play with. And showing Cyclops captured would pretty much eliminate any of the surprise factor of him attacking Jean, Magneto and Mystique.

Incidentally, I like how people continue to just assume that Cyclops is going to die.

[The Batman]

In the Ultimate comics, he's the general everyone listens to. People follow his orders, which in the movies, it seems like people dont do alot. He's quite a charismatic character compared to the 616 counterpart, considered the coolest guy in school till logan came around.

As for X2, there was a planned subplot with Cyclops in the prison. I dont think they shouldve shown cyke getting that mind control drug, but just so him in prison talking to inmates or something like that. hell, have him talk to toad or something. Or have stryker mention some facts about scott that will give us betyter insight into his character.

The General audience cant realize logans a creep cause hes the hero, the cool guy, the badass. they are stupid in that respect

[CapBeerCino]

Cyclops is too important a character to just be some casualty that makes Jean go evil.

Bingo.

[The Batman]

Yes but do you relly wanna see Jean alive at the end and fallen into the arms of Wolverine? And while Cyclops was killed for a reason that is rendered moot by other plot points?

who says that necessarily has to happen?

[The Guard]

In the Ultimate comics, he's the general everyone listens to. People follow his orders, which in the movies, it seems like people dont do alot. He's quite a charismatic character compared to the 616 counterpart, considered the coolest guy in school till logan came around.

Seems like people listened to him in X-MEN...but maybe I completely imagined the orders he gave, him leading them around, and Wolverine, Storm and Jean listening to him.

As for X2, there was a planned subplot with Cyclops in the prison. I dont think they shouldve shown cyke getting that mind control drug, but just so him in prison talking to inmates or something like that. hell, have him talk to toad or something. Or have stryker mention some facts about scott that will give us betyter insight into his character.

Fine. Whatever. That would have been decent. But this "Cyclops sucks because they didn't go this route" attitude some have is fairly amusing.

The General audience cant realize logans a creep cause hes the hero, the cool guy, the badass. they are stupid in that respect.

They are indeed.

As for Logan ending up with Jean in X3, I seriously doubt it. Partially because Jean rejected Logan in X2, and partially because they never did anything to begin with but flirt. Flirting doesn't equal love. It generally, and definitely in X-MEn and X2, equals a basic attraction between members of the opposite sex.

[MJB]

Whoa...before we get off-subject, allow me to make the focus of this thread a bit more clear: It's not meant to be a "the funeral is for this person" etc., nor to go off on the "screentime" thing.

What do you guys think the emotional impact of Scott's death would have on audiences? And do you think it could be an event powerful enough to make moviegoers believe that Dark Phoenix is justified--without the comic book's "Phoenix Force" from the universe.


Emotional impact on the audience? Are we talking about the underused and underdeveloped Cyke? Cause if we are then I don't see it having any impact cause the character was never developed to the point where anyone but diehard fans of the comic care.

It's a bad movie to kill of prof x and or Cyclops. That never worked in the comics and it sure as hell isn't going to fly in the movies. Cyclops has never ever even got the chance to shine in the films. I'm just angry over this whole mess cuase I know it's going to turn out true. How much wolvie do we need? I want to see cool powers and not a man always slashing. Wolvie is cool and i like the character, but in terms of power displays he's boring.

[Avalanche]

As for Logan ending up with Jean in X3, I seriously doubt it. Partially because Jean rejected Logan in X2, and partially because they never did anything to begin with but flirt. Flirting doesn't equal love. It generally, and definitely in X-MEn and X2, equals a basic attraction between members of the opposite sex.
You're wrong.

They have a very steamy interaction in the scene we see from the trailer where she is in the lab.

I seriously doubt she will end up with him though. I'm guessing we can put the interaction down to her confused state.

[Specter313]

You're wrong.

They have a very steamy interaction in the scene we see from the trailer where she is in the lab.

I seriously doubt she will end up with him though. I'm guessing we can put the interaction down to her confused state.

Again, you shouldn't be referencing anything from Gina.

[Kira]

You're wrong.

They have a very steamy interaction in the scene we see from the trailer where she is in the lab.

I seriously doubt she will end up with him though. I'm guessing we can put the interaction down to her confused state.

:eek: Are you serious? How do you know this? If it´s true... NOOOOOO!

[Avalanche]

Again, you shouldn't be referencing anything from Gina.
I've seen a still of this. It's not part of a review or any such thing. Completely legit. Like I say, I'm presuming Jean is confused when she awakes.

[Kira]

I've seen a still of this. It's not part of a review or any such thing. Completely legit. Like I say, I'm presuming Jean is confused when she awakes.

:( Oh well, it´s pity that they take that road, but what can you do...

[Almighty Pejo]

The psychology behind Scott's death turning Jean into a lunatic is a plausible plot device, and that's exactly why it sucks: it's a plot device. It has nothing to do with developing Scott's character, getting into his mind or exploring him in the least. His character (and his demise) is being included as nothing more than a way to make Jean Grey insane, because apparently, being dead and miraculously returning to life with unlimited power doesn't carry the psychological impact it once did. No to mention these reasons give too many human motivations to the character, especially at a point in her character arc where she should be evolved beyond such things. Saying "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she feels inexorably compelled to do so," is much more profound, frightening and dire than "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she accidentally killed her boyfriend and her psuedo-father was a bastard," simply because it lacks relateable explanation providing a human motivation. We really shouldn't be given a reason and explanation for why the Phoenix does what she does because it lowers her to a human level, where she should not be. We shouldn't be given ways to relate to her since she is supposed to be above us. She shouldn't want to destroy everything because she has been wronged, but rather because the end has simply come and she is doing what she was always meant to do. If they are taking the approach that Phoenix is evolution itself, then doesn't it ring more true that its motivations would simply be to see the ever-changing winds continue to flow? She must destroy everything so life may begin anew...that's the nature of the Phoenix. She wants to destroy everything because her lover is dead...that's the nature of a mortal woman. But hey...what do I know about the Phoenix?

[Avalanche]

:( Oh well, it´s pity that they take that road, but what can you do...
I really don't think they'll focus on it much. Jean is with Magneto for much of the film, and there's going to be a lot going on. I too don't fully understand why they've chosen to take that route. It seems strange, particularly if Jean kills Cyclops as rumoured.

I've only seen a still, so unfortunately, whilst I know it happens, I don't know why it happens.

[Kira]

I really don't think they'll focus on it much. Jean is with Magneto for much of the film, and there's going to be a lot going on. I too don't fully understand why they've chosen to take that route. It seems strange, particularly if Jean kills Cyclops as rumoured.

I've only seen a still, so unfortunately, whilst I know it happens, I don't know why it happens.

It might make more sense when we see the movie... Hopefully. I dont´t want that scene to be there just so it pleases Jean/Wolverine shippers. :( Maybe it has something to do with Wolverine comforting Jean...?

[Valorman]

The psychology behind Scott's death turning Jean into a lunatic is a plausible plot device, and that's exactly why it sucks: it's a plot device. It has nothing to do with developing Scott's character, getting into his mind or exploring him in the least. His character (and his demise) is being included as nothing more than a way to make Jean Grey insane, because apparently, being dead and miraculously returning to life with unlimited power doesn't carry the psychological impact it once did. No to mention these reasons give too many human motivations to the character, especially at a point in her character arc where she should be evolved beyond such things. Saying "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she feels inexorably compelled to do so," is much more profound, frightening and dire than "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she accidentally killed her boyfriend and her psuedo-father was a bastard," simply because it lacks relateable explanation providing a human motivation. We really shouldn't be given a reason and explanation for why the Phoenix does what she does because it lowers her to a human level, where she should not be. We shouldn't be given ways to relate to her since she is supposed to be above us. She shouldn't want to destroy everything because she has been wronged, but rather because the end has simply come and she is doing what she was always meant to do. If they are taking the approach that Phoenix is evolution itself, then doesn't it ring more true that its motivations would simply be to see the ever-changing winds continue to flow? She must destroy everything so life may begin anew...that's the nature of the Phoenix. She wants to destroy everything because her lover is dead...that's the nature of a mortal woman. But hey...what do I know about the Phoenix?

i think..i just might compleatly agree with you

[tonytr1687]

The psychology behind Scott's death turning Jean into a lunatic is a plausible plot device, and that's exactly why it sucks: it's a plot device. It has nothing to do with developing Scott's character, getting into his mind or exploring him in the least. His character (and his demise) is being included as nothing more than a way to make Jean Grey insane, because apparently, being dead and miraculously returning to life with unlimited power doesn't carry the psychological impact it once did. No to mention these reasons give too many human motivations to the character, especially at a point in her character arc where she should be evolved beyond such things. Saying "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she feels inexorably compelled to do so," is much more profound, frightening and dire than "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she accidentally killed her boyfriend and her psuedo-father was a bastard," simply because it lacks relateable explanation providing a human motivation. We really shouldn't be given a reason and explanation for why the Phoenix does what she does because it lowers her to a human level, where she should not be. We shouldn't be given ways to relate to her since she is supposed to be above us. She shouldn't want to destroy everything because she has been wronged, but rather because the end has simply come and she is doing what she was always meant to do. If they are taking the approach that Phoenix is evolution itself, then doesn't it ring more true that its motivations would simply be to see the ever-changing winds continue to flow? She must destroy everything so life may begin anew...that's the nature of the Phoenix. She wants to destroy everything because her lover is dead...that's the nature of a mortal woman. But hey...what do I know about the Phoenix?

I agree completely.

[GothicPowerMix1]

The psychology behind Scott's death turning Jean into a lunatic is a plausible plot device, and that's exactly why it sucks: it's a plot device. It has nothing to do with developing Scott's character, getting into his mind or exploring him in the least. His character (and his demise) is being included as nothing more than a way to make Jean Grey insane, because apparently, being dead and miraculously returning to life with unlimited power doesn't carry the psychological impact it once did. No to mention these reasons give too many human motivations to the character, especially at a point in her character arc where she should be evolved beyond such things. Saying "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she feels inexorably compelled to do so," is much more profound, frightening and dire than "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she accidentally killed her boyfriend and her psuedo-father was a bastard," simply because it lacks relateable explanation providing a human motivation. We really shouldn't be given a reason and explanation for why the Phoenix does what she does because it lowers her to a human level, where she should not be. We shouldn't be given ways to relate to her since she is supposed to be above us. She shouldn't want to destroy everything because she has been wronged, but rather because the end has simply come and she is doing what she was always meant to do. If they are taking the approach that Phoenix is evolution itself, then doesn't it ring more true that its motivations would simply be to see the ever-changing winds continue to flow? She must destroy everything so life may begin anew...that's the nature of the Phoenix. She wants to destroy everything because her lover is dead...that's the nature of a mortal woman. But hey...what do I know about the Phoenix?

a1ant email this to fox

[CapBeerCino]

Again, you shouldn't be referencing anything from Gina.

Do you have Gina's review? If so could you pm me? I hate not knowing what the buzz is all about...

[tonytr1687]

Do you have Gina's review? If so could you pm me? I hate not knowing what the buzz is all about...

Just go to Aint It Cool News if you wanna read it.

[OutcryX]

they took it down

[tonytr1687]

they took it down

Oh I had no idea...sure took them a while. But could that mean there was some truth to it if Fox had them take it down?

[The Blob]

Yeahd someone pm this review and these banned photos

Am not gonna get banned for asking for the photos through pm am i?????

[Lightning Strykez!]

The psychology behind Scott's death turning Jean into a lunatic is a plausible plot device, and that's exactly why it sucks: it's a plot device. It has nothing to do with developing Scott's character, getting into his mind or exploring him in the least. His character (and his demise) is being included as nothing more than a way to make Jean Grey insane, because apparently, being dead and miraculously returning to life with unlimited power doesn't carry the psychological impact it once did. No to mention these reasons give too many human motivations to the character, especially at a point in her character arc where she should be evolved beyond such things. Saying "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she feels inexorably compelled to do so," is much more profound, frightening and dire than "The Phoenix wishes to destroy all in her path because she accidentally killed her boyfriend and her psuedo-father was a bastard," simply because it lacks relateable explanation providing a human motivation. We really shouldn't be given a reason and explanation for why the Phoenix does what she does because it lowers her to a human level, where she should not be. We shouldn't be given ways to relate to her since she is supposed to be above us. She shouldn't want to destroy everything because she has been wronged, but rather because the end has simply come and she is doing what she was always meant to do. If they are taking the approach that Phoenix is evolution itself, then doesn't it ring more true that its motivations would simply be to see the ever-changing winds continue to flow? She must destroy everything so life may begin anew...that's the nature of the Phoenix. She wants to destroy everything because her lover is dead...that's the nature of a mortal woman. But hey...what do I know about the Phoenix?


An interesting concept; one that harkens back to the books. However, you and I both know that we are not dealing with the books. We are dealing with Hollywood--and this is a film that is designed to bring in the masses. If this franchise had been launched in a different manner sans "realism", then yes, I could see your theory above making the most sense.

However, since everything has to match the pattern that Singer already established, they are not going to create Dark Phoenix as some power-hungry psycho that destroys life because that life has exhausted its purpose, or is a waste of time. Audiences would be lost in that--because it's doesn't fit the logic of the series' existing "realistic" tone.

Revenge is an age-old concept that everyone will relate to.

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm kinda sick of Lightening's attempts to make EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' THING in X3 sound positive. I mean come on...stop denying the inevitable and realize that there's probably gonna be some things in this movie that shouldnt have happened.

Uh hold up..."EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' THING"? Exaggerate much?

Just because I've chosen to expand my views beyond yours doesn't mean I'm "denying" anything. It simply means I have a different point of view and have chosen to share it with you and others. You are not required to agree with it, but you can at least respect it.


Whether its a good catalyst or not, Cyclops should not just be there for the benefit of Jean's character. While the Cyke we have seen so far is fairly accurate to the comics IMO, it doesnt mean hes been done justice. He needs his time to shine and when I say that I mean his character needs to be developed a whole lot more, just like Storm, for his death to mean anything to the general public other than a contrived way to send Jean on a destructive path. Cyclops is too important a character to just be some casualty that makes Jean go evil. And its not even a realistic catalyst anyway. "Oh I just killed my boyfriend so I'm gonna go kill more ppl." Plus theres already the whole deal with Xavier which is a much better and realistic catalyst for why she goes bad, and therefore makes the point of Cyke's death completely moot.

1. Jean should not die at the end b/c we've alredy seen that. Complete redundancy
2. And because Jean must live...Cyke must live.


Scott has ALWAYS been there in these films for the benefit of Logan and Jean's character. Always. That's undeniable. You talk as if his role is somehow being drastically revamped.

And if you read the initial post, you'll realize that I don't believe Jean is going to just "kill more people because she killed her boyfriend". That'd be tacky and unrealistic. The post focuses on Scott's "death" being a realistic motive for her to defect to Magneto's side of the issue.

[The Blob]

so can anyone pm the review or banned pics?

And again will i my self get banned for asking this??

[Lightning Strykez!]

None for an average moviegoer who didn't get to know Cyclops enough to care (and if X-3 won't do Cyke justice he never will.)
And for the X-fans watching the movie- let me ask you Lightning:
How would you feel if Storm bit the dust at the begining? I don't think you'd care if her death was cheap or the single most important moment in the film. You'd just want her alive and fighting with the rest of the team.

I'm confused a bit here; what does Storm have to do with this? If Jean blew Storm away at the beginning of the film I highly doubt the emotional impact would be the same on Jean. The dynamics are completely different, because she's not attached to Storm like that.

We're talking about a woman accidentally vaporizing the man she loves, and realizing that her mentor was the reason she was set up for this failure. That doesn't sound just the slightest bit deep/interesting to you?

[Kurosawa]

There's no way his death would work. That's just a complete joke. To even think that it would is being a complete shill and an apologist for what will most likely be a horrid movie.

[cookiva]

There's no way his death would work. That's just a complete joke. To even think that it would is being a complete shill and an apologist for what will most likely be a horrid movie.

Mhmmm, pessmists. I love em.

[Kurosawa]

I've seen a still of this. It's not part of a review or any such thing. Completely legit. Like I say, I'm presuming Jean is confused when she awakes.

Then screw this movie, screw Ratner and screw FOX.

They call all take a direct trip to hell.

I'll make damn sure to see Superman Returns than many more times now.

[Lightning Strykez!]

There's no way his death would work. That's just a complete joke. To even think that it would is being a complete shill and an apologist for what will most likely be a horrid movie.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But let's not insult my intelligence just because you see things differently, capish? :o

[the a1ant]

The only way I'd accept Cyclops death, is if he and Jean died at the same time, in an emotional, heroic scene at the end of the film. I think Lightnin' once mentioned a 'Romeo & Juliet' type thing.

I think if it drives Jean crazier killing Cyke, and moves her along to becoming Dark Phoenix, then it's slightly acceptable (but still not great for Cyke's character). But both Cyke and Xavier dying would be just too much. Limit it to one. Put Xavier in a coma if you must, or Cyke...but not both!!! :eek:

[cookiva]

Then screw this movie, screw Ratner and screw FOX.

They call all take a direct trip to hell.

I'll make damn sure to see Superman Returns than many more times now.

Wow, thats sad. Someone hates an inanimate object....

[Kurosawa]

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But let's not insult my intelligence just because you see things differently, capish? :o

It has nothing to do with your intelligence. being a shill and an apologist does not make one stupid.

But there's absolutely no way it is good storytelling in any sense of the word. And it's definately made my decision for me. I won't be seeing X3 or any further X-Men movie projects. They can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

[Kurosawa]

Wow, thats sad. Someone hates an inanimate object....

Yeah, like nobody's ever hated a crap movie before.:rolleyes:

[Lightning Strykez!]

The only way I'd accept Cyclops death, is if he and Jean died at the same time, in an emotional, heroic scene at the end of the film. I think Lightnin' once mentioned a 'Romeo & Juliet' type thing.

Yes, that's the other option I held out a few months ago. But if the Romeo & Juliet concept doesn't happen, I believe this one might fit too. I can see her feeling betrayed by Xavier, not trusting anything he says from that point on, and then turning to Magneto for comfort. At that point "the grass looks greener" on the other side of the issue.

It's not supported by the comic books, but again, this whole ball was started rolling from a different source.

[cookiva]

It has nothing to do with your intelligence. being a shill and an apologist does not make one stupid.

But there's absolutely no way it is good storytelling in any sense of the word. And it's definately made my decision for me. I won't be seeing X3 or any further X-Men movie projects. They can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

I dont understand the logic here. You wont support anything, so they are forced to pull extreme plot twists, like the possibility of Cyclops dying. I dont understand...

[cookiva]

Yeah, like nobody's ever hated a crap movie before.:rolleyes:

Have you seen it???? I doubt it. How can you say that its going to be bad if you havent seen any part of it, and all you have heard of the film is from fatass Harry Knowles at AICN and script reviews which were already called out as being fake....

[Kurosawa]

Have you seen it???? I doubt it. How can you say that its going to be bad if you havent seen any part of it, and all you have heard of the film is from fatass Harry Knowles at AICN and script reviews which were already called out as being fake....

Doesn't matter. Since it's looking like Cyke's death is confirmed, I'll never see this POS.

You'd have an entirely different view of it if it was your favorite X-Man getting killed after being screwed over in the first two movies.

And it's hardly an imaginative plot twist. What it is is a petty bunch of **** to get back at Marsden, who is being professional enough to do the scene anyway.

[Lightning Strykez!]

It has nothing to do with your intelligence. being a shill and an apologist does not make one stupid.

Being called a shill (as in "studio shill") is an insult, just like being called an "apologist" is equally dismissive. A person can take various scenarios and think of ways it might make sense, but that doesn't mean they are "apologizing" for some sort of mistake, or working for the studio. That's some of the lamest reasoning I encounter on these boards. It's almost a sin to "think outside the box" here. What gives? :o

We are speculating at this point...none of us can confirm or deny what's going to happen. I'm just offering some food for thought, aka brainstorming.



But there's absolutely no way it is good storytelling in any sense of the word. And it's definately made my decision for me. I won't be seeing X3 or any further X-Men movie projects. They can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

IMO, that's taking it a bit to the extreme, but you'll have to convince a few million others to take a similiar stance before FOX or theaters see much of an impact.

[cookiva]

Doesn't matter. Since it's looking like Cyke's death is confirmed, I'll never see this POS.

You'd have an entirely different view of it if it was your favorite X-Man getting killed after being screwed over in the first two movies.

And it's hardly an imaginative plot twist. What it is is a petty bunch of **** to get back at Marsden, who is being professional enough to do the scene anyway.

Hahaha, you lost me at that. Thats like saying that since Nightcrawler (my second favorite character) is not going to be in X3, then Im not seeing it.

Oh, and my favorite is Iceman. If he were to die in X3, I would not be as pissy and baby like as you are right now.

[Kurosawa]

Being called a shill (as in "studio shill") is an insult, just like being called an "apologist" is equally dismissive. A person can take various scenarios and think of ways it might make sense, but that doesn't mean they are "apologizing" for some sort of mistake, or working for the studio. That's some of the lamest reasoning I encounter on these boards. It's almost a sin to "think outside the box" here. What gives? :o

We are speculating at this point...none of us can confirm or deny what's going to happen. I'm just offering some food for thought, aka brainstorming.

I know you really want these movies to be good and do well, but these attempts to put a happy face on what is pure crap didn't work with Dr. DINO in the travesty that was the FF movie, and they won't work here. Oh, I'm sure all the Wolverine and halle Berry zombies will be right there to see the movie, but as a story...nope, it's pure cheap shock crap and a petty slap in the face to Marsden.



IMO, that's taking it a bit to the extreme, but you'll have to convince a few million others to take a similiar stance before FOX or theaters see much of an impact.

I don't give a damn what other people do with their time or money. The only decision I can affect is my own. And it's just been made for me.

I would hope that any Cyclops fan would skip this POS, although I'm sure most of them won't. Hey, I can understand...I went to Batman and Robin in the theatres. Although it's got X3 beat for sure as far as I'm concerned.

[Yellow Cyclone]

i totally agree with pejo, kuro, and tony....jean killing cyke is just BAD writing/"story"-telling, or whatever you want to call it

it's just a tool to make jean all evil and defect to magneto, which in turn even lowers her character, b/c we all know that jean is smart, why dumb her down to some cliche psycho-with-uncontrollable-powers-because-she's-psycho?

i wish i could say more, but pejo summed it up pretty well :up:

[the a1ant]

They could've just had Cyke appear a little in the film, and then leave the team, and everything behind. The only sane reason I can picture them killing the character, is to benefit Jean's Dark Phoenix characterization. Which is exactly what it would be, right?

It's not supported by the comic books, but again, this whole ball was started rolling from a different source.

I actually really love that they don't follow the comics all the way (in terms of story). Keeping the characters like the comics is definitely needed, of course, but I like the different storys and plots, etc. That way we don't know everything going into the films.

[Kurosawa]

You know what would be a great deviation from the comics?

A 10 minute sequence of Wolverine and Storm getting brutally murdered.

Oh wait, it wouldn't be a great deviation for fans of those characters, now would it?

[Lightning Strykez!]

i totally agree with pejo, kuro, and tony....jean killing cyke is just BAD writing/"story"-telling, or whatever you want to call it

it's just a tool to make jean all evil and defect to magneto, which in turn even lowers her character, b/c we all know that jean is smart, why dumb her down to some cliche psycho-with-uncontrollable-powers-because-she's-psycho?

i wish i could say more, but pejo summed it up pretty well :up:


Okay.

Since you gentlemen have been so vocal about why this won't work....why don't you, Pejo, Kurosawa and Tony propose some *better* ways they could've introduced the Dark Phoenix element without bringing in the Shi'ar, outer space Cosmic Entities, and all of the other comic-booky stuff that would've made Bryan Singer's former films seem out-of-continuity?

And don't bring in some "She'd just be reborn insane" stuff because that's very passe and audiences would yawn at that. Can you reasonably answer that challenge? :cool:


*pops popcorn, waits*

[the a1ant]

If James wasn't filming Superman Returns, do you guys think Cyke would still have a tiny role? They haven't treated him too well in any of the films, IMO.

[cookiva]

You know what would be a great deviation from the comics?

A 10 minute sequence of Wolverine and Storm getting brutally murdered.

Oh wait, it wouldn't be a great deviation for fans of those characters, now would it?

Well, lets see. Who is a bigger star, Jackman and Halle, or Marsden. While the shock value to see either of the first two die would be big (I think Im alone in saying that seeing Logan die at the end of X3 would be amazing and just as shocking as Cyke), Marsden doesnt have the kind of power to change the script. Would you rather him be in the film, or not...

[cookiva]

If James wasn't filming Superman Returns, do you guys think Cyke would still have a tiny role? They haven't treated him too well in any of the films, IMO.

Again, another great point, A1nt. Now, we are sure to see Kurosawa say something along the lines of "Yes, but he might not die". Well, how do you know? Thats just as big of an assumption as yours that he will die in X3.

[Lightning Strykez!]

You know what would be a great deviation from the comics?

A 10 minute sequence of Wolverine and Storm getting brutally murdered.

Oh wait, it wouldn't be a great deviation for fans of those characters, now would it?

That comparison doesn't hold any water, and you know this Kurosawa. Wolverine and Storm are two of the most iconic X-Men and their popularity far outweighs that of Cykes by 150%. Plus, they are played by the franchise's most marketable/successful actors. And they are not married/tied to the film's central character, Dark Phoenix.

James Marsden and his character have nothing in common with any of those factors. It's sad...but true.

[Lightning Strykez!]

If James wasn't filming Superman Returns, do you guys think Cyke would still have a tiny role? They haven't treated him too well in any of the films, IMO.

Absolutely.

He'd have a role similar in length to what he had in X1. He would still be in Logan's shadow because the actor and character are not the biggest draws in this franchise. He is the love interest of one of the central players, but he is very much "the other man".

This is the path Cyclops has been placed on from day 1 in 1999. Logan is really filling his shoes in so many ways in this franchise, leader, fighter and lover to Jean. Cyclops has been a bystander in every film, so no, Superman Returns has nothing to do with it.

[Kurosawa]

Okay.

Since you gentlemen have been so vocal about why this won't work....why don't you, Pejo, Kurosawa and Tony propose some *better* ways they could've introduced the Dark Phoenix element without bringing in the Shi'ar, outer space Cosmic Entities, and all of the other comic-booky stuff that would've made Bryan Singer's former films seem out-of-continuity?

And don't bring in some "She'd just be reborn insane" stuff because that's very passe and audiences would yawn at that. Can you reasonably answer that challenge? :cool:


*pops popcorn, waits*

To be honest, I wouldn't have brought her in as Dark Phoenix right off the bat. She'd first need to be Phoenix for it to work. Then i'd develop the idea of the Phoenix power overwhelming her. Eventually she'd get drunk on the power and cause some kind of serious major disaster killing thousands. Then somehow or another the X-Men could get ahold of her and put a damper on her powers, which would lead to the final battle and her eventual suicide. You could easily do more down-to earth versions of what was done in the comics book versions of the saga.

But no, they have to be children and kill Marsden's character.

More time and money to see Superman for me I guess. This project is as dead to me as movie Cyclops now.

And yeah, they have screwed Cyclops in the other movies as well. That's why I didn't particularly care for them either. Hell, they've been screwing the character in the comics for years now as well.

Most people are idiots. Therefore Wolverine is incredibly popular.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Again, another great point, A1nt. Now, we are sure to see Kurosawa say something along the lines of "Yes, but he might not die". Well, how do you know? Thats just as big of an assumption as yours that he will die in X3.

Exactly!

If we go by that reasoning, then why are they "allegedly" killing of Professor X and Mystique too? They weren't filming Superman Returns, nor did they fall out of favor with the studio--yet they are rumored to die as well. So are they being eliminated due to some petty studio power play too?

Again, I think that is weak reasoning. Studios do not punish actors by killing off their characters. If they no longer want to do business with the actor, they either a.) recast the character or b.) simply refuse to renew the contract.

That's business.

[cookiva]

Exactly!

If we go by that reasoning, then why are they "allegedly" killing of Professor X and Mystique too? They weren't filming Superman Returns, nor did they fall out of favor with the studio--yet they are rumored to die as well. So are they being eliminated due to some petty studio power play too?

Again, I think that is weak reasoning. Studios do not punish actors by killing off their characters. If they no longer want to do business with the actor, they either a.) recast the character or b.) simply refuse to renew the contract.

That's business.

Oh ya!!! Why pay him if they are pissed off at him? They would recast the character...

[Lightning Strykez!]

To be honest, I wouldn't have brought her in as Dark Phoenix right off the bat. She'd first need to be Phoenix for it to work. Then i'd develop the idea of the Phoenix power overwhelming her. Eventually she'd get drunk on the power and cause some kind of serious major disaster killing thousands. Then somehow or another the X-Men could get ahold of her and put a damper on her powers, which would lead to the final battle and her eventual suicide. You could easily do more down-to earth versions of what was done in the comics book versions of the saga.

But no, they have to be children and kill Marsden's character.

More time and money to see Superman for me I guess. This project is as dead to me as movie Cyclops now.

And yeah, they have screwed Cyclops in the other movies as well. That's why I didn't particularly care for them either. Hell, they've been screwing the character in the comics for years now as well.

Most people are idiots. Therefore Wolverine is incredibly popular.

You didn't answer my question. It's not about how you would've started the franchise with Phoenix. The question was, how do you bring Dark Phoenix into Bryan's existing "Realism" universe?

You can't make a new puzzle with only 2 pieces left to put in.

[cookiva]

Hell, they've been screwing the character in the comics for years now as well.

Most people are idiots. Therefore Wolverine is incredibly popular.

These last 2 lines made me laugh my ass off!!! I mean, if he has been like that for years, then that is who he is, right? Then, you are mad that they portrayed him the way he is written??

Oh, and maybe, since Wolverine is so popular (meaning hundreds of thousands like him), and you are of 4 in this fight, that you are the idiotic one? I mean, its like this. Im sure there are a few people out there who hate music, but does that mean that all of the rest of the world is stupid because of what those few idiots said? Nope...

[Kurosawa]

These last 2 lines made me laugh my ass off!!! I mean, if he has been like that for years, then that is who he is, right? Then, you are mad that they portrayed him the way he is written??

Oh, and maybe, since Wolverine is so popular (meaning hundreds of thousands like him), and you are of 4 in this fight, that you are the idiotic one? I mean, its like this. Im sure there are a few people out there who hate music, but does that mean that all of the rest of the world is stupid because of what those few idiots said? Nope...


Nope, Cyclops is who is is in the comics from the 60's until about 1985. The past 20 years is just bad writing and the fact that Marvel pushes Wolverine down people's throats. Almost every character that he's encountered he's made them look bad.

And yes, anyone who doesn't follow popular opinion is clearly an idiot.:rolleyes:

Sorry, I think for myself. I always have.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Oh ya!!! Why pay him if they are pissed off at him? They would recast the character...


Um hmm.

That'd be tantamount to FOX saying "Bryan Singer dumped us! So to hell with the X-Men franchise! We'll get back at him by not renewing any of the contracts and we won't make any more X-Men movies! We'll teach him to leave us for Superman!"

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

PLEASE. Do you see how stupid that reads? Yet, some insinuate the same exact thing by saying that they're going to blow Scott away for filming another movie. Bah....poor reasoning IMO.

[Kurosawa]

These last 2 lines made me laugh my ass off!!! I mean, if he has been like that for years, then that is who he is, right? Then, you are mad that they portrayed him the way he is written??

Oh, and maybe, since Wolverine is so popular (meaning hundreds of thousands like him), and you are of 4 in this fight, that you are the idiotic one? I mean, its like this. Im sure there are a few people out there who hate music, but does that mean that all of the rest of the world is stupid because of what those few idiots said? Nope...


Nope, Cyclops is written correctly in the comics from the 60's until about 1985. The past 20 years is just bad writing and the fact that Marvel pushes Wolverine down people's throats. Almost every character that he's encountered he's made them look bad.

And yes, anyone who doesn't follow popular opinion is clearly an idiot.:rolleyes:

Sorry, I think for myself. I always have.

[cookiva]

Nope, Cyclops is written correctly in the comics from the 60's until about 1985. The past 20 years is just bad writing and .

So, wait, almost half of his life is bad writing? Sounds like someone cant take change...

[Kurosawa]

So, wait, almost half of his life is bad writing? Sounds like someone cant take change...

It's hardly change. It's hackwork. Actually not ALL of the past 20 years has been written badly, but enough of it has.

Either way, I'm sure you'd feel completely differently about this matter if it was a character you cared about getting killed off.

[cookiva]

It's hardly change. It's hackwork. Actually not ALL of the past 20 years has been written badly, but enough of it has.

Either way, I'm sure you'd feel completely differently about this matter if it was a character you cared about getting killed off.

Practically has happened. Iceman died in the movies.

[Kurosawa]

Practically has happened. Iceman died in the movies.

??? I saw X2 and Iceman was alive in it.

[Cyclops]

Regardless of how it's done, I will not see this movie if they really do kill Cyclops off. It's a waste of a good character that they wouldn't dare kill off if he was given the treatment he deserves from the first two films.

[cookiva]

??? I saw X2 and Iceman was alive in it.

Thats not Iceman....

This is probably the first and last time I will complain about it though. Now, if Cyke had been portrayed as someone who cant handle himself in battle, weak, soft, and not in love with Jean, you would have cried bloody murder!!! I get a wisecracking, funloving teen shown as a stiff whiny runt. Hes not Iceman, hes his preppy cousin.

[Kurosawa]

Thats not Iceman....

This is probably the first and last time I will complain about it though. Now, if Cyke had been portrayed as someone who cant handle himself in battle, weak, soft, and not in love with Jean, you would have cried bloody murder!!! I get a wisecracking, funloving teen shown as a stiff whiny runt. Hes not Iceman, hes his preppy cousin.

At least the character is still alive. He's not been screwed over as bad as Cyke.

[cookiva]

At least the character is still alive. He's not been screwed over as bad as Cyke.

Oh, but you see, Im not whining about it. All I hear from you is "oh, Im so mad at Fox. Im going to be a baby and boycott this film, even though Ill see it eventually." Dont lie. I said I would never see Mr. and Mrs. Smith, because I hate Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie seperatly, but them together would give me a heart attack. Well, you know what? I saw it. You will see it too. I know you are going to say something like "But Im not you, feeble minded one", and try to put me down like you did Lightning, but the fact of the matter is that you are being childish, as immature as you say Fox is...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Regardless of how it's done, I will not see this movie if they really do kill Cyclops off. It's a waste of a good character that they wouldn't dare kill off if he was given the treatment he deserves from the first two films.

So do you believe he is being killed off due to studio politics? That's what some are claiming and to me it just doesn't make sense; it's not how the business works.

And it's not like he's the only character that's rumored to die.

[Yellow Cyclone]

jean coming back to life, and becoming phoenix, then the dark phoenix could be done without her vaporizing her husband...


Magneto+Hellfire club baby



we all know she pops outta the water at some point on her own....and the reason for this is that the machine at the end of X1 either a)"evolved" her powers or b)removed the professor's "locks"

thus she has, at least to the audience, (and the professor b/c of the end of X2) the incredible power of cheating death (among other things)


and in keeping with singer's established "real" universe rules:

a) she could have amnesia

b) she could wander around the regions/towns near alkali lake, looking for answers and even using her powers to help people to illustrate to the audience that she is indeed a good person

c)sooner or later the professor/cerebro/magneto/the gov't will hear about this "uber mutant" doing all sorts of things and come to her...which group is insignificant as i'll explain

d) if its the x-men who find her first, then she'll eventually be back in their ranks b/c test will be done, etc and they'll find out that she is "healthy" so to speak

if the baddies find her first, then she gets busted out by the x-men, and taken back, and we're back to d) again

e) as kuro said, if i could do the story, it'd be drawn out most likely an x3/x4 instead of one movie, so she'd be mostly coping with her powers in a slower method of story-telling....there'd be some hiccups along the way of course though; she could flirt with logan a little more in the open, she could flatout use cerebro better than the prof (something she was afraid of), she could be a little careless with her powers, but nothing too huge, and all the more subtle...

f) sooner or later we get the "B" storyplot of the "cure" (which is a rehash imo)/sentinels...once again this really doesn't matter although you could make it the mcguffin and have it show up later in x4 if desired...whatever this "grave threat" is the x-men will have to deal with it in the end of the 2nd act/beginning of the 3rd....and this is were jean has her little accident with her powers

somebody gets hurt/killed, innocents get burned, or whatever you pick your poison to be, it ends up demonstrating that all is not happy with jean

g) towards the end you have the team and even jean questioning her own ablities; maybe she thinks they no longer understand her, arguments happen, things are said, ppl are hurt, yadda yadda yadda, she ends up running into magneto...and that is just to see his little group of friends, the hellfire club...

hasn't anybody ever thought how/why magneto has his resources? his island fortress seems so cliche, even for a smart guy like singer/magneto...sure all his money could be from old-wealth, but that can only go so far...and calling his group the brotherhood, when it's only 4 ppl? kind of omnious, isn't it?

why not have magneto a larger part of this larger shadow organization...now obviously the name hellfire is kinda cheesy for movies, so just call it the inner circle/brotherhood or whatever...the point is this is where singer excells at...

so far the only real mutants we've seen in the movies have been pretty black and white: the good guys and the baddies...all these members of the circle (with magneto as their top dog), represent all parts of high, upper ecehlon types....CEOs, politicians, etc...everybody could be unique and each one could have their own agenda, many different from magento's...magneto keeps them around b/c we all know that he wants the war with humans to end with mutants on top, with him being the leader, but he's smart enough to know that he can't control everything by himself so he keep these guys around thinking he can control them in exchange for spots in his new world order

they tolerate with magneto's stuff, for their shot at the top, or maybe they believe in his goal too....basically it could help demonstrate to the audience that ANYBODY in singer's real world could be a mutant...from the ugly morlock, to a fortune500 businessman, not just the x-men...it woulda been interesting to see what singer could have done with all these possibilites


finally (thanks for bearing with me :p) maybe magneto's group with the help of one of their resident psychics could give her some "encouragement" to see their point of view, and of course then she goes all bad, yadda yadda, she's out of control and the x-men have to stop her & possibly a bigger threat in x4



i never said that this was good, but at least i answered Lightning that this would be my take....i still do believe that the early hellfire rumors we have would have been much better than this forced crap that we're hearing about....plus my way doesn't have the newly resurrected goddess vaporizing her husband in the first act


if i a lowly fan can come up with this crap in 5 min, then i'm sure a hollywood screenwriter who's getting paid by the truckload could have come up with something better....but alas i don't think we're going to get that in x3 :(

[Lightning Strykez!]

i never said that this was good, but at least i answered Lightning that this would be my take....i still do believe that the early hellfire rumors we have would have been much better than this forced crap that we're hearing about....plus my way doesn't have the newly resurrected goddess vaporizing her husband in the first act


I knew you'd come through Yellow; you always do. :cool: Well done. I'm not sure your theory would be quite as riveting as a vengeful murderess who doesn't know her own power--and accidentally kills the ones she loves...but it's well done nonetheless.:up:

[Cyclops]

So do you believe he is being killed off due to studio politics? That's what some are claiming and to me it just doesn't make sense; it's not how the business works.

And it's not like he's the only character that's rumored to die.

Politics? No. I think it's a cheap plot device to both get rid of a character in a full movie and to give Jean an excuse to go crazy.

Which would never have happened if Cyclops had been allowed to become endeared to movie audiences as Wolverine, or if Marsden was as big-profile and pushy as Halle Berry is.

Seriously, killing off the most important X-Man of them all to justify lunacy that, in all honesty, is unnecessary to get there (you'd think an INCREDIBLE power surge in telepathy and oh, COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD could do the trick to make one go nuts, but noooo...)

All in all, I don't like it. Call me childish if you will, but I do not want to see my favorite character in all of comics reduced to a half-assed plot device. Forgive me for that.

[JP]

Well, if Cyclops is worm food because he was under developed in the first two movies, then someone explain to me Xaviers demise. Reading through these past pages it seems that you think that the reason Scott dies is because he was doing Superman, and because he was never an important character.

Well, Xavier has always been an important character. And guess what? Patrick Stewart isn't doing Superman. :eek:

[Cyclops]

I'm just saying they'd never consider it if...

1) The first two films gave him the chance to become endeared to audiences
2) James Marsden was both as famous and pushy as Halle Berry. Let's be honest. She was the weakest link in the first two movies, yet she gets more screentime for it.

As for Xavier potentially dying, well... he's the mentor. His death would have emotional impact. Cyclops's death? With the way he's been portrayed in the films, it would ellicit an "eh" from the audience for the most part.

[ts16]

I'm just saying they'd never consider it if...

1) The first two films gave him the chance to become endeared to audiences
2) James Marsden was both as famous and pushy as Halle Berry. Let's be honest. She was the weakest link in the first two movies, yet she gets more screentime for it.

As for Xavier potentially dying, well... he's the mentor. His death would have emotional impact. Cyclops's death? With the way he's been portrayed in the films, it would ellicit an "eh" from the audience for the most part.

I have to agree. Honestly, how much does the average movie goer know about Cyclops? that he's married or involved with Jean Grey, doesn't get along with Wolverine and that he Shoots optic beams from his eyes....thats pretty much it.

[cookiva]

I'm just saying they'd never consider it if...

1) The first two films gave him the chance to become endeared to audiences
2) James Marsden was both as famous and pushy as Halle Berry. Let's be honest. She was the weakest link in the first two movies, yet she gets more screentime for it.

As for Xavier potentially dying, well... he's the mentor. His death would have emotional impact. Cyclops's death? With the way he's been portrayed in the films, it would ellicit an "eh" from the audience for the most part.

See, I see it the exact opposite. I think, that with the right lead in, that it could be one of the most dramatic scenes in the franchise....

[ts16]

See, I see it the exact opposite. I think, that with the right lead in, that it could be one of the most dramatic scenes in the franchise....

True, it all depends on if they flesh his character out before he bites the dust....if he bites the dust that is.

[Cyclops]

Yeah, and it might turn out to be a flying dog turd.

Remember people, this is the THIRD INSTALLMENT of a superhero franchise. And name me one third superhero movie that hasn't sucked. Superman 3... Batman Forever... Blade: Trinity...

That and the rumors that Cyclops dies and some of the AWFUL looking photos we've seen so far just gives me next to no confidence in this movie.

So could his death scene be good? Sure. Anything's possible. That doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea to kill him off, nor does it mean that it's justified in any way.

[cookiva]

Yeah, and it might turn out to be a flying dog turd.

Remember people, this is the THIRD INSTALLMENT of a superhero franchise. And name me one third superhero movie that hasn't sucked. Superman 3... Batman Forever... Blade: Trinity...

That and the rumors that Cyclops dies and some of the AWFUL looking photos we've seen so far just gives me next to no confidence in this movie.

So could his death scene be good? Sure. Anything's possible. That doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea to kill him off, nor does it mean that it's justified in any way.

See, this is a debate that I can listen to. Not like the one about fox conspiracy theorys and such...

I know that if Cyke was my fav, as he is yours, I would feel the same way. Its that he isnt, and he isnt the fav of the GA. That said, its way too sad that it might end like this. It really is...

[tonytr1687]

Politics? No. I think it's a cheap plot device to both get rid of a character in a full movie and to give Jean an excuse to go crazy.

Which would never have happened if Cyclops had been allowed to become endeared to movie audiences as Wolverine, or if Marsden was as big-profile and pushy as Halle Berry is.

Seriously, killing off the most important X-Man of them all to justify lunacy that, in all honesty, is unnecessary to get there (you'd think an INCREDIBLE power surge in telepathy and oh, COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD could do the trick to make one go nuts, but noooo...)

All in all, I don't like it. Call me childish if you will, but I do not want to see my favorite character in all of comics reduced to a half-assed plot device. Forgive me for that.

I agree. You would think that his lack of screen time in the previous films would be all the more reason to give him his due in X3 but noooo they had to take the easy route, if his early death is indeed true. As for how I would of handled everything, its pretty simple and not at all very different from what theyre planning.

You can have the exact same setup with Scott going to Alkali Lake and witnessing Jean's rising. She does her thing where she takes off his glasses and holds back his optic blast. But instead of vaporizing him it just backfires and creates a huge explosion of energy not unlike their encounter at Strykers lair in X2. Cyke is literally blown far away into the forest. He lives but suffers from some broken bones and of course he cant see because he has to keep his eyes shut. Jean meanwhile is knocked unconscious by the explosion and Logan proceeds to find her and bring her back to the mansion. He tells her that all he found were Scotts glasses and so they think hes dead. The old bartender from X1 finds Scott and offers to take him to a hospital but Scott refuses of course so the guy takes him to his home in the back of the bar. So while the main events are unfolding we occasionally come back to Scott's little side story where he opens up to the bartender and his wife who is tending to him. He tells them his story but doesnt mention hes a mutant. The couple sympathize with him so that when he does reveal he is a mutant they have a change of heart. They see that not all mutants are bad and Scott witnesses this, discovering for himself that mankind is not evil...just uninformed. So when Scott hears of the X-men engaging in the final battle on the news he asks if the couple could take him there and they are glad to help. So during the climax Cyke shows up to try to stop Jean who is causing all kinds of destruction as Dark Phoenix. Logan has already tried to break thru to her but to no avail. However when Scott tries he succeeds, and so Jean is saved from herself and Logan realizes once and for all that Scott is the guy for her. Jean sees the destruction she has caused and realizes Xavier was right to have placed those power blocks in her mind. She returns to normal but still retains some of her Phoenix power. In the wake of Xaviers death Scott takes his place as headmaster of the school, now completely confident in the dream his mentor had after his experience with the bartender and his wife. He talks of this in his eulogy at Xaviers funeral, and even in the midst of sorrow following the professors death, there is a sense of hope as Cyke will be there to carry on his dream. The torch has been passed.

See that? A good way to keep Cyke alive, do his character justice, and keep him present throughout the movie, but not too much so as to detract from the main characters and plot. They wouldnt even have to change the existing scenes where Cyke is absent from the team and everything else. Just add that little side story to keep us up to speed with his character and then have him show up to save the day at the end like it should be. Storm can still have her place as a major player in the main events, just sans the eulogy. Same with Wolverine of course. Cyke can take over for the professor and the destruction left by Jean can cause the President to approve Trask's Sentinel program. The ending would leave way for a possible X4 if they so choose to go ahead with it.

[Cyclops]

See, I could live with that. I'd actually LIKE it. Very much.

[Cyclops]

See, this is a debate that I can listen to. Not like the one about fox conspiracy theorys and such...

I know that if Cyke was my fav, as he is yours, I would feel the same way. Its that he isnt, and he isnt the fav of the GA. That said, its way too sad that it might end like this. It really is...

Conspiracy theories are almost always bupkis anyway.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it should take a bias to see that there is no real justification for killing Cyclops off.

[cookiva]

Conspiracy theories are almost always bupkis anyway.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it should take a bias to see that there is no real justification for killing Cyclops off.

But it does. See, if Storm were to die, Im sure A1nt or Lightning would be doing what you are, but would you still be mad? Maybe, maybe not. When Iceman (and Im saying Iceman meaning comic Iceman) lost his powers momentarilly due to House of M, I was so upset that I almost cried. Did you? Probably not. Being biased has to do with everything.

[Cyclops]

Yeah, actually, I would. Yeah, Halle Berry has done nothing to impress me in the X-Movies, but that doesn't mean I'd want to see Storm killed. I'm all for a certain degree of separation from the comics, but when you kill off a character who isn't dead in the comics, you cross a line that shouldn't be crossed.

And in all honesty, comics for the most part have been so bad these past few years that I can hardly muster any emotion but frustration. I was more frustrated at the gross mischaracterization Iceman's suffered ever since Chuck Austen took over.

[JP]

A lot of Spider fans want MJ dead in SM3.

Eh, I still blame Vaughn for all these deaths.

[OutcryX]

I agree. You would think that his lack of screen time in the previous films would be all the more reason to give him his due in X3 but noooo they had to take the easy route, if his early death is indeed true. As for how I would of handled everything, its pretty simple and not at all very different from what theyre planning.

You can have the exact same setup with Scott going to Alkali Lake and witnessing Jean's rising. She does her thing where she takes off his glasses and holds back his optic blast. But instead of vaporizing him it just backfires and creates a huge explosion of energy not unlike their encounter at Strykers lair in X2. Cyke is literally blown far away into the forest. He lives but suffers from some broken bones and of course he cant see because he has to keep his eyes shut. Jean meanwhile is knocked unconscious by the explosion and Logan proceeds to find her and bring her back to the mansion. He tells her that all he found were Scotts glasses and so they think hes dead. The old bartender from X1 finds Scott and offers to take him to a hospital but Scott refuses of course so the guy takes him to his home in the back of the bar. So while the main events are unfolding we occasionally come back to Scott's little side story where he opens up to the bartender and his wife who is tending to him. He tells them his story but doesnt mention hes a mutant. The couple sympathize with him so that when he does reveal he is a mutant they have a change of heart. They see that not all mutants are bad and Scott witnesses this, discovering for himself that mankind is not evil...just uninformed. So when Scott hears of the X-men engaging in the final battle on the news he asks if the couple could take him there and they are glad to help. So during the climax Cyke shows up to try to stop Jean who is causing all kinds of destruction as Dark Phoenix. Logan has already tried to break thru to her but to no avail. However when Scott tries he succeeds, and so Jean is saved from herself and Logan realizes once and for all that Scott is the guy for her. Jean sees the destruction she has caused and realizes Xavier was right to have placed those power blocks in her mind. She returns to normal but still retains some of her Phoenix power. In the wake of Xaviers death Scott takes his place as headmaster of the school, now completely confident in the dream his mentor had after his experience with the bartender and his wife. He talks of this in his eulogy at Xaviers funeral, and even in the midst of sorrow following the professors death, there is a sense of hope as Cyke will be there to carry on his dream. The torch has been passed.

See that? A good way to keep Cyke alive, do his character justice, and keep him present throughout the movie, but not too much so as to detract from the main characters and plot. They wouldnt even have to change the existing scenes where Cyke is absent from the team and everything else. Just add that little side story to keep us up to speed with his character and then have him show up to save the day at the end like it should be. Storm can still have her place as a major player in the main events, just sans the eulogy. Same with Wolverine of course. Cyke can take over for the professor and the destruction left by Jean can cause the President to approve Trask's Sentinel program. The ending would leave way for a possible X4 if they so choose to go ahead with it.


This is actually quite a good idea. I would be all for it. I am a Cyclops fan...I'm a fan of all the X-men (wolverine slightly less) and don't want to see any of them die. THAT would be a great way to appease the fans of Cyclops and keep the movie as it now stands 98% intact. I'm a fan of Storm too and believe she should get more screen time...but they should NEVER have downplayed the importance of Cyclops in this series...and using him as the reason Jean goes nuts my be pivotal...but at the same time could be done so much better...like this idea right here...i like that very much

[Cyclops]

Well, their reasoning on that is so they can see the completion of the Gwen Stacy Death. I disagree, I don't think MJ should be killed. In fact, I'd like to see her have nothing at all to do with the villains Spidey faces for once. It won't happen, I'm sure. One of the villains will inevitably kidnap MJ to get to Spidey.

But back to this film. Regardless of favoritism, killing a main-cast hero is a bad idea. Bad bad bad. And when you also factor in that Marsden himself has been more enthusiastic about the X-Men films than any of the cast, it becomes even more wrong.

[cookiva]

A lot of Spider fans want MJ dead in SM3.

Eh, I still blame Vaughn for all these deaths.

Thinking about it, I do too...

[OutcryX]

Vaughn focked this franchise (deaths wise) and then left. Kinberg and Penn were just weak willed and in over their heads enough to keep his ideas intact after he left.

[JP]

Thinking about it, I do too...

You do to what?

I donno. I agree with Cyclops. Scatts death is just wrong. But, I'm not a fan and I really don't care that much. :( Sad but true. From what we've seen in the teaser, Marsdens performance looks great. So, I'm hoping the scene wont be that terribly (for non scott fans, anyway)

[JP]

Vaughn focked this franchise (deaths wise) and then left. Kinberg and Penn were just weak willed and in over their heads enough to keep his ideas intact after he left.

I think it's a shame. Say what you want about Ratner, but I would have seriously loved to see what he could have done with this franchise on his own. Ah well.

[cookiva]

I think it's a shame. Say what you want about Ratner, but I would have seriously loved to see what he could have done with this franchise on his own. Ah well.

God, I know. While Singers view was good, I think that Ratner would have had the characters true to the source. Cyke wouldnt seem as weak, Bobby would play pranks, Storm would do stuff, etc...

[Cyclops]

Weak? Now lack of screentime or not, Cyclops has come across as anything but weak.

Bobby has been underplayed big time, but I let that slide as he was initially nothing more than a short cameo that got expanded probably late in the game. Heck, the X2 special on Fox had Iceman being quite the prankster, with him freezing a waterfountain as a student was drinking from it and probably doing other things I can't recall.

[Lightning Strykez!]

But it does. See, if Storm were to die, Im sure A1nt or Lightning would be doing what you are, but would you still be mad? Maybe, maybe not. When Iceman (and Im saying Iceman meaning comic Iceman) lost his powers momentarilly due to House of M, I was so upset that I almost cried. Did you? Probably not. Being biased has to do with everything.

Actually, not all the time.

For example, if they killed off Storm I wouldn't be any more disgusted than I've been with this series since day one (specifically regarding the treatment of that character). In my honest opinion they've been "killing" Storm in every film; I've had to sit through two films rolling my eyes in annoyance at an actress with a white wig so-called "Storm"--but in name only.

So no, if they killed her in X3 I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Disapointed? Yes. Angry. More so. But I still wouldn't *boycott* the film--that's just silly. There are other X-Men that I'm attached to.

I'm just hoping Storm will finally come to life in this installment.

[JP]

I guess I can't complain since I've had a great Jean Grey and a kick ass Magneto in both films. My favorite characters haven't been harmed.

[Retroman]

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/trailer/10009185/trailer_07.jpg
"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"
A Theory On Why Cyclops' Death Might Work

An Essay By Lightning Strikez!



I've given much thought to these alleged "death" rumors, and have come to the conclusion that Cyclop's death might--just might--actually work for this film depending on how it's executed. Now, don't get wrong, I think it'd be a crime to waste such a promising and underdeveloped character, especially in lieu of the great actor that is James Marsden. However, this thread is not meant to discuss the *crimes* of this possible outcome, but rather how it might actually work--if it's done for emotional impact.


A Deeper Motive
Bryan Singer's prior X-films contained a certain level of believability and realism. Therefore, there obviously won't be outer space aliens or entities taking over bodies as they do in comic books. So what other element could feasibly drive Jean Grey to become Dark Phoenix without compromising the realistic tone in this series?

The answer? Accidental Manslaughter & Revenge.

If Jean accidentally deals a fatal blow to her lover, she (and the audience) will be forced to come to a chilling conclusion: She is out of control. And from what we understand, it will be revealed that Charles Xavier set her up for that failure--not only by putting psionic "brakes" in her mind at a tender young age, but also by stifling her attempts to develop her powers (i.e. in Cerebro).

http://www.thexverse.com/assets/gallery/x3/trailers/teaser1/cap050.jpg

Understandably, this revelation would likely pitch Jean into a wide plethora of emotions--including feelings of rage, betrayal, grief, confusion...and of course, insanity. Charles Xavier was her figurative "father" figure, her protector, her teacher. Yet, due to his overprotectiveness, he might have interfered with her natural evolution, thereby "framing" her in a sense with the future murder of Scott Summers. As a result, I think audiences would totally understand her defection to Magneto's Brotherhood Of Mutants.

So for this reason (and this reason alone), I believe that Scott's death--if it is true--could be one of the most emotionally gripping and pivotal scenes of the film for 3 different reasons: (1) It will show audiences just how powerful Jean has become, (2) his death would provide a "realistic" motive for Jean to apostasize against her mentor and (3) it would give basis to Jean's avenging Scott by killing someone else--as speculated.

http://www.marvelvc.com.br/X-Men/Xavier1.jpg

"We hurt the ones we love the most"
If these rumors hold true, this old adage will take on significant emotional meaning for Jean Grey, and the two most important men in her life. If done right, I believe it could be a powerful element in this movie--and most importantly--it would ensure that Scott's death would not be an "empty" thing.

Your thoughts?
:up: I think you summed it better than anyone else has. Not that agree with Cyclops death but the reasons you've posted are the most logical ones. I never really thought about it like this before you posted it.

[Son Of Logan]

I really don't want to see Cyke die, but I have thought of it along the lines you have described, LS. Again, you give a level-headed theory to calm some of the more excitable members of the Hype. :up:

[WorthyStevens]

I still believe Scott leaves the lake and the team before Jean rises...:(

Please somebody just confirm this for my sake...:(

[Aiden]

Well, Simon did say there would be surprises concerning Cyclops so you never know Worthy

[MoiBijou]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, Simon did say there would be surprises concerning Cyclops so you never know Worthy


Exactly Aiden. His exact quote:

I love Cyclops. Sorry Ghostman for not answering this earlier, but I guess I missed your first post. I was a huge Cyclops fan from the comics growing up. He has some very dramatic scenes in this film, and definitely a few surprises. The Cyclops/Scott in X3 is not the clean-cut boy from the first two films. Jean’s death in X2 really impacted him.



And thanks Son Of Logan.

[Almighty Pejo]

why don't you, Pejo, Kurosawa and Tony propose some *better* ways they could've introduced the Dark Phoenix element without bringing in the Shi'ar, outer space Cosmic Entities, and all of the other comic-booky stuff that would've made Bryan Singer's former films seem out-of-continuity?Considering that I already gave the simplest reasoning that being dead and coming back to life with uncontrollable powers was quite enough to drive anyone mad, and it was reiterated by Cyclops, it appears I have already proposed a better way, or at the very least, a very logical alternative. As I said feeling compelled to destroy is far more terrifying when there is no reason. Understanding why a character is doing the things they do only lowers them to your level, which is what the majority of the other characters are there for. As every outlet has said, she is not the Dr. Grey from the first two films. Things that would have motivated her should not motivate the Phoenix. Hainvg the Phoenix' motivation for wanting to destroy the world be revenge is insulting and catering to the lowest possible common denominator. And that's not even addressing the issues with Scott being vaporized.

You speak of Bryan Singer's realism limiting what they can do with Phoenix. How so? Pretty much everyone said she, in and of herself, was far too impossible and outlandish for a Singer movie, but Bryan introduced her into the X-Men universe and later referred to her imminent return as evolution itself, going beyond the realism people had expected from him after X-Men. As such, we cannot begin to really speculate on what Singer would have done with her, or how he would have explored her, or to what extremes he would have taken her. But we can say that she has been the singlemost source for active evolution and change through this series; the very spotlight of that particular theme. Therefore, it only stands to reason, when it comes to this specific character, all bets are (or rather should be) off. And when Wizard remarked she wanted to destroy the world, and the movie novelization (and I'm giving major concessions here considering the novel is written by Chris Claremont) speaks of her being possessed with cosmic might and world devouring power, nothing really indicates she is going to be as strapped down by realism as one may think. Giving her a 'realistic' motivation for an 'unrealistic' desire seems a moot point.

The comic book universe had been to space and fought in an intergalactic war before the Dark Phoenix Saga, thus setting a very large, very epic scale for future stories. Because of that, (and the nature of comic Phoenix being born of the stars) to show just how immense the threat of Dark Phoenix was, she had to destroy a sun, to give scale to her power. Considering such things have not been introduced in the slightest in these movies, all you have to do is make the Phoenix' threat larger than the threats we saw in the first two films. They would need neither the Shi'Ar, nor the D'Bari, nor any sort of Cosmic Force to make her a global threat, nor would they need to kill Cyclops, if they would simply focus on the easy given that she simply isn't the same woman anymore. I doubt anyone would be after they died.

And don't bring in some "She'd just be reborn insane" stuff because that's very passe and audiences would yawn at that.It isn't about being reborn insane, it's about being reborn with so much power that you are driven insane. If an audience's brain is so mushy that they don't want provocative questions about the burdens of having those kinds of powers placed on them, to toy with the idea of what we could someday become if we should evolve beyond our mortal limitations and become as gods, and try to feel the torment of who this person is simply by being who they are instead of their experiences, learning and feeling and thinking for themselves instead of being handed an easy and contrived device of an answer, then they shouldn't be coming to watch an X-Men film. The power of that book (and the film franchise) was never in the flashy dashy, but the heady underlying themes; it was the philosopher's franchise. Phoenix is their opportunity to explore the unexplorable. I don't want to see them pass it up in favor of making a more 'relateable, human' Phoenix.

[cookiva]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

Hmm...seems time for a bumpage...

[cookiva]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

Hmm...seems time for a bumpage...

[spideydave]

Sniff Sniff but I dont want anyone to die!

[Lightning Strykez!]

Why is Cook on pro-ban?

[ljr]

He's been suspended why?

[X-Maniac]

Considering that I already gave the simplest reasoning that being dead and coming back to life with uncontrollable powers was quite enough to drive anyone mad, and it was reiterated by Cyclops, it appears I have already proposed a better way, or at the very least, a very logical alternative. As I said feeling compelled to destroy is far more terrifying when there is no reason. Understanding why a character is doing the things they do only lowers them to your level, which is what the majority of the other characters are there for. As every outlet has said, she is not the Dr. Grey from the first two films. Things that would have motivated her should not motivate the Phoenix. Hainvg the Phoenix' motivation for wanting to destroy the world be revenge is insulting and catering to the lowest possible common denominator. And that's not even addressing the issues with Scott being vaporized.

You speak of Bryan Singer's realism limiting what they can do with Phoenix. How so? Pretty much everyone said she, in and of herself, was far too impossible and outlandish for a Singer movie, but Bryan introduced her into the X-Men universe and later referred to her imminent return as evolution itself, going beyond the realism people had expected from him after X-Men. As such, we cannot begin to really speculate on what Singer would have done with her, or how he would have explored her, or to what extremes he would have taken her. But we can say that she has been the singlemost source for active evolution and change through this series; the very spotlight of that particular theme. Therefore, it only stands to reason, when it comes to this specific character, all bets are (or rather should be) off. And when Wizard remarked she wanted to destroy the world, and the movie novelization (and I'm giving major concessions here considering the novel is written by Chris Claremont) speaks of her being possessed with cosmic might and world devouring power, nothing really indicates she is going to be as strapped down by realism as one may think. Giving her a 'realistic' motivation for an 'unrealistic' desire seems a moot point.

The comic book universe had been to space and fought in an intergalactic war before the Dark Phoenix Saga, thus setting a very large, very epic scale for future stories. Because of that, (and the nature of comic Phoenix being born of the stars) to show just how immense the threat of Dark Phoenix was, she had to destroy a sun, to give scale to her power. Considering such things have not been introduced in the slightest in these movies, all you have to do is make the Phoenix' threat larger than the threats we saw in the first two films. They would need neither the Shi'Ar, nor the D'Bari, nor any sort of Cosmic Force to make her a global threat, nor would they need to kill Cyclops, if they would simply focus on the easy given that she simply isn't the same woman anymore. I doubt anyone would be after they died.

It isn't about being reborn insane, it's about being reborn with so much power that you are driven insane. If an audience's brain is so mushy that they don't want provocative questions about the burdens of having those kinds of powers placed on them, to toy with the idea of what we could someday become if we should evolve beyond our mortal limitations and become as gods, and try to feel the torment of who this person is simply by being who they are instead of their experiences, learning and feeling and thinking for themselves instead of being handed an easy and contrived device of an answer, then they shouldn't be coming to watch an X-Men film. The power of that book (and the film franchise) was never in the flashy dashy, but the heady underlying themes; it was the philosopher's franchise. Phoenix is their opportunity to explore the unexplorable. I don't want to see them pass it up in favor of making a more 'relateable, human' Phoenix.

You make some interesting points, but I'm not entirely sure the X-movies - or today's storytelling world - are the place for the sort of Phoenix you describe. These days we rarely see examples of 'pure evil' - we see motives, explanations, a driving force. Claremont himself fleshed out Magneto's background to show why he is what he is, why he does what he does. Cause and effect. Action and reaction. Even in the comics, it wasn't just absolute power that created Dark Phoenix - it was the mental tampering of illusionist Mastermind and the machinations of the Hellfire Club that tipped her over the edge.

By delving into Jean's past - Xavier placing restraints on her etc - they seem to be trying to justify her anger, her resentments, her behaviour, and create the human behavioural conflicts essential for storytelling. Rather than just saying 'absolute power corrupts and she is evil because of that.' (that too could work, but it creates less conflict). Maybe she doesn't have the absolute power of the comicbook version? When Bryan Singer's X2 heavily reinterpreted Mastermind as Jason Stryker, the comicbook source of Jean's insanity was deprived of a place in X3 (I wish they'd used Mesmero in the movie instead). Perhaps the movies need to explain why a human mutant who saved everyone in X2 is now a psycho-bytch diva. Her struggle with her humanity and everyone else's struggle with her behaviour will be central to the movie, surely...especially as she is somehow unlikely to be the god-like comicbook version? (Although we could be surprised).

[Lightning Strykez!]

I honestly don't believe that novel synopsis will truly mirror the plots of the film. Phoenix destroying the whole earth? That seems farfetched for this universe. I think the Dark Cerebro sequence was the closest we're going to get to that level of planetary destruction.

[Asteroid-Man]

I really always hated Scott and Jean from the old show and comics. They pissed me off. But I loved pheonix. Hot and not like jean. Those two just bug me. So i say let the red eyed dwork die!

[Lightning Strykez!]

*ducks for cover* ^

[WorthyStevens]

So i say let the red eyed dwork die!

*runs out of this board, and counts to 10*

[sebaa]

this thread is dead? i think that its a cool theory of the dead of cyclopss

[Kira]

I really always hated Scott and Jean from the old show and comics. They pissed me off. But I loved pheonix. Hot and not like jean. Those two just bug me. So i say let the red eyed dwork die!

:eek:

This is not going to end well. Discuss. :D

[JustABill]

Kira, stop being an instigator. :o


You....instigator....you..

:p

[Kira]

Kira, stop being an instigator. :o


You....instigator....you..

:p

:(

Kira bad?



:p

[LEX]

No hurting Kira. *stands in front of Kira* :o




:p

[DarknessOfDeath]

I love the character of Cyclops and I liked him in X1 a lot and a bit in X2. I was bummed that he didn't have a lot of screen time in x2. I hope they do some justice on Cykes characterization and add more depth to his relationship with Jean/Phoenix. It would be a surprise if he showed up to make his last stand against the brotherhood and help Jean come back to her senses. If he dies, I won't be mad ... just sad. http://www.thexverse.com/community/images/smilies/frown.gif

[lordofthenerds]

No hurting Kira. *stands in front of Kira* :o




:p
But the title is "We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most". :p

[LEX]

Good point. :D

[AfterTheStorm24]

You wrote an ESSAY?

Interesting content too ...

[LEX]

LS is known for that. :p Well...that and modding. :up:

[Sunstar]

If Cyclops' death is the factor that pushes her over the edge, why does she pounce on Logan in the ShoWest clip? Surely she should still be upset about Scott and ignore Logan all together so that she can focus on getting back at Professor for supressing her powers!

[LEX]

She is upset. You see her crying in the end of the new trailer. And then she tells Logan to kill her b/c she feels Dark Phoenix coming. Then it's too late, she reverses to Dark Phoenix, a confused psychotic, schizo chick.

[fckable David]

As for how Cyclops has been portrayed, some of you need to grow up. Last time I checked, Cyclops was not the one initiating conflict between himself and Wolverine. That was, as it tends to be, Wolverine. Cyclops is also not the person trying to steal another person's girlfriend/fiancee. So why the hell does he come across as an ass in your minds? Because he's defending himself in some small way from what is essentially Wolverine's emotional abuses? Cyclops has not been portrayed as a moron, he has been portrayed as a less-than-perfect leader, which is not exactly a bastardization of is character. Read a damned comic book. And stop ignoring all the things in the movies that show that the man does think logically in battle.

Thanks.

[fckable David]

it would ensure that Scott's death would not be an "empty" thing.


Probably not for Jean, but apparently for everyone else, even Xavier.

[Fanticon]

Well, I would hope that this would all have an emotional impact on audiences if its done really well...But I also think that Cyclops hasn't been developed enough for audiences to care...so this pivotal scene...this very emotional moment may actually fall short because the writers and director's (yes, I do mean Singer as well) never gave his character the chance to wow and impress audiences in the first two movies, in ways that other characters have...so it will feel more like getting someone out of the way...wether he actually does die...or is serioulsy injured...its more like an 'on with the show' gag. Cyclops is a very complex character...And the average movie going audiences that have come to love these X-men movies will never know his background...therefore, assuming that no one in the audience has a heart...it won't be like watching Anakin get hacked to pieces and burning alive...it will feel more like Qui Gon's death...first movie, new guy...oh he's out...oh well...sorry to make a Star Wars comparison but it was the only thing I could think of right now...going back to movie audiences that have only seen the X-men movies and very little in anyother form...they'll never know Cyclops was an orphan...his parents were killed in a plane crash, that he and his brother survived, he had it tough growing up...There was nothing preppy or uptight about his upbringing and being taken in by Prof X was the best thing that ever happened to him only second to meeting Jean ...that is why he is the true leader of the X-men...survival, overcoming major emotional truama suffered as a child, all that stuff counts. If they wrote his part better maybe Marsden would have been down for it for round 3, this should be Cyclops' movie, thats his girl, its his job to see this through to the end. The attitude, the greiving, the leaving of the team for a while...exposition, easily explained, but once he got word that Jean was alive, it shoulda been time to suit back up and help the team...Scott Summers I salute you...I guess the only true way to represent you is in the comics where you belong.

[CapBeerCino]

*ducks for cover* ^

Dont. The Cyclops thread became a support group and we're coping there. :( :o

[Aiden]

Dont. The Cyclops thread became a support group and we're coping there. :( :o*cries*

[DACrowe]

Here is why they killed Cyke, plain and simple.

1) Mardsen was playing a small role on Superman Returns. Though he said he would work for any price to be in the final X-Men movie as a main character, Fox throws a temper tantrum that he is working on a project for Bryan Singer, who left after they screwed him over and took his time making the movie instead of rush jobing it in under a year.

2) Halle Berry wants more screentime. They give her an attitude (finally), however they make her the leader. As the leader of the team they get rid of Cyclops. Which is a shame because Mardsen with just as much screentime (as in very little) was far more compelling and believable in the first X-Men movie and the conclusion of the second.

3) The lead of this is Hugh Jackman. After several popular films that aren't related to X-Men and becoming a Broadway smash, he has a brand name. The star in the vehicle gets the girl. Though this is a tragic story (as I think the conclusion will be VERY similar to that of the real Dark Pheonex Saga) it would not look as good to studio execs. if the star has no girl to pine for and the heart of the story and its end is the girl and the stipulated "other man" (though they could just develop him into a compelling co-star alongside Wolverine, no?).



All terrible reasons, and in all honesty audiences don't give a **** if he is in SR or if he and Jean are the main love story, Jackman could have still been the big face. Alas, studio execs. get pissed and stupid and then piss on the comics.

Might be a good movie though.

[Aiden]

This is all FOX's fault, if they'd just waited on Singer finishing SR then none of this would've happened

[DarknessOfDeath]

Right!!!

[Jan Irisi]

This is all FOX's fault, if they'd just waited on Singer finishing SR then none of this would've happened

If they had waitied for Singer, this film would never had been made at all.

[Aiden]

Singer said he would do it. FOX just wanted this movie out before SR

[DACrowe]

If they just had waited instead of pursuing with an unfiinshed script turned in by two hacks and directed by one of the least appealing choices while deciding for no reason to take a major **** on the comics along the way and kill the leader of the team off in the first 10 minutes.

This almost sounds like a joke really.

[JokerNick]

so has cyclops demise been made officail???

[DarknessOfDeath]

where've you been joker? its been official

[MaleRogue]

o no not cyclops...
i feel bad for all of you...:(
but is there anything said about Rogue and the cure???

[Magic Aeons]

I hope, there is a kinda backdoor for him reg. possible future movies?

[Jan Irisi]

Singer said he would do it. FOX just wanted this movie out before SR

FOX had the release date in mind for a long time. If FOX had waited for Singer to finish all of his dream projects, they risked losing their entire cast. Singer left, period. There was no looking back after that. That was the end of the chapter.


What else was FOX supposed to do? Sit around tapping their feet and druming their fingers until Singer was done doing whatever he was doing? Were the cast and crew expected to do the same? They have a business to run. Yes, a business. They had done two films and were going to do a third. They had a window of opportunity to operate in and they did the best they could. They hired a new director, had much of the previous cast ready to go, and off they went. We may not be too happy with the procedures, but they did what they had to do to get the film done and out.

It's like a football team. They have a game to play, but the quarterback is off doing commercial endorsements. What does the coach do? Wait until the quarterback is done filming his deodorant commercial? Or do they put in the back-up quarterback and play the game? You do what you have to do to get the job done. Sure, you may lose, but you still did the best you could do under the circumstances.

[DarknessOfDeath]

perhaps...but I freaking doubt it.

[CapBeerCino]

*cries*

Already did. A lot... :(

[CapBeerCino]

What else was FOX supposed to do? Sit around tapping their feet and druming their fingers until Singer was done doing whatever he was doing?


No, but not taking their sweet time after x-2 was a hit could have solved it...

[MaleRogue]

aany tragic new about Rogue also???
*say no* *please*

[Aiden]

FOX had the release date in mind for a long time. If FOX had waited for Singer to finish all of his dream projects, they risked losing their entire cast. Singer left, period. There was no looking back after that. That was the end of the chapter.


What else was FOX supposed to do? Sit around tapping their feet and druming their fingers until Singer was done doing whatever he was doing? Were the cast and crew expected to do the same? They have a business to run. Yes, a business. They had done two films and were going to do a third. They had a window of opportunity to operate in and they did the best they could. They hired a new director, had much of the previous cast ready to go, and off they went. We may not be too happy with the procedures, but they did what they had to do to get the film done and out.

It's like a football team. They have a game to play, but the quarterback is off doing commercial endorsements. What does the coach do? Wait until the quarterback is done filming his deodorant commercial? Or do they put in the back-up quarterback and play the game? You do what you have to do to get the job done. Sure, you may lose, but you still did the best you could do under the circumstances.Good point

[MaleRogue]

aany tragic new about Rogue also???
*say no* *please*

????

[Jan Irisi]

No, but not taking their sweet time after x-2 was a hit could have solved it...


Perhaps they always ran on the assumption that Singer was going to do X3. (yes, you can get into trouble when you assume) I recall many tiny reports that stated that Singer etal were working on drafts of scripts and such. And then suddenly, it was announced he was signed to direct Superman. I remember that blow to the gut. I remember saying to myself "Where did that come from? He said he had been working on drafts for X3...wtf?"

Yes, FOX should have signed him to do X3 right off the bat. Perhaps they tried? Do we know if they made an effort? DO we really know what went on between FOX and Singer? Will we ever really know? We can assume all we want what happened, but we may never really know. Singer had offices on the FOX lot apparently. And then he didn't. Perhaps the terms FOX was offering Singer at the time were not acceptable. Perhaps Singer balked at the thought of returning to direct another X-men film for reasons of his own, regardless of what he was being offered. We don't really know.

But the fact is that Singer left. The door was closed. New director brought in. We can look back and coulda-woulda-shoulda all we want. But in the end, we must face the fact that Singer is gone now. FOX moved on with a new director. They faced a steep mountain to climb to get this thing done and they managed to do it. It may be good or it may well be a steaming pile of dog doo, but they got it done. They really had no choice. They risked losing everything had they not moved forward. The risked losing the cast, the time-slot, and they risked losing the film itself.

[JokerNick]

FOX had the release date in mind for a long time. If FOX had waited for Singer to finish all of his dream projects, they risked losing their entire cast. Singer left, period. There was no looking back after that. That was the end of the chapter.


What else was FOX supposed to do? Sit around tapping their feet and druming their fingers until Singer was done doing whatever he was doing? Were the cast and crew expected to do the same? They have a business to run. Yes, a business. They had done two films and were going to do a third. They had a window of opportunity to operate in and they did the best they could. They hired a new director, had much of the previous cast ready to go, and off they went. We may not be too happy with the procedures, but they did what they had to do to get the film done and out.

It's like a football team. They have a game to play, but the quarterback is off doing commercial endorsements. What does the coach do? Wait until the quarterback is done filming his deodorant commercial? Or do they put in the back-up quarterback and play the game? You do what you have to do to get the job done. Sure, you may lose, but you still did the best you could do under the circumstances.

I see your point, back a football team contracts their quarterback, after the huge success of x-men and x2, fox should have gave Singer a huge contract offer, but they didn't, if your were singer, how would you feel, you made two awesome films, and Fox hasn't thrown a contract at you for more films, that was kind of a slap in the face to him, I got a feeling he waited for fox to approach him on x3, and when they didn't, he decided to move on, football players do this offten......

[Jan Irisi]

I see your point, back a football team contracts their quarterback, after the huge success of x-men and x2, fox should have gave Singer a huge contract offer, but they didn't, if your were singer, how would you feel, you made two awesome films, and Fox hasn't thrown a contract at you for more films, that was kind of a slap in the face to him, I got a feeling he waited for fox to approach him on x3, and when they didn't, he decided to move on, football players do this offten......


But read my other post. Do we in fact know that FOX didn't offer him anything? Maybe they just went along with the assumption that Singer was going to follow through with X3. Perhaps they were wrong to go on that assumtion and they got stung in their corporate butt for assuming. We did have reports that Singer etal were working on a story for X3.

[JokerNick]

also, I can relate to Singer, I'm an intern right now, I'm busting my butt for this lawfirm, I'm making them money, now once I get farther along in school, I really hope they offer to bring me on after I graduate, if I don't hear anything as my graduation date approaches, I'm going to look around eslewhere for a job, Singer had to look out for himself, that comes first, if a company is too lazy or to inept to realize what they might be lossing, well it's their loss and their fault..... not the person moving on....

[JokerNick]

But read my other post. Do we in fact know that FOX didn't offer him anything? Maybe they just went along with the assumption that Singer was going to follow through with X3. Perhaps they were wrong to go on that assumtion and they got stung in their corporate butt for assuming. We did have reports that Singer etal were working on a story for X3.

and that shows you that Singer was interested in doing x3, so we have to assume Fox dropped the ball in bringing him back.......

[Jan Irisi]

also, I can relate to Singer, I'm an intern right now, I'm busting my butt for this lawfirm, I'm making them money, now once I get farther along in school, I really hope they offer to bring me on after I graduate, if I don't hear anything as my graduation date approaches, I'm going to look around eslewhere for a job, Singer had to look out for himself, that comes first, if a company is too lazy or to inept to realize what they might be lossing, well it's their loss and their fault..... not the person moving on....


I'm not saying that what either party did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that we really don't know what went on behind the scenes. FOX fumbled the ball by not signing Singer earlier (or maybe they tried to sign him and failed). They fumbled big time. But they had to move on even after that fumble, just like a football team. I'm not faulting Singer either for finding a better deal. But he did move on, and FOX had to move on too.

[Jan Irisi]

and that shows you that Singer was interested in doing x3, so we have to assume Fox dropped the ball in bringing him back.......

It shows us that possibly FOX thought that there was no problem and that the thing was moving ahead. Yup, they were no doubt wrong to assume. But what's done is done.

[TromaFreak64]

Um, no offense but...did you even read my thread? It's purpose is not to speculate on what the sequence of movie events might be.

Rather we are taking about kind of emotional impact Scott's death would have on audiences--and whether it's a good enough reason to bring Dark Phoenix into the storyline.

*smiles pleasantly*

:cool:

I agree with you. When reading the book, if it holds true, his deaths and another do have some emotional impact on not only Jean but other characters as well. It seems to be one of the most realistic ways to introduce Dark Phoenix, however my concern is over how poorly or little he may be referenced after his death. I would like to think his death would impact other people....but they just don't seem to be indicating that his deaths or others impact other characters very much. That could cause the audience to lose sympathy and may overshadow the Phoenix's change from the events....making them less realistic. However, I have faith and think it will do exactly as LS' has indicated and I for one, am not as against to his death as I should be as I see it could create some strong emotion in this film. Even in thinking that, I must admit it is still kind of sad.

[JokerNick]

I'm not saying that what either party did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that we really don't know what went on behind the scenes. FOX fumbled the ball by not signing Singer earlier (or maybe they tried to sign him and failed). They fumbled big time. But they had to move on even after that fumble, just like a football team. I'm not faulting Singer either for finding a better deal. But he did move on, and FOX had to move on too.

yes, they both did, but as you said earlier, Singer did want to do x3, so the ball was in Fox's court........... I guess, I kinda do hope x3 fails, I mean, as much as I want it to be good, I don't, it would be such a wake up call to Fox, but it could be a double edged sword, they could either say forget it to the x-men franchise, or maybe they would try to bring singer back for another sequel or spin-off.....

I think the best thing would be for fox to sell the rights to Marvel entertainment, Stan Lee is in charge of that, and he admires Singer alot...... so there is slight hope we could see a Singer directed x-men film in the future