Civil War: Whos side are you on?

[LadyVader]

QFT. Marvel and DC have made everything dark and depressing for a long time, IC being the penultmat example, lately. In the last couple of years, I found the Deadshot mini-series to be a lot lighter than pretty much everything else from the big 2... and it was a mini-series about a super-villian who goes around killing people.

IC ended on a pretty upbeat note which was surprising for me anyway.
Diana going off to discover who she is.
Bruce and his kids going on a cruise.
:up:

I doubt this will end the same. Politics ruins everything.:(

[jaydawg]

Maybe that's the point? That it could have been ANY team?

Granted, Millar's usually about as deep as a kiddie pool with a leak in it. :rolleyes:
And yet you loved Ultimate Avengers, a film about as deep as your average episode of Barney. :O

[owenstar]

because it's depressing as hell.

Life is depressing its up to you to find the bright side....

If you enjoy old hat, more power to you....I just like to see something new

[LadyVader]

Oh gosh. I made it in someone's sig. My life has meaning. Thank you jaydawg. :)

Please excuse my eastern european ignorance. What is the meaning of "old hat"? As in, oldies but goldies or what?

[Zoken]

Known, done to death, easy, out of fashion

[Shadowknight]

IC ended on a pretty upbeat note which was surprising for me anyway.
Diana going off to discover who she is.
Bruce and his kids going on a cruise.
:up:
And Superboy-Prime carved an S in his chest and swore to escape so he could kill/maim once more :(

[LadyVader]

Well... they needed a cliffhanger. Johns just wouldn't be Johns without it!

[TheCorpulent1]

Bruce and his kids going on a cruise.
:up:
Tim is not Bruce's kid, and I have it on good authority that he resents your implication. :mad:
Life is depressing its up to you to find the bright side....

If you enjoy old hat, more power to you....I just like to see something new
Please, get off the high horse. Enjoying Civil War is one thing, but it's just as much "old hat" as Infinite Crisis or anything else in comics. Neither is better than the other in that respect. Get over it. :o

[Harlekin]

And Superboy-Prime carved an S in his chest and swore to escape so he could kill/maim once more :(
Thank you for spoiling that in the goddamn Marvel forum. :mad:

[Zaptoitnow]

It's been out for a week. Who is that interested in Infinite Crisis, and still hadn't read it?

[Tropico]

Civil War #1 was extremely good and, thankfully, nothing like HoM. It gives people that just came into this the viewpoint of both parties, something that people who have read the "Mr. Parker goes to Washington" story arc already know. It sets up the story very nicely and even boosted up Captain America, a character that many people don't care for (even though the comic has been written very well for a while now). Like others have expressed before me, let's hope it keeps going this way. Kudos to Marvel for getting me pumped up about one of their crosovers, it's been quite a while.

I dont think in the context of the book they were called novices, just out of their league. Like would you want the JLA to go up against Darkseid or the Teen Titans?

The New Warriors were not only bashed in Civil War, but also in the "prelude" issues. Their competence was called into question in both instances and it wasn't just a matter of being "out of their league". Like Dread, I also know that the Warriors are far more capable than this, FAR more capable; they've just been played as per their last pathetic appearance which was that travesty of a mini-series. Speaking of which, the ending was that the show was cancelled, there really was no reason for the set-up.

I guess it's still a sore point with me how a "professional" like Quesada can act so unprofessionally and want to kill off a character just because he doesn't like it and even after the fans responded (like he asked them to) that they didn't want the character killed off, it still gets put through the wringer. I hope Millar does some justice to the Speedball character but in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if they had the character commit suicide to further denigrate it. Sorry, I had to vent. Even with one of my all time favorite teams getting the axe, I still think Civil War is a very good read and have high hopes for its next installment.

[Darthphere]

Still, you had Microbe and others saying these guys had almsot taken down the Hulk, and fought Spider-man. The New Warriors can have all the experience in the world, but they are nowhere more capable to take down these villains than Spider-Man and Hulk.

[Harlekin]

It's been out for a week. Who is that interested in Infinite Crisis, and still hadn't read it?
Uhm, maybe those people that really do need to wait a week? It'll probably coming in the mail for me tomorrow or wednesday. Heck, we even got a sticky in the DC boards that urges members to keep IC spoilers confined to approiate threads and to use spoiler tags. This is the friggin' Marvel forum, and I don't want my DC spoilers here.

[owenstar]

Please, get off the high horse. Enjoying Civil War is one thing, but it's just as much "old hat" as Infinite Crisis or anything else in comics. Neither is better than the other in that respect. Get over it. :o

I didnt read IC...nor did I imply that it was better or worse...

What I was saying if you bothered to read it from your 40,000 post high horse...is that hero's fighting for no reason is old hat....hero's clashing with their villians is old hat....hero's fighting each other over something on this scale has the "possibility" to be great...

Thanks...thats all:)

[Darthphere]

I didnt read IC...nor did I imply that it was better or worse...

What I was saying if you bothered to read it from your 40,000 post high horse...is that hero's fighting for no reason is old hat....hero's clashing with their villians is old hat....hero's fighting each other over something on this scale has the "possibility" to be great...

Thanks...thats all:)


1950's JSA. Look it up.

[LadyVader]

I didnt read IC...nor did I imply that it was better or worse...

What I was saying if you bothered to read it from your 40,000 post high horse...is that hero's fighting for no reason is old hat....hero's clashing with their villians is old hat....hero's fighting each other over something on this scale has the "possibility" to be great...



A hero with no reason to fight is no hero at all and good vs evil will never be outdated or old fashioned. Sure, the world is full of gray areas, but ultimately that's why we read superhero comics. Because we want to believe that the good guys win. And mark my words, there will be a villain in this story. Even if that villain is something as generic as ignorance and fear.

[XwolverineX]

Are you the person that said GL>Surfer ?

[LadyVader]

Who, me?!

[KingOfDreams]

So I finally got to read the first issue of Civil War. It was okay. I didn't buy it. I'll wait until the second issue to see if I'm going to even bother with this event.

[Anubis]

Are you the person that said GL>Surfer ?

I'd say Ion would be.

[LadyVader]

We haven't really seen what the new Ion can do but the first one, sure. Silver Surfer could maybe give him a run for his money, but Kyle was quite literally a god.

[3dman27]

Could We Return To Discussing Civil War Please

[Anubis]

Why? I think we've said all there is to say until issue two comes out.

[Tropico]

Still, you had Microbe and others saying these guys had almsot taken down the Hulk, and fought Spider-man. The New Warriors can have all the experience in the world, but they are nowhere more capable to take down these villains than Spider-Man and Hulk.

And your point is? That every superhero should step back when they're outclassed? I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. The Warriors HAVE called on outside helped when they've been seriously out-classed. Should they have waited for Captain Marvel to come back from the dead or Genis Vell to appear to take Nitro out? I mean, they referred to Nitro as "that old Captain Marvel villain".

The writers needed sacrificial lambs, the Warriors had been turned into a joke as of late, problem solved. Like other posters have mentioned, it could have happened to any other team. They just chose this one to happen to and they conveniently happened to have Speedball in the roster.:D;)

[Darthphere]

And your point is? That every superhero should step back when they're outclassed? I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. The Warriors HAVE called on outside helped when they've been seriously out-classed. Should they have waited for Captain Marvel to come back from the dead or Genis Vell to appear to take Nitro out? I mean, they referred to Nitro as "that old Captain Marvel villain".

The writers needed sacrificial lambs, the Warriors had been turned into a joke as of late, problem solved. Like other posters have mentioned, it could have happened to any other team. They just chose this one to happen to and they conveniently happened to have Speedball in the roster.:D;)


By all accounts however Speedball isnt dead though. Also, im sorry if I were some traffic cop, and some bank robbers were holding some people hostage, I would wait til SWAT shows up and not go in there myself.

[Tropico]

By all accounts however Speedball isnt dead though. Also, im sorry if I were some traffic cop, and some bank robbers were holding some people hostage, I would wait til SWAT shows up and not go in there myself.

I know Speedball is most likely the survivor from the disaster, I made comments to that aspect in my previous post. I understand your point about how they were out-classed with the cop analogy. Still, it doesn't work that way, otherwise half the stories we read would be of the protagonist ducking out to wait for someone more suitable to handle the situation.

Your line of reasoning is probably that if the New Warriors hadn't intervened, this wouldn't have happened. We have no guarantees of that, the writers just decided it that way. I saw it coming a mile away when the "veteran"heroes were discussing it and said that it was a disaster waiting to happen and they lumped in the New Warriors with the Runaways, Young Avengers and any other new team. The thing is that the New Warriors were NOT new, they were NOT untrained and they've been "over their head" before. Reality is that the Warrior's time was over in Marvel's eyes, same can happen to the other "youth groups" when they stop raking in the cash.

[Darthphere]

I know Speedball is most likely the survivor from the disaster, I made comments to that aspect in my previous post. I understand your point about how they were out-classed with the cop analogy. Still, it doesn't work that way, otherwise half the stories we read would be of the protagonist ducking out to wait for someone more suitable to handle the situation.

Your line of reasoning is probably that if the New Warriors hadn't intervened, this wouldn't have happened. We have no guarantees of that, the writers just decided it that way. I saw it coming a mile away when the "veteran"heroes were discussing it and said that it was a disaster waiting to happen and they lumped in the New Warriors with the Runaways, Young Avengers and any other new team. The thing is that the New Warriors were NOT new, they were NOT untrained and they've been "over their head" before. Reality is that the Warrior's time was over in Marvel's eyes, same can happen to the other "youth groups" when they stop raking in the cash.


Maybe, but I wouldnt write off the new Warriors yet.

[Spider-Man™]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/Billix/Im-with-spider-man.jpg

That is awesome. :spidey::up:

[Danalys]

And your point is? That every superhero should step back when they're outclassed? I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. The Warriors HAVE called on outside helped when they've been seriously out-classed. Should they have waited for Captain Marvel to come back from the dead or Genis Vell to appear to take Nitro out? I mean, they referred to Nitro as "that old Captain Marvel villain".

The writers needed sacrificial lambs, the Warriors had been turned into a joke as of late, problem solved. Like other posters have mentioned, it could have happened to any other team. They just chose this one to happen to and they conveniently happened to have Speedball in the roster.:D;)

most experienced heros wouldn't have attacked that group of villians in a residential area.

[Harry Heck]

I stand with Cap. This is an unjust law. perhaps if thsi were a voluntary group, they would have more support. All their doing is making things harder on the people who try their hardest to save lives, and they change nothing for those who do the actual hurting. How will this law change things for Nitro, the guy who actually caused the Stamford tragedy, or other bastards?!

How can the government justify this, it violates our consitutional right against illegal search and seizure. and Hill needs to have Fury come back in just own her ass.

Just curious. Is it unfair that everyone who wants a gun (for any purpose) has to apply for a license, take a gun safety class, and then register their weapon?

I am actually with Iron Man and his camp on this one. I am not sure how I feel about the forced servitude portion of the law as it is being applied in the law written into the Civil War storyline, but I find no problem in registration. The superheroes would simply be existing on the same plane of liberty as an American who would pursue a career (i.e. doctor) or objects (i.e. guns) that could possibly affect many other people adversely if administered in a wrongful way.

[Kotagg]

From a legal and logical standpoint, I'm with Iron Man. Thus if I was an actual character in Marvel I would side with him.

From a fan and comic-reader standpoint, I know superheroes would get boring real quick if they were all government agents, so I'm with Cap. ;)

[TheCorpulent1]

Didn't the X-Men movie cover that? People are licensed to drive and use guns, but not simply to live or help others. Civil War's covering the same issue, just on a broader scale, so I think the argument still stands.
I didnt read IC...nor did I imply that it was better or worse...

What I was saying if you bothered to read it from your 40,000 post high horse...is that hero's fighting for no reason is old hat....hero's clashing with their villians is old hat....hero's fighting each other over something on this scale has the "possibility" to be great...

Thanks...thats all:)
Darthphere covered it pretty well:
1950's JSA. Look it up.
The Civil War concept has been done before, just like most other things in comics have been done before. The attitude's unnecessary.

[Darthphere]

Good lord, Corp agreed with me!

[TheCorpulent1]

You have your moments. :p

[Darthphere]

:up:

[Tropico]

most experienced heros wouldn't have attacked that group of villians in a residential area.

Most? How many battles take place between NYC's buildings? How many of Marvel's heroes are base in NY? Fights usually start in areas where people are and then the heroes try to move it to a "safer" location.

Look, I'm not arguing that the Warriors were portrayed badly in Civil War; I'm just saying that it was something that was done out of character for how the Warriors are supposed to be. I even said in previous posts taht they were portrayed consistently with the recent mini they had, which didn't get how the characters were anyway. Other people have fought Nitro in populated areas and he hasn't detonated in the same manner. Why? Because the writers didn't want him to, not because the heroes that fought him were "better" or the location was "safer". Let's see how they write Nitro in his appearances in Wolverine, 'cause if we're gonna talk about heroes suited to stop Nitro with minimal damage to property and life, Wolvie ain't it.

[XFanTim]

Didn't the X-Men movie cover that? People are licensed to drive and use guns, but not simply to live or help others. Civil War's covering the same issue, just on a broader scale, so I think the argument still stands.Yeah, the key difference here is that people choose to buy guns, no one chooses to be a mutant.

However, in the context of Civil War -- are we talking about everyone with superpowers registering with the government, or just everyone who wants to use those powers to fight crime? The latter seems more defensible than the former.

[TheCorpulent1]

Most heroes didn't choose their powers, either. I could see a better argument for using their powers as crimefighters, too, since it could be viewed as a privilege, just like owning a gun or driving. That's kind of how The Incredibles treated it, too. The government basically had the heroes register their identities, revoked their privilege to fight crime, and then shoved them off into normal, low-key lives.

[Harry Heck]

Yeah, the key difference here is that people choose to buy guns, no one chooses to be a mutant.

However, in the context of Civil War -- are we talking about everyone with superpowers registering with the government, or just everyone who wants to use those powers to fight crime? The latter seems more defensible than the former.

That is a fair question and a distinction should be made by the writer (Millar) if it hasn't been made already. Then again, by being vague, Millar can exploit the issue more easily with the audience and create more controversy. We all know that Millar is a radical, relatively speaking, so it will be all the more interesting to see where he goes with this story. He has already made Shield look pretty Gestapo-like. And Iron Man has manipulated Spider-man and the government with his assasination-rouse. To me, it seems clear that Millar is stating his side, if ever so gently.

My hope is that he does his best to keep this debate in the grey.

[Dread]

Dread...that was a great post...I read it all...lots of opinion and insight

Possibility. I dont read any comics besides Punisher (in any form). I jumped in head first to civil war because I used to read all kinds of comics. At one point I loved most of the characters involved. What I saw was possibility. I have read many threads about how bad marvel has messed up, I havent read any of that...So I still see possibility.

The only part of your thread I disagreed with is that people dont want to see the hero's fight. I do. The reason I read the Punisher is because what makes you a man is how you act/react to the challenges life throws at you. Frank Castle is pretty consistant and his world isnt F'd with often. Civil War gives the hero's I abandoned those type of situations that show what a man is....they break it down....its so raw...I want to see hero vs hero...I want to see the F4 fight each other when 2 people cant agree...I want to see each character break down and become what they are...Captain America did it in issue one....Right there in those few panels you saw a man strong in his convictions...thats story telling...thats raw...

I hope it has lasting effects...I hope there are families torn apart...friendships broken....bitter feelings...break down those walls and give the fans something they wont forget
Thanks. I can understand your opinion as a fan of the Punisher, natch. Punisher is an anti-hero whose mission will put him into conflict with much of the superhero community (at least in theory; depending on the writers, some superheroes have been just as willing to accept Punisher's help during a fight as they are in trying to capture him. Both Spider-Man and Daredevil, for instance, have both fought Punisher and fought alongside him). And I concede that some "hero vs. hero" brawls can be exciting and emotionally packed. I mean, Hulk and Thing have had HOW many brawls? Granted, Hulk is also an anti-hero. But, yes, it is part of "the superhero genre" for superheroes to fight each other over the most mundane of misunderstandings at times, usually if they're meeting a new hero for the first time.

"Golly, its someone new with tights and powers! Most villians wear dark colors like black, purple, green, and so on...this guy's in red, white, and yellow. But he MUST be a villian, let me punch first and if he's innocent, he'll...uh, take his beating and not fight back!"

BrainWilly has stated a few times that the "hero vs. hero" thing is usually contrived and not written very well, and usually just serves to make superheroes look like unreasonable boobs (which may be part of why the Runaways don't take adults seriously).

My point was that eventually, I think the audience wants to see an overall triumph of good over evil; despite the dark nature of DC's recent crossovers, INFINITE CRISIS had that. Much like CIVIL WAR, it offered an ideological clash; old vs. new. Was "old" really "better" and new is automatically "worse"? Or is it all a matter of perception and nostaligia that clouds reality? CIVIL WAR also has an ideological agruement over whether the concept of unliscenced vigilantes without any accountability is still viable as comics enter the 21st century (Marvel is unforunatly framing it as political, because Liberals hate Bush, which may date it if they are not careful. Granted, Marvel's historically never been afriad of being dated; just look at all of their Cold War material or references to a then-current war, Vietnam, where Tony Stark, Frank Castle, and Flash Thompson once served).

A good example of something like this working on both levels is the "Camdus" arc from last season's JLU. In the beginning it looked like it would be a "heroes vs. government" story as the government was looking for some way to "check" the power of the JLU (whose roster includes many demi-gods, and they had an orbital canon). The finale, however, revealed the true manipulators of both sides as villians -- Lex Luthor and Brainiac specifically, and it turned into a good vs. evil brawl. In theory, some could call it a "cop-out" of the original story, and maybe it was. But it was so entertaining, done so well, that I doubt anyone really cared or noticed. Doing what has been done before is not exactly a bad thing, so long as you do it well. And a new spin on something doesn't hurt. The Busiek/Perez run of AVENGERS wasn't as radical as, say, NEW AVENGERS, but they had some new spins to add to delivering said "formula" efficiently.

Villians have been mentioned in the talks about CIVIL WAR, and there have been promises that they won't "cop out" and claim that some "villian" is behind it. Given that Marvel cares nothing about revealing spoilers anymore, even when spoilers are ALL a story has (like DEADLY GENESIS), I may take them for their word. That's admirable, but my one fear about CW is that it may end with a sour taste in one's mouth. Which would be a shame, because it is starting out well; one of Marvel's better crossover events in the past 2 years or so.

Now to add to Tropicko's points about the NEW WARRIORS, the problem with the team, as I have said before, were they they were a casualty of the 90's. They formed in the early 90's as a way to maybe ape some of the success of TEEN TITANS (which was dueling the X-Men for sales throughout the 80's) as well as give a number of teen characters who'd popped up something to do; much as, in a way, titles like RUNAWAYS and YOUNG AVENGERS have done for the 21st century (and 90's characters). The problem was that the 90's were a time of excess in the industry, as well as some questionable designs and story tendancies, and in a way the NEW WARRIORS bore the brunt of these decisions and "hip for the moment" practices; they ended their first volume being shoe-horned as a "Spider-Book" with the membership of Scarlet Spider, for instance. The title never recovered; their 2000 revamp failed to entice readers and lasted less than a year, and ever since they have become something of a joke in the pages of the Marvel Bullpen and WIZARD, their members reduced to occasional guest appearences and mentions; becoming something like ROAD RULES in MTV (a once hot "reality" show that is now almost nothing like its former glory). The characters and title seemed to get associated with that 90's excess, and sadly rather than see that as being a mistake, future writers and editors saw it as "canon". The interesting thing about comics is that you can make a mistake with a title for years, and when you leave, future writers will see the mistake as "canonical" and never improve it; one example being Havok's "crybaby brother" syndrome that remains unchanged since the 70's. It keeps titles that stunk in the celler, and characters that have reached a stale point nowhere to go. The only answer to revive interest in these characters has usually been...death. The quick, easy, instantaneous choice.

RUNAWAYS and YOUNG AVENGERS prove in a way that NEW WARRIORS could have worked, had they been revisioned without the old flaws and handled in a serious, modern way. Both these titles introduced new teen heroes and both got critical acclaim (RUNAWAYS sells better in digest than monthly, but still better than some books). But the NEW WARRIORS never got that, so they meandered. Their last mini seemed to repeat that mistake; it merged them with ANOTHER "hot for the moment" topic, reality TV. The goopy, Bachelo-crossed-with-manga art from Young also didn't help. They're sacrificial lambs, but probably easy ones.

I feel sorry for Speedball. A creation of Ditko, someone who just earlier this year got to co-star for MTU's best arc, LEAGUE OF LOSERS, as well as make out with cult hit Squirrel Girl in MASKED INTENTIONS is pretty much geared for his crucifixition. Nitro has often been battled in "public" before; the HEROES FOR HIRE once took him on in a city, for instance, back during the 90's, and as one said, no one has chosen to use him in the regard that Millar had. In defense of Millar, however, given his nature and powers, such an event was only a matter of time. Much like having Hulk just lay waste to neighborhoods and cities was eventually going to have someone get hurt or die, same with a guy whose power is to explode. There are still members of New Warriors left alive, and the tragedy could spurge a regrowth and revamp of the team, much as DISASSEMBLED gave way for YOUNG AVENGERS. Founding NW's Nova, Firestar, and Justice are still alive; the adopted son of Night-Thrasher, Rage, has, um, a reason to feel "enraged" (sigh, and remain in the rut he always has). Later members Ricochet and Darkhawk are in L.A., but may be busy with Excelsior (or could they try to bring their old teammates in? Expand Excelsior?). And the jobber NW Microbe can be replaced with their longtime hanger-on, Hindsight Lad, if they so chose (as well as to sort of mock DC's LEGION OF SUPERHEROES property, since nearly every male member is "Something-Lad" or "Something-Boy").

An interesting article about both of Marvel and DC's "events" can be found here: http://www.ninthart.com/a10/

[ToddIsDead]

I enjoyed the first issue. I'm going to try to just read the main story and forget the tie-ins. I'm in bed with DC at the moment and don't really have the monetary means to be buying hundreds of CW tie-ins. It's been done before, but I think this should be a cool story. I'm digging the art too. Nice and shiny.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm in bed with DC at the moment
How is it? I heard it'll blow you away during, but it gets kind of needy afterwards. :(

[ToddIsDead]

Yeah, it's kind of klingy, but I can deal. It's all about the communication, and you have to being willing to go down for the team, if you know what I mean. I can always run to Marvel or Image if it gets too rough though.

Anyway, I keep picking up more and more DC books, so I'm not going to try to really break into the MU too much yet.

[Won '08]

Honestly? I'm a Spider-Man obsessed fan so I'd side with him on the premisis that..."Hey...I have a wife and an aunt who could get killed if I put my face on TV"

I felt him when he stated "I think most of the costumes would just quit..."

He doesn't want to go against the majority, understanding their position, but also he wouldn't endager his family....there lies the dilema.....

Will the writers portray Spids the way he should be portrayed? Peter....as we all know would more than likely be on Cap's current side.

Think of it....Cap stood his ground, no matter the cost. He's now an enemy of state....

Would Pete really struggle with such a decision that Cap had already made his mind up on before he even stepped into that Heli-Carrier?

[owenstar]

Didn't the X-Men movie cover that? People are licensed to drive and use guns, but not simply to live or help others. Civil War's covering the same issue, just on a broader scale, so I think the argument still stands.

Darthphere covered it pretty well:

The Civil War concept has been done before, just like most other things in comics have been done before. The attitude's unnecessary.

Yeah, since you were so civil??? Dont act like I called you out...my attitude is just fine

Again it boils down to reading..."I ONLY READ PUNISHER"...I dont read 1950's JSA...I said "POSSIBILITY" to be great...I will give you this 1950's JSA, thats fine....60 years ago...I wouldnt say that in invalidates what civil war can be if they do it right....This type of situation can burn new images of old characters in your mind...it can "possibly" be the best event in years

Dread,

I appreciate the comments...I hate when the punisher crosses over with other hero's....Punisher is more reality based...and while I dont care for Ennis...he keeps him tied down, which is good...Writers tend to make the punisher a moron in crossovers...it sucks...its the bane of my existence....I am excited to see how they fit it in this time...but only time will tell

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought I was quite civil. I didn't call you names or anything, I just asked you to stop looking down your nose at everyone who doesn't like Civil War as if they're idiots who can't appreciate a novel concept. I felt it necessary to point out the fact that it's not novel and that nothing about heroes fighting heroes inherently grants it more merit than a heroes vs. villains story. If you didn't know about the HUAC story from JSA, that's fine; you probably shouldn't condescend to others about "old hat" if that's the case, though. Someone might call you on it.

Anyway, if you were offended, I apologize. Squaresies? :)

[spiderwasp]

I know it's been hinted that Spidey might side with "The Boss" but I definately agree that he should be with Cap on this. The problem is that if the writers are going to split this issue down the middle, they may have to go out on a limb in order to get enough characters to side with Ironman.

It makes sense that Reed goes along since the FF have never had secret identities anyway, but the whole team can't be on the same side or it wouldn't be much of a civil war. Yellowjacket has always enjoyed the notoriety of being a scientific genius (As the Wasp once pointed out, he even named his most famous invention "Pym particles") so I can see how he wouldn't sympathize with the folks who want to keep their identities secret. She-Hulk is another who relishes in who she is and is likely to side with Tony. But after that, I don't see many others being on his side except for a few lesser flunkies like USAgent who has always kissed up to the government. Even Tony himself seems like a stretch since, for many years, he kept his identity a secret even from his teammates. I think he's always thought a little too much of his own opinion though, so I can justify that if he has changed his mind, he would consider that his new stance has suddenly become the only right choice.
As far as Cap's side goes - he surely should have all the street level guys like Spidey, DD, Falcon, Cage, etc. on his side. Dr. Strange has always lived shrouded in secrecy so he makes sense and I can't imagine how they will explain ANY mutant deciding that this registration is a good thing. Didn't they fight mutant registration a while back? Is this suddenly different? Will half of them decide that "Oh, mutant registration is a problem, but as long as it applies to everyone with powers, it's okay?"

I look forward to seeing how the sides continue to form.

[owenstar]

I thought I was quite civil. I didn't call you names or anything, I just asked you to stop looking down your nose at everyone who doesn't like Civil War as if they're idiots who can't appreciate a novel concept. I felt it necessary to point out the fact that it's not novel and that nothing about heroes fighting heroes inherently grants it more merit than a heroes vs. villains story. If you didn't know about the HUAC story from JSA, that's fine; you probably shouldn't condescend to others about "old hat" if that's the case, though. Someone might call you on it.

Anyway, if you were offended, I apologize. Squaresies? :)

Sorry if it came off that way...I didnt mean for it to...I meant it like..."gee I am excited, this could kick serious ass"..."this is gonna be cool...dont be such a downer"

Hero vs villian is old hat...its done every week....Something like civil war isnt...you can disagree if you want...I just dont feel the same way...something 60 years ago in DC doesnt click as old hat to me...but, if marvel F's it up...it could be old hat

I seriously wasnt trying to condescend...its all good dude...

[Superbeasto]

Hey I just got the first issue of Civil War, and i think the plot is very interesting, love the art, and i hope to see Iron Man kicking some Captain America's butt

[Nick Eastwood]

I just made this, seeing as how there seems to be a glutton of I'm with ___ spoofs running around:

I miss Banshee, but his death allowed me to do this: http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/MrHemisphere/CWimwithdeadguy.jpg

[Spectre722]

what i didn't understand about the new warriors disaster is why in the hell speedball was calling the shots? nightthrasher's the leader and he's taking orders from speedball. my only complaint about civil war was that the new warriors were depicted way out of character. speedball being an ******* leader, nightthrasher complaining about how coldheart called him "bondage queen", microbe being overconfident and making sarcastic remarks about nightthrasher, and namorita being concerned about a zit on her chin.

[Superbeasto]

what i didn't understand about the new warriors disaster is why in the hell speedball was calling the shots? nightthrasher's the leader and he's taking orders from speedball. my only complaint about civil war was that the new warriors were depicted way out of character. speedball being an ******* leader, nightthrasher complaining about how coldheart called him "bondage queen", microbe being overconfident and making sarcastic remarks about nightthrasher, and namorita being concerned about a zit on her chin.
That´s the point, the irresponsable behavior of superheroes, wich is maximized when the ratings of a reallity t.v show are more important than actually getting rid of the bad guys, that happens in so meny levels, the first time i read something like this in comic books was in the MARVEL series by alex ross

[Superbeasto]

oooo and yes, Night Trasher should be calling the shots

[Frico]

I can't wait for that Luke Cage issue!!

[twylight]

I thought it was very good. :up:

However I picked it up at 25% off one sale at my comic book store, so I think I'll wait till the TBP comes out for the rest.

[Superbeasto]

Do you guys know if Captain America is going to be like in the WANTED list of the goverment, cause the escape from the SHIELD base did not help him too much

[KingOfDreams]

I wonder if Cap's going to put on the black costume again.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think it'd be cool if Cap continued wearing the current costume, basically as a symbolic flip of the bird to the American government. He'd basically be saying, "You can plaster my face across wanted posters, but I still embody the American spirit a hell of a lot more than you do." Captain America: Prisoner of Principle! :D
Sorry if it came off that way...I didnt mean for it to...I meant it like..."gee I am excited, this could kick serious ass"..."this is gonna be cool...dont be such a downer"

Hero vs villian is old hat...its done every week....Something like civil war isnt...you can disagree if you want...I just dont feel the same way...something 60 years ago in DC doesnt click as old hat to me...but, if marvel F's it up...it could be old hat

I seriously wasnt trying to condescend...its all good dude...
You're right, hero vs. villain is old hat. But hero vs. hero and social commentaries are pretty much old hat at this point too, which is what I was saying. Everything's been done in comics, including very, very close approximations to Civil War's story. Not just in the HUAC incident with the JSA, either--right there at Marvel with the Mutant Registration Act, in the possible future presented in 1602 that Cap escaped from, and, I'm sure, others.

Anyway, sorry for misconstruing earlier. Everything's copacetic now. It's almost enough to bring a tear to my eye. Luckily, my cold, dead heart and burnt-out tear ducts prevent that. ;)

[Dread]

what i didn't understand about the new warriors disaster is why in the hell speedball was calling the shots? nightthrasher's the leader and he's taking orders from speedball. my only complaint about civil war was that the new warriors were depicted way out of character. speedball being an ******* leader, nightthrasher complaining about how coldheart called him "bondage queen", microbe being overconfident and making sarcastic remarks about nightthrasher, and namorita being concerned about a zit on her chin.
Fair points. All of those are true; usually Night-Thrasher is the leader, and they were all lippy. And as several have mentioned, their reality show was cancelled at the end of their mini (which Joe Q attempts to sell in the last two pages).

I imagine Spider-Man will be very conflicted. He'll probably be the reader's way into the conflict. One picture that showed this divide with his old/new costume and alliances in the background. While the black "Captain" suit was quite cool, I don't see a reason for Cap to change his threads; quite the contrary, he should remind America of the red, white, blue, and letting unregulated vigilantes prowl the streets.

Another side of the debate, which I am wondering if it will come up, are heroes who are ALREADY affiliated with the government in some way. One example is Tigra, who is a police officer. USAgent (or whatever the hell he is calling himself now) was often connected to the feds, and so on.

[TheCorpulent1]

Spider-Man seems pretty obviously set up to reclaim some of his everyman appeal by being the readers' primary POV character for Civil War. That image of him split down the center with the Iron Spidey costume and Iron Man on one side, and his normal costume and Cap on the other is a pretty clear visual hint of that. I think he'll be the most conflicted and thus will analyze the sides more closely, thus providing the reader with all kinds of tasty exposition on each side's view.

[owenstar]

bahahaha

You definately know your stuff...I dont mind being called out on being out of the loop...I have been in a cold place with just the punisher since maximum carnage? maybe since when wolverine lost his adamantium...batman had a broken back...Plus I am only 26 so 50's comics arent my style...

Having survived the zombisher...and punisher joins the mob...multiple crappy team ups...and Ennis...My heart is probably just as black...bahahaha

Enjoy your day...I am in the Civil War for the long haul

"I'm with Frank Castle"

[Nightwing]

Do you guys know if Captain America is going to be like in the WANTED list of the goverment, cause the escape from the SHIELD base did not help him too much

Well, Millar has mentioned that within the series there is a hero who get arrested. He also noted that it's one of the defining moments of the series, Captain America was listed as a candidate. As well as, Iron Man, Nick Fury, and The Punisher.

[Superbeasto]

When i first heard about CIvil War i wasnt gonna buy it, but after reading the first issue (wich i purchased) im going to buy the upcoming numbers and the wolverine run with humberto ramos

I just want to say...




... Im with Cyclops

[owenstar]

Well, Millar has mentioned that within the series there is a hero who get arrested. He also noted that it's one of the defining moments of the series, Captain America was listed as a candidate. As well as, Iron Man, Nick Fury, and The Punisher.

I think Castle gets arrested...

1. he doesnt fight cops

2. I have read/been told that he ends up in a van on the run with only a .22 and a shotgun

[Tropico]

Unless the New Warrior survivor was already picked up immediately after the disaster it could be him/her (Speedball). In solicitations for July it says that he's in jail.

[Spider-Man™]

Spider-Man seems pretty obviously set up to reclaim some of his everyman appeal by being the readers' primary POV character for Civil War. That image of him split down the center with the Iron Spidey costume and Iron Man on one side, and his normal costume and Cap on the other is a pretty clear visual hint of that. I think he'll be the most conflicted and thus will analyze the sides more closely, thus providing the reader with all kinds of tasty exposition on each side's view.

I agree, that image we've seen of Spidey with both his costumes tells me we'll be seeing that "appeal" of his.

[ToddIsDead]

I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but what exactly is happening in CW: Frontlines? And are there any tie-ins that will be essential besides the main, 7 issue series?

Thanks in advanced.

[Anubis]

Ever read the Pulse? Or that Generation M mini? Like that. Seeing the story from the regular persons perspective, through the eyes of Reporter Ben Urich and some other reporter.

[ToddIsDead]

Cool. Any tie-ins that you'd suggest I pick up to enhance my CW experience?

[Anubis]

Well, I'm already getting most of the tie-ins, because they're already on my pull list. ASM, New Avengers, Thunderbolts,X-Factor, Cable/Deadpool,She-Hulk, Black Panther, and Fantastic Four.

Of the ones I don't already get would be Wolverine. And, well, I'm kinda sick of Wolverine, so, I probably wont bother. But I may pick up Frontline and the Young Avengers/Runaways mini. So, I would suggest those two. It's up to you really. whose perspective on the situation sounds more interesting to you? Spidey or the FF? Black Panther or the Mutants of X-Factor? It's all about your preference at this point.

[jaydawg]

Ever read the Pulse? Or that Generation M mini? Like that. Seeing the story from the regular persons perspective, through the eyes of Reporter Ben Urich and some other reporter.
Plus its also going to show how villains are going to take advantage of the current situation, including Norman Osborn.

[ToddIsDead]

I may not get any of the tie-ins, because like I said earlier, I'm getting too many books to start collecting a bunch of Marvel stuff now. I may get Frontlines, and maybe some Spider-Man stuff.

[Anubis]

Well, get what works for you man. Anything you missed you can find out here.

[Anubis]

Plus its also going to show how villains are going to take advantage of the current situation, including Norman Osborn.

I think Frontline might end up being one of the more interesting tie-ins.

[ToddIsDead]

Yeah, I think I'm just going to play it by ear. If anything pops out at me, I'll consider picking it up, otherwise, I'll probably just check out what's happening here.

[jaydawg]

I think Frontline might end up being one of the more interesting tie-ins.
Definitely. With an event like this where its promised that a villain wont be behind anything (which frankly is a breath of fresh air), I think telling a story from a villain's POV is essencial..... and being the Goblin fan that I am, I was particularly excited to hear about Norman being at the frontline. If you ask me, its about time he started getting some coverage in these big crossover stories.

[Vanguard07]

Anyone here familiar with the good samaritan law? Just thought i'd bring this up as a point for cap's side:

Basically the law states that it is illegal to let another person die or let serious harm come to them if it is within your power to help them without significant risk to your own health and safety.
That said, anyone with significant super powers falls under that category since their powers greatly diminish the risk to their own lives. Their costumes also diminish the risk to their own lives since helping bring down supervillains makes you a lot of enemies.

The Civil War thing is trying to argue that superheroing is illegal. It occured to me that current law already states that that isnt true if you look at it the right way.

[LadyVader]

^ Yeah, I remember that Seinfeld episode. :)

[Vanguard07]

That was in a seinfeld episode? dammit and here i thought i was having an original thought. Damn you Jerry!

[jaydawg]

Well it was the incredibly disappointing finale.

[BrianWilly]

Yeah, but that good Samaritan law thing feels like arguing the fallacy of the registration based on a technicality. I think that the registration itself is flawed enough without needing any technicalities.

[Anubis]

Well, you gotta admit, it was original. Everybody goes to jail. Who saw that one coming?

[LobokDaikon]

That Good Samaritan law doesn't apply to the whole country though, does it? I thought that was why the writers had Jerry and co. stranded in that town as opposed to New York.

[Kotagg]

It's only in some states, and very few actually have serious repercussions for it.

[3dman27]

Anyone here familiar with the good samaritan law? Just thought i'd bring this up as a point for cap's side:

Basically the law states that it is illegal to let another person die or let serious harm come to them if it is within your power to help them without significant risk to your own health and safety.
That said, anyone with significant super powers falls under that category since their powers greatly diminish the risk to their own lives. Their costumes also diminish the risk to their own lives since helping bring down supervillains makes you a lot of enemies.

The Civil War thing is trying to argue that superheroing is illegal. It occured to me that current law already states that that isnt true if you look at it the right way.excellent point vanguard

[chris moore]

You can see from Spider-Man's input in issue #1 where he is most likely to stand. But the uniform, and the placing of him in virtually every cover posted on the net so far suggest he's with Tony. Where the heck is he on things?!

There's just too much risk of the "few" government people who have a list of the ID's of all the heroes (should the act go ahead and everything work out that way) who are registered (even if they keep their ID's secret to the public and continue to wear masks) leaking that information or using it themselves for their own goals. Nick Fury and maybe a couple other SHIELD agents know the ID's of a fair few heroes - I'd be happy if they were all sanctioned under SHIELD with only the commander at the time knowing who was who (and even that is dodgy - but we all know Nick is never in charge of SHIELD for long enough before someoneelse gets appointed for a stint). Not employed to do the government's work - but accountable for whatever repurcussions there are to their individual or team efforts to do what they already do.

Impossible at this stage to be able to tell what's coming though...

[Darthphere]

The Watcher says in issue #2: "Nikka, you be crazy not to side with mah boy Captain America." I swear to god, he said it.

[blah]

*twitch*

[Superbeasto]

Whayt do you guys think about the heroes that appear in the Baxter Building, some of them are really political important, several leaders, like dr.strange, cyclops or mr. fantastic, but some others were pretty lame, dont you think??? there was this guy "shadowhawk" i think, who the hell is he??? his name sounds familiar but the costume dont, and the final pannel shows 3 heroes, Iron man, Mr. Fantastic, and another guy that i dont know who he is :confused:

[Dread]

Anyone here familiar with the good samaritan law? Just thought i'd bring this up as a point for cap's side:

Basically the law states that it is illegal to let another person die or let serious harm come to them if it is within your power to help them without significant risk to your own health and safety.
That said, anyone with significant super powers falls under that category since their powers greatly diminish the risk to their own lives. Their costumes also diminish the risk to their own lives since helping bring down supervillains makes you a lot of enemies.

The Civil War thing is trying to argue that superheroing is illegal. It occured to me that current law already states that that isnt true if you look at it the right way.
Spider-Man (or Peter Parker, I forget which part it was) during ASM's PRELUDE TO CIVIL WAR 3-parter "Mr. Parker Goes to Washington" brought up something along these lines, to sort of not be as harsh on "registration" and just do something like that "Good Samaritan" law for superheroes. It didn't fly with the members of Congress. I think because Spider-Man wouldn't take off his mask, and put his name and data on record, and so therefore his testimony was useless because they couldn't legally record it or hold him accountable for his words. Even police who testify undercover are not "mystery men", the government knows their names and so on; it just may be kept out of the media for the actual trial. The Congress sees this act as a way of asserting some control and influence over beings they feel thay have no way of policing or holding accountable. This was naturally before the NEW WARRIORS debacle with Nitro (less than a day before, according to ASM's pages).

All I'm thinking is that this is a GREAT time to be a supervillian. Firstly, despite the fact that Nitro CHOSE to explode where he was, rather than, say, surrender like Namorita asked him to do, the New Warriors are getting the fall for this, with only a handful of "anti-hero vigilantes" like Wolverine or Namor even bothering to go after Nitro. Secondly, during the CIVIL WAR, a villian's heroic nemesis may become an enemy of the state and either get "taken down" for you, or be kept so busy that you can go about your crooked business. If the government and SHIELD's task forces are occupied fighting half the heroes in the U.S., who's stopping Shocker from knocking over the diamond district? Thirdly, if your heroic enemy does get registered, it's become a lot easier to discover their identities and relatives; all you need is either to bribe the right corruptable bureaucrat (hell, in Washington, you'd have a harder time finding an HONEST one) or hire some sophiscated hacker (like Black Box) to just hack into these files and pluck 'em. And finally, a villian could manage to become a hero by "offering" their services to the government if their heroic foil happens to now be an "enemy of the state". Historically, Marvel's U.S. Government has been INCREDIBLY accommodating to "reformed villians" who decide to become government "soldiers", no matter how nasty their rap sheet may be. Freedom Force originally was made up of Mystique's Brotherhood, criminals all, for a while before more "legit" regulars like Super Sabre and Crimson Commando got added. Venom once was contracted to work for the government breifly towards the end of his "lethal protector" days, and he's a bonafide killer. Even Sabretooth was dumped onto government-run X-Factor or whatever if they found a means of controlling him, and he's a mass killer. I even recall some FF issue during the 90's where Puppet Master was working for the feds somewhere, too. My point is that while the government in the MU is usually quick to hunt down superheroes for the flimsiest of reasons (look at all the grief a hero like Daredevil has gone under), any supervillian, no matter how much blood is on his/her hands, can be made into an "agent" if they sign enough dotted lines. And this isn't even counting some of the folks running around THUNDERBOLTS.

So, villians may end up being some of the real "winners" of Civil War if they play their cards right. Much like in real life, only the good guys play by the rules; the bad guys always take advantage of the illegal loopholes. Sort of like what critics of anti-gun restrictions usually claim; that "restrictions" on legal ownership of firearms only effect law abiding citizens and aid criminals, who rarely use legally bought (and trackable) guns, and benefit from knowing most of their victims are defenseless. And before someone mentions Britain (which is so strictly anti-gun that their police officers don't carry them), note that ever since that policy has come to light, their crime rate has barely budged, and stabbings have increased about 300%. Criminals even used to brag on the news about knowing their targets were helpless. The lesson is that often times, retrictions on the "good guys" basically tie their hands, while those who never follow rules anyway usually get off scot free.

On the other hand, I doubt this will effect Punisher or some other anti-heroes much, because they never pretended to operate by the rules.

[Arkady Rossovich]

http://img15.imgspot.com/u/06/128/11/PRIME1147187536.JPG

[PWN3R]

No one has yet to make a Piotr one....:(

[Ookami_Wolf1]

Whayt do you guys think about the heroes that appear in the Baxter Building, some of them are really political important, several leaders, like dr.strange, cyclops or mr. fantastic, but some others were pretty lame, dont you think??? there was this guy "shadowhawk" i think, who the hell is he??? his name sounds familiar but the costume dont, and the final pannel shows 3 heroes, Iron man, Mr. Fantastic, and another guy that i dont know who he is :confused:

The guy you do not know is Hank Pym a.k.a. Ant Man I, Giant Man I, Yellowjacket and possibly more. He is only one of the founders of the Avengers, a nobody really :P

[TheCorpulent1]

http://img15.imgspot.com/u/06/128/11/PRIME1147187536.JPG
I think most of the Internet community would side with Superwhiner Prime by default. ;)

[Dread]

Whayt do you guys think about the heroes that appear in the Baxter Building, some of them are really political important, several leaders, like dr.strange, cyclops or mr. fantastic, but some others were pretty lame, dont you think??? there was this guy "shadowhawk" i think, who the hell is he??? his name sounds familiar but the costume dont, and the final pannel shows 3 heroes, Iron man, Mr. Fantastic, and another guy that i dont know who he is :confused:
Shadowhawk is from Image.

You may be referring to Nighthawk, who had one line and was sort of a C-Stringer of the Defenders (an "unofficial" team of the MU's heaviest hitters, but most unlikely teammates, led by Dr. Strange and consisting of Hulk, Namor, and Silver Surfer with other longtime members being Nighthawk, Gargoyle, Hellcat, and Valkyre). Nighthawk was last seen back in action in THE THING #1-3 (which is a great title).

[Nasty-B]

Anyone here familiar with the good samaritan law? Just thought i'd bring this up as a point for cap's side:

Basically the law states that it is illegal to let another person die or let serious harm come to them if it is within your power to help them without significant risk to your own health and safety.
That said, anyone with significant super powers falls under that category since their powers greatly diminish the risk to their own lives. Their costumes also diminish the risk to their own lives since helping bring down supervillains makes you a lot of enemies.

The Civil War thing is trying to argue that superheroing is illegal. It occured to me that current law already states that that isnt true if you look at it the right way.

You're only obligated to act if there is a good samaritan law in effect. Otherwise, you have absolutely no duty to help other people.

[i'm Spider-Man]

what really interests me about the Civil War, in terms of who-takes-what-side-in-the-war-itself, is which people, if any, will take a side that contrasts against their own profile?

My prime examples are in fact the leaders of the two sides:

Captain America's identity has been public for some time now. He lives without fear of recrimination or attack upon his person by a deranged super-villain - mainly because he's macho enough to just kick their Ass£s. :)

Iron Man's identity has been public, then secret, then public, then secret. At the moment, it's secret, but suddenly Tony's going all 'futurist' and declaring the heroes should register as a preventative measure to future problems.

The decisions of these two men run against their own personal choices, but reflect on their own beliefs and ideals for the superhero community at large; Cap is defending the rights of his peers whilst Iron Man is hoping to spearhead a 'bold new frontier', as it were.

I'm intrigued to see who takes similar action; someone mentioned earlier about Luke Cage siding with Cap, which to me seems appropriate to the character, but I thought his I.D. was fairly public knowledge - "Luke Cage, Avenger, currently residing at Avengers Tower, NYC". He'd be fighting for his family though, to protect them and their right to privacy.

Well like i said, we'll see who takes what side eh?

[GreatGuardsman!]

I'm with Cap.

[Tropico]

No one has yet to make a Piotr one....:(

Is that so?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/DDude/ColBanner.jpg

[Vanguard07]

They're not just proposing you register your identities though. You tell your identity to the government who supposedly will keep it confidential (like we believe that'll work) but they're also talking about requiring government training and making Superheroes accountable. That'll likely mean having to file paperwork and reports and such.

Even if your identity is already public there are a lot of reasons to be against this act.

Oh and btw. If they're making all superheroes register and become government sanctioned, does that mean they'd be getting a government paycheck? Or do they expect people like Spidey to go out patrolling all day long, fight a dozen villains that are out of his league every month and every b-list villain on earth, plus stop muggings, bank robberies etc and still maintain a steady job?
I dont think wage would really win most of the against-ers over but i was curious cause i dont think payment has been mentioned anywhere.

[LadyVader]

This idea is starting to sound more and more ridiculous.
I can see it now.

"Oh Man. I tore my cape. Now i have to fill in my Z69 form, in triplicate."
:)

[rjb182]

Oh and btw. If they're making all superheroes register and become government sanctioned, does that mean they'd be getting a government paycheck? Or do they expect people like Spidey to go out patrolling all day long, fight a dozen villains that are out of his league every month and every b-list villain on earth, plus stop muggings, bank robberies etc and still maintain a steady job?
I dont think wage would really win most of the against-ers over but i was curious cause i dont think payment has been mentioned anywhere.

A paycheck was mentioned at least once in CW #1-- during the Hill/Cap debate. So yeah, I'm pretty sure Spidey would be on the payroll.

I've said this before, but I break it down just this simply:

a) If Super-Heroes really existed, would the government want to train, license, and (yes) to some degree control them? and

b) Would the government be with the reasonable, non-tyrannical rights of a traditional democracy to do so?

I think the answer to both those questions is yes. So I'm with Iron Man.

[owenstar]

All I'm thinking is that this is a GREAT time to be a supervillian. If the government and SHIELD's task forces are occupied fighting half the heroes in the U.S., who's stopping Shocker from knocking over the diamond district? .

Frank Castle thats who....I really think thats why he was brought into the Civil War...one, he knows war...two, he doesnt have a secret identity....three, he doesnt operate under any rules...four, he is more determined than 95% of "real" hero's...fivc, he has nothing to lose

His new War Journal title is about him hunting super villians....with most of the hero's tied up in this crap someone has to get the job done...and with them being tied up, the punisher doesnt have to worry about the morallity lesson from spiderman or daredevil when he busts a cap in Shocker...I think the Police Departments on the street would be more than happy to see Castle than to try and face dangerous super villians alone...

I could be wrong...but its exciting to be a punisher fan right now

(where is the killer "I'm with Frank Castle" banner?? I am begging folks):unishr:

[chris moore]

We saw what happened to laws on non-mutant superpowered beings over in the Ultimate Universe.

While I can see the merit and importance of sanctioned superheroes such as when the Avengers had government support and security clearances, I cannot agree with every metahuman (so far there is no disctinction between mutant and non-mutant in the legislation) being legally required to reveal everything about themselves (and possibly forcibly undergo substantial testing to determine the nature of their powers and what field of the new task force they should be assigned to) and told where to go and what to fight.

Best case:
1) Obtain a way of identifying each superhero without revealing their identity (retinal or something so its a method whereby there is no chance of their civilian identities having the same record somewhere), so that copycats and villains out to besmudge their name cant lay the blame on the real good guys. But the good guys can be held accountable for any damage, harm to public etc.

2) Have each superhero undergo surface analysis of their powers to determine the source (such as one hero being powered by internal nuclear reactions and leaking those energies dangerously when not in complete control - cos that'd be danbgerous for the public on a normal day, let alone when ins a devastating battle above the city) by a scientist such as Reed Richards who is trusted by the government not to withold pertinent information, but also trusted by the heroes not to take a sample of DNA or something to create their own army like some people in the government might.

3) Sanction all superheroes who agree to these conditions, to operate freely as they previously have done, but to turn all regular criminals over to the police, and all super villains (even the ones who have no powers such as boomerang, bullseye, trapster) to a new SHIELD section. This must be done at the time and either in person, or wait until the appropriate authorities arrive (no webbing them to lamposts and leavin em there until a beat cop might walk by).

4) ID confirmed at time of apprehension of villain to record which hero caught who and when

None of these terms mean they work for the government - they just answer for the actions to them. The retinal IDing is fine so long as a hero is willing to go to a facilty to have their ID confirmed after an incident. Cos if they arent willing, then that detracts from their responsibilities as a hero then doesnt it? And that makes them the very problem even those against registration agree on...

[Darren Daring]

(even the ones who have no powers such as boomerang, bullseye, trapster)

So what makes a super villain? The funny costume?

[Harlekin]

Banner-recap! Part I

http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JF49art/IronMan_425x100.jpg ~ Marvel
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JF49art/CaptAmer_425x100.jpg ~ Marvel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Daimoah/CivilWarThor.png ~ Harlekin
http://www.tkindred.com/images/kotagg/fruiter.jpg ~ Kotagg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/566/superboy017qz.jpg ~ mr. black
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8642/im030nj.jpg ~ mr. black
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7740/im044pg.jpg ~ mr. black

[Harlekin]

Banner-recap! Part II

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/9853/civmaria011rg.jpg ~ mr. black
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f37/DeadFett/civilwarstupid1tx.jpg ~ XwolverineX
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e351/beioski/imwithjoe.jpg ~ hippie_hunter
http://i3.tinypic.com/xcomcg.jpg ~ hippie_hunter
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/Billix/Im-with-spider-man.jpg ~ XwolverineX
http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/MrHemisphere/CWimwithdeadguy.jpg ~ Nick Eastwood
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/DDude/ColBanner.jpg ~ Tropico

[chris moore]

Well, the moronic Dir. Hill said that she always thought supervillains were people in masks who broke the law - but she was just being patronising to Cap really.

I guess a supervillain is a criminal who has a particular talent, power or unique technological apparatus that they use for criminalistic endeavours that most often endanger public lives. A guy with a gun in a bank is a regular criminal; a guy with a sonic blaster or a harness that shatters steel in a bank is a supervillain. Basically a supervillain would be a criminal who has something that surpasses anything even special task forces of the police are equipped with.
Maybe a supervillain is the equivalent of what Gary Oldman said in Batman Begins about Escalation.

[Darren Daring]

Well, the moronic Dir. Hill said that she always thought supervillains were people in masks who broke the law - but she was just being patronising to Cap really.

I guess a supervillain is a criminal who has a particular talent, power or unique technological apparatus that they use for criminalistic endeavours that most often endanger public lives. A guy with a gun in a bank is a regular criminal; a guy with a sonic blaster or a harness that shatters steel in a bank is a supervillain. Basically a supervillain would be a criminal who has something that surpasses anything even special task forces of the police are equipped with.
Maybe a supervillain is the equivalent of what Gary Oldman said in Batman Begins about Escalation.
But take that sonic blaster away, put them in the county lock up and they're Joe nobodies.

[chris moore]

That's true - but when they have it, it usually takes what we term as a superhero (and that term could be as loose as supervillain if we get technical as Black Widow, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, MoonKnight, Nightthrasher etc are powerless but have skills and equipment) to take them down. And they must have gotten the tech from somewhere or made it themselves or something - so that makes them more of a risk than ordinary criminals. Well, cept of course a guy with a sonic blaster threatening to use it on a person simply as leverage to get away with the cash is not as much of a threat as a serial killer who sneaks into people's homes with a flick knife or something - but still, we have special sectors of prisons and restraints for them too.

[The Geek Vault]

I'm with Cap for the sake of the comic verse if the bill is passed then I think many super heroes would be ruined. If I really lived I'd be with Reed Richards. Anyone else feel like Iron man is being mean? He lied to his assistants. I will laugh so hard if there is a scene where spidey asks iron man how a bill becomes a law and that song from school how rock goes on "I'm just a bill"

[3dman27]

Anyone else feel like Iron man is being mean? He lied to his assistants. I will laugh so hard if there is a scene where spidey asks iron man how a bill becomes a law and that song from school how rock goes on "I'm just a bill"
i'm starting to think tony's being possesed by the mandarin

[deathshead2]

i'm starting to think tony's being possesed by the mandarinIsn't he dead? Also I hope that rumor that an old bad guy isn't the one who started it.

[3dman27]

not that i'm aware of

[deathshead2]

not that i'm aware ofGood I want to see him in ironman. Wait I think marvel team-up said he was dead.:( Now im cofused.

[Chris Wallace]

1. Why does Iron Man support the Registration Act in Civil War & Illuminati, but oppose it in Amazing Spider-Man? Are these writers just not communicating w/each other?
2. How do you feel about the concept behind the story arc? Not the events unfolding, like killing off the New Warriors & Spidey's sidekick suit, but the idea itself?

[Red]

Better question: Do you have eyes http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218827

[chris moore]

Its been categorically stated that there is no villain behind all this - no puppeteer pulling the strings. Iron-Man is being himself, and himself has changed his position on things since he brought it all to Peter's attention.

[Chris Wallace]

Eyes, Yes. Patience, No. :p

[Anubis]

Oh, the Mandarin is dead. Though his son's still around.

[Chris Wallace]

Its been categorically stated that there is no villain behind all this - no puppeteer pulling the strings. Iron-Man is being himself, and himself has changed his position on things since he brought it all to Peter's attention.
But didn't "Illuminati" take place BEFORE he brought it to Peter's attention?

[Chris Wallace]

My stance is, I like the premise, but such a law should never come to pass.

[Chris Wallace]

They're not just proposing you register your identities though. You tell your identity to the government who supposedly will keep it confidential (like we believe that'll work) but they're also talking about requiring government training and making Superheroes accountable. That'll likely mean having to file paperwork and reports and such.

Even if your identity is already public there are a lot of reasons to be against this act.

Oh and btw. If they're making all superheroes register and become government sanctioned, does that mean they'd be getting a government paycheck? Or do they expect people like Spidey to go out patrolling all day long, fight a dozen villains that are out of his league every month and every b-list villain on earth, plus stop muggings, bank robberies etc and still maintain a steady job?
I dont think wage would really win most of the against-ers over but i was curious cause i dont think payment has been mentioned anywhere.Issue 1 made it pretty clear; they'd be getting paid.

[Chris Wallace]

This idea is starting to sound more and more ridiculous.
I can see it now.

"Oh Man. I tore my cape. Now i have to fill in my Z69 form, in triplicate."
:)
There'd be no capes; I imagine before long they'd be given government issue uniforms, like SHIELD.

[roach]

I have yet to see a bad part to this registration. At no time was it stated that they'd have to give up their identities to the government. Sure there have been complaints about the Government pointing them towards their enemies but we have yet to see what type of oversight the heroes would have. I think the first issue was a lot of overreaction. Everyone overreacted.

[Darthphere]

I have yet to see a bad part to this registration. At no time was it stated that they'd have to give up their identities to the government. Sure there have been complaints about the Government pointing them towards their enemies but we have yet to see what type of oversight the heroes would have. I think the first issue was a lot of overreaction. Everyone overreacted.


Ummm its all over issue #1. Spider-man's comments, Sue Storm's, Yellowjacket and Falcon's exchange.

[roach]

Ummm its all over issue #1. Spider-man's comments, Sue Storm's, Yellowjacket and Falcon's exchange.


Are their comments based on overreaction or knowledge of how a law that hasnt been voted on yet will work

[Darthphere]

Are their comments based on overreaction or knowledge of how a law that hasnt been voted on yet will work


Both. Im sure Reed brought them all their to share what the whole law was about, that was the point behind the meeting. So im sure that theyre not taking the whole giving up my identity thing out of thin air.

[Tropico]

I don't think the government would pay superheroes if they're registered. If anything, I think they would ask for money for the "license" and make them pay for an insurance. The government has enough problems with its budget to factor in another "institution" that they would have to fund and I don't know that tax payers would be continue to tolerate it as soon as they see how much money it's taking to pay for the damages, training, containment, etc.

Being a government "employee" would have to make you accountable in some way to your "boss". What would they consider part of the job? In what way could you be asked to use your powers? How would society change if the government has the super-scientists in the superhero community work as scientists and not heroes? Would this be a way to fund the superhero program? Would they be forced to make weapons for the "defense of their country" and then see those same weapons mis-used? The heroes would have to have some representation in the legislation so that it's fair to them; otherwise, the chances that the "norms" would railroad them are too high.

How many hours would the heroes be expected to "work"? What would be considered "hazard pay"? Would you have to get workman's comp if you're injured for a longer time than sick days you have available? What if you're "off-duty"; would you still be able to act? "Hey, Cap, Crossbones is robbing a bank and killing all the hostages." "Sorry, but I'm on vacation. You wouldn't want me to lose my job or get sued, right?":rolleyes:

How long before other countries adopt the same program and then start offering other benefits to attract super-powered beings? It'd become the next arms race. I think it would bring more problems than solutions.

[Chris Wallace]

I have yet to see a bad part to this registration. At no time was it stated that they'd have to give up their identities to the government. Sure there have been complaints about the Government pointing them towards their enemies but we have yet to see what type of oversight the heroes would have. I think the first issue was a lot of overreaction. Everyone overreacted.
Just what do you think "registration" means?

[RAMORE]

I don't think the government would pay superheroes if they're registered. If anything, I think they would ask for money for the "license" and make them pay for an insurance. The government has enough problems with its budget to factor in another "institution" that they would have to fund and I don't know that tax payers would be continue to tolerate it as soon as they see how much money it's taking to pay for the damages, training, containment, etc.

Being a government "employee" would have to make you accountable in some way to your "boss". What would they consider part of the job? In what way could you be asked to use your powers? How would society change if the government has the super-scientists in the superhero community work as scientists and not heroes? Would this be a way to fund the superhero program? Would they be forced to make weapons for the "defense of their country" and then see those same weapons mis-used? The heroes would have to have some representation in the legislation so that it's fair to them; otherwise, the chances that the "norms" would railroad them are too high.

How many hours would the heroes be expected to "work"? What would be considered "hazard pay"? Would you have to get workman's comp if you're injured for a longer time than sick days you have available? What if you're "off-duty"; would you still be able to act? "Hey, Cap, Crossbones is robbing a bank and killing all the hostages." "Sorry, but I'm on vacation. You wouldn't want me to lose my job or get sued, right?":rolleyes:

How long before other countries adopt the same program and then start offering other benefits to attract super-powered beings? It'd become the next arms race. I think it would bring more problems than solutions.


i think that's exactly why they are doing this (great post by the way) they want to see all the ramifications and questions and situations they can get the heros in and out of.

[roach]

Just what do you think "registration" means?


We are also dealing with people who have secret identities...did Peter have to reveal his identity when he joined the Avengers????

[TheCorpulent1]

Nope. The Avengers actually have a piece of equipment specifically used to determine someone's identity without actually revealing their name and stuff.

[Chris Wallace]

I figured they got it from the SHIELD files; After all, Steve Rogers approached Peter Parker about joining the Avengers, not Spider-Man.

[Chris Wallace]

We are also dealing with people who have secret identities...did Peter have to reveal his identity when he joined the Avengers????
You never answered the question, roach; what do you think "registration" means? When a black belt registers his hands as lethal weapons, do you think that means anything other than the police have a file on him w/his name, address & all his pertinent information? When you register a gun, isn't that creating just such a file? Why would the government go to the trouble of registering superpowered operatives & not create the exact same type of file? You can't make someone your agent & not prepare yourself in the event they go rogue or just plain disobey you.

[TheCorpulent1]

I figured they got it from the SHIELD files; After all, Steve Rogers approached Peter Parker about joining the Avengers, not Spider-Man.
Captain America already knew Spider-Man's identity, or he could've figured it out with very minimal research.

[Chris Wallace]

Very Minimal Research Into Shield's File; Nick Fury Knows Who He Is. How Do You Think He Found Out?

[Chris Wallace]

Nope. The Avengers actually have a piece of equipment specifically used to determine someone's identity without actually revealing their name and stuff.
An Avengers equivalent of Cerebro? I've never heard of this. When was it revealed? What book did you see it in?

[Darthphere]

An Avengers equivalent of Cerebro? I've never heard of this. When was it revealed? What book did you see it in?


Whats its bar code number, what color is it, does it make a humming noise?;)

[Chris Wallace]

If I Didn't Know Better, I'd Think You Didn't Believe In This Machine Either.
Wasn't There A Story In Which Cap Wanted Spidey To Tag Along On A Mission, But Spidey Was Denied A Passport B/c He Wouldn't Unmask Or Tell His Real Name Or Let Them Run His Prints?

[TheCorpulent1]

An Avengers equivalent of Cerebro? I've never heard of this. When was it revealed? What book did you see it in?
http://free.hostultra.com/%7Ejarvis/avengersscanner.jpg
Name: Avengers' Scanner

Created to identify any super human idenity weather they have a mask on or not. The scanner is able to confirm anyone who is in the Avengers or SHIELD database. Comes in real handy when trying to confirm someone is who they are saying they are.
Very Minimal Research Into Shield's File; Nick Fury Knows Who He Is. How Do You Think He Found Out? I wasn't referring to SHIELD's files. He helped Spider-Man out against Dr. Doom once and MJ was there. Afterwards, Spider-Man introduced MJ to Cap and Cap clearly got the message that MJ was Spider-Man's wife. Not very hard to go from there, considering Mary Jane Watson-Parker only has one husband.

[Chris Wallace]

Sounds to me like that only confirms that Hawkeye is Hawkeye or Balck Panther is Black panther, as opposed to Mystique or even Mephisto.
In fact I think I remember this. But it's not like they carry it around. It's kept at Avengers Tower.
I remember the Doom story, when Peter & MJ got back together, but I doubt that has anything to do w/how Cap found out who Spidey was. My mind goes to the Shield File, referenced in "Secret War" & MK "Spider-Man/Wolverine".
None of this has anything to do w/the fact that the government does, indeed, expect the heroes to surrender their secret identities.

[Assassin]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/GreenLantern2815/civilwar.jpg

[Chris Wallace]

what i didn't understand about the new warriors disaster is why in the hell speedball was calling the shots? nightthrasher's the leader and he's taking orders from speedball. my only complaint about civil war was that the new warriors were depicted way out of character. speedball being an ******* leader, nightthrasher complaining about how coldheart called him "bondage queen", microbe being overconfident and making sarcastic remarks about nightthrasher, and namorita being concerned about a zit on her chin.
How about the fact that the Warriors were such a no-rate team that they'd be reduced to a superpowered version of "Jackass", only to get killed? If they're that minor league, who cares who their leader is?

[Tropico]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Tropico/SBbanner.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Tropico/SBbanner1.jpg

[Chris Wallace]

Come to think of it, in their last series, didn't Dwayne refuse to come back b/c he was embarrassed by what they'd become?

[Vanguard07]

A whole lot of superheroes know who spiderman is. Cap could have found out relatively easilly even without his Shield authorization.

Just off the top of my head, individuals who know who Spiderman is include:
Daredevil
Wolverine
Dr Strange
Nick Fury
Human Torch
Reed Richards
Sue Richards
The Thing
Black Cat
Charles Xavier
Bishop (maybe not in continuity)
Madame Web

Luke Cage & Cap and the others involved in civil war had their minds wiped so i guess being on the same plane with him and finding out that way wouldnt count.

and that was before he joined the Avengers. Now All the current members of the avengers, Jarvis and a bunch of reserve members know too including Black Panther and Ms Marvel.

His identity isnt really all that secret these days anyway.

[Chris Wallace]

When did the FF find out & when did Bishop?
And your identity being known in the superhero community isn't the same as it being public knowledge. Is there a single do-gooder in the DCU who doesn't call Batman "Bruce" & Superman "Clark"?
And doesn't Cap remember the Secret War?

[Anubis]

The FF found out during Slott's Spider-Man/Human Torch mini, though Reed already knew. Pete, Dr. Strange, Luke Cage, and Reed had an intervention for Daredevil after he had declaired himself Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he knew before that.

[Kotagg]

You gotta figure Layla Miller knows who he is too. :D

[Venom Drool]

the public doesnt know, and most of his rogues dont either

[Anubis]

No, the public does know. Everybody knows Murdock is DD. Freakin Jigsaw came to him and tried to make a deal so he could do dirt on his turf. Stiltman came to him, and quit. not to DD, to Murdock. The public knows. Murdock just keeps denying it.

[Assassin]

whats with this he's in jail now and som eone else is in his costume b.s? i read it in wizard

[Anubis]

yeah. You gotta admit, it's a good idea to try and get him out of jail if he's in there for being Daredevil and DD's still running about Hell's Kitchen. Though Foggy didn't seem to think it was all that good an idea.

[Darthphere]

yeah. You gotta admit, it's a good idea to try and get him out of jail if he's in there for being Daredevil and DD's still running about Hell's Kitchen. Though Foggy didn't seem to think it was all that good an idea.


It seems to have backfired and not work in their favor. Most people think its an act. I really think the new DD is hawkeye, I dont nkow why.

[Anubis]

I wanna believe it, so thats good enough for me.

[Venom Drool]

No, the public does know. Everybody knows Murdock is DD. Freakin Jigsaw came to him and tried to make a deal so he could do dirt on his turf. Stiltman came to him, and quit. not to DD, to Murdock. The public knows. Murdock just keeps denying it.
talking about spidey :o

[Anubis]

Oh, then yeah, you're right. Except Osborne. And Gargan.

[Venom Drool]

DD is s till a mystery to me. indeed..hes being delusional..but everyone is doing a pretty good job at pretending he isnt DD

[Blayton]

Could someone tell me When did the Hulk destroy Vegas? I must have missed that somewhere.

[Anubis]

It was in a couple of issues of FF.

[Vanguard07]

When did the FF find out & when did Bishop?
And your identity being known in the superhero community isn't the same as it being public knowledge. Is there a single do-gooder in the DCU who doesn't call Batman "Bruce" & Superman "Clark"?
And doesn't Cap remember the Secret War?

Bishop found out in the X-men/Spiderman: Time's arrow trilogy of books. It wasnt in comics though which is why i said it probably wasnt in continuity. It was pretty cool though. They had some really cool character interaction.

Oh and also all of the characters who remember the other world from house of M would know since Spidey's identity was public knowledge in the House of M world. (Hell Peter Parker was one of the most famous people in the world just for being Spiderman)

[XwolverineX]

New DD Hawkeye would be = :eek::up:

[Chris Wallace]

Bishop found out in the X-men/Spiderman: Time's arrow trilogy of books. It wasnt in comics though which is why i said it probably wasnt in continuity. It was pretty cool though. They had some really cool character interaction.

Oh and also all of the characters who remember the other world from house of M would know since Spidey's identity was public knowledge in the House of M world. (Hell Peter Parker was one of the most famous people in the world just for being Spiderman)
Novels don't count, or Peter would have a sister.
And only the X-Men & Avengers remember House of M.

[LobokDaikon]

At the end of the trilogy, wasn't it finally revealed she wasn't Peter's sister?

[Chris Wallace]

There Was A Third Book?!?

[deemar325]

It seems to have backfired and not work in their favor. Most people think its an act. I really think the new DD is hawkeye, I dont nkow why.

I so think it's Hawkeye also.

That 'coin roll' thing he was doing in CW #1 convinced me. Yet knowing Marvel they'll change it cause most people have figured it out.

I'm still convinced Ronin was meant to be DD, and Marvel chickened out with that lame Echo.

[La The Darkman]

And only the X-Men & Avengers remember House of M.

I'm sure the members of the Illuminati know too. Strange was there and I'm sure IM and strange told Namor and Blackbolt as a means to explain Xavier missing.

[Dread]

I don't think the government would pay superheroes if they're registered. If anything, I think they would ask for money for the "license" and make them pay for an insurance. The government has enough problems with its budget to factor in another "institution" that they would have to fund and I don't know that tax payers would be continue to tolerate it as soon as they see how much money it's taking to pay for the damages, training, containment, etc.

Being a government "employee" would have to make you accountable in some way to your "boss". What would they consider part of the job? In what way could you be asked to use your powers? How would society change if the government has the super-scientists in the superhero community work as scientists and not heroes? Would this be a way to fund the superhero program? Would they be forced to make weapons for the "defense of their country" and then see those same weapons mis-used? The heroes would have to have some representation in the legislation so that it's fair to them; otherwise, the chances that the "norms" would railroad them are too high.

How many hours would the heroes be expected to "work"? What would be considered "hazard pay"? Would you have to get workman's comp if you're injured for a longer time than sick days you have available? What if you're "off-duty"; would you still be able to act? "Hey, Cap, Crossbones is robbing a bank and killing all the hostages." "Sorry, but I'm on vacation. You wouldn't want me to lose my job or get sued, right?":rolleyes:

How long before other countries adopt the same program and then start offering other benefits to attract super-powered beings? It'd become the next arms race. I think it would bring more problems than solutions.
Definately a great point. I still think mine regarding villians is rather valid to add to it.

As I stated before, there are also heroes who are already connected to the government, like Tigra (a cop) or USAgent (at least most times), and I wonder how they may handle it, or if we'll even see them. Tigra was at least a longtime Avenger. And wasn't Bishop made a cop during that DISTRICT X series, or was he just tagging along? I never read that series.

[Tropico]

Definately a great point. I still think mine regarding villians is rather valid to add to it.

As I stated before, there are also heroes who are already connected to the government, like Tigra (a cop) or USAgent (at least most times), and I wonder how they may handle it, or if we'll even see them. Tigra was at least a longtime Avenger. And wasn't Bishop made a cop during that DISTRICT X series, or was he just tagging along? I never read that series.

Last night I grabbed a bunch of random comics and one of them was X-Treme X-Men 46, their last issue. That's when it's revealed that they get the XSE sanction from the government. What I don't for sure is if they were somehow registered. I mean, just giving out badges to "Cannonball", "Nightcrawler" or "Storm" seems a little....dumb. I guess there's a chance that some if not all of the X-crew are registered.

[Darthphere]

Definately a great point. I still think mine regarding villians is rather valid to add to it.

As I stated before, there are also heroes who are already connected to the government, like Tigra (a cop) or USAgent (at least most times), and I wonder how they may handle it, or if we'll even see them. Tigra was at least a longtime Avenger. And wasn't Bishop made a cop during that DISTRICT X series, or was he just tagging along? I never read that series.


Bishop was sent by the government (XSE) to help control the mutant population crime rate or some sort.

[Ookami_Wolf1]

Just finished reading the Secret Wars LS (The Fury mission into Latveria one) and it seems as if the President and Commander Hill have been gunning for the Superhuman heroes since then.

[chris moore]

Yeah - I'd say that although no-one is pulling the strings in terms of paying Nitro to draw in the New Warriors, detonate in a public place and start the ball rolling on the whole shebang - since Secret War there has been considerable political maneuvering against superheroes in general. Someone (we dont know who) selects Hill to run SHIELD because she sings to their tune on superheroes in the world. Everything she does and says from there goes towards not using superheroes without them being one of hers. Only when the President himself tells her to call the Avengers does she do it. There's definitely someone out there who is nudging events along, but isnt influencing the heroes one way or the other.

[SpideyInATree]

The problem with IC is that it's got so much crazy crap all happening at once, with all these characters just thrown in your face. Marvel is much more realistic. DC is TOO fantasy.

IC is kinda similar to X-Men: The End in alot of ways.

It sounds to me like you just don't enjoy Infinite Crisis because you're not familiar with all the different DC characters like you seem to be with the Marvel characters.

Yes, Marvel's characters are more down to earth and more relatable on a personal basis. But that doesn't mean that DC's characters are gigantic borefests.

I'm sure if you had more knowledge of some of the characters, the different earths, and if you've read Crisis on Infinite Earths it would probably make it a much more enjoyable read for you.

I'm more of a Marvel guy, always have been, but I enjoy reading DC characters and their events. I may not know many characters like the Marvel universe but the whole point is to get people to know some of the lesser known characters, to maybe give them something new without treading on their classic creations like Superman and Batman.

Unfortunately, Marvel sucks at this. They try and stuff more X-Men down your throats. More Wolverine. More Spider-Man. Meanwhile Marvel has just as much of a universe that DC has, maybe even better, and they don't utilize it correctly.

It's why DC is kicking Marvel's ass right now and will continue to do so until Marvel turns some things around or has Dan Slott write all the Marvel books. :o

[Chris Wallace]

I Wouldn't Go That Far.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes, Marvel's characters are more down to earth and more relatable on a personal basis. But that doesn't mean that DC's characters are gigantic borefests.
I hate that argument. It hasn't been true for years. I've been able to relate more to Wally West than any Marvel character besides Spider-Man, myself.

[Zaptoitnow]

It's why DC is kicking Marvel's ass right now and will continue to do so until Marvel turns some things around or has Dan Slott write all the Marvel books. :o

I also wouldn't go quite that far, especially since it isn't true or anything...

The only way you can put a definitive judgement on something like that would be the numbers being sold, and Marvel almost without fail (one month out of the last 4 or five years) beats DC in the numbers, I'd have to say Marvel is still kicking ass.

[SpideyInATree]

I also wouldn't go quite that far, especially since it isn't true or anything...

The only way you can put a definitive judgement on something like that would be the numbers being sold, and Marvel almost without fail (one month out of the last 4 or five years) beats DC in the numbers, I'd have to say Marvel is still kicking ass.

While you are talking about sales numbers, I'm talking about quality of the story and how its being told.

Marvel's continuity is horrible. They don't seem to all be on the same page. While DC seems to be operating on all cylinders with all the creators knowing what is going on with who and what.

[Chris Wallace]

I'll Give You Continuity, Which Has Been Screwed For Awhile, Though Never As Badly As Now. 1 Book Has Iron Man Opposing The Registration Act, Another Has Him Supporting It. One Book Has Spidey Keeping The Sidekick Suit On Standby When He Was Already Wearing It In All The Others. And Where Does Wolverine Find The Time To Be In All The Books He's In?

[La The Darkman]

I'll Give You Continuity, Which Has Been Screwed For Awhile, Though Never As Badly As Now. 1 Book Has Iron Man Opposing The Registration Act, Another Has Him Supporting It.

I've seen alot of people mention this, and he was against the registration act because he KNEW people were gonna take sides, but IF the act was in place he was always gonna go along with it, he didn't start to actually agree with it till the first issue of Civil war.

And Where Does Wolverine Find The Time To Be In All The Books He's In?

They REALLY need to cut back on Wolverine period, atleast with his book it's taking place in different time periods, but how is he on multiple X teams, in Africa with Storm, AND on the new Avengers?

Marvel also needs to get out of NY more, why can't they place some heroes in Chicago, Mami, with the runaways killing the pride there should be more teams on the west coast too, that would solve alot of their problems I think too.

[supermarvelman]

Infinite crisis wasnt that great, when all things where said and done.

[Chris Wallace]

I've seen alot of people mention this, and he was against the registration act because he KNEW people were gonna take sides, but IF the act was in place he was always gonna go along with it, he didn't start to actually agree with it till the first issue of Civil war.



They REALLY need to cut back on Wolverine period, atleast with his book it's taking place in different time periods, but how is he on multiple X teams, in Africa with Storm, AND on the new Avengers?

Marvel also needs to get out of NY more, why can't they place some heroes in Chicago, Mami, with the runaways killing the pride there should be more teams on the west coast too, that would solve alot of their problems I think too.
Actually he supported it in "Illuminati".

[La The Darkman]

Actually he supported it in "Illuminati".

Supporting something and agreeing with it are two different things, IM never said he agreed with the act in "Illiminati" he simply stated that they should just come out in support of the act and lead by example before things get out of hand.

"We should cooperate now. BEFORE it gets ugly.BEFORE someone or EVERYONE is made and example of."

That's what Iron Man says in illuminait, he didn't start to actually agree with the premise behind the act until his run in with Damien's mom.

[Purple Man]

Blah blah blah Civil War blah blah blah

Read my sig

[Chris Wallace]

Supporting something and agreeing with it are two different things, IM never said he agreed with the act in "Illiminati" he simply stated that they should just come out in support of the act and lead by example before things get out of hand.

"We should cooperate now. BEFORE it gets ugly.BEFORE someone or EVERYONE is made and example of."

That's what Iron Man says in illuminait, he didn't start to actually agree with the premise behind the act until his run in with Damien's mom.
Okay. I'll buy that. But still, it seems contradictory that he'd be going to these congressional hearings trying to fight it & telling the heroes to get behind it.

[La The Darkman]

Okay. I'll buy that. But still, it seems contradictory that he'd be going to these congressional hearings trying to fight it & telling the heroes to get behind it.

Again I think it's a case of him trying to stop ALL of this before it got started. He did everything short of buying off elected officials to not let the law pass, but now that he KNOWS it's going to pass and there's nothing they can do to stop it, he feels it's best to just go along with it before things get MUCH worse than they already are and they start sending sentinals to police ALL superheroes.

[Kotagg]

Why does it seem contradictory?

It's a simple matter of sharing your ideas and opinions with the government you back and respect, and once they make the decision, whether for or against your opinions, you support it.

Tony simply considers himself a citizen of the United States, and while he uses his freedom of speech and idea, he also respects the decisions made by those whom are legally his superiors.

[bored]

If that's your argument, do keep in mind who his biggest opponent in this is.

[TheCorpulent1]

If that's your argument, do keep in mind who his biggest opponent in this is.
I guess the implication would be that Captain America believes he's better than the United States? :confused: I don't see it that way. I think that if Iron Man represents the average American who holds an opinion but will ultimately side with his country in things, Captain America sees the registration law as fundamentally wrong on the government's part and sees himself as the voice speaking up for the ideals of the US he remembers and believes can be reached again. Iron Man's the pragmatist to Cap's idealist.

[Kotagg]

You've pinned it.

Cap is playing the part of a man whom feels that the decisions made are so much an antithesis to the American way that he must buck against the system, and be the revolutionary.

While Tony may not entirely agree with the decision made, he feels that coexistance is more important than his own feelings on the matter, because the matter itself isn't fundamentally opposing America's values.

[Dread]

Bishop was sent by the government (XSE) to help control the mutant population crime rate or some sort.
Right, so Bishop and maybe a few other mutants are "connected" to the government. Gotcha. That may put them at odds with the rest of the X-Men, hence a while CIVIL WAR: X-MEN mini (other than, well, to add yet another X-book to the racks for a few months to replace some of the Decimation titles that have ended. It's not Marvel unless a dozen X-books are on the racks!).

I guess the implication would be that Captain America believes he's better than the United States? I don't see it that way. I think that if Iron Man represents the average American who holds an opinion but will ultimately side with his country in things, Captain America sees the registration law as fundamentally wrong on the government's part and sees himself as the voice speaking up for the ideals of the US he remembers and believes can be reached again. Iron Man's the pragmatist to Cap's idealist.
Good analysis. I hope that Marvel doesn't forget about the rest of the New Warriors down the line, and I don't mean in a bad way. Sadly, losing some of their founding members could give the team a new push towards being relivent, if they get a decent writer/artist team...for once this century.

Still hope Speedball isn't dead, if only because losing him would REALLY make Squirrel-Girl sad. :(

Even if Punisher seems ready to pick up some slack for the "on the run" heroes in WAR JOURNAL (once again having 2 Punisher ongoings on the racks, plus I think some one-shot or mini; note that Punisher crashed and burned during the 90's after overexposure), I still say the villians in the MU have to be loving this. I mean, Hill's "anti-super" squad can't be THAT good if Cap could outfight a bunch of them in a cramped space, no less. Cap's incredible but hardly powerful.

[Venom Drool]

Mind you, i think there was some hesitation as it is Cap...

[jaydawg]

I hate that argument. It hasn't been true for years. I've been able to relate more to Wally West than any Marvel character besides Spider-Man, myself.
Thats only one character, namely DC's everyman. Or at least it was. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

No, that's the one character I used to illustrate my point. DC's got plenty of relatable characters. People just cling to the idea that Marvel's the "characterization publisher" while DC's the "action/adventure publisher" because that's how it was when most of us were growing up. They've evened out pretty well now.

[iloveclones]

No, that's the one character I used to illustrate my point. DC's got plenty of relatable characters. People just cling to the idea that Marvel's the "characterization publisher" while DC's the "action/adventure publisher" because that's how it was when most of us were growing up. They've evened out pretty well now.

...just as people cling to the idea of Marvel being horrible about continuity.

Around the time JQ was made EIC, they admittedly abandoned continuity. The explanation that I've read from JQ was so they could "concentrate on the characters for a while without being bogged down with continuity." I think their plan was always for that to be temporary. You can debate whether that was a good or bad move, and whether or not it had the effect that they intended. But since around Disassembled, I've noticed an attempt on their part to tie things together a little better (which is ironic, considering how much many people disliked Disassembled. But I do believe it was a starting point for them.) Is it perfect? No, but I'm willing to bet I could go on the DC forums and hear coninuity complaints, probably just not as many. My point is: I think the temporary "moratorium" on continuity has been lifted at Marvel, and I see that all the times in the more quality titles like She-Hulk, Thing, MTU, Young Avengers, and sprinkled in other titles like NA, DD, Cap, and Wolverine. Just a guess on my part, though. but I hope I'm right, and we start to see more of it. But even if I'm right about all of that, and it does come to pass, Marvel will be stuck with the rep of "bad continuity" long after they fix it. Because that's just how life is.

[SpideyFan85]

Marvel also needs to get out of NY more, why can't they place some heroes in Chicago, Mami, with the runaways killing the pride there should be more teams on the west coast too, that would solve alot of their problems I think too. I think this will actually happen at the end of Civil War. In New Avengers, I think it was, Reed Richards was talking to Tony about this during one of the Illuminati meetings. He said that they needed to "spread the wealth" and move heroes to places like Chicago and LA. I can see the Avengers and the X-Men branching out. And then some assorted other heroes that would want to move away from NYC. I dunno, sounds good to me, New York seems like it's pretty full of heroes.:spidey:

[TheCorpulent1]

Marvel's New York is overflowing with heroes. It'd be great to see them branch out more.

[masteryoda]

It seems to have backfired and not work in their favor. Most people think its an act. I really think the new DD is hawkeye, I dont nkow why.
Because it would be cool. That's why. ;)

[CaptainStacy]

I'd love to see a Sub-Mariner or Stingray mini or ongoing based out of Miami Florida....

I grew up down there and all we ever had was the freaking Man-Thing and his crew.

And Curt Conners, every so often.

[Nasty-B]

What about Texas? 4 out of 10 of the US's biggest cities are there, but Marvel acts like it's nothing but sagebrush and biggoted bumpkins (there are plenty of both, but there's also some pretty serious urban settings). The last Marvel character to come to Texas was Ghost Rider. Even though Garth Ennis uses TX in lot of his stories, it was still all about the desolate landscape and the KKK, even though they haven't been active in Texas for decades (do some research Garth). Marvel seems to adhere to the New York attitude that everything in-between the East and West coasts is simply "fly-over country." Yeah, Marvel should spread the wealth, and I'm not sure if Great Lakes Avengers/X-Men should count.

[CaptainStacy]

What about Texas? 4 out of 10 of the US's biggest cities are there, but Marvel acts like it's nothing but sagebrush and biggoted bumpkins (there are plenty of both, but there's also some pretty serious urban settings). The last Marvel character to come to Texas was Ghost Rider. Even though Garth Ennis uses TX in lot of his stories, it was still all about the desolate landscape and the KKK, even though they haven't been active in Texas for decades (do some research Garth). Marvel seems to adhere to the New York attitude that everything in-between the East and West coasts is simply "fly-over country." Yeah, Marvel should spread the wealth, and I'm not sure if Great Lakes Avengers/X-Men should count.

What about The Texas Rangers?

Texas Twister
Shooting Star
Night Rider
Red Wolf
Firebird

They fought the Hulk, iirc.

[masteryoda]

You left out Chuck Norris. :mad:

[Nasty-B]

What about The Texas Rangers?

Texas Twister
Shooting Star
Night Rider
Red Wolf
Firebird

They fought the Hulk, iirc.

I hadn't heard of these guys before. Was it during PAD's original run, or before that?

Yeah, and I guess having Chuck Norris around kinda negates the need for superheroes in Texas. Hell, he could defend the whole world if he weren't so busy arbitrarily round-house kicking people in the face.

[jaydawg]

I'd love to see a Sub-Mariner or Stingray mini or ongoing based out of Miami Florida....

I grew up down there and all we ever had was the freaking Man-Thing and his crew.

And Curt Conners, every so often.
Namor rules about 75% of the planet. Seeing him in one particular area wouldnt feel right at all.

[CaptainStacy]

I hadn't heard of these guys before. Was it during PAD's original run, or before that?

Before. During the Mantlo/Buscema era....Incredible Hulk #265, iirc.

[CaptainStacy]

Namor rules about 75% of the planet. Seeing him in one particular area wouldnt feel right at all.

Why not? The Fantastic Four are based in one particular area, and yet they adventure all over the planet, Galaxy, and multi-verse.

I'm sure a capable writer could come up with an interesting scenario for Namor to hang around Miami for awhile. Maybe a love interest, or business venture...maybe investigating super-villain activity
based in that area....or maybe he just likes hot latin chicks in thong bikinis (and really; who DOESN'T?)...

Anyway; as far as actually RULING 75% of the planet, im sure Attuma, Krang, or Tyrak might have something to say about that.

[Vanguard07]

They could say something but they'd just get pimp-slapped for it. Namor rules the seas.

[CaptainStacy]

They could say something but they'd just get pimp-slapped for it. Namor rules the seas.

I dunno..i've only seen Namor and Tyrak fight once, but Tyrak mopped the (ocean) floor with him.

[jaydawg]

And Wolverine's probably gonna be doing that to him in August too.... sigh.....

[Spectre722]

if anybody's interested here are the civil war tie in issues for august...

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/Civil_War_4_edited.jpg

This is McNiven's EDITED cover to #4, apparantly the finished cover has a major spoiler on it. We also find out that Tigra and Wonderman (sportin some new duds) are pro-registration

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/CIVWARFL005cov_col.jpg

Civil War: Frontline #5

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/cwxn.jpg

X-Men: Civl War #2, great now the sentinels are full on manga, gundam, evangelion P.O.S. but according to the solicits, bishop goes against the rest of the X-Men, looks like he's pro-registration

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/ASM535_Cov_Col.jpg

Amazing Spider-Man #535, YES! I knew he wouldn't put up with this **** for long!

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/FF540_cov.jpg

Fantastic Four #540, according to the solicits, the FF break up here, and one of them gives up heroing all together. Looks like its Ben!

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/HFHIRE001_flcov.jpg

Heroes for Hire #1, so they hunt the rogue heroes. I can't see why Black Cat would be proregistration, unless the government offered her clemency?

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/newaven_renamed_13519.jpg

New Avengers #23, this one focuses on, you guessed it, Spiderwoman! Because we haven't seen enough of her over the last year and a half!

[Darthphere]

Ok, those Sentinels are disgusting. And Id bet money that Spider-Man cover is a ruse and he doesnt actually fight tony.

[Spectre722]

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/tbolts.jpg

Thunderbolts #105, the Tbolts are huntin heroes as well, and Zemo versus Cap! sweet!

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/CABDPL031_col_02.jpg

Cable/Deadpool #31, Deadpool vs. the rogue heroes. This gives us a better idea of the rogues, Cap, Cage, The Young Avengers, Dagger, Hercules, Daredevil, and Falcon

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Aug06/preview/wolv.jpg
Wolverine #45, Come on! Just try and tell me you don't want to see this!

[Darthphere]

Come on! Just try and tell me you don't want to see this!


I dont want to see this.:o

[Spectre722]

touche

[Darthphere]

Honestly, underwater, or on land, Namor takes this.

[Spectre722]

yup, we all know that but it's not like logan will go down like a *****. he'll give him a fight.

[deemar325]

That new Heroes for Hire looks lame as hell.

And the art is sub standard.

[Kotagg]

I don't know about sub-standard. Maybe sub-optimal?

[Anubis]

Shang Chi looks stupid in that pic. He can't get an updated costume like everybody else?

[Darthphere]

The whole H4H book looks stupid, and that art seems like it will take some getting used to.

[Anubis]

Looks like something you'd find as box art on a Nintendo game from the 80's. Of course, it's just a cover. Doesn't mean it's what it looks like on the inside. But it doesn't make me wanna buy the book either.

[deemar325]

Looks like something you'd find as box art on a Nintendo game from the 80's. Of course, it's just a cover. Doesn't mean it's what it looks like on the inside. But it doesn't make me wanna buy the book either.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Whoever the artist is he's stuck in the 80's.

It's god awful looking art and do we need a new Tarantula? It's like how many 'Spider types' does Marvel need?

This whole H4H thing stinks of Joe Q trying to push his buddies into the big time.

[Darthphere]

The cover artists is doing the interiors as well last time I checked, but yeah, H4h seems dumb.

[deemar325]

I don't know about sub-standard. Maybe sub-optimal?

Sub-standard, I mean just look at it. It's like some old artist from 1981 is trying to make a comeback.

[deemar325]

The cover artists is doing the interiors as well last time I checked, but yeah, H4h seems dumb.

I like the Idea of a H4H book, but if it's without Luke and Danny what's the point?

Plus crappy art and Humbug isn't gonna intice to give it a try.

[Darthphere]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/HFHIRE001_flcov.jpg

[deemar325]

^ That says it all about this book.

[Anubis]

HAh

[deemar325]

Billy Tucci is the artist, the guy who draws 'Shi' a crappy comic in of it's self.

[stillanerd]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/HFHIRE001_flcov.jpg

:D

BTW, does anyone even wonder how Marvel can even call this book Heroes For Hire when Iron Fist and Luke Cage--the very guys who organized it in the first place--are not even part of the line-up? Oh well, at least the Black Cat (who I kind of figured would be pro-registration) is given something to do other than be the quintiscential "Spidey groupie"--but still Catwoman wanna be.

[jaydawg]

You know what I love about Black Cat? Everyone calls her a Catwoman wanna be, but every progression Selina Kyle has had, Felicia Hardy did it first.

[chris moore]

Least they made her boobs smaller than Misty's (not that the Dodson way of doing them had a single flaw mind you...). It might mean she gets taken more seriously and not made out to be a cheesecake boobgirl with claws

[Harlekin]

I liked that cover better when it was a sketch (H4H).

[chris moore]

I like the colour scheme - though those are probably the normal suits for everyone (only know BC's really), it does give them a very team look. S'why the Astonishing and old style (Mad and Kubert) era X-Men uniforms remain the best in my opinion

[The Geek Vault]

who's the guy on the left with the goggles?

[Nightwing]

who's the guy on the left with the goggles?

His name is Paladin.

[Ookami_Wolf1]

What about Texas? 4 out of 10 of the US's biggest cities are there, but Marvel acts like it's nothing but sagebrush and biggoted bumpkins (there are plenty of both, but there's also some pretty serious urban settings). The last Marvel character to come to Texas was Ghost Rider. Even though Garth Ennis uses TX in lot of his stories, it was still all about the desolate landscape and the KKK, even though they haven't been active in Texas for decades (do some research Garth). Marvel seems to adhere to the New York attitude that everything in-between the East and West coasts is simply "fly-over country." Yeah, Marvel should spread the wealth, and I'm not sure if Great Lakes Avengers/X-Men should count.

Forge (X-Men and X-Factor) lives in Dallas. The Thunderbolts were based in Colorado if that helps the middle of the U.S.'s cause!

[Darthphere]

Frontline #1 Lettered pages.

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/FrontLine/01/Front-Line-preview1.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/FrontLine/01/Front-Line-preview2.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/FrontLine/01/Front-Line-preview3.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/FrontLine/01/Front-Line-preview4.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/FrontLine/01/Front-Line-preview5.jpg

[Chris Wallace]

Why Would He Do That?

[Darthphere]

Why Would He Do That?


Do what?

[Chris Wallace]

Look At The Post Above Mine.^^^

[Darthphere]

Ok? I posted those pages. What is he doing?

[jaydawg]

Least they made her boobs smaller than Misty's (not that the Dodson way of doing them had a single flaw mind you...). It might mean she gets taken more seriously and not made out to be a cheesecake boobgirl with claws
One of the first things I noticed was that every female has a different breast size. That gets a big :up: in my book. Just because they're women in a comic, it doesnt mean they've got Jolie proportions.

[Chris Wallace]

Or Identical.

[Chris Wallace]

Ok? I posted those pages. What is he doing?
Why would he publicly reveal his identity?:spidey:

[Darthphere]

Why would he publicly reveal his identity?:spidey:


He's not. I can see how that coclusion might be drawn but hes not going to.

[Spectre722]

His name is Paladin.

No thats not Paladin. Thats Humbug, though Paladin is a member of the team.

[SpideyInATree]

I'm going to have to get the Frontline mini now. :up:

[Grim Goblin]

He's not. I can see how that coclusion might be drawn but hes not going to.

I agree. Now that the general public sees super-heroes as irresponsible ticking time-bombs on 2 legs, Spidey is going to have a heart-to-heart with the public to show them what kind of people they are under the masks.

[BrianWilly]

Joe Q is too deathly terrified of change to ever let Spidey reveal his identity.