Civil War: Whos side are you on?

[SpideyInATree]

The guy who assisted in the storyline where Gwen Stacy slept with Norman Osborn to only have twins, and yet Peter had no idea until many years later and his wife, Mary Jane, happened to know about this?

Um, I don't think he has a problem with change.

[Anubis]

That's what I was thinking.

[BrianWilly]

And where exactly are Sarah Stacey-Osborne and her brother now? Nowhere. Forgotten and ignored by both fans and writers. Nothing permanent changed, no harm no foul to the status quo. Plus, the whole ordeal was a bigass retcon anyway, which doesn't really mean change so much as it means shock and revelations.

Just read what Joey has been saying these last couple of weeks re: Spider-Man's marriage and the X-Men. The man is completely, 100% horrified about the notion of anything disrupting his precious, marketable status quo.

http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays48.html
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays49.html
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays50.html

At least he's not pussyfooting around and has a clear business and creative vision for his company, but it's obvious that this vision does not include long-term repercussions to his characters in any way that would affect their public image. Revealing Spider-Man's identity to the Marvel U public would definitely affect that image. And we only have to look to the clusterfck of retcons that occurred post-Morrison to see what Quesadilla thought about the long-term changes he brought to the X-Men.

[SpideyInATree]

I don't really get that at all from him. I get the complete opposite from him.

[BrianWilly]

Why? His big quote as of the last few months of Civil Wardom has been to put the genie back into the bottle. Not to release the genie, but to put it back. If that's not a clear indication of his vision, I don't know what is.

[Dread]

Why? His big quote as of the last few months of Civil Wardom has been to put the genie back into the bottle. Not to release the genie, but to put it back. If that's not a clear indication of his vision, I don't know what is.
Good point.

On the one hand, I'm glad about some things "returning to normal", the problem is that there can be a balence of old and new and everyone can be happy, but Joe Q doesn't seem interested in looking for it, because it may take too long, and may take imagination. Ever the American, he likes a quick fix.

And as soon as people realize that the universe is moving in no direction but spin-cycle, how long will it be before sales plummet? Hey, fans of ARCHIE comics know what to expect every month, and get it. Those comics sell terribly. And even THEY have added some new supporting cast members to the main title, something ASM has been afraid to do since, well, I guess since Mackie was around (sadly), which was before the Quesada era.

[The_Mystery]

Doesn't anybody have an idea about what "genie" Joey Q is talking about in regards to Civil War?

[Chris Wallace]

Not A Clue.

[Darthphere]

Probably Wanda.

[Chris Wallace]

Here's a thought; let's put it in the real world for a second. If the government could tell superheroes what to do, what would keep them from, say, sending all the heroes to Iraq?

[Darthphere]

Here's a thought; let's put it in the real world for a second. If the government could tell superheroes what to do, what would keep them from, say, sending all the heroes to Iraq?


Nothing. Thats Captain America's point.

[Chris Wallace]

So That's Your Take On "...start Telling Us Who The Supervillains Are"?

[TheCorpulent1]

Probably Wanda.
Maybe it's the Avengers in general. The big changes to the Avengers with Disassembled and NA did its trick--sales are high again. Maybe after all this Civil War business is done and everything's inevitably reverted back to the status quo, the New Avengers will resemble the old Avengers a bit more. There does seem to be an awful lot of art with Wonder Man, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and other big names from the Avengers' older configurations about, doesn't there?

[Darthphere]

So That's Your Take On "...start Telling Us Who The Supervillains Are"?


Pretty much.

[Chris Wallace]

Maybe it's the Avengers in general. The big changes to the Avengers with Disassembled and NA did its trick--sales are high again. Maybe after all this Civil War business is done and everything's inevitably reverted back to the status quo, the New Avengers will resemble the old Avengers a bit more. There does seem to be an awful lot of art with Wonder Man, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and other big names from the Avengers' older configurations about, doesn't there?
Good point. And I can't see Spider-Man or Woman sticking around after this.

[roach]

Here's a thought; let's put it in the real world for a second. If the government could tell superheroes what to do, what would keep them from, say, sending all the heroes to Iraq?


Like they did when they sent him against the Axis in WW2

[Chris Wallace]

That's Different; He Signed On For That. And He Wanted To Go Into The Military. Spider-Man, Et Al. Didn't.

[blah]

most super heroes volunteer their services, shouldn't that give them a little more respect? They don't have to be registered, just informed and supported.

[blah]

That's Different; He Signed On For That. And He Wanted To Go Into The Military. Spider-Man, Et Al. Didn't.
That's what I loved about the Captain's origin.
He was substandard to military specifications, but he did the impossible to aid his country. Gotta respect that.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's Different; He Signed On For That. And He Wanted To Go Into The Military. Spider-Man, Et Al. Didn't.
WWII was also a much less politically ambivalent war. I'm sure there heroes out there who don't agree with the US' war in Iraq, just like there are many, many normal people out here in the real world who don't.

[blah]

Your avvis are the coolest Corp.

[Chris Wallace]

WWII was also a much less politically ambivalent war. I'm sure there heroes out there who don't agree with the US' war in Iraq, just like there are many, many normal people out here in the real world who don't.
Precisely. This is why I brought it up. It's one thing to not believe in a war, it's another to be told to go fight in it & you never once signed an enlistment contract.

[SpideyInATree]

Why? His big quote as of the last few months of Civil Wardom has been to put the genie back into the bottle. Not to release the genie, but to put it back. If that's not a clear indication of his vision, I don't know what is.

Yeah, I know that. Him and JMS are doing a miniseries in the winter or something.

But that means that he's afraid of change? I don't think he is, case in point, JMS' entire run on the Spider-Man comics.

I don't think he's afraid of change. I just think that they're attempting to make amends with the long time fans who are upset with the status of the Spider-Man regular universe titles. Unfortunately, he's going about it the completely wrong way. You want to fix Spider-Man...first thing is to not have JMS and Joe Quesada attached to it. That's the first start, heh.

[Chris Wallace]

Kinda Like When Howard Mackie & John Byrne Called Themselves Fixing Spider-Man. All You Have To Do Is Take Him Back To The Basics & Strip Away All The Crap, Not Add More & More Until He's So Far Removed That He Becomes A Shell Of The Character We All Love.
And Aren't You The One Who Was Defending The Recent Changes In Spider-Man?

[SpideyInATree]

Kinda Like When Howard Mackie & John Byrne Called Themselves Fixing Spider-Man. All You Have To Do Is Take Him Back To The Basics & Strip Away All The Crap, Not Add More & More Until He's So Far Removed That He Becomes A Shell Of The Character We All Love.
And Aren't You The One Who Was Defending The Recent Changes In Spider-Man?

I'm not defending recent changes or events. However, I've gone on record as enjoying some of the changes and events. Like JMS introducing the totem aspect to the Spider mythos. I really liked it and thought Book of Ezekiel was a good ending. Though they bit off far more than they could chew by going deeper during The Other.

I enjoy that Spidey is on the New Avengers. I like the new costume for what it is. Do I agree with everything about the costume? No. But it could be a heck of a lot worse.

The only thing I've defended are other posters on these boards who have to take abuse from others because they don't agree with them.

[Chris Wallace]

I'm not defending recent changes or events. However, I've gone on record as enjoying some of the changes and events. Like JMS introducing the totem aspect to the Spider mythos. I really liked it and thought Book of Ezekiel was a good ending. Though they bit off far more than they could chew by going deeper during The Other.


Now this I agree with. The best thing about the whole totem angle was that you didn't necessarily have to accept it; what happened to Ezekiel could have related to what happened to Peter & it could not have. You decided. And it was a fun read; The Other, overall, was not.
I've already stated my thoughts on why the sidekick suit-& the events leading up to it-was a BAD idea.:spidey:

[bulldog2002]

Im on wolverine and spiderman side also.

[thor87]

Well, which side is right, that is the question you must ask. The liberals must be very confused by this issue, they are all for government controll of big buisness, guns, and wellfare, but im sure some will talk about the civil liberties violations. Im fairly conservative, so i say the registration act is a piece of ****, more government controll is the last thing we need. Wheres Reagan when we need him. Well i just hope the government doesnt win, whatever happened to small government that didnt controll every aspect of our lives, we dont need the government to help us with every god damn thing, everything they give us takes a little more controll out of our own lives. I think Iron-Man will win, but i hope to God he bleeds for it.

[Fantastic Fan22]

Now this I agree with. The best thing about the whole totem angle was that you didn't necessarily have to accept it; what happened to Ezekiel could have related to what happened to Peter & it could not have. You decided. And it was a fun read; The Other, overall, was not.
I've already stated my thoughts on why the sidekick suit-& the events leading up to it-was a BAD idea.:spidey:


I liked the end result of the other, being a greater depth to spidey's powers (except the stingers). But the story itself....not so great

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

A question to those of you that have been keeping up with this series and the lead ups. Is it any good?

[Darthphere]

A question to those of you that have been keeping up with this series and the lead ups. Is it any good?


Yes.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Yes.

So it's worth reading/getting then?

Scael of 1-10 or compared to other mini-series you've read?

[Darthphere]

So it's worth reading/getting then?

Scael of 1-10 or compared to other mini-series you've read?


A solid 8.

[BrianWilly]

If we're including the lead-ups, I'd give it about a 7.5...some of them were a bit weaker.

[Zaptoitnow]

The Spidey Lead-in seemed forced to quickly. JMS just seems like he's running out of decent Spidey Stories. I'd rather get some new talent on the book. Give a major title to someone like Slott and force him to play it a little straighter than Spidey/Torch, and I think you'd see some wonders.

[samurai black]

hey everybody, i'm new to the hype but have been following spidey for quite some time. "the other" in my opinion, was anything other than a good read. Marvel has taken one it's strongest solo characters (DD being #1) and turned him into a team's comedy relief. Spider-man is one of the "Big Boys" in the MU. Marvel did him and his fans a diservice by making him tony stark's "fan-boy". Civil War's focus should be on taking spidey back to the top of the MU as a great strategist and scientist(he did invent web-spinners in high school and besides rhino and scorpion, most of his rogues are evil genuises, you just can't jump into a fight with Norman Osbourn) as well as a gifted fighter. I won't be happy with civil war until spidey starts kicking tony in his iron ***.

[jim lee's bat]

I'm pro regisitration cuase in the end the stories that could come out at of it have the potential to be extremly interesting and itll give the Marvel Universe a unique status quo that will A. set it apart even more from the competition and B. add a breath of fresh air to the universe as a whole

[Chris Wallace]

Samuraiblack, get it right; He's Tony's SIDEKICK!

[Darthphere]

Samuraiblack, get it right; He's Tony's SIDEKICK!


No, hes Tony's *****.

[CaptainStacy]

No, hes Tony's *****.

Not for long.

[samurai black]

Do you think Tony will pull "brain seizure" similar to what he did to black widow in the ultimates, considering he did design pete's armor

[Chris Wallace]

Nah-if anything he'll do what he did to War Machine & shut the suit down.

[samurai black]

i hope that they somehow write in a way for spidey's old costume to be bit more resilent this time.

[Chris Wallace]

Whattya mean? He doesn't need the suit for protection. That's what spider-sense & spider reflexes are for. And when the suit gets ripped up, it just shows his vulnerable side, thus humanizing him-which is what we always liked. Don't turn his old tights into a supersuit. That would put it right back where we are now.

[samurai black]

[quote=Chris Wallace]Whattya mean? He doesn't need the suit for protection. That's what spider-sense & spider reflexes are for.

except for when he stands there and tries to catch bullets, or get shot in the back at point blank range.

[SpideyInATree]

Marvel has taken one it's strongest solo characters (DD being #1) and turned him into a team's comedy relief. Spider-man is one of the "Big Boys" in the MU.

I don't understand this sometimes. I've seen other people say things along these lines. That Spider-Man is one of the big boys in the Marvel Universe.

Well, he's one of the big boys when it comes to being the most popular hero AMONG FANS!

When it comes to powers, ability, and skill...he's up there, no doubt. But there are a TON of heroes in the MU way more powerful than Spidey. While Spidey is my favorite character...I still can understand that Spider-Man is a street level hero, much like Daredevil and Moon Knight.

Spidey can take it and run with the big boys but I wouldn't say he's one of them.

Spidey has taken down some pretty big time bad guys, but it doesn't mean he's one of the most powerful in the MU simply because he's the most popular. :o

[Chris Wallace]

[quote=Chris Wallace]Whattya mean? He doesn't need the suit for protection. That's what spider-sense & spider reflexes are for.

except for when he stands there and tries to catch bullets, or get shot in the back at point blank range.
Both of which are tied to "The Other", & should never be brought up again.:down

[Chris Wallace]

I don't understand this sometimes. I've seen other people say things along these lines. That Spider-Man is one of the big boys in the Marvel Universe.

Well, he's one of the big boys when it comes to being the most popular hero AMONG FANS!

When it comes to powers, ability, and skill...he's up there, no doubt. But there are a TON of heroes in the MU way more powerful than Spidey. While Spidey is my favorite character...I still can understand that Spider-Man is a street level hero, much like Daredevil and Moon Knight.

Spidey can take it and run with the big boys but I wouldn't say he's one of them.

Spidey has taken down some pretty big time bad guys, but it doesn't mean he's one of the most powerful in the MU simply because he's the most popular. :oThat wasn't what he meant. Not strongest in terms of muscle-or at least that's not how I took it-but he's their flagship character. Their # 1 guy & they're treating him like # 2.

[samurai black]

"Big Boys" as in not some new up and coming sperhero with little experience. Spidey may tackle the occasional street thug, but most of his opponents (doc ock, norman osbourne/green goblin,venom,carnage) are very much non street level, but yet he needs little or no help from other heroes. Luke Cage is a street level hero, Spider-Man once ad cosmic powers. Only in the hands of an incompetent writer is he a street level superhero. and speaking of spidey's rogues, what's norman osbourne's role in civil war?

[SpideyInATree]

That wasn't what he meant. Not strongest in terms of muscle-or at least that's not how I took it-but he's their flagship character. Their # 1 guy & they're treating him like # 2.


'Tis not the way I took it, obviously.

Personally, I don't think they're treating Spider-Man like he's # 2. I think the problem is that they are doing too many new and different things with him that it's all taking away from who and what he is as a character.

It's one thing to make him part of the Avengers, which I love actually. But when you're doing that. Giving him organic webshooters, totally spitting in Stan Lee and Steve Ditkos face. New powers. New suit. Adding more to his origin. His first true love had sex with his arch nemesis and she had kids. They are twins with accelerated aging due to Norman's goblin formula. And if you ever read the Essential Spider-Man volume that deals with those stories leading up to Gwen's death you'll see there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HELL THAT SHE COULD HAVE NAILED THE GUY! IT WASN'T POSSIBLE!! Anyway...

I dig change and some of it has been interesting, and sometimes a little fun. But should a lot of this stuff stick? No.

You want to change up the characters abilities? Give him a new arsenal of weapons. Have Pete design new webshooters. Oh my, but that would mean reminding people that a Clone Saga existed and that Ben Reilly invented web-stingers and impact webbing. God forbid.

I understand what he meant now. But I still disagree. I don't think they are treating him like # 2. They are just doing too much at one freakin' time and if Peter Parker weren't a ficitional character, but a real life person, I'm pretty sure he'd move to Antarctica to get the hell away from all this madness. :o

Hopefully after Civil War things will calm down for a little while. With Jeph Loeb on his way to an ongoing Spidey title I see bright things in the future.

[Kotagg]

I don't understand the consistent *****ing about how Spiderman is Stark's sidekick. You guys are thinking too much from a comic-book reader perspective, and not enough from a human one.

He is Peter Parker. He was asked to assist Stark in his business and with the Avengers, and as a person who LIKES a steady job with I'm assuming ludicrous pay and benefits, he chose to go with it. He believed in what Tony was doing, and thus joined him.

Now, as for him being a "sidekick," what do you expect? That Tony would say "Well Peter, you're more famous than me to the readers, so you can be in charge of my company and I'll be your assistant."

Think realism, folks. There's nothing wrong with the situation as it pertains to the fact that everyone there is human. Stop fanboygasming and think logically for just a little bit.

And if you can't? Just realize that it's obviously not permanent. ;)

[Darthphere]

I don't understand the consistent *****ing about how Spiderman is Stark's sidekick. You guys are thinking too much from a comic-book reader perspective, and not enough from a human one.



Yeah you lost me there considering these are ficitonal characters.:confused:

[Chris Wallace]

Same Here.
There Are Too Many Things Wrong W/that Post To Mention.

[BrianWilly]

It's an interesting new exploration of both characters, but the amount of kowtowing that Peter does towards Stark nowadays is beginning to be nauseating.

It doesn't even quite work from the human perspective. Spider-Man has been a hero for longer than Stark has and has done just as amazing things as Iron Man, if not more. Peter should respect Tony as a man and and hero and scientist, but also as a peer and not as some sort of godly father figure. It just smacks of Marvel's annoying editorial obsession to paint Peter as the young, inexperienced n00b instead of the recognized, veteran hero that he should be.

[samurai black]

What other avengers answer Tony with "Yes Boss"? Even Jarvis is a more respected employee.

[twylight]

What other avengers answer Tony with "Yes Boss"? Even Jarvis is a more respected employee.

I figured he was just being his old sarcastic self.

[Kotagg]

Yeah you lost me there considering these are ficitonal characters.

And what is that supposed to mean, other than that you view all of these characters as just that - fictional characters, and nothing more? Sure, they're fake. Sure, they're invented other people and have no real effect on life. But following your logic to its conclusion, why not have them have six heads, and the only way to procreate in the Marvel universe be by exchanging Starburts candies?

The logic needed to actually place Spiderman as Tony's underling is logic based upon understanding of human nature, society, and even commercial heirarchy. If you can't comprehend what I mean by that, then I give up - you're obviously either not intelligent enough to understand it, or too embroiled in your fanboy hissyfit to see anything other than what you want.

If you view a character's INWORLD actions from purely an OUT OF WORLD mindset, you're always going to complain about everything: "Aw that sucks, why did they make Storm fall in love with Black Panther, his powers are nowhere near as strong as hers." Sure they aren't - but they LOVE eachother, INWORLD.

[Darthphere]

And what is that supposed to mean, other than that you view all of these characters as just that - fictional characters, and nothing more? Sure, they're fake. Sure, they're invented other people and have no real effect on life. But following your logic to its conclusion, why not have them have six heads, and the only way to procreate in the Marvel universe be by exchanging Starburts candies?

The logic needed to actually place Spiderman as Tony's underling is logic based upon understanding of human nature, society, and even commercial heirarchy. If you can't comprehend what I mean by that, then I give up - you're obviously either not intelligent enough to understand it, or too embroiled in your fanboy hissyfit to see anything other than what you want.

If you view a character's INWORLD actions from purely an OUT OF WORLD mindset, you're always going to complain about everything: "Aw that sucks, why did they make Storm fall in love with Black Panther, his powers are nowhere near as strong as hers." Sure they aren't - but they LOVE eachother, INWORLD.


No, before you go insulting my intelligence think of this. Youre telling us not to read comics from a comic reader perspective. Ummm thats what we are comic book readers. What other perspective do we look for? The fact that you think its ok for Peter to essentially be Tony's ***** from a real person perspective is till absurd, considering Spider-Man has been a hero longer than Tony and is a veteran. He doesnt need Tony, he can respect him but to pretty much do anything Tony tells him to do is absurd from any perspective you want to read this from. And yes, theyre ficitonal characters and it wouldnt be out of the ordianry for anyone to have 6 heads or arms in Spider-Man's case.

[Kotagg]

*sigh*

The fact that you think its ok for Peter to essentially be Tony's ***** from a real person perspective is till absurd, considering Spider-Man has been a hero longer than Tony and is a veteran

Peter Parker is a person. Not a super-hero - a person.

And Darthphere, I know you're not stupid. I think you fall under this category: or too embroiled in your fanboy hissyfit to see anything other than what you want ;)

[Darthphere]

Peter Parker is a person. Not a super-hero - a person.

And Darthphere, I know you're not stupid. I think you fall under this category: ;)


Seriously WTF? Peter parker is a person, wow, great observation, and has nothing to do with what were discussing. The fact that Peter Parker seems to see Tony as a father figure and pretty much becomes his personal assistant is dumb. Peter Parker doesnt need a father figure, he already had one, his name is Ben Parker. Peter Parker is a man, with a wife and a family to support. But he also has these powers that allow him to become Spider-Man so yes peter Parker is a person but also a superhero. Writers still find the need to write Peter as some dumb kid who cant do anything right and needs to have people to support him. It hasnt been the case for years. Fact is, peter doesnt need Tony Stark, because Peter, the person is an adult man who can take care of himself. But in any case JMS enjoys your support of his mediocre plot lines.

[Dread]

It's an interesting new exploration of both characters, but the amount of kowtowing that Peter does towards Stark nowadays is beginning to be nauseating.

It doesn't even quite work from the human perspective. Spider-Man has been a hero for longer than Stark has and has done just as amazing things as Iron Man, if not more. Peter should respect Tony as a man and and hero and scientist, but also as a peer and not as some sort of godly father figure. It just smacks of Marvel's annoying editorial obsession to paint Peter as the young, inexperienced n00b instead of the recognized, veteran hero that he should be.
I agree. A costume change isn't permanent (although if the costume were Red and Blue, HIS colors, which according to the demonstrations in ASM, Peter could easily do, or heck, make the suit look like his old costume), but I agree that Marvel's been attempting to paint Spider-Man as a "newb hero" for quite some time; coincidentally, since about when USM launched and started outselling all of his regular titles by at least 5 figures a month (which remained steady until CIVIL WAR related tie-ins and THE OTHER). That's about 5-6 years. Spider-Man's still "human" in many ways, but the problem is that while, yes, he is a wisecracker, and not the type who throws his weight around or so on, it seems that the more he interacts with other heroes, the more he submits to them. Look at some of his past adventures, even as recently as the 90's. He seemed to act more like a peer (with some respect, like for Cap), but at the same time he also was being "himself" (which tended to annoy a lot of heroes, hence part of why they'd rarely ask him to join).

Is there a way to make Spider-Man an Avenger, a labrat for Stark and so on without making him lose any connection to the common man nor omitting his experience? Sure, but no one at Marvel is interested. Hell, Spider-Man's been around longer than Luke Cage and Jessica Drew were, and would you think of those two acting as "newbish"? There's nothing to be lost if Spider-Man doesn't act like a sidekick, in fact, it makes things, and him, more interesting. Let's see him speak UP at planning meetings besides just offering a joke.

Batman has been around more than Wally West's Flash, and I'm sure if Wayne opened some branch of his company in Central City and decided to hire Flash/West, he'd accept. But there would be a very noticeable difference between the pair acting as peers, or acting as a hero/sidekick dynamic. I'm not going to pretend my eyes are lying to me.

It won't be premanent, I know. Joe Q's deathly afraid of doing anything permanent, for good or ill.

[Vanguard07]

It's always been really annoying to me how Spiderman tends to be treated by other heroes in the MU. They always tend to have that "get behind me, I'll handle this" attitude despite the fact that Spidey's probably just as formidable as they are if not more. Come on we're talking about a guy who's held his own, all by himself against practically every villain on earth.

The X-men
The Fantastic Four
The Avengers
The Sinister Six
The Silver Surfer
Firelord
The Hulk

While Still in his teens he fought all these guys by himself and usually either won or stalemated and yet in crossovers you used to have Captain America acting like he's more capable of bringing down the bad guys than Pete is.

Dont get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE the idea of Spidey as an Avenger. I think it should be great. But so far they're treating him as a wisecracking sidekick instead of the real asset he is. They need to stop writing Spiderman as a sidekick and show him some respect.

BTW you guys remember when they invited JJJ up to a meeting in the avengers tower? Cap and Iron man gave that whole "this guy's been through more than everyone in this room combined and he's as great a hero as any of us" speech? THAT was what I was talking about. Thats the kind of respect they need to maintain.

[Kotagg]

Bah. I'll take it as my own inability to communicate my opinion Darth, but you're not seeing what I'm saying here. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Chris Wallace]

The Point Is That He Shouldn't Be Acting Like Robin!
There's No Reason For This Established Veteran Hero To Subjugate Himself To A Guy Who Has Been-let's See, An Arms Dealer, A Political Pawn & A Stone Alcoholic! He's Better Than That. Regardless Of Whether He's Paying The Bills. Jameson Paid His Bills For Years & Pete Never Kissed His @$$!
These people have forgotten everything that made Spider-Man great, & why he's been so popular w/readers for the last 40 years!

[daveswb]

I haven't collected in sometime, but CIVIL WAR has started to suck me back in.

I don't like some of the changes that have happened in the marvel verse since I've been out, but the story still holds a great bit of interest for me.

To address the people talking about Spider-man's sidekick role. I agree. He's one of Marvel's oldest hero's yet they still paint him as a kid. He's even married and almost had a kid of his own. He's been through more heart ache and turmoil than any other character in the Marvel verse. You'd think he'd be the most mature by now.

But on the same token I think he'll be the character to keep an eye on during CIVIL WAR. Yes, he’s an avenger now, and yes he owes a lot to Mr. Stark, but he also has the most to lose by revealing his identity to the world.

Here are my questions about the events thus far.

Is it me, or did Stark push this to happen? I just read ASM 531 (missing 530) And it came off to me like Stark set up that whole thing.
Why did Stark hire that guy?

If the truth is reviled about that, how do you think Spidey will react?

Is it me or were the shield agents way to eager to go after Cap?

Why do the characters that do not have secret identities seem to not be sympathetic to those who do? Seems like the FF don’t care what might happen to the people like Spidey if his secret is revealed.

Do you think that the heroes that know the secret identities of the others will be forced to reveal them? And if so will they?

I haven’t read any Wolverine books in all this yet. Where is he?

[Chris Wallace]

Most Of Your Questions Have Been Covered In This Thread, However...
Tony Didn't Create The Registration Act. He Hired Titanium Man Supposedly To Prove What A Danger The Registration Act Presents.
We've Been Debating The Whole "I Don't Have A Secret Identity, So Why Should You?" Stance For A While.
I Don't See Any Heroes "outing" Any Others.

[daveswb]

Oh, sorry. That's what happens when you come into a massive thread that's been here for a while. ;)

I thik it would be an interesting twist. If you really don't have a secret identity and your so gung ho on the registration act. Why wouldn't you out a hero if asked by the government?

Think about it. Let's say you are Tony Stark or Reed Richards and Spider-man goes to the other side. You now feel he's being rouge. And the government passes this law, all you want to do is be a law abiding citizen. So they tell you to hunt him down and to give the government his info. What do you do?

Some would be tempted to "do the right thing" and give up the info.

I have another question the Hulk. Does the government know that he's Bruce Banner? I can never remeber if that's public knowledge. I know he's been taken out the picture for now, but he's an interesting case. He'd be the first one the government might want out of the picture.

[Chris Wallace]

They Know And He Is Out Of The Picture; They Sent Him Into Outer Space.
But To Rat Out A Fellow Superhero Is The Height Of Betrayal; I Think Their Intent Is For The Rebels (which Is What They Are, To All Intents & Purposes) To "see The Light" & Come Over Willingly. Selling Them Out Will Only Widen The Conflict.
Not That The Idea Is Without Merit.

[SpideyInATree]

Now, as for him being a "sidekick," what do you expect? That Tony would say "Well Peter, you're more famous than me to the readers, so you can be in charge of my company and I'll be your assistant."

Heh. I thought this was kind of funny and sort of true in the same breath.

While Kotagg may be putting his opinions in the wrong manner, I sort of agree with him on this subject.

I've touched on this before, Peter being Tony's "sidekick".

People are going to take things differently than others. While you look at Peter Parker being "Robin", as someone put it:rolleyes: , I look at Peter Parker working with someone that he can look up to. Peter, at heart, is a scientist and if Tony Stark is going to give him a job as his assisstant...he's gonna take it.

Has Peter called Tony "boss" a bit too much in Amazing Spidey? Yeah. A little overkill on it. But while you are looking at Peter being a "sidekick", which he's not, I'm looking at it like this: Pete is a sarcastic dude. Especially with the mask on. Now Tony knows he's Spider-Man so Pete is being relaxed around him. Calling him "boss" when refering to him. I look at it as Pete giving Tony a little jab about how he's his assisstant.

But people also need to remember that Pete is obviously going to change sides in Civil War. And how can you make the change dramatic if you're not going to develop a relationship between Peter and Tony? Could he call him "boss" a lot less? Yeah. But that's not Peters fault, it's JMS' fault. He's the one writing words into Petes mouth.

[samurai black]

i think there will be some selling out by pro-registration heroes, but it wil be in the form of attacking rebels in their homes or using their love ones against them. i.e. totally see tony interogating jessica jones on the whereabouts of the rebels.

[Chris Wallace]

Looking up to other heroes is fine; sucking up to them is something else. He doesn't get all ameteurish around Cap, Superman or Batman.

[SpideyInATree]

How's Peter Parker been amateurish? :confused: Because he's happy that Tony Stark gave him a job as his assisstant? That suddenly makes Spider-Man the official sidekick to Iron Man?

I haven't seen Spider-Man and Iron Man doing any major team ups.

Personally, I suggest people let Civil War come out first before they start pointing the finger that Peter Parker is a "sidekick" or "acting like an amateur".

[Dread]

It seems to me that if Iron Man is going to be a fairly permanent guest star of ASM (he's set to be guesting on ASM for a grand total of maybe half a year) for the time being, perhaps they should reflect it in solicts or the title, kind of like how DC used to do with Green Lantern/Green Arrow or Marvel used to do when they merged Power Man with Iron Fist (both in the 70's). I'm not opposed to another "buddy team" joining the ranks of Rand/Cage and Booster/Beetle, but let's be frank and honest about it.

Call it "The Shellhead and the Slinger" or something. :cool:

[samurai black]

But people also need to remember that Pete is obviously going to change sides in Civil War. And how can you make the change dramatic if you're not going to develop a relationship between Peter and Tony? Could he call him "boss" a lot less? Yeah. But that's not Peters fault, it's JMS' fault. He's the one writing words into Petes mouth.

I agree, but as a long time spidey fan, i hurts to see it, but it also builds up for a great point in the civil war storyline when pete finally does switch sides. (if written correctly)

[SpideyInATree]

I don't really see what hurts so much from Peter busting Stark's chops by calling him "boss" a lot.

[Dread]

To be fair, although the whole "Spider-Man acting like a rookie despite a good 10-11 years of Marvel Time experience" and being Iron Man's unofficial partner/sidekick, at least Marvel is taking the time (months) to prelude and prepare for CIVIL WAR. Whereas with HOM/Disassembled, Wanda was retconned into always being crazy (and never having "hex magic" because it doesn't exist) in the span of maybe 1-2 issues. While I have concerns about CW, it would be a lie to claim that despite it all, that its not working along better than Marvel's 2005 event.

ANNIHILATION may become a sleeper hit, though.

[samurai black]

I don't really see what hurts so much from Peter busting Stark's chops by calling him "boss" a lot.

Where was it implied that Pete was joking with everytime? Wasn't there a scene in civil war 1 where they were on national tv (with his wife, aunt, children he taught, and other friends looking on) and tony said "come along peter" and he replied "yes boss." Clearly that was overkill.

[SpideyInATree]

Does Stan Lee have to bust out of the comic book and tell people every little detail of how the story is supposed to go?

I'm merely taking it that Peter is busting Stark's chops by calling him "boss". Yes, its overkill but I don't see Peter Parker SERIOUSLY calling Stark "boss". Remember, one of the reasons Tony did this is also because Peter has a secret identity to protect...which becomes seriously compromised during the current Civil War story. Peter may also be calling him boss, in public, to keep up the illusion that Peter is his assisstant...and not Spider-Man.

How those government guys in "Mr. Parker goes to Washington" didn't figure out Peter was Spider-Man just boggled my mind.

[samurai black]

How those government guys in "Mr. Parker goes to Washington" didn't figure out Peter was Spider-Man just boggled my mind.

Yeah that kinda bugged me too. Isn't Tony's i.d. known by shield and other higher ups already? It seems someone would've leaked that info to congress.

[Flash Fearless]

I've lost track... Is Tony Stark's secret identity still public or has that been chagned?

[samurai black]

I don't follow his solo book, but from what i can gather his id is secret from the public, but that shield knows who he is

[Dread]

Tony Stark is pretty much in the same boat as Daredevil is; his identity was revealed to the general public, but he now is denying it. Whereas in the past, a superhero could easily come up with some stand-in or excuse and have a photo-op showing them standing beside their alter ago (like Spidey wearing DD's costume while Murdock is about), since 2000, this has no longer been an effective strategy (namely because no one's tried it since).

It is a wonder that no one's figured out that Peter Parker is Spider-Man given what happened in Washington, and the fact that May and MJ are living in Stark Tower alongside all the other New Avengers. It wouldn't take a genius to connect the dots for Spider-Man's secret identity. But on the other hand, Clark Kent's made due with glasses and a slicked back curl for 60+ years. He doesn't even wear gloves for chrissakes.

Considering that the "everyman hero" has become an Avenger, gained nanotech armor, a boost of new powers (this year and last), and sweet digs in a tower, and almost zero exposure to his civilian life outside of his wife and aunt, secret identities are the least of Spidey's problems.

[Vanguard07]

He's publicly claimed that he isnt iron man any more. The public, congress and most of shield still suspect that he's still iron man but they cant prove it.
Nick Fury knows for sure though but other than that I dont think Shield does.

[samurai black]

Considering that the "everyman hero" has become an Avenger, gained nanotech armor, a boost of new powers (this year and last), and sweet digs in a tower, and almost zero exposure to his civilian life outside of his wife and aunt, secret identities are the least of Spidey's problems.

Except for the fact that now congress is trying to pass legislation to give that id up.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Has it been clearly established which characters are involved and which ones have picked sides for sure?

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Okay so I answered my own question.

For the SHR Act

Confirmed:

* Iron Man - New Avengers: The Illuminati!--I can understand him
* Henry Pym - Civil War #1
* Mr. Fantastic - New Avengers: The Illuminati
* She-Hulk - She-Hulk # 8
* Ms. Marvel - Solicitations
* Wonder Man - solicitations
* Arachne - Solicitations

Unconfirmed, but Indicated:

* Bishop - Promo Art
* Colossus - Promo Art
* Goliath - Promo Art
* Sentry - Promo Art
* Thing - Civil War #1
* Tigra - Promo Art
* Nighthawk - Civil War #1 (this one makes no sense to me at all)
* Spider-Man -

Against the SHR Act

Confirmed:

* Captain America - Civil War #1 (I would think he would be for it)
* Black Bolt - New Avengers: The Illuminati
* Dr. Strange - New Avengers: The Illuminati (this makes sense)
* Namor - New Avengers: The Illuminati (as does this one)
* Luke Cage - New Avengers #22

Unconfirmed, but Indicated:

* Patriot - Civil War #1/ Promo Art (same as Cap)
* Falcon - Civil War #1
* Wasp - Civil War #1
* Cyclops - Promo Art
* Human Torch - Promo Art
* Wolverine - Promo Art ( of course he is against it)
* Daredevil - Civil War #1
* The Young Avengers - Solicitations
* Invisible Woman - Solicitations
* The Runaways - Solicitations

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I wonder if it came down to it which super heroes could the Government take down if they really wanted to?
I mean I doubt they would be able to take out Strange or Black Bolt, or Namor.

[samurai black]

The odds are in favor of SHR in terms of raw power, but i think that's where thor comes in to balance the odds. I think that Strange they would leave alone bc there odds of him being taken down are slim to none. Black bolt and namor don't reside in the US, so i would think the gov can't touch them.

[Brainiac 8]

That would be pretty bad for those for the act if Captain America and Cyclops (Arguably the two best leaders in the MU) worked for the same side.:eek: :up:

[samurai black]

Yeah, but it doesn't take much leadership to tell the sentry,thing, colossus,wonderman, and goliath to kick *** and take names

[Brainiac 8]

Yeah, but it doesn't take much leadership to tell the sentry,thing, colossus,wonderman, and goliath to kick *** and take names

No, but leadership tactics beat out brute strength everytime.

Personally, I want to know who would actually fight against Captain America. He is like the hero they all aspire to be.
You'd think they would all take his side, because it just seems his side would automatically seem right....oh well...:O

[samurai black]

No, but leadership tactics beat out brute strength everytime.

Given that, it's still pretty illogical to think that a team comprised mostly of the original avengers and the freakin US government is going to lose to a team of mostly street level heroes and inexperienced youths.

That's like if you had the best high school football team in america and gave them the best pro football coaches, they still wouldn't stand a chance against an average pro team with an average coaching staff. Talent goes a loooong way.

[samurai black]

Personally, I want to know who would actually fight against Captain America. He is like the hero they all aspire to be.
You'd think they would all take his side, because it just seems his side would automatically seem right....oh well...:O

It seems easy to do once you take him from being captain america symbol of freedom, to captain america symbol rebellion, which is what it looks like it's playing out to be. He no longer represents the people's views bc the public is mostly pro registration.

[Brainiac 8]

It seems easy to do once you take him from being captain america symbol of freedom, to captain america symbol rebellion, which is what it looks like it's playing out to be. He no longer represents the people's views bc the public is mostly pro registration.

True...true...good points.:up:

[Chris Wallace]

Does Stan Lee have to bust out of the comic book and tell people every little detail of how the story is supposed to go?

I'm merely taking it that Peter is busting Stark's chops by calling him "boss". Yes, its overkill but I don't see Peter Parker SERIOUSLY calling Stark "boss". Remember, one of the reasons Tony did this is also because Peter has a secret identity to protect...which becomes seriously compromised during the current Civil War story. Peter may also be calling him boss, in public, to keep up the illusion that Peter is his assisstant...and not Spider-Man.

How those government guys in "Mr. Parker goes to Washington" didn't figure out Peter was Spider-Man just boggled my mind.
Okay-first of all Stan is not involved in this storyline, so that doesn't make sense. Second, you keep defending the storyline & saying that Spidey isn't Iron Man's subordinate, but I don't see him telling anyone else on the team what to wear. Why didn't he ask anyone else to accompany him to Washington? WHY DID HE DUPE HIM WHEN THEY GOT THERE? See, that's the type of thing you do to someone who's beneath you; lie & manipulate. You know another thing you do? Exclude them from decisions that effect them. Why didn't he consult Peter, with his brilliant scientific mind, for input in designing his costume? Not just the look, but the functions. He's gotta wear the thing, he should know best what he needs & what he doesn't. For that matter, I don't recall Tony even asking Peter if he wanted a new suit in the first place. He just took it upon himself, & then "upgraded" it as he saw fit. He made Peter into HIS vision of Spider-Man, much the way Batman made Dick, Jason & Tim into HIS vision of Robin. Not once asking for their input, but telling them how it's gonna be.

[samurai black]

Okay-first of all Stan is not involved in this storyline, so that doesn't make sense. Second, you keep defending the storyline & saying that Spidey isn't Iron Man's subordinate, but I don't see him telling anyone else on the team what to wear. Why didn't he ask anyone else to accompany him to Washington? WHY DID HE DUPE HIM WHEN THEY GOT THERE? See, that's the type of thing you do to someone who's beneath you; lie & manipulate. You know another thing you do? Exclude them from decisions that effect them. Why didn't he consult Peter, with his brilliant scientific mind, for input in designing his costume? Not just the look, but the functions. He's gotta wear the thing, he should know best what he needs & what he doesn't. For that matter, I don't recall Tony even asking Peter if he wanted a new suit in the first place. He just took it upon himself, & then "upgraded" it as he saw fit. He made Peter into HIS vision of Spider-Man, much the way Batman made Dick, Jason & Tim into HIS vision of Robin. Not once asking for their input, but telling them how it's gonna be.

Yeah i think marvel wants to launch a new title. Peter Parker: The Amazing Science Project

[Chris Wallace]

Dude, it's the SPECTACULAR science project.

[samurai black]

LOL my bad

[Chris Wallace]

That's The Second Time I've Had To Correct You; If You're Gonna Bash, Bash Accurately. :)

[samurai black]

Samuraiblack, get it right; He's Tony's SIDEKICK!

oh, forgot about that.

[samurai black]

thanks boss

[Chris Wallace]

And to be fair, SpideyInATree, I know Peter's not REALLY Shell-head's sidekick. But he looks like it & acts like it. That's the whole problem here. If a young hero works very closely with an older hero, takes orders from him, AND wears the same colors-that's a sidekick. And being his assistant out of costume has nothing to do with what happens in costume.

[samurai black]

Just read New Avengers 19, i'm confused.....when in time does this story take place? in issue 18, no one mentions the registration act... then spidey is unmasked and hill starts boasting to cap about the SHRA about to become law. does this happen before/after civil war 1?

[Dread]

Just read New Avengers 19, i'm confused.....when in time does this story take place? in issue 18, no one mentions the registration act... then spidey is unmasked and hill starts boasting to cap about the SHRA about to become law. does this happen before/after civil war 1?
Note that NEW AVENGERS #19 shipped about a week late.

Secondly, I'm not sure of the placement but this NA storyline may tie into the PRELUDE TO CIVIL WAR stuff, where the SHRA was discussed in depth in ASM.

[samurai black]

So it's already known that pete is spiderman before the stamford incident? i think that should have been something they could've saved for the civil war mini

[MaskedManJRK]

So it's already known that pete is spiderman before the stamford incident? i think that should have been something they could've saved for the civil war mini

I don't think so, it seems like the biggest supporters of this (Iron Man and by association, Spider-Man) are really big hypocrites, and haven't revealed their names to the public yet. :o

[foxx5]

I'm on Wolverine's side and I cant wait to see what happens:)

[Kotagg]

I don't think so, it seems like the biggest supporters of this (Iron Man and by association, Spider-Man) are really big hypocrites, and haven't revealed their names to the public yet.

Err...isn't the superhuman registration act supposed to mean their identities are revealed to the government, not the general public?

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think so, it seems like the biggest supporters of this (Iron Man and by association, Spider-Man) are really big hypocrites, and haven't revealed their names to the public yet. :o
Spidey's not supporting it, Tony had him speaking against it. I don't know why there's such a contradiction in Tony's behavior, but there is.

[Chris Wallace]

Err...isn't the superhuman registration act supposed to mean their identities are revealed to the government, not the general public?
Yes.

[Darthphere]

I really hope Tony's drunk again because he doesnt make any sense.

[deathshead2]

I really hope Tony's drunk again because he doesnt make any sense.I hope so to after this big event I hope we find out the past few years were just like a dream he had while passed out at the mansion.

[Chris Wallace]

"Jarvis-I had the weirdest dream; Wanda went crazy, the Avengers disbanded, I made Spider-Man my lackey & gave him a ridiculous costume-and he WORE IT! Then the government passed a bill requiring all superhumans to register-and I went along with it!"

[SpideyInATree]

Okay-first of all Stan is not involved in this storyline, so that doesn't make sense. Second, you keep defending the storyline & saying that Spidey isn't Iron Man's subordinate, but I don't see him telling anyone else on the team what to wear. Why didn't he ask anyone else to accompany him to Washington? WHY DID HE DUPE HIM WHEN THEY GOT THERE? See, that's the type of thing you do to someone who's beneath you; lie & manipulate. You know another thing you do? Exclude them from decisions that effect them. Why didn't he consult Peter, with his brilliant scientific mind, for input in designing his costume? Not just the look, but the functions. He's gotta wear the thing, he should know best what he needs & what he doesn't. For that matter, I don't recall Tony even asking Peter if he wanted a new suit in the first place. He just took it upon himself, & then "upgraded" it as he saw fit. He made Peter into HIS vision of Spider-Man, much the way Batman made Dick, Jason & Tim into HIS vision of Robin. Not once asking for their input, but telling them how it's gonna be.

The Stan Lee thing was a joke, and meant to be sarcastic. My point in doing that was that Stan created Spidey, and does he need to pop out of every Marvel comic and explain to people EXACTLY EVERY TINY DETAIL OF PLOT SO THAT IT ALL MAKES SENSE?

I mean...look at your post you just made. You just basically made the case of why Spidey will probably turn on Tony Stark in Civil War.

You see why they are having Tony treat Peter like this? Tony wants the act to go through and needed Peter's help to do it. Who's the only one of the New Avengers that Tony could put that much trust into? Of course, Peter Parker. Pete's a good guy. Do I consider him acting a little bit like a lackey? Not really.

Don't take any offense here. But, especially on the Spidey boards, everyone complains about how Peter Parker gets written out of character. Personally, I don't think Peter Parker gets written out of character. Pete's character is one of a good heart. Peter isn't going to be close minded and cynical about everything... (like some people are). He's going to help out a colleague, and fellow teammate.

Your post proved what Marvel is trying to do with Peter Parker and how the plot will further in Civil War.

[Chris Wallace]

Yes-he's Of A Good Heart, But He's Also Smart. Smart & Cynical Are Not The Same Thing. Maybe Because He Likes To Believe The Avengers Are The Good Guys, He Doesn't Question What Tony Says. I'd Buy That. If That's Your Argument I'll Accept It.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I hope so to after this big event I hope we find out the past few years were just like a dream he had while passed out at the mansion.

Haha :up:

Of course you don't dream when you are that drunk :up:

[SpideyInATree]

Yes-he's Of A Good Heart, But He's Also Smart. Smart & Cynical Are Not The Same Thing. Maybe Because He Likes To Believe The Avengers Are The Good Guys, He Doesn't Question What Tony Says. I'd Buy That. If That's Your Argument I'll Accept It.

That's what I'm saying when he's got a good heart. He trusts his teammates. Christ...you're on a team with Captain F'n America, what's not to trust?

Peter is smart. But it doesn't mean that he's psychic.

[samurai black]

didn't tony tell him NOT to trust captain america. i believe it happens when tony gives him this new suit and he questions his motives, but after tony gives him a lame answer "big things ahead, can't tell you what, but just trust me, and oh yeah don't tell captain america." he's ok. He then questions him again about the attack in washington and accepts his answer. It will be pretty interesting to see what happens when tony gets upset with having his decisions questioned by his "lackey" and just tells him to follow orders.

[SpideyInATree]

How do you know that Peter just accepted his answer?

I have my boss tell me things that I don't agree with but I have to smile, nod, and take it...because he's the boss. Though in my mind I'm thinking twenty different ways where he can stick his requests.

We don't see Pete's thought bubbles anymore. :(

Once again. More fuel to the fire for when Peter says, "Hey, Tony, you suck". :)

[samurai black]

How do you know that Peter just accepted his answer?

I have my boss tell me things that I don't agree with but I have to smile, nod, and take it...because he's the boss. Though in my mind I'm thinking twenty different ways where he can stick his requests.

We don't see Pete's thought bubbles anymore. :(

Once again. More fuel to the fire for when Peter says, "Hey, Tony, you suck". :)

The scene on the rooftop where it was Tony, Pete, and MJ discussing the new suit and pete was curious why the sudden interest in him. Tony gave him a speech about "things going to get messy and having someone by his side.| I'm not sure of the question pete then asked but after tonys answer he said "That's all i need to hear." and shook his hand. But i do agree, Pete's not going to just be taking orders much longer and Marvels making sure that they make it a very dramatic moment and that we are clearly on pete's side.

[SpideyInATree]

But i do agree, Pete's not going to just be taking orders much longer and Marvels making sure that they make it a very dramatic moment and that we are clearly on pete's side.

Exactly. That's what my point has been. It's a story and sometimes people take things a little too far because they're invested emotionally into the character. Of course you don't want to see your favorite character being treated like he's lower than someone else.

But how is there supposed to be any kind of emotion in Civil War if Pete would have told Tony to stick the new suit up his ass? THAT is not in Peter Parker's character.

[samurai black]

Speaking of emotion in CW, I haven't really been keeping up with FF, but are they focusing in on the drama created with Reed being pro and sue being anti?

[MajinShenron]

Theres a difference from a side-kick and a partner. A side-kick is someone helping the hero, and the hero barely benefiting the side-kick except by making him look good or whatever. The hero is the like mentor for the side-kick, he teaches him. Lets look at Robin for example. Robin uses the same weapons, and has the same fighting style as Batman. Now, why? Well, its because he was taught by Batman.

Spiderman does wear a uniform Ironman gave him, but then again, why not? It was a lot more advanced then the cloth he put on. And was he forced to wear it? No. And why did Ironman escort him to Washington? Well, he trusted him the most. He could of asked anyone. Also Tony didn't tell him what to say, if you look Spiderman spoke his mind out freely. So, what can you say about Spiderman and Ironman's partnership? Well, if you say its more of a partnership then Spiderman and Luke Cage then I agree despite the fact they are both on the same team.They made a blood oath, not a side-kick oath. Spiderman is a independent and free speaker. I doubt he wants to be told what to do. Also, Spiderman is paying Tony back for the things he did to him and his family. Tony deserves it.

[SpideyInATree]

I'm glad someone else gets it, too. :up:

You also have to keep in mind that most hardcore Spidey fans are going to be upset. With the last year and a half the Spidey books haven't been great for a lot of those fans.

There is a lot of investment in the character of Peter Parker to a lot of people. They see Peter calling Tony "boss" they automatically go into a mode where they think that the writers and editors are making Peter less than Tony Stark. Therefore, making them use the word "sidekick" a whole lot.

But as a long time Spider-Man fan myself I can see the much larger picture. Yeah, I'm sure to a lot of Spidey fans if Peter told Stark to go suck an egg when he gave him the new suit or told Captain America to go run into oncoming traffic when he asked him to join the Avengers things might be different but Peter Parker has a good heart. And it seems while many long time Spidey fans go on and on about how the character is being trampled on. I think Spider-Man fans desperately want something good that they're willing to trample on the character of Peter Parker to get it. :O

[Ookami_Wolf1]

So it's already known that pete is spiderman before the stamford incident? i think that should have been something they could've saved for the civil war mini

While Spidey had been unmasked, I am not sure whether they identified him. Anyway, Hill seems to be going way over the line with her "hatred" of superhumans. Is she just annoyed as she doesn't have any powers of her own?

[Dread]

While Spidey had been unmasked, I am not sure whether they identified him. Anyway, Hill seems to be going way over the line with her "hatred" of superhumans. Is she just annoyed as she doesn't have any powers of her own?
Not really. The registration side is obviously the side that is being made to look worse, because CIVIL WAR is an allegory about losing civil liberties in the name of "being accountable". If Agent Hill came off as something other than a near-fascist, it would be harder to agree with Capt. America, now wouldn't it?

Its a trap that too many writers make; in presenting a reasonable moral dilemma, they make those who represent the side that the writer(s) secretly disagree with seem meaner, more unreasonable, more dislikable. The problem, of course, is that it means their agruement becomes more fuzzy if the anti-registration were ever to meet an agent who had some compassion, and seemed to be, well, the opposite of a complete douchebag. But they won't.

[Gilpesh]

I am against the registration act but for it passing. That would make for a whole bunch of interesting story-lines in the future.

[3dman27]

maybe director hill is anti mutant and considers all super beings mutants

[daveswb]

maybe director hill is anti mutant and considers all super beings mutants

That's a good posibility. If you only knew of mutants it's good to assume that's how the majority of them got thier powers.

I agree with the idea of the writers falling into the trap of wrtting the side they are against in a negative fashion. the truth is they are presenting the registration side in an all or nothing type fashion.

In reality I don't think the government would handle the issue that way. Not at first anyway. There would also be voices speaking on the behalf of the heroes needing to be kept secret. I mean the heroes them selves can write letters to their congress men defending the hereoes, this is a democrcy after all. And after debate the bill would get watered down.

The problem is when we begin nit pcking the details of the story it starts to make it less fun.

[demento]

Spidey's not supporting it, Tony had him speaking against it. I don't know why there's such a contradiction in Tony's behavior, but there is.
I think there are two things going on with Tony:

1) He's playing politics, something with which he has long experience, and hence the duplicity of his actions.

2) The effects of the Extremis virus are slowly driving him insane.

[Chris Wallace]

Possibly.
Shouldn't They Also Find It Odd That A Photographer-turned-schoolteacher Is Accompanying A Big-time Businessman/defense Contractor/former Secretary Of Defense To Washington To Discuss This Bill? It's Only Ver Recently I've Understood Why Peter Has Come Off So Stupid Lately; He's Out Of His Depth.

[3dman27]

I think there are two things going on with Tony:

1) He's playing politics, something with which he has long experience, and hence the duplicity of his actions.

2) The effects of the Extremis virus are slowly driving him insane.
either that or wanda's tampering with his mind during dissassembled had longer raching consequences than he realized

[Darthphere]

Damn, long wait for #2.

[demento]

Possibly.
Shouldn't They Also Find It Odd That A Photographer-turned-schoolteacher Is Accompanying A Big-time Businessman/defense Contractor/former Secretary Of Defense To Washington To Discuss This Bill? It's Only Ver Recently I've Understood Why Peter Has Come Off So Stupid Lately; He's Out Of His Depth.
He didn't bring Spidey with him to testify. When he chimed in at the hearing he was speaking out of order. Officially, he was there as Tony's bodyguard which was in fact just a ruse to use him in his Titanium Man assassination attempt charade.

But you're right, Spidey is completely out of his depth and I think he's finally starting to figure that out (see the latest issue of New Avengers).

[demento]

either that or wanda's tampering with his mind during dissassembled had longer raching consequences than he realized
I don't know about that. Those at the core of the House of M remember what happened and they're carrying that baggage around with them. But Tony's problem seems to be that he's lost his moral compass since being wired into everything via Extremis. Look at what he did to Crimson Dynamo and most recently, Graviton. He's losing his humanity with all that info constantly streaming right into his brain.

[GNR]

Damn, long wait for #2.

Another 2 weeks isn't bad.

[Chris Wallace]

He didn't bring Spidey with him to testify. When he chimed in at the hearing he was speaking out of order. Officially, he was there as Tony's bodyguard which was in fact just a ruse to use him in his Titanium Man assassination attempt charade.

But you're right, Spidey is completely out of his depth and I think he's finally starting to figure that out (see the latest issue of New Avengers).
More like unofficially, but your point is valid.

[demento]

More like unofficially, but your point is valid.
Isn't Spidey Tony's paid employee now?

[The Geek Vault]

I just got the new spider-man, I hope that Spidey doesn't reveal himself. It would make the character so cheap. I also hate that he's working with iron man, web heads a small time hero not a big superstar.

[Chris Wallace]

Isn't Spidey Tony's paid employee now?
Yeah, but you can't go around telling people that this 5'10", 165 lb., photographer/schoolteacher is your bodyguard.

[gildea]

Not really. The registration side is obviously the side that is being made to look worse, because CIVIL WAR is an allegory about losing civil liberties in the name of "being accountable". If Agent Hill came off as something other than a near-fascist, it would be harder to agree with Capt. America, now wouldn't it?

Its a trap that too many writers make; in presenting a reasonable moral dilemma, they make those who represent the side that the writer(s) secretly disagree with seem meaner, more unreasonable, more dislikable. The problem, of course, is that it means their agruement becomes more fuzzy if the anti-registration were ever to meet an agent who had some compassion, and seemed to be, well, the opposite of a complete douchebag. But they won't.


I can't really see how shield have so far been meaner or unreasonable. I can't think of anything they've done that made them look bad. Especially given almost all the classic heroes are siding with the.

Of course I agee with them so we interpret as we may.

[demento]

Yeah, but you can't go around telling people that this 5'10", 165 lb., photographer/schoolteacher is your bodyguard.
To the public, he's still Spider-Man, not Peter Parker. Outside of his circle, only the Avengers and SHIELD know otherwise.

[Chris Wallace]

Huh? You're Pro-registration?

[Dread]

I can't really see how shield have so far been meaner or unreasonable. I can't think of anything they've done that made them look bad. Especially given almost all the classic heroes are siding with the.

Of course I agee with them so we interpret as we may.
So you believe that Agent Hill, at least as far as NA #19 and CW #1, isn't being arrogant, aggressive, pushy, authoritarian, and downright unlikeable? Imagine if a government agent over at DC captured Batman and "mind-raped" information out of him, tossing off his mask to boot. Would anyone find it justified? Heck, IDENTITY CRISIS built a whole story about the regrets some heroes had from "mindaltering" people. SHIELD people do it every day, with no remourse.

My point was that Marvel seems to be solicting this as being a "dilemma", and while it is a moral dilemma, it seems obviously that you're not meant to be rooting for Agent Hill. She's acting pretty typical of a generic unlikeable government head. Movies are full of them.

There could be a moderate side for registration -- take Tigra, who last I checked was not only an ex-Avenger, but technically an actual police officer. I doubt she'll show up. In fact, I doubt we'll see any sort of government agent who is remotely the opposite of an arrogant, holier-than-thou douchebag. You're not supposed to like them.

In theory, CIVIL WAR could be said to be questioning a staple of the superhero genre, and that is that they are "vigilantes" not under the employ and control of a government force, because they are independant to be more relatable with readers and to fit into the genre. In practice, however, its an allegory that is timely in the age of "America is Evil because Bush is President" sort of mantra. Marvel historically has always relied on current real world and political trends to make stories "hot" and realistic, which works wonders for the present...but only serves to date them badly. Note in the past how reliant on WW2 and the Cold War Marvel used to be; they even had a villian in the 70's who was, literally, an alternate-dimensional version of Gerald Ford. The 80's were full of knee-jerk anti-Reaganism. Those stories all were great for their time, but read them later on and it only reminds you of how old they are; even Ultimate issues from 5 years ago are having that dilemma. In a way its a shame Marvel's not playing longball with CW, because it could really stand up as something for the genre. Like a "reexamining".

[Chris Wallace]

To the public, he's still Spider-Man, not Peter Parker. Outside of his circle, only the Avengers and SHIELD know otherwise.
Okay-but who was Tony seen with? I get that Spidey, being an Avenger, could be assigned to protect their bankroll. But Peter was still the main person seen with him.
And I don't know if I'd ask Spider-Man to be my bodyguard when Luke Cage was available.

[demento]

Huh? You're Pro-registration?
Uh, no. The point is that Tony brought Spider-Man to DC as his bodyguard, not Peter Parker. Tony is obviously going to be on the pro-registration side of Civil War but I've seen nothing yet that says he's going to 'out' those whose secret identities he knows. Thus far, he's only offered to hunt Cap down.

[demento]

Okay-but who was Tony seen with? I get that Spidey, being an Avenger, could be assigned to protect their bankroll. But Peter was still the main person seen with him.
And I don't know if I'd ask Spider-Man to be my bodyguard when Luke Cage was available.

1) Their being seen walking down the street together doesn't blow Peter's identity.

2) Spider-Man is Tony's personal bodyguard/employee. It has nothing to do with the Avengers.

3) Tony has a long-standing relationship with Peter. It has an almost father/son dynamic to it. Tony is pretty much exploiting that. You can't say the same for Luke Cage or anyone else.

[gildea]

So you believe that Agent Hill, at least as far as NA #19 and CW #1, isn't being arrogant, aggressive, pushy, authoritarian, and downright unlikeable? Imagine if a government agent over at DC captured Batman and "mind-raped" information out of him, tossing off his mask to boot. Would anyone find it justified? Heck, IDENTITY CRISIS built a whole story about the regrets some heroes had from "mindaltering" people. SHIELD people do it every day, with no remourse.

You ever watch 24? I see jack bauer do far worse and he's the hero in that. I think she is unlikeable and pushy but nothing else you've mentioned. She had a telepath read someones mind that is all, happens all the time in x-men. It was perfectly justifiable too and completely non invasive and left no damage. IC built a whole story about mind altering not mind reading, irrelevant analogy. To be fair though I would have sided with hawkman then also.
As long as the actions are justifiable the characters nature is practically irrelevant. She doesn't like superheroes fair enough but so far she's been very professional about it from the point of view of her mission.

My point was that Marvel seems to be solicting this as being a "dilemma", and while it is a moral dilemma, it seems obviously that you're not meant to be rooting for Agent Hill. She's acting pretty typical of a generic unlikeable government head. Movies are full of them.

Thats one characer. Agent hill isn't responsible for the act's existance, merely for enforcing it. She is not the figure head for the act in the story, thats tony. And so far she's done nothing wrong (by wrong i mean something unjustifiable).

There could be a moderate side for registration -- take Tigra, who last I checked was not only an ex-Avenger, but technically an actual police officer. I doubt she'll show up. In fact, I doubt we'll see any sort of government agent who is remotely the opposite of an arrogant, holier-than-thou douchebag. You're not supposed to like them.

Them? There is only one person so far in CW that has been anywhere near dislikable. Deadpool is going to be working for the government (i think) hardly holier than thou. And as pointed out most of the classic characters (tony, redd etc) are siding with the government and have so on prefectly justfiable basis, there is your moderation right there. And there was plenty of moderate view in the discussion between heroes in the first issue. In fact so far one of the anti registration side (referring to superheroes btw) has been the biggest d***, Namor when he tried to drown tony.

In theory, CIVIL WAR could be said to be questioning a staple of the superhero genre, and that is that they are "vigilantes" not under the employ and control of a government force, because they are independant to be more relatable with readers and to fit into the genre. In practice, however, its an allegory that is timely in the age of "America is Evil because Bush is President" sort of mantra.

Completely unfair.
We've read one issue where I agree hill is dislikable but she hasn't actually done anything wrong or unjustifiable in pursuit of the greater good, being a d*** isn't a crime (heck in the past batman made it a character trait). It's far too early to make the assumptions about the series you are making as something that is happening "in practice".
And where exactly is the bush allegory anyway? For it to be a bush allegory something would need to be started on less than stellar evidence which is not the case so far. Ie bush went to war on bad intelligence where is the allegory?


Marvel historically has always relied on current real world and political trends to make stories "hot" and realistic, which works wonders for the present...but only serves to date them badly. Note in the past how reliant on WW2 and the Cold War Marvel used to be; they even had a villian in the 70's who was, literally, an alternate-dimensional version of Gerald Ford. The 80's were full of knee-jerk anti-Reaganism. Those stories all were great for their time, but read them later on and it only reminds you of how old they are; even Ultimate issues from 5 years ago are having that dilemma. In a way its a shame Marvel's not playing longball with CW, because it could really stand up as something for the genre. Like a "reexamining".

See above, way too early to judge.
Even so in the first issue of civil war cap does brush on the conventions of the genre when he mentions how it is a tradition. (though by its very nature this examines the genre's conventions).

[Chris Wallace]

I know why Tony used Peter. I was being sarcastic. And he is USING him. Peter doesn't need a father. He's a grown man & Ben Parker did just fine. And if he was in need of a father figure, I think he could do better than a manipulative alcoholic.

[Dread]

You ever watch 24? I see jack bauer do far worse and he's the hero in that. I think she is unlikeable and pushy but nothing else you've mentioned. She had a telepath read someones mind that is all, happens all the time in x-men. It was perfectly justifiable too and completely non invasive and left no damage. IC built a whole story about mind altering not mind reading, irrelevant analogy. To be fair though I would have sided with hawkman then also.
As long as the actions are justifiable the characters nature is practically irrelevant. She doesn't like superheroes fair enough but so far she's been very professional about it from the point of view of her mission.
Does Jack Bauer ever do something that his country officially orders him "not" to do? If so, you can see why he is so popular. And no, I don't watch 24.

Thats one characer. Agent hill isn't responsible for the act's existance, merely for enforcing it. She is not the figure head for the act in the story, thats tony. And so far she's done nothing wrong (by wrong i mean something unjustifiable).
Tony Stark, much like Batman, is currently seen as "cool" because of being an arrogant manipulator. Batman can do something that seems "arsehole-ish", and everyone thinks its the most awesome thing on the planet; Iron Man is basically in the same boat now. The more of a douchebag he acts like, the cooler he becomes. Its not uncommon for the character, either, he's acted in simular ways in the past.

The only politicians we have seen have usually been oppurtunistic. Agent Hill is the face of SHIELD and often in these kind of stories, the face of the enforcer is the face you see most often. The face of "big brother" after all.

So, to you, she was justified in having her psychics TKO Spider-Man and Vision 2.0 and essentially YANK information out of their bodies without any sort of rights? "You have the right to remain silent" and all that? They were not officially arrested, but detained as argueably "enemy combatants", despite the fact that they were both there to help SHIELD take down the Collective, a threat they had no way of handling on their own.

I remember a Supreme Court case in which a man who passed out on the streets (and was a known drug dealer) challenged his conviction based on drugs pumped from his stomach without his legal consent (he was unconscious when they "searched" his body). The druggie WON. It was seen as a violation of privacy. Hill's action is not so unsimular.

Them? There is only one person so far in CW that has been anywhere near dislikable. Deadpool is going to be working for the government (i think) hardly holier than thou. And as pointed out most of the classic characters (tony, redd etc) are siding with the government and have so on prefectly justfiable basis, there is your moderation right there. And there was plenty of moderate view in the discussion between heroes in the first issue. In fact so far one of the anti registration side (referring to superheroes btw) has been the biggest d***, Namor when he tried to drown tony.
Namor's changed sides more often than some folks change their hair. I don't think anyone takes him too seriously anymore. Black Adam is doing a much better job with his schtick over in 52, actually. It actually is odd that Namor's defending the Hulk for once, but perhaps it was only an excuse to side against some of his other rivals.

As I said above, Tony is "hot" right now so long as he remains in that "play all sides" manipulator role.

Mr. Fantastic alone is hardly popular. Thing and Torch are more popular (and have both sold solo books) and both are anti-registration. He's "moderate", but classically is usually a government "sellout". He always sides with the government no matter how messed up they are, how many times they seek to arrest his pal Spider-Man or sent Sentinals to kill mutants. Mr. Fantastic is likely the closest example of a "narc" at Marvel. Ironic, as he and his team gained their powers from an ILLEGAL space mission (of course, they've more than repaid that debt).

As for Pym, despite all the wonderful stories written about him, and despite all his naunced quirks and amazing acts of heroism, the typical "Marvel fan" knows him by two things: size powers and once beating his wife. That's never going to change. He's not on any T-shirts, he doesn't sell comics by himself.

Whereas all of the anti-registration characters, Cap, Spidey (eventually), Wolverine, even Thing, are all more popular and have sold books by themselves. The only one on the registration side who can claim that is Iron Man, and his ongoing became very rare during the first Ellis issues and is only now getting back on track.

Completely unfair.
We've read one issue where I agree hill is dislikable but she hasn't actually done anything wrong or unjustifiable in pursuit of the greater good, being a d*** isn't a crime (heck in the past batman made it a character trait). It's far too early to make the assumptions about the series you are making as something that is happening "in practice".
And where exactly is the bush allegory anyway? For it to be a bush allegory something would need to be started on less than stellar evidence which is not the case so far. Ie bush went to war on bad intelligence where is the allegory?
Agent Hill outright calls Cap's side rubbish and sics agents to shoot him full of tranq darts to arrest him. You're not supposed to be siding with her. It's Capt. America. He's never wrong.

The Bush allegory was veiled. Ever since his Presidency, and especially since his reelection, a lot of Marvel stories have built upon the premise that you can't trust the government, that the government does rotten things, that they're "wiretapping" and spying on you in the name of security, and that the only good patriot is one who sides against America because of their morals. True, countless Marvel comics have been built on these premises, which are all classic...but how many can you recall during the 8 years of Clinton? Were there as many? I rest my case. I honestly don't mind the Liberalism, as I am one myself, but it does disturb me when the Left's one-sidedness becomes so transparent, because it makes some of their valid points seem like rubbish. A key example of this is ULTIMATES 2, which almost reads like a pamphlet that Micheal Moore might hand out.

See above, way too early to judge.
Even so in the first issue of civil war cap does brush on the conventions of the genre when he mentions how it is a tradition. (though by its very nature this examines the genre's conventions).
You have a point that the event is just starting and its too soon to start ripping. As it is, its still an improvement over HOM, and I am grateful to that. Millar at least is trying his best not to be as "extreme" as he is in ULTIMATES 2. And the fact that it has all this debate going on over both sides of the issue (BrianWilly, Question and Tropicko are having a HELLUVA debate in another topic right now) probably means that Marvel may have something about the "divided state of America". True, CW may seem dated in 10 years. But its certainly right on the pulse of some of the readers now. Which is probably what matters.

[gildea]

Does Jack Bauer ever do something that his country officially orders him "not" to do? If so, you can see why he is so popular. And no, I don't watch 24.

Not really no, he does stuff that his boss orders him not to do but the president himself tends to ok. Should give it a try btw if you ever get the time its fab. :)


The only politicians we have seen have usually been oppurtunistic. Agent Hill is the face of SHIELD and often in these kind of stories, the face of the enforcer is the face you see most often. The face of "big brother" after all.

Indeed but so far shes done nothing wrong IMO.

So, to you, she was justified in having her psychics TKO Spider-Man and Vision 2.0 and essentially YANK information out of their bodies without any sort of rights? "You have the right to remain silent" and all that? They were not officially arrested, but detained as argueably "enemy combatants", despite the fact that they were both there to help SHIELD take down the Collective, a threat they had no way of handling on their own.

Given the level of the threat yes she was justified. Firstly they were facing an unknown enemy that could bat around the sentry and spidey appeared to know something more than he was sharing (he did try to escape) which is justification enough for me. Secondly she appeared to be ignorant of the what HOM was. To put into consideration MILLIONS of people the world over had their lives dramatically altered/ruined by this, as a world peace keeping organisation with a responsibility to these people this alone would have been justifiable without the worry of the collective. I think either one of these would have been enough.

I remember a Supreme Court case in which a man who passed out on the streets (and was a known drug dealer) challenged his conviction based on drugs pumped from his stomach without his legal consent (he was unconscious when they "searched" his body). The druggie WON. It was seen as a violation of privacy. Hill's action is not so unsimular.

It's completely disimilar, one involves a persons personal rights the other involves the safety of the world and a violation of millions of other people. Thats not a proper analogy (the druggie would either need to have had information on a national threat or something that drastically changed the lives of millions).


Namor's changed sides more often than some folks change their hair. I don't think anyone takes him too seriously anymore. Black Adam is doing a much better job with his schtick over in 52, actually.

Its not to do with how seriously people take them. The main thrust of your argument is that one of the leaders of the registration side is a bit of a d*** I'm merely saying one of the people most opposed to registration has been far more of a d***.

Mr. Fantastic alone is hardly popular. Thing and Torch are more popular (and have both sold solo books) and both are anti-registration. He's "moderate", but classically is usually a government "whore". He always sides with the government no matter how messed up they are, how many times they seek to arrest his pal Spider-Man or sent Sentinals to kill mutants. Mr. Fantastic is likely the closest example of a "narc" at Marvel. Ironic, as he and his team gained their powers from an ILLEGAL space mission (of course, they've more than repaid that debt).

I'm fairly sure you've read "authorative action" and know what you've typed above literally isn't completely true. I agree he isn't as popular as thing and torch but you're moving the goal posts a little, your basis for cap has been how the marvel universe views him/his standing in it (from what you've typed) surely thats what you should be applying to reed also? In which case its a major plus for the registration side to have the leader of the most publically presentable team (moreso than the avengers i would argue) and the worlds smartest man on your side. I really think his prescence on the team alone provides it with enough 'moderation'

Whereas all of the anti-registration characters, Cap, Spidey (eventually), Wolverine, even Thing, are all more popular and have sold books by themselves. The only one on the registration side who can claim that is Iron Man, and his ongoing became very rare during the first Ellis issues and is only now getting back on track.

Deadpool, she-hulk (i think she's pro), and even pym despite your above criticisms have sold books (i concede pym was a while ago). Again though your judging them by sales and not how they fit into the marvel universe, cap and thing aside spidey and wolvie simply don't have the level of 'marvel public' acceptance to make their prescence on the anti side a big criticism of it from a comic book perspective.
Its a very simplisitc argument to make that one side is right because the higher selling character is on it because by its nature it has ZERO story considerations. (your argument with cap being held so high in the marvel universe is a story one i can't argue the point with for example, merely provide equivalents).


Agent Hill outright calls Cap's side rubbish and sics agents to shoot him full of tranq darts to arrest him. You're not supposed to be siding with her. It's Capt. America. He's never wrong. He's not a nasty, evil Republican.

Caps arguments were pretty rubbish (its always worked??). He can be wrong (and has been in the past). And where were hill's political leanings revealed? Your not supposed to LIKE hill, i don't but i am siding with her and agree with almost every action she's taken. She has made one mistake so far though (what i disagree with her on), she assumed cap would side with the law and as a result the soldiers he was supposed to be leading got owned, she should have had a psychic handy when she asked cap about this to take him down without incident.

The Bush allegory was veiled. Ever since his Presidency, and especially since his reelection, a lot of Marvel stories have built upon the premise that you can't trust the government, that the government does rotten things, that they're "wiretapping" and spying on you in the name of security, and that the only good patriot is one who sides against America because of their morals. True, countless Marvel comics have been built on these premises, which are all classic...but how many can you recall during the 8 years of Clinton? Were there as many? I rest my case. I honestly don't mind the Liberalism, as I am one myself, but it does disturb me when the Left's one-sidedness becomes so transparent, because it makes some of their valid points seem like rubbish. A key example of this is ULTIMATES 2, which almost reads like a pamphlet that Micheal Moore might hand out.

Dread all of those things mentioned are just general fiction conventions that you're saying are being applied to the bush government. If millar wanted to write an allegory he'd be less than subtle (see ultimates 2 which even in that he has the superheroes actually FIND wmds). For it to be an allegory things have to actually BE allegorical not just a fiction convention (ie an evil government). And so far the government has done NOTHING wrong in CW, it imposed a law after 100's of people died, that is all. You're criticising it on the basis of things that haven't happened (the government has done nothing evil) other than hill being a bit of a d***.

[BrianWilly]

Even if Hill technically did nothing wrong in her mindrape of Spider-Man (and I'm not prepared to accept that), I agree with Dread that the reader is meant to think that what she did was wrong. When you have Spider-Man of all people chained to a chair being forcibly "psyched" by a b**chy, arrogant military personel...I mean, there's obviously only one person in the room that the reader is meant to feel sympathy for.

Same with her reaction towards Captain America. You have Captain America of all people getting surrounded and ganged up by gun-wielding men in masks who are demanding that he betray his friends and peers or get arrested. How do you make that feel "right?" You can't.

And in narrative writing, who the reader feels sympathy for and who the reader thinks is mean and b**chy is incredibly significant. You're never going to have fanboys of Agent Hill. You're never going to have Agent Hill save the world from Magneto or leap into a burning building to rescue a baby puppy. On the other hand, you're always going to have her standing in the middle of a room barking orders at subordinates and being at odds with the heroes of the story. It's all symbology, and it's all effective. The narrative structure of that scene in Civil War #1 is ridiculously simple: hero gets roughed up by the villain, and then perseveres in a badass manner. Even if the government and SHIELD is completely justified in their implementation of the registration act (which, again, I don't agree with), it's blatantly and narratively clear who exactly Millar stacking his cards for. There's no way Maria Hill's side is going to "win" at the end of this series, because it's the narrative equivalent of the antagonist getting his or her way at the end of a superhero movie. And that would never fly.

[Dread]

Even if Hill technically did nothing wrong in her mindrape of Spider-Man (and I'm not prepared to accept that), I agree with Dread that the reader is meant to think that what she did was wrong. When you have Spider-Man of all people chained to a chair being forcibly "psyched" by a b**chy, arrogant military personel...I mean, there's obviously only one person in the room that the reader is meant to feel sympathy for.

Same with her reaction towards Captain America. You have Captain America of all people getting surrounded and ganged up by gun-wielding men in masks who are demanding that he betray his friends and peers or get arrested. How do you make that feel "right?" You can't.

And in narrative writing, who the reader feels sympathy for and who the reader thinks is mean and b**chy is incredibly significant. You're never going to have fanboys of Agent Hill. You're never going to have Agent Hill save the world from Magneto or leap into a burning building to rescue a baby puppy. On the other hand, you're always going to have her standing in the middle of a room barking orders at subordinates and being at odds with the heroes of the story. It's all symbology, and it's all effective. The narrative structure of that scene in Civil War #1 is ridiculously simple: hero gets roughed up by the villain, and then perseveres in a badass manner. Even if the government and SHIELD is completely justified in their implementation of the registration act (which, again, I don't agree with), it's blatantly and narratively clear who exactly Millar stacking his cards for. There's no way Maria Hill's side is going to "win" at the end of this series, because it's the narrative equivalent of the antagonist getting his or her way at the end of a superhero movie. And that would never fly.
Pretty much my feelings in a nutshell.

[gildea]

Even if Hill technically did nothing wrong in her mindrape of Spider-Man (and I'm not prepared to accept that), I agree with Dread that the reader is meant to think that what she did was wrong. When you have Spider-Man of all people chained to a chair being forcibly "psyched" by a b**chy, arrogant military personel...I mean, there's obviously only one person in the room that the reader is meant to feel sympathy for.


Overly simplistic assesment IMO that doesn't take into account the issues at hand. I like to think comic fans can make their own minds up rather than having a characters popularity come into it when an issue is brought up.

We are not sheep.

I'm a reader and I think was she did to spidey was justified. I accept i'm most likely in the minority but I doubt i'm completely alone. Of all the ways to be interogated I think telepathy is far more humane than most others (course i loves me some Jack Bauer).

Same with her reaction towards Captain America. You have Captain America of all people getting surrounded and ganged up by gun-wielding men in masks who are demanding that he betray his friends and peers or get arrested. How do you make that feel "right?" You can't.

See above. Though as I said previously I think that was a tactical mistake by hill.

And in narrative writing, who the reader feels sympathy for and who the reader thinks is mean and b**chy is incredibly significant. You're never going to have fanboys of Agent Hill.

The person I felt most sympathy for was actually stark at the funeral scence. How do you justify yourself to that grieving mother?

You're never going to have Agent Hill save the world from Magneto or leap into a burning building to rescue a baby puppy. On the other hand, you're always going to have her standing in the middle of a room barking orders at subordinates and being at odds with the heroes of the story. It's all symbology, and it's all effective.

Your also never going to see hill be responsible for blowing up a school like the badly organised superheroes pretty much were. Very symbolic, very effective.

The narrative structure of that scene in Civil War #1 is ridiculously simple: hero gets roughed up by the villain, and then perseveres in a badass manner.

Well you're showing your preconcieved notions a bit too clearly here. Like her or not hill is not a villain (yet), just a d***.

Even if the government and SHIELD is completely justified in their implementation of the registration act (which, again, I don't agree with), it's blatantly and narratively clear who exactly Millar stacking his cards for. There's no way Maria Hill's side is going to "win" at the end of this series, because it's the narrative equivalent of the antagonist getting his or her way at the end of a superhero movie. And that would never fly.

Only if you ignore the actual content of the story, who has sided with the registration side, simplify things to silly proportions and assume that comic readers can only form opinions based on what character sides where but ignore the actual issue (the main thrust of your argument here which seems to say caps a nice guy so he MUST be right rather than consider what he's actually right about).

Millar hasn't stacked anything (yet i should add). There is too much equivalency on the registration side which many seem intent on ignoring or dismissing. For millar to have stacked you'd have to be unable to see the point of the registration program, which i doubt.

[BrianWilly]

I'm not talking about whether or not Hill was right or wrong. I'm not talking whether or not she was justified. I'm talking solely about the way she is portrayed, and she is not portrayed as the hero of the story, she is portrayed as the enemy. The hero of the story does not gang up on Captain America and force him at gunpoint to comply with his or her decisions, and that's all there is to it.

And the content of the story isn't at issue here; the very point of Maria Hill's portrayal is for Millar to hide the content of the story. It doesn't matter if the readers see the point of the registration side. It doesn't even matter if the registration is the most logical thing anyone can ever think of. The fact is that if the most visible proponent of the registration act is a sneering, arrogant b**ch then already the story itself is favoring one side over the other. Not the content of the story, but the story itself. I doubt Millar is thinking that everyone is automatically going to be anti-registration just because he gave Agent Hill PMS up the wazoo, but what we're talking about here isn't what the reader ends up feeling but what Millar wants for the reader to feel.

The New Warriors were portrayed as superficial, idiotic caricatures of reality show contestants; we're not supposed to sympathize with them either. But the New Warriors are not the protagonists of the story; people like Spider-Man and Captain America and even Iron Man are.

[XwolverineX]

Dammit, when does issue 2 come out?

[Dread]

Et al
While there may be technical justifications for Hill's actions in the sort of realistic military/security area, I do think that you're underestimating connections to some of these figures. Even if you see that an adversary of Spider-Man's has a POINT, if they come off as pushy and "mean", you're not going to want them to succeed in the story. Take a gander at Magneto, before so many writers wanted to turn him into a superhero; he was a villian with a very excellent POV, one that at times was accurate. But that doesn't mean that every reader of the X-Men wanted him to triumph. The reader was meant to side with the X-Men, that there could be another way. The same could be said for Hill and the Registration camp. Their actions, at least narratively, have done little to improve the lives of superheroes (and in fact have made them more hectic, inconvient, or stressfull), and done nothing at all to address the problem of villians (why does Wolverine have to track down Nitro? Why can't the almighty SHIELD use some of those nasty tactics they use against Spider-Man or Cap to find him?).

Frankly, if Hill'd used psychics to take down Cap, it would have been very efficient, but you can't say that the reader would be meant to feel GOOD about it. It'd be like watching Camdus in JLU capture Superman; is the audience supposed to stand up and cheer? Most likely not, and the writer knows this. A "shocking" arrest is in solicts and one wonders who it is for; if it is Cap, I am fairly certain he's not about to become unsympathetic.

From what I gather about 24, it may actually be the opposite of what I stated earlier; a very "conservative" view where Bauer and the gov't get to handle "threats" in the sort of "kid-gloves-are-off" ways that appeal to fans who like Punisher or that kind of thing, like a power fantasy. I can then surely understand your reasons for finding satisfaction and enjoyment in Agent Hill and SHIELD's level of efficiency in the matter. I don't think it'd be the majority opinion, though, that would respect an agent who sics gunmen on Capt. America. Most audiences dislike these kinds of characters, especially when they have "legal" authority. There are characters who get buy on being disliked (Emma Frost, Quicksilver), but in the context of the story, it may not work out the same.

gildea has a fair point that we need to let the story unfold a bit more, though. These are just some of my opinions on what's been show and solicted so far, as well as opinions about the nature of some of these stories. Millar's hardly made a secret of his Left philosophy, and comic books rarely tend to write stories where an overreaching, aggressive government is actually justified and sympathetic. The moral dilemma of CIVIL WAR is a good one, better than the utter lack of one (where one should have been) in HOM. I just figure one side is naturally being stacked as being the one most audiences would side with. It may not be rational to want to believe that some audiences would be as simplistic as "they'd side with whoever Wolverine is with", but then again, I'd hate to believe that someone votes for a politician based solely on their position on Gay Marriage...but here we are.

[gildea]

I'm not talking about whether or not Hill was right or wrong. I'm not talking whether or not she was justified. I'm talking solely about the way she is portrayed, and she is not portrayed as the hero of the story, she is portrayed as the enemy. The hero of the story does not gang up on a superhero and force him at gunpoint to comply with his or her decisions, and that's all there is to it.

And the content of the story isn't at issue here; the very point of Maria Hill's portrayal is for Millar to hide the content of the story. It doesn't matter if the readers see the point of the registration side. It doesn't even matter if the registration is the most logical thing anyone can ever think of. The fact is that if the most visible proponent of the registration act is a sneering, arrogant b**ch then already the story itself is favoring one side over the other. Not the content of the story, but the story itself.


And I understand your point but think it is overly simplistic and doesn't give enough credit to comic book readers and also ignores the fact that many nice people (my favourite example being reed) are pro registration.

I also think your point loses a lot of its weight because it seems content to ignore the fact that maria hill may well be correct and justified in her actions, which i supposed is required as your point seems to rest on demonising her somewhat.

As I've said I don't think maria hill is any worse than batman has been of late and has been fully justified in her actions. I can accept shades of grey as I do believe they clearly exist here.

The hero of the story does not gang up on a superhero and force him at gunpoint to comply with his or her decisions, and that's all there is to it.

Punisher, jack bauer, dirty harry, batman(not gunpoint but has done some pretty crappy things to superheroes), black panther etc etc etc
These people have done similar things and are genrally considered heroes.

I could also argue as well as a counter example to this that the existance of wolverine in the anti side could concievably mean (from a marvel universe viewpoint) that they aren't the heroes due to his penchant for killing and his recent death threat against the president.

[gildea]

While there may be technical justifications for Hill's actions in the sort of realistic military/security area, I do think that you're underestimating connections to some of these figures. Even if you see that an adversary of Spider-Man's has a POINT, if they come off as pushy and "mean", you're not going to want them to succeed in the story. Take a gander at Magneto, before so many writers wanted to turn him into a superhero; he was a villian with a very excellent POV, one that at times was accurate. But that doesn't mean that every reader of the X-Men wanted him to triumph. The reader was meant to side with the X-Men, that there could be another way.


True (and good point) but the difference (so far) between hill and magneto is magneto has killed relatively innocent people before. Hill is being set up as an antagonist for cap yes but sha has not yet crossed the line into villainy.

Though both magneto and hill have some justification the different being that magnetos justification will be forever tainted by the blood of those he sacraficed along the way. So far in this story hill's hands are clean (in fact only the heroes hands are dirty here so far).


ps loved the et al quote, gave me a giggle :)

[SpideyInATree]

And I don't know if I'd ask Spider-Man to be my bodyguard when Luke Cage was available.

It's a lot harder for a billionaire playboy white guy to manipulate and lie to a black man from the streets than it is to do that to a white guy from Queens who was raised by his sweet Aunt.

[Dread]

True (and good point) but the difference (so far) between hill and magneto is magneto has killed relatively innocent people before. Hill is being set up as an antagonist for cap yes but sha has not yet crossed the line into villainy.

Though both magneto and hill have some justification the different being that magnetos justification will be forever tainted by the blood of those he sacraficed along the way. So far in this story hill's hands are clean (in fact only the heroes hands are dirty here so far).


ps loved the et al quote, gave me a giggle :)
Giggles are good. I just didn't feel like replying to everything.

You're correct about the "body count" thing, but there is one other thing that connects Hill to Magneto for my example; they're the antagonists. In the crux of most of the stories, their acts serve to block the protagonists from their goals (and in some ways agonize them). The fact that Agent Hill, as of now, is not evil or murderous doesn't mean she is not being set up as an antagonist. Audiences are usually not being emotionally steered towards "rooting" for the antagonist, otherwise the antagonist wouldn't be that; but rather the protagonist (main "hero" or his/her/their ally). By admitting that Hill is being an antagonist to Cap (and basically to most other heroes that don't obey what she says, which is SO unlike a lot of "villians"), you are sort of conceding the point. Audiences root for the protagonist, not their enemy. That's what I was saying about the writing is clearly steering us towards one side, and unless there are some massive things in store for the next few volumes, it may remain so, even if the morality dilemma is a valid one (which it is).

[Vanguard07]

I couldnt justify the mindrape of anyone. Less yet an avenger who was actively trying to save help save the world at the time while shield stood by and twiddled their thumbs.

Also they arrested and mindraped Spiderman entirely based on the information they stole from his head in the first place before they had any reason to even suspect him.

AND the words "house of M" shouldnt mean anything to anyone in the marvel universe except for those few individuals who were with Wanda when she changed the world back. The event that affected the whole world is reffered to as "M day" not "house of M". Maria Hill had no real reason to suspect that House of M was anything of earth shattering importance. For all she new it could have been Peter Parker's favorite tv show.

Basically she was completely unjustified in her actions. This whole "the ends justifies the means" thing is exactly the reason why people in the MU should not trust their government and is another reason why this Registration shouldnt be allowed to pass. A government thats willing to kidnap and mindrape it's own heroes without justification should not be telling people who the good guys and who the bad guys are. They should not be governing in general.

To sum it all up.
Bring back Nick Fury. Fury's the man.
&*#@ Director Maria Hill. I hope she chokes to death on a sandwich in the middle of a room full of her employees who are all unwilling to help her cause they all hate her too much.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I couldnt justify the mindrape of anyone. Less yet an avenger who was actively trying to save help save the world at the time while shield stood by and twiddled their thumbs.

Also they arrested and mindraped Spiderman entirely based on the information they stole from his head in the first place before they had any reason to even suspect him.

AND the words "house of M" shouldnt mean anything to anyone in the marvel universe except for those few individuals who were with Wanda when she changed the world back. The event that affected the whole world is reffered to as "M day" not "house of M". Maria Hill had no real reason to suspect that House of M was anything of earth shattering importance. For all she new it could have been Peter Parker's favorite tv show.

Basically she was completely unjustified in her actions. This whole "the ends justifies the means" thing is exactly the reason why people in the MU should not trust their government and is another reason why this Registration shouldnt be allowed to pass. A government thats willing to kidnap and mindrape it's own heroes without justification should not be telling people who the good guys and who the bad guys are. They should not be governing in general.

To sum it all up.
Bring back Nick Fury. Fury's the man.
&*#@ Director Maria Hill. I hope she chokes to death on a sandwich in the middle of a room full of her employees who are all unwilling to help her cause they all hate her too much.

LMFAO :up:

[BrianWilly]

Yeah, someone doesn't have to be outright evil to be the antagonist in a story. Good guys in stories have to take on bullies and mean bastards all the time who aren't considered full-on evil. She's not a supervillain or anything, but she was the villain/antagonist that Cap had to contend with in this issue and in the context of the narrative.

I hate the Punisher. Not only is he overrated, IMO the only reason he isn't considered a total villain is because the targets of his violence are more villainous than he is. In no way should he ever be considered a hero, much less a superhero.

Wolverine is a hero and a superhero. He doesn't kill without good reason. He shows remorse for his past crimes. The only reason he attacked the president and other heroes is because he got mind-controlled, which is hardly some sort of evidence or black mark against him considering that half the entire human population in the Marvel U gets mind-controlled at some point or another.
I also think your point loses a lot of its weight because it seems content to ignore the fact that maria hill may well be correct and justified in her actions, which i supposed is required as your point seems to rest on demonising her somewhat.Then I'm not sure you're understanding my point, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not she was "justified" or not. Even if Hill was completely justified in every single way conceivable in what she did, the fact is that she was portrayed as the antagonist in this issue. She was the bastard making threats, she was the bully acting out against the hero, ordering him to betray his friends and then ambushing him when he doesn't. Millar may not have given a lot of literal arguments against the registration act but narratively he has utterly stacked the deck.

[stillanerd]

Then I'm not sure you're understanding my point, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not she was "justified" or not. Even if Hill was completely justified in every single way conceivable in what she did, the fact is that she was portrayed as the antagonist in this issue. She was the bastard making threats, she was the bully acting out against the hero, ordering him to betray his friends and then ambushing him when he doesn't. Millar may not have given a lot of literal arguments against the registration act but narratively he has utterly stacked the deck.

Exactly. And I'm so glad I'm not the only one who is seeing through the Marvel spin machine (props BTW to you and Dread). Everything we have seen so far in terms of the pro-registration sides actions has been portrayed in terms of the story as being negative, from Iron Man acting like the reincarnation of Machiavelli, Agent Hill's ordering Spider-Man to be "mindraped," and her the trigger happy S.H.I.E.L.D. agents against Captain America. And that's nothing compared to how Civil War: Frontline has been advertised, where one reporter is "anti-registration" and the other reporter is "anti-registration" but forced to wrtie "pro-registration" articles in order to keep his job, and that J. Jonah Jameson, a guy who is traditionally seen as Spider-Man's most persistant enemy, is representing the "pro-registration" side of things. I also thought it was absolutely laughable that Joe Q in the Joe's Friday's from two weeks ago tried to make the argument that no side was being favored by slamming the New Warriors when they were not even on any side in Civil War, especially since the act hadn't passed yet, and were written out of character. He also spun it to make Cap look like he wasn't the person we should've been rooting for when he clearly was.

[Chris Wallace]

It's a lot harder for a billionaire playboy white guy to manipulate and lie to a black man from the streets than it is to do that to a white guy from Queens who was raised by his sweet Aunt.
That's just it; he didn't want a bodyguard-he wanted a pawn. I have recently shifted the bulk of the blame for recent events w/:spidey: because of you. These are clearly situations that Tony has put him in, & I guess if somebody offered to put me up in a luxury apartment after mt house got destroyed I wouldn't be so quick to question his motives either.

[samurai black]

I hate the Punisher. Not only is he overrated, IMO the only reason he isn't considered a total villain is because the targets of his violence are more villainous than he is. In no way should he ever be considered a hero, much less a superhero.

Refrain from killing doesn't make someone a hero. Plenty of heroes who claim to have shiny morals have killed (Didn't spidey chew morlun's face off not too long ago?) What separates pun from other heroes is the fact that he doesn't give 2nd chances. He focuses on the underbelly of crime bc no one else does. They're all too busy with the superpowered rogues galleries to bother with the serial rapist down the block, or the drug kingpin whos terrorizing the neighborhood. But now with the powered heroes busy fighting each other and supervillains runnin wild, we'll see that the Punisher wasn't overrated, but underused.

[gildea]

Then I'm not sure you're understanding my point, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not she was "justified" or not. Even if Hill was completely justified in every single way conceivable in what she did, the fact is that she was portrayed as the antagonist in this issue. She was the bastard making threats, she was the bully acting out against the hero, ordering him to betray his friends and then ambushing him when he doesn't. Millar may not have given a lot of literal arguments against the registration act but narratively he has utterly stacked the deck.


As I said I think thats an overly simplistic assessment. For it to have any real weight motives need to be considered.

Besides you're weighting your argument because your words are emotion ladden "betray", "ambush", "bully" etc You're applying your own motive to her actions yet insisting we ignore the stories given motives. Not a particularly fair way to debate the issue.

This seems to stem from the idea that many marvel readers can't seem to consider that cap might be wrong....

[jaydawg]

Punisher is no hero and never will be. He kills for fun. Thats canon.

[Chris Wallace]

Refrain from killing doesn't make someone a hero. Plenty of heroes who claim to have shiny morals have killed (Didn't spidey chew morlun's face off not too long ago?) What separates pun from other heroes is the fact that he doesn't give 2nd chances. He focuses on the underbelly of crime bc no one else does. They're all too busy with the superpowered rogues galleries to bother with the serial rapist down the block, or the drug kingpin whos terrorizing the neighborhood. But now with the powered heroes busy fighting each other and supervillains runnin wild, we'll see that the Punisher wasn't overrated, but underused.
I don't agree with you or Brian 100%, but you both make valid points. Punisher has his uses but he's not a hero by any stretch of the imagination.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Punisher is no hero and never will be. He kills for fun. Thats canon.

I thought he killed for Punishment?

[TheCorpulent1]

He enjoys it sometimes.

[Darthphere]

He enjoys it sometimes.


Most of the time.

[TheCorpulent1]

About 51.3% of the time. :mad:

[Tropico]

Your not supposed to LIKE hill, i don't but i am siding with her and agree with almost every action she's taken. She has made one mistake so far though (what i disagree with her on), she assumed cap would side with the law and as a result the soldiers he was supposed to be leading got owned, she should have had a psychic handy when she asked cap about this to take him down without incident.

Hill has been making the wrong kind of waves since before CW. She's also been made to look incompetent and full of hubris. Should her decision to not have the Avengers help with the current threat stood? You ARE aware that she didn't want the Avengers getting involved, right?

Regarding the Capt. America incident I would ask you to go read it again caregully and see if you still hold to your posts. I read it again. Miss Hill initiated action against Cap just because he wasn't on her side, he wasn't the one that provoked the incident nor did he "throw the first punch". The law hasn't passed yet, why is she trying to "bring him in"? Why is she using a squad that isn't supposed to be in effect until after/and if the law is passed? For disobeying orders? Cap has a right to renounce SHIELD or his Captain America mantle as he has done before. If SHIELD isn't being the totalitarian machine, like you would have us believe, why didn't SHIELD give him that choice? Isn't he entitled to the same rights and freedoms the rest of the people are?

Given the level of the threat yes she was justified. Firstly they were facing an unknown enemy that could bat around the sentry and spidey appeared to know something more than he was sharing (he did try to escape) which is justification enough for me. Secondly she appeared to be ignorant of the what HOM was. To put into consideration MILLIONS of people the world over had their lives dramatically altered/ruined by this, as a world peace keeping organisation with a responsibility to these people this alone would have been justifiable without the worry of the collective. I think either one of these would have been enough.

I was under the impression that law abiding agencies had more restrictions than vigilantes did, using the X-Men as an example for mind invasion is a tainted argument if you want us to believe that the government is right in doing so by saying "If the heroes do it, then SHIELD can do it too." As far as I know Ms. Marvel is still an agent of SHIELD and should have debriefed her bosses about the whole House of M incident since she DOES remeber it. Why didn't she? Writer's "oops"? The government is already supposed to know what mutants lost their powers. Y'know...O.N.E.? The readers have the benefit of knowing what House of M was, she didn't. It could have been the name the heroes gave M Day, nothing more than that. What happens in the rest of New Avengers gives you reason to think that Miss Hill was justified in taking information away from these two people (never mind that you would need a warrant to take info from someone's computer drives, but they still did it to the Vision). If you project this into a vacuum (or into situations that are not life and death) you'll see that Miss Hill's tendency to think that she's right and that she's entitled to take anything she needs is violating a person's freedoms. Would you say that she was justified if they found out nothing of use apart from ehat they already knew? Is she entitled to go and rape anyone's mind if they look suspicious or like they might know something she doesn't?

Your also never going to see hill be responsible for blowing up a school like the badly organised superheroes pretty much were. Very symbolic, very effective.

Until a writer decides to demonize them enough or it furthers a story.


Overly simplistic assesment IMO that doesn't take into account the issues at hand. I like to think comic fans can make their own minds up rather than having a characters popularity come into it when an issue is brought up.

We are not sheep.

I'm a reader and I think was she did to spidey was justified. I accept i'm most likely in the minority but I doubt i'm completely alone. Of all the ways to be interogated I think telepathy is far more humane than most others (course i loves me some Jack Bauer).

And I understand your point but think it is overly simplistic and doesn't give enough credit to comic book readers and also ignores the fact that many nice people (my favourite example being reed) are pro registration.

Ok, people are not sheep but they're buying the whole New Warriors are bumbling buffons thing? They're buying the whole "the registration will give them some badly needed training" when MOST teams (including the New Warriors) already do so? I'm sorry, but I've seen how people have eaten up the whole New Warriors as glory hounds thing coupled with Nitro's convenient mega-explosion (which he hasn't done in populated places before, odd). I give props to Marvel for setting this up perfectly, to people who know the characters it's nothing more than a set up. To quote you: "Very symbolic, very effective."

As I've said I don't think maria hill is any worse than batman has been of late and has been fully justified in her actions. I can accept shades of grey as I do believe they clearly exist here.

LOL!:D:D:D:D You DO know that Batman admitted that he went about doing things the wrong way and he was even sorry for the path he took? He went away on a cruise for a whole year to find himself along with Dick and Tim.

[Darthphere]

About 51.3% of the time. :mad:


Thats still most of the time.:o :o :o :o :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, in the same way that $9.99 is "under $10" in commercials. :o

[Darthphere]

Yeah, in the same way that $9.99 is "under $10" in commercials. :o


Yeah.:confused:

[SpideyInATree]

That's just it; he didn't want a bodyguard-he wanted a pawn. I have recently shifted the bulk of the blame for recent events w/:spidey: because of you. These are clearly situations that Tony has put him in, & I guess if somebody offered to put me up in a luxury apartment after mt house got destroyed I wouldn't be so quick to question his motives either.

I don't think Stark would have immediately thought Pete as a pawn, but that's the way it's going to seem. And that's probably why down the road in Civil War someone named Tony Stark is going to get a beat down from someone named Peter F'n Parker.

[Darthphere]

I don't think Stark would have immediately thought Pete as a pawn, but that's the way it's going to seem. And that's probably why down the road in Civil War someone named Tony Stark is going to get a beat down from someone named Peter F'n Parker.


Until Tony presses that fail safe on Peter's suit.:o :o :o :o

[SpideyInATree]

Peter Parker, the guy who invented his own web shooters and has outsmarted Doctor F'n Octopus, would really wear Stark's made suit to FIGHT Stark?

I know there are some people out there who don't have a clue but, Pete? COME ON!! Give him a little more credit!

[deemar325]

Until Tony presses that fail safe on Peter's suit.:o :o :o :o

Man!! you know that is soo..gonna happen.

[Darthphere]

Peter Parker, the guy who invented his own web shooters and has outsmarted Doctor F'n Octopus, would really wear Stark's made suit to FIGHT Stark?

I know there are some people out there who don't have a clue but, Pete? COME ON!! Give him a little more credit!


Well if the cover is any indication(covers tend to lie) yes.

[deemar325]

Peter Parker, the guy who invented his own web shooters and has outsmarted Doctor F'n Octopus, would really wear Stark's made suit to FIGHT Stark?

I know there are some people out there who don't have a clue but, Pete? COME ON!! Give him a little more credit!

Well Peter is smart and all, yet he's prone to letting his emotions get to him and screwing up big-time.

If provoked Spidey would react without thinking.

[SpideyInATree]

Well Peter is smart and all, yet he's prone to letting his emotions get to him and screwing up big-time.

If provoked Spidey would react without thinking.

True, Pete has dove into situations going on full emotion. It's usually when an Osborn is involved though.

Pete COULD also disable the failsafe. :up:

[Darthphere]

True, Pete has dove into situations going on full emotion. It's usually when an Osborn is involved though.

Pete COULD also disable the failsafe. :up:


If he knew it existed, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[deemar325]

True, Pete has dove into situations going on full emotion. It's usually when an Osborn is involved though.

Pete COULD also disable the failsafe. :up:

True enough, but it'll be cooler if he has to overcome his very suit to take on Tony.

[deemar325]

If he knew it existed, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I sort of assumed he wouldn't have a clue also.

[SpideyInATree]

True enough, but it'll be cooler if he has to overcome his very suit to take on Tony.

Yeah, that would be kind of cool in a way. Seeing that Millar is writing Civil War I have confidence in him when he's handling Spidey. I could see Millar writing Spidey beating Stark, even with his own suit trying to beat him.

[deemar325]

Yeah, that would be kind of cool in a way. Seeing that Millar is writing Civil War I have confidence in him when he's handling Spidey. I could see Millar writing Spidey beating Stark, even with his own suit trying to beat him.

With McNiven drawing it I'm sold either way.

[Speedball]

Looks like my name is true.
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235870

[PWN3R]

Joe Q killed him and loved every second of doing it.

[Speedball]

did you read the thread?
he ain't dead, who else could have survived the explosion?

[iloveclones]

Did you? That's not exactly proof it's Speedball.

[Speedball]

but who else could it be?
Namorita? i think not
the other Two? hell no.
Speedball? The kid who can deflect kinetic energy? yes

[PWN3R]

but who else could it be?
Namorita? i think not
the other Two? hell no.
Speedball? The kid who can deflect kinetic energy? yes

lol I dunno, thats to easy.

[iloveclones]

but who else could it be?
Namorita? i think not
the other Two? hell no.
Speedball? The kid who can deflect kinetic energy? yes

I'm not arguing that SB makes the most sense. I'm arguing the fact that you have anything that resembles proof of it. I read that preview, and I noticed how they went out of their way to not use either his/her. Seeing how there was only one female on the team, I would say that they might be hiding the fact that it's Namorita.

[Speedball]

but how can it be her, she doesn't have any power that makes her invulnerable or shield herself. She was also practically next to Nitro when he caused the blast.

[Tropico]

Looks like my name is true.
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235870

Dude, you're going around posting this in a bunch of threads? Check THIS (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8810082&postcount=116) out and check the date.:D If you take the solicitation literally the one who most fits the bill is Microbe even though he's one of the two least likely to survive the explosion.;):up:

[Speedball]

Also, Speedball egged the heroes on to attack them. America's gonna hate him for that.

[Speedball]

Dude, you're going around posting this in a bunch of threads? Check THIS (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8810082&postcount=116) out and check the date.:D If you take the solicitation literally the one who most fits the bill is Microbe even though he's one of the two least likely to survive the explosion.;):up:
How is that possible? Microbe does what? contols germs? how could he possibly survive?
Speedball could have been knocked onto another continent, and been in a coma for all this time.

[SpideyInATree]

Speedball is the least of comic book fans worries, my friend.

With the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Man, the fans have other concerns on their minds. That is if you're a traditional Spider-Man fan.

However, I am not and find the events in # 532 to be refreshing and exciting. :)

[Tropico]

How is that possible? Microbe does what? contols germs? how could he possibly survive?
Speedball could have been knocked onto another continent, and been in a coma for all this time.

Dude, you're preaching to the choir. I know that Robbie is the most likely to survive powerwise. This being comics, it doesn't mean that he HAS to survive since real world logic and common sense don't always reign in the MU. We could later find out that some of the germs/microbes had a symbiotic relationship with Microbe and reformed him after the blast or some cockamanie story like that.:o

[PWN3R]

He can't give his identity away, plus its pointless, what does that accomplish?

Hey I'm Peter Parker A.K.A. Spiderman! Psshhh Tony, what now?

:(

[Speedball]

what happened?
i dropped all of my spider-man comics from my list. they all have gotten...oh i don't know...stupid and kinda uneventful.

[Tropico]

You know what would make me laugh? If underneath the costume Aunt May gave Peter, Peter had the Iron Spider outfit and it made him look like Tony. And then Spider Man goes: "I'm Tony Stark!":D

[SpideyInATree]

He can't give his identity away, plus its pointless, what does that accomplish?

Hey I'm Peter Parker A.K.A. Spiderman! Psshhh Tony, what now?

:(

You obviously didn't READ the story, did you?

Either he goes public or he becomes an outlaw, do you understand? He can be thrown in jail if he keeps the secret identity and MJ and Aunt May will also be paying a heavy price.

[PWN3R]

You obviously didn't READ the story, did you?

Either he goes public or he becomes an outlaw, do you understand? He can be thrown in jail if he keeps the secret identity and MJ and Aunt May will also be paying a heavy price.

Actually I did, and I dont think JMS understands the concept on CW.

Yes he can be thrown in jail, he has to tell the government, he doesnt have to make a public announcement on tv. :o

Be that as it may, it was the first ASM issue I've enjoyed in a while. :confused:

[GNR]

Speedball is the least of comic book fans worries, my friend.

With the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Man, the fans have other concerns on their minds. That is if you're a traditional Spider-Man fan.

However, I am not and find the events in # 532 to be refreshing and exciting. :)

I agree.Spidey unmasking himself would be a step forward in superhero/humans relations.It would show that some heroes are willing to not hide in the shadows anymore and cooperate with the government after the incident in Stamford.

AMS #532 is such a great read.

[PWN3R]

I agree.Spidey unmasking himself would be a step forward in superhero/humans relations.It would show that some heroes are willing to not hide in the shadows anymore and cooperate with the government after the incident in Stamford.

AMS #532 is such a great read.

I agree it was a good read, but why make an announcement to the public on a grand scale? So everyone who reveals themselves has to do the same thing?

He can tell the government, sure people will find out, but he doesnt have to make a huge event out of it.

I guess I'm being to technical, can't wait for #533.

[GNR]

I think Tony is just trying to show that the heroes have nothing to hide anymore since he's the leader of the pro-side.

Either way,I can't see Pete going through with it.

[Shadow_Knight]

I'm with Iron man and Spider-man.

[PWN3R]

If I were a hero, and worked so hard at keeping my secret, I'd be with Cap.

But Tony makes sense too.

Its want makes CW sooo good. :up:

[Cachete25]

I wonder if Peter Parker legally changed his name to SpiderMan, could he just come out and say "hi, I'm out in the open my real name is SpiderMan" Lol

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

If Matt Murdock is in jail, who is DD right now?

[PWN3R]

If Matt Murdock is in jail, who is DD right now?

That is the question to ask these days.

It hasn't been revealed yet.

[GNR]

I think it's Hawkeye,but who knows.

[TheCorpulent1]

Dude, it's Bucky. Again. ;)

[GNR]

Winter Soldier is putting in double time hunting down Lukin and posing as DD.That has to be it.

[TheCorpulent1]

Just watch for the "clang" sound effect when he hits something with his left arm. You heard it here first! :)

[GNR]

Brubaker's got a boner for Bucky then.

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/spi440/LoganTony.gif

[Tropico]

LOL! The teeth thing is so obvious. I wonder if when they out in the actual dialogue it'll be even funnier because we'll all be thinking that Wolvie is showing Tony his molars.

[DBM]

If Matt Murdock is in jail, who is DD right now?

Ned Leeds.

It's always Ned Leeds.

[samurai black]

I thought that you could just read civil war 1-7 and not miss stuff. So i read ASM 532 and find out Peter may reveal himsefl at a white house press conference, then i read civil war frontline and i see that tony has publicly unmasked and that speedball lives (although powerless and under arrest) and in the previews for Wolverine we learn the fate of Nitro. Aren't these major plot revelations? Just seems so much stuff ISN'T going to happen in the main book. I know all are going to be good reads, but man, feels like IC all over again. Looks like i'll have to buy everything (again). At least with HOM, there were no big developments outside of the main story, hell the other titles barely fit into the plot at all.

[TheCorpulent1]

They're major revelations for the Stamford disaster, which is the springboard for Civil War. Civil War itself is about the conflict between the pro-registration heroes and the anti-registration heroes; the Stamford disaster is just the catalyst that sped the registration act into passing.

[stillanerd]

I thought that you could just read civil war 1-7 and not miss stuff. So i read ASM 532 and find out Peter may reveal himsefl at a white house press conference, then i read civil war frontline and i see that tony has publicly unmasked and that speedball lives (although powerless and under arrest) and in the previews for Wolverine we learn the fate of Nitro. Aren't these major plot revelations? Just seems so much stuff ISN'T going to happen in the main book. I know all are going to be good reads, but man, feels like IC all over again. Looks like i'll have to buy everything (again). At least with HOM, there were no big developments outside of the main story, hell the other titles barely fit into the plot at all.

We also have confirmation that Speedball did survive. However, there is an even bigger revelation in the upcoming issue of Thunderbolts: Apparently, it shows scenes from Civil War #2 where Spider-Man has revealed that he's Peter Parker on live TV

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow. And every time raving Bendis-haters said it would happen, I just wrote them off as overreacting. :(

[samurai black]

We also have confirmation that Speedball did survive. However, there is an even bigger revelation in the upcoming issue of Thunderbolts: Apparently, it shows scenes from Civil War #2 where Spider-Man has revealed that he's Peter Parker on live TV

NOOOOOOOOO!!!! :down :down

[Darthphere]

We also have confirmation that Speedball did survive. However, there is an even bigger revelation in the upcoming issue of Thunderbolts: Apparently, it shows scenes from Civil War #2 where Spider-Man has revealed that he's Peter Parker on live TV


Marvel, the house of bad ideas.

[RogueLDN]

Marvel, the house of bad ideas.

Proof? please?
dont disbelieve but i ve got to see this for my self.

[deemar325]

I'm on the Soul Patrol side!!

[stillanerd]

Proof? please?
dont disbelieve but i ve got to see this for my self.

Nothing visual but rather reports from two different people who have read a preview copy:

http://www.comicboards.com/smb/view.php?trd=060607182218
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3205761&postcount=28

Still, this IS something we probably have to see for ourselves.

UPDATE: The comic book resources forum thread has been erased and comicboards posted a brand new post containing the same spoiler, but now more in line with their editoral policy:

http://www.comicboards.com/smb/view.php?trd=060608041721

[SpideyInATree]

I agree it was a good read, but why make an announcement to the public on a grand scale? So everyone who reveals themselves has to do the same thing?

He can tell the government, sure people will find out, but he doesnt have to make a huge event out of it.

I guess I'm being to technical, can't wait for #533.

Well, why not make a huge event out of it? Spider-Man, to the Marvel Universe, is one of the most secretive and contreversial superheroes. All the Daily Bugle editorials claiming that Spidey is a menace and half the people believing it and the other half thinking he's a hero, etc.

It'd be a shining example if Spidey were to step up and reveal his ID to help pave the way for the other heroes who have a lot to protect. Peter is pretty much like the one here who has the most to lose by revealing his identity.

So, why not make a big deal out of it? :o

[SpideyInATree]

We also have confirmation that Speedball did survive. However, there is an even bigger revelation in the upcoming issue of Thunderbolts: Apparently, it shows scenes from Civil War #2 where Spider-Man has revealed that he's Peter Parker on live TV

Dude, that's going to be so freakin' cool to see. I can't wait to see how many of the characters react to it.

[Colossal Spoons]

I think the heroes should just stop doing their jobs for a while and see how these uppity civilians like it when Rhino comes running through their coffee shops and Count Nefaria takes over the U.N. :mad:

[Darthphere]

Dude, that's going to be so freakin' cool to see. I can't wait to see how many of the characters react to it.


I dont know about the characters but if you want to know my reaction, it involves vomit.

[Dread]

I think the heroes should just stop doing their jobs for a while and see how these uppity civilians like it when Rhino comes running through their coffee shops and Count Nefaria takes over the U.N. :mad:
In the end, its innocent civilians who would suffer more than the "elites" who are making the law or pushing the public's support of it. Hence the dilemma. It puts the heroes in a real "rock and hard place" sort of thing.

Marvel's a place that doesn't need real mega-villians. The government'll usually do. ;)

[Deathlok2001]

D.C., just kidding.

LMAO

:eek::joker::D

[Colossal Spoons]

In the end, its innocent civilians who would suffer more than the "elites" who are making the law or pushing the public's support of it. Hence the dilemma. It puts the heroes in a real "rock and hard place" sort of thing.

Marvel's a place that doesn't need real mega-villians. The government'll usually do. ;)

That's why I could never be a super"hero" cuz I'm a jerk and would do something like that just to teach 'em a lesson. Even the innocent civilians ned to be taught a lesson, what they did to Johnny was so uncalled for.

[samurai black]

It'd be a shining example if Spidey were to step up and reveal his ID to help pave the way for the other heroes who have a lot to protect. Peter is pretty much like the one here who has the most to lose by revealing his identity.

So, why not make a big deal out of it? :o

HUH? Did you read Civil War Frontline? Spidey actually gives the best reasons why superheroes shouldn't reveal their identities. He talked about loved ones he's lost bc of being a superhero. He also explained that his family would be the 1st targets if he went public. It's one thing to reveal your id to the government, but to hold a press conference at the white house? That's a crazy idea. Spider-man knows the type of villains he attracts and how demented they are.Doc Ock almost married Aunt May for chrsit sakes! Can you imagine what they are gonna do to his loved ones? The Bugle? The school he taught at? All of the people at these places are now going to be in jeopardy. Peter Parker gonna wish he still had those clones once people start targeting his friends and family. Or hope Tony lends him some spare suits.

[TheCorpulent1]

On the other hand, it could be argued that he's still lost loved ones while keeping his identity secret, so what's the point?

[3dman27]

That's why I could never be a super"hero" cuz I'm a jerk and would do something like that just to teach 'em a lesson. Even the innocent civilians ned to be taught a lesson, what they did to Johnny was so uncalled for.
what happened to old matchstick?

[Colossal Spoons]

Some angry civilians beat the crap out of him outside a nightclub because they were angry about Stamford :mad:

[3dman27]

Some angry civilians beat the crap out of him outside a nightclub because they were angry about Stamford :mad:
but the ff had nothing to do with the stamford atrocity the warriors did why didnt the story have them beating up former warriors like justice or firestar?

[Tropico]

To accentuate the anti-hero sentiment around the country. It's not just the Warriors, it's at every hero (masked or unmasked).

[Colossal Spoons]

Hence, why the civvies need to be punished. The Avengers, X-Men, GLA(:D), etc all need to just friggin leave for a while. Go to Antarctica or something and let these dumb civvies deal with the villains for a while. They'll change their tune. :mad:

[Bazooka_Boy]

Marvel's Civil War proves that Marvel is looking for new stories. They probably got desperate and thought up of a really crappy story within seconds.

In my opinion they are wasting thousands of money just to produce a story which no one will buy. Same with DC.

Comics used to be alot better. What happened now? *sigh*

[Colossal Spoons]

I bought it :up:

[PWN3R]

Marvel's Civil War proves that Marvel is looking for new stories. They probably got desperate and thought up of a really crappy story within seconds.

In my opinion they are wasting thousands of money just to produce a story which no one will buy. Same with DC.

Comics used to be alot better. What happened now? *sigh*

Did you even read it????