Singer was certainly being literal when he said we'd get... [Archive]

\S/JcDc\S/

03-02-2006, 10:05 PM

Zor-El

03-02-2006, 10:08 PM

I agree :up:

Mentok

03-02-2006, 10:13 PM

Thumbs up to the crew for actually making him look different for each character.

The Punisher

03-02-2006, 10:15 PM

Most definetly and it's great to see.

M.O.Steel

03-02-2006, 10:32 PM

Mentok

03-02-2006, 10:34 PM

Yeah its new... Just a few minutes old. You can find the high res version here.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221809

M.O.Steel

03-02-2006, 10:42 PM

Yeah its new... Just a few minutes old. You can find the high res version here.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221809

cool thanks:up:

Game Player

03-02-2006, 10:42 PM

Make-up and costume design did great on making each personality different

Pickle-El

03-02-2006, 10:47 PM

Great demonstration of the layering, and obvious attention to detail, Jc :up:

\S/JcDc\S/

03-03-2006, 11:54 AM

Great demonstration of the layering, and obvious attention to detail, Jc :up:

:up:

Spider-jedi

03-03-2006, 12:11 PM

clark on the farm is more like the clark in smallville

user123456789

03-03-2006, 02:20 PM

Thumbs up to the crew for actually making him look different for each character.
:up:

\S/JcDc\S/

03-03-2006, 02:36 PM

clark on the farm is more like the clark in smallville

Not sure what you are referencing there :confused:

user123456789

03-03-2006, 02:37 PM

Not sure what you are referencing there :confused:

maybe the tv show?

ROBOCOP CPU001

03-03-2006, 02:46 PM

I find it quite humbleing.

that after all this time..people are finally seeing routh as the right guy for the job,

Well done guys.

The Kid

03-03-2006, 03:03 PM

yep. don't forget the voice too. He's got that superman sound.

Retroman

03-03-2006, 03:11 PM

Nice collage. Routh does seem to embody all three characters (at least in the pics).:up:

Catman

03-03-2006, 03:17 PM

Well, this film already improved on one aspect from the `78 film.

Showtime

03-03-2006, 03:46 PM

I have had faith in Routh from the beginning, more so than the storyline at the beginning, and I am sure he will nail it.

dark_b

03-03-2006, 04:02 PM

I remember Singer mentioning that there is Clark Kent the reporter, Clark on the farm, and Superman. It seems he made a HUGE effort so that each particular characterization stands out on it's own merit. I'm very impressed that his Superman, Clark the reporter, and even Clark on the farm all have their visual difference to match their personality facets.

Clark on farm
http://www.bluetights.net/images/news/brandon_news.jpg

Clark the reporter

Superman
http://www.brandonrouth.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/supermanscan%7E0.jpgno offense but i think you didnt choose the right clark kent(reporter) pic.
i think this is the right one
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_sr-41lrg.jpg

it is amazing how he looks so different when he is the farm boy and the reporter.
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_SD-2540_BlueTights.jpg

i think singer was going into big details. i expect the best of this.

\S/JcDc\S/

03-03-2006, 04:12 PM

no offense but i think you didnt choose the right clark kent(reporter) pic.
i think this is the right one
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_sr-41lrg.jpg

it is amazing how he looks so different when he is the farm boy and the reporter.
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_SD-2540_BlueTights.jpg

i think singer was going into big details. i expect the best of this.

No offense to be taken as that Clark pic was not available (had not yet surfaced online) when I made this thread. That's why I did a search for another Clark pic on BR.com :o

dark_b

03-03-2006, 04:25 PM

No offense to be taken as that Clark pic was not available (had not yet surfaced online) when I made this thread. That's why I did a search for another Clark pic on BR.com :omy mistake. i didnt notice that this thread was opened before the realese. :)
no offense but there are more pics of clark kent :up::)

ontopic. fact is that they made 3 different peopel out of routh. i think the big guy(reeve) can be proud.

MJB

03-03-2006, 04:28 PM

I'm just not sold on Routh. Why didn't they just use Welling.

ROBOCOP CPU001

03-03-2006, 04:30 PM

I'm just not sold on Routh. Why didn't they just use Welling.

because Routh was better.

:o

Super_Ludacris

03-03-2006, 04:34 PM

True indeed

And I like the way he looks like a different person when he's Superman as oppose to Clark

\S/JcDc\S/

03-03-2006, 04:39 PM

my mistake. i didnt notice that this thread was opened before the realese. :)
no offense but there are more pics of clark kent :up::)

ontopic. fact is that they made 3 different peopel out of routh. i think the big guy(reeve) can be proud.

NP. I opened up the discussion about the 3 persona's. Then people scattered into other threads bringing it up instead of just keeping it in this one. Ah well :o

Kane

03-03-2006, 05:18 PM

Brandon rocks.

The Kid

03-03-2006, 06:58 PM

That's what I love about Jesus, oops I mean Routh.

One minute he's that rushmore kid, the next he's the rushmore kid without glasses, and after that, he's in a superman suit. :supes::up:

Super_Ludacris

03-03-2006, 08:02 PM

:( @ Calling Superman Jason Schwartz

Cinemaman

03-04-2006, 12:09 PM

http://www.bluetights.net/images/news/brandon_news.jpg

http://www.brandonrouth.com/gallery/albums/Film/Superman%20Returns/BTS/BTS_090.jpg

http://www.brandonrouth.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/supermanscan%7E0.jpg

Hmmm.... I think Singer want to include all faces of Kal-El in this movie.

So SR will has psychological atmosphere too.

Cool.

Naite22

03-04-2006, 02:26 PM

Holy crap that pic of Clark in the barn researching all of those old newspapers is so bad-ass!!! That image says so much... WHERE DID THIS PIC COME FROM???

Superman \S/

03-04-2006, 03:36 PM

It's part of the new pics that were released on Thurs.

Lead Cenobite

03-04-2006, 07:52 PM

I like the old pics of Routh's Kent over the ones we've gotten recently. He looks more mature I think.

Superman \S/

03-04-2006, 07:55 PM

No way, all the pics of Routh are great. :D

Lead Cenobite

03-04-2006, 08:33 PM

*shrugs* I never said they were bad. I just think the earliest pics of his Clark Kent are better.

zanos

03-04-2006, 09:17 PM

\S/JcDc\S/

03-05-2006, 12:44 AM

Ummm... That was a dumb post. How exactly is it a no brainer? I could easily imagine a director not as keen on details like Singer, simply thinking "Superman/Clark"

Superman \S/

03-05-2006, 01:01 AM

I agree Singer definetly has Superman down. Having all the of his characteristics is simply awesome. And looking at Routh you really can how different he looks. One of the best things i like for SR. You have Kal-el Farm which is who he is, Clark Kent of Metropolis and then the hero Superman. Routh represents all three in such a great way and the pics show it.

Cinemaman

03-05-2006, 04:37 AM

I think Singer's view on Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El is very intersting.

And we could have another director with bad view, like McG, Ratner, Abrams or Burton.

So i like Singer as a director of this film.

Mentok

03-05-2006, 04:42 PM

Showtime

03-05-2006, 05:47 PM

Metropolis_Man

03-05-2006, 06:35 PM

Sometimes I wonder if Welling can even pull of the look of being Welling.

lol, that was a good one. I think Welling is great for the Smallville series but I agree with the member who said that it doesnt seem that he'd be able to pull off all three personalities. I really can't judge though since we've only seen him as Clark.

Il_Siciliano

03-05-2006, 06:55 PM

Personally I think that the Routh in the barn reading the paper is EASILY the best picture we have of him. I think in that pic he looks more Superman than in the one in which he's lifting the Planet globe.
He is perfect in that shot.

\S/JcDc\S/

03-05-2006, 07:11 PM

This is one of the reasons I didnt want Welling in this film. I just dont think he could have pulled off the different look for each character quite as well.

I also really like Singers view on the 3 personas to Clark.
Welling never would have worked for a big screen adaption. His acting already has limited range, and his GQ look adds to the problem. Even with glasses on, he still looks like a model wearing glasses, not Clark Kent the reporter.

\S/JcDc\S/

04-22-2006, 11:13 AM

ROBOCOP CPU001

04-22-2006, 11:15 AM

I know what you mean JC

just as nolan did with Bruce Wayne.

:up:

\S/JcDc\S/

04-22-2006, 11:17 AM

Really the way it looks now...

You have 4 characters being completely fleshed out.

1.Kal-el
2.Clark on the farm
3.Clark in Metropolis
4.---SUPERMAN---

YES!!!! AGAIN...!!!!

\S/JcDc\S/

04-22-2006, 11:27 AM

One more thing I've noticed in regards to the hair color. I believe when wet, hair appears much darker. So... As Clark Kent whether in Metropolis or on the farm... His hair will appear brown as it will be dried. When he is Superman/Kal-el his hair will be more slick or wet, thus creating a much darker tone, possibly appearing more black on film. This will further seperate the characters as appearing as seperate entities.

Mentok

04-22-2006, 11:27 AM

Just wanted to add this pic

http://www.cardsinc.com/images/pop_up/superman/bookmarks_wgh_lrg.jpg

Singer is so cool, he actually changed the hairstyle just slightly for each one. Also you can see with the new Kal-el pics that have surfaced, even that hair looks different from the rest. I think he's doing these little touches that are going to show every aspect of what is Superman. :up:

I can see Clark changing into Superman in a phonebooth...

'Crap, I need a mirror.... And which hair style do I use for Superman again?... CRAP!'

:D

M.O.Steel

04-22-2006, 02:02 PM

Really the way it looks now...

You have 4 characters being completely fleshed out.

1.Kal-el
2.Clark on the farm
3.Clark in Metropolis
4.---SUPERMAN---

YES!!!! AGAIN...!!!!
i think 1 and 2 are the same.

Lead Cenobite

04-22-2006, 02:11 PM

i think 1 and 2 are the same.

Not really. Kal-El would be the Clark that wants to learn more about his Kryptonian heritage and misses Jor-El, while Clark in the barn is the grounded, human Clark who was raised as a farmboy. I don't see how they're the same.

SolidSnakeMGS

04-22-2006, 02:13 PM

Really the way it looks now...

You have 4 characters being completely fleshed out.

1.Kal-el
2.Clark on the farm
3.Clark in Metropolis
4.---SUPERMAN---

YES!!!! AGAIN...!!!!

I think 1 and 4 are the same. So does Singer.

Showtime

04-22-2006, 02:39 PM

I agree, Kal-El and Superman are the same persona.

Metropolis_Man

04-22-2006, 02:57 PM

I agree, Kal-El and Superman are the same persona.

I agree to make it 3. In a row. I think kal-el is Superman, same persona.

Oldguy

04-22-2006, 05:30 PM

There is no "Kal-el".

ROBOCOP CPU001

04-22-2006, 05:33 PM

There is no "Kal-el".

Very true..that is the name his birth parents gave him..

there is only clark Kent and superman.

Oldguy

04-22-2006, 05:48 PM

Very true..that is the name his birth parents gave him..

there is only clark Kent and superman.

Exactly, he'd have to live some part of his life as a normal krytonian boy to truly "be" Kal-el.

ROBOCOP CPU001

04-22-2006, 05:49 PM

Exactly, he'd have to live some part of his life as a normal krytonian boy to truly "be" Kal-el.

:up:

wow i agreed with you.. mark this day down Oldie.

:)

Showtime

04-22-2006, 05:59 PM

I guess you two are right.

Damn. :(

Oldguy

04-22-2006, 06:06 PM

:up:

wow i agreed with you.. mark this day down Oldie.

:)

Oh it's not that rare, is it? lol

I can't wait till the next super-hero movie comes out, when everyone will agree about how fantastic it's being put together.;)

Showtime

04-22-2006, 06:09 PM

I never clicked the link in your Sig Oldguy. That is a great sketch.

Oldguy

04-22-2006, 06:32 PM

I never clicked the link in your Sig Oldguy. That is a great sketch.

Thank you, as Fatboy is fond of mentioning on a regular basis, I'm a layout artist who works in the animation biz.

SolidSnakeMGS

04-22-2006, 06:36 PM

Oldguy

04-22-2006, 07:41 PM

What kind of crap is this about him not being 'Kal-el'?? It's his name given to him by his parents. Just because he isn't on Krypton anymore doesn't mean he doesn't get the right to use his name.

Like Singer said, there are three real personas; Kal-El, Clark Kent on the farm, and Clark Kent in Metropolis.

What kind of crap is this about Singer being the definitive scribe of Superman? Superman is a farmboy from Kansas. That's it. Hulk's the one with MPD.

He's never lived any significant part of his life where society has defined him as Kal-el. There's the rub you see, society defines our identities for us. Heritage isn't identity.

But hey, Showtimes and Robocop got it, so I know Im not insane.

SolidSnakeMGS

04-22-2006, 08:53 PM

What kind of crap is this about Singer being the definitive scribe of Superman? Superman is a farmboy from Kansas. That's it. Hulk's the one with MPD.

And what's this crap that you're the definitive anything on any subject? While I didn't say that Singer was (more of your word-putting), I am certainly inclined to believe his well-put explanation on the subject.

Superman is an alien from Krypton, but that isn't it. He has different personalities and has to act according to the situation. But he certainly is in control at all times.

He's never lived any significant part of his life where society has defined him as Kal-el. There's the rub you see, society defines our identities for us. Heritage isn't identity.

Piddle-paddle hogwash, to put it nicely. Maybe up there where the pills are cheap (and abundant in your case), you're content allowing society to define you, but don't presume others do as well. I certainly do not allow others or this notion of society tell me my identity and I imagine I'm not alone in this thought. I know we're talking about comic books, but it easily carries over to real life.

If society defines a Muslim as a terrorist, is that right, despite a peaceful heritage? No, it isn't. In this case, certainly their heritage has more to do with their identity. It's a strong example, but it is valid.

Even Jor-el makes the statement that Superman "is not one of them" and to take pride in his "special heritage".

But hey, Showtimes and Robocop got it, so I know Im not insane.

Ummmmmkay... :)

Showtime

04-22-2006, 09:07 PM

Thank you, as Fatboy is fond of mentioning on a regular basis, I'm a layout artist who works in the animation biz.

I never picked up on that. Very nice. :up:

Showtime

04-22-2006, 09:12 PM

If you think about it Kal-El and Superman are one in the same.

That's if you believe that Clark is the disguise, which I do.

skruloos

04-22-2006, 10:34 PM

He's never lived any significant part of his life where society has defined him as Kal-el. There's the rub you see, society defines our identities for us. Heritage isn't identity.
That's only true to a point. Sure, socialization is a big part of forming our identities but so is our own investigation into our ancestry. I think it's entirely possible for children of immigrants to grow up in one culture and then in the process of maturing, expose themselves to the history and culture of their parent's in any way, shape, or form. Heritage IS a large part of our identity as long as you understand the culture of that heritage. It becomes part of your cultural identity.

Just as different people will encounter Eastern philosophy and decide to educate themselves on Taoism and accept Taoist idealogies. They do not necessarily have to be exposed to a Taoist society but they can learn about it and accept the culture of it.

As far as it applies to Superman, it can be assumed that the systems in the Fortress has educated Clark on Kryptonian culture and history. Depending on Clark's acceptance of those ideologies, he could adopt Kryptonian culture into his identity.

SolidSnakeMGS

04-22-2006, 10:59 PM

If you think about it Kal-El and Superman are one in the same.

That's if you believe that Clark is the disguise, which I do.

Yes, I do :up: and I think there are two facets to Clark as I mentioned.

Showtime

04-22-2006, 11:11 PM

I agree there are two facet's of Clark as well, and Singer is going to expose that difference.

Oldguy

04-23-2006, 07:00 AM

That's only true to a point. Sure, socialization is a big part of forming our identities but so is our own investigation into our ancestry. I think it's entirely possible for children of immigrants to grow up in one culture and then in the process of maturing, expose themselves to the history and culture of their parent's in any way, shape, or form. Heritage IS a large part of our identity as long as you understand the culture of that heritage. It becomes part of your cultural identity.

Just as different people will encounter Eastern philosophy and decide to educate themselves on Taoism and accept Taoist idealogies. They do not necessarily have to be exposed to a Taoist society but they can learn about it and accept the culture of it.

As far as it applies to Superman, it can be assumed that the systems in the Fortress has educated Clark on Kryptonian culture and history. Depending on Clark's acceptance of those ideologies, he could adopt Kryptonian culture into his identity.

Once again, you confuse the issue. It's not about adopting a philosophy for spiritual guidence, it's personal identity. Clark Kent grew up in Kansas for some 12 years never thinking he was anything other than Clark Kent. He referred to himself as CK, and his environment reinforced this.

In order for Kal-el to truly exist he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el.

Kal-el is nothing more than a footnote to a life that can never be. Maybe if you want to sell flowers in the airport, fine. But Superman isn't so flaky that he'd manufacture a distinct personality so he could get in touch with his dead alien side.

Interest in one's original cultural roots is not the basis for creating a new persona, that's demented. I mean literally, that would be dementia at work.

Oldguy

04-23-2006, 07:16 AM

...Superman is an alien from Krypton, but that isn't it. He has different personalities and has to act according to the situation. But he certainly is in control at all times.

But for how long? Who will save us from MoodRingman!!

SolidSnakeMGS

04-23-2006, 11:20 AM

But for how long? Who will save us from MoodRingman!!

MoodRingman is the good guy. It's the evil Dr.Society we need to fear. His ability to steal your identity and replace it with whatever he chooses will spell certain doom for us all! No one nor their heritage or pride is save from his judgmental clutches!

Lone

04-23-2006, 11:43 AM

Exactly, he'd have to live some part of his life as a normal krytonian boy to truly "be" Kal-el.

According to Donner continuity, the 12yr tutelage would certainly qualify as living some part of his life as Kal-El.

Retroman

04-23-2006, 12:03 PM

Just wanted to add this pic

http://www.cardsinc.com/images/pop_up/superman/bookmarks_wgh_lrg.jpg

Singer is so cool, he actually changed the hairstyle just slightly for each one. Also you can see with the new Kal-el pics that have surfaced, even that hair looks different from the rest. I think he's doing these little touches that are going to show every aspect of what is Superman. :up:

YES!!!!!!!

http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/365045.1020.A.jpg
Good points JC. He really does looks like 3 different people:up:

I can see Clark changing into Superman in a phonebooth...

'Crap, I need a mirror.... And which hair style do I use for Superman again?... CRAP!'

:D
lol:D

Showtime

04-23-2006, 12:13 PM

I like the more floppy hairstyle that Routh has as Clark.

Super_Ludacris

04-23-2006, 12:30 PM

He uses nice conditioner lol

skruloos

04-23-2006, 02:49 PM

Once again, you confuse the issue. It's not about adopting a philosophy for spiritual guidence, it's personal identity. Clark Kent grew up in Kansas for some 12 years never thinking he was anything other than Clark Kent. He referred to himself as CK, and his environment reinforced this.

In order for Kal-el to truly exist he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el.

Kal-el is nothing more than a footnote to a life that can never be. Maybe if you want to sell flowers in the airport, fine. But Superman isn't so flaky that he'd manufacture a distinct personality so he could get in touch with his dead alien side.

Interest in one's original cultural roots is not the basis for creating a new persona, that's demented. I mean literally, that would be dementia at work.
No it wouldn't. It's about developing a cultural identity. It's about consciously learning about your roots and history and adopting it into your own. How is it demented? I take it you're not the child of first generation immigrants.

I am. And I know many others who are. I know many who are children of third or fourth generation immigrants who want to gain a better grasp of their cultural heritage so that it may become part of their identity. There is great pride to be found in a cultural identity. I've had friends and acquaintances make pilgrimages to Ireland, Scotland, Israel, Japan, Brazil, Vietnam, and China and study their history so that they may get to know their cultural heritage, adopt it, and celebrate it. I've had a couple friends born of Japanese ancestry in Hawaii who after learning about his family's culture more also adopted a Japanese name. They are proud of their ancestral background and culture and have embraced it. They are still US American born and raised but they have also come to learn about their heritage and have adopted that culture. Why is that demented?

BareKnucklez

04-23-2006, 03:20 PM

I find it quite humbleing.

that after all this time..people are finally seeing routh as the right guy for the job,

Well done guys.

lol dont speak for us all... Im still not 100% sold on him.
Dude still looks WAY to young, and thin for the role... But only time will tell if he was indeed right for the job.

ROBOCOP CPU001

04-23-2006, 03:24 PM

lol dont speak for us all... Im still not 100% sold on him.
Dude still looks WAY to young, and thin for the role... But only time will tell if he was indeed right for the job.

Well i don't think i spoke for all of you..

:o

Metropolis_Man

04-23-2006, 03:25 PM

He uses nice conditioner lol

That he does. I tried getting my hair that thin and smooth, but it always ends up looking like the ocean.

Oldguy

04-23-2006, 05:00 PM

No it wouldn't. It's about developing a cultural identity. It's about consciously learning about your roots and history and adopting it into your own. How is it demented? I take it you're not the child of first generation immigrants.

I am. And I know many others who are. I know many who are children of third or fourth generation immigrants who want to gain a better grasp of their cultural heritage so that it may become part of their identity. There is great pride to be found in a cultural identity. I've had friends and acquaintances make pilgrimages to Ireland, Scotland, Israel, Japan, Brazil, Vietnam, and China and study their history so that they may get to know their cultural heritage, adopt it, and celebrate it. I've had a couple friends born of Japanese ancestry in Hawaii who after learning about his family's culture more also adopted a Japanese name. They are proud of their ancestral background and culture and have embraced it. They are still US American born and raised but they have also come to learn about their heritage and have adopted that culture. Why is that demented?

Tell me when your friends got back, did they change their names and adopt new identities? Maybe I was a bit harsh, it's not demented, flaky perhaps, but not demented.

Researching ones, and subsequently adopting cultural heritage isn't flaky. Only when one creates "new" identities out of it, do the men in white coats get antsy. But your country embraces flake now, I know how much you all value your infinite personal expression.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.

Oldguy

04-23-2006, 05:01 PM

He uses nice conditioner lol

Must....
turn away....
from avatar....
so pretty.....

Fatboy Roberts

04-23-2006, 05:46 PM

But your country embraces flake now, I know how much you all value your infinite personal expression.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.

You always gotta throw that one last knife in there at the end, don'tcha ;) As much as it's unneccessary--it's also pretty astute. So I can't really clown too much, but still, you made your point without tacking that on the end. But you're all about the spices and garnish on the meal. :)

So, the difference between what you're describing and the Superman Mythos as it's being played out in this movie is that Superman isn't ADOPTING a new identity out of thin air based on a misguided need to belong. It's not a new identity to him. It's his identity being presented by his father. He spent 12 years in some sort of weird pan-dimensional coma thing as his father filled him in on who he was. So, as someone in the thread has already pointed out, that fulfills your "he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el." requirement.

He knows he's Kal-el, and I'm pretty sure that in this movie, it's what he thinks of himself as. I'm pretty sure that's what he thought of himself as in Superman I and II as well. Superman was never HIS name for himself. Kal-El would be. As would be clark.

I don't think, for Superman, it was so much a conscious choice as it was a reconciliation between his two upbringings. He's accepting both at the same time as opposed to denying one for the other, which is more what you're describing.

skruloos

04-23-2006, 07:37 PM

Tell me when your friends got back, did they change their names and adopt new identities?
Adopt new identities? Not necessarily. However they did incorporate their new found cultural knowledge into their identity. One in particular, Mike, adopted a Japanese name, Yukiyushi, to celebrate his heritage.

Researching ones, and subsequently adopting cultural heritage isn't flaky. Only when one creates "new" identities out of it, do the men in white coats get antsy. You make it seem like identities are static things. You also make it seem like these people are completely abondoning the identities they had grown up with. That is not so. They are merely expanding their identity to include their cultural heritage.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.
Hey...if anyone has read my posts, they'd know that I don't think the US is the model society.

Hunter Rider

04-24-2006, 04:05 PM

Must have missed this thread before,It is very true that the Reporter Clark and Farm Clark have a different presence to them but i haven't seen enough to say there is many differences between Superman and Farm Clark as both have the brooding vibe going on in look and presence

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 04:17 PM

Adopt new identities? Not necessarily. However they did incorporate their new found cultural knowledge into their identity. One in particular, Mike, adopted a Japanese name, Yukiyushi, to celebrate his heritage.

You make it seem like identities are static things. You also make it seem like these people are completely abondoning the identities they had grown up with. That is not so. They are merely expanding their identity to include their cultural heritage.

Hey...if anyone has read my posts, they'd know that I don't think the US is the model society.

Ya yur right, I apologize for misrepresenting you. Identities aren't static, they just aren't or at least shouldn't be a conscious desicion.

Even in your example, your japanese friend has changes his name to embrace his cultural heritage. At one time his family abandoned it to ease assimilation into western culture. So now he's Yukiyushi instead of Mike. His identity hasn't changed tho has it? I mean his title changed, his name, but he's not a different personality is he? His identity is still the same, his values, beliefs and his manner didn't change. Did he adopt japanese nationalism? The kind that still promotes segregation in Japan? The only "values" he's going to adopt from Japan are ones that reinforce the ones he's already established here in NA. Despite his cultural reawakening, he's not going to adopt anything that conflicts with his original identity.

In this regard, Yukiyushi will always be Mike.

I'm all for Superman exploring his cultural heritage, but for him to value it above his Kansas heritage, is unnatural. To make Kal-el the default personality and CK the disguise, to choose what could have been over what was, is a betrayal to the Kent's love and frankly an insult to the entire human race. It's a gross misrepresentation of the character, as he's been depicted in the source material for the last 20+ years, and subsequently still exists after the latest continuity shuffle. Infinite Crisis is over and Clark Kent is who he is, and Superman is what he can dew.

Unless Morrison has his way....

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 04:28 PM

You always gotta throw that one last knife in there at the end, don'tcha ;) As much as it's unneccessary--it's also pretty astute. So I can't really clown too much, but still, you made your point without tacking that on the end. But you're all about the spices and garnish on the meal. :)

Just like how, you are all about commentary rather than participation?

So, the difference between what you're describing and the Superman Mythos as it's being played out in this movie is that Superman isn't ADOPTING a new identity out of thin air based on a misguided need to belong. It's not a new identity to him. It's his identity being presented by his father. He spent 12 years in some sort of weird pan-dimensional coma thing as his father filled him in on who he was. So, as someone in the thread has already pointed out, that fulfills your "he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el." requirement.

He knows he's Kal-el, and I'm pretty sure that in this movie, it's what he thinks of himself as. I'm pretty sure that's what he thought of himself as in Superman I and II as well. Superman was never HIS name for himself. Kal-El would be. As would be clark.

I don't think, for Superman, it was so much a conscious choice as it was a reconciliation between his two upbringings. He's accepting both at the same time as opposed to denying one for the other, which is more what you're describing.

Ah see the difference being, I don't value Donner's movie as the definitive Superman. It's at least one generation removed from the source material. Not to mention that it's representitive of pre-crisis Superman. Superman as he is now, is a farm boy from Kansas. He didn't just wipe his harddrive when he finds out about his kryptonian heritage like he did when Pa-el fed him electric kool-aid when he re-neducated him in the fortress for 12 years.

We are all the products of our upbringing. We may choose to adopt culture, in an effort to express our style, but our values, whether they be of tolerance or hate or somewhere in between were decided for us.

Fatboy Roberts

04-24-2006, 04:32 PM

Just like how, you are all about commentary rather than participation?

Aren't you fond of overstatement ;) Besides which, how is commentary NOT participation on a messageboard anyway? :)

And if we're discussing this movie, and this movie's character, which is built off the last two movie's character, it kneecaps your argument if you're just going to throw out the movies. No one here is talking "The definitive Superman" we're talking the one in Superman Returns and his characterization. You're still talking either/or, I'm saying with Superman in this movie--it seems to be accepting both at the same time and moving from there. he's not denying one for the other, ("wiping harddrives") which is what you're arguing against. If that was happening in the movies, you'd have something. But it appears they're not, but rather that he's reconciled one with the other--so you don't :)

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 04:38 PM

Aren't you fond of overstatement ;) Besides which, how is commentary NOT participation on a messageboard anyway? :)

If you don't already get it, why would I waste time explaining it to you?

And if we're discussing this movie, and this movie's character, which is built off the last two movie's character, it kneecaps your argument if you're just going to throw out the movies. No one here is talking "The definitive Superman" we're talking the one in Superman Returns and his characterization. You're still talking either/or, I'm saying with Superman in this movie--it seems to be accepting both at the same time and moving from there. he's not denying one for the other, ("wiping harddrives") which is what you're arguing against. If that was happening in the movies, you'd have something. But it appears they're not, but rather that he's reconciled one with the other--so you don't :)

So it's accurate characterization because it's an elseworld's Superman story vaguley tied to a previous elseworld's storyline? Why didn't you just say so?

skruloos

04-24-2006, 04:43 PM

Ya yur right, I apologize for misrepresenting you. Identities aren't static, they just aren't or at least shouldn't be a conscious desicion.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Wouldn't educating yourself be a conscious decision to augment your identity?

Even in your example, your japanese friend has changes his name to embrace his cultural heritage. At one time his family abandoned it to ease assimilation into western culture. So now he's Yukiyushi instead of Mike. His identity hasn't changed tho has it? I mean his title changed, his name, but he's not a different personality is he? His identity is still the same, his values, beliefs and his manner didn't change. Did he adopt japanese nationalism? The kind that still promotes segregation in Japan? The only "values" he's going to adopt from Japan are ones that reinforce the ones he's already established here in NA. Despite his cultural reawakening, he's not going to adopt anything that conflicts with his original identity.
He didn't adopt nationalism but he did adopt Japanese spirituality. And he didn't abandon his American name. He merely added Yukiyushi to his name so that it became his middle name. I think you're trying to make this a black and white issue when it isn't. He isn't choosing to BE Japanese over being American . He is augmenting his American identity with his heritage and understanding of Japanese culture.

In this regard, Yukiyushi will always be Mike.
Yes. And Clark will always be Kal-El and Kal-El will always be Clark. Which is why a few people, myself included, refer to Clark in Smallville and Superman as Clark/Kal-El and the glasses wearing Clark who works at the Daily Planet, Metropolis Clark. He's not an entirely different identity. He is merely putting forth different facets of his identity.

Just as Mike is very aware of his mannerisms when he is in Japan (suppressing his American tendency to be loud and outspoken), Metropolis Clark suppresses his powers and is aware at all times to carry himself differently. But when he is in Smallville with his parents, he can be totally relaxed. He is one with his Kryptonian powers, which makes him Kal-El because even if he didn't have knowledge of his Kryptonian heritage he does have the biology, and Clark because of the values that were instilled in him by his human parents.

I'm all for Superman exploring his cultural heritage, but for him to value it above his Kansas heritage, is unnatural.
I have certainly not argued that he values it above his Kansas heritage. I put them equal to each other.

To make Kal-el the default personality and CK the disguise, to choose what could have been over what was, is a betrayal to the Kent's love and frankly an insult to the entire human race.
I think the problem here is in semantics. When I say CK is the disguise, I don't mean the Clark that was raised by the Kents, the one who is able to lift up tractors for his dad or race through cornfields. I mean the Clark who goes off to Metropolis, puts on glasses, slouches and is making a conscious decision to hide his powers.

Fatboy Roberts

04-24-2006, 04:45 PM

So it's accurate characterization

For this movie, yes. If you don't already get that, why would I waste time explaining it to you? ;)

What did you think you were arguing, silly old man?

skruloos

04-24-2006, 04:49 PM

We are all the products of our upbringing. We may choose to adopt culture, in an effort to express our style, but our values, whether they be of tolerance or hate or somewhere in between were decided for us.
I don't think that's necessarily true but it speaks volumes about where you stand on an argument on the death penalty.

In your ideology, as I understand it, there is no hope for rehabilitation. That a person who was once a gangster or part of the KKK could never consciously choose to educate themselves further to better themselves and distance themselves from hate groups. Would this be accurate?

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 07:34 PM

According to Donner continuity, the 12yr tutelage would certainly qualify as living some part of his life as Kal-El.

That's an excellent point. In Donner's continuity, Jor-el excorsizes all human vestiges from Superman, well almost all of them. In the end he decides to be selfish and alter human history.

In the comics, the Kents taught Clark, to hide his great strength from people or they will fear him. To remain vigil, for he must use it to assist humanity. Clark Kent created Superman to operate freely. But what does Shuster know about Superman anyways?

Yes Donner did 'schizm Superman in 78, much to my dismay even as a young boy. (Where'd Superboy go? The inner Youngguy sobs) but you're right, as Singer is following an elseworld's continuity, I can't specifically fault him as "not getting it".

SuperDaniel

04-24-2006, 07:41 PM

^^^In the Donner movie, the Kent`s lesson for value of life, being put here for a reason, was more important than his kryptonian lessons. So, yes, in Superman the movie, the way i see it, Superman rejects his kryptonian/better than humans side to alter course of history and save Lois and became more human in the process because of love, reafirming that Superman is the most human alien.

Anyway, he didn`t spend 12 years in the fortress learning from Jor-el. That was just a metaphor. Jor-el speech, the way i see it, was a metaphor of the period of growing and maturing we all pass. The period of everyone`s life between 18 and 30 years old. Its not that he was brainwashed for 12 years in the fortress. Thats stupid, in my opinion.

Cmill216

04-24-2006, 07:45 PM

It's cool to see they actually payed to attention to the look of the different "characters". Singer loves Superman, and you can see that in his attention to detail here alone.

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 08:00 PM

I don't think that's necessarily true but it speaks volumes about where you stand on an argument on the death penalty.

In your ideology, as I understand it, there is no hope for rehabilitation. That a person who was once a gangster or part of the KKK could never consciously choose to educate themselves further to better themselves and distance themselves from hate groups. Would this be accurate?

You want a taste of my ideology? Gangsters should never be convicted of murdering other gangsters. In your country, most gang members in jail for murder, killed some PoS what needed killing anyways. In my ideology, murder isn't "murder" unless an innocent has died. Do I believe in capital punishment for murder 2 or manslaughter? Certainly not. To err is human, to forgive divine.

Who am I in favour of going from court house to smoke house, no waiting, no appeals? Guys like Clifford Olsen. He's my national treasure. You see in the late 70's and early 80's, Cliff was a busy boy. Look him up.
Every year he costs the taxpayers a lot of money to keep alive. Why? He will never be allowed back into gen pop inside of prison let alone society. so what's the point of keeping him alive? Ideological fantasy?

C. Lee, it ain't my fault, he started this wild cap punish debate.

Oldguy

04-24-2006, 08:04 PM

I don't think that's necessarily true. Wouldn't educating yourself be a conscious decision to augment your identity?

I'm glad we agree augmentation isn't alteration.

SolidSnakeMGS

04-24-2006, 08:20 PM

So when something is enlarged or expanded, it isn't changed? Ummm...ok.

skruloos

04-24-2006, 08:28 PM

You want a taste of my ideology? Gangsters should never be convicted of murdering other gangsters. In your country, most gang members in jail for murder, killed some PoS what needed killing anyways. In my ideology, murder isn't "murder" unless an innocent has died. Do I believe in capital punishment for murder 2 or manslaughter? Certainly not. To err is human, to forgive divine.
That still doesn't address my main point though. Do you believe in rehabilitation? If someone's identity and values were decided for us, that would imply that rehabilitation and personal change is not possible.