The Burton Films Batman and Batman Returns.

[Morgoth]

This thread is to celebrate the originals. Sure some things were changed and it wasn't as faithful to the comic book as Batman Begins but BB wasn't 100% faithful either.

There's a certain spirit of Batman that was captured beautifully in the Burton movies. A spirit that is missing in "Begins". I like BB alot but Burton's movies are something special.

When I was ten years old I went to the theater every weekend to see Batman. I loved it. I knew the Joker didn't kill Bruce's parents but I still liked it.

I really didn't want the Joker to die. All I know is when that them started, everytime I saw it I went nuts!

I still get chills when that classic Batman theme begins, starting off slowly and grows until, Ta Da!, BATMAN appears and it goes wild from there.

I remember the first time I saw the Bat logo circling I was trying to figure out what it was, I thought it was going to be the Bat Cave. And then when it was revealed to be the Bat logo I was like, Oh Cool!

I was hooked from the minute Batman drops slowly behind the two thugs that just mugged that poor couple, cape spread into Bat wings, so cool, the sound of the gravel crunching beneath the Dark Knight's boots as the two crooks look up startled as they look upon the dark avenger, this beastly spectre before them.

I freaked when I saw the Batarang, I just loved seeing it. It's always been my favorite of Bat weapons.

Then he beat the crap outta' them, and then came the famous line:" I want you to do me a favor, I want you to tell all your friends about me." "What are you?!" "I'm Batman."

When Batman Returns came out it was June 19th, it was the last day of school, I just got home checked the times in the paper then called my friend and his Mom took us to the theater.

We waited out side for a bit, after waiting awhile an usher came out saying that there was a problem with the projector and it would be fixed soon. The line was so long, from the ticket booth to the middle of the parking lot. We got there early enough to get a good spot in line. Good thing the last day of school was only an hour long.

I loved Batman Returns. I also became a Christopher Walken fan because of that movie. It was the first time I'd seen him in anything. I made sure to watch everytime he was on Saturday Night Live after seeing BR and his Continental sketches.

But back to BatmanReturns. I was happy to see the Batarang again, even moreso, because it looked like the comics' version this time, I liked the one from Batman but this one was better, plus it had a navigational system this time, not that I felt he needed it but still cool.

My friend and I thought the Penguin had a lot of good lines, one of our faves was, "Get in the Duck."

I have a goofy sense of humor, I've always had it, so I loved the dark humor that was in BR.

Such a beautiful scene when Batman spreads his cape into Batwings that was a hanglider as he flew among the Bats.

I couldn't wait for more, so sad Tim didn't return.

[captain_jimbo]

I couldn't agree with you more, I love Tim Burton's films, especially his Batman films. I love the whole scene on the roof with the two muggers, I love the costumes, the props, the scenery and Michael Keaton was the best Batman ever, and will never be beaten.

[Silver Sable]

I liked how Burton did Gotham city :up:

[Ronny Shade]

I thought Burton's Gotham was a little too cartoony, but it matched with the films.

[Morgoth]

I couldn't agree with you more, I love Tim Burton's films, especially his Batman films. I love the whole scene on the roof with the two muggers, I love the costumes, the props, the scenery and Michael Keaton was the best Batman ever, and will never be beaten.Keaton will never be Beaten. That should be your signature. lol. :) Such good movies. I had to have spent a fortune on tickets in the summer of 89.:up:

[Ronny Shade]

That should be your signature. lol. :)
I don't know, I like the Superman IV quote

[Morgoth]

I liked how Burton did Gotham city :up:Yeah, it was dark and gothic, it was just right.

It got a bit more style to it in "Returns", still cool. But I remember when I first saw Returns, I felt Gotham didn't feel as big and open as it did in Batman. But I still love it.

I liked that the Bat suit got a bit of a make over to make it more form fitting, Burton wanted it to look like an Oscar, more sleek.

I just like the muscle look better on the suit compared to the armor look on the chest and abs, but once again I still like it, I just liked the natural look better.

I was happy when The Penguin had a scene where he wore his top hat and monicle, I wish they could've had more of that instead of him in his long underwear all the time.

I thought the Catwoman costume was perfect and Michelle had such a great voice for it. Sexy and sultry, just right. At times her voice sounded like a purr then a growl.

[Bat Attack]

The Burton movies will always be my favorite Batman movies, because I have so many memories of watching them when I was younger. :up: Couldn't love them more.

[Kevin Roegele]

Burton's Batman movies were completely faithful to Burton's Batman. Which was what he was hired to create.

[Dr. Fate]

I liked Burton's Batman films, but I do not agree with Burton that big, muscular, square jawed men do not need the element of surprise. Even Arnold Scwharzenegger needed the element of surprise.

[co2]

I rented Batman Returns yesterday. When all of the batman DVDs were released last year, I only picked up Begins and the original 89. 89 is good but it feels really dated at some times. It didn't age too well. Honestly I have watched the extra features much more than the film and enjoy them immensely, so it was a good purchase.
Since I didn't purchase the others, I thought I would at least rent Returns to check out the features...plus I hadn't seen the film in some time.
I'm glad I didn't purchase it. It may be the best of the sequels, but it's just too Tim Burton for me. People rave about how those films were a return to the roots of the comic rather than the campy TV show, but honestly..I still see a heavy influence of the TV show in the camp of all four of the original films.
The one element of that film that makes it worth watching is Michelle Pfeifer as Catwoman. I would put her on Nicholson's level as far as a bat-villian performance. Her character went through quite a transformation which was fun to watch. She did a great job capturing that character. Plus, she looked hot.
It was nice to go back and watch it again but it also reassured me that I did the right thing with only buying the 2 films that I did. Begins is without a doubt, the best IMO.

[Dr. Fate]

The one element of that film that makes it worth watching is Michelle Pfeifer as Catwoman. I would put her on Nicholson's level as far as a bat-villian performance. Her character went through quite a transformation which was fun to watch. She did a great job capturing that character. Plus, she looked hot.
Michelle Pfeiffer wearing all that leahter is the only reason to buy the movie. ;)

[Morgoth]

I liked Burton's Batman films, but I do not agree with Burton that big, muscular, square jawed men do not need the element of surprise. Even Arnold Scwharzenegger needed the element of surprise.I don't like how he said you would get laughs if you put a serious actor in the suit, that doesn't make sense, he's a serious character, and people know he looks a certain way, so they wouldn't laugh if say Mel Gibson got the part, they'd know he's a good looking big guy, you know, they wouldn't laugh. That's just Tim's excuse to do it his way and get his angle on how the suit is what makes him go from normal guy to Dark Knight. Still love his Bat-films, just not what he said about that.

Noone laughed at Bale, everyone loves seeing someone physically fit and someone with the right look. Keaton looked good as Bruce he had that dark look, and he is my fave Batman, he had the best voice and it worked for Tim's angle, but it is nice to see someone that looks more like the comics.

Although Keaton does look like the comics somewhat, his eyes and eye brows really do it for him.

Also, Micheal Keaton has the best Batman voice, Bale really needs to work on it.

[Bruce_Wayne29]

Keaton will never be Beaten. That should be your signature. lol. :) Such good movies. I had to have spent a fortune on tickets in the summer of 89.:up:

And I would add a fortune in merchandise as well. I mean the bat-logo was everywhere. I bought everything I could get my hands on !

[Morgoth]

And I would add a fortune in merchandise as well. I mean the bat-logo was everywhere. I bought everything I could get my hands on !Oh yeah, I had all the action figures, Batman with Bat-rope in his belt, Joker with actual squirting flower, and Bob with his knife and gun.

Had the vehicles too, I should just say I had the whole movie toy collection.

Posters, an "Applause" Batman doll, that was about the sixe of my fore arm, a small "applause" Batman hanging on a bat-rope attached to a suction cup with the bat-logo on it, so it was like the Bat-sygnal.

Also had the soundtrack and the score. Hate the songs but just got it. Love the score though, I need to get it on cd now though.

[Dr. Fate]

I don't like how he said you would get laughs if you put a serious actor in the suit, that doesn't make sense, he's a serious character, and people know he looks a certain way, so they wouldn't laugh if say Mel Gibson got the part, they'd know he's a good looking big guy, you know, they wouldn't laugh. That's just Tim's excuse to do it his way and get his angle on how the suit is what makes him go from normal guy to Dark Knight. Still love his Bat-films, just not what he said about that.

Noone laughed at Bale, everyone loves seeing someone physically fit and someone with the right look. Keaton looked good as Bruce he had that dark look, and he is my fave Batman, he had the best voice and it worked for Tim's angle, but it is nice to see someone that looks more like the comics.
Exactly.

[El Payaso]

Yes. Never listen to what a director has to say about his own movies. If you want to see what he really has to say, watch the movie.

[The Kid]

I want to see all my old friends come back and discuss how great these movies were rather than say how much Begins is better, bla bla bla all the time. Beaten. Horse.

I truly was in awe while watching 89. It was like nothing I'd ever seen. really. It had perfect music complementing great performances from Keaton and Nicholson which completely trapped me in this fantasy world. It set the standard for how batman could work in a serious way, not like Adam west did it. I think those are good words to describe it. And bats, lots of bats.

Say what you want, but Begins is everything the old movies were minus the bad stuff. I know that stung a few of you to read that, but I honestly think that way and that's what I'm going to keep thinking forever.

It's a bit dated now, but that was inevitable. The movie's still entertaining; It's all very good.

[Two-Face]

Sure I love Burton Batman movies but Begins is just too good.

[Proximo]

Seriously, why does everyone bring up the other bat movies when its just a Burton batman movie thread?

B'89 Still give me goose bumps everytime i watch it, Love it.
Batman Returns lose a little of that feeling.. mainly because WB let Burton do whatever he wanted whit it, A burton movie.

[Joker]

Seriously, why does everyone bring up the other bat movies when its just a Burton batman movie thread?


Insecurity or intimidation.Take your pick ;)

[co2]

Well, no. I think it is simply that after seeing Begins, you don't look at the originals the same way, so it has to come up, right?
Personally, I still like the first film. Nothing has changed that.

[co2]

Say what you want, but Begins is everything the old movies were minus the bad stuff. I know that stung a few of you to read that, but I honestly think that way and that's what I'm going to keep thinking forever.


haha. that is the funniest quote of the day. I'm not exactly sure how that supports your case. Weren't you championing the Burton films? And I don't think that stings anyone.

[SHADOWBAT69]

Morgoth, i understand completely what you are saying. Where you use the term "spirit" i always refer to it as "atmosphere". The Burton movie, 89 especially, had this. Im an 89 whore, always will be. This will always be my favorite Batman movie. And when people refer to 89 as being "dated", i disagree with that. Look at the original King Kong, do people call that "dated"? Theres only one term that comes to mind. Classic.

[The Kid]

haha. that is the funniest quote of the day. I'm not exactly sure how that supports your case. Weren't you championing the Burton films? And I don't think that stings anyone.

i don't know if you were here then, but there were numerous threads bashing the burton films in an effort to show how superior Begins was. I can't remember my case really. All I know is that Begins, to me, is all four batflicks, but a collection of the best parts.And there's nothing wrong with that. But Saying that sort of thing back then had a few calling for a hanging, I tell you. They wanted nothing in begins to be linked to the old films. I'm not so sure of it now though. maybe everybody moved on and got lives.

[Morgoth]

I want to see all my old friends come back and discuss how great these movies were rather than say how much Begins is better, bla bla bla all the time. Beaten. Horse.

I truly was in awe while watching 89. It was like nothing I'd ever seen. really. It had perfect music complementing great performances from Keaton and Nicholson which completely trapped me in this fantasy world. It set the standard for how batman could work in a serious way, not like Adam west did it. I think those are good words to describe it. And bats, lots of bats.

Say what you want, but Begins is everything the old movies were minus the bad stuff. I know that stung a few of you to read that, but I honestly think that way and that's what I'm going to keep thinking forever.

It's a bit dated now, but that was inevitable. The movie's still entertaining; It's all very good.The second Begins came out, everyone jumped on the bandwagon forgetting the experience and fun of the first two movies, especially the sensation of one.

BB is like the first without the bad stuff in a way.

It's not exactly 100% faithful to the comics but it is moreso than the others, but the originals are great and have to be taken with a grain of salt.

At least there's a feeling of fantasy to the Burton movies, well as far into fantasy for a hero with no powers but, Batman, even though not having powers still lives in a comic world that's just a bit to the left of reality. He has some villians that are monsters or have powers etc., and at least they didn't do the whole reality thing with Batman like they've done with movies that had no place being stuck in too realistic a world like X-men.

With the X-men those are big epic stories with elaborate costumes and so on and the films missed all of that, and they are really missing alot of the soul of the X-men because Singer didn't get it and didn't care.

For a time Burton did care and, they got the soul of Batman in the movies.

The Burton movies are the best of certain eras of Batman.

Micheal Uslan said each movie was like a different decade in Batman, to him 89 was like the 80's and 70's, Returns was the 90's, and Forever was the fifties, that era when you'd see Batman fighting on top of giant pianos. I won't mention Batman and Robin in this thread.

[Morgoth]

Morgoth, i understand completely what you are saying. Where you use the term "spirit" i always refer to it as "atmosphere". The Burton movie, 89 especially, had this. Im an 89 whore, always will be. This will always be my favorite Batman movie. And when people refer to 89 as being "dated", i disagree with that. Look at the original King Kong, do people call that "dated"? Theres only one term that comes to mind. Classic.I'm so glad you know what I mean by spirit. It's that feeling that surrounds Batman, even when I read the comics that 89 theme still comes into my mind, the Elfmann score is Batman, that is his music, it is just right. That new score just isn't it, it's very good but not as good as the original.

And no it's not dated, I haven't ever gotten that feeling from that or thought that.

The only people that say that are kids that just don't know what they're talking about or haven't really grown up with it and missed that experience of 89.

That movie was made the way it was so it couldn't be dated, that sort of forties look, Burton said it himself, and that is true, it isn't dated. The Prince music still sucks but, oh well.

There are alot of kids on here that only know Begins, and they really don't know what they're talking about. I can see really liking BB for being faithful to the comics but, don't sit and talk about it like it's the only Bat movie ever made.

They don't know what the Summer of 89 was like.

[Morgoth]

Seriously, why does everyone bring up the other bat movies when its just a Burton batman movie thread?

B'89 Still give me goose bumps everytime i watch it, Love it.
Batman Returns lose a little of that feeling.. mainly because WB let Burton do whatever he wanted whit it, A burton movie.The sad thing about that whole thing of WB letting Burton do whatever he wanted is the fact that they told him to do whatever he wanted and do Returns as more of a Burton movie just to get him back to do the sequel and then, when he did what they said, they didn't like and didn't want him back.

So it's bassically, do this it's okay, well you did it you shouldn't have, we don't like it, I know it's exactly what we said to do but, we don't like it, so leave.

Buncha' crap. Stupid WB.

I don't care what anyone says, Returns is a darn good Batman movie, I don't see it being too dark, especially when it's Batman the DARK knight. That Gothic feeling was perfect, heck even the city's name screams Gothic.

It just got a little creepy with the Penguin but, everytime I saw that movie in theaters there were never any kids freaking out and running out etc. like some execs have said. Man, how bad do they wanna' bash they're own movie. Just a load of garbage. Everyone loved that movie when I saw it at the movies.

[Dr. Fate]

The sad truth is that no movie is 100% faithful to its source. Can you guess at just how many differences there are exactly between the Bond novels and their film counterparts?

Or take the first Superman film for example, and the liberty of playing Clark Kent as a bumbling nerd, despite the fact that the comics never portrayed him as such, and neither did the serials, TV series or Max Fleischer cartoons.

The Hellboy film created a romance between Hellboy and Liz Sherman that didn't exist in the comics.

And the liberties of the X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four films speak for themselves.

[Morgoth]

The sad truth is that no movie is 100% faithful to its source. Can you guess at just how many differences there are exactly between the Bond novels and their film counterparts?

Or take the first Superman film for example, and the liberty of playing Clark Kent as a bumbling nerd, despite the fact that the comics never portrayed him as such, and neither did the serials, TV series or Max Fleischer cartoons.

The Hellboy film created a romance between Hellboy and Liz Sherman that didn't exist in the comics.

And the liberties of the X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four films speak for themselves.Exactly and they need to stop. The films that are more faithful to the comics were more successful, 'cause the fans are more happy to see them, and see their heroes truly come to life with respect, and non fans see something they haven't before, but if they see just people runnin' around in black leather they're more likely to just pass the film over as just another clone of another clone etc.

It's sad these filmmakers can't just make these movies as they are. I want to see my favorite characters come to life, not someone's inerpretation of them.

I know they can't always be 100% like the books but they can sure get close, and well they could with all the technology to make them, there's no excuse for a comic movie to get screwed over, look at Sin City and Spider-man.

Sin City shows how faithful a comic book movie can be and Spidey shows Spandex type costumes aren't stupid looking, when done right, it depends on the design.

As for Batman, I don't think it would be a problem to do the dark grey with the Black, an all black costume on Batman works though, but with the X-men their individual suits were always so cool, and I know they started off with the same uniforms but not Wolvie etc.

Anyway back on topic, The Burton movies were still pretty faithful to the feel of Batman, and for awhile the trend was kill the villian off at the end and wrap everything up. But hopefully in the next BB Joker will live.

I was so sad to see the Joker get killed in Batman, I just wanted him alive, even if he wouldn't be in a sequal. He's the Joker, you don't kill him.

Sam Hamm really didn't want that in there and him being the Wayne's Killer, it sucks so many blamed him for it.

So did I, I didn't know till I saw the Anthology DVD that he didn't write that.

[Dr. Fate]

And the 1978 Superman film proved spandex can work when done right long before the 2002 Spider-Man film did. Too bad Bryan Singer didn't have the balls to use spandex, especially since his Superman Returns is supposed to be a big bloated semi-sequel to the first two Superman films of 1978/1980 (bloody moron that Singer).

[Katsuro]

Of the first four films, Returns is my favorite. While I dont like it as a Batman movie, I like it just as a film. Something about it is just interesting to me. I love Michelle's Catwoman, and Christopher Walken is the greatest actor ever. The feel of the movie is just amazing, even though I personally feel it doesn't belong with Batman. It's so wierd, my feelings are so mixed on that film. I think if that movie was relatively the same, only about a made up superhero instead of Batman, i'd love it. I mean, Burton really could've just changed character names and most people probably wouldn't have noticed it had similarities to Batman. Another reason I like this film might be because it's the first Batman film I remember seeing. I was 2 when Batman 89 came out, so i dont remember if i didn't see it at first, or if i was just too young to remember it. All i know is my earliest memory of seeing it takes place after my earliest memory of Returns. So anyways, my general feeling towards Returns is that I enjoy it as a film on it's own, but it just doesn't feel like the Batman i've come to know from the comics.

As for the original Batman, I'm not a fan. Perhaps its too many changes to the mythos and characters, but I just dont care for it. One problem is the Joker. I'm a huge fan of the Joker as he's portrayed in the modern, post-crisis era of comics (Killing Joke, Long Halloween, even Hush) and this Joker seems closer to the original Kane interpretation. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that it's simply not the interpretation I prefer. Also, the Prince music. Absolutley terrible, what were they thinking?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I love Batman 89 and Batman Returns, they will always be a part of my childhood that i loved. But Batman Begins is not just the best Batman movie, IMO it is the best comic book movie by far full stop. I own both '89 and Returns, and still watch them as well, but BB is far superior.

[Morgoth]

And the 1978 Superman film proved spandex can work when done right long before the 2002 Spider-Man film did. Too bad Bryan Singer didn't have the balls to use spandex, especially since his Superman Returns is supposed to be a big bloated semi-sequel to the first two Superman films of 1978/1980 (bloody moron that Singer).Singer has no imagination, and his "sequel" is lazy story telling. He just couldn't come up with anything original and actually make a faithful Superman movie. I could've punched him when he told that fan at a comicon that the movie's based on next to nothing from the comics.

Well, it's from a comic it is a comic but, Singer said it himself he hasn't ever read them and doesn't care. Idiot.

The Spidey spandex looks way better than the Supes suit though.

[Morgoth]

I love Batman 89 and Batman Returns, they will always be a part of my childhood that i loved. But Batman Begins is not just the best Batman movie, IMO it is the best comic book movie by far full stop. I own both '89 and Returns, and still watch them as well, but BB is far superior.BB is good but, I didn't jump on the BB bandwagon. If the Joker doesn't even have the white face because of Nolan's lack of imagination, I won't even bother with it, hopefully someone will tell him this is a comic book, and even though Batman doesn't have powers some of his villians do, and Batman's not meant to be bland, he's always been a Superhero, his gadgets and suit give him his powers, in a sense, there's just something about Batman, he's not meant to be just some gritty dull vigilante. He's more than that. I mean Goyer had to convince Nolan to let Scarecrow wear a mask! these filmmakers need to make these comic book characters come to life with respect and keep their opinions to themselves. It is based on something long loved by fans, if they wanna' do something of their own then let them write something original of their own and leave these characters as they are. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Morgoth]

I just remembered another bit of merchandise I had in 89. I had a baseball cap with the logo, I wore that thing so much my Mom said I was gonna' go bald.

I remember the Batman cereal aswell, it was little golden Bat symbols, tasted like a bland Captian Crunch.

The Batman Returns cereal was better, it was chocolate with marshmallows. :) :up:

[HalloweenRes]

I loved Batman 89 and Batman Returns. They are both great films, however, I think Batman Returns is a more fun film, because it feels more like a fantasy world. I mean, when you have a Bat, a Cat and a Penquin running around the city, what else is it suppose to feel like? I remember when Batman 89 came out. I was seven years old. My mother didn't want me to see it, because she had heard how viloent it was going to be and how dark. So, her and my step father watched it one night, and I was with my father and when he dropped me off, they were watching it. I remember sitting down to watch it with them and I loved it. When Batman Returns came out, I can remember my mother saying how Batman kills in this one, and how it is probably more violent than the last. I loved it. It seems like so long ago since I was at the theater. It was just awesome and when Batman Begins flashed accross the screen, I got that same feeling.
Now, about Batman Returns; many people and parents have talked about how the movie was too dark and scary for kids. Here is what gets me, on the SE DVD, they say how Batman Returns was not geared towards kids.. That is total BS.. The toy companies promoted Batman Returns, the party companies had plates and napkins, etc, etc, so they can't tell me they were not gearing it towards kids. And, here is the kicker.. Not that this is a big deal, but if you look at the old Batman Returns trailer, where the Penquin is instructing his Penquin commandos, he says, "The time has come..to punish all.. of Gotham!!" Now, in the movie, he says, "The time has come to punish all of God's children!" They were trying to make it seem more "friendly" in that trailer by covering up that line. They knew parents wouldn't take their kids to see it if they left that in.. That has always bugged me.. Oh well. They tricked the public with that, and parents took their kids to see it. Do I think it was too violent? No. My siblings have watched it and were not scared at all.

[Furious Styles]

Batman Begins was a great film, however B'89 was a cultural phenomenon. There's a certain sense of nostalgia when you look back upon that film, and you realize it wasn't just a film. It was an event. It was something more than just a simple comic book movie.

B'89 showed us Batman's true potential as a cultural hero that all people could embrace and enjoy. You had this otherworldly director in Tim Burton, Jack Nicholson as The Joker, Mr. Mom as Batman, something from afar which would seem improbable to succeed. Yet, they all believed in the project, and not only did the film succeed, it flourished.

[Morgoth]

One other reason I'm glad Keaton got it is they were also thinking of Tom Hanks. Yikes! Micheal was such a great Bruce/Batman but if Tom had done that would've been bad, some say Mike wasn't right but look at Tom, that would've been horrible.

[Super_Ludacris]

A key footnote in the Batman legacy

[jrd550]

I love Batman 89 and Batman Returns, they will always be a part of my childhood that i loved. But Batman Begins is not just the best Batman movie, IMO it is the best comic book movie by far full stop. I own both '89 and Returns, and still watch them as well, but BB is far superior.

I agree. BB is, up till now, the best comic book/superhero movie ever made. Easy.

[co2]

One thing we may seem to be forgetting, is BB wouldn't have known what to and what not to do unless the previous films had navigated the mine field first. What's funny is Burton's film did well but I have the feeling that particularly Schumacher's films may have been the model for what not to do. Had it not been so camp previously, the producer's of Begins may not have decided to go in the complete opposite direction. So in a way...you have Schumacher to thank for Begins.

[Morgoth]

One thing we may seem to be forgetting, is BB wouldn't have known what to and what not to do unless the previous films had navigated the mine field first. What's funny is Burton's film did well but I have the feeling that particularly Schumacher's films may have been the model for what not to do. Had it not been so camp previously, the producer's of Begins may not have decided to go in the complete opposite direction. So in a way...you have Schumacher to thank for Begins.True. If only Burton could've done Three and Four. I have my own thought on what he could've done, Elijah Wood as Robin in three, Just Two-Face as the villian, in Four the Scarecrow, if he did a five, The Riddler.:)

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

BB is good but, I didn't jump on the BB bandwagon. If the Joker doesn't even have the white face because of Nolan's lack of imagination, I won't even bother with it, hopefully someone will tell him this is a comic book, and even though Batman doesn't have powers some of his villians do, and Batman's not meant to be bland, he's always been a Superhero, his gadgets and suit give him his powers, in a sense, there's just something about Batman, he's not meant to be just some gritty dull vigilante. He's more than that. I mean Goyer had to convince Nolan to let Scarecrow wear a mask! these filmmakers need to make these comic book characters come to life with respect and keep their opinions to themselves. It is based on something long loved by fans, if they wanna' do something of their own then let them write something original of their own and leave these characters as they are. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Well, i'll admit Morgoth, i didnt really jump on the BB bandwagon i was frigging dragged onto it. I thought the movie was just good when i first saw it in the cinema, but since i have bought it on DVd i have come to realise how truly great the movie is. When i first saw it, i wouldnt put it in my top 30 movies ever, but now i would put it in my top ten, i love it that much.

[Morgoth]

BB's good but there's still something about Batman and Batman Returns.

[Morgoth]

I just remembered all the Batman buttons I had in 89. I use to get them at Walgreen's so everytime we went I'd get one. They had regular size buttons and these really big ones.

They were great. I had one big one with the Bat logo on it, and the small ones I had were , the Joker, Batman, Batman and Robin, the Bat symbol that was the longer version the Bat-Signal logo. And just a ton of different Batman pics in different poses.

I wish I still had them.

[SharonNash]

I liked how Burton did Gotham city :up: you said it - that was just great - superstuff:supes: :up:

[TheGrayGhost]

This thread is to celebrate the originals. Sure some things were changed and it wasn't as faithful to the comic book as Batman Begins but BB wasn't 100% faithful either.

There's a certain spirit of Batman that was captured beautifully in the Burton movies. A spirit that is missing in "Begins". I like BB alot but Burton's movies are something special...

That is very interesting. You see, I feel the exact opposite. To me, the Burton movies failed to capture the very essence and spirit of the Batman. It didn't feel like Batman. The movies completely glossed over "the mission." This is one of the reasons why I consider the Burton movies to be very inferior (it didn't help either that all of the characters were bastardizations.). Batman Begins nailed every bit of it, and did it extremely well.

That said, I do appreciate the B89 and BR movies because of what they did to further the character. I am talking about the incredible BTAS and the rest of DCAU. And hey, we wouldn't have gotten BB if it weren't to what started with B89.

Oh, and there have been at least two other threads like this.

[El Payaso]

That is very interesting. You see, I feel the exact opposite. To me, the Burton movies failed to capture the very essence and spirit of the Batman. It didn't feel like Batman. The movies completely glossed over "the mission."

What? How so? B89 start when batman is doing his mission. He does throughout all the movie and at the end you know why he has that mission.

If you're talking about not expalining (and/opr overexplaining) every single detail of Batman pre-history, then it's a matter of approach not of completely glossing over.

This is one of the reasons why I consider the Burton movies to be very inferior (it didn't help either that all of the characters were bastardizations.)

How about Com. Loeb, Flass, that delicate mannered Jonathan Crane (whose tortured childhood was nowhere not even in a flashback or some little explanation, talking about gloss over) or the almost unexistant Scarecrow which was a mask used a bunch of seconds in the whole movie? How about Ducard being Ras? I wouldn't call any of those the hateful name of 'bastardization' but just changes for dramatic purposes, adaptation.

. Batman Begins nailed every bit of it, and did it extremely well.

It did well, nevertheless there's the points of characters I told and the editing which was messy. And the fact that Bale didn't have a consistent bat-voice.

Oh, and there have been at least two other threads like this.

Yes. There should be three more.

[TheGrayGhost]

What? How so? B89 start when batman is doing his mission. He does throughout all the movie and at the end you know why he has that mission...

It's quite difficult for me to explain (but I'll try my best) because the characterization of the Burton Bruce Wayne/Batman is very ambigious, contradictory, and vague. Most of the problem lies within how Burton wishes to present the character, of course. But more on that later.

Since we're both Batman fans, I'm assuming you have a clear understanding of "the mission." I won't go through the trouble of fleshing it out.

The Burton Batman has no regard for the city of Gotham and its people. The character in B89 and BR is soley motivated by his own selfish desire for vengeance and restitution for the murder of his parents; this is what motivates the Burton Batman throughout. True, the characterization of the Batman has always included some idealogy of vengeance, but it always has been tempered by a commitment (almost obsession) to restore Gotham City and to honor the memory of his parents (i.e. the mission.) But the Burton interpretation shows Batman as only a revenge-crazed vigilante out for his own gratification; the tragedy of Gotham City as a whole is completely overlooked by the movie. It shouldn't be. The turmoil of Gotham is inextricably linked to the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne (which is another character analysis for another discussion.)

As such, the very death of Thomas and Martha Wayne takes back-seat to the fixation the Burton Batman has with vengeance. But you don't have to go into a deep character analysis to see that; the murder of the Waynes occupies very little screen-time in both movies. If memory serves me correctly, B89 shows three particular incidinces where the Waynes are referenced, but each were very brief and poorly executed. In BR, there's next to nothing. These glimpse didn't do much but to try and hold the loose story and plot together. Therefore, the murder of the Waynes in the Burton movies is reduced to only a poor plot point, a cheap mechanism to hold the stories together. They weren't viewing pools into the psyche of Bruce Wayne. They were only one-dimensional plot points that were more focused on Jack Napier than the Waynes themselves.

With that in mind, I recall what I said earlier about the characerization of Batman in the Burton movies. That is, he is ambigous, vague, and contradictory. You see, the stories in B89 and BR themselves do not exactly tell why Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. Because we are fans of the character, we do know exactly why. But as far as the movies are concerned, Batman emerged from a desire for vengeance and NOT guilt, justice, honor, or hope. Accordingly, the Burton Batman's exploits in Gotham don't make any sense at all. He's just there. The only explanation offered is his lust for vengeance, but how does that appoint him the savior of Gotham City? The tragic event of his parents' murder is never adequately fleshed out. The only thing left is his fixation with Jack Napier. As such, it would have made more sense if Bruce Wayne's goal was to only kill Napier for restitution, not to also strangely dress like a stiff bat and whisper to thugs. To be fair, the Burton Batman did kill Napier in the movie, but the character continued to dress like a stiff bat and fight crime. This, above all, does not make any sense to me. I mean, the Burton Bruce Wayne/Batman is clearly defined as a character striving for vengeance, so why after killing Napier, does Bruce Wayne not find resolution in his death? The point I'm trying to make is that the Burton Batman doesn't make sense. But you know what? The Burton movies are just vague enough for fans to justify and conjecture the characterization of Batman.

Now, most of the fans of the two movies would argue that it is this ambiguity which actually adds to the presentation of Batman. To many, it somehow heightens his "aura of mystery." While I respect this opinion, it is something which annoys me to the extreme. To me, part of the appeal of Batman isn't about how much we don't know him, but about how much we do. I think fans are confusing his veil of mystery as seen through the view of other characters in his mythos. I mean, the only person genuinely close to Bruce Wayne/Batman is Alfred (another failure of the previous franchise.) Everyone else in Gotham and in the world have a hard time determining whether he exists or not. That's the "mystery" I hope you guys are talking about.

Conclusively, I think the Burton movies missed the mark on Batman. I also found it to be a bland and boring interpretation (which is a bit funny, comparing and contrasting my view with the other posters.)

How about Com. Loeb, Flass, that delicate mannered Jonathan Crane (whose tortured childhood was nowhere not even in a flashback or some little explanation, talking about gloss over)

It would have been irrelevant to the progression of the story. All the same, the character was portrayed extremely well. And so were the other characters.

How about Ducard being Ras? I wouldn't call any of those the hateful name of 'bastardization' but just changes for dramatic purposes, adaptation.


The mentioning of Ducard as Ra's is a weak example. It was totally in character.

It did well, nevertheless there's the points of characters I told and the editing which was messy. And the fact that Bale didn't have a consistent bat-voice.

I have to disagree. The editing was intended, and I didn't find it to be "messy." I thought it was awesome. Bale's voice was consistent, and cool at that.

[TheGrayGhost]

BB is good but, I didn't jump on the BB bandwagon. If the Joker doesn't even have the white face because of Nolan's lack of imagination, I won't even bother with it, hopefully someone will tell him this is a comic book, and even though Batman doesn't have powers some of his villians do, and Batman's not meant to be bland, he's always been a Superhero, his gadgets and suit give him his powers, in a sense, there's just something about Batman, he's not meant to be just some gritty dull vigilante. He's more than that. I mean Goyer had to convince Nolan to let Scarecrow wear a mask! these filmmakers need to make these comic book characters come to life with respect and keep their opinions to themselves. It is based on something long loved by fans, if they wanna' do something of their own then let them write something original of their own and leave these characters as they are. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

EDIT: Sigh. I won't even bother with a response. Oh, wait. This is a response. Damn.

Just read my previous post on the last page.

[Morgoth]

I miss watching 89 in the theater. That was such a great time.

[블라스]

I love this thread.
I actually hated the Burton films for a while, especially after watching Batman Begins, but I took a chance and bought the SE's, and damn, I'm so glad I did, they really are excellent movies :up:

[Kevin Roegele]

Singer has no imagination, and his "sequel" is lazy story telling. He just couldn't come up with anything original and actually make a faithful Superman movie. I could've punched him when he told that fan at a comicon that the movie's based on next to nothing from the comics.

Well, it's from a comic it is a comic but, Singer said it himself he hasn't ever read them and doesn't care. Idiot.

The Spidey spandex looks way better than the Supes suit though.

Singer has realised that Supeman is a character, not a comicbook. The story of Superman was originally told in comicSTRIPS, then comicBOOKS, then radio shows, then television....it's a story that can be told in any medium.

Look at Begins; Nolan and Goyer were pretty damn faithful to Batman mythos, but not the medium of a comic itself. Begins in no way attempts to look like a comic or function like one.

[co2]

Singer has realised that Supeman is a character, not a comicbook. The story of Superman was originally told in comicSTRIPS, then comicBOOKS, then radio shows, then television....it's a story that can be told in any medium.

Look at Begins; Nolan and Goyer were pretty damn faithful to Batman mythos, but not the medium of a comic itself. Begins in no way attempts to look like a comic or function like one.


That's a pretty damn good point. Superman and Batman have transcended their comic book roots. The characters are almost mythic at this point so I think the film makers serve them well by taking history from the comics, but not being bound to it.

[fabman]

Soooo... Although I think Batman Begins is the best movie based on Kane's characters, that doesn't mean "i've jumped on the BB bandwagon". I see the Bat-films as FILMS!

So, I think "Batman" (1989) lacks somewhere in the storytelling, because of its minimal storyline. But this doesn't change the fact Tim Burton's a funny and adventurous "tour de force" with a great Michael Keaton and a hell-of-a Jack Nicholson. 7/10

"Batman Returns" (1992) has the same problem with its storyline plus the hero is overshadowed by the villains again! This movie isn't as funny as the first, but the characterizations and psychological aspects are better. This is a true Burton film. 7/10

[Morgoth]

Singer has realised that Supeman is a character, not a comicbook. The story of Superman was originally told in comicSTRIPS, then comicBOOKS, then radio shows, then television....it's a story that can be told in any medium.

Look at Begins; Nolan and Goyer were pretty damn faithful to Batman mythos, but not the medium of a comic itself. Begins in no way attempts to look like a comic or function like one.You still have to respect where it came from. And the mythos is what these filmmakers don't care about. That's what I should've said. If they did care they'd stay faithful to it. I want to see the characters cometo life I've known for years, not some ignorant director's version who doesn't get it and doesn't care.

[co2]

You still have to respect where it came from. And the mythos is what these filmmakers don't care about. That's what I should've said. If they did care they'd stay faithful to it. I want to see the characters cometo life I've known for years, not some ignorant director's version who doesn't get it and doesn't care.

stories and myths have to be allowed to evolve just like every thing else.

[TheGrayGhost]

You still have to respect where it came from. And the mythos is what these filmmakers don't care about. That's what I should've said. If they did care they'd stay faithful to it. I want to see the characters cometo life I've known for years, not some ignorant director's version who doesn't get it and doesn't care.

Exactly. That's the main reason why the previous franchise failed. Good post.

[El Payaso]

Exactly. That's the main reason why the previous franchise failed. Good post.

The only reason the previous franchise failed was Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin.

Batman 89 was not 100% faithful to comics and still is THE most successful Batman movie. Not to mention that Begins has the usual amount of unfaithfulness.

Faithfulness to the comics had never been related with success or quality.

[TheGrayGhost]

The only reason the previous franchise failed was Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin.

Batman 89 was not 100% faithful to comics and still is THE most successful Batman movie. Not to mention that Begins has the usual amount of unfaithfulness.

Faithfulness to the comics had never been related with success or quality.

Oh, come on, let me have my fun. I mean, no one has responded to my huge post earlier, so I'm just trying to make my time in this thread eventful.

[Whack Arnolds]

No ADAPTATION can be a 100% representative of the "source". Because it is just that, an ADAPTATION. It takes the key elements and themes of all the characters and stories and may tweak it here and there (some cases for better or for worse) and it makes something fresh out of concept and stories we already know and love. THAT'S the beauty in it. I would never want to see a Batman film that is an exact translation of a previous piece of work. I want new stories, with similar elements to key stories and characters of the mythos, but I want it presented in a new way. Alot of hardcore comic fanboys can't grasp this.

Anyway, to the topic at hand...
The Burton Bat-Films were not only monumental for the Batman legacy, but for comic book movies, and summer blockbusters in general. B89 is arguably the template for how all studios hope their summer blockbuster is recieved and anticipated over.

The movies themselves are outstanding. I personally feel B89 is the best of the bunch, because even though it may not be as deep as Batman Returns...it combines a perfect combonation of film aesthetics and story telling, along with subtle themes. B89 is pure film magic. It sucks you into it's world, and grips you. I grew up with it as a child, it was the first movie I EVER saw in a theatre... it hooked me like a crack fiend onto the character of Batman. I just can't really put it into words. And if I tried, I would be here for days. I can watch it at anytime and never be bored, and still get the nostolgic feelings from my childhood, and can find new ways to interperut it when I see it through different eras from my life.

As for the legitimacy of whether B89 and Returns is faithful? To an extent, yes they are. B89 contains the essence of the early Bob Kane stories, perfectly. When people say Begins is more "faithful" it is true in that it represents a larger description of the character through its many forms, rather than just a particular version.

Returns, though deep down a fantastic film, yet not as fun as Begins or B89, was more of Burton's pure perspective on Batman. Sure some elements mesh with how he is percieved by the majority of fans, but for the most part it was a Tim Burton creation. Not that it is a bad thing, because it turned out about as well as it could for being a completely different outlook on the character compared to the first film. I would have liked to have seen a more direct sequel to B89, which would have most likely been met with more critical and financial success, and would have allowed the crew to stay together and make their trilogy... I still completely enjoy both Burton films.

[El Payaso]

Oh, come on, let me have my fun. I mean, no one has responded to my huge post earlier, so I'm just trying to make my time in this thread eventful.

Your long post was the seed of (yet) another thread-ruiner Burton-Nolan war. To reply it is to water the seed.

We have plenty of threads to develop that war.

[D'Artagnan]

Surely it's a good thing that not only have various directors shot these Batman movies, but that their movies are so different? The viewer can learn a lot about the character and the directors by contrasting the different movies.

[TheGrayGhost]

Your long post was the seed of (yet) another thread-ruiner Burton-Nolan war. To reply it is to water the seed.

We have plenty of threads to develop that war.

Well, I can't say that you're wrong; but, if I remember correctly, it was you who asked of me why the older movies completely glossed over "the mission." And I told why.

[El Payaso]

My mistake

[neobido9999]

I really wish Burton has completed his trilogy. Compared t the equally good Noaln, he has far most intersting visuals (the designs for the joker and peguin are superb and iconic) but less idea how to tell and subtle and unfolding story, which Nolan can do brilliantly,

[Morgoth]

Would've been great if Burton completed his trilogy. If the rumors are true robin Williams would've been a dark psychotic Riddler.

Would've been wonderful. And I think if he went ahead, I'm sure he would've seen Wayans as Robin was dumb and went with someone who is more like Robin.

[Batman333]

Batman Begins is a film based on the comics. Batman is a film based on Tim Burton's imagination.

[HalloweenRes]

Batman Begins is a film based on the comics. Batman is a film based on Tim Burton's imagination.

AGREED.. And Tim Burton has one WILD imagination..

[theMan-Bat]

Would've been great if Burton completed his trilogy. If the rumors are true robin Williams would've been a dark psychotic Riddler.

And Robin Williams can be creepy and psychological. Just watch One Hour Photo and Insomnia for proof of that. Perfect for the Riddler (of the comics and the Animated Series).
http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/movie/one_hour_photo/08.jpeg

[Sandman138]

Burtons Bat-Films will always be my favorite and it's one of my biggest dissapointments that he didn't get to finish his trilogy. It could have been perfection.:(

[Duneboy]

yeah, I agree it sucks he never finished the 3rd bat flick. Michael Keaton & Burton made a good team.

[Sandman138]

I'm so glad you know what I mean by spirit. It's that feeling that surrounds Batman, even when I read the comics that 89 theme still comes into my mind, the Elfmann score is Batman, that is his music, it is just right. That new score just isn't it, it's very good but not as good as the original.

And no it's not dated, I haven't ever gotten that feeling from that or thought that.

The only people that say that are kids that just don't know what they're talking about or haven't really grown up with it and missed that experience of 89.

That movie was made the way it was so it couldn't be dated, that sort of forties look, Burton said it himself, and that is true, it isn't dated. The Prince music still sucks but, oh well.

There are alot of kids on here that only know Begins, and they really don't know what they're talking about. I can see really liking BB for being faithful to the comics but, don't sit and talk about it like it's the only Bat movie ever made.

They don't know what the Summer of 89 was like.

I still remember forcing somebody in family to take me to see Returns in theaters when I was 6. Such an experience.

[TwilightPro101]

I can remember seeing both films in theater. Returns stands out as one of my favorite Batman memories. The summer heat was on and I was just dealing with everything that was happening at the moment...any way, my grandfather took me to see it in theaters and I waited for it to VHS as soon as it came out. I rented it a number of times despite the darkness.

[antonydelfini]

burton's batman films have something that batman begins dont have. i think batman and batman returns has the batman spirit in them, or the magic of batman sense of feeling. but what those films dont have is the respect and seriousness that batman begins displayed and i believe that if those strengths were combined, it would be the definitive batman movie.

[Morgoth]

Burton's movies do indeed have that Batman feeling, that's why I tend to watch them more and sometimes get bored with BB.

[captain_jimbo]

burton's batman films have something that batman begins dont have. i think batman and batman returns has the batman spirit in them, or the magic of batman sense of feeling. but what those films dont have is the respect and seriousness that batman begins displayed and i believe that if those strengths were combined, it would be the definitive batman movie.

I agree, I like Batman Begins, but Batman and Batman Returns are even better, and seem to capture the right mood and feeling of Batman.:up:

[Mr. Socko]

Burton's movies do indeed have that Batman feeling, that's why I tend to watch them more and sometimes get bored with BB.

It's really the first hour of Begins that bores me during multiple viewings. I can only watch his 1 hour origin so many times.

[Spoarz™]

There's a certain spirit of Batman that was captured beautifully in the Burton movies. A spirit that is missing in "Begins". I like BB alot but Burton's movies are something special.

I know what you mean dude, I love Batman Begins, but I just don't think the Burton movies will ever be beaten personally. :up:

[Two-Face]

Really? Begins just did and that Begins 2 will do the same.

[El Payaso]

Really? Begins just did and that Begins 2 will do the same.

Please, people and reviweres around the world still think it's a prequel to Burton's.

[Two-Face]

Just cos they chose to use black rubber suit in Begins right? :rolleyes:

[El Payaso]

Because the minute they saw a good movie they immediatelly thought: Burton.

[Mr. Socko]

Lol!

[Two-Face]

Before Burton movies people thought of Batman it was 66 Tv theme "Na,na,na,na Batman" but still Begins tops.

[Mr. Socko]

Before Burton movies people thought of Batman it was 66 Tv theme "Na,na,na,na Batman" but still Begins tops.

Sometimes I think Begings is better. Sometimes i think Batman '89 is better. I can't make up my mind:(

But I think once Batman 2 comes out, Nolan's Batman set will be better then Burton's set.

[El Payaso]

Before Burton movies people thought of Batman it was 66 Tv theme "Na,na,na,na Batman" but still Begins tops.

That's right. After Burton it's dark movie and black rubber for Batman or nothing.


Your indecision, Mr. Socko, is ideal. Allows you to enjoy both and debate more openly.

[antonydelfini]

i have a feeling that the sequel will finally capture that batman feeling we are talking about since the batman there is a fully formed batman now with more villanious and theatrical villains while maintaining the seriousness and respect that batman begins had.

[HalloweenRes]

I personally didn't see what was wrong with the look and feel of Batman Begins. Some people on the board don't like the fact that it takes SO long for Bruce to become Batman. To me, that is the most interesting part of the story. It is about his quest to become something MORE.. Bruce is looking for his place in life; a way to fight injustice. I find his quest to be more intrieging than his becoming Batman. It gives him the means. Of course, it is the training that makes him finally become Batman.(of course, money and power help. LOL) I agree that we will see one of the best Batman film with Begins 2, now that Batman is on the scene. I just really enjoy the first hour.

[SHADOWBAT69]

Of course, it is the training that makes him finally become Batman.(of course, money and power help. LOL)

actually, the training is nothing, the will is everything.:p

[El Payaso]

I personally didn't see what was wrong with the look and feel of Batman Begins. Some people on the board don't like the fact that it takes SO long for Bruce to become Batman. To me, that is the most interesting part of the story. It is about his quest to become something MORE.. Bruce is looking for his place in life; a way to fight injustice. I find his quest to be more intrieging than his becoming Batman. It gives him the means. Of course, it is the training that makes him finally become Batman.(of course, money and power help. LOL) I agree that we will see one of the best Batman film with Begins 2, now that Batman is on the scene. I just really enjoy the first hour.

On the contrary, I think the first hour was the best.

[theMan-Bat]

I think Tankman Begins is the best thing on the DVD.

[TheGrayGhost]

Please, people and reviweres around the world still think it's a prequel to Burton's.

:D

People are dumb.

[Mr. Socko]

I think Tankman Begins is the best thing on the DVD.

Tankman was great :D

[El Payaso]

:D

People are dumb.

Except us, conveniently enough.

[Sandman138]

On the contrary, I think the first hour was the best.

Same here. Begins plateaud once he got back to Gotham.

[Kevin Roegele]

The next movie should be awesome, given the history of superhero sequels being as good as or better than the originals (Superman II, Batman Returns, X2, Spider-Man 2).

[Two-Face]

Yeah Batman 2 will be better with Joker and Dent in it.

[Kevin Roegele]

Yeah Batman 2 will be better with Joker and Dent in it.

It's not so much Batman 2 as Batman Mk II 2.

[Two-Face]

Ok then, it's Untitled Batman Begins Sequel.

[Morgoth]

I agree, I like Batman Begins, but Batman and Batman Returns are even better, and seem to capture the right mood and feeling of Batman.:up:Agreed.

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Begins is a superbly assembled movie, but lacks two things; mystery and atmosphere. The Burton movies are not as proficient as Begins in terms of storytelling, but they do have both those ingredients in abundance.

[Mr. Socko]

Batman Begins is a superbly assembled movie, but lacks two things; mystery and atmosphere. The Burton movies are not as proficient as Begins in terms of storytelling, but they do have both those ingredients in abundance.

Couldn't have said it better, myself.

And I'll call it Batman 2 until an official name is out. Calling it "Untitled Batman Begins Sequel", doesn't sound good. lol

[Morgoth]

I just watched BATMAN again, I can never get enough of it. It truly captures the spirit of Batman.

I don't care what any newbies say, the Burton film feels more like the comic than Begins.

That scene of Joker in Grissom's office after killing Carl is so evil, I love it.

And the way the Joker looks when he's first revealed looks like a page right out of the comic book.

[Whack Arnolds]

Batman Begins virtually is a comic book, so how can the two Burton films capture the spirit of Batman more...when BEGINS represents multiple eras of the character and mythos, where as B89 and Returns are narrower in its source history. Batman Begins is damn near a straight mix of 3 graphic novels: Man Who Falls, Year One, and Long Halloween. It doesn't get "closer to the spirit" than that!!

B89 feels like a legitimate Batman story, Returns however does not. In terms of story and storytelling, the Burton films are rather lackluster. Being a "newbie" has nothing to do with those analyzations.

[El Payaso]

Batman Begins virtually is a comic book, so how can the two Burton films capture the spirit of Batman more...when BEGINS represents multiple eras of the character and mythos, where as B89 and Returns are narrower in its source history. Batman Begins is damn near a straight mix of 3 graphic novels: Man Who Falls, Year One, and Long Halloween. It doesn't get "closer to the spirit" than that!!

The answer is simple: Faithfulness means nothing in the quality dept. It means way too much in the fans dept, but not in the quality one.

And 'spirit' of anything is just a great-sounding concept. Everyone gets the spirit in a different way.

[Whack Arnolds]

The answer is simple: Faithfulness means nothing in the quality dept. It means way too much in the fans dept, but not in the quality one.

And 'spirit' of anything is just a great-sounding concept. Everyone gets the spirit in a different way.This is true too, I was just giving this kid, Morgoth, a "point, counter-point" to him saying Batman Begins or any other movie doesn't represent or is as "faithful' as the Burton movies were. To be honest, all of the fimls were really faithful in most aspects. Returns deviates quite a bit off the feel of any Batman comic, but it still captures some good stuff. The only other HUGE divergence in 'faithfulness" is making Joker the killer of the Wayne family.

[CFlash]

I thought Burton's Batman was done quite well. It was more of an *experience* than a regular movie. The first scene on the rooftop when Batman floats down in the background was fantastic... oh so subtle.... that's movie making!

However, sadly, the story was very lame. And while Nicholson was great as The Joker, he received way TOO MUCH screen time. His scenes needed some serious editing.

Keaton. Well, despite his stature, I thought Keaton *acting-wise* made a good Batman. Sure Bale is better. I love Bale. But I wouldn't knock Keaton's Batman. He played Batman "dark" and "intellectual" even if not quite the physical Crusader we all know.

Batman is the first and only movie I where I saw the audience actually stand up and cheer *enthusiastically* (not the polite contagious hand-clapping) at the end. I'll never forget that experience.

P.S.
Am I the only one who sees parallels with Batman Begin's "toxin" story and Batman 1's "toxin" story? I really wish the Batman movies would move away from the "doomesday" poison-the-whole-city stories and do more subtle "detective" crime stories. That's just my opinion.

[JoeBoxer]

you know i think Tim Burton's was a lot darker there were alot more deaths.

[Morgoth]

I just got the Batman score yesterday. It is so awesome. It truly captures the darkness and the adventure of Batman.

I love listening to it while reading.

[CFlash]

I just got the Batman score yesterday. It is so awesome. It truly captures the darkness and the adventure of Batman.

I love listening to it while reading.

The Elfman score from 89? If so, I agree. And, I kinda missed it in Batman Begins... which left me feeling a bit indifferent to the movie (I like it, don't get me wrong... there was just a WOW factor missing).

And I said in my post... watching Batman 89 in the theater was an *experience* (gripes with the story notwithstanding).

[captain_jimbo]

I just watched BATMAN again, I can never get enough of it. It truly captures the spirit of Batman.

I don't care what any newbies say, the Burton film feels more like the comic than Begins.

That scene of Joker in Grissom's office after killing Carl is so evil, I love it.

And the way the Joker looks when he's first revealed looks like a page right out of the comic book.

I totally agree, I love Batman, I can never get enough. It's just such an iconic movie, Keaton was the best Batman ever and Jack Nicholson's performance as The Joker is just sublime. No one will ever top it!

[Dr. Weir]

Batman Returns is the best

[CFlash]

Batman Returns is the best

I haven't seen Returns in a long time... but the other day I caught the scene where he's taking of his mask to expose himself to Christopher Walken and Pfiefer. It was so badly done. In one edit, he has the black makup underneath the mask... and in the next he has the mask with no makeup underneath.

Maybe I looked away and missed an edit... I dunno.... but it was corny as hell. :down

P.S. I still liked Burton's Batman... A LOT. :up:

[Proximo]

I haven't seen Returns in a long time... but the other day I caught the scene where he's taking of his mask to expose himself to Christopher Walken and Pfiefer. It was so badly done. In one edit, he has the black makup underneath the mask... and in the next he has the mask with no makeup underneath.

Maybe I looked away and missed an edit... I dunno.... but it was corny as hell. :down

P.S. I still liked Burton's Batman... A LOT. :up:

hehe that scene is pretty funny, But its simply because Bruce wouldnt look good whit black makeup smeared around his eyes whit mask taken off
:O Thats why its edited that way.

Batman & Batman returns are my favorite batman movies still.
Im still not happy whit Batman begins, its a good popcorn movie .. but it felt more like a normal action movie then a Batman movie.

[CFlash]

hehe that scene is pretty funny, But its simply because Bruce wouldnt look good whit black makeup smeared around his eyes whit mask taken off
:O Thats why its edited that way.

Yeah.. but correct me if I'm wrong, but the black makeup is magically gone BEFORE he takes off the mask. Am I wrong?

He could have at least look down, taken off the mask, cut scene, and then looked up sans makeup.... that way the black makup "appears" to have been part of the mask. I dunno. It's been a while.

[Proximo]

Yeah.. but correct me if I'm wrong, but the black makeup is magically gone BEFORE he takes off the mask. Am I wrong?
I think your right, its some time since i saw the movie but they might have do it that way so people who dont look close wont notice it or something.

Eitherway, i dont think we will ever see bruce whit black eyemake-up right after taking of the mask.


He could have at least look down, taken off the mask, cut scene, and then looked up sans makeup.... that way the black makup "appears" to have been part of the mask. I dunno. It's been a while.
Yeah that would been much better, But i still love the scene as is.
Batman maybe took out a bat tisue from his utility belt and wiped it off while catwoman talked to shrek or something, LOL:O

[Bat Attack]

Tim Burton's two Batman films are still my favorite Batman films (behind MOTP). :up:

[Whack Arnolds]

^

AWESOME avvy. That is the SE dvd cover from Europe, correct? Lucky bastards...

[Sandman138]

Yeah.. but correct me if I'm wrong, but the black makeup is magically gone BEFORE he takes off the mask. Am I wrong?

He could have at least look down, taken off the mask, cut scene, and then looked up sans makeup.... that way the black makup "appears" to have been part of the mask. I dunno. It's been a while.

Or they could have shot it so that we're looking over his shoulder as he began to rip the mask off, and then cut on the action. It is rather annoying.

[batmaluco]

http://www.batmanatrajetoria.hpg.ig.com.br/ferrado.jpeg

http://www.batmanatrajetoria.hpg.ig.com.br/batman15ha.jpeg

http://www.batmanatrajetoria.hpg.ig.com.br/gato.jpeg

[Whack Arnolds]

That hand thing is pretty stupid though...

[captain_jimbo]

I think your right, its some time since i saw the movie but they might have do it that way so people who dont look close wont notice it or something.

Eitherway, i dont think we will ever see bruce whit black eyemake-up right after taking of the mask.


Yeah that would been much better, But i still love the scene as is.
Batman maybe took out a bat tisue from his utility belt and wiped it off while catwoman talked to shrek or something, LOL:O

Yeah, I couldn't care less, it's still an awesome film.
:up:

[El Payaso]

That hand thing is pretty stupid though...

Ask the guy who was stopped by it.

[Whack Arnolds]

Ask the guy who was stopped by it.I know right...

But I'm just saying it is a pretty lame device. Why would Batman need something like that? He could knock someone out, with out it. How much impact could a flimsy little thing like that have?

[SHADOWBAT69]

the guantlet ram was just a little gimmick they threw in there. I dont think much about it, it was just supposed to be another one of his "toys".

[batmaluco]

the guantlet ram was just a little gimmick they threw in there. I dont think much about it, it was just supposed to be another one of his "toys".
And even in BB, where everything is supposed to have an explanation and we finally got to see where he gets his "wonderful toys", he removed a "bat-calling" device of his shoes, out of nowhere, without any explanation about where did he get that, or why Wayne Enterprises would develop such thing.
OK, just another toy...

[Whack Arnolds]

But that made sense, and it was just a sonar emitter...not hard to understand, but it served a purpose.

[batmaluco]

Yes, it served a purpose, it's not hard to understand, but it was another toy, and echoed that question: "Where does he get his wonderful toys?"

At the end of the day, remains the question: does it really matters?

[Whack Arnolds]

Yes, it served a purpose, it's not hard to understand, but it was another toy, and echoed that question: "Where does he get his wonderful toys?"

At the end of the day, remains the question: does it really matters?I didn't say it does. But that thing that comes out of Batman's hand in B89 is LAME, and serves no purpose. At least if it was cool, then we'd have no problem. The sonar emitter allowed for one of the most Batman scenes in ANY of the movies. Batman calling thousands of Bats to escape the GPD. :up:

[captain_jimbo]

I didn't say it does. But that thing that comes out of Batman's hand in B89 is LAME, and serves no purpose. At least if it was cool, then we'd have no problem. The sonar emitter allowed for one of the most Batman scenes in ANY of the movies. Batman calling thousands of Bats to escape the GPD. :up:

I thought it was cool!

[batmaluco]

I didn't say it does. But that thing that comes out of Batman's hand in B89 is LAME, and serves no purpose. At least if it was cool, then we'd have no problem. The sonar emitter allowed for one of the most Batman scenes in ANY of the movies. Batman calling thousands of Bats to escape the GPD. :up:
I didn't say it's not lame.
But it served a purpose, the guy had knives in his boots and Batman used it as an extension of his arm and broke this guy's balls. It was lame but had this nutcracker purpose, hehe.
Anyway, I just stumbled on this pic while websurfing and it reminded me how dark Tim Burton's films were, with a blueish tone, particularly the whole cathedral scenes at the end of the first movie, so I thought it was a nice pic to post here.
Like this one:
http://batsite29.free.fr/couv/203.jpg

[Whack Arnolds]

^
Good stuff.

[batmaluco]

http://terryxart.com/Batman%20490.jpg
http://terryxart.com/Batman%20501.jpg
http://terryxart.com/Batman%20503.jpg
http://terryxart.com/Batman%20502.jpg

[batmaluco]

Ask the guy who was stopped by it.
lol, yup! It was lame but not for him.
http://www.productchat.com/pictures/nutcracker.jpg

[captain_jimbo]

Fantastic images of Keaton as Batman, it's things like this that make him my favourite.

[Whack Arnolds]

Keaton was awesome. Especially in B89.

[newwaveboy87]

Also, Micheal Keaton has the best Batman voice, Bale really needs to work on it.
Bale really does. he has a lisp at times, and while that doesn't disrupt his Bruce Wayne performance, it sounds weird when he's in Batman mode. :confused:

i wish i could've seen Batman's take on Arkham.
:( :up:

[captain_jimbo]

Although I love the way he says "I'm Batman", almost as much as I love the way Keaton says it.

[Milkman95]

I like the Burton films, but the make-up around the eyes in Returns is laughable today - he should have shot that scene from behind like somebody else already said here.

I also like the fact that Batman had to take Penguin's umbrella and hit him with it.

Bottom line is we can nitpick all the films. I like both Nolan's and Burton's Batman films.

[ZERO]

I agree. Nananana Batman.

[Keymaker]

The only thing that makes B89 dated ir Prince's music. I don't even get why the feck that stuff was in the movie.

[the_joker]

^Prince was vogue at the time.

And I completely love B89 & BR. It's just so dark and gothic, Burton did an excellent job.

[Bat Attack]

I like the Burton films, but the make-up around the eyes in Returns is laughable today - he should have shot that scene from behind like somebody else already said here.

I also like the fact that Batman had to take Penguin's umbrella and hit him with it.

Bottom line is we can nitpick all the films. I like both Nolan's and Burton's Batman films.
I agree 100%. :up::up:

[newwaveboy87]

^Prince was vogue at the time.

And I completely love B89 & BR. It's just so dark and gothic, Burton did an excellent job.
pretty much. that and their first choice of Michael Jackson dropped out :eek:
or so the rumor goes....god...i hope it was a rumor.

[Keymaker]

^Prince was vogue at the time.

And I completely love B89 & BR. It's just so dark and gothic, Burton did an excellent job.
Yeah, i know, but imo that wasn't needed at all.
It's also unusual that the soundtrack consists of only one artist...or that was normal back then?

[Bat Attack]

All I know is that "Batdance" is ****in' trippy.

[newwaveboy87]

the music video is fun. stupid, but fun.

[Bat Attack]

the music video is fun. stupid, but fun.
Same with "Partyman".

[I am 6' 3½"]

Hello! I'm new here... and Batman is my all time favorite comic book superhero... WHY? BECAUSE HE WAS THE MOST REALISTIC... and... THE DARKEST! My favorite villain of all time is Two-Face because of his split personality, attitude and gruesome cool look. Not to mention he was a District Attorney... I WISH I WAS THAT SMART! Anyways... Tim Burton's FILMS and Batman Begins WERE THE BEST BATMAN FILMS! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! In recent years... critics and fans have realised just how good a film BATMAN RETURNS WAS... imdb.com's rating of the film has increased dramatically... and critics who had canned it have changed their views when comparing such to Joel Schumacher. Now... onto Joel Schumacher. Has this guy ever directed a really good film? NOW... I didn't mind Batman Forvever... SURE... IT LOST MOST OF THE DARKNESS OF THE PREVIOUS TWO FILMS... Robin has always been annoying to me... and Tommy Lee Jones got Two-Face wrong (through no fault of his own... he was told to do that) but he did have the odd really good one-liner. Also... he looked cool as Two-Face... but he laughed way too much and didn't really show the grit, the seriousness and the true self-conflict of the real TWO-FACE IN THE COMIC BOOKS AND THE ANIMATED SERIES (THE GREATEST 2D ANIMATED SERIES EVER IF YOU ASK ME)!!! So it was okay... but it was a little corny, campy and childish... as well as rushed... nothing like the Tim Burton films. Jim Carrey was pretty cool as The Riddler though... he was perfect for that role... but the film wasn't AWESOME like the previous two... ok... not bad... but nowhere near as good! HOWEVER... JOEL SCHUMACHER DARN NEAR KILLED THE FRANCHISE WITH BATMAN & ROBIN... EVERYTHING THAT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN SAID ABOUT THIS MOVIE... WE ALL KNOW! IT SUCKED SO MUCH! GOD! I CANNOT EXPRESS THAT ENOUGH! I WAS SO ANNOYED WITH THIS MOVIE! Thank heavens for Batman Begins... and I know it has nothing to do with the other 4... but who'd want that after Batman & Robin? I look forward to the sequel... and look forward to the future Batman Movie with Harvey Dent/Two-Face as a force to be reckoned with! Thank You! For reading!:ghost:

[Super_Ludacris]

ok......

[the_joker]

Hello! I'm new here... and Batman is my all time favorite comic book superhero... WHY? BECAUSE HE WAS THE MOST REALISTIC... and... THE DARKEST! My favorite villain of all time is Two-Face because of his split personality, attitude and gruesome cool look. Not to mention he was a District Attorney... I WISH I WAS THAT SMART! Anyways... Tim Burton's FILMS and Batman Begins WERE THE BEST BATMAN FILMS! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! In recent years... critics and fans have realised just how good a film BATMAN RETURNS WAS... imdb.com's rating of the film has increased dramatically... and critics who had canned it have changed their views when comparing such to Joel Schumacher. Now... onto Joel Schumacher. Has this guy ever directed a really good film? NOW... I didn't mind Batman Forvever... SURE... IT LOST MOST OF THE DARKNESS OF THE PREVIOUS TWO FILMS... Robin has always been annoying to me... and Tommy Lee Jones got Two-Face wrong (through no fault of his own... he was told to do that) but he did have the odd really good one-liner. Also... he looked cool as Two-Face... but he laughed way too much and didn't really show the grit, the seriousness and the true self-conflict of the real TWO-FACE IN THE COMIC BOOKS AND THE ANIMATED SERIES (THE GREATEST 2D ANIMATED SERIES EVER IF YOU ASK ME)!!! So it was okay... but it was a little corny, campy and childish... as well as rushed... nothing like the Tim Burton films. Jim Carrey was pretty cool as The Riddler though... he was perfect for that role... but the film wasn't AWESOME like the previous two... ok... not bad... but nowhere near as good! HOWEVER... JOEL SCHUMACHER DARN NEAR KILLED THE FRANCHISE WITH BATMAN & ROBIN... EVERYTHING THAT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN SAID ABOUT THIS MOVIE... WE ALL KNOW! IT SUCKED SO MUCH! GOD! I CANNOT EXPRESS THAT ENOUGH! I WAS SO ANNOYED WITH THIS MOVIE! Thank heavens for Batman Begins... and I know it has nothing to do with the other 4... but who'd want that after Batman & Robin? I look forward to the sequel... and look forward to the future Batman Movie with Harvey Dent/Two-Face as a force to be reckoned with! Thank You! For reading!:ghost:

That's all you needed to put really.

[I am 6' 3½"]

That's all you needed to put really.Sorry about that... I just wanted to get you all to know me a little bit better... sorry!!!

[El Payaso]

Hello! I'm new here... and Batman is my all time favorite comic book superhero... WHY? BECAUSE HE WAS THE MOST REALISTIC... and... THE DARKEST! My favorite villain of all time is Two-Face because of his split personality, attitude and gruesome cool look. Not to mention he was a District Attorney... I WISH I WAS THAT SMART! Anyways... Tim Burton's FILMS and Batman Begins WERE THE BEST BATMAN FILMS! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! In recent years... critics and fans have realised just how good a film BATMAN RETURNS WAS... imdb.com's rating of the film has increased dramatically... and critics who had canned it have changed their views when comparing such to Joel Schumacher. Now... onto Joel Schumacher. Has this guy ever directed a really good film? NOW... I didn't mind Batman Forvever... SURE... IT LOST MOST OF THE DARKNESS OF THE PREVIOUS TWO FILMS... Robin has always been annoying to me... and Tommy Lee Jones got Two-Face wrong (through no fault of his own... he was told to do that) but he did have the odd really good one-liner. Also... he looked cool as Two-Face... but he laughed way too much and didn't really show the grit, the seriousness and the true self-conflict of the real TWO-FACE IN THE COMIC BOOKS AND THE ANIMATED SERIES (THE GREATEST 2D ANIMATED SERIES EVER IF YOU ASK ME)!!! So it was okay... but it was a little corny, campy and childish... as well as rushed... nothing like the Tim Burton films. Jim Carrey was pretty cool as The Riddler though... he was perfect for that role... but the film wasn't AWESOME like the previous two... ok... not bad... but nowhere near as good! HOWEVER... JOEL SCHUMACHER DARN NEAR KILLED THE FRANCHISE WITH BATMAN & ROBIN... EVERYTHING THAT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN SAID ABOUT THIS MOVIE... WE ALL KNOW! IT SUCKED SO MUCH! GOD! I CANNOT EXPRESS THAT ENOUGH! I WAS SO ANNOYED WITH THIS MOVIE! Thank heavens for Batman Begins... and I know it has nothing to do with the other 4... but who'd want that after Batman & Robin? I look forward to the sequel... and look forward to the future Batman Movie with Harvey Dent/Two-Face as a force to be reckoned with! Thank You! For reading!:ghost:

Oh yes.

[JTStarkiller]

I finally got around to watching the commentary for the first one. I love this quote:

"It's hard to come up with a psychological profile for a guy in a little red outfit and green booties."

Classic. :up:

[Bat Attack]

LOL, I love when Tim Burton did his impression of Jack Palance in the Batman '89 commentary. And at the end when he said "If you've made it through this commentary, I congratulate you." lol. :up:

[newwaveboy87]

i love Burton.

[Bat Attack]

Me too. :up:

[newwaveboy87]

have you heard they're re-releasing Nightmare Before Christmas this October, only it's going to be in 3D?

it makes me sad.

[Bat Attack]

Yeah I heard about that, do you know if its going to be a nationwide release or just select cities?

[newwaveboy87]

selected theaters.
which, re-releasing it in 3D is lame enough, but then to not do it nationwide is even worse. **** you Disney. :down :(

[Bat Attack]

I'll just stick to watching my DVD of it. Not in 3-D. Whats the point of releasing in 3-D??

[newwaveboy87]

no idea.
because Disney has sold their souls?

[Ceb-Man]

I love Batman 89 and Batman Returns. I own all the Batman films, but of the 1989-97 anthology special editions I own only Tim Burton's versions.
So many good memories of 1989. The film, the merchandise, etc. I loved the dark tone, the Gotham city sets, peferably Anton Furst's Gotham City.
Michael Keaton was awesome. Jack Nicholson was a great Joker.Was it perfect? no.
I really didn't like Vicki Vale going to The Batcave. Like samm Hamm said in the SE DVD. " I would have fired Alfred." I just didn't care that and that The Joker was really The Waynes killer.
I know that Burton had his vision for it and wanted it.
But all in all Batman 89 and Batman Returns are my favorate movies. I love Batman Begins, but Batman 89 really is an old sentimental favoate.
Thanks Tim Burton for the memories!

[Ibn]

LOL, I love when Tim Burton did his impression of Jack Palance in the Batman '89 commentary. And at the end when he said "If you've made it through this commentary, I congratulate you." lol. :up:

"I've been in over 100 movies. How many have you done?" I almost died.