Now that the Nolan Brothers Are Writing...

[Boom]

You guys think the character of Batman will be written better?

[David Ford, RPD]

You guys think the character of Batman will be written better?

What was wrong with his BB portryal? Besides beign a little talky, I thought the way Goyer and Nolan wrote him was spot on.

[Boom]

What was wrong with his BB portryal? Besides beign a little talky, I thought the way Goyer and Nolan wrote him was spot on.
I really don't know how to explain it. There was just something about the character that bugs me. But I do know this, too many one-liners for my taste. And I'm aware that it's his first year as Batman, but he just seemed careless, almost as if it was just what Alfred said, "thrill-seeking." I like Batman to be cold and calculated, and going into any situation and thinking out all of the possible scenarios.

I'm also not entirely fond of the whole "animalistic" approach they've given Batman. But that's not a writing issue, so I doubt it'll change.

I don't know. It might just be me, but maybe others feel the same way. I've watched the movie alot and once Batman shows up the movie just seems a bit off to me.

[DA Harvey Dent]

I really don't know how to explain it. There was just something about the character that bugs me. But I do know this, too many one-liners for my taste. And I'm aware that it's his first year as Batman, but he just seemed careless, almost as if it was just what Alfred said, "thrill-seeking." I like Batman to be cold and calculated, and going into any situation and thinking out all of the possible scenarios.

I'm also not entirely fond of the whole "animalistic" approach they've given Batman. But that's not a writing issue, so I doubt it'll change.

I don't know. It might just be me, but maybe others feel the same way. I've watched the movie alot and once Batman shows up the movie just seems a bit off to me.

http://x11.putfile.com/11/31310114333.jpg

[Boom]

http://x11.putfile.com/11/31310114333.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8987/yarly384194fe.jpg

[Archangel]

I'll be happy if they kill the one-liners, that crap is never funny.

[Stringer]

Yeah there mightve been too many one liners but I hope they dont get rid of them totally. This is a summer blockbuster afterall and Batman can afford to make the audience laugh ever now and again.

[mcflytrap]

You guys think the character of Batman will be written better?

Well, I thought Bruce and Batman were written extremely well.....I would just like to see it a bit more serious and less one-liners...as well as it NOT go into action movie overdrive at the end.

But BB is still my favorite movie of all time (just barely passing BACK TO THE FUTURE) so I'm not going to complain about it too much.

[CConn]

Why do I get the feeling one day we'll find out Boom brutually murdered David Goyer while wearing a pair of woman's stockings? :(

[_achilles_]

i hope that the nolan brothers make batman more in a way of detective i don't say that there was no detective skill in begins but they can use it a bit more in the sequel

[avatarblade2000]

I'd also like to see Batman show off his detective skills in the next film (that was the one thing, other than not seeing Talia or Ubu in BB, concerning Ras al Ghul's relationship with Bruce: not ONCE did he call him "detective," being Bruce/Batman never really exhibited any real detective skills). My guess is, Bruce is going to take what he can from Fox and Gordon and apply them later on to his crimefighting outings.

I'd like to see it kind of like he was portrayed in BATMAN: THE FRIGHTENING, the first attempt to reboot Batman that the WB almost went with (does anyone remember? The crime-scene where Gordon and Bats are studying everything? I loved that scene to death). Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing that scene retooled and refit into BB2 in 2008.

[The Kid]

Ok so most wants more Sherlock Batman.

Nolan, you got that?

Make batman figure stuff out and kick ass without the comedy. That's what made batman forever and Batman and Robin suck real bad to everyone.

[Boom]

Why do I get the feeling one day we'll find out Boom brutually murdered David Goyer while wearing a pair of woman's stockings? :(
Who's to say I didn't already?

Why do you think he's not writing the script :(:up:?

[Spider-Bite]

Personally i thought Batman felt like Batman from the comic book. Dark angry, furious, scary. In reality meeting a guy dressed like a hero would make you laugh and call them a child. But they pulled it off, and if I met the Batman from Batman Begins in real life, I would probably **** my pants and start crying.

I have only seen the movie 3 times. could you guys remind me? What one liners did he have? I don't remember any.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

He was written nicely.

[Keyser Sushi]

I have only seen the movie 3 times. could you guys remind me? What one liners did he have? I don't remember any.

There really weren't that many, and I think calling them "one-liners" is pushing it a bit, since, out of context, there's no humor to the words at all. The ones I think of off the top of my head are:

"Nice coat."

"Excuse me."

That's it. That's all I can think of. I coulda done without either of those, but they don't bother me, really. Other than those two lines I thought the portrayal of Batman was dead on in BB. The lines like "A taste of your own medicine, doctor?" and "SWEAR TO ME!" were absolutely in character.

Ok so most wants more Sherlock Batman.

Yeah, some more detective stuff would not be bad.

I've watched the movie alot and once Batman shows up the movie just seems a bit off to me.

Wow. That's weird. Your reaction could not be more different from mine. :up:

[The Last Meatbag]

Meh,some of the things like

"YOU RATTLED HIS CAGE" was kinda annoying

I also didnt like how Bale did the voice, I would have liked it a bit more if he did a kind of whisper-y voice like Val Kilmer and Michael Keaton did. I would like Batman to be a bit more creepy a bit more intimidating and he should look like he understands every situation.....thats about it though

[Boom]

Meh,some of the things like

"YOU RATTLED HIS CAGE" was kinda annoying

I also didnt like how Bale did the voice, I would have liked it a bit more if he did a kind of whisper-y voice like Val Kilmer and Michael Keaton did. I would like Batman to be a bit more creepy a bit more intimidating and he should look like he understands every situation.....thats about it though
Yeah, the voice bugs the hell out of me. He sounds like a ruffian. Not nearly as authoritative as he should sound IMHO.

[Keyser Sushi]

Meh,some of the things like

"YOU RATTLED HIS CAGE" was kinda annoying

What could possibly be annoying about that?

I also didnt like how Bale did the voice, I would have liked it a bit more if he did a kind of whisper-y voice like Val Kilmer and Michael Keaton did.

I'd have liked it if Kilmer and Keaton had done a more growly voice like Bale did...

I would like Batman to be a bit more creepy a bit more intimidating and he should look like he understands every situation.....thats about it though

So, basically, he should be exactly like he was in Batman Begins?

[Boom]

So, basically, he should be exactly like he was in Batman Begins?
That's entirely opinion. Your definition of "intimidating" and "creepy" can be completely different than his.

[CConn]

Yeah, the voice bugs the hell out of me. He sounds like a ruffian. Not nearly as authoritative as he should sound IMHO.I...really can't fault Batman for sounding tough. :confused:

[Keyser Sushi]

That's entirely opinion. Your definition of "intimidating" and "creepy" can be completely different than his.

That's true, and obviously, our definitions do differ rather drastically.

That said, I sometimes employ a certain amount of smartassitude. This was one such time.

[Keyser Sushi]

I...really can't fault Batman for sounding tough. :confused:

Preach it, Cap. :up:

[Spider-Bite]

There really weren't that many, and I think calling them "one-liners" is pushing it a bit, since, out of context, there's no humor to the words at all. The ones I think of off the top of my head are:

"Nice coat."

"Excuse me."

That's it. That's all I can think of. I coulda done without either of those, but they don't bother me, really. Other than those two lines I thought the portrayal of Batman was dead on in BB. The lines like "A taste of your own medicine, doctor?" and "SWEAR TO ME!" were absolutely in character.



Yeah, some more detective stuff would not be bad.



Wow. That's weird. Your reaction could not be more different from mine. :up:

Swear to Me was so freaking awesome!

[Boom]

I...really can't fault Batman for sounding tough. :confused:
But when it sounds painfully forced, it loses it's "tough" factor and just sounds ridiculous.

[The Last Meatbag]

I dont really know how to explain it, it just seemed like he didnt have the same bad ass presence he's had in the comics and in TAS, basically like the "you could throw a punch at me right now and Ill take you down kinda attitude" he just seemed like he was just too pissy and stuff.

[Keyser Sushi]

But when it sounds painfully forced, it loses it's "tough" factor and just sounds ridiculous.

It didn't sound forced, though. I'm not even sure what that means. I've heard it a billion times since I joined this board and I can never read it without snorting. "Forced." It's a buzzword like "wooden" acting and "bad editing" and stuff like that. People say these words but they don't even know what they mean, if they mean anything.

If Bale's Batman voice has a fault, it's that it sometimes sounds uneven. Most noticeably, on the train when the tracks are collapsing he says to Ra's, "you never learned to mind your surroundings," the voice goes oddly high in pitch.

But I'm 100% certain that was a creative decision, i.e., it was part of Bale's performance. You know how I know that? Because if it wasn't a creative decision, it wouldn't have been in the movie. No line of dialogue gets into a movie sounding any way other than the way it is intended to sound. There's a wonderful thing called "ADR." If the dialogue recorded during shooting is unclear, or in any way unsatisfactory, they just re-record it.

So that uneven quality in Batman's voice was intentional. I think, given the fact that Batman and Ra's were locked in a wrestling hold of sorts, the voice was supposed to sound as if Batman was straining. 'Cuz he was. 'Cuz Ra's is his equal in combat.

During the Flass interrogation, on the other hand, Batman sounds flat-out evil. When he's talking with Gordon, he just sounds like Batman. When he's in a tight spot, sometimes the voice breaks, as it did on the train.

[Keyser Sushi]

I dont really know how to explain it, it just seemed like he didnt have the same bad ass presence he's had in the comics and in TAS, basically like the "you could throw a punch at me right now and Ill take you down kinda attitude" he just seemed like he was just too pissy and stuff.

Okay, I get what you're saying, but there's a problem with the logic.

What you're saying is that in TAS, Batman had a very stoic presence. He rarely showed much outward emotion, rarely seemed to be anything other than 100% in control.

In BB he shows a bit more emotion in his voice, and sometimes he's not totally in control. Sometimes people get the drop on him and sometimes he gets visibly upset.

That's all absolutely true.

Here's the flaw in the argument:


he didnt have the same bad ass presence he's had in the comics


Batman has been potrayed MANY ways in the comics over the years. Sometimes he is portrayed the way he was in TAS. Sometimes he's not. The comics that BB draws its main inspiration from haved characterized Batman in different ways. In Year One, for instance, Batman screwed up fairly often. He was just starting out, after all. And usually in the comics, even in the Denny O'Neill years (which are another heavy influence on BB) it's not uncommon for people to get the drop on Batman... and Batman has, indeed, shown emotion. He is serious, but he has been portrayed as having a great deal of emotional range. He's nice to children and smooth with the ladies and sometimes he gets supremely pissed and shouts at the bad guys.

Batman in BB is totally consistent with a large number of the comics.

[The Guard]

I do not recall Batman being in control all the time in TAS. At all. I recall scenes where he was, but he was not like that all the time. I remember quite a few outburts of fear, excitement, rage, what have you.

[The Last Meatbag]

Batman has been potrayed MANY ways in the comics over the years. Sometimes he is portrayed the way he was in TAS. Sometimes he's not. The comics that BB draws its main inspiration from haved characterized Batman in different ways. In Year One, for instance, Batman screwed up fairly often. He was just starting out, after all. And usually in the comics, even in the Denny O'Neill years (which are another heavy influence on BB) it's not uncommon for people to get the drop on Batman... and Batman has, indeed, shown emotion. He is serious, but he has been portrayed as having a great deal of emotional range. He's nice to children and smooth with the ladies and sometimes he gets supremely pissed and shouts at the bad guys.

Batman in BB is totally consistent with a large number of the comics.

The Batman I usually read about is the Jeph Loeb Batman, that was probably why there was that flaw in my arguement :o

[Boom]

It didn't sound forced, though. I'm not even sure what that means. I've heard it a billion times since I joined this board and I can never read it without snorting. "Forced." It's a buzzword like "wooden" acting and "bad editing" and stuff like that. People say these words but they don't even know what they mean, if they mean anything.
Snort if you want. I have my own interpretation of what the word means. And for me at least, Bale's Batman voice fits perfectly into the category.

[Keyser Sushi]

I do not recall Batman being in control all the time in TAS. At all. I recall scenes where he was, but he was not like that all the time. I remember quite a few outburts of fear, excitement, rage, what have you.

That's true, actually. When Harvey got blown up, for instance, I remember Batman's "Harvey... nooooo..." as being a very touching emotional moment.

I remember him fighting Croc, or Rhino (one of Scarface's goons) and sometimes getting a look of concern on his face that this big bastard wasn't going down as easy as he'd like.

I'm going to have to reconsider what I said to The Last Meatbag. He was dead wrong on all counts.

However, I will say that I think somehow TAS left us with an abiding image of Batman always being in control even when he obviously wasn't. Somehow it's what we remember first when we think of TAS. That may be something that is totally dependent on the point of view of the audience, but our friend Meatbag is not the only one to come away with this impression. Indeed when I think back on it, the thing I remember most about TAS Batman is the stoic, stalwart figure who always seemed to be in control.

Most interesting...

[Keyser Sushi]

The Batman I usually read about is the Jeph Loeb Batman, that was probably why there was that flaw in my arguement :o

I like Jeph Loeb but I think people tend to kiss his ass a bit much. He seems to have a tendency toward "kitchen sink" stories. By this I mean, his stories often have the proverbial "everything but the kitchen sink" crammed into them. How the guy can write a story called "The Long Halloween" and fit every Batman character known to man, God, and ferret into the thing, is quite beyond my capacity. And then, of course, there's "Hush."

[LastSunrise1981]

Meh,some of the things like

"YOU RATTLED HIS CAGE" was kinda annoying

I also didnt like how Bale did the voice, I would have liked it a bit more if he did a kind of whisper-y voice like Val Kilmer and Michael Keaton did. I would like Batman to be a bit more creepy a bit more intimidating and he should look like he understands every situation.....thats about it though

So flying around the docks scaring the **** out of criminals like a monster isn't creepy? :confused:

[Keyser Sushi]

Snort if you want. I have my own interpretation of what the word means. And for me at least, Bale's Batman voice fits perfectly into the category.

Obviously. But people also think that Christina Aguilera is sexy, and that meat is bad for you.

So, basically, somebody has to be wrong. I guess your number came up. :)

[Boom]

Obviously. But people also think that Christina Aguilera is sexy, and that meat is bad for you.

So, basically, somebody has to be wrong. I guess your number came up. :)
Opinions can't be wrong. Better luck next time :).

[Maxwell Smart]

Actually when Bale's voice goes up during the monorail scene, it sounds to me like it was just Bats getting emotional. I don't think it was his voice accidentally getting higher..

[Keyser Sushi]

Opinions can't be wrong.

Sure they can. They often are. I love how people on discussion boards think they can say that because something is their opinion, it can't be debated. In fact, it can. And usually is.

[Boom]

Sure they can. They often are. I love how people on discussion boards think they can say that because something is their opinion, it can't be debated. In fact, it can. And usually is.
Explain to me how this is debatable.

I didn't like Bale's Batman voice. I thought it sounded forced. It sounded bad to me. It's not how I would've liked it to be.

Considering that is my personal opinion and belief in regards to an element of Batman that is open to free interpretation, how can there be a "right or wrong" to this :confused:???

[Keyser Sushi]

Actually when Bale's voice goes up during the monorail scene, it sounds to me like it was just Bats getting emotional. I don't think it was his voice accidentally getting higher..

Exactly.

[Keyser Sushi]

Explain to me how this is debatable.

Certainly.

I didn't like Bale's Batman voice. I thought it sounded forced. It sounded bad to me. It's not how I would've liked it to be.

I don't debate what you think, I only debate the validity of your opinion. You have not explained what you mean by "it sounded forced." Or in what way it fell short of worthiness for the character. You have only said that you didn't like it. While I don't dispute your right not to like it, I am less interested in what you think than I am in why you think it. This is, after all, a discussion board. And if all you care to do is state your opinion without explaining the reasoning behind it (if any) then it is not edifying to anyone, and is, essentially, a waste of space.

:confused:???

:D!!!

[StorminNorman]

I like Jeph Loeb but I think people tend to kiss his ass a bit much. He seems to have a tendency toward "kitchen sink" stories. By this I mean, his stories often have the proverbial "everything but the kitchen sink" crammed into them. How the guy can write a story called "The Long Halloween" and fit every Batman character known to man, God, and ferret into the thing, is quite beyond my capacity. And then, of course, there's "Hush."

You may be right, but I dont care. I will kiss Jeph Loebs ass all day long. Loeb can do no wrong, ever.

[Boom]

I don't debate what you think, I only debate the validity of your opinion. You have not explained what you mean by "it sounded forced." Or in what way it fell short of worthiness for the character. You have only said that you didn't like it. While I don't dispute your right not to like it, I am less interested in what you think than I am in why you think it. This is, after all, a discussion board. And if all you care to do is state your opinion without explaining the reasoning behind it (if any) then it is not edifying to anyone, and is, essentially, a waste of space.
If you wanted an explanation, all you had to do was ask. But considering I have no time to spare now, I'll address this in detail tomorrow.

[Keyser Sushi]

You may be right, but I dont care. I will kiss Jeph Loebs ass all day long. Loeb can do no wrong, ever.

Hehehehe... well, at least I won't be in your way. ;)


If you wanted an explanation, all you had to do was ask. But considering I have no time to spare now, I'll address this in detail tomorrow.


Aw, but that would've been EASY. :p

Anyway, cool, I'm looking forward to it. :up:

[kytrigger]

In all honesty, I was a little worried at first to hear that Nolan's brother would be writing it with him and Goyer wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I think that Nolan and his brother are very excellent writers, but for some reason, I always felt that Goyer helped keep Nolan grounded in Batman mythos and kept Nolan from deviating too much.

I remember hearing that Nolan didn't want Scarecrow to wear a mask, but Goyer convinced him that it was necessary and that it had a purpose. I know that this is a rather small detail, but I think that it's these small details that helped make BB such a great film.

All I hope for is that IF what I heard above is true, that Nolan feels more comfortable in the Bat-world and doesn't stray too far from it. While I am a little worried, I still have faith that Nolan and Co. will come through and make a great BB sequel.

[Keyser Sushi]

In all honesty, I was a little worried at first to hear that Nolan's brother would be writing it with him and Goyer wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I think that Nolan and his brother are very excellent writers, but for some reason, I always felt that Goyer helped keep Nolan grounded in Batman mythos and kept Nolan from deviating too much.

I remember hearing that Nolan didn't want Scarecrow to wear a mask, but Goyer convinced him that it was necessary and that it had a purpose. I know that this is a rather small detail, but I think that it's these small details that helped make BB such a great film.

All I hope for is that IF what I heard above is true, that Nolan feels more comfortable in the Bat-world and doesn't stray too far from it. While I am a little worried, I still have faith that Nolan and Co. will come through and make a great BB sequel.

I know what you mean. Goyer's a total comic geek and, like you, I really believe that his influence had a lot to do with BB being the faithful Batman movie that it was. Had scarecrow not worn the mask, that would've been... bad.

But Nolan also said that he wanted Goyer writing the sequel, so I was kind of surprised when it came out that Jon Nolan was doing the duty.

I suspect that Goyer will be very much involved, perhaps in a consulting capacity... he may have a "producer" credit or something. I don't think Chris Nolan would want to do it without Dave Goyer's input.

[kytrigger]

I know what you mean. Goyer's a total comic geek and, like you, I really believe that his influence had a lot to do with BB being the faithful Batman movie that it was. Had scarecrow not worn the mask, that would've been... bad.

But Nolan also said that he wanted Goyer writing the sequel, so I was kind of surprised when it came out that Jon Nolan was doing the duty.

I suspect that Goyer will be very much involved, perhaps in a consulting capacity... he may have a "producer" credit or something. I don't think Chris Nolan would want to do it without Dave Goyer's input.

I agree with you (and hope) that Goyer will still be somehow involved (as a producer or something). Everything I have heard from both Nolan and Goyer is that they did enjoy working together and that there were no real problems between the two that would lead to Goyer not coming back.

I think he might not be writing just because he has so many other projects he will be working on (like Flash)...

[Keyser Sushi]

I agree with you (and hope) that Goyer will still be somehow involved (as a producer or something). Everything I have heard from both Nolan and Goyer is that they did enjoy working together and that there were no real problems between the two that would lead to Goyer not coming back.

I think he might not be writing just because he has so many other projects he will be working on (like Flash)...

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. Goyer's actually got a career rolling here... he graduated from writing Blade movies to directing Blade movies, and then graduated from directing Blade movies to writing Batman movies (yes that's a big step up in the world, lol!) and since the success of BB, his talents are undoubtedly in higher demand. Goyer's name has been attached to The Flash for some time now, and I'm sure that, with the success of BB and the general positive vibes and anticipation towards both Superman Returns and the Batman sequel, Warner's is probably keen to get some other DC properties up there on the screen. I imagine they're about to ram a pipe up Joss Whedon's bum if he doesn't get Wonder Woman rolling soon. And Goyer's Flash project is almost certainly a priority.

Basically WB needs Goyer doing Flash, and they need Nolan doing Batman, and they don't want to hold off on one to do the other. I'm sure Goyer will be only a phone call away, though, if Nolan wants to spitball ideas with him, or whatever. So I'm not really too worried about it. I figure that Jon Nolan's a better writer than Goyer, and Goyer is the resident Comic Geek... if Goyer contributes creatively, we're fine, because Jon Nolan can crank out a fine script, no doubts there. So we should have a good movie on our hands in 2008. Never fear.

[StorminNorman]

Another brilliant and spot on poster by Mr. Sushi.

[Herr Logan]

You guys think the character of Batman will be written better?

I sure as hell hope so. I think a lot of Bruce Wayne was done well, and the Batman did well some of the time, but there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement.

[CConn]

I imagine they're about to ram a pipe up Joss Whedon's bum if he doesn't get Wonder Woman rolling soon.Funny you should mention it. Apparently, he's just turned the first draft in.

[RedIsNotBlue]

The character was done very well for an origin movie. You always have to give a little room for origin films. Nolan wants to keep the focus on Batman/Bruce Wayne. You can't hit every mark perfectly in the screentime he gets in one film. That is the whole point of sequels. For the character to grow.

[Keyser Sushi]

The character was done very well for an origin movie. You always have to give a little room for origin films. Nolan wants to keep the focus on Batman/Bruce Wayne. You can't hit every mark perfectly in the screentime he gets in one film. That is the whole point of sequels. For the character to grow.

Wow.... I.... agree with you...?


Funny you should mention it. Apparently, he's just turned the first draft in.


Good, good. A movie where a tall brunette woman, wearing a skimpy costume, kicks the hell out of bad guys. How can a movie like that POSSIBLY fail? :up:


Another brilliant and spot on poster by Mr. Sushi.


Thank you. :) Now that there are actual discussion threads happening again... :D

[CConn]

Good, good. A movie where a tall brunette woman, wearing a skimpy costume, kicks the hell out of bad guys. How can a movie like that POSSIBLY fail? :up:I know, I just can't wait for it to get moving. Until they're actually in production, I'll still have this slight irrational fear WB will abandon that and Flash and make nothing but Batman and Superman movies for the rest of time. :o

[Anita18]

However, I will say that I think somehow TAS left us with an abiding image of Batman always being in control even when he obviously wasn't. Somehow it's what we remember first when we think of TAS. That may be something that is totally dependent on the point of view of the audience, but our friend Meatbag is not the only one to come away with this impression. Indeed when I think back on it, the thing I remember most about TAS Batman is the stoic, stalwart figure who always seemed to be in control.

Most interesting...
I haven't seen TAS in a really long time, but I think that Batman being in control ALL the time is rather unrealistic. Stuff comes up, stuff goes wrong, and what I like to see is how people deal with it, and how Batman deals with it in his own badass manner, LOL. If everything were in control all the time, it'd be like a James Bond movie and I think those are majorly boring....

I also think/hope that Goyer will stay on as a consultant. I'm not huge with the comics like you guys are, but I'd still like the cool references and such to the source material.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Wow.... I.... agree with you...?

Is...that...crazy?? Just because I don't like Bettany for the Joker doesn't mean I am not a well thought out poster. Or was that another undetectable sarcastic post? lol

[CConn]

I haven't seen TAS in a really long time, but I think that Batman being in control ALL the time is rather unrealistic. Stuff comes up, stuff goes wrong, and what I like to see is how people deal with it, and how Batman deals with it in his own badass manner, LOL. If everything were in control all the time, it'd be like a James Bond movie and I think those are majorly boring....Ironically, that's pretty much how it's gotten in the comics.

[Keyser Sushi]

I know, I just can't wait for it to get moving. Until they're actually in production, I'll still have this slight irrational fear WB will abandon that and Flash and make nothing but Batman and Superman movies for the rest of time. :o

Totally understandable. Until BB actually hit theaters, I had this slight irrational fear that WB would never make another DC movie ever again. :D And at this point, having gotten BB and SR... it's still kind of hard to believe that WB may have actually turned into an intelligent decisionmaking entity... fingers crossed, dude, fingers crossed...

Is...that...crazy?? Just because I don't like Bettany for the Joker doesn't mean I am not a well thought out poster. Or was that another undetectable sarcastic post? lol

LOL... yeah pretty much it's that undetectable sarcasm again. I do agree with you, and I'm not used to it, given our Bettany discussions when I first returned to the Hype. I thought my post was amusing. ;)

I haven't seen TAS in a really long time, but I think that Batman being in control ALL the time is rather unrealistic. Stuff comes up, stuff goes wrong, and what I like to see is how people deal with it, and how Batman deals with it in his own badass manner, LOL. If everything were in control all the time, it'd be like a James Bond movie and I think those are majorly boring....

Hi Anita! Well, see... Batman and James Bond have a lot in common. One of the biggest things they have in common is that most people who work on their stories like to do a very poor job of it. Bond should not always be in control - nor should he have a million gadgets. And the same is true for Batman.

Which reminds me, Casino Royale is looking like it might actually kick some ass! *Please don't suck! Please don't suck!* After "Die Another Day" I was ready to write off Bond for dead. Sorta like what happened after "Batman & Robin," except that James Bond has been starring in "Batman & Robin" since Roger Moore took over the role all those years ago. :o

I also think/hope that Goyer will stay on as a consultant. I'm not huge with the comics like you guys are, but I'd still like the cool references and such to the source material.

Good. I don't think we'll be disappointed. If we are, there will be an angry mob. :D

Ironically, that's pretty much how it's gotten in the comics.

Aye. Which is why I don't read any in-continuity Batman comics between Knightfall to present (with the exception of Hush - I'm a sucker for Jim Lee). I'm a 70's, 80's, and early 90's man, myself. :up: Naturally, I'm collecting All-Stars. There could be no words on the page and I'd buy it for Jim Lee's beautiful artwork. That man can draw the ass off of a thing.

[Horror Business]

You guys think the character of Batman will be written better?

Yes, hopefully every bit of dialogue in the movie won't be so expository.

[Horror Business]

Explain to me how this is debatable.

I didn't like Bale's Batman voice. I thought it sounded forced. It sounded bad to me. It's not how I would've liked it to be.

Considering that is my personal opinion and belief in regards to an element of Batman that is open to free interpretation, how can there be a "right or wrong" to this :confused:???

his voice sounded bad to me too. we're right (just kidding).

[batsone]

I'd also like to see Batman show off his detective skills in the next film (that was the one thing, other than not seeing Talia or Ubu in BB, concerning Ras al Ghul's relationship with Bruce: not ONCE did he call him "detective," being Bruce/Batman never really exhibited any real detective skills). My guess is, Bruce is going to take what he can from Fox and Gordon and apply them later on to his crimefighting outings.

. How about when he used the listening device to find out about the plan to kill Rachael?

[Britboy]

I'm split between Bale as Batman and Keaton...............
The more I think about it the more I think that they are both the perfect actor for the time the film came out.....

BB was awesome.....the all round best Batman film I believe....I don't think that much could have been written any different to be make it any better a film.....

The way it has been set up to bring the joker in for the next film is fantastic.....

BB2 or whatever its gonna be called is going to blow everyone away.....

[wikum]

BB2 or whatever its gonna be called is going to blow everyone away.....

I heard Batman : Can't Open The Door is being considered as we speak.
:eek:

[Anita18]

How about Batman: Too Badass to Consider Using a Door? :-p

[patrickbateman]

u dont say

[Keyser Sushi]

How about Batman: Too Badass to Consider Using a Door? :-p

Oooooh. True statement. :)

[Dark Knight]

There really weren't that many, and I think calling them "one-liners" is pushing it a bit, since, out of context, there's no humor to the words at all. The ones I think of off the top of my head are:

"Nice coat."

"Excuse me."

That's it. That's all I can think of. I coulda done without either of those, but they don't bother me, really. Other than those two lines I thought the portrayal of Batman was dead on in BB. The lines like "A taste of your own medicine, doctor?" and "SWEAR TO ME!" were absolutely in character.



Yeah, some more detective stuff would not be bad.



Wow. That's weird. Your reaction could not be more different from mine. :up:


"Nice Coat" was good...

but "Excuse Me" was uncalled for.......

[StorminNorman]

"Nice Coat" was good...

but "Excuse Me" was uncalled for.......

I concur with the Dark Knight

[Keyser Sushi]

"Nice Coat" was good...

but "Excuse Me" was uncalled for.......

I think they're pretty much on par with each other... either can be rationalized adequately, but both of them sort of kill a vibe.

"Nice coat" was good from the standpoint that it acknowledged the homeless guy he met all 7 years ago. Still remembers the guy, isn't Batman wonderful? Plus it's funny. But coming right after the Falcone headbutt you kind ago, "eh?" Timing-wise it's a little dicey.

Same goes for "excuse me." It's said straight-faced, it's a deadpan line, as any Batman joke should be, and he did, after all, just bust into their cell, so it's okay for him to be polite about it... but on the other hand... it seems so totally unnecessary.

I wouldn't miss either of those lines. But I don't let them kill my buzz when I watch the movie. :up:

[Katsuro]

I really dont get why people dont like the "nice coat" and "excuse me" lines. I see no harm in them whatsoever. It's not like they're the lame puns of the past franchise.

[CConn]

I don't get why people care about the "excuse me" line at all. It's sosubtle, and really pointless, you'd have to be uber obsessive to really care about it.

Which of course makes perfect sense give the nature of we fanboys. :o
Aye. Which is why I don't read any in-continuity Batman comics between Knightfall to present (with the exception of Hush - I'm a sucker for Jim Lee). I'm a 70's, 80's, and early 90's man, myself. :up: Naturally, I'm collecting All-Stars. There could be no words on the page and I'd buy it for Jim Lee's beautiful artwork. That man can draw the ass off of a thing.Supposedly, they're fixing that though. I certainly hope they do it correctly. Oh, and I'd highly, highly suggest picking up Batman and the Monster Men. It's not out in TPB yet, but it has just perfect Batman characterization, IMO.

[Ronny Shade]

I really dont get why people dont like the "nice coat" and "excuse me" lines. I see no harm in them whatsoever. It's not like they're the lame puns of the past franchise.
Yeah, like the "Holy rusted metal" line from Forever. Wouldve killed it if it hadnt descended nearly completely into farce already.

[The Guard]

It's scary, Keyser. You're starting to use my tactics, and I'm starting to use yours.

I think they're pretty much on par with each other... either can be rationalized adequately, but both of them sort of kill a vibe.

Agreed.

"Nice coat" was good from the standpoint that it acknowledged the homeless guy he met all 7 years ago. Still remembers the guy, isn't Batman wonderful? Plus it's funny. But coming right after the Falcone headbutt you kind ago, "eh?" Timing-wise it's a little dicey.

It does kind of ruin the tone of him being a vengeful creature of the night and all.

Same goes for "excuse me." It's said straight-faced, it's a deadpan line, as any Batman joke should be, and he did, after all, just bust into their cell, so it's okay for him to be polite about it... but on the other hand... it seems so totally unnecessary.

I have more of a problem with "Nice coat" than I did with "Excuse me". What I had an eensy problem with was the whole storypoint of him using that route of escape, just blowing a hole in their door and cell wall without any thought as to them, I don't know, possibly escaping? I know SWAT was there, but...he couldn't just have blown a hole in a window at the end of the hall or opened and gone out a window or something visually cool and in character? I remember thinking: "How cool would it have been if he was going down the hall and some SWAT guys came up the stairs behind him and he just lept out the window and opened his cloak, gliding down and disappearing into the shadows as they arrived?" Ah well.

I really dont get why people dont like the "nice coat" and "excuse me" lines. I see no harm in them whatsoever. It's not like they're the lame puns of the past franchise.

The past franchise actually had some rather clever puns, I thought, as puns go. It's just that they were delivered as such, and far too frequently.

[Ronny Shade]

Bruce should be the one making the jokes.

[Threshold]

I'd be willing to bet that with both Jonathan and Christopher penning this installment, we will probably get a better rendition of Batman and get a deeper understanding of him. Jonathan Nolan has Memento, The Prestige, and The Exec under his belt as a writer, and while Goyer has more credits to his name, the Blade films and Dollman vs. Demonic Toys don't really compare to the writing that Jonathan's done. I loved Batman Begins to death, my favorite film of the year, but I have a feeling that the movie is going to benefit from this new writing team.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Batman needs a couple corny jokes.

[Rynan]

Can't Batman just have a few deadpan lines? Just make him human?

I think Batman needs a few one liners to keep him from looking like complete tight wad.

[Milkman95]

I think that's what Nolan and Goyer were going for - a little more human and real, hence the "excuse me" and "nice coat".

I think those were the only one-liners really. I didn't like his speech at the end with Gordon about Ra's Al Ghul's plan, it was too talky and he didn't look well.........

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

I agree...there was a right balance in begins..

Although that scene you are talking about jeff..did seem rushed. "this is just the beginning."

then in one big breath blurted out lines..

[Sabretooth]

If there weren't any one-liners people would've complained about BB being too serious. It's not like he was cracking jokes as Batman constantly,like something Spider-Man would do.

[Keyser Sushi]

It's scary, Keyser. You're starting to use my tactics, and I'm starting to use yours.

Hell, man. We used to have some EPIC debates, didn't we? I think we had to learn each others' tactics in order to structure our own arguments. I used to try and trap you, and I know you did that with me, too. And often succeeded. :)

Agreed.

Speaking of scary! I think we used to disagree with each other just for sport. :D

It does kind of ruin the tone of him being a vengeful creature of the night and all.

Yeah, it does. I mean I don't mind Batman having lines like that but the placement of those lines is EVERYTHING. I.E. in "Gotham County Line" when Batman and Gordon are having their first conversation, and then Batman says, "Oh, and Jim -- nice slippers." That ROCKED.

It's like real estate, you know? "Location, Location, Location."

I have more of a problem with "Nice coat" than I did with "Excuse me". What I had an eensy problem with was the whole storypoint of him using that route of escape, just blowing a hole in their door and cell wall without any thought as to them, I don't know, possibly escaping? I know SWAT was there, but...he couldn't just have blown a hole in a window at the end of the hall or opened and gone out a window or something visually cool and in character? I remember thinking: "How cool would it have been if he was going down the hall and some SWAT guys came up the stairs behind him and he just lept out the window and opened his cloak, gliding down and disappearing into the shadows as they arrived?" Ah well.

Yeah, see I agree with that completely. Blowing open the walls like that was reckless, and honestly, lacked finesse. Batman's style is definitely more the window thing. Ninjas usually don't blow open walls. And Batman usually doesn't let crazy people loose on purpose. :o

The past franchise actually had some rather clever puns, I thought, as puns go. It's just that they were delivered as such, and far too frequently.

Yeah, speaking of finesse. TAS had loads of puns, and a lot of them are really slipped in there on the down-low, many of them are delivered totally deadpan, they blend into the dialogue, and depending on your alertness you don't even notice them. And of course there are a few obvious ones. And then poor Dick Grayson had some rather groan-inducing ones, but those were the early episodes and they hadn't quite worked out how to write Robin, so I forgive them...


Supposedly, they're fixing that though. I certainly hope they do it correctly. Oh, and I'd highly, highly suggest picking up Batman and the Monster Men. It's not out in TPB yet, but it has just perfect Batman characterization, IMO.


I'll take that under advisement, Cap. :up: I'm always up for a good Batman story. //Way to state the obvious, Keyser...:o

[Ronny Shade]

Yeah, speaking of finesse. TAS had loads of puns, and a lot of them are really slipped in there on the down-low, many of them are delivered totally deadpan, they blend into the dialogue, and depending on your alertness you don't even notice them. And of course there are a few obvious ones. And then poor Dick Grayson had some rather groan-inducing ones, but those were the early episodes and they hadn't quite worked out how to write Robin, so I forgive them...
I freakin loved the Batman one-liners in TAS. Conroy's just got the perfect voice and delivery:o

[Threshold]

I have no problem with Batman Begins, I think that with Jonathan working on the script, it can be taken to a whole new level.

[Whack Arnolds]

I really don't know how to explain it. There was just something about the character that bugs me. But I do know this, too many one-liners for my taste. And I'm aware that it's his first year as Batman, but he just seemed careless, almost as if it was just what Alfred said, "thrill-seeking." I like Batman to be cold and calculated, and going into any situation and thinking out all of the possible scenarios.
I don't think the character was meant to be potrayed as careless, even though he wasn't. And quite frankly, I really can't even see or consider him as being careless. We all saw him thinking out scenarios within the films finale. Gordon blowing up the monorail tracks was his backup plan. And as you well know, he is a rookie, and part of his mistakes were supposed to be questioned by Alfred so he can be truer to himself and keep his "monster" within check. I thought it was a great balance. Careless is the wrong description. More just like "rookie mistakes". Which made for an interesting first take on Batman.

I'm also not entirely fond of the whole "animalistic" approach they've given Batman. But that's not a writing issue, so I doubt it'll change.Your opinion, which is respectable. I think it brought a good change, and made Batman out to seem alot more threatning and volatile. It also establishes a clear line between this franchise's Batman and the previous one.

I don't know. It might just be me, but maybe others feel the same way. I've watched the movie alot and once Batman shows up the movie just seems a bit off to me.I feel it was good in its entirety. I personally enjoy the build up and background of the characters more, because it takes more time and is rich in character depth. The Batman section was kind of rushed, because they had to fit so much in one movie. I am positive, by the next one they can slow down and even further elaborate on the character of Batman.

[Spider Ham]

So, wait, when did we learn that Jon Nolan was replacing Goyer?

I never heard this.

[CConn]

So, wait, when did we learn that Jon Nolan was replacing Goyer?

I never heard this.Linky: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220571

[Spider Ham]

Oh. Huh.

Guess I should have read that story closer.

I do wish Goyer would stay involved to some extent. I really liked his plot outline for the series.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Oh. Huh.

Guess I should have read that story closer.

I do wish Goyer would stay involved to some extent. I really liked his plot outline for the series.

Well Goyer and Nolan already had something rough written down for the sequel I believe. But they could be starting from scratch who knows.

[CConn]

Goyer and Nolan wrote the treatment. Jonathan (and Christopher?) will write the script.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Goyer and Nolan wrote the treatment. Jonathan (and Christopher?) will write the script.

Yeah so Goyer is still a part of it...kinda.

[GoldGoblin]

Goyer and Nolan wrote the treatment. Jonathan (and Christopher?) will write the script.

^Sounds good to me.

[fabman]

Mheeee!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

WTF?? I don't know. "Batman" '89 was a hit. Almost everybody liked it, "Batman Returns" split the audience in '92, "Batman Forever" was too light for many people (including me) and "Batman & Robin" killed the characters in '97. We kept waiting for a new, darker Batman movie and then, suddenly, in 2003 things were becoming reality. Christopher Nolan, Christian Bale and Co. joined. In 2004 we got the first pictures, they were great. In 2005 we finally got the Batman film we ever wanted!!! I just can't understand you how you keep crying every time about stupid things like this. Christopher Nolan's "Batman Begins" and characters were a modern masterpiece in the fantasy / action cinema just like "Spider-Man" and "Lord of the Rings" are. I just say one thing, Christopher (Nolan) (loool), if you are reading this, make YOUR job like you did with the first film!

[Ronny Shade]

I dont think he's reading this

[Whack Arnolds]

Mheeee!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

WTF?? I don't know. "Batman" '89 was a hit. Almost everybody liked it, "Batman Returns" split the audience in '92, "Batman Forever" was too light for many people (including me) and "Batman & Robin" killed the characters in '97. We kept waiting for a new, darker Batman movie and then, suddenly, in 2003 things were becoming reality. Christopher Nolan, Christian Bale and Co. joined. In 2004 we got the first pictures, they were great. In 2005 we finally got the Batman film we ever wanted!!! I just can't understand you how you keep crying every time about stupid things like this. Christopher Nolan's "Batman Begins" and characters were a modern masterpiece in the fantasy / action cinema just like "Spider-Man" and "Lord of the Rings" are. I just say one thing, Christopher (Nolan) (loool), if you are reading this, make YOUR job like you did with the first film!Batman Forever was actually a REALLY popular film.

[Mr. Socko]

Maybe the brothers will Co-direct and be like the Wachowskis.

[CConn]

I sorta doubt it. If Jonah was interested in directing, he probably would've already done it with Memento or The Prestige.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

At his best, even Batman has a few corny lines in the comics.

Yeah, don't the Rami's kinda work this way too?

[Horror Business]

no corny batman joke will ever be as good as "you weigh a little more than 108."

[Ronny Shade]

no corny batman joke will ever be as good as "you weigh a little more than 108."
Batman can tell how much someone weighs just by looking at them. .....And 23 ways to paralyze or physically incapacitate them.


I gotta admit tho, that was a good one.

[Sandman138]

Why do I get the feeling one day we'll find out Boom brutually murdered David Goyer while wearing a pair of woman's stockings? :(

No, that will be me, and it won't just be stockings... I'm going full on with the corsets, pumps, and diamoned necklace!

[Black Canary22]

Nolan's brother will do an excellent job helming the script. :)

[Dark Knight]

What was wrong with his BB portryal? Besides beign a little talky, I thought the way Goyer and Nolan wrote him was spot on.


i agree...at times Batman was a bit too talky. I also would like to see Batman in the shadows more....especially when it comes to showing his face to Gordon.....

[Spider Ham]

He trusts Gordon. Gordon should be the person he hides from the least.

[Dark Knight]

He trusts Gordon. Gordon should be the person he hides from the least.


still in the comics....his face is hidden alot....using shadows and so forth.

[Mr. Socko]

Nolan's brother will do an excellent job helming the script. :)

I hope so:up:

[Anjow1060]

I think we're screwed. The Bat-curse of the even numbered movies has a strong potential to stike again. Burton did good his first time around, got too much freedom and look at returns (good burton flick, horrible batman movie), then schumacher came in and did an "ok" job with forever, then they gave him the freedom and......well we all know what happened cuz of that. Now Nolan doesn't have goyer on his side, and while goyer was the main reason we had so many one liners (which i didn't mind, we don't need them, but i don't think it hurt the movie) but goyer is also the reason why we had such a strong tie to the comic books in the movie. As a matter of a fact, i do remember, that in an interview with Empire Magazine, Goyer talked about how he had to argue Nolan down about scarecrow having a mask and Batman having a grappling gun and such things of that nature. I'm not 100%, cuz nolan may suprise me, but i see the fall coming and we are in big trouble if the curse strikes again. I don't know if bats can survive another dive in a franchise. Sure sure sure, Goyer wrote the treatment, whoop dee doo. Treatments change, scripts change. We needed Goyer with the script, i could have done with a couple one liners if it ment strong ties to the comic books. But now Nolan has total freedom and I have a really bad feeling about it....

[Mr. Socko]

I agree completely. If it wasn't for Goyer there would not have been a Scarecrow, just a Crane. Nolan didn't seem to know that much about Batman then but now his brother is the writer. So lets all hope his brother is a huge fan of the comics, knows the characters inside out, and is a great writer. Or we're doomed.

[Anjow1060]

I agree completely. If it wasn't for Goyer there would not have been a Scarecrow, just a Crane. Nolan didn't seem to know that much about Batman then but now his brother is the writer. So lets all hope his brother is a huge fan of the comics, knows the characters inside out, and is a great writer. Or we're doomed.

Amen.

[Whack Arnolds]

I agree that apart of me is worried...but I also feel Nolan has a better fundamental understanding of the character than the other directors who screwed it up with too much freedom. I also am pretty confident in the joint treatment both Goyer and Nolan set up for the future installments.

[Mr. Socko]

If this is true then I'll be able to die a happy man.

[Sandman138]

I agree completely. If it wasn't for Goyer there would not have been a Scarecrow, just a Crane. Nolan didn't seem to know that much about Batman then but now his brother is the writer. So lets all hope his brother is a huge fan of the comics, knows the characters inside out, and is a great writer. Or we're doomed.

Yeah, but Goyer also sucks ass as a screenwriter so it's better that we're rid of him.

[Two-Face]

Yeah, but Goyer also sucks ass as a screenwriter so it's better that we're rid of him.

I don't think he "suck ass" and he wrote 80 page draft for the sequel so some of the elements will be from him even th his name might not be credit in the final screen play. Also Nolan knew **** before he ask Goyer to help out cos Goyer is fan just like us only different is he gets his ideas on screen.

[Mr. Socko]

Yeah, but Goyer also sucks ass as a screenwriter so it's better that we're rid of him.

He loves one liners and campy stuff(ex. Blade 3). But he knows comic book characters inside out and thats why he's got a good paying job in Hollywood.

In Begins:

The plot and character depth was Goyer

The mood and feel of the movie was Nolan

If Goyer was directing we'd see something along the lines of Batman Forever, I bet. There'd be a scene where Batman drinks yahoo and says "umm hmm, nothing to it but to do it"

[Mr. Socko]

I don't think he "suck ass" and he wrote 80 page draft for the sequel so some of the elements will be from him even th his name might not be credit in the final screen play. Also Nolan knew **** before he ask Goyer to help out cos Goyer is fan just like us only different is he gets his ideas on screen.

So true. I know some comic books and their characters inside out just like Goyer. But I'm not a good writer, so I might give it a go at Hollywood, if Goyer can do it, I can.

[Whack Arnolds]

So true. I know some comic books and their characters inside out just like Goyer. But I'm not a good writer, so I might give it a go at Hollywood, if Goyer can do it, I can.Let's see how far you get with that, lol. No offense, but bunches of people on here think they can do what the pros do. See Sandman, Motown Marvel, and a bunch of others. Fact is, those people are pros for a reason...they have more talent and ability than you. Goyer single handedly resurrected comic movies when he turned a brillaint script for an unknown comic book character in Blade.

[Sandman138]

I don't think he "suck ass" and he wrote 80 page draft for the sequel so some of the elements will be from him even th his name might not be credit in the final screen play. Also Nolan knew **** before he ask Goyer to help out cos Goyer is fan just like us only different is he gets his ideas on screen.

His sense of structure is weak, his dialouge is nothing but exposition, and he throws in a lot of needless elements.

[Sandman138]

Let's see how far you get with that, lol. No offense, but bunches of people on here think they can do what the pros do. See Sandman, Motown Marvel, and a bunch of others. Fact is, those people are pros for a reason...they have more talent and ability than you. Goyer single handedly resurrected comic movies when he turned a brillaint script for an unknown comic book character in Blade.

I've worked on films that got into Palm Springs Film Festivals. I'm not a "pro" but I'm not a dip**** either so you can take your bull**** and shove it. There are enough of us on here that work in and have ties to the industry. What are your credentials?

[Mr. Socko]

Let's see how far you get with that, lol. No offense, but bunches of people on here think they can do what the pros do. See Sandman, Motown Marvel, and a bunch of others. Fact is, those people are pros for a reason...they have more talent and ability than you. Goyer single handedly resurrected comic movies when he turned a brillaint script for an unknown comic book character in Blade.

I was joking but I'm pretty darn sure there are a few people here who could write just as good if not better then Goyer. Oh and Goyer didn't resurrect comic book movies, Avi Arad did.

Do you know how many people on this board could direct a Batman movie better then Schumacher?

But to tell the truth, I thought Blade 3 was funny :up:

[patrickbateman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64sP-TpVuk&search=the%20batman
^
i hope they do that some day

[Mr. Socko]

Is that really legal?

[Anjow1060]

Oh lord, not the "robin thing" again.


And for the writer part, I'm another one of those "un-talented" film makers you were speaking of. Yeah, they are pros, but ya know something, they're human. And one day, they're gonna die. And when they die, the movies don't die with them. Other people, like us, grow up and make films too and become pros. So don't go slandering other people cuz you never know who on these boards could be writing a good movie script. For all we know, the dumb studio execs could have some wild ideas like "Lets get a fanboy to write script! They know the material and we could pay them less!"......sounds stupid? These are the same people that greenlighted B&R.

I rest my case.

[Whack Arnolds]

I've worked on films that got into Palm Springs Film Festivals. I'm not a "pro" but I'm not a dip**** either so you can take your bull**** and shove it. There are enough of us on here that work in and have ties to the industry. What are your credentials?I'm not the one professing to be better than a pro, in David Goyer...so what would my writing credentials have to do with anything? And what films have you worked on that went into "Palm Springs Film Festivals"? What exactly was your involvement with them? If David Goyer is a dip****, wouldn't that make you even further below dip****? He gets paid the bigger bucks for a reason, correct?

[Mr. Socko]

WHO said Dave Goyer is a dip****? Being a bad writer doesn't make you a dip****

For all we know, the dumb studio execs could have some wild ideas like "Lets get a fanboy to write script! They know the material and we could pay them less!"......sounds stupid? These are the same people that greenlighted B&R.


So true. Daredevil ring a bell to anyone? Mark Steven Johnson is a huge Daredevil and comic book fanboy. Daredevil was the first movie he'd ever directed. And he comes to these forums too. Oh and his first movie was leaps ahead of Schumacher's Bat-crap.

[Keyser Sushi]

Batman Begins >>>>>>> Daredevil.

[Mr. Socko]

Thats 'cause

Nolan>>>>>>>>>>>>>MSJ

[Keyser Sushi]

Thats 'cause

Nolan>>>>>>>>>>>>>MSJ

True, true. :up:

[Sandman138]

I'm not the one professing to be better than a pro, in David Goyer...so what would my writing credentials have to do with anything? And what films have you worked on that went into "Palm Springs Film Festivals"? What exactly was your involvement with them? If David Goyer is a dip****, wouldn't that make you even further below dip****? He gets paid the bigger bucks for a reason, correct?

18 Minutes: Editor, Color Corrector, and Sound Design

I've also worked for a screenwriting seminar known as Cinestory and have had discussions with Michelle Sy, Barri Evans, and quite a few others. I had the same conversations with them about Batman Begins, and while some of them felt it was a decent movie, they also felt that my complaints were valid.

I never said that I was better than Goyer, but that doesn't mean he's any good. People get recognition for lots of different reasons, and they don't always deserve it. That argument is weak. You can't tell me that since Goyer gets money that makes him a writer on par with someone like Alvin Sargent, Lawrence Kasdan, or even David Hayter.

[Sandman138]

Batman Begins >>>>>>> Daredevil.

Of course. But what does that really say?

[Whack Arnolds]

18 Minutes: Editor, Color Corrector, and Sound Design

I've also worked for a screenwriting seminar known as Cinestory and have had discussions with Michelle Sy, Barri Evans, and quite a few others. I had the same conversations with them about Batman Begins, and while some of them felt it was a decent movie, they also felt that my complaints were valid.

I never said that I was better than Goyer, but that doesn't mean he's any good. People get recognition for lots of different reasons, and they don't always deserve it. That argument is weak. You can't tell me that since Goyer gets money that makes him a writer on par with someone like Alvin Sargent, Lawrence Kasdan, or even David Hayter.

All I was saying is he is alot better than you. And he turned out a pretty good script, for a pretty damn good film in Batman Begins.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Thats 'cause

Nolan>>>>>>>>>>>>>MSJ

Well I would rather say WB>>>>>Fox :)

[Stringer]

True, Batman Begins was a very well written script a lot of people that read it wish that Nolan wouldve kept in some of the things he left out from the script.

[Mr. Socko]

All I was saying is he is alot better than you. And he turned out a pretty good script, for a pretty damn good film in Batman Begins.

Do you know Sandman, have you read any of his scripts? And even if he wasn't that good, that wouldn't make Goyer alot better than him.

[StorminNorman]

Batman Begins >>>>>>> Daredevil.

ehh, I would say Batman Begins (is only) > Daredevil Directors Cut, I think the two films are very similar in the way they take super heros and try to through them into a more realistic world - and they both work very well IMO. I loved the Daredevil DC (my third favorite comic movie behind Begins and V).

[StorminNorman]

Do you know Sandman, have you read any of his scripts? And even if he wasn't that good, that wouldn't make Goyer alot better than him.

actually it would make it a lot better than him. :D
- Grammar Harvey Denthttp://www.stars2go.com/s/liev-schreiber/liev_schreiber.jpg (http://www.stars2go.com/s/liev-schreiber/liev_schreiber.jpg)

[Keyser Sushi]

ehh, I would say Batman Begins (is only) > Daredevil Directors Cut, I think the two films are very similar in the way they take super heros and try to through them into a more realistic world - and they both work very well IMO. I loved the Daredevil DC (my third favorite comic movie behind Begins and V).

Heya, Norm! Where ya been, buddy?

I have to admit I haven't seen the Daredevil DC... mostly because the TC didn't do much for me to begin with, so I didn't really feel the need to see the DC. I liked Daredevil, but I just didn't FEEL it, for some reason. And I kept flashing back to Burton's Batman movies, for some reason... :confused:

[StorminNorman]

Heya, Norm! Where ya been, buddy?

I have to admit I haven't seen the Daredevil DC... mostly because the TC didn't do much for me to begin with, so I didn't really feel the need to see the DC. I liked Daredevil, but I just didn't FEEL it, for some reason. And I kept flashing back to Burton's Batman movies, for some reason... :confused:

You should really check out the DC. I enjoyed the TC the first time I saw it (and the few times I saw it on HBO), but it wasnt anything spectacular. I then saw the DC and I dont know, I was very impressed. It shows more detail in the investigation of the Kingpen and is all together more dark and gritty.

[Mr. Socko]

MCD's Kingpin was cool. But I didn't like Daredevil TC at all, DC was pretty good.

[StorminNorman]

I knew nothing about the character of Daredevil before the movie came out, nor did I have any bias against Afleck so I think that may of let me enjoy the movie more.

[Mr. Socko]

I had new nothing about the character of Daredevil before the movie came out, nor did I have any bias against Afleck so I think that may of let me enjoy the movie more.

Same here. I didn't start reading Daredevil comic till after The DC.

[Keyser Sushi]

I had new nothing about the character of Daredevil before the movie came out, nor did I have any bias against Afleck so I think that may of let me enjoy the movie more.

Holy After-Prom Party! She must've boinked your grammar skills right out of your head, GrammarHarv!

ANYway... I had never read a Daredevil comic (still haven't) and I have nothing against Ben Affleck, but I just didn't think that much of the movie. However, a friend of mine has the DC, so I suppose I ought to give it a try sometime...

[StorminNorman]

Holy After-Prom Party! She must've boinked your grammar skills right out of your head, GrammarHarv!

ANYway... I had never read a Daredevil comic (still haven't) and I have nothing against Ben Affleck, but I just didn't think that much of the movie. However, a friend of mine has the DC, so I suppose I ought to give it a try sometime...

Ew, that was just...eww..sorry about that bastardization of the English language.

You should really try it, I give it :up: :up:

[Keyser Sushi]

Ew, that was just...eww..sorry about that bastardization of the English language.

That's not a denial of my allegations, btw. :D

You should really try it, I give it :up: :up:

Okay, here goes: I had wished u would of tole me 2... oh, never mind, I can't take it any longer.

Oh, wait... you meant try the DD: DC. :o

:D

[Mr. Socko]

You've never read a Daredevil comic? Then you should enjoy the DC.

Have you ever seen the Punisher?

[Keyser Sushi]

You've never read a Daredevil comic? Then you should enjoy the DC.

Have you ever seen the Punisher?

Yeah! I was discussing that in one of these threads with Ronny a few days ago...

[Whack Arnolds]

Do you know Sandman, have you read any of his scripts? And even if he wasn't that good, that wouldn't make Goyer alot better than him.That's not the point. That's like saying someone who plays in the D-League is better than someone in the Majors, lol. He's doing short little festival films for a reason. And the ones he contributed to he wasn't even writing the script. He thinks he is one of these "Film Elite-ists", where everything they say is gospel, etc. etc. I don't need to read one of his scripts to know that David Goyer is already WAY better than him. Because if he was even close to David Goyer's level, one of his scripts would not have been just made into a major motion picture, but would also have to be GOOD. Sandman hasn't done that yet. I'm tired of seeing him ragging on people who are obviously more talented people than he'll ever be.

[Whack Arnolds]

Anyone can analyze say a Batman movie, after they read the script and then see the outcome of the product, and then say they can do better. I can watch Kobe Bryant score 81 points, then say "hmm, I could do that, and do it even more effeciently", when that is obviously not the case...because if I could, I would be in his position.

[Sandman138]

Anyone can analyze say a Batman movie, after they read the script and then see the outcome of the product, and then say they can do better. I can watch Kobe Bryant score 81 points, then say "hmm, I could do that, and do it even more effeciently", when that is obviously not the case...because if I could, I would be in his position.

Did I say I could do better? No. I said it was a flawed script that did not reach the potential it could have based on the concept. A better writer could have made it worked, I never said I was that writer so shut your mouth and learn to read an argument. You also have no idea about what is involved in editing if you think that an editor has no concept of story. Editing is considered to be baisically the third re-write of a script (the shooting script being the 1st, and the production being the 2nd). You have no concept of screenwriting or filmmaking at all, so I guess you ragging on me has no merit by your philosophy.

[Whack Arnolds]

Did I say I could do better? No. I said it was a flawed script that did not reach the potential it could have based on the concept. A better writer could have made it worked, I never said I was that writer so shut your mouth and learn to read an argument. You also have no idea about what is involved in editing if you think that an editor has no concept of story. Editing is considered to be baisically the third re-write of a script (the shooting script being the 1st, and the production being the 2nd). You have no concept of screenwriting or filmmaking at all, so I guess you ragging on me has no merit by your philosophy.Did I say an editor has no concept of story? Where did I say this? All I said was it was not your principal script (which is the story's creation)..as to which the movie was made out of. Every script has flaws, they ALL have flaws. That doesn't negate the fact that it was still a really strong script, and an obvious better story than any of the prior Batman films. Everything can be better, so you can't measure it on it's "potential", more so on what it became. I don't have to know the ins and outs of filmaking to understand that.

[Sandman138]

Did I say an editor has no concept of story? Where did I say this? All I said was it was not your principal script (which is the story's creation)..as to which the movie was made out of.

And thus I have no right to comment on writing by your standards. The implication being that I have no concept of story and writing, when as an editor I have to have a very strong concept of story and writing so that I can decide what works for the story, what has to be left out, and what has to change to make the story work. An editor is a writer, you don't acknowladge that.

Every script has flaws, they ALL have flaws. That doesn't negate the fact that it was still a really strong script,

Some flaws are more glaring than others. Begins had very noticable flaws and it was not a strong script. The content was certianly strong (the themes and ideas) but the execution (structure, presentation, dialouge) was weak. The Graduate is a strong script, Dog Day Afternoon is a strong script, 12 Angry Men is a strong script, and, in terms of super hero movies, the X-Men films have had reletivly strong scripts. You may not like the content, but that is a subjective point, how it is presented can usually be judged at least somewhat objectivly.

and an obvious better story than any of the prior Batman films.

That it has already proven to be debatable, negates this argument.

Everything can be better, so you can't measure it on it's "potential", more so on what it became. I don't have to know the ins and outs of filmaking to understand that.

Well, if you understand what the film was trying to get across, and see where it either didn't get it across or didn;'t do so elegantly then, yes, you can measure it on its potential.

[Whack Arnolds]

And thus I have no right to comment on writing by your standards. The implication being that I have no concept of story and writing, when as an editor I have to have a very strong concept of story and writing so that I can decide what works for the story, what has to be left out, and what has to change to make the story work. An editor is a writer, you don't acknowladge that.In essence, yes the editor is a form or an extension of the writer.
Some flaws are more glaring than others. Begins had very noticable flaws and it was not a strong script. The content was certianly strong (the themes and ideas) but the execution (structure, presentation, dialouge) was weak. The Graduate is a strong script, Dog Day Afternoon is a strong script, 12 Angry Men is a strong script, and, in terms of super hero movies, the X-Men films have had reletivly strong scripts. You may not like the content, but that is a subjective point, how it is presented can usually be judged at least somewhat objectivly.Ok, I can agree with that.
That it has already proven to be debatable, negates this argument.True, this was my opinion comming through. I apologize.
Well, if you understand what the film was trying to get across, and see where it either didn't get it across or didn;'t do so elegantly then, yes, you can measure it on its potential.Potential is completely subjective though, right?

[Octoberist]

I love Batman Begins. The overall story was well written. Maybe it needed a polish, espically with some of the comedic parts ("Nice Coat").

I loved Falcone's introduction speech. Very well written. BUt then he becomes a stupid stereotypical mob boss afterwards.

[Sandman138]

Potential is completely subjective though, right?

Good point, I concede to that.

[kenellard]

Personally i thought Batman felt like Batman from the comic book. Dark angry, furious, scary. In reality meeting a guy dressed like a hero would make you laugh and call them a child. But they pulled it off, and if I met the Batman from Batman Begins in real life, I would probably **** my pants and start crying.

I have only seen the movie 3 times. could you guys remind me? What one liners did he have? I don't remember any.

there seems to be no end to this kind of talk in reference to begins. Ok guys let's be serious for a second, batman isn't "scary", he wouldn't make you "***t" your pants, in fact the only emotion I could muster when seeing bale hamming it up on screen was embarrassment. I don't care what they do with BB2, just as long as they drop all that "I'm a scary animal, woooooo!" crap.

[StorminNorman]

there seems to be no end to this kind of talk in reference to begins. Ok guys let's be serious for a second, batman isn't "scary", he wouldn't make you "***t" your pants, in fact the only emotion I could muster when seeing bale hamming it up on screen was embarrassment. I don't care what they do with BB2, just as long as they drop all that "I'm a scary animal, woooooo!" crap.

So you are saying that if you were a thug during the Warehouse scene and out of nowhere a shadow starts picking off your comrads one by one, you wouldn't be crapping your pants?

[kenellard]

That part I do get, but then the entire scene is ruined by the limo part "I'm batman! (and I have a sore throat)" and "nice coat". Also, how can everyone ignore the fact that they pulled this "animalistic" batman from nowhere, while leaving out some of the most important characteristics of batman, i.e. detective skills, the ability to be cool and calculating etc. my hope is they build on (or forget about) the BB characterization of bats, it was just so overwraught and corny

[Two-Face]

That part I do get, but then the entire scene is ruined by the limo part "I'm batman! (and I have a sore throat)" and "nice coat". Also, how can everyone ignore the fact that they pulled this "animalistic" batman from nowhere, while leaving out some of the most important characteristics of batman, i.e. detective skills, the ability to be cool and calculating etc. my hope is they build on (or forget about) the BB characterization of bats, it was just so overwraught and corny


This Batman a rookie who makes mistakes all the way hence the title "BEGINS" I can understand Nolan might not have detective skills yet since he's just started but still done detective skills like questioning Flass, or discovering "Narrows" at Akham where he meets Crane yet you say no detective skills in my opinion that's still detective work but I'm sure in sequel we see Batman doing his cool stuff since they told Batman's origin in the film.

[David Ford, RPD]

That part I do get, but then the entire scene is ruined by the limo part "I'm batman! (and I have a sore throat)" and "nice coat". Also, how can everyone ignore the fact that they pulled this "animalistic" batman from nowhere, while leaving out some of the most important characteristics of batman, i.e. detective skills, the ability to be cool and calculating etc. my hope is they build on (or forget about) the BB characterization of bats, it was just so overwraught and corny

Batman should learn his detective skills, as opposed to knowing how to do everything from the start.

[kenellard]

and the "animalistic" characterisation? It was either Nolan's idea or Bale's, or so the hype before the movie stated, and frankly, that just aint batman

[The Batman]

Nolan's not dumb. He realized he needed someone who knew the comics. Like already mentioned, his brother is probably bringing goyers treatment to a script version. Goyer was needed, because he was able to bring much of the comics to life. He's also good at action. so mix that with the Nolan's complex writing abilities, and we may have a winner.

For Spider-Man 3, Raimi got his brother too, and Alvin Sargent. Neither of them, as far as I know, are die hard comic fans. Sargents only writing because he can write relationships between two people.

[Sandman138]

And that's what made Spider-Man 2 a good movie, Sargent's ability to write beleivable relationships. I've got no problem with a comic book writer helping to develop the ideas for a story, but screenwriting is an entirely different animal.

[Sandman138]

and the "animalistic" characterisation? It was either Nolan's idea or Bale's, or so the hype before the movie stated, and frankly, that just aint batman

I like it. It's definatly part of Batman. He dresses like a bat to take on the petrifying characteristics of the animal. In a sense, he is doing what many mythic cultures do in rituals, taking on the qualities of animals by wearing their skins or visages. The animalistic quality is definatly Batman.

[Anjow1060]

I think the whole "animalistic" thing was to completley rid people of Schumacher's batman in their mind. The stark contrast of a intense crazy @$$ Batman to the nipple latex boy we had before was to just get people back into the swing of things. And Idk why everyone is complaining about his "Detective side". He interoggated a suspect, he went to a couple of shady areas (ie: the apartment in the narrows) and he eavesdropped on a couple of conversations. The dude was doing his research and thinking things through. Not to mention he's just starting out. He made tons of mistakes in the movie, which is what I loved. He screwed up a lot, he was just a novice, he's not yet completley the Batman we all know and love, prepared for everything and all-knowing. He's gotta get a little experience under his belt before he realizes everything. Once he's completley Batman it wouldn't make the movies as interesting. I like the fact that he's screwing up and learning as he goes along. Emphasizes his "humanistic" qualities as opposed to other hero's who just "know how to do everything they want to do". And as far as making fun of the way he acted/talked, it's easy to say all that "he's lame and sounds like an idiot" on a fanboy message board where as in a dark alley if some crazy guy in a bat suit drops out of the sky and starts screaming in my face, beating the **** out of me and stringing me upside down............I'd be pretty scared and you would too. But go talk tough and macho like you're all big and bad, it makes no differance to me how big your ego is.

[Cinemaman]

I trust Nolan brothers and have no doubts.

But I cant understand one thing, will Nolan make sequel???

[kenellard]

... And as far as making fun of the way he acted/talked, it's easy to say all that "he's lame and sounds like an idiot" on a fanboy message board where as in a dark alley if some crazy guy in a bat suit drops out of the sky and starts screaming in my face, beating the **** out of me and stringing me upside down............I'd be pretty scared and you would too. But go talk tough and macho like you're all big and bad, it makes no differance to me how big your ego is.

That's the worst argument I've ever heard in defense of Bale's performance! The thing is some crazy guy IS NOT going to drop out of the sky and start beating on anyone, whereas Bale's performance WAS at times overdone, and he DID sound like an idiot, fair enough when he's screaming at guys and stuff, but can anyone honestly say they don't cringe every time they hear Bale during the rooftop scene with Rachel?

[ragdus]

I don't cringe at that scene.

Honestly.

[Ronny Shade]

neither do i

[kenellard]

I've tried to like this movie so much, and for the most part I just can't. I think there could eventually be some "episode I" syndrome creeping in, when people realise BB wasn't the best flim ever, or even the best bat-film, oh well, I dunno

[Anjow1060]

I've tried to like this movie so much, and for the most part I just can't. I think there could eventually be some "episode I" syndrome creeping in, when people realise BB wasn't the best flim ever, or even the best bat-film, oh well, I dunno

No way, and the only reason that was the "worst argument" you ever heard was b/c it was aimed at you and your ego. Of course a freaking guy in a batsuit isn't gonna jump out of the sky at you, it's a MOVIE, it's FAKE! But if some crazed fanboy actually ever did go off his rocker, lift massive amounts of weights and made a batman suit and jumped off a overhang and landed on top of you in some alley dark at night and slammed you against the wall it damn sure would.



And as far as the other quote a couple posts above said "in the nolan brothers i trust", i say "in no one i trust" given our previous track record with directors getting comfy with batman.

[kenellard]

No way, and the only reason that was the "worst argument" you ever heard was b/c it was aimed at you and your ego. Of course a freaking guy in a batsuit isn't gonna jump out of the sky at you, it's a MOVIE, it's FAKE! But if some crazed fanboy actually ever did go off his rocker, lift massive amounts of weights and made a batman suit and jumped off a overhang and landed on top of you in some alley dark at night and slammed you against the wall it damn sure would.
.

I never said a word about not being scared of a real life batman, but you say "of course it won't happen" then "but if it did", wtf?! I was only trying to make the point that while watching the movie (it's a movie!) Bale did seem to be forcing his bat-voice, especially in the scenes where it wasn't necessary, like when he was talking to gordon or rachel

[super scar]

But it was necessary. He knows Rachel and there's a possibility he might meet Gordon as an adult again too. It's not easy disguising your voice from someone that's been a childhood friend.

[mcflytrap]

So you are saying that if you were a thug during the Warehouse scene and out of nowhere a shadow starts picking off your comrads one by one, you wouldn't be crapping your pants?

For god's sakes, the man comes out of the ****ING SHADOWS!!! **** YOUR PANTS THUGS **** YOUR PANTS!!

I'd cry like a baby.

[GEDRedemption]

HAHA! He believes in the Apocropha!!!

[Ronny Shade]

I've tried to like this movie so much, and for the most part I just can't. I think there could eventually be some "episode I" syndrome creeping in, when people realise BB wasn't the best flim ever, or even the best bat-film, oh well, I dunno
bah.

While Batman Begins wasn't a PERFECT film it was a very very good one, and certainly head and shoulder above what anybody else has ever done with Batman before.

[kenellard]

Ok, so how come he was still talknig like a jackass while revealing his identity to rachel on the rooftop?

[Ronny Shade]

Ok, so how come he was still talknig like a jackass while revealing his identity to rachel on the rooftop?
he was never talking like a jackass.

and he was using his Bruce voice.

[kytrigger]

Ok, so how come he was still talknig like a jackass while revealing his identity to rachel on the rooftop?

Because he was probably in his "Batman" frame of mind. It's like how some athletes before a game get into a completely different mindset. They can be the nicest people in the world, but will become total *******s before and during a game. That voice is part of his mindset.

[Whack Arnolds]

For the record, Batman did use detective skills...

Searching vacant apartment, in attempt to research the drugs being stashed in the teddy bears and bunnies...

Putting the pieces together with the monorail, microwave emitter, and fear gas...

We saw a mindful Batman, with a contigency plan of Gordon blowing up the end of the tracks before the monorail can get to Wayne Station...

Yet he still made quite a few rookie mistakes:
- too reckless running from the GPD (confronted about it by Alfred)
- not being mindful enough of Crane when he is in the abandoned apartment, thus getting set ablaze...
- being cornered by the police in Arkham Asylum...

I thought it was a perfect mix of character development and conflict for a rookie Batman.

[explode7]

And what would you say for a professional batman?

[Whack Arnolds]

And what would you say for a professional batman?What do you mean?