The Official WONDER WOMAN Discussion Thread

[Drz]

I stopped supporting Bendvengers years ago and have branched up to other non-Bendis Avengers titles in the past. It's not like that has anything to do with your first sentence, though. Or really anything to do with this, for that matter :/

I'm talking about the overreacting people, not the rational minds such as yourself. All i'm saying is, that even tho over half the people here are claiming this is the worst thing ever. They will still check out the comic, and once they see the writing, they will (hopefully) fall in love with it. JMS did tell IGN.com that "and the old fans. Please give me 2 issues a chance and i promise you're sold" which is high and mighty of him to say. He seems very confident about this. I'm just overly happy i get to read a WW comic with myth beings in it, and now a small slice of mysticism with Amazons being placed in a city area.

[Tron Bonne]

My problem is that reverting Wonder Woman back to normal is written right into the premise of JMS' run, yet people are acting like it's a permanent change. JMS basically came out and said 'I'm putting Wonder Woman in an alternate universe where everything's different, and she's going to try to put everything back to normal.' This was greeted by fans saying 'How dare he change Wonder Woman.' It's like everyone is ignoring his promise to change stuff back. And even when you acknowledge that he's going to change everything back, you're convinced your least favorite elements of the change will stick around.

I think, in the end, the changes he makes to Diana's character won't be any more significant or noticeable than any other writers'. Because let's face it, every single person who writes Wonder Woman tries to redefine her character, but she's always the same person at the core.

Well, now come on, you have to give a little more credit than that. I admit I am skeptic towards how much of this will be reverted back in full, but I base most of this on the ideas JMS presented. I am acknowledging his promise to revert back, but I'm also acknowledging everything else he said along with said promise, which included him saying these new elements might stay if they ring popular, and the overall nature of his ideas towards the franchise.

I mean, is that really so unreasonable? I've kept myself in check, as I've said I take it with a grain (like I do all statements from editors and writers in this industry); even though I plan to sit out the alternate timeline story I said I would keep my ears to the ground post-timeline fix to see what did, and did not, stick. A lot of my skepticism comes from the analogy that I used with Bendvengers. It's a lot of the same idea; street-level, dark, 'gritty', and that kind of stuff that apparently readers want nowadays. That really wasn't just a fad or got a quick fix (it's just now, 5 fives later, that we're getting a main series that's suppose to be more along the 'roots' of the franchise).

I mean, you are totally right about other writers and this being just an alternate reality type of deal, but it doesn't mean that it can't, in any way or form, be a springboard for those type of changes once continuity finds itself back on track. I mean, I'll gladly come in and eat crow with 'told you so' sauce smothering it if it's all flushed with no effects of note, but I don't see my skepticism as completely unwarranted personally. But I fully acknowledge that I could be totally wrong.

But nobody seems to care about whether or not Diana's character will remain mostly in tact. Everyone's flipping out about the costume. Speaking as a fan of Storm from the X-Men, that sounds like an incredibly petty thing to complain about constantly.Well, that was always my main concern. I guess I probably take this costume change a little more than others because it undercuts an element of the character I like and feel is important (though, I guess most modern comic writers and readers disagree with me), but I don't care that much. If everything is fixed except the costume, my interest would still come back all the same, because I know it's something that ultimately will not stick when everything is said and done.

I'm talking about the overreacting people, not the rational minds such as yourself. All i'm saying is, that even tho over half the people here are claiming this is the worst thing ever. They will still check out the comic, and once they see the writing, they will (hopefully) fall in love with it. JMS did tell IGN.com that "and the old fans. Please give me 2 issues a chance and i promise you're sold" which is high and mighty of him to say. He seems very confident about this. I'm just overly happy i get to read a WW comic with myth beings in it, and now a small slice of mysticism with Amazons being placed in a city area.

I know, but to be fair, it's not like he's going to say 'Okay, old fans, **** you and everything you like, this is the new **** and it's better than any crap you ever had or will have' in such blunt terms; JMS wants to retain PR I believe. I mean, really, only Grant Morrison does that :awesome:

[Kurosawa]

I'm talking about the overreacting people, not the rational minds such as yourself. All i'm saying is, that even tho over half the people here are claiming this is the worst thing ever. They will still check out the comic, and once they see the writing, they will (hopefully) fall in love with it. JMS did tell IGN.com that "and the old fans. Please give me 2 issues a chance and i promise you're sold" which is high and mighty of him to say. He seems very confident about this. I'm just overly happy i get to read a WW comic with myth beings in it, and now a small slice of mysticism with Amazons being placed in a city area.

Well, at least he's giving the previous fans lip service. I don't trust him myself but then again I trust no writers other than Morrison and Brubaker.

[Kurosawa]

You want to know the sad truth about what JMS said? If his issues sell well enough, he'll have been right. Wonder Woman will have needed a new costume and a change in tactics to writing the character in order to garner new readers. Put a new costume and promises of an all-new Wonder Woman in the newspapers, and the people will come.

And then he'll revert most of Wonder Woman's status quo back to normal, creating new readers of the character as you know her. Sure she'll be wearing a different costume, but... I don't know how else to say it. Get over it. I'm getting tired of people talking about how much they hate her new costume, then turning around and saying they think it'd look good on Donna or Cassie-- that's basically admitting that the suit doesn't look bad. That, or they hate Donna and Cassie.

I don't like the costume period and I don't like Cassie's lack of a real superhero looking costume, or Conner's either. Donna's costume is awesome to me.

People always overreact here Manic. It's like Bendis and Avengers. People constantly whine about him, yet they still for god knows whatever reason decide to keep supporting Bendis' Avengers instead of just sticking with the other Avengers titles they could read instead.

Bendis is a big reason I don't read Marvel apart from Cap.

My problem is that reverting Wonder Woman back to normal is written right into the premise of JMS' run, yet people are acting like it's a permanent change. JMS basically came out and said 'I'm putting Wonder Woman in an alternate universe where everything's different, and she's going to try to put everything back to normal.' This was greeted by fans saying 'How dare he change Wonder Woman.' It's like everyone is ignoring his promise to change stuff back. And even when you acknowledge that he's going to change everything back, you're convinced your least favorite elements of the change will stick around.

I think, in the end, the changes he makes to Diana's character won't be any more significant or noticeable than any other writers'. Because let's face it, every single person who writes Wonder Woman tries to redefine her character, but she's always the same person at the core.

But nobody seems to care about whether or not Diana's character will remain mostly in tact. Everyone's flipping out about the costume. Speaking as a fan of Storm from the X-Men, that sounds like an incredibly petty thing to complain about constantly.

Her costume is iconic, while Storms is not. But it is something of an overreaction because they've changed it before. It's just more the total lack of a clue when it comes to WW that annoys me, both from JMS and DC.

[Manic]

In fairness, practically nobody gets Wonder Woman. That's why most fans say only 3 people have written her correctly since the 1980's. JMS says he tried to write Wonder Woman the same as everyone else, and he got complaints about getting her sense of humor wrong. I can see why he'd rather choose to write an alternate timeline version of Diana first. Wonder Woman fans are harder to please than X-fans.

[Kurosawa]

That I can agree with-but I think a bigger problem with WW is DC themselves don't understand her and she only has a book due to contractual obligations that DC has to fulfill in order to keep the rights. Batman is the only one of the big 3 that DC gets, and a large part of why they do is that they are financially motivated to get his books right.

Basically...follow the money.

[Manic]

Even Batman is a case of trial and error. There are about half a dozen different ways to write the character, depending on what decade you're in and the color of his cape. Even Drz will defend Frank Miller's Batman that kidnaps children and tells them to eat rats.

[hippie_hunter]

I think DC gets Superman as well. He's an easy character to understand. The problem is that he often gets uninspiring writers to do things with him and it's tough to write exciting stories with him.

If DC didn't get him I think we would have gotten more Brian Azzarellos or Mark Millars on the character.

[TheComicbookKid]

In fairness, practically nobody gets Wonder Woman. That's why most fans say only 3 people have written her correctly since the 1980's. JMS says he tried to write Wonder Woman the same as everyone else, and he got complaints about getting her sense of humor wrong. I can see why he'd rather choose to write an alternate timeline version of Diana first. Wonder Woman fans are harder to please than X-fans.

That wasn't the main complaint I read about that story. The fact WW was passive about doing something to stop it was. And using that false emotional chord for the story.

[Tron Bonne]

I think DC gets Superman as well. He's an easy character to understand. The problem is that he often gets uninspiring writers to do things with him and it's tough to write exciting stories with him.

If DC didn't get him I think we would have gotten more Brian Azzarellos or Mark Millars on the character.

Wat :dry:

I mean, I can give you that a lot of modern writers seem to struggle with it, but really...it's not tough to write exciting stories with him, at least no tougher than any other hero.

That wasn't the main complaint I read about that story. The fact WW was passive about doing something to stop it was.

Are we talking about that Brave and the Bold issue?

[Kurosawa]

To me Superman as he stands now and has been for years bears little to no resemblance to what Siegel created or intended, while Batman is a natural evolution of Finger's character even though they've eliminated details to my chagrin. Superman is in a really crappy flux period at the moment. Although I didn't like the Post-Crisis version as it wasn't Siegel's character at ALL at least it was pretty consistent up until the electric crap. So basically Supes has been flopping around for 13 years. Still, that's better than WW who hasn't had a consistent character or direction since Byrne took the book over IMO. (I felt the Post-Crisis version was fairly consistent until then). WW is ALWAYS in flux...it's murder on a character to be like that. Pre-Crisis she was always a mess too. 40+ years of being in flux.

A large part of where my views come from is the early 70's revival of Batman where O'Neil went back to Batman's roots for inspiration. The idea that when dealing with a character it is vital to look at what made it popular in the first place and look at how the creators depicted them is essential to me. Another thing that I felt was important was for the companies to acknowledge their histories, and with the total lack of real continuity any more, that just doesn't happen. There aren't many historians like Bridwell or Rozakis in today's comics field, and some of the guys who actually know anything are pushed out the door like Waid.

[TheComicbookKid]

My problem is that reverting Wonder Woman back to normal is written right into the premise of JMS' run, yet people are acting like it's a permanent change. JMS basically came out and said 'I'm putting Wonder Woman in an alternate universe where everything's different, and she's going to try to put everything back to normal.' This was greeted by fans saying 'How dare he change Wonder Woman.' It's like everyone is ignoring his promise to change stuff back. And even when you acknowledge that he's going to change everything back, you're convinced your least favorite elements of the change will stick around.

I think, in the end, the changes he makes to Diana's character won't be any more significant or noticeable than any other writers'. Because let's face it, every single person who writes Wonder Woman tries to redefine her character, but she's always the same person at the core.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'll say the point that irks me about JMS' magically reverting WW is the fact he slammed the regular WW in doing so. You are acting like this dust storm kicked up after he just wrote the story. What Mark Waid was getting at in his tweet, just do your job.

Don't justify your changes by saying the WW some people know and love is ossified. Her pocketless costume makes no sense, and the mythology is hampering other writers, and how her sales have fallen because her backstory is inpenetrable to new fans. Especially when that WW is coming back. He isn't just telling some cool WW story, he's trying to fix WW. So all the things he's saying is basically, "your WW is broken, this is how you fix it. But I'll put it back broken again?"

Check this interview with Brubaker on Cap 1. He turns Cap into an espionage book and does so without saying anything about the sales slump or what other writers haven't done. He just changed the tone.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=21784


And I'm not saying he's wrong about his reasonings.

Are we talking about that Brave and the Bold issue?

Yep.

[Kurosawa]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'll say the point that irks me about JMS' magically reverting WW is the fact he slammed the regular WW in doing so. You are acting like this dust storm kicked up after he just wrote the story. What Mark Waid was getting at in his tweet, just do your job.

Don't justify your changes by saying the WW some people know and love is ossified. Her pocketless costume makes no sense, and the mythology is hampering other writers, and how her sales have fallen because her backstory is inpenetrable to new fans. Especially when that WW is coming back. He isn't just telling some cool WW story, he's trying to fix WW. So all the things he's saying is basically, "your WW is broken, this is how you fix it. But I'll put it back broken again?"

Check this interview with Brubaker on Cap 1. He turns Cap into an espionage book and does so without saying anything about the sales slump or what other writers haven't done. He just changed the tone.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=21784

He was a Richard about it, no doubt. And wtf does WW need pockets for? She's not going out to Applebee's for lunch, she's kicking ass.

[Tron Bonne]

To me Superman as he stands now and has been for years bears little to no resemblance to what Siegel created or intended, while Batman is a natural evolution of Finger's character even though they've eliminated details to my chagrin. Superman is in a really crappy flux period at the moment. Although I didn't like the Post-Crisis version as it wasn't Siegel's character at ALL at least it was pretty consistent up until the electric crap. So basically Supes has been flopping around for 13 years. Still, that's better than WW who hasn't had a consistent character or direction since Byrne took the book over IMO. (I felt the Post-Crisis version was fairly consistent until then). WW is ALWAYS in flux...it's murder on a character to be like that. Pre-Crisis she was always a mess too. 40+ years of being in flux.

A large part of where my views come from is the early 70's revival of Batman where O'Neil went back to Batman's roots for inspiration. The idea that when dealing with a character it is vital to look at what made it popular in the first place and look at how the creators depicted them is essential to me. Another thing that I felt was important was for the companies to acknowledge their histories, and with the total lack of real continuity any more, that just doesn't happen. There aren't many historians like Bridwell or Rozakis in today's comics field, and some of the guys who actually know anything are pushed out the door like Waid.

I think another factor that's helped the character continue being so successful is that he fits so well with what's 'in' with today's audiences. He's this street-level, 'gritty', dark avenger that beats the crap out of the bad guys; people eat that **** up nowadays.

[Kurosawa]

I think another factor that's helped the character continue being so successful is that he fits so well with what's 'in' with today's audiences. He's this street-level, 'gritty', dark avenger that beats the crap out of the bad guys; people eat that **** up nowadays.

Yeah, that's true, but part of why people eat it up in Batman's case is because it's usually fed to them so well. People loved Superman when Jurgens was on it and Supes was this incredibly heroic badass fighting Doomday to the death.

[Tron Bonne]

Yep.

I guess his writing of her didn't make much of an impression, because I only vaguely remember it. I thought she only had a pretty small role anyway

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, that's true, but part of why people eat it up in Batman's case is because it's usually fed to them so well. People loved Superman when Jurgens was on it and Supes was this incredibly heroic badass fighting Doomday to the death.

Very true, it does have a lot to do with the serving itself

[Drz]

Even Drz will defend Frank Miller's Batman that kidnaps children and tells them to eat rats.

I just actually had a debate how Miller's Batman in All-Star Universe figured out Superman can fly, while Superman is too dumb. I love my god damn Batman and his god damn orange juice! :awesome::awesome::awesome:

Anyhow, i can understand people being worried how JMS is trying too hard or well, the main idea that he (among other writers) just try and fix her, but ofcourse they wish to try this with having new fresh ideas to take new spins. Just like Morrison, who wanted new fresh innovation to the Batman franchise, which helped the sales, even tho Batman is pretty much always selling good.

[hippie_hunter]

Wat :dry:

I mean, I can give you that a lot of modern writers seem to struggle with it, but really...it's not tough to write exciting stories with him, at least no tougher than any other hero.
It's a lot easier to write stories about the badass Batman than the straight laced Superman. It's really hard to find a balance between straight laced and exciting.

[kguillou]

Eh i dunno about that, Superman can be just as badass as batman. I mean he's Superman! The one thing i love about superman is that he's sort of like Spider-man, which is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Spider-man is the humble, everyman of the marvel universe yet he's beaten just about every hero on several occasions. Supes wouldnt hurt a fly but if you piss him off then you better pray he gives you mercy.I feel like not enough writers let Superman cut loose and show how incredibly badass he really is.

[hippie_hunter]

Superman is not supposed to be badass. He should be cool and whatnot, but not a badass.

[Tron Bonne]

Well, that just depends on your definition of 'badass'. Most readers and writers nowadays look at Wolverine and Batman as 'badass', but badassery is not just limited to a little guy in the shadows drooling and screaming about the 'cause' or 'the beast within'.

[ultimatefan]

I'm talking about the overreacting people, not the rational minds such as yourself. All i'm saying is, that even tho over half the people here are claiming this is the worst thing ever. They will still check out the comic, and once they see the writing, they will (hopefully) fall in love with it. JMS did tell IGN.com that "and the old fans. Please give me 2 issues a chance and i promise you're sold" which is high and mighty of him to say. He seems very confident about this. I'm just overly happy i get to read a WW comic with myth beings in it, and now a small slice of mysticism with Amazons being placed in a city area.

It´s all great, but JMS has a bit of a habit to blow his own horn a little too much, he also talked about spider-totem and Sins Past like they were going to be the greatest thing ever prior to release.

Yet I know what he means about fanboys, they keep b****ing about not getting fresh and different things, yet when you give them something that even attempts to be fresh and different, and temporarily, and they freak out like a Jehovah Witness seeing someone wipe his butt with the Bible.

[Manic]

I find that most fanboys don't want anything new, fresh, or different. Most constantly whine about how they want the same ol' crap from a previous writer, under a new writer. I'm convinced I could please a bunch of Wonder Woman fans by writing one of Rucka's stories all over again with the characters switched around. A single voice of dissent would call me out on it, but several fans would say something like, "I haven't enjoyed Wonder Woman this much since Rucka."

[Tron Bonne]

Well, not to derail the whole 'hate all fanboys' talk or anything, but I think to be fair, something being 'new, fresh, or different' does not always equate good. I mean, yeah, I think people should be more open to new things and all that jazz, but change is not always a good thing.

Good example for me (and I know some people liked it, but I never cared for it), was JMS whole Spider Totem retcon for Spider-Man. I'm not dogmatic or anything, but I still didn't care much for it for a lot of reasons, even if the storyline was kind of interesting. Probably even a better example for the whole is the whole Superman Red/Blue stuff. That was something new and fresh (I mean, sure, the idea was from a much older storyline, but it played a lot different), but most people seem to agree it wasn't the best of ideas and such.

I don't really see a problem with just wanting some standard Wonder Woman stories trying to be told without a writer trying to 'define' her or 'fix' her or 'tell radical stories' or what have you.

[hippie_hunter]

It´s all great, but JMS has a bit of a habit to blow his own horn a little too much, he also talked about spider-totem and Sins Past like they were going to be the greatest thing ever prior to release.

Yet I know what he means about fanboys, they keep b****ing about not getting fresh and different things, yet when you give them something that even attempts to be fresh and different, and temporarily, and they freak out like a Jehovah Witness seeing someone wipe his butt with the Bible.

JMS has actually come out and said that he was very disappointed in how Sins Past turned out and wanted to retcon it away in One More Day but Quesada wouldn't let him.

And I honestly believe that the Other was another editorial mandated storyline considering how it was a crossover with other Spider-Man titles and it "coincidentally" gave Spider-Man organic webshooters.

[Tron Bonne]

JMS has actually come out and said that he was very disappointed in how Sins Past turned out and wanted to retcon it away in One More Day but Quesada wouldn't let him.

And let's thank God for that. I hate Sins Past and all, but bringing back Gwen and literally resetting the status quo to that time period would have been far worse than what we actually got

And, really, if you want to blame anyone for not letting him, it was apparently more the other writers of the 'Spidey Trust' that petitioned against it. Joey Q originally green lite JMS' idea

[Manic]

Well, not to derail the whole 'hate all fanboys' talk or anything, but I think to be fair, something being 'new, fresh, or different' does not always equate good. I mean, yeah, I think people should be more open to new things and all that jazz, but change is not always a good thing.

That's all well and good until you run across someone who thinks all change is bad. For example, I liked Diana's relationship with Tom, but there's a vocal section of WW fandom who believe Diana should be a perpetual virgin.

[ultimatefan]

That´s part of what is killing superhero comics, the fans get so stuck up on a specific perception of what the character is - even though there have been a hundred different takes on said character - that even changes that might be very natural and organic if you see the changes in time and tastes and all, or at least are very minor, some people freak out about them like it´s the end of the world.

[Tron Bonne]

Well, yes, of course, change can be good as well. I just see these 'enlightened fan' types and various writers throwing that type of talk around a lot with the implication that new is always better, when it's not. For all the Alan Moore's Swamp Thing there's a Superman Red/Blue or a Rise of Arsenal lurking in the shadows. Like I said, I do think certain bits of the fandom need to be more open to ideas, but I can understand why some people are less inclined toward Wonder Woman, since it seems these sweeping changes and such have been a constant for years.

Though, yeah, I never got the the whole 'WW needs to be a virgin thing'. I mean, I get people see her as this type of Athena-like figure, but the culture she knows is much more open to sex. I kind of have a hard thing thinking she would never have sexual relations.

[ultimatefan]

Well, yes, of course, change can be good as well. I just see these 'enlightened fan' types and various writers throwing that type of talk around a lot with the implication that new is always better, when it's not. For all the Alan Moore's Swamp Thing there's a Superman Red/Blue or a Rise of Arsenal lurking in the shadows. Like I said, I do think certain bits of the fandom need to be more open to ideas, but I can understand why some people are less inclined toward Wonder Woman, since it seems these sweeping changes and such have been a constant for years.

Though, yeah, I never got the the whole 'WW needs to be a virgin thing'. I mean, I get people see her as this type of Athena-like figure, but the culture she knows is much more open to sex. I kind of have a hard thing thinking she would never have sexual relations.

Don´t get me wrong, I know changes can often suck - don´t get me started on One More Day -, problem is I often feel like a lot of fans can´t tell the difference between a truly fresh and interesting take and a dumb gimmick. A lot of fans called Death Of Gwen Stacy or Dark KNight Returns Blasphemous back at the day. Heath Ledger´s Joker has become an icon and yet some people can´t overlook "where´s the electic buzz?"

[Kurosawa]

Superman is not supposed to be badass. He should be cool and whatnot, but not a badass.

He devolved into not being a badass but as originally conceptualized and written by Siegel, Supes had an edge and to bring that back would not be a case of them just pulling something out of their ass. Nor was cutting his power, which is why I never had a huge issue with that.

Basically I feel if a writer can't write Superman because he's too noble, too married, too powerful, whatever...direct him to the Batman editor and find another writer who CAN handle him.

[Kurosawa]

Superman is not supposed to be badass. He should be cool and whatnot, but not a badass.

He devolved into not being a badass but as originally conceptualized and written by Siegel, Supes had an edge and to bring that back would not be a case of them just pulling something out of their ass. Nor was cutting his power, which is why I never had a huge issue with that.

Basically I feel if a writer can't write Superman because he's too noble, too married, too powerful, whatever...direct him to the Batman editor and find another writer who CAN handle him.

And among my complaints about the WW thing isn't that it's something new...because it's not, unless 1968 is new to you. My complaint is it is yet ANOTHER new direction for a character that has had way too many of them.

[hippie_hunter]

And let's thank God for that. I hate Sins Past and all, but bringing back Gwen and literally resetting the status quo to that time period would have been far worse than what we actually got

And, really, if you want to blame anyone for not letting him, it was apparently more the other writers of the 'Spidey Trust' that petitioned against it. Joey Q originally green lite JMS' idea
Even without bringing back Gwen Stacy, JMS wanted to retcon away Sins Past to where even where she was still dead, the whole Norman having sex with Gwen Stacy and the Stacy Twins would be gone.

He flat out hates how Sins Past turned out and even said that he was pissed off that Marvel editorial would not let him retcon that story away.

As for bringing Gwen Stacy back, if they brought back Harry Osborn, why not bring back Gwen? Not only that but her death no longer makes sense now. How can she have died without Norman Osborn knowing who Spider-Man is?

The whole, everyone knows that they used to know who Spider-Man is but can't remember anymore is one of the stupidest excuses ever. Why aren't people outraged about that?

[Tron Bonne]

Even without bringing back Gwen Stacy, JMS wanted to retcon away Sins Past to where even where she was still dead, the whole Norman having sex with Gwen Stacy and the Stacy Twins would be gone.

He flat out hates how Sins Past turned out and even said that he was pissed off that Marvel editorial would not let him retcon that story away.

As for bringing Gwen Stacy back, if they brought back Harry Osborn, why not bring back Gwen? Not only that but her death no longer makes sense now. How can she have died without Norman Osborn knowing who Spider-Man is?

The whole, everyone knows that they used to know who Spider-Man is but can't remember anymore is one of the stupidest excuses ever. Why aren't people outraged about that?

According to Joey Q, JMS wanted to reset the status quo back to before Gwen died, with Peter dating her and MJ and Harry together (I can't remember if it was as far as them being married or not). Joey Q green-lite the idea originally, but the other writers petitioned against it, mostly because of Gwen's return, which has no business happening, but also because it sodomized continuity even more so than what happened. As far as I'm aware, JMS has never outright denied this claim and has stuck with simply displeasure on the final product.

By your logic, they should have brought back Uncle Ben to make him a supporting cast member, because really, her death is a companion piece to his in a lot of ways. It's kind of irrelevant if Norman remembers who he killed Gwen for, since it's most relevant to Spidey. And, even more frankly, Gwen Stacy wasn't much of an interesting character. The best thing she did was die. And, really, I'm pretty sure most didn't feel as if Harry should have returned either (and, really, they barely did anything of note with him anyway).

And, I'm not sure how to address your last question. Are you seriously asking it? I mean, I assume you were here and other places when OMD hit? People were 'outraged' at that. It was one of the main points of criticism towards the entire deal. Even when they revealed the whole 'psychic blind spot' people still were facepalming all over the place :huh:

My main point was basically that JMS may have been under editorially mandate, but his original OMD idea was basically ****, and I'm glad he didn't get his way. Sure, it kind of sucks that Sins Past didn't get a direct recton, but hell, it's not like that was referenced outside that Sins Remembered arc in Sensational anyway. For the most part, that arc is forgotten in the sense of continuity.

Anyway, we don't need to turn this into an OMD thing or anything since this is the Wonder Woman thread (I probably went too far anyway, but I figured the points needed to be addressed). You want to address this further, we'll move it to the ASM thread in the Marvel board.

[Manic]

The whole, everyone knows that they used to know who Spider-Man is but can't remember anymore is one of the stupidest excuses ever. Why aren't people outraged about that?

Every time someone on the Hype expresses outrage at that little snafu, Dan Slott himself springs up to defend it.

[BrianWilly]

SHHHH! :cmad: Are you mad?? You'll summon him if you speak his name too loudly!







Anypoop, at this point I'm beyond caring about this whole thing. If it sucks, it sucks. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[kguillou]

I find that most fanboys don't want anything new, fresh, or different. Most constantly whine about how they want the same ol' crap from a previous writer, under a new writer. I'm convinced I could please a bunch of Wonder Woman fans by writing one of Rucka's stories all over again with the characters switched around. A single voice of dissent would call me out on it, but several fans would say something like, "I haven't enjoyed Wonder Woman this much since Rucka."

I think it really depends on the change because there have been a few changes that have occurred recently that the fans applauded. One example is Daredevil, when he became the new leader of the Hand, i seem to recall most fans,including myself, applauding that change as it seemed to be the logical next step for the character. I think most fans were in favor of Ironman gaining the Extremis powers as well. It all depends on the change really. If its a change that seems like it could be the next step for the character, the fans generally tend to be for it. If the change seems to be a step backwards, then yeah the fanbase becomes a bit skeptical. I believe that fans DO want new stories, but they want stories that move the character forward not backwards.

[CLARKY]

the 600th issue was quite good in my opinion. from a consumer point of view, several stories, pictures of different artists including Perez and Jimenez, quite cool.
I may not be original but I dislike the new look. Sure the corset is cool, the belt too. more practical, sure. but the overall look is bad. I can smell "movie coming" behind this, to a certain degree. I'm ok with a change when it is not so drastic. Improve the belt ok, improve the corset, ok, but this is clearly too much, especially when I thought the uniform was already good. Actually. I find it completely outrageous (no pun intended) and revolting. But I suppose I would be considered as a brainless hater, so I just say that I found this pretty pretty bad. :down:

Basically I feel if a writer can't write Superman because he's too noble, too married, too powerful, whatever...direct him to the Batman editor and find another writer who CAN handle him.
I could not be more agreed with this. :up:
And I think that is the point with Superman, not a lot of people know what noble, virtuous means. It is easier to play the badass attitude with a bat mask. And accentuate the bad sides more than the good ones.

[Mystirious]

My main point was basically that JMS may have been under editorially mandate, but his original OMD idea was basically ****, and I'm glad he didn't get his way. Sure, it kind of sucks that Sins Past didn't get a direct recton, but hell, it's not like that was referenced outside that Sins Remembered arc in Sensational anyway. For the most part, that arc is forgotten in the sense of continuity.

That does sound even worse than what we got in One More Day:csad:

[hippie_hunter]

According to Joey Q, JMS wanted to reset the status quo back to before Gwen died, with Peter dating her and MJ and Harry together (I can't remember if it was as far as them being married or not). Joey Q green-lite the idea originally, but the other writers petitioned against it, mostly because of Gwen's return, which has no business happening, but also because it sodomized continuity even more so than what happened. As far as I'm aware, JMS has never outright denied this claim and has stuck with simply displeasure on the final product.
JMS has said that his original plan was to bring back Gwen but they struck that down. But he still wanted to get rid of Sins Past regardless if she came back or not. He flat out hates how Sins Past turned out.

By your logic, they should have brought back Uncle Ben to make him a supporting cast member, because really, her death is a companion piece to his in a lot of ways. It's kind of irrelevant if Norman remembers who he killed Gwen for, since it's most relevant to Spidey. And, even more frankly, Gwen Stacy wasn't much of an interesting character. The best thing she did was die. And, really, I'm pretty sure most didn't feel as if Harry should have returned either (and, really, they barely did anything of note with him anyway).
They should both be dead. It seems kinda cheap that Harry came back and yet Gwen is still dead.

And, I'm not sure how to address your last question. Are you seriously asking it? I mean, I assume you were here and other places when OMD hit? People were 'outraged' at that. It was one of the main points of criticism towards the entire deal. Even when they revealed the whole 'psychic blind spot' people still were facepalming all over the place :huh:
I mean the people of the Marvel Universe. I mean, don't you think that people would dwell on the fact that absolutely no one remembers who Spider-Man is anymore even though they remember seeing him unmask and reveal his name to the world.

My main point was basically that JMS may have been under editorially mandate, but his original OMD idea was basically ****, and I'm glad he didn't get his way. Sure, it kind of sucks that Sins Past didn't get a direct recton, but hell, it's not like that was referenced outside that Sins Remembered arc in Sensational anyway. For the most part, that arc is forgotten in the sense of continuity.]
Nope, the Stacy twins are back in the American Son mini. And I think that JMS would have never written One More Day to begin with if it weren't for Quesada demanding that the marriage be gotten rid of. The man brought Peter and MJ back together and did a fantastic job writing them.

Anyway, we don't need to turn this into an OMD thing or anything since this is the Wonder Woman thread (I probably went too far anyway, but I figured the points needed to be addressed). You want to address this further, we'll move it to the ASM thread in the Marvel board.
True.

[ultimatefan]

He devolved into not being a badass but as originally conceptualized and written by Siegel, Supes had an edge and to bring that back would not be a case of them just pulling something out of their ass. Nor was cutting his power, which is why I never had a huge issue with that.

Basically I feel if a writer can't write Superman because he's too noble, too married, too powerful, whatever...direct him to the Batman editor and find another writer who CAN handle him.

I wouldn´t retcon the origin, but I´d love to see an alternate reality type of story where Supes was raised in an orphanage, cuz that´s how Siegel initially wrote him.

[TheCorpulent1]

SHHHH! :cmad: Are you mad?? You'll summon him if you speak his name too loudly!







Anypoop, at this point I'm beyond caring about this whole thing. If it sucks, it sucks. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
A healthy attitude to take toward any comic. For example, I find myself worried but not really caring one way or another about Matt "I can't make Iron Man exciting" Fraction's run on Thor. Fraction's a big name so it'll probably still sell; if it sucks, I'll just put it out of my mind when his successor comes along. That's one of the good things about the neverending format of superhero comics--nothing will be good forever, but by the same toke, nothing will be bad forever either.

[Kurosawa]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic
I find that most fanboys don't want anything new, fresh, or different. Most constantly whine about how they want the same ol' crap from a previous writer, under a new writer. I'm convinced I could please a bunch of Wonder Woman fans by writing one of Rucka's stories all over again with the characters switched around. A single voice of dissent would call me out on it, but several fans would say something like, "I haven't enjoyed Wonder Woman this much since Rucka."

JMS story is nothing new. It's what they did in 1968-depowered Diana, put her in street clothes fighting in the streets with martial arts and with a mysterious mentor.

I wouldn´t retcon the origin, but I´d love to see an alternate reality type of story where Supes was raised in an orphanage, cuz that´s how Siegel initially wrote him.

Could be cool. I think they didn't mention the Kents due to space limitations since the 39 origin had them, but it's still a cool Elseworlds/What If?

[Kurosawa]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic
I find that most fanboys don't want anything new, fresh, or different. Most constantly whine about how they want the same ol' crap from a previous writer, under a new writer. I'm convinced I could please a bunch of Wonder Woman fans by writing one of Rucka's stories all over again with the characters switched around. A single voice of dissent would call me out on it, but several fans would say something like, "I haven't enjoyed Wonder Woman this much since Rucka."

JMS story is nothing new. It's what they did in 1968-depowered Diana, put her in street clothes fighting in the streets with martial arts and with a mysterious mentor.

I wouldn´t retcon the origin, but I´d love to see an alternate reality type of story where Supes was raised in an orphanage, cuz that´s how Siegel initially wrote him.

Could be cool. I think they didn't mention the Kents due to space limitations since the 39 origin had them, but it's still a cool Elseworlds/What If?

[Manic]

I was speaking in general. I saw people complain about Simone changing Diana's origin in The Circle, even though it technically didn't change her origin.

Still, back in the 60's they didn't make a storyline out of Wonder Woman losing her powers and going on a journey to get them back again. People seem to be forgetting that part of JMS' story has Diana trying to restore things back to normal. This is more like Wonder Woman's Age of Apocalypse or the obligatory "mirror universe" episode of every sci-fi show ever made.

JMS is changing things initially to draw people in, then putting things back to normal at the end of this storyline. It's obvious. I don't know why no one else can see it. When things are put back to normal, 2 things will probably happen:
1. Wonder Woman's characterization will be a blend of her "traditional" characterization and the "new" version who grew up in the streets. And frankly, we don't even know what the new version of Diana is like yet, except that she didn't have a lot of patience when she asked to see the oracle.
2. The new costume might stick around, or some version of it. However, Wonder Woman is not her costume. And while I'd prefer a different costume, it's not ugly, 90's, or trying too hard to be edgy just because she's wearing a jacket. Black Canary has been wearing a jacket since the 40's. At worst, her new costume looks like a blend of Wonder Wonder's and Black Canary's.

[Drz]

Quote:
JMS story is nothing new. It's what they did in 1968-depowered Diana, put her in street clothes fighting in the streets with martial arts and with a mysterious mentor.



Except that 68s Diana wasn't trying to figure out why the Gods had done this to her, neither we're the Amazons living in a city with Sandman-esque mysticism. So yes JMS story IS new, you just chose to IGNORE the new aspects in favor of ignorant whining. :p

[Ultimate_Superman]

Every time someone on the Hype expresses outrage at that little snafu, Dan Slott himself springs up to defend it.

SHHHH! :cmad: Are you mad?? You'll summon him if you speak his name too loudly!







Anypoop, at this point I'm beyond caring about this whole thing. If it sucks, it sucks. If it doesn't, it doesn't.I don't care if Dan Slott shows up or not. I will say it The Other, SOTP, OMD, and BND are all pieces of crap that is not even fit for me to wipe my butt with. They took away Spider-Man's marriage to Mary Jane for what? So he can kiss the Black Cat or have drunken sex with someone. They should all be ashamed of themselves and then they did it for the dumbest reason of all. So you can save Aunt May a woman who is at the end of her life span anyways and was already killed off in a respectful manor only to be brought back again. What the writers did was ruin Spider-Man for me and many other readers and they should be ashamed of themselves. Then this OMIT thing is suppose to fix all of that and make you understand why they never married but I don't care they never should have been broken up in the first place. It's much like what Kurosawa said if you don't know how to write a married Superman then go find someone who can the same could be said for Spider-Man. There are somethings you should not do and Marvel has broken the mold on Spider-Man breaking all the rules and that's why they will not receive another drop of my money till they fixed the wrong that they have done. I am just not going to stand for it.

[Kurosawa]

Except that 68s Diana wasn't trying to figure out why the Gods had done this to her, neither we're the Amazons living in a city with Sandman-esque mysticism. So yes JMS story IS new, you just chose to IGNORE the new aspects in favor of ignorant whining. :p

It's not new. The excuse for it is maybe new to WW although they've messed with her memories and origin before, but the main goal of the story-getting her out of her classic costume into street clothes and on the streets is a redo of the 1968 revamp.

See, I'm never against anything new with any character...DC's problem is they don't go forward as much as they go back and change characters pasts. That's a lot of why their series are weighted down so much. Instead of the 30 millionth retconned origin, I'd rather they take characters into places and situations that they haven't been before. JMS did this to a degree on Thor, so I know he's not completely incapable of it, and his WW isn't as infuriating as his Superman but I still can't say I'm impressed at all. And WW goes through too many new directions. I just hope once this mess is over and done with a new writer who respects and knows the WW mythos comes in.

And yeah, same goes for Spidey as Supes. They got married, deal with it, and if the writers can't deal with it, replace them. You can't put the cat back into the bag.

[TheCorpulent1]

Clearly, "One More Day," Barry Allen's return, and a host of other things have proven you can.

[Ultimate_Superman]

Clearly, "One More Day," Barry Allen's return, and a host of other things have proven you can.
Other things I don't agree with when Wally was just fine as the Flash. There was no need for Barry's return and he barely did anything in Final Crisis was over used in Blackest Night and Rebirth's delays killed any momentum he had much like what Johns did with Last Son. And once again OMD never happened in my mind you skip over OMD and go into Spider Girl and there is just a big gap in time on how we got there.

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, that's one way to do it. Alas, the hundreds of thousands of readers who've kept Amazing Spider-Man's sales quite healthy after "One More Day" provide Marvel with all the ammunition they need to shoot that argument down.

Granted, JMS' Wonder Woman seems different from "OMD" in that it sounds like JMS has a very clear plan for Diana to return to normal eventually.

[Tron Bonne]

Except that 68s Diana wasn't trying to figure out why the Gods had done this to her, neither we're the Amazons living in a city with Sandman-esque mysticism. So yes JMS story IS new, you just chose to IGNORE the new aspects in favor of ignorant whining. :p

And, yet, I've told you about three times now they did this 'Sandman-esque' thing (or whatever you want to call it) when they sorta of urbanized WW under Loeb-Messner in the '90s, and Diane trying to figure out why and how the Gods are screwing around is definitely nothing new. Sounds like you might be doing some ignoring of your own to make JMS' idea sound more fresh than it really is :o

[Drz]

Oopsie daisy. :(

[Tron Bonne]

Oopsie daisy. :(

Well, I guess to be completely fair, this is the first time I can recall where Wonder Woman has grown up in a sewer like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle :oldrazz:

[Drz]

Creative genius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fifthfiend]

SHHHH! :cmad: Are you mad?? You'll summon him if you speak his name too loudly!

Anypoop, at this point I'm beyond caring about this whole thing. If it sucks, it sucks. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Dan Slott is like the best thing that ever happened to any internet message board.

[fifthfiend]

hundreds of thousands of readers

:huh:

[TheCorpulent1]

Sorry, that should've been "tens of thousands." I got the usual sales of ASM confused with that one-time astronomical boost for the Obama issue.

[Bad Superman]

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/5103/costumes.jpg

Hate the new costume design, love the one on the left.

[Drz]

John Williams III's variant for #603:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4769609979_c93e39a78f_b.jpg

Would have been ridicilously funny if she had the new costume. :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, JMS is a team all on his own now. :funny:

[Mystirious]

Well, I guess to be completely fair, this is the first time I can recall where Wonder Woman has grown up in a sewer like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle :oldrazz:

Way cool!

Tubular!

Reaganomics!:awesome:

[Kurosawa]

Clearly, "One More Day," Barry Allen's return, and a host of other things have proven you can.

No one buys OMD though really. The others...were often seen as mistakes in the first place. Bringing back Bucky was justified by the quality of the story and because he was killed due to Stan's hatred of sidekicks and he in fact tried to kill him in the Golden Age as well. I know hating Barry and Hal is fashionable on this board, but they obviously have their fans. Although I grew up with them I was always more a fan of Alan and Jay. The worst injustice of the COIE killings was Supergirl anyway, as she was killed AND erased from history. Then a few years later when Alan Brennert used her ghost in a beautiful Christmas story, DC fired Mark Waid for approving the story.

[fifthfiend]

DC fired Mark Waid for approving the story.

:huh: What, really?

[Drz]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/07/07/wonder-woman-600-sells-out/

:).

[kguillou]

:huh: What, really?

My sentiments exactly. When did this happen?

[Manic]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/07/07/wonder-woman-600-sells-out/

:).


"Wonder Woman sells out" is a loaded statement.

[fifthfiend]

Wonder Woman #602: Diana meets President Obama.

[Manic]

The cover will feature Obama and Diana flying side-by-side, with Obama wearing a pair of bracelets and swinging a lasso.

[Kurosawa]

My sentiments exactly. When did this happen?

Around 1990. Waid was fired off of editorial and still wrote for DC freelance. Mike Carlin did it supposedly. Few years later Carlin canceled the Len Strazewski/Mike Parobek JSA series despite good sales and had the team aged and massacred in Zero Hour.

[BrianWilly]

lol

http://shortpacked.com/comics/2010-07-14-starspangledpanties.png

[TheCorpulent1]

I finally read Wonder Woman #600. Not bad. The first story kind of sucked because it was effectively a Superman-inspires-everyone story with Wonder Woman standing in for Superman and "everyone" limited solely to women. That's... what's the word I'm looking for... oh, right: stupid. I get the girl power angle and everything, but it's just ridiculous to see Wonder Woman paraded out as the hero for women and women only. What, she's not allowed to inspire men too? If so, did she only call other women to help out on this particular case? 'Cause that's also kind of stupid if she'd trust someone like Black Alice to watch her back on the battlefield over Superman or the Flash or any of the other male heroes who are actually heroic, as opposed to Alice. It just reeks of Simone trying to force this "Wonder-Woman-for-feminists!" message on us when, really, the fact that Wonder Woman can apparently only inspire other women seems like it should come off as a bit insulting. Either way, the story just doesn't work for me. It would've been much better if it just portrayed Wonder Woman as a heroic inspiration to everyone, 'cause that's pretty much what she is in the DC universe. She's one of its premier heroes, full stop; limiting her to one of its premier female heroes feels like a disservice to the true significance of the character. Perez's art is certainly nice, though.

The second story was a decent bit of fun, even if it did get a bit too saccharine toward the end. Yes, cats are cuddly and adorable. I understand this. Of course, it was nice to see Cassandra Cain not have her personality utterly murdered in a comic for the first time in like 4 years. Only a couple panels and her dialogue was a bit off, but still better than being a heartless murderer or drugged-up victim. :up:

The Superman/Wonder Woman team-up was probably my favorite of the stories. Just a nice, simple story where the characters feel right and play to their strengths. It's exactly the kind of casually solid story that we haven't gotten for either character in a while, what with everyone at DC tripping over themselves to make them 'edgy' or 'innovative' or whatever. I miss the days when we could get a whole stand-alone issue of stuff like this between arcs, rather than having Superman off on another planet for over a year and Wonder Woman dealing with "the most powerful (and utterly boring) villain she's ever faced, ever!!!!!" every other month.

The next story didn't really do anything for me personally. I know who Vanessa Kapatelis is, but I've never really cared about her. Still, I guess it's a nice cap to that particular long-(long-)running plot from way back in Perez's day for people who actually still care about Perez's supporting cast. So, um, yay for academic achievement, I guess? Next.

As for the final story, I'm fully on the side of the people who've said this is clearly a temporary situation. It's nothing to get worked up over. The costume sucks, Diana feels totally wrong (not to mention the whole world), and I'm still not particularly interested in seeing the story actually play out, but it clearly is a finite story that will reset things to a reasonable approximation of normal, at least, at its end. I do like the spacy oracle character, though. Not sure who she's supposed to be--that vision of her in what I assume is the proper timeline could've been virtually any Amazon, as far as I saw--but I hope she gets to stick around in this incarnation when all's said and done.

So a pretty decent issue with only one story that made my hand subconsciously creep into facepalming position, but even that one wasn't so bad once you get past the jackhammer-like subtlety of its "yay 4 teh ladies!" message.

[Tron Bonne]

Meh, I still won't be surprised if some of the alternate reality aspects stay post fix, but here's to hoping

[Spike_x1]

lol

http://shortpacked.com/comics/2010-07-14-starspangledpanties.pngHeh. There are a lot of reasons not to like the new costume, but I think that the "it's unpatriotic" excuse is one of the weaker ones.

[CLARKY]

Heh. There are a lot of reasons not to like the new costume, but I think that the "it's unpatriotic" excuse is one of the weaker ones.
I agree.

[Drz]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2wd289x.jpg

WONDER WOMAN #604
Written by J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Art and cover by DON KRAMER & MICHAEL BABINSKI
1:10 Variant cover by ALEX GARNER
This is it! The mysterious leader of the paramilitary organization finally confronts Wonder Woman as she continues learning what happened to the Amazons and why reality is askew! J. Michael Straczynski’s epic tale keeps rolling on!
Retailers please note: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the Previews Order Form for more information.
On sale OCTOBER 27 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

Here's hoping for some Ares. :p

[TheCorpulent1]

Dang, those are some boobs. :wow:

[Primal Slayer]

They are using this "new" WW throughout the DCU so I have no idea how that is not affecting everyone else.

[TheCorpulent1]

What do you mean? No one remembers Wonder Woman being anything other than what she is now, as far as I understood the introductory story in #600. So while the "new" Wonder Woman may appear elsewhere, it wouldn't really have any effect on anyone because everyone would think that's how she's always been...

[Drz]

Yeah it's like Maxwell Lord making people think Blue Beetle killed himself and that Lord doesn't exist.

[Primal Slayer]

Except how does that not effect WG/Donna? And her overall adventures/meetings with Supes/Bats since isnt she suppose to be deaged?

[Young Superman]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2wd289x.jpg



Here's hoping for some Ares. :p

Cool cover, I'm I the only one starting to like the new costume?

[TheComicbookKid]

Cool cover, I'm I the only one starting to like the new costume?

Yep. You are all alone on that one.



I was hoping for some Max Lord goodness. Oh well.

[fifthfiend]

I'm glad to see that the crucial 'erasing parts of the redesigned outfit to show more titty' process has been started.

[BrianWilly]

Seeing that costume in the same frame as the lasso of truth just makes the whole ensemble feel even more out of place.

[TheComicbookKid]

I'm glad to see that the crucial 'erasing parts of the redesigned outfit to show more titty' process has been started.

"When combating a paramilitary force, make sure you have your best assets forth."

-Sun Tzu's THE ART OF WAR, Chp. 6 Boobs:What are they good for?

[Young Superman]

What I meant when I said I was starting to like the new costume is that it seens to fit in with the story JMS is trying to tell. Though like Superman nothing will ever top Wonder Woman's traditional iconic look that's been around for sixty some years.


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/61810/1157591-dc_wonder_woman_800x600.jpg

[fifthfiend]

"When combating a paramilitary force, make sure you have your best assets forth."

-Sun Tzu's THE ART OF WAR, Chp. 6 Boobs:What are they good for?

Gold :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

Seeing that costume in the same frame as the lasso of truth just makes the whole ensemble feel even more out of place.
Uh, I believe you mean the noose of truth there, buddy. EXTREEEEEEEEEEME!!!!1

[BrianWilly]

I was gonna mention something about that, but then I figured I probably just didn't know the real difference between a noose and lasso. :awesome: Besides, I'm willing to give that some leeway 'cause covers are always trying to be symbolic or whatever. "She's trying to get to the truth...BUT THE TRUTH MIGHT KILL HER OMGEEEEEEEEE"

[Kurosawa]

Costume culled from the 90's, storyline idea from 1968 go go JMS breaking new ground. Or is that old wind?

[Drz]

Costume culled from the 90's, storyline idea from 1968 go go JMS breaking new ground. Or is that old wind?

It's breaking new ground. Hey whiner, do you wish me to pinpoint everysingle old story Grant Morrison is re-using or taking inspiration out of to show how "old win" his stories are? Or are you like Corpulent, that you come out to whine about comics you won't even read? :oldrazz:

[Tron Bonne]

It's breaking new ground. Hey whiner, do you wish me to pinpoint everysingle old story Grant Morrison is re-using or taking inspiration out of to show how "old win" his stories are? Or are you like Corpulent, that you come out to whine about comics you won't even read? :oldrazz:

We've been over this like five times, Drz. It's cool and all if you're into the changes and all that, but this is far from 'new ground'.

[Drz]

So you're trying to claim there was nothing new in #600 and won't be? Pessimism at it's finest. :p

[Tron Bonne]

Okay, so enlighten me as what was is so new and ground-breaking about this.

[Manic]

Costume culled from the 90's

More like the 50's. She pretty much stole Black Canary's costume.

[TheCorpulent1]

Black Canary's costume doesn't have any red, silly. It's NEW!

[BrianWilly]

Oh, and I'm about 95% certain that the guy isn't Ares. For it to be Ares, JMS would have to be not bored to tears by any of Wonder Woman's five-hundred ninety-nine issues from before he got on board. And we all know that isn't true. :awesome:

The five-percent possibility comes from the fact that Ares being the evil owner of a clandestine organization was already done as the capitulation of Messner-Leobs' Urban Wonder Woman run (for anyone wondering, that's when he and Circe had their baby), and we all also know that JMS' whole thing steals as much from Messner-Leobs' run as it can possibly get away with.

[Young Superman]

Not to change the the subject, but I was just wondering which of Cassie Sandsmark's Wonder Girl costumes is your favorite? I like this this one the most.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/574/140713-10414-111046-1-teen-titans_super.jpg

[Drz]

Okay, so enlighten me as what was is so new and ground-breaking about this.

How about you support good comics and buy them, instead of coming here to rant? It's too early to get into full details, but if you kept your eyes open. You'd actually see some small ideas that are fresh for her, and nah i'm not talking about the Messner-Loeb stuff. I'm very aware of that by now.

Still i just don't bloody get it. Why do so many people here invest time *whining* on things they *don't* read?

[TheCorpulent1]

Not to change the the subject, but I was just wondering which of Cassie Sandsmark's Wonder Girl costumes is your favorite? I like this this one the most.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/574/140713-10414-111046-1-teen-titans_super.jpg
I'm partial to that one myself. Not that particular drawing of it, since McKone seems to have made the pants really baggy and awkward-looking, but that costume is definitely her best. I like her current one too, but I'd prefer not to see any superheroes in jeans.

[Tron Bonne]

How about you support good comics and buy them, instead of coming here to rant? It's too early to get into full details, but if you kept your eyes open. You'd actually see some small ideas that are fresh for her, and nah i'm not talking about the Messner-Loeb stuff. I'm very aware of that by now.

Still i just don't bloody get it. Why do so many people here invest time *whining* on things they *don't* read?

Are we going to have to add JMS to the list of things we can't talk to you about?

I wasn't 'whining' about anything. You said it was 'breaking new ground', and it's not, as we've been over multiple times. I didn't even say anything about the quality of the story, could be the greatest WW story ever, but the concept itself isn't breaking any 'new ground', as you said.

And we're here to discuss things, and we're not all going to agree on them. I discuss both positive and negative aspects of things, as basically everyone else does.

[Manic]

Black Canary's costume doesn't have any red, silly. It's NEW!

My point is, I'm tired of people calling it a "90's costume." It's not.

Take the new Wonder Woman costume, put a fishnet pattern over the leggings, and turn the red top black. BAM! Black Canary's original costume. If I have any real problem with Wonder Woman's new costume, it's that it was ripped from another DC heroine. And I say that as someone who likes Black Canary more than Wonder Woman.

[Anubis]

He was mocking Drz's style of disagreeing I believe.

[Manic]

Ah. Then he should've called me ignorant or a liar.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, Nubs, nobody understands me like you do. :fhm:

[Drz]

Are we going to have to add JMS to the list of things we can't talk to you about?

Nah.

I wasn't 'whining' about anything. You said it was 'breaking new ground', and it's not, as we've been over multiple times. I didn't even say anything about the quality of the story, could be the greatest WW story ever, but the concept itself isn't breaking any 'new ground', as you said.

Well the story arc right now, isn't anything new outside yer usual timetravel alternations along with the gods being the bad guys, but who knows what surprises there will be along the way. Surely it will be more fan-approved then Batman creating the Black Glove, Black Glove creating Batman thing. :p

[Kurosawa]

It's breaking new ground. Hey whiner, do you wish me to pinpoint everysingle old story Grant Morrison is re-using or taking inspiration out of to show how "old win" his stories are? Or are you like Corpulent, that you come out to whine about comics you won't even read? :oldrazz:

I'll take the high ground and not reply to your whiner insult, but I will say this: SHOW where it's breaking new ground. You CAN'T because it's NOT and you KNOW it.

Lost memories-been done.
Lost powers-been done.
Gods messing with WW-that's like half the series.
WW in street clothes with a mysterious mentor-check.
WW fighting with martial arts-check.

Grant Morrison is the closest thing in today's comics to a genius. JMS is not. And who is to say I am not reading it even if I'm not buying it? Unlike some people, I don't talk about things if I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Drz]

Gods messing with WW-that's like half the series.

This is something that should be brought back tho. Not ridicilously sci-fi concepts that the athiest Gail Simone tried to enforce.

WW in street clothes with a mysterious mentor-check.

Who said she has a mysterious mentor?

Also nice of you to ignore the new aspects of Amazon mysticism and Diana branding her enemies among others. =*(

Grant Morrison is the closest thing in today's comics to a genius. JMS is

Oh two can play this game:
Cops trained as Batman surrogates - has been done.
Batman facing a well-thought-out plan to destroy his confidence and undermine his mission - has been done.
Flying batmobile - has been done. Frank Miller brought this trend into modern era also.
Jason Todd trying to replace Batman - has been done.
Dick Grayson as Batman - has been done.
Robin being grim dark - Has been done. (Hi Jason Todd!)
Gotham facing a "plague" - Has been done.
Batman having a son with Talia - has been done.
Batman fightning a worshipper of Barbatos - has been done.


Also is Morrison truly a genius for changing Batman's origin into Batman creating the Miagani tribe that gets corrupted by the Black Glove, which leads them to worship Barbatos which leads them to murder the Wayne family? Really? Changing Batman's origin from a simple mug shooting into "Batman is the god of justice and always has been!!" is something we consider a work of a genius these days? :p

[Kurosawa]

This is something that should be brought back tho. Not ridicilously sci-fi concepts that the athiest Gail Simone tried to enforce.


Who said she has a mysterious mentor?

Also nice of you to ignore the new aspects of Amazon mysticism and Diana branding her enemies among others. =*(



Oh two can play this game:
Cops trained as Batman surrogates - has been done.
Batman facing a well-thought-out plan to destroy his confidence and undermine his mission - has been done.
Flying batmobile - has been done. Frank Miller brought this trend into modern era also.
Jason Todd trying to replace Batman - has been done.
Dick Grayson as Batman - has been done.
Robin being grim dark - Has been done. (Hi Jason Todd!)
Gotham facing a "plague" - Has been done.
Batman having a son with Talia - has been done.
Batman fightning a worshipper of Barbatos - has been done.


Also is Morrison truly a genius for changing Batman's origin into Batman creating the Miagani tribe that gets corrupted by the Black Glove, which leads them to worship Barbatos which leads them to murder the Wayne family? Really? Changing Batman's origin from a simple mug shooting into "Batman is the god of justice and always has been!!" is something we consider a work of a genius these days? :p

Batman's origin will ALWAYS be that his parents got killed in front of him coming home from a movie and nothing Morrison or anyone does doesn't take away from that. But I haven't been running around saying Morrison's Batman was breaking new ground. I know a fair amount of it covers old ground. Just like JMS's WW does. His Superman is kind of a new idea, he's just not capable of doing it well so it's a preachfest instead.

[BrianWilly]

Ugh, of all the jarringly OOC alterations JMS made to the character, this whole branding business has got to be the worst. It's like he took a look at Diana and said, "Hmm, what is the single least likely thing she would do to anyone? Oh right, ****ing brand them like a crazy person."

[Drz]

Batman's origin will ALWAYS be that his parents got killed in front of him coming home from a movie and nothing Morrison or anyone does doesn't take away from that.

Yeah but now we know his parents got shot because Bruce inspired the Miagani tribe, which in the end got corrupted by the Black Glove.

[Kurosawa]

Yeah but now we know his parents got shot because Bruce inspired the Miagani tribe, which in the end got corrupted by the Black Glove.

And the chances of that being ignored by the next big Bat writer is extremely high. Either way, I just don't see it as hurting Batman. The reason I see this new direction hurting WW is because she gets a new direction/costume/origin every few years, and because I just am not impressed with it or with JMS as a DC writer period.

[Manic]

I think I've decided to give up on Wonder Woman. The fact that she's been written by dozens of writers and I can only read a couple of those runs speaks a lot about the futility of reading her comic.

[fifthfiend]

I've designated BW as my Wonder Woman barometer, I basically figure there's no reason I need to consider reading her comic until/unless he starts sperging out at how awesome it is, indicating that it's being written by either 1. a good writer, or 2. Joss Whedon.

[NightBeetle]

CCI: DC Nation Kickoff LIVE! (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=27358)

As for the highly publicized new costume for Wonder womanhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=27358#), Jim Lee said, "I was thinking that we wanted something completely different" before adding that "We really wanted something that would make everyone go ape crap. And there's a reason in the story for the costume change, and as it goes along it'll evolve." He also said that he was sure that in a few years time, he'd meet a fan who would say that "Wonder Woman" #600 was their first and favorite comic as he's seen happen several times in the past with books he'd never expected.
A fan then said she loved the costume in general but hated the jacket, to which Lee replied, "It's attached to her back and sewn into her flesh. It's a magical jacket!" He then said he'd take the note into their next editorial meeting. "Once the jacket comes off, it'll be a big story point, and we're hoping for similar press coverage," joked Didio.

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, they're such jerks about everything, and justifiably so. :)

[Kurosawa]

Completely different as in the same costume he's always designed and the same storyline that was done in 1968. So new, so groundbreaking.

[NightBeetle]

@Geoff Johns' DC Focus LIVE! panel in SDCC

Johns says he knows something about development of a Wonder Woman movie in the months and years ahead but can't say anything other than that.

Johns says Wonder Woman is much more human than people give her credit for. He thinks people misinterpret the character and thinks she's extremely relatable.

[BrianWilly]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/sdcc-2010-dc-focus-geoff-johns-100722.html
Johns says Wonder Woman is much more human than people give her credit for. He thinks people misinterpret the character and thinks she's extremely relatable.I originally wrote out a much more sarcastic response to this, complete with some rolling eyes smileys, but instead I think I'll just say: yes, you're right Johns. "People" do misinterpret the character. She is in fact much more human than "people" give her credit for. I'm glad "you" have noticed this.

Hmm, still pretty sarcastic.

edit: Heh, beaten

[Drz]

Comic con info:
- JMS discussed his Wonder Woman arc. "How many of you know Schrödinger's cat?" JMS asked, then explaining the concept. In an upcoming issue, Wonder Woman has a vision of herself in her old costume. "There's something going on, and it involves Schrödinger's cat."

Later today there will be JMS spotlight, so prolly more info than this guys! :p

[TheCorpulent1]

Someone in the audience should've yelled, "Schrodinger's cat is a close, personal friend of mine." :awesome:

So I take it Wonder Woman is the victim of some kind of quantum possibility deal? She exists both as her normal self and the new version at the same time, depending on who/what she's interacting with?

[Drz]

One thing is for sure. Some crazed fanboy will now search all Wonder Woman comics to find something about Schrödinger's cat and call JMS an unimative hack. :p

[TheCorpulent1]

Even if it's not in the comics, he's clearly just ripping off Schrodinger anyway. He didn't even bother to change the name of the cat to cover his tracks. :doh:

[Drz]

I love you.

[BrianWilly]

****ing Schrödinger's Cat again? Ugh, this is the third time JMS has directly referenced that ****ing cat in three different comics. Just like how he loves that ****ing insomniac butterfly.

[sinigang]

Just wanna show you guys my custom wonder woman Alex Ross bust
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/1f3b0b8d.jpg?t=1279913345
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/18b12b84.jpg?t=1279913359
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/26346932.jpg?t=1279913516
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/19eb464c.jpg?t=1279913505
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/4dcb7ec5.jpg?t=1279913487
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/9569fb59.jpg?t=1279913433
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/c383da2e.jpg?t=1279913404
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/78827a5a.jpg?t=1279913376
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/f57d3f40.jpg?t=1279913367
http://emob10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/airfx12/18b12b84.jpg?t=1279913359

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, that's incredibly good. :up:

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, it really is. Great bust :up:

[Mystirious]

And the rest of the statue looks good too:awesome:

[Anubis]

Bazinga!

[sinigang]

Thanks guys! Painted version very soon :)

[TheComicbookKid]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/07/24/sdcc-2010-j-michael-straczynski-spotlight/

601 page!

I guess they are making up for the butt shots with extra cleav shots.

[TheCorpulent1]

I guess she can't fly in Reality 2.0.

[Manic]

JMS said she doesn't have her powers in this reality, but she'll gradually regain them along with her original memories.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, okay, I must've missed that. I remembered she didn't seem to have her usual strength in #600.

[Drz]

Comic con info:
- JMS wanted all attendees to have a free #601 issue to convince the fans on his run. DC didn't allow this so he had actors perform a live show of the issue. Here's what happens this week: The issue begins with Wonder Woman standing amidst the ruins of Paradise Island, consulting a blind oracle (voiced by Bennett). The opening scenes recount the new origin of Wonder Woman in the altered history, showing Paradise Island's last stand. Platt voiced Hippolyta as well as Diana. Lowenthal voiced the mysterious leader of the Paradise Island siege, who looks to become a significant character, as well as other characters. Hungerford also played several roles, and Straczynski narrated silent scenes.
- Following the conclusion of the performance, Straczynski asked, “How many of you who were unsure are going to give it a shot now?” There was light applause. “That ain't bad.” “How many of you were going to buy it anyway?” This question received more applause.
- The first new villain of “Wonder Woman” would represent “the first ring of several concentric circles,” all based on mythology, Straczynski said. After the first major threat, the next villains are the Keres, who drag dead soldiers down to Hades.
- Asked whether he could have anticipated that Asgard, which Straczynski brought to Earth in “Thor,” would be destroyed again as it had the last time it was Earth-based, the writer said simply, “There was a reason I stopped writing 'Thor.' You've pretty much identified it.” He then elaborated by explaining how he saw the value of setting Asgard in the middle of a quiet Oklahoma town. “I was hoping to keep it there for a while, but when I heard what 'Siege' was about I thought, '****, I just got here.' So long, guys!”
- JMS reiterated a discussion yesterday that Wonder Woman will be appearing in other titles, but Donna Troy and Wonder Girl will not be affected. “Phantom Stranger and Deadman know her from both worlds,” he said, but for most characters, “This happens in a bubble—it's not like she was married and then wasn't and nobody remembered she was ever married.”

[TheCorpulent1]

Sucks that JMS couldn't give WW #601 away for free.

As much as I enjoyed Siege, I was pretty sad to see Asgard get destroyed again so soon after it was recreated. Fraction's first story is supposedly about the Asgardians' search for a new home, so hopefully he sets them up somewhere good.

[Manic]

Thor: "Packeth thine belongings, friends. The Asgardians are moving to Oakland!"

Cyclops: "There goes the neighborhood."

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, they do seem to like moving heroes out to California when all else fails. But I have a feeling it'll be more like back to the dimension Asgard was originally in. First arc deals with Thor apparently meeting some squatters who've taken up residence there while Asgard was in Oklahoma.

Anyway, back to Wonder Woman.

[Tron Bonne]

- JMS reiterated a discussion yesterday that Wonder Woman will be appearing in other titles, but Donna Troy and Wonder Girl will not be affected. “Phantom Stranger and Deadman know her from both worlds,” he said, but for most characters, “This happens in a bubble—it's not like she was married and then wasn't and nobody remembered she was ever married.”

So, the realities are like happening side by side or something? It's not like this is an actual broken reality that's actually changed the timeline, but more of an alternate world situation?

[Drz]

So, the realities are like happening side by side or something? It's not like this is an actual broken reality that's actually changed the timeline, but more of an alternate world situation?

Yeah. This is where the Schrödinger's cat comes in, i believe! Also you guys suck! I never got a moment to use this picture, but i'm posting it anyway now:
http://i26.tinypic.com/72dj5f.png

[Tron Bonne]

I don't get how the Schrödinger's cat thing applies with that. Isn't that the paradox about the cat and the radiation in the box?

[Mystirious]

Yeah. This is where the Schrödinger's cat comes in, i believe! Also you guys suck! I never got a moment to use this picture, but i'm posting it anyway now:
http://i26.tinypic.com/72dj5f.png

:awesome:

Wonder Woman's new costume needs shades.

[Kurosawa]

So it's not an alternate time line but an alternate Earth? Well, that's different and better. I'm always for more Earths.

[Drz]

Isn't that the paradox about the cat and the radiation in the box?

The cat might be inside the box and it might be poisoned, but we never know because we don't open the box. Does the cat is there, but at the same time it isn't there. Or something along those lines.

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. Not entirely sure how that would apply to two different worlds or realities happening simultaneously, but whatever, I'm sure it'll make sense in time. Either that, or JMS is ********ting to make the run sound smarter than it is, but I don't think he'd do that

[Manic]

Maybe this new "odyssey" timeline (I'm calling it that because of the "Odyssey of Wonder Woman" lead-in story from #600) doesn't actually exist yet. Maybe either it or New Earth can exist, but not both, and the conclusion of this storyline will decide whether the correct timeline is Odyssey or New Earth. In a sense, Wonder Woman is inside of the box, reality itself is the cat, and she's deciding whether or not the cat is dead.

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, I could see something like that, nice of setting up the analogy.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't get how the Schrödinger's cat thing applies with that. Isn't that the paradox about the cat and the radiation in the box?
Yep. It applies in the sense that Wonder Woman exists in both states simultaneously, just as the cat is both alive and dead inside the box until you actually open it and check.

[fifthfiend]

http://i26.tinypic.com/72dj5f.png

It's a good thing DC gives us haters so many wonderful opportunities to do so, like with Wonder Woman's terrible new costume. :awesome:

PS Wonder Woman could probably actually zip that jacket closed, artist fails.

EDIT Also she has real shoes and not footie pajamas, clearly this artist does not respect the costume-designing talents of comics artist Jim Lee

[NightBeetle]

WONDER WOMAN #601 Preview (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/07/28/jms-and-don-kramer-begin-their-epic-wonder-woman-run/)

http://i26.tinypic.com/2itmsz7.jpg

[Tron Bonne]

I posted a small review for issue 601 in the Bought/Thought, I'll go ahead and post it here, too

So, I decided to pick up Wonder Woman 601. Probably a surprise to those who know my thoughts on the situation of the character at the moment, but JMS has promised old fans that by "two issues" we'd get what he's going for, and despite my negative views on the move I can't deny the horrible condition this book and character has been in since the relaunch (though, it's more the fault of horrible editorial, like 75% of DC's books OYL). In addition to all that, I feel a certain obligation to be there for the character's triple digit renumbering.

Well, anyway, to the issue itself. I'll go ahead and say that the story here definitely is interesting, though overall very little happens (that's the JMS pacing we all know and love!). The blind oracle conjures a vision of Paradise Island's destruction by mercenaries under a shadowed figure who holds the lasso of truth. Wonder Tot and several other amazons happen to escape to the world of man, though they are still hunted. A very interesting backdrop for a new character, indeed, and that's essentially what this Wonder Woman is for all intents and purposes. After Diana finds out this truth, she vows bloody revenge, along with promise to help her amazon sisters.

The writing itself, especially at the very beginning when the oracle recounts how Paradise Island fell, is excellent. The writing drops a bit in the second half of the issue, when JMS forgoes the epic storytelling feel to more grounded dialogue, but it never becomes bad by any means. He sets up more than enough mystery to keep the story flowing; who is the lasso man, why did the Gods seemingly drop their protection of Paradise Island, why the hell is everything like this at all? I admit, I still don't particularly feel this, but remain curious as what the next issue will hold to apparently keep old fans.

I won't go into details about the new costume or gritty air of the book; really, both of those have been discussed and argued all they can be. I will simply say, don't like either, and hope both go for the most part once the timeline fix happens. Though, to be honest, I'm not as convinced as some others that everything will go back to normal. JMS spent a lot of time discussing about how everything with Wonder Woman was wrong for me to be that optimistic, but of course, it could simply be all BSing to go along with the hype. Only time, as they say, will tell.

Regardless of what does or does not stay, at the very least this seems to be grabbing attention and sales for the Amazing Amazon. Whether or not this will remain consistent is another issue, but for now at least, there's been more light on the character than there has been in quite some time. My main fear remains that this will simply go down as yet another attempt to redefine the character and her world. It amazes me how blind some people in this industry are to how you really build characters. Of course, we live more and more in a comic age where all anybody seems to want to write or read are status quo shattering events and mini-events.

With hopes of finishing this review on a positive note, I must give some praise to Don Kramer's artwork. I really love the way he draws Diana, and the flashbacks on Paradise Island felt striking. I remember him for his run of Nightwing with Tomasi, but I honestly don't remembering being quite as impressed with him then. Definitely a good artist for Wonder Woman.

[Motown Marvel]

601 was okay. the costume is still horrible and the character feels wrong. but this has potential to blossom into something really good. im sure as long as it returns wonder woman to the hero we know and love, then all will be well.

[BrianWilly]

Good job having Hippolyta and the other Amazons not wear their bracers in daily life, JMS. It's okay though, we know you're new to all of this.

Oh, and it's great how you had them constantly referring to Aphro-****ing-dite as their main goddess. Their main patron has been Athena for twenty-four years now, but I suppose no one can blame you for not having checked any facts and stuff.

Also, the lasso of truth didn't even exist when Diana was a child. It was specially-made for her by Hephaestus when she was twenty and won the contest to be Themyscira's ambassador. No no...we understand, JMS. It's only her origin story, who cares about that, right?

How the s**t is Diana sticking to the ice-cream truck? Do you think you're still writing Spider-Man, good sir?




Carry on.

[Drz]

Good job having Hippolyta and the other Amazons not wear their bracers in daily life, JMS. It's okay though, we know you're new to all of this.

It's just an alternate history created by the Gods. You keep ignoring this.

Oh, and it's great how you had them constantly referring to Aphro-****ing-dite as their main goddess. Their main patron has been Athena for twenty-four years now, but I suppose no one can blame you for not having checked any facts and stuff.Gods altered things... Why do you keep ignoring this?

Also, the lasso of truth didn't even exist when Diana was a child. It was specially-made for her by Hephaestus when she was twenty and won the contest to be Themyscira's ambassador. No no...we understand, JMS. It's only her origin story, who cares about that, right?This is an alternate universe created by the Gods. The gods put the lasso in there.

How the s**t is Diana sticking to the ice-cream truck? Do you think you're still writing Spider-Man, good sir?Strong grip. Samething with the Airplane, but the artist atleast showed that the airplane was "damaged" by Diana holding on to it.

#601 was a pretty good start, leaves with a sorta cliffchanger ending and teases us with Diana seeing dreams of her real life. Tho seriously BrianWilly. JMS is treating the Gods as "comic book writers" just rewriting her stuff, as much as Morrison used the Monitors as writers/editors in Final Crisis.

[BrianWilly]

Everything I talked about was from before the timeline diverged. The post-Crisis Amazons wore their bracers and payed homage to their patrons for two thousand years before the events of this story. Unless you're gonna tell me that the gods changed history from all the way back to the dawn of this race and not just from when Themyscira was invaded, which would be a silly assumption because neither JMS nor the issue ever suggested this in any way. Every continuity mistake felt like the exact sort of mistake that a writer who just doesn't know the character very well would make, which describes JMS to the tee.

[Drz]

Yeah the Gods changed the history to have this whole drama effect on Diana. They had the amazons lose, they had Diana's powers and equipment splitted out such as the Lasso of Truth. This is like a Box/trap that Diana is inside, created by the gods. It's not reality at all, its the god's playground and they made a artificial history for it.

[BrianWilly]

Right, okay, I'm going to just continue believing that blatant WW mythos mistakes like Amazons not wearing bracers or them holding Aphrodite above their other goddesses for some reason is just JMS flat-out not knowing his s**t, instead of some random changes the gods made that have literally nothing to do with the drama of the story whatsoever.

[Drz]

Understood, but this really is just the alternate reality that Diana is escaping. Gods made the reality, and they changed it to work for the story.... JMS is obviously the evil Zeus. :D :D :D

[BrianWilly]

The fact that the lasso exists in a time where it cannot possibly exist may be some plan of the gods, okay. But what possible rationale do the gods have for having Hippolyta and the others not wear bracers while playing with a bunny? How does it possibly serve their needs to have the Amazons tout their pre-Crisis patron Aphrodite as their post-Crisis patron instead of Athena? You are completely reaching on this, just to defend a story you like. Face it: JMS doesn't know his Wonder Woman as well as anyone would like, and has already ****ed up some pretty basic mythos and continuity on his very first full issue. Seriously, is that actually so hard to believe?

[Drz]

No, for me it's like this:
Anything can be and is allowed to be altered, because this is a FAKE reality by the GODS. They want to mold Wonder Woman into something else, so they created this FAKE reality with a FAKE history to change her.

[BrianWilly]

Sure, and I have no idea why that would have anything to do with not wearing bracers or worshiping Aphrodite before Athena. You don't, either.

Any sort of continuity mistake can be and has been justified with Superboy-Prime punches or chaos magic or multiverse bleeding or whatever cosmic excuse of the summer. Just because it can be rationalized through the limitless possibilities of a comic book universe, doesn't make it any less of a mistake in the first place.

[Drz]

Sure, and I have no idea why that would have anything to do with not wearing bracers or worshiping Aphrodite before Athena. You don't, either.

I'd be worried if this was the real continuety, but it's an alternation to make Hippolyta and others die and mold Diana into something the gods would see as: appreciated by the world. Also yeah perhaps Aphrodite wants more attention, so they had the fake past scream for her name. ;) :p

Just because it can be rationalized through the limitless possibilities of a comic book universe, doesn't make it any less of a mistake in the first place.I'll agree if they make this continuety the real continuety, but we know this is a trap/box that Diana is locked in. She needs to escape it, but its also changing and molding her. Thats what the fake reality is doing.

It's Superman/Batman: Absolute Power where the villains from future came to alter Batman and Supes' pasts. Batman and Superman we're stuck in a fake reality and had to escape it. Same thing is happening here.

[BrianWilly]

I understand that. It's a very clean, no-prize explanation for why there are glaring continuity mistakes in this story.

And the only reason such explanations are even needed at all is because JMS f**ked up. And he deserves to be called out on it so that Aphrodite isn't still the only goddess the Amazons worship when we return to the way things are supposed to be.

[Drz]

But what if Aphrodite changed the reality so that she could get more attention? What if she is behind this and you spotted a huge clue?

[Anubis]

What's the big deal about Bracers? Seems like an awful lame thing to be pissed about. I could see the whole Aphroditie thing, but Bracers? Seriously?

[TheCorpulent1]

The bracers are a reminder of the Amazons' being enslaved by Hercules and a mutual commitment that they'll never allow that to happen again. They're kind of a significant part of the bedrock of their whole society.

[Tron Bonne]

I didn't catch the Aphrodite thing at all, I think my mind just kind of automatically switched names to Athena as I read it. I was kind of wondering about the lasso myself, maybe the lasso is from the real timeline?

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe JMS is subtly planning to retcon Diana back to her pre-Crisis origin. Sort of like Johns mentioning that Aquaman is a hybrid in Brightest Day when, post-Crisis, he's supposed to be a full Atlantean. :o

[Tron Bonne]

Might be. I'm not sure who their main goddess was at that point. Also not sure what the story behind the lasso of truth was either at that time, if there even was one. I want to say...that she just kind of had it, but I'm not positive.

[TheCorpulent1]

Pretty sure Hera was their main squeeze on Olympus pre-Crisis, now that you mention it. I don't know where the Aphrodite idea comes from...

[Tron Bonne]

Well, hopefully it gets addressed, because otherwise it is kind of a big flub that could've easily been fixed by skimming one of the great DC Encyclopedias



JMS is treating the Gods as "comic book writers" just rewriting her stuff, as much as Morrison used the Monitors as writers/editors in Final Crisis.

I doubt that. Did Morrison ever say that about FC, either? Because I always felt that interpretation of the story to be kind of a stretch

[TheCorpulent1]

Azzarello made Morrison and the other 52 writers the villains in the Doctor 13 backup. It was pure awesome sauce. :D

[Tron Bonne]

Seriously? What was the story behind that

[TheCorpulent1]

It was just balls-to-the-wall insanity. Reality was breaking down around Doctor 13 but he refused to believe any of it because he's a hardcore skeptic. You should totally read it, it's awesome. There's a trade of it, thankfully. :up:

[Tron Bonne]

What's it a back-up in?

[TheCorpulent1]

Tales of the Unexpected, that mini-series that covered some of Cris Allen's time as the Spectre a few years ago. Here's the trade for the Doctor 13 stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-13-Architecture-Brian-Azzarello/dp/1401215521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280425835&sr=8-1

[Tron Bonne]

Okay, cool, I'll check that out, sounds fun

[TheCorpulent1]

It is enormously fun. And if you were on the fence at all, let me add three words: vampire Nazi gorillas. :awesome:

[Kurosawa]

Maybe JMS is subtly planning to retcon Diana back to her pre-Crisis origin. Sort of like Johns mentioning that Aquaman is a hybrid in Brightest Day when, post-Crisis, he's supposed to be a full Atlantean. :o

I doubt it although that wouldn't bother me one bit. Post-Crisis and especially after all the various attempts to fix what they stupidly broke by doing COIE instead of just starting a whole new Earth like Marvel smartly did...I don't even consider DC to have continuity, at least not at all to the degree that Marvel does. DC continuity is about like the Pirate Code in POTC...it's just basic guidelines. Any story you read can and will be retconned away.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's especially prevalent now that Johns is in charge of everything. Dude loves his retcons.

[BrianWilly]

Aphrodite was the Amazons' patron in pre-Crisis (http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8940/hippolyte.jpg).

I don't really care that much, nor would I be too surprised, if random readers or even writers don't know too much about the cultural significance of their bracers or exactly which one of the Olympian gods they're supposed to worship more than they worship the others or the precise time, date, location, and position of the moon wherein lasso was supposed to have been made. That's the kind of stuff that would pretty much never get touched on in team books like JLA or other DC situations, so why would anyone care, right?

But when you're the writer of the one and only Wonder Woman ongoing of the company, and your story deals extensively with her origin, her culture, and her mythos, and that Perez's reboot remains to this day the one and only time that these things have ever been fully explored (unlike Superman whose origins get rebooted every other year), I'm going to go ahead and expect you to have actually read that story pretty carefully. I know, I know; insanity, right?

Let's be clear: This story doesn't become a bad story just because JMS doesn't know Wonder Woman continuity. But this is the exact precise **** that we'd been suspecting and fearing since day one: that he simply isn't interested in things that had defined the character as she was, and is just going to do whatever he wants with his paltry understanding of her and her world.

"As Superman has been for me, so Wonder Woman has been for a lot of women readers, so the chance to dive into that character is something I’m eagerly anticipating. This is a strong, mythic, powerful character who for some time now has been kind of drowning under the weight of her own mythos, so I’m looking forward to paring away some of the layers of debris and undergrowth that have piled up around her in order to get to the core of the character."

[TheComicbookKid]

I think JMS does know the difference. The whole objective of this is to apply certain aspects of this WW onto the regular universe version. The same way regular cap took on some of the Ultimate Cap's costuming and action after the Ultimates became so successful. I think he's openly acknowledging that this version is wrong cause none of these aspects could be graphed on.

[Kurosawa]

That's especially prevalent now that Johns is in charge of everything. Dude loves his retcons.

Even before Johns had any level of power DC changed their history all the time on a whim. I know you don't like them but how they handled the Hawks Post-Crisis is the best example. I never get too attached to anything DC I read Post-Crisis.

[Anubis]

Yeah, but now they're changing the s**t we like, so now it's a problem. :o

[Kurosawa]

Yeah, but now they're changing the s**t we like, so now it's a problem. :o

Welcome to my world circa 1986.

[Drz]

But when you're the writer of the one and only Wonder Woman ongoing of the company, and your story deals extensively with her origin, her culture, and her mythos, and that Perez's reboot remains to this day the one and only time that these things have ever been fully explored (unlike Superman whose origins get rebooted every other year), I'm going to go ahead and expect you to have actually read that story pretty carefully. I know, I know; insanity, right?


Really Willy i'd be worried too if JMS makes these changes once Diana escapes the trap box. You really need to realize that this is a fake reality with a fake past created by the gods. :|

[BrianWilly]

No, I really don't. :) Where are you getting the impression that events from before the invasion are also supposed to be faked by the gods? Is there anything from this issue or anything that JMS has said which actually suggests this? Hell, would you even have noticed the numerous continuity discrepancies if I hadn't came in here and specifically listed them? Would you have come up with this notion that everything we see is supposed to be a fake timeline if I hadn't made a fuss about it in the first place? Come on.

In fact, forget everything I just said, because here is JMS definitively refuting that everything about the Amazons' mythos had been changed, right here when he first talked about the story: "Suppose someone went back in time and changed one thing, and it changed your life to the point that you had little or no memory of what life had been like before the change happened." (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/06/29/unveiling-wonder-woman%E2%80%99s-new-costume-direction/) Emphasis mine.

[TheCorpulent1]

Come now, BeeDub, don't disabuse Drz of his wild imaginings to justify his love of mediocre comics. They're all he has. Also, remember: if you don't like Ultimate comics, it is an empirical fact that you've never read one and have no right to complain. ;)

[Drz]

In fact, forget everything I just said, because here is JMS definitively refuting that everything about the Amazons' mythos had been changed, right here when he first talked about the story: "Suppose someone went back in time and changed one thing, and it changed your life to the point that you had little or no memory of what life had been like before the change happened." (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/06/29/unveiling-wonder-woman%E2%80%99s-new-costume-direction/) Emphasis mine.

Yeah see i'm all okay with the changes since its just alternate history, sure you saw the bracelets thing as a mistake, but each for their own. I was aware of the Lasso thing, but again we know that this quest of hers is to regain her powers and equipment.. So he's like a boss challange in a real life video game, for real!


Come now, BeeDub, don't disabuse Drz of his wild imaginings to justify his love of mediocre comics. They're all he has. Also, remember: if you don't like Ultimate comics, it is an empirical fact that you've never read one and have no right to complain. ;)

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae216/Drazlol/Randomness/NPH-SLAP.gif
Grow up and become a man!

[TheCorpulent1]

What I wouldn't give for my very own Slapsgiving... :awesome:

[Kurosawa]

Another plus for DC never allowing any of their history to stick: no need for lazy writers to do any research or know the books/characters they are writing. And no need for lazy editors to check on them. And if it gets too bad they can just proclaim "creative freedom!"

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah see i'm all okay with the changes since its just alternate history, sure you saw the bracelets thing as a mistake, but each for their own. I was aware of the Lasso thing, but again we know that this quest of hers is to regain her powers and equipment.. So he's like a boss challange in a real life video game, for real!

I know like you're all like pro-JMS and stuff, but you'd just have to be kind of blind not to see where BW is coming from with that. He even quoted the man himself. I mean, sure, hopefully there's something to this and it's explained later on, but if not, it's pretty lazy, and kind of would show how little research went into the project.

[Drz]

I'm Pro-JMS unless he changes the amazons canonically this drasticly. :p

[Tron Bonne]

I'm not entirely sure if you're getting what's being talked about here...

[Drz]

Well i don't think BW is realizing that the gods made huge alternations and everythings accepted. Really Diana is like in a video game with Bosses having her equipment and powers, and she has to fight thru and win them back along with her memories. The gods are shaping her into what they want, thus alternations are being made, yet Willy sees these as mistakes in continuety.... While its an alternate reality. >_____<

[Tron Bonne]

Okay, but you're just using this whole alternate reality to explain anyway basically everything. There was suppose to be one change (and this isn't from me or BW, this is from JMS himself as noted above), but this is multiple changes. Maybe JMS was BSing to throw people off, I don't know, it's possible.

Like I said, I think it's too early to really say the sky is falling or anything, because it may get explained in some context, but I see where BW is coming from. We're been lead to believe that only one thing has been altered to make these two realities split. If they don't get explained, then yeah, it was either a continuity flub, or JMS was BSing to throw people off. I don't think it's a story-breaking thing myself (though would expect some explanation at some point if they are fixed why it happened that way), but for a writer who has apparently come to fix this character he considers horribly broken, if it's the former...well, yeah.

[TheCorpulent1]

It all makes sense if the one change... is to everything! :awesome:

[Drz]

It all makes sense if the one change... is to everything! :awesome:

Exactly!!!!!

[Tron Bonne]

It all makes sense if the one change... is to everything! :awesome:

Lol, I bet that's how he'll weasel out of it, too, if it ends up being a flub without any explanation. 'Oh, yeah, that was the trick, haha, bet you didn't see that coming.'

That, or people will just blame it on editorial, like his fans do for anything bad JMS ever writes :awesome:

[TheCorpulent1]

Hey, I call JMS on his bland final issues of Thor. :oldrazz:

[GlasgowBat]

Regarding the lasso at least; isn't it supposed to be the hippolyta was the first wonder woman, during WW2, and therefore had the lasso as well?

[TheCorpulent1]

Via time travel shenanigans, though. She actually took up the Wonder Woman mantle after Diana but got sent back in time to WWII. I don't remember all the details.

[BrianWilly]

Hippolyta became Wonder Woman about six or seven years (DC Universe comic time) after Diana did. When she went back in time to to the forties, she was using Diana's lasso. When she came back to the 90s, she obviously brought the lasso with her. There's still no way for the lasso to have existed when Diana was a child, much less for Hippolyta to even have the slightest idea what it was when Naked Black Villain showed it to her.

[Kurosawa]

Hippolyte being WW during the 40's is no longer DCU canon according do DiDio...which is stupid, as the JSA now doesn't have a WW. But DC changes their history every 5 minutes, so stupidity is the norm.

The smart move IMO would be to have WW be thousands of years old and to have started with the JSA but history and the original creators stories always get shafted.

[BrianWilly]

Hippolyte being WW during the 40's is no longer DCU canon according do DiDio...When did he ever say this?

edit: Hippolyta still being Wonder Woman in WWII was reinforced as recently as 2008, in Wonder Woman #13.

[hippie_hunter]

Okay, but you're just using this whole alternate reality to explain anyway basically everything. There was suppose to be one change (and this isn't from me or BW, this is from JMS himself as noted above), but this is multiple changes. Maybe JMS was BSing to throw people off, I don't know, it's possible.

Like I said, I think it's too early to really say the sky is falling or anything, because it may get explained in some context, but I see where BW is coming from. We're been lead to believe that only one thing has been altered to make these two realities split. If they don't get explained, then yeah, it was either a continuity flub, or JMS was BSing to throw people off. I don't think it's a story-breaking thing myself (though would expect some explanation at some point if they are fixed why it happened that way), but for a writer who has apparently come to fix this character he considers horribly broken, if it's the former...well, yeah.

But right now, alternate reality is the only explaination for the changes. If the changes such as Aphrodite being the Amazons' patron goddess and the Amazons not wearing the bracers still being around once everything is back to normal, then I think some serious *****ing should occur.

[BrianWilly]

There's actually another, pretty good explanation for when writers mess up continuity in comic books. It's called "a writer messes up continuity." It's not uncommon, guys.

[Kurosawa]

When did he ever say this?

edit: Hippolyta still being Wonder Woman in WWII was reinforced as recently as 2008, in Wonder Woman #13.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/c2e2-dc-town-hall-100418.html

Another reader then asked about Wonder Woman, and if she would get a second ongoing series like Superman and Batman. "We keep on trying, we just want to get the first one right," DiDio said. Another fan asked about Wonder Woman's revised origin, post-Infinite Crisis, to which DiDio explained that her mother Hippolyta was no longer the original Wonder Woman of World War II. Additionally, Wonder Woman was again a founding member of the Justice League. "Wonder Woman is our premier female superhero in DC Comics," DiDio said. "When she first appears she should be in our premier superhero team."

Which translates into "screw the JSA and the Golden Age again". Now she should have been in the JLA from the start, yes, but if they have to cram every superhero on one Earth anyway, the JSA needs a Wonder Woman and having Hippolyte there made as much sense as anything else they do on clutterearth.

This was further evidenced by there being no WW as a JSA member in the fake DCU Legacies book that is currently out. Because history and tradition suck (to DC) and because DC changes their history about as often as a hooker changes partners. DC sells lies. You read a real All-Star Comics from the 1940's or a reprint and WW is right there. You read a real All-Star Comics and Superman and Batman are listed as honorary JSA members. This is a good bit of how DC has castrated Superman, by taking away his in-story position as the first superhero.

I eventually had to learn to let go of my anger over DC's disrespect for the original creators and their work, or let go of it enough so I could read and enjoy some of what they do for what it is. That's what you have to do now. DC can and will retcon out any story at a whim. I don't like what JMS is going, but him ignoring Post-Crisis WW history is no better or worse than Perez and co throwing out all the Pre-Crisis WW material in the 80's. What they did was worse actually-they threw out all the stories that William Moulton Marston himself wrote and H.G. Peter drew.

Basically my personal choice with DC is to deal with all these retcons even though I hate them because I like the characters that much. I've been dealing with it since 1985 in that manner.

[Tron Bonne]

But right now, alternate reality is the only explanation for the changes. If the changes such as Aphrodite being the Amazons' patron goddess and the Amazons not wearing the bracers still being around once everything is back to normal, then I think some serious *****ing should occur.

Well, yeah, that's what I said. If there's no explanation for why those changes happened, then it's definitely a continuity flub on JMS' and DC's part. If it stays that why post-timeline fix, then it's just a flat out recton (that or JMS didn't know those details at all).

What about the lasso in Pre-Crisis continuity? Is there a story behind it or is it something that Diana and the Amazons just had? Because if that's the case, coupled with the patron swap, Corp might be right about JMS bringing back some Pre-Crisis elements into her origin

[Kurosawa]

Hippolyte gave Diana the Magic Lasso in Sensation Comics #6. It was forged for her from Aphrodite's girdle, the same girdle that made the Amazons invincible and that Heracules stole. So it's made from the girdle. Diana prayed to Athena and Aphrodite and the next day it was enchanted. So she didn't have the lasso at first, it was made for her in 1942.

[Tron Bonne]

Oh, I see, I wasn't sure. Seems like I remember her just kind of having it in that time period. Well, so then the whole bringing back some Pre-Crisis continuity might not be totally right then.

I don't know, for some reason, I still have a feeling the lasso is somehow from the real timeline and this villain stole it from the actual Wonder Woman, might even have something to do with this altercation. He implies that Hippolyta knows what is, but she never directly says she does in reply from what I could tell, so that might be somewhat of a red herring.

[Anubis]

Lulz, Mystical Girdle.

I want an atomic c**k ring. :o

[Kurosawa]

Oh, I see, I wasn't sure. Seems like I remember her just kind of having it in that time period. Well, so then the whole bringing back some Pre-Crisis continuity might not be totally right then.

I don't know, for some reason, I still have a feeling the lasso is somehow from the real timeline and this villain stole it from the actual Wonder Woman, might even have something to do with this altercation. He implies that Hippolyta knows what is, but she never directly says she does in reply from what I could tell, so that might be somewhat of a red herring.

I doubt JMS did any research into WW at all, not Pre or Post-Crisis.

[Tron Bonne]

Apparently Adam Hughes was also someone looked at for redesigning WW's costume:

http://i38.tinypic.com/144kd0.jpg

Not much different, but a little better than the one we have, since the top is closer to the original. Though...what she's holding and why is a mystery, gang

[Drz]

Yeah i really like that one. Just screams of a street warrior.

[TheCorpulent1]

Neither better nor worse than the final one to me. Is it supposed to be entirely black like that or was that just a rough version? :huh:

[Tron Bonne]

I believe it is kind of rough version, he didn't get much farther than this with his design. I think the top is actually suppose to be red, like the Lee one. I just noticed the random chains dangling, though.

[TheComicbookKid]

I'm wondering what that thing aroud her shoulders is supposed to be.

[Tron Bonne]

I dunno, some random necklace thing, I guess.

[fifthfiend]

I like it a bit better, and it has a bit less crap than the current one that you'd have to clean off of it to make it good.

A thousand percent less stupid-lookin' jacket, so there's that.

[TheCorpulent1]

I believe it is kind of rough version, he didn't get much farther than this with his design. I think the top is actually suppose to be red, like the Lee one. I just noticed the random chains dangling, though.
Pretty sure the chains are connected to the bracelets, totally unsymbolizing (that's a word, shut up) the bracelets and making them literal, functional shackles.

The neck... thing... reminds me of Stargate for some reason.

[fifthfiend]

Like, nix the belt, make it actual pants instead of a leotard w/ leggings, and it's pretty ace.

[TheCorpulent1]

I kind of miss the eagle head poking up out of her cleavage.

[Tron Bonne]

Variant for 602

http://i36.tinypic.com/2a9b5lh.jpg

[Kurosawa]

They all look like fan suits to me. WW's costume didn't need updating, unlike Robin's for example.

[TheCorpulent1]

The pants and bracers are growing on me. That jacket really needs to go, though.

[Tron Bonne]

http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=237&ai=98515&ssd=

Wonder Woman came in at #38 in July. It's better than what it has been, but lower than I believe Rucka's run was, and Simone's when it first began.

[hippie_hunter]

They all look like fan suits to me. WW's costume didn't need updating, unlike Robin's for example.
Wonder Woman needed some minor updates, like J'onn's outfit.

[Kurosawa]

Wonder Woman needed some minor updates, like J'onn's outfit.

Trunks to battle skirt, boots to sandals, eagle head lowered to where it doesn't look like she could impale herself on it...that's pretty much it to me. And keep busting out the cape from time to time.

[hippie_hunter]

Trunks to battle skirt, boots to sandals, eagle head lowered to where it doesn't look like she could impale herself on it...that's pretty much it to me. And keep busting out the cape from time to time.

Same here.

[Czar Colossus]

Some looks are iconic and must always go back to the classic look; Wonder Woman is one of those.... others are; Superman, Batman, Spider-man, Captain America, Captain Marvel (SHAZAM!), and....actually I think that's about it!

[Czar Colossus]

Apparently Adam Hughes was also someone looked at for redesigning WW's costume:

http://i38.tinypic.com/144kd0.jpg

Not much different, but a little better than the one we have, since the top is closer to the original. Though...what she's holding and why is a mystery, gang

Um....she's holding a stop sign! Maybe in Adam Hughes interprtation she becomes a crossing guard! I do love Adam Hughes.:woot:

[TheCorpulent1]

Trunks to battle skirt, boots to sandals, eagle head lowered to where it doesn't look like she could impale herself on it...that's pretty much it to me. And keep busting out the cape from time to time.
Just leave the cape on permanently. It really complements her look. I don't know why people don't put it on her all the time. There's something about all three of DC's trinity wearing capes that feels right to me.

[Kurosawa]

Just leave the cape on permanently. It really complements her look. I don't know why people don't put it on her all the time. There's something about all three of DC's trinity wearing capes that feels right to me.

Plus hers is like the most awesome cape design in comics.

[TheCorpulent1]

Which version? I've always been partial to the blue cape with white trim and white stars that Jim Lee tends to draw.

[Drz]

http://i38.tinypic.com/25socaw.jpg
WONDER WOMAN #605
Written by J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Art and cover by DON KRAMER & JAY LEISTEN
1:10 Variant cover by ALEX GARNER
As Wonder Woman continues her quest to find out exactly what happened to her current reality and who is ultimately responsible, she encounters the first of the three most deadly gods known to man. Together, they comprise...the Morrigan!

Morrigan is an Irish name meaning "great queen". Morrigan shares her name with the goddess of war and death of Irish mythology who often took the form of a crow. The Morrigan of Irish lore appears as both a young and beautiful woman as well as an old and ugly one. She is also a manipulative person. :p

[Tron Bonne]

Yay, more new villains....

...

And isn't that just the variant cover to 602..?

[Anubis]

Now that I've had time to get a good look at WW's new costume, I've come to the conclusion that she's missing something..........She needs a codpiece.

[TheCorpulent1]

That should be DC's new thing. DC Comics: Home of the Superhero Codpiece.

[fifthfiend]

Now that I've had time to get a good look at WW's new costume, I've come to the conclusion that she's missing something..........She needs a codpiece.

She needs to do like that one scene in Sixteen Candles, then people'll take her seriously.

[Drz]

Yay, more new villains....

Well if you wanna think positively, atleast they are mythically based villains.


And isn't that just the variant cover to 602..?

Yeah i was wondering about the cover myself, but thats what Newsrama putted up.

Now that I've had time to get a good look at WW's new costume, I've come to the conclusion that she's missing something..........She needs a codpiece.


Strap-on aswell!

[Mystirious]

Yay, more new villains....

...

And isn't that just the variant cover to 602..?

If the villain is a god it might be Ares or Hades


That should be DC's new thing. DC Comics: Home of the Superhero Codpiece.


:awesome:

[Tron Bonne]

If the villain is a god it might be Ares or Hades

In the solicit it says the villain is named Morrigan

Well if you wanna think positively, atleast they are mythically based villains.

A lot of the newer villains introduced have been to some degree. WW has a rogue gallery somewhere, I've seen them

[Mystirious]

In the solicit it says the villain is named Morrigan

It says that the villin is one of three who form something called the Morrigan

Might still be Ares

I hope:csad:


A lot of the newer villains introduced have been to some degree. WW has a rogue gallery somewhere, I've seen them

Lies:awesome:

:csad:

[Drz]

A lot of the newer villains introduced have been to some degree. WW has a rogue gallery somewhere, I've seen them

I understand. Let's hope JMS knows more than just Cheetah. :p I mean i know this is gonna sound like a lame excuse, but we still gotta remember all these enemies and so forth are just challanges from the Gods. Still they could use some monsters that we've seen before i guess.

[Tron Bonne]

Do we know they're a challenge from the Gods or are you just assuming that? I don't really remember that being said, yet.

[Drz]

I'm assuming this since it's been established in #600 that the Gods feel Diana is underappreciated and want to mold her into the warrior they wish. Yeah it's stupid of me to make statements instead of saying "assume" but yeah... Diana is more or less in a video game if you think about it. :p