Can Spider-Man be saved?

[Gregatron]

What does everyone think? Is it possible that Spider-Man's legacy will somehow, someday retreive it's lost lustre, or will the character sink further and further into oblivion with each new embarrassment/insult/wrong turn inflicted upon him?

Is Spider-Man...the REAL Spider-Man, a character once beloved the world round, gone forever? Is he beyond saving from the actions of the narrow-minded writers/editors and idiotic fans who would destroy all that made him so great? Does that character even EXIST anymore, perhaps merely buried under tons of worthless, horrifying new powers/origins/costume/history and mischaracterizations?

Please discuss, and describe your reasons for your stance on the issue.

[Dragon]

Marvel can certainly be saved. They've been around for going on 50 years and their foundation is good. Dedicated, talented people that look at the characters and fans as more than lab rats they can screw with for s**** and giggles could pull Marvel out of its rut. Whether or not that will happen is another matter.

[stillanerd]

Well, as long as the books are selling high (and, yes, Amazing Spider-Man has apparently sold a lot of copies--although one does have to factor in those varient covers) then Joe Q and Marvel probably feel that they can just keep doing what they're doing. But sooner or later, the readers will get a little tired of the gimmicks. And that's when the writers and editors will HAVE TO start fixing the problems they themselves created when they thought they we're imporving things.

As for Spider-Man himself, I think it's possible to get him back on track, although it would be a challenge. Short of actually revamping the entire Marvel Universe a la Crisis on Infinite Earths/Infinite Crisis (although I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel doesn't try it down the road) Peter Parker is not going to be a young single college student again--at least if MJ isn't killed or they deage him somehow first. With that in mind, future writers have to not only know the character's history and respect it, treat it as backstory, write the character in character, and move on from there with stories that are a balance between comedy and pathos, nothing grim and gritty--and for God's sake NO MORE TOTEMS!

[Joker]

Can Spider-Man be saved?? After what I just read,I'm starting to wonder....

But I'll say yes.That's what retcons are for.Though Spidey's going to need a truck load of them at this rate.

[Gregatron]

Well, as long as the books are selling high (and, yes, Amazing Spider-Man has apparently sold a lot of copies--although does have to factor in those varient covers) then Joe Q and Marvel probably feel that they can just keep doing what they're doing. But sooner or later, the readers will get a little tired of the gimmicks. And that's when the writers and editors will try to start fixing the problems they themselves created when they thought they we're imporving things.

As for Spider-Man himself, I think it's possible to get him back on track, although it would be a challenge. Short of actually revamping the entire Marvel Universe a la Crisis on Infinite Earths/Infinite Crisis (although I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel doesn't try it down the road) Peter Parker is not going to be a young single college student again--at least if MJ isn't killed or they deage him somehow first. With that in mind, future writers have to not only know the character's history and respect it, treat it as backstory, write the character in character, and move on from there with stories that are a balance between comedy and pathos, nothing grim and gritty--and for God's sake NO MORE TOTEMS!


Before the Spectator Boom of the 90s, Marvel's cancellation point for a book was 100,000 copies sold per issue. At its peak, Amazing Spider-Man sold around 400,000-600,000 copies. Today, it's barely holding firm at 70,000-80,000 copies.

But everything's great, right? Sales have never been better, right?


Fact is, writers have tried for decades now to "fix" Spider-Man, and nothing has worked. In fact, things have gotten much, much worse. I think moving Peter to college starting the ball rolling, Gwen's death created a firm foothold, the marriage was catastrophic, and the Clone Saga/Reboot/JMS stuff shattered the mythos for good.

Byrne and Mackie wanted to use the Shaper of Worlds to undo everything and get Peter back into high school (but with memories of everything he'd experienced since then). That's looking better and better to me all the time.

[stillanerd]

Before the Spectator Boom of the 90s, Marvel's cancellation point for a book was 100,000 copies sold per issue. At its peak, Amazing Spider-Man sold around 400,000-600,000 copies. Today, it's barely holding firm at 70,000-80,000 copies.

But everything's great, right? Sales have never been better, right?

And I agree. The speculator boom combined with the grim n' gritty and Image fads almost ruined the comic book industry. What's even more ironic is that Joe Q is restorting to some of the gimmicks of the 90s to sell books, including bringing back Liefeld's Heroes Reborn Universe for the upcoming "Onslaught Reborn" mini. And the sad thing is, as long as they percieve the sales go up for this stuff, then they'll keep cranking it out.

Fact is, writers have tried for decades now to "fix" Spider-Man, and nothing has worked. In fact, things have gotten much, much worse. I think moving Peter to college starting the ball rolling, Gwen's death created a firm foothold, the marriage was catastrophic, and the Clone Saga/Reboot/JMS stuff shattered the mythos for good.

Byrne and Mackie wanted to use the Shaper of Worlds to undo everything and get Peter back into high school (but with memories of everything he'd experienced since then). That's looking better and better to me all the time.

Well, Peter in college was probably the ideal set-up for him, not too young and not too old either, and you certainly have some validity with regards with the other three examples--although I definately agree with the last one.

As for Byrne and Mackie Shaper of Worlds idea (probably didn't go through with because of then EIC Bob Harras, which is why we ended up with Chapter One and the reboot instead) that makes me wonder whether Marvel fans would've gone along with a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" scenario with Marvel. Although one can certainly ask "If they can get away with it for DC, why not Marvel?"

[Shin-Natsume]

id say, he just wakes up from a dream and we are back into spider-man before the 90s...
and just continue after tha. simply forget everything from tha period till now...

THEN he can be saved somehow...

[Dragon]

After seeing the spoilers from FNSM #7, I'm reconsidering my vote. :rolleyes:

[Gregatron]

And I agree. The speculator boom combined with the grim n' gritty and Image fads almost ruined the comic book industry. What's even more ironic is that Joe Q is restorting to some of the gimmicks of the 90s to sell books, including bringing back Liefeld's Heroes Reborn Universe for the upcoming "Onslaught Reborn" mini. And the sad thing is, as long as they percieve the sales go up for this stuff, then they'll keep cranking it out.



Well, Peter in college was probably the ideal set-up for him, not too young and not too old either, and you certainly have some validity with regards with the other three examples--although I definately agree with the last one.

As for Byrne and Mackie Shaper of Worlds idea (probably didn't go through with because of then EIC Bob Harras, which is why we ended up with Chapter One and the reboot instead) that makes me wonder whether Marvel fans would've gone along with a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" scenario with Marvel. Although one can certainly ask "If they can get away with it for DC, why not Marvel?"


To paraphrase what a wise man once said: "At Marvel, we don't need to reboot our characters. We got 'em right the first time".

What once was and is now no more merely needs to be restored. We don't need yet another "new spin" or "reboot" or "revamp". A cosmic time warp that would restore what has been lost would be acceptable. A cosmic time warp that would rewrite or "put a new spin" on past history would NOT be acceptable.

[stillanerd]

^^^
Ah, I see. Go back in time to a point, say the start of the Secret Wars, and then make it seem like everything after that point never actually happened.

After seeing the spoilers from FNSM #7, I'm reconsidering my vote. :rolleyes:

No kidding. And I'll have to add another notch to my "worst moment in Spider-Man history" list. :down:mad::down

[Effect]

Can he be saved?

Wheren't people already claiming that Ultimate Spider-man Peter Parker/Spiderman was more Peter/Spidey then the current 616 version and had been for a while?

I had a weird thought recently. If Marvel was somehow able (no matter how unlikely this is to happen mind you, just go with this for a moment) to basicly insert the Ultimate Spider-man verison into the 616 universe and did away with the 616 version and removed the Ultiamte verison from the Ultimate Universe (bring Kitty, Aunt May, and MJ along I say) but set things up so that they fit and meshed with the current Marvel 616 universe. What would you reaction be? What do you think the general reaction would be?

Cause in a way it would be like Marvel basiclly washing their hands of 616 Spidey in favor of the Ultimate verison but the U version becomes the new 616 version (with an already built in fan base that might consist of U version Spidey fans and a lot of 616 fans). Not getting into the problems of meshing this with other heros and what remains of 616 Spidey's life and how others would react to this new Peter, MJ, Aunt May and Kitty (can't leave her hehe). Do you think it could possibly work if done the right way? Would that be acceptable as a way of "saving" Spider-man instead of wasting time doing retcon after retcon, trying to undo events, etc??

Or should I just walk away, well run away now, for even suggesting this?

[imdaly]

Can Spider-Man be saved?



As long as you have a memory card or HDD!

[Dyeathrose]

I still want to be optimistic, as long as Marvel could get on the ball and focus on what's important, not the sales for the earth-shattering events or varient covers, but the ability to hold a good story, no matter how many or few comics it takes. Though, with the FNSP spoiler...I almost wanted to put no.

Can he be saved?

Wheren't people already claiming that Ultimate Spider-man Peter Parker/Spiderman was more Peter/Spidey then the current 616 version and had been for a while?

I had a weird thought recently. If Marvel was somehow able (no matter how unlikely this is to happen mind you, just go with this for a moment) to basicly insert the Ultimate Spider-man verison into the 616 universe and did away with the 616 version and removed the Ultiamte verison from the Ultimate Universe (bring Kitty, Aunt May, and MJ along I say) but set things up so that they fit and meshed with the current Marvel 616 universe. What would you reaction be? What do you think the general reaction would be?

My general reaction would not be a happy one; what I had heard when Marvel first planned the Ultimate Universe (or this could've been my assumption) was that is was a chance to take the backstories of the Marvel classics and deage it back to the beginning, so instead of interfering with 616, there was something fresh and new for people to read if they didn't want to go back through all the old stories. I thought that was a great idea, so that way titles like Spider-man could go forward without reheshing the past and not worry about if he's getting too old, etc. Even with all the problems in 616, I wouldn't want to see the two combined; there's too much gap difference between age, and doing so would also need to effect the X-Men universe (granted, I'm not too sure what's going on with Kitty there, other than the occassinal snark at Emma, I just flip through the comics), so it would take more to do that than just retcon in my opinion.

Cause in a way it would be like Marvel basiclly washing their hands of 616 Spidey in favor of the Ultimate verison but the U version becomes the new 616 version (with an already built in fan base that might consist of U version Spidey fans and a lot of 616 fans). Not getting into the problems of meshing this with other heros and what remains of 616 Spidey's life and how others would react to this new Peter, MJ, Aunt May and Kitty (can't leave her hehe). Do you think it could possibly work if done the right way? Would that be acceptable as a way of "saving" Spider-man instead of wasting time doing retcon after retcon, trying to undo events, etc??

Or should I just walk away, well run away now, for even suggesting this?

As I said, I wouldn't want Marvel to take away the 616 universe, I love the past stories there are, and many of them are still classics and wonderfully constructed in my eyes. Ultimate was supposed to bring a spin to change up the stories [IE: Gwen's death, Venom/Carnage, etc.] and make it set in current times where new readers could relate in a sense. I do like Ultimate, and collected a number of back issues, but I also love 616, and wouldn't want to see it go.

No, don't run for suggesting it, it's not a bad idea, I just don't think it would be a very popular one, after all, the basis of Ultimate had to come from 616. :)

[LarryLegend]

At this point, I like the make everything up to 98 cannon and reboot from there idea. No JMS and the dreck of the last 8 years.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Yes, Spider-Man can be saved if only he puts his faith in the lord-a Jesus-a! He must give himself over to Christ's love and only then will he be healed-a! Praise the lord! Take pitty on the wrechtes who serve you! Can I get an A-amen!

[Cullen]

Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Batman, Superman, and a ton of DC characters went through rough patches and have come through to better tales. Same could happen here.

[Cullen]

Yes, Spider-Man can be saved if only he puts his faith in the lord-a Jesus-a! He must give himself over to Christ's love and only then will he be healed-a! Praise the lord! Take pitty on the wrechtes who serve you! Can I get an A-amen!AMEN! (God I wis I thought of this post.:up:)

[SouLeSS]

I suppose they could retcon everything that happened in the Marvel Universe for the past 15 years, but why would they do that?

[hulkamania85]

I have this paranoid feeling that they're throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks so that they can eventually phase out 616 for Ultimate and people won't complain at that point.

Of course Spider-Man's legacy will continue, people will just forget the bad storylines ever happened. Simple as that.

[Cyclops]

Can it be saved? Of course.

Marvel needs to get their priorities straight. We don't buy their books because of the shocking events, or the continuity swap-ups, or the costume changes, or the power changes.

We buy because of the characters. Get writers who care about the characters, and who are more interested in telling good stories instead of leaving their mark on Spidey's history and Spidey will be saved. Simple as that.

In simpler words, PUT DAN SLOTT ON A SPIDER-MAN BOOK.

[Citizen_Kaine]

Agreed, Slott = The Spider Messiah

[Cyclops]

He's just like, the only guy in the whole industry who remembers that comicbooks can be fun.

Not heavy-handed Millar propaganda, not convoluted history-altering JMS bunk, not character misinterpreting Bendis hooey, but honest-to-God fun reads!

[SpideyInATree]

This is a tad overdramatic, don't you think? Like Spider-Man is really dying and nobody will care about him anymore.

I happen to see the exact opposite happening. I see people who weren't normally into Spider-Man getting into it. So, isn't that what Marvel comics wants to do? Get newer readers for the book so that it can go on? Because not all of Spider-Man's long time fans are going to outlive their favorite character.

Can I understand fans concerns? Of course. A lot of fans grew up with a different kind of Spider-Man that we see in the comic book now. Now, when you were a teen, little kid, etc, things were different, right? You got older, a little wiser, and had some fun in between. People grow up. So do our favorite ficitional characters. The way I see it Marvel is slowly moving the character on. Sometimes an everyman steps up and does something great for the world and gets recognized for that. Does it change him? Well, it depends on his personality. But would Peter Parker change? No. And through Sins Past, The Other, a new suit, and new powers. Has Peter Parker's character changed? No. His surroundings have changed. His supporting cast has drastically changed. But Peter Parker is Peter Parker, always has been and always will be.

When Marvel takes that away from the Spider-Man comics...THEN we'll talk about Spider-Man being saved. But right now I just see an overreaction from fans who just don't enjoy what's going on. Nothing wrong with being upset with what's wrong but talking like Spider-Man will seriously DIE because you personally don't like the story...that is being rather overdramatic, in my opinion.

[Herr Logan]

I honestly now believe that it's better off dead. It's clearly not dead right now, and it won't be cancelled any time soon. What it needs "saving" from is the disease it's ridden with (most of you know what I'm talking about, so I won't bother rambling on about it). The only certain cure for a *****ty life is death.

I don't see Spider-Man as strictly being a period piece-- as in best suited for the 60's and 70's-- but since a few questionable decisions were made (I'm not talking about anything that happened in the last 8 or so years... those aren't "questionable," those are just plain wrong, period) and the writers and editors of the past era haven't been able to handle it, it's better off dead. As far as I'm concerned, arrogant hacks like JMS and Bendis can never truly take away what has come before. They don't have the skill or drive to make their trashy little retcons make sense and fit with known history, so that's not the problem. Still, it would be better if the stories now immortalized in back issues and trade paperbacks of all kinds were just left alone as great works of fiction in American literary history. Those early stories more than deserve that level of consideration, regardless of narrow-minded views of comics.

The biggest "questionable decision" I'm thinking of is Peter getting married. Spider-Man definitely worked better as a single, not-yet-fully-mature superhero. It's not about keeping him available for countless love interest stories, but about keeping him more flexible and in less of a monotonous routine. Mary Jane truly is a ball and chain, as pretty much any spouse would be. Heroes like Cyclops and Jean Grey already work together and actually lived together from the very beginning of their comic series, so that's not a major change. It's different with Spider-Man.

I got into comics well after Spidey had been married and started his decline, and I was attracted by the dynamic action and the humor. Years later, looking at the early issues, I see there was something truly brilliant there, that I couldn't have appreciated as a child.

Sherlock Holmes fans probably wouldn't appreciate amoral writers and editors screwing with their favorite character with watered-down and trashified "modern" stories. I can't blame the people who decided Spider-Man and the rest of the Marvel universe was going to live on when future writers couldn't handle it, and from a marketing perspective, obviously that was the right choice. Still, from a literary perspective, this dog won't hunt no more and should be taken out behind the barn and put out of its misery.

:wolverine

[Flonk]

He's in trouble? I'm loving the Spidey books right now. How quickly you people forget the Byrne/Mackie years.

[Flonk]

Can it be saved? Of course.

Marvel needs to get their priorities straight. We don't buy their books because of the shocking events, or the continuity swap-ups, or the costume changes, or the power changes.

We buy because of the characters. Get writers who care about the characters, and who are more interested in telling good stories instead of leaving their mark on Spidey's history and Spidey will be saved. Simple as that.

In simpler words, PUT DAN SLOTT ON A SPIDER-MAN BOOK.

Robert Kirkman on Amazing

Dan Slott on FNSM

Sean McKeever on Sensational.

I'll be the happiest geek in Texas.

[co2]

Can it be saved? Of course.

Marvel needs to get their priorities straight. We don't buy their books because of the shocking events, or the continuity swap-ups, or the costume changes, or the power changes.

We buy because of the characters. Get writers who care about the characters, and who are more interested in telling good stories instead of leaving their mark on Spidey's history and Spidey will be saved. Simple as that.



That's why I read Ultimate Spidey only. It seems to have a handle on that.

[jaydawg]

Oh please, it wouldn't be a challenge at all. Just ignore this idiotic spider-totem thing, Sins Past (and looks like writers already have) and make sure his ID isnt leaked. Thats it. Pretty simple really. Having Spidey on the Avengers is hardly ruining the character. If anything, its evolving him. Organic webs dont really matter. We already know he's a genius. The bone spikes? Just dont reference them. The Iron spider look? From the get go, we knew it was just to continue the Civil War plot. If there is anything I'm missing from the Spider titles are the classic villians. With the exception of Millar's MKSM, when was the last time we saw Electro? Vulture? Venom? Scorpion? Rhino? Come on. The guy easily has the best rogues gallery at Marvel and for some reason the closest we're getting towards seeing them represented is in a story based on a bunch of third stringers in Sensational.

[wolvie2020]

Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Batman, Superman, and a ton of DC characters went through rough patches and have come through to better tales. Same could happen here.

Exactly. People can't be so naive or play down how talented comic book writers can be. Super-Man, Wonder-Woman and Batman between them have had DECADES worth of bad story telling, but they all seem to have been revamped, 'fixed,' and also pioneered new comic book directions. Spidey can have they same.

Unforunately, as with ANY charachter that has continuous serials lasting this long, MAJOR hiccups are bound to happen. I'm not saying saving him will be easy, or happen quick, it's going to take someone 1st steering things in the right direction. It's then going to take other people following suit, being like minded, and having a genuine love for the charachters.

Look at what the guys @ DC are doing with IC. While I do think a lot of it is more than a tad forced, and just straight up corny sometimes, it is working for the DCU. Sales have gone nuts for their company, they're getting respect for being bold, (or as I think, finally catching up,) and best of all, people who love the DCU are gong nuts about this. And most importantly, when they do kill a charachter, you get a feeling of something big has just happened. And you do feel sad. Charachters I never even knew existed I'm feeling sorry for

Many people said that this couldn't be done, but it has been, and DC doing this takes a hell of a lot more work than fixing Spidey.

All we need now is for the people who say that they hate the stories, to just stop buying them! That would help a great deal

[dan1]

Sherlock Holmes fans probably wouldn't appreciate amoral writers and editors screwing with their favorite character with watered-down and trashified "modern" stories. I can't blame the people who decided Spider-Man and the rest of the Marvel universe was going to live on when future writers couldn't handle it, and from a marketing perspective, obviously that was the right choice. Still, from a literary perspective, this dog won't hunt no more and should be taken out behind the barn and put out of its misery.

:wolverine

I like this reference to Holmes, as I love the Conan Doyle Holmes Books. The Granada series starring the late great Jeremy Brett was as close an interpretation to the stories as possible.

The new movie, where Rupert Everett plays Holmes was not written by Doyle, but was written about a retired Holmes coming out of retirement to solve a case and was very good.

But almost all of that other crap that has "Sherlock Holmes" stamped on it, is garbage. It's written by hacks that misrepresent the character and obviously did not read the source material when coming up with their original stories.

REMIND YOU OF ANYBODY?? :D

(example>See Basil Rathbone in a 1930's car in one of his Holmes Movies.)(HA!)

(See Peter Parker Drive to work in his car, which he never had a license for and never drove before and was not explained because JMS never cared to know.

[Herr Logan]

I like this reference to Holmes, as I love the Conan Doyle Holmes Books. The Granada series starring the late great Jeremy Brett was as close an interpretation to the stories as possible.

The new movie, where Rupert Everett plays Holmes was not written by Doyle, but was written about a retired Holmes coming out of retirement to solve a case and was very good.

But almost all of that other crap that has "Sherlock Holmes" stamped on it, is garbage. It's written by hacks that misrepresent the character and obviously did not read the source material when coming up with their original stories.

REMIND YOU OF ANYBODY?? :D

(example>See Basil Rathbone in a 1930's car in one of his Holmes Movies.)(HA!)

(See Peter Parker Drive to work in his car, which he never had a license for and never drove before and was not explained because JMS never cared to know.

I never read a Sherlock Holmes story in my life. I just thought it would be a good example. :O

:wolverine

[Cullen]

I like this reference to Holmes, as I love the Conan Doyle Holmes Books. The Granada series starring the late great Jeremy Brett was as close an interpretation to the stories as possible.

The new movie, where Rupert Everett plays Holmes was not written by Doyle, but was written about a retired Holmes coming out of retirement to solve a case and was very good.

But almost all of that other crap that has "Sherlock Holmes" stamped on it, is garbage. It's written by hacks that misrepresent the character and obviously did not read the source material when coming up with their original stories.

REMIND YOU OF ANYBODY?? :D

(example>See Basil Rathbone in a 1930's car in one of his Holmes Movies.)(HA!)

(See Peter Parker Drive to work in his car, which he never had a license for and never drove before and was not explained because JMS never cared to know.The novel "Sherlock Holmes v. Dracula" is pretty good, and "A Study in Emerald" by Neil Gaiman is excellent, but you're right. The majority of non-Dolye Sherlock Holmes stories are crap. Most sequels done by people other than the original writers are to be avoid unless reason (or deep curiousity) says otherwise...

[Flonk]

(See Peter Parker Drive to work in his car, which he never had a license for and never drove before and was not explained because JMS never cared to know.

Two words for you. Spider-Mobile.

[CConn]

I agree with Cullen, jaydawg, and wolvie 2020.

Congratulations. You'll all be recieving stickers later on.

[SpideyInATree]

Two words for you. Spider-Mobile.

Pete also drove a motorcycle back in the early years when Stan Lee wrote it. Need a license for those.

I'm sure JMS had a killer idea called "The Driver's License Center from Hell" where it was a eight issue epic life changing story of Peter Parker, GETTING HIS DRIVERS LICENSE!!!!! :eek:

But they decided Sins Past was a better idea. :confused:

[Dragon]

Two words for you. Spider-Mobile.

And you saw what happened when Peter tried to drive it, right?

[Flonk]

And you saw what happened when Peter tried to drive it, right?

If I remember correctly, hilarity ensued.

[MajinShenron]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?


He's been warned - E

[Herr Logan]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?

How about you go sit in the corner and contemplate your failures, you pathetic little troll?

:wolverine

[Cullen]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?The hell?

[LarryLegend]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?

WTF? :eek: :confused:

[LarryLegend]

Pete also drove a motorcycle back in the early years when Stan Lee wrote it. Need a license for those.

I'm sure JMS had a killer idea called "The Driver's License Center from Hell" where it was a eight issue epic life changing story of Peter Parker, GETTING HIS DRIVERS LICENSE!!!!! :eek:

But they decided Sins Past was a better idea. :confused:

lol. :up:

[MajinShenron]

All you guys do is complain. What do you guys want to see boring, redundant battles? Bank robberies get boring.

[Herr Logan]

All you guys do is complain. What do you guys want to see boring, redundant battles? Bank robberies get boring.

Useless little child, perhaps I should have been more clear earlier:

Go sit in the corner and contemplate your failures quietly.

:wolverine

[MajinShenron]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.

[Abaddon]

If a good writer comes along,then yes.The possibility is always there.First then need to get rid of Norman though,and undo all the damage associated with that character.

[jaydawg]

I agree with Cullen, jaydawg, and wolvie 2020.

Congratulations. You'll all be recieving stickers later on.
Sha-weet!!

[Herr Logan]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.

Hey, I may be mistaken, but I have this crazy notion that-- *gasp* --you may have signed up on this same forum!

What the hell does my post count have to do with you being an unwanted troll with nothing useful to say in this thread? Go on, I'll wait for you to come up with another juvenile non-sequiter designed to divert attention from your failure.

Feckless child.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Hey, I may be mistaken, but I have this crazy notion that-- *gasp* --you may have signed up on this same forum!

What the hell does my post count have to do with you being an unwanted troll with nothing useful to say in this thread? Go on, I'll wait for you to come up with another juvenile non-sequiter designed to divert attention from your failure.

Feckless child.

:wolverine



*documents material*



So,how exactly would Mysterio be able to manipulate the goings-on for the past 6(I think:confused:) years since his "death"?

[Herr Logan]

*documents material*

Meaning what?

If that's another term for "TiVo'd," then you and I are done talkin'.

So,how exactly would Mysterio be able to manipulate the goings-on for the past 6(I think:confused:) years since his "death"?

First off, he didn't die. A master of special effects and illusion, who knows what Daredevil's capabilities are, seems to blow his brains out in front of the hero. Right, I'll buy that. If Adrian Toomes can beat cancer, so can Quentin Beck.

Second of all, I don't really know how the Cosmic Cube works, but for Mysterio to screw with the entire Marvel Universe so that several years of bad writing happened when it shouldn't have, he'd need something more than his Soundstage o' Tricks. Hell, it wouldn't have to be Mysterio. I only tossed that name out there because he was my magic answer to 'Sins Past.' He could have been behind that, but not everything else that's happened at Marvel that shouldn't have. It should probably be someone with a little more ambition and vision than Mysterio, truth be told.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Meaning what?

If that's another term for "TiVo'd," then you and I are done talkin'.

Try not reading so much into things.



First off, he didn't die. A master of special effects and illusion, who knows what Daredevil's capabilities are, seems to blow his brains out in front of the hero. Right, I'll buy that. If Adrian Toomes can beat cancer, so can Quentin Beck.

Second of all, I don't really know how the Cosmic Cube works, but for Mysterio to screw with the entire Marvel Universe so that several years of bad writing happened when it shouldn't have, he'd need something more than his Soundstage o' Tricks. Hell, it wouldn't have to be Mysterio. I only tossed that name out there because he was my magic answer to 'Sins Past.' He could have been behind that, but not everything else that's happened at Marvel that shouldn't have. It should probably be someone with a little more ambition and vision than Mysterio, truth be told.

:wolverine


Kosmos.:o

[Cullen]

I agree with Cullen, jaydawg, and wolvie 2020.

Congratulations. You'll all be recieving stickers later on.Hurray!

[Cullen]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.Oh look, post envy!

Don't worry. With a lot of hard work and training, you too might have a post worthy having.

Er... post count worth having. Yeah. That's what I meant

[Herr Logan]

Try not reading so much into things.
No can do.

Kosmos.:o
Uh huh.

:wolverine

[LarryLegend]

How about it was a dream (worked for Dallas, haha)?

[shinlyle]

Exactly. People can't be so naive or play down how talented comic book writers can be. Super-Man, Wonder-Woman and Batman between them have had DECADES worth of bad story telling, but they all seem to have been revamped, 'fixed,' and also pioneered new comic book directions. Spidey can have they same.

Unforunately, as with ANY charachter that has continuous serials lasting this long, MAJOR hiccups are bound to happen. I'm not saying saving him will be easy, or happen quick, it's going to take someone 1st steering things in the right direction. It's then going to take other people following suit, being like minded, and having a genuine love for the charachters.

Look at what the guys @ DC are doing with IC. While I do think a lot of it is more than a tad forced, and just straight up corny sometimes, it is working for the DCU. Sales have gone nuts for their company, they're getting respect for being bold, (or as I think, finally catching up,) and best of all, people who love the DCU are gong nuts about this. And most importantly, when they do kill a charachter, you get a feeling of something big has just happened. And you do feel sad. Charachters I never even knew existed I'm feeling sorry for

Many people said that this couldn't be done, but it has been, and DC doing this takes a hell of a lot more work than fixing Spidey.

All we need now is for the people who say that they hate the stories, to just stop buying them! That would help a great deal

As always, man, you're response says what I think!

Can he be saved? Absolutely! I wouldn't be posting my contempt for the powers that be at Marvel if I didn't think my favorite hero could be brought back from the brink! If the fight was over, I'd move on.

But it's comics! The fight is always on...things can always be changed, and the wrongs can always be righted....and for that reason alone, I'm still here with you guys hoping that Marvel wakes up from their money-making haze and realizes that they're living off of hype...and when the hype fades....people will read these storied a little more closely, and they'll realize how bad things have gotten...and then we may head into another "Dark Age" like we did in the 90's.

Can he be saved....yes. Will he be saved? Absolutely! Will he be saved soon....

...that is the real question. :(

[Dangerous]

The only way SM can be saved is if a good team comes onto ASM who are genuine fans themselves can see the SM titles for the terrible mess they are right now and then spend a year ret coning Sins Past onwards.

I really hope this happens eventually, but the longer things go on as they are (Joe Q and JMS at the helm) there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink.
Will it get to a point were there is too much mess to be cleaned up?
Is there any writer out there who could be a candidate for writing SM and cares as much as we do about the situation?
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to that...
Maybe, just maybe Loeb/JSC could fix the mess over a period of time..

[dan1]

Two words for you. Spider-Mobile.

I didn't say he physically couldn't drive.

I have an even more obscure one then that, Web of Spider-Man #28.

But....what I was saying was he never drove in the city to work as Peter Parker, legally.

Spider-mobile was obviously illegally driving, you can't have a legal Drivers' License with a Mask on.

Now getting a license at the DMV, etc. would have made for Character Building, continuity enriching and would have been a pain for Peter, it would have been a great addtion.

But JMS didn't know or care that Peter never did that, and just assumed that Peter drove to work in a car.

[shinlyle]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.

Wow.....you have actually posted the most pathetic post of the year.

He's a loser for posting here 11,000 times...yet you're posting on an internet message board to say it....

Idiot. :rolleyes:

[shinlyle]

I didn't say he physically couldn't drive.

I have an even more obscure one then that, Web of Spider-Man #28.

But....what I was saying was he never drove in the city to work as Peter Parker, legally.

Spider-mobile was obviously illegally driving, you can't have a legal Drivers' License with a Mask on.

Now getting a license at the DMV, etc. would have made for Character Building, continuity enriching and would have been a pain for Peter, it would have been a great addtion.

But JMS didn't know or care that Peter never did that, and just assumed that Peter drove to work in a car.

Also, for those who use the "Peter drove a motorcycle" argument, you need a different liscense to drive a motorcycle than to drive a passenger vehicle. One liscense doesn't mean you automatically get the other.

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

[Herr Logan]

The only way SM can be saved is if a good team comes onto ASM who are genuine fans themselves can see the SM titles for the terrible mess they are right now and then spend a year ret coning Sins Past onwards.

I really hope this happens eventually, but the longer things go on as they are (Joe Q and JMS at the helm) there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink.
Will it get to a point were there is too much mess to be cleaned up?
Is there any writer out there who could be a candidate for writing SM and cares as much as we do about the situation?
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to that...
Maybe, just maybe Loeb/JSC could fix the mess over a period of time..

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull***** to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull***** to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

:wolverine

Exactly.

Marvel's main problem lies witht he fact that they refuse to admit they made a mistake. In their eyes, it's their character, and they can do whatever the hell they want to with him. We fans don't count.

If we can get a new EIC in there....one who respects the work of those who created the Marvel Universe, then MAYBE we can begin to un-f*** all of this mess.

[Herr Logan]

Also, for those who use the "Peter drove a motorcycle" argument, you need a different liscense to drive a motorcycle than to drive a passenger vehicle. One liscense doesn't mean you automatically get the other.

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

This isn't strictly canon, but in that Spider-Man novel by Diane Duane that featured the Lizard and Venom (I think it was called 'The Lizard Sanction,' Peter was said to have a driver's license that he seldom used, but put it to use when he went to Florida on a photo assigment and rented a car.

There's nothing incredible about Peter having a driver's license. What should have been addressed is Peter spontaneously owning a car.

:wolverine

[Joker]

I'd be all for Mysterio being used as a retcon,only if it was Quentin Beck that did it.I don't like the new Mysterio guy.I hate pretenders.

It's got to be the original or nothing.But the problem is that Beck is dead.....

[Herr Logan]

I'd be all for Mysterio being used as a retcon,only if it was Quentin Beck that did it.I don't like the new Mysterio guy.I hate pretenders.

It's got to be the original or nothing.But the problem is that Beck is dead.....

Beck is a pretender. One of the best, supposedly. ;)

Seriously, I totally agree. I wouldn't dignify anything that came out of 'The Evil That Men Do.' It was a *****ty story. Yes, there was some noble intent behind some of the monologuing, but it ruins the effect if it's at the expense of character consistency.

Spider-Man gets webbed up with his own web-shooters by a woman who isn't nearly as strong or fast as he is? The Black Cat has a brand new motivation for becoming a thief, when she already had one? Yeah, you can go screw yourself, Kevin Smith, 'cuz I ain't buyin' it. Next time you want to educate the comics-reading population on rape, you do it with your own characters and don't try to make us feel sympathy for a person who was raped and then became a rapist. Also, don't ever say that comics is a priority to you over movies when you spend three years making *****ty films designed to hook your pet actors up with pretentious, overly-defensive pop stars, leaving a crappy miniseries half-finished only to have the second half be ten times worse than the first.

*achem*

Anyway, I don't disparage what Kevin Smith did with Daredevil, though. He got rid of that untrustworthy, skank junky Karen Page, and Mysterio in no way definitively died at the end. There's just no reason at all why a man whose forte is casting illusions can't fake his death when he knows how to fool the hyper-senses of the person he "kills" himself in front of. Even if he did have terminal cancer, so did Adrian Toomes. The Vulture is more badass than Mysterio could ever hope to be, but regardless, he could pull it off. This is the Marvel Universe, where the death rate has only just exceeded the ressurrection rate.

I say, have the real Mysterio kill the new fake one and be done with it. Does that seem like a waste of those last couple pages of 'The Evil That Men Do'? Newsflash, the whole story was a waste of dead trees and printer ink. Let's get back to basics and leave the bull***** dead and buried.

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

Yep, we just gotta inject "realism" into those crappy, one-dimensional characters that Lee and Ditko created, right?

No one read the books until they became realistic. All that old crap needs to be reinvented for a new generation and made KEWL. I'd rather see Mysterio commit suicide than vex Spider-Man with amazing illusions. We should worship at Kevin Smith's feet for turning those stupid characters into flawed, realistic ones.


Oh.


Wait.


I forgot.


We live on earth.


And on earth, writers who do things like that are bad.

[Herr Logan]

Yep, we just gotta inject "realism" into those crappy, one-dimensional characters that Lee and Ditko created, right?

No one read the books until they became realistic. All that old crap needs to be reinvented for a new generation and made KEWL. I'd rather see Mysterio commit suicide than vex Spider-Man with amazing illusions. We should worship at Kevin Smith's feet for turning those stupid characters into flawed, realistic ones.


Oh.


Wait.


I forgot.


We live on earth.


And on earth, writers who do things like that are bad.

I wasn't defending Kevin Smith with regard to 'Guardian Devil.' I'm just saying that it goes without saying that Mysterio could well be alive, and since there's the potential for him being back again someday, I'm assuming that he is alive. I assume the same for Eddie Brock. No body, no death, and even that test isn't reliable in comic books as far as proving someone's dead.

By the way, I've started reading your essay on Osborn and Gwen Stacy. Interesting stuff.

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

I wasn't defending Kevin Smith with regard to 'Guardian Devil.' I'm just saying that it goes without saying that Mysterio could well be alive, and since there's the potential for him being back again someday, I'm assuming that he is alive. I assume the same for Eddie Brock. No body, no death, and even that test isn't reliable in comic books as far as proving someone's dead.

By the way, I've started reading your essay on Osborn and Gwen Stacy. Interesting stuff.

:wolverine


Thanks. Spread the word.


By the very nature of the character, it's true that Mysterio could fake his death, but from my understanding of all parties' accounts, Smith intended Mysterio to really kill himself.

[Herr Logan]

Thanks. Spread the word.


By the very nature of the character, it's true that Mysterio could fake his death, but from my understanding of all parties' accounts, Smith intended Mysterio to really kill himself.

He also probably "intended" to finish that trashy miniseries on time in the beginning. Oh well.

There's no way to definitively kill someone like Mysterio. They could "Rasputin" his ass (kill him in a variety of ways all at once or consecutively) and there would always be that chance that he switched with another person or replica all the way up to the last moment before he was in true peril. Even when the time comes to run tests to verify it was Quentin Beck, it could be a clone or him, or the medical examiner or other personel handling the evidence could be Mysterio or agent(s) thereof so the evidence would be tampered with, or any method of fooling people one could think of. Hell, you could have Daredevil, Wolverine and every other hyper-senses hero sniff him and it would turn out to be a specially developed spray-on Beck scent. Anything is possible.

Mysterio is basically on par with Doctor Doom when it comes to inventive genius, has a reasonable amount of wealth, and loves to screw with people's heads. I'll never believe he's permanently dead, unless some omnipotent and omniscience being specifically goes gunning for him. Even then, he could be lying.

Kevin Smith's intentions are worthless to me, since he obviously doesn't have enough respect not to mess with other people's characters' histories or otherwise do his job properly.

Sorry, that anger wasn't directed at you, but at all the sleazy, self-serving writers who've screwed up what used to be an amazing and wonderful fictional universe.

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

He also probably "intended" to finish that trashy miniseries on time in the beginning. Oh well.

There's no way to definitively kill someone like Mysterio. They could "Rasputin" his ass (kill him in a variety of ways all at once or consecutively) and there would always be that chance that he switched with another person or replica all the way up to the last moment before he was in true peril. Even when the time comes to run tests to verify it was Quentin Beck, it could be a clone or him, or the medical examiner or other personel handling the evidence could be Mysterio or agent(s) thereof so the evidence would be tampered with, or any method of fooling people one could think of. Hell, you could have Daredevil, Wolverine and every other hyper-senses hero sniff him and it would turn out to be a specially developed spray-on Beck scent. Anything is possible.

Mysterio is basically on par with Doctor Doom when it comes to inventive genius, has a reasonable amount of wealth, and loves to screw with people's heads. I'll never believe he's permanently dead, unless some omnipotent and omniscience being specifically goes gunning for him. Even then, he could be lying.

Kevin Smith's intentions are worthless to me, since he obviously doesn't have enough respect not to mess with other people's characters' histories or otherwise do his job properly.

Sorry, that anger wasn't directed at you, but at all the sleazy, self-serving writers who've screwed up what used to be an amazing and wonderful fictional universe.

:wolverine


I share this pain and rage, friend.

[Dangerous]

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull***** to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

:wolverine


I would not care about a good story per say if it was just ret coning for the sake of fixing stuff.
Mysterio would be good for SP, but I want SP onwards fixed/undone.
The Other, leave Avengers, rebuild Forrest Hills etc etc... it would take a fair while to un do all the damage straz has birthed.

[Herr Logan]

I would not care about a good story per say if it was just ret coning for the sake of fixing stuff.
Mysterio would be good for SP, but I want SP onwards fixed/undone.
The Other, leave Avengers, rebuild Forrest Hills etc etc... it would take a fair while to un do all the damage straz has birthed.

They could go two different ways, from my point of view:

1) Rewind everything to a point several years ago where things didn't suck and just roll forward like the rest of it never happened. I'm fine with that.

2) Spend a few months deliberately and straightforwardly "fixing" everything bad in the Marvel Universe that came out of the recent past (however many years is the right amount) in a huge crossover event called "Cleaning House."

Either way, all that Grant Morrison/Chuck Austen crap with X-Men, JMS bull***** with Spider-Man, Brian Michael Bendis nonsense with the Avengers, etc. would be stricken from the record and those authors should be blackballed from Marvel.

:wolverine

[dan1]

Hey, ya got me thinking.

Peter could wake up in some burial grounds, ala Kraven Epic, and heads back to USA. But not on an Avengers jet, on foot, sea, motorcycle.


He gets home to find Ezekial drugged him, left him for dead, then with some magic mumbo jumbo (can deal with this for a bad guy) Ezekial lifted some essence from Peter.

He also knew he'd lose himself and be more like Peter during the transformation, and with his assistants working around the clock, his objective of getting close to the Avengers' cash flow would be fool proof. Just "be" Peter and don't think about anything else, until your assistants snap you out of it.

His assistants had a bull ***t Morlun go after him so he'd let out the stingers and evolve into an even bigger threat.

So he's been posing as Peter all along and he actually has those Stingers in his arms, he had sex with MJ :eek: , he has been PURPOSELY kissing Iron Mans' ass, 'cause he is the Lex Luthor of the Spider-Man universe, not Osborn.

Hey "It's business kid."

This way, every crap thing that is out of character or not possible (stingers in forearms, hunter mentality) was actually inherent to Ezekial, and Peter was the product of fate and a science radiation experiment gone awry for him and a little Spider all along (duh).

Peter comes back to his Aunts' house blown up, his Aunt sleeping with the Avengers butler, Iron Man thinking he was Peters' boss, and a new Tougher Villian.

All that and he was not even there for the Cr*pfest which was Sins Past.

So he can immediately smell bull**it right away.

He'd say "I slept with Gwen, the Timeline doesn't fit, MJ, you got suckered and I am pissed at you for not telling me this, even though it isn't true, what if it was, you could have left 2 innocent lives to perish, that I could have saved."

But the Twins end up being recent genetic constructs of Gwen and Norman DNA, test tube style and therefore the only Sin left was MJ being suckered and Ezekial too ignorant to know better.

Bam! Obviously a little tweaking would be needed but it fixes Peter's wimpy attitude, Sins Past and the Other in one swoop.

[C. Lee]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?
How about....you are extremely rude and unless you stop it you won't be saved?

One of the first things you did when you got here was to post a link to the Maddox site where he drug Christopher Reeve through the mud.....so I suggest you rethink who among us needs therapy.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Spidey could be saved when Marvel stops raping him...

[Gregatron]

There would be an inherent problem if Peter suddenly woke up and realized that the pasty few years were "all a dream" (Or if he woke up and realized he was still in high school!): What about the rest of the Marvel Universe? Would the clock also been turned back for all the other characters? If not, then how can all of Spider-Man's recent appearances be explained (joining the New Avengers, etc.)?

[dan1]

There would be an inherent problem if Peter suddenly woke up and realized that the pasty few years were "all a dream" (Or if he woke up and realized he was still in high school!): What about the rest of the Marvel Universe? Would the clock also been turned back for all the other characters? If not, then how can all of Spider-Man's recent appearances be explained (joining the New Avengers, etc.)?

Read my previous post. It solves Totem, Sins Past, New Avengers and Other all at once. It uses a little magic mumbo jumbo, but it the cleanest way to fix all of those at once, within the timeline of the other Heroes' lives too.

I like it better than Mysterio or Jackal because Mysterio would take explanations of when and why he did it, where Ezekial is already right at the correct timeline. He was already filling Peter with the TOtem cr*p.

If you use Mysterio than Ezekial doesn't really exist, it would have to be all staged, to clean everything up.

And Jackal would obviously be a monumental Clone Saga II, which would work, but people would be turned off. I think Ezekial would have to be an older version of Peter-Clone to make that work, but what about Totem villians like Morlun, Shathra......It just makes sense to have Ezekial be the Bad Guy of reference and squash this totem crud by Making Ezekial the 'Other.'

[Gregatron]

Read my previous post. It solves Totem, Sins Past, New Avengers and Other all at once. It uses a little magic mumbo jumbo, but it the cleanest way to fix all of those at once, within the timeline of the other Heroes' lives too.

I like it better than Mysterio or Jackal because Mysterio would take explanations of when and why he did it, where Ezekial is already right at the correct timeline. He was already filling Peter with the TOtem cr*p.

If you use Mysterio than Ezekial doesn't really exist, it would have to be all staged, to clean everything up.

And Jackal would obviously be a monumental Clone Saga II, which would work, but people would be turned off. I think Ezekial would have to be an older version of Peter-Clone to make that work, but what about Totem villians like Morlun, Shathra......It just makes sense to have Ezekial be the Bad Guy of reference and squash this totem crud by Making Ezekial the 'Other.'



I am deeply tired of villains coming back from the dead and being revealed as master manipulators who know everything about Peter's life and are 20 steps ahead of him and have been mucking with him for years (Norman Osborn, the Jackal, etc.).

[dan1]

I am deeply tired of villains coming back from the dead and being revealed as master manipulators who know everything about Peter's life and are 20 steps ahead of him and have been mucking with him for years (Norman Osborn, the Jackal, etc.).

Gregatron, did you read my other post on the previous page?

Ezekial faked his death, he didn't die and come back.

It's far-fetched, but it's completely "comic book" reality and is the first time I came up with something that can fix Totem, wimpy Peter, Sins Past, and the Other all at once.

[Gregatron]

Gregatron, did you read my other post on the previous page?

Ezekial faked his death, he didn't die and come back.

It's far-fetched, but it's completely "comic book" reality and is the first time I came up with something that can fix Totem, wimpy Peter, Sins Past, and the Other all at once.


I was referring to Mysterio (or someone else) coming back and being revealed as a mastermind, not your Ezekiel concept.

[Spider-Gamer]

Yes, Spider-Man can be saved. :)

[Dangerous]

Herr Logan: 'Cleaning House' as I see it, is the only way to go.
Spend a year undoing the events that have compromised who SM used to be which began from ASM#508 onwards, and maybe even turn Ezekiels theorys on their head, make him out to be some type of bitter spider powered dude who was just jealous of what PP had managed to accomplish w/ his powers.

[LarryLegend]

Hey, ya got me thinking.

Peter could wake up in some burial grounds, ala Kraven Epic, and heads back to USA. But not on an Avengers jet, on foot, sea, motorcycle.


He gets home to find Ezekial drugged him, left him for dead, then with some magic mumbo jumbo (can deal with this for a bad guy) Ezekial lifted some essence from Peter.

He also knew he'd lose himself and be more like Peter during the transformation, and with his assistants working around the clock, his objective of getting close to the Avengers' cash flow would be fool proof. Just "be" Peter and don't think about anything else, until your assistants snap you out of it.

His assistants had a bull ***t Morlun go after him so he'd let out the stingers and evolve into an even bigger threat.

So he's been posing as Peter all along and he actually has those Stingers in his arms, he had sex with MJ :eek: , he has been PURPOSELY kissing Iron Mans' ass, 'cause he is the Lex Luthor of the Spider-Man universe, not Osborn.

Hey "It's business kid."

This way, every crap thing that is out of character or not possible (stingers in forearms, hunter mentality) was actually inherent to Ezekial, and Peter was the product of fate and a science radiation experiment gone awry for him and a little Spider all along (duh).

Peter comes back to his Aunts' house blown up, his Aunt sleeping with the Avengers butler, Iron Man thinking he was Peters' boss, and a new Tougher Villian.

All that and he was not even there for the Cr*pfest which was Sins Past.

So he can immediately smell bull**it right away.

He'd say "I slept with Gwen, the Timeline doesn't fit, MJ, you got suckered and I am pissed at you for not telling me this, even though it isn't true, what if it was, you could have left 2 innocent lives to perish, that I could have saved."

But the Twins end up being recent genetic constructs of Gwen and Norman DNA, test tube style and therefore the only Sin left was MJ being suckered and Ezekial too ignorant to know better.

Bam! Obviously a little tweaking would be needed but it fixes Peter's wimpy attitude, Sins Past and the Other in one swoop.


:up: :up: :)

[Gregatron]

Spider-Man has been around for so long, what made him great has been chipped away piece by piece. It's been such a gradual erosion that many haven't even noticed, and it may be impossible to fix.

So...

1. Spider-Man will limp along for years to come, and may eventually get cancelled.

Or...

2. Spider-Man will continue to limp along in some virtually unrecognizable form, a pale shadow of what he once was, with very, very modest sales.

Or...

3. The books will be swiftly cancelled in the near future, and the character might be revived some day far in the future (much like Captain America).

Or...

4. Someone of great courage, knowledge, and wisdom will come along and restore the magic and the lustre to this much-abused icon.

[Dangerous]

Hoping for option 4 before hell freezes.

[Herr Logan]

Hey, ya got me thinking.

Peter could wake up in some burial grounds, ala Kraven Epic, and heads back to USA. But not on an Avengers jet, on foot, sea, motorcycle.


He gets home to find Ezekial drugged him, left him for dead, then with some magic mumbo jumbo (can deal with this for a bad guy) Ezekial lifted some essence from Peter.

He also knew he'd lose himself and be more like Peter during the transformation, and with his assistants working around the clock, his objective of getting close to the Avengers' cash flow would be fool proof. Just "be" Peter and don't think about anything else, until your assistants snap you out of it.

His assistants had a bull ***t Morlun go after him so he'd let out the stingers and evolve into an even bigger threat.

So he's been posing as Peter all along and he actually has those Stingers in his arms, he had sex with MJ :eek: , he has been PURPOSELY kissing Iron Mans' ass, 'cause he is the Lex Luthor of the Spider-Man universe, not Osborn.

Hey "It's business kid."

This way, every crap thing that is out of character or not possible (stingers in forearms, hunter mentality) was actually inherent to Ezekial, and Peter was the product of fate and a science radiation experiment gone awry for him and a little Spider all along (duh).

Peter comes back to his Aunts' house blown up, his Aunt sleeping with the Avengers butler, Iron Man thinking he was Peters' boss, and a new Tougher Villian.

All that and he was not even there for the Cr*pfest which was Sins Past.

So he can immediately smell bull**it right away.

He'd say "I slept with Gwen, the Timeline doesn't fit, MJ, you got suckered and I am pissed at you for not telling me this, even though it isn't true, what if it was, you could have left 2 innocent lives to perish, that I could have saved."

But the Twins end up being recent genetic constructs of Gwen and Norman DNA, test tube style and therefore the only Sin left was MJ being suckered and Ezekial too ignorant to know better.

Bam! Obviously a little tweaking would be needed but it fixes Peter's wimpy attitude, Sins Past and the Other in one swoop.

Dan1, I love you like an equal, but I can't approve of this. It validates JMS's bull***** "Totem" crap and still leaves one of Peter's lovers sleeping with the wrong man.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I was referring to Mysterio (or someone else) coming back and being revealed as a mastermind, not your Ezekiel concept.
:(

:wolverine

[LarryLegend]

Actually Logan in Dan's revamp, Gwen never sleep with Norman, they were test tube babies. It does leave the totem crap however.

[Herr Logan]

Actually Logan in Dan's revamp, Gwen never sleep with Norman, they were test tube babies. It does leave the totem crap however.

I know Gwen wouldn't have slept with Norman, but MJ would have slept with someone other than Peter. I don't care if she thought it was Peter or not, it's a completely unneccessary piece of continuity that's better suited to 'Passions' than Spider-Man comics.

And yeah, the Totem crap is still there.

:wolverine

[LarryLegend]

Hadn't thought about the MJ angle. You're right, Dan, I withdraw my endorsement.

[Herr Logan]

I'm not trying to put Dan1 down here. He's one of the good ones. Still, I gotta stick to my guns about Marvel.

:wolverine

[LarryLegend]

I'm not trying to put Dan1 down here. He's one of the good ones. Still, I gotta stick to my guns about Marvel.

:wolverine

Oh I like Dan1. He is a good one and we usually agree. What I meant was while his idea is interesting, I can no longer give it two thumbs up.

[dan1]

Thanks guys, I understand. :)

I give it a mild single thumb up now.

It does validate the totem angle, but takes it off of Peters' shoulders.

But you're right, it totally puts Peter's girl in the bed of someone else.

Ok, so we all agree then that Jackal or Mysterio (of the known enemies of Spider-Man) would be a cleaner fix?

ahhhhh...Maybe the Beyonder is back? What's his status?

Someone as or more powerful?

Let's figure out a way for one of those guys to fix Totem, wimpy Peter, Sins Past and Other.

UGGGH. The bad storylines are building up so fast, it seems harder and harder to clean up the clutter.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I've got a stupid yet simple way to fix this mess... The Watcher... He was observing the multiverse... and got hooked on an alternate reality (Not the 616) where SP Teh Other and all the crap DID happen... Maybe he's sniffed too much Badoonian Glue* Now he's paying attentin to the 616 reality...


*101 Ways to end the Clone saga Reference...

[dan1]

I've got a stupid yet simple way to fix this mess... The Watcher... He was observing the multiverse... and got hooked on an alternate reality (Not the 616) where SP Teh Other and all the crap DID happen... Maybe he's sniffed too much Badoonian Glue* Now he's paying attentin to the 616 reality...


*101 Ways to end the Clone saga Reference...

Hey, this works.

But we are screwed. Lets get serious, the powers that be at that company right now think they're doing a wonderful job and they seem secure in their positions.

Retconning the whole thing by essentially blowing everything off would only be admitting they did wrong. I think we may be living on the moon before that happens.

The Movies' success really did screw up S-M comics irrevocably after all.

You can defintely stick me in the minority group, but I'd rather a Spider-Man Movie NEVER be made and have Spider-Man comics be something to be cared for.

But that's just me.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Unfortunately Spidey's now a movie star... now the old fans... (The comicbook readers... Before Spidey appeared on the big screen) are suffering cuase of an incompetent EIC who is trying to bury spidey... with the help of his egotist cronies...
CONSPIRACY THEROY AHEAD...
What if Joey Q is trying to damage Spidey's flagship character image in order to push DareDevil into the coveted position... who knows...

[dan1]

Unfortunately Spidey's now a movie star... now the old fans... (The comicbook readers... Before Spidey appeared on the big screen) are suffering cuase of an incompetent EIC who is trying to bury spidey... with the help of his egotist cronies...
CONSPIRACY THEROY AHEAD...
What if Joey Q is trying to damage Spidey's flagship character image in order to push DareDevil into the coveted position... who knows...

I AM one for conspiracy theories, but I think moving Ultimate S-M into the forefront is the more likely agenda.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Yeah but the ultiamte theory is kinda old... and I'm a strong believer of that theory as well, but as I said "who knows..." The only thing I want is Spider-man to be Spider-man, not this Man-Spider-God-Lackey-Dumbass thing he is now...

[dan1]

Yeah but the ultiamte theory is kinda old... and I'm a strong believer of that theory as well, but as I said "who knows..." The only thing I want is Spider-man to be Spider-man, not this Man-Spider-God-Lackey-Dumbass thing he is now...


The all new all daring Man-Spider-God-Lackey-Dumbass thing :o

[Flonk]

I didn't say he physically couldn't drive.

I have an even more obscure one then that, Web of Spider-Man #28.

But....what I was saying was he never drove in the city to work as Peter Parker, legally.

Spider-mobile was obviously illegally driving, you can't have a legal Drivers' License with a Mask on.

Now getting a license at the DMV, etc. would have made for Character Building, continuity enriching and would have been a pain for Peter, it would have been a great addtion.

But JMS didn't know or care that Peter never did that, and just assumed that Peter drove to work in a car.

And yet he had a motorcycle for years.


And do you really want to see a storyline about Peter getting his drivers licence? You thought people complained about nothing happening in an issue before! Parts 3-5 would be standing in line and filling out forms. :D

[Flonk]

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

Well, in a recent issue, he thanked Tony for letting him borrow the car. So neener neener on you.

[Flonk]

Either way, all that Grant Morrison/Chuck Austen crap with X-Men, JMS bull***** with Spider-Man, Brian Michael Bendis nonsense with the Avengers, etc. would be stricken from the record and those authors should be blackballed from Marvel.

:wolverine

Wow. Lots of hate for some very good comics.


Except Chuck Austen. I'll give you that one.

[Grim Goblin]

well since PAD insist on bringing back his terrible Hobgoblin 2211, I say he should be used to rectify all the recent crappy arcs in one fell swoop. Cleanly and time-efficiently. "How can he do that?" you may ask. Two magic words: Retcon bombs!

I know it's a cop-out, it's silly but dammit it does the job quickly and we can then move on.

Retcon :bomb: = Happy fun times in Spider-Land again :D

[Donald Thomas]

The Movies' success really did screw up S-M comics irrevocably after all.

You can defintely stick me in the minority group, but I'd rather a Spider-Man Movie NEVER be made and have Spider-Man comics be something to be cared for.

But that's just me.

Aloha,
You can count me in that minority as well.
Spidey rules

[dan1]

Aloha,
You can count me in that minority as well.
Spidey rules

Right on Bro.

The comics are king in my book. The movie is fun for a whirl, but at what cost. It's depressing how the counter culture of the comic book lifestyle has been ruined by the recent editors and writers who have an agenda other than respecting the stories that preceeded them, and the excuse that makes it alright is the Movie Franchises financial success.

I think Spider-Man comics "jumped the shark" when JMS and JoeQ decided continuity was unimportant.

It's easy to say it went sour with Chapter One and the reboot, but fans and Marvel quickly realized the reboot was a mistake. They could have kept continuity intact but the decided to forego it for, god knows why.

The only way I see this being fixed is by a new Brain trust coming along that actually sees what a lot of us see, and fixes it.

[shinlyle]

Well, in a recent issue, he thanked Tony for letting him borrow the car. So neener neener on you.

The fact that you are referring to "recent issues" ruins your credibility even more than using the asanine phrase "neener neener". :rolleyes:

Also, according to JMS, Peter has a car...but then he needs to borrow Tony's car...so you've pretty much disproved your own case. Great job!

*cough*loser*cough*

[Joker]

Aloha,
You can count me in that minority as well.
Spidey rules

Count me in that minority too.

Funny that you guys mention it,since the first Spider-Man movie was made,the quality of the Spidey comics took a nose dive.I'm not blaming that entirely on the movies.But it may have been a factor that caused it.

And if it is,then yeah I'd rather have quality comics than no Spidey movies.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Is Flonk JMS?

I think Spider-Man comics "jumped the shark" when JMS and JoeQ decided continuity was unimportant.
To true... I hope they don't make him do this literally.... AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[Herr Logan]

Wow. Lots of hate for some very good comics.


Except Chuck Austen. I'll give you that one.

Welcome to the Hype, where not everyone happily eats Marvel's *****. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

And yet he had a motorcycle for years.


And do you really want to see a storyline about Peter getting his drivers licence? You thought people complained about nothing happening in an issue before! Parts 3-5 would be standing in line and filling out forms. :D

Yeah, that's how long it would take in the current decripit age of Marvel Comics.

Back in the day,when Peter registered for college, they covered lots of standing in line and filling out forms in less than a page. Page 6 of 'Amazing Spider-Man' #31, to be exact. That was back when huge stories could be told in two or three issues, the "talking heads" actually had something to say, and worked as equal partners with good ol' fashioned superhero action.

Yeah that's right. Thank God for the Essential volumes.

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Welcome to the Hype, where not everyone happily eats Marvel's *****. :up:

:wolverine

LOL!! My thoughts exactly! So far, I have yet to hear Flonk (almost sounds like "Flunky", doesn't it?) talk about anything Marvel has done wrong sicne Joe Q came into power....funny how that works, huh?

[shinlyle]

Yeah, that's how long it would take in the current decripit age of Marvel Comics.

Back in the day,when Peter registered for college, they covered lots of standing in line and filling out forms in less than a page. Page 6 of 'Amazing Spider-Man' #31, to be exact. That was back when huge stories could be told in two or three issues, the "talking heads" actually had something to say, and worked as equal partners with good ol' fashioned superhero action.

Yeah that's right. Thanks God for the Essential volumes.

:wolverine

You're on fire today, man! :up:

[dan1]

Yeah, that's how long it would take in the current decripit age of Marvel Comics.

Back in the day,when Peter registered for college, they covered lots of standing in line and filling out forms in less than a page. Page 6 of 'Amazing Spider-Man' #31, to be exact. That was back when huge stories could be told in two or three issues, the "talking heads" actually had something to say, and worked as equal partners with good ol' fashioned superhero action.

Yeah that's right. Thanks God for the Essential volumes.

:wolverine

Exactly the point. Showing Peter at the DMV would have taken one page, if they wanted it to take one page.

And the other point is JMS didn't know Peter didn't drive to work, and that's the reason for the misrepresentation in the first place.

JMS is a tool.

[Herr Logan]

Dammit, Shin, ya done gone an' made me blush. :O

Thanks, man. :D :up:

Post o' the year, *****es. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7688264&postcount=52)

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Exactly the point. Showing Peter at the DMV would have taken one page, if they wanted it to take one page.

And the other point is JMS didn't know Peter didn't drive to work, and that's the reason for the misrepresentation in the first place.

JMS is a tool.

See, that's the thing. If he knew something we didn't, I'd be fine with it. If he called us out and pointed to a story in some oft-overlooked annual from way back, then I'd be fine.

However, he's proven that continuity is his weakest point. He writes things as he percieves them to be, and he rewrites the past as he feels it should have been.

He is a tool.

[Herr Logan]

Exactly the point. Showing Peter at the DMV would have taken one page, if they wanted it to take one page.

And the other point is JMS didn't know Peter didn't drive to work, and that's the reason for the misrepresentation in the first place.

JMS is a tool.

Understand, I'm not lobbying for even a page that shows Peter at the DMV. I think it would be stupid if he didn't already have his license, even if he didn't have a car. I would think many, if not most New Yorkers would at least have a license, should they ever need to drive a car, or rent one on trips (like Peter did in the Diane Duane novel series).

Still, you're probably right about JMS not knowing, or at least not caring, that Peter doesn't drive to work. Hell, I'm pissed off that they had Peter working at the high school in the first place. JMS was obviously watching too much 'Boston Public' and decided to showcase-- yet again-- his profound lack of originality with regard to Spider-Man. That Totem arc? Nothing at all original there in the slightest. Yeah, I heard stories about Anansi, too. You know why I never thought of relating that concept to Spider-Man? Because I hate spiders! If I didn't hate spiders and was given the job of writing Spider-Man in an era when many fans no longer care what gets put in those comics, and I had no original ideas and didn't feel like writing a traditional Spider-Man story that fits the character... hell, I'd probably deconstruct his origins and make up some mystical bull***** where I can dish out some of the old "Creepy Insider Taunts Confused Newcomer with Cryptic Hints" nonsense, just like JMS did!

Anyone read 'Midnight Nation'? JMS just loves him some "Creepy Insider Taunts Confused Newcomer with Cryptic Hints" nonsense. Thank God I didn't pay for it. I did read the little "note about the author," though, and it turns out JMS lived on the streets with junkies and vagabonds for a small chunk of his life, on purpose. That may explain why he had the gall to accuse true Spider-Man fans of being overly judgmental of his sluttified version of Gwen Stacy in 'Sins Past.' He comes off as (I'm not saying for a fact that he is, mind you) extremely "open-minded" and doesn't judge people for most things. What he fails to realize is that while lots of people get put in bad situations through no fault of their own, a hell of a lot of people get tossed to the curb because they didn't maintain good standards for their own behavior, or they were "accepting" of someone else who screwed them over. JMS is the last person who should be writing Spider-Man, since he doesn't even think his sluttified version of Gwen is actually responsible for anything truly wrong. Responsibility. Know the ****ing meaning of that word before you dare put pen to paper in a book that always starts off with a blurb about "power and responsibility."

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Dammit, Shin, ya done gone an' made me blush. :O

Thanks, man. :D :up:

Post o' the year, *****es. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7688264&postcount=52)

:wolverine

Sorry, man! I didn't mean to flatter yo utoo much!

As fr the "Post of the Year".... Man...I'm pretty sure I scarred that little guy for life. He rarely posts here anymore, and when he does, he usually runs off whenever I show up. Not that it doesn't make it a little more pleasant here, being short one troll...

[Herr Logan]

Sorry, man! I didn't mean to flatter yo utoo much!

As fr the "Post of the Year".... Man...I'm pretty sure I scarred that little guy for life. He rarely posts here anymore, and when he does, he usually runs off whenever I show up. Not that it doesn't make it a little more pleasant here, being short one troll...

I think I've seen him around, in different forums. But he probably learned something that day.
It's a tough job, putting naive, insolent apologists in their place, but it must be done. You did what you had to, and I thank you for it. :up:

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Understand, I'm not lobbying for even a page that shows Peter at the DMV. I think it would be stupid if he didn't already have his license, even if he didn't have a car. I would think many, if not most New Yorkers would at least have a license, should they ever need to drive a car, or rent one on trips (like Peter did in the Diane Duane novel series).

Still, you're probably right about JMS not knowing, or at least not caring, that Peter doesn't drive to work. Hell, I'm pissed off that they had Peter working at the high school in the first place. JMS was obviously watching too much 'Boston Public' and decided to showcase-- yet again-- his profound lack of originality with regard to Spider-Man. That Totem arc? Nothing at all original there in the slightest. Yeah, I heard stories about Anansi, too. You know why I never thought of relating that concept to Spider-Man? Because I hate spiders! If I didn't hate spiders and was given the job of writing Spider-Man in an era when many fans no longer care what gets put in those comics, and I had no original ideas and didn't feel like writing a traditional Spider-Man story that fits the character... hell, I'd probably deconstruct his origins and make up some mystical bull***** where I can dish out some of the old "Creepy Insider Taunts Confused Newcomer with Cryptic Hints" nonsense, just like JMS did!

Anyone read 'Midnight Nation'? JMS just loves him some "Creepy Insider Taunts Confused Newcomer with Cryptic Hints" nonsense. Thank God I didn't pay for it. I did read the little "note about the author," though, and it turns out JMS lived on the streets with junkies and vagabonds for a small chunk of his life, on purpose. That may explain why he had the gall to accuse true Spider-Man fans of being overly judgmental of his sluttified version of Gwen Stacy in 'Sins Past.' He comes off as (I'm not saying for a fact that he is, mind you) extremely "open-minded" and doesn't judge people for most things. What he fails to realize is that while lots of people get put in bad situations through no fault of their own, a hell of a lot of people get tossed to the curb because they didn't maintain good standards for their own behavior, or they were "accepting" of someone else who screwed them over. JMS is the last person who should be writing Spider-Man, since he doesn't even think his sluttified version of Gwen is actually responsible for anything truly wrong. Responsibility. Know the ****ing meaning of that word before you dare put pen to paper in a book that always starts off with a blurb about "power and responsibility."

:wolverine

Wow...I'm just gonna sit back and read your posts today, man! Well said! :up:

[LarryLegend]

Excellent post Logan.

First step to saving Spider-man = firing JMS and Joey Q.

[Herr Logan]

Wow...I'm just gonna sit back and read your posts today, man! Well said! :up:
Oh sure, leave me to do the heavy lifting. :p

Thanks, bub. :up:

Seriously, I read 'Midnight Nation' because I actually liked JMS' work on Spider-Man to some degree, even when he was messing around with that Totem nonsense. I've always hated that cryptic nonsense, and after watching several years of Buffy (which hardly paid off toward the end, if any of you have seen the latter two horrible seasons), I had my fill of "Chosen Ones" and "destinies" and "mythic origins." If I was reading Thor, I sure as hell wouldn't complain about any of that. Why, that would be sort of like saying, "I love Spider-Man, but I never liked the idea of mechanical web-shooters, so I'm glad the comics now match the movie," which is heresy, pure and simple, but I'm talking about Spider-Man. He's an urban vigilante, and while the White Tiger can pull of both the mystical angle and the street-level ass-kicking, Spider-Man wasn't meant for that. If he was, don't you think Steve Ditko, the creator of Doctor freakin' Strange, would have plotted something to that effect during his run?? .
He's a science hero, which really means he gained his power through pseudo-scientific means. Yes, magic and science aren't always mutually exclusive, but by all that is crunchy and lightly salted, this is not a character for whom that connection should be explored. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, the whole thing was a vehicle through which JMS could plug Dr. Strange's new book several times, which is basically what he did.

Anyway, I did like JMS a little early in his run, because the dialogue was funny and Spider-Man was shown interacting with people on the street again, eating bagels and other stuff that made him seem back in his element. Nice fake-out, Straczinsky! I never saw any of that other bull***** coming, and I'm a pessimist, so bra-****ing-vo!
But my nasty little opinions don't count, because I judged Gwen a slut (which she very much is, the way that hack wrote her), which means I'm buying into the whole "Madonna/Whore" complex. Right, because I, being the opinionated and universally judgmental person that I am (that's not sarcasm folks, that's my admitting the obvious and telling you for future reference that it's not an insult when you call me that, it just means you're awake and can tap the right keys!), wouldn't have said essentially the same thing about Peter if he had cheated on her, or MJ, or anyone else, right? Maybe I'd have used the word "slut," maybe I'd just say he was a scumbag with the same meaning behind it. I sure as hell said that about Foggy Nelson when he cheated on Liz Osborn in the Daredevil story 'Guardian Devil!" I qualified it as ambiguous, however, since there were drugs involved. If Daredevil can be drugged into flying into a rage whenever someone makes positive remarks about a particular baby, then Foggy can be drugged into throwing a hump to a smokin' hot client. In general, without such complications, I don't give free passes for infidelity. Hell, I was even pissed off at Wolverine when I realized he was still engaged to Mariko when he slept with anyone from crimelord Tyger Tiger to super-terrorist Mystique. Still not sure how to feel about that, because Mariko's culture and honor system aren't mine, so maybe she'd have been okay with it. Another complication. But there was nothing complicated at all about "Gwen" and Norman Osborn. "Magnetism" isn't drugs, and Peter isn't a Japanese matriarch who lives according to Bushido.

Point is, JMS's "What If" version of Gwendolyne Stacy was a filthy, despicable slut for cheating on Peter with his best friend's middle-aged father, and nothing will ever change that. What can be changed is the inclusion of that bastardized version to canon. I still don't accept it. Gwen wasn't like that and never will be (unless it's that clone that's still out there), because she's dead and should have stayed in her grave undisturbed. There's another big chunk o' proof that JMS has no originality reserved for Spider-Man. Instead of bringing in an old villain and giving him a new scheme (which isn't necessarily a gloriously original idea-- depending on the new scheme-- but at least it's appropriate for a Spider-Man story), he dug up a corpse and branded her an unfaithful whore, even if he can't understand what he did. Okay, he gave us new villains. New, one-shot villains that are either magic-based or not coming back, or do come back and are poor excuses for "arch-enemies." Morlun keeps hitting Spider-Man "harder than he's ever been hit before." Okay, well, to hell with characters like the Hulk who are supposed to be the strongest there is and have decades of character development behind them. We'll just bring in a slightly prettier version of Morbius, jack him up to the power level of a lovechild between Hulk and Thor, and have him do nothing remotely clever or exceptional. Just beat on Peter and have him eat his eyeball. You know, just like that cannibal Mauvaise (that's French for "bad," kids) did to Wolverine a few years ago. But JMS probably didn't know that. He probably never read a Wolverine comic in his life, judging from how he acts in the Avengers. Both Bendis and JMS can't seem to get that right. Or anything else at Marvel, for that matter.

Losing steam. Rant over. For now...

Here's a super-long essay with dozens of quotes (I'm not even a quarter of the way through yet, but I'm enjoying the recap and annotations) on the history or Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, written by our friend Gregatron, for the purpose of formally proving that 'Sins Past' never could have happened. We who know our Spider-Man comics don't need proof, of course,
but it's nice to see it laid out. Here it it:
GREAT POWER, GREATER IRRESPONSIBILITY (http://redeeminggwendy.blogspot.com/)


:wolverine

[Flonk]

The fact that you are referring to "recent issues" ruins your credibility even more than using the asanine phrase "neener neener". :rolleyes:

Also, according to JMS, Peter has a car...but then he needs to borrow Tony's car...so you've pretty much disproved your own case. Great job!



I don't know the issue off the top of my head. I think it was the last issue of ASM. I'll find it for you later. And According to JMS, Peter borrowed Tony's car, and that's the car that you saw Peter driving before. Peter has no car, thus the need to borrow one.

[Herr Logan]

Excellent post Logan.

First step to saving Spider-man = firing JMS and Joey Q.

Thank you kindly. :)

:wolverine

[Flonk]

Yeah, that's how long it would take in the current decripit age of Marvel Comics.

Back in the day,when Peter registered for college, they covered lots of standing in line and filling out forms in less than a page. Page 6 of 'Amazing Spider-Man' #31, to be exact. That was back when huge stories could be told in two or three issues, the "talking heads" actually had something to say, and worked as equal partners with good ol' fashioned superhero action.

Yeah that's right. Thank God for the Essential volumes.

:wolverine

See, it was a joke. because lines at the DMV are so long. I'm like a hack stand up comedian. White guys are like this, but black guys are like this.

[Flonk]

LOL!! My thoughts exactly! So far, I have yet to hear Flonk (almost sounds like "Flunky", doesn't it?) talk about anything Marvel has done wrong sicne Joe Q came into power....funny how that works, huh?

Sorry if I like comics. My fault I guess. I have to get to work, but I'll come back later with a whole list of bad Marvel ideas. (Top of that list, getting rid of MAX)

[Herr Logan]

See, it was a joke. because lines at the DMV are so long. I'm like a hack stand up comedian. White guys are like this, but black guys are like this.

For that, you may sit at our table at lunchtime.

They're still gonna rip on you for your flawed notions of quality, and I'll do worse, but you've got spirit. That annoys me, but in a good way.

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

I don't know the issue off the top of my head. I think it was the last issue of ASM. I'll find it for you later. And According to JMS, Peter borrowed Tony's car, and that's the car that you saw Peter driving before. Peter has no car, thus the need to borrow one.

So...I guess in part one of "Skin Deep", when Peter is going into all kinds of detail about his car and the mess it is, that doesn't count? Then, in the most recent issue of Amazing, suddenly, JMS says that Peter doesn't have a car? Dammit....JMS needs to make up his mind and quit making up history.

[shinlyle]

Sorry if I like comics. My fault I guess. I have to get to work, but I'll come back later with a whole list of bad Marvel ideas. (Top of that list, getting rid of MAX)

We finally agree on something!
MAX is by far the most under-utilized part of Marvel Comics. It was started as a way to bring in some of the Vertigo crowd, and it's ended up being just Punisher. Alias turned to Pulse....Hood was cancelled (or it didn't get a second mini, whatever), Fury was just a mini, and then Supreme Power (JMS's last crown jewel) went to Marvel Knights....just in time for the Marvel Knights line to end as well.

I don't know if Marvel just doesn't see the potential there, or it people aren't submitting enough adult-themed stories, or what. All I know is this: MAX was an idea that's time had come, and Marvel has totally squandered it.

If they move Punisher back to mainstream Marvel U, I'll drop Marvel altogether. That's one of the few consistently great Marvel books (the others being Runaways, Young Avengers, Ultimates 2, Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, Daredevil, and Astonishing X-Men, as far as I'm concerned), and the thought of them dulling it down just depresses and angers me.

[LarryLegend]

So...I guess in part one of "Skin Deep", when Peter is going into all kinds of detail about his car and the mess it is, that doesn't count? Then, in the most recent issue of Amazing, suddenly, JMS says that Peter doesn't have a car? Dammit....JMS needs to make up his mind and quit making up history.

Look so he makes some continuity errors, are you going to let override brilliant stories? Oh wait, he doesn't do that either. :D

[Norman Osborn]

If they move Punisher back to mainstream Marvel U, I'll drop Marvel altogether. That's one of the few consistently great Marvel books (the others being Runaways, Young Avengers, Ultimates 2, Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, Daredevil, and Astonishing X-Men, as far as I'm concerned), and the thought of them dulling it down just depresses and angers me.

I had assumed War Journals as well as Punisher Max would continue.....and might I add to the list of consistently great Marvel Books, Captain America :)

[shinlyle]

I had assumed War Journals as well as Punisher Max would continue.....and might I add to the list of consistently great Marvel Books, Captain America :)

Cap is pretty good, from what I've read of it since Brubaker took over.

As for War Journals, I hope it'll be great, but the thought of having more than one Punisher title scares me. The overexposure of The Punisher is what led to the books sucking so badly. I'd rather have one great book than 2 so-so books. Still, I'll definitely give it a shot.

[dan1]

So...I guess in part one of "Skin Deep", when Peter is going into all kinds of detail about his car and the mess it is, that doesn't count? Then, in the most recent issue of Amazing, suddenly, JMS says that Peter doesn't have a car? Dammit....JMS needs to make up his mind and quit making up history.

Right. Flonk didn't know what scene we were talking about then. He gave JMS a pass that he wouldn't have that short a memory on something he actually added to the history.

But sorry Flonk, JMS can't even get his own short term continuity right.


BTW, great posts by Herr Logan as usual. Looks like he is getting fired up again. :)

[Herr Logan]

Right. Flonk didn't know what scene we were talking about then. He gave JMS a pass that he wouldn't have that short a memory on something he actually added to the history.

But sorry Flonk, JMS can't even get his own short term continuity right.


BTW, great posts by Herr Logan as usual. Looks like he is getting fired up again. :)

Thanks, bub. :up:

Fired up? Oh, I do believe that anyone who brings a weak case to this thread is gonna get burned.

I haven't followed stuff as closely in recent months with the crappy comics, so I'll need you guys as back-up for facts, though.

:wolverine

[FreeRadical]

If only Superboy Prime existed in the Marvel Universe, he could Super Retcon Punch the past few years of Spidey :( .

[C. Lee]

A word of note to everyone.....the "REPORT BAD POST" button is to be used for reporting actual offensive or bad posts....NOT that someone has disagreed with your opinion.

[MaxCarnage]

A word of note to everyone.....the "REPORT BAD POST" button is to be used for reporting actual offensive or bad posts....NOT that someone has disagreed with your opinion.

lmao

Too funny. And sad.

[Cullen]

Right. Flonk didn't know what scene we were talking about then. He gave JMS a pass that he wouldn't have that short a memory on something he actually added to the history.

But sorry Flonk, JMS can't even get his own short term continuity right.


BTW, great posts by Herr Logan as usual. Looks like he is getting fired up again. :)Fired up? Does he ever cools off? :p:)

[Herr Logan]

Fired up? Does he ever cools off? :p:)

Hey, I does cools off somestime! :(

But bad spelling and/or bad grammar fires me right back up again.

:wolverine

[C. Lee]

BTW, great posts by Herr Logan as usual. Looks like he is getting fired up again. :)
Do you know what burns Herr Logan's ass?

A flame about 3 feet high.

[Herr Logan]

Do you know what burns Herr Logan's ass?

A flame about 3 feet high.

You swore you wouldn't tell!! :mad:

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Gah! My friend will never be safe again! Now all the trolls will be walking around with portable flamethrowers!! Dammit! :eek:

not enough sleep...:o

[Gregatron]

Oh sure, leave me to do the heavy lifting. :p

Thanks, bub. :up:

Seriously, I read 'Midnight Nation' because I actually liked JMS' work on Spider-Man to some degree, even when he was messing around with that Totem nonsense. I've always hated that cryptic nonsense, and after watching several years of Buffy (which hardly paid off toward the end, if any of you have seen the latter two horrible seasons), I had my fill of "Chosen Ones" and "destinies" and "mythic origins." If I was reading Thor, I sure as hell wouldn't complain about any of that. Why, that would be sort of like saying, "I love Spider-Man, but I never liked the idea of mechanical web-shooters, so I'm glad the comics now match the movie," which is heresy, pure and simple, but I'm talking about Spider-Man. He's an urban vigilante, and while the White Tiger can pull of both the mystical angle and the street-level ass-kicking, Spider-Man wasn't meant for that. If he was, don't you think Steve Ditko, the creator of Doctor freakin' Strange, would have plotted something to that effect during his run?? .
He's a science hero, which really means he gained his power through pseudo-scientific means. Yes, magic and science aren't always mutually exclusive, but by all that is crunchy and lightly salted, this is not a character for whom that connection should be explored. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, the whole thing was a vehicle through which JMS could plug Dr. Strange's new book several times, which is basically what he did.

Anyway, I did like JMS a little early in his run, because the dialogue was funny and Spider-Man was shown interacting with people on the street again, eating bagels and other stuff that made him seem back in his element. Nice fake-out, Straczinsky! I never saw any of that other bull***** coming, and I'm a pessimist, so bra-****ing-vo!
But my nasty little opinions don't count, because I judged Gwen a slut (which she very much is, the way that hack wrote her), which means I'm buying into the whole "Madonna/Whore" complex. Right, because I, being the opinionated and universally judgmental person that I am (that's not sarcasm folks, that's my admitting the obvious and telling you for future reference that it's not an insult when you call me that, it just means you're awake and can tap the right keys!), wouldn't have said essentially the same thing about Peter if he had cheated on her, or MJ, or anyone else, right? Maybe I'd have used the word "slut," maybe I'd just say he was a scumbag with the same meaning behind it. I sure as hell said that about Foggy Nelson when he cheated on Liz Osborn in the Daredevil story 'Guardian Devil!" I qualified it as ambiguous, however, since there were drugs involved. If Daredevil can be drugged into flying into a rage whenever someone makes positive remarks about a particular baby, then Foggy can be drugged into throwing a hump to a smokin' hot client. In general, without such complications, I don't give free passes for infidelity. Hell, I was even pissed off at Wolverine when I realized he was still engaged to Mariko when he slept with anyone from crimelord Tyger Tiger to super-terrorist Mystique. Still not sure how to feel about that, because Mariko's culture and honor system aren't mine, so maybe she'd have been okay with it. Another complication. But there was nothing complicated at all about "Gwen" and Norman Osborn. "Magnetism" isn't drugs, and Peter isn't a Japanese matriarch who lives according to Bushido.

Point is, JMS's "What If" version of Gwendolyne Stacy was a filthy, despicable slut for cheating on Peter with his best friend's middle-aged father, and nothing will ever change that. What can be changed is the inclusion of that bastardized version to canon. I still don't accept it. Gwen wasn't like that and never will be (unless it's that clone that's still out there), because she's dead and should have stayed in her grave undisturbed. There's another big chunk o' proof that JMS has no originality reserved for Spider-Man. Instead of bringing in an old villain and giving him a new scheme (which isn't necessarily a gloriously original idea-- depending on the new scheme-- but at least it's appropriate for a Spider-Man story), he dug up a corpse and branded her an unfaithful whore, even if he can't understand what he did. Okay, he gave us new villains. New, one-shot villains that are either magic-based or not coming back, or do come back and are poor excuses for "arch-enemies." Morlun keeps hitting Spider-Man "harder than he's ever been hit before." Okay, well, to hell with characters like the Hulk who are supposed to be the strongest there is and have decades of character development behind them. We'll just bring in a slightly prettier version of Morbius, jack him up to the power level of a lovechild between Hulk and Thor, and have him do nothing remotely clever or exceptional. Just beat on Peter and have him eat his eyeball. You know, just like that cannibal Mauvaise (that's French for "bad," kids) did to Wolverine a few years ago. But JMS probably didn't know that. He probably never read a Wolverine comic in his life, judging from how he acts in the Avengers. Both Bendis and JMS can't seem to get that right. Or anything else at Marvel, for that matter.

Losing steam. Rant over. For now...

Here's a super-long essay with dozens of quotes (I'm not even a quarter of the way through yet, but I'm enjoying the recap and annotations) on the history or Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, written by our friend Gregatron, for the purpose of formally proving that 'Sins Past' never could have happened. We who know our Spider-Man comics don't need proof, of course,
but it's nice to see it laid out. Here it it:
GREAT POWER, GREATER IRRESPONSIBILITY (http://redeeminggwendy.blogspot.com/)

:wolverine

Thanks for the plug, mein Herr!

[Herr Logan]

Thanks for the plug, mein Herr!

No problem, Greg. It's the least I could do for someone who spent so much time (and probably money as well) on battling the insidious forces of ignorance, revisionism and herd-mentality among so-called Spider-Man fans. :up:

:wolverine

[D-day]

Id just love to ring up Marvel and ask them what the hell they are doing to Spidey. I mean "If it aint broke then dont fix it" He's had his powers messed with twice now over the last few years and now they are going to "out" his identity in civil war. Why cant they just leave good things alone instead of spoiling them beyond repair?! :mad:

:unishr:

[Herr Logan]

Id just love to ring up Marvel and ask them what the hell they are doing to Spidey. I mean "If it aint broke then dont fix it" He's had his powers messed with twice now over the last few years and now they are going to "out" his identity in civil war. Why cant they just leave good things alone instead of spoiling them beyond repair?! :mad:

:unishr:

A belated "Welcome to the Hype" to you. :up:

:wolverine

[SpideyInATree]

Also, for those who use the "Peter drove a motorcycle" argument, you need a different liscense to drive a motorcycle than to drive a passenger vehicle. One liscense doesn't mean you automatically get the other.

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

Of course it's a different license. He'd have to have a Class M license for Motorcycle. But he still has a license and he could easily go get it transfered to a different class of a license.

Because I'm sure that the first thing on writers minds are, "Hey, lets do a storyline where Peter gets his drivers license!". I mean...a guy living in New York City, who can websling, using a car? :confused: Come on! Insanity! So, maybe one day we'll get that story of Peter getting his drivers license changed from motorcycle...to a car.

And as for having no money and affording a car. You must not know many poor people. They have cars...but really, really, really crappy cars...and usually no insurance and hope the cops don't see the expired tags.

[SpideyInATree]

The fact that you are referring to "recent issues" ruins your credibility even more than using the asanine phrase "neener neener". :rolleyes:

Also, according to JMS, Peter has a car...but then he needs to borrow Tony's car...so you've pretty much disproved your own case. Great job!

*cough*loser*cough*

Wow. And you had the nerve to call me condescending and arrogant.

[shinlyle]

Wow. And you had the nerve to call me condescending and arrogant.

Yes. Yes I did. :D

I just forgot to say , "Yet nowhere near as rightfully condescending or arrogant as I".

[Herr Logan]

Yes. Yes I did. :D

I just forgot to say , "Yet nowhere near as rightfully condescending or arrogant as I".

Being arrogant is just fine and dandy, as long as you're right. :) :up:

:wolverine

[Themanofbat]

Being arrogant is just fine and dandy, as long as you're right. :) :up:

:wolverine


hahahahahahahahahahahahah.... brilliant.... :confused:...hahahahahahahahaha

How's it going Herry? It's been a while. :)

I hope that all is well with you, your sister, and your whole family.

:)

[Themanofbat]

And for the record Herry, just because you and I have had differences of opinion in the past doesn't necessarily mean that I like or approve of what Marvel's been doing with my favorite character these last few years.

We have not seen eye to eye on a few issues, but the one thing we have in common (other than a love for Spidey & your sister ;) ) is that we really aren't approving of the current state of the books. Myself though, being 38 1/2 years of age, is merely waiting for better times to come, because I have enough problems in life than to give myself ulcers over what a few idiots think they can and cannot do to my favorite wall-crawler... hence, my rather laid-back approach to all this nonsense. Because if 31 years of reading comics has taught me anything, it's that there's always something better just around the corner.

I'm glad to see that you've mellowed a bit without losing your passion over the current sad state of affairs. It's one thing to be fiesty and passionate, but to show disrespect towards others is never nice... something I thought you were quick to do in the past.

I hope to see more of the "new" you in the future.

Cheers... :)

[The Venomator]

Id just love to ring up Marvel and ask them what the hell they are doing to Spidey. I mean "If it aint broke then dont fix it" He's had his powers messed with twice now over the last few years and now they are going to "out" his identity in civil war. Why cant they just leave good things alone instead of spoiling them beyond repair?! :mad:

:unishr:

I agree, spidey is a marvel legend and he's been messed with too many times over the last couple of years. As have some of the villains in my estimations

[Herr Logan]

hahahahahahahahahahahahah.... brilliant.... :confused:...hahahahahahahahaha

How's it going Herry? It's been a while. :)

I hope that all is well with you, your sister, and your whole family.

:)
And for the record Herry, just because you and I have had differences of opinion in the past doesn't necessarily mean that I like or approve of what Marvel's been doing with my favorite character these last few years.

We have not seen eye to eye on a few issues, but the one thing we have in common (other than a love for Spidey & your sister ;) ) is that we really aren't approving of the current state of the books. Myself though, being 38 1/2 years of age, is merely waiting for better times to come, because I have enough problems in life than to give myself ulcers over what a few idiots think they can and cannot do to my favorite wall-crawler... hence, my rather laid-back approach to all this nonsense. Because if 31 years of reading comics has taught me anything, it's that there's always something better just around the corner.

I'm glad to see that you've mellowed a bit without losing your passion over the current sad state of affairs. It's one thing to be fiesty and passionate, but to show disrespect towards others is never nice... something I thought you were quick to do in the past.

I hope to see more of the "new" you in the future.

Cheers... :)

I show disrespect to those I see as deserving it. That hasn't changed as a rule; I just don't spend as much time looking for trouble as I used to.

I'd meet you half-way with this thorny-looking olive branch you're holding out, but your own disrespectful behavior in the past has been directed not only toward me but people I care about, and I'm not talking about my family or anyone you haven't heard of. It's one thing to point out when an abrasive and arrogant (see above for rules of conduct regarding arrogance) personality throws hostility around and argue that person on the same playing field (i.e. arguing in public forums), but it's quite another to harrass that person, wish them ill will and make inappropriate comments concerning traits that are irrelevent to your argument. You know who I'm talking about, and some part of you knows I'm right to hold you (as well as all other guilty parties) in contempt for this. I regret that there's no real way to tell whether you've actually changed or not, since I have no reason to believe you stopped that behavior of your own volition. A grudge is like a security blanket, and I keep my blankie with me until someone proves there's no reason for it.

Next time you want to hand me a backhanded compliment, try to refrain from reminding me how petty and dishonorable you can be when you're in a mood to disparage someone (i.e. the family remarks). If I had your capacity for that kind of behavior, I'd likely be making inappropriate comments about your kids, but neither the old Herr Logan nor the "new" Herr Logan has ever treated anyone on the Hype like that. Take a good look at yourself before accusing me or anyone else of being "disrespectful."

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

Of course it's a different license. He'd have to have a Class M license for Motorcycle. But he still has a license and he could easily go get it transfered to a different class of a license.

Because I'm sure that the first thing on writers minds are, "Hey, lets do a storyline where Peter gets his drivers license!". I mean...a guy living in New York City, who can websling, using a car? :confused: Come on! Insanity! So, maybe one day we'll get that story of Peter getting his drivers license changed from motorcycle...to a car.

And as for having no money and affording a car. You must not know many poor people. They have cars...but really, really, really crappy cars...and usually no insurance and hope the cops don't see the expired tags.


Didn't the Spider-Moblie stories establish that he didn't have a driver's license?

[Themanofbat]

I show disrespect to those I see as deserving it. That hasn't changed as a rule; I just don't spend as much time looking for trouble as I used to.

I'd meet you half-way with this thorny-looking olive branch you're holding out, but your own disrespectful behavior in the past has been directed not only toward me but people I care about, and I'm not talking about my family or anyone you haven't heard of. It's one thing to point out when an abrasive and arrogant (see above for rules of conduct regarding arrogance) personality throws hostility around and argue that person on the same playing field (i.e. arguing in public forums), but it's quite another to harrass that person, wish them ill will and make inappropriate comments concerning traits that are irrelevent to your argument. You know who I'm talking about, and some part of you knows I'm right to hold you (as well as all other guilty parties) in contempt for this. I regret that there's no real way to tell whether you've actually changed or not, since I have no reason to believe you stopped that behavior of your own volition. A grudge is like a security blanket, and I keep my blankie with me until someone proves there's no reason for it.

Next time you want to hand me a backhanded compliment, try to refrain from reminding me how petty and dishonorable you can be when you're in a mood to disparage someone (i.e. the family remarks). If I had your capacity for that kind of behavior, I'd likely be making inappropriate comments about your kids, but neither the old Herr Logan nor the "new" Herr Logan has ever treated anyone on the Hype like that. Take a good look at yourself before accusing me or anyone else of being "disrespectful."

:wolverine

A good look in the mirror is always one of the most difficult things a person can do (right up there with a person taking their OWN advice), and I've never pretended to be something that I'm not.

While I have been labelled by many here at this board as being very non-judhemental as well as friendly to others, I'd be the first to admit that I can be downright nasrty and/or disrespectful... specifically when I see someone being that way to either myself and/or to others. Does that justify my behavior? Of course not... do unto others as you want to be done unto you :confused: (you know what I mean.. :D ) But as I said above, I've never pretended to be some type of angel. If I've "attacked" you in the past, there's no doubt that I felt obligated to throw jabs in your direction. That doesn't mean it was right of me, and I'm willing to try and be "nice" and perhaps we can have a decent chat about Spidey, Marvel, or anything else for that matter. I believe that we can have discussion, and even debate, or heck, even argue about something, and at least we can make attempts to be more civil towards one another.

Life's too short to be going off on petty rants towards other posters on meassage boards. Though I'll admit it can be fun to "push someone's buttons" or to "get their goats" (which I know I did to you), but since you've come back a little less "hot-headed", I realized that maybe I was unfair to you and maybe we can give each other "second chances".

Sound cool to you?

:)

[Themanofbat]

Didn't the Spider-Moblie stories establish that he didn't have a driver's license?

Heck, I'll go one better....

In Marvel Team-Up #88, released 3 years and 3 months after the last appearance of the Spider-Mobile (in ASM #160), Spidey says to the Invisible Woman that he doesn't know how to drive.

But that issue came out in 1979, so I can't expect Marvel editors to have THAT kind of long-term memory...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Herr Logan]

A good look in the mirror is always one of the most difficult things a person can do (right up there with a person taking their OWN advice), and I've never pretended to be something that I'm not.

While I have been labelled by many here at this board as being very non-judhemental as well as friendly to others, I'd be the first to admit that I can be downright nasrty and/or disrespectful... specifically when I see someone being that way to either myself and/or to others. Does that justify my behavior? Of course not... do unto others as you want to be done unto you :confused: (you know what I mean.. :D ) But as I said above, I've never pretended to be some type of angel. If I've "attacked" you in the past, there's no doubt that I felt obligated to throw jabs in your direction. That doesn't mean it was right of me, and I'm willing to try and be "nice" and perhaps we can have a decent chat about Spidey, Marvel, or anything else for that matter. I believe that we can have discussion, and even debate, or heck, even argue about something, and at least we can make attempts to be more civil towards one another.

Life's too short to be going off on petty rants towards other posters on meassage boards. Though I'll admit it can be fun to "push someone's buttons" or to "get their goats" (which I know I did to you), but since you've come back a little less "hot-headed", I realized that maybe I was unfair to you and maybe we can give each other "second chances".

Sound cool to you?

:)

Sounds cool to me, provided I don't see any further evidence of you participating in derision toward that other Hype member to which I referred.

A tenuous peace begins.

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

Heck, I'll go one better....

In Marvel Team-Up #88, released 3 years and 3 months after the last appearance of the Spider-Mobile (in ASM #160), Spidey says to the Invisible Woman that he doesn't know how to drive.

But that issue came out in 1979, so I can't expect Marvel editors to have THAT kind of long-term memory...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well, the original Spider-Mobile story established quite well that he didn't know how to drive (the Human Torch had to take the wheel and give him lessons before he killed someone!).

[Themanofbat]

Sounds cool to me, provided I don't see any further evidence of you participating in derision toward that other Hype member to which I referred.

A tenuous peace begins.

:wolverine

I hate to sound like an ass, but I really have no idea of who you're referring to.

Perhaps a PM is in order.

:confused: :o

[giggs11uk]

he's Tony Starks ****** it dosn't get worse then that. Maybe a fight with iron man and spidey seriously kicking his a$$ will work. I want tony in a como caused by the spidey suit he made. Only if marvel had the balls

[James"007"Bond]

He's in trouble? I'm loving the Spidey books right now. How quickly you people forget the Byrne/Mackie years.

Those years are looking rather good right now, when considering all the crap we're getting. The only spidey books I'm reading these days are ultimate and spectacular.

[shinlyle]

Being arrogant is just fine and dandy, as long as you're right. :) :up:

:wolverine

Amen, brother...amen. :up:

[Cullen]

Being arrogant is just fine and dandy, as long as you're right. :) :up:

:wolverineAnd being insolent is super keen, especially when you're right!:up:

[Herr Logan]

And being insolent is super keen, especially when you're right!:up:

Do I need to have a light-up sign that says "Don't Speak" to keep you in line? Maybe a remote controlled collar that shocks you when you're bad?

:wolverine

[dan1]

ya' hear the news? JoeQ and JMS want to 'save' Spider-Man now.

**cking pathetic.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

With th' latest news, I'd hafta vote an emphatic no. Stick a fork in him and just cancel th' damn book. It's over.

[OtepApe]

I have always said Spider-man is never done, he can always come back. Marvel are making it really, really hard for me to keep that opinion. Honestly, Spider-man won't be saved until either Quesada or JMS is away from it.

They don't know how to 'save' the character anymore. They don't know who the character is anymore.

I have seen loads of character go through bad times, only to be rejuvinated and become awesome once again. I always thought that would be the eventuality with Spider-man. I still stick to that, but I say it with a nervousness in my voice.

[shinlyle]

ya' hear the news? JoeQ and JMS want to 'save' Spider-Man now.

**cking pathetic.

They don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.

Spider-Man can be saved, but it's JMS and Joey Q. from whom is needs to be rescued.

[roach]

Spiderman can be saved and it will only come from someone who loves the character and not someone who is there to increase sales. I've defended JMS in the past but the Iron Spidey costume has gotten me to drop the Spidey books.
1) Stop the gimicks. There is no need for costume changes, Spider gods or internet splintering ideas. Leave the character alone.
2) Let Gwen rest in peace. Why would MJ still be with a guy that is obsessed with his ex-girlfriend
3) Make his villains a threat again. Why would Electro faint because of Luke Cage?????? Make Spidey struggle with his foes.
4)Make Peter a real man with real problems again. Married life presents a whole new dimension of problems. How do you handle a wife who wants a baby and you dont want to because of the radioactive spiderbite?????
5) remember what it is that you love about Spiderman and write that...I call it writing a love letter to the character...other love letters are: Claremont's first run on Uncanny, Waid on FF, Miller on DD, Busiek on Avengers...these are also refered to as definitive runs.

[shinlyle]

Didn't the Spider-Moblie stories establish that he didn't have a driver's license?

Yes....quite conclusively,too.

Looks like SiaT actually proved himself wrong.

[deemar325]

I think Spidey can be saved.

Heres the thing he's will not be saved under Joey Q's care.

[SpideyInATree]

Didn't the Spider-Moblie stories establish that he didn't have a driver's license?

Then Pete was illegally driving his motorcycle for all those years. Figured you'd need a license for those bad boys too.

In the latest issue of New Avengers Bendis beats it home that he doesn't have a license. So, I guess no one can make their minds up.

I'll just go with that Pete had a license for a short amount of time for his motorcycle. Otherwise, Pete was being a bad boy. :o

[Cullen]

Then Pete was illegally driving his motorcycle for all those years. Figured you'd need a license for those bad boys too.

In the latest issue of New Avengers Bendis beats it home that he doesn't have a license. So, I guess no one can make their minds up.

I'll just go with that Pete had a license for a short amount of time for his motorcycle. Otherwise, Pete was being a bad boy. :oAs I recall it, motocycle license and car licenses aren't the same thing.

[SpideyInATree]

As I recall it, motocycle license and car licenses aren't the same thing.

I know that. But its still a license...is it not?

[Norman Osborn]

I know that. But its still a license...is it not?

Yes they are.....but you don't need one to have the other....they are in no way related (Other then they both allow you to drive a motorized vehicle), they're not even in the same class of license......it's like assuming spidey is illegally fishing because he doesn't have a Car license......a fishing license is still a license is it not?:)

Plus if someone told me they didn't have a license, I'm sure myself and the vast majority of the population would assume he can't drive a car and would not bat an eye if they saw him on the road in a motorbike!

[SpideyInATree]

Heh. A fishing license.

I know what you mean.

But I'm sticking with the motorcycle. Yes, I know the licenses are different...but its still a license to drive a different type of motor vehicle and he'd need one or else he'd have been illegally driving his motorcycle all those years.

So, technically he had to have had a license. For the motorcycle.