The Official '52' Thread

[Tropico]

Firelord gave Cyborg a wrench, heh. :oldrazz:

Your Marvel Zombiness is showing, that's Firestorm.:p:D

[SpideyInATree]

Meh, Firelord...Firestorm....they both look similar. :oldrazz:

[DonnaTroy84]

who sent cassie the dosier from france?

Ralph Dibny. He mentioned to her that he'd been in Marseilles, and after he left, she looked at the return address, which was in Marseilles.

I'm all for Renee as the new Question, and, oddly, i'm kinda likin' her & Kate too. I also don't think Nightwing was flirting with her. It was definitely a "welcome to the Bat family thing" as someone said. Especially giving her a "real" Batarang. That was cool. :woot:

[Eros]

Ralph Dibny. He mentioned to her that he'd been in Marseilles, and after he left, she looked at the return address, which was in Marseilles.

I'm all for Renee as the new Question, and, oddly, i'm kinda likin' her & Kate too. I also don't think Nightwing was flirting with her. It was definitely a "welcome to the Bat family thing" as someone said. Especially giving her a "real" Batarang. That was cool. :woot:

Renee will never truly be the question. Just like how Dick Grayson was never truly batman when he replaced bruce for awhile.

[Varient]

Ralph Dibny. He mentioned to her that he'd been in Marseilles, and after he left, she looked at the return address, which was in Marseilles.

I'm all for Renee as the new Question, and, oddly, i'm kinda likin' her & Kate too. I also don't think Nightwing was flirting with her. It was definitely a "welcome to the Bat family thing" as someone said. Especially giving her a "real" Batarang. That was cool. :woot:
That was definetly Dick Grayson.

[Mister J]

Just got caught up from Week 25. I don't like this 'current Question dying/...arise new, female Question' nonsense at all. On the bright side, it appears that Black Adam is more aware that he has testicles than when I last read. The upcoming Luthor-Supernova deal shove be pretty good and these covers continue to kick ass.

In closing, lipstick lesbians are great. :up:

[WompuM]

The clown has a point.

[yenaled]

Still don't think Question is dead.

[Mister J]

It comes across as too obvious (and I'm praying it is). Q's way too wicked of a character to go out in an agonizing, delirium-inducing, morphine-laced, blaze of phlegm-causing, whooping cough, cancerous misery. 'Tis the suck.

[Colossal Spoons]

I knew Lex would shut off everyone's powers but damn, the way he did it was more A-holey than I imagined.

[Kebab gud]

considering the cover of the next issue i dont think he shut them down..
or maybe he did and they all startet fires arround metropolis

[Colossal Spoons]

I think those fires are just for show.

[Fledermaus]

Luthor detonated explosive placed strategically around Metropolis. He's manufacturing a 'big-bad' that only Luthor and his "heroes" can stop. Everyone will think he's a hero. That's what I would do, anyway.

[yenaled]

I'm pretty sure the fires are actually the everyman heroes on fire.

[Pksoze]

Maybe they could make a guy named Walter Kovacs the new Question.

;)

[WompuM]

Maybe the fires arent on the real cover. like when they whited out robin in the preview cover of IdC #5.

[GoldenAgeHero]

i agree with everyone else. luthor shuts off everyone's powers because he's jealous that he can't get any powers himself. so he shuts everyone down and which leaves it almost impossible for supernova to save them all.

[Colossal Spoons]

^Bingo

[WompuM]

someone posted this on newsarama but they were definatly right.
in the newest issue of blue beetle, jaime's lady friend gets zapped to new genesis and some mutant gopher things show her scraps of clothes of those who escaped before and it was a pice of clothe that looked like it was torn from animal man's costume. and the gophers were also worshipping a red head. looks like the space heroes are heading for new genesis for sure

[SpideyInATree]

Another pretty interesting week for 52. I don't know about anybody else buy I was laughing my ass off at the part where Luthor was drugging Clark Kent. That was good stuff. And, of course, Osiris freaking tearing a guy in half was pretty bad ass too. I have to say I was rather disappointed with the lack of Ralph Dibny and floating Dr. Fate helmet. :csad:

[Kitsune]

Another pretty interesting week for 52. I don't know about anybody else buy I was laughing my ass off at the part where Luthor was drugging Clark Kent. That was good stuff. And, of course, Osiris freaking tearing a guy in half was pretty bad ass too. I have to say I was rather disappointed with the lack of Ralph Dibny and floating Dr. Fate helmet. :csad:
DC should sell a little Floating Dr. Fate Helmet think... have it with magnets inside or something.... That would be cool.

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, it would be cool to have your own Dr. Fate floating head. DC's marketing department is lazy and slow...I'd have been all over that from the beginning. :o

[Eros]

Another pretty interesting week for 52. I don't know about anybody else buy I was laughing my ass off at the part where Luthor was drugging Clark Kent. That was good stuff. And, of course, Osiris freaking tearing a guy in half was pretty bad ass too. I have to say I was rather disappointed with the lack of Ralph Dibny and floating Dr. Fate helmet. :csad:

wait I didn't read the issue yet, Luthor had clark Kent, and he didn't remove Clarks glasses not once?:huh:

[Saved]

Another pretty interesting week for 52. I don't know about anybody else buy I was laughing my ass off at the part where Luthor was drugging Clark Kent. That was good stuff. And, of course, Osiris freaking tearing a guy in half was pretty bad ass too. I have to say I was rather disappointed with the lack of Ralph Dibny and floating Dr. Fate helmet. :csad:I love ill-concived plans!

[SpideyInATree]

Nope, they shot him full of truth serum and wanted to know all he knew about Supernova and his identity.

[WompuM]

Nope. You'd think during the kidnapping and drugging they would slip off at some point.

[Saved]

God, all this happened in 52 this week? What superhero didn't they f- with?

[Kitsune]

Yeah, it would be cool to have your own Dr. Fate floating head. DC's marketing department is lazy and slow...I'd have been all over that from the beginning. :o
I have one on my desk...

[Saved]

I have one on my desk...C-can....you use it?

[Kitsune]

C-can....you use it?
Sorry, I meant to type "I'd have one on my desk"

[LinternaVerde]

has anyone read the last blue beetle issue?

it shows a piece of animal man suit

[WompuM]

yeah, i saw that.

[Orko Is King]

Can someone give me a detailed summary of #24-32?

[Mister J]

Can someone give me a detailed summary of #24-32?
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/archive/52roundup.cfm

[sinewave]

sounds like issue #35 will be a big one. not only do we find out what luthor did to infinity, inc. and metropolis that landed him in jail, but one of the heroes in space (animal man, starfire and adam strange) dies and we finally find out who supernova is. can't wait!

edit: i guess not all those events will occurr in issue #35. i misread the synopsis. they're all supposed to happen by the end of the month.

[SpideyInATree]

I really hope that Animal Man doesn't die.

[sinewave]

i've got a bad feeling that he does. i actually wouldn't care if starfire died. i know she's hot and everything, but i've never really gotten into her. plus, that would put an end to the spectulation that she and dick will get hitched eventually.

[SpideyInATree]

I guess it would seem fitting if they offed Animal Man. I mean this series got me into The Question and they killed him off. And considering that Animal Man is the only one in that trio I truly enjoy...it's bound to happen. :csad:

Poor Animal Man. I wish I liked Starfire...than she could be the one who dies.

[SouLeSS]

I kind of don't like this whole "lost in space" storyline at all. Infinity Inc and Dr. Fate floaty head are more or less what I'm looking forward to read each week.

That and the whole "lets see if I can figure out who Supernova is and wtf 52 means" thing.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Animal man:(

[Mister J]

I thought we weren't going to find out who Supernova was until some (last time I checked unspecified) #1 issue.

I'd hate to see Buddy killed off, but better him than Kori. I don't know why.

...that's a lie. It's because she's hot. Considering the fact that she's fictional, that's pretty sad on my part.

[SpideyInATree]

Yes, that is sad. But it's OK sometimes drawn half naked women can get the best of us.

[Knives122]

I was reading GL #15 earlier today after I discovered it had come out 2 months ago and something sorta dawned in my head.

That little bald-headed guardian said "You'll tell us what you know about The 52". This is more or less the first time 52 has been stated in the plural tense(as far as I know).

This could mean that 52 isn't so much a thing like I thought but maybe a group of people, like a certain group of people being "monitored" right now.

I really don't expect this to be right, but it sorta makes sense if you think about it.

[sinewave]

I was reading GL #15 earlier today after I discovered it had come out 2 months ago and something sorta dawned in my head.

That little bald-headed guardian said "You'll tell us what you know about The 52". This is more or less the first time 52 has been stated in the plural tense(as far as I know).

This could mean that 52 isn't so much a thing like I thought but maybe a group of people, like a certain group of people being "monitored" right now.

I really don't expect this to be right, but it sorta makes sense if you think about it.

i bet it ties into world war 3.

[SouLeSS]

I bet YOU tie into WW3.

[WompuM]

Are there 52 monitors???

[Knives122]

There could be, in Ion #latestissue they showed around 9 monitors in that room.

So it is a possibility.

[Doc Destruction]

I bet YOU tie into WW3.

Do you?

[sinewave]

I bet YOU tie into WW3.

Do you?

i vill say nuhzink! :dry:

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I think somewhere, Grant Morrison said that one way or another, this will be the last Animal Man story he ever writes.

I'd say that doesn't bode well for Buddy.

[1987olds442]

I was just wondering where is the Eradicator during 52? Have we seen him since the crisis?

[sinewave]

man, lex luther keeps reaching new levels of dickness in almost every issue of this series. i'm looking forward to seeing him get nailed, finally. i wonder if his latest move is what kickstarts the upcomming world war 3 in 52?

[The Question]

I have a theory: The Lex we've been seeing so far is not Lex. It's Everyman. At some point he must have copied Lex's form and took his place at some point. Maybe it could even turn out that the Lex in "Up Up and Away" was Everyman aswell. I know it's wishful thinking, but I remember a time when Lex was an actual, three dimensional character and not Snidely Whiplash in a baldcap like he has been recently.

[WompuM]

I don't think everyman is lex but i do think that he is jake. and is going to snitch to lex when natasha tells him jonh henry's plan.

[Eros]

I have a theory: The Lex we've been seeing so far is not Lex. It's Everyman. At some point he must have copied Lex's form and took his place at some point. Maybe it could even turn out that the Lex in "Up Up and Away" was Everyman aswell. I know it's wishful thinking, but I remember a time when Lex was an actual, three dimensional character and not Snidely Whiplash in a baldcap like he has been recently.

Its lex, eventually at some point during 52, something happens and he goes all silver-age Lex.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

Hmmm. Supernova = Captain Atom, maybe?

[The Question]

Its lex, eventually at some point during 52, something happens and he goes all silver-age Lex.

I know. I'm just hoping that we somehow get a reason for Lex turning from an actual person to a bad sci-fi stock character. :csad:

[PWN3R]

Just read #34 and NO! The Question doesn't die. No.

.....no....:csad:

[The Question]

Well, since Reynee and Vic have been dealing with an international crime syndicate/terrorist organization/cult in their storyline, I think Vic'll be back. Two words: Lazerous Pit.


Also, I thought it was a nice nod to the Denny O'Neil series to have him singing Danny Boy as he died.

[PWN3R]

Lazerous Pit. Didn't think of the obvious, never do.

But wouldn't he be all crazy? Scratch that, he already is. :up:

[The Question]

They only causes temporary insanity, and slight long term brain damage if you use them alot (like Ra's does).

[Tropico]

Tell that to Cassandra. BTW, it's Lazarus and René.

[PWN3R]

Tell that to Cassandra. BTW, it's Lazarus and René.

dat dare gramer is for dem skewl peoples.

[Tropico]

kebab gud must be the "skewlest" guy around here.:o

[The Question]

Tell that to Cassandra.

Yes, because what they did with her made so much sense. :o

[GoldenAgeHero]

i knew it and so did a couple of others lex shuts off everyones powers! that one panel where that fat chick landed on that dude was kinda funny.:) so nat finally listen to her uncle and teams up with jake to blow lex's scheme. and turns out lady styx had put out a bounty on the space explorers and lobo is taking them to her.

[PWN3R]

Yeah it really shows the intelligence of Nat. It takes her over 20 issues to figure out that Lex Luthor is bad. Whew go Nat!

[GoldenAgeHero]

the thing impised about is whatever happen tothat doctor steelb was seeing? i actually thought i relationship was going to blossomout of that and the chick would be the new female steel.

[Tropico]

the thing impised about is whatever happen tothat doctor steelb was seeing? i actually thought i relationship was going to blossomout of that and the chick would be the new female steel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/DDude/Owned/DRINKPOST.jpg

[Assassin]

Why was zaurel falling out of the sky with the Lex hero's?

[The Question]

Probably just some Zauriel fanboy.

[Assassin]

It was leaguer?

[The Question]

Probably.

[Manic]

Yeah it really shows the intelligence of Nat. It takes her over 20 issues to figure out that Lex Luthor is bad. Whew go Nat!
20 issues... real-time comic... 20 weeks? It took that dizzy broad 20 weeks to remember Lex Luthor is a bad guy? How dense do you have to be? What's worse, is that it took the combined efforts of the Birds of Prey to get her to listen.
Steel was right. She hasn't earned the right to wear a costume. It requires a certain level of common sense.

In the mean time, I refuse to believe the Question is dead. I'll believe it when I see the funeral issue.

[Mister J]

Pretty meh this week, although there was some comedy as a result of Luthor's little stunt. It's about time Natasha showed some common sense. Come on, it's Lex flippin' Luthor! How can you trust him? (I miss JLU :().

Lost in Space is starting to wear on my nerves. Get to the good stuff already ...or have Lobo rip Starfire's top again. :up:

[Manic]

have Lobo rip Starfire's top again. :up:
Followed by Star making a "money" gesture with her hands. She propositioned him, I know it.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

They only causes temporary insanity, and slight long term brain damage if you use them alot (like Ra's does).
I hope it reverts his personality back to the real Ditko Question, not this metrosexual zen buddhist poser.

[The Question]

I hope it reverts his personality back to the real Ditko Question, not this metrosexual zen buddhist poser.

1) The pits don't work like that at all.

2) So, you want to do away with years worth of character developement? It's not as if they suddenly and drastically changed him. It was a gradual and natural progression. And he still wasn't completely changed. He was still the same person, but just more aware of his flaws.

3) He was never metrosexual. :huh:

[Manic]

Yeah, where'd the metrosexual thing come from?

[Pksoze]

1)

2) So, you want to do away with years worth of character developement? It's not as if they suddenly and drastically changed him. It was a gradual and natural progression. And he still wasn't completely changed. He was still the same person, but just more aware of his flaws.




Character devolopment is in the eyes of the beholder.

Ditko's Question would never have quit Hub City.

[Darthphere]

Lee's Spider-Man would never have unmasked, **** changes, get over it.

[sinewave]

I don't think everyman is lex but i do think that he is jake. and is going to snitch to lex when natasha tells him jonh henry's plan.

i bet it's hulkling. :dry:

[Darthphere]

It's Iron Fist you idiot.

[sinewave]

It's Iron Fist you idiot.

you're just jealous 'cause i called the whole iron fist-as-daredevil thing way before you thought of it. :cmad:

[Darthphere]

Poppycock! We all know DBM was right, it was Ned Leeds.

[sinewave]

balderdash!!!! it was ma hunkle! wait, i'm so confused. what wuz we talkin' 'bout again?

[Pksoze]

Lee's Spider-Man would never have unmasked, **** changes, get over it.


Just stating what's great to one person is horrible to another.

[Darthphere]

The Question, as we know him has been around for 20 years, and the best argument you've presented so far for why he was much better as the Ditko version is "He would never have left Hub City" Forgive me if I'm not convinced by that, considering having read the some issues of Ditko's Question, I still have yet to see anything that I would call "*****worthy" which people know, is impossible from me.

[Pksoze]

The Question, as we know him has been around for 20 years, and the best argument you've presented so far for why he was much better as the Ditko version is "He would never have left Hub City" Forgive me if I'm not convinced by that, considering having read the some issues of Ditko's Question, I still have yet to see anything that I would call "*****worthy" which people know, is impossible from me.


Ditko's Question was a unique hero. His view was that essentially A is A.

"The word "we" crushes all beneath it, and that which is white and that which is black are lost equally in the gray of it."
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
"You must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil."
"A is A."


Question was a hero who never compromised, never quit , and fought for his own reasons.

The closest we've had to a pure Question moment was Rorsharch's heroic act in the end of Watchmen.

And yes I find that type of pure character very interesting. He was the first hero who wouldn't save a bad guy from dying. He felt people ultimately made their own decisions.

He wasn't a quitter, wasn't a compromiser, and was the first truly philosophical hero created.

And yes he wouldn't have left Hub City. ;)

[Darthphere]

I still fail to see how the "modern" Question doesn't share those traits.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

I still fail to see how the "modern" Question doesn't share those traits.
How about the fact that old Question was a right-wing objectivist nutcase and that new age zen shamanism this new "Question" ascribes to is about as far as you can get from that philosophy. Ditko's Question would probably call this "Question" a "dirty hippy" and drop him down an elevator shaft.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

2) So, you want to do away with years worth of character developement? It's not as if they suddenly and drastically changed him. It was a gradual and natural progression. And he still wasn't completely changed. He was still the same person, but just more aware of his flaws.

What you see as character development, I call it a waste of a good character. O'Neil basically stripped the character of his essence, because it didn't fit his personal views, for some reason. :whatever:
Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are the only DC books that nailed the character, the rest is a Ditko-rapefest.

[yenaled]

This argument is so modern.

Hey guys what do you think of Regan winning the election? A actor in the white house! Lunacy!

[The Question]

Ditko's Question was a unique hero. His view was that essentially A is A.



"The word "we" crushes all beneath it, and that which is white and that which is black are lost equally in the gray of it."

"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."

"You must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil."

"A is A."





Question was a hero who never compromised, never quit , and fought for his own reasons.



The closest we've had to a pure Question moment was Rorsharch's heroic act in the end of Watchmen.



And yes I find that type of pure character very interesting. He was the first hero who wouldn't save a bad guy from dying. He felt people ultimately made their own decisions.



He wasn't a quitter, wasn't a compromiser, and was the first truly philosophical hero created.



And yes he wouldn't have left Hub City. ;)

The thing is, he came back to Hub City. Besides, a big incentive for his leaving was to take Myra's daughter away from the chaotic mess that Hub City had become.

How about the fact that old Question was a right-wing objectivist nutcase and that new age zen shamanism this new "Question" ascribes to is about as far as you can get from that philosophy. Ditko's Question would probably call this "Question" a "dirty hippy" and drop him down an elevator shaft.

The thing is, Vic wasn't changed as drastically as you seem to think he is. The biggest real change under O'Neil's pen was that he worked through alot of his anger issues.

What you see as character development, I call it a waste of a good character. O'Neil basically stripped the character of his essence, because it didn't fit his personal views, for some reason. :whatever:
Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are the only DC books that nailed the character, the rest is a Ditko-rapefest.

....did you and I read the same comics? :huh:

The character wasn't raped. O'Neil took a fairly two dimensional character (which Vic origionally was), and explored exactly what made him tick. He humanized him.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

O'Neil took a fairly two dimensional character (which Vic origionally was), and explored exactly what made him tick. He humanized him.No, Alan Moore did that. O'Neil completely changed the character, there never was a Ditko Vic Sage in O'Neil's run to begin with. He was just some wannabe vigilante tough guy who got shot and became a buddhist. Where's 'A is A'? where's "There is right and there is wrong, there's no grey area"? Why didn't he explore those traits of the character? Because he didn't bother to include them to begin with.

[The Question]

No, Alan Moore did that. O'Neil completely changed the character, there never was a Ditko Vic Sage in O'Neil's run to begin with. He was just some wannabe vigilante tough guy who got shot and became a buddhist. Where's 'A is A'? where's "There is right and there is wrong, there's no grey area"? Why didn't he explore those traits of the character? Because he didn't bother to include them to begin with.

Again, we obviously read a different comic here. He didn't "get shot and become a buddhist." Hell, I don't think you could have ever called him a buddhist through the entire series. O'Neil didn't completely change the character. He actually gave the character depth and explored what made him tick.

And yes, Moore did humanize him. By portraying him as finally haveing gone completely insane after fighting a losing battle for 20 years while the whole world went to **** around him. That really wouldn't have worked as an ongoing.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

Again, we obviously read a different comic here. He didn't "get shot and become a buddhist." Hell, I don't think you could have ever called him a buddhist through the entire series. O'Neil didn't completely change the character. He actually gave the character depth and explored what made him tick.He did give him depth and explain what made him tick - the O'Neil random vigilante guy Question, not the Charlton Question.

And yes, Moore did humanize him. By portraying him as finally haveing gone completely insane after fighting a losing battle for 20 years while the whole world went to **** around him. That really wouldn't have worked as an ongoing.
I think it would've. If the Question was portrayed the way he was in DKSA, that would have made a great ongoing series IMO.

[The Question]

He did give him depth and explain what made him tick - the O'Neil random vigilante guy Question, not the Charlton Question.

No, the Charlton Question. The Charlton Question was a two dimensional character. O'Neil gave him a backstory, flaws, and quirks. He built upon the character, but he didn't replace him.

I think it would've. If the Question was portrayed the way he was in DKSA, that would have made a great ongoing series IMO.

No it wouldn't have. Vic was pretty cool in DKSA, but he was pretty much a side character. He had no depth.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

No, the Charlton Question. The Charlton Question was a two dimensional character. O'Neil gave him a backstory, flaws, and quirks. He built upon the character, but he didn't replace him.Then where's the Randian objectivism? Where are his absolute morals? Those traits were the essence of his character. Point me to an issue where O'Neil explores them.
No it wouldn't have. Vic was pretty cool in DKSA, but he was pretty much a side character. He had no depth.
He was a side character, but he's shown plenty of depth there. You can't tell me that someone who writes stuff like this has no depth:
"The world spins mad. The people are so intoxicated by luxury they forget everything that makes us more than house pets. Reason. Truth. Justice. Freedom. The human spirit is a shattered pane of glass – wrapped in soft velvet and soaked in sugary poison. Evil has seduced mankind. And mankind has shown all the chastity of a three-dollar whore."

[Varient]

.......................wow......................

[SpideyInATree]

The latest week wasn't too bad. The highlight, of course, was Luthor turning off the powers and all kinds of people dropping out of the sky. That was actually extremely morbid when I really think about it. And, once again, I noticed the lack of Ralph Dibny and floating Dr. Fate head. What's up with you guys, we need more Dibny/Dr. Fate floating head action.

[The Question]

Then where's the Randian objectivism? Where are his absolute morals? Those traits were the essence of his character. Point me to an issue where O'Neil explores them.

Those were apart of him during the series. O'Neil didn't have him quoting Atlas Shruged, but the focus of the entiure series was Vic questioning himself and his own beliefs. So yes, he did waver in his convictions. But that's because everyone questions what they believe at one point or another. O'Neil was trying to make the character human, and most humans question what they believe and doubt themselves alot. It was still the same character. He was just given layers of humanity that he lacked before.

He was a side character, but he's shown plenty of depth there. You can't tell me that someone who writes stuff like this has no depth:
"The world spins mad. The people are so intoxicated by luxury they forget everything that makes us more than house pets. Reason. Truth. Justice. Freedom. The human spirit is a shattered pane of glass – wrapped in soft velvet and soaked in sugary poison. Evil has seduced mankind. And mankind has shown all the chastity of a three-dollar whore."

Yes, I can. That's not character depth. That's a deep observation about the state of humanity, but the character himself showed no depth.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

Those were apart of him during the series. O'Neil didn't have him quoting Atlas Shruged, but the focus of the entiure series was Vic questioning himself and his own beliefs.And what were those beliefs? What did he specificaly believe in prior to meeting Richard Dragon? We never really knew much about him, except that he was "out there to fight crime". And **** "humanity". Lawd knows we've seen plenty of self-doubting losers in comic books already. What's wrong with a character that refuses to compomise his own beliefs no matter the cost?

Yes, I can. That's not character depth. That's a deep observation about the state of humanity, but the character himself showed no depth.Well yeah, you didn't see him having endless flashbacks and jerking off to Aristotle, but that's because he was a side character, after all. My point was that if they took that aspect of his character as a basis for the ongoing series, we'd get a much more interesting and unique character than what we have now.

[Kitsune]

"Don't Trust the Question, it lies" still makes me wonder about what's going on with Charlie/Vic

[Darthphere]

Were you two even alive when Ditko created The Question, wait, are any of you actually Steve Ditko? :wow:

[Manic]

"Don't Trust the Question, it lies" still makes me wonder about what's going on with Charlie/Vic
Same here. That's why I believe he isn't really dead. Probably high off his mind, though.

By the way, this book needs more Evil Skeets.

[Colossal Spoons]

or have Lobo rip Starfire's top again. :up:

Still not sure why she let him do that.

[Manic]

Doesn't Star come from a race that doesn't have any hang-ups with nudity?

[WompuM]

If they all look like her, I hope so.

[Manic]

You're forgetting comic book physiology. All men are buff, and all women are athletically slender with perky breasts. Only the rare villain and that one goofy friend are ever fat & awkward looking.

[Saved]

You're forgetting comic book physiology. All men are buff, and all women are athletically slender with perky breasts. Only the rare villain and that one goofy friend are ever fat & awkward looking.
True. Makes skinny people feel stupid. Thats why I started working out.

[yenaled]

Doesn't Star come from a race that doesn't have any hang-ups with nudity?

Yup.

[Kebab gud]

True. Makes skinny people feel stupid. Thats why I started working out.

yet most comicbook fans are fat..

[Pksoze]

Were you two even alive when Ditko created The Question, wait, are any of you actually Steve Ditko? :wow:



Yes I am Steve Ditko....



You found out my dark secret.

[The Question]

And what were those beliefs? What did he specificaly believe in prior to meeting Richard Dragon? We never really knew much about him, except that he was "out there to fight crime".

We knew he was an angry, arrogant person who saw things primairily in black and white. The changes to his character didn't so much alter his veiw on morality (even though they did make him slightly more aware of aspects of human nature that he previously ignored) as much as they made him more humble and helped him to channel his personality into more positive outlets.

And **** "humanity". Lawd knows we've seen plenty of self-doubting losers in comic books already. What's wrong with a character that refuses to compomise his own beliefs no matter the cost?

Because when that series came out, there weren't that many self doubting characters. At least not in mainstream comics. I'm not saying that he broke new ground in that regard, since it had been done before, but he wasn't being derivative either. My point is that real human beings do falter in their convictions. They do question their beliefs. Yes, if they'd done Vic exactly like he was back in the 60s, he wouldn't have left Hub. But you're forgeting one important fact: He came back.

Well yeah, you didn't see him having endless flashbacks and jerking off to Aristotle, but that's because he was a side character, after all. My point was that if they took that aspect of his character as a basis for the ongoing series, we'd get a much more interesting and unique character than what we have now.

I kind of disagree. Way I see it, Vic still looks at the world that way. He's just also aware that not every problem in the world can be solved by beating up the bad guys. His solo series had him become a much more responsible and self aware individual through a very natural progression. I'd rather not see all of that thrown away in one issue.

[ShadowBoxing]

"Don't Trust the Question, it lies" still makes me wonder about what's going on with Charlie/VicDoesn't really to me. Although it's possible he comes back it really seems this is what Greg Rucka really wants, take his character Renee Montoya and write some comic about her in costume.

Frankly this whole "ethno-diversifying" of DC has gotten out of hand. To make Question a lesbian-hispanic-alcoholic (trying to kill two birds with one stone I guess) is just absurd. I got a grand idea, next time DC wants to insert hispanics, African Americans and other ethnic groups into comics...make a NEW character with that race or ethnic identity. It's frankly kind of insulting to those minorities because in essence you're saying that "you cannot sell yourself as a character so you need an already established white characters identity tacked onto you". If they actually made the goal to write a character well instead of doing some weird overhaul like this I might actually start being interested....kinda like I was when 52 first started.

[The Question]

It seems unlikely that Rucka's the one who decided to kill Vic and replace him with Renee. Firstly, he's a big fan of The Question. That's why he's worked Vic into a few of his works. Second, he's often said that Renee isn't someone who'd put on a mask. Not her style.

[ShadowBoxing]

It seems unlikely that Rucka's the one who decided to kill Vic and replace him with Renee. Firstly, he's a big fan of The Question. That's why he's worked Vic into a few of his works. Second, he's often said that Renee isn't someone who'd put on a mask. Not her style.
Really...well maybe there is hope then.

[The Question]

Of course, the descision could be coming from on high and Rucka has little say either way.

[Pksoze]

We knew he was an angry, arrogant person who saw things primairily in black and white. The changes to his character didn't so much alter his veiw on morality (even though they did make him slightly more aware of aspects of human nature that he previously ignored) as much as they made him more humble and helped him to channel his personality into more positive outlets.


What you call angry & arrogant many would call someone who was very sure [/QUOTE]about & wouldn't give up his convictions.

He went from the template of that character to someone far more unsure.

Doesn't make him more heroic.



Because when that series came out, there weren't that many self doubting characters. At least not in mainstream comics. I'm not saying that he broke new ground in that regard, since it had been done before, but he wasn't being derivative either. My point is that real human beings do falter in their convictions. They do question their beliefs. Yes, if they'd done Vic exactly like he was back in the 60s, he wouldn't have left Hub. But you're forgeting one important fact: He came back.


Here's my criteria would Ditko respect the version who quit then came back. Remember he quit Marvel rather than compromise his integrity. The Question imho compromised himself.

And as insane as Kovacs was he stayed truer to Ditko's character than DC's Question. And while self doubters were rare so were characters that expressed The Question's Randian views which has played well in other interpretations of the character.

I kind of disagree. Way I see it, Vic still looks at the world that way. He's just also aware that not every problem in the world can be solved by beating up the bad guys. His solo series had him become a much more responsible and self aware individual through a very natural progression. I'd rather not see all of that thrown away in one issue.


You think he became a better person. I thought he was the Super Hero version of Howard Roark, a person who never gave up, never sold out his beliefs, and was a unique view of heroism.

Sure Ditko wasn't the greatest writer but the original character had lots of potential that could have been mined & used.

And heck Frank Miller had a point when he said that those that came after Ditko used his own creation against him.

[The Question]

What you call angry & arrogant many would call someone who was very sure about & wouldn't give up his convictions.

He went from the template of that character to someone far more unsure.

Doesn't make him more heroic.[/quote]

I didn't say he was more heroic. I said he was more human. And he didn't stay completely unsure of himself. He went through a long process of self evaluation and came out of it a much less angry, more humble person who is once again sure of his convictions.

Here's my criteria would Ditko respect the version who quit then came back. Remember he quit Marvel rather than compromise his integrity. The Question imho compromised himself.

Yeah, he did. But then he came back. He re-assumed his responsibilities because he knew he was being selfish. He had flaws which he has since fixed.

And as insane as Kovacs was he stayed truer to Ditko's character than DC's Question. And while self doubters were rare so were characters that expressed The Question's Randian views which has played well in other interpretations of the character.

But the thing is, he's over his self doubting phase. That was a character arc he went through. He's now a much more well rounded person who expresses a uniquely mixed philosophy.

You think he became a better person. I thought he was the Super Hero version of Howard Roark, a person who never gave up, never sold out his beliefs, and was a unique view of heroism.

And yet you seem to be forgeting something: He came back. Sure, he did give up for a while. But then he realized that he was being selfish and whiny and he came back. You can't blame someone for faultering when they pick themselves back up again afterwards.

Sure Ditko wasn't the greatest writer but the original character had lots of potential that could have been mined & used.

And heck Frank Miller had a point when he said that those that came after Ditko used his own creation against him.

I really don't think so. I doubt O'Neil had that on his mind when he wrote The Question. from what I've heard, O'Neil has alot of respect for Ditko. His goal was to give Vic's character more depth and richness than he origionally had. And I think he succeded. And undoing all of that in one Issue would be, I think, a mistake.

[SpideyInATree]

We seriously need some more Dr. Fate floating head in this series, there has been a serious lack of it.

[The Question]

Very true. Though, There's something that I've been wondering: Since Nabu is dead, who exactly is Fate right now?

[trustyside-kick]

Doesn't really to me. Although it's possible he comes back it really seems this is what Greg Rucka really wants, take his character Renee Montoya and write some comic about her in costume.

Frankly this whole "ethno-diversifying" of DC has gotten out of hand. To make Question a lesbian-hispanic-alcoholic (trying to kill two birds with one stone I guess) is just absurd. I got a grand idea, next time DC wants to insert hispanics, African Americans and other ethnic groups into comics...make a NEW character with that race or ethnic identity. It's frankly kind of insulting to those minorities because in essence you're saying that "you cannot sell yourself as a character so you need an already established white characters identity tacked onto you". If they actually made the goal to write a character well instead of doing some weird overhaul like this I might actually start being interested....kinda like I was when 52 first started.

If Supernova was actually a whole new character (but appearently he is someone else with a new costume, trying to trick everyone into thinking he's someone else or something, judging by the talk with Ralph Dibny), they could have done this. His costume is badass, his powers are cool, etc.

[BrianWilly]

Fate's helmet is apparently being animated just by its own ambient magical energy or something. Its "hosts" are gone, but it's been a mystic receptacle for so long that it has a will of its own.

MAGIC!!

[Crowforge]

Like in books of magic

[Colossal Spoons]

Ralph is being prepped to be the next Dr.Fate though right?

[yenaled]

Negative. Kent Nelson is the next Doctor Fate.

[sinewave]

Negative. Kent Nelson is the next Doctor Fate.

kent nelson's son kent jr.

[Colossal Spoons]

Negative. Kent Nelson is the next Doctor Fate.

Oh, I thought that was the point of the helmet chaperoning Ralph all over the damn place was. Who's this Kent Nelson person?

[sinewave]

he's the first doctor fate. his son is taking over the mantle.

[yenaled]

Nope, the new Kent Nelson is the nephew of the original Kent Nelson not his son.

http://www.stevegerber.com/images/fate-cover-large.jpg

Thought I would post it.

[sinewave]

Nope, the new Kent Nelson is the nephew of the original Kent Nelson not his son.

http://www.stevegerber.com/images/fate-cover-large.jpg

Thought I would post it.

really? i must have mis-read that interview. is that the cover of the first issue of an upcoming dr. fate series?

[Colossal Spoons]

When's this new Dr.Fate gonna happen? and what the heck is the helmet hangin out with Raplh for then?

[yenaled]

Yeah it's his nephew, unless they want to retcon a son into Kent's life and yeah it is the first cover to the new ongoing.

When's this new Dr.Fate gonna happen? and what the heck is the helmet hangin out with Raplh for then?

Either:

1) It's not doing anything, Ralph has gone a bit mad.

2) Just teaching him about the afterlife in preparation to his own time there.

3) Helping his soul get rest so Ralph can die.

4) Using him so the Helmet can find it's way to it's owner.

[yenaled]

Fail. Double post.

[sinewave]

thanks.

[Ultimate_Superman]

Rip Hunter is not Supernova, in the latest 52 him and Supernova are talking and working together in Kandor.

[yenaled]

Hello there Mr. Spoiler.

[trustyside-kick]

Yea, you should have waited to say that til tomorrow when the issue came out. At least it would give people time to realize that. Not everyone wants to know upcoming stuff and go to the sites to read the articles and what not like you do.

[sethcohen]

watch this!

you cant see what im saying because i spoiler tagged it!

neat huh?

[Ultimate_Superman]

watch this!

you cant see what im saying because i spoiler tagged it!

neat huh?Watch this

I don't give a **** about spoiler tags

neat huh?:whatever:

[drastic_quench]

Big Death Spoiler for 52 #36
Animal Man dies in the fight with Lady Styx. He has a little speech about how he believes in his family, the fight goes on, and then Starfire and the others find that he's been shot with Necrotoxin sometime during the fight. His last words are "promise you won't let me come back as a zombie".

[sethcohen]

Watch this

I don't give a **** about spoiler tags

neat huh?:whatever:


thats totally an asshat GAH type of thing to say... you dont wanna be like GAH do you? :woot:

[Kitsune]

kent nelson's son kent jr.
For some reason I see this and think "Aren't you Richard Simmons' best friend, Richard Simmons." from Family Guy.

[sinewave]

Big Death Spoiler for 52 #36
Animal Man dies in the fight with Lady Styx. He has a little speech about how he believes in his family, the fight goes on, and then Starfire and the others find that he's been shot with Necrotoxin sometime during the fight. His last words are "promise you won't let me come back as a zombie".

is that quote for real?

[Ultimate_Superman]

yes he is poking fun at Marvel Zombies. :D

[sinewave]

i prefer to think of it as a nod to george romero's "dead" movies. :)

[WompuM]

Where did you guys get to read it early???

[WompuM]

Just read 36, pretty big issue. Who the crap is supernova?

[GoldenAgeHero]

Big Death Spoiler for 52 #36
Animal Man dies in the fight with Lady Styx. He has a little speech about how he believes in his family, the fight goes on, and then Starfire and the others find that he's been shot with Necrotoxin sometime during the fight. His last words are "promise you won't let me come back as a zombie".


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 of all people why animal man damn take starfire or adam strange.

[Darthphere]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 of all people why animal man damn take starfire or adam strange.

It doesnt really help the spoiler if you mention "1 of all people" and then state " Take so and so instead"

[GoldenAgeHero]

It doesnt really help the spoiler if you mention "1 of all people" and then state " Take so and so instead"

yeah i did notice that, but i did'nt care enough to actually correct it.

[sethcohen]

are you sure you arent just finding new and creative ways to be a jerk?

[GoldenAgeHero]

are you sure you arent just finding new and creative ways to be a jerk?

maybe.

[sethcohen]

its nice to know you have goals

[WompuM]

You gotta love what you do chief.

[Assassin]

I said a few pages back, How did Starfire get her top fixed, now its off again. Whats up with that?

Charlie lives! And I hope Renee isnt the new question, i've said it before..but i hope it doesnt come true.

[Colossal Spoons]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 of all people why animal man damn take starfire or adam strange.

Hahahaha, now you have to like Vixen! :cmad:

[Assassin 2]

LOL He hates the blacks, he's a fake.

[Colossal Spoons]

Why the new name?

[Assassin 2]

I retired it at 10,000 posts, its all downhill after 10,000, My new slogan is 4x the Ass :up:

[Knives122]

10,000 posts ehh....

Is that why Darthphere the way he is?

[Eros]

changing your name man is like haveing an online sex change IMO.

[hippie_hunter]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 of all people why animal man damn take starfire or adam strange.

Wow, I guess Dan really wasn't joking that he hated the Justice League International.

[Dope Nose]

I said a few pages back, How did Starfire get her top fixed, now its off again. Whats up with that?

Charlie lives! And I hope Renee isnt the new question, i've said it before..but i hope it doesnt come true.

how about Ralph Dibny instead?

[Assassin 2]

He's a detectve, but Renee would be more mysterious. as long as they draw her prettier :down

[Colossal Spoons]

I retired it at 10,000 posts, its all downhill after 10,000, My new slogan is 4x the Ass :up:

Alrighty.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Hahahaha, now you have to like Vixen! :cmad:


nah dropped it, sucka!

[Colossal Spoons]

You dropped 52 or JLA?

[Assassin 2]

JLA is he's smart, 52 is he's stupid.

I'll go with 52

[Colossal Spoons]

JLA really isn't that bad. Besides, I need to get my Superman fix somewhere as I haven't decided on a Supes solo book to pick up yet.

[BrianWilly]

I really liked the issue.

It was obviously Morrison's own idea to kill off Buddy -- the dialogue in that whole scene was entirely and flagrantly Morrison's -- so I can't really fault it very much.

More disturbing to me in the issue was Osiris saying that everyone eventually learned why Wonder Woman did what she did so they forgave her...um, except that in Manhunter, they obviously don't know and they obviously didn't forgive. Which really goes more to illustrate Andreyko's lack of common sense (The World Court exonerated her...but no one in the US knows why?? The UN had all the evidence in the world in her defense...but the US is trying to hold a trial against her anyway?? 'Cause they just think there's magically no evidence anymore?) than anything wrong with this series.

[Assassin 2]

JLA really isn't that bad. Besides, I need to get my Superman fix somewhere as I haven't decided on a Supes solo book to pick up yet.

JLA isnt that bad but i was in the mood to insult GAH, and that was the only way at the time.

[Mister J]

Finally, some real action with Lost In Space. Not really surprised by the death; most of the speculation seemed to be leading there anyway. Still sucks though. Lobo was badass.

Question better survive all this drama.

Strangely, I'm starting to like the mousy, passive, big ass, talking alligator. Why do I sense that little Black Adam is going to cause his death somehow? :huh:

The bit with Supernova, Rip Hunter & Skeets makes me giddy. :up:

Dear Lord, a condensed and easily followed Power Girl origin? Inconceivable!

[WompuM]

You keep saying this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


And I've gotten the impression that the tawky crawky is going to kill Osiris.

[Pksoze]

I really don't think so. I doubt O'Neil had that on his mind when he wrote The Question. from what I've heard, O'Neil has alot of respect for Ditko. His goal was to give Vic's character more depth and richness than he origionally had. And I think he succeded. And undoing all of that in one Issue would be, I think, a mistake.



Sorry for the late reply but you have stated that the character of Question under his creator was 2 dimensional.

That he was inferior.

And I like Oneil's stories but having read about Ditko & the character he created hee would be unhappy.

A character that was morally sure becomes unsure.

A man who rejected mysticism now enamored with it.

A man who would die rather than quit, quits (yes he came back but the quitting still rankles).

These are beats Ditko probably loathed (if he read it).

Plus I know Ditko was probably angry that Oneil made Green Arrow of all people such a close friend.


Imho that is turning Ditko's creation against him.

[Kebab gud]

Plus I know Ditko was probably angry that Oneil made Green Arrow of all people such a close friend.
yeah has there been any storys at all with those two together after oneil was done?

[yenaled]

I thought Buddy's death was really touching. Liked how he was 4th wall breaking till the end and how he said his family knows he loves them. I'm hoping it won't be the end though because he is an amazing (and VERY unique) character which is just a waste to permanently kill.

[WompuM]

I agree. His death didn't seem like a stunt though, like superboy's.

[Darthphere]

Plus I know Ditko was probably angry that Oneil made Green Arrow of all people such a close friend.

If you're going to make a claim like this, I'm going to need a link to an interview or something that even suggests that.

[Pksoze]

If you're going to make a claim like this, I'm going to need a link to an interview or something that even suggests that.



I said probably, so that puts it in dispute.

But if you've ever read Rand or even Ditko's Mr. A work... a character like Green Arrow would not be well liked by objectivists(this is putting it very mildly)


http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/297/mr_a_defenders_sow11_1969.gif


Anyway here's more Ditko flavor


http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/297/

[The Question]

Sorry for the late reply but you have stated that the character of Question under his creator was 2 dimensional.

That he was inferior.

I wouldn't put it like that. He was still a good character when Ditko created him. But O'Neil did give him actual depth. I can't see how anyone can fault him for that.

And I like Oneil's stories but having read about Ditko & the character he created hee would be unhappy.

A character that was morally sure becomes unsure.

Because he's a human being. I'd rather have a character who acts like a real person than some ideal that doesn't exist. Everyone doubts themselves. Even the most confident people in the world do. And the fact of the matter is that he overcame alot of that self doubt.

A man who rejected mysticism now enamored with it.

1) Buddhism is not mysticism. Not by a long shot.

2) He was never even really a buddhist. The most buddhist thing he did was meditate. And meditating doesn't mean you're "enamored with mysticism." It's just something you can do to calm down and gain mental focus.

A man who would die rather than quit, quits (yes he came back but the quitting still rankles).

No, it doesn't. You see, this is something called a character arc. It's where a character goes through **** and has both very high points and very low points as to help the reader better understand exactly what makes said character tick. It's supposed to show that the character is a human being, no matter how unusual their experiences are. His quitting was a low point. His coming back was a high point. You can't fault a person for a low point when everyone has them,

These are beats Ditko probably loathed (if he read it).

Maybe. Or maybe he would have liked it after seeing the end result. We don't know, because neither of us are him. And I think it's in kind of bad taste to assume what someone else would have liked or disliked to help one's arguement.


Plus I know Ditko was probably angry that Oneil made Green Arrow of all people such a close friend.

Green Arrow wasn't his close friend. They met three times. Besides, even if they were good friends, you can be friends with someone without agreeing with their polotics. I've got alot of friends who I diagree with on alot of issues.

Imho that is turning Ditko's creation against him.

No, it's not. Turning it against him suggest a conscious descision to try and defeat Ditko's point of view. While I have no idea if that was O'Neil's intent or not, character developement seemed to be the more important reason.

[Colossal Spoons]

I wonder how the hell Montoya plans on draggin Charlie up to those mtns.

[Manic]

Montoya knows people who know people who know people who can use their powers to hurl Charlie up that mountain. Renee just has to Batwoman to call in a favor with Nightwing. Nightwing tells some random Green Lantern than the Question is dying. Wam, bam, Charlie is up the mountain.

[Colossal Spoons]

That's waaay too easy lol.

[TEDDY]

Ok guys. I normally stick with the Community forum, but I believe it's time for TEDDY to make some predictions for you about what will happen in 52:

1. Animal Man will not be the only one to die in space. If TEEN TITANS is any clue, Star Fire will not be coming back as well.

3. While Booster Gold died in 52, it looks like Boster Gold's ancestor will be taken over in his place, as clued in Justice League of America.

4. Also in the pages of Justice League, it looks like Vixen is having a little fling with the Question. While it looks pretty sure far gone for the Question right now, and IGN.com believes that Montoya will take up the mantle. However, A)I don't think Vixen is "playing for the other team". B)Renee is seeing her old flame Bat Girl. And C)Montoya is taking the Question to the Himalayas for a "Miracle Cure". Look for a recovery to Happen.

5. The "experts" over at Wizard magazine ran a list of canidates that "may" be SuperNova. The only canidate that makes any sense from their list is Ray "the Atom" Palmer. I'm not sure how he is managing to fly and stuff, but Ray is a scientist. I'm sure he can think of something. Plus, since his actions are usually covered by bright flashes of light, it's not out of the imagination how he can just "disappear". And I think the end of this week's 52 sealed it.

[Assassin]

Damn, I never thought of that, (Supernova) thats a good Idea.

[yenaled]

You don't need to spoiler theories, but it's been stated many times before that Supernova was someone who is in 52 and the plans were being laid down from Infinite Crisis.

[UK_Stu]

I'd never thought of Ray as a possibilty for for SuperNova, but i can see there are some compelling arguements for it. I do like Ray and like to see more of him again but I don't think he is Supernova.

Feeling I have is you can read 52 as a self contained series, so I think its more likely to be someone who has appeared in 52 already or has been mentioned. So I think its more likely to be Booster somehow

[Pksoze]

I wouldn't put it like that. He was still a good character when Ditko created him. But O'Neil did give him actual depth. I can't see how anyone can fault him for that.


I never faulted him for that, but Moore showed that depth can be given while being true to original character motivations.



[QUOTE]Because he's a human being. I'd rather have a character who acts like a real person than some ideal that doesn't exist. Everyone doubts themselves. Even the most confident people in the world do. And the fact of the matter is that he overcame alot of that self doubt.


Ditko's Question mirrored a lot of his own beliefs, and he was a real person. Sure people doubt themselves but it doesn't become a driving force. And yes Oneil's Question was heroic, I'm not disputing that. But I'm not sure he is really more human than Ditko's version.


1) Buddhism is not mysticism. Not by a long shot.

2) He was never even really a buddhist. The most buddhist thing he did was meditate. And meditating doesn't mean you're "enamored with mysticism." It's just something you can do to calm down and gain mental focus.


Well to Rand all types of religion were mysticism. On this point we'll have to agree to disagree.




No, it doesn't. You see, this is something called a character arc. It's where a character goes through **** and has both very high points and very low points as to help the reader better understand exactly what makes said character tick. It's supposed to show that the character is a human being, no matter how unusual their experiences are. His quitting was a low point. His coming back was a high point. You can't fault a person for a low point when everyone has them,


I know the heroic arc, but that doesn't occur. Where was Rorsharc's arc where he quit or even the Comedian in Watchmen.

Read Ditko's Mr. A (a character he wanted the Question to become) and tell me if he ever would quit.

I don't think a person who quits or has doubts is necessarily more human than one who doesn't.

To understand an extreme you should read Rand's the Fountainhead or her Romantic Manifesto. She influenced Ditko and it would show what she meant by heroism.


Maybe. Or maybe he would have liked it after seeing the end result. We don't know, because neither of us are him. And I think it's in kind of bad taste to assume what someone else would have liked or disliked to help one's arguement.


People make educated guesses. I can assume that Oneil wouldn't like if Green Arrow became an evangelical christian. Maybe he would but thats an assumption.

I am going by what he wrote, what Rand wrote, and looking how different his characters became from there original intention.



Green Arrow wasn't his close friend. They met three times. Besides, even if they were good friends, you can be friends with someone without agreeing with their polotics. I've got alot of friends who I diagree with on alot of issues.


Read Mr. A or Atlas Shrugged. A character like Green Arrow would have an adversarial relationship Ditko's Question.


No, it's not. Turning it against him suggest a conscious descision to try and defeat Ditko's point of view. While I have no idea if that was O'Neil's intent or not, character developement seemed to be the more important reason.


Yes character devolopment is important. And to be fair Oneil was pretty mild compared to soe of the crap they pulled off after him.

But the character was so fundamentally different in tone,character, and basic outlook I can't view this as anything but an inversion of Ditko's mores.



But on this note maybe we'll just agree to disagree.

[Jono87]

Ok guys. I normally stick with the Community forum, but I believe it's time for TEDDY to make some predictions for you about what will happen in 52:

1. Animal Man will not be the only one to die in space. If TEEN TITANS is any clue, Star Fire will not be coming back as well.

3. While Booster Gold died in 52, it looks like Boster Gold's ancestor will be taken over in his place, as clued in Justice League of America.

4. Also in the pages of Justice League, it looks like Vixen is having a little fling with the Question. While it looks pretty sure far gone for the Question right now, and IGN.com believes that Montoya will take up the mantle. However, A)I don't think Vixen is "playing for the other team". B)Renee is seeing her old flame Bat Girl. And C)Montoya is taking the Question to the Himalayas for a "Miracle Cure". Look for a recovery to Happen.

5. The "experts" over at Wizard magazine ran a list of canidates that "may" be SuperNova. The only canidate that makes any sense from their list is Ray "the Atom" Palmer. I'm not sure how he is managing to fly and stuff, but Ray is a scientist. I'm sure he can think of something. Plus, since his actions are usually covered by bright flashes of light, it's not out of the imagination how he can just "disappear". And I think the end of this week's 52 sealed it.
In response to items 3 and 4...
3. What Booster related clues are you talking about in JLA?
4. I don't think Vic or Renee sent the note. I always interpreted the note from "the Question" as nothing but bait to lure Vixen into the situation where her totem was stolen. I had always assumed the barman's comment that the Question hadn't been in Hub for a year to be a confirmation of this.

[Kebab gud]

In JLA#2
Clark: Booster gold. He was there for me when i went down. So i thought we should give his suit--
Burce: There are better ways to honor Ted.
Diana: Please Bruce, We should honor our fallen.
Bruce: Then build another statue. We don't need to--

Why did bruce say Ted? are they saying that they whould do Ted (Blue Beetle) a favor and bring inn his best friend? or did someone just screw up?

[BrianWilly]

Question: Clark says "He was there for me when I went down." But when was that? I don't remember Booster ever being there for Superman when he went down. Was this during the Death of Superman thingy? Or...perhaps something that we haven't seen yet?

Why would the end of Week 36 show that it was the Atom? He's not the only one who can be in that city. In fact, a lot of people have been there.

[Kebab gud]

he might talk about the fact that booster became the protector of metropolis when supermen lost his powers..

or the doomsday thing...

[TEDDY]

In response to items 3 and 4...
3. What Booster related clues are you talking about in JLA?
4. I don't think Vic or Renee sent the note. I always interpreted the note from "the Question" as nothing but bait to lure Vixen into the situation where her totem was stolen. I had always assumed the barman's comment that the Question hadn't been in Hub for a year to be a confirmation of this.


3. I'm assuming you've been reading the new JLA series. (If not, YOU SHOULD!) As you know, durring the first 3 issues the BIG THREE went over the pictures of possible canidates for the team. In issue... #2 I believe, they go over a picture of Booster Gold. They're all a little iffy about him, but only BATS has the balls to say it(our clue): something along the lines of "No. We shouldn't hire some rookie just to honor Michael's memory. If we really want to honor him, we should put up a statue of him in the Hall of Fallen Heroes.


4. I know he didn't send the note. But if he were DEAD she wouldn't have gone so willingly with the "intentions" that she had.(Unless she's got something for necrophillia that I didn't know about)

[Brian Braddock]

Question: Clark says "He was there for me when I went down." But when was that? I don't remember Booster ever being there for Superman when he went down. Was this during the Death of Superman thingy? Or...perhaps something that we haven't seen yet?

Why would the end of Week 36 show that it was the Atom? He's not the only one who can be in that city. In fact, a lot of people have been there.


Both guys were there - Booster was the one who came up with the name 'Doomsday' during (you were right) the 'Death of Superman' arc. He had his costume destoyed by Doomsday, who also put Ted into a coma.

[Kebab gud]

3. I'm assuming you've been reading the new JLA series. (If not, YOU SHOULD!) As you know, durring the first 3 issues the BIG THREE went over the pictures of possible canidates for the team. In issue... #2 I believe, they go over a picture of Booster Gold. They're all a little iffy about him, but only BATS has the balls to say it(our clue): something along the lines of "No. We shouldn't hire some rookie just to honor Michael's memory. If we really want to honor him, we should put up a statue of him in the Hall of Fallen Heroes.


4. I know he didn't send the note. But if he were DEAD she wouldn't have gone so willingly with the "intentions" that she had.(Unless she's got something for necrophillia that I didn't know about)


like i wrote
Clark: Booster gold. He was there for me when i went down. So i thought we should give his suit--
Burce: There are better ways to honor Ted.
Diana: Please Bruce, We should honor our fallen.
Bruce: Then build another statue. We don't need to--
no talk about rookies

[TEDDY]

Question: Clark says "He was there for me when I went down." But when was that? I don't remember Booster ever being there for Superman when he went down. Was this during the Death of Superman thingy? Or...perhaps something that we haven't seen yet?

Why would the end of Week 36 show that it was the Atom? He's not the only one who can be in that city. In fact, a lot of people have been there.

Yeah, I know. But it's a shrunken city. And, in the words of Palmer, "I feel so small..." And he was able to break into the Batcave, which is nearly impossible... unless you can go down to a molecular level. The only other person I see it being (though how exactly he is able to teleport I can't figure out) is Martian Manhunter. He made a brief cameo in 52, has practicly all the powers of Supes and it isn't the first time he's posed as another hero.

[TEDDY]

like i wrote
Clark: Booster gold. He was there for me when i went down. So i thought we should give his suit--
Burce: There are better ways to honor Ted.
Diana: Please Bruce, We should honor our fallen.
Bruce: Then build another statue. We don't need to--
no talk about rookies


Rookie talk, no. Rookie Booster, I believe so. After all, Ted is dead. Do you have any doubts about that? And I don't think anyone but Kord's ancestor would take up that mantle.

[Kebab gud]

i think your as confused as batman in that issue .. Ted is Blue Beetle..
i still dont know why bruce started to talk about him when supes started talking about booster.. but that was ALL that they said about booster

[Apprentice]

Okay, little question...I decided to wait for the TPBs to come out after 52's climax. But now, the news of WW3 has emerged, and when I did some research into the series, my interest was piqued. Should I go to the trouble of progessively buying the back-issues now, or continue to wait and just pick up the WW3 issues if I want them before the TPB? Is the series good enough to warrant buying them individually?

[Purple Man]

If you got the cash, you mind as well start picking up small chunks of the storyline now.

Once the series is over and the implications and survivors are shown in the OYL books, 52 may lose a little bit of its charm.

Like pizza, get it while its hot.

[Manic]

Why would anyone attempt to buy the trade paperbacks of a 52-issue series? That's roughly a dozen trades.

[Apprentice]

They'll probably do bigger, omnibus editions. Maybe in two or three trades?

[Varient]

I expect that "52" will be split up in trades by storyline.

There will be "52 Question, Batwoman, and Montoya",
"52 The Black Marvel Family", "52 the BoosterGold Supernova story", etc,....

[BrianWilly]

Okay, little question...I decided to wait for the TPBs to come out after 52's climax. But now, the news of WW3 has emerged, and when I did some research into the series, my interest was piqued. Should I go to the trouble of progessively buying the back-issues now, or continue to wait and just pick up the WW3 issues if I want them before the TPB? Is the series good enough to warrant buying them individually?

The short answer is yes. But it's really up to you; a lot of people have apparently been buying 52 sporadically and it's working out okay.

If you want the whole story, then yes it's worth it. If you don't want the whole story and are content to stick with one or two characters, you can probably just buy sporadic issues. For example, Renee's story and Black Adam's story crossed over at one point for several issues, but if you were just following one and not the other, you could still follow that one story pretty well and wouldn't be too confused about what's going on.

Then again, the series isn't over yet. Who knows how much prior info we're gonna need for the big finale?

You could just wait for the trade on everything if you want, since it's quite possible that the WWIII one-shots will eventually be made available in trade format anyway, like DC did with the Infinite Crisis Specials. But, again, who knows.

[BrianWilly]

I expect that "52" will be split up in trades by storyline.

There will be "52 Question, Batwoman, and Montoya",
"52 The Black Marvel Family", "52 the BoosterGold Supernova story", etc,....I doubt it. With all the stories crossing over into each other, it's going to be hard to separate them, especially nearer to the end. For example Alan Scott and John Irons appear at the beginning of the Lost in Space arc, and have sinced gone off into their own arcs. Renee's been in the Black Marvel Family arc quite a few issues, but not for the majority of her own arc. It would make no sense to separate them, or to bill them as something completely stand-alone.

[Manic]

Right. I'm expecting the trades to go something like "52 - Month One" or "52 - Weeks 1-5"

[Purple Man]

I expect that "52" will be split up in trades by storyline.

There will be "52 Question, Batwoman, and Montoya",
"52 The Black Marvel Family", "52 the BoosterGold Supernova story", etc,....

That'd be a terrible idea.

Where would issue 1 go? What about the issues where several different stories are covered? And if the answer is just splicing apart the issues and putting the appropriate parts in the individual trades, you would lose all sense of time in the series, and would be totally confused when characters crossover. You wouldn't be able to seperate the storylines into full issues, you'd have jumbles of story.

I'm guessing a gargantuan omnibus and/or about eight trades that'll have approximately six issues a piece.

Either way. The collected editions won't hold the same charm as getting a new installment weekly for an entire year.

While I firmly believe that people should collect the series through the individual issues, my main concern is that people read and enjoy this series at least half as much as I do. It's a wonderful and unique experience.

[sinewave]

Question: Clark says "He was there for me when I went down." But when was that? I don't remember Booster ever being there for Superman when he went down. Was this during the Death of Superman thingy? Or...perhaps something that we haven't seen yet?

Why would the end of Week 36 show that it was the Atom? He's not the only one who can be in that city. In fact, a lot of people have been there.

i think superman was referring to booster protecting metropolis while superman was de-powered, and the line about honoring ted is probably meant to address the fact that even though they don't respect booster after selling out for personal gain they still respect ted and his relationship with booster.

Yeah, I know. But it's a shrunken city. And, in the words of Palmer, "I feel so small..." And he was able to break into the Batcave, which is nearly impossible... unless you can go down to a molecular level. The only other person I see it being (though how exactly he is able to teleport I can't figure out) is Martian Manhunter. He made a brief cameo in 52, has practicly all the powers of Supes and it isn't the first time he's posed as another hero.

yeah, teleportation would allow entrance into the batcave, i think, so it doesn't necessarily need to be someone who can shrink down to the size of a molecule or smaller.

[Doc Destruction]

BOOYAH~!

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/WAcker/week37/5237.p3.jpg

NICE!

[BrianWilly]

..........oooooooooooooooh.

It could still just be someone using Ray's belt, though.

I can't wait.

EDIT: Actually, y'know, I'm just going to go ahead and believe that it's not who we think it is. Remember that Supernova is using different tech from different heroes.

[Kebab gud]

you see that his costume is nothing but pure high-tec i do not think its the atom, but it looks like we do get to se who it is .. as he leaves the suit behind..

[Varient]

you see that his costume is nothing but pure high-tec i do not think its the atom, but it looks like we do get to se who it is .. as he leaves the suit behind..

Finally.

[Varient]

Y'know who I'd love it to be?

Ted Kord
Hear me out:
This is the DC Universe,...He was shot in the head and the body NEVER RECOVERED.
Right during the Time of the OMAC's infecting Everyday normal people.
The Blue Beetle Qualifies as someone infected by the nanites and never knowing it.

His body gets dumped somewhere where there are raw materials for the nanites to work repair with,... and "Presto" He's back in an improved physical state,... and spends his time doing what he's good at,.. futzing with tech to construct a "super suit" to allow him to take up the slack for the missing heroes.

[Emerald Knight]

I could have sworn that Max ordered Ted's body cremated after he was shot.

and concerning Supernova...couldn't it be a reprogrammed Amazo android? It's exhibiting multiple superpowers...but eh, it's just a theory.

[Varient]

I expect that "52" will be split up in trades by storyline.

There will be "52 Question, Batwoman, and Montoya",
"52 The Black Marvel Family", "52 the BoosterGold Supernova story", etc,....

[Varient]

Whoa,... how did that happen??

[Emerald Knight]

computer farts?

[LinternaVerde]

superboy punches?

[Kebab gud]

superboy punches?
I want a tatoo of Superboy-Prime punching the wall :P

[Tropico]

I want a tatoo of Superboy-Prime punching the wall :P

Yeha! Across the back so it's really big! That would be so awesome! I'm gonna steel your idea and do it myself!

[yenaled]

Question: Clark says "He was there for me when I went down." But when was that? I don't remember Booster ever being there for Superman when he went down. Was this during the Death of Superman thingy? Or...perhaps something that we haven't seen yet?

Fact. After Superman went down against Doomsday, Booster Gold was the first hero to dive in to try and protect Superman and kill Doomsday.

[The Question]

I never faulted him for that, but Moore showed that depth can be given while being true to original character motivations.


But do you honestly think that anyone could have made a 36 issue series out of just Rorschach?

Ditko's Question mirrored a lot of his own beliefs, and he was a real person. Sure people doubt themselves but it doesn't become a driving force. And yes Oneil's Question was heroic, I'm not disputing that. But I'm not sure he is really more human than Ditko's version.

Ditko's version wasn't that fleshed out as a character. And doubt may very well become a driving force in someone's life if they go through the **** Vic went through in O'Neil's series. Besides, he got over his doubt. That was a low period in his life that he is now past.

Well to Rand all types of religion were mysticism. On this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

Vic wasn't even religious. The most buddhist thing he ever did was meditate. And you can be a complete athiest and still meditate.

I know the heroic arc, but that doesn't occur. Where was Rorsharc's arc where he quit or even the Comedian in Watchmen.

Read Ditko's Mr. A (a character he wanted the Question to become) and tell me if he ever would quit.

I don't think a person who quits or has doubts is necessarily more human than one who doesn't.

To understand an extreme you should read Rand's the Fountainhead or her Romantic Manifesto. She influenced Ditko and it would show what she meant by heroism.

Here's the deal: No one is infalible. You say that Ditko's Question would never quit. But Ditko's Question never went through a fraction of the **** that he did under O'Neil's pen. Yes, he quit. That was a low point in his life where he had lost hope and confidence. But he regained that hope and confidence. He came back. He's not a completely different character if he had doubts and fears that he no longer has.

People make educated guesses. I can assume that Oneil wouldn't like if Green Arrow became an evangelical christian. Maybe he would but thats an assumption.

The change was nowhere near that drastic.

I am going by what he wrote, what Rand wrote, and looking how different his characters became from there original intention.

And I honsetly don't see that huge a difference. Vic became alot more laid back and slightly more forgiving. That's it. O'Neil didn't contradict the character. He built upon him.

Read Mr. A or Atlas Shrugged. A character like Green Arrow would have an adversarial relationship Ditko's Question.

Maybe. But it's equally likely that they would have liked and respected each other and simply not bring up polotics when they were together. People can be good friends and disagree strongly on issues like that. And Vic and Ollie weren't good friends to begin with. They teamed up three times to deal with things that they were both morally opposed to and their veiws on polotics and society never came up.

Yes character devolopment is important. And to be fair Oneil was pretty mild compared to soe of the crap they pulled off after him.

But the character was so fundamentally different in tone,character, and basic outlook I can't view this as anything but an inversion of Ditko's mores.

I really don't see how he was so fundamentally different. He changed. He grew. But he was still the same basic person. The biggest difference is that he tended to replace long winded speaches about morality with bad jokes. And that's more writing style than anything else.

But on this note maybe we'll just agree to disagree.

Yes, we will.

[Jono87]

3. I'm assuming you've been reading the new JLA series. (If not, YOU SHOULD!) As you know, durring the first 3 issues the BIG THREE went over the pictures of possible canidates for the team. In issue... #2 I believe, they go over a picture of Booster Gold. They're all a little iffy about him, but only BATS has the balls to say it(our clue): something along the lines of "No. We shouldn't hire some rookie just to honor Michael's memory. If we really want to honor him, we should put up a statue of him in the Hall of Fallen Heroes.


4. I know he didn't send the note. But if he were DEAD she wouldn't have gone so willingly with the "intentions" that she had.(Unless she's got something for necrophillia that I didn't know about)


3. Yes, I have been reading JLA, and loving it as well. Though I disagree with your interpretation of Bruce and Clark's comments. It came across to me as Supes wanting to make booster at least an honorary member of the JLA as a way of memorializing him properly since his funeral was such a sack of crap. Bats on the other hand disagrees, and as such, makes the comment about there being better ways of honoring the dead, nothing more than Clark being Clark, and Bruce being Bruce. As far as Bruce saying Ted...these are written by humans guys, they aren't infallible, and though 'slip-ups' have proven to be quite intended, I strongly believe the "Ted" was nothing more than human error.

4. As for Vixen, I don't think she is into "necro" either, however, something tells me that If/When Vic dies, its not going to be publicized a la the Death of Superman. Where as Supes went out with a bang, if Vic goes out, it seems like it will be with a whimper. As such, I doubt the news will have reached the ears of every "Super." If it had, then Vixen most likely wouldn't have gone having already known that he was dead. To further this, I can see the editors giving Renee and Vic a couple weeks on hiatus which would further limit the time alloted for people to have told each other.

[yenaled]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Aprl07/first/52_Cv48_solicit.jpg

Week 48 cover.

[WompuM]

Please please please tell me that isnt a ponytail on that Question.

[Eros]

yea i see long hair as well.

[Kebab gud]

ponytail and a somewhat feminin hand

[Eros]

ponytail and a somewhat feminin hand


yep.

[marcofthebeast]

I think the new question is Micheal Jackson from the Smooth Criminal music video.

[WompuM]

If only we had boobs and a naked lesbian laying underneath to confirm it.

[Kebab gud]

i kinda feel like im the only one who dossent mind that renee is the new question..

[Mister J]

God, I'm still hoping this doesn't happen.

[Mee]

I hate hate hate hate it. :down

Bring back the real Question. Keep Montoya in BTAS or something.:huh:

You'd think with his new popularity from JLU DC would've cashed in on Question, not killed him.

[SpideyInATree]

This latest week was a pretty good issue. Though I was upset with the death of Animal Man, considering that he was kind of growing on me throughout this little series. Boo, Dc, Boo.

But overall this was a very good week. It's good to see that The Question is still alive and kicking, for now. Hopefully Montoya does something really useful, instead of having mad lesbian sex, and cure The Question so that he can continue to kick ass.

But I have to admit seeing Lobo lash out and slaughter everyone was pretty cool. :o

And further proof that Supernova could possibly be Booster Gold. That's getting very interesting now.

[Apprentice]

The first TPB of 52 has been shown in the preview solicits for April; it is 304 pages long, collecting issues #1-13.

[Manic]

i kinda feel like im the only one who dossent mind that renee is the new question..
You're not alone.

This is one of the few recent character-switches that I can actually get behind. This isn't some out-of-the-blue "oh my god, a new Blue Beetle!!!1one" thing, or bringing Batwoman back out of nowhere. We've been watching the entire build-up of Question teaching Renee to think like him for months, now.

People wouldn't be so b****-moany about Renee as the new Question if we didn't just get new minority versions of Atom, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, and Batwoman.

[Kebab gud]

thats the best part.. Batwoman and The Question sitting in a tree .... :P

[Kitsune]

Just imagine if College handled Affirmative Action the way DC does it. "I'm sorry kid, we have too many Caucasians, we're going to kill you and replace you with an ethnic minority. Don't like that? Tell you what, we'll just have your girlfriend go crazy and you can go in hiding for a while. Think of it as the 'Whiteness Protection Program'"

(PS: I this is supposed to be a joke. I hope it doesn't come a cross as offensive)

Edit in red should make more sense

[sinewave]

You're not alone.

This is one of the few recent character-switches that I can actually get behind. This isn't some out-of-the-blue "oh my god, a new Blue Beetle!!!1one" thing, or bringing Batwoman back out of nowhere. We've been watching the entire build-up of Question teaching Renee to think like him for months, now.

People wouldn't be so b****-moany about Renee as the new Question if we didn't just get new minority versions of Atom, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, and Batwoman.

yeah, montoya's character development has been handled very respectfully. she's been around for a long time and each of her major characteristics have progressed fairly organically. i don't feel like DC is hitting us over the head with PC-bull****e by making her a hispanic, lesbian or now the successor to the question. they've really shown a lot of respect for the character, and while i'll certainly miss vic as the question, i'm not unhappy about renee taking over for him due to the way it was ochestrated. you can tell rucka is very fond of her.

[Apprentice]

More news from Keith Chamagne on WW3: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97351

[Eros]

a war is comeing...a civil war......i mean WW3.

[SpideyInATree]

'Whiteness Protection Program'"
(PS: I this is supposed to be a joke. I hope it doesn't come a cross as offensive)

Heh, I found it hilarious. :o

[Darthphere]

yeah, montoya's character development has been handled very respectfully. she's been around for a long time and each of her major characteristics have progressed fairly organically. i don't feel like DC is hitting us over the head with PC-bull****e by making her a hispanic, lesbian or now the successor to the question. they've really shown a lot of respect for the character, and while i'll certainly miss vic as the question, i'm not unhappy about renee taking over for him due to the way it was ochestrated. you can tell rucka is very fond of her.

Yeah too bad The Question has to die for Montoya to complete her unnecessary character cycle.:up:

[Manic]

Just imagine if College handled Affirmative Action the way DC does it. "I'm sorry kid, we have too many Caucasians, we're going to replace you with an ethnic minority. Don't like that? Tell you what, we'll just have your girlfriend go crazy and you can go in hiding for a while. Think of it as the 'Whiteness Protection Program'"

(PS: I this is supposed to be a joke. I hope it doesn't come a cross as offensive)
Actually, I hear-tell the Ivy League schools have a white-male quota. :oldrazz:

[The Leaguer]

Just imagine if College handled Affirmative Action the way DC does it. "I'm sorry kid, we have too many Caucasians, we're going to replace you with an ethnic minority. Don't like that? Tell you what, we'll just have your girlfriend go crazy and you can go in hiding for a while. Think of it as the 'Whiteness Protection Program'"

(PS: I this is supposed to be a joke. I hope it doesn't come a cross as offensive)
As a Mexican American, I am extremely offended by that.

That is exactly how colleges should be run.

[Kitsune]

As a Mexican American, I am extremely offended by that.

That is exactly how colleges should be run.

Actually I meant to say "We have to shoot you in the head and replace you with an ethnic minority."

[Manic]

Actually I meant to say "We have to shoot you in the head and replace you with an ethnic minority."
What's another dead cracka?