The Official '52' Thread

[BrianWilly]

But that talking chimp who solves mysteries in your pic does?As far as the comic universe goes? Yeah. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. There are basic common sense principles to follow when reading about any fictional universe. There are talking monkeys, flying men, and alien invaders, but being killed by a lab accident still works like being killed by a lab accident. There are exceptions, but that's all they are: exceptions. Not the rule. That's like saying, "Hey, I know some people who got hit by cars and survived, so now getting hit by cars is safe for everyone!"

[Eros]

As far as the comic universe goes? Yeah. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. There are basic common sense principles to follow when reading about any fictional universe. There are talking monkeys, flying men, and alien invaders, but being killed by a lab accident still works like being killed by a lab accident. There are exceptions, but that's all they are: exceptions. Not the rule. That's like saying, "Hey, I know some people who got hit by cars and survived, so now getting hit by cars is safe for everyone!"


COMIC Books are Fake LOL! Why is this so hard to understand?:huh: You cannot say super smart talking monkey makes sense, but a dude gaining powers in a Lab accident 100 percent of time does not. Phantasy fiction does not work like that, everything can be made to happen how the writer wants. Thier are no real rules in comics, the only limitations is the writer, and their aren't many writers with small imaginations in comics. You need to wake up and realize their are no real rules in fiction, Batman should a wrinkled old man, but he is not. Jason Todd should be a corpse in the ground, but he is not. Why is this, because in DC fiction, a super powered boy can change reality by punching on an invisble wall.

[Manic]

I think you're all missing the point, here. Getting in a lab accident doesn't always give you superpowers. It's not a guaranteed result. Pre-Crisis Luthor was in a lab accident, and all it did was make his hair fall out.

[Eros]

I think you're all missing the point, here. Getting in a lab accident doesn't always give you superpowers. It's not a guaranteed result. Pre-Crisis Luthor was in a lab accident, and all it did was make his hair fall out.

Did it kill Him? No it did not, but you are right, but if the writers wanted to give Luthor powers, he would of gotten them. That is the nature of fiction, not reality,but science fiction. Luthor could of been turned into a Tall black woman if they wanted to do that, because they can.

[WompuM]

This argument is going to make my head explode. Maybe if I go stand in a lab when it happens someone stnading net to me will gain powers far greater than ordinary mortals.

[Manic]

I wasn't arguing the nature of fiction or the flow of logic in comic books. I was just saying that lab accidents don't always give you superpowers.

Point: Lex Luthor need only get in a lab accident to gain super-powers.
Counter-Point: The first time he did that, it just made his hair fall out.

I've said my piece.

[Eros]

Anyway, back to 52.

[The Question]

COMIC Books are Fake LOL! Why is this so hard to understand?:huh: You cannot say super smart talking monkey makes sense, but a dude gaining powers in a Lab accident 100 percent of time does not.

Yes, actually, we can. It's sopmething called a base assumption: From the start, the story is assuming super inteligent talking chimps are a possibility. Going from there, what's the logical conclusion of things? Well, most likely, he'd become a medical and pop culture odity for several years, and eventually people would stop caring and movie on to the next big thing. Now, if our base assumption is going to be that every single lab accident results in super powers 100% of the time, then what is the logical conclusion? Well, Madam Currie wouldn't have died, but would have become radioactive woman. Benjamin Franklin probably would have gained electric powers. Every animal ever tested on in a lab would have become a "super pet" instead of dying. The government would probably have agents standing at the door of ever science lab in the country, so if something goes wrong the people there can be taken in for study and evaluation. Also, the agents would probably be there to insure that the scientists don't intentionally screw up their experiments to get powers, since intentionally getting powers like that would probably be illegal. Pretty much every animal rights activist or gang banger who was looking for drugs would have super powers, since all they'd need to do is go into a science lab and smash stuff up.

Now, have any of these things happened in the DCU? No. Madam Currie still got cancer, lab animals still get severely ****ed up, and lab accidents still kill people. Also, I do have an example of this: In Animal Man. An animal rights group set a chemical testing lab on fire. As a result, two security gaurds died.

Phantasy fiction does not work like that, everything can be made to happen how the writer wants.

Yes, it can. But that diesn't mean it should. If it did happen like that, everything would be a cluster **** of random ideas that would make no sense.

Thier are no real rules in comics, the only limitations is the writer, and their aren't many writers with small imaginations in comics.

And the limitation of making good, logical stories that make sense. If the story doesn't make sense, then it's not very good.

You need to wake up and realize their are no real rules in fiction, Batman should a wrinkled old man, but he is not. Jason Todd should be a corpse in the ground, but he is not. Why is this, because in DC fiction, a super powered boy can change reality by punching on an invisble wall.

And yet I am constantly talking about the gaytarded-ness of Emobo Prime's retcon punches.

[Tropico]

Thank God it's Wednesday and the new issue comes out today!:O

[The Leaguer]

Oh, wow, has it been a month since the last one already?

[Tropico]

These arguments sure make it seem like so!:o

[BrianWilly]

COMIC Books are Fake LOL! Why is this so hard to understand?:huh: You cannot say super smart talking monkey makes sense, but a dude gaining powers in a Lab accident 100 percent of time does not. Phantasy fiction does not work like that, everything can be made to happen how the writer wants. Thier are no real rules in comics, the only limitations is the writer, and their aren't many writers with small imaginations in comics. You need to wake up and realize their are no real rules in fiction, Batman should a wrinkled old man, but he is not. Jason Todd should be a corpse in the ground, but he is not. Why is this, because in DC fiction, a super powered boy can change reality by punching on an invisble wall.Except that the story tells us that monkey can talk, and it doesn't tell us that people gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. In fact, the story universe explicitly tells us that people don't gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. So already the argument is over; there's a talking monkey, but lab accidents are still not guaranteed to give anyone powers. That's the story.

Saying that "this is comics and writers can do anything they want so anything can happen" is amongst the more retarded things anyone could say in a case like this. Yes, technically that's true; writers will do what they want. It also has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. By that logic, Superman could sprout tentacles tomorrow and rape Lex Luthor into submission and we should all just shrug and say, "Well, this is comics, so it's believable LoL."

You're talking about the creators of the universe having their whims and doing what they want with their fiction. Everyone else is talking about the setup of this fictional universe and how things work within the fiction. There are ground rules for any fictional universe, just as there is canon, and the metaphysics, or whatever else you want to call it. Or else someone can just say "WONDER WOMAN SHOOTS FREEZE RAYS FROM HER EYES" and follow it up with "'Cause this is just comics!" and expect people to nod politely and agree.

And when even a writer oversteps those ground rules and makes things that are too far-fetched and implausible and contrived for the universe's setups, it's considered sloppy writing. Or did you just sleep through everyone in this entire forum having the biggest collective hissy fit in history over Superboy-Prime's emo punches? The setup of the DCU is that it's "Our modern world, but with fantastic elements." The setup of the DCU is not "Our modern world, and LOL GODDAMN PURPLE EXPLODING BABIES EVERYWHERE FCK YOU LOGIC." Everything in the universe is still explained to within the groundwork of the universe. You cannot say "This is the DCU, so lab accident never kill people" because that's not explained within the groundwork of the universe, and in fact contradicts a lot of it. It makes no sense under any context.

[sethcohen]

pwnd

[LouFerignoDemon]

Except that the story tells us that monkey can talk, and it doesn't tell us that people gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. In fact, the story universe explicitly tells us that people don't gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. So already the argument is over; there's a talking monkey, but lab accidents are still not guaranteed to give anyone powers. That's the story.

Saying that "this is comics and writers can do anything they want so anything can happen" is amongst the more retarded things anyone could say in a case like this. Yes, technically that's true; writers will do what they want. It also has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. By that logic, Superman could sprout tentacles tomorrow and rape Lex Luthor into submission and we should all just shrug and say, "Well, this is comics, so it's believable LoL."

You're talking about the creators of the universe having their whims and doing what they want with their fiction. Everyone else is talking about the setup of this fictional universe and how things work within the fiction. There are ground rules for any fictional universe, just as there is canon, and the metaphysics, or whatever else you want to call it. Or else someone can just say "WONDER WOMAN SHOOTS FREEZE RAYS FROM HER EYES" and follow it up with "'Cause this is just comics!" and expect people to nod politely and agree.

And when even a writer oversteps those ground rules and makes things that are too far-fetched and implausible and contrived for the universe's setups, it's considered sloppy writing. Or did you just sleep through everyone in this entire forum having the biggest collective hissy fit in history over Superboy-Prime's emo punches? The setup of the DCU is that it's "Our modern world, but with fantastic elements." The setup of the DCU is not "Our modern world, and LOL GODDAMN PURPLE EXPLODING BABIES EVERYWHERE FCK YOU LOGIC." Everything in the universe is still explained to within the groundwork of the universe. You cannot say "This is the DCU, so lab accident never kill people" because that's not explained within the groundwork of the universe, and in fact contradicts a lot of it. It makes no sense under any context.


Technicalities make horrible arguments. Rapists and murderers need those, not everyday people.

Juuuust thought I'd add that.

[batnkevlar]

I like the term "cluster****"...

[WompuM]

lex luthor: owned.

[The Comedian]

I don't know if this has been posted here, but I saw this posted somewhere else. Don't read if you don't want to be spoiled.

In March 07's column of DC nation they stated "This column is a clue!" With an enlarged 52 above it. You subtract 5-2, you get 3. You take the first letter of every third word in the bolded column and you get...

THE SECRET OF FIFTY TWO IS THAT THE MULTIVERSE STILL EXISTS

[batnkevlar]

Yup, old news... we already know...

[The Comedian]

Ok then, nevermind

[Eros]

Except that the story tells us that monkey can talk, and it doesn't tell us that people gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. In fact, the story universe explicitly tells us that people don't gain powers in lab accidents 100 percent of the time. So already the argument is over; there's a talking monkey, but lab accidents are still not guaranteed to give anyone powers. That's the story.

Saying that "this is comics and writers can do anything they want so anything can happen" is amongst the more retarded things anyone could say in a case like this. Yes, technically that's true; writers will do what they want. It also has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. By that logic, Superman could sprout tentacles tomorrow and rape Lex Luthor into submission and we should all just shrug and say, "Well, this is comics, so it's believable LoL."

You're talking about the creators of the universe having their whims and doing what they want with their fiction. Everyone else is talking about the setup of this fictional universe and how things work within the fiction. There are ground rules for any fictional universe, just as there is canon, and the metaphysics, or whatever else you want to call it. Or else someone can just say "WONDER WOMAN SHOOTS FREEZE RAYS FROM HER EYES" and follow it up with "'Cause this is just comics!" and expect people to nod politely and agree.

And when even a writer oversteps those ground rules and makes things that are too far-fetched and implausible and contrived for the universe's setups, it's considered sloppy writing. Or did you just sleep through everyone in this entire forum having the biggest collective hissy fit in history over Superboy-Prime's emo punches? The setup of the DCU is that it's "Our modern world, but with fantastic elements." The setup of the DCU is not "Our modern world, and LOL GODDAMN PURPLE EXPLODING BABIES EVERYWHERE FCK YOU LOGIC." Everything in the universe is still explained to within the groundwork of the universe. You cannot say "This is the DCU, so lab accident never kill people" because that's not explained within the groundwork of the universe, and in fact contradicts a lot of it. It makes no sense under any context.


One more time, you seem to not understand, your "argument" is
Ridiculous because at the end of the day its all
Fake! FANTASY! IMPOSSIBLE!

You wrote a 4 paragraph Essay explaining to me why a talking mystery solving monkey makes sense, but everyone getting powers from lab accidents does not.:huh:
Batman beating superman, people on Krypton speaking perfect english, Dogs with super powers,glasses as a disguise,time traveling robots who kill people,age old wizards granting kids super powers,an organzation of interstellar Galactic guardians, and Infinite crisis to name a very small few. None of these things make any sense, but we don't mind most of the time.

Because its Fake!Fiction!Anything goes!

[The Question]

You're really not getting it, are you? No matter how fictional stories are, they need to have some kind of logic to them or else they're just a cluster **** of random ideas that make no sense.

[GoldenAgeHero]

bah this issue(40) was pretty damn underwehlming.

[Eros]

You're really not getting it, are you? No matter how fictional stories are, they need to have some kind of logic to them or else they're just a cluster **** of random ideas that make no sense.

I never said anything about not "makeing sense", I said impossibles things will happen. You cannot say one impossible thing makes more sense then the other. Thats like asking me what is more possible "Galactus" or the "Silver surfer".

[Anubis]

bah this issue(40) was pretty damn underwehlming.


Yeah, they were pretty great weren't they.

[The Question]

I never said anything about not "makeing sense", I said impossibles things will happen. You cannot say one impossible thing makes more sense then the other. Thats like asking me what is more possible "Galactus" or the "Silver surfer".

Yes, you can. Since it has been stated within the DC universe that 100% of lab accidents do not result in super powers, but in fact a very small number that's probably close to one half of one percent do, and since no stories have ever adressed the obvious reprecussions of 100% of all lab accidents resulting in super powers, then it can be said that having a story within the DCU that states that every single lab accident that has ever happened resulted in super powers makes absolutely no ****ing sense.

[Eros]

Yes, you can. Since it has been stated within the DC universe that 100% of lab accidents do not result in super powers, but in fact a very small number that's probably close to one half of one percent do, and since no stories have ever adressed the obvious reprecussions of 100% of all lab accidents resulting in super powers, then it can be said that having a story within the DCU that states that every single lab accident that has ever happened resulted in super powers makes absolutely no ****ing sense.

This can be easily changed, have super-boy prime change reality once more. Lets agree to disagree, this discussion is getting redundant. I think in not imposssible for all lab accidents in comics to give people super powers, if the staff wanted this ofcourse.

I have said my peace.

[batnkevlar]

That's not the point, the point is you said that luthor could have given himself powers earlier on in his career...

[The Question]

This can be easily changed, have super-boy prime change reality once more.

Which would be stupid because that was a stupid idea in the first place. Plus, they'd still have to deal with the obvious reprecussions of such a change, thus fundamentally altering the very nature of the DCU. Which, in the long run, would be really ****ing stupid.

[Eros]

That's not the point, the point is you said that luthor could have given himself powers earlier on in his career...

Why is this concept so hard to beleive:huh:? If they wanted to give him powers, they would of found way to give him powers in the comics years ago. Just like how they did in 52 recently.

Thats all I will say.

[The Question]

Why is this concept so hard to beleive:huh:? If they wanted to give him powers, they would of found way to give him powers in the comics years ago. Just like how they did in 52 recently.

Thats all I will say.

Yes, the writers could have. But that doesn't mean that it would have been easy for Luthor, as a character, to get powers any time, which is what you origionally said. He still had to work for what he got.

[Assassin]

bah this issue(40) was pretty damn underwehlming.

I loved seeing John in his old original costume, and then still kicking ass without it, even with a hole in his rib cage.

[BrianWilly]

One more time, you seem to not understand, your "argument" is
Ridiculous because at the end of the day its all
Fake! FANTASY! IMPOSSIBLE!

You wrote a 4 paragraph Essay explaining to me why a talking mystery solving monkey makes sense, but everyone getting powers from lab accidents does not.:huh:
Batman beating superman, people on Krypton speaking perfect english, Dogs with super powers,glasses as a disguise,time traveling robots who kill people,age old wizards granting kids super powers,an organzation of interstellar Galactic guardians, and Infinite crisis to name a very small few. None of these things make any sense, but we don't mind most of the time.

Because its Fake!Fiction!Anything goes!I know I'm wasting my time on your obvious inability to listen and shockingly blunt stubbornness, but frankly I don't care so much; idiocy on this level has to be answered, at least just so other people can see it being answered, especially since this isn't even the first time I've heard this sort of thinking from someone here.

Here's the short version: talking monkey makes sense because a writer put it into a story, and explained it (Fountain of Youth gave him intelligence). 100% non-lethal, superpower-granting lab accidents don't make sense because not only did no writer ever write it into a story, it also directly contradicts things that were already in stories.

There. That's really all that needs to be said; you're already wrong, and you either don't even see it or can't even admit it. You saying that Lex Luthor can just cause lab accidents and create superpowers all the time -- and then getting indignant when people don't believe you, no less -- is roughly comparable to me saying that touching Superman's cape will give you alien AIDS. Both have the exact same amount of evidence from the comics, which is absolutely none.

Do you even notice that every "example" you gave of things that don't make sense in fakey comic books are things that have actually already happened and been explained? They have evidence from the comics, because the comics clearly shows them happening! Do you even understand why none of those are comparable to your hypothetical lab accidents, which have neither happened nor ever even remotely alluded to happening? Well, of course you don't; if you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You've got a bunch of instances of events that have already happened, and then you're presenting an instance of this event that never happened, and -- for some reason I can't comprehend -- you're treating them both the same way. Well, the problem is that you can't define a fictional universe by things that might or could happen, the only logical way you can define it is by things that already have happened.

You do understand that when we're talking about something in the comics being "believable," we're not actually talking about them being believable in real life, right? You do understand that we're talking about how believable it is within the fictional universe? Suspension of belief in fiction means that you suspend belief for outlandish information that you are given. It does not mean that you yourself make up outlandish information and then treat it as true. You're utterly shocked that people are treating your "Fake!Fiction!Anything goes" universe with realism, and yet you're the one who invented a completely unfounded and unsupported fact of the universe and started to implement it as if it were part of the canon? No, just...no. Because that's all this lab accident superpower nonsense actually is: an invention. Could it happen? Sure, if someone was stupid enough to insert such an illogical notion into the fiction. But it didn't happen. No writer ever did that. So it's not canon. It could happen someday, it might...but it didn't.

Yes, immerse yourself with a little thing we like to call "canon." Honestly, I can't imagine how you ever managed to follow any fictional universe if you could just make up anything you like about it and treat it as a part of the story.

[Eros]

I loved seeing John in his old original costume, and then still kicking ass without it, even with a hole in his rib cage.

Didn't he get beaten up?

[LouFerignoDemon]

I never said anything about not "makeing sense", I said impossibles things will happen. You cannot say one impossible thing makes more sense then the other. Thats like asking me what is more possible "Galactus" or the "Silver surfer".


Yes, yes you can.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know I'm wasting my time on your obvious inability to listen and shockingly blunt stubbornness, but frankly I don't care so much; idiocy on this level has to be answered, at least just so other people can see it being answered, especially since this isn't even the first time I've heard this sort of thinking from someone here.

Here's the short version: talking monkey makes sense because a writer put it into a story, and explained it (Fountain of Youth gave him intelligence). 100% non-lethal, superpower-granting lab accidents don't make sense because not only did no writer ever write it into a story, it also directly contradicts things that were already in stories.




Actually, the short version would have been that the fountain has magical qualities that extend beyond scientific reach, and makes sense in that fashion.

Where lab accidents fall within scientific realms, and science says that if you blast a human with raw energy, the same thing will always happen, they just get injured or burned. And if there is enough energy to fundamentally alter DNA, it's usually so much, that it kills the human.

[BrianWilly]

Still, you do have to make allowances for the fact that sometimes, in this universe, people do get superpowers from lab accidents.

Sometimes. Not all the time. And not nearly even most of the time. And you can even think about it logically, in terms of the real world, and it would still make sense. Not all lab experiments are created equal. People use different techniques, experiment on different things, make different calculations, and people being people they even make different mistakes all the time result in different accidents. And when you throw in the pseudoscience of the DCU, of course not every one of them is going to have the same exact result. That's borderline common sense.

but loL hay its jsut cOm1cs s0 anYt1hgn ca nhApen we d0nt ned 2 tink aubot ti

The only thing that defines the groundrules of fiction is what the writers present to us. Anything else is fanfiction. Someday, someone might even create a fictional universe where every single lab accident automatically just grants super powers, and since that's the literary setup of the universe we then accept that it happens in that universe, even if we don't necessarily like it. This is not that universe.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know, and I won't say we shouldn't say lab accidents could potentially cause that rarely. I'm just saying, we could easily say one is more logical than the other through that explanation.

[Varient]

Artificial Hand?

Did I miss Something?

[Assassin]

Didn't he get beaten up?

It doesnt count if the other guy has powers, and you have a hole in your side, but you're standing at the end and he isnt :o


when did he get a robo hand?

[Colossal Spoons]

The next time we see Irons after Lex rips off his hand...he's still got it :huh::p

I thought this issue was damn good(of course, since GAH didn't like it). And I'm guessing Osiris becomes the new Cap Jr and Black Adam goes back to bein a bad guy.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

The next time we see Irons after Lex rips off his hand...he's still got it :huh::p
.Yeah, that was pretty clumsy of artist and editors.

[Tropico]

The next time we see Irons after Lex rips off his hand...he's still got it :huh::p

I thought this issue was damn good(of course, since GAH didn't like it). And I'm guessing Osiris becomes the new Cap Jr and Black Adam goes back to bein a bad guy.

What? When he's prone in on the floor? 'Cause all the other panels show him sans the hand.:confused:

[The Question]

I have a question: Why the hell were the police carting Mercy off? While they may have found otherwise during an investigation, Steel and The Titans were the only ones obviously breaking the law at that time, what with all the seemingly random breaking and entering and destruction of both public and private property.

[Tropico]

I have a question: Why the hell were the police carting Mercy off? While they may have found otherwise during an investigation, Steel and The Titans were the only ones obviously breaking the law at that time, what with all the seemingly random breaking and entering and destruction of both public and private property.

It was probably after showing them the evidence Natasha gathered with the bugs.:o

[The Question]

It was probably after showing them the evidence Natasha gathered with the bugs.:o

Except all of the evidence from the bugs was circumstantial at best. And in any event, they wouldn't arrest Mercy and Lex right away. First, they'd probably arrest Steel and The Titans, then go over the evidence, and then arrest Lex and Mercy.

[Tropico]

Except all of the evidence from the bugs was circumstantial at best. And in any event, they wouldn't arrest Mercy and Lex right away. First, they'd probably arrest Steel and The Titans, then go over the evidence, and then arrest Lex and Mercy.

C'mon! Not another 2 page debate/b!t¢hfest over one small detail, please?!:cmad: It's comics! Suspend. Disbelief. Do you have anything else to say about the comic or did that minor detail ruin the whole thing for you and it's all you can talk about?:(

[The Question]

C'mon! Not another 2 page debate/b!t¢hfest over one small detail, please?!:cmad:

Only two posts and you're already expecting a two page ***** fest? My, aren't we pessimistic today?

It's comics! Suspend. Disbelief.

I don't want to. I'm allowed to be confused by/dislike something/question something in a comic, you know.

Do you have anything else to say about the comic or did that minor detail ruin the whole thing for you and it's all you can talk about?:(

Again, only two posts. I think someone's overreacting just a bit.

[Colossal Spoons]

What? When he's prone in on the floor? 'Cause all the other panels show him sans the hand.:confused:

Yeah, he's w/o his hand except for the shot of him on his hands and knees after Lex rips it off. It's a small error, just one I thought was funny.

[Tropico]

Only two posts and you're already expecting a two page ***** fest? My, aren't we pessimistic today?

I don't want to. I'm allowed to be confused by/dislike something/question something in a comic, you know.

Again, only two posts. I think someone's overreacting just a bit.

See, if it was any other poster I would have said "You're right, man, I apologize for flying of the handle.:o". But since it's you, and we can all see how you dissected just ONE reply to your post, I won't; because I know how you operate. Case in point: you didn't answer my last question, you just had reinstate your "overreacting" comment.

[Tropico]

Yeah, he's w/o his hand except for the shot of him on his hands and knees after Lex rips it off. It's a small error, just one I thought was funny.

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure it was that one and not something else since at first it looked like it might have been a mis-colored bloodstain. Oops!:o

[The Question]

See, if it was any other poster I would have said "You're right, man, I apologize for flying of the handle.:o". But since it's you, and we can all see how you dissected just ONE reply to your post, I won't; because I know how you operate.

You know, that really hurts my feelings.

Case in point: you didn't answer my last question, you just had reinstate your "overreacting" comment.

How is it reinstanting it if I only said it once?


But fine: I thought the issue was alright overall, if not a tad rushed and someone formulaic.

[TheCorpulent1]

When the hell did John Henry go all Luke Skywalker?

[Tropico]

I think he had the stump as the beginning of 52 but I haven't found any place that says why.:(

[BrianWilly]

People on another board are saying that he lost it during Morrison's JLA World War III. But I remember that event pretty well and I don't recall an instance where Steel lost his hand in it; you'd think that'd be a pretty big deal and everything.

[Assassin]

hmmm, wiki maybe?

[The Question]

I'm pretty sure The General bit his hand off. or crushed it. Or something.

[Colossal Spoons]

I can't wait for Natasha to put back on her black armor, that **** looks tight.


BTW, what has Woner Woman been up to during 52?

[Darthphere]

Except all of the evidence from the bugs was circumstantial at best. And in any event, they wouldn't arrest Mercy and Lex right away. First, they'd probably arrest Steel and The Titans, then go over the evidence, and then arrest Lex and Mercy.

Simple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_Cause

[LouFerignoDemon]

Only two posts and you're already expecting a two page ***** fest? My, aren't we pessimistic today?



I don't want to. I'm allowed to be confused by/dislike something/question something in a comic, you know.



Again, only two posts. I think someone's overreacting just a bit.

Because people like you and I are more than happy to turn it into something big.

[LouFerignoDemon]

And probable cause kind of isn't just that easy.

Probable cause is great and all, but there isn't enough probable cause at the immediate moment.

Like Question kind of said. Cops contain immediate situation, THEN take care of everything else. And since it's obvious that Steel was the aggressor, they arrest him, take his testimony, gather evidence, THEN go after Lex.

Unless police worked like superhero's, and just did as they pleased.

[BrianWilly]

Maybe they just played the odds. Is it more likely for Steel -- former JLA member and respected scientist -- to have caused this sht, or is it more likely for Luthor -- who's been accused of more crimes than they have names for and just somehow magically been absolved of all of them -- to have done it? The police are required to follow rules. They are not required to follow them stupidly.

Also, Natasha Irons was being held hostage, and Steel has evidence of that from the message Luthor sent him (which, now that you think about it, was ridiculously stupid of Luthor). He, or any one of the Titans, could have sent that to the police before they left. If they were smart, they would have, so when the police got there they were fully prepared to arrest Luthor anyway.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Maybe they just played the odds. Is it more likely for Steel -- former JLA member and respected scientist -- to have caused this sht, or is it more likely for Luthor -- who's been accused of more crimes than they have names for and just somehow magically been absolved of all of them -- to have done it? The police are required to follow rules. They are not required to follow them stupidly.

Also, Natasha Irons was being held hostage, and Steel has evidence of that from the message Luthor sent him (which, now that you think about it, was ridiculously stupid of Luthor). He, or any one of the Titans, could have sent that to the police before they left. If they were smart, they would have, so when the police got there they were fully prepared to arrest Luthor anyway.

Luthor currently has a good reputation, as well as spreading superhuman wealth to the populace, and creating a team to fill in the role of the JLA at the moment. So while Steel has a nice and bright reputation (though you can say it's tarnished by the fact that Luthor's hero's have been forcing themselves onto older heros' turf, and that would cause Steel to become jealous, and possibly outraged), Luthor isn't exactly public enemy number one any longer.

However, you did say police are meant to follow rules. If they decided to go ahead and just do as they please instead of following said rules, they can lose their jobs, any and all charges against Luthor could be permanantly dropped, and Steel will go on (courtesy of Lex Luthor) as the prime example why his heros were probably better, because the old ones were filled with pride, and willing to lie (courtesy of him utilizing the neice as a nice little sheep) to make people seem like bad guys, only to make heros look like average humans with larger egos courtesy of their powers, and then push the idea of his program even higher due to it.

The police couldn't possibly know that Natasha was being held hostage prior to this, and if Steel really wanted the police to be involved, he wouldn't be so stupid to do things that rash, seeing how he is something of a high intellect, and would know that his actions only threatened his neices life further by doing things this way.

If they were smart, they WOULD have contacted the police like you said. And then, with the police's blessing, ripped down the building. But I'm going to go with that Steel wasn't thinking all too hard at that point in time.

So I guess you're trying to say that they would have arrested Luthor? (Just assuming, though you may just be adding) The answer would still be no.

[BrianWilly]

Luthor currently has a good reputation, as well as spreading superhuman wealth to the populace, and creating a team to fill in the role of the JLA at the moment. So while Steel has a nice and bright reputation (though you can say it's tarnished by the fact that Luthor's hero's have been forcing themselves onto older heros' turf, and that would cause Steel to become jealous, and possibly outraged), Luthor isn't exactly public enemy number one any longer.We know what a portion of the public thinks of Luthor. There's not really any evidence that the majority of the public thinks the same, as far as I'm aware. And especially after New Year's Eve, thousands of Luthor's men and women fell from the skies and caused widespread disaster, I don't see how a simple "Oh, it wasn't me, officers" would just magically settle everyone down. Public opinion sways quickly after disasters, as we well know by now.

And there's absolutely no evidence at all that the police force has been swayed by Luthor's guile. For all we know, they've been suspicious of him right from the outset and have been waiting for just this opportunity to take him in; after all, these are the people who have had to see him arrested over and over and over again throughout the course of the years...we're to assume that they just smiled and nodded and believed him just because he said he turned over a new leaf? Rucka certainly wrote the Metropolis PD as having more sense than that. It's not the public's job to be suspicious, but it is theirs. And the events of New Year's Eve should have heightened their suspicions tenfold. That is, if they're doing their jobs right and following the rules.

However, you did say police are meant to follow rules. If they decided to go ahead and just do as they please instead of following said rules, they can lose their jobs, any and all charges against Luthor could be permanantly dropped, and Steel will go on (courtesy of Lex Luthor) as the prime example why his heros were probably better, because the old ones were filled with pride, and willing to lie (courtesy of him utilizing the neice as a nice little sheep) to make people seem like bad guys, only to make heros look like average humans with larger egos courtesy of their powers, and then push the idea of his program even higher due to it.Maybe that's exactly what will happen. It was certainly what he was planning. But it's going to take a lot to weasel out of the message he sent to Steel -- which included video, no less! -- of him plainly holding a half-dead teenage girl hostage. And then there's the half-eaten corpse of one of his own Everymen stuffed in a lab.

I don't see what that has to do with the police following the rules, though. If they felt that Luthor was the responsible party and had reasonable evidence supporting so, then they can just arrest him just to be safe and deal with the fallout later. An arrest doesn't automatically mean someone's guilty, despite what the Marvel universe would have you believe, it just means you're being charged with a crime. Officers having to follow their own instincts and make important decisions based on nothing more than a whim is certainly nothing new. If later it appears that Luthor actually was innocent and Steel and the Titans did attack him without provocation, then the police just let Luthor go and arrest the others. Simple as that, no lasting harm done. It's not as if there's never been a false or mistaken arrest made in the history of the country before. It's certainly not going to cost anyone their jobs. And considering this is Luthor, I doubt anyone's going to blame them for playing it safe.

The police couldn't possibly know that Natasha was being held hostage prior to this, and if Steel really wanted the police to be involved, he wouldn't be so stupid to do things that rash, seeing how he is something of a high intellect, and would know that his actions only threatened his neices life further by doing things this way.

If they were smart, they WOULD have contacted the police like you said. And then, with the police's blessing, ripped down the building. But I'm going to go with that Steel wasn't thinking all too hard at that point in time.I don't see why contacting the police beforehand is such a bad idea. Any one of the Titans could have done it, even if Steel didn't. "We received this message from Lex Luthor and we have a hostage situation, you might want to send down some people to deal with the aftermath." That kind of stuff happens all the time; for instance, the Titans contacted the police to keep their people back when they fought Dr. Light, Batman tips off the police as basic procedure, and Superman himself kept regular contact with Metropolis PD captains and lieutenants. Or are we to assume that the heroes of the DCU have absolutely no system in place to deal with the police and everyone just sort of plays it by ear?

And how would contacting the police threaten Natasha's life, exactly? Steel was already planning to invade Luthor's building anyway.
So I guess you're trying to say that they would have arrested Luthor? (Just assuming, though you may just be adding) The answer would still be no.Actually, we don't even know if they did arrest Luthor...the last we saw him, he was laying down, ah, "resting." I'm saying that if they did arrest Luthor and we're being so nitpicky as to say it wouldn't have happened, there's just as many more nitpicks and extraneous circumstances we can cite for it to have happened.

[Tropico]

Police were already on the scene as noted in the evacuation of the building at the beginning of the comic. There's a time span between E-Man's death, Steel's fight with Luthor which frees Natasha and finally Steel beating Luthor up after Luthor was depowered.

Luthor started with a good image which was horribly tarnished on New Year's Eve. The heroes made the comment that Luthor had turned the phrase "Look, up in the sky." from wonder and merriment into pure horror. So, as far as Week 40 is concerned Luthor's image is very questionable if not downright terrible considering many of the people that had gotten powers were part of families. Even if they didn't know that Luthor was responsible they would still resent him.

Given that we know that some time had gone by between fights, the Titans were done with their opponents while Steel was still fighting and they were with law enforcement officers while he was giving Luthor the final off panel beating, isn't it it MORE than plausible that the Titans had given the police just cause to arrest people like Luthor's bodyguard? Damn me for getting involved in this stupid argument!:cmad:

[BrianWilly]

And really, all it would take is one commanding officer to make the call. Not every police officer on the scene has to agree with who they're arresting; you just need the most important officer there to think so. If he/she is mistaken, then he/she takes the fallout. All other officers were just doing their jobs.

[BrianWilly]

Police were already on the scene as noted in the evacuation of the building at the beginning of the comicFrom their uniforms, I think that was Lexcorp personnel, though.

[Kebab gud]

BTW, what has Woner Woman been up to during 52?

EMOing and working undercover as Agent Diana Prince of the Metahuman Task Force

[BrianWilly]

Actually, she shouldn't have become Agent Diana Prince yet, since that has to happen after Bruce becomes Batman again (he's the one who sets her up with it) and after Donna becomes Wonder Woman (which will happen during WW3). We'll see her next week, though, judging from the cover.

[Kebab gud]

ok then .. just EMOing

[BrianWilly]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=100913

5.2 (or so) ABOUT 52 #40 WITH MICHAEL SIGLAIN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ready…

FIGHT!

Oh, come on – this week’s 52 from DC was just the first of many climaxes that are going to be coming up in the series, and it was a slobberknocker. John Herny Irons vs. Lex Luthor – and that picture on the cover of Irons standing victorious?

Well, it’s not there just because it’s pretty. It also implies how things ended up. Well, minus the armor.

And left hand.

Anyway…on with our weekly Q&A with Editor Michael Siglain.

Newsarama: First off - the title, “Man Ain’t Nothing But a Man”...from the John Henry song, right?

Michael Siglain: Good eye. Yes, the title of this issue - Man Ain't Nothing But A Man” - comes from the song about John Henry, the famous African-American folk hero. His story--like John Henry Irons' story--is both an inspirational and moral one, about man verses technology. The title is taken from this quote, "A man, he ain't nothing but a man, Before I'd let that steam drill beat me down, Oh, I'd die with the hammer in my hand."

From the very beginning, the writers wanted the title of this issue to be a line from the song. Deciding upon which line would be the tricky part. At various times the issue was called "The Measure Of A Man," "Nothing But A Man," and "Got My Shoes From A Railroad Man." Story-wise, in the end, when everything is stripped away from Steel, and it's just him going up against a technologically-enhanced Luthor, John Henry "ain't nothing but a man" who’d "die with the hammer in [his] hand" before letting Luthor win.

NRAMA: Yeah – that works. Regarding Irons’ initial assault, at this point, does Mercy, Luhor's bodyguard, have brain damage? I mean - is there a hero who hasn't knocked her unconscious while trying to get to Luthor? Yet - she keeps going...

MS: Mercy's got a thick skull. Either that, or she's really a robot. Keep on reading, gang.

NRAMA: Large picture-wise, did Everyman "have" to die? It seems that when the murder is up close and personal, as his was of Jake, that they usually die, while someone like Luthor goes on and on and on...

MS: Are you suggesting that we kill off Lex Luthor? What purpose would the writers serve by killing him off? He's Superman's greatest adversary, and a major villain throughout the DCU. Plus, from a story standpoint, we've already seen him One Year Later, so he's safe.

NRAMA: Sure – Luthor’s safe, exactly, but someone like Everyman – his “crime” – killing Jake, and being a total sleeze was so up close and personal. It seems when villains are like that, they’re on the short track to…deathville.

MS: As for Everyman, there are some who would argue that he got just what was coming to him. He was a murderer who fell to his death. Of course, there are others who would argue that just because he was a cold-blooded killer doesn't mean that he deserved to die. That's a subjective argument. Dealer's choice on this one.

NRAMA: Oh, and for those who didn’t catch or understand it last week - Planet Lexor? You want to explain that to the kids?

MS: Many of you out there already got the wink and the smile to the Silver Age, but for those of you who didn’t, Planet Lexor refers to a planet that was named in honor of Luthor, where Lex is the hero and Superman is the villain. It’s a world where Superman has no powers, due to the fact that the planet revolves around a red sun. In Superman #164 by Edmond Hamilton and Curt Swan we get the first appearance of Lexor—though it isn’t officially named at the time—and, as in 52 week 40, we get to see Lex take down some with an “S” on his chest in a story that revolves around technology. But unlike week 40, in Superman #164 hero and villain work together to help save an entire planet. Plus, Lex and Superman take off their shirts and duke it out. Take a look:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/WAcker/Week40/Superman164.jpg

NRAMA: Mmmm…back in the day when being barrel-chested and doughy was a sign of power and virility. Back to this fight - what happens after the fight? Does Luthor go to jail? Obviously, something happened in the time span between the fight and Day 5...so...thought as to where he went and how his lawyers could get him out?

MS: What happened to Luthor? Well, we'll be filling in the gaps in the weeks to come, though we've already seen the ultimate outcome in Superman #650. Of course, there are some very important bits of information that have yet to be revealed. Check back next week...

NRAMA: Okay – over to Kahndaq - four panels...four distinct scenes, and four horsemen...are we looking at the effects of Famine, War, Pestilence and Death?

MS: Yes, Kahndaq is feeling the effects of the Four Horsemen of the Apokolips. Famine, War, Pestilence and Death are spreading throughout the lands, and the monsters behind these plagues will be in Kahndaq soon enough. And trust me, their presence will be even more disastrous. As for Osiris, he still believes himself to be the cause of Kahndaq’s suffering, but will journeying to the Rock of Eternity help his situation, or push him over the edge?

NRAMA: A quick reader’s question - is Animal Man's story over?

MS: Throwing it back to week 37, are ya? Buddy Baker's story is far from over. We'll be seeing him a lot more between now and week 52. We can't end Buddy's story with him waking up with the aliens. What kind of ending would that be? Trust me, the writers have definite plans for Animal Man.

MS: All right, gang. Since Mr. Brady went easy on the questions this week (thanks, Matt!), I thought I'd take this time to answer and address a couple of your comments. Let's dive right in, shall we?

First and foremost we have the "Montoya Fights a Dragon" line that appeared on the cover scroll to week 40. I know what you're asking: "What happened?" "Where was Montoya?" "Where was the Dragon?" "Why, oh why, must you put wrong information on your cover?" Well, here's the deal: You will see Montoya fight a dragon...but it'll be in week 41. Why the error? 'Cause the covers are done earlier than the interiors, and we had to bump the scene to the following week so we could keep our focus on the massive John Henry/Luthor fight scene.

As for "Day 5" coming after "Day 6," all I can say to that is that time is still broken. Oh, wait. My predecessor already used that one, didn't he? All right. Fine. The fact of the matter is that we goofed. Plain and simple. As always, we will try our best to not let it happen again.

That being said, let's get on with it, and get to next week's goodness.

NRAMA: Nice act of contrition. Okay - over to you for the tease...let's hit it for #41...where does the story take place?

MS: Week 41 starts and ends in the far reaches of space, though we do stop off in Nanda Parbat to visit with an old friend. Check out the cover:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/WAcker/Week40/52Cv41ds_t.jpg

MS: Things don’t seem to be getting any easier for Adam Strange and Starfire. Let’s look in on Mr. Dibny:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/WAcker/Week40/5241.p9_t.jpg

MS: Looks like Ralph is making friends fast. Wonder what Montoya is doing...

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/WAcker/Week40/5241.p5_t.jpg

MS: Guess Montoya really does fight a Dragon, in a manner of speaking. Stay tuned to see who she goes up against in the weeks to come. She just might fight a different dragon...if she can survive an encounter with the man in Black, that is (and I don’t mean Johnny Cash). And in the following weeks, the Horsemen turn up the heat, lightning strikes twice, and Fate lends a hand!

Hope you’ve all enjoyed this little Q&A. Before I go, let me leave you with this little ditty: “Put them under a microscope. I’ll bet you an audience with the man I came to see that they’re teleportation microcircuitry.” See you next week, gang. Beam me up, Scotty.

[yenaled]

Haha. Dr. Milo recognize him from BTAS & JLU actually.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I have mentioned how I like Brian in the past, oui? This is why.We know what a portion of the public thinks of Luthor. There's not really any evidence that the majority of the public thinks the same, as far as I'm aware. And especially after New Year's Eve, thousands of Luthor's men and women fell from the skies and caused widespread disaster, I don't see how a simple "Oh, it wasn't me, officers" would just magically settle everyone down. Public opinion sways quickly after disasters, as we well know by now.

And? Complete the thought.

And there's absolutely no evidence at all that the police force has been swayed by Luthor's guile. For all we know, they've been suspicious of him right from the outset and have been waiting for just this opportunity to take him in; after all, these are the people who have had to see him arrested over and over and over again throughout the course of the years...we're to assume that they just smiled and nodded and believed him just because he said he turned over a new leaf? Rucka certainly wrote the Metropolis PD as having more sense than that. It's not the public's job to be suspicious, but it is theirs. And the events of New Year's Eve should have heightened their suspicions tenfold. That is, if they're doing their jobs right and following the rules.

Still, probable, and REAL probable cause is needed at the scene. Seeing how the people fell out of the sky like a week back, that doesn't mean they can haul him in right there. Unless they wanted to lose their jobs and have Luthor get away. And like I said previously, he can easily use that to his advantage.

Unless the objective was to make things worse than they were. If the cops are truly so smart, they won't be dumb.

Maybe that's exactly what will happen. It was certainly what he was planning. But it's going to take a lot to weasel out of the message he sent to Steel -- which included video, no less! -- of him plainly holding a half-dead teenage girl hostage. And then there's the half-eaten corpse of one of his own Everymen stuffed in a lab.

Funny how Luthor's lawyers wouldn't be smart enough to consider using the idea that Irons being one of the foremost techincal buffs in the world couldn't possibly doctor a video and use a voice changer.

And really, do you think the corpse was STILL there after the breach?

Luthor is smart. Even my sister would know to have a contingency plan in place. ESPECIALLY if she was baiting someone to come over. And since Luthor was as well, I'm thinking he's not as sloppy as you're seemingly wanting him to be.

I don't see what that has to do with the police following the rules, though. If they felt that Luthor was the responsible party and had reasonable evidence supporting so, then they can just arrest him just to be safe and deal with the fallout later. An arrest doesn't automatically mean someone's guilty, despite what the Marvel universe would have you believe, it just means you're being charged with a crime. Officers having to follow their own instincts and make important decisions based on nothing more than a whim is certainly nothing new. If later it appears that Luthor actually was innocent and Steel and the Titans did attack him without provocation, then the police just let Luthor go and arrest the others. Simple as that, no lasting harm done. It's not as if there's never been a false or mistaken arrest made in the history of the country before. It's certainly not going to cost anyone their jobs. And considering this is Luthor, I doubt anyone's going to blame them for playing it safe.

Requires more proof than showing up to the crime scene, where Steel was reported to have actually forced his way in, fight a team that was at it's headquarters, and then find Steel over an unconcious Luthor.

See, I and you may think exactly whatever it is we please. Police can have every idea in the world. Evidence is the absolute fulcrum to everything in legal cases.

"Hi, I'm a Titan, and we attacked him because he had a hostage."

"Don't you think maybe you should have, I don't know, let us know or something, and then provide proof, and then let the court actually issue this warrant?"

"You know what? F*** this, we're invading him."

AND you mentioned evidence. They actually require some.

I don't see why contacting the police beforehand is such a bad idea. Any one of the Titans could have done it, even if Steel didn't. "We received this message from Lex Luthor and we have a hostage situation, you might want to send down some people to deal with the aftermath." That kind of stuff happens all the time; for instance, the Titans contacted the police to keep their people back when they fought Dr. Light, Batman tips off the police as basic procedure, and Superman himself kept regular contact with Metropolis PD captains and lieutenants. Or are we to assume that the heroes of the DCU have absolutely no system in place to deal with the police and everyone just sort of plays it by ear?

Like I said, it would be a brilliant idea. One obviously none of them thought up. If they had, then there would have been a better idea in place, like, I don't know, contacting a few more superhumans to fix this. God knows the JSA must love the Everyman project enough to decline an offer when Steel could so desperately use the support.

Steel WAS playing it by ear, and it's obvious, really. He charged in, sans any form of plan, knowing it was a baited trap. He could have easily had his neice killed for it, and still risked it. Needed the backup, but left it on the ground immensely outnumbered.

And still, once more, evidence is needed. Great, they let them know they have a hostage situation. I can see Lex turning the public against the very police department, or someone equally as smart.

"See? Heros use their influence to have the cops do what they want." Easy as that. Cops can't just assume heros are right. If they do, then the system is more corrupt than Luthor's own. They can take their words into consideration, show up, and deal with the problem, but can't pull someone in because someone else told them to.
And how would contacting the police threaten Natasha's life, exactly? Steel was already planning to invade Luthor's building anyway.
Actually, we don't even know if they did arrest Luthor...the last we saw him, he was laying down, ah, "resting." I'm saying that if they did arrest Luthor and we're being so nitpicky as to say it wouldn't have happened, there's just as many more nitpicks and extraneous circumstances we can cite for it to have happened.

No, contacting the police could have PRESERVED her life. Read what I said again, rash actions threatened her life. Because I liked how Steel, only knowing that there were no engineers in certain floors, charged through them. If I were in charge, I would have made sure that those floors were tapped and it would have detonated a bomb, killing his poor neice.

And really, there aren't more reasons to arrest him based on those little things than to not arrest him. Not at all.

[LouFerignoDemon]

And really, all it would take is one commanding officer to make the call. Not every police officer on the scene has to agree with who they're arresting; you just need the most important officer there to think so. If he/she is mistaken, then he/she takes the fallout. All other officers were just doing their jobs.

Doesn't that defeat the whole, "Cops are smart" thing? :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Whooo, term paper time :D

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know, I actually need to do my art work (since I actually made it back into school, revealing why I'm in such a good mood, and came back at all, really.)

[BrianWilly]

I like me, too. I like me a whole f'ing lot

Still, probable, and REAL probable cause is needed at the scene. Seeing how the people fell out of the sky like a week back, that doesn't mean they can haul him in right there. Unless they wanted to lose their jobs and have Luthor get away. And like I said previously, he can easily use that to his advantage.

Unless the objective was to make things worse than they were. If the cops are truly so smart, they won't be dumb.
Requires more proof than showing up to the crime scene, where Steel was reported to have actually forced his way in, fight a team that was at it's headquarters, and then find Steel over an unconcious Luthor.

See, I and you may think exactly whatever it is we please. Police can have every idea in the world. Evidence is the absolute fulcrum to everything in legal cases.

"Hi, I'm a Titan, and we attacked him because he had a hostage."

"Don't you think maybe you should have, I don't know, let us know or something, and then provide proof, and then let the court actually issue this warrant?"

"You know what? F*** this, we're invading him."

AND you mentioned evidence. They actually require some.Arresting someone without a great deal of evidence is not unheard of. Sometimes, if police were going after a known criminal, they'd charge him on minor infractions or technicalities just to get them into custody and then use that added authority to investigate him further, even if they didn't have any major evidence beforehand. Again, an arrest is not a guilty plea.

Now, Luthor's not a known criminal, but he is a suspected one. My argument is that in this instance, the police would play it by gut. Arrest Luthor on the technicality, and then deal with the fallout. Is that a flawless technique? Is it safe? Not in the least; it may very well backfire and kick them all in the ass. It's taking a leap of faith, a judgment call, and one that officers have to make all the time. Rarely is there ever that "perfect" evidence for police to nail every single criminal on...sometimes, they really do have to make do with what they've got. In this case, they might take the word of the heroes and assume that they actually have the evidence that they need, or will find it.

Like I said, it would be a brilliant idea. One obviously none of them thought up. If they had, then there would have been a better idea in place, like, I don't know, contacting a few more superhumans to fix this. God knows the JSA must love the Everyman project enough to decline an offer when Steel could so desperately use the support.

Steel WAS playing it by ear, and it's obvious, really. He charged in, sans any form of plan, knowing it was a baited trap. He could have easily had his neice killed for it, and still risked it. Needed the backup, but left it on the ground immensely outnumbered.

And still, once more, evidence is needed. Great, they let them know they have a hostage situation. I can see Lex turning the public against the very police department, or someone equally as smart.

"See? Heros use their influence to have the cops do what they want." Easy as that. Cops can't just assume heros are right. If they do, then the system is more corrupt than Luthor's own. They can take their words into consideration, show up, and deal with the problem, but can't pull someone in because someone else told them to.But see, all that comes after the arrest. Lex can do whatever he wants and try to turn public favor in whichever way after he's been arrested, but if the police want to arrest him in the first place, then they're going to arrest him. It may be a mistake to arrest him, but it's one that they chose to risk. And really, a false arrest is not the most gregarious thing in the world. The worst thing that might happen is that he gets off, and they'll just arrest him again if he steps out of line.

You're right; it would be a very corrupt system if cops just believed the heroes all the time. But that's not an argument against its likelihood; no matter how corrupt it is, it still may very well happen anyway! But here's the thing...the reason that they do believe the heroes a lot of the time is because the heroes have earned it that sort of credibility, through the heroes' own efforts at keeping justice, being true to their word, stopping the villains, and general public service...they've earned the right to be trusted. And the reason that they might not believe someone like Luthor is that he's squandered whatever credibility he might have with law enforcement over and over and over again...he's long since lost the right to be taken at face value. So is that really a corrupt system, or just something that these individuals have reaped for themselves?


Funny how Luthor's lawyers wouldn't be smart enough to consider using the idea that Irons being one of the foremost techincal buffs in the world couldn't possibly doctor a video and use a voice changer. Well with that logic, the whole world could witness Luthor eating babies over and over again and one of his lawyers could just say, "They were stuffed babies. And they're from an alternate universe. Yup." and then he'd just get off. Which, okay, granted, that sort of actually happened, but you gotta assume that there's a limit to how gullible people can actually be. There's a limit to how many times he can pull that trick and have it still fly, and a good lawyer could turn the table on that pretty easily. There's a limit to credibility. I mean, if a taped confession isn't enough to arrest someone, then what is? And really, it's probably not out of the question for a third party to be able to confirm the authenticity of the tape. Where the original source came from, for instance...police do this all the time.

And really, do you think the corpse was STILL there after the breach?I'm assuming that they didn't have time to dump a whole body. Which is a pretty large assumption, admittedly.


And really, there aren't more reasons to arrest him based on those little things than to not arrest him. Not at all.And yet, it still happens, and happens reasonably often. Again, is it safe? Not really, although in certain circumstances it could be. But we're not exactly debating the safeness or even really the intelligence of the act, here, merely the likelihood of it happening at all.

Doesn't that defeat the whole, "Cops are smart" thing? :oNah, it just means that they only need one cop to be smart, preferably one with the necessary authority. The fact that a lot of cops are smart just makes the odds better.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ooooo! This is what I like. You say the things I want you to talk about with me having to lead the argument. Your adaptive argument qualities are oh so fun.
I like me, too. I like me a whole f'ing lot


Arresting someone without a great deal of evidence is not unheard of. Sometimes, if police were going after a known criminal, they'd charge him on minor infractions or technicalities just to get them into custody and then use that added authority to investigate him further, even if they didn't have any major evidence beforehand. Again, an arrest is not a guilty plea.

See, they still require SOME evidence. A person's word isn't evidence. If it were, nobody would ever require physical evidence.

Now, Luthor's not a known criminal, but he is a suspected one. My argument is that in this instance, the police would play it by gut. Arrest Luthor on the technicality, and then deal with the fallout. Is that a flawless technique? Is it safe? Not in the least; it may very well backfire and kick them all in the ass. It's taking a leap of faith, a judgment call, and one that officers have to make all the time. Rarely is there ever that "perfect" evidence for police to nail every single criminal on...sometimes, they really do have to make do with what they've got. In this case, they might take the word of the heroes and assume that they actually have the evidence that they need, or will find it.

Seeing as this is the second time you mentioned it? What technicality?

But see, all that comes after the arrest. Lex can do whatever he wants and try to turn public favor in whichever way after he's been arrested, but if the police want to arrest him in the first place, then they're going to arrest him. It may be a mistake to arrest him, but it's one that they chose to risk. And really, a false arrest is not the most gregarious thing in the world. The worst thing that might happen is that he gets off, and they'll just arrest him again if he steps out of line.

Aaaaand, why do you think Luthor is about as smart as someone pretending to be a criminal genius?

I don't know why you're trying to make Luthor out to be a lump, but he's really not that dumb. Do you really think this is how he thought out the plan?

"Ah, I'll just lure Steel here, and beat him up, the cops will NEVER show up, and I won't need a back up plan!!! *Insert evil laughter.*"

He actually probably accounted for the cops being there, seeing how he thinks a little further ahead than most. And you know he's sure his factory is going to be investigated post the falling of all those heros anyway. If you truly think that he didn't have an idea about that, then you're truly underestimating him.
You're right; it would be a very corrupt system if cops just believed the heroes all the time. But that's not an argument against its likelihood; no matter how corrupt it is, it still may very well happen anyway! But here's the thing...the reason that they do believe the heroes a lot of the time is because the heroes have earned it that sort of credibility, through the heroes' own efforts at keeping justice, being true to their word, stopping the villains, and general public service...they've earned the right to be trusted. And the reason that they might not believe someone like Luthor is that he's squandered whatever credibility he might have with law enforcement over and over and over again...he's long since lost the right to be taken at face value. So is that really a corrupt system, or just something that these individuals have reaped for themselves?

Do I think perfect evidence exists? Sometimes, not often. Do I believe any good cop who'd like to not be accused of tampering with a case would go on having NO evidence? No.

Yes, corrupt. A corrupt system is when an outside individual influence is allowed to circumvent the blocks put in place to ensure a usually fair way of doing things, based on who they are, or what they do.


Well with that logic, the whole world could witness Luthor eating babies over and over again and one of his lawyers could just say, "They were stuffed babies. And they're from an alternate universe. Yup." and then he'd just get off. Which, okay, granted, that sort of actually happened, but you gotta assume that there's a limit to how gullible people can actually be. There's a limit to how many times he can pull that trick and have it still fly, and a good lawyer could turn the table on that pretty easily. There's a limit to credibility. I mean, if a taped confession isn't enough to arrest someone, then what is? And really, it's probably not out of the question for a third party to be able to confirm the authenticity of the tape. Where the original source came from, for instance...police do this all the time.

What you said doesn't even make sense in comparison to what I was saying.

I'm assuming that they didn't have time to dump a whole body. Which is a pretty large assumption, admittedly.

You really think out of all those powers he could generate, and all the technology he had at his disposal, one teleportation device wasn't just lying around, especially when, again, Luthor knew his factory was going to be investigated?


And yet, it still happens, and happens reasonably often. Again, is it safe? Not really, although in certain circumstances it could be. But we're not exactly debating the safeness or even really the intelligence of the act, here, merely the likelihood of it happening at all.

The likelihood is small regardless. Most cops aren't just going to up and arrest someone based on someone elses word without some, even circumstatial evidence that can be provided for reasonable doubt. Steel, again, someone who can be proven to just suffer psychological stress, is definitely not a good piece of evidence.
Nah, it just means that they only need one cop to be smart, preferably one with the necessary authority. The fact that a lot of cops are smart just makes the odds better.

One cop that's ultimately responsible to generate this evidence, and must work with several people usually hours after the crime, during the clean up, to find said evidence.

[Tropico]

Unless you join this too, Question, I apologize. Mistress Gluon and Brian Willy are the ones that suck, though!:cmad:

[LouFerignoDemon]

The only person who sucks is you because you can't come out to my Birthday party. ;-;

[Tropico]

I do sucketh, indeed.:o

[LouFerignoDemon]

I was gonna fly you out and everything. But NOOO!!! You have to crush my hopes and dreams.

Yeah, I can't fake cry.

[Fledermaus]

NRAMA: Okay – over to Kahndaq - four panels...four distinct scenes, and four horsemen...are we looking at the effects of Famine, War, Pestilence and Death?

MS: Yes, Kahndaq is feeling the effects of the Four Horsemen of the Apokolips. Famine, War, Pestilence and Death are spreading throughout the lands, and the monsters behind these plagues will be in Kahndaq soon enough. And trust me, their presence will be even more disastrous. As for Osiris, he still believes himself to be the cause of Kahndaq’s suffering, but will journeying to the Rock of Eternity help his situation, or push him over the edge?


Apololips? Hmmm.

[Colossal Spoons]

I know, I actually need to do my art work (since I actually made it back into school, revealing why I'm in such a good mood, and came back at all, really.)

Congrats. You were gonna leave us if you didn't? :csad:

[The Question]

Unless you join this too, Question, I apologize. Mistress Gluon and Brian Willy are the ones that suck, though!:cmad:

It's alright. I do tend to ramble a bit and make things take longer than they should sometimes. But honestly, I didn't want it to turn into something like this. I just posed a simple question/observation. I doubt it would have gone past me saying "it would have made much more sense if the cops arrested Steel as well."

[BrianWilly]

Y'know, you people could just talk about something else if you wanted to:dry:.

See, they still require SOME evidence. A person's word isn't evidence. If it were, nobody would ever require physical evidence.
Seeing as this is the second time you mentioned it? What technicality?The specific evidence I'm referring to would be the taped hostage message. See, I'm making an assumption here, one that I don't think is very far-fetched...my assumption is that, at some point or another, the police saw the message. In any logical universe, a bloody and bruised girl being held hostage by a large man making threats is going to be at least enough to take the situation seriously. And if they've been looking for an excuse to bring Luthor in in the first place, it's more than enough to start making arrests.

And a technicality could be anything they can think of...that's the point of it being a technicality, after all. Tax evasion. Parking tickets. Terrorist plots. The point wouldn't necessarily be to make the accusation stick, the point would be to hold the suspect so that they could look into the actual crime that they're interested in getting the perp on.

Aaaaand, why do you think Luthor is about as smart as someone pretending to be a criminal genius?

I don't know why you're trying to make Luthor out to be a lump, but he's really not that dumb. Do you really think this is how he thought out the plan?

"Ah, I'll just lure Steel here, and beat him up, the cops will NEVER show up, and I won't need a back up plan!!! *Insert evil laughter.*"

He actually probably accounted for the cops being there, seeing how he thinks a little further ahead than most. And you know he's sure his factory is going to be investigated post the falling of all those heros anyway. If you truly think that he didn't have an idea about that, then you're truly underestimating him.In Luthor's eyes, the only thing that was ever really a threat to him is Superman...and Superman's not around now. And Luthor himself just got enough juice to put him on par with Superman...which is what he's been striving to do since almost a year now. He never really thought much of the law in the first place, and now he's got the power to flaunt it at his whim...in his mind, this is what Superman does all the time (ignore the law), and in his mind he's now Superman. I mean, he outright said that he was going to remake the world and enforce his laws. With his new powers, did he even care if the police thought he was guilty anymore? He's Superman! He can do whatever he likes!

Is it possible that he let down his guard and grew overconfident? I don't think it's absolutely likely, but it wouldn't exactly be the first time. I don't get the impression that he ever thought he would lose. From the way he spoke in the issue, I get the impression that he fully intended to either A)use John Irons as a bargaining chip so that Natasha would comply with him and make him look good to the press and even to the Titans, B) and kill all invading heroes present and then claim self defense, or C) take over the world outright with his new powers. I don't think Luthor's stupid. But I don't think anyone reading this issue could claim that he was completely composed and of sound mind, what with his ranting like a megalomaniac about naming the planet after himself and building himself a JLA and how no one's smart enough or powerful enough to stop him.

Again, this wouldn't be the first time he's grown overconfident. The last time he thought he had a clear victory over Superman, he dressed up in a big green armor and started blowing things up, jeopardizing his presidency not to mention his general reputation. I don't see this situation as being much different. And besides, if he's so down with the prep-time, why exactly does he lose so often?
Yes, corrupt. A corrupt system is when an outside individual influence is allowed to circumvent the blocks put in place to ensure a usually fair way of doing things, based on who they are, or what they do.And at the end of the day, what the system truly relies on is human judgment. If you've lied and lied and lied in the past and abused the system in outrageous ways and put yourself above its administrators through manipulation and deceit and subterfuge, I don't consider it much of an injustice or corruption if, ultimately, said system in turn forfeits its protection of you. You can't expect the law to protect you all the time if you don't respect the law any of the time, because ultimately it is human judgment that handles the law, and human judgment is incapable of being objective to someone like Luthor who's been connected to more crimes than there are words to describe, if rarely ever proven guilty of them. Which is like saying O.J. Simpson was never proven to have killed anyone, and Michael Jackson was never proven to have molested boys...in other words, utterly meaningless to the human bias.

Meanwhile, if you constantly uphold the virtues of the law and go far and beyond what is required of a law-abiding citizen, setting yourself as the standard for others to follow...naturally, the human judgment which guides the law will be rigged in your favor. The "system" doesn't just end at the letter of the law, the system includes all facets of the human condition -- the community, the civilization which drives the laws. It's not like anyone intentionally made it this way; it's just the way that human beings are wired, and thus invariably the way that the law is enforced. If that's corruption, then the human machine is intrinsically corrupt. Which, perhaps it is.

Of course, absolutely none of that would stand for even half a minute in an actual court of law. But unless we feel like having unfeeling robots enforce the laws to the letter, it's a fact of the "system."

What you said doesn't even make sense in comparison to what I was saying.I'm just wondering what sort of evidence you think would be evidence enough to a jury if a taped confession wasn't enough. Anyone could claim that any evidence is doctored. Just because they claim it doesn't mean that people will believe them, or that their claims will be indisputed. I mean, if there was no way to test these things, then any accused person could just claim "The evidence against me is fake!" and then that'd be that. Yes, the accusation against John Irons doctoring mechanical evidence is slightly less suspicious given that he's a technophile. However, that's only slightly less suspicious and not even remotely less contrived. It's not nearly going to be enough to convince a jury, and especially not after Natasha and the rest of the Titans give sworn testimonies against Luthor, handing everyone a rational and logical explanation for the New Year's Eve disaster, which everyone is still quite sore and suspicious at Luthor for. And, really, even if Jake Colby's half-eaten body is never found, it's going to be quite a feat to explain why traces of him where found in Hannibal Bates' stomach during the autopsy...

But we get ahead of ourselves. In any case, whether or not evidence is doctored or is believable in a trial has no bearing on whether someone could make an arrest based on that evidence in the first place. And they most definitely could.

The likelihood is small regardless. Most cops aren't just going to up and arrest someone based on someone elses word without some, even circumstatial evidence that can be provided for reasonable doubt. Steel, again, someone who can be proven to just suffer psychological stress, is definitely not a good piece of evidence.
One cop that's ultimately responsible to generate this evidence, and must work with several people usually hours after the crime, during the clean up, to find said evidence.Steel might not be a good piece of evidence. But Natasha Irons, a battered teenage girl, who was seen in a hostage video message, spilling everything she's found out about Luthor and everything that he's done to her? The police would have to take her seriously unless they felt like being derelict in their duties.

Also add the fact that this is Metropolis, not Gotham or New York or whatever, and the Metropolis police department and citizenry have traditionally had good relations with its superheroes, and even more specifically with Steel. No matter what his psychological condition is, they wouldn't just laugh off something he was claiming. And he's not making the claims alone, the Teen Titans are backing him up.

I still get the impression that you're trying to argue against this arrest based on whether it was smart or right or safe, not whether it was likely or unlikely. Just because it's not the most rational thing in the world doesn't make it any less likely to occur. No, it's probably not a good idea for cops to arrest people on a whim. But it happens anyway. It's probably not smart for people to just blindly follow superheroes' words without a plethora of evidence. But they do anyway.

[SpideyInATree]

This was definitely Steel's week. They definitely solidified him as the true bad ass of 52 as he just goes busting into LexCorp taking on a Superman powered Lex Luthor with no freakin' armor on....and with the help of his quick thinking niece.

However, I was very disappointed in the lack of Ralph Dibny/Dr. Fate helmet. These guys need a lot more face time, damnit.

[PWN3R]

I had no clue Steel was missing a hand.:o

[Eros]

This was definitely Steel's week. They definitely solidified him as the true bad ass of 52 as he just goes busting into LexCorp taking on a Superman powered Lex Luthor with no freakin' armor on....and with the help of his quick thinking niece.

However, I was very disappointed in the lack of Ralph Dibny/Dr. Fate helmet. These guys need a lot more face time, damnit.

Didn't he get tossed out a window?

[The Leaguer]

This thread makes me wish I was thrown out a window.

[SpideyInATree]

I wish you would be thrown out of a window as well.

[GoldenAgeHero]

dont we all?

[Tropico]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.;):D

[GoldenAgeHero]

unless the glass house is shatter proof.

[Tropico]

You're right. I wish you would be thrown out of a shatter proof window. Again. And again. And again. It'd be cool to see how many times it takes before it breaks.:D:up:

[SpideyInATree]

Well, if it's shatter proof glass it'll never shatter and GAH will just eternally be thrown into a window for the rest of his life. Though, with all the blood slapping onto the window it'd be like making some morbid abstract art.

[Tropico]

Well, if it's shatter proof glass it'll never shatter and GAH will just eternally be thrown into a window for the rest of his life. Though, with all the blood slapping onto the window it'd be like making some morbid abstract art.

Shatterproof glass: "Tempered glass that breaks into rounded grains instead of jagged shards. Also, glass between two plates of plastic to prevent pieces of glass from flying out when broken aka safety glass."

I could have posted the same after GAH's simple minded reply, but the other one was funner and following the vein of previous posts.:yay:

[Kitsune]

People in Glass houses should make love in the basement.

[SpideyInATree]

See, I'm in comic nerd mode right now so I see "shatterproof glass" and I think of the Avengers Tower which is unbreakable. But Spider-Man found a way to break it with Wolverine's body. But, anyway...back at the ranch.

[GoldenAgeHero]

You're right. I wish you would be thrown out of a shatter proof window. Again. And again. And again. It'd be cool to see how many times it takes before it breaks.:D:up:

i already know how many times it takes, i can tell just from your blood stains.

[Darthphere]

i already know how many times it takes, i can tell just from your blood stains.

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

[Tropico]

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

He means the amount of blood on my clothes from the spatter of smashing him against the glass.

[Darthphere]

He means the amount of blood on my clothes from the spatter of smashing him against the glass.

That makes sense, but I have a feeling it was some sort of failed comeback.

[Tropico]

It's GAH!:confused: Even in the Marvel forums they know it's bad to be compared to him.:dry:

[The Leaguer]

From NuklearPower.com (http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/070130.png):

http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/070130.png

Check out that last panel.

[Memphis Slim]

Originally Posted by SpideyInATree http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11162784#post11162784)
This was definitely Steel's week. They definitely solidified him as the true bad ass of 52 as he just goes busting into LexCorp taking on a Superman powered Lex Luthor with no freakin' armor on....and with the help of his quick thinking niece.

However, I was very disappointed in the lack of Ralph Dibny/Dr. Fate helmet. These guys need a lot more face time, damnit.




How did Henry Irons not get toasted by that blast of heat vision??? :huh:

[Colossal Spoons]

^Damn good question

[Anubis]

He didn't go full blast. It was like a massive flash of heat. From 70 to 150 degrees for a split second.

[Memphis Slim]

He didn't go full blast. It was like a massive flash of heat. From 70 to 150 degrees for a split second.

Massive??? Split second?? That's all it takes.
70 to 150 degrees??? Then he shouldn't have any eye balls, eye brows or skin.

[Anubis]

Well, maybe it was a dry heat :)

At any rate, it's like sticking your head into a oven and closing it real fast. It hurt, but it wasn't fatal.

[Colossal Spoons]

Looks like neither Marvel nor DC can tell the diff between heat blasts and concussive blasts :rolleyes:

[Anubis]

How do you figure? That was a heat blast.

[Colossal Spoons]

It sent Steel flying backwards as if it were concussive and we've all seen Cyclop's blast "fry" things before.

[Anubis]

No it didn't. He just fell down, that s**t hurt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/AnubisGOD/DC%20II/Steel3.jpg

[Colossal Spoons]

Isn't he a good distance away in the next panel? Regardless, if not; then it's only Marvel who don't know what concussive means.

[Darthphere]

Yeah, I didn't see anything wrong with the scene. That was the first time Lex ever used that power so he probably didn't hit him full blast anyway.

[The Leaguer]

Everyone knows black people don't get burnt, that's why their skin is black. Evolution, motherf***ers.

[Colossal Spoons]

^clearly

[Anubis]

Isn't he a good distance away in the next panel? Regardless, if not; then it's only Marvel who don't know what concussive means.


Now I wouldn't say that. In this instance, it was used properly, but there have been plenty of times where Supes heat vision was able to block Darkseid's Omega Beams, and that just shouldn't be possible.

[Darthphere]

Isn't he a good distance away in the next panel? Regardless, if not; then it's only Marvel who don't know what concussive means.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/DC52Week40-015.jpg

[Anubis]

brutal.

[Colossal Spoons]

Gracias Darth

[Manic]

Now WAIT a minute!

Luthor's heat blast was enough to shatter the windows behind him, turn on the sprinkler system, and catch John's pants on fire, and none of those things were hit directly by the heat blast. John's skin? Slightly steamy.

[Colossal Spoons]

Maybe it was some residual effects of his steel skin powers :ninja:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Now WAIT a minute!

Luthor's heat blast was enough to shatter the windows behind him, turn on the sprinkler system, and catch John's pants on fire, and none of those things were hit directly by the heat blast. John's skin? Slightly steamy.

Skin doesn't combust nearly as easy, and glass shatters at high heat.

[Tropico]

Maybe the hammer took some of the brunt off of the beam. Or maybe he was wearing sunscreen lotion with a really high SPF. :o

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm just not going to say it, as it can easily be misconstrued. Even physics jokes can be bad.

[Eros]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/DC52Week40-015.jpg


Terrible:o The scene the dialogue[ especially Luthors evil laugh] Some things that sound and look great in a cartoon, just look campy in a comic.

[Memphis Slim]

Wait a minute........:dry:

Who said it was 70 to 150 degrees?? That wasn't in the story.

[Darthphere]

Deductive reasoning.

[Memphis Slim]

More like trying to cover for a writer's mistake. :yay:

[yenaled]

Celldog was more fun :(

Go on get angry that Steel is bald.

[Darthphere]

More like trying to cover for a writer's mistake. :yay:

Why would I do that? Like I give a **** or not if they made a mistake, its called applying logic and common sense, to a medium where logic and common sense isnt synonymous.

[Anubis]

^what he said.

[Varient]

Maybe the hammer took some of the brunt off of the beam. Or maybe he was wearing sunscreen lotion with a really high SPF. :o

I assumed a carryover to the all steel steel thing he was recovering from,...

I still need to know where he lost his hand,...

[Memphis Slim]

I assumed a carryover to the all steel steel thing he was recovering from,...

I still need to know where he lost his hand,...


This is the most logic conclusion yet.

[Tropico]

I assumed a carryover to the all steel steel thing he was recovering from,...

I still need to know where he lost his hand,...

I thought the same thing when I saw the preview pages that weren't colored. I still think that it's possible even after the coloring that it might be due to some residual

I don't know what the capabilities of the hammer he had at that moment were so it could be that it has some kind of energy absorption. It would make sense to me that it's made so that there's very little carry over to the handle from when the hammer head hits stuff.

I have still don't know how he lost the hand.:(

[The Question]

I thought the same thing when I saw the preview pages that weren't colored. I still think that it's possible even after the coloring that it might be due to some residual

I don't know what the capabilities of the hammer he had at that moment were so it could be that it has some kind of energy absorption. It would make sense to me that it's made so that there's very little carry over to the handle from when the hammer head hits stuff.

I have still don't know how he lost the hand.:(

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure The General crushed it between his teeth during Morrison's League run.

[Tropico]

Yup, here's a scan (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3932/jla03710ez7.jpg) of the moment it happened courtesy of the DC Message Boards.

[WompuM]

I wonder who lost their hand in the most bad=ass way.
Luke Skywalker
Steel
Count Duckoo
Anakin Skywalker
Aquaman
Captain Hook
Wolverine (AoA)
Lex Luthor
Booster Gold
The Claw (from inspector gadget)
Mega Man
Cyborg
?????

[LouFerignoDemon]

You in about thirteen hours.

[Colossal Spoons]

Yup, here's a scan (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3932/jla03710ez7.jpg) of the moment it happened courtesy of the DC Message Boards.


Well awesome

[batnkevlar]

His hand is still there if you notice...

[The Question]

But it's undoubtebly crushed to the point where it's unusable.

[Fledermaus]

I wonder who lost their hand in the most bad=ass way.
Luke Skywalker
Steel
Count Duckoo
Anakin Skywalker
Aquaman
Captain Hook
Wolverine (AoA)
Lex Luthor
Booster Gold
The Claw (from inspector gadget)
Mega Man
Cyborg
?????

Buster Bluth

[WompuM]

took me a second to get that one Fled. freaking hilarious.

[WompuM]

You in about thirteen hours.

well, a 13 hour whacking session will do that to anybody.

[sinewave]

Buster Bluth

LOOSE SEAL!!!

[Kitsune]

I wonder who lost their hand in the most bad=ass way.
Luke Skywalker
Steel
Count Duckoo
Anakin Skywalker
Aquaman
Captain Hook
Wolverine (AoA)
Lex Luthor
Booster Gold
The Claw (from inspector gadget)
Mega Man
Cyborg
?????
COUNT DUCKULA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait he didn't lose a hand did he.


Aquaman lost his hand in a LAME way.

[Not Jake]

Yup, here's a scan (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3932/jla03710ez7.jpg) of the moment it happened courtesy of the DC Message Boards.
The artist drew Steel's taint in that first part of the scene.


I'm not gay

[BrianWilly]

He's got some junk in the trunk, too. I thought that whole position was obscenely obscene, but then I notice that it's a pose we see female superheroes in, like, three or four times in every issue of every single comic in the world.

[LouFerignoDemon]

He's got some junk in the trunk, too. I thought that whole position was obscenely obscene, but then I notice that it's a pose we see female superheroes in, like, three or four times in every issue of every single comic in the world.

You say it like it's a bad thing. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

He's got some junk in the trunk, too. I thought that whole position was obscenely obscene, but then I notice that it's a pose we see female superheroes in, like, three or four times in every issue of every single comic in the world.
Probably because it's kind of a feminine pose. It looks a little too graceful and dainty for a guy.

Also, isn't he still clutching his hand in that last panel? I always thought his hand was just f***ed up in that scene, not that he lost it completely. Oh well, live and learn.

[Not Jake]

I don't think that JLA scene can be the source of the flying robo hand, because

A) In the scene, he still clearly has both hands attached, and
2) In the scene, his right had is bitten, while in 52, his left hand is the flying robo hand

If either one was the sole evidence, I'd say it was just an error, but there are two things wrong.

[Not Jake]

Well, if you count the taint and ass shot, there are a lot of things wrong. So very, very wrong.

[Kebab gud]

So ... the question is
truly dead then..

[sinewave]

So ... the question is
truly dead then..

yup.

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't worry, we'll have a new one by the end of 52, and that's just as good--no, even better--according to DC's M.O.

[WompuM]

just like the brand new atom and the brand new blue beetle are better right? or how bout the new superboy? Or the new spectre?

[mwm1331]

Actually the new blue beetle is a great title.
As for the atom I haven't read it, but it looks like it sucks.
I really hate montoya as the question, but then we haven't seen the real question since he was at charlton. If they are gonna keep the character as a zen master moral reletivist, which is the exact opposite of who the character originally was, it might as well be the minority trifecta they have turned montoya into.

[Anubis]

I don't know, i'm kinda looking forward to her taking over. I've gotten used to many things, Teenage Clone of Superman, Young punk getting a ring in the back of a club, Fear Demons. This seems like it'll be just one more thing to get used to.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The only problem I really have with Montoya is her being a lesbian. It feels forced.

[Anubis]

She's been a lesbian for quite some time now. Before that she was kinda in a relationship with Two Face (More like he was the stalker and she was the stalked. ) Not much attention was paid to whether she was straight or not.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know that. O.o I'm just saying that's my only problem with her.

[WompuM]

Well, what I would really love is a JLU spin-off starring the Question.

[TheCorpulent1]

The only problem I really have with Montoya is her being a lesbian. It feels forced.
Have you read the "Half a Life" arc from Gotham Central? I thought that handled Renee's lesbianism very well, without feeling contrived.

[Anubis]

I know that. O.o I'm just saying that's my only problem with her.


Oh, well, I don't know, maybe SBP can punch a wall so now she can be bi.

[Tropico]

The truth is that Mistress Gluon doesn't want the competition, that's all.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Oh, well, I don't know, maybe SBP can punch a wall so now she can be bi.
Bisexual probably would bother me less, but still bother me. Homosexuality doesn't bother me at all. It's the sheer amount of lesbians we're beginning to see in comics over gay men. It almost feels like a gimmick.
The truth is that Mistress Gluon doesn't want the competition, that's all.

Power Girl is mine! :cmad:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Have you read the "Half a Life" arc from Gotham Central? I thought that handled Renee's lesbianism very well, without feeling contrived.


Yeah, that was good.

I mean, (and it ALWAYS sounds like I'm some insecure conservative jerk) bringing another lesbian to the forefront.

[WompuM]

anyone else think it was funny that renee hit on wonder woman?

[mwm1331]

anyone else think it was funny that renee hit on wonder woman?

Im actually surprised winnick didn't find a way to gaycon Wondie.

[Varient]

Im actually surprised winnick didn't find a way to gaycon Wondie.

?
By rights based on her society,... Wonderwoman should at least be Bi-sexual.

I'm surprised that she's even curious after spending decades around women loving women while preaching how horrible men are.

But,.. comics are not about reality.

[Kebab gud]

Well, what I would really love is a JLU spin-off starring the Question.
JL/JLU showed very well that there are 3 that NEED their own show
The Flash, Green Arrow and the Question


anyone else think it was funny that renee hit on wonder woman?
She was like "uhhhmm.... How you dooin?"
and Wonderpants was all like "Im Emo now.. soo emo"

And i dont really mind reene as The Question.. looks like shes training hard with Richard Dragon thats good..
just to be we have to wait seven weeks before we get to see her with the mask..

[LouFerignoDemon]

?
By rights based on her society,... Wonderwoman should at least be Bi-sexual.

I'm surprised that she's even curious after spending decades around women loving women while preaching how horrible men are.

But,.. comics are not about reality.


Definitely. Judging by Wonder Woman's upcomings, it's a dead suprise she's not flat out a lesbian.

[sinewave]

The only problem I really have with Montoya is her being a lesbian. It feels forced.

considering that she's been a lesbian for quite some time and it's widely considered to have been handled tastefully in respect to the character, is there any situation in which you wouldn't have a problem with a lesbian character in the dcu?

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't mind her being a lesbian. Read my comment to...I think Corp about it.

Lesbians I don't mind (that would make my life extremely interesting though if I did), I don't like it when every single god damn team we come across anymore has at least one on it. Or one potential one, or one that MAY be. I'd like variety.

And sure, they don't exactly plague the DCU, but it feels like they almost try to shove them down my throat. Kind of like how they feel KC should be shoved down your throat.

[mwm1331]

considering that she's been a lesbian for quite some time and it's widely considered to have been handled tastefully in respect to the character, is there any situation in which you wouldn't have a problem with a lesbian character in the dcu?

Speaking for myself absolutely. A new character who wasn't shown to be straight, and dating the opposite sex whne he or she was first introduced.
Gaycons should not be allowed.
If a writer feels the need to have a gay character then he or she should create one, like ron marz did with terry in GL.

[TheCorpulent1]

It depends on the situation for me. The lesbian angle was tacked onto Renee, sure, but I think they did it really well regardless. Meanwhile, they (re)created a (kinda-)new character as a lesbian from the start in Kate Kane, but I thought that was horribly shallow and stupid because Kate's character is basically defined by the fact that she's "the lesbian Batwoman." It's ham-fisted and reeks of a marketing gimmick to stir up some controversy and get free press. Renee's was handled more organically, probably because she's a third-string character whom no one cared enough about before Gotham Central to make a big deal over the revelation of her homosexuality.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It depends on the situation for me. The lesbian angle was tacked onto Renee, sure, but I think they did it really well regardless. Meanwhile, they (re)created a (kinda-)new character as a lesbian from the start in Kate Kane, but I thought that was horribly shallow and stupid because Kate's character is basically defined by the fact that she's "the lesbian Batwoman." It's ham-fisted and reeks of a marketing gimmick to stir up some controversy and get free press. Renee's was handled more organically, probably because she's a third-string character whom no one cared enough about before Gotham Central to make a big deal over the revelation of her homosexuality.

Well, for Renee, with that story, it was handled well. But I mean, with her becoming the Question, it feels gimmicky, especially with the new Batwoman.

Like, "We need a way to bring in the readers, who just so happen to be primarily male."

"DUDE!!! LESBIANS!!!!"

I want gay men.

[sinewave]

I don't mind her being a lesbian. Read my comment to...I think Corp about it.

Lesbians I don't mind (that would make my life extremely interesting though if I did), I don't like it when every single god damn team we come across anymore has at least one on it. Or one potential one, or one that MAY be. I'd like variety.

And sure, they don't exactly plague the DCU, but it feels like they almost try to shove them down my throat. Kind of like how they feel KC should be shoved down your throat.

i understand, but you said the only problem you had with her, specifically, was her lesbianism. and i'm saying that she's one of the few gay or lesbian characters that has been handled well. so, it sounds like you just don't like the idea of gays or lesbians being represented in comics, if you have a problem with her, of all characters, being one. it was definitely not a tacked-on effort to make her gay, so i don't really see the problem with it. other characters, you may have a point, but not montoya.

[sinewave]

Speaking for myself absolutely. A new character who wasn't shown to be straight, and dating the opposite sex whne he or she was first introduced.
Gaycons should not be allowed.
If a writer feels the need to have a gay character then he or she should create one, like ron marz did with terry in GL.

but that's how it is in real life, though. many gay and lesbian people take years to come to terms with their sexual identities. sometimes they attempt to live a straight lifestyle before they come out of the closet. are there any examples of her dating or screwing around with any men prior to coming out?

[LouFerignoDemon]

i understand, but you said the only problem you had with her, specifically, was her lesbianism. and i'm saying that she's one of the few gay or lesbian characters that has been handled well. so, it sounds like you just don't like the idea of gays or lesbians being represented in comics, if you have a problem with her, of all characters, being one. it was definitely not a tacked-on effort to make her gay, so i don't really see the problem with it. other characters, you may have a point, but not montoya.

Like I said, that would make my life tons interesting if I didn't like the idea of a homosexual in a comic.

I don't like feeling forced. And DC by far has more lesbian characters than Y The Last Man it feels sometimes. I actually go into a team book with DC, and look for the lesbianesque character because I know there will be one. So yes, that's my only problem with her. If she weren't, I wouldn't feel forced.

[sinewave]

It depends on the situation for me. The lesbian angle was tacked onto Renee, sure, but I think they did it really well regardless. Meanwhile, they (re)created a (kinda-)new character as a lesbian from the start in Kate Kane, but I thought that was horribly shallow and stupid because Kate's character is basically defined by the fact that she's "the lesbian Batwoman." It's ham-fisted and reeks of a marketing gimmick to stir up some controversy and get free press. Renee's was handled more organically, probably because she's a third-string character whom no one cared enough about before Gotham Central to make a big deal over the revelation of her homosexuality.

i'll ask you the same thing i asked mistress gluon, is there an ideal way to introduce the gay aspect of a character (established or new) into the dcu? because it seems that no matter what, people just assume it's a marketing ploy or an attempt at being p.c. there's got to be some way to do it without everyone (non-homophobes) freaking out about it.

[LouFerignoDemon]

i'll ask you the same thing i asked mistress gluon, is there an ideal way to introduce the gay aspect of a character (established or new) into the dcu? because it seems that no matter what, people just assume it's a marketing ploy or an attempt at being p.c. there's got to be some way to do it without everyone (non-homophobes) freaking out about it.


In DC's case?

Introduce gay men.

[mwm1331]

but that's how it is in real life, though. many gay and lesbian people take years to come to terms with their sexual identities. sometimes they attempt to live a straight lifestyle before they come out of the closet. are there any examples of her dating or screwing around with any men prior to coming out?

Yep. If Im not mistaken she was actually engaged.

[sinewave]

Like I said, that would make my life tons interesting if I didn't like the idea of a homosexual in a comic.

I don't like feeling forced. And DC by far has more lesbian characters than Y The Last Man it feels sometimes. I actually go into a team book with DC, and look for the lesbianesque character because I know there will be one. So yes, that's my only problem with her. If she weren't, I wouldn't feel forced.

i'm not sure how many lesbian characters there are in the dcu. do you have a list? i can only count them on one hand. i hope you don't think i'm accusing you of being homophobic or anything. i'm just really curious why every time we find out a character is gay people just assume it's for marketing purposes or attempts at political correctness.

[sinewave]

In DC's case?

Introduce gay men.

yeah, i agree that the ratio should be pretty even. i still don't know how many gay and lesbian characters there are in the dcu.

Yep. If Im not mistaken she was actually engaged.

ok, thanks.

[Tropico]

Well, for Renee, with that story, it was handled well. But I mean, with her becoming the Question, it feels gimmicky, especially with the new Batwoman.

Like, "We need a way to bring in the readers, who just so happen to be primarily male."

"DUDE!!! LESBIANS!!!!"

I want gay men.

You should have been reading Manhunter if you haven't. And Obsidian is in the JSA, it only remains to be seen if they'll remember he's gay. Oh, and possibly Wildkit.;)

[Kebab gud]

yeah, i agree that the ratio should be pretty even. i still don't know how many gay and lesbian characters there are in the dcu.

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php <-- good list
but i resently found that a man fom DCU was missing on that list under "Bi"..
but i have forgotten who :P

[LouFerignoDemon]

i'm not sure how many lesbian characters there are in the dcu. do you have a list? i can only count them on one hand. i hope you don't think i'm accusing you of being homophobic or anything. i'm just really curious why every time we find out a character is gay people just assume it's for marketing purposes or attempts at political correctness.

It would be really akward for someone who's extremely openly bisexual to be accussed of homophobia.

(An entry from Francoise's blog: I saw Faye today, and that damned evil feeling came back! I had to rush home right away and vomit.)

At least the two Outsiders, a Batwoman, Renee Montoya, Scandal and Powerhouse, right off the top of my head.

[LouFerignoDemon]

You should have been reading Manhunter if you haven't. And Obsidian is in the JSA, it only remains to be seen if they'll remember he's gay. Oh, and possibly Wildkit.;)

I'm not saying they DON'T exist.

(Obsidian rocks)

I'm saying they're outnumbered at least two to one.

[Darthphere]

This Renee story arc is so....I dont know. I loved her character in Gotham Central, but I'm sorry I cannot and will not support her as The Question.

[Anubis]

It would be really akward for someone who's extremely openly bisexual to be accussed of homophobia.

(An entry from Francoise's blog: I saw Faye today, and that damned evil feeling came back! I had to rush home right away and vomit.)

At least the two Outsiders, a Batwoman, Renee Montoya, Scandal and Powerhouse, right off the top of my head.

Grace is Bi, in fact, she'd f**k anything that moves. Same for Powerhouse

[Anubis]

This Renee story arc is so....I dont know. I loved her character in Gotham Central, but I'm sorry I cannot and will not support her as The Question.


Why not? I mean, i'm willing to bet she moves more towards Q's personality once she takes over the role. All the Zen stuff, and training, and s**t she's been through, likely to be the catylist for a change from the boozing, womanizer we've seen over the past three or four years. I'm looking forward to it. Character progression, what a concept.

[Darthphere]

Why not? I mean, i'm willing to bet she moves more towards Q's personality once she takes over the role. All the Zen stuff, and training, and s**t she's been through, likely to be the catylist for a change from the boozing, womanizer we've seen over the past three or four years. I'm looking forward to it. Character progression, what a concept.

So doing the same exact things her predecessor did, is character progression? I call that lazy and gimmicky.

[Anubis]

She's doing the same exact thing her predecessor did, only she's gay. The rest writes itself. ;)

Seriously, you know what I mean. A character with similar beliefs, or whatever, but coming from a different perspective. All i'm saying is give it a chance first. I thought the New Beetle would be crap, and I was right, but I had to read it first before I could really make a proper decision. :o

[Darthphere]

This is like the start of a bad bar joke. SO a lesbian walks into a bar...

[mwm1331]

This is like the start of a bad bar joke. SO a lesbian walks into a bar...
Caling it a bar is soooo pahllocentric, don't you know that kind of language is how the patriarchs opress women?

[Darthphere]

Dictionary. Buy. Now.

[mwm1331]

Dictionary. Buy. Now.

You know if you're going to post in a text based medium you should really put more care into your spelling and grammar. I mean those are berely even fragments much less sentances.

[BrianWilly]

Pfft. Lesbians are awesome. But of course there's going to be a gender inequality issue in comics...hello, this is comics. Male-driven, male-dominated. Gay male characters are threats. Lesbian characters are potential sexies. It sucks, probably more for me than for anyone else, but it's not going to change, at least at this point in time. And frankly this is why, for all the sht I give him, I'm really glad that there are writers like Judd Winick around, to give the company a much-needed kick in the ass from time to time. And even his lesbian characters are starting to outnumber his gays.

In any case, there's no reason to disparage the currently well-written lesbian characters in the DC 'verse. You can't get stuck up on this, or you might as well start to get stuck up every single instance of misogyny in comics. And there are many. For one thing, the amount of cloth that covers the male superheroes' bodies compares to the amount of cloth that covers the female superheroes' bodies on a ratio of about 100:1, no matter how impractical it is for characters like, say, Huntress to go jumping into street fighting with her legs bare and boobs popping out.

For gay characters, look to Vertigo. I swear, you couldn't throw a rock in any direction there without hitting a gay man/angel/demon/vegetable. I have no problem with turning a previous character gay or lesbian or bi so long as it is a reasonable transition, doesn't outright contradict prior characterization, and is written well. Obsidian and Montoya are both good examples of this. Batwoman is...arguable, though I do like the way she's been written in 52. Turning Living Lightning gay over at Marvel was pretty ridiculous, because the guy's been pretty openly straight before and Slott did it as a friggin' joke. That's a great example of how not to do it. But I do think Marvel has the two current best gay characters out there, Billy and Teddy.

I've already had lengthy discussions about Wonder Woman's sexuality with other posters. The conclusion I've come up with is that there's no way that she's an outright lesbian, and unless you can come up with a good indicator of why she's never, ever, ever in her entire post-Crisis canon showed any sexual interest in women, then she's not bisexual either. Her time on Paradise Island is definitely not a good indicator of Wonder Woman's sexuality. For the most part she looked at all the other Amazons as her mothers and surrogate mothers and occasionally siblings...remember, she was raised as a baby by them, who were already adults. Could sexual interests have developed anyway, despite the ick factor? Sure. But it was never shown. We've been shown a lot of other Amazons' sexual preferences; a reasonable number of them are lesbians, or at least bisexual, and at least one of them has even been attracted to Diana. But it was never reciprocated. And that's just fine. The notion that a reasonable number of people on this island are lesbians so therefore all people on the island are lesbians is about as valid as the notion that a reasonable number of people on the planet are straight so therefore all people on the planet are straight.

[Darthphere]

You know if you're going to post in a text based medium you should really put more care into your spelling and grammar. I mean those are berely even fragments much less sentances.

Good lord.

[mwm1331]

Pfft. Lesbians are awesome. But of course there's going to be a gender inequality issue in comics...hello, this is comics. Male-driven, male-dominated.

In other words evil.



Gay male characters are threats. Lesbian characters are potential sexies.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I mean gay men aint competing with you for the honeys, lesbo's are.



It sucks, probably more for me than for anyone else, but it's not going to change, at least at this point in time. And frankly this is why, for all the sht I give him, I'm really glad that there are writers like Judd Winick around, to give the company a much-needed kick in the ass from time to time. And even his lesbian characters are starting to outnumber his gays.

You sure thats not a fist in the ass?

In any case, there's no reason to disparage the currently well-written lesbian characters in the DC 'verse. You can't get stuck up on this, or you might as well start to get stuck up every single instance of misogyny in comics. And there are many.

You mean women don't like being stuffed in refrigarators? I feel so enlightned now.



For one thing, the amount of cloth that covers the male superheroes' bodies compares to the amount of cloth that covers the female superheroes' bodies on a ratio of about 100:1, no matter how impractical it is for characters like, say, Huntress to go jumping into street fighting with her legs bare and boobs popping out.

Yeah more nekkid superman. Woo hoo.


For gay characters, look to Vertigo. I swear, you couldn't throw a rock in any direction there without hitting a gay man/angel/demon/vegetable. I have no problem with turning a previous character gay or lesbian or bi so long as it is a reasonable transition, doesn't outright contradict prior characterization, and is written well.




Obsidian and Montoya are both good examples of this. Batwoman is...arguable, though I do like the way she's been written in 52. Turning Living Lightning gay over at Marvel was pretty ridiculous, because the guy's been pretty openly straight before and Slott did it as a friggin' joke. That's a great example of how not to do it. But I do think Marvel has the two current best gay characters out there, Billy and Teddy.


DOn't forget joey Q!



I've already had lengthy discussions about Wonder Woman's sexuality with other posters. The conclusion I've come up with is that there's no way that she's an outright lesbian, and unless you can come up with a good indicator of why she's never, ever, ever in her entire post-Crisis canon showed any sexual interest in women, then she's not bisexual either. Her time on Paradise Island is definitely not a good indicator of Wonder Woman's sexuality. For the most part she looked at all the other Amazons as her mothers and surrogate mothers and occasionally siblings...remember, she was raised as a baby by them, who were already adults. Could sexual interests have developed anyway, despite the ick factor? Sure. But it was never shown. We've been shown a lot of other Amazons' sexual preferences; a reasonable number of them are lesbians, or at least bisexual, and at least one of them has even been attracted to Diana. But it was never reciprocated. And that's just fine. The notion that a reasonable number of people on this island are lesbians so therefore all people on the island are lesbians is about as valid as the notion that a reasonable number of people on the planet are straight so therefore all people on the planet are straight.
All people on this planet are straight. DOn't you know that lesbianism was invented by the patriarchy in order to fullfill mens sexual fantasies?

[mwm1331]

Good lord.

How the **** did you recognize me!

[sinewave]

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php <-- good list
but i resently found that a man fom DCU was missing on that list under "Bi"..
but i have forgotten who :P

thanks.

It would be really akward for someone who's extremely openly bisexual to be accussed of homophobia.

(An entry from Francoise's blog: I saw Faye today, and that damned evil feeling came back! I had to rush home right away and vomit.)

At least the two Outsiders, a Batwoman, Renee Montoya, Scandal and Powerhouse, right off the top of my head.

i assumed you were non-straight, by your comments but i didn't want to over-step my bounds.

as for the ratio of gay, lesbian and bi charcters in the dcu, according to the site that kebab linked to there are 24 gay male characters, 17 lesbian characters and 5 bi characters in the dcu. so, it doesn't appear that lesbians are outnumbered by gays.

[BrianWilly]

Well, you do have to factor that most of those characters are either in limbo from being unused for so long or flat-out so dang obscure they might as well not even exist in the first place. Many of them had a total of one appearance in the first place. Seriously..."Off-Ramp?" "Cavalier?" Whothefak?

[yenaled]

Yeah it's not about numbers but quality.

Characters like Hero Cruz, Tazmanian Devil, Monsieur Mallah and The Brain. Don't really do much to showcase strong gay characters. I'd say Terry Berg was a good character till Raab turned him into martyr.

But Obsidian and Pied Piper have been so far really well written and showcase characters that are more than just a sexuality. Renee Montoya I think has a been a character that isn't just a sexuality she has many other qualities and therefor is a good character. Kathy Kane however is not.

[Varient]

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php <-- good list
but i resently found that a man fom DCU was missing on that list under "Bi"..
but i have forgotten who :P

Cannon and Saber (DC)
Captain Metropolis (DC)
Captain Stingaree (DC)
Cavalier (DC)
Chemical King (DC)
Damon Mathews (DC)
Extrano (DC)
Gannon Malloy (DC)
Hero (DC)
Hooded Justice (DC)
Houston (DC)
Josiah Power (DC)
Lance Gardner (DC)
Manga Khan (DC)
Mitch Sekofsky (DC)
Monsieur Mallah and The Brain (DC)
Obsidian (DC)
Off-Ramp (DC)
Piper (DC)

Hmmm..... More than a handfull,.. I won't keep counting,.. it's enough that Homosexuals are represented more by proportion than any other group.

Tsk.

(No Heat,.. A few of the Women I would Much rather had seen as Straight.)

[sinewave]

Yeah it's not about numbers but quality.

Characters like Hero Cruz, Tazmanian Devil, Monsieur Mallah and The Brain. Don't really do much to showcase strong gay characters. I'd say Terry Berg was a good character till Raab turned him into martyr.

But Obsidian and Pied Piper have been so far really well written and showcase characters that are more than just a sexuality. Renee Montoya I think has a been a character that it's just a sexuality she has many other qualities and therefor is a good character. Kathy Kane however is not.

in that case i'd consider montoya one of the "quality" gay or lesbian characters. i'm just trying to figure out why people have a problem with her being gay. it was handled in a quality manor, lesbians aren't outnumbered by gay characters and the number of gay and lesbian charcters in comics aren't anywhere near proportionate to their counterparts in the real world, so what's the problem with her being gay or characters being gay in the the first place? i think people just need to ***** about something and that's an easy thing to ***** about, but it's really not justifiable.

[Tropico]

If people think the ratio of lesbians to gay is depressing.........you know what's depressing? The ratio of noobs to newbs we've been getting for a while. I'm all for variety, but does the real world have to cram crappy noobs down our throats? Can't they give us a few good newbs instead?:(

[mwm1331]

in that case i'd consider montoya one of the "quality" gay or lesbian characters. i'm just trying to figure out why people have a problem with her being gay. it was handled in a quality manor, lesbians aren't outnumbered by gay characters and the number of gay and lesbian charcters in comics aren't anywhere near proportionate to their counterparts in the real world, so what's the problem with her being gay or characters being gay in the the first place? i think people just need to ***** about something and that's an easy thing to ***** about, but it's really not justifiable.
actually it would seem to me that gays are over represented in the DCU. Hell theres more Gay superheroes/villians than there are blacks, latinos, and asians combined.
(well now that we have the Great Ten maybe not including asians)

[BrianWilly]

On another note, my thoughts for this week...

52 Week 41
Art seems a bit rushed to me this week, but ironically I hear a lot of people actually liked the art. Go fig.

I'm enjoying the Montoya story, so I thought this week was great. Loved the Wonder Woman cameo, it was about time she popped up. I can't believe I'm saying this...but I hope we get to see some time spent between her and I Ching.

Ah, Ralph. Still a crazy dick, in various senses of the term. Apparently he's assembling items from the three demons, though everything he's learned about magic for the past year would tell him that's a STUPID IDEA GOOD GOD ARE YOU STUPID. We'll see how this goes...forty plus issues of books and this series has disappointed me remarkly little.

And Mogo! That was an awesome surprise. When the Question is Mogo, the answer is hell yes.

(8 out of 10)

[BrianWilly]

actually it would seem to me that gays are over represented in the DCU. Hell theres more Gay superheroes/villians than there are blacks, latinos, and asians combined.
(well now that we have the Great Ten maybe not including asians)The hell? That's not even remotely close to being true.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Pfft. Lesbians are awesome. But of course there's going to be a gender inequality issue in comics...hello, this is comics. Male-driven, male-dominated. Gay male characters are threats. Lesbian characters are potential sexies. It sucks, probably more for me than for anyone else, but it's not going to change, at least at this point in time. And frankly this is why, for all the sht I give him, I'm really glad that there are writers like Judd Winick around, to give the company a much-needed kick in the ass from time to time. And even his lesbian characters are starting to outnumber his gays.

In any case, there's no reason to disparage the currently well-written lesbian characters in the DC 'verse. You can't get stuck up on this, or you might as well start to get stuck up every single instance of misogyny in comics. And there are many. For one thing, the amount of cloth that covers the male superheroes' bodies compares to the amount of cloth that covers the female superheroes' bodies on a ratio of about 100:1, no matter how impractical it is for characters like, say, Huntress to go jumping into street fighting with her legs bare and boobs popping out.


I quote BrianWilly because I'm the most dissapointed in him for failing to recognize this.

Alright, I've said it a few times, but people are still absolutely missing the point on why I said it at all. Do I blame you? Yes. You're all above the fifth grade level.

When the hell did I mention I was offended by this? That I was hung up on some gender inequality? Anyways, who the hell said I even viewed anything politically correct? More than once have I said that it's a lie, and violates the American's first amendment altogether.

Do I care how superheros dress?

Do I care who they hang out with?

No, no, definitely not, and hell no.

Tropico knows, and I figured everybody else knew (and you really, Brian:o ) I launch every single little thing I do from an entertainment standpoint. If I don't find it entertaining, I complain. If I don't think it's something I like, I complain. If for whatever reason, it isn't catchy, I complain. If it makes me bored to tears, I complain. If I think it's absolutely predictable, I complain. If I think that something more interesting quite possibly was happening in the local newspaper about a grandma crossing a street, I complain.

If you put a pure caucasian team in the middle of a black filled city, you can guarantee I'm not going to complain. Why? Because that story would kick ass. Unless of course, it was a stereotypical story. THEN I WOULD COMPLAIN.

I'm sure you guys kind of by now are kind of seeing WHY I'm complaining about this now. But please, by all means, if you really don't get it (Dodge, a'cause you'll say it for kicks), then please, let me know, I'll come up with a bazillion more reasons why I complain about something boring and uninventive to me.

[Anubis]

Mahallla and the Brain don't really count. That's Beastiality. I bet they engage in coprophillia as well.

[LouFerignoDemon]

thanks.



i assumed you were non-straight, by your comments but i didn't want to over-step my bounds.

as for the ratio of gay, lesbian and bi charcters in the dcu, according to the site that kebab linked to there are 24 gay male characters, 17 lesbian characters and 5 bi characters in the dcu. so, it doesn't appear that lesbians are outnumbered by gays.

24, while true, is contextual. How many of them do you see featured regularaly? Outside of Obsidian really?

If people think the ratio of lesbians to gay is depressing.........you know what's depressing? The ratio of noobs to newbs we've been getting for a while. I'm all for variety, but does the real world have to cram crappy noobs down our throats? Can't they give us a few good newbs instead?:(

Full heartedly agreed.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Mahallla and the Brain don't really count. That's Beastiality. I bet they engage in coprophillia as well.

You make it sound like a bad thing. :o

[LouFerignoDemon]

Good lord.

From his posts and sig, I probably would've said the same thing.

[Memphis Slim]

Actually the new blue beetle is a great title.
As for the atom I haven't read it, but it looks like it sucks.
I really hate montoya as the question, but then we haven't seen the real question since he was at charlton. If they are gonna keep the character as a zen master moral reletivist, which is the exact opposite of who the character originally was, it might as well be the minority trifecta they have turned montoya into.


Look for me not to be buying any new "Question" comics. :cmad: This stinks.

[Memphis Slim]

The only problem I really have with Montoya is her being a lesbian. It feels forced.


It is forced. These writers are on their soap boxes. It was forced in Gotham Central. Montoya was not gay at first. But we gotta sell books........

[BrianWilly]

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9358/marvelkidsoj7.jpg

[Memphis Slim]

Definitely. Judging by Wonder Woman's upcomings, it's a dead suprise she's not flat out a lesbian.

I'm glad she's not. And why should she be?? Didn't her mom fall for Heracles??

[Memphis Slim]

Definitely. Judging by Wonder Woman's upcomings, it's a dead suprise she's not flat out a lesbian.

I'm glad she's not. And why should she be?? Didn't her mom fall for Heracles??

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm glad she's not. And why should she be?? Didn't her mom fall for Heracles??

See, WW wouldn't matter to me. To me, it would make SENSE for her to be a lesbian, or bisexual. And then, it would be entertaining to me.

[sinewave]

24, while true, is contextual. How many of them do you see featured regularaly? Outside of Obsidian really?

true, but there's not a ton of strictly lesbian chicks, either. now that i read your previous post about complaining i'll just stop bothering with this. i didn't realize you were fem-darthphere. :dry:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, Dodge takes more after me anymore it seems. I was really a lot more like him, then he seemed to become that, then I had a mini breakdown. O.o

And here I am now.

And while you may not be "bothering" with this, I'll note the lack of what you mean by strickly lesbian chicks, when they're typecasted as lesbian, they STAY lesbian.

Don't blame me if you couldn't read what I said (quite clearly), and had to draw your own conclusions there, pardner.

[Memphis Slim]

Why is no one talking about the best part of this issue?? Namely the Adam Strange and Ralph Dibney parts.

To see Ralph so obssessed in his quest that he snatches off the wheel of the invalids chair?? the look on his face was priceless, as he realizes what he's done. And was that a preview of suicide at the end??? :wow:

And the nice save by the GLs of Strange and Kory was nice!! I did not expect that one!! Sweet!!!! :woot:

[LouFerignoDemon]

You didn't expect Green Lanterns to pop out of nowhere when they kept talking about Green Lanterns?

[yenaled]

I didn't expect Mogo to be in the comic when he was on the front cover. Not at all.

It was a great moment though.

Oh Mogo you sexy planet, you could kick Egos planet ass anytime.

[sinewave]

Actually, Dodge takes more after me anymore it seems. I was really a lot more like him, then he seemed to become that, then I had a mini breakdown. O.o

And here I am now.

And while you may not be "bothering" with this, I'll note the lack of what you mean by strickly lesbian chicks, when they're typecasted as lesbian, they STAY lesbian.

Don't blame me if you couldn't read what I said (quite clearly), and had to draw your own conclusions there, pardner.

what the hell are you talking about? how did you misconstrue what i said as negative? lose that chip on your shoulder.

[LouFerignoDemon]

There's nothing to lose. If you don't want to argue because you think I'm like Darthphere, then don't expect me to exactly respond all nice like, "Oh well! Tee hee!"

Especially if you totally missed the entire point of all of it. And even totally missed it again after I had that complaining post.

So excuse me if I go through the effort of clearly defining what I meant, only to have it not understood, and me not liking that.

[Memphis Slim]

I didn't expect Mogo to be in the comic when he was on the front cover. Not at all.

It was a great moment though.

Oh Mogo you sexy planet, you could kick Egos planet ass anytime.


Wow..Mogo was on the front cover....I just looked at it again.:dry: But that was still a cool rescue.

[Memphis Slim]

But I was totally expecting something to start up between Kory and Adam.

[mwm1331]

The hell? That's not even remotely close to being true.
So you agree with me then.
Excellent.
Less gays more blacks less gays more browns.

[Tropico]

Why do you have to reduce one so that there can be more of another?:confused:

[WompuM]

Mogo makes me hard.

[mwm1331]

Why do you have to reduce one so that there can be more of another?:confused:

Good question, its the rule of political correctness, you can only have a certain number of minorities in a title before you have to allow Reggie Hudlin to come in and turn them into gods who punk out your entire universe while spouting unitelligible politcal drivel. (Its a law) and no one wants that.

[yenaled]

Well if you have too many minorities they become a majority. Duh.

[sinewave]

There's nothing to lose. If you don't want to argue because you think I'm like Darthphere, then don't expect me to exactly respond all nice like, "Oh well! Tee hee!"

Especially if you totally missed the entire point of all of it. And even totally missed it again after I had that complaining post.

So excuse me if I go through the effort of clearly defining what I meant, only to have it not understood, and me not liking that.

well, both you and dp seem to ***** endlessly about everything so, yeah, you guys do act a lot alike. sorry if that offends you, but you obviously crave drama so i'm glad i can help you out with that. speaking of missing points, way to miss mine about "strictly lesibans" and "bothering". you're a barrel of fun, french gal. :whatever:

[Darthphere]

And was that a preview of suicide at the end??? :wow:

Where have you been? Dibny killed himself in the first issue.:whatever:

[yenaled]

Woo! Someone else is on the Ralph is dead bandwagon.

[Kebab gud]

remember people .. keep Ralph away from Babs ..
Ralph hates crippels..

[Darthphere]

well, both you and dp seem to ***** endlessly about everything so, yeah, you guys do act a lot alike.

Did I miss something here?:huh:

[sinewave]

Did I miss something here?:huh:

no, i've always given you **** about *****ing about everything under the sun and when MG went on her diatribe about how she likes complaining about everything, i made a joke about her being the fem-darthphere and she misunderstood the joke and freaked out. that's it. nothing to worry about.

[Darthphere]

no, i've always given you **** about *****ing about everything under the sun and when MG went on her diatribe about how she likes complaining about everything i made a joke about her being the fem-darthphere and she misunderstood the joke and freaked out. that's it. nothing to worry about.

You give me ****? Since when? You usually agree with me anyway. I have powahz!

[WompuM]

come on you to. if you keep this up leaguers gonna show up. and then if that keeps up GAHs gnna show up and no one wants that,.

[sinewave]

You give me ****? Since when? You usually agree with me anyway. I have powahz!

yeah, i have in the past. jokingly, of course. i do agree with you a lot of the time. except about hal jordan. :mad:

come on you to. if you keep this up leaguers gonna show up. and then if that keeps up GAHs gnna show up and no one wants that,.

good point.

[LouFerignoDemon]

well, both you and dp seem to ***** endlessly about everything so, yeah, you guys do act a lot alike. sorry if that offends you, but you obviously crave drama so i'm glad i can help you out with that. speaking of missing points, way to miss mine about "strictly lesibans" and "bothering". you're a barrel of fun, french gal. :whatever:

I don't crave drama at all. And your point was something called an out of context fragment, meaning it was introducing a technicality to an argument to derail it into a totally different argument. So I didn't miss the point, you left the argument.

[sinewave]

I don't crave drama at all. And your point was something called an out of context fragment, meaning it was introducing a technicality to an argument to derail it into a totally different argument. So I didn't miss the point, you left the argument.

which point and how was it out of context?

[LouFerignoDemon]

About it being strictly lesbians. We never defined that before, I was complaining about any lesbians (even bisexuals are generally referred to as lesbians when in lesbian relationships) and then you wanted to define it, changing the overall nature of my original complaint, saying I just didn't want. Since it was all about me not WANTING to see another lesbian character at the forefront. I didn't exactly give a damn about the count. All I said is it felt forced and gimmicky, and I'd like more gay men. Not that I wanted some balance or count. Or even technically who was a pure lesbian or not.