Why is Thor considered so powerful?

[Horrorfan]

I was thinking about this and for a god, he seems....I don't know...underwhelming.

I love the Ultimate version, not too familiar with the 616 version....
But I remember quite a lot of people saying Hercules would downright spank him in a straight up fist fight....that doesn't make him sound super powerful to me. and what kind of God needs some kind of suit to pick up a hammer?

The most impressive thing I have seen any thor do is in the ultimate comics, where he went to to toe with hulk for a little while at least, and a what if comic where he snapped Hulk's neck with minimal effort.

So he's kinda cool, but he's not as powerful as a god should be, imo....

[Harlekin]

I was thinking about this and for a god, he seems....I don't know...underwhelming.

I love the Ultimate version, not too familiar with the 616 version....
But I remember quite a lot of people saying Hercules would downright spank him in a straight up fist fight....that doesn't make him sound super powerful to me. and what kind of God needs some kind of suit to pick up a hammer?

The most impressive thing I have seen any thor do is in the ultimate comics, where he went to to toe with hulk for a little while at least, and a what if comic where he snapped Hulk's neck with minimal effort.

So he's kinda cool, but he's not as powerful as a god should be, imo....
Hercules is one of the strongest characters of Marvel, and Thor doesn't need a suit to carry his hammer. Have you even read the 616 comics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_%28comics%29
Educate yourself first.

[PhotoJones]

I was thinking about this and for a god, he seems....I don't know...underwhelming.

I love the Ultimate version, not too familiar with the 616 version....
But I remember quite a lot of people saying Hercules would downright spank him in a straight up fist fight....that doesn't make him sound super powerful to me. and what kind of God needs some kind of suit to pick up a hammer?

The most impressive thing I have seen any thor do is in the ultimate comics, where he went to to toe with hulk for a little while at least, and a what if comic where he snapped Hulk's neck with minimal effort.

So he's kinda cool, but he's not as powerful as a god should be, imo....

first of all, thor does not need a "suit" to pick up his hammer. anyone can pick up thor's hammer...so long as they're worthy.
secondly, yes, herc probably would spank thor in a fistfight. he's stronger. thor's more powerful. he can call down a storm of lightning. that's not a fistfight. get it?

[Horrorfan]

Hercules is one of the strongest characters of Marvel, and Thor doesn't need a suit to carry his hammer. Have you even read the 616 comics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_%28comics%29
Educate yourself first.


Thor The Norse God does.....and the Ultimate version seems to be closer (plus dresses cooler too).

But Hercules (AFAIK) isn't anywhere near Hulk like strength, and he was an accident, not a god.....and Thor snapped Hulk's neck, which makes me believe he must be on at least the same kinda level...

[Harlekin]

Thor The Norse God does.....and the Ultimate version seems to be closer (plus dresses cooler too).

But Hercules (AFAIK) isn't anywhere near Hulk like strength, and he was an accident, not a god.....and Thor snapped Hulk's neck, which makes me believe he must be on at least the same kinda level...
Thor the Norse God also has red hair. They are not the same character, just like the Ultimate version and the Norse God aren't the same.

Hercules is a god, and has class 100 strength, just like the Hulk and Thor. Seriously, read the article. You are really underestimating Thor's power, although you've apparently read nothing with him in it.

[PhotoJones]

Thor The Norse God does.....and the Ultimate version seems to be closer (plus dresses cooler too).

But Hercules (AFAIK) isn't anywhere near Hulk like strength, and he was an accident, not a god.....and Thor snapped Hulk's neck, which makes me believe he must be on at least the same kinda level...

hulk's strength is up for debate for several reasons:

1. depends on which hulk you're talking about (savage hulk, smart hulk, etc.)
2. ever heard the phrase "the madder hulk gets, the stronger hulk gets"?

[CaptainStacy]

Thor The Norse God does.....and the Ultimate version seems to be closer (plus dresses cooler too).

But Hercules (AFAIK) isn't anywhere near Hulk like strength, and he was an accident, not a god.....and Thor snapped Hulk's neck, which makes me believe he must be on at least the same kinda level...

The Thor neck-snapping incident was a What If? tale.

Normal continuity Hulk has had his neck snapped on at least two occasions (off the top of my head), and that hasn't killed him.

[Genesis 1.0]

Getting out muscled by Herc is hardly anything to qualify a character as 'not so impressive'. That's like going to the DC side of things and saying, 'well HE was overpowered by Superman, guess he's not so impressive.'

[Horrorfan]

Fair enough, I didn't know that much about the 616 powers. But he doesn't seem to be that powerful for a God. Also I thought Hercules, though a son of a God, was just a super strong human, not like Thor who is the God of Thunder.

So basically, would Thor be able to stand up to Hulk and Superman? I have always wondered that....If Sentry could, I figure Thor could too, being a God and al.

But I do admit having read very little of the 616 Thor, I probably have underestimated his powers.

What about King Thor?

And I count the what if comics because they aren't 616 but they are a marvel universe, just not the regular one.

[Kurosawa]

All of Marvel's class 100 characters are roughly equals in terms of strength. What seperates them is stuff like Hulk's rage, Hercules slyness, etc. In the case of Thor, he's a much more skilled fighter than the other Marvel strongmen, similar to the thing. but Thor has trained and fought in hundreds of thousands of battles over thousands of years. His skill and experience are pretty tough to match.

Plus his various energy manipulation powers/teleportstion powers, etc, that he generates with the hammer (and can generate some of them without it) are pretty potent. And he has complete control of the weather. Although characters like Sentry and Hyperion are direct rip-offs of Superman, Thor has always been seen as Marvel's counterpart to Superman-similar but not exactly the same and not a rip-off.

Ultimate Thor is nothing compared to Earth 616 Thor.

Thor and Hulk were always portrayed as being equals in the classic Marvel Universe, until comic book fight scenes became popularity contests. Written correctly, their fights come to a stalemate.

King Thor is signifantly more powerful than regular Thor.

[Genesis 1.0]

1.) Thor is NOT a Superman rip off, that Norse myth was around waaaaay before comics were even a concept. The powers he's been given fit that myth to a T, so no dice.

As for the rest, Thor's abilities put him on a level much higher than Hercules, they're only comprable in strength, other than that Thor is way over his head. King Thor? Heh, man's as high as Pre Crisis Supes is over Post Crisis.

[wobbly]

Thor and Hulk were always portrayed as being equals in the classic Marvel Universe, until comic book fight scenes became popularity contests. Written correctly, their fights come to a stalemate.

That's one thing I've wondered about a little down the years: Even very early on Thor & the Hulk were considered roughly equal in strengh, with the Thing & Namor a little ways behind. But both the Hulk & Thing have had their strength boosted vastly from those early days, explained in continuity as an evolution of their transformations (ie, Rocky plated Thing can wipe the floor with his earlier lumpy self) but afaik Thor & Namor have never received power-ups themselves to keep up? If not how the hell can they even last five seconds against the thing, let alone the Hulk?

If they have never explained this I guess the likes of Thor & Namor having their strengths similarly increased is just one of those things we fans should take for granted.

[Kurosawa]

Characters like Hulk and Thing got power upgrades because they were popular and in the mid-80's Marvel began to make their fights less a matter of what characters were established as being able to do and more just a stupid popularity contest.

And Thor did get a major power upgrade with the King Thor storyline. Although to be honest, if he recieved Odin's full power in addition to his own, then he'd be more in the Galactus/Mephisto class. Under Kirby, Odin was Galactus equal and was more powerful than Mephisto. Later writers retconed away this power level for the same "popularity contest" reasons I stated before.

[GNR]

Whoever called Thor a Superman rip-off is just stupid.Really.

[TheSumOfGod]

Yeah. Thor is clearly a Green Lantern rip-off. Power ring, magical hammer, same thing. ;)

[wobbly]

Characters like Hulk and Thing got power upgrades because they were popular and in the mid-80's Marvel began to make their fights less a matter of what characters were established as being able to do and more just a stupid popularity contest.

And Thor did get a major power upgrade with the King Thor storyline. Although to be honest, if he recieved Odin's full power in addition to his own, then he'd be more in the Galactus/Mephisto class. Under Kirby, Odin was Galactus equal and was more powerful than Mephisto. Later writers retconed away this power level for the same "popularity contest" reasons I stated before.

If the Hulk & Things strengths' were boosted due to popularity issues I don't follow how that then accounts for Thor having been given an unexplained power-up to keep up? (I know about King Thor but he was still able to go toe to toe against a class 100 savage Green Hulk, without his belt of strength or Gauntlets even before that).

And afaik the Hulk & Thor have never had a fight finish with a clear winner (unless you count 'What-Ifs' & the future King Thor's killing him) so that much at least has stayed consistent regardless of whoever is the more popular (the Thing finally did get to deck the Gray Hulk a while back, but that was his pineapple boosted self).

[PhotoJones]

i think the point here is that hulk and thor and hercules are all very powerful characters. does it matter who could beat whom on a given day?

[Ultimate Doom]

Thor is a god, thats why he is so powerful.

[Horrorfan]

What was the what if tale where King Thor killed Hulk?


Also the guy never called Thor a superman rip off- he said he was like Marvel's closest comparison to Supes, not a rip off in any way, shape or form, just in that superman has godlike powers and thor is, well, a god (why is why I maintain he could beat supes).

Another guy I have read NOTHING about is Namor.....I don't get why he's so powerful, but I guess that's just my predjudice since I can't take him too seriously for some reason. Has he ever been beaten/killed (in what ifs as well?). I read a Ult. FF4 Arc where he owned most of the heroes.

[wobbly]

What was the what if tale where King Thor killed Hulk?

Also the guy never called Thor a superman rip off- he said he was like Marvel's closest comparison to Supes, not a rip off in any way, shape or form, just in that superman has godlike powers and thor is, well, a god (why is why I maintain he could beat supes).

Another guy I have read NOTHING about is Namor.....I don't get why he's so powerful, but I guess that's just my predjudice since I can't take him too seriously for some reason. Has he ever been beaten/killed (in what ifs as well?). I read a Ult. FF4 Arc where he owned most of the heroes.

Thor has killed the Hulk twice afaik; once in "What if the Hulk went beserk?" (snapped his neck) and again in his own title when they jumped into the nearish future of King Thor's reign and he was shown after a unseen battle standing over the (presumably) dead bodies of the Thing & The Hulk (the Hulk looked to have been impaled by a big tree I think). Should also note another story implied the Hulk had returned the favor in another possible timeline (Future Imperfect). But as far as current continuity goes I think it still stands that the two could go at each other pretty much indefinitely.

[Steve_Rogers]

They've hinted he will return in Civil War (We know his hammer does). What I want to know is how powerful he'll be if he does.

[PhotoJones]

They've hinted he will return in Civil War (We know his hammer does). What I want to know is how powerful he'll be if he does.

i'm sure there'll be a fanboy induced fight between thor and the sentry somewhere in there.

[32CAGE]

Thor is a god, thats why he is so powerful.


Agreed--------------

[Vanguard07]

Namor's not hard to figure out in terms of why he's powerful. His people live at the bottom of the ocean. Being able to survive that water pressure alone, much less being able to move around, you'd have to be incredibly invulnerable and strong. and Namor's people live on ocean bottom as easilly as we do on the surface. That'd have to put him in the hundred range.
I never understood the wings on his feet though.

And btw I dont believe that Herc'd take thor in a fistfight. They're even in strength (they armwrestled on the top of a mountain once and the mountain exploded) and skill and experience. Thor's a full god while Herc's only half god so i'm inclined to believe he'd wear Herc out or something

[Guyverjay]

Depending at what point you take Herc, he's fully immortal just like any other olympian. He invented wrestling and is a damn expert hand to hand, I'd say Herc takes it in a fist fight.

[Thundergod777]

Thor is easily more powerful and stronger than any other Marvel character. During "The Reigning" final arc Thor, without the Odinpower killed both the Hulk and the Thing without one arm or his hammer! I doubt Hercules, as cool as he is, could accomplish that feat.
Furthermore, Thor always holds his strength waaay back because he's become accustomed to living among humans.

[Guyverjay]

Oh please that was the biggest load of crap going. Bad writing and you know it. Hulk by himself has battered Thor black and blue, yet Thor with ONE ARM and no hammer kills Hulk and Thing by himself? LOL

Hulk got killed by a piece of wood for petes sake:rolleyes:

Even Corp, the biggest Thor fanboy on the hype admits that was ridiculous

Herc is a better fighter hand to hand that Thor can ever hope to be

[LobokDaikon]

Whoever called Thor a Superman rip-off is just stupid.Really.

Not a rip-off no, but Stan probably used him so that they'd have a Superman-type character.

[Warhammer]

Thor is a god, thats why he is so powerful.

Yes sir.

[Anubis]

... :rolleyes:

[The Question]

Oh please that was the biggest load of crap going. Bad writing and you know it. Hulk by himself has battered Thor black and blue, yet Thor with ONE ARM and no hammer kills Hulk and Thing by himself? LOL

Hulk got killed by a piece of wood for petes sake:rolleyes:

Even Corp, the biggest Thor fanboy on the hype admits that was ridiculous

Herc is a better fighter hand to hand that Thor can ever hope to be



1. He said Thor with Odinpower. With the Odin power, Thor contained exploding nuclear missiles in his hand like it was nothing.

2. Herc is not necesairily a better fighter. He's a highly skilled warrior, but Thor is much more of a soldier/warrior than Herculese. Herc tends to spend alot of time getting drunk and banging nymphs.


EDIT: Nevermind number one. I just read that it said "without Odinpower".

[GNR]

Not a rip-off no, but Stan probably used him so that they'd have a Superman-type character.

Unless you are Stan Lee,your comment is nothing but assumption.

[BrianWilly]

During "The Reigning" final arc Thor, without the Odinpower killed both the Hulk and the Thing without one arm or his hammer! I doubt Hercules, as cool as he is, could accomplish that feat.I'm pretty sure Thor had the Odinpower during "The Reigning.":confused:

[Doombringer]

I agree, i dont neccessarily believe Herc to be the better fighter of the two just because he 'invented wrestling', etc. Like someone already mentioned Thor has been in countless of battles to the death repeatedly over a span of thousands of years... i would tend to believe, realistically, that one such warrior god would be more than capable to defeat Herc in a battle that wasnt to the death. And fully Immortal or not, Herc will never be a god on the level Thor is.

[TheCorpulent1]

1. He said Thor with Odinpower. With the Odin power, Thor contained exploding nuclear missiles in his hand like it was nothing.

2. Herc is not necesairily a better fighter. He's a highly skilled warrior, but Thor is much more of a soldier/warrior than Herculese. Herc tends to spend alot of time getting drunk and banging nymphs.


EDIT: Nevermind number one. I just read that it said "without Odinpower".
Yeah, Thor had the Odinpower blocked by a necklace Dr. Strange had gotten on him. That was a really bad fight all around. I chalk it up to the fact that Jurgens had to basically tell the story of how Thor got rid of all the heroes of Earth in one issue AND include a whole story of Balder's betrayal and everything alongside it. Any Thor/Hulk fight should take about an issue or more to be done well, let alone a Thor/Hulk/Thing fight.

As for Hercules' fighting ability, I'd say he's got the upper hand on Thor in pure wrestling/fistfighting. Thor uses Mjolnir about 99.9% of the time. Fighting without it is kind of alien to him because Mjolnir is practically another appendage to him at this point. Plus Hercules has just as much experience as Thor does, given that they've both lived for thousands of years, and while Hercules does tend to cavort drunkenly a lot, remember that in the Greek legends he's described as one of the fiercest warriors ever. Achilles is supposed to be the absolute greatest warrior ever, based on what I've read concerning the myths, but Hercules isn't far behind him. Recall also that before gaining a greater degree of humility from his time as Don Blake, Marvel's Thor wasn't as different from the mythological Thor as he is now. He drank and lazed about a lot, too. It's not like the giants were banging on Asgard's door literally every second of every day for the last few millennia.

Also, while Herc may lack the overall power of Thor, he is at least as physically strong as Thor. That's been shown in the comics on several occasions. Coupled with his similar fighting experience and, in my opinion, greater unarmed fighting skill, I don't have a problem with Hercules beating him in a one-on-one with no weapons. Thor doesn't have to be the best at everything. I take solace in the fact that, fighting with all of their respective powers at their disposal, Thor would leave Herc little more than a bunch of bloody, immortal chunks on the battlefield. :D

[Silicon Surfer]

Properly written Thor and Hercules even without weapons should be able to kill the Hulk with ease. both of them have reflexes and agility in the superhuman class, far greater than the Hulk who is not even peak human. their reflexes should be 5-10 times as fast as the Hulk. The Hulk should never even land a blow. It doesn't matter how angry and strong he gets, if the Hulk can't hit him he can't win.

[Harlekin]

I think you should refresh your knowledge on the Hulk. He does have superhuman reflexes and agility. He's capable of knocking down speedsters like Quicksilver.

[Silicon Surfer]

Since my local comic shop closed 3 or 4 years ago I haven't seen much new stuff but before that He definately did not have suprhuman reflexes. The Last official word from Marvel that I have seen is the Master Edition of the Handbook producd some years ago. They officially listed the Hulks reflexes and agility as in the athlete class. The next categories up were: peak human, enhanced human( Wolverine ), superhuman (Thor, Hercules), metahuman (Spiderman).Any superhuman reflexes he may have now must have been obtained in the last few years.

[Harlekin]

How do you define the 'last few years'? The Quicksilver incident I believe is from somewhere around the eighties. I've been looking around for the issues and scans, but someone else will probably be able to supply you with the info.

[Silicon Surfer]

If I read the incident I don't recall it. Most likely they simply had Hulk do something he was not capable of. It is a sad fact that it occurs all too often.The Handbook entry I refered to above was dated 1991 and specifically states that his refexes as of that time were not superhuman. I have never been more than a casual follower of the Hulk and what they have done in the last say 5 or 6 years I don't know.

[Ahura Mazda]

First off, the Hulk has been shown to have reflexes in the super human range. And as he gets angrier all his abilities increase. If that was not the case, the Hulk would just be a more powerful version of rhino or any other creature with just super strength.

Second of all, in mythology Heracles or Hercules died because of a poisonned robe and he immolated himself. Zeus, his father took the immortal part fo him and brought him to Olympus. The mortal part went to Hades. Therefore the 616 version is the god and not the mortal Hercules.

Third the fight where king Thor killed the Hulk and others was done in about one panel and I have to agree with all the above, it was very badly done. The story line was great though.

[Advocate05]

Why does this thread still have legs? Thor is a god plain and simple. With or without Mjolnir Thor is powerful. He may not have godlike powers without the Mighty Mjolnir, but he is still a powerful dude. He's not overrated like this thread suggests and to make matters worse. I read the first page a few days ago and the creator of the thread didn't know a heck of alot about Thor to begin with ... so again ... why does this thread still exist?

[Horrorfan]

Why does this thread still have legs? Thor is a god plain and simple. With or without Mjolnir Thor is powerful. He may not have godlike powers without the Mighty Mjolnir, but he is still a powerful dude. He's not overrated like this thread suggests and to make matters worse. I read the first page a few days ago and the creator of the thread didn't know a heck of alot about Thor to begin with ... so again ... why does this thread still exist?


But he doesn't seem very powerful to me, for a god. I know he is powerful, and has a lot of power, but for a god he seemed a little....lacking. But I guess that's down to my perception of what god like powers are.

[bkhedr]

Why does this thread still have legs? Thor is a god plain and simple. With or without Mjolnir Thor is powerful. He may not have godlike powers without the Mighty Mjolnir, but he is still a powerful dude. He's not overrated like this thread suggests and to make matters worse. I read the first page a few days ago and the creator of the thread didn't know a heck of alot about Thor to begin with ... so again ... why does this thread still exist?

As I understand it he's the God of Thunder and has innate weather control abilities even without Mjolnir

[Xofenroht]

You know, this is exactly why people have problems with the Ultimate titles. Those who hardly ever pick up a 616 book walk into or start conversations like this one without the slightest idea of what they're talking about. It's just like when the cartoons were out.

[bkhedr]

You make a good point but I hardly think its fair to blame the Ultimates for people's lack of knowledge.

If anything I think this is a good thing. It shows that people who werent interested in comics and had never read them were pulled in by the Ultimate books enough that they started asking questions about 616

Next step: Reading some 616 :D

[Horrorfan]

You know, this is exactly why people have problems with the Ultimate titles. Those who hardly ever pick up a 616 book walk into or start conversations like this one without the slightest idea of what they're talking about. It's just like when the cartoons were out.


I love the normal marvel universe, always have- at least x men. Avengers, including Thor, always seemed really dull and boring to me for some reason, untill The Ultimates came along and made those characters FINALLY interesting with kick ass cinematic style stories.


But if Hulk has had Thor in stalemates, he is NOT as powerful as a god should be imo.

[bkhedr]

but the Hulk is the stongest one there is :mad:

stalemating him is no small feat

[Horrorfan]

but the Hulk is the stongest one there is :mad:

Oh Hulk is helluva strong- but should he really be on the level of a god?

To me, a god should be probably the (or one of if there are many gods) most powerful being around by a long margin, not being taken to a draw by a freak accident of nature.

[Advocate05]

I am sorry for coming off like an ass. I understand what you mean about ..
But he doesn't seem very powerful to me, for a god.
But if you look at past issues of Thor ... like REAL old ones. Thor is hard to take down. And I remember one ish where him and Hulk square off(I have it, but I'm at work.) Hulk beats hhim bad, but it comes to a stalemate. Once Thor's (damn I forget what its called.) Anger kicked in he and Hulk were just pounding each other and nothing. And Thor dropped the hammer ... didn't use it once Hulk said ... "Thor weak without hammer." Oh yeah it was Thor 385. Hulk claimed victory, and Thor was beaten and battered.

[Horrorfan]

I am sorry for coming off like an ass. I understand what you mean about ..

But if you look at past issues of Thor ... like REAL old ones. Thor is hard to take down. And I remember one ish where him and Hulk square off(I have it, but I'm at work.) Hulk beats hhim bad, but it comes to a stalemate. Once Thor's (damn I forget what its called.) Anger kicked in he and Hulk were just pounding each other and nothing. And Thor dropped the hammer ... didn't use it once Hulk said ... "Thor weak without hammer." Oh yeah it was Thor 385. Hulk claimed victory, and Thor was beaten and battered.

Not your fault, I probably should have phased it that way in the first place!

[Mr. Green]

But if Hulk has had Thor in stalemates, he is NOT as powerful as a god should be imo.
But you think Ultimate Thor IS? :confused:

616 Hulk would kill all of the Ultimates including Ultimate Thor and Ultimate Hulk.

Hulk has unlimited strength. Thor is a badass and has come close to beating a Banner Hulk in a Thor issue.

Read Thor: Disassembled.

[Genesis 1.0]

616 Hulk would kill all of the Ultimates including Ultimate Thor and Ultimate Hulk.



Heh, could you say that again? I think I had something crazy in my ear. If you really believe this then I have some lovely ocean property to sell you....in Nevada.:o

[Xofenroht]

Oh Hulk is helluva strong- but should he really be on the level of a god?

To me, a god should be probably the (or one of if there are many gods) most powerful being around by a long margin, not being taken to a draw by a freak accident of nature.

Well, you do know that each god is different? Just because the gods seem all powerful in one pantheon doesn't mean that they will be in the next. There have been freaks of nature to conquer gods before, Hulk isn't the only one.

[Horrorfan]

I didn't say ultimate Thor was more powerful? I just said I have see him do impressive things...and also, the Hulk was defeated by the ultimates but it was an awesome battle.

But I was speaking from my own view on what a god is....I guess to me those type of gods who could be conqured by beasts like the Hulk or freak or whatever you wanna call it is a 'lesser god', more like super human rather than all powerful entity.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor is actually quite powerful for a comic book character. He's easily one of the most powerful in the Marvel universe when he's written as well as he should be, right up there with the Silver Surfer and others of that caliber. I think you're overestimating what a god (with a lower-case "g") should be. Thor's easily one of the most powerful comic book gods around when you measure him against Marvel's Ares, Hercules, Balder, or pretty much any other god. He doesn't wield total control over the forces of life and death or anything (unless he's the beefed-up version of King Thor from the "Ragnarok" storyline) but he's still a virtual juggernaut in terms of his weight class.

The reason the Hulk gets to stalemate Thor has to do with context. Thor is a warrior god from a warrior race. He holds honor in combat in extremely high regard, which translates to his fighting an opponent on roughly equal ground. Hulk believes he's the strongest one there is; in Thor's mind, that means Thor has to pit his own strength against the Hulk, not the full breadth of his powers against the Hulk's single power of strength. Thor could easily sap the gamma energy out of the Hulk with Mjolnir and turn him back into Banner, just as the Surfer did in a couple of their fights. But that would be dishonorable in Thor's mind. When the Hulk tells Thor to throw Mjolnir away or otherwise disable it because he's not being fair, Thor doesn't call the Hulk on what a little girl he's being; he complies and willfully neglects using Mjolnir for that fight. That's the way Thor operates. When he's got all of his powers focused on an enemy, he's well beyond the Hulk, who's basically a one-trick pony (albeit a really good one) with pure strength and brute force. Thor can approach the Hulk's strength (though he can't match it except in some extreme circumstances), AND he's also got an array of powers versatile enough to match a herald of Galactus. If that's not powerful to you, I'm curious to know what is.

Also, Thor's had varying degrees of super-speed and reflexes. Back in the Silver Age, he demonstrated extreme super-speed, like on the level of Superman and his ilk. Since then, however, he's gradually decreased in speed until he's now roughly around Spider-Man's level in reflexes, speed, etc. He's still capable of flying beyond light speed with Mjolnir (or the Odinpower if we're talking King Thor), though. Unfortunately, travel speed doesn't equate to reflex speed.

[Horrorfan]

Thor is actually quite powerful for a comic book character. He's easily one of the most powerful in the Marvel universe when he's written as well as he should be, right up there with the Silver Surfer and others of that caliber. I think you're overestimating what a god (with a lower-case "g") should be. Thor's easily one of the most powerful comic book gods around when you measure him against Marvel's Ares, Hercules, Balder, or pretty much any other god. He doesn't wield total control over the forces of life and death or anything (unless he's the beefed-up version of King Thor from the "Ragnarok" storyline) but he's still a virtual juggernaut in terms of his weight class.

The reason the Hulk gets to stalemate Thor has to do with context. Thor is a warrior god from a warrior race. He holds honor in combat in extremely high regard, which translates to his fighting an opponent on roughly equal ground. Hulk believes he's the strongest one there is; in Thor's mind, that means Thor has to pit his own strength against the Hulk, not the full breadth of his powers against the Hulk's single power of strength. Thor could easily sap the gamma energy out of the Hulk with Mjolnir and turn him back into Banner, just as the Surfer did in a couple of their fights. But that would be dishonorable in Thor's mind. When the Hulk tells Thor to throw Mjolnir away or otherwise disable it because he's not being fair, Thor doesn't call the Hulk on what a little girl he's being; he complies and willfully neglects using Mjolnir for that fight. That's the way Thor operates. When he's got all of his powers focused on an enemy, he's well beyond the Hulk, who's basically a one-trick pony (albeit a really good one) with pure strength and brute force. Thor can approach the Hulk's strength (though he can't match it except in some extreme circumstances), AND he's also got an array of powers versatile enough to match a herald of Galactus. If that's not powerful to you, I'm curious to know what is.

Also, Thor's had varying degrees of super-speed and reflexes. Back in the Silver Age, he demonstrated extreme super-speed, like on the level of Superman and his ilk. Since then, however, he's gradually decreased in speed until he's now roughly around Spider-Man's level in reflexes, speed, etc. He's still capable of flying beyond light speed with Mjolnir (or the Odinpower if we're talking King Thor), though. Unfortunately, travel speed doesn't equate to reflex speed.

That was a good post. I just thought gods couldn't die either. Although he does come back a lot too. Now to get all fan boy on those with more knowledge on both than me; who takes it, Supes or Thor? Not a fist fight, but all out power battle.

[TheCorpulent1]

Norse gods can die. The reasoning behind it is actually the linchpin of the "Ragnarok" arc that ended Thor's last series, in fact. Think of it this way: as I mentioned, Thor is a warrior god and the Norse gods are a warrior race. What good is a warrior who goes into battle knowing he's not risking anything? The Norse gods need to be able to die in order to be the Norse gods, basically.

If we're talking about all of the characters' respective powers, as they stand in their most recognizable forms, I'd give it to Superman about 6 times out of 10. The only reason for that is his speed. Super-speed is one of the absolute most potent abilities in a fight. Superman has it; Thor doesn't. It's as simple as that, really. I've seen people argue ways around the super-speed problem, but my line of thought is still basically that although Supes has a weakness to magic and Thor packs magic power to spare, Thor's still gotta hit Superman with those magic blasts, which is no small feat with the huge, gaping chasm of a speed difference that exists between them.

If we're talking about the most recent, empowered incarnations of each character, meaning the present Superman just before he lost his powers in Infinite Crisis and King Thor before he "died" at the end of "Ragnarok," Thor would take it 10 times out of 10. Hell, probably 11 times out of 10, just 'cause Thor said so. He dropped his honor schtick and gained practically inconceivable magic power, so Superman would basically stand no chance whatsoever.

[Genesis 1.0]

When the Hulk tells Thor to throw Mjolnir away or otherwise disable it because he's not being fair, Thor doesn't call the Hulk on what a little girl he's being; he complies and willfully neglects using Mjolnir for that fight.


:up: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Nice hidden dig there. On that other note, it says that Thor is on Hulk's strength level on base.

[KingOfDreams]

I love the Ultimate version, not too familiar with the 616 version

I think I die a little inside when I read statements like this.

[Horrorfan]

I think I die a little inside when I read statements like this.

Yeah I am sorry I like a well written cinematic comic with lots of political intrigue :(



But this Ragnarock storyline sounds cool...is it out already in tpb?

[wobbly]

Heh, could you say that again? I think I had something crazy in my ear. If you really believe this then I have some lovely ocean property to sell you....in Nevada.:o

According to the 'official' strength levels given to the Ultimate strong-guys, the 616 versions are around 8 to 10 times stronger, so saying 616 Hulk could wipe the floor with them isn't a bad assessment based on that. Of course this is still up in the air until they really do meet (the zombieverse storyline doesnt count). Only a matter of time until they do, especially as that Zombie storyline has easilly opened up the door for a future crossover.

[TheSumOfGod]

I think I die a little inside when I read statements like this.

I love the Ultimate version, never even heard of the 616 version. What does "616" mean anyway?

Dead yet? ;)

[KingOfDreams]

Yeah I am sorry I like a well written cinematic comic with lots of political intrigue :(



But this Ragnarock storyline sounds cool...is it out already in tpb?

I'm not exactly faulting you for what you like but it saddens me when people know more about the Ultimate books/characters than they do the 616 books/characters. It's partially Marvel's fault I guess. I've never really liked the Ultimate books because by and large it's all stuff I've already seen tweaked a bit. And I know Ultimates is supposed to be fairly different but I've read a couple issues in the shop and it's never grabbed me. Anyway, Ragnorak is in tpb.

[Horrorfan]

I'm not exactly faulting you for what you like but it saddens me when people know more about the Ultimate books/characters than they do the 616 books/characters. It's partially Marvel's fault I guess. I've never really liked the Ultimate books because by and large it's all stuff I've already seen tweaked a bit. And I know Ultimates is supposed to be fairly different but I've read a couple issues in the shop and it's never grabbed me. Anyway, Ragnorak is in tpb.


I know you weren't but the thing is, to me, in the 616 (and to be honest, I have read marvel for well over a decade and still don't know why it is called that on the net) universe, not all the characters are that interesting.

I loved Ultimate, because it put a new, modern spin on things that made it simply more relevant to today's society. We live in a different world to what it was when the 616 universe was created, and these titles reflect that. I am not saying it's better or worse, but the fact is, it got people interested in Marvel again. It got me back into reading after a few years of absense after I got tired of over convoluted stories that relied too much on the past events. Not honouring them, but having to be careful over every detail, and requiring years worth of backstory to get the best out of them.

In the MU, the Avengers seemed too DC-ised to me....ie bunch of guys in spandex beating up supervillains who all got along in a cushy mansion, were loved by the public and had a butler even. That is unfair of me, since I never read it, and it might not be like that at all...but thats how it seeemed to me.

But the Ultimates came along and made me go WOW. It had everything. Political intrigue that was very much a sign of the times we live in, giving it a much deeper level that I felt the Avengers probably didn't have before, as opposed to X Men, which always had more under the surface. I LOVE that the Team are more or less estranged, with different relationships all barely held together by the government paycheck. I love that Fury isn't a clean cut good guy. I love that the team could be Government lackeys (I havent read the last arc, probably wont till the TPB). I love the fact that they added things that are actually in character with the 616 versions (for example, I could so see Thor being pissed at Bush over the enviroment, and being a laid back beer guzzler who digs groupies, and I could see Cap as a very fair guy but who has steel morals and a bad ass attitude when needed). I love that Banner became the hulk again out of insecurity. It's the touches that ground it in reality and make them INTERESTING.

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but I'm tired of the stigma that because it came first, 616 is automatically inferior. It isn't that way at all, and if it got people interested in comics again, or for me, reintroduced me to them , it can't be a bad thing at all.

[Whirlysplat]

Thor is actually quite powerful for a comic book character. He's easily one of the most powerful in the Marvel universe when he's written as well as he should be, right up there with the Silver Surfer and others of that caliber. I think you're overestimating what a god (with a lower-case "g") should be. Thor's easily one of the most powerful comic book gods around when you measure him against Marvel's Ares, Hercules, Balder, or pretty much any other god. He doesn't wield total control over the forces of life and death or anything (unless he's the beefed-up version of King Thor from the "Ragnarok" storyline) but he's still a virtual juggernaut in terms of his weight class.

The reason the Hulk gets to stalemate Thor has to do with context. Thor is a warrior god from a warrior race. He holds honor in combat in extremely high regard, which translates to his fighting an opponent on roughly equal ground. Hulk believes he's the strongest one there is; in Thor's mind, that means Thor has to pit his own strength against the Hulk, not the full breadth of his powers against the Hulk's single power of strength. Thor could easily sap the gamma energy out of the Hulk with Mjolnir and turn him back into Banner, just as the Surfer did in a couple of their fights. But that would be dishonorable in Thor's mind. When the Hulk tells Thor to throw Mjolnir away or otherwise disable it because he's not being fair, Thor doesn't call the Hulk on what a little girl he's being; he complies and willfully neglects using Mjolnir for that fight. That's the way Thor operates. When he's got all of his powers focused on an enemy, he's well beyond the Hulk, who's basically a one-trick pony (albeit a really good one) with pure strength and brute force. Thor can approach the Hulk's strength (though he can't match it except in some extreme circumstances), AND he's also got an array of powers versatile enough to match a herald of Galactus. If that's not powerful to you, I'm curious to know what is.

Also, Thor's had varying degrees of super-speed and reflexes. Back in the Silver Age, he demonstrated extreme super-speed, like on the level of Superman and his ilk. Since then, however, he's gradually decreased in speed until he's now roughly around Spider-Man's level in reflexes, speed, etc. He's still capable of flying beyond light speed with Mjolnir (or the Odinpower if we're talking King Thor), though. Unfortunately, travel speed doesn't equate to reflex speed.

Very good post indeed, except for the speed issue, yes he was faster but not Supes level. Really Thor himself has few powers, its that damn hammer of his that is so versatile. I know he can control Weather without it, but, it makes it easier and then we have all it's other Space and time tricks etc. Thors biggest power is his Godforce blast which has even given pause to Galactus.

:supes: - Whirly

[Anubis]

I know you weren't but the thing is, to me, in the 616 (and to be honest, I have read marvel for well over a decade and still don't know why it is called that on the net)....

616 is the designated number of the regular Marvel Universe. This was revealed in Alan Moore's Captain Britain run. The MU is universe 616. There are many theorys as to why they chose this number. Sign of the devil, date of first ish of Fantastic Four, but I believe Alan Moore said he just chose a big number at random to show how insignigicant the universe is or some such. So, people refur to the regular MU as 616 because it's faster to type than, the regular Marvel Universe or whatever.

[Genesis 1.0]

According to the 'official' strength levels given to the Ultimate strong-guys, the 616 versions are around 8 to 10 times stronger, so saying 616 Hulk could wipe the floor with them isn't a bad assessment based on that. Of course this is still up in the air until they really do meet (the zombieverse storyline doesnt count). Only a matter of time until they do, especially as that Zombie storyline has easilly opened up the door for a future crossover.

Heh, if strength was the only element that decided a battle, there really wouldn't be an Avengers based on the guys they face, not to mention the FF4 taking down Galactus. In any case, The Ultimates being beaten by 616 Hulk alone is highly inprobable and comes off smacking of 'fanboy'. As to the ratings in themselves, considering how long the Ultimate Universe has been around, that's hardly a large margin considering how long 616 has been in existence. As to that ratio, I doubt 616 Rhino or Colossus is 8 to 10 times better than his respective Ultimate couterpart, so that's just a broad, generalized estimation. I would compare the other characters but your specified 'strong guys'.

[TheCorpulent1]

Very good post indeed, except for the speed issue, yes he was faster but not Supes level. Really Thor himself has few powers, its that damn hammer of his that is so versatile. I know he can control Weather without it, but, it makes it easier and then we have all it's other Space and time tricks etc. Thors biggest power is his Godforce blast which has even given pause to Galactus.

:supes: - Whirly
True. Good thing he can will Mjolnir to return to him. ;)

Also, his speed was very close to Superman's current level. There were numerous mentions in comics that he was "as fast as the lightning he commands." Lightning travels somewhere around 90,000 miles per second, as far as I recall, which is pretty close to the speed of light. I think I've heard Superman's current top speed is about 145,000 miles per second. Not quite as fast, but still close enough that I'd give Thor a majority of their fights if he were still capable of moving and reacting at that speed.

[Vanguard07]

Heh, if strength was the only element that decided a battle, there really wouldn't be an Avengers based on the guys they face, not to mention the FF4 taking down Galactus. In any case, The Ultimates being beaten by 616 Hulk alone is highly inprobable and comes off smacking of 'fanboy'. As to the ratings in themselves, considering how long the Ultimate Universe has been around, that's hardly a large margin considering how long 616 has been in existence. As to that ratio, I doubt 616 Rhino or Colossus is 8 to 10 times better than his respective Ultimate couterpart, so that's just a broad, generalized estimation. I would compare the other characters but your specified 'strong guys'.

He was making that "8-10 times stronger" statement based on the official strength levels. He wasnt just fanboying it up.
And it's true. Ultimate hulk's (who's the strongest rated) strength is officially rated at the 17 ton range i think. Current 616 Spiderman could probably match that on a good day.
616 Collossus, Hulk, Thor, The Thing etc etc are all in the 100+ ton range

[Guyverjay]

True. Good thing he can will Mjolnir to return to him. ;)
.


The very thing that almost caused him to get his head knocked off by juggy:p

[LobokDaikon]

Unless you are Stan Lee,your comment is nothing but assumption.

Did you not see the word "probably" in there?

[The Question]

True. Good thing he can will Mjolnir to return to him. ;)

Also, his speed was very close to Superman's current level. There were numerous mentions in comics that he was "as fast as the lightning he commands." Lightning travels somewhere around 90,000 miles per second, as far as I recall, which is pretty close to the speed of light. I think I've heard Superman's current top speed is about 145,000 miles per second. Not quite as fast, but still close enough that I'd give Thor a majority of their fights if he were still capable of moving and reacting at that speed.


Actually, with his hammer. Thor can trancend lightspeed by opening up wormholes. So, in terms of "point A to point B" speed, Thor trumps Superman.

[TheCorpulent1]

Travel speed's easy, though. It won't help him in a fight where Superman can move and react to everything Thor can throw at him literally hundreds of times faster than Thor can even perceive what's going on.

Also, don't throw super-speed out too quickly when you bring teleportation into the picture. Wally has outrun instantaneous transportation. :)
The very thing that almost caused him to get his head knocked off by juggy
Yeah, it's pretty sad that Thunderstrike has a better record against Jugs than Thor does. :(

[The Question]

Travel speed's easy, though. It won't help him in a fight where Superman can move and react to everything Thor can throw at him literally hundreds of times faster than Thor can even perceive what's going on.

Fair point. But Thor's range of infuelnce is alot greater. Doesn't matter how fast you can react to hurricanes, tornados, hailstorms, and lightning strikes going on all at once, because more likely than not, they're going to hit you not matter what.

Also, don't throw super-speed out too quickly when you bring teleportation into the picture. Wally has outrun instantaneous transportation. :)

I think Instantly geting to Asgard from New York is a bit above Wally.

[herakles]

I loved Ultimate, because it put a new, modern spin on things that made it simply more relevant to today's society.

Another fanboy snuckered by the Fat JoeQ:(

The Ulitimate line is just Marvel's main Universe tweaked and marketed to people into thinking it is something new, "modern and relevent:rolleyes: " take on the Marvel U.

McDonalds and Starbucks does the same thing by Spending $$$$ into getting people to think that their CRAPPY product DOESN'T SUCK!!

The ONLY Reason why the Ultimate line is popular is that it has Good writers and pencilers and Marvel markets the hell out it.!!!

I don't care that the Hulk was created by a Gamma Bomb, Iron Man was held captive by the North Koreans, Peter Parker got bit a radioactive spider, or that Thor was forced into being Donald Blake.

I CARE if those titles are WELL drawn and written. The origins of superheros should ONLY matter in their premier appearance!!

[TheCorpulent1]

Fair point. But Thor's range of infuelnce is alot greater. Doesn't matter how fast you can react to hurricanes, tornados, hailstorms, and lightning strikes going on all at once, because more likely than not, they're going to hit you not matter what.
True, but take into account Superman's durability along with his speed. Thor could have every weather effect nature is capable of creating (and probably a few more besides, given how complete his mastery of the weather has been shown to be before) trained on Superman, but I doubt it'd slow Superman down enough to effectively allow Thor to land more than a couple of glancing blows on him every now and then. On the other hand, Superman's fast and tough enough that he actually does stand a halfway decent chance of making it through the weather effects in fighting form, which would allow him to land a thousand blows on Thor for every one of Thor's. He's also comparable in strength to Thor, which means his punches will count the same as Thor's. 1,000 to 1 is not a very good ratio for Thor's continued health.
I think Instantly geting to Asgard from New York is a bit above Wally.
Not really. Wally can shift his body through dimensions and time better than any other speedster, and if the conditions under which he outraced teleportation the first time were duplicated, I don't see what a difference in the beginning and ending locations would matter. All outracing instantaneous transportation means, really, is that you've broken the time barrier and can move while time stands still. That's effective at getting you from any point to any other point faster than anyone or anything that is beholden to time, which Thor's teleportation is.

[The Question]

Not really. Wally can shift his body through dimensions and time better than any other speedster, and if the conditions under which he outraced teleportation the first time were duplicated, I don't see what a difference in the beginning and ending locations would matter. All outracing instantaneous transportation means, really, is that you've broken the time barrier and can move while time stands still. That's effective at getting you from any point to any other point faster than anyone or anything that is beholden to time, which Thor's teleportation is.

Ah. Yes. I forgot, Wally is some speed force god now. Bothers me a bit, that does. Really, I've never been fond of the speed force. Or, at least, I'm not fond of what they've done with it. Giving The Flash new powers like stealing speed and the such.

Another fanboy snuckered by the Fat JoeQ:(

The Ulitimate line is just Marvel's main Universe tweaked and marketed to people into thinking it is something new, "modern and relevent:rolleyes: " take on the Marvel U.

McDonalds and Starbucks does the same thing by Spending $$$$ into getting people to think that their CRAPPY product DOESN'T SUCK!!

The ONLY Reason why the Ultimate line is popular is that it has Good writers and pencilers and Marvel markets the hell out it.!!!

I don't care that the Hulk was created by a Gamma Bomb, Iron Man was held captive by the North Koreans, Peter Parker got bit a radioactive spider, or that Thor was forced into being Donald Blake.

I CARE if those titles are WELL drawn and written. The origins of superheros should ONLY matter in their premier appearance!!


So, why would you have a problem with the Ultimates?

[TheCorpulent1]

Ah. Yes. I forgot, Wally is some speed force god now. Bothers me a bit, that does. Really, I've never been fond of the speed force. Or, at least, I'm not fond of what they've done with it. Giving The Flash new powers like stealing speed and the such.
I'm very happy with the Speed Force. While Barry was basically just a guy who could run fast and create whirlwinds, Wally has versatility to add to his unparalleled speed. It makes him one of the most powerful characters in comics, and writers like Waid and Johns have made such great use of that power in their stories.

[The Question]

I just think that there's enough someone could do with super speed that you don't need to add stealing velocity, dimension hopping, speed force constucts, and stuff like that. Personally, I prefer the idea of The Flash's only power being super speed, but he knows enough about phsyics to make that one power just as potent as Superman's half dozen.

[herakles]

So, why would you have a problem with the Ultimates?

First I feel that it those resources could be better used in the regular lines BUT that is my opinion:)

Also some of the ideas sound lame to me like Thor being this envornmentalist and the Hulk getting his power from the Supersoldier serum. To me that idea sucks and shows a real lack of thought!

Also I am just prefer the Marvel of when I was young and just started reading comics.

[TheCorpulent1]

I just think that there's enough someone could do with super speed that you don't need to add stealing velocity, dimension hopping, speed force constucts, and stuff like that. Personally, I prefer the idea of The Flash's only power being super speed, but he knows enough about phsyics to make that one power just as potent as Superman's half dozen.
In order to take advantage of the relativistic physics that make his speed so potent, though, the Flash needs the Speed Force. It's the catch-all that explains why his flesh doesn't immolate or tear off of him due to the tiny amount of friction caused by air resistance and why he can even come remotely close to light speed when his body should be accumulating so much mass that he couldn't physically move long before that point. Plus, more often than not, Wally tends to use physics with his super-speed anyway. Witness the infinite mass punch or the way he and Jay accelerated a fire demon into a tiny sun that they could then collapse and form a wormhole with. I think the Speed Force just enriches the basic super-speed power more than making the Flash a speed god.

Also, the dimension-hopping and time travel came long before the Speed Force. The former comes from molecule vibration, which even Barry was capable of, and the latter came from the Cosmic Treadmill before Wally began using the Speed Force to do it without the assistance of tech. I could stand to see both of those go myself, though, given that they're only tangentially related to super-speed. Someone on the boards pointed out that Wally's being able to run through time was as silly as the Hulk's being able to punch through time, and I'd have to agree.

[The Question]

In order to take advantage of the relativistic physics that make his speed so potent, though, the Flash needs the Speed Force. It's the catch-all that explains why his flesh doesn't immolate or tear off of him due to the tiny amount of friction caused by air resistance and why he can even come remotely close to light speed when his body should be accumulating so much mass that he couldn't physically move long before that point.

True. And while I suppose it's not the only way it could be explained, it definately works. But that's about where I'd like it to stop. Keeping him from killing himself. Not giving him extra powers like speed stealing. That's the stuff that really bothers me.

Plus, more often than not, Wally tends to use physics with his super-speed anyway. Witness the infinite mass punch or the way he and Jay accelerated a fire demon into a tiny sun that they could then collapse and form a wormhole with. I think the Speed Force just enriches the basic super-speed power more than making the Flash a speed god.

True there.

Also, the dimension-hopping and time travel came long before the Speed Force. The former comes from molecule vibration, which even Barry was capable of, and the latter came from the Cosmic Treadmill before Wally began using the Speed Force to do it without the assistance of tech.

Well, I always had a problem with Barry being able to dimension hop by vibrating. And I didn't necesairily mind the cosmic treadmill, since it was really time travel tech that they powered by running.

I could stand to see both of those go myself, though, given that they're only tangentially related to super-speed. Someone on the boards pointed out that Wally's being able to run through time was as silly as the Hulk's being able to punch through time, and I'd have to agree.

There, you and I are in agreement.

[Horrorfan]

Another fanboy snuckered by the Fat JoeQ:(

The Ulitimate line is just Marvel's main Universe tweaked and marketed to people into thinking it is something new, "modern and relevent:rolleyes: " take on the Marvel U.

McDonalds and Starbucks does the same thing by Spending $$$$ into getting people to think that their CRAPPY product DOESN'T SUCK!!

The ONLY Reason why the Ultimate line is popular is that it has Good writers and pencilers and Marvel markets the hell out it.!!!

I don't care that the Hulk was created by a Gamma Bomb, Iron Man was held captive by the North Koreans, Peter Parker got bit a radioactive spider, or that Thor was forced into being Donald Blake.

I CARE if those titles are WELL drawn and written. The origins of superheros should ONLY matter in their premier appearance!!
LOL it has 'GOOD WRITERS AND ARTISTS.' Read that again, and then realise you said that it sucks. So something that is well written and drawn...sucks?But you like other titles that are also 'well written and drawn'? Methinks you're confused.Er I am sorry, but anyone who watches the news for more than ten minutes these days can EASILY see how much more relevant The Ultimates is than the 'old' Avengers. Just watch the news, or read a news paper.I find it funny too you find the Hulk's serum stupid, but are totally ok with a gamma bomb explosion causing it in the first place.It just seems to me that some fanboys are bitter because they finally realised that Marvel are a buisness, and they need to attract new readers. It's not like they scrapped the 616, if you want to read the convoluted, boring characters there (I love Onslaught, but they are brining him back because they are running out of ideas), then you can still do that. But luckily, the fresher Ultimate lines are there for those of us who don't want that too.

[The Question]

First I feel that it those resources could be better used in the regular lines BUT that is my opinion:)

Except, Millar, Bendis, and Ellis couldn't have written most of the storioes they wrote in the Ultimate line if it were in continuity.

Also some of the ideas sound lame to me like Thor being this envornmentalist and the Hulk getting his power from the Supersoldier serum. To me that idea sucks and shows a real lack of thought!

How does it show a real lack of thought? They wanted to get away from the whole "radiation gives everyone super powers" thing. A super steroid makes more sense in creating The Hulk than a gamma explosion. And really, it's not like it takes anything away from the character. And what's wrong with Thor caring about the environment?

[TheCorpulent1]

Just view the Ultimate characters as wholly separate from their 616 counterparts. 616 Thor is the actual Norse god with all the trappings that entails. Ultimate Thor is a crazy hippie with a power belt and techno-hammer. Totally different characters with just a name in common, just like DC's Thor (who was a moron).

[Xofenroht]

How does it show a real lack of thought? They wanted to get away from the whole "radiation gives everyone super powers" thing. A super steroid makes more sense in creating The Hulk than a gamma explosion. And really, it's not like it takes anything away from the character. And what's wrong with Thor caring about the environment?

Especially considering he's the god of an elemental force...

Edit: Corp, Ultimate Thor has been confirmed as a god.

[The Question]

Just view the Ultimate characters as wholly separate from their 616 counterparts. 616 Thor is the actual Norse god with all the trappings that entails. Ultimate Thor is a crazy hippie with a power belt and techno-hammer. Totally different characters with just a name in common, just like DC's Thor (who was a moron).



Ultimate Thor is a god. He just lost his powers because Loki ****ed with reality.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ok. So he's a crazy hippie with a power belt and techno-hammer who used to be a god.

[The Question]

I guess.

[Advocate05]

OKay and that makes it better than the 616.

:up:

GO Ultimates!!!

:down

BTW ... just thought about it ...

Originally posted by The Question:
Ultimate Thor is a god. He just lost his powers because Loki ****ed with reality.

Originally posted by TheCorpulent1:
Ok. So he's a crazy hippie with a power belt and techno-hammer who used to be a god.


How can you LOSE God powers? Even if you bend reality to where you lose them ... Reality has to bend back. Thereby putting the God powers back on oneself. Okay I maybe over thinking this, but i don't think so.

[Mr. Green]

Apparantly Odin turned his back on the whole situation.

Don't hate on the Ultimates though. It's one of the best written books out today.

[TheCorpulent1]

OKay and that makes it better than the 616.
For some, I'm sure. I think Ultimate Thor is about .5% of the character 616 Thor is, but that's just me. It's Millar's spin on the concept of a modern-day deity, which works well in the context of the Ultimates. I'd have to attempt to assassinate Millar or anyone else who tried to transplant Ultimate Thor's character on 616 Thor, though, which would probably land me in jail. Good thing the universes are remaining separate for the time being. :up:

[The Question]

OKay and that makes it better than the 616.

:up:

GO Ultimates!!!

:down

Never said it was better. I like both equally.

BTW ... just thought about it ...




How can you LOSE God powers? Even if you bend reality to where you lose them ... Reality has to bend back. Thereby putting the God powers back on oneself. Okay I maybe over thinking this, but i don't think so.

Why would reality have to bend back? Loki can bend reality. Why wouldn't he be able to keep it bent?

[Genesis 1.0]

Except, Millar, Bendis, and Ellis couldn't have written most of the storioes they wrote in the Ultimate line if it were in continuity.



How does it show a real lack of thought? They wanted to get away from the whole "radiation gives everyone super powers" thing. A super steroid makes more sense in creating The Hulk than a gamma explosion. And really, it's not like it takes anything away from the character. And what's wrong with Thor caring about the environment?

Yeah, I'd have to agree here. In the 616 a whole crapload of people got their power from radiation, so if were really talking in terms of ingenuity, then it'd be the 616 that falls short. At least the Ultimate line is diverse with it's origins and the characters to an extent, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do: stand alone. It was stated quite clearly that they made the Ultimate line for people to be able to get into without digging through decades of continuity and sometimes confusing plot lines and shifting views. Consequently that drew in alot of people that love 616 as well, longtime fans became fans of the Ultimate line AND the 616, just as Question and myself.

I don't get why it is that people have to try and bash your head in with a roack, as seen at the top of the page with the attack on Horror Fan, if you like the Ultimate line over the 616. It is possible to like *gasp* BOTH!

*Waits for people to pick their jaws up off the floor*

Personally I like them equally.

[Xofenroht]

Yeah, I'd have to agree here. In the 616 a whole crapload of people got their power from radiation, so if were really talking in terms of ingenuity, then it'd be the 616 that falls short. At least the Ultimate line is diverse with it's origins and the characters to an extent, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do: stand alone. It was stated quite clearly that they made the Ultimate line for people to be able to get into without digging through decades of continuity and sometimes confusing plot lines and shifting views. Consequently that drew in alot of people that love 616 as well, longtime fans became fans of the Ultimate line AND the 616, just as Question and myself.

I don't get why it is that people have to try and bash your head in with a roack, as seen at the top of the page with the attack on Horror Fan, if you like the Ultimate line over the 616. It is possible to like *gasp* BOTH!

*Waits for people to pick their jaws up off the floor*

Personally I like them equally.

It's not the Ultimate line I see that's the problem, nor is it how much people like it. Heck, I quite enjoy reading The Ultimates. What I do think is the problem is how people run to it, then try to use those titles to back them up in debates about a specific character. No matter how long the Ultimate Universe is around, it will always be known as "The Other Universe". Ultimate Thor will never just be Thor and etc.
The origins of the silver age characters are products of their time. There was alot of nuclear paranoia going around in which Stan Lee seemed to cash in on at the time. You couldn't do that today because no one really cares. They're more concerned with a shady government or addressing social inequality.

[Mr. Green]

Heh, if strength was the only element that decided a battle, there really wouldn't be an Avengers based on the guys they face, not to mention the FF4 taking down Galactus. In any case, The Ultimates being beaten by 616 Hulk alone is highly inprobable and comes off smacking of 'fanboy'.
Actually, it has nothing to do with being a fanboy (which I probably am). I love the Ultimates, but they almost got their asses handed to them by Ultimate Hulk. 616 Hulk is WAY, WAY, WAY stronger, and can continue getting stronger as he gets angrier.

616 Hulk> Ultimate Hulk > Ultimates-Wasp.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ultimate Cap is the only character I can think of off the top of my head who's actually more powerful than his 616 counterpart.

[Anubis]

Ultimate Colossus too.

[thor87]

wll its been a while since ive been to the boards but its a thor thread so ill put my 2 sense in. Yeah i love thor (616) that is, and the ultimate thor who seemed to me like a giant liberal with a hammer, wasnt as cool. I like the Ultimates though, it gives a new take on an already proven idea, i dont see why the two are mutually exclusive, you can like both. I personnaly preffer 616 just cause its what i know, but the Ultimates have done some good stuff, now in the ultimate verse someone said they were 8-10 times weaker than 616, i think that goes for everone except ult. cap who seems to be a lot stronger than 616. Oh an on an unrelated thor note, lets all pray that he comes back soon.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm keeping my eyes on the current FF arc, but so far the first issue hasn't impressed me much.
Ultimate Colossus too.
Proportionately to the other characters. I know he's stronger than 616 Colossus would be compared to, say, 616 Thor. But is Ultimate Colossus actually pound-for-pound more powerful compared to 616 Colossus himself? I thought the super-strong characters didn't have much hope of measuring up to their 616 counterparts because the strength standards of the Ultimate universe are so much lower than the 616 universe's.

[demento]

I thought the super-strong characters didn't have much hope of measuring up to their 616 counterparts because the strength standards of the Ultimate universe are so much lower than the 616 universe's.
That initially seemed to be the case but it's been shown time and again that the Ultimatized versions are at least as powerful as their 616 counterparts. This is especially true for Colossus.

[Genesis 1.0]

Actually, it has nothing to do with being a fanboy (which I probably am). I love the Ultimates, but they almost got their asses handed to them by Ultimate Hulk. 616 Hulk is WAY, WAY, WAY stronger, and can continue getting stronger as he gets angrier.

616 Hulk> Ultimate Hulk > Ultimates-Wasp.

Pfft. The Avengers have been almost levelled by guys in their older runs that wouldn't give them pause in the present day, this is the Golden/Silver stage of the Ultimate line. They're facing off against guys that give them Hell now because they're still fresh off the shelf and haven't gotten the teamwork you see in their counterparts. Realistically looking at the power levels on the members of the Ultimates it's unrealistic to sit back and say that 616 Hulk would win on GP EVERY time.

Ah yes, and as it's been pointed out, not all the Ultimate heavy hitters are 8 to 10 times weaker than their 616 counterparts, just as I said it's just a generalized ratio.

[Whirlysplat]

Pfft. The Avengers have been almost levelled by guys in their older runs that wouldn't give them pause in the present day, this is the Golden/Silver stage of the Ultimate line. They're facing off against guys that give them Hell now because they're still fresh off the shelf and haven't gotten the teamwork you see in their counterparts. Realistically looking at the power levels on the members of the Ultimates it's unrealistic to sit back and say that 616 Hulk would win on GP EVERY time.

Ah yes, and as it's been pointed out, not all the Ultimate heavy hitters are 8 to 10 times weaker than their 616 counterparts, just as I said it's just a generalized ratio.

Agreed

Most famous examples of this are probably Ultimate C moving the Submarine, Ultimate Thor v the Skrull alien fleet and Ultimate Hulk tearing Ultimate Wolverine apart literally in U Hulk v Ult Wolvie 1. Ultimate Phoenix looks to be shaping up as truly "cosmic" in Ult Xmen 69 (now there's a number).

- Whirly

[Genesis 1.0]

Exactly my point. The Ultimate Universe is progressing quite nicely, has a large fanbase, and is quite popular, so with all things with these elements; it's got a crapload of detractors from the 'old regime'. I'd be fine with the comparisons if they actually made SENSE.

The concept that you can like the newer more than the old or the two equally seems alien to some.

[demento]

It almost seems like 99.9% of the disgruntled take issue with Cap's characterization and choose to boycott all things Ultimate based on that alone. I have a feeling that they're going to become more alike under Loeb though...

[TheCorpulent1]

That initially seemed to be the case but it's been shown time and again that the Ultimatized versions are at least as powerful as their 616 counterparts. This is especially true for Colossus.
The Hulk and Thor still seem vastly less powerful than their 616 counterparts.

[demento]

The Hulk and Thor still seem vastly less powerful than their 616 counterparts.
Maybe. They've been shown to be vulnerable but have also pulled off some pretty incredible feats (the battle w/the Chitauri fleet, for example). But we'll probably know more definitively with the next 2 issues of Ultimates 2 when they go up against the likes of Perun and Abomination.

[TheCorpulent1]

Didn't Thor just teleport a bunch of the spaceships to another dimension in the Skrull battle? 616 Thor's teleported loads of stuff with ease.

[demento]

Didn't Thor just teleport a bunch of the spaceships to another dimension in the Skrull battle? 616 Thor's teleported loads of stuff with ease.
Well, he teleported the doomsday bomb that the Chitauri were going to set off but he, Hulk and Iron Man went mano-a-mano w/the fleet.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, that's something, I guess. Still not quite up there with the 616 versions in my opinion, though.

[The Question]

Ultimate Thor also took down a bunch of fighters and one of the huge motherships with a lightning strike.

[Anubis]

He also got beat up by Colossus.

[The Question]

I still hold that he was caught off gaurd, not expecting Collosus to be that strong. Were they to fight again, I think (at least I hope) that things would be a bit more even.

[Anubis]

Bah, he should have had intel on who he was facing. I'm sure they were briefed before they went in to try and capture them. He got his ass handed to him, plain and simple. Freakin Hawkeye had to take him down with a Nuke arrow.

[TheCorpulent1]

Getting caught by surprise is still pretty sad. 616 Thor gets taken by surprise like three times a week and still kicks his opponents' asses.

[The Question]

Bah, he should have had intel on who he was facing. I'm sure they were briefed before they went in to try and capture them. He got his ass handed to him, plain and simple. Freakin Hawkeye had to take him down with a Nuke arrow.

Well, it is possible that the upper limits of Collosus' strength were unknown to S.H.E.I.L.D. Plus, Thor isn't an actual member of the team. He just helps them out alot. He could have simply shown up not having been debreifed about anything.

Getting caught by surprise is still pretty sad. 616 Thor gets taken by surprise like three times a week and still kicks his opponents' asses.

I know. Really, this is just me trying to work out Mark Millar's **** up. I mean, in the Ultimates, he said that Thor is stronger than any other recorded superhuman (except for maybe The Hulk). And yet, in UXM, he's getting pimp smacked by Collosus.

[TheCorpulent1]

Who said Thor is stronger than anyone else? If it was a character in the comic, it's possible that they were just wrong. The same claim has been made about 616 Thor, when clearly he's not the strongest around.

[The Question]

It was stated by Loki that Thor is "stronger than anything they've ever encountered, even in the mutant comunity". Remember, the Ultimate verse is alot smaller. Most of the heavy hitters on Thor's level have not apeared. Besides, the fact that Captain America, Captain Britain, and a bunch of super soldiers on Captain Britain's power level all dogpiled on Thor and he swated them away like they were nothing suggests that he is in fact much stronger than all of them.

[Anubis]

Which doesn't bode well for they're power levels if he got his ass handed to him by a teenage mutant.

[The Question]

That, or it bodes extremely well for Colosus.

[Anubis]

true, true.

[Genesis 1.0]

Getting caught by surprise is still pretty sad. 616 Thor gets taken by surprise like three times a week and still kicks his opponents' asses.

Bah! It wouldn't be the first time someone's lost a very improbable battle, now would it? Thor/Supes, Spiderman/Firelord, Wolverine/DD, ect. Ish happens, but it doesn't happen often. More importantly as I pointed out earlier, this is the Golden Age for the Ultimate line, the characters are just out there and if they're already geting up on the comprable level with ANY 616 counterpart, what does that say for the next say, 2 or 3 years? 5? You're low balling it, bro.

[TheCorpulent1]

It doesn't really say anything to me. 616 Thor was more powerful early in his existence than he is now. :confused:

[Horrorfan]

I have read Hulk, and I still say Ultimate would eat 616 up, digest him and crap him out before he's halfway through transformation.

The Ultimate x men would probably batter the current x men. Wolverine is just downright meaner, and Colossus is apparently much stronger, Chuck would play dirtier....


And Ultimate Cap would have 616 cap out cold while he was still questioning if it was morally right to beat up his counterpart.

Ultimate Thor does sound like a bit of a pansy if he can't take Colossus and he is a god though (I haven't read that yet, I am waiting for the trades)

[TheCorpulent1]

I have read Hulk, and I still say Ultimate would eat 616 up, digest him and crap him out before he's halfway through transformation.
Then you have a remarkable ability to ignore the respective quality of their feats. :)

[The Question]

Actually, there hasn't been much to suggest that Ultimate Hulk is any more or less powerful than 616 Hulk.

[TheCorpulent1]

Has there been an indication of how strong Ultimate Cap is? Because I got the impression he was around 616 Spider-Man's strength level at the most, and that's not enough to even slow 616 Hulk down.

[The Question]

Fair point. Cap did seem to hurt him somehwat. But then, The Hulk just came back seconds later with the asswhupoligy, so maybe it was more suprise than pain.

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe. There's still the point that in the 616 universe, Spider-Man pounded away at the Hulk until his hands bled and the Hulk didn't feel it at all. He would've beaten the crap out of Peter (or killed him, going by today's 616 Hulk standards, I guess) if Peter hadn't mentioned that the Hulk was keeping him from his wife. The Hulk remembered Betty and backed off.

[wobbly]

Fair point. Cap did seem to hurt him somehwat. But then, The Hulk just came back seconds later with the asswhupoligy, so maybe it was more suprise than pain.

Well, Thor also broke several bones in Ultimate Hulk, and he just ignored it. so it does seem he can be injured a good deal easier than 616 Hulk (or at least could, Ultimate Hulk may have had a power-up after taking a heavy hit of rads from the bomb)

[demento]

Has there been an indication of how strong Ultimate Cap is? Because I got the impression he was around 616 Spider-Man's strength level at the most, and that's not enough to even slow 616 Hulk down.
He was originally listed as Class 2 (in Wizard...) but he's done a few things that suggest he may be a bit stronger. Whatever the stat, he's definitely 'superhuman' and not 'peak human'.

[Horrorfan]

Then you have a remarkable ability to ignore the respective quality of their feats. :)

Ultimate Hulk was in close proximity to an atom bomb more or less going off on top of him. That's different to a gamma bomb, which humans have been known to survive blasts of. Ultimate Hulk caused so much destruction and took it hard to the ultimates, when in 616 Spidey and Wolvie have been known to take it to him ON THEIR OWN.


So unless Hulk has gotten stupidly powerful since the last time I read a few years ago (and it is possible) from what I have seen Ultimate would just own.

[TheCorpulent1]

You're arguing that Ultimate Hulk is more powerful than 616 Hulk, but if 616 Hulk turns out to be more powerful he's "stupidly powerful"? :confused:

Anyway, there are counterpoints to everything you've pointed out. Those are among the worst showings 616 Hulk has; unlike the Ultimate characters, the 616s have been around long enough to have lots of both good and bad showings. 616 Hulk has withstood nuclear weapons (other than the gamma bomb), taken down the Avengers by himself, tbeat Hercules to within an inch of his then-mortal life, severely beaten Gladiator, gotten further than anyone else short of the Celestials in a fight against the Destroyer, etc. His "healing factor" has developed into an adaptation ability, too. He spontaneously generated lungs just before he drowned while walking across an ocean, for example.

I don't see why it's somehow insulting to people to have it pointed out that the Ultimate characters are just pound-for-pound on a lower power scale than the 616s. Ultimate Hulk is probably about as powerful for the Ultimate universe as 616 Hulk is for the 616 universe, which should really be all that matters.

[Anubis]

Don't forget that whole punching though Dimensions thing.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but that actually was kind of stupid. "Raarr, Hulk so angry that Hulk's muscles miraculously develop ability to tear laws of physics asunder! Raarrr!!" :o

[Horrorfan]

Yeah, but that actually was kind of stupid. "Raarr, Hulk so angry that Hulk's muscles miraculously develop ability to tear laws of physics asunder! Raarrr!!" :o
That my friend is stupidly strong. You proved my point. I didn't even know Hulk did that.Taking on Thor is one kind of strength. Punching through DIMENSIONS? Come on now. And I always found the 'madder hulk gets stronger hulk gets' thing kinda stupid. It's really obviously a plot device instead of any sort of respect for the characters ACTUAL abilities. Oh wow superpowerful guy is here! Make Hulk mad and he can all of a sudden kick his ass!Do you see what I mean or am I not explaining it too well? Basically I think there should be at least some kind of continuity level of power- I know that's hard with comics- but Ult. Hulk's strength hasn't reached preposterous levels like that yet. Also my theory about Cap's strength is that it's from the same serum as what made the Hulk, so I am guessing he is sharing a portion of that type of juice as well.

[TheCorpulent1]

Punching through dimensions is lame, I agree. But give it some time. I'm sure Ultimate Hulk will have a random instance where his strength becomes ridiculous every now and then. The whole point of the character is to be stronger than literally everybody. That kind of breeds absurd displays of power.

[Mr. Green]

Read the books Horrorfan. 616 Hulk is stronger and more durable than his Ultimate counterpart by a LOT. Hulk has lifted 150 Billion tons of mountain before. Ultimate Hulk couldn't TOUCH that.

If you are trying to argue that Ultimate Hulk is stronger or more durable than 616 Hulk, you can't.

616 Hulk > Ultimate Hulk

Period.

[Miss Webb]

He's considered powerful because of his physiology and history of impressive feats.
And legendary among the god pantheons in marvel. Athena once spoke of him admiringly.

[nogap87]

A couple of years ago I read a Black Panther comic in which Thor was knocked out by a bullet. I can't remember the story too well but I do remember having a WTF!? moment. I didn't know much about Thor at the time but I did know that bullets should'nt have any effect (affect?) on him.

[Guyverjay]

Yeah, but that actually was kind of stupid. "Raarr, Hulk so angry that Hulk's muscles miraculously develop ability to tear laws of physics asunder! Raarrr!!" :o


The flash has feats just as absurd if we're honest

[LibrarianThorne]

The flash has feats just as absurd if we're honest

Every superhero has absurd feats that don't make any sense. Superman clocking at 140,000MPS on Earth without Speed Force protection. Batman and Nightwing taking down Amazo. Nightwing kicking nigh-omnipotent Alex Luthor in the head (a being who, when assaulted by the combined might of Ion and Donna Troy's armada, lost part of a finger).

As to Ultimate v. 616, I am getting really damn tired of hearing 'Ult. Cap beats 616 Cap because he's stronger and meaner!'

Please. Red Skull, anyone? U.S. Agent? How many people has Cap fought and taken down that were stronger and faster and meaner than he was? 616 Cap has even solo'd the Hulk, fer cryin' out loud! Ultimate fanwankers seem to forget that Cap always fights at a disadvantage and nearly always wins in spite of it. Ultimate Cap is about on par with the U.S. Agent in terms of strength, agility, speed, intelligence, and skill. Meaning that 616 Captain America will take him down with very little trouble at all.

[Guyverjay]

Eh?

As far as I am aware, ultimate Cap is supposed to be basically the same as normal Cap with added super strength and a tude. I think you're taking him likely

[rodhulk]

Yeah, but that actually was kind of stupid. "Raarr, Hulk so angry that Hulk's muscles miraculously develop ability to tear laws of physics asunder! Raarrr!!" :oThe you must really hate the fight Hulk had (can't exactly remember against who) when the punches Hulk was giving and taking caused shockwaves that went to other dimensions causing great catastrophes. As a Hulk fan, sure, I like it, but that's even beyond punching through time.

[TheCorpulent1]

I never read that fight, but yeah, I would've hated that, too. I don't know, I just can't suspend disbelief enough to be ok with normal (albeit enormous) muscles and sinews and tendons and all that inexplicably defying dimensional barriers.
The flash has feats just as absurd if we're honest
True, but at least he has the Speed Force to explain some of it away. I wouldn't mind if they cut his dimension/time-hopping abilities out of his repertoire, though.

[Horrorfan]

I still say Ultimate could take 616 Hulk (keep in mind superman can't do most of the stuff you said 616 Hulk could, yet he knocked Hulk spark out with one punch....I'm not gonna even mention a normal guy like Batman ko'ing hulk because thats another example of absurdity within a character's abilities).

But who knows? Untill it actually happens (and it probably will eventually)
it's all conjucture (though I still say Cap would eat 616 cap for lunch, but not actually literally this time ;) unless its zombie ultimate cap...hey I got a new idea for a series ;)

[XwolverineX]

I still say Ultimate could take 616 Hulk (keep in mind superman can't do most of the stuff you said 616 Hulk could, yet he knocked Hulk spark out with one punch....I'm not gonna even mention a normal guy like Batman ko'ing hulk because thats another example of absurdity within a character's abilities).

But who knows? Untill it actually happens (and it probably will eventually)
it's all conjucture (though I still say Cap would eat 616 cap for lunch, but not actually literally this time ;) unless its zombie ultimate cap...hey I got a new idea for a series ;)



You fergot to end yer last bracket. An' DC vs. Marvel ain't in continuity.

[Horrorfan]

You fergot to end yer last bracket. An' DC vs. Marvel ain't in continuity.

). And why not?

[Guyverjay]

). And why not?


Because it isn't, there doesn't have to be a reason.

[Horrorfan]

Because it isn't, there doesn't have to be a reason.


Basically because some of your favourites get a whupping it's not continuity maybe? ;)

[Guyverjay]

Basically because some of your favourites get a whupping it's not continuity maybe? ;)


Nah I don't have the power of reality warping, my opinion of the fights can't suddenly make something canon or not. It isn't canon...FACT.

But if you really want to go there...

Venom beat Supermans ass:o

[Horrorfan]

Nah I don't have the power of reality warping, my opinion of the fights can't suddenly make something canon or not. It isn't canon...FACT.

But if you really want to go there...

Venom beat Supermans ass:o


Really? As Carlito would say, 'Das cool'.:up:

And Punisher beating Batman (albiet the Jean Paul Batman) he says 'das cool too'. :up:

[LibrarianThorne]

). And why not?

It isn't because both Marvel and DC have said "Marvel Vs. DC isn't in continuity!"

Now, JLA/Avengers is at least in DC continuity.

As to U. Cap v. 616 Cap, tell me how U. Cap is going to beat Cap. U. Cap is U.S. Agent level, and Steve Rogers beat the crap out of the U.S. Agent without much difficulty. 616 Cap is smarter than U. Cap, and one of the best martial artists in the MU not to mention having decades of experience on U. Cap (616 Cap has 1939-1945, plus 1998-2006. U. Cap has maybe six years, including WW2, which he didn't get involved in until after Pearl Harbor).

[Guyverjay]

eh how is 1939-1945, plus 1998-2006, "decades of experience"?:confused:

[LibrarianThorne]

eh how is 1939-1945, plus 1998-2006, "decades of experience"?:confused:

All right, I'm embellishing there, but 616 Cap has been got at least ten years of experience than U. Cap, and 616 Cap has fought much, much, much bigger threats and beaten them.

[Horrorfan]

It isn't because both Marvel and DC have said "Marvel Vs. DC isn't in continuity!"

Now, JLA/Avengers is at least in DC continuity.

As to U. Cap v. 616 Cap, tell me how U. Cap is going to beat Cap. U. Cap is U.S. Agent level, and Steve Rogers beat the crap out of the U.S. Agent without much difficulty. 616 Cap is smarter than U. Cap, and one of the best martial artists in the MU not to mention having decades of experience on U. Cap (616 Cap has 1939-1945, plus 1998-2006. U. Cap has maybe six years, including WW2, which he didn't get involved in until after Pearl Harbor).
No one can convince me that Normal Cap, who always seemed like a bit of a pansy to me, could take the meaner, tougher, stronger, smarter Cap. If it actually happens, then fine, but till then? Not believing it.

[Guyverjay]

All right, I'm embellishing there, but 616 Cap has been got at least ten years of experience than U. Cap, and 616 Cap has fought much, much, much bigger threats and beaten them.



He's also been around for 40 years and has had a few gazzilion appearances.

Not exactly a fair comparison. Ult Cap has been impressive in his limited number of appearances. Ultimate universe or not he IS a version of Captain America. I woud imagine his fighting skills are comparable to the 616 cp

[danielisthor]

Until U. Cap, stands face to face with Thanos, 616 Cap whips his ass.

[XwolverineX]

It isn't because both Marvel and DC have said "Marvel Vs. DC isn't in continuity!"

Now, JLA/Avengers is at least in DC continuity.

As to U. Cap v. 616 Cap, tell me how U. Cap is going to beat Cap. U. Cap is U.S. Agent level, and Steve Rogers beat the crap out of the U.S. Agent without much difficulty. 616 Cap is smarter than U. Cap, and one of the best martial artists in the MU not to mention having decades of experience on U. Cap (616 Cap has 1939-1945, plus 1998-2006. U. Cap has maybe six years, including WW2, which he didn't get involved in until after Pearl Harbor).


JLA - Avengers is in Continuity!? It'd be awesome if Thor or someone was refferenced in a DC comic. Kinda like Spidey talked 'bout Batman over in RUNWAYS. :cool:;)

[Horrorfan]

JLA - Avengers is in Continuity!? It'd be awesome if Thor or someone was refferenced in a DC comic. Kinda like Spidey talked 'bout Batman over in RUNWAYS. :cool:;)

What happened in that JLA/A mini? was it a fight or team up situation? If it was a fight who won? Lucky for the JLA the sentry wasn't around then :D

[Harlekin]

What happened in that JLA/A mini? was it a fight or team up situation? If it was a fight who won? Lucky for the JLA the sentry wasn't around then :D
A bit of both, but not in the real team-against-team way. The JLA would've massacred them if that really happened.

[Guyverjay]

Until U. Cap, stands face to face with Thanos, 616 Cap whips his ass.

That sentence doesn't even resemble logic

[BrianWilly]

I love how not being a bigotted, trigger-happy, reactionary, manipulative yesman butthole all of a sudden translates into being a "pansy."

Anypoop, when was JLA vs. Avengers referenced in DC canon? That's pretty cool.

[Fantasyartist]

Thor is not just physically powerful but morally so. Only the most morally upright of individuals could lift his hammer( ie Captain America or Beta Ray Bill but not the Hulk)!

Terry

[Horrorfan]

I love how not being a bigotted, trigger-happy, reactionary, manipulative yesman butthole all of a sudden translates into being a "pansy."

.

No, 'lacking a pair' translates into pansy. Hope that helps :up:

[Harlekin]

No, 'lacking a pair' translates into pansy. Hope that helps :up:
Lacking a pair? Now that is funny.

Did Cap lack a pair when he stood before the omnipotent Thanos (he had the Infinity Gauntlet) and told Thanos that he would never yield? Did he lack a pair when he even took a swing at him?

Look, Ultimate Captain America is all fine and good. But he's just there for that aura of badassness. Captain America is the guy that appears on the scene, and you know a universal truth.

"There is going to be an ass-kicking now."

And Cap ain't going to be on the recieving end. ;)

The best Cap related quote that I can remember in regards to this is during the Skrull Kill Krew mini as a group of Hydra terrorists have taken over an airport. There's a senator there, cowering in the corner. Captain America stands up, and I'm paraphrasing here:

"There's a million terrorists crawling the airport. What are you going to do? What are you going to do!?"



"I'm going to take care of it."

[Still A ThorFan]

Let me bring you guys back to topic. But as far as Thor not being, or being too powerful is concerned, it is all up to the writer and how he wants to potray him in that storyline.

Maybe Mike Oeming wants Thor to beat the Hulk in a fight, while Roy Thomas feels other wise.

I know if I was writing Thor I would really cut him loose since so many people have said in the past that Thor was really held back in terms of how powerful he can be.

[Vanguard07]

Did he lack a pair when Korvac recreated the world in his image and left cap to fight him over and over again till Cap finally took back reality?

[Horrorfan]

Did he lack a pair when Korvac recreated the world in his image and left cap to fight him over and over again till Cap finally took back reality?


Basically, he's always lacked a pair. He always seemed way too clean cut and pretty boy. Ult Cap is kinda that way too but he has a bad ass take no shizer attitude.

[MajinShenron]

For the record, Hulk owned Hercules.

[Guyverjay]

That was MORTAL Hercules...quite a difference:o

[Genesis 1.0]

Just like I said, turned into a 616 vs Ultimate thread for a couple pages, people are always so touchy about that and this was bound to bring it out.

Horrorfan, do you now have SOME idea why Thor is billed as strong as he is and respected to such an extent around here?

[Horrorfan]

Just like I said, turned into a 616 vs Ultimate thread for a couple pages, people are always so touchy about that and this was bound to bring it out.

Horrorfan, do you now have SOME idea why Thor is billed as strong as he is and respected to such an extent around here?

Yeah but I thought he was more on Superman's level...but if someone said the JLA would slaughter the Avengers, it still makes me wonder how powerful he could actually be (I still maintain Sentry on his own would wipe his ass with the JLA and then tap WW's fine ass :D)

[TheCorpulent1]

The JLA would slaughter the Avengers because of their outrageous speed advantage. About half of their core members (the big seven) have insanely high degrees of super-speed--Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Superman, and the Flash--and of their remaining core members, only Batman doesn't have any super-speed. Compare that to the Avengers, who've only had a handful of characters in their entire history with high degrees of super-speed. Superman easily outdoes 616 Thor in speed, but they're roughly about the same in strength and 616 Thor easily outdoes Superman in versatility. Superman can punch, use his cold breath, and emit heat from his eyes; Thor can punch, emit anything from the electromagnetic spectrum from his hammer, call on any weather effect he wants, teleport, and use magic to a limited extent.

The JLA would also slaughter the Ultimates (more easily than they would the Avengers, I'd bet), if that helps put in perspective for you, since your 616 experience is limited.

As for the Sentry, his power level has fluctuated so much in his short existence that it's basically just a big question mark right now. I definitely couldn't even guess at how powerful he is, so maybe he could beat the JLA by himself or maybe he couldn't. No clue.

[Harlekin]

Basically, he's always lacked a pair. He always seemed way too clean cut and pretty boy. Ult Cap is kinda that way too but he has a bad ass take no shizer attitude.
I like how you completely ignored my post, depicting just what kind of a badass 616 Cap really is. This is the man that has faced down Thanos, Dr. Doom, Kang etc.

He does not "lack a pair". :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Also, for anyone who brings up the fact that Cap didn't actually fight Thanos, he fought and defeated the Red Skull while the Skull had a Cosmic Cube. That's cosmic-level power right there, taken down by an only slightly enhanced, flesh-and-blood man.

[Horrorfan]

The JLA would slaughter the Avengers because of their outrageous speed advantage. About half of their core members (the big seven) have insanely high degrees of super-speed--Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Superman, and the Flash--and of their remaining core members, only Batman doesn't have any super-speed. Compare that to the Avengers, who've only had a handful of characters in their entire history with high degrees of super-speed. Superman easily outdoes 616 Thor in speed, but they're roughly about the same in strength and 616 Thor easily outdoes Superman in versatility. Superman can punch, use his cold breath, and emit heat from his eyes; Thor can punch, emit anything from the electromagnetic spectrum from his hammer, call on any weather effect he wants, teleport, and use magic to a limited extent.

The JLA would also slaughter the Ultimates (more easily than they would the Avengers, I'd bet), if that helps put in perspective for you, since your 616 experience is limited.

As for the Sentry, his power level has fluctuated so much in his short existence that it's basically just a big question mark right now. I definitely couldn't even guess at how powerful he is, so maybe he could beat the JLA by himself or maybe he couldn't. No clue.


If speed made great fighters (in comics), Quicksilver would pwn most of the Marvel universe. I don't honestly t hink super speed has much of an impact in the outcome as you do but thats just me.

As for the Ultimates? I still say they would take JLA. They have some of the most brilliant minds on the planet who I'm sure could make up ways of defeating supes and the more powerful members, not even mentioning (imo) the stronger, meaner hulk. Ult. Cap is every bit the tactician Bats is and then some, with enchanced strength and speed and pure bad assness. He's Captain America, and I have no doubt he would pull the ultimates through (though they would still have to deal with the hulk).

You have a point about Sentry, but I still say if he could take the hulk out with NO effort, he would have little trouble with superman, who has barely taken out hulk before.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, I'm done here. Different strokes for different folks. If you believe the Ultimates could take every team in comicdom, I won't dispute it with you.

[Harlekin]

Depends, are we talking just the big 7 or the whole JLA line-up? The JLA would pretty much win in any case but it's the difference between a battle and a slaughter.

Also Quicksilver doesn't even approach the speed of most of the big 7.

[Horrorfan]

Well, I'm done here. Different strokes for different folks. If you believe the Ultimates could take every team in comicdom, I won't dispute it with you.


:up: Good choice.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thank you. Frankly, pointing things out just to have you ignore them was becoming boring. :)

[Horrorfan]

Thank you. Frankly, pointing things out just to have you ignore them was becoming boring. :)

SuperMAN. Thor, GOD of thunder ;)


And Sentry owns all the JLA at once, ever, left, right and center, and twice on sundays.

[TheCorpulent1]

See? It's best for my sanity if I just stop now.

[Horrorfan]

See? It's best for my sanity if I just stop now.

Said that two posts ago ;)

[Harlekin]

And Sentry owns all the JLA at once, ever, left, right and center, and twice on sundays.
How familiar are you with the JLA anyway? It's not just Superman y'know. I'm talking the big leagues like Orion, Phantom Stranger, Dr. Fate etc. etc.

[TheCorpulent1]

Was the Phantom Stranger ever a member? I don't recall his being on the team officially.

[Harlekin]

Was the Phantom Stranger ever a member? I don't recall his being on the team officially.
He never refused membership and did at one time refer to himself as a member, so I'd say he counts.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, I thought he was just one of their many "consultants." Which basically means he'll come if the League calls. Which, really, constitutes virtually every superhero on DC Earth, except maybe the Rocket Reds. ;)

[Harlekin]

Oh, I thought he was just one of their many "consultants." Which basically means he'll come if the League calls. Which, really, constitutes virtually every superhero on DC Earth, except maybe the Rocket Reds. ;)
Even then, if we discount him, we're still talking the Kent Nelson Dr. Fate amongst others, who was no slouch either.

[Advocate05]

JLA would decimate the Avengers ... They would laugh at the Ultimates, due to how more real-life the Ults. are compared to the 616.

Corp. - Remember You are replying to a guy who asked the question why is Thor considered so powerful. Apparently, this guy is a NOOB.

Now he's saying that Thor would destory Superman, but pages ago he asked us all why Thor is powerful. Make up your mind.

[Guyverjay]

Also, for anyone who brings up the fact that Cap didn't actually fight Thanos, he fought and defeated the Red Skull while the Skull had a Cosmic Cube. That's cosmic-level power right there, taken down by an only slightly enhanced, flesh-and-blood man.

That is reaaallllllly silly though:(

Thats almost as bad as Dr Doom with the watchers power being taken down by Blackbolt:confused:

[TheCorpulent1]

That is reaaallllllly silly though:(

Thats almost as bad as Dr Doom with the watchers power being taken down by Blackbolt:confused:
Apparently the Red Skull just doesn't know how to use a cosmic cube very well. It was written well enough for me at the time, though.

[LibrarianThorne]

I love how not being a bigotted, trigger-happy, reactionary, manipulative yesman butthole all of a sudden translates into being a "pansy."

Anypoop, when was JLA vs. Avengers referenced in DC canon? That's pretty cool.

It was referenced in Busiek's run on JLA, collected in the Syndicate Rules trade. Metron is watching the new universe that Krona created.

[MajinShenron]

JLA creaming the Avengers? I dont think so. But I will talk about the New Avengers since, its the most modern Avengers. And I am going to talk about the main Justice League characters.

Luke Cage has unbreakable skin, super strength, and is not dumb. I think he would be able to take on Johnn. But, I do think Luke would lose, but it wouldn't be by much.

Iron man could take Green Lantern in my opinion. Would it be easy? No way. But Ironman is very strong, fast, and has a good defense.

Captain America could take Batman. It would be a good and close match.

The Sentry could fight Superman. We dont know exactly how strong Sentry is so I am not sure who would win.

Spider-woman could probably beat Hawkgirl in my opinion.

Wolverine would fight Wonderwoman, but I doubt Wolverine would win. But he would fight. He could tangle with the Hulk (not winning of course) so he can stand with Wonderwoman.

And Spiderman could fight Flash. Spiderman is agile, but I doubt he could beat that incredibly fast man.

[gildea]

ultimates vs jla?

maybe they could take down one of the jla (not inc batman) if they were hungover or something....

[ElectroFlare]

Luke Cage has unbreakable skin, super strength, and is not dumb. I think he would be able to take on Johnn. But, I do think Luke would lose, but it wouldn't be by much.

By Johnn do you mean Martian Manhunter? Because I don't think Luke Cage could win that fight...if not MM, who do you mean?

[Anubis]

JLA creaming the Avengers? I dont think so. But I will talk about the New Avengers since, its the most modern Avengers. And I am going to talk about the main Justice League characters.

Luke Cage has unbreakable skin, super strength, and is not dumb. I think he would be able to take on Johnn. But, I do think Luke would lose, but it wouldn't be by much.

Are you freaking high? Jonn is like slightly under Superman and Wonder Woman in terms of strength, plus he's a Charles Xavier level telepath, plus he's a shape shifter. I mean, do you even know what the Manhunter can do?
Iron man could take Green Lantern in my opinion. Would it be easy? No way. But Ironman is very strong, fast, and has a good defense.

I think you really are high
Captain America could take Batman. It would be a good and close match.
Thats accurate/

The Sentry could fight Superman. We dont know exactly how strong Sentry is so I am not sure who would win.

The Sentry is the only one that can give them trouble. I'm still kinda conviced he could take Supes. But the entire JLA? I don't know man, because thats ultimately what it would come down to. Because the rest of these guys would be made short work of.
Spider-woman could probably beat Hawkgirl in my opinion.

Why would you include Hawkgirl when talking about the main members of the league? She was only with them for like, what? A week? Durign Obsidian Age? Or are you talking pre crisis Hawkgirl? Or Hawk Woman from Thanagar? Either way, it could go either way really.

Wolverine would fight Wonderwoman, but I doubt Wolverine would win. But he would fight. He could tangle with the Hulk (not winning of course) so he can stand with Wonderwoman.

WW would kick him into orbit.
And Spiderman could fight Flash. Spiderman is agile, but I doubt he could beat that incredibly fast man.

Correct.

You know, I get the feeling your basing your entire opinion of the League on the cartoon, which doesn't count if your using the Avengers from the comics. If thats the case then we should be doing the Justice League from the DCAU versus the Avengers Assemble team from the cartoon in the 90's. Which would be a blood bath.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm pretty sure MajinShenron was just naming the animated JLU line-up. I only agree with his assessment of the Cap/Batman and Spider-Woman/Hawkgirl fights, although Hawkgirl's not one of the core JLA members.

[herakles]

IMO JLA vs the Current lineup of Avengers would win hands down
Classic(or As powerful team assembled) JLA vs Avengers?? I say Avengers

AS far as any of the Ultimate line vs. 616 line?? Also If I recall aren't the 616 line much more stronger than the Ultimate line????
In regards to the Ultimate Hulk being more ruthless than the 616 Hulk?? ever heard of Mr Fixit.. ie. Grey Hulk??? That is one ruthless guy!!

Anyways to get back to why is Thor considered so powerful? Thor power is written as powerful or as weak as the writter wants. When Thor is written to be powerful he scares off Galactus with God Blast and causes problems to the Celestials!! When written not so powerful he beaten by Hulk and Juggeraunt with ease!! As with any comic title it depends in what the writter wants to write the character their in charge as??? !!!

[kiuju2k]

Jla would destroy the avengers especially as the avengers are now. Sentry would probably give them a good tussle but, against all of them hell no.

[BrianWilly]

Seriously. The Avengers team as they are now can barely take on teams from their own universe, much less the premiere team of the DCU.

There is no way in hell that the Ultimates can defeat the JLA. Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, or Martian Manhunter individually could probably stalemate the lot.

[TheCorpulent1]

Seriously. The Avengers team as they are now can barely take on teams from their own universe, much less the premiere team of the DCU.
Well, in all fairness, some of the other teams from the Avengers' universe could probably take the JLA's big seven. The Defenders, for one--especially if you include some of the other major members besides the 4 main Defenders, like Valkyrie and Nighthawk.

[Mr. Green]

And imagine if Thor joined the Defenders. :eek:

That would definately seal a victory against the JLA, IMO. :)

[TheCorpulent1]

It'd be cool if someone got a mini-series greenlit with the specific purpose of creating the single most powerful team in the Marvel universe. Dr. Strange, King Thor, the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Hercules, maybe Quasar... I can't think of anyone else, I'm tired.

[Mr. Green]

I still say Ultimate could take 616 Hulk
Well... You are probably the only one.

And even if the Supes thing WAS in continuity, Supes would decimate Ultimate Hulk without even trying. There is no real point there.

[Zenien]

OFFTOPIC

Now, JLA/Avengers is at least in DC continuity.

Really, in what way? Has it been referenced at all?

/OFF TOPIC

[Vanguard07]

Well, in all fairness, some of the other teams from the Avengers' universe could probably take the JLA's big seven. The Defenders, for one--especially if you include some of the other major members besides the 4 main Defenders, like Valkyrie and Nighthawk.

Or the Infinity watch. Thanos, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Drax, Moondragon and Maxam.
They'd sure give the JLA a run for their money.

[Genesis 1.0]

What the hell happened to 'Why is Thor so powerful'? He posed the bloody question and says he has some concept of the answer now, we've already got JLA/Avengers thread.

[bkhedr]

What the hell happened to 'Why is Thor so powerful'? He posed the bloody question and says he has some concept of the answer now, we've already got JLA/Avengers thread.

The question was "why is thor considered so powerful" and I think its been settled

[Genesis 1.0]

I aksed him what, 2 pages ago? He says he has some idea now, he won't be beaten down into another view so this thread is effectively used up. All it's turned to now is a debate that's been done to death.

[LibrarianThorne]

OFFTOPIC



Really, in what way? Has it been referenced at all?

/OFF TOPIC

It was one of the main subjects of Busiek's run on JLA, collected in JLA: Syndicate Rules. The universe that Krona created at the end of JLA/Avengers is under monitoring by both the JLA and Metron of the New Gods.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or the Infinity watch. Thanos, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Drax, Moondragon and Maxam.
They'd sure give the JLA a run for their money.
Yeah, they're another incredibly powerful team. The JLA would probably have to start calling in reserves to deal with them.

[Horrorfan]

A couple of questions about trades....what trade can I get the Thor vs Colossus fight in? And when is the next Ultimates trade out? And whats been going on in ultimate x men lately? Last one I read was magnetic north...

[Horrorfan]

Anyone?

[Anubis]

It was in Ultimate war. I read it when it came out so I couldn't say what trade it was in. I know it's in one of the Ultimate X-men ones though. Possibly in with Return of the king.

[Vartha]

Well IF they leave the rune powers to Thor, he WILL be more powerful than most of the characters

[Guyverjay]

It'd be cool if someone got a mini-series greenlit with the specific purpose of creating the single most powerful team in the Marvel universe. Dr. Strange, King Thor, the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Hercules, maybe Quasar... I can't think of anyone else, I'm tired.


Funnily enough a similar team invaded Asgard in blood and thunder

It was Dr strange, Surfer, Thanos, Adam Warlock and the infinty watch if I recall