The Justice League of AMERICA???

[Fantasyartist]

I've always been a bit curious about the primary relationship between the JLA and the United States Government. Are they primarily deputized to act on behalf of the Feds? Can they operate in other countries besides the US-even if both the local authorities and resident superheroes object? Does the Federal Government have jusrisdiction to demand that the JLA accept Affirmative action programmes in whom they hire( African Americans,Hispanics, Orientals, women). Can they veto any proposed member because of security considerations- it's hard to imagine the JLA offering an Iranian or North Korean hero/heroine membership). i admit these questions are frequently asked in the pages of the JLA's Marvel counterparts- the Avengers-but these seem not to asked about the JLA?

[The Question]

Origionally, The League was sanctioned by the U.S. military and defense department. During the Giffen/DeMattes years, it became a U.N. sponsored peace keeping taskforce. It retains that U.N. sponsorship to this day, even though they keep the "A" in their name.

[drastic_quench]

I wish the relaunch would simply be titled Justice League.

[Lackey]

I've always been a bit curious about the primary relationship between the JLA and the United States Government. Are they primarily deputized to act on behalf of the Feds? Can they operate in other countries besides the US-even if both the local authorities and resident superheroes object?


Read Gail Simone's current story in JLA:Classified.

[CAPT. MARVEL]

I wouldn't mind them dropping the A, but considering that they are based in the Americas, most of their members are American, and that most of the readership is from North America(the US in particular) I think the A makes some sense.

[celldog]

I wish the relaunch would simply be titled Justice League.


Why?

[celldog]

Why the issue with the country that birth this idea in the first place?? America created the idea of the "Super Hero". It like hot dogs and apple pie.

If was the JLC (Canada) would you still want it dropped??

[The Question]

Yes. The team is international in scope. "Of America" just don't fit. Besides, Aquaman and Wonder Woman are both royalty from other countries, and Martian Manhunter is an alien with citizenship in about 50 different countries. Also, the concept of the super hero is not native to America. America was just the place where someone made money off of it.

[UK_Stu]

Why the issue with the country that birth this idea in the first place?? America created the idea of the "Super Hero". It like hot dogs and apple pie.

If was the JLC (Canada) would you still want it dropped??

I'm pretty sure the concept of Superhero isn't an American invention...

[HuyLantern]

I think the reason why the series is going back to the Justice of America tag, is beause of nostalgic values. THe team was first named that, it was created in america by the way.

[KingOfDreams]

I wish the relaunch would simply be titled Justice League.

So do I.

[Dwarf lord]

I couldn't care less what it's called. Just give me a good story.

[TheCorpulent1]

I doubt other countries want a predominantly American team dropping into their borders and giving them unsolicited help. Hell, Hal almost got killed by the Russian military for doing just that in the first post-OYL Green Lantern issue. The JLA, regardless of where their missions take them, are predominantly American and they handle predominantly American problems in predominantly American ways. Their values, code of honor, and everything else about them is predominantly American; we've seen the JLA's American-inspired way of doing things get them into trouble with other nations in a few arcs, in fact. Their de facto "leader" is the biggest superhero icon in America. The "of America" ending fits, in my opinion.

[The Question]

Thing is, three of their members are not American, and at least two of them either don't share the prodminantly American values that Superman has (Wonder Woman), or just don't like the U.S. government all that much (Aquaman). The Justice League International years handeled this better. The League was an international organization that responded to the U.N. directly.

[KingOfDreams]

I couldn't care less what it's called. Just give me a good story.

Ultimately that is the only thing that matters, I agree.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thing is, three of their members are not American, and at least two of them either don't share the prodminantly American values that Superman has (Wonder Woman), or just don't like the U.S. government all that much (Aquaman). The Justice League International years handeled this better. The League was an international organization that responded to the U.N. directly.
Three members isn't a majority. The League, as a general rule, tends to follow Superman and Batman's recommendations. Two Americans. The former of whom is basically the embodiment of all that is wholesome in America. I've always found that the League, more often than not, tends to think and act like Americans as a whole.

[Kane]

Its all about America. Best country in the world.

[The Question]

Three members isn't a majority. The League, as a general rule, tends to follow Superman and Batman's recommendations. Two Americans. The former of whom is basically the embodiment of all that is wholesome in America. I've always found that the League, more often than not, tends to think and act like Americans as a whole.


True. But also remember, while Superman is a symbol of what's good about America, Batman's a product of what's wrong with it. Violence, poverty, corruption, and the such. And he tends to be rather ani government. Personally, I'd prefer if they dropped the "America". I mean, Superman himself has said that the League owes no loyalties to any single government, but to all the countries of the world. Like I said, I prefered the years where they were the Justice League International. Or, just refered to as the Justice League.

[Kane]

America......f^ck yeah! Coming down to save the motherf^cking day.

America......f^ck yeah! Freedom is the only way.

[TheCorpulent1]

Batman represents an attempt to overcome those negative influences, as far as I've seen. At least the poverty, corruption, and stuff. I can see an argument for Batman as the ultimate embodiment of America's particular brand of fear tactics, but come on. Violence, poverty, and corruption are hardly unique to America. Every country in the entire world has had its share of those things, and some of them put even America's to shame.

[The Question]

Very true. I guess the reason I site it is because America is so big and influencial that when it shows up there, it's more noticable. Anyway, I just think dropping the "America" bit from the name makes more sense story wise. Some current and many former members owe no aleigence to the U.S. whatsoever.

[hippie_hunter]

True. But also remember, while Superman is a symbol of what's good about America, Batman's a product of what's wrong with it. Violence, poverty, corruption, and the such. And he tends to be rather ani government. Personally, I'd prefer if they dropped the "America". I mean, Superman himself has said that the League owes no loyalties to any single government, but to all the countries of the world. Like I said, I prefered the years where they were the Justice League International. Or, just refered to as the Justice League.

Also, don't forget that Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and Wonder Woman aren't even Americans. And other former members such as the New Gods, Rocket Red, Fire, Ice, Dr. Light, Adam Strange, and others came from other planets and nations.

Justice League makes more sense than Justice League of America.

[The Question]

As I mentioned.....


Thing is, three of their members are not American, and at least two of them either don't share the prodminantly American values that Superman has (Wonder Woman), or just don't like the U.S. government all that much (Aquaman). The Justice League International years handeled this better. The League was an international organization that responded to the U.N. directly.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor was never an American, but he worked with the Avengers while they were sanctioned by the US government. I don't see what the citizenship of a few members has to do with it when the overwhelming majority of the characters are still Americans.

[The Question]

But the Avengers weren't called "Avengers of America". And the League is U.N. sponsored, not U.S. sponsored

[TheCorpulent1]

It doesn't matter either way to me. I was fine with it when they took off the last initial for the cartoon. I'm just pointing out that there may be a justification for it in the group's membership and methods.

[Kurosawa]

The main reason for the name is because Barry named the team in honor of the JSA. And I think they keep the team name as the "Justice League of America" out of respect for Barry and for the JSA themselves. Nothing wrong with that.

[CAPT. MARVEL]

oh God, the JLA isn't still under the U.N. is it? Talk about corruption....

[ToddIsDead]

I see no reason that the name should be changed. It's had the name for 40-odd years, and there's no reason to change it now.

[Harlekin]

Eh, I don't mind the 'America' bit. It's a tribute to the JSA.

[The Leaguer]

I like the "of America" part because it's way cooler. You wouldn't see Superman going around saying, "I'm JL." That's lame. "I'm JLA" is much cooler.

[TheCorpulent1]

In the cartoon, after beating the crap out of Captain Atom Superman shouted at the government soldiers who were trying to help him, "Get away from him! He's Justice League!" That works about as well as "He's JLA."

[The Leaguer]

No way. Acronyms are cooler than words by definition.

[TheCorpulent1]

omg lolz no u didnt!!!11

[The Leaguer]

ur such a JL fanboy

[Dwarf lord]

Also, don't forget that Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and Wonder Woman aren't even Americans. And other former members such as the New Gods, Rocket Red, Fire, Ice, Dr. Light, Adam Strange, and others came from other planets and nations.

Justice League makes more sense than Justice League of America.

To be fair Rocket Red, Fire, Ice, or Dr. Light were never on the JLA.

[The Question]

oh God, the JLA isn't still under the U.N. is it? Talk about corruption....



Last time I checked, that's who they answer to.

[The Leaguer]

Since when? From what I've seen (the entire modern JLA series), the JLA only reports to the UN as a sign of respect and so they don't leave the world in the dark about what they're doing. Ever since Morrison relaunched it, at least, it has never "answered" to the UN.

[The Question]

They don't mention it much, but I'm fairly certain that they do. I mean, logically, the nations of the world would not want a group like that to act completely on their own.

[The Leaguer]

Which is the whole reason the JLA even includes the UN in their affairs. The JLA don't want to take the future away from normal humans, so they make sure to keep their global government informed. Ever since the very beginning of Morrison's run, including the JLA's reformation, I can only think of the UN actually being consulted once, and that was in issue 100, where WW addressed the UN about the Elite, and that was just to ask for help. Not once was any indication made that the JLA answered to them.

[The Question]

No indication that they didn't, either. And they have been shown answering to them in the past. I don't see why a roster change would change that.

[Infinity9999x]

Why the issue with the country that birth this idea in the first place?? America created the idea of the "Super Hero". It like hot dogs and apple pie.

If was the JLC (Canada) would you still want it dropped??

actually Apples were European, and I think they were the first to create apple pie.....


I just wanted to say that, no real reason.

[The Question]

Also, hot dogd are german. And fremch fries are from Belgium. French Toast was made in New York, though.

[Infinity9999x]

Also, hot dogd are german. And fremch fries are from Belgium. French Toast was made in New York, though.

really? Why do other countries always name foods after France if they're not French?

[Dwarf lord]

edit: Answered by Q

[UK_Stu]

Also, hot dogd are german. And fremch fries are from Belgium. French Toast was made in New York, though.

Well the 'hot dog' sausage is german, but the idea of putting the sausage in a bun and calling it a hot dog is a US invention

[The Question]

really? Why do other countries always name foods after France if they're not French?


They speak French in Belgium. Don't know about the French Toast, though.

[CAPT. MARVEL]

I think the JLA should consult with the nations of the world, but I do not think that they should be under the jurisdiction of anyone. Theres just way too much corruption in the governments of the world today to attach them to a specific nation or for that matter group of nations.

[Harlekin]

They speak French in Belgium. Don't know about the French Toast, though.
Still makes it ridicilious, since it's actually the Dutch-speaking portion of Belgium that is famous for fries. In the end it hardly matters since the Spanish also claim themselves to be the originators of the fries.

The actual reason beind 'french' fries, is apparently (according to wiki) simply based on the manner in which they are created, through deep frying. Supposedly dubbed the 'French manner'.

[The Leaguer]

No indication that they didn't, either. And they have been shown answering to them in the past. I don't see why a roster change would change that.
There's also no direct indication that Supergirl doesn't answer to the Guardians, does that mean we're to assume that she's a Green Lantern?

The fact is, they have NOT been shown to answer to the UN in their present incarnation, and absolutely no hints at all have been given that indicate that they answer to the UN off-panel. It just doesn't happen. With the evidence we are given, the only assumption that can be made is that they are completely independent of the UN. To assume that they aren't just because a completely different team wasn't is nonsense.

[The Question]

There's also no direct indication that Supergirl doesn't answer to the Guardians, does that mean we're to assume that she's a Green Lantern?



The fact is, they have NOT been shown to answer to the UN in their present incarnation, and absolutely no hints at all have been given that indicate that they answer to the UN off-panel. It just doesn't happen. With the evidence we are given, the only assumption that can be made is that they are completely independent of the UN. To assume that they aren't just because a completely different team wasn't is nonsense.



Well, they made no mention of no longer having ties to the U.N. after the roster change. So, I'd assume that they still have those ties, but they simply haven't been mentioned.

[The Leaguer]

Well, they made no mention of no longer having ties to the U.N. after the roster change. So, I'd assume that they still have those ties, but they simply haven't been mentioned.
That doesn't make any sense. This is (was) a completely new team, completely separate from the Leagues before. They started over. Unless they directly state they have ties to the UN, the only assumption that can be made is that they don't.

[The Question]

I suppose.

[celldog]

I'm pretty sure the concept of Superhero isn't an American invention...



Superman is the "First" super hero ever. The comic strip was evented here!! From that came the comic book. All in America! Why is that a bad thing for you??? :supes:

[celldog]

Clark Kent .......American
Bruce Wayne .....American
Hal Jordan.......American & Military
Ollie Queen ......American
Barry Allen........American
Dinah Lance........American
Ray Palmer........American
Carter Hall.........Naturalized Amercan
John Jones........Naturalized American
Snapper Carr.......Mascot American

Not American:
Wonder Woman
Aquaman.........But the original's dad was an American lighthouse keeper. So he has dual citizenship. :up: :)



Stop the hate.

And just because they help people in more than just the USA, why is that an issue in the name??? Does the "country" America doe the same as well. Should American change its name just because we send more aid around the world (financially & tangibly) than any nation on earth??

[celldog]

oops.....

Wally West......American

Kyle Rayner.......American :)

[celldog]

Double oops!!!

John Stewart.........American :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

We send less aid proportionally than most other world powers, though. Remember, we have one of, if not the, highest GDPs in the world, too.

[32CAGE]

I couldn't care less what it's called. Just give me a good story.


ditto--------------------

[The Batman]

They're the Justice League of America, not FOR America. The JLA formed in America. Dosent mean they only serve america.

[celldog]

They're the Justice League of America, not FOR America. The JLA formed in America. Dosent mean they only serve america.


That's right!!

[celldog]

We send less aid proportionally than most other world powers, though. Remember, we have one of, if not the, highest GDPs in the world, too.

Where you getting that info??? That's a load of.....horse poop. We were the only ones that even sent military to help Tsunami victims....

[celldog]

The annual Foreign Operations appropriations bill, seen as the most reliable way of assessing how much the United States spends on foreign assistance, is $20.7 billion for fiscal year 2006. President Bush has asked for $23.7 billion for 2007. If approved, that would mark a near doubling of foreign assistance since 1997. In 2004, official development assistance (ODA) from the United States was 0.16 percent of its GNP. The ODA, which involves grants or loans a government gives to a development country to promote economic development and welfare, excludes military assistance that makes up a major portion of U.S. foreign aid appropriations—from $3 billion to $6 billion annually during the past ten years, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Defenders of U.S. aid levels say the 2004 figures do not fully represent the major new projects under MCC and the HIV/AIDS account. They also stress the high level of U.S. private sector donations not included in ODA and the role of the U.S. military, which was a critical source of relief supplies after the Indian Ocean tsunami hit at the end of 2004.

More than 100 countries get aid from America, though a handful of them receive the largest share. Israel and Egypt have traditionally been the single-largest recipients of U.S. aid, dating back to the 1978 Camp David peace accords between the two countries. For the current fiscal year, Israel will receive $2.49 billion in aid, of which $2.25 billion is military assistance. Egypt is to receive $1.78 billion, of which $1.28 billion is military assistance. Afghanistan and Iraq, involved in massive U.S.-led nation-building efforts, and Pakistan, an important ally in the war on terrorism, also receive huge amounts of foreign aid.
:up:

[The Question]

Superman is the "First" super hero ever. The comic strip was evented here!! From that came the comic book. All in America! Why is that a bad thing for you??? :supes:

Superman wasn't the first super hero ever. He was simply the first comic book super hero. Doc Savage, The Shadow, Zorro, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Herculese, Robin Hood, all of them could be considered "super heroes" in some way or another.

Clark Kent .......American
Bruce Wayne .....American
Hal Jordan.......American & Military
Ollie Queen ......American
Barry Allen........American
Dinah Lance........American
Ray Palmer........American

Beatriz DaCosta........Brazillian
Tora Olifsdotter........Norweigian
Kimiyo Hoshi........Japanese
Dimitriyevich Pushkin........Russian
Vivian d'Aramis........French
Constance d'Aramis........French
Mari Jiwe McCabe........unspecified African country
Zauriel.......heavenly entity
Orion.......New Genisis
Barda Free.......Apokolipse/New genisis
Scott Free.......Apokolipse/New Genisis

John Jones........Naturalized American

Actually, he has citizenship under false aliases in most of the world's nations. Technically, J'onn Jonzz is not and American citizen.

Aquaman.........But the original's dad was an American lighthouse keeper. So he has dual citizenship. :up: :)

No, he doesn't. His father was Atlantian. His adoptive father (who never legally adopted him) was American, but Aquaman has no American citizenship.

Stop the hate.

There is no hate.

And just because they help people in more than just the USA, why is that an issue in the name??? Does the "country" America doe the same as well. Should American change its name just because we send more aid around the world (financially & tangibly) than any nation on earth??

That's only because the U.S. has more resources. I'd think that if Britain were as rich as were are, they'd have as much charity stuff going on in other countries. But that's not the point. The League is not made up entirely of Americans. It's scope is much larfer than just America. It doesn't even answer to the U.S. government. The "of America" part is a remnant of cold war patriotism that really needs to go away.

[yenaled]

Where you getting that info??? That's a load of.....horse poop. We were the only ones that even sent military to help Tsunami victims....

Aid vs. GDP as a percentage (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp).

In hard dollars America gives the most fund out of any major world power. But as a percentage to it's own GDP it gives the second lowest amount of Aid. Bearing in mind there was an act passed by the UN that every country would give 0.7% of it's gdp in aid, and America only gives 0.12% (even though only about 4 countries reached 0.7%).

It's not that America don't give aid they just give a disproportionate amount of aid compaired to how rich the country is.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, which is what I said. That's what the word "proportionally" means.

[celldog]

Superman wasn't the first super hero ever. He was simply the first comic book super hero. Doc Savage, The Shadow, Zorro, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Herculese, Robin Hood, all of them could be considered "super heroes" in some way or another.



Beatriz DaCosta........Brazillian
Tora Olifsdotter........Norweigian
Kimiyo Hoshi........Japanese
Dimitriyevich Pushkin........Russian
Vivian d'Aramis........French
Constance d'Aramis........French
Mari Jiwe McCabe........unspecified African country
Zauriel.......heavenly entity
Orion.......New Genisis
Barda Free.......Apokolipse/New genisis
Scott Free.......Apokolipse/New Genisis


And none of them were founding members!! :) They were allowed to join the club. Just like foreigners are allowed to join this country. So that changes nothing. And how many of those straglers stuck around?? Zero! So why should the JLA change its name for heroes whose membership is spotty at best.


Actually, he has citizenship under false aliases in most of the world's nations. Technically, J'onn Jonzz is not and American citizen.

He was a private detective. You need citizenship to do that.



No, he doesn't. His father was Atlantian. His adoptive father (who never legally adopted him) was American, but Aquaman has no American citizenship.

Silver age Aquaman does. That's when the JLA was created. I'm not talking about that retcon crap.


There is no hate.

Jealousy then. :)



That's only because the U.S. has more resources. I'd think that if Britain were as rich as were are, they'd have as much charity stuff going on in other countries. But that's not the point. The League is not made up entirely of Americans. It's scope is much larfer than just America.


And so is America's scope. We don't just care about our own well-being. We help other countries.

It doesn't even answer to the U.S. government. The "of America" part is a remnant of cold war patriotism that really needs to go away.

Naaaah......patriotism needs to stay. :up: You need more of it.



PS.... I can't believe it's you again. :down

[celldog]

Aid vs. GDP as a percentage (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp).

In hard dollars America gives the most fund out of any major world power. But as a percentage to it's own GDP it gives the second lowest amount of Aid. Bearing in mind there was an act passed by the UN that every country would give 0.7% of it's gdp in aid, and America only gives 0.12% (even though only about 4 countries reached 0.7%).

It's not that America don't give aid they just give a disproportionate amount of aid compaired to how rich the country is.



That's because our population is able to take up the slack! Capitalism rocks, baby!!! The private sector gives a a rate that is not calculated into the gov't dollars. Plus, add in the military aid we provide, there is no comparison......

[The Question]

And none of them were founding members!! :) They were allowed to join the club. Just like foreigners are allowed to join this country. So that changes nothing. And how many of those straglers stuck around?? Zero! So why should the JLA change its name for heroes whose membership is spotty at best.

Superman, Batman, and Green Arrow weren't founders either. The founders were Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash, and Black Canary. And, two out of the five origionals are not American.


He was a private detective. You need citizenship to do that.

John Jones is a detective. John Jones is an alias. A person that does not technically exist anywhere but on forged documents. J'onn Jonzz is not an American citizen.

Silver age Aquaman does. That's when the JLA was created. I'm not talking about that retcon crap.

If you're not going to stick to the continuity, you should at least say so.

Jealousy then. :)

Jeasous of what?

And so is America's scope. We don't just care about our own well-being. We help other countries.

It's not the same. Yes, the U.S. government does giv aid to other countries. But it's primary concern is the United States of America. That's not the case with the League.

Naaaah......patriotism needs to stay. :up:

Notice how I said "cold war patriotism", not patriotism in general. Adding the "of America" at the end was apart of the cold war mentality to show that all the good guys are good ol' fasioned Americans. Now, the League is very international in it's scope, and has had members from all different countries of the world. The "of America" bit really makes no sense.

You need more of it.

No, I'm plenty patriotic.

That's because our population is able to take up the slack! Capitalism rocks, baby!!! The private sector gives a a rate that is not calculated into the gov't dollars. Plus, add in the military aid we provide, there is no comparison......

That still doesn't change the fact that out international aid is not preportionate to our wealth. We give out alot, but percentage wise, other countries give alot more. We could, easily, do much more than we do. But we don't.

[Green Lantern]

To be fair Rocket Red, Fire, Ice, or Dr. Light were never on the JLA.Actually Fire and Ice WERE on the Justice League America as that was the title of the book during the Death of Superman era, and both of them were around for that. However, I'm under the opinion that it deserves to be named the JLA. After all, lets look at the ORIGINAL Silver Age line up and who joined when. Hell, for arguments sake we'll count Aquaman as non for this:

Superman, Batman, Green Lantern (Hal), Flash (Barry) all red blooded American
Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter all not. So the original 7 (which at the end of IC 6 it looks like is back in continuity) 4/7 were American.

Green Arrow, Atom, Hawkman, Black Canary, Phantom Stranger were the next five to join. Four of them were definitely American with PS being baseless. That puts membership at 12 members with 8/12 being American.

The last five to join that group before the first massive reorginization: Elongated Man, Red Tornado, Hawkwoman, Zatanna, and Firestorm. Membership now 17, with 13/17 Americans.

First reorginization:

Detroit era: Aquaman, Zatanna, Elongated Man, Martian Manhunter stayed on. 2/4 American

Vibe joined (Puerto Rican - American)
Steel joined (American)
Vixen joined (African)
Gypsy joined (American)

New membership 8 members, five American. Still a majority.

Next reorginization: Now having UN sanction and having dropped the America brand for a time. (Issues 1-6 were JL; 7-25 were JLI, then the title changed to JLA and added JLE as a second title)

Membership of the JL/JLI/JLA portion:
Blue Beetle II (Ted Kord) - American
Captain Marvel - American
Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson) - American
Green Lantern IV (Guy Gardner) - American
Mister Miracle - Alien
Booster Gold - American
Fire (initially Green Flame) - Brazillian
Ice (initially Icemaiden II) (Tora Olafsdotter) - Norweigian
Doctor Light IV (Kimiyo Hoshi) - Japanese
Captain Atom - American
Rocket Red 7 (a Manhunter cyborg) - Alien
Rocket Red 4/13 (Dimitri Pushkin) - Russian
Hawkman II - American
Hawkwoman - American
Huntress - American
Doctor Fate II (Linda Strauss) - American
Lightray - Alien
Orion - Alien
General Glory - American
Bloodwynd - Later revealed to be Martian Manhunter - Alien
Maxima - Alien
Ray II (Ray Terrill) - American
Maya - Indian
Flash (Jay Garrick) - American

Total membership of that team: 24 members, 13 American. Still a majority.

The Europe branch:

* Animal Man - American
* Flash III (Wally West) - American
* Metamorpho - American
* Power Girl - American
* Crimson Fox (Vivian D'aramis) - French
* Crimson Fox II (Constance D'aramis) - French
* Blue Jay - Alien
* Silver Sorceress - Alien
* Tasmanian Devil - Tasmanian
9 members, 2 European, 4 American.

Then with the next reformation there were three teams:

America:
Wonder Woman, Flash II, Fire, Metamorpho, Crimson Fox, Hawkman, Nuclon, Obsidian, Blue Devil, Ice Maiden. 10 members, 6 American. Still a majority.

Task Force:
Martian Manhunter, Gypsy, Ray II, Despero II, Mystek, and Triumph. 6 members 3 American.

Extreme Justice:
Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Maxima, Firestorm, the Wonder Twins, Amazing Man II, and Plastique (Canuck). 9 members, 5 American.

Then was the last reformation, the JLA era:

Flash, Superman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern (Kyle), and Martian Manhunter founding. 4/7 American

# Tomorrow Woman - Robot
# Aztek - Mexican
# Green Arrow II (Connor Hawke) - American
# Oracle - American
# Plastic Man - American
# Steel III (John Henry Irons) - American
# Zauriel - Angel
# Wonder Woman III (Hippolyta) - Themyscrian
# Big Barda - Alien
# Hourman III (Matthew Tyler) - Robot
* Antaeus - American
* Nightwing - American
* Faith - American
* Hawkgirl II (Kendra Saunders) - American
* Jason Blood (Etrigan, The Demon) - British
* Green Lantern III (John Stewart) - American
* Manitou Raven - Native American
Plus several former members that we've already talked about. Out of the new members: 10/17 American

It has always been predominantly an American team, even when it WAS the Justice League International or the Justice League Europe.

[The Question]

Wow. That was thorough. And even so, I still think the "of America" bit just doesn't fit. They've had non American members in the past, and the only reason that the Leagu has so many American members is because America has the largest metahuman population (seeing as how it has the second largest population, next to China).

[Darthphere]

Anybody who is an alien on the JLA is an illegal immigrant and should be sent back to Mexico.

[Jason Blood]

I wish the relaunch would simply be titled Justice League.
but the Freedom of Power Treaty makes the America argument obsolete

[batnkevlar]

So that takes out Superman, Martian Manhunter, Red Tornado, Kyle Rayner's ring...

now presenting: The Justice League of Mexico! Starring Superman, Martian Manhunter, Red Tornado's essence, and the ring of Kyle Rayner!!!

[Dr. Mid-Nite]

Superman, Batman, and Green Arrow weren't founders either. The founders were Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash, and Black Canary. And, two out of the five origionals are not American.

You forgot Green Lantern, he was one of the founder also.


-Doc

[celldog]

Superman, Batman, and Green Arrow weren't founders either. The founders were Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash, and Black Canary. And, two out of the five origionals are not American.


The whole Justice League of Ameria concept was created in the late 1950's by Gardner Fox!! You can't make a judgement based on all the friggin' changes they've made thru the years. JLA Had Superman, Batman, Flash Green Lantern . Pretty American to me.....not to mention their HQ was just outside of Metropolis
ON AMERICAN SOIL!! :up:


John Jones is a detective. John Jones is an alias. A person that does not technically exist anywhere but on forged documents. J'onn Jonzz is not an American citizen.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY WERE FORGED??



If you're not going to stick to the continuity, you should at least say so.

I'M STICKING TO THE CONCEPT THAT STARTED IT ALL.

Jeasous of what?



It's not the same. Yes, the U.S. government does give aid to other countries. But it's primary concern is the United States of America. That's not the case with the League.

Since when?? All of those heroes have home cities dude.....U.S. cities. :up: Their homes and their country are primary. They just get together for universal world crushing stuff.


[/B]

Notice how I said "cold war patriotism", not patriotism in general. Adding the "of America" at the end was apart of the cold war mentality to show that all the good guys are good ol' fasioned Americans. Now, the League is very international in it's scope, and has had members from all different countries of the world. The "of America" bit really makes no sense.


]What is it with you?? Why does it pain you so, to say that this the greatest place to live on this globe. Notice I didn't say perfect! There is no such thing! Just ask those illegals who want to stay here! :eek: It's so ironic. It takes an immigrant to tell a a natural-born U.S. citizen how good he has it made.[/B] We're spoiled... :thing:

No, I'm plenty patriotic.

No you're not. You bad mouth the U.S. every chance you get. I say something positive...here you come with the "yeah buts". We've been going at it for months now. Why don't you just move. Go to one of great other great societies you always taught over the U.S. See that's other great thing about this country. You can leave any time you want. :)

That still doesn't change the fact that out international aid is not preportionate to our wealth. We give out alot, but percentage wise, other countries give alot more. We could, easily, do much more than we do. But we don't.


That does chance things. My point is that our taxes would go through the
roof to support what we do. That's why the private donations take up the slack. Add them together ...along with the military.........NO CONTEST!! :up:

[celldog]

Actually Fire and Ice WERE on the Justice League America as that was the title of the book during the Death of Superman era, and both of them were around for that. However, I'm under the opinion that it deserves to be named the JLA. After all, lets look at the ORIGINAL Silver Age line up and who joined when. Hell, for arguments sake we'll count Aquaman as non for this:

Superman, Batman, Green Lantern (Hal), Flash (Barry) all red blooded American
Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter all not. So the original 7 (which at the end of IC 6 it looks like is back in continuity) 4/7 were American.

Green Arrow, Atom, Hawkman, Black Canary, Phantom Stranger were the next five to join. Four of them were definitely American with PS being baseless. That puts membership at 12 members with 8/12 being American.

The last five to join that group before the first massive reorginization: Elongated Man, Red Tornado, Hawkwoman, Zatanna, and Firestorm. Membership now 17, with 13/17 Americans.

First reorginization:

Detroit era: Aquaman, Zatanna, Elongated Man, Martian Manhunter stayed on. 2/4 American

Vibe joined (Puerto Rican - American)
Steel joined (American)
Vixen joined (African)
Gypsy joined (American)

New membership 8 members, five American. Still a majority.

Next reorginization: Now having UN sanction and having dropped the America brand for a time. (Issues 1-6 were JL; 7-25 were JLI, then the title changed to JLA and added JLE as a second title)

Membership of the JL/JLI/JLA portion:
Blue Beetle II (Ted Kord) - American
Captain Marvel - American
Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson) - American
Green Lantern IV (Guy Gardner) - American
Mister Miracle - Alien
Booster Gold - American
Fire (initially Green Flame) - Brazillian
Ice (initially Icemaiden II) (Tora Olafsdotter) - Norweigian
Doctor Light IV (Kimiyo Hoshi) - Japanese
Captain Atom - American
Rocket Red 7 (a Manhunter cyborg) - Alien
Rocket Red 4/13 (Dimitri Pushkin) - Russian
Hawkman II - American
Hawkwoman - American
Huntress - American
Doctor Fate II (Linda Strauss) - American
Lightray - Alien
Orion - Alien
General Glory - American
Bloodwynd - Later revealed to be Martian Manhunter - Alien
Maxima - Alien
Ray II (Ray Terrill) - American
Maya - Indian
Flash (Jay Garrick) - American

Total membership of that team: 24 members, 13 American. Still a majority.

The Europe branch:

* Animal Man - American
* Flash III (Wally West) - American
* Metamorpho - American
* Power Girl - American
* Crimson Fox (Vivian D'aramis) - French
* Crimson Fox II (Constance D'aramis) - French
* Blue Jay - Alien
* Silver Sorceress - Alien
* Tasmanian Devil - Tasmanian
9 members, 2 European, 4 American.

Then with the next reformation there were three teams:

America:
Wonder Woman, Flash II, Fire, Metamorpho, Crimson Fox, Hawkman, Nuclon, Obsidian, Blue Devil, Ice Maiden. 10 members, 6 American. Still a majority.

Task Force:
Martian Manhunter, Gypsy, Ray II, Despero II, Mystek, and Triumph. 6 members 3 American.

Extreme Justice:
Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Maxima, Firestorm, the Wonder Twins, Amazing Man II, and Plastique (Canuck). 9 members, 5 American.

Then was the last reformation, the JLA era:

Flash, Superman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern (Kyle), and Martian Manhunter founding. 4/7 American

# Tomorrow Woman - Robot
# Aztek - Mexican
# Green Arrow II (Connor Hawke) - American
# Oracle - American
# Plastic Man - American
# Steel III (John Henry Irons) - American
# Zauriel - Angel
# Wonder Woman III (Hippolyta) - Themyscrian
# Big Barda - Alien
# Hourman III (Matthew Tyler) - Robot
* Antaeus - American
* Nightwing - American
* Faith - American
* Hawkgirl II (Kendra Saunders) - American
* Jason Blood (Etrigan, The Demon) - British
* Green Lantern III (John Stewart) - American
* Manitou Raven - Native American
Plus several former members that we've already talked about. Out of the new members: 10/17 American

It has always been predominantly an American team, even when it WAS the Justice League International or the Justice League Europe.


:eek: :eek: DANG!! Thank You Mr. Spock

[The Question]

The whole Justice League of Ameria concept was created in the late 1950's by Gardner Fox!! You can't make a judgement based on all the friggin' changes they've made thru the years. JLA Had Superman, Batman, Flash Green Lantern . Pretty American to me.....not to mention their HQ was just outside of Metropolis
ON AMERICAN SOIL!! :up:

The descision to add the "of America" bit from the end stemmed from the cold war mentality at the time. That mentality is no longer in place. I see no reason to keep the "of America".

HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY WERE FORGED??

Because:

1) John Jones was never actually born.

2) John Jones never atended any form of academia prior to the police acadamy.

3) John Jones was never given a social security number.

4) John Jones has never been to a doctor, or had a dental apointment.


J'onn would need documented proof of all of these to pass as a human long enough to become a detective. Thus, he must have forged documents that gave the illusion of John Jones having actually existed.

I'M STICKING TO THE CONCEPT THAT STARTED IT ALL.

Fine.

Since when?? All of those heroes have home cities dude.....U.S. cities. :up: Their homes and their country are primary. They just get together for universal world crushing stuff.

Again, not the same. The League's scope (not the individual members, but the League as a whole) is global. As a group, they favor no country over another. The U.S. government, on the other hand, favors one country over all others all the time. The U.S.

What is it with you?? Why does it pain you so, to say that this the greatest place to live on this globe. Notice I didn't say perfect! There is no such thing! Just ask those illegals who want to stay here! :eek: It's so ironic. It takes an immigrant to tell a a natural-born U.S. citizen how good he has it made.[/b] We're spoiled... :thing:

*raises hand*

OOH! OOH! I have a question! What the **** does that have to do with what I just said?

No you're not. You bad mouth the U.S. every chance you get. I say something positive...here you come with the "yeah buts". We've been going at it for months now. Why don't you just move. Go to one of great other great societies you always taught over the U.S. See that's other great thing about this country. You can leave any time you want. :)

I'm under 18, have no job, and no means of transportation. I would have no way of leaving this country. Nor would I ever want to. I love the U.S. And I am plenty patriotic. I'm just not blinded by patriotism. I recognize when the government is wrong and when it does bad things. A true patriot doesn't support the government with everything they do. A true patriot questions the government as to make the country better.

That does chance things. My point is that our taxes would go through the
roof to support what we do. That's why the private donations take up the slack. Add them together ...along with the military.........NO CONTEST!! :up:

Yes contest. In terms of percentage, other countries do more for international aid than we do. Alot of our money goes to the military, and other government programs. A rather small percent goes to international aid.

[celldog]

The descision to add the "of America" bit from the end stemmed from the cold war mentality at the time. That mentality is no longer in place. I see no reason to keep the "of America".



Because:

1) John Jones was never actually born.

2) John Jones never atended any form of academia prior to the police acadamy.

3) John Jones was never given a social security number.

4) John Jones has never been to a doctor, or had a dental apointment.


J'onn would need documented proof of all of these to pass as a human long enough to become a detective. Thus, he must have forged documents that gave the illusion of John Jones having actually existed.



He put a mental whammy on them. :)



Fine.



Again, not the same. The League's scope (not the individual members, but the League as a whole) is global. As a group, they favor no country over another. The U.S. government, on the other hand, favors one country over all others all the time. The U.S.

If they care about their homes first, they must care about their country first as well. You can't have it both ways.

*raises hand*

OOH! OOH! I have a question! What the **** does that have to do with what I just said?

Everything.


I'm under 18, have no job, and no means of transportation. I would have no way of leaving this country. Nor would I ever want to. I love the U.S. And I am plenty patriotic. I'm just not blinded by patriotism. I recognize when the government is wrong and when it does bad things. A true patriot doesn't support the government with everything they do. A true patriot questions the government as to make the country better.


So talk to me when you get outta mommy's house, get a frikkin' job, own something other than your skate board and pay taxes. Until then you have nothing to say that makes sense.



Yes contest. In terms of percentage, other countries do more for international aid than we do. Alot of our money goes to the military, and other government programs. A rather small percent goes to international aid.

Taxes!!! Private sector!!! Nuff said...... You'll understand when you grow up. :)

[The Question]

He put a mental whammy on them. :)

So, that means his citizenship is completely illegal and fake. Which is what I've been saying the whole time.

If they care about their homes first, they must care about their country first as well. You can't have it both ways.

Actually, you can. The League, as a group, ahve never put the U.S. above any other country. The U.S. government always puts the U.S. above every other country.

Everything.

Yeah. That's specific.

So talk to me when you get outta mommy's house, get a frikkin' job, own something other than your skate board and pay taxes. Until then you have nothing to say that makes sense.

I don't have a skateboard. And how come suddenly nothing I say makes sense? That's bull****. Just because I don't pay taxes, I can't have an opinion that means anything?

Taxes!!! Private sector!!! Nuff said...... You'll understand when you grow up. :)

You keep saying the same stuff over and over again, and none of it disproves the fact that the U.S., in terms pf percentage, gives alot less to international aid than other countries.

[Green Lantern]

Wow. That was thorough. And even so, I still think the "of America" bit just doesn't fit. They've had non American members in the past, and the only reason that the Leagu has so many American members is because America has the largest metahuman population (seeing as how it has the second largest population, next to China).How does that make the team any less American though? In America we have several legal aliens who aren't citizens, does that make the companies they work for any less American companies? No, not in the least. Let me do a total tally for you all: 79 members have been in the JLA (80 if you count Adam Strange, 81 if you count Snapper Carr) 48 have been Americans (49 with Adam, 50 with Snapper) and 31 of them have been of other nationalities. Thats a pretty over whelming majority of them.

:eek: :eek: DANG!! Thank You Mr. Spock

You're quite welcome.




Again, not the same. The League's scope (not the individual members, but the League as a whole) is global. As a group, they favor no country over another. The U.S. government, on the other hand, favors one country over all others all the time. The U.S.
I'm going to call complete BS here. Are you telling me that if say, Baghdad and Keystone were threatened similarily that Flash would save Baghdad first? NO CHANCE IN HELL. Same goes for Superman with Metropolis and Smallville. Batman for Gotham. Hal's a great example, HE RECONSTRUCTED TIME TO GET HIS CITY BACK! They would all save their homes before any others. BS that they don't favor their home country, thats what any good citizen of ANY country would do.

[celldog]

How does that make the team any less American though? In America we have several legal aliens who aren't citizens, does that make the companies they work for any less American companies? No, not in the least. Let me do a total tally for you all: 79 members have been in the JLA (80 if you count Adam Strange, 81 if you count Snapper Carr) 48 have been Americans (49 with Adam, 50 with Snapper) and 31 of them have been of other nationalities. Thats a pretty over whelming majority of them.



You're quite welcome.

I'm going to call complete BS here. Are you telling me that if say, Baghdad and Keystone were threatened similarily that Flash would save Baghdad first? NO CHANCE IN HELL. Same goes for Superman with Metropolis and Smallville. Batman for Gotham. Hal's a great example, HE RECONSTRUCTED TIME TO GET HIS CITY BACK! They would all save their homes before any others. BS that they don't favor their home country, thats what any good citizen of ANY country would do.




Niiiice!!! :up: The defense rests. :) :supes:

[The Question]

How does that make the team any less American though? In America we have several legal aliens who aren't citizens, does that make the companies they work for any less American companies? No, not in the least. Let me do a total tally for you all: 79 members have been in the JLA (80 if you count Adam Strange, 81 if you count Snapper Carr) 48 have been Americans (49 with Adam, 50 with Snapper) and 31 of them have been of other nationalities. Thats a pretty over whelming majority of them.

That's because the U.S., in the DCU, has one of the largest superhuman opoulations. And 49 over 31 is not a mind numbingly overwheling majority. The "of America" part simply does not work. The League is not sponsored by the U.S. government exclusively, it has had more than a few non American members, and it's scope is completely global, and in no way favoring the U.S. The "of America" is simply a remnant of overzelous cold war patriotism that does not fit with how the League has been for the past 20 years.

I'm going to call complete BS here. Are you telling me that if say, Baghdad and Keystone were threatened similarily that Flash would save Baghdad first? NO CHANCE IN HELL. Same goes for Superman with Metropolis and Smallville. Batman for Gotham. Hal's a great example, HE RECONSTRUCTED TIME TO GET HIS CITY BACK! They would all save their homes before any others. BS that they don't favor their home country, thats what any good citizen of ANY country would do.


Individually, they favor their homes. But I'm not talking individually. As a group, the League has never favored one nation over any other. Were their two crisises on the League's level happening at the same time, one in Keystone and one in Baghdad, they would probably split into two groups and call in a few reserves to help.

[yenaled]

I think there is no arguement about when the League first started the "of America" bit worked and made sense.

Now it's just an homage to the JSA and early incarnations of the JLA. It's not there anymore meaning anything, it just pays respect to what came before it.

I don't have any problem with it being there, I'm not American and it certainly isn't something to feel patriotic about - I just like the history of the name. But it doesn't mean anything; it's redundant.

Especially in the new OYL DCU Earth, where it looks like other countries are not going to be allowing American heroes to enter their borders, maybe once more they are for America.

[The Question]

I think there is no arguement about when the League first started the "of America" bit worked and made sense.

Now it's just an homage to the JSA and early incarnations of the JLA. It's not there anymore meaning anything, it just pays respect to what came before it.

I don't have any problem with it being there, I'm not American and it certainly isn't something to feel patriotic about - I just like the history of the name. But it doesn't mean anything; it's redundant.

Fair point. I guess I don't mind it if it's simply to pay respect to the past.

Especially in the new OYL DCU Earth, where it looks like other countries are not going to be allowing American heroes to enter their borders, maybe once more they are for America.

Oh yeah. I heard something about that. I guess they could become more associated with the U.S. and it's government because of that.

[celldog]

Fair point. I guess I don't mind it if it's simply to pay respect to the past.

Yeah...anything BUT paying respect to the country of their birth! yep ..you're a real patriot.

Oh yeah. I heard something about that. I guess they could become more associated with the U.S. and it's government because of that.





:thing:

[celldog]

So....should the JSA drop "America" from it's name?? They fight all over world too!

[Darthphere]

I still stand behind that Superman is here illegally. Anything that had to do with his adoption had to be illegal, therefore hes no differetn from an illegal immigrant stealing a social security number. Is it his fault? No. It still stands. Even though im sure by now hes been granted some type of World citizenship type thing.

[Green Lantern]

That's because the U.S., in the DCU, has one of the largest superhuman opoulations. And 49 over 31 is not a mind numbingly overwheling majority. The "of America" part simply does not work. The League is not sponsored by the U.S. government exclusively, it has had more than a few non American members, and it's scope is completely global, and in no way favoring the U.S. The "of America" is simply a remnant of overzelous cold war patriotism that does not fit with how the League has been for the past 20 years. If a 55-45 majority in the Senate can pretty much be a straight vote, and will almost always result in the majority winning than I'd say 49-31 is even more overwhelming. It may not be mind numbing, but in political terms a twenty person majority is pretty substantial.




Individually, they favor their homes. But I'm not talking individually. As a group, the League has never favored one nation over any other. Were their two crisises on the League's level happening at the same time, one in Keystone and one in Baghdad, they would probably split into two groups and call in a few reserves to help.Okay, lets talk team. Say Imperiex was threatening China, and Darkseid was threatening America. The League could not even take both, which one would be the priority for the majority of the League? America. Because it's their home. To say that they wouldn't defend America first is nonsense, at least for the 50 members that call the U.S. home.

[The Question]

Yeah...anything BUT paying respect to the country of their birth! yep ..you're a real patriot.

It has nothing to do with paying respect to the country of their birth. It has to do with paying respect to their predicesors, the JSA.

So....should the JSA drop "America" from it's name?? They fight all over world too!

No, they were fighting solely on the behalf of the U.S. in WWII.

If a 55-45 majority in the Senate can pretty much be a straight vote, and will almost always result in the majority winning than I'd say 49-31 is even more overwhelming. It may not be mind numbing, but in political terms a twenty person majority is pretty substantial.



And since when were we talking in political terms?



Okay, lets talk team. Say Imperiex was threatening China, and Darkseid was threatening America. The League could not even take both, which one would be the priority for the majority of the League? America. Because it's their home. To say that they wouldn't defend America first is nonsense, at least for the 50 members that call the U.S. home.



Wow. That's not what they do at all. More likely than not, they'd call in all the reserves and split up into two teams. The larger for Imperiex, since I'm pretty sure he's more powerful than Darkseid.

[TheCorpulent1]

Okay, lets talk team. Say Imperiex was threatening China, and Darkseid was threatening America. The League could not even take both, which one would be the priority for the majority of the League? America. Because it's their home. To say that they wouldn't defend America first is nonsense, at least for the 50 members that call the U.S. home.
Actually, I think the League would choose China in that case. Imperiex is a much bigger threat than Darkseid.

[Green Lantern]

It has nothing to do with paying respect to the country of their birth. It has to do with paying respect to their predicesors, the JSA.



No, they were fighting solely on the behalf of the U.S. in WWII. They aren't anymore. Thats your argument against the JLA is that its no longer an American institution and therefore shouldn't be the JLA. The JSA has also had non-American members (notably Black Adam) and is no longer just fighting as an American institution, therefore should also not be the JSA but only the JS, by your own logic.


And since when were we talking in political terms? Since the beginning of the arguments. Talking about the semantics of whether a team should be named with a country is always going to result in political diatribes because the arguments will be politically based.







Wow. That's not what they do at all. More likely than not, they'd call in all the reserves and split up into two teams. The larger for Imperiex, since I'm pretty sure he's more powerful than Darkseid.Heroes or not, they still would defend their loved ones first. They aren't purely selfless, although we'd like them to be. I guess Imperiex and Darkseid were a bad example to use because they weren't equal threats. Lets take hypothetical situation where the League could only save one country. Are you telling me that as a team the majority of them would say, "Hey lets split up and lose everybody we love AND everyone else because thats what we should do." or would they save their loved ones first and make sure that that was the case? The majority of the heroes still have human flaws, and that little bit of selfishness is one of them.

[The Question]

They aren't anymore. Thats your argument against the JLA is that its no longer an American institution and therefore shouldn't be the JLA. The JSA has also had non-American members (notably Black Adam) and is no longer just fighting as an American institution, therefore should also not be the JSA but only the JS, by your own logic.

The thing is, in the comics continuity, the League was never an American institution. The fact that they had the "of America" sprang from the cold war mentality at the time, but they never fought on behalf of the U.S. government, and many of their missions took place outside of the U.S.

Since the beginning of the arguments. Talking about the semantics of whether a team should be named with a country is always going to result in political diatribes because the arguments will be politically based.

But polotics have nothing to do with this. The League is not congress, nor is it's internal workings anuything like congress.


Heroes or not, they still would defend their loved ones first. They aren't purely selfless, although we'd like them to be. I guess Imperiex and Darkseid were a bad example to use because they weren't equal threats. Lets take hypothetical situation where the League could only save one country. Are you telling me that as a team the majority of them would say, "Hey lets split up and lose everybody we love AND everyone else because thats what we should do." or would they save their loved ones first and make sure that that was the case? The majority of the heroes still have human flaws, and that little bit of selfishness is one of them.

But not all of the League have loved ones in the states. And how would it be that they could only save one country? If there were two different crisises on different sides of the world, they would just call in the reserves and split into two teams.

[TheCorpulent1]

In a situation like that, I think it'd come down to individual heroes' choices. The American Leaguers would likely choose to stay in America and save that country, but I'm fairly sure Rocket Red would head right back to Russia to help out there and Fire would head back to Brazil and Aquaman would damn sure head back to Atlantis or Sub Diego (which technically isn't part of America anymore), etc. If the whole world is coming to an end with a threat in literally every country, I doubt anyone'd be able to keep the League together. People would go to help whatever they think deserves their help the most.

[The Question]

And, if it were two seperate crisises in the U.S. and China, they'd most likely send a different group to each threat.

[Green Lantern]

The thing is, in the comics continuity, the League was never an American institution. The fact that they had the "of America" sprang from the cold war mentality at the time, but they never fought on behalf of the U.S. government, and many of their missions took place outside of the U.S.There your argument falls apart again. The JSA was also never an American institution. It was American heroes fighting for America's honor yes, but not government sponsored. In fact they were shut down BY the government in the 50s.



But polotics have nothing to do with this. The League is not congress, nor is it's internal workings anuything like congress. Any time a decision regarding the League and its inner workings has to be made, what is done? It's put to a vote. Who wins a vote? The majority. Every time. (Example: the mind wipe) How is voting on how to do things not political? How is it not like Congress? If the majority (which we've already determined to be American in regards) decides that they should be the Justice League of America, then voila, its the JLA. If someone else has a problem with it, they don't need to be a member of the JLA. They can form the JLC or the JLUK, or whatever they want and see how many people join it.

[The Question]

There your argument falls apart again. The JSA was also never an American institution. It was American heroes fighting for America's honor yes, but not government sponsored. In fact they were shut down BY the government in the 50s.

Which makes it much more of an American institution than the League. The League was some American heroes and some non American heroes fighting on behalf of the entire world. Also, the JSA was sponsored by the government. They worked very closely with the defense department, and often took direct orders from the president.

Any time a decision regarding the League and its inner workings has to be made, what is done? It's put to a vote. Who wins a vote? The majority. Every time. (Example: the mind wipe) How is voting on how to do things not political? How is it not like Congress? If the majority (which we've already determined to be American in regards) decides that they should be the Justice League of America, then voila, its the JLA. If someone else has a problem with it, they don't need to be a member of the JLA. They can form the JLC or the JLUK, or whatever they want and see how many people join it.

Fine. Although, I'm fairly certain most of the descisions are based on what whoever the chairman at the time says.

[Green Lantern]

Which makes it much more of an American institution than the League. The League was some American heroes and some non American heroes fighting on behalf of the entire world. Also, the JSA was sponsored by the government. They worked very closely with the defense department, and often took direct orders from the president.



Fine. Although, I'm fairly certain most of the descisions are based on what whoever the chairman at the time says.And how do they get a chairman? By a MAJORITY vote :eek:

[The Question]

.....okay.

[celldog]

"sigh" :(

[BrianWilly]

Heroes or not, they still would defend their loved ones first. They aren't purely selfless, although we'd like them to be. I guess Imperiex and Darkseid were a bad example to use because they weren't equal threats. Lets take hypothetical situation where the League could only save one country. Are you telling me that as a team the majority of them would say, "Hey lets split up and lose everybody we love AND everyone else because thats what we should do." or would they save their loved ones first and make sure that that was the case? The majority of the heroes still have human flaws, and that little bit of selfishness is one of them.Something like that has nothing to do with nationality, though:confused:.

By that exact same line of reasoning, if Themyscira or Atlantis was being attacked then Wonder Woman or Aquaman would want to save those countries first. All it suggests is personal connection, it has nothing to do at all with whether or not the group that they're in is more affiliated with one country or another. Taking that logic even further, what if New York and Chicago were attacked at the same time? None of the League members have family in New York, so they might went to take on Metropolis first...but that doesn't mean that they're all of a sudden the Justice League of New York.

Individual members can do whatever they want when they're not on league duty but officially, attacks in America do not take priority for the Justice League. They were stationed on a satellite and then on the moon, not in any particular country, for a very specific reason.

Not to mention, members of the League are called upon to decide between responsibility to their loved ones and their responsibility to the world all the time. Whenever Batman takes time out of his busy schedule to play detective on the moon, that's one more victim in Gotham city that might not receive his help. Every single moment that Aquaman plays hero with the landlubbers, he forsakes his duty to his own home, all for the greater good.

[celldog]

Something like that has nothing to do with nationality, though:confused:.

By that exact same line of reasoning, if Themyscira or Atlantis was being attacked then Wonder Woman or Aquaman would want to save those countries first. All it suggests is personal connection, it has nothing to do at all with whether or not the group that they're in is more affiliated with one country or another. Taking that logic even further, what if New York and Chicago were attacked at the same time? None of the League members have family in New York, so they might went to take on Metropolis first...but that doesn't mean that they're all of a sudden the Justice League of New York.


How can you not be affliated with the country that your home city is in??




Individual members can do whatever they want when they're not on league duty but officially, attacks in America do not take priority for the Justice League. They were stationed on a satellite and then on the moon, not in any particular country, for a very specific reason.


That's only because they want a better way to get to any trouble spot. You better believe that Superman is heading to Kansas or Metropolis if given a choice.


Not to mention, members of the League are called upon to decide between responsibility to their loved ones and their responsibility to the world all the time. Whenever Batman takes time out of his busy schedule to play detective on the moon, that's one more victim in Gotham city that might not receive his help. Every single moment that Aquaman plays hero with the landlubbers, he forsakes his duty to his own home, all for the greater good.


:batman:

[celldog]

Not to mention, members of the League are called upon to decide between responsibility to their loved ones and their responsibility to the world all the time. Whenever Batman takes time out of his busy schedule to play detective on the moon, that's one more victim in Gotham city that might not receive his help. Every single moment that Aquaman plays hero with the landlubbers, he forsakes his duty to his own home, all for the greater good.



I'm sure a member of the Bat team is watching out for Gotham while Bats is on the moon.

[Harlekin]

How can you not be affliated with the country that your home city is in??
As an individual, you can. Not as a team.

[celldog]

As an individual, you can. Not as a team.


How?? You still haven't answered that? Heck....Batman has at times, been to busy in Gotham to even answer a JLA call. Gotham was more important to him.

You mean to tell me that Superman would let Lois die if Metropolis was under attack????

[UK_Stu]

I don't have a strong stance on this either way to be honest and I would be happy to see 'of America' on the end for the sake of tradition (and brand).

But by adding a country to your name you do immediately set a certain perception about your team.

Its fair to say the JLA doesn't simply focus on the US and did have their base on the moon, and all their members aren't all Americans - but if you weren't aware of this, the name would make you think they were only Americans, working for and in the US.

[BrianWilly]

How?? You still haven't answered that? Heck....Batman has at times, been to busy in Gotham to even answer a JLA call. Gotham was more important to him.

You mean to tell me that Superman would let Lois die if Metropolis was under attack????Batman and Superman are not representative of the entire Justice League. What if Wonder Woman wants to save people in Themyscira? What if Aquaman wants to save people in Atlantis? Why wouldn't you then call it the Justice League of Themyscira or the Justice League of Atlantis??

Furthermore, saying that the JLA is affiliated with America because Superman is partial to Lois makes no sense at all. Lois is one person. Metropolis is one city. They do not represent America, just as Superman does not represent the entire Justice League. What the heck does Superman not wanting Lois to die have anything to do with his team's affiliation to anything? To say that Superman's connection to Lois and Metropolis somehow equates with the JLA being connected to America is complete nonsense.

Same goes for Batman. Gotham is merely one city in America. In fact, Batman values Gotham more than any other city in America. If anything, that makes him more of a Gothamite than it makes him an American. Either way, it has no connection to the national affiliations of the team that he's in.

Hell, it could be argued that people like Batman and Aquaman who have strong ties to their home cities are actually less representative of the League than those who don't have such ties. After all, they're always the ones saying that their responsibilities at home matters more to them than the League. That makes them less associated with the JLA, not more. Therefore, Batman and Superman's ideals of favoring one city over all others is not a good representation of the true ideals of the League. Your ideals of favoring one country over all others is not a good representation of the true ideals of the League.

And on the other side of the spectrum, who's been the one most stalwart Justice League member through all its incarnations? Martian Manhunter, the guy who doesn't have any existing national connections. Because he's not particularly biased towards any particular nations, he's the one who personifies the ideals of the Justice League far more than any other member does.

Steel: "I made it quite clear when I started: my family comes first.
Zauriel: "Steel. The JLA is sworn to protect all humanity, not just those closest to us."
-JLA: One Million.

[yenaled]

It's the same as Green Lantern, Hal Jorden. When he is wearing the ring, as he has actually said, he has no preferences to nations and no ties to nations. He serves the corps and thus protects the entire Earth and the sector rather than protecting America above anything else.

[The Leaguer]

It's the same as Green Lantern, Hal Jorden. When he is wearing the ring, as he has actually said, he has no preferences to nations and no ties to nations. He serves the corps and thus protects the entire Earth and the sector rather than protecting America above anything else.
That seems kind of conflicting as far as his character goes, to me. I mean, he's in the Air Force. Ever since he was a kid, his non-GL life was almost entirely based around loyalty and service to America. It's seems hard to believe that he could drop such long-standing loyalty simply by changing uniforms.

And even though he has sworn loyalty to another military-esque force, the Green Lantern Corps, he pledged allegience to America long before then and it would make sense to me that Hal would feel a very strong pull towards favoring America's safety not just out of personal connections, but sworn loyalty.

[yenaled]

I suppose it because he is saying he is a true soldier, and maybe when he is a civilian or in the Air Force uniform he does have a loyalty to America but when he is in the Lantern Corps uniform he drops that alligence - because that is his job (even if he has personal feeling under that, he will put them aside). Which is what makes him a good Lantern and soldier.

But I suppose, he has never really shown too much alligence to the air force, he has walked out at least twice and hit his superiors multiple times.

Making sense of Hal's character (or lack of) is rather difficult.

[GoldenAgeHero]

can we focus back on the damn book please, jeez! who the **** cares its title america.

[Anubis]

You do realize that the whole point of the thread IS in fact the "America" thing.......right?

[GNR]

Can't wait for the relaunch.

[celldog]

Batman and Superman are not representative of the entire Justice League. What if Wonder Woman wants to save people in Themyscira? What if Aquaman wants to save people in Atlantis? Why wouldn't you then call it the Justice League of Themyscira or the Justice League of Atlantis??

They are free to go and take care of their countrties! No Problem....bye bye. But those are just two members.


Furthermore, saying that the JLA is affiliated with America because Superman is partial to Lois makes no sense at all. Lois is one person. Metropolis is one city. They do not represent America, just as Superman does not represent the entire Justice League. What the heck does Superman not wanting Lois to die have anything to do with his team's affiliation to anything? To say that Superman's connection to Lois and Metropolis somehow equates with the JLA being connected to America is complete nonsense.

Look dude, I only used those two guys as quick examples to my point...not as the focus of this debate. I could have used Barry Allen, Ollie Queen, Ray Palmer, Hal Jordan, Dinah Lance........they are all Americans. But they all have loved ones in their citites. These cities are in America! You're trying to separate the two. But that's not possible.



Same goes for Batman. Gotham is merely one city in America. In fact, Batman values Gotham more than any other city in America. If anything, that makes him more of a Gothamite than it makes him an American. Either way, it has no connection to the national affiliations of the team that he's in.

That's ridiculous! Bruce is a corporate mogul!! A taxpayin', healthcare for his employees American! He can't walk and chew gum or something?? Don't go to that extreme to make your point. :batman:



Hell, it could be argued that people like Batman and Aquaman who have strong ties to their home cities are actually less representative of the League than those who don't have such ties. After all, they're always the ones saying that their responsibilities at home matters more to them than the League. That makes them less associated with the JLA, not more. Therefore, Batman and Superman's ideals of favoring one city over all others is not a good representation of the true ideals of the League. Your ideals of favoring one country over all others is not a good representation of the true ideals of the League.

They will protect their country first "because of their love for their home cities!! If the country is destroyed, so goes the their home towns!!




And on the other side of the spectrum, who's been the one most stalwart Justice League member through all its incarnations? Martian Manhunter, the guy who doesn't have any existing national connections. Because he's not particularly biased towards any particular nations, he's the one who personifies the ideals of the Justice League far more than any other member does.

One guy ain't a majority.



Steel: "I made it quite clear when I started: my family comes first.
Zauriel: "Steel. The JLA is sworn to protect all humanity, not just those closest to us."
-JLA: One Million.


But the question is "What country would they save first"???? It's gotta be home......the big USA. Steel said what I've been tellin' you all along. These heroes will go "first" to where there hearts are invested.

Where the heck is Zauriel now anyway??? :down

[celldog]

It's the same as Green Lantern, Hal Jorden. When he is wearing the ring, as he has actually said, he has no preferences to nations and no ties to nations. He serves the corps and thus protects the entire Earth and the sector rather than protecting America above anything else.



This the same Hal Jordan that went Bonkers when Mongul destroyed Coast City?? Yep....I can see how he has no preference. :) Couldn't care less.

Wait...... didn't he try to recreate the city????

[BrianWilly]

Coast City is not America.

Have you actually read anything that people have been saying? You keep repeating the same exact points that have been refuted already many times over.

The members of the League can be affiliated to whatever country they want to be affiliated with. THE LEAGUE ITSELF IS NOT AFFILIATED LIKE THAT. The Justice League, by its very nature, is a job that often takes them far away from their homes to protect people they wouldn't normally be protecting. By signing up to the League and taking on the responsibility to protect the world, they are basically giving the rest of the world the time and effort and devotion that they would usually be giving to their own cities and their own countires. If they're not doing that or have biases that prevent them from doing that, then they're not doing their duties as members of the Justice League. That's the nature of the Justice League, and has been a long-running theme that's shown up time and time again throughout the series.

One guy ain't a majority.Uh, no s**t. The point is that this one guy more represents the ideals of the Justice League than most of the other members for the very reason that he doesn't have biases and preferences for any nation or any city that would hinder his devotion to the rest of the world.

Batman said it himself: To him, "Gotham is more important than the League." How can you say that his mindset is representative of what the Justice League should be, when he himself admits that his attitude of favoritism is not an attitude that is appropriate a member of the Justice League?

[celldog]

Coast City is not America.

Have you actually read anything that people have been saying? You keep repeating the same exact points that have been refuted already many times over.



Nothing's been "REFUTED"! Nothing is ever "refuted on these boards! It just goes from one opinion to another! I've read quite a few that "agree" with my view, as well as those that agree with you. Yours just makes no since to me. All of a sudden, just because these "individuals" come together, they suddenly have some magical off switch and can ignore their own country and home cities???


The members of the League can be affiliated to whatever country they want to be affiliated with. THE LEAGUE ITSELF IS NOT AFFILIATED LIKE THAT. The Justice League, by its very nature, is a job that often takes them far away from their homes to protect people they wouldn't normally be protecting.

No one is arguing that point. We and others are saying that if two places are in trouble and one is America, The USA will get first dibs. If they can spare a member to split off and go take of China or New Genesis, they will. If the situation is too dire, home will get all of the help.

By signing up to the League and taking on the responsibility to protect the world, they are basically giving the rest of the world the time and effort and devotion that they would usually be giving to their own cities and their own countires. If they're not doing that or have biases that prevent them from doing that, then they're not doing their duties as members of the Justice League. That's the nature of the Justice League, and has been a long-running theme that's shown up time and time again throughout the series.

Uh, no s**t. The point is that this one guy more represents the ideals of the Justice League than most of the other members for the very reason that he doesn't have biases and preferences for any nation or any city that would hinder his devotion to the rest of the world.

Batman said it himself: To him, "Gotham is more important than the League." How can you say that his mindset is representative of what the Justice League should be, when he himself admits that his attitude of favoritism is not an attitude that is appropriate a member of the Justice League?

:batman: He's got issues! But he always comes thru. Big deal.

[BrianWilly]

All of a sudden, just because these "individuals" come together, they suddenly have some magical off switch and can ignore their own country and home cities???
YES.

That is exactly what they are supposed to do. That is the job that they signed up for when they signed up for the League. If they are not doing that, then they are not doing their job as a member of the Justice League. I don't know how to make that any simpler.

No one is arguing that point. We and others are saying that if two places are in trouble and one is America, The USA will get first dibs. If they can spare a member to split off and go take of China or New Genesis, they will. If the situation is too dire, home will get all of the help.Please show me an instance from the comics where both America and some other country were attacked by threats of equal magnitude and the League collectively -- and not just individual members -- agreed that they had to go help America first, before they help that other country.

[The Question]

No one is arguing that point. We and others are saying that if two places are in trouble and one is America, The USA will get first dibs. If they can spare a member to split off and go take of China or New Genesis, they will. If the situation is too dire, home will get all of the help.

Not true. If there are major crisises in two different parts of the world, the League would call in the reserves and split into two teams. That's how they've always done it in the past.

[celldog]

YES.


No they don't!!

That is exactly what they are supposed to do. That is the job that they signed up for when they signed up for the League. If they are not doing that, then they are not doing their job as a member of the Justice League. I don't know how to make that any simpler.


But they are still human! What's suppose to happen is that they prioritze when they need to.



Please show me an instance from the comics where both America and some other country were attacked by threats of equal magnitude and the League collectively -- and not just individual members -- agreed that they had to go help America first, before they help that other country.

And show me where they left America to burn while they when to China. :)

[The Question]

They wouldn't do that either. They would call in the reserves and the aid of the local military if need be, and split into two groups. A prime example of this was a JLA anual where the Apalexian aliens came back, and started atacking the Earth in three different places at a time. The League split into three groups to deal with it.

[BrianWilly]

But they are still human! What's suppose to happen is that they prioritze when they need to.Either start showing some evidence of this actually happening or stop making these claims.

And show me where they left America to burn while they when to China. :) But I'm not saying that they would leave America to burn, I'm saying that they would be obligated to help both out equally.

[BrianWilly]

They wouldn't do that either. They would call in the reserves and the aid of the local military if need be, and split into two groups. A prime example of this was a JLA anual where the Apalexian aliens came back, and started atacking the Earth in three different places at a time. The League split into three groups to deal with it.Yes, that is exactly what would happen. In fact, that is exactly what has happened in almost every major disaster that has ever been shown; they either call in other Justice League members, or they can call in other teams like the JSA or the Titans.

[yenaled]

Or heroes from their own countries help out ... they are there (honest).

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, they're supposed to get more of a spotlight soon, too.

[celldog]

Either start showing some evidence of this actually happening or stop making these claims.

But I'm not saying that they would leave America to burn, I'm saying that they would be obligated to help both out equally.



Look....This type of "Doomsday" scenario has never been written this way. Writer always pull the reserves card. We are debating hypotheticals from a "common sense" stand point. If there are no reserves, and if the situation calls for their "full strength" and if they have to choose between anothe country or their home country, it's a no-brainer!!

I mean do you seriously thin clark could live with himself if he didn't choose his loved ones first?? Barry not choosing to save Iris???

[The Question]

But that has nothing to do with patriotism. If Lois lived in London, then in that scenario, Clark would fly right to jolly ol' england. Most likely, the League would coordinate things to do the most good they could by seinding the right people to the right places. Some would go for it. Some wouldn't. But that has nothing to do with how devoted to their country they are, and everything to do with how devoted to their families they are.

[BrianWilly]

Exactly. When Lois got shot in Umec, he flew there to help her. Does that mean he loves Umec more than other countries??

Lois is not America. When he flies to Lois to help her, he's flying to Lois to help her, not America.

I ask you the same question I asked you a page ago and you never answered: What if both Chicago and Metropolis was burning, and Superman goes to Metropolis instead of Chicago? What does that have anything to do with his nationality or patriotism?

[The Leaguer]

Hometown favoritism?

[TheCorpulent1]

So... if Perry and Jimmy were burning, and Supes went to save Jimmy, it'd be homeboy favoritism? :confused:

[BrianWilly]

Nah, Superman would be more than happy to kill Jimmy over and over again.

And has! (www.superdickery.com)

Hell, according to those he wouldn't be in such a hurry to save Lois, either.

[The Question]

Well, everyone knows that Superman is like Angel from the Buffyverse. He seems like a nice, honorable guy most of the time, but deep down he's a sadistic mass murderer with a somewhat fake sounding Irish accent.

[TheCorpulent1]

Somewhat? It was the only bad part of those flashback sequences. :o

[The Question]

Yeah, you've got a point. Still, everyone knows that all nice guys who deep down are sadistic mass murderers and are super powered have fake Irish accents.

[TheCorpulent1]

Unless they're already Irish. Then they have fake Eskimo accents. Don't ask me why; I don't make the rules. :o

[The Question]

Angel was Irish. He was just a crappy Irishman.