Wouldn't It Be Great If...

[Dan Ketch]

The last 10 years of Spidey continuity was actually a clone and Peter actually did move to Oregon and Marvel was gonna pull the big reveal later this year saying to celebrate the 10th Anniversary of the Clone Saga Peter was gonna return to the Spidey outfit and do it right with no stingers, organic webshooters, Iron Spidey costume, no return of Uncle Ben, no totemistic spider gods, no Goblin Twins and Gwen with Norman Osbourn was somehow a nightmare created by the clone's degenerative process and Spidey wouldnt be revealing his secret identity during Civil War the clone would be revealing that he was actually Ben Reilly...hmmm, that would be great!! A guy can dream though right...:spidey:

[WOLVERINE25TH]

No 'cause then that demeans Ben, who will always be more awesome than Peter...whether people choose to admit it or not.

[Man-Thing]

I say they should just breakout with the character of nightmare to fix this mess. Either that or they could just let Banner destroy the entire planet after Hulk Planet, inwhich they could later ultimize the entire universe.:up:

[Cyclops]

You know what? No. No more copouts. No more dodging the bullet.

The only way to fix the mess that is Spider-Man currently is to just face facts, admit that they've taken too many liberties with him, and figure out a reasonable way to fix it that wouldn't bring about even more convolution and messy clone stuff.

[MaxCarnage]

The whole 616 universe should be evaporated in a cosmic burst of gamma radiation.

[Dangerous]

Don think I'd like that one..

[Mara Jane]

Did they clone MJ, too?

[shinlyle]

No 'cause then that demeans Ben, who will always be more awesome than Peter...whether people choose to admit it or not.


*tries to muffle laughter*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[shinlyle]

You know what? No. No more copouts. No more dodging the bullet.

The only way to fix the mess that is Spider-Man currently is to just face facts, admit that they've taken too many liberties with him, and figure out a reasonable way to fix it that wouldn't bring about even more convolution and messy clone stuff.

Amen!

I think, seeing as how they ducked continuity time and again to end up where they are, they should have to use continuity and work within it to bail their asses out of this mess.

[dan1]

No 'cause then that demeans Ben, who will always be more awesome than Peter...whether people choose to admit it or not.

ah ah ah...Ben would have to have those stupid (always there)stingers and totemistic origin too. Lest we not forget :)

[wolvie2020]

You know what? No. No more copouts. No more dodging the bullet.

The only way to fix the mess that is Spider-Man currently is to just face facts, admit that they've taken too many liberties with him, and figure out a reasonable way to fix it that wouldn't bring about even more convolution and messy clone stuff.

Damn straight bruv. It'd be great if more people had that attitude

This way, a new writer, (hint hint, Loeb, hint,) couold get a clean start, and just tell great Spider-Man stories without all this extra crap

I really liked the way in one quick, (and actually really fun to read,) Hulk arc by PAD, he set it up so that many of the weirder, (not so good,) parts pf Hulk continuity in the last few years, now could be completely erased!

And best of all, he didn't leave too many finalised points, and it didn't take away from the stories just gone by. He just set it up as a clean slate, and bits of bad continuity could be taken out, yet, the Hulks actual actions, and passion in those given situations still remain

Something like that needs to happen with Spidey, seriously

[SpideyInATree]

Would It Be Great If....

Ben Reilly really did replace Peter Parker. And Peter Parker really were the clone. And Aunt May would have stayed dead. ASM # 400 wouldn't have been made a mockery of. Peter Parker, the clone, would have moved to Oregon with his hot supermodel, but nagging wife with their beautiful baby girl, May. Peter would make occassional appearances to help Ben with some of the past villains that he hasn't handled. Ben Reilly would make a life for himself, take back his life as Spider-Man, and he has his entire life in front of him.

All of those pesky retcons that have convulted the Spider-Man mythos would have never happened. Baby May would be alive and well. Peter and Mary Jane could finally be truly happy together without Spider-Man to interfere in their lives. The story of Spider-Man goes on with practically the same exact person with the same exact powers and, for the most part, the same memories...feelings...ideas...emotions...love for passed loved ones. Ben Reilly would always be fighting as Spider-Man for the same reason that Peter did...because with Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

There would have been no return of Norman Osborn. Therefore, no Sins Past.

Sounds to me like the Spidey books would have been better off with Ben Reilly. :o

[Dan Ketch]

Would It Be Great If....

Ben Reilly really did replace Peter Parker. And Peter Parker really were the clone. And Aunt May would have stayed dead. ASM # 400 wouldn't have been made a mockery of. Peter Parker, the clone, would have moved to Oregon with his hot supermodel, but nagging wife with their beautiful baby girl, May. Peter would make occassional appearances to help Ben with some of the past villains that he hasn't handled. Ben Reilly would make a life for himself, take back his life as Spider-Man, and he has his entire life in front of him.

All of those pesky retcons that have convulted the Spider-Man mythos would have never happened. Baby May would be alive and well. Peter and Mary Jane could finally be truly happy together without Spider-Man to interfere in their lives. The story of Spider-Man goes on with practically the same exact person with the same exact powers and, for the most part, the same memories...feelings...ideas...emotions...love for passed loved ones. Ben Reilly would always be fighting as Spider-Man for the same reason that Peter did...because with Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

There would have been no return of Norman Osborn. Therefore, no Sins Past.

Sounds to me like the Spidey books would have been better off with Ben Reilly. :o

That really wouldnt be that bad....

[SpideyInATree]

Well, that was Marvel's original plan. To replace Ben Reilly, the real Peter Parker, with Peter, the clone who has been posing as the real deal. Fans were outraged. Marvel changed it's plans. And we have what we have now. :o

[Galactus]

To replace Ben Reilly, the real Peter Parker, with Peter, the clone who has been posing as the real deal.

That made my head spinning... ;)

[Rez]

It's like Regis always said... the first impulse is the right one!

And the first one was to have Ben stay permanant.

Damn, how I miss Benji.

[Geko]

Hang on now...
What makes you think that even if the had let Ben remain as Spider-Man, (which just to ring in, I'm not a fan of... One of the things that has always made Spider-Man special is that it is as much about the Man behind the mask as it is about the Hero. Being Spider-Man isn't like being a Green Lantern, being Spider-Man is being Peter Parker. ... But I digress)
*Ahem.* Even if they had left Ben as Spider-Man, what makes you think the current creative team wouldn't have taken him to the exact same place they've taken Peter???
They could still bring back Norman
They could still defile the memory of Gwen
and they could still give Ben Spider-God, wannabe-Wolverine Stingers that inexplicably need to be managed by the Spider-Armor V2.1

[Citizen_Kaine]

Hang on now...
What makes you think that even if the had let Ben remain as Spider-Man, (which just to ring in, I'm not a fan of... One of the things that has always made Spider-Man special is that it is as much about the Man behind the mask as it is about the Hero. Being Spider-Man isn't like being a Green Lantern, being Spider-Man is being Peter Parker. ... But I digress)
*Ahem.* Even if they had left Ben as Spider-Man, what makes you think the current creative team wouldn't have taken him to the exact same place they've taken Peter???
They could still bring back Norman
They could still defile the memory of Gwen
and they could still give Ben Spider-God, wannabe-Wolverine Stingers that inexplicably need to be managed by the Spider-Armor V2.1

Ben had potential, lots of openings and different roads that could have been taken. Trust me, Marvel would have had a lot better idea's and possibilities with Ben that didn't involve Gwen, Spider Religon, and most of the bull**** we deal with today

[Geko]

If Ben had remained as the definitive "real" Spider-Man, then all that rich Spider-History would have been his. So how long before he tried to somehow re-establish those relationships?
Peter has as much potential as Ben did. The problem lies in the lack of creativity of the writers. And the biggest example of that lack of creativity is when they thought the only way to revitalize the series was to ditch the lead character!

[SpideyInATree]

If Ben had remained as the definitive "real" Spider-Man, then all that rich Spider-History would have been his. So how long before he tried to somehow re-establish those relationships?
Peter has as much potential as Ben did. The problem lies in the lack of creativity of the writers. And the biggest example of that lack of creativity is when they thought the only way to revitalize the series was to ditch the lead character!

But they didn't ditch the lead character. The guy who was doing the replacing is an exact replica. In fact, the guy who he was replacing was REALLY the exact replica and Ben was the real deal. Peter Parker IS Ben Reilly. Ben Reilly IS Peter Parker. They were clones and the same exact person when it all came down to it.

Basically, they were replacing Peter Parker with Peter Parker.

And no, you wouldn't have had the same storylines if Ben Reilly had stayed Spider-Man. Ben Reilly added a lot of new energy to the Spidey books and they could have done a lot of interesting things off of that. If you keep Ben Reilly, you are also keeping Kaine around as well. There goes a big rivalry right there.

They had a nice plan worked out when Ben was actually Spider-Man. Ben would begin slowly taking his life back. He was dating that Jessica woman who was really the daughter of the burglar who killed Uncle Ben. He worked at the Daily Grind. Plenty of new supporting cast. Mysterio got sweet upgrades. And then...Marvel changed their mind. :(

[ScarletSpider]

I love Ben Reilly (go figure), I was introduced to Spidey comics the very issue he returned believe it or not, but it was a ridiculous idea to ever try and make him the new Spider-Man, pushing Peter and the suporting cast aside so it'd be 'fresh'. How did they ever think the fan base, the people who love and identify with Peter would feel that all these years he was just an imposter.

Ben may have been a clone of Peter, they mayhave had the same view of being a hero and the whole responsobility thing, but they were also very different. They even cut and died his hair radically changing his appearence, so it wasn't as if they were replacing Peter Parker with Peter Parker. Ben Reilly is NOT Peter Parker, Peter Parker is NOT Ben Reilly.

Ben as the Scarlet Spider rocked, Kaine was an awesome villain who actually seemed a genuine scary threat, ASM#400 is arguably the greatest issue of Spider-Man ever... and I agree Mysterio became pretty cooler. But the convulted mess it became.. jesus.

In my opinion, Ben should of stayed the Scarlet Spider, but eventually would of been slain in a near identical way as he was in the books, just with no Norman returning for god's sake. I don't mind other people taking up the Goblin mantle, in a way it was like Norman was haunting Pete from beyond the grave, hell I wouldn't really of been bothered if Harry returned instead.

But even if Ben had really been the real Peter Parker, we'd still have the same mess we have now. Why would they not have gone the way of the spider-totem, Gwen and Norman boning and the bone claw poker crap way?

I stilll can't believe they brought back Aunt May, that's one thing I wish they would retcon... retcon a retcon, that's when you know things have really turned to crap.

I'm praying that some day soon they put telling good stories ahead of collosal events, I groan each time I hear "and their life will never be the same" and "which will send shockwaves through the entire Marvel Universe for years to come" now.

Astonishing has restored my faith in X-Men, hopefully they could get someone like Whedon on Spidey, or Whedon himself. I think he'd nail Spidey's sense of humour.

[Geko]

Thanks for the support ScarletSpider

Ben ISN'T Peter, and Peter ISN'T Ben. At best they were twin brothers. And yes they did try to ditch the lead character... unless of course you want to argue that they planned the second clone saga at the same time they created the first one. Of course not. And really you've made my point, the only way the writers could think of to freshen the series was to ditch everything and start with a clean slate.
I liked Ben as a character too, and would have loved to see him stay as Scarlet Spider. He could have moved to California and been the West Coast Spidey! However, instead of taking all these new characters and using them to enrichen the character, Marvel took nearly every Spidey comic I'd read, every cartoon I'd seen and every adventure I'd created with my Mego Spider-Man figures (and the SWAT figure I'd converted into a Peter Parker figure) and said HA! Not real!! His hair bleaching twin brother is the real deal. Start loving and identifying with him...NOW!:confused:

[Rez]

I totally understand that view.

I also feel it would have been best if they were both kept alive. My favourite times were when they worked as brothers, playing off one another- appearing in all the books together.

However, that wasn't the plan. The plan was to get rid of Peter and have Ben take back what was his.

A flawed plan? Maybe. There was obviously going to be some backlash.
But as a result of this backlash, they panicked. They threw out their whole plan, over what? Divisions in the offices? A lunch date between Jurgens and the Editor? (Should be noted that the "drop in readers" and "fan backlash" often sighted as causing Marvel to make the switch is bs; the decision to flip flop was made before Peter left- they just didn't have the time to throw out all the books already completed or underway)

Arguably, many of the problems we have today would have been avoided if they stuck to the original plan.
Look what SpideyinaTree said:
" They had a nice plan worked out when Ben was actually Spider-Man. Ben would begin slowly taking his life back. He was dating that Jessica woman who was really the daughter of the burglar who killed Uncle Ben. He worked at the Daily Grind. Plenty of new supporting cast. Mysterio got sweet upgrades. And then...Marvel changed their mind. "

That sounds pretty damn good to me. And you know that Peter and MJ wouldn't be gone forever. But when they appeared, it could have been something special. The scene stealers of the book. The Mentor. The Brother. The Legend.
And Jameson and the Bugle cast, they would have still turned up. Granted, half the interaction was due to PETER working at the Bugle. But the other half was how much hatred JJJ has for Spiderman. He IS a villian! They wouldn't ditch that aspect of the book just because Peter no longer worked there.
And look what WOULD have, ABSOLUTELY Been avoided. Revelations.
No return of the Green Goblin. Without the flip flop there is no need for a mastermind reveal because everything has already been resolved.
Don't get me wrong, I kind of like him as the grand mastermind. It worked then, ONCE. But without him back, we wouldn't have had Sins Past. Without him being the mastermind ONCE, we wouldn't have had to deal with every writer afterwards going "ahh MASTERMIND AGAIN!"
Most importantly, we wouldn't have had the Gathering of the 5, the reboot, and the horrid retcon of ASM 400 and May's death. All of those are almost directly because of the decision to cancel out and try and forget about the Clone Saga.

Now, does it mean we wouldn't have The Other? Or some other bad stories? Of course not. But, it DOES avoid some of the HUGE missteps mentioned above. It DOES open TONS of new doors with Ben's supporting cast. And it DOESN'T close all the doors with Peter "gone."

[Herr Logan]

I'm in favor of chalking all that bull***** up to Mysterio (the real one, that is, who wouldn't be dead even if 'Guardian Devil' had actually happened, because anyone who thinks a master illusionist can't fake his death in front of Daredevil is an idiot child) enhancing his shenanigans with the Cosmic Cube or something like that, creating a completely false ten years of Marvel History.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Maybe it'd be easier if it was revealed that someone had been guiding Wanda's ripples and bending reality for the past few years affecting many events and characters.This would end up causing an alternate reality to bleed into 616.


Or maybe that sounds too much like Crisis.:o

[Herr Logan]

Maybe it'd be easier if it was revealed that someone had been guiding Wanda's ripples and bending reality for the past few years affecting many events and characters.This would end up causing an alternate reality to bleed into 616.


Or maybe that sounds too much like Crisis.:o

Or maybe that sounds too much like validating Bendis' tremendous ego trip all over the Marvel Universe. That in itself is wrong.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Or maybe that sounds too much like validating Bendis' tremendous ego trip all over the Marvel Universe. That in itself is wrong.

:wolverine


True.But sometimes its better to undo something crappy by using that same crappy thing against itself,rather than introduce something new and slightly crappy but still contrived and convoluted.If that makes sense.:confused:

[Herr Logan]

True.But sometimes its better to undo something crappy by using that same crappy thing against itself,rather than introduce something new and slightly crappy but still contrived and convoluted.If that makes sense.:confused:

I will not support a retcon that validates Bendis' bull*****.

:wolverine

[TheWhiteSpider]

Would It Be Great If....

Ben Reilly really did replace Peter Parker. And Peter Parker really were the clone. And Aunt May would have stayed dead. ASM # 400 wouldn't have been made a mockery of. Peter Parker, the clone, would have moved to Oregon with his hot supermodel, but nagging wife with their beautiful baby girl, May. Peter would make occassional appearances to help Ben with some of the past villains that he hasn't handled. Ben Reilly would make a life for himself, take back his life as Spider-Man, and he has his entire life in front of him.

All of those pesky retcons that have convulted the Spider-Man mythos would have never happened. Baby May would be alive and well. Peter and Mary Jane could finally be truly happy together without Spider-Man to interfere in their lives. The story of Spider-Man goes on with practically the same exact person with the same exact powers and, for the most part, the same memories...feelings...ideas...emotions...love for passed loved ones. Ben Reilly would always be fighting as Spider-Man for the same reason that Peter did...because with Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

There would have been no return of Norman Osborn. Therefore, no Sins Past.

Sounds to me like the Spidey books would have been better off with Ben Reilly. :o

These "it all would have been better if they had just kept Ben Reilly" posts are based on faulty logic. The people making that argument are taking things three steps back when there are actually four.

Let's work our way backwards folks.

No Sins Past requires no Osborn return, which requires no need for a mastermind, which requires no clone saga, which requires no clone.

Bringing Ben Reilly into the picture was what started this chain of events in the first place. That saga destabilized the entire mythos and created the chaotic and demoralized atmosphere among the Spider-Man writers' group in which the idea of Norman Osborn being alive could be uttered without causing gut splitting laughter. Sure, many didn't like it, but after all that had taken place they could only shrug.

There were so many supposedly dead characters and demi gods running around, throwaways that appeared and dissolved in 10 pages; so many people watching people, who were watching other people, who were watching Friends -- but also watching the people who were watching Ben staring through the window wishing he had Pete's life [....], that the books had become an absolute farce. Was bringing Norman back, or any other ridiculous plotline that followed, a stretch in an environment like that?

Surely you could see the potential for stories such as:
- Ben dating, and trying to reform, Doctor Octopus [Ala Black Cat].
- Ben being sought out by the dying Gwen clone, who confesses she had a child with the Miles Warren clone, who aged rapidly and is the serial killer Ben has been hunting: "The Jack of all Trades."
- Ben becoming the chosen warrior to fight on the side of heaven, taking Judas' place after Scrier betrayed and killed him, in a war against Mephisto's invading forces. This would culminate in Ben's battle against the negative energies that fled the souls of Janine, Aunt May, Gwen and Uncle Ben when they went to paradise.

Those scenarios were feasible in a post clone saga, Spider-Ben era.



Simply put, the writers made bad choices. They could have chosen to avoid stories like the Man-Spider saga. They didn't. They could have avoided stories like the Gathering of Five. They didn't. It is disingenuous to focus on a single writing choice you felt they made wrong [ousting Ben], while ignoring the dozens of other paths they might have taken which also could have resulted in good Spider-Man stories. Stories that didn't require separating Peter Parker and Spider-Man into different characters. Was that some insurmountable challenge for Marvel?

You can call the rejection of the clone saga what you will, but fans simply will not accept the separation of an iconic comic hero book from his alter ego. It would never have lasted. Neither would Ben have been a part of good Spider-Man stories unless the writers made good creative choices. If that was all that was needed, why not apply such choices to Peter Parker?

[Rez]

You can call the rejection of the clone saga what you will, but fans simply will not accept the separation of an iconic comic hero book from his alter ego. It would never have lasted. Neither would Ben have been a part of good Spider-Man stories unless the writers made good creative choices. If that was all that was needed, why not apply such choices to Peter Parker?

The REASON the clone as Ben was reintroduced was quite similar to where we are right now.

Everyone was fed up.

Peter Parker and Spiderman had gone through so much out of charecter writing and so many poor creative decisions that people wanted to return things to a good starting place.

Enter Ben Reilly!

It seems to me you are suggesting that the Clone Saga in general was the first domino in this bad chain of events. Take a look at my post- If they had stuck on track with it, that would have been avoided.

But that's getting off topic. The point is, right now, we are in a thread begging for the last 10 years of Spiderman to have all been a terrible dream, a plot by Mysterio, Ben Reilly in disguise... again.. Something, anything else than what it really has been.

When the irony of it all is that the Clone Saga AROSE out the same exact situation, with the goal of fixing it all.
However, instead of sticking to the PLAN of fixing it all, they pooped out. And it took us down a path even worse than before.

[TheWhiteSpider]

The REASON the clone as Ben was reintroduced was quite similar to where we are right now.

Everyone was fed up.

Peter Parker and Spiderman had gone through so much out of charecter writing and so many poor creative decisions that people wanted to return things to a good starting place.

The answer to out of character writing and poor creative decisions is in character writing and good creative decisions. Simple, no?

Once upon a time the writers of Spider-Man made some misjudgements on the character's direction. Instead of coming up with a new, better direction, they chose to introduce a long dead villain, mystical characters, a mega event and other nonsense. That was 1993-1994.


The self stated goal of the clone saga was to "shake the Spiderverse like it's never been shaken before!" Yeah, they shook it so hard that Peter Parker and his entire supporting cast fell out.


Enter Ben Reilly!


Ben didn't appear from thin air. Stories are planned up to a year in advance. Remember when Peter started acting psychotic and out of character? Guess who was on his way to town to fix the newly created problem.


It seems to me you are suggesting that the Clone Saga in general was the first domino in this bad chain of events. Take a look at my post- If they had stuck on track with it, that would have been avoided.


The clone saga began long before Power and Responsibility, my friend. Some of the things you say people were "fed up" about were done in order to build up to the saga, itself. There was no outcry amongst Spider-Man fans before the robo-parents/Man-Spider arc. The arc which lead directly to the clone saga. Do you believe the writers at Marvel created the clone saga to appease the fans? If so, you're mistaken. They were trying to create a Death of Superman/Batman: Knightfall/Age of Apocalypse style event -- as they have stated.

The writers involved admit that the books were an absolute creative mess during the saga, and totally out of control because of it.

Demi gods were not running around with Aunt May's supposed soul in a jar because Ben was voted out. Clone armies of hundreds of Peter Parkers were not bouncing around because they abandoned "plan Ben." Those things happened because the storyline was ridiculous. At one point, people even thought the character of Spider-Man was gone as well as Peter Parker, leaving comic store owners exasperated over the confusion readers had on the matter.

What I'm reminding people of is the fact that saga itself was as silly as the things happening today, and wounded the franchise -- all the way down to the individual writers -- before Ben was declared the clone or killed. Spidercide came before they backtracked. Maximum Clonage came before they backtracked. Peter as the Jackal's flunky came before they backtracked. All those terrible things that people point to and laugh [or cry] were all a part of the original plan.

The problem was bringing in ideas like robot parents and previously dead clones and villains, in the first place.



But that's getting off topic. The point is, right now, we are in a thread begging for the last 10 years of Spiderman to have all been a terrible dream, a plot by Mysterio, Ben Reilly in disguise... again.. Something, anything else than what it really has been.


And you know what the solution to the problem is? Good, creative writing. The same solution they should have applied the first time.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Ya know, I love how people blame th' Clone Saga fer alla this. THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO RECOVER. They dropped th' ball, end of story.

[TheWhiteSpider]

Ya know, I love how people blame th' Clone Saga fer alla this. THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO RECOVER. They dropped th' ball, end of story.

Wolv, I'm not blaming the saga. I'm blaming poor writing and direction, in any form. Saying Ben Reilly would have made it all better ignores the fact that it takes good writing to make great comics. A character is only as good as he is written. Whatever his name is.

[Citizen_Kaine]

Everything after Ben put on the Spider Man costume was great, I'm one of the few (If any) who generally disliked the Scarlet Spider days of the Saga. WhiteSpider I'll agree with you on how most of the early parts of the CS were borderline ridiculous, Traveller and Aunt May's soul, the introduction of the Jokel, and Maximum Cloneage Omega. Padding arcs even before the notion of our modern tpb's existed didn't help things either. However there is absolutly no way, anyone can tell me that the stories from Sensational Spider Man 0 onwards were anything but Spider Man perfection. Everything was solid

Interesting Cast - Check
Romantic Interests - Check
Classic Rogues - Check
Well Thought Out Storylines - Check, Check and Check

Blood Brothers, Revelations, Return of Spider Man, Media Blizzard, Return of Kaine, Onslaught Impact, all **** or higher reads

Hell even the typical Carnage storyline was good

Unfortunatly this run of greatness by Defalco, DeMaties, Jurgens, and Dezago was still being linked with the Mackie/Kavanagh crapola that the Clone Saga is constantly blanketed with. People we're still refusing to give Reilly a chance, even when Peter and Mj were brought in as supporting cast.

So Marvel did a 180 with Spidey and went back to where they started, with whiny, self loathing, bitter emo Pete, and still genereated quality stories like:

Goblins at the Gate, Identity Crisis, Hobgoblin Lives, Black Tarantula arc, Evil Incarnate and Spider Hunt.

The Clone Saga is innocent of these false charges labled against it. Hell after "Maximum Bonage" the stories were returning to new heights in quality, and as seen later, the stories were still consistant quality wise during the Post Saga years.

[TheWhiteSpider]

Everything after Ben put on the Spider Man costume was great, I'm one of the few (If any) who generally disliked the Scarlet Spider days of the Saga. WhiteSpider I'll agree with you on how most of the early parts of the CS were borderline ridiculous, Traveller and Aunt May's soul, the introduction of the Jokel, and Maximum Cloneage Omega. Padding arcs even before the notion of our modern tpb's existed didn't help things either. However there is absolutly no way, anyone can tell me that the stories from Sensational Spider Man 0 onwards were anything but Spider Man perfection. Everything was solid

Interesting Cast - Check
Romantic Interests - Check
Classic Rogues - Check
Well Thought Out Storylines - Check, Check and Check

Blood Brothers, Revelations, Return of Spider Man, Media Blizzard, Return of Kaine, Onslaught Impact, all **** or higher reads

Hell even the typical Carnage storyline was good

Unfortunatly this run of greatness by Defalco, DeMaties, Jurgens, and Dezago was still being linked with the Mackie/Kavanagh crapola that the Clone Saga is constantly blanketed with. People we're still refusing to give Reilly a chance, even when Peter and Mj were brought in as supporting cast.

So Marvel did a 180 with Spidey and went back to where they started, with whiny, self loathing, bitter emo Pete, and still genereated quality stories like:

Goblins at the Gate, Identity Crisis, Hobgoblin Lives, Black Tarantula arc, Evil Incarnate and Spider Hunt.

The Clone Saga is innocent of these false charges labled against it. Hell after "Maximum Bonage" the stories were returning to new heights in quality, and as seen later, the stories were still consistant quality wise during the Post Saga years.

I respect your opinion about the Ben as Spider-Man era. That's how you felt about it. However, I reject the idea, that some have, that removing Ben led to this. There is a deeper history than that which we all know. Besides, bad writing is what created Spider-Man's problems over the years, and there is no guarantee that Ben as Spidey would not have faced that problem.

[Rez]

And you know what the solution to the problem is? Good, creative writing. The same solution they should have applied the first time.

I'll give you that. At least were in agreement that that is the solution.

But I still hold by the statement that ditching Ben was the wrong way to go.

[Citizen_Kaine]

I'll give you that. At least were in agreement that that is the solution.

But I still hold by the statement that ditching Ben was the wrong way to go.

Ditto on both statements

[Rez]

I respect your opinion about the Ben as Spider-Man era. That's how you felt about it. However, I reject the idea, that some have, that removing Ben led to this. There is a deeper history than that which we all know. Besides, bad writing is what created Spider-Man's problems over the years, and there is no guarantee that Ben as Spidey would not have faced that problem.


No guarantee is very true. But I think that not even you could disagree that getting rid of him(and in turn, essentially ditching his half of the book- his supporting charecters, locations, and villians) closed out a lot of possibile storylines, both good and bad, depending on the writers.

[TheWhiteSpider]

Ditto on both statements

And they say pro Ben and pro Pete Spidey fans can't coexist.
;)

[Rez]

Haha! Who says such nonsense! I was pro both of them, myself.
Having them both around was like the new wonder twins, but on crack. Or something. Bad example?

[TheWhiteSpider]

Haha! Who says such nonsense! I was pro both of them, myself.
Having them both around was like the new wonder twins, but on crack. Or something. Bad example?

That's hilarious.

[Cullen]

I will not support a retcon that validates Bendis' bull*****.

:wolverineHow about this for a retcon: Superboy Prime punched the universe and the ripple effect transversed the multiverse into the 616, causing decades worth of bad stories.

Oh, and I start dating Power Girl.

If we're going to dream, we may as well dream big.

[Herr Logan]

How about this for a retcon: Superboy Prime punched the universe and the ripple effect transversed the multiverse into the 616, causing decades worth of bad stories.

Oh, and I start dating Power Girl.

If we're going to dream, we may as well dream big.

We want to blame this on DC Comics, now?

Good luck with your dream, by the way. :up:

:wolverine

[SpideyInATree]

I'm in favor of chalking all that bull***** up to Mysterio (the real one, that is, who wouldn't be dead even if 'Guardian Devil' had actually happened, because anyone who thinks a master illusionist can't fake his death in front of Daredevil is an idiot child) enhancing his shenanigans with the Cosmic Cube or something like that, creating a completely false ten years of Marvel History.

:wolverine

If you've read Spider-Man/Black Cat The Evil That Men Do you'd know that there is a new Mysterio on the loose. And it could easily fit into continuity as well.

[SpideyInATree]

No Sins Past requires no Osborn return, which requires no need for a mastermind, which requires no clone saga, which requires no clone.

No offense. But that statement...right there....shows you must not have read the Life of Reilly 35 part article which showed a behind the scenes look at Marvel's writers, artists, and editorial during the entire fiasco.

Norman Osborn wasn't even brought into the equation until they were already far into the Clone Saga. There was supposed to be a mastermind and it wasn't going to be Norman Osborn. Due to the outcry of fans and dropping sales they decided to go into a different direction. And brought back Norman Osborn. And with that ended the life of Baby May and Ben Reilly in one swoop.

[Herr Logan]

If you've read Spider-Man/Black Cat The Evil That Men Do you'd know that there is a new Mysterio on the loose. And it could easily fit into continuity as well.

I did read that piece of trash, and I already addressed that. That isn't Mysterio. That's Kevin Smith being a hack. The second to last sentence can't be argued at this point, as he hasn't actually done anything under the pretense of being Mysterio, yet. There's no guarantee he'll ever make use of that costume and gear, Kevin Smith being a fair-weather dillitante in the comic book world and all, although being a pessimist, I won't be suprised if another writer decides to run with Smith's half-assed replacement concept.

I'm talking about Quentin Beck, a.k.a. the real Mysterio. The reason I don't hold Kevin Smith in contempt for killing the real Mysterio is because he can't truly be killed. Death is transient enough in the Marvel Universe in general, much less with a person whose expertise is fooling people into seeing, hearing, smelling and feeling things that aren't what they appear to be. He's not dead. Hell, he's even more "not dead" than Eddie Brock, and Eddie Brock isn't even close to dead. No body, no death, and more than half the time these days in the Marvel U., even a body doesn't guarantee death.

:wolverine

[SpideyInATree]

You know...all I said was that there is a new Mysterio on the loose and it could fit into continuity.

But...ok.

[TheWhiteSpider]

No offense. But that statement...right there....shows you must not have read the Life of Reilly 35 part article which showed a behind the scenes look at Marvel's writers, artists, and editorial during the entire fiasco.

Norman Osborn wasn't even brought into the equation until they were already far into the Clone Saga. There was supposed to be a mastermind and it wasn't going to be Norman Osborn. Due to the outcry of fans and dropping sales they decided to go into a different direction. And brought back Norman Osborn. And with that ended the life of Baby May and Ben Reilly in one swoop.

Actually I have. What you're quoting is an incomplete part of a larger point. The clone saga and all the nuttiness surrounding it created a climate in which Norman Osborn could return, whereas such a climate did not exist before the saga. The fact that he did return as an outcome of the saga is the living proof. In L.o.R., even the writers admit the saga had highly ridiculous elements and got out of control. Hard for that to happen if the event never happened, don't you think?

[Herr Logan]

You know...all I said was that there is a new Mysterio on the loose and it could fit into continuity.

But...ok.

Uh huh. Thanks for the newsflash. See ya 'round. :up:

:wolverine

[Grim Goblin]

I'm going with TheWhiteSpider here in saying that the whole problem is the bad writing. If you think about it for a second, the only reason those things worked well with Ben was because they approached his stories thinking it was a fresh character to develop. So they gave him a supporting cast and developed it. They gave him villains and developed them, etc...

Basicaly, they did everything right. But only because they approached it the way they would a fresh character. Had they done the same with Peter, it would have worked just as well. The problem is, they don't develop old characters in ways that aren't "shocking" and meant to "break the internet in half". They just cut-paste the same old attitudes and dialogue and call it a day.