DC's Illuminati

[Lone Wolf]

If DC had a team like Marvel's where some of the biggest heroes from different groups were to gather into one, who should it consist of?

[The Question]

Batman
Martian Manhunter
Jason Blood
The Atom
Aquaman
Nnamdi
Wonder Woman

[Lone Wolf]

Batman
Martian Manhunter
Jason Blood
The Atom
Aquaman
Nnamdi
Wonder Woman

Nice list, here's mine.

Batman (JLA, funding)
Aquaman (Atlantis)
Hawkman (Thanagar)
Mr. Terrific (JSA, Checkmate)
The Atom (Brains)
Martian Manhunter (Able to connect to everyone)
Dr. Fate or Jason Blood (Magic and sorcery department)
Oracle (Information broker)

[TheCorpulent1]

DC wouldn't have a team like that because DC doesn't have this strange drive to make many of their once-noble characters into duplicitous jerks.

[GoldenAgeHero]

DC wouldn't have a team like that because DC doesn't have this strange drive to make many of their once-noble characters into duplicitous jerks.

bingo! thats why the whole civil war concept is just stupid to me.

[Dr. Mid-Nite]

Both Question's and Batman's teams are great, they include alot of the heavy hitters in the DCU, here's mine.

Mr. Terrific
Martian Manhunter
Adam Strange
Dr. Fate
Aquaman
Black Adam
Hal Jordan
Captain Comet

And of course, Dr. Mid-Nite as the teams expert surgeon. :)

[The Question]

DC wouldn't have a team like that because DC doesn't have this strange drive to make many of their once-noble characters into duplicitous jerks.



Well, Namor, Black Bolt, and occasionally Xaivier have been known to be jerks in the past.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Well, Namor, Black Bolt, and occasionally Xaivier have been known to be jerks in the past.

how the hell is black bolt even in the group anyways? they haven't explained why he's there have they? what possible reason can he have to be in that group?

[Dr. Mid-Nite]

how the hell is black bolt even in the group anyways? they haven't explained why he's there have they? what possible reason can he have to be in that group?

Cause he represents for the Inhumans?


-Doc

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Namor, Black Bolt, and occasionally Xaivier have been known to be jerks in the past.
Tony, Namor, and, after the Mystique series, Xavier I could understand. When has Black Bolt ever been a jerk, though? When has Strange ever deigned to coordinate with others? If he needs you, he'll summon you and mystically bind your ass to him so you'll get projectile diarrhea if you don't do what he wants. When has Reed ever done anything like what the Illuminati have him doing these days? When's the last time he kept a major secret from the rest of the FF (not counting "Authoritative Action" since that had very specific circumstances that the Illuminati's existence does not). It never bodes well for a group when you have to mischaracterize about half of them to get them to the table.

[The Question]

Black Bolt has always struck me as very set in his ways in terms of tradition and protecting Atillan. This has led to some jerk-like tendancies. With Reed, it seems that he came into the group with the best intentions, and things have simply slowly spyraled into a very dark place.

[Dwarf lord]

If anyone would be DC's Illuminati, it would be:
Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
The Flash
Martain Manhunter
Green Lantern
Aquaman

Yes, DC's Illuminati is the big 7.

[Pksoze]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/cartoons/identity_crisis2.jpg

[Lone Wolf]

DC wouldn't have a team like that because DC doesn't have this strange drive to make many of their once-noble characters into duplicitous jerks.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, if. I know it's likely to happen, I was just curious as to who people think should join the team if ever one was formed.

[MaskedManJRK]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/cartoons/identity_crisis2.jpg

Heh, that's pretty true. DC already has something like the Illuminati, it's called "The League Within the League." :o

[gildea]

DC wouldn't have a team like that because DC doesn't have this strange drive to make many of their once-noble characters into duplicitous jerks.

Nonsense.

They've done it with batman REPEATEDLY.

leslie tomkins also.

The whole identity crisis thing really 'dirtied' some characters.

And superboy prime is hardly as nice as he once was.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Nonsense.

They've done it with batman REPEATEDLY.

leslie tomkins also.

The whole identity crisis thing really 'dirtied' some characters.

And superboy prime is hardly as nice as he once was.

but theres a difference. what marvel has is dumb story telling. which barely makes sense. identity crisis was executed alot better and the explanation was actually sound. the illumnati is doing was actually out selfishness and dilusio and really out of character.

[batnkevlar]

Nonsense.

They've done it with batman REPEATEDLY.

leslie tomkins also.

The whole identity crisis thing really 'dirtied' some characters.

And superboy prime is hardly as nice as he once was.

I agree about Leslie, and SuperboyPrime and whatnot are from different dimensions, so whatever...

but Identity Crisis was very sound. The thing about that was everyone has a different personality and had their own reasons for doing what they did. They weren't out of character...

[gildea]

but theres a difference. what marvel has is dumb story telling. which barely makes sense. identity crisis was executed alot better and the explanation was actually sound. the illumnati is doing was actually out selfishness and dilusio and really out of character.

in your opinion.

Why does it barely make sense? All the illuminati was was an exchange of information, are you arguing heroes talking to each other is nonsensical?

I really don't think that a lot of batmans behaviour in war games (and in some other arcs) counts as "making sense".

I don't think anyone in their right mind can justify what was done with leslie.

and janette loring KILLING her friend to get back together with her husband? (oh yeah she wasn't trying to kill her just attack her..) (i should point out i enjoyed id.c)

DC has dirtied up their characters just as much and arguably more so if you want to catalogue batmans list of insanity (given that he is a much bigger name than anyone in the illuminati)

Of course it's all opinion.

[gildea]

but Identity Crisis was very sound. The thing about that was everyone has a different personality and had their own reasons for doing what they did. They weren't out of character...


I'm not claiming to know much about janette loring but where was she first shown as clinically insane other than id.c

And doctor light was retaconned into a rapist.

I should point out that I'm not actually saying this is bad writing at all only that DC is willing to dirty up it's characters.

and i didn't see anyone act out of character in illuminati either

[Lackey]

the only "out of character" thing you've mentioned is Leslie Thompkins... and as far as I know, no DC fans are happy that they did that with the character.

besides that, there's certainly nothing on the level of Reed Richards in the Illuminati.

[Lackey]

And doctor light was retaconned into a rapist.



what they retconned was an explanation for why Doctor Light went from serious threat in the DCU to a goofy Teen Titans villain that was easily beat by these kids everytime.

[hippie_hunter]

Why does it barely make sense? All the illuminati was was an exchange of information, are you arguing heroes talking to each other is nonsensical?
No the goals of an Illuminati organization is to secretly control the aspects of certain functions of life

I really don't think that a lot of batmans behaviour in war games (and in some other arcs) counts as "making sense".
Batman's mindwipe is a big explaination for Batman's behavior as a paranoid douchebag

I don't think anyone in their right mind can justify what was done with leslie.
True, but at least it was written well.

and janette loring KILLING her friend to get back together with her husband? (oh yeah she wasn't trying to kill her just attack her..) (i should point out i enjoyed id.c)
It's Jean Lorring and she's had a history of mental problems. Thus thinking up with that idea is understandable.

DC has dirtied up their characters just as much and arguably more so if you want to catalogue batmans list of insanity (given that he is a much bigger name than anyone in the illuminati)
But DC has dirtied up thier characters with good storytelling. They did so to protect their loved ones, not themselves and what they stand for.

[gildea]

superboy prime was always a mad killer was he?

batman's been written as an insane d**k for a while now something DC have even admitted too.

and the janette loring thing is a far bigger character shift than reed richards trying to give the hulk somethig he's always wanted (to be left alone).

[hippie_hunter]

what they retconned was an explanation for why Doctor Light went from serious threat in the DCU to a goofy Teen Titans villain that was easily beat by these kids everytime.

Exactly, DC is taking the time with their villains by either making the lame ones cool (like Dr. Light and Catman) or killing them off (like the KGBeast and the Ventriloquist). It totally kicks ass.

[gildea]

No the goals of an Illuminati organization is to secretly control the aspects of certain functions of life


no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no

Batman's mindwipe is a big explaination for Batman's behavior as a paranoid douchebag

Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.

True, but at least it was written well.

Surely thats a contradiction

But DC has dirtied up thier characters with good storytelling. They did so to protect their loved ones, not themselves and what they stand for.

The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?



I don't really know enough about jean loring to debate about her. (evidently :) )

[Lackey]

superboy prime was always a mad killer was he?

I don't think you've got an argument here with SBP, this is a character that was only used once before. And the IC Secret Files issue explained motive very well.

batman's been written as an insane d**k for a while now something DC have even admitted too.

He's was a dick, not an insane one...and yes, he's been that way FOR A WHILE...it didn't just suddenly happen in one issue. And the way DC is fixing it is gradually, not just writing him out of character in one issue.
Plus, although he may be a dick, he's hasn't done anything ignoble like deceiving one of his friends and sending him out in exile.

and the janette loring thing is a far bigger character shift than reed richards trying to give the hulk somethig he's always wanted (to be left alone).

Not if you know the history of the character.

[Wargod]

IMO, In DCU the closest thing that resembles Marvel's Illuminati is The Quintessence.

[gildea]

I don't think you've got an argument here with SBP, this is a character that was only used once before. And the IC Secret Files issue explained motive very well.

It's still a million miles away from how he was previously written.


He's was a dick, not an insane one...and yes, he's been that way FOR A WHILE...it didn't just suddenly happen in one issue. And the way DC is fixing it is gradually, not just writing him out of character in one issue.
Plus, although he may be a dick, he's hasn't done anything ignoble like deceiving one of his friends and sending him out in exile.

At one point he resolved to "give up" the identity of Bruce wayne. Seems pretty crazy to me.
He doesn't decieve his friends? Tower of babel, brother eye etc etc. He's done plenty of ignoble things.



Not if you know the history of the character.

I'll cop to that. I don't.



BUT (and I repeat), I am not discussing the QUALITY of DC's writing (despite how my posts sound). I am only saying they ALSO will dirty up their characters if they see fit.

The only quality thing i've really argued (in a quality sense) is people saying the illumanati is out of character, i really don't think it is. All hulk wants is to be left alone after all (and reed has been expressing regrets in FF).

[hippie_hunter]

no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no

But after events such as launching the Hulk into space, it looks like that Tony has gotten his wish.

Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.
Yes it does, Batman wasn't always considered to be a complete douchebag. The mindwipe was the start of things but his douchebagginess and paranoia was made worse with events such as the death of Jason Todd, the breaking of his back, the No Man's Land, and being framed for murder.

Surely thats a contradiction
No it isn't. What they did to Lesile was a bastardization of her character, but War Crimes was a rare example of bastardization with good storytelling.

The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?
The point of DC's Power Pact was to protect the family of the Justice League: Alfred Pennyworth, Lesile Thompkins, Jean Lorring, Carrol Ferris, Iris Allen, Sue Dibny, Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen, Mera, and others. They were determined to keep the identies of those who haven't went public so that their families could remain safe. Marvel's Illuminati has characters such as Mr. Fantastic acting out of character by launching the Hulk into space for no reason (at least we could say that Lesile lost it and was completely fed up with Batman, what reason would Reed launch the Hulk into space after the good he has done for the world)

[GoldenAgeHero]

superboy prime was always a mad killer was he?

batman's been written as an insane d**k for a while now something DC have even admitted too.

and the janette loring thing is a far bigger character shift than reed richards trying to give the hulk somethig he's always wanted (to be left alone).

no he was'nt. secret files and IC, dirtied him up real good, withgood story telling tho. but i thought it was really mean fo them to turn him into a deranged fool( i dont think he is, he's just lost,confused and manipulated.


no shes not, she had history of mental disorders so her story was executed very well.

[GoldenAgeHero]

no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no



Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.



Surely thats a contradiction



The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?



I don't really know enough about jean loring to debate about her. (evidently :) )

but reed still agreed with tony on everything else tho. also the whole thing with tony and his opinion felt out of character to me also.

[gildea]

But after events such as launching the Hulk into space, it looks like that Tony has gotten his wish.

whats the other events?


As said i don't believe its out of character for reed. Hulk only ever wanted to be left alone.

Yes it does, Batman wasn't always considered to be a complete douchebag. The mindwipe was the start of things but his douchebagginess and paranoia was made worse with events such as the death of Jason Todd, the breaking of his back, the No Man's Land, and being framed for murder.

No it doesn't. Joker = villain. Batman tried to kill him in hush.

and thats kinda my point ( batman wasn't always a complete douchebag but dc has dirtied him up.

as said the my only true point is in direct response to corpulents that dc DOES dirty up it's characters. I AM NOT TRULY ARGUING THE JUSTIFICATION!!!

[Anubis]

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Gildea here. He's right. DC has done pretty much the same thing. And the Illuminati were originally brought together to exchange ideas and solve problems. And it got terribly out of hand. Much like the Power Pact of Identity Crisis who originally got together to cover the hero's asses should villains find out they're secrets. Both perfectly understandable. Both went terribly wrong.

He's also right about a number of characters becoming deceptive and even evil in some cases. Alex Luthor and Superboy Prime are one example. You got Batman. There are a few Barry Allen fans that would never understand his voting for the mind f**k of Dr. Light, as well as doing what he did to the Top. Doesn't matter if you enjoyed it, fact is, it's the same thing thats going on at Marvel in a way.

As far as the Illuminati, I also don't see how they've done anything wrong up to this point. I do agree with Black Panthers assement (in the Illuminati special.) that they never should have gotten involved in the first place because of what would happen. But, for years they met, exchanged info, and were pretty much on the up and up. That is until they made the decision to launch Hulk into space. Which, I can kinda understand. The guys a freakin monster. Shoulda done it a long time ago. Does that make them evil? No. But did they have the right? Theres the question. It shows that they have decided to make decisions that, quite frankly shouldn't be theres to make. Like BP said, you just decide that you are the only people worthy to make decisions for the good of the world? Where do you get off? Personally, I'm looking forward to this mini. I wasn't gonna get it, but it is interesting. And does in fact remind me of the events of Identity Crisis. Heros makeing decisions on their own that no man has a right to make.

[XwolverineX]

Batman
Mr. Terrific
Aquaman
Zauriel
Martian Manhunter
Alan Scott

[Lackey]

It's still a million miles away from how he was previously written.

Same as the origin of most villains who start off with good intentions in one issue, something tragic and life changing happens and then they switch sides... we see this time and time again in comics. Except with SPB, it happened over many, many years. That's the thing I think you're not seeing... we saw him only once before, then many years later, he's changed. It didn't happen instantly from one day to the next.




At one point he resolved to "give up" the identity of Bruce wayne. Seems pretty crazy to me.

Well, it's not crazy when Bruce Wayne is wanted for murder... how do you expect him to go around being Bruce Wayne, a man wanted for murder who has escaped from prison? C'mon.

He doesn't decieve his friends? Tower of babel, brother eye etc etc. He's done plenty of ignoble things.

That's not deception, and definitely not out of character...and no he hasn't done plenty of ignoble things.



The only quality thing i've really argued (in a quality sense) is people saying the illumanati is out of character, i really don't think it is. All hulk wants is to be left alone after all (and reed has been expressing regrets in FF).

Reed keeping this from his own wife is out of character. Reed deceiving his friend Bruce Banner to banish him to outerspace is out of character.

[BrianWilly]

The inherent purpose of the Illuminati was for members from different aspects of the superhero world to meet, exchange information and ideas, and plan ahead for possible threats.

The DCU doesn't need an Illuminati because members from different aspects of the superhero world already meet, exchange information and ideas, and plan ahead for possible threats all the time anyway. Magicians, scientists, natural metas (aka mutants), leaders of other dimensions and countries, and aliens from outer space comprise a reasonable equality amongst the JLA, JSA, Teen Titans, and Outsiders. And even those separate teams meet each other all the time for dinner and parties and sht.

In the Marvel universe, however, generic superheroes make up one distinct team, mutants are completely separate faction, the Fantastic Four operate on their own terms, and then there's people like Namor and Black Panther who intentially remain distant. They needed some way of keeping in touch with each other. In fact, I'm not really sure why they were a secret society in the first place.

[gildea]

Same as the origin of most villains who start off with good intentions in one issue, something tragic and life changing happens and then they switch sides... we see this time and time again in comics. Except with SPB, it happened over many, many years. That's the thing I think you're not seeing... we saw him only once before, then many years later, he's changed. It didn't happen instantly from one day to the next.

Irrelevant i'm only saying he DID change.





Well, it's not crazy when Bruce Wayne is wanted for murder... how do you expect him to go around being Bruce Wayne, a man wanted for murder who has escaped from prison? C'mon.

No i expect him to try and clear his name. though he did eventually his intial attidtude was "no i'll just leave it and never be bruce wayne".



That's not deception, and definitely not out of character...and no he hasn't done plenty of ignoble things.

The JLA certainly felt decived. The arc also played him as deceptive, using innocent questions and training routines to study them and make plans. Really I don't see how doing one thing and planning in secret from that ISN'T deceptive.

Ignoble? In a fight with dick in the fugitive arc he worked him into smashing through the jason todd memorial, seems pretty ignoble to me.
sucker punched hal recently too (revenge isn't a particularly noble thing, especially amongst heroes).




Reed keeping this from his own wife is out of character. Reed deceiving his friend Bruce Banner to banish him to outerspace is out of character.

Not if it's all hulk ever wanted it's not. Plus it had the added bonus of making the world safer. I'd say it was more dishonest than out of character.
Reeds certainly done his fair share of deception if he thinks its for the best. In waids last issue he accused ben of trying to avoid getting his powers back, starting a fight with him so he would go home all for the right reason tat the end of the day.
At the end of the day reed only tried to make the world safer and the hulk happier how is that out of character?

[Lackey]

Irrelevant i'm only saying he DID change.

It is relevant because you're trying to compare this to what Marvel has done and it's not the same.


No i expect him to try and clear his name. though he did eventually his intial attidtude was "no i'll just leave it and never be bruce wayne".

It's understandable for him to be in a semi state of depression and have a somewhat "give up" attitude after being defeated like that, bringing him to one of the lowest points in his life. He also probably felt that he'd never be able to clear Bruce Wayne's name...and if Cain hadn't given up, that probably would be true.


The JLA certainly felt decived. The arc also played him as deceptive, using innocent questions and training routines to study them and make plans. Really I don't see how doing one thing and planning in secret from that ISN'T deceptive.

They felt betrayed, not deceived. He kept something from them that they felt he should've trusted them with, and some felt he shouldn't have done at all. They felt that he didn't trust them and in turn they didn't trust him any longer.

After this arc, Batman has been proven right time and time again... are you going to tell me that when Planet Hulk is over and done with, the Illuminati will be proven right by their decision?

Ignoble? In a fight with dick in the fugitive arc he worked him into smashing through the jason todd memorial, seems pretty ignoble to me.
sucker punched hal recently too (revenge isn't a particularly noble thing, especially amongst heroes).

I think you're reaching if you have to look to fist fights to find something here. I'm thinking on a bigger scale like mindwiping or tricking a friend into exile or even lying to your wife.


Not if it's all hulk ever wanted it's not.

Then you'd think he could've discussed it rationally with Banner instead of tricking him.

Plus it had the added bonus of making the world safer.

think of how many villains they could've sent out in space to make the world safer

I'd say it was more dishonest than out of character.
Reeds certainly done his fair share of deception if he thinks its for the best. In waids last issue he accused ben of trying to avoid getting his powers back, starting a fight with him so he would go home all for the right reason tat the end of the day.

That really doesn't compare in the least to what he did to Banner.

At the end of the day reed only tried to make the world safer and the hulk happier how is that out of character?

I'm sure the Hulk will thank him when he gets back. :)

[gildea]

It is relevant because you're trying to compare this to what Marvel has done and it's not the same.

Its exactly the same (in context). The comment was DC doesn't dirty up their characters i said they do and provided examples.

Thats the only comparison i'm making, anything else you've inferred.

(i noticed you've not actually disagreed with my comparison, only drawn arguement on justification which aside from batman and the actions of the illuminati i have made no claims)


It's understandable for him to be in a semi state of depression and have a somewhat "give up" attitude after being defeated like that, bringing him to one of the lowest points in his life. He also probably felt that he'd never be able to clear Bruce Wayne's name...and if Cain hadn't given up, that probably would be true.

Hardly the evidence against him was incredibly patchy. Prior to that arc he was also having conversations with himself in the batcave and hallucinating a giant bat figure.


They felt betrayed, not deceived. He kept something from them that they felt he should've trusted them with, and some felt he shouldn't have done at all. They felt that he didn't trust them and in turn they didn't trust him any longer.

The felt betrayed by his deception. You're splitting hairs if you're trying to make that argument. Besides betrayal is when you turn against someone he didn't, his plans he made just fell into the wrong hands. (anyway put deception into theasaurus.com and you'll get betrayal).

Thats an incredibly weak point.

After this arc, Batman has been proven right time and time again... are you going to tell me that when Planet Hulk is over and done with, the Illuminati will be proven right by their decision?

Yeah brother eye worked out REALLY well.
It's not a matter of right or wrong (and never has been) all the discussion with the illuminati issue has been if it was in character. NOTHING about their characters makes them infallible (not sure why you put that in to be honest).



I think you're reaching if you have to look to fist fights to find something here. I'm thinking on a bigger scale like mindwiping or tricking a friend into exile or even lying to your wife.

I could argue he launched brother eye even after tower of babel. Regardless i think desecrating the memorial of a fallen comerade is worse than with withholding information from your wife (depending on the information of course).


Then you'd think he could've discussed it rationally with Banner instead of tricking him.

yes. Unfortunately they had no guarantee they could convince him.

think of how many villains they could've sent out in space to make the world safer

They have. With doom and magneto. Unfortunately they came back.



That really doesn't compare in the least to what he did to Banner.

I didn't say it was the same only that he was capable of deception.



I'm sure the Hulk will thank him when he gets back. :)

Who knows? :)

[Doc Destruction]

IC has been brewing in the DC universe for a very very long time. It is taut, fine toothed storytelling.

The Illuminati was dropped in our laps from nowhere and we were told that they have been around a very long time, with NO evidence to support that claim whatsoever.

DC doesn't need an illuminati. They have good writers instead. I'll take that anyday.

[Anubis]

Actually there is a conection to past continuity with the Illuminati. I think it was put in that Civil War thread over in the Marvel Forums. Everybody was shocked that they actually used the established continuity for a story.

[Harlekin]

Actually there is a conection to past continuity with the Illuminati. I think it was put in that Civil War thread over in the Marvel Forums. Everybody was shocked that they actually used the established continuity for a story.
I'm pretty sure the only foundation is actually the Illuminati coming together partially during the Contest of Champions, but that's all.

[gildea]

IC has hardly been retacon free.

Jason todd anyone?

the illminati makes a lot more sense than that.



(there I have committed to an opinion regarding the justification of something, HUZZAH!)

[Anubis]

True, but it does show all the involved characters together, years before this current story. So, it establishes that they've actually been seen together.

[Harlekin]

True, but it does show all the involved characters together, years before this current story. So, it establishes that they've actually been seen together.
I will admit to this. I doubt however that Bendis actually knew of this little throwaway scene.

[Anubis]

Maybe. All I'm saying is that, it's really no more implausable than say, what went down in Identity Crisis. It's not a question of weather or not they would become a secret society discussing the goings on of the Marvel Universe. The question is, will it be a good story? That remains to be seen. But I did enjoy the special, so at least it has promise in my eyes.

[Harlekin]

Maybe. All I'm saying is that, it's really no more implausable than say, what went down in Identity Crisis. It's not a question of weather or not they would become a secret society discussing the goings on of the Marvel Universe. The question is, will it be a good story? That remains to be seen. But I did enjoy the special, so at least it has promise in my eyes.
I will agree with you, because ultimately, the Power Pact and Illuminati were revealed in the exact same way. Just thrown into our lap. The difference between the two (and I'm not calling either good or bad) is that the Power Pact was used to 'explain' certain stories and changes, while the Illuminati was the setup for a new story (although the Pact was also used as that in some extent).

I think people would have more readily accepted the Illuminati if they had gotten some foreshadowing (say, have Tony call Strange or Reed after a particular adventure). The Power Pact was at the forefront of a 2-year plan, and the Illuminati was the forefront for a summer event. Oh well.

[yenaled]

For me the Power Pact made more sense, and I kind of already knew it was inplace before it was given a name. We know Hal, Ollie, Barry and Canary were really close, and we know Hawkman and Atom were always really close. It's also been shown numberous times that Elongated Man and Barry Allen were close. So you already had a close-nit team inside the League. With the Trinity being a known pillar of the League it seemed to write itself that this second string section of the League was very close also.

Where as the Illuminati was very quickly revealed. It would have been great if we had seen recently shadowy figures meeting and discussing a situation, with their numbers dropping each time - with people discussing other members of the Illuminati (grated it wouldn't have covered this history up till the first S/K War but it would have provided at least forshadowing). Then the special revealing what had been going on in the background.

[gildea]

Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.
I always get the sense that Marvel's foreshadowing is shoehorned in at the last minute. While I could actually see a progression that led to Infinite Crisis and, to a lesser extent, Identity Crisis over the course of more than a year in DC's comics, Marvel's tend to have one or two cryptic mentions thrown into a comic and then the event just plops right down into the middle of everything. I get the sense that DC's editing staff, or whoever controls their foresight and planning, is much more on top of their game than Marvel's. Maybe that's just me, though.

[gildea]

I always get the sense that Marvel's foreshadowing is shoehorned in at the last minute. While I could actually see a progression that led to Infinite Crisis and, to a lesser extent, Identity Crisis over the course of more than a year in DC's comics, Marvel's tend to have one or two cryptic mentions thrown into a comic and then the event just plops right down into the middle of everything. I get the sense that DC's editing staff, or whoever controls their foresight and planning, is much more on top of their game than Marvel's. Maybe that's just me, though.


for some things their foreshadowing has been better. Like the stuff built on from id. c and batmans d*ckery (though i think a lot is out of character I can't deny its there and they are at least trying to justify it?).

but other stuff such as jason todds resurrection have been just as shoehorned in (if not more so).

However i think DC has the benefit that Johns is better at working with continuity than practically any "name" writer at the moment so even if stuff was shoehorned in I doubt we'd notice.

having said that i'm not too bothered about foreshadowing stuff, as long as it makes logical sense otherwise stories would take forever (insert bendis decompressio joke here).

[Harlekin]

Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.
Exactly, in the time alotted. Marvel has been so eager to follow in DC's wake, that I don't take time to plan anymore. They could have set this up quite a while ago, but didn't think of it then, and now they want to rush into a summer event.

They have as much time as they want to have.

[Doc Destruction]

I agree here. The editors at DC just SMOKE the editors at Marvel (or lack thereof) these days. Shoehorning is a beautiful word for what's going on over there.

The Jason Todd thing was a gift from DC to the people who LOVED his appearance in Hush (me included). It wasn't a spectacular retcon, but certainly better than things like spider-gods and Goblin sex.

[gildea]

Exactly, in the time alotted. Marvel has been so eager to follow in DC's wake, that I don't take time to plan anymore. They could have set this up quite a while ago, but didn't think of it then, and now they want to rush into a summer event.

They have as much time as they want to have.


I dunno i don't really think that the story has been hurt with this lack of time spent on establishing the illuminati (i kinda think they should be mysterious anyway). I mean how often in the past has marvel followed one 3 year plus story? I don't think marvel have spent too little time on planning it per se (heck dc's planning of IC from a non story perspective has been dodgy at times).

If i may ask how much foreshadowing does an event actually need to work?

[gildea]

The Jason Todd thing was a gift from DC to the people who LOVED his appearance in Hush (me included). It wasn't a spectacular retcon, but certainly better than things like spider-gods and Goblin sex.


Doc there are wars, famines, plagues and other assorted stuff that are better than spider-gods and goblin sex.

[Harlekin]

I dunno i don't really think that the story has been hurt with this lack of time spent on establishing the illuminati (i kinda think they should be mysterious anyway). I mean how often in the past has marvel followed one 3 year plus story? I don't think marvel have spent too little time on planning it per se (heck dc's planning of IC from a non story perspective has been dodgy at times).

If i may ask how much foreshadowing does an event actually need to work?
I was mostly responding to the thought that Marvel did all the foreshadowing in the time they had, while in fact, they make the rules with how much time they have for foreshadowing.

Each type of story and mystery requires a different level of foreshadowing. I'd have given the Illuminati at least a year before fully revealing their full scope. I do kind of like the approach they took, since you get the bang immediately for the buck, but it shoots out any long-term investment in the mysterious Illuminati plot IMO.

[gildea]

I was mostly responding to the thought that Marvel did all the foreshadowing in the time they had, while in fact, they make the rules with how much time they have for foreshadowing.

Each type of story and mystery requires a different level of foreshadowing. I'd have given the Illuminati at least a year before fully revealing their full scope. I do kind of like the approach they took, since you get the bang immediately for the buck, but it shoots out any long-term investment in the mysterious Illuminati plot IMO.


Fair point.

It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.

[TheCorpulent1]

for some things their foreshadowing has been better. Like the stuff built on from id. c and batmans d*ckery (though i think a lot is out of character I can't deny its there and they are at least trying to justify it?).

but other stuff such as jason todds resurrection have been just as shoehorned in (if not more so).

However i think DC has the benefit that Johns is better at working with continuity than practically any "name" writer at the moment so even if stuff was shoehorned in I doubt we'd notice.

having said that i'm not too bothered about foreshadowing stuff, as long as it makes logical sense otherwise stories would take forever (insert bendis decompressio joke here).
I hated Jason Todd's resurrection almost as much as some of the stuff at Marvel. I'll cop to the fact that Marvel actually worked a much better dead sidekick resurrection with Bucky than DC did with Jason Todd. The sooner Jason's back in the ground, the happier I'll be; Bucky has actually got some potential to be an interesting character now that he has his memories back, though.

I also don't like the Superboy Prime punch explanation behind Infinite Crisis. That was a huge anti-climax for me. Someone told me about it when it was revealed in the Batman Annual about Jason's resurrection and I laughed in their face because I thought DC would never do something that stupid. Oh well.

I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.

[Harlekin]

Fair point.

It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.
On the one hand I actually appreciate that. It's a plot device, and the idea behind it is enjoyable enough, but on the other hand it could really use some fleshing out.

I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.
And let's not forget Waid and Giffen.

[TheCorpulent1]

I had Waid in there initially, but I took his name out because I couldn't really remember where he'd contributed a lot to coordination and foreshadowing. As far as I'm aware, Rucka's probably had a lot more impact on coordinating the current transformation of the DCU more than Waid. I still love Waid's writing, though--Legion's still managing to be good in spite of Supergirl's presence, which is quite a feat. ;)

Giffen's moonlighting over at Marvel--and probably coordinating more there, with Annihilation basically being his baby, as I understand it--so he doesn't count. :p

[roach]

I also agree with those points. DC's IC seemed like it was planned from the start about a year ago and it shows. Marvel's House of M, Illuminati, and Civil War are Marvel's attempts to try and catch up...and they are failing(yes I know it's wrong to catagorize CW as a failure without reading it but the premise is wonky with me). What Marvel needs to do is stop releasing all these events and worry about next year....plant the seeds for some kick ass story that will actually shatter the internet in half.

[gildea]

I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.

Indeed johns is great at work with existing continuity. Morrison is an insane genius however particularly when referencing his own stuff, you see this a bit in his x-men run but in seven soldiers its amazing.

[The Batman]

The sad part is, DC's really using marvel tactics to tell good stories.

The Connected universe and continuity, all that was established by Stan Lee and his marvel bullpen, where they would work together in the same building.

[BrianWilly]

It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.I think Bendis mentioned that the Illuminati are going to be explored further down the road with flashbacks and stuff. But I basically agree; that whole issue was meant to explore the drama of the Illuminati breaking up, and yet we just met them, like, a minute ago.

I like the general concept of the Illuminati even if the execution didn't go quite as good as we'd hoped 'cause, like I said, the Marvel universe needs an Illuminati; hopefully we might get, like, New Illuminati or something after Civil War.

[gildea]

To be honest i'm hugely optimistic about civil war but when you think of it in this context of connected stories (whether you like the story or not) marvel really could have built on HOM more. The 198 thing i haven't read, dunno if it was any good or not but it seems to have been largely ignored. The point of house of M of getting mutants to a vastly reduced number seems to have just been stated then never built on. For instance the UN could now grab magneto and put him on trial properly. etc All the minis that related to it didn't get big name talent and much of a push once the civil war hype machine started.

[gildea]

I think Bendis mentioned that the Illuminati are going to be explored further down the road with flashbacks and stuff. But I basically agree; that whole issue was meant to explore the drama of the Illuminati breaking up, and yet we just met them, like, a minute ago.

I like the general concept of the Illuminati even if the execution didn't go quite as good as we'd hoped 'cause, like I said, the Marvel universe needs an Illuminati; hopefully we might get, like, New Illuminati or something after Civil War.

I think bendis realised this, as instead of concentrating on the drama of the team itself breaking up he focused on t'challas refusal and tension between tony and namor.

I did really enjoy it mind you.

[Lackey]

I hated Jason Todd's resurrection almost as much as some of the stuff at Marvel. I'll cop to the fact that Marvel actually worked a much better dead sidekick resurrection with Bucky than DC did with Jason Todd. The sooner Jason's back in the ground, the happier I'll be; Bucky has actually got some potential to be an interesting character now that he has his memories back, though.


I've got no problem wtih Jason Todd being alive, it's how it was handled that I have a problem with...I agree with most everyone's feelings on that. And I do agree with Bucky's resurrection was handled much better in a better story.

[roach]

No More Mutants could have been built on immensely but it wasnt. It was another plot that was tossed aside as soon as the storyline was finished.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've got no problem wtih Jason Todd being alive, it's how it was handled that I have a problem with...I agree with most everyone's feelings on that. And I do agree with Bucky's resurrection was handled much better in a better story.
That's what I meant. I was just as opposed to--Is that Sarah Silverman in your avatar? Goddamnit, it's distracting! :(

Anyway, I was just as opposed to Bucky's resurrection as I was to Jason's, but Brubaker actually won me over with the story. Winick just made me laugh, then sigh in disappointment. Even with Infinite Crisis, although the event as a whole is still good, I'll always be disappointed by the fact that Superboy Prime's anger management issues were behind everything. And Jason Todd's resurrection doesn't even have that "although the thing itself is good" caveat working for it.

[Superman \S/]

Steel
Dr. Fate
Hawk Girl
Atom
Booster Gold
Power Girl

[roach]

I would rather that DC continue setting the trend than copying what Marvel is doing

[Lackey]

I was just as opposed to--Is that Sarah Silverman in your avatar? Goddamnit, it's distracting! :(




I had no idea so many people were fans of hers until I got the avatar.

She's the perfect woman :(

[TheCorpulent1]

I had no idea so many people were fans of hers until I got the avatar.

She's the perfect woman :(
Her hotness always surprised me. Comediennes and hotness just don't seem to mix normally. But I've always liked her stand-up routines, and I loved her in School of Rock. I remember her being in other movies, too, but I can't recall exactly what they were at the moment.

[Anubis]

I think she was in Chasing Amy. I don't know. All those Kevin Smith movies tend to blend together for me.

Is it true she's dating Jimmy Kimmel? If it is I mean, wtf man!?!

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe Jimmy Kimmel has a really nice personality. :)

Wait, isn't Jimmy Kimmel married?

[The Question]

He got divorced around season two or three of the Man Show. I miss that show. :(

[Anubis]

Maybe Jimmy Kimmel has a really nice personality. :)

Wait, isn't Jimmy Kimmel married?

I think I heard him say that she was very very hairy down there.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I think she was in Chasing Amy. I don't know. All those Kevin Smith movies tend to blend together for me.

Is it true she's dating Jimmy Kimmel? If it is I mean, wtf man!?!

yeah theyre dating, shes been on his talk show and the flirt with each other alot and they even mentioned they were dating.

[TheCorpulent1]

If they mentioned it, it's one thing. But flirting means nothing. Sharon Stone flirted with Jon Stewart on The Daily Show a lot and pretty much every woman who goes on Conan's show flirts with him.

'Cause Conan's a pimp. :cool: