do you think reed richards can really cure ben grimm?

[GoldenAgeHero]

i think he can, if this guy can build a portal traveling into dimensions and build an invention on the spot, im so freakin sure he can find a cure ben grimm. seriously all the **** reed has built in the past, really proves that he doesnt have an excuse why he can't cure ben grimm. i also think in new avengers illumanti #1 what reed said was BS.

[The Question]

The thing is, building an inter dimensional portal and curing Ben are two completely different sciences. Interdimensional portal is physics and engineering. Curing Ben is chemistry and biology.

[gildea]

In theory he should be able to. But for the sake of the comic he can't.

Its one of those things you have to let slide.

[GoldenAgeHero]

In theory he should be able to. But for the sake of the comic he can't.

Its one of those things you have to let slide.

exactly. the whole crap about what he said in in the illumnatti special was complete BS. it for the sake of the comics not becasue reed richards can't. his whole excuse is just stupid.

and question dont give me that bs, reed richard have proven in the past that he understand bio and chemistry extremly well.

[The Question]

and question dont give me that bs, reed richard have proven in the past that he understand bio and chemistry extremly well.


When? Because, he's always seemed like a physics guy to me.

[gildea]

exactly. the whole crap about what he said in in the illumnatti special was complete BS. it for the sake of the comics not becasue reed richards can't. his whole excuse is just stupid.

and question dont give me that bs, reed richard have proven in the past that he understand bio and chemistry extremly well.


I don't think it's BS though it's just inconsistant. However it's an inconsistancy we HAVE to live with for the sake of the character as such it doesn't bother me. We can hardly have reed turn round and say "for the sake of the comic i can't cure you" after all can we? (though i conceed they did say that in 1602 but that was a mini so i suppose u can get away with that).

[Colossal Spoons]

I agree that Reed can't cure Ben strictly for story purposes.

[RockSP]

Byrne had a good in-story reason for why none of the cures for Ben ever "took". Basically he wouldn't allow himself to be cured because he subconciously believed Alicia Masters only loved him while he was the Thing. This was way back when Ben and Alicia were pretty much a permanent couple. Doesn't really hold any water in the present day, though.

[Union Jack]

i think maybe if reed cured ben as far as he can turn his power on and off at will would work,we still get the thing in battle mode,but also Reed has fixed him as to being ben grimm again...

[The Question]

It is possible that Reed just can't figure out how to cure him. I mean, the guy can't be smart enough to fix everything.

[Whirlysplat]

He's cured him several times and Ben has got him to reverse it for a number of different reasons. None of these "cures" will work twice.

- Whirly

[Union Jack]

Maybe so,maybe somethings are just meant to be that way.

[Colossal Spoons]

The Hulk needs to be cured more so than Thing.

[Whirlysplat]

The Hulk needs to be cured more so than Thing.


He also has been cured before Hulk 250, first series by the Silver Surfer for one!

- Whirly

[Darthphere]

For the sake of story, he cant. Ben Grimm has to be The Thing, if he isnt hes not really that fantastic and doesnt serve a purpose. And please no Thing ring.

[gildea]

For the sake of story, he cant. Ben Grimm has to be The Thing, if he isnt hes not really that fantastic and doesnt serve a purpose. And please no Thing ring.


exactly.


lets suspend our disbelief people.

[XwolverineX]

He should be able to. But like everyone said before me, that would make fer a sucky F4.

[Anubis]

He cured him quite a few times. Rock SP pretty much summed it up. Ben is the only thing keeping himself the Thing. Ben is a glutton for low self esteem.

[Colossal Spoons]

He also has been cured before Hulk 250, first series by the Silver Surfer for one!

- Whirly
I didn't know that. I'll have to look up that issue.

[GoldenAgeHero]

how would you guys feel on banner being cured of the hulk.

[Anubis]

Eh, never really been into the Hulk to begin with. So I wouldn't really care. Do they become separate entitys or is he like completely cured?

[GoldenAgeHero]

i really dont know, i stopped reading hulk.

[Anubis]

I meant in your version of Banner being "cured"?

I could get on board with the personalitys being separated into two entitys. Banner having to look out for the Hulk who is more of a big child now. Maybe it's already been done, but I wouldn't mind if that happened.

[GoldenAgeHero]

actually the child thing is exactly what i would go for. sort of like whats going on with firestorm. banner teaching hulk had to be beter they would work together. but i dont know what would happen with the grey hulk personality.

[Wolverazio]

I meant in your version of Banner being "cured"?

I could get on board with the personalitys being separated into two entitys. Banner having to look out for the Hulk who is more of a big child now. Maybe it's already been done, but I wouldn't mind if that happened.

I've always thought it would be better if someone made Bruce realize Hulk is a part of him (ala Ultimate Hulk v. Wolverine, though I did write a story about this happening before that). After all, it would make sense since all this business of "curing" him would only exacerbate what is essentially a psychological problem (taking on physical form) but being treated as some kind of exterior illness.

Make Bruce make peace with his anger and then have some Joe Fixit/Intelligent hulk fun.

[Anubis]

actually the child thing is exactly what i would go for. sort of like whats going on with firestorm. banner teaching hulk had to be beter they would work together. but i dont know what would happen with the grey hulk personality.


Well, if were talkin Grey Hulk, then I could see Banner trying to hunt him down because he feels responsible for his actions.

[The Question]

I meant in your version of Banner being "cured"?



I could get on board with the personalitys being separated into two entitys. Banner having to look out for the Hulk who is more of a big child now. Maybe it's already been done, but I wouldn't mind if that happened.



It has been done. Doc Sampson and some scientists made a machine that split Banner into two entities. One that was in the form of the Hulk, and one that was in the form of Banner. banner's personality was transmited into the Banner entity, and the various Hulk personalities were transmited into the Hulk enyity. Banner married Betty, and became a government operative. Hoerver, The Hulk became more dangerous than ever, going on a murderous rampage across the U.S., culminating with a showdown between him and The Avengers in New York. Eventually, it turns out that the two entities couldn't survive seperated as they were, so The Vision used his powers to fuse them back together.

[Anubis]

I've always thought it would be better if someone made Bruce realize Hulk is a part of him (ala Ultimate Hulk v. Wolverine, though I did write a story about this happening before that). After all, it would make sense since all this business of "curing" him would only exacerbate what is essentially a psychological problem (taking on physical form) but being treated as some kind of exterior illness.

Make Bruce make peace with his anger and then have some Joe Fixit/Intelligent hulk fun.

Thats the best way I feel that Hulk should go. At least as far as character progression. I've always liked the Professor Hulk best of all.

[Anubis]

It has been done. Doc Sampson and some scientists made a machine that split Banner into two entities. One that was in the form of the Hulk, and one that was in the form of Banner. banner's personality was transmited into the Banner entity, and the various Hulk personalities were transmited into the Hulk enyity. Banner married Betty, and became a government operative. Hoerver, The Hulk became more dangerous than ever, going on a murderous rampage across the U.S., culminating with a showdown between him and The Avengers in New York. Eventually, it turns out that the two entities couldn't survive seperated as they were, so The Vision used his powers to fuse them back together.

Yeah, I thought so. Thats the problem really. Everytime theres a possibility for growth, they go ahead and take things back to the status quo.

[The Question]

Yeah, I thought so. Thats the problem really. Everytime theres a possibility for growth, they go ahead and take things back to the status quo.



I'm fairly certain that it was intended to fuse them back together the entire time.

[Anubis]

Much like superman's "Death". Okay, I see.

[deemar325]

Read 1602 by Neil Gaiman, his explaination for Ben staying the Thing does it for me.

[XwolverineX]

I've always thought it would be better if someone made Bruce realize Hulk is a part of him (ala Ultimate Hulk v. Wolverine, though I did write a story about this happening before that). After all, it would make sense since all this business of "curing" him would only exacerbate what is essentially a psychological problem (taking on physical form) but being treated as some kind of exterior illness.

Make Bruce make peace with his anger and then have some Joe Fixit/Intelligent hulk fun.


I always thought it'd be awesome if Banner and th' Hulk became to distinctive personalities, sharin' th' same host. Kinda like th' Prince an' th' Dark prince from Prince of Persia 3. Readin' their conversations with each other would be quite amusin'. An' it would be cool how th' dialogue would change dependin' on whom was in control at that certain point in time. :up:

[GoldenAgeHero]

Read 1602 by Neil Gaiman, his explaination for Ben staying the Thing does it for me.

what was it?

[XwolverineX]

what was it?



Just buy it! :o:mad::):up:

[Zaptoitnow]

As far as the original note of this topic, I like Niel Gaimen's answer to the question. In 1602, he had his Reed Richards analogue say that there is something he has deemed the Law of Story. That being that the world above all else is determined by whatever path is more interesting, and tha no matter whether Reed is ever able to cure Ben, he will always return to the Thing since he is "infinitely more interesting that way".

[Anubis]

Oh yeah, I remember that. Beautiful line.

[deemar325]

Gaiman is the freaking Godhead comic writer!!

[deemar325]

what was it?

Zap layed it out already.

:up:

[Darthphere]

1602 was just a great comic all around. I just wish they wouldve convinced him to write a sequel for it.

[GoldenAgeHero]

would gaiman opt for working a comic company exclusively? or is that not part of his thing?

[Darthphere]

would gaiman opt for working a comic company exclusively? or is that not part of his thing?


Doesnt seem like his thing. And if he did it wouldnt be Marvel im betting.

[Anubis]

I don't know. He worked pretty much for DC doing Sandman and other vertigo titles for a long time. He also worked on Spawn I believe. He didn't seem to be the type to move around much. But the guys getting into movies and stuff, so I don't see Gaimen going that route. Unless Marvel can help him get those Maricle Man rights sorted out. Even then, I'm sure he's weary of what these big companies are capable of. Seeing how they've both treated Alan Moore.

[deemar325]

Alan Moore in my opinion screws himself up. The more I learn about the guy the more I dislike him, I love his writting sure. Yet he's kind of a sour puss whiner.

[Wolverazio]

Alan Moore in my opinion screws himself up. The more I learn about the guy the more I dislike him, I love his writting sure. Yet he's kind of a sour puss whiner.

I find that interesting since the more I find out about him the more I love him. Funny how the world works.

[Anubis]

One man's douche bag is another man's messiah.

[XwolverineX]

Alan Moore is an' will always be one of or th' best comic writer of all-time. But everythin' I hear from him just makes me hate him more.

[Darthphere]

Alan Moore, magnificent writer. My opinion on the other stuff is, shut up, get a lawyer and do something about it.

[Anubis]

I don't know. I just think he's bitter and opinionated. years of being screwed over by the big two have made him something of a sour puss. An old whiney fuddie duddy. But when you think about it, thats an accurate description of about 90% of all message board posters. The majority should love him. He's they're king.

[ShadowBoxing]

Reed cannot cure Ben for story purposes, if this were real life and he still could not figure it out, he'd use all his clout as a scientist and rally a whole bunch of biologists, Beast (premiere geneticist) and others to cure Thing if he could not do it himself.

[deemar325]

One man's douche bag is another man's messiah.

Ain't it the truth.

[deemar325]

I don't know. I just think he's bitter and opinionated. years of being screwed over by the big two have made him something of a sour puss. An old whiney fuddie duddy. But when you think about it, thats an accurate description of about 90% of all message board posters. The majority should love him. He's they're king.

Damn your right!

Leave it to a death and mummfication god to crystalize things.

:up:

[Anubis]

Secrets of the universe my friend.

[deemar325]

^ Alright, is Stan Lee really a organic computer whose true purpose is to create an ungodly amount of beloved characters.

[Anubis]

No, he's really what you people call Satan. he used to run hell but he got fired and came to earth and started writing comic books.

[deemar325]

Makes sense.

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

heres a question why can't doom just use his tech or magic to fix his face. i mean if he can steal the powers of the sliver surfer, and the beyonder he should be able to fix some cuts and scars.

[Manic]

heres a question why can't doom just use his tech or magic to fix his face. i mean if he can steal the powers of the sliver surfer, and the beyonder he should be able to fix some cuts and scars.
You're asking us to put logic and Dr. Doom's actions together. Can't be done.

[Harlekin]

Didn't Waid come up with something in how the cosmic rays that power the Fantastic Four can't be taken away, only re-distributed? (like Reed ultimately did when switching Johnny and Sue's powers).

[KingOfDreams]

Curing Ben permanantly would mean the end of the FF as we know it and that just wouldn't do.

[Manic]

Didn't Waid come up with something in how the cosmic rays that power the Fantastic Four can't be taken away, only re-distributed? (like Reed ultimately did when switching Johnny and Sue's powers).
Yep. Shunting the powers out of Ben's body would only cause them to jump into another nearby body.

[BrianWilly]

Didn't Waid come up with something in how the cosmic rays that power the Fantastic Four can't be taken away, only re-distributed? (like Reed ultimately did when switching Johnny and Sue's powers).That is correct. For Reed to cure Ben, he would have to make someone else the Thing. He's even volunteered himself quite a few times. Obviously, Ben would have none of it. And magic in the Marvel universe is just energy like anything else, so Dr. Strange isn't going to be able to come up with a different way, either.

So there you go; a completely in-canon, logical reason why Reed can't cure Ben, without any of that sketchy "he can't do it for story purposes" business.

[Grim Goblin]

heres a question why can't doom just use his tech or magic to fix his face. i mean if he can steal the powers of the sliver surfer, and the beyonder he should be able to fix some cuts and scars.

While not entirely canon, He did get a chance to have his face fixed in Doom 2099 #1. He turned it down however, stating that it was a reminder of his pain.

Like I said, it might not be considered canon, but I can see Doom keeping the burns and scars for those reasons as well as the lesson in patience it thought him.

[BrianWilly]

Wasn't it revealed that the original scar Doom got from the accident with the machine was actually just a tiny scratch, and the thing with his whole face being burned was actually self-inflicted afterwards?

[Colossal Spoons]

^never heard that. I doubt that the initial accident would have yielded just a tiny scratch. That helmet thing did kinda blow up in his face.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Wasn't it revealed that the original scar Doom got from the accident with the machine was actually just a tiny scratch, and the thing with his whole face being burned was actually self-inflicted afterwards?


i saw that in the cartoon, when he first forged his face plate and it wa sstill hott he put it on his face, thus scaring it.

[Darthphere]

Wasn't it revealed that the original scar Doom got from the accident with the machine was actually just a tiny scratch, and the thing with his whole face being burned was actually self-inflicted afterwards?


I think thats how it went.

[Varient]

i think he can, if this guy can build a portal traveling into dimensions and build an invention on the spot, im so freakin sure he can find a cure ben grimm. seriously all the **** reed has built in the past, really proves that he doesnt have an excuse why he can't cure ben grimm. i also think in new avengers illumanti #1 what reed said was BS.
There have been Stories where Reed has inferred / admitted that part of the problem is Grimm. That in a best case scenario, Ben can turn it on and off, but because he doesn't believe "something?" he remains a monster.

Current continuity appears to go back to where Reed can "transfer" the Thing Mutation to someone else who has been irradiated with cosmic rays like they had been.

So technically one member of the FF could have all the powers,....Ala "Super Skrull" or any of the four can swap powers,.. Like Sue and Johnny did at one point.

[Varient]

heres a question why can't doom just use his tech or magic to fix his face. i mean if he can steal the powers of the sliver surfer, and the beyonder he should be able to fix some cuts and scars.
He chooses not to.

His original scarring was supposed to be minor.

Then he truly messed up his face by putting on his metal mask because he wouldn'rt wait for it to cool.

[Elijya]

In theory he should be able to. But for the sake of the comic he can't.

Its one of those things you have to let slide.
exactly

[littleredhat]

I'm in total agreement that both the Thing and the Hulk's problems are psycological and should be cured for what they are.

No quick cures just lots of therapy and mabey some medication.

[The Red Skull]

There's a lovely little scene in 1602 that pretty much sums Ben's condition up:

Ben: Reed -- you spoke of transmutations. Can you restore me to my humanity? I have been a monster too long.

Reed: In truth, I do not know, my friend. The natural sciences say yes, a cure is possible. But the laws of story would suggest that no cure can last for very long, Benjamin. For in the end, alas, you are so much more interesting and satisfying as you are.

("Laws of story"; wonderful bit of Gaiman scripting there).

[Whirlysplat]

I always thought it'd be awesome if Banner and th' Hulk became to distinctive personalities, sharin' th' same host. Kinda like th' Prince an' th' Dark prince from Prince of Persia 3. Readin' their conversations with each other would be quite amusin'. An' it would be cool how th' dialogue would change dependin' on whom was in control at that certain point in time. :up:

Thats been sort of done a few times. Each Hulk was a distinct personality for much of Davids first run for example.

- Whirly

[Darthphere]

There's a lovely little scene in 1602 that pretty much sums Ben's condition up:

Ben: Reed -- you spoke of transmutations. Can you restore me to my humanity? I have been a monster too long.

Reed: In truth, I do not know, my friend. The natural sciences say yes, a cure is possible. But the laws of story would suggest that no cure can last for very long, Benjamin. For in the end, alas, you are so much more interesting and satisfying as you are.

("Laws of story"; wonderful bit of Gaiman scripting there).


Yeah, we discussed that, most are in agreement with this/

[BrianWilly]

Gaiman's interpretation is gloriously genius and should be stamped on the heads of pigeons everywhere...and yet, it's pretty much just a fancy way of saying "this is fiction, apply leaps of logic where appropriate."

I like Waid's interpretation better, wherein you can only transfer cosmic energy and not destroy it, and so Ben won't allow Reed to transfer his "curse" to anyone else. It's a logical, in-canon reason that takes into account all aspects of this universe and the characterizations of the people involved.

[gildea]

Gaiman's interpretation is gloriously genius and should be stamped on the heads of pigeons everywhere


Possibly the best post ever.

[3dman27]

i think its been established tha ben CAN chang at will but has a mental block against doing so

[deemar325]

Gaiman's interpretation is gloriously genius and should be stamped on the heads of pigeons everywhere...and yet, it's pretty much just a fancy way of saying "this is fiction, apply leaps of logic where appropriate."

I like Waid's interpretation better, wherein you can only transfer cosmic energy and not destroy it, and so Ben won't allow Reed to transfer his "curse" to anyone else. It's a logical, in-canon reason that takes into account all aspects of this universe and the characterizations of the people involved.

Waid's explaination works pretty well also.

Gaiman is still genius.

[roach]

might as well cure him since they are changing up the team

[deemar325]

Or let him stay in his ongoing by Slott.

[GOODT!MES]

^Aye.

[deemar325]

hells yeah!

[RockSP]

Waid's explanation seems cool...but then, Ben has been cured multiple times. So are we to assume someone off-panel was Thing-afied as a result?

[deemar325]

^ That could be a good story man!

[Fantasyartist]

I doubt it-and for an interesting reason. In the Thing's own team up magazine Marvel Two In One #50, Reed notes that for a time after Ben's transformation, he would spontaneously revert to human( his body was obviously trying to shed the effect of the cosmic rays that changed him and the rest of the FF) and his appearance had mutated from "dinosaur hide" to the familiar rocky texture.
Therefore Reed conjectures his body is growing more and more "comfortable" as the Thing; he might have been able to cure him years ago but not now. It's a vicious circle: the longer he's been the Thing the more "comfortable " his body becomes making it progressively less likely that he will ever retrun to normal.

Terry